From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Mar 1 07:03:29 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 09 23:03:29 -0800 Subject: Krishna as Vishnu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085141.23782.499178176739315893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 520 Lines: 20 on 2/28/2009 5:04 AM Harsha Dehejia wrote: > Friends: > > I am researching multi-arm images of Krishna. > It seems to be that at some point Krishna ceases to be an avatara and becomes Vishnu himself. > This book will be useful. Matchett, Freda. 2001. Krsna, Lord or Avatara?: The Relationship Between Krsna and Visnu in the Context of the Avatara Myth As Presented by the Harivamsa, the Visnupurana and the Bhagavatapurana. Curzon Studies in Asian Religion. Richmond: Curzon. Regards, Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann From cbpicron at GMX.DE Sun Mar 1 09:35:40 2009 From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Bautze-Picron) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 09 10:35:40 +0100 Subject: Krishna as Vishnu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085147.23782.15207629822217055575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 973 Lines: 51 Not to forget, on the early period: Herbert H?rtel, ? Archaeological Evidence on the Early V?sudeva Worship ?, Orientalia Iosephi Tucci Memoriae Dicata, ?d. G. Gnoli et L. Lanciotti, Rome : Istituto Italiano per il Medio ed Estremo Oriente, 1987, pp. 573-87. CBP. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Harsha Dehejia Sent: Samstag, 28. Februar 2009 14:04 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Krishna as Vishnu Friends: I am researching multi-arm images of Krishna. It seems to be that at some point Krishna ceases to be an avatara and becomes Vishnu himself. A case in point is Jagganath Puri where Krishna is Jagganath, an appellation reserved for Vishnu. A Nepali stone image (?12 th century) that I recently saw shows Krishna with 8 arms holding even a Sudarshan chakra. Am I on the right track? Any help would be appreciated. Regards. Harsha V. Dehejia Ottawa, ON., Canada. From pkoskikallio at GMAIL.COM Sun Mar 1 09:16:49 2009 From: pkoskikallio at GMAIL.COM (Petteri Koskikallio) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 09 11:16:49 +0200 Subject: The 2nd Prakrit Summer School Message-ID: <161227085143.23782.11982072819662163450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 724 Lines: 29 Dear Friends, We are pleased to announce the 2nd Prakrit Summer School (Aug 17-28, 2009). The two-week introductory course in Jaina-Maharastri, held in Finland in 2007, will make a reappearance, this time in the city of W?rzburg, Germany. The Summer School is again going to focus on the Jain epic and narrative material. Further details as well as memories from the first meeting are available on the website: http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/prakrit_summer_school/ Please inform any students who may be interested in participating. With best wishes, Eva De Clercq (evadeclercq at gmail.com) Anna Aurelia Esposito (anna.esposito at mail.uni-wuerzburg.de) Petteri Koskikallio (pkoskikallio at gmail.com) From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Sun Mar 1 16:47:56 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 09 16:47:56 +0000 Subject: Professur in Buddhist Studies Message-ID: <161227085150.23782.15801164370071007481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2893 Lines: 45 k?nnten Sie sich vorstellen f?r unsere Profess Liebe Frau Kellner, k?nnten Sie sich vorstellen f?r unsere Professur in Buddhist Studies im Rahmen des Exzellenzclusters "Asia and Europe in a Global Context" zu erw?rmen? Vielleicht haben Sie davon geh?rt. Urspr?nglich war sie ausgeschrieben mit einem Fokus auf Ostasien, doch hat sich dies jetzt ge?ndert, denn wir suchen nun auch nach KandidatInnen, die vom Indischen Buddhismus (Sanskrit, Pali) kommen. Es versteht sich, da? wir wir dabei auch an Sie denken. Hier die urspr?ngliche Ausschreibung: Professorship in Buddhist Studies The dispersion of Buddhism offers one of the richest historical archives of a transcultural flow in human history and can serve as an important testing ground for theories about the relationship between power projection and cultural flows. A Professorship in Buddhist Studies will be established. It will deal with the different aspects of the transcultural flow of Buddhism in history and modern times; will bring together scholars with a South Asian, an East Asian and a Western focus in this common endeavor; will cooperate in the development of the databases on translingual concepts and transcultural images; and will contribute to the development of teaching programs with a transcultural focus. Qualifications include a strong record of scholarly publications in Buddhist Studies; the proven capacity to handle original sources in at least two of the major Buddhist languages including Classical Chinese; a strong record in Chinese intellectual history; and a visible commitment to cross-disciplinary and transcultural studies. The position will come with a joint appointment at the Centre for East Asian Studies with institutional links to the South Asia Institute, Religious Studies, and Philosophy. Weitere Informationen zum Cluster finden Sie auf unserer Homepage: http://www.vjc.uni-hd.de/ Die Professur ist eine volle (W3-)Professur auf Lebenszeit. Sie w?re w?hrend der Laufzeit des Clusters dort angesiedelt, danach in Ihrem Fall vermutlich am S?dasien-Institut oder dem Zentrum f?r Ostasienwissenschaften. Falls Sie Interesse haben, w?rden wir Sie gerne zu einem Vortrag im April/Mai einladen. Wir k?nnen aber gerne vorher auch noch einmal telefonieren. Ich bin jederzeit bereit, Ihnen bei eventuellen Fragen zu helfen. Bitte z?gern Sie nicht, mich zu kontaktieren. Mit besten Gr??en und W?nschen Ihr Axel Michaels Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels (Speaker of the Collaborative Research Center (SFB) 619 "Dynamics of Ritual"; Co-Director of the Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe"), University of Heidelberg, South Asia Institute, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, D-69120 Heidelberg, Tel. +49-6221-548917 / Fax +49-6221-546338, http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/index.html, http://www.ritualdynamik.uni-hd.de, http://vjc.uni-hd.de, Axel.Michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Sun Mar 1 16:50:36 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 09 16:50:36 +0000 Subject: AW: Professur in Buddhist Studies Message-ID: <161227085152.23782.16830071075563593803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 168 Lines: 9 I am deeply sorry to have sent a private mail to the Dear colleagues, I am deeply sorry to have sent a private mail to the list. Please ignore it. Axel Michaels From pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM Tue Mar 3 12:40:34 2009 From: pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM (Pankaj Jain) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 09 12:40:34 +0000 Subject: Jainism courses in North America and Europe Message-ID: <161227085155.23782.15607681979462467227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2503 Lines: 82 Here is the list of professors who responded to my Jainism query (in alphabetical order of their last names). All of them have offered or plan to offer Jainism as a major part of one or several of their courses. This list will also be added to http://www.JainStudies.org soon. 1. Dr. Christopher Key Chapple Doshi Professor of Indic and Comparative Theology University Hall, Room 3763 Loyola Marymount University Los Angeles, CA 90045. USA 310-338-2846; fax: 310-338-1947 http://myweb.lmu.edu/cchapple/ 2. Dr. Donald Davis Dept of Languages and Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison, WI. USA http://lca.wisc.edu/facstaff/faculty/davis.htm 3. Dr. Hope K. Fitz Professor of Philosophy Eastern Connecticut State University Webb Hall # 356 Willimantic, CT 06226. USA fitzh at easternct.edu 4. Dr. Peter Fl?gel, Department of the Study of Religions, Faculty of Arts and Humanities, School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square, London WC1H OXG, England. E- mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies/ 5. Sarah Hadmack Windward Community College University of Hawaii minnis at hawaii.edu 6. Andrea Jain, Doctoral Candidate, Dept. of Religious Studies, Rice University Houston, TX 77005-1892, arjain at rice.edu 7. Dr. Pankaj Jain Department of Religious Studies North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC. USA pankajaindia at gmail.com http://www.IndicUniversity.org 8. Dr. Karen Lang Professor Department of Religious Studies and Director Center for South Asian Studies, Halsey Hall University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA. USA http://www.virginia.edu/facultyexperts/expert.php?id=326 9. Dr. Jeffery D. Long Chair, Steering Committee, Dharma Association of North America Associate Professor and Chair, Religious Studies, Elizabethtown College Co-Director, Asian Studies Minor, Elizabethtown College Elizabethtown, PA 17022, USA 10. Samani Charitra Prajna and Samani Unnata Pragya, Florida International University, Miami, USA http://religion.fiu.edu/People/Adjuncts.TAs/Samani%20Charitra%20Prajna.htm 11. Dr. Natubhai Shah, University of Antwerp, Netherlands 12. Dr. Anne Vallely Assistant Professor Department of Classics and Religious Studies University of Ottawa 70 Laurier, Ottawa K1B 6N5, Canada avallely at uottawa.ca annevallely at gmail.com 13. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos The Institute of Indology University of Munich, Germany http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~zydenbos/index-eng.html From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Tue Mar 3 18:29:44 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 09 19:29:44 +0100 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt Message-ID: <161227085158.23782.6279505595185458022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2561 Lines: 49 The refereed proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Sanskrit Computational Linguistics (Hyderabad, 15-17 January 2009) are available (in fact they have been available from the first day of the symposium onwards): http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/journals/lncs5400-5499.html The organisers of this symposium have set a new standard for international sanskrit conferences and for intercultural linguistics by providing, in addition, in a separate publication (41 pages) entitled Ga.nakapaa.niniiyam, the sanskrit abstracts of the papers in these proceedings [plus an extra brief paper (in English) on the Sanskrit Grammar Machine by Gunderao Harakare (1887-1979)], which is published by the Sanskrit Academy, Osmania, 2009 (http://www.osmania.ac.in/sanskritacademy/Research/Publication.html; I did not see publications after 2004 in the list). The sanskrit translation of abstracts, by Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team, is an achievement in itself as it is one of very few attempts to deal IN SANSKRIT with modern linguistic concepts (another more elaborate attempt I am aware of is G.B. Palsule's work on Indo-European linguistics written in Sanskrit, entitled Yubhaata.h sa.msk.rtam prati). A few examples from Ga.nakapaa.niniiyam (2009): morphology (in one sense) becomes: prak.rti-pratyaya-vivecanam; (n.b. "morphology" is neither in MW's English Skt nor in Apte's English Skt) word formation: pada-ni.spatti.h; syntax: vaakya-sa.mracanaa, with explanation (needed because of modern syntacticians' work is often mainly based on languages with largely fixed word order:) vaakye pada-krama-niyama.h; derivational word-generating device (as characterisation of A.s.taadhyaayii): dhaatu-praatipadika-pratyaya-yojanena pada-ni.spaadaka.m yantram; "Questions of linguistic development, of historic sound change ... lie outside Paa.nini's interest" (from S.D. Joshi's contribution): bhaa.sotpatti-vi.sayinii jij?aasaa, bhaa.saayaa.m var.na-parivartana-krama-vi.sayako vicaara.h ... paa.nine.h vicaara-paridhau naantarbhavanti S.D. Joshi, in his Keynote Address "Background of the A.s.taadhyaayii", writes: "Is the A.s.taadhyaayii rightly called a grammar?" The spirit of this question will obviously be missed if 'grammar' would be translated as vyaakara.na. Varakhedi et al.'s solution: kim a.s.taadhyaayyaa.h 'graamar' (bhaa.saa-niyama-sa:ngraha.h) iti naama samucitam? S.D. Joshi: "grammar developed in Greece and Rome is paradigmatic, "rom-grii;s (sic) de;sayo.h vyaakara.na.m aadar;sa-ruupaadhaarita.m dariid.r;syate": Jan Houben From geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR Wed Mar 4 07:31:51 2009 From: geeraae at GEOL.UOA.GR (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 09 09:31:51 +0200 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085161.23782.18164602557549957354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3054 Lines: 67 I wonder, does Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team also have words for coputer, computational, unicode fonts, printer, word strings, parser, recursive, and regular expressions? Personally, if I would have to do the job, I would have considered these terms loan-words, as most living languages do today. Same with submodern items like coffee and train. Alexandra van der Geer Athens > The refereed proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Sanskrit > Computational Linguistics (Hyderabad, 15-17 January 2009) are available > (in > fact they have been available from the first day of the symposium > onwards): > http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/journals/lncs5400-5499.html > The organisers of this symposium have set a new standard for international > sanskrit conferences and for intercultural linguistics by providing, in > addition, in a separate publication (41 pages) entitled > Ga.nakapaa.niniiyam, > the sanskrit abstracts of the papers in these proceedings [plus an extra > brief paper (in English) on the Sanskrit Grammar Machine by Gunderao > Harakare (1887-1979)], which is published by the Sanskrit Academy, > Osmania, > 2009 (http://www.osmania.ac.in/sanskritacademy/Research/Publication.html; > I > did not see publications after 2004 in the list). > The sanskrit translation of abstracts, by Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his > team, is an achievement in itself as it is one of very few attempts to > deal > IN SANSKRIT with modern linguistic concepts (another more > elaborate attempt I am aware of is G.B. Palsule's work on Indo-European > linguistics written in Sanskrit, entitled Yubhaata.h sa.msk.rtam prati). > > A few examples from Ga.nakapaa.niniiyam (2009): > morphology (in one sense) becomes: prak.rti-pratyaya-vivecanam; > (n.b. "morphology" is neither in MW's English Skt nor in Apte's English > Skt) > word formation: pada-ni.spatti.h; > syntax: vaakya-sa.mracanaa, with explanation (needed because of modern > syntacticians' work is often mainly based on languages with largely fixed > word order:) vaakye pada-krama-niyama.h; > derivational word-generating device (as characterisation of > A.s.taadhyaayii): > dhaatu-praatipadika-pratyaya-yojanena pada-ni.spaadaka.m yantram; > "Questions of linguistic development, of historic sound change ... lie > outside Paa.nini's interest" (from S.D. Joshi's contribution): > bhaa.sotpatti-vi.sayinii jij??aasaa, bhaa.saayaa.m > var.na-parivartana-krama-vi.sayako vicaara.h ... paa.nine.h > vicaara-paridhau > naantarbhavanti > S.D. Joshi, in his Keynote Address "Background of the A.s.taadhyaayii", > writes: > "Is the A.s.taadhyaayii rightly called a grammar?" > The spirit of this question will obviously be missed if 'grammar' would be > translated as vyaakara.na. > Varakhedi et al.'s solution: > kim a.s.taadhyaayyaa.h 'graamar' (bhaa.saa-niyama-sa:ngraha.h) iti naama > samucitam? > S.D. Joshi: "grammar developed in Greece and Rome is paradigmatic, > "rom-grii;s (sic) de;sayo.h vyaakara.na.m aadar;sa-ruupaadhaarita.m > dariid.r;syate": > > Jan Houben > From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Wed Mar 4 10:17:48 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 09 11:17:48 +0100 Subject: Publication announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085164.23782.7028647760580028949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 475 Lines: 19 Just published: Thomas K. Gugler, Ozeanisches Gef?hl der Unsterblichkeit. Der Krishnamritarnava des Madhva Sanskrittext mit annotierter ?bersetzung nebst Einf?hrung in Madhvas Leben, Lehre, Werke und Wirken. Leipziger Studien zu Kultur und Geschichte S?d- und Zentralasins 3 LIT Verlag 2009 ISBN 978-3-8258-1140-2 Best wishes, Eli Franco ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Mar 4 23:36:13 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 09 18:36:13 -0500 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt Message-ID: <161227085167.23782.1378125712284053850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 886 Lines: 16 I would think that since Sanskrit creates abstractions with great ease, it would be more reasonable to invent words for these (at least arguably) abstract entities from Sanskrit roots and vocabulary rather than to borrow the English. They aren't like Realien like "coffee." Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent to which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by translation, invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the like, don't they? Allen Thrasher "I wonder, does Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team also have words for computer, computational, unicode fonts, printer, word strings, parser, recursive, and regular expressions? Personally, if I would have to do the job, I would have considered these terms loan-words, as most living languages do today. Same with submodern items like coffee and train. Alexandra van der Geer Athens" From acollins at GCI.NET Thu Mar 5 19:19:52 2009 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 10:19:52 -0900 Subject: Seeking paper proposals on culture theory and contemporary culture In-Reply-To: <20090305T135819Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085181.23782.13554015281766526290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1266 Lines: 25 I am organizing a panel for the Dharma Association of North America meeting in Montreal next Thanksgiving week, conjoint with the American Academy of Religion. I invite anyone interested in presenting a a paper to get in touch with me. The topic is: "Traditional Indian culture theory views contemporary media cultures" The panel will engage classical Indian thinking about culture with examples of contemporary culture in India and elsewhere. Indian reflection on culture may be found in many places, although the specific category of "culture" may not be identified as such. Refining oneself or one's practices (samskrti, samskara) and attaining a higher or better state (sadhana) might, however, be thought of as kinds of culture. Can yoga, tantra, nyaya, dharma literature, rasa esthetics, etc., shed light on what is happening in the contemporary media cultures of India, Europe, the US, etc., and point the way toward what could and should be happening there? If culture is a force within social life that can move persons toward more authentic, truer selfhood, how are we to understand secular media culture, which seems opposed to what we might call the sadhana function of classical cultures? How can culture do its job in the contemporary world? From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Mar 5 09:44:43 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 10:44:43 +0100 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt In-Reply-To: <20090304T183613Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085170.23782.3401100742619757088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1269 Lines: 36 I would like to draw your attention to the Sanskrit dictionary in http://spokensanskrit.de/ It has entries such as computer, computer mouse, log in/out, coffee, chocolade, etc. Best wishs Eli Franco > I would think that since Sanskrit creates abstractions with great > ease, it would be more reasonable to invent words for these (at > least arguably) abstract entities from Sanskrit roots and vocabulary > rather than to borrow the English. They aren't like Realien like > "coffee." Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent > to which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by > translation, invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the > like, don't they? > > Allen Thrasher > > > "I wonder, does Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team also have words for > computer, computational, unicode fonts, printer, word strings, parser, > recursive, and regular expressions? Personally, if I would have to do the > job, I would have considered these terms loan-words, as most living > languages do today. Same with submodern items like coffee and train. > > Alexandra van der Geer > Athens" ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Thu Mar 5 21:19:30 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 13:19:30 -0800 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <5065_1236282968_1236282968_20090305T145508Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085186.23782.10120385165013617796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 512 Lines: 23 In Prof. Tokunaga's Mahaabhaarata e-text: 0120170181/.anantam.bata.me.vittam.yasya.me.na.asti.kimcana./ 0120170183/.mithilaayaam.pradiiptaayaam.na.me.dahyati.kimcana.// Also, 0121710561/ 0121710563/ with no difference of reading. The metre would not allow you to read dahyate with a heavy syllable at the end of the word. On 09/05/24 11:55 AM, "Allen W Thrasher" wrote: > What is the source and context of the saying, MithilAyAM tu daghdAyAm / na me > dahyate kimcana? > > Allen From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Mar 5 21:44:54 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 13:44:54 -0800 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <20090305T145508Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085190.23782.10802145540188571289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 640 Lines: 27 In addition to the MBh and Uttarajjh?y? references provided by Professors Aklujkar and Tieken, the half?verse in question occurs in Ud?navarga 30.44: susukham bata j?v?mo ye??? no n?sti ki?cana? mithil?y?? dahyam?n?y?? na no dahyati ki?cana? and in Mah?vastu III 453.1?2: mithil?y?? dahyam?n?y?? n?sya dahyati ki?cana caturtha? khu bhadram adhanasya an?g?rasya bhik?u?o I happen to have a scan of the Roth article which I will send to Allen in separate email. I wonder why Mithil? figures in this proverbial expression. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 5 18:58:19 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 13:58:19 -0500 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt Message-ID: <161227085178.23782.9254130224667761883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 387 Lines: 6 It's probably not important, but I want to clarify that when I said, "Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent to which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by translation, invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the like, don't they?," I was referring to modern languages throughout the world, not specifically modern South Asian languages. Allen From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 5 19:55:08 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 14:55:08 -0500 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm Message-ID: <161227085184.23782.4113921747803988540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 105 Lines: 6 What is the source and context of the saying, MithilAyAM tu daghdAyAm / na me dahyate kimcana? Allen From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 5 23:35:47 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 15:35:47 -0800 Subject: A pedantic correction (but it's still a good story) In-Reply-To: <20090305T172003Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085207.23782.10250333181938113141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 632 Lines: 20 > > There was another one I heard about Roman Jacobson. When he first > came to the U.S., his English was insufficient for lecturing, so in > his first class he said, "Does everyone here know Polish?" One shy > student at the back timidly raised her hand saying she didn't. He > leaned over the podium, spread out his hands, and said, "Vell, TRY." > > Si non e vero, e bien trovato. > It was my father, Valentin Kiparsky, not Roman Jakobson. The occasion was the 1952 Linguistic Institute at Bloomington, Indiana. The language was Russian, not Polish. And the student was male. ...ben cambiato, anyway. Paul From d.plukker at INTER.NL.NET Thu Mar 5 15:42:56 2009 From: d.plukker at INTER.NL.NET (Dick Plukker) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 16:42:56 +0100 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt In-Reply-To: <20090305104443.20382ikt1re6bi8b@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085173.23782.16326329512841300200.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1588 Lines: 47 See also /A Comprehensive English-Hindi Dictionary of Governmental & Educational Words & Phrases/, by Prof. Dr. Raghu Vira and Dr. Lokesh Chandra, New Delhi 1976. Its enormous (1572 pages, three columns to a page), heavingly Sanskritized, vocabulary is mostly formed, just as described by Allen Thrasher, on the basis of Sanskrit roots, pre- and suffixes. Dick Plukker Amsterdam franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE schreef: > I would like to draw your attention to the Sanskrit dictionary in > http://spokensanskrit.de/ > It has entries such as computer, computer mouse, log in/out, coffee, > chocolade, etc. > Best wishs > Eli Franco > > >> I would think that since Sanskrit creates abstractions with great >> ease, it would be more reasonable to invent words for these (at least >> arguably) abstract entities from Sanskrit roots and vocabulary rather >> than to borrow the English. They aren't like Realien like >> "coffee." Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent to >> which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by translation, >> invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the like, don't they? >> >> Allen Thrasher >> >> >> "I wonder, does Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team also have words for >> computer, computational, unicode fonts, printer, word strings, parser, >> recursive, and regular expressions? Personally, if I would have to do >> the >> job, I would have considered these terms loan-words, as most living >> languages do today. Same with submodern items like coffee and train. >> >> Alexandra van der Geer >> Athens" From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 5 22:20:03 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 17:20:03 -0500 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085199.23782.14762119199659169495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1378 Lines: 21 In the hope of slightly relieving the depression that Michael Hahn's points may have engendered, I'll recount an anecdote someone or other told me about Harry Wolfson, the great scholar of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim theology and philosophy. A grad student had a difficult question and was advised to consult Prof. Wolfson. He went to his office in the top of Widener Library, and explained his problem. Wolfson said, "I have just the thing you need." He climbed a ladder to the highest shelf, reached to the back, drew out a pamphlet, and came back down blowing away the dust. He handed it to the student saying, "You do read Lithuanian, don't you?" There was another one I heard about Roman Jacobson. When he first came to the U.S., his English was insufficient for lecturing, so in his first class he said, "Does everyone here know Polish?" One shy student at the back timidly raised her hand saying she didn't. He leaned over the podium, spread out his hands, and said, "Vell, TRY." Si non e vero, e bien trovato. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Mar 6 01:35:52 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 17:35:52 -0800 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <20090305T180306Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085213.23782.6090656882743681662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 423 Lines: 21 Dear Allen, > Mithila was just taken as the greatest and richest city that may well be the case. There is also a J?taka version of the Mah?vastu verse (Ja V 252.28?29) which just uses ?city? without giving it a name: pa?cama? bhadram adhanassa an?g?rassa bhikkhuno nagaramhi ?ayham?namhi n?ssa ki? ci a?ayhatha Best regards, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 5 23:03:06 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 18:03:06 -0500 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm Message-ID: <161227085201.23782.13775497162361105266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 624 Lines: 20 Many thanks to Ashok, Herman, and Stefan for their illuminating responses. I had always thought that there was an ancient story of some specific king of Mithila walking away from his burning city, but apparently not, Mithila was just taken as the greatest and richest city. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Fri Mar 6 02:15:09 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 18:15:09 -0800 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <20090305225618.E241.HAHN.M@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085218.23782.4067641261706122966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 835 Lines: 15 I would like to suggest, as gently as possible, that it is not a good idea to speak of an "indisputable hierarchy of languages" for Indologists, all of which happen to be Western. I can testify that there is an enormous scholarly literature in Tamil that is important for Indological studies -- and that it is in no way inferior in quality or learning to what is in German or English. The same is true of Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu -- and I suspect of the major North Indian languages. If a student came to me and asked whether she should learn French, German, Tamil or Telugu, I would answer Tamil or Telugu without a second thought. The fact that western scholars are ignorant of what is written in these languages does not mean they are less important or illuminating than what we write. George Hart From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Fri Mar 6 02:25:54 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 18:25:54 -0800 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <334_1236294249_1236294249_20090305T180306Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085220.23782.14390867391323265753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 615 Lines: 15 The association of the remark with Janaka and Mithilaa is rather widespread. Mithilaa is known primarily as an ideal city, not as the richest city (and Janaka as a philosopher king). The reference to burning is hypothetical ('even if Mithilaa is ablaze, even if Mithilaa were to burn ...'). Note the present tense in the reading dahyati. On 09/05/24 3:03 PM, "Allen W Thrasher" wrote: > I had always thought that there was an ancient story of some specific king of > Mithila walking away from his burning city, but apparently not, Mithila was > just taken as the greatest and richest city. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 5 23:42:46 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 18:42:46 -0500 Subject: A pedantic correction (but it's still a good story) Message-ID: <161227085210.23782.15703694614038373940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 907 Lines: 26 Thanks, Paul. I'm virtually certain I heard it as Polish, which as I was explaining to Bob Goldman, made the story even better. Maybe it got transformed before it got to me, rather than by me. Allen >>> Paul Kiparsky 3/5/2009 6:35 PM >>> > > There was another one I heard about Roman Jacobson. When he first > came to the U.S., his English was insufficient for lecturing, so in > his first class he said, "Does everyone here know Polish?" One shy > student at the back timidly raised her hand saying she didn't. He > leaned over the podium, spread out his hands, and said, "Vell, TRY." > > Si non e vero, e bien trovato. > It was my father, Valentin Kiparsky, not Roman Jakobson. The occasion was the 1952 Linguistic Institute at Bloomington, Indiana. The language was Russian, not Polish. And the student was male. ...ben cambiato, anyway. Paul From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Fri Mar 6 03:03:02 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 19:03:02 -0800 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <334_1236294249_1236294249_20090305T180306Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085224.23782.6104884107779385681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 737 Lines: 21 The last sentence should read "Note the present tense in the first half of the verse and in the reading dahyati." a.a. The association of the remark with Janaka and Mithilaa is rather widespread. Mithilaa is known primarily as an ideal city, not as the richest city (and Janaka as a philosopher king). The reference to burning is hypothetical ('even if Mithilaa is ablaze, even if Mithilaa were to burn ...'). Note the present tense in the reading dahyati. On 09/05/24 3:03 PM, "Allen W Thrasher" wrote: > I had always thought that there was an ancient story of some specific king of > Mithila walking away from his burning city, but apparently not, Mithila was > just taken as the greatest and richest city. From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 6 05:00:33 2009 From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 21:00:33 -0800 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085227.23782.7882516365977255124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1131 Lines: 23 I absolutely agree with what George H. has stated here about the importance of the study of Indian languages, especially for obtaining a reasonable understanding of the complex Indian culture. Regards, V.S. Rajam On Mar 5, 2009, at 6:15 PM, George Hart wrote: > I would like to suggest, as gently as possible, that it is not a > good idea to speak of an "indisputable hierarchy of languages" for > Indologists, all of which happen to be Western. I can testify that > there is an enormous scholarly literature in Tamil that is > important for Indological studies -- and that it is in no way > inferior in quality or learning to what is in German or English. > The same is true of Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu -- and I suspect > of the major North Indian languages. If a student came to me and > asked whether she should learn French, German, Tamil or Telugu, I > would answer Tamil or Telugu without a second thought. The fact > that western scholars are ignorant of what is written in these > languages does not mean they are less important or illuminating > than what we write. George Hart From H.J.H.Tieken at HUM.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Mar 5 21:28:28 2009 From: H.J.H.Tieken at HUM.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 22:28:28 +0100 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm Message-ID: <161227085188.23782.642500810219732297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 673 Lines: 25 The line is found in Uttarajjhaya 9.14/242, in Prakrit (but withour diacritics): mihilae dajjhamanie na me dajjhai kimcana. Here (at home) I do not have access to Gustav Roth's "Dhammapada verses in Uttarajjhaya". Sambodhi 5, 2-3 (1976), pp. 166-9, who refers to the Mahabharata and Dhammapada parallels. If you wish I can mail you the references tomorrow Kind regards Herman Tieken ________________________________ From: Indology on behalf of Allen W Thrasher Sent: Thu 3/5/2009 8:55 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm What is the source and context of the saying, MithilAyAM tu daghdAyAm / na me dahyate kimcana? Allen From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Fri Mar 6 06:45:08 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 22:45:08 -0800 Subject: A pedantic correction (but it's still a good story) In-Reply-To: <10347_1236317799_1236317799_c4c5a5430903052136h37605106h57d990728732e9c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085234.23782.18298579094065020017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 450 Lines: 12 I took two courses with Roman Jacobson. The remark I heard about him in both the classes was: "He speaks English in eighteen different languages." The range of knowledge behind the thick Russian accent and the French culture of speaking ("Permit me to say/add/mention that ..."), however, was amazing. He would easily move from linguistics to poetics and would mention even Ananda-vardhana with a good grasp of the dhvani theory. Ashok Aklujkar From hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Mar 5 21:59:46 2009 From: hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE (Michael Hahn) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 22:59:46 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085193.23782.6026941037528153791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 6648 Lines: 115 The recent contributions of Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi and Walter Slaje to the list touch a fundamental problem that affects the work of many scholars working in various of Indian Studies ("South Asian Studies", to be politically correct) and which should be mentioned here, if only brief: The factual existence of a two class system that is caused by two barriers which are indeed hard to overcome --- the financial barrier and the language barrier. The financial barrier is mainly caused by the enormous cost of publishing books on all types of "oriental" topics in the so-called developed countries. The result are prohibitive prices that put these publications out of the reach of most scholars. There are only a few places in the world --- in the North America, some European countries and Japan --- where researchers enjoy practically unimpeded access to the fruits of their colleagues' works, also thanks to a functioning interlibrary loan system. The second factor, the cost of an adequate technical equipment, is fortunately becoming less decisive because of the rapidly decreasing prices for computer hard and software and internet charges. The problem of the high prices of books and journals is at least partially overcome by the laudable enterprises of Indian and other Asian publishers who are on a large scale reprinting older important works and in an increasing number also recent publications, with the permission of the original publishers. And the costs of exchange of texts, documents and papers via the internet (occasionally in a legally grey or even dark zone) have also drastically dropped I have experienced both situations: to work in institutes with fairly well (or even excellently) equipped libraries during two of my assignments at German universities, as visiting scholar in the USA, England, or Japan, and to have to work with a small library and an entirely inadequate budget during my assignment at small university in Germany where I felt to be not much better of than my colleagues in India. The situation was partly made up through the exchange of publications with and the possibility of buying privately at least some of the books that the institute could not afford. The second barrier is the language barrier that was alluded to or mentioned by my colleagues Pandurangi and Slaje. I understand what Prof. Pandurangi has written, however, I would like to add something to his statements. It is true that indological publications are written in an ever increasing number of languages all of which cannot be mastered by a single individual. Scholars like the late Prof. J. W. de Jong who read almost all the relevant languages are a rare exception. And I do not believe that I (or even my younger colleagues) will live long enough to see reliable translations of scholarly papers done by computers. Nevertheless, there is an indisputable hierarchy of languages that are essential for indological studies as they were conceived and developed in the Western countries during the last two centuries. Whether one likes it or not: There are three European languages in which so many valuable and fundamental works for various fields of Indian studies were written (and are being written) that he or she who wishes to participate in this kind of research cannot afford not to acquire at least a certain reading knowledge of them: English, German and French. I readily admit that this means an additional burden for everyone who does not have one of these languages as his or her mother tongue. Nevertheless until recently it was recommended to students of indology at the University of Kyoto to acquire a basic command of these three languages. Sometimes it might suffice to have a colleague who can assist one in consulting a publication in one of these languages. One has also to bear in mind that these three languages were used by a many students from abroad who wrote their theses in an English, French, or German speaking country. Quite often they later kept these languages as their medium of publication. I would like to illustrate the reason why "code switching" is not so easy a task in many fields of humanities by the case of a Japanese student who came to me for one year with the sole aim of discussing with me a limited portion of his Ph. D. thesis, the edition and translation of a rather difficult Tibetan philosophical commentary. After we had translated a major portion of the work into German, after long discussions about the proper German equivalents of difficult terms, he desperately said: "I will never be able to translate this again into Japanese [without spending too much time and energy --- this is to be understood]." And he decided to complete his thesis in German and in Germany. It goes without saying that for specific fields of research publications in languages like Italian, Russian, Japanese --- more recently also Hindi and Chinese --- can also be absolutely indispensable and that one has to find a way how to consult them. One can certainly not assume the attitude: "I don't read Italian/Russian/Chinese etc., therefore I don't care whether the problem I am studying now has already been dealt with satisfactorily by an Italian/Russian/Chinese etc. colleague." Deplorably, sometimes it does not help much even if foreign scholars take the trouble of writing in English, because of the financial barrier. A great portion of Prof. von Hinueber's publications --- which were the starting point of the whole discussion --- is already available in English (cf., e.g., his Selected Papers, London 1994). Nevertheless many colleagues in India don't even know his name. That is what he himself apprehended when he once told me that it doesn't seem to matter whether he writes in German or English because he will not find many more readers for his English publications. Even if it might be difficult for many colleagues in India and elsewhere to get hold of many important books and papers, it has, thanks to the internet, nowadays become a very easy task to inform oneself about a particular scholar, his (or her) fields of research and his (or her) publications. Usually one can find these data on the scholar's home page. And for a very rough translation of titles of books and papers even the internet tools might prove sufficient. I suspect the reasons outlined above might have been responsible --- at least partly --- for the somewhat satiric tone of Prof. Slaje's response, nothing else. --- Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn Ritterstr. 14 D-35287 Amoeneburg Tel. +49-6422-938963 Fax: +49-6422-938967 E-mail: hahn.m at t-online.de URL: staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~hahnm From hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Mar 5 22:05:13 2009 From: hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE (Michael Hahn) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 23:05:13 +0100 Subject: Publication announcement In-Reply-To: <20090304111748.15302kjconnylt8s@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085196.23782.8773249436870864344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2204 Lines: 80 Bauddhasahityastabakavali: Essays and Studies on Buddhist Sanskrit Literature Dedicated to Claus Vogel by Colleagues, Students, and Friends. Edited by Dragomir Dimitrov, Michael Hahn, and Roland Steiner. Marburg 2008, xxvi, 351 pp., hardcover (Indica et Tibetica, Band 36), ISBN: 978-3-923776-36-8, Price: EUR 48,00 This volume contains a bibliography of Professor Claus Vogel?s publications and 15 papers (10 in German, 5 in English), all but one dealing with Buddhist topics (critical editions, translations, text- critical, historical, and literary studies). Table of Contents: Preface ix Peter WYZLIC Publications of Claus Vogel xi Heinz BECHERT Kavya-Literatur in der fr?hen und mittelalterlichen Tradition der Singhalesen in Sri Lanka 1 Siglinde DIETZ Mat?ce?as *Caturviparyasajihasakatha 17 Dragomir DIMITROV Some Remarks on the Rupyavatyavadana of the Divyavadana(mala) 45 Helmut EIMER ?berlegungen zur ?berlieferungsgeschichte des tibetischen Buddhacarita 65 Karl-Heinz GOLZIO Zur Datierung des Ku?a?a-K?nigs Kani?ka I. 79 Michael HAHN The Sanskrit Text of J?anasrimitra?s V?ttamalastuti 93 J?rgen HANNEDER Candradasa?s Tarastuti 171 Jens-Uwe HARTMANN Vasumitras Darsanapa?casatstava: Ein Buddha-Hymnus aus Ostturkistan 187 Konrad KLAUS Metrische und textkritische Untersuchungen zur Ra??rapalaparip?ccha: Die alten Arya-Strophen 199 Philipp A. MAAS: A Phylogenetic Approach to the Transmission of the Tibetan Kanjur ?the Ak?ayamatinirdesa Revisited 229 Klaus-Dieter MATHES: The Sri Sabarapadastotraratna of Vanaratna 245 Mamiko und Yukihiro OKADA: Zum Verh?ltnis des Lalitavistara zur Ratnaku?a-Sammlung: Die Sage von Syama und Ruci (Lalitavistara XIII.[32]) 269 Wilhelm RAU: Der Magnet im Alten Indien: Sanskrit Parallelen zu Plinius: Naturalis Historia 34.42 285 Roland STEINER: Glossar (Sanskrit-Deutsch-Tibetisch) zum ersten Gesang von Asvagho?as Buddhacarita 291 Klaus WILLE: Neue Fragmente des Candrasutra 339 www.iet-verlag.de --- Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn Ritterstr. 14 D-35287 Amoeneburg Tel. +49-6422-938963 Fax: +49-6422-938967 E-mail: hahn.m at t-online.de URL: staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~hahnm From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu Mar 5 18:05:20 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 09 23:35:20 +0530 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt Message-ID: <161227085176.23782.9155733803061153101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4276 Lines: 60 06 02 09 The accusation that an NIA language?depended heavily on Sanskrit perhaps first came from Grierson who noted that?in Bengali and called that 'slavish'. The idea caught up with some non-Bengali linguists like Taraporewala but none among Bengali authors or scholars of any consequence including Tagore and so many writers in Bangladesh cared for the accusation. Most of them do not know anything of that 'slavish' dependence. Bengali has moved way from the nineteenth century stiffness. But Grierson or Taraporewala had nothing to do with that. Development in the districts and improved communication have allowed the influence of the dialects to be felt with native words replacing Sanskrit words imperceptibly. But quite a few post-Tagore poets (eg.Sudhindranath Datta, Bishnu De in calcutta and a number of them in Bangladesh) have been in search of proper words much more from Sanskrit than from any other language for expressing various ideas and ideologies .? Hindi caught up with Bengali a bit late in the day. So the attention on its dependence on Sanskrit is younger than that on Bengali. As to why the concern for over-dependence on Sanskrit is of no concern to the creative writers in these languages and is of non-native origin will not be far to seek. It is because the critics do not speak or write the languages concerned. I request for the indulgence of my colleagues in giving here a gist of my conversation with late Professor F.B.J. Kuiper. That may clarify my point. Everybody knows that Kuiper had a forceful personality and was liberal in his outlook. I had just complained against the way Grierson attacked the influence of Sanskrit on Bengali. Kuiper, who had at first thought that I had been speaking from the point of view of Grierson, asked me if the process had been still alive. I asked him with all humility -- what most of the European languages did for coining terms for zoological species and other new additions in physical and social sciences? I just averred that the dependence was not more than that of French or English on Greco-Roman at least till the fifties of the twentieth century. My words only evoked a heavenly smile from the savant. That was usual and typically Kuiperish. Why not even a word will ever be uttered anywhere in the world about that dependence? DB --- On Thu, 5/3/09, Dick Plukker wrote: From: Dick Plukker Subject: Re: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 5 March, 2009, 9:12 PM See also /A Comprehensive English-Hindi Dictionary of Governmental & Educational Words & Phrases/, by Prof. Dr. Raghu Vira and Dr. Lokesh Chandra, New Delhi 1976. Its enormous (1572 pages, three columns to a page), heavingly Sanskritized, vocabulary is mostly formed, just as described by Allen Thrasher, on the basis of Sanskrit roots, pre- and suffixes. Dick Plukker Amsterdam franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE schreef: > I would like to draw your attention to the Sanskrit dictionary in > http://spokensanskrit.de/ > It has entries such as computer, computer mouse, log in/out, coffee, chocolade, etc. > Best wishs > Eli Franco > > >> I would think that since Sanskrit creates abstractions with great ease, it would be more reasonable to invent words for these (at least arguably) abstract entities from Sanskrit roots and vocabulary rather than to borrow the English.???They aren't like Realien like "coffee."? Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent to which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by translation, invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the like, don't they? >> >> Allen Thrasher >> >> >> "I wonder, does Dr. Srinivas Varakhedi and his team also have words for >> computer, computational, unicode fonts, printer, word strings, parser, >> recursive, and regular expressions? Personally, if I would have to do the >> job, I would have considered these terms loan-words, as most living >> languages do today. Same with submodern items like coffee and train. >> >> Alexandra van der Geer >> Athens" Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Mar 5 23:22:29 2009 From: hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE (Michael Hahn) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 00:22:29 +0100 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <20090305T180306Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085204.23782.699806090425090830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 746 Lines: 22 One would hope that Prajnavarman in his voluminous Udanavargavivarana (ed. M. Balk, Bonn 1984) would relate a somewhat interesting story but all he has to say is: "In order to illustrate that there is a special happiness after one has abandoned even the minutest [possession] without any remainder [the Buddha] spoke [the verse containing the name] Mithila. The ruler of Mithila, a royal seer, once dwelt in a state that was free from longing caused by desire. When he saw that Mithila was consumed by a big fire he spoke the stanza that had been uttered by the Buddha." --- Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn Ritterstr. 14 D-35287 Amoeneburg Tel. +49-6422-938963 Fax: +49-6422-938967 E-mail: hahn.m at t-online.de URL: staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~hahnm From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 6 05:36:26 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 06:36:26 +0100 Subject: A pedantic correction (but it's still a good story) In-Reply-To: <20090305T184246Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085229.23782.11861031039086521407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1275 Lines: 44 I heard the story years ago from Cal Watkins, Jacobson's student, as concerning him and Russian. So there seem to be various 'recensions' of the story circulating... On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 12:42 AM, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Thanks, Paul. I'm virtually certain I heard it as Polish, which as I was > explaining to Bob Goldman, made the story even better. Maybe it got > transformed before it got to me, rather than by me. > > Allen > > >>> Paul Kiparsky 3/5/2009 6:35 PM >>> > > > > > There was another one I heard about Roman Jacobson. When he first > > came to the U.S., his English was insufficient for lecturing, so in > > his first class he said, "Does everyone here know Polish?" One shy > > student at the back timidly raised her hand saying she didn't. He > > leaned over the podium, spread out his hands, and said, "Vell, TRY." > > > > Si non e vero, e bien trovato. > > > > It was my father, Valentin Kiparsky, not Roman Jakobson. The > occasion was the 1952 Linguistic Institute at Bloomington, Indiana. > The language was Russian, not Polish. And the student was male. > > ...ben cambiato, anyway. > > Paul > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From James_Fitzgerald at BROWN.EDU Fri Mar 6 11:42:06 2009 From: James_Fitzgerald at BROWN.EDU (Fitzgerald, James) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 06:42:06 -0500 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <20090305214454.GC6320@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227085253.23782.15559746021647736688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1807 Lines: 39 In addition to the two MBh references already noted, a variant with susukhaM bata jIvAmi (similar Stefan's UdAnavarga citation) for anantaM bata me vittam occurs at 12.268.4. I discuss the way the figure of Janaka is cast and used in a run of texts occurring at the end of the MokSadharmaparvan in the introduction to my translation of the SulabhAJanakasaMvAda in the Journal of Indian Philosophy 30.6 (December, 2002): 641-77. Janaka is frequently portrayed here as the paradigmatic karmayogin king, "in the world, but not of the world," and this extravagant verse is put in his mouth as an emblem of his detachment. Sulabha is depicted as giving the lie to his claims. James L. Fitzgerald Dept. of Classics Brown University James_Fitzgerald at Brown.edu (I posted the above message yesterday afternoon, but it did not go through for technical reasons. Since I don't believe anyone has yet pointed out the third MBh reference, I repost it now. Jim) -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Stefan Baums Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:45 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In addition to the MBh and Uttarajjh?y? references provided by Professors Aklujkar and Tieken, the half?verse in question occurs in Ud?navarga 30.44: susukham bata j?v?mo ye??? no n?sti ki?cana? mithil?y?? dahyam?n?y?? na no dahyati ki?cana? and in Mah?vastu III 453.1?2: mithil?y?? dahyam?n?y?? n?sya dahyati ki?cana caturtha? khu bhadram adhanasya an?g?rasya bhik?u?o I happen to have a scan of the Roth article which I will send to Allen in separate email. I wonder why Mithil? figures in this proverbial expression. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Fri Mar 6 06:36:29 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 07:36:29 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <20090305225618.E241.HAHN.M@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085232.23782.9922834558675920468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4725 Lines: 85 Concerning the financial barrier, it is perhaps worthwhile to take notice of a growing movement towards making access to scholarly publications open (hence: "open access"), rapidly spreading in the natural sciences and also developing into a strategy that many research funding bodies in the West (including Japan) adopt in general. This movement arose mainly in response to changes in the journal publication market: large commercial publishing houses charge growing subscription rates to libraries, which makes it increasingly difficult for researchers to access literature. Open access means ideally that scholarly publications are free of charge and available to everyone - usually in digital format, mostly in PDF. Research funding organizations (e.g. in Austria, I believe also in Germany) have also turned to encouraging (or even requiring) open access publication for the results of the projects they support. Regardless of some problems that this creates (changes in financing models, mostly), it also creates, I think, great opportunities when it comes to making research accessible to colleagues in countries with an underdeveloped library infrastructure. It's worth thinking about in connection with the financial barriers that Michael Hahn so eloquently describes. What I am wondering specifically in connection with Indological studies: whence the "enormous cost of publishing books an all types of 'oriental' topics in the so-called developed countries", as Michael Hahn puts it? Why, for instance, does the set of Oskar von Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" that was recently announced cost 178 Euros? Do the publishers take such great care with editing, layout and design as to justify such a price? (The technology required to typeset books in Asian languages can no longer justify such prices.) And if not: Why do authors decide to publish with publishers when they know exorbitant prices will be charged for their books? Is it because the publication with a major established publisher is believed to make more impact than a cheaper publication with one that is lesser known? Is it the publisher's reputation that people hope will also reflect on the reputation of their books? Is it the expected professionality of distribution, is it a hope for fame? Is it just habit, a lack of knowledge that other possibilities might exist? Curiously yours, Birgit Kellner Michael Hahn wrote: > The recent contributions of Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi and Walter > Slaje to the list touch a fundamental problem that affects the work of > many scholars working in various of Indian Studies ("South Asian > Studies", to be politically correct) and which should be mentioned here, > if only brief: The factual existence of a two class system that is > caused by two barriers which are indeed hard to overcome --- the > financial barrier and the language barrier. The financial barrier is > mainly caused by the enormous cost of publishing books on all types of > "oriental" topics in the so-called developed countries. The result are > prohibitive prices that put these publications out of the reach of most > scholars. There are only a few places in the world --- in the North > America, some European countries and Japan --- where researchers enjoy > practically unimpeded access to the fruits of their colleagues' works, > also thanks to a functioning interlibrary loan system. The second > factor, the cost of an adequate technical equipment, is fortunately > becoming less decisive because of the rapidly decreasing prices for > computer hard and software and internet charges. The problem of the > high prices of books and journals is at least partially overcome by the > laudable enterprises of Indian and other Asian publishers who are on a > large scale reprinting older important works and in an increasing > number also recent publications, with the permission of the original > publishers. And the costs of exchange of texts, documents and papers > via the internet (occasionally in a legally grey or even dark zone) > have also drastically dropped > > I have experienced both situations: to work in institutes with fairly > well (or even excellently) equipped libraries during two of my > assignments at German universities, as visiting scholar in the USA, > England, or Japan, and to have to work with a small library and an > entirely inadequate budget during my assignment at small university in > Germany where I felt to be not much better of than my colleagues in > India. The situation was partly made up through the exchange of > publications with and the possibility of buying privately at least some > of the books that the institute could not afford. > > > From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 6 07:01:29 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 08:01:29 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <49B0C46D.8050208@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227085237.23782.15417867180218018278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3151 Lines: 68 A small note on Birgit's thoughtful contribution: On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Birgit Kellner wrote: > ... > > What I am wondering specifically in connection with Indological studies: > whence the "enormous cost of publishing books an all types of 'oriental' > topics in the so-called developed countries", as Michael Hahn puts it? Why, > for instance, does the set of Oskar von Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" that > was recently announced cost 178 Euros? Do the publishers take such great > care with editing, layout and design as to justify such a price? (The > technology required to typeset books in Asian languages can no longer > justify such prices.) And if not: Why do authors decide to publish with > publishers when they know exorbitant prices will be charged for their books? > Is it because the publication with a major established publisher is believed > to make more impact than a cheaper publication with one that is lesser > known? Is it the publisher's reputation that people hope will also reflect > on the reputation of their books? Is it the expected professionality of > distribution, is it a hope for fame? Is it just habit, a lack of knowledge > that other possibilities might exist? > What Birgit delicately does not mention (apophatic discourse?) is that of course with the exception of the introduction and Table of Contents, and sometimes index, in these Glasenapp volumes, the entire thing is no more than a photoreprint of already published materials (sometimes, in the case anyway of Weller's work, for example, in barely legible copies). In Japan, we find the mere binding of computer printouts. The recent volume on the, if I recall correctly, Samyuktagama, from Sankibo costs 8000 yen, about 70 Euros or so, for a paperback volume that could have been distributed by the author in *exactly the same form* (in pdf, allowing readers to print and bind it themselves) entirely freely. Why? (All the more so for fancy LaTex stuff...) It may be that we need to work at changing the culture of value, that we need to break the link between big-name publishers and scholarly value. Heaven knows, each and every one of us could come up with an extensive list of just bad books published by 'reputable' houses... I would like to emphasize that, like many of us, I *love* books, as physical objects among other things, and I am *not* arguing for doing away with them! But when you've got publishers publishing books with huge subventions from funding bodies, and still charging outrageous prices, (and I confess I am on the board of one such series), this is just, as we say to our kids, "not OK." Maybe, as again Birgit says, the/a way to start is with funding bodies. Already they stipulate from time to time exactly how much 'skim' universities may take from grants. Maybe we should ask them to require free or 'reasonably priced' publication of all works for which they pay in the first place? (Then, how to define 'reasonable'?) sorry--the small note became not quite so small... jonathan J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Fri Mar 6 08:03:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 08:03:00 +0000 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm Message-ID: <161227085239.23782.13230677715797143477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1452 Lines: 32 In the MBh context, this passage refers to the mentally detached attitude of a "(jiivan-)mukta" of the Grhastha type, taking King Janaka as a model. Liberated (mukta) from involvement and internally unaffected by the destruction of even his capital, he nonetheless refuses to renounce the world, remains active, keeping to his duties with a non-intentional mind. For details, see Walter Slaje: Towards a history of the jivanmukti concept: The Mok?adharma in the Mahabharata In: Haranandalahari. Volume in Honour of Professor Minoru Hara on his Seventieth Birthday, ed. by Ryutaro Tsuchida and Albrecht Wezler. Reinbek 2000, pp. 325-348. WS ---------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri Mar 6 02:54:37 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 08:24:37 +0530 Subject: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt Message-ID: <161227085222.23782.1650374076653756585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1027 Lines: 25 ? 06?02 0 As I see it Dr.Thrasher's idea?is?correct. It is the Grierson like surprise and obliviousnress about the situtaion in Europe ie?Greco-Latin :: West European languages (exclude German)??that puzzle me. In any case mine was not an accusation but just a call attention note. Greetings for all! DB --- On Fri, 6/3/09, Allen W Thrasher wrote: From: Allen W Thrasher Subject: Re: announcement: proceedings of symposium PLUS summaries in skt To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 6 March, 2009, 12:28 AM It's probably not important, but I want to clarify that when I said, "Anyway, modern languages differ radically in the extent to which they expand vocabulary by borrowing rather than by translation, invention from native vocabulary, calqueing, or the like, don't they?,"? I was referring to modern languages throughout the world, not specifically modern South Asian languages. Allen Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Mar 6 08:13:46 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 09:13:46 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <49B0C46D.8050208@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227085241.23782.18345310529293413763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3387 Lines: 65 > Why > for instance, does the set of Oskar von Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" that was > recently announced cost 178 Euros? Do the publishers take such great care > with editing, layout and design as to justify such a price? (The technology > required to typeset books in Asian languages can no longer justify such > prices.) And if not: Why do authors decide to publish with publishers when > they know exorbitant prices will be charged for their books? Is it because > the publication with a major established publisher is believed to make more > impact than a cheaper publication with one that is lesser known? Is it the > publisher's reputation that people hope will also reflect on the reputation > of their books? Is it the expected professionality of distribution, is it a > hope for fame? Is it just habit, a lack of knowledge that other possibilities > might exist? I have it from senior figures in the publishing business that the cost of typesetting and production is a small part of a publisher's costs with respect to the overall budget of publishing a book. Marketing, storage, distribution, and advertising form the major expenses. Hence, on-demand printing is being explored as a way of reducing warehousing costs, for example. Publication with a major established publisher certainly does make a difference to reception and judgement. While we all prefer the idea of a pure-knowledge approach, that we will read and value something important and well-written wherever it was published (or in whatever language), the indisputable fact remains that a high-profile press such as Princeton, Chicago, Berkeley, Cambridge or OUP will still carry weight. The production values are high, and people assume there has been a diligent selection and editing process preceding publication. This is especially true for people who are not themselves in the research field, but often have to make judgements that affect jobs, promotion, etc. These high-cost publishers have Brand Presence in the market, and that is where the money goes, at least partly. Brand awareness is an extremely serious matter in the world of business, and it costs to create it and to maintain it. And publishing companies have to provide profits that satisfy their shareholders. As Birgit says, we are living through a huge change, and Open Access journal publishing is going to affect us all directly. It will take some years for all this to settle down into a new model of scholarly production. Bear in mind that although OA is great for the reader, it means the author bears the cost of publication. To have an OA article in a Springer journal costs ?2000 at the moment. To have an OA article in the Lancet is ?400 per page. PER PAGE! These prices are typical of the big houses, Springer, Elsevier, etc. But not all journals are this expensive, and it does seem possible to run an OA journal publishing business on fees of about $400-$500 per article. Nevertheless, what about academic authors who do not have institutional budgets behind them to support their publishing? For scholars in developing economies, OA provides better read-access, but raises new economic barriers to getting work published. There are some business models that seek to solve this issue, but they have not been implemented by any publisher I know. Best, Dominik From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Fri Mar 6 08:19:17 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 09:19:17 +0100 Subject: Publication announcement : on the dating of Kani.ska In-Reply-To: <20090305230354.E243.HAHN.M@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085244.23782.8362779758375590536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3176 Lines: 111 >Looking at the table of contents of >Bauddhasahityastabakavali, and the article of >Karl-Heinz GOLZIO "Zur Datierung des Ku.sa.na-K?nigs Kani.ska", it reminds me that I came across a recent reference on the same subject, which is a detailed study from the numismatic point of view, in a periodical (famous for being the oldest literary one in Europe, founded in 1665 AD and now published by the French Acad?mie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres) which could have escape the attention of the Indologists: BOPEARACHCHI Osmund, "Les premiers souverains kouchans : chronologie et iconographie mon?taire", in Journal des Savants, Janvier-Juin 2008, pp. ?? (on the author, who had published in 1991 : Monnaies gr?co-bactriennes et indo-grecques, catalogue raisonn?, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmund_Bopearachchi Best wishes, Christophe Vielle >Bauddhasahityastabakavali: Essays and Studies on Buddhist Sanskrit >Literature Dedicated to Claus Vogel by Colleagues, Students, and >Friends. Edited by Dragomir Dimitrov, Michael Hahn, and Roland >Steiner. Marburg 2008, xxvi, 351 pp., hardcover (Indica et Tibetica, >Band 36), ISBN: 978-3-923776-36-8, Price: EUR 48,00 > >This volume contains a bibliography of Professor Claus Vogel?s >publications and 15 papers (10 in German, 5 in English), all but one >dealing with Buddhist topics (critical editions, translations, text- >critical, historical, and literary studies). > >Table of Contents: > >Preface ix > >Peter WYZLIC >Publications of Claus Vogel xi > >Heinz BECHERT >Kavya-Literatur in der fr?hen und mittelalterlichen Tradition der >Singhalesen in Sri Lanka 1 > >Siglinde DIETZ >Mat?ce?as *Caturviparyasajihasakatha 17 > >Dragomir DIMITROV >Some Remarks on the Rupyavatyavadana of the Divyavadana(mala) 45 > >Helmut EIMER >?berlegungen zur ?berlieferungsgeschichte des tibetischen >Buddhacarita 65 > >Karl-Heinz GOLZIO >Zur Datierung des Ku?a?a-K?nigs Kani?ka I. 79 > >Michael HAHN >The Sanskrit Text of J?anasrimitra?s V?ttamalastuti 93 > >J?rgen HANNEDER >Candradasa?s Tarastuti 171 > >Jens-Uwe HARTMANN >Vasumitras Darsanapa?casatstava: Ein Buddha-Hymnus aus >Ostturkistan 187 > >Konrad KLAUS >Metrische und textkritische Untersuchungen zur Ra??rapalaparip?ccha: >Die alten Arya-Strophen 199 > >Philipp A. MAAS: A Phylogenetic Approach to the Transmission of the >Tibetan Kanjur ?the Ak?ayamatinirdesa Revisited 229 > >Klaus-Dieter MATHES: The Sri Sabarapadastotraratna of Vanaratna >245 > >Mamiko und Yukihiro OKADA: Zum Verh?ltnis des Lalitavistara zur >Ratnaku?a-Sammlung: Die Sage von Syama und Ruci (Lalitavistara >XIII.[32]) 269 > >Wilhelm RAU: Der Magnet im Alten Indien: Sanskrit Parallelen zu >Plinius: Naturalis Historia 34.42 285 > >Roland STEINER: Glossar (Sanskrit-Deutsch-Tibetisch) zum ersten >Gesang von Asvagho?as Buddhacarita 291 > >Klaus WILLE: Neue Fragmente des Candrasutra 339 > >www.iet-verlag.de > >--- >Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn >Ritterstr. 14 >D-35287 Amoeneburg >Tel. +49-6422-938963 >Fax: +49-6422-938967 >E-mail: hahn.m at t-online.de >URL: staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~hahnm -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From jpeterso at UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE Fri Mar 6 08:26:47 2009 From: jpeterso at UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE (John Peterson) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 09:26:47 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085246.23782.8391792441252747543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2127 Lines: 53 > Bear in mind that although OA is great for the reader, it means the author > bears the cost of publication. To have an OA article in a Springer > journal costs ?2000 at the moment. To have an OA article in the Lancet is > ?400 per page. PER PAGE! These prices are typical of the big houses, > Springer, Elsevier, etc. But not all journals are this expensive, and it > does seem possible to run an OA journal publishing business on fees of > about $400-$500 per article. Nevertheless, what about academic authors > who do not have institutional budgets behind them to support their > publishing? > Just a thought: There is already a small, but steadily increasing number of online, free-access journals for South Asian languages (a number are listed on my homepage, see below - more suggestions are ALWAYS welcome!). Would it not be a good idea to expand this type of publishing in general, in e.g. Classical South Asian studies as well? BTW: I myself am also involved in one of these more pricey series for monographs that have been discussed, so I am definitely not pointing fingers at anyone! But still, at least the journals I am referring to here are all peer reviewed and receive pretty much the same editing, etc. as any other comparable printed journal. The benefits are, of course, obvious - anyone anywhere can print out the articles freely, and since they are peer reviewed, they have (at least in my opinion) the same high standing as other journals. This is, incidentally, a growing trend in linguistics in general, not just South Asian linguistics, and one which I highly welcome. I'm not sure whether this can/should be extended to monographs in general, but at least with respect to journals it is definitely an idea worth considering. But for journals, it's already proven itself to be a viable alternative. Best, John -- John Peterson FB 7, Sprachwissenschaft Universit?t Osnabr?ck Neuer Graben 41 D-49069 Osnabr?ck Germany Telephone: (+49) (0)541-969 4252 Telefax: (+49) (0)541-969 4256 Homepages: http://www.ling.uni-osnabrueck.de/mitarbeiter/johpeter http://www.SouthAsiaBibliography.de/ From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Mar 6 09:00:15 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 10:00:15 +0100 Subject: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085248.23782.3644056840217918894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1392 Lines: 49 George Hart wrote: I can testify that there is an enormous scholarly literature in Tamil that is important for Indological studies -- and that it is in no way inferior in quality or learning to what is in German or English. The same is true of Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu -- and I suspect of the major North Indian languages. I would be interested to hear where any of the topics covered in Oskar von Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" are treated in these languages. If a student came to me and asked whether she should learn French, German, Tamil or Telugu, (...) I take it from George Hart's words that not too many students come to him to ask his advice in these matters. RG ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm From acharyadiwakar at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 6 02:02:11 2009 From: acharyadiwakar at HOTMAIL.COM (diwakar acharya) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 11:02:11 +0900 Subject: MithilAyAM tu daghdhAyAm In-Reply-To: <20090306013552.GC6330@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227085215.23782.8576183550343024993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 440 Lines: 20 Dears, > > Mithila was just taken as the greatest and richest city Is not it the case that Mithila is the city of the philosopher king Janaka? That's why Mithila have special value, and the statement quoted is attributed to Janaka. Best regards, Diwakar _________________________________________________________________ More than messages?check out the rest of the Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Fri Mar 6 11:26:44 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 09 12:26:44 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085251.23782.14850873171286674559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1567 Lines: 45 I don't think it makes sense to oppose the need to read books (or journal) in German and the need to read books (or journals) in Tamil. Take the case of somebody who is interested in Tamil epigraphy. That person will probably have read Iravatham Mahadevan's book (/Early Tamil Epigraphy/, 2003, Cre-A [Chennai] and Harvard Oriental Series 62), which is in English. That person might be interested in reading Oskar von Hin?ber's 1986 book /Das ?ltere Mittelindisch im ?berblick/, Wien, which is in German, because it makes sense to try to understand the languages with which Tamil was in contact. That person might be a regular subscriber to the journal /?????/ [Avanam, Journal of the TamilNadu Archaeological Society, Thanjavur], which is purely in Tamil, because it is the most efficient way to be informed of new discoveries in the field of Tamil epigraphy and because it is edited by very competent scholars. The more languages one knows, the better. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot) Gruenendahl, Reinhold a ?crit : > George Hart wrote: > >> I can testify that there is an enormous scholarly literature in Tamil that is >> important for Indological studies -- and that it is in no way inferior in >> quality or learning to what is in German or English. The same is true of >> Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu -- and I suspect of the major North Indian >> languages. > > I would be interested to hear where any of the topics covered in Oskar von > Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" are treated in these languages. > > > > From dimitrov at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE Sat Mar 7 00:20:30 2009 From: dimitrov at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Dragomir Dimitrov) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 09 01:20:30 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085255.23782.15855013119063075477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1015 Lines: 32 > I don't think it makes sense to oppose the need to read books (or > journal) in German [...] For those Sanskritists in search of a suitable German textbook, it may be useful to recall what George Abraham Grierson has remarked in his review of Bruno Liebich's "Sanskrit-Lesebuch" (1905): "Again, while the book will introduce Sanskrit to Europeans, it will equally well introduce German to Sanskrit Pa??its. If even half-a-dozen good Pa??its are helped to acquire German by its pages, it will have done excellent work." (Indian Antiquary. Vol. XXXV. Bombay 1906, p. 184). Liebich's Sanskrit Reader can be had for free from http://books.google.com. Cheers, D.D. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Dr. Dragomir Dimitrov FG Indologie und Tibetologie, Philipps-Universit?t Marburg Deutschhausstra?e 12, D-35032 Marburg, Germany http://www.uni-marburg.de/fb10/ios/indologie/dimitrov = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 7 21:10:05 2009 From: rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Rosane Rocher) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 09 16:10:05 -0500 Subject: Tamil translation of the MitAk.sarA Message-ID: <161227085264.23782.5055435606423643399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 399 Lines: 14 Dear colleagues, Might any one know if a Tamil translation of the Mitaksara, Vijnanesvara's commentary on the Yajnavalkyasmrti, begun by Porur Vadiyar, which his brother Chidambara Vadiyar, headmaster of Tamil at the College of Fort St George, completed after his death and submitted in 1815 for publication by the Madras government, was ever published? I would be grateful, Rosane Rocher From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Sat Mar 7 15:36:25 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 09 16:36:25 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085257.23782.17042866226793931851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3732 Lines: 85 I have not seen von Glasenapp will myself, so this is just hearsay. I was once told that he wanted his estate to provide scholarships for poor students of Indology, but his will was ?perverted? by the colleagues who were responsible for its execution in order to establish that series. Quoting Jonathan Silk : > A small note on Birgit's thoughtful contribution: > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Birgit Kellner > wrote: > >> ... > > > >> >> What I am wondering specifically in connection with Indological studies: >> whence the "enormous cost of publishing books an all types of 'oriental' >> topics in the so-called developed countries", as Michael Hahn puts it? Why, >> for instance, does the set of Oskar von Hin?ber's "Kleine Schriften" that >> was recently announced cost 178 Euros? Do the publishers take such great >> care with editing, layout and design as to justify such a price? (The >> technology required to typeset books in Asian languages can no longer >> justify such prices.) And if not: Why do authors decide to publish with >> publishers when they know exorbitant prices will be charged for their books? >> Is it because the publication with a major established publisher is believed >> to make more impact than a cheaper publication with one that is lesser >> known? Is it the publisher's reputation that people hope will also reflect >> on the reputation of their books? Is it the expected professionality of >> distribution, is it a hope for fame? Is it just habit, a lack of knowledge >> that other possibilities might exist? >> > > What Birgit delicately does not mention (apophatic discourse?) is that of > course with the exception of the introduction and Table of Contents, and > sometimes index, in these Glasenapp volumes, the entire thing is no more > than a photoreprint of already published materials (sometimes, in the case > anyway of Weller's work, for example, in barely legible copies). In Japan, > we find the mere binding of computer printouts. The recent volume on the, > if I recall correctly, Samyuktagama, from Sankibo costs 8000 yen, about 70 > Euros or so, for a paperback volume that could have been distributed by the > author in *exactly the same form* (in pdf, allowing readers to print and > bind it themselves) entirely freely. Why? (All the more so for fancy LaTex > stuff...) > > It may be that we need to work at changing the culture of value, that we > need to break the link between big-name publishers and scholarly value. > Heaven knows, each and every one of us could come up with an extensive list > of just bad books published by 'reputable' houses... > > I would like to emphasize that, like many of us, I *love* books, as physical > objects among other things, and I am *not* arguing for doing away with them! > But when you've got publishers publishing books with huge subventions from > funding bodies, and still charging outrageous prices, (and I confess I am on > the board of one such series), this is just, as we say to our kids, "not > OK." Maybe, as again Birgit says, the/a way to start is with funding bodies. > Already they stipulate from time to time exactly how much 'skim' > universities may take from grants. Maybe we should ask them to require free > or 'reasonably priced' publication of all works for which they pay in the > first place? (Then, how to define 'reasonable'?) > > sorry--the small note became not quite so small... > > jonathan > > > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > Netherlands > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Sat Mar 7 19:22:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 09 19:22:00 +0000 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085260.23782.1997502808225560186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1847 Lines: 45 > I have not seen von Glasenapp will myself, so this is just hearsay. I was once told that he wanted his estate to provide scholarships for poor students of Indology, but his will was ?perverted? by the colleagues who were responsible for its execution in order to establish that series. Someone or other may be inclined to spread rumours of "perverted" wills based on "just hearsay". Scholars, in particular, may however be interested rather in facts based on evidence: On the will of Helmuth von Glasenapp and its legal execution everybody who so wishes can inform themselves by simply consulting the site http://www.glasenapp-stiftung.de/40jahre.pdf (available 24hours/day; details on p. 3ff). Should the information given there be considered insufficient, further details can be got from the administration office: Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 55131 Mainz Ansprechpartner: Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 WS --------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Sat Mar 7 20:46:14 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 09 20:46:14 +0000 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <1Lg26n-2ISz0C0@fwd01.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085262.23782.7223463149895987745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2299 Lines: 67 Thank you for this clarification, but do you really have to be so offensive? Does it make you feel better about yourself? And no, the information there is not sufficient. Quoting Walter Slaje : >> I have not seen von Glasenapp will myself, so this is just hearsay. I > was once told that he wanted his estate to provide scholarships for > poor students of Indology, but his will was ?perverted? by the > colleagues who were responsible for its execution in order to > establish that series. > > Someone or other may be inclined to spread rumours of "perverted" > wills based on "just hearsay". Scholars, in particular, may however > be interested rather in facts based on evidence: On the will of > Helmuth von Glasenapp and its legal execution everybody who so > wishes can inform themselves by simply consulting the site > http://www.glasenapp-stiftung.de/40jahre.pdf (available 24hours/day; > details on p. 3ff). > Should the information given there be considered insufficient, > further details can be got from the administration office: > > > Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung > c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur > Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 > 55131 Mainz > Ansprechpartner: > Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 > > > WS > > --------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Mar 8 14:28:20 2009 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 09 08:28:20 -0600 Subject: Forwarded Announcement In-Reply-To: <1212045754-5579.00013.00009-smmsdV2.1.6@smtp.bgsu.edu> Message-ID: <161227085274.23782.4992848154871144019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4957 Lines: 111 Greetings to All. I am attaching a message that the organizers wanted me to broadcast. It is a conference on Asian religion and philosophy to be held in St. Petersburg -- in Februuary 2010 -- if you like the cold!! the organizer is Sergey Pakhomov Thanks. Patrick *************** SAINT-PETERSBURG STATE UNIVERSITY FACULTY OF PHILOSOPHY AND POLITICAL STUDIES DEPARTMENT OF EASTERN PHILOSOPHY AND CULTURE PHILOSOPHICAL SOCIETY OF SAINT-PETERSBURG 6th International Scientific Conference of Philosophy, Religion and Culture of Asian Countries (Torchinov readings) IDEALS - NORMS - VALUES CALL FOR PAPERS The SIXTH annual international scientific conference named in honor of Evgeny Torchinov (1956 - 2003), an outstanding Russian researcher of Asian cultures and methods of religions, is going to be held at the Faculty of Philosophy and Political Studies of the Saint-Petersburg State University (Russia) 3 - 6th February, 2010. The central focus of issues at the Readings this time will be concentrated on investigations of ideals, norms and values of Eastern cultures. POSSIBLE THEMES TO BE DISCUSSED: o Ideals of Asian religious traditions o Notions of values, ideals and norms in Asian systems of philosophy o Ideal society and ideal man at the East o System of values in Asian cultures o Oriental cultures in Western countries: exotics or norm? o Western values and norms in Asian countries: adoption and a rejection o Axiological imperatives in the era of the globalization: a contribution of the East o Understanding the spiritual values of Asian cultures in Russia and in countries of the West o Reflection of ideals of Asian traditions in literature and art o Systems of norms and the ideal of an individual in Asian traditions o Asian psycho technologies and norms of ordinary consciousness Sections of the conference will be formed on the basis of applications. The names of expected sections and announced rubricating might vary. As usual, Torchinov conference will strive for creating and keeping a multidisciplinary space for fruitful change of ideas between specialists studying different types, images and categories of Asian cultures; will tend to form new scientific approaches and methods in the field of Oriental studies; to elaborate theories and philosophy of Oriental investigations. Scholars and researchers of different aspects of philosophy, religion and culture of Asia are invited to take part in the conference. Also we invite philosophers, historians, anthropologists, psychologists and specialists in religious studies investigating Eastern range of issues. An application for the participation should be filled in electronic format at the conference's site which address is following: http://torchinov.ru/ru/reg_form/ There is a possibility for a participation in the conference without publication of your paper in the book of collected articles. Extramural participation isn't supposed. Dead-line of applications for non-residents of Russia is September 13, 2009. Besides that Org. committee accepts applications for the organization of round tables, presentations, proposals for organizations of cultural program till the end of December, 2009 Working languages of the conference are Russian and English. By the beginning of conference, we shall have planned to publish and distribute among the authors the CDs with summaries and full texts of papers in format of pdf. Publication of the collection on paper is planned after the conference, during 2010. A paper with size not more than 10.000-15.000 signs (in Word statistics), including gaps and footnotes must be sent for the publication. When designing the article, you must use as a pattern the technical example of execution of the text, which is on the site of the conference. Materials must be sent for the publication till September 13, 2009. Org. fee for participants not from Russia and from countries of CIS is 30 euro. This fee is to be paid on the day of the registration, i.e. the 1st day of the conference. All questions are welcome by e-mail: info at torchinov.ru/ Additional information about the conference is also at our site, see: http://torchinov.ru/ Organizational committee: Dr. Yury Solonin (President) P. Olivelle, PhD, professor (Univ. of Texas, Austin, USA) J. Mc-Rae, PhD, professor (Komazawa Univ., Tokyo, Japan) R. Gimello, Ph D, professor (Univ. of Notre Dame, Indiana, USA) Dr. Victor Petrenko Dr. Alexander Boronoev Dr. Prof. Marina Kravtsova Dr. Prof. Anatoly Kolesnikov Dr. Vladimir Emelyanov Dr. Cyril Solonin Dr. Tigran Tumanyan Dr. Sergey Pakhomov (general coordinator) Our contacts: Post address: 199034, Russia, Saint-Petersburg, Vasilievsky ostrov, Mendeleevskaya liniya, 5, Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Eastern Philosophy and Culture, room 110. Tel.: 7-812-328-9421 (additional 1852). E-mail: info at torchinov.ru Site: http://torchinov.ru From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sun Mar 8 14:24:33 2009 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 09 10:24:33 -0400 Subject: OFFLIST -- Re: Forwarded Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085276.23782.5727425920121420148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 5485 Lines: 126 Dear Dr. Olivelle, I noticed that the English language version of the "Registration Page" is actually still in Russian. See: http://torchinov.ru/en/reg_form Since you are listed as a member of the organizational committee, I thought I would pass this on to you. best wishes, Paul Hackett Columbia University Quoting Patrick Olivelle : > Greetings to All. I am attaching a message that the organizers wanted > me to broadcast. It is a conference on Asian religion and philosophy to > be held in St. Petersburg -- in Februuary 2010 -- if you like the > cold!! the organizer is Sergey Pakhomov > > Thanks. > > Patrick > > *************** > > SAINT-PETERSBURG STATE UNIVERSITY > FACULTY OF PHILOSOPHY AND POLITICAL STUDIES > DEPARTMENT OF EASTERN PHILOSOPHY AND CULTURE > PHILOSOPHICAL SOCIETY OF SAINT-PETERSBURG > > 6th International Scientific Conference of Philosophy, Religion and > Culture of Asian Countries (Torchinov readings) > IDEALS - NORMS - VALUES > > CALL FOR PAPERS > > The SIXTH annual international scientific conference named in honor of > Evgeny Torchinov (1956 - 2003), an outstanding Russian researcher of > Asian cultures and methods of religions, is going to be held at the > Faculty of Philosophy and Political Studies of the Saint-Petersburg > State University (Russia) 3 - 6th February, 2010. > The central focus of issues at the Readings this time will be > concentrated on investigations of ideals, norms and values of Eastern > cultures. > POSSIBLE THEMES TO BE DISCUSSED: > o Ideals of Asian religious traditions > o Notions of values, ideals and norms in Asian systems of philosophy > o Ideal society and ideal man at the East > o System of values in Asian cultures > o Oriental cultures in Western countries: exotics or norm? > o Western values and norms in Asian countries: adoption and a rejection > o Axiological imperatives in the era of the globalization: a > contribution of the East > o Understanding the spiritual values of Asian cultures in Russia and in > countries of the West > o Reflection of ideals of Asian traditions in literature and art > o Systems of norms and the ideal of an individual in Asian traditions > o Asian psycho technologies and norms of ordinary consciousness > Sections of the conference will be formed on the basis of applications. > The names of expected sections and announced rubricating might vary. > As usual, Torchinov conference will strive for creating and keeping a > multidisciplinary space for fruitful change of ideas between > specialists studying different types, images and categories of Asian > cultures; will tend to form new scientific approaches and methods in > the field of Oriental studies; to elaborate theories and philosophy of > Oriental investigations. > Scholars and researchers of different aspects of philosophy, religion > and culture of Asia are invited to take part in the conference. Also we > invite philosophers, historians, anthropologists, psychologists and > specialists in religious studies investigating Eastern range of issues. > An application for the participation should be filled in electronic > format at the conference's site which address is following: > http://torchinov.ru/ru/reg_form/ There is a possibility for a > participation in the conference without publication of your paper in > the book of collected articles. Extramural participation isn't supposed. > Dead-line of applications for non-residents of Russia is September 13, 2009. > Besides that Org. committee accepts applications for the organization > of round tables, presentations, proposals for organizations of cultural > program till the end of December, 2009 > Working languages of the conference are Russian and English. > > By the beginning of conference, we shall have planned to publish and > distribute among the authors the CDs with summaries and full texts of > papers in format of pdf. Publication of the collection on paper is > planned after the conference, during 2010. A paper with size not more > than 10.000-15.000 signs (in Word statistics), including gaps and > footnotes must be sent for the publication. When designing the article, > you must use as a pattern the technical example of execution of the > text, which is on the site of the conference. Materials must be sent > for the publication till September 13, 2009. > Org. fee for participants not from Russia and from countries of CIS is > 30 euro. This fee is to be paid on the day of the registration, i.e. > the 1st day of the conference. > All questions are welcome by e-mail: info at torchinov.ru/ Additional > information about the conference is also at our site, see: > http://torchinov.ru/ > > Organizational committee: > > Dr. Yury Solonin (President) > P. Olivelle, PhD, professor (Univ. of Texas, Austin, USA) > J. Mc-Rae, PhD, professor (Komazawa Univ., Tokyo, Japan) > R. Gimello, Ph D, professor (Univ. of Notre Dame, Indiana, USA) > Dr. Victor Petrenko > Dr. Alexander Boronoev > Dr. Prof. Marina Kravtsova > Dr. Prof. Anatoly Kolesnikov > Dr. Vladimir Emelyanov > Dr. Cyril Solonin > Dr. Tigran Tumanyan > Dr. Sergey Pakhomov (general coordinator) > > Our contacts: > Post address: 199034, Russia, Saint-Petersburg, Vasilievsky ostrov, > Mendeleevskaya liniya, 5, Faculty of Philosophy, Department of Eastern > Philosophy and Culture, room 110. > Tel.: 7-812-328-9421 (additional 1852). > E-mail: info at torchinov.ru > Site: http://torchinov.ru From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Sun Mar 8 06:37:24 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 09 12:07:24 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_CALL_FOR_SUPPORT>_SARIT:_Search_and_Retrieval_of__Indic_Texts______________=E2=80=93_Future_Development_(Wujastyk/Mahoney)?= In-Reply-To: <1236474754.24334.304.camel@proliant> Message-ID: <161227085269.23782.12175521497256573163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 923 Lines: 45 > > > > > 8.3.09 > > Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, > International Institute of Asian Studies, > Nonnensteeg 1-3, > 2311 VJ Leiden, > The Netherlands > > > > Dear Dr. Wujastyk, > > > I am writing this letter to express my support for your SARIT proposal: > ``SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts ? Future Development''. I > have used/plan to use the material available through the INDOLOGY web > site and the SARIT web application to advance my work on [RESEARCH > TOPIC]. I look forward to using the expanded version of SARIT. > > > > > The aims of your proposal will greatly enhance such efforts by enabling > me to use SARIT for textual and philological research. I wish you > success in these endeavours. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi > Head, Dept of Darshanas, > Yoganandacharya Bhavan, > Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post > Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. > From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Sun Mar 8 06:39:11 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 09 12:09:11 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_CALL_FOR_SUPPORT>_SARIT:_Search_and_Retrieval_of__Indic_Texts______________=E2=80=93_Future_Development_(Wujastyk/Mahoney)?= In-Reply-To: <965fdc5f0903072237m39cd73bqf399f78b2da55e5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085271.23782.13829770896397297686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 291 Lines: 13 I sincerely apolagise for sending the letter supposed to be sent to Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, sorry veeranarayana Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Sun Mar 8 01:12:35 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 09 14:12:35 +1300 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?CALL_FOR_SUPPORT>_SARIT:_Search_and_Retrieval_of_Indic_Texts______________=E2=80=93_Future_Development_(Wujastyk/Mahoney)?= Message-ID: <161227085267.23782.10831686276653979056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3244 Lines: 134 [Apologies for cross posting] Dear Colleagues, We are submitting a proposal to The British Association for South Asian Studies (BASAS) to request funding to increase the number of texts available through the `SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts' web application: http://sarit.indology.info/top.shtml To strengthen our proposal we are requesting letters of support from our users. We intend to increase the number of Indic texts included in the SARIT database, initially focusing on many of the texts generously contributed by the Kyoto scholars: http://www.cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/sanskrit/ Your letters of support are important for our proposal. They will give members of The BASAS Council a sense of the scale and scope of the user community of the INDOLOGY web site, and especially of SARIT. The BASAS Council members will make their funding decision on the basis of the following criteria: why you believe the INDOLOGY site and the SARIT Project are needed; and why you believe they are significant. We enclose below a sample letter of support. Please add a few sentences to this letter to indicate specifically how you or your students use or plan to use SARIT. After completing the letter could you please print it on your institution's letterhead and sign it. You can then: 1.) mail, or 2.) scan and email, or 3.) fax the letter as indicated below. ** Please note that the deadline for our proposal to The BASAS Council is Monday the 16th March, so please send your letters of support to us by Friday the 13th of March. ** 1.) Send your completed signed letter by ordinary mail to: Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, International Institute of Asian Studies, Nonnensteeg 1-3, 2311 VJ Leiden, The Netherlands 2.) Scan your signed letter and email it to: Dominik WUJASTYK 3.) Fax your signed letter attention Dominik WUJASTYK to: +31-71-5274162 Thank you very much in advance for your help. With kind regards, Dominik WUJASTYK Richard MAHONEY ************* Begin Letter ************* [DATE] Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, International Institute of Asian Studies, Nonnensteeg 1-3, 2311 VJ Leiden, The Netherlands Dear Dr. Wujastyk, I am writing this letter to express my support for your SARIT proposal: ``SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts ? Future Development''. I have used/plan to use the material available through the INDOLOGY web site and the SARIT web application to advance my work on [RESEARCH TOPIC]. I look forward to using the expanded version of SARIT. [Optional: EXAMPLE USES OF THE INDOLOGY WEB SITE AND SARIT IN TEACHING AND RESEARCH] The aims of your proposal will greatly enhance such efforts by enabling me to use SARIT for textual and philological research. I wish you success in these endeavours. Sincerely, [NAME TITLE ADDRESS] ************* End Letter ************* -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Sun Mar 8 23:58:34 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 00:58:34 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <1Lg26n-2ISz0C0@fwd01.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085278.23782.17022581682076139543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2825 Lines: 76 I am now able to be a bit more precise about the source of the hearsay about Glasenapp?s wishes not being respected by the Glasenapp Foundation. It comes from a student of Paul Thieme, who heard it directly from Thieme himself. This does not make the hearsay true, but I also see no reason for them to make up such a story. As Dharmakirti said of the Buddha: vaiphalyaad vakti naan.r.nam. If Prof. Slaje has seen von Glasenapp?s will, perhaps he should tell us so, and if he hasn?t, he should not pretend to know what?s in it. The official homepage of the Glasenapp Foundation, to which he refers and in which the will is not quoted, is immaterial to the matter. Best wishes, Eli Franco Quoting Walter Slaje : >> I have not seen von Glasenapp will myself, so this is just hearsay. I > was once told that he wanted his estate to provide scholarships for > poor students of Indology, but his will was ?perverted? by the > colleagues who were responsible for its execution in order to > establish that series. > > Someone or other may be inclined to spread rumours of "perverted" > wills based on "just hearsay". Scholars, in particular, may however > be interested rather in facts based on evidence: On the will of > Helmuth von Glasenapp and its legal execution everybody who so > wishes can inform themselves by simply consulting the site > http://www.glasenapp-stiftung.de/40jahre.pdf (available 24hours/day; > details on p. 3ff). > Should the information given there be considered insufficient, > further details can be got from the administration office: > > > Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung > c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur > Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 > 55131 Mainz > Ansprechpartner: > Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 > > > WS > > --------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Mar 9 08:19:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 08:19:00 +0000 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085281.23782.1823466663225783140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1751 Lines: 42 Would-be investigators are invited to accept my initial suggestion (repeated, I am afraid, again in vain) by starting to make their inquiries with the contact person of the HvG-Foundation: > > Should the information given there be considered insufficient, > > further details can be got from the administration office: > > Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung > > c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur > > Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 > > 55131 Mainz > > Ansprechpartner: > > Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 > > WS The list must not serve as a platform for insinuations, and detective games are better lived out in a private sphere. I am really sorry to say that - being under constant deadline pressure - I am forced to establish priorities and can no longer participate in pointless discussions. I have no time to mount Prof. Franco's hobbyhorse, but take it he feels happy enough being on it alone. ---------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK Mon Mar 9 10:38:49 2009 From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 10:38:49 +0000 Subject: Conference announcement: 22-23 May, Cambridge University Message-ID: <161227085283.23782.5807352615315309685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 923 Lines: 35 Dear friends and colleagues, I'm delighted to announce the upcoming workshop Bilingual Discourse and Cross-cultural Fertilisation: Sanskrit and Tamil in Mediaeval India, to be held at Wolfson College, Cambridge University 22 and 23 May, 2009. The workshop will be convened by Dr. Vincenzo Vergiani (Cambridge) and myself, and is possible thanks to the financial support of the British Academy. Details of the workshop, including (most of) the participants' abstracts can be found at the following URL: http://www.ames.cam.ac.uk/news_events/sanskrit-tamil-mediaeval-india.htm Not all of the abstracts are as yet posted (including both of the convenors'!) so please check back as the date draws nearer. All are welcome to attend, Best, Whitney -- Dr. Whitney Cox Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 9 10:05:15 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 11:05:15 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Correction_of_postal_address_(was:_Re:_CALL_FOR_SUPPORT>_SARIT:______________Search_and_Retrieval_of_Indic_Texts_=E2=80=93_Future______________Development_(Wujastyk/Mahoney))?= In-Reply-To: <1236474754.24334.304.camel@proliant> Message-ID: <161227085285.23782.10962051933129831913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3448 Lines: 153 Dear Colleagues, If you wish to send a letter of support by post, kindly use this address: Dr Dominik Wujastyk, International Institute for Asian Studies, P.O. Box 9515 2300RA Leiden The Netherlands Rather than the "Nonnensteeg" address given in the original announcement. Many thanks, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Sun, 8 Mar 2009, Richard MAHONEY wrote: > [Apologies for cross posting] > > > Dear Colleagues, > > We are submitting a proposal to The British Association for South Asian > Studies (BASAS) to request funding to increase the number of texts > available through the `SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts' web > application: > > http://sarit.indology.info/top.shtml > > To strengthen our proposal we are requesting letters of support from > our users. We intend to increase the number of Indic texts included in > the SARIT database, initially focusing on many of the texts generously > contributed by the Kyoto scholars: > > http://www.cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/sanskrit/ > > Your letters of support are important for our proposal. They will give > members of The BASAS Council a sense of the scale and scope of the user > community of the INDOLOGY web site, and especially of SARIT. The BASAS > Council members will make their funding decision on the basis of the > following criteria: why you believe the INDOLOGY site and the SARIT > Project are needed; and why you believe they are significant. > > We enclose below a sample letter of support. Please add a few sentences > to this letter to indicate specifically how you or your students use or > plan to use SARIT. After completing the letter could you please print > it on your institution's letterhead and sign it. You can then: > > 1.) mail, or > > 2.) scan and email, or > > 3.) fax the letter as indicated below. > > > ** Please note that the deadline for our proposal to The BASAS Council > is Monday the 16th March, so please send your letters of support to us > by Friday the 13th of March. ** > > > 1.) Send your completed signed letter by ordinary mail to: > > Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, > International Institute of Asian Studies, > Nonnensteeg 1-3, > 2311 VJ Leiden, > The Netherlands > > > 2.) Scan your signed letter and email it to: > > Dominik WUJASTYK > > > 3.) Fax your signed letter attention Dominik WUJASTYK to: > > +31-71-5274162 > > > Thank you very much in advance for your help. > > > > With kind regards, > > Dominik WUJASTYK > Richard MAHONEY > > > > ************* > Begin Letter > ************* > > [DATE] > > Dr. Dominik WUJASTYK, > International Institute of Asian Studies, > Nonnensteeg 1-3, > 2311 VJ Leiden, > The Netherlands > > > > Dear Dr. Wujastyk, > > > I am writing this letter to express my support for your SARIT proposal: > ``SARIT: Search and Retrieval of Indic Texts ? Future Development''. I > have used/plan to use the material available through the INDOLOGY web > site and the SARIT web application to advance my work on [RESEARCH > TOPIC]. I look forward to using the expanded version of SARIT. > > > [Optional: EXAMPLE USES OF THE INDOLOGY WEB SITE AND SARIT IN TEACHING > AND RESEARCH] > > > The aims of your proposal will greatly enhance such efforts by enabling > me to use SARIT for textual and philological research. I wish you > success in these endeavours. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > [NAME > > TITLE > > ADDRESS] > > > ************* > End Letter > ************* > > > > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 9 11:28:31 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 12:28:31 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <33AB24D542634D22AAAD8754278B7094@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227085290.23782.6577343184344482342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3186 Lines: 93 The INDOLOGY forum has no moderator. Once you are a member of this list, you are free to post what you like, and your message is not intercepted or edited before it goes out in general circulation. When you join this forum, however, you *are* asked to read and then abide by the rules of the list, which are posted on the website. See http://indology.info and click on the right, "Scope and Guidelines". See also "RFC 1855", also on the right, for general rules of Netiquette that apply to all internet usage. The INDOLOGY committee's function is primarily to examine the CVs of scholars who apply for membership and to vote on admittance. We are very reluctant to intervene in any matters beyond this. Best, Dominik Wujastyk -- INDOLOGY committee member on duty this week. On Mon, 9 Mar 2009, victor van Bijlert wrote: > It seems this forum is being used to wage private battles. Perhaps the > moderator should discourage this type of discussions. They do not belong in > a forum that is allegedly devoted to discussing purely academic questions in > the field of Indology. > Victor van Bijlert > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Walter Slaje > Verzonden: maandag 9 maart 2009 9:19 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers > > Would-be investigators are invited to accept my initial suggestion > (repeated, I am afraid, again in vain) by starting to make their inquiries > with the contact person of the HvG-Foundation: > >>> Should the information given there be considered insufficient, >>> further details can be got from the administration office: > >>> Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung >>> c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur >>> Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 >>> 55131 Mainz >>> Ansprechpartner: >>> Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 > >>> WS > > The list must not serve as a platform for insinuations, and detective games > are better lived out in a private sphere. I am really sorry to say that - > being under constant deadline pressure - I am forced to establish priorities > and can no longer participate in pointless discussions. I have no time to > mount Prof. Franco's hobbyhorse, but take it he feels happy enough being on > it alone. > > > ---------------------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > ----------------------------------------- > Seminar f?r Indologie > Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften > Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 > D-06108 Halle (Germany) > Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 > Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 > walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > ----------------------------------------- > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Mon Mar 9 12:16:18 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 13:16:18 +0100 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <1LgajU-1cGWeG0@fwd05.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227085287.23782.17769049410346583853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2250 Lines: 62 It seems this forum is being used to wage private battles. Perhaps the moderator should discourage this type of discussions. They do not belong in a forum that is allegedly devoted to discussing purely academic questions in the field of Indology. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Walter Slaje Verzonden: maandag 9 maart 2009 9:19 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers Would-be investigators are invited to accept my initial suggestion (repeated, I am afraid, again in vain) by starting to make their inquiries with the contact person of the HvG-Foundation: > > Should the information given there be considered insufficient, > > further details can be got from the administration office: > > Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung > > c/o Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur > > Geschwister-Scholl-Stra?e 2 > > 55131 Mainz > > Ansprechpartner: > > Dr. Carlo Servatius, Tel. 06131 16-2808, Fax 06131 16-4151 > > WS The list must not serve as a platform for insinuations, and detective games are better lived out in a private sphere. I am really sorry to say that - being under constant deadline pressure - I am forced to establish priorities and can no longer participate in pointless discussions. I have no time to mount Prof. Franco's hobbyhorse, but take it he feels happy enough being on it alone. ---------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 ----------------------------------------- Seminar f?r Indologie Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaften Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9 D-06108 Halle (Germany) Tel: +49-(0)345-55-23650 Fax: +49-(0)345-55-27139 walter.slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de www.indologie.uni-halle.de ----------------------------------------- Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 9 12:19:00 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 13:19:00 +0100 Subject: Maurer's Sanskrit course In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085292.23782.13493270037983899699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 599 Lines: 30 It arrived last week, and I'm delighted. Over 830 pages with a newly-added subject index. Since Routledge's decision to reprint this 2-volume Sanskrit course as an affordable single-volume paperback was taken as a result of the urging of several members of this INDOLOGY forum, I hope we will support the purchase of the book as appropriate. see your local store, or http://astore.amazon.co.uk/theindologybooks Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Tue, 3 Feb 2009, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > If bought from amazon.co.uk, the book is ?29.75, with free postage in the UK. > > From w.t.douglas at ABDN.AC.UK Mon Mar 9 14:21:15 2009 From: w.t.douglas at ABDN.AC.UK (Will Tuladhar-Douglas) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 14:21:15 +0000 Subject: Maurer's Sanskrit course In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085295.23782.15945717467733196449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 781 Lines: 28 On 9 Mar 2009, at 12:19, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > It arrived last week, and I'm delighted. Over 830 pages with a > newly-added subject index. > > Since Routledge's decision to reprint this 2-volume Sanskrit course > as an > affordable single-volume paperback was taken as a result of the > urging of > several members of this INDOLOGY forum, I hope we will support the > purchase of the book as appropriate. > Already in use by a fresh crop of Sanskrit students in Aberdeen. Excellent book. My thanks to the list, from my students, for making it available. -WBTD. - - -- --- ----- -------- ------------- Dr. Will Tuladhar-Douglas Anthropology, History: Religion, Ecology Scottish Centre for Himalayan Research University of Aberdeen +44 (0)1224 272 274 From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Mon Mar 9 15:11:48 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 15:11:48 +0000 Subject: Summer Schools in Spoken Sanskrit and Nepali Message-ID: <161227085299.23782.10305025074837778519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 687 Lines: 15 We proudly announce that this year the tenth anniversary of the Summer School in Spoken Sanskrit takes place. Also again offered is the Nepali Crash Course: For information and online applications see http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/studium/summerschool.php Kindly forward this mail to anybody interested and make it known to your students. Axel Michaels Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels, University of Heidelberg, South Asia Institute, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, D-69120 Heidelberg, Tel. +49-6221-548917 / Fax +49-6221-546338, http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/index.html, http://www.ritualdynamik.uni-hd.de, http://vjc.uni-hd.de, Axel.Michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Mon Mar 9 14:58:22 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 15:58:22 +0100 Subject: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085297.23782.10257663322103351650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2756 Lines: 71 On 9 Mar 2009 at 13:16, victor van Bijlert wrote: > It seems this forum is being used to wage private battles. Perhaps the > moderator should discourage this type of discussions. They do not belong in > a forum that is allegedly devoted to discussing purely academic questions in > the field of Indology. > Victor van Bijlert I freely admit that this debate is quite a challenge for me. Actually my difficulties already started with the term "barriers". According to the OED, a barrier is something "to prevent access". Is it to be assumed, then, that some indologists publish(ed) in, say, German in order to prevent access to the results of their research? I also admit my profound ignorance of any number of languages that might be useful for my work. But it never occurred to me to see this as "a fence or obstruction erected [by someone else] to bar [my] advance" (roughly what the OED says). It is entirely up to me to learn these languages, and should I choose to ignore the material published in them, it is my sole responsibility. No tales of domination to be spun here! Victor van Bijlert could have voiced his concern way back when the debate turned to finance - hardly "purely academic questions". He didn't. And neither he nor any member of the committee intervene when Eli Franco started to spread rumors about the Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung, although they could hardly be called "well-considered" (as the INDOLOGY rules have it). So far he doesn't even seem to have considered the possibility that the reaction he provoked might have something to do with his behaviour. It is still a mystery to me how the debate was steered into the direction of the Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung, and I cannot see who expects to gain from this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view. I would have wished for a little more gratitude and respect (if that isn't a forbidden word) for a foundation that has been of invaluable service to many scholars over decades. May it be an example for others. Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Mon Mar 9 16:15:23 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 17:15:23 +0100 Subject: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085301.23782.13792315549211744733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3550 Lines: 95 Let me assure you that I have no private battle with Prof. Slaje, nor with the Glasenapp Foundation, and that I consider the ?Kleine Schriften? series extremely useful, irrespectively of the question whether it was established according to Glasenapp?s wishes or not. It would be a good idea to establish similar series in other countries as well. It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. Best wishes EF Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > On 9 Mar 2009 at 13:16, victor van Bijlert wrote: > >> It seems this forum is being used to wage private battles. Perhaps the > >> moderator should discourage this type of discussions. They do not belong in > >> a forum that is allegedly devoted to discussing purely academic questions > in > >> the field of Indology. > >> Victor van Bijlert > > I freely admit that this debate is quite a challenge for me. Actually my > difficulties already started with the term "barriers". According to the OED, > a barrier is something "to prevent access". Is it to be assumed, then, that > some indologists publish(ed) in, say, German in order to prevent access to > the results of their research? > > I also admit my profound ignorance of any number of languages that might be > useful for my work. But it never occurred to me to see this as "a fence or > obstruction erected [by someone else] to bar [my] advance" (roughly what the > OED says). It is entirely up to me to learn these languages, and should I > choose to ignore the material published in them, it is my sole > responsibility. No tales of domination to be spun here! > > Victor van Bijlert could have voiced his concern way back when the debate > turned to finance - hardly "purely academic questions". He didn't. And > neither he nor any member of the committee intervene when Eli Franco started > to spread rumors about the Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung, although they > could hardly be called "well-considered" (as the INDOLOGY rules have it). So > far he doesn't even seem to have considered the possibility that the reaction > he provoked might have something to do with his behaviour. > > It is still a mystery to me how the debate was steered into the direction of > the Helmuth von Glasenapp-Stiftung, and I cannot see who expects to gain from > this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view. I > would have wished for a little more gratitude and respect (if that isn't a > forbidden word) for a foundation that has been of invaluable service to many > scholars over decades. May it be an example for others. > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > ________________________________________________ > > Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl > Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek > Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien > (Dept. of Indology) > > 37070 Goettingen, Germany > Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 > > gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de > > FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm > In English: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm > > GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm > > GRETIL e-library: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Mon Mar 9 17:46:36 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 18:46:36 +0100 Subject: AW: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085303.23782.11036279130432821290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 389 Lines: 24 On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > Best wishes > EF Dear Professor Franco, since you brought this up, may I ask you to give one example? Otherwise I would have to consider your remark a mere fabrication. With due respect R. Gr?nendahl From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Mon Mar 9 20:09:55 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 21:09:55 +0100 Subject: AW: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085305.23782.9652725721421230600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 733 Lines: 38 I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl?s memory off the list. I am sure everybody had enough of this by now. Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > >> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > >> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > >> Best wishes > >> EF > > Dear Professor Franco, > > since you brought this up, may I ask you to give one example? > > Otherwise I would have to consider your remark a mere fabrication. > > > > With due respect > > R. Gr?nendahl > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Mon Mar 9 22:05:12 2009 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 09 22:05:12 +0000 Subject: PDF dictionaries Message-ID: <161227085307.23782.8426839050520198467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 161 Lines: 9 Dear list, PDF dictionaries of the Ramayana and the Bodhicaryavatara are available at www.sanskritreader.de/dictionaries/dictionaries.htm. Best, O. Hellwig From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Tue Mar 10 08:36:52 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 09 09:36:52 +0100 Subject: AW: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085309.23782.13005891205930002471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1569 Lines: 47 On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure > everybody had enough of this by now. Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. As I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement with Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it in public. So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at least one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the "whenever"-pattern insinuated in his remark. Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: "I have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure everyone had enough of it." Reinhold Gr?nendahl ***************************************** On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > Best wishes > EF From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Mar 10 12:49:01 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 09 12:49:01 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Advertising the job at Paris-3 In-Reply-To: <20090309221255.7D7AC7000082@mwinf2a24.orange.fr> Message-ID: <161227085311.23782.12820640394362207334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1605 Lines: 58 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Nalini Balbir Date: 2009/3/9 Subject: Advertising the job at Paris-3 To: wujastyk at gmail.com Dear Dominik, Given the new rules, that a foreign scholar can apply directly to a job in France, it would perhaps be adequate to advertise the job at Paris-3 on INDOLOGY. Could you please do this for us? With thanks and best regards, Yours sincerely, Nalini. *Professor position at the University of Paris-3 Sorbonne Nouvelle *0751719L UNIVERSITE PARIS 3 (SORBONNE NOUVELLE) 856 46-1 PR Non 15 01/09/2009 03/03/2009 02/04/2009 "Histoire et traditions textuelles de l'Inde et de l'ASIE du Sud-Est" PARIS (Knowledge of French required) Method for applying "Les candidats doivent se connecter sur le site du Minist?re de l?enseignement sup?rieur et de la recherche : http://www.enseignementsup-recherche.gouv.fr, rubrique ? concours, emplois et carri?res ? puis ?galaxie? du 03 mars 2009 ? 10h00, heure de Paris, jusqu?au 02 avril 2009 16h00, heure de Paris. La composition du dossier est indiqu?e sur l?arr?t? du 15 septembre 2008 ? Journal Officiel du 23 septembre 2008 consultable ?galement sur l?application galaxie. *Les dossiers complets doivent ?tre adress?s aux ?tablissements par courrier postal avant le 02 avril 2009 avant minuit, le cachet de la poste faisant foi: Universit? Paris-3 Sorbonne Nouvelle, Service du Personnel enseignant, 17, rue de la Sorbonne, 75230 Paris Cedex 05". * * * -- PGP key:http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/pgp.html Fingerprint: 2323 94BE C35F B7E2 309F BA7C 97D3 1A77 91DA CAC0 From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Mar 11 18:56:13 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 09 14:56:13 -0400 Subject: Advertising the job at Paris-3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085314.23782.6372860035719523369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 375 Lines: 17 Just for fun I tried to find the advertisement according to the instructions provided. It seems one needs a degree in computer science to access it. Best of luck to those who need a job! Stella Sandahl -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 10-Mar-09, at 8:49 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > *Professor position at the University of Paris-3 Sorbonne Nouvelle From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 12 16:10:13 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 09 09:10:13 -0700 Subject: A pedantic correction (but it's still a good story) In-Reply-To: <20090305T184246Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227085318.23782.16841305244535326479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1669 Lines: 49 Thanks to Cal Watkins and Byron Bender I now have a more authentic version of the story, as good as we are likely to get. It happened at Columbia University on the late 40's. The language was Russian, the student was Robert Austerlitz, the teacher was Jakobson, and what he said was "Try to understand!" Watkins did indeed take a class conducted in Russian from my father at a Linguistic Institute in Bloomington, Indiana, but at the time he did understand Russian. What is surprising is that Austerlitz, who was fluent in 13 languages, from Finnish to Gilyak, did not know Russian... As Jean-Luc Chevillard said: The more languages one knows, the better. Paul On Mar 5, 2009, at 3:42 PM, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Thanks, Paul. I'm virtually certain I heard it as Polish, which as > I was explaining to Bob Goldman, made the story even better. Maybe > it got transformed before it got to me, rather than by me. > > Allen > >>>> Paul Kiparsky 3/5/2009 6:35 PM >>> > >> >> There was another one I heard about Roman Jacobson. When he first >> came to the U.S., his English was insufficient for lecturing, so in >> his first class he said, "Does everyone here know Polish?" One shy >> student at the back timidly raised her hand saying she didn't. He >> leaned over the podium, spread out his hands, and said, "Vell, TRY." >> >> Si non e vero, e bien trovato. >> > > It was my father, Valentin Kiparsky, not Roman Jakobson. The > occasion was the 1952 Linguistic Institute at Bloomington, Indiana. > The language was Russian, not Polish. And the student was male. > > ...ben cambiato, anyway. > > Paul From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU Thu Mar 12 16:41:45 2009 From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 09 09:41:45 -0700 Subject: IASS e-mail newsletter In-Reply-To: <20090312153529.sgmc58kbkk8kgcso@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227085320.23782.13155485316918891672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1288 Lines: 48 Dear Professor Brockinton, Could you please send me more information (by email or airmail to my below address) about the IAAS with which I lost contact long ago . 67/1 Ban Pong, Hang Dong Chiang Mai THAILAND 50230 with many thanks and best wishes, > Dear Colleagues, > > Earlier today I sent an e-mail message to all members of the > International Association of Sanskrit Studies announcing the > establishment of a new newsletter (to be distributed solely by e-mail) > and inviting contributions from members. If you are a member of the > IASS and have not received that message (there are some members for > whom we do not have e-mail addresses and others whose addresses are > out of date), please contact me so that I can include you on the > mailing list. If you want to renew your subscription or would like to > join the IASS as a personal member, please contact the Treasurer, > Professor Bruno Dagens. > > Yours > > John Brockington > > > Professor J. L. Brockington > Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies > Asian Studies > 7-8 Buccleuch Place > Edinburgh EH8 9LW > > > -- > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK Thu Mar 12 15:35:29 2009 From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (J L Brockington) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 09 15:35:29 +0000 Subject: IASS e-mail newsletter Message-ID: <161227085316.23782.8961290968879895592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 950 Lines: 31 Dear Colleagues, Earlier today I sent an e-mail message to all members of the International Association of Sanskrit Studies announcing the establishment of a new newsletter (to be distributed solely by e-mail) and inviting contributions from members. If you are a member of the IASS and have not received that message (there are some members for whom we do not have e-mail addresses and others whose addresses are out of date), please contact me so that I can include you on the mailing list. If you want to renew your subscription or would like to join the IASS as a personal member, please contact the Treasurer, Professor Bruno Dagens. Yours John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies Asian Studies 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From H.T.Bakker at RUG.NL Fri Mar 13 12:45:13 2009 From: H.T.Bakker at RUG.NL (Hans T Bakker) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 09 13:45:13 +0100 Subject: new publication (Arlo Griffiths) Message-ID: <161227085323.23782.3203335388730019776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 615 Lines: 29 Mitraani, It is my pleasure to announce that, Arlo Griffiths, /The Paipaladasamhita of the Atharvaveda, Kandas 6 and 7. A new Edition with Translation and Commentary/, has come out. The book has appeared as volume 22 of the /Groningen Oriental Studies. /ISBN: 978-906980-777-5. The book is published by Egbert Forsten, Groningen and may be ordered through the following website: http://www.forsten.nl/ -- Prof Dr Hans T. Bakker Institute of Indian Studies University of Groningen Oude Boteringestraat 23 9712 GC Groningen the Netherlands tel: +31.(0)50.363.5819 fax: +31.(0)50.363.7263 www.rug.nl/india From conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Mar 13 22:56:04 2009 From: conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Frank Conlon) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 09 15:56:04 -0700 Subject: H-ASIA: Carol Goldberg Salomon (1948-2009) Message-ID: <161227085330.23782.7394904309433336624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2591 Lines: 63 H-ASIA March 13, 2009 Carol Goldberg Salomon (July 28, 1948-March 13, 2009) ************************************************************************ >?From Frank Conlon It is my very sad duty to report the death this morning, March 13, 2009, of Carol Goldberg Salomon of the Department of Asian Languages and Literature of the University of Washington. Carol had been injured severely in a bicycle-automobile collision on March 11. She is survived by her husband, Professor Richard Salomon, also of the University of Washington and their son Jesse. A private funeral service is planned. Dr. Salomon was a world-renowned specialist in the language, literature, and culture of Bengal. At the time of her death she held the position of Senior Lecturer in Bengali. Carol Salomon was a wonderful colleague who supported her students and colleagues with intellectual and emotional support. A graduate of City College of New York (1970), she completed her PhD at the University of Pennsylvania in Bengali Language and Literature in 1983. Her special emphasis had been on the cultural synthesis of Bangla culture as represented in the traditions of the Bauls. Among her publications were: Studies in South Asian Devotional Literature, Language, and Culture , eds. Alan Entwistle and Carol Salomon with Heidi Pauwels and Michael Shapiro. New Delhi: Manohar, 1999. "The Bauls" in Religions in India in Practice , ed. Donald S. Lopez, Jr. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1995, pp. 187-208. "The Cosmogonic Riddles of Lalan Fakir," in Gender, Genre and Power in South Asian Expressive Traditions , ed. Arjun Appadurai, Frank Korom, and Margaret Mills. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1991, pp. 267-304. At the time of her passing she was working on a "City of Mirrors: An Edition and Annotated Translation of Selected Songs by Lalan Fakir" The sudden and unexpected loss of this brilliant colleague has left a sense of loss more readily acknowledged than described. Frank Frank F. Conlon Professor Emeritus University of Washington Co-editor, H-ASIA ****************************************************************** To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: For holidays or short absences send post to: with message: SET H-ASIA NOMAIL Upon return, send post with message SET H-ASIA MAIL H-ASIA WEB HOMEPAGE URL: http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/ From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 13 17:03:34 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 09 18:03:34 +0100 Subject: Publications available Message-ID: <161227085325.23782.3616809368443078047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 671 Lines: 26 Dear Colleagues, Seishi Karashima has asked me to forward the information that many of the publications of the International Research Institute for Advanced Budddhology at Soka University are available online: http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/BLSF/index_BLSF.html http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/BPPB/index_BPPB.html http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/ARIRIAB/index_ARIRIAB.html The first URL refers to the volume of Sanskrit manuscripts in the British Library, the second to the Institute's monograph series, the third to its annual journal. J Silk -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Fri Mar 13 22:49:40 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 09 18:49:40 -0400 Subject: more good stories In-Reply-To: <577F54A7-D5E1-4066-9855-868DF503385E@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <161227085327.23782.13146960625258812841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2561 Lines: 56 Dear List, Regarding the good stories that have been told recently about great scholars like R. Jakobson, V. Kiparsky, R. Austerlitz and Cal Watikins, I have an anecdote that may amuse some list members. Some ten years ago I found myself giving a series of talks on Sanskrit and Indian Culture sponsored by the New Hampshire Humanities Council. By chance, one of the attendees at these talks was the granddaughter of Charles Lanman, who faithfully attended, along with her husband, the entire series of nine weekly talks. I was struck by the fact that Lanman's granddaughter, herself then perhaps in her 70's, was very pleased to know that I had been introduced to Sanskrit literature by means of her grandfather's Sanskrit Reader, but also by the fact that she herself had not seen a copy of it since childhood. Since I had several copies of Lanman's Reader in hand [I used to buy up all copies that used to appear in the Berkeley bookstores when I studied there], I gave her one as a gift. This led to an extensive discussion of Lanman's impact on early American Indology, which his granddaughter was eager to learn about. Since I was planning to give a paper at the AOS conference in Baltimore in that year, I promised to solicit stories of Lanman's career at Harvard for her. As it turns out, Cal Watkins was a great source of Harvard folklore regarding Lanman and his [literally] subterranean contacts with Henry Clarke Warren, etc., which delighted Lanman's granddaughter and her family in general [as she told me]. The point is that I think that someone should sit down with Cal Watkins and get him to record all of the Sanskritist and IE folklore that he has privy to. It would greatly enlighten us about the formative period of American Indology. Best wishes, George Thompson Paul Kiparsky wrote: > Thanks to Cal Watkins and Byron Bender I now have a more authentic > version of the story, as good as we are likely to get. It happened > at Columbia University on the late 40's. The language was Russian, > the student was Robert Austerlitz, the teacher was Jakobson, and what > he said was "Try to understand!" > Watkins did indeed take a class conducted in Russian from my father > at a Linguistic Institute in Bloomington, Indiana, but at the time he > did understand Russian. > > What is surprising is that Austerlitz, who was fluent in 13 > languages, from Finnish to Gilyak, did not know Russian... > > As Jean-Luc Chevillard said: The more languages one knows, the better. > > Paul > From rmanring at INDIANA.EDU Sat Mar 14 02:22:51 2009 From: rmanring at INDIANA.EDU (Manring, Rebecca) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 09 22:22:51 -0400 Subject: H-ASIA: Carol Goldberg Salomon (1948-2009) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085332.23782.6501515516064985425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3836 Lines: 78 I just heard this horrible, unbelievable news here in Albuquerque at the AOS reception. Carol was my adiguru. She taught me Bengali for four years, privately, for the ridiculous sum of $8/hour, back in the eighties. But it was enough to qualify me for an AIIS advanced language fellowship, and the rest as they say is history. I have very fond memories of riding my bike over to the Salomon's house in Seattle three nights a week for so long, dodging Jesse and Rich playing football in the living room, and heading for her study to work for an hour. Like most of us I was blessed with wonderful teachers at every turn, but she was the first, without whom I would probably not have proceeded in the directions I eventually did. This is a tremendous loss for all of us; Carol taught an awful lot of us Bangla. And my thoughts and prayers are with Richard and Jesse in this horrible time. Rebecca J. Manring Associate Professor India Studies and Religious Studies Indiana University-Bloomington ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Frank Conlon [conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU] Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 6:56 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: H-ASIA: Carol Goldberg Salomon (1948-2009) H-ASIA March 13, 2009 Carol Goldberg Salomon (July 28, 1948-March 13, 2009) ************************************************************************ >?From Frank Conlon It is my very sad duty to report the death this morning, March 13, 2009, of Carol Goldberg Salomon of the Department of Asian Languages and Literature of the University of Washington. Carol had been injured severely in a bicycle-automobile collision on March 11. She is survived by her husband, Professor Richard Salomon, also of the University of Washington and their son Jesse. A private funeral service is planned. Dr. Salomon was a world-renowned specialist in the language, literature, and culture of Bengal. At the time of her death she held the position of Senior Lecturer in Bengali. Carol Salomon was a wonderful colleague who supported her students and colleagues with intellectual and emotional support. A graduate of City College of New York (1970), she completed her PhD at the University of Pennsylvania in Bengali Language and Literature in 1983. Her special emphasis had been on the cultural synthesis of Bangla culture as represented in the traditions of the Bauls. Among her publications were: Studies in South Asian Devotional Literature, Language, and Culture , eds. Alan Entwistle and Carol Salomon with Heidi Pauwels and Michael Shapiro. New Delhi: Manohar, 1999. "The Bauls" in Religions in India in Practice , ed. Donald S. Lopez, Jr. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1995, pp. 187-208. "The Cosmogonic Riddles of Lalan Fakir," in Gender, Genre and Power in South Asian Expressive Traditions , ed. Arjun Appadurai, Frank Korom, and Margaret Mills. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1991, pp. 267-304. At the time of her passing she was working on a "City of Mirrors: An Edition and Annotated Translation of Selected Songs by Lalan Fakir" The sudden and unexpected loss of this brilliant colleague has left a sense of loss more readily acknowledged than described. Frank Frank F. Conlon Professor Emeritus University of Washington Co-editor, H-ASIA ****************************************************************** To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: For holidays or short absences send post to: with message: SET H-ASIA NOMAIL Upon return, send post with message SET H-ASIA MAIL H-ASIA WEB HOMEPAGE URL: http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/ From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Sat Mar 14 22:47:33 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 09 23:47:33 +0100 Subject: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085336.23782.5888875033536823827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3507 Lines: 89 I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to Kindergarten level. Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; at least I do not remember ever meeting him. Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. With best wishes, Eli Franco Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > >> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure > >> everybody had enough of this by now. > > > > Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. > > I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. As > I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so > much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his > forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement with > Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its > decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he > would rather not discuss it in public. > > So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor > Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is > presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal > interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at least > one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the "whenever"-pattern > insinuated in his remark. > > Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: "I > have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure > everyone had enough of it." > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > ***************************************** > > On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > >> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > >> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > >> Best wishes > >> EF > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Sun Mar 15 09:10:06 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 09 10:10:06 +0100 Subject: AW: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085339.23782.5619458124750216257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3999 Lines: 116 Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his earlier claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest charges. [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I remember them as rather pleasant.] Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to Kindergarten level. Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; at least I do not remember ever meeting him. Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. With best wishes, Eli Franco Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > >> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure > >> everybody had enough of this by now. > > > > Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. > > I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. As > I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so > much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his > forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement with > Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its > decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he > would rather not discuss it in public. > > So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor > Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is > presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal > interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at least > one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the "whenever"-pattern > insinuated in his remark. > > Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: "I > have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure > everyone had enough of it." > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > ***************************************** > > On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: > >> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > >> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > >> Best wishes > >> EF > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Mar 16 10:01:09 2009 From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 03:01:09 -0700 Subject: time to change the tune In-Reply-To: <20090316031204.BUC75839@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085352.23782.5666501096723688397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 704 Lines: 33 I APPLAUD! > I find the use of the Indology list > by our colleagues in Germany to be > tiresome in the extreme and not > to accord very well with the purposes > for which Indology was established. > > If this continues much longer, I, for > one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. > > Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to > settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, > so that those interested in this will have > their own playpen. > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 16 08:12:04 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 03:12:04 -0500 Subject: time to change the tune Message-ID: <161227085348.23782.10623568738413940486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 602 Lines: 24 I find the use of the Indology list by our colleagues in Germany to be tiresome in the extreme and not to accord very well with the purposes for which Indology was established. If this continues much longer, I, for one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, so that those interested in this will have their own playpen. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Mon Mar 16 02:50:56 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 03:50:56 +0100 Subject: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085342.23782.3981491290964230792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 16245 Lines: 335 Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his earlier > claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest > charges. Even this very statement is a distortion or ?fabrication.? I never said or indicated that I am too busy to prove my claims. Dr. Gruenendahl asked for one example (?may I ask you to give one example??) and I gave him one example. He may not like the example, he may think that the example is no good, but he cannot (or should not) claim that I did not take the time to write to him. Further, I tried to take this discussion off the list, honestly thinking that ?everybody had enough of this.? But Gruenendahl knows better. The real reason why I do not want to discuss it on the list, he claims, is that I do not want to discuss the example in public (?I understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it in public.?). Basically he accuses me of being dishonest. But this accusation is plainly absurd. We already discussed this example in public, and Gruenendahl knows it because he himself participated in the discussion. If anyone is interested, they can find the discussion in the archive of the German Indologie discussion group. Evidence for ad hominem argument and cheap psychological analysis was already given in the last message, but if it needs to be ?proved?, I quote: ?I cannot see who expects to gain from this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view.? It is clear from the context that this statement refers to me. The most significant point, however, which should have a broader appeal, is Dr. Gruenendahl?s attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National Socialism. I think the issue is important and want to discuss it in some detail, without, however, being exhaustive. The publication in question is Gruenendahl?s contribution to Gustav Roth?s Felicitation Volume, entitled ?Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord,? In U. H?sken, P. Kieffer-P?lz and A. Peters [eds.], Jaina-Itih?sa-Ratna. Festschrift f?r Gustav Roth zum 90. Geburtstag. Marburg 2006, pp. 209-236. Already when I first read it, I was dismayed not only by Gruenendahl?s occasionally spiteful criticism of Sheldon Pollock, but also by the way Gruenendahl misunderstands and misrepresents his sources, especially in his attempt to exonerate Frauwallner from the charge, made by Pollock, of having been affiliated with National Socialist ideology. Gruenendahl (p. 217) argues (and this is typical for his emotional style) that one would thoroughly misunderstand Pollock?s intentions if one would drag them down to the level of facts, which are a negligible quantity in the age of ?polyvalent? discourse. He states that Pollock does not use facts to determine reality, but resorts to strategic choices and interpretations of the materials to draw maximum attention to himself (!). Had I tried, I could not have found a better way to describe Gruenendahl?s own approach to the topic. I will illustrate the above with ?facts.? But let me first note Gruenendahl?s remarkable lack of sensitivity to the historical and political context. A racist or racialist statement made in Germany in 1939 or 1942 cannot be divorced from this context, and to argue, as Gruenendahl does (e.g., p. 232 and passim), that similar statements were already made by racists of previous generations (such as Gobineau, Renan, etc.) and that it is therefore not evident that these ideas (as expressed e.g., by Frauwallner in 1944) are associated with National Socialist ideology, is not only na?ve, but preposterous. Here are a few examples of how Gruenendahl twists his source material. Frauwallner (in 1944) approvingly quotes von Soden to the effect that only the Indo-Europeans, which are determined by the Nordic race, are capable of creating science properly speaking and states that ?on the basis of our investigations up to now we cannot but agree with this statement? (? ?da? Wis?sen?schaft im strengen Sinn des Wortes etwas ist, das nur von den von der nordischen Rasse bestimmten Indogermanen geschaffen werden konnte? (S. 556). Wir k?nnen dieser Behauptung auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen nur beistimmen.?). Gruenendahl (p. 232) interprets this statement to mean that Frauwallner at least signalized some reserve in his endorsement of von Soden?s statement (?? einen Vorbehalt zumindest angedeutet?). This interpretation of a stereotypical expression (?auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen?) is simply tendentious and farfetched. There is certainly nothing in this context to support it. Frauwallner?s confident perception of himself as a true pioneer of solid philological research into the history of Indian philosophy is misinterpreted by Gruenendahl (p. 231) to mean that Frauwallner stated that the relevant direction of Indological research (i.e., research that is programmatically determined by the aspect of race) was in its beginning?an unsuccessful attempt by Gruenendahl to show, on the alleged authority of Frauwallner himself, that Indologists up to this time had not yet followed this line of research. Furthermore, in his polemical zeal Gruenendahl misre?presents Frauwallner?s hypothesis of two distinct, racially conditioned historical phases of Indian philosophy and inverts Frauwallner?s judgement about the second period: he presents Frauwallner?s reference to the peak (occurring in the first half of the second millennium) of the development of Indian philosophy in its *second*, clearly inferior phase as the view that ?the mingling of the two races? was fruitful and even led to a new peak of its own kind of Indian philosophy (p. 229)! Gruenendahl seems to ignore that Frauwallner repeated his racist interpretation of Indian philosophy even after the war (and without any reservations) in his ?History of Indian Philosophy,? Vol. I, pp. 26-27. In this context, Frauwallner?s usage of the typical Nazi term ?Volksk?rper? (nation?s body) has to be noted. As is well known, the National Socialists thought of the German nation as a body to be kept healthy, clean and free from disease, obnoxious influences and parasites (such as minorities belonging to so-called inferior races). The same racist historical interpretation is repeated as late as 1959 in Frauwallner?s article ?Indische Philosophie.? This time at least he adds that a definitive statement about this, i.e., the racial background of the two developmental phases of Indian philosophy, seems ?premature? (verfr?ht). That Frauwallner was an anti-Semite is certainly not an unfounded inference by Pollock (as Gruenendahl claims on p. 233), but a well attested fact. Even though there are no direct anti-Semitic statements in Frauwallner?s writings, there are other sources that testify clearly to his anti-Semitism well after WW II (cf., for instance, the sources utilized by Jakob Stuchlik?s dissertation submitted to the University of Vienna in 2005 and his forthcoming monograph on the background of Frauwallner?s ?Aryan hypothesis? to be published by the Austrian Academy of Sciences). It is arbitrary and unacceptable to form a judgement on the basis of published Indological studies alone. Gruenendahl points out some differences between Frauwallner?s statements and those of Chamberlain (p. 228) and the agreement of the former with Gobineau?s positions (p. 229), but fails to indicate Frauwallner?s more immediate sources of inspiration. One such source is the renowned Vedic and Bud?dhist scholar Hermann Oldenberg, whom Frauwallner admired; some of the former?s statements seem to have been of direct inspiration to him. I will quote from this source below because I believe that it is not well known and interesting reading (Die Literatur des alten Indien, pp. 132-133). More details on the relationship between Frauwallner?s work on the history of Indian philosophy and his National Socialist ideology are available in a preface by Karin Preisendanz and myself to a forthcoming reprint of Frauwallner?s Philosophie des Buddhismus. As for Gruenendahl?s confident statement that there is evidently no ideological consensus between Walther W?st and Ludwig Alsdorf (p. 213), and his denial that racist ideology did not at all affect Alsdorf?s scholarly work (p. 225), compare the first chapter of Alsdorf?s ?Indien? in the Weltpolitische B?cherei (supervised by Alfred Rosenberg himself), second edition, Deutscher Verlag Berlin, 1942, especially pp. 12-13. To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be less biased than his paper referred to above. With best wishes, Eli Franco P.S. For Prof. Slaje?s eloquent praise of Gruenendahl?s work and method, cf. his message to the list dated January 9, 2007. H. Oldenberg, Die Literatur des alten Indien, 2nd ed., Stuttgart 1923, pp. 132-133: ?Above all there were probably influences [by the indi?genous people of India] that worked in a very pro?found way which we can only surmise: through the gradually progressing transformation of the blood, which means a transformation of the Soul, through the constant influx of new quantities of the blood of savages and semi-savages into the veins of those who still called themselves Aryans. Zeus and Apollo continued to rule as long as there were Greek gods because the Greek nation remained the same. Indra and Agni had to leave the field to other gods because the Indian nation had become a different one. For these minds, in which an inscrutable jumble of anta?gonistic powers, intertwined with each other, unleashed at each other, was at work, the Vedic gods were much too guile?lessly simple; their being was all too easily exhausted. They had come from the North: now tropical gods were needed. These were hardly of fixed shapes any longer; they were whole tangles of shapes, bodies from which oozed heads upon heads, arms upon arms, multi?tudes of hands holding multitudes of attributes, clubs and lotus flowers: voluptuous, sombre and grandiose poetry every?where, exuberance and blurred shapelessness: a terrible disaster for the fine arts? (?Vor allem werden jene Ein?fl?sse (scil. der Urbewohner Indiens) in einer tiefsten Weise gewirkt haben, die wir nur ahnen k?nnen: durch die allm?hlich fortschreitende Wandlung des Blutes, die eine Wandlung der Seele bedeutet, durch das be?st?ndige Ein?str?men neuer Mengen von Wilden- und Halb?wil?den?blut in die Adern derer, die sich noch immer Arier nann?ten. Zeus und Apollon haben ihre Herrschaft be?halten, solange es griechische G?tter gab, denn das Grie?chenvolk blieb dasselbe. Indra und Agni mussten andern G?ttern das Feld r?umen, denn das indische Volk war ein andres ge?worden. F?r diese Geister, in denen un?er?gr?ndliche Mischungen widerstreitender Kr?fte, mit?einander ver?schlungen, gegeneinander entfesselt, ihr Spiel trieben, waren die Vedag?tter allzu kindlich einfach; gar zu leicht war ihr Wesen ausgesch?pft. Sie waren von Norden ge?kommen: jetzt brauchte man tropische G?tter. Es waren kaum mehr feste Gestalten; es waren ganze Gestal?ten?kn?uel, K?rper, aus denen K?pfe ?ber K?pfe, Arme ?ber Arme hervor?quollen, Mengen von H?nden, die Mengen von Attributen, Keulen und Lotusblumen halten: ?berall ?ppige und d?stere, grandiose Poesie, ?berf?lle und ver?schwommene Formlosigkeit: Ein b?ses Verh?ngnis f?r die bildende Kunst.?) > [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I > remember them as rather pleasant.] > > > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > > I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. > So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for > responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. > > Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a > pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made > by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. > > What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a > discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what > I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological > analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention > to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., > ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, > deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to > Kindergarten level. > > Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place > for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was > absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp > Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; > at least I do not remember ever meeting him. > > Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts > what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same > kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in > some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German > Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National > Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. > > With best wishes, > Eli Franco > > Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure >> >>> everybody had enough of this by now. >> >> >> >> Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. >> >> I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. > As >> I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so >> much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his >> forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement > with >> Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its >> decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he >> would rather not discuss it in public. >> >> So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor >> Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is >> presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal >> interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at > least >> one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the > "whenever"-pattern >> insinuated in his remark. >> >> Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: > "I >> have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure >> everyone had enough of it." >> >> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >> >> ***************************************** >> >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate >> >>> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. >> >>> Best wishes >> >>> EF >> >> >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Mar 16 10:15:11 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 06:15:11 -0400 Subject: time to change the tune In-Reply-To: <20090316031204.BUC75839@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085355.23782.17300319896643800805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 779 Lines: 35 I agree! alaM vipriyeNa vivAdena! -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 16-Mar-09, at 4:12 AM, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > I find the use of the Indology list > by our colleagues in Germany to be > tiresome in the extreme and not > to accord very well with the purposes > for which Indology was established. > > If this continues much longer, I, for > one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. > > Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to > settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, > so that those interested in this will have > their own playpen. > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Mar 16 10:31:51 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 06:31:51 -0400 Subject: MBh. 2.54.22 Message-ID: <161227085358.23782.17017061433339489150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 695 Lines: 24 MBh. 22.54.22 says: azvAMs tittiri-kalmASAn gandharvAn ... dadau CitrarathaH... It seems to be that tittiri, kalmASa and gandharva could refer to different breeds/kinds of horses. Renou understood it that way (Anthologie sanscrite), but he gives no reference to support this. Nakula's AzvaZAstra (Thanjavur Sarasvati Mahal Series No. 56) has no reference to breeds of horses either as far as I can discover. So where can one find a clarification? Many thanks! Stella Sandahl -- Professor Stella Sandahl Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 978-4295 Fax. (416) 978-5711 From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Mar 16 03:18:34 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 08:48:34 +0530 Subject: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) Message-ID: <161227085345.23782.637631609909866336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 16753 Lines: 200 Perhaps, I read somewhere that H.Oldenberg was Jew. It has remained a mystery to me that he could still be?an Aryanist in the bad sense of the term? The forces at play in pre-Nazi Europe and the odd equations reached thereby are of course not well-known?to me. Or the information was incorrect? DB --- On Mon, 16/3/09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Subject: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 16 March, 2009, 8:20 AM -----Inline Attachment Follows----- Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his earlier > claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest > charges. Even this very statement is a distortion or ?fabrication.? I never said or indicated that I am too busy to prove my claims. Dr. Gruenendahl asked for one example (?may I ask you to give one example??) and I gave him one example. He may not like the example, he may think that the example is no good, but he cannot (or should not) claim that I did not take the time to write to him. Further, I tried to take this discussion off the list, honestly thinking that ?everybody had enough of this.? But Gruenendahl knows better. The real reason why I do not want to discuss it on the list, he claims, is that I do not want to discuss the example in public (?I understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it in public.?). Basically he accuses me of being dishonest. But this accusation is plainly absurd. We already discussed this example in public, and Gruenendahl knows it because he himself participated in the discussion. If anyone is interested, they can find the discussion in the archive of the German Indologie discussion group. Evidence for ad hominem argument and cheap psychological analysis was already given in the last message, but if it needs to be ?proved?, I quote: ?I cannot see who expects to gain from this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view.?? It is clear from the context that this statement refers to me. The most? significant point, however, which should have a broader appeal, is Dr. Gruenendahl?s attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National Socialism. I think the issue is important and want to discuss it in some detail, without, however, being exhaustive. The publication in question is Gruenendahl?s contribution to Gustav Roth?s Felicitation Volume, entitled ?Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord,? In U. H?sken, P. Kieffer-P?lz and A. Peters [eds.], Jaina-Itih?sa-Ratna. Festschrift f?r Gustav Roth zum 90. Geburtstag. Marburg 2006, pp. 209-236. Already when I first read it, I was dismayed not only by Gruenendahl?s occasionally spiteful criticism of Sheldon Pollock, but also by the way Gruenendahl misunderstands and misrepresents his sources, especially in his attempt to exonerate Frauwallner from the charge, made by Pollock, of having been affiliated with National Socialist ideology. Gruenendahl (p. 217) argues (and this is typical for his emotional style) that one would thoroughly misunderstand Pollock?s intentions if one would drag them down to the level of facts, which are a negligible quantity in the age of ?polyvalent? discourse. He states that Pollock does not use facts to determine reality, but resorts to strategic choices and interpretations of the materials to draw maximum attention to himself (!). Had I tried, I could not have found a better way to describe Gruenendahl?s own approach to the topic. I will illustrate the above with ?facts.? But let me first note Gruenendahl?s remarkable lack of sensitivity to the historical and political context. A racist or racialist statement made in Germany in 1939 or 1942 cannot be divorced from this context, and to argue, as Gruenendahl does (e.g., p. 232 and passim), that similar statements were already made by racists of previous generations (such as Gobineau, Renan, etc.) and that it is therefore not evident that these ideas (as expressed e.g., by Frauwallner in 1944) are associated with National Socialist ideology, is not only na?ve, but preposterous. Here are a few examples of how Gruenendahl twists his source material. Frauwallner (in 1944) approvingly quotes von Soden to the effect that only the Indo-Europeans, which are determined by the Nordic race, are capable of creating science properly speaking and states that ?on the basis of our investigations up to now we cannot but agree with this statement? (? ?da? Wis?sen?schaft im strengen Sinn des Wortes etwas ist, das nur von den von der nordischen Rasse bestimmten Indogermanen geschaffen werden konnte? (S. 556). Wir k?nnen dieser Behauptung auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen nur beistimmen.?). Gruenendahl (p. 232) interprets this statement to mean that Frauwallner at least signalized some reserve in his endorsement of von Soden?s statement (?? einen Vorbehalt zumindest angedeutet?). This interpretation of a stereotypical expression (?auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen?) is simply tendentious and farfetched. There is certainly nothing in this context to support it. Frauwallner?s confident perception of himself as a true pioneer of solid philological research into the history of Indian philosophy is misinterpreted by Gruenendahl (p. 231) to mean that Frauwallner stated that the relevant direction of Indological research (i.e., research that is programmatically determined by the aspect of race) was in its beginning?an unsuccessful attempt by Gruenendahl to show, on the alleged authority of Frauwallner himself, that Indologists up to this time had not yet followed this line of research. Furthermore, in his polemical zeal Gruenendahl misre?presents Frauwallner?s hypothesis of two distinct, racially conditioned historical phases of Indian philosophy and inverts Frauwallner?s judgement about the second period: he presents Frauwallner?s reference to the peak (occurring in the first half of the second millennium) of the development of Indian philosophy in its *second*, clearly inferior phase as the view that ?the mingling of the two races? was fruitful and even led to a new peak of its own kind of Indian philosophy (p. 229)! Gruenendahl seems to ignore that Frauwallner repeated his racist interpretation of Indian philosophy even after the war (and without any reservations) in his ?History of Indian Philosophy,? Vol. I, pp. 26-27. In this context, Frauwallner?s usage of the typical Nazi term ?Volksk?rper? (nation?s body) has to be noted. As is well known, the National Socialists thought of the German nation as a body to be kept healthy, clean and free from disease, obnoxious influences and parasites (such as minorities belonging to so-called inferior races). The same racist historical interpretation is repeated as late as 1959 in Frauwallner?s article ?Indische Philosophie.? This time at least he adds that a definitive statement about this, i.e., the racial background of the two developmental phases of Indian philosophy, seems ?premature? (verfr?ht). That Frauwallner was an anti-Semite is certainly not an unfounded inference by Pollock (as Gruenendahl claims on p. 233), but a well attested fact. Even though there are no direct anti-Semitic statements in Frauwallner?s writings, there are other sources that testify clearly to his anti-Semitism well after WW II (cf., for instance, the sources utilized by Jakob Stuchlik?s dissertation submitted to the University of Vienna in 2005 and his forthcoming monograph on the background of Frauwallner?s ?Aryan hypothesis? to be published by the Austrian Academy of Sciences). It is arbitrary and unacceptable to form a judgement on the basis of published Indological studies alone. Gruenendahl points out some differences between Frauwallner?s statements and those of Chamberlain (p. 228) and the agreement of the former with Gobineau?s positions (p. 229), but fails to indicate Frauwallner?s more immediate sources of inspiration. One such source is the renowned Vedic and Bud?dhist scholar Hermann Oldenberg, whom Frauwallner admired; some of the former?s statements seem to have been of direct inspiration to him. I will quote from this source below because I believe that it is not well known and interesting reading (Die Literatur des alten Indien, pp. 132-133). More details on the relationship between Frauwallner?s work on the history of Indian philosophy and his National Socialist ideology are available in a preface by Karin Preisendanz and myself to a forthcoming reprint of Frauwallner?s Philosophie des Buddhismus. As for Gruenendahl?s confident statement that there is evidently no ideological consensus between Walther W?st and Ludwig Alsdorf (p. 213), and his denial that racist ideology did not at all affect Alsdorf?s scholarly work (p. 225), compare the first chapter of Alsdorf?s ?Indien? in the Weltpolitische B?cherei (supervised by Alfred Rosenberg himself), second edition, Deutscher Verlag Berlin, 1942, especially pp. 12-13. To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be less biased than his paper referred to above. With best wishes, Eli Franco P.S. For Prof.? Slaje?s eloquent praise of Gruenendahl?s work and method, cf. his message to the list dated January 9, 2007. H. Oldenberg, Die Literatur des alten Indien, 2nd ed., Stuttgart 1923, pp. 132-133: ?Above all there were probably influences [by the indi?genous people of India] that worked in a very pro?found way which we can only surmise: through the gradually progressing transformation of the blood, which means a transformation of the Soul, through the constant influx of new quantities of the blood of savages and semi-savages into the veins of those who still called themselves Aryans. Zeus and Apollo continued to rule as long as there were Greek gods because the Greek nation remained the same. Indra and Agni had to leave the field to other gods because the Indian nation had become a different one. For these minds, in which an inscrutable jumble of anta?gonistic powers, intertwined with each other, unleashed at each other, was at work, the Vedic gods were much too guile?lessly simple; their being was all too easily exhausted. They had come from the North: now tropical gods were needed. These were hardly of fixed shapes any longer; they were whole tangles of shapes, bodies from which oozed heads upon heads, arms upon arms, multi?tudes of hands holding multitudes of attributes, clubs and lotus flowers: voluptuous, sombre and grandiose poetry every?where, exuberance and blurred shapelessness: a terrible disaster for the fine arts? (?Vor allem werden jene Ein?fl?sse (scil. der Urbewohner Indiens) in einer tiefsten Weise gewirkt haben, die wir nur ahnen k?nnen: durch die allm?hlich fortschreitende Wandlung des Blutes, die eine Wandlung der Seele bedeutet, durch das be?st?ndige Ein?str?men neuer Mengen von Wilden- und Halb?wil?den?blut in die Adern derer, die sich noch immer Arier nann?ten. Zeus und Apollon haben ihre Herrschaft be?halten, solange es griechische G?tter gab, denn das Grie?chenvolk blieb dasselbe. Indra und Agni mussten andern G?ttern das Feld r?umen, denn das indische Volk war ein andres ge?worden. F?r diese Geister, in denen un?er?gr?ndliche Mischungen widerstreitender Kr?fte, mit?einander ver?schlungen, gegeneinander entfesselt, ihr Spiel trieben, waren die Vedag?tter allzu kindlich einfach; gar zu leicht war ihr Wesen ausgesch?pft. Sie waren von Norden ge?kommen: jetzt brauchte man tropische G?tter. Es waren kaum mehr feste Gestalten; es waren ganze Gestal?ten?kn?uel, K?rper, aus denen K?pfe ?ber K?pfe, Arme ?ber Arme hervor?quollen, Mengen von H?nden, die Mengen von Attributen, Keulen und Lotusblumen halten: ?berall ?ppige und d?stere, grandiose Poesie, ?berf?lle und ver?schwommene Formlosigkeit: Ein b?ses Verh?ngnis f?r die bildende Kunst.?) > [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I > remember them as rather pleasant.] > > > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > > I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. > So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for > responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. > > Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a > pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made > by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. > > What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a > discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what > I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological > analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention > to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., > ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, > deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to > Kindergarten level. > > Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place > for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was > absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp > Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; > at least I do not remember ever meeting him. > > Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts > what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same > kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in > some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German > Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National > Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. > > With best wishes, > Eli Franco > > Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure >> >>> everybody had enough of this by now. >> >> >> >> Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. >> >> I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. > As >> I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so >> much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his >> forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement > with >> Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its >> decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he >> would rather not discuss it in public. >> >> So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor >> Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is >> presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal >> interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at > least >> one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the > "whenever"-pattern >> insinuated in his remark. >> >> Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: > "I >> have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure >> everyone had enough of it." >> >> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >> >> ***************************************** >> >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate >> >>> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. >> >>> Best wishes >> >>> EF >> >> >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 16 10:51:02 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 10:51:02 +0000 Subject: AW: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085364.23782.378996404113289828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 22845 Lines: 555 I add my name to those who politely request that this debate in this form be conducted elsewhere. The topic is of some genuine interest and relevance to the history of the field of indology, and is potentially appropriate for discussion on this list. But much ink has already been spilled, and it seems to me that at present, positions that have already been adequately articulated here and elsewhere are just being repeated. What is particularly inappropriate is the personal tone of the exchanges. This isn't necessary, and while we all enjoy a bit of a tussle sometimes, it really has to be stopped in this forum and at this time. As a member of the INDOLOGY committee, therefore, I would like to ask all members of this list to cease posting on this topic for one week at least. After that, if it is necessary to resume the discussion, it must absolutely be carried out in a genuinely impersonal manner. With thanks to all parties, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Mon, 16 Mar 2009, Gruenendahl, Reinhold wrote: > Pressure is building up to end this debate. So I'll be as concise as > possible: > > > > Professor Franco's claim was: > >> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > >> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. > > Since not "anyone" has access to the archive of the German INDOLOGIE-list > where the exchange Professor Franco refers to took place, I have pasted the > two relevant messages below. I hope this will show that I argued first and > foremost in defence of freedom of information. If Prof. Franco feels that > this is enough to prove his claim, I'm still waiting for a second example to > prove the "whenever"-pattern. > > _______________________ > > > > Meanwhile, Professor Franco has shifted the debate into yet another > direction, claiming that my contribution to the Festschrift Gustav Roth was > an "attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National > Socialism". For those who want to hear it, the title of my article says what > it is about: > > "Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord. Die Kontinuit?tskonstrukte Sheldon > Pollocks und seiner Epigonen im Lichte ihrer Beweisf?hrung". > > My "agenda", as Professor Franco put it, was to examine the evidence Pollock > and his epigones produce in support of their claim that "German Indology" > contributed to the formulation of the National Socialist ideology. The result > was that this supposed evidence was largely non-existent. > > This has nothing to do with exonerating "German indology" (a term Pollock > leaves undefined). That some indologists were members of the NSDAP is > undisputed, but it still remains to be shown that they contributed to the > formation of NS ideology, and if so, that their contribution was in any way > informed by their being indologists. > > My examination involved a differentiated look at the positions taken by > Walther W?st and Erich Frauwallner. This part is the source of Professor > Franco's discontextualized quotes, and I must leave it to the discretion of > the reader whether they are an adequate representation of my article. > > If required, I can discuss Professor Franco's charges point by point, but for > the time being I shall leave it at that. > > > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Gesendet: Mo 16.03.2009 03:50 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer > Language barriers --- financial barriers) > > > > Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > >> Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his > earlier >> claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest >> charges. > > Even this very statement is a distortion or ?fabrication.? I never > said or indicated that I am too busy to prove my claims. Dr. > Gruenendahl asked for one example (?may I ask you to give one > example??) and I gave him one example. He may not like the example, he > may think that the example is no good, but he cannot (or should not) > claim that I did not take the time to write to him. > > Further, I tried to take this discussion off the list, honestly > thinking that ?everybody had enough of this.? But Gruenendahl knows > better. The real reason why I do not want to discuss it on the list, > he claims, is that I do not want to discuss the example in public (?I > understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it > in public.?). Basically he accuses me of being dishonest. But this > accusation is plainly absurd. We already discussed this example in > public, and Gruenendahl knows it because he himself participated in > the discussion. If anyone is interested, they can find the discussion > in the archive of the German Indologie discussion group. > > Evidence for ad hominem argument and cheap psychological analysis was > already given in the last message, but if it needs to be ?proved?, I > quote: ?I cannot see who expects to gain from > this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my > view.? It is clear from the context that this statement refers to me. > > The most significant point, however, which should have a broader > appeal, is Dr. Gruenendahl?s attempt to exonerate German Indology from > its affiliation with National Socialism. I think the issue is > important and want to discuss it in some detail, without, however, > being exhaustive. > > The publication in question is Gruenendahl?s contribution to Gustav > Roth?s Felicitation Volume, entitled ?Von der Indologie zum > V?lkermord,? In U. H?sken, P. Kieffer-P?lz and A. Peters [eds.], > Jaina-Itih?sa-Ratna. Festschrift f?r Gustav Roth zum 90. Geburtstag. > Marburg 2006, pp. 209-236. Already when I first read it, I was > dismayed not only by Gruenendahl?s occasionally spiteful criticism of > Sheldon Pollock, but also by the way Gruenendahl misunderstands and > misrepresents his sources, especially in his attempt to exonerate > Frauwallner from the charge, made by Pollock, of having been > affiliated with National Socialist ideology. > > Gruenendahl (p. 217) argues (and this is typical for his emotional > style) that one would thoroughly misunderstand Pollock?s intentions if > one would drag them down to the level of facts, which are a negligible > quantity in the age of ?polyvalent? discourse. He states that Pollock > does not use facts to determine reality, but resorts to strategic > choices and interpretations of the materials to draw maximum attention > to himself (!). Had I tried, I could not have found a better way to > describe Gruenendahl?s own approach to the topic. > > I will illustrate the above with ?facts.? But let me first note > Gruenendahl?s remarkable lack of sensitivity to the historical and > political context. A racist or racialist statement made in Germany in > 1939 or 1942 cannot be divorced from this context, and to argue, as > Gruenendahl does (e.g., p. 232 and passim), that similar statements > were already made by racists of previous generations (such as > Gobineau, Renan, etc.) and that it is therefore not evident that these > ideas (as expressed e.g., by Frauwallner in 1944) are associated with > National Socialist ideology, is not only na?ve, but preposterous. > > Here are a few examples of how Gruenendahl twists his source material. > > Frauwallner (in 1944) approvingly quotes von Soden to the effect that > only the Indo-Europeans, which are determined by the Nordic race, are > capable of creating science properly speaking and states that ?on the > basis of our investigations up to now we cannot but agree with this > statement? (? ?da? Wis?sen?schaft im strengen Sinn des Wortes etwas > ist, das nur von den von der nordischen Rasse bestimmten Indogermanen > geschaffen werden konnte? (S. 556). Wir k?nnen dieser Behauptung auf > Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen nur beistimmen.?). > > Gruenendahl (p. 232) interprets this statement to mean that > Frauwallner at least signalized some reserve in his endorsement of von > Soden?s statement (?? einen Vorbehalt zumindest angedeutet?). This > interpretation of a stereotypical expression (?auf Grund unserer > bisherigen Betrachtungen?) is simply tendentious and farfetched. There > is certainly nothing in this context to support it. > > Frauwallner?s confident perception of himself as a true pioneer of > solid philological research into the history of Indian philosophy is > misinterpreted by Gruenendahl (p. 231) to mean that Frauwallner stated > that the relevant direction of Indological research (i.e., research > that is programmatically determined by the aspect of race) was in its > beginning?an unsuccessful attempt by Gruenendahl to show, on the > alleged authority of Frauwallner himself, that Indologists up to this > time had not yet followed this line of research. > > Furthermore, in his polemical zeal Gruenendahl misre?presents > Frauwallner?s hypothesis of two distinct, racially conditioned > historical phases of Indian philosophy and inverts Frauwallner?s > judgement about the second period: he presents Frauwallner?s reference > to the peak (occurring in the first half of the second millennium) of > the development of Indian philosophy in its *second*, clearly inferior > phase as the view that ?the mingling of the two races? was fruitful > and even led to a new peak of its own kind of Indian philosophy (p. > 229)! > > Gruenendahl seems to ignore that Frauwallner repeated his racist > interpretation of Indian philosophy even after the war (and without > any reservations) in his ?History of Indian Philosophy,? Vol. I, pp. > 26-27. In this context, Frauwallner?s usage of the typical Nazi term > ?Volksk?rper? (nation?s body) has to be noted. As is well known, the > National Socialists thought of the German nation as a body to be kept > healthy, clean and free from disease, obnoxious influences and > parasites (such as minorities belonging to so-called inferior races). > The same racist historical interpretation is repeated as late as 1959 > in Frauwallner?s article ?Indische Philosophie.? This time at least he > adds that a definitive statement about this, i.e., the racial > background of the two developmental phases of Indian philosophy, seems > ?premature? (verfr?ht). > > That Frauwallner was an anti-Semite is certainly not an unfounded > inference by Pollock (as Gruenendahl claims on p. 233), but a well > attested fact. Even though there are no direct anti-Semitic statements > in Frauwallner?s writings, there are other sources that testify > clearly to his anti-Semitism well after WW II (cf., for instance, the > sources utilized by Jakob Stuchlik?s dissertation submitted to the > University of Vienna in 2005 and his forthcoming monograph on the > background of Frauwallner?s ?Aryan hypothesis? to be published by the > Austrian Academy of Sciences). It is arbitrary and unacceptable to > form a judgement on the basis of published Indological studies alone. > > Gruenendahl points out some differences between Frauwallner?s > statements and those of Chamberlain (p. 228) and the agreement of the > former with Gobineau?s positions (p. 229), but fails to indicate > Frauwallner?s more immediate sources of inspiration. One such source > is the renowned Vedic and Bud?dhist scholar Hermann Oldenberg, whom > Frauwallner admired; some of the former?s statements seem to have been > of direct inspiration to him. I will quote from this source below > because I believe that it is not well known and interesting reading > (Die Literatur des alten Indien, pp. 132-133). > > More details on the relationship between Frauwallner?s work on the > history of Indian philosophy and his National Socialist ideology are > available in a preface by Karin Preisendanz and myself to a > forthcoming reprint of Frauwallner?s Philosophie des Buddhismus. > > As for Gruenendahl?s confident statement that there is evidently no > ideological consensus between Walther W?st and Ludwig Alsdorf (p. > 213), and his denial that racist ideology did not at all affect > Alsdorf?s scholarly work (p. 225), compare the first chapter of > Alsdorf?s ?Indien? in the Weltpolitische B?cherei (supervised by > Alfred Rosenberg himself), second edition, Deutscher Verlag Berlin, > 1942, especially pp. 12-13. > > To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring > and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of > this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more > than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to > undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark > period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced > monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be > less biased than his paper referred to above. > > With best wishes, > Eli Franco > > P.S. For Prof. Slaje?s eloquent praise of Gruenendahl?s work and > method, cf. his message to the list dated January 9, 2007. > > H. Oldenberg, Die Literatur des alten Indien, 2nd ed., Stuttgart 1923, > pp. 132-133: > ?Above all there were probably influences [by the indi?genous people > of India] that worked in a very pro?found way which we can only > surmise: through the gradually progressing transformation of the > blood, which means a transformation of the Soul, through the constant > influx of new quantities of the blood of savages and semi-savages into > the veins of those who still called themselves Aryans. Zeus and Apollo > continued to rule as long as there were Greek gods because the Greek > nation remained the same. Indra and Agni had to leave the field to > other gods because the Indian nation had become a different one. For > these minds, in which an inscrutable jumble of anta?gonistic powers, > intertwined with each other, unleashed at each other, was at work, the > Vedic gods were much too guile?lessly simple; their being was all too > easily exhausted. They had come from the North: now tropical gods were > needed. These were hardly of fixed shapes any longer; they were whole > tangles of shapes, bodies from which oozed heads upon heads, arms upon > arms, multi?tudes of hands holding multitudes of attributes, clubs and > lotus flowers: voluptuous, sombre and grandiose poetry every?where, > exuberance and blurred shapelessness: a terrible disaster for the fine > arts? (?Vor allem werden jene Ein?fl?sse (scil. der Urbewohner > Indiens) in einer tiefsten Weise gewirkt haben, die wir nur ahnen > k?nnen: durch die allm?hlich fortschreitende Wandlung des Blutes, die > eine Wandlung der Seele bedeutet, durch das be?st?ndige Ein?str?men > neuer Mengen von Wilden- und Halb?wil?den?blut in die Adern derer, die > sich noch immer Arier nann?ten. Zeus und Apollon haben ihre Herrschaft > be?halten, solange es griechische G?tter gab, denn das Grie?chenvolk > blieb dasselbe. Indra und Agni mussten andern G?ttern das Feld r?umen, > denn das indische Volk war ein andres ge?worden. F?r diese Geister, in > denen un?er?gr?ndliche Mischungen widerstreitender Kr?fte, > mit?einander ver?schlungen, gegeneinander entfesselt, ihr Spiel > trieben, waren die Vedag?tter allzu kindlich einfach; gar zu leicht > war ihr Wesen ausgesch?pft. Sie waren von Norden ge?kommen: jetzt > brauchte man tropische G?tter. Es waren kaum mehr feste Gestalten; es > waren ganze Gestal?ten?kn?uel, K?rper, aus denen K?pfe ?ber K?pfe, > Arme ?ber Arme hervor?quollen, Mengen von H?nden, die Mengen von > Attributen, Keulen und Lotusblumen halten: ?berall ?ppige und d?stere, > grandiose Poesie, ?berf?lle und ver?schwommene Formlosigkeit: Ein > b?ses Verh?ngnis f?r die bildende Kunst.?) > > > > > > > > > > > >> [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I >> remember them as rather pleasant.] >> >> >> >> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE >> Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 >> An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers >> >> >> >> I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. >> So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for >> responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. >> >> Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a >> pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made >> by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. >> >> What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a >> discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what >> I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological >> analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention >> to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., >> ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, >> deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to >> Kindergarten level. >> >> Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place >> for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was >> absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp >> Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; >> at least I do not remember ever meeting him. >> >> Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts >> what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same >> kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in >> some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German >> Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National >> Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. >> >> With best wishes, >> Eli Franco >> >> Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : >> >>> On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >>> >>>> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure >>> >>>> everybody had enough of this by now. >>> >>> >>> >>> Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. >>> >>> I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. >> As >>> I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so >>> much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his >>> forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement >> with >>> Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its >>> decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why > he >>> would rather not discuss it in public. >>> >>> So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider > Professor >>> Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that > is >>> presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal >>> interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at >> least >>> one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the >> "whenever"-pattern >>> insinuated in his remark. >>> >>> Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: >> "I >>> have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure >>> everyone had enough of it." >>> >>> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >>> >>> ***************************************** >>> >>> On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >>> >>>> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate >>> >>>> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. >>> >>>> Best wishes >>> >>>> EF >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > > > > ################################################################# > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "gruenendahl" > > To: "Eli Franco" ; "Informationsaustausch der > > deutschsprachigen Indologie" > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:56 AM > > Subject: Re: Urteil Oberverwaltungsgericht Hamburg zu Berufungsverfahren > > > > Ich kann weder erkennen, weshalb der Hinweis von Herrn Slaje auf eine > > im Internet zug?ngliche Information "einiger Pr?zisierungen und > > Erg?nzungen" bed?rfte, noch, welchen Beitrag die Einlassung von Herrn > > Franco dazu ggf. leisten k?nnte. Gegenstand der Nachricht von Herrn > > Slaje war die Bereitstellung der Information, nicht das Gerichtsurteil. Den > > Hinweis von Herrn Slaje nehme ich dankend zur Kenntnis, die kaum > > objektiv zu nennende Einsch?tzung des Berufungsverfahrens (" ... zum > > Himmel stinkt ..." etc.) sowie des in der Sache ergangenen Urteils sollte > > aus meiner Sicht nicht Gegenstand dieser Liste sein. > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > ***************************************************************************** > ******** > > > > > > Absender: "Eli Franco" > > Empf nger: > > Datum: 27. Sep 2005 02:05 > > Betreff: Re: Urteil Oberverwaltungsgericht Hamburg zu Berufungsverfahren > > Herr Gruenendahl liest nicht richtig. Herr Slajes Nachricht ist nicht bloss > > ein Hinweis, sondern auch eine Behauptung, naemlich dass der Urteil des > > Oberverwaltungsgerichts Hamburg "auch f?r die Indologie von erheblicher > > Relevanz sein d rfte", und dies ist falsch oder "bedarf einer > > Praezisierung", weil jedes Bundesland ein anderes Hochschulgesetz hat. > > Welche Motivation hinter diesem angeblich neutralem Hinweis steht, vermag > > ich nicht zu sagen. > > Herr Gruenendahl folgert auch nicht richtig. Nur aus der Behauptung, dass > > das Verfahren stinkt, kann man nicht erschliessen, dass die Behauptung nicht > > "objektiv" ist. Manche Verfahren stinken auch "objektiv" und im vorliegenden > > Fall wurden auch die durchaus nachweisbaren, objektiven Indizien dafuer > > angefuehrt. > > Mir ist ferner nicht ersichtlich warum er nur fuer eine gewisse Art von > > Information dankbar ist, und nicht fuer eine andere. > > Ich bin jedoch im Grunde ganz Herrn Gruenendahls Meinung. Das Urteil sollte > > nicht Gegenstand > > einer Diskussion in dieser Liste sein und ich haette auch nichts darueber > > geschrieben, wenn Herr > > Slaje nicht mit seinem "objektiven" Hinweis und seiner Behauptung eben eine > > solche provoziert > > haette. > > Mit freundliche Gruessen > > Eli Franco > > > > > > > > > From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Mon Mar 16 10:35:20 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 11:35:20 +0100 Subject: AW: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) Message-ID: <161227085361.23782.5324103697667741624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 21173 Lines: 522 Pressure is building up to end this debate. So I'll be as concise as possible: Professor Franco's claim was: > It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate > Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. Since not "anyone" has access to the archive of the German INDOLOGIE-list where the exchange Professor Franco refers to took place, I have pasted the two relevant messages below. I hope this will show that I argued first and foremost in defence of freedom of information. If Prof. Franco feels that this is enough to prove his claim, I'm still waiting for a second example to prove the "whenever"-pattern. _______________________ Meanwhile, Professor Franco has shifted the debate into yet another direction, claiming that my contribution to the Festschrift Gustav Roth was an "attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National Socialism". For those who want to hear it, the title of my article says what it is about: "Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord. Die Kontinuit?tskonstrukte Sheldon Pollocks und seiner Epigonen im Lichte ihrer Beweisf?hrung". My "agenda", as Professor Franco put it, was to examine the evidence Pollock and his epigones produce in support of their claim that "German Indology" contributed to the formulation of the National Socialist ideology. The result was that this supposed evidence was largely non-existent. This has nothing to do with exonerating "German indology" (a term Pollock leaves undefined). That some indologists were members of the NSDAP is undisputed, but it still remains to be shown that they contributed to the formation of NS ideology, and if so, that their contribution was in any way informed by their being indologists. My examination involved a differentiated look at the positions taken by Walther W?st and Erich Frauwallner. This part is the source of Professor Franco's discontextualized quotes, and I must leave it to the discretion of the reader whether they are an adequate representation of my article. If required, I can discuss Professor Franco's charges point by point, but for the time being I shall leave it at that. Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Gesendet: Mo 16.03.2009 03:50 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his earlier > claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest > charges. Even this very statement is a distortion or ?fabrication.? I never said or indicated that I am too busy to prove my claims. Dr. Gruenendahl asked for one example (?may I ask you to give one example??) and I gave him one example. He may not like the example, he may think that the example is no good, but he cannot (or should not) claim that I did not take the time to write to him. Further, I tried to take this discussion off the list, honestly thinking that ?everybody had enough of this.? But Gruenendahl knows better. The real reason why I do not want to discuss it on the list, he claims, is that I do not want to discuss the example in public (?I understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it in public.?). Basically he accuses me of being dishonest. But this accusation is plainly absurd. We already discussed this example in public, and Gruenendahl knows it because he himself participated in the discussion. If anyone is interested, they can find the discussion in the archive of the German Indologie discussion group. Evidence for ad hominem argument and cheap psychological analysis was already given in the last message, but if it needs to be ?proved?, I quote: ?I cannot see who expects to gain from this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view.? It is clear from the context that this statement refers to me. The most significant point, however, which should have a broader appeal, is Dr. Gruenendahl?s attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National Socialism. I think the issue is important and want to discuss it in some detail, without, however, being exhaustive. The publication in question is Gruenendahl?s contribution to Gustav Roth?s Felicitation Volume, entitled ?Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord,? In U. H?sken, P. Kieffer-P?lz and A. Peters [eds.], Jaina-Itih?sa-Ratna. Festschrift f?r Gustav Roth zum 90. Geburtstag. Marburg 2006, pp. 209-236. Already when I first read it, I was dismayed not only by Gruenendahl?s occasionally spiteful criticism of Sheldon Pollock, but also by the way Gruenendahl misunderstands and misrepresents his sources, especially in his attempt to exonerate Frauwallner from the charge, made by Pollock, of having been affiliated with National Socialist ideology. Gruenendahl (p. 217) argues (and this is typical for his emotional style) that one would thoroughly misunderstand Pollock?s intentions if one would drag them down to the level of facts, which are a negligible quantity in the age of ?polyvalent? discourse. He states that Pollock does not use facts to determine reality, but resorts to strategic choices and interpretations of the materials to draw maximum attention to himself (!). Had I tried, I could not have found a better way to describe Gruenendahl?s own approach to the topic. I will illustrate the above with ?facts.? But let me first note Gruenendahl?s remarkable lack of sensitivity to the historical and political context. A racist or racialist statement made in Germany in 1939 or 1942 cannot be divorced from this context, and to argue, as Gruenendahl does (e.g., p. 232 and passim), that similar statements were already made by racists of previous generations (such as Gobineau, Renan, etc.) and that it is therefore not evident that these ideas (as expressed e.g., by Frauwallner in 1944) are associated with National Socialist ideology, is not only na?ve, but preposterous. Here are a few examples of how Gruenendahl twists his source material. Frauwallner (in 1944) approvingly quotes von Soden to the effect that only the Indo-Europeans, which are determined by the Nordic race, are capable of creating science properly speaking and states that ?on the basis of our investigations up to now we cannot but agree with this statement? (? ?da? Wis?sen?schaft im strengen Sinn des Wortes etwas ist, das nur von den von der nordischen Rasse bestimmten Indogermanen geschaffen werden konnte? (S. 556). Wir k?nnen dieser Behauptung auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen nur beistimmen.?). Gruenendahl (p. 232) interprets this statement to mean that Frauwallner at least signalized some reserve in his endorsement of von Soden?s statement (?? einen Vorbehalt zumindest angedeutet?). This interpretation of a stereotypical expression (?auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen?) is simply tendentious and farfetched. There is certainly nothing in this context to support it. Frauwallner?s confident perception of himself as a true pioneer of solid philological research into the history of Indian philosophy is misinterpreted by Gruenendahl (p. 231) to mean that Frauwallner stated that the relevant direction of Indological research (i.e., research that is programmatically determined by the aspect of race) was in its beginning?an unsuccessful attempt by Gruenendahl to show, on the alleged authority of Frauwallner himself, that Indologists up to this time had not yet followed this line of research. Furthermore, in his polemical zeal Gruenendahl misre?presents Frauwallner?s hypothesis of two distinct, racially conditioned historical phases of Indian philosophy and inverts Frauwallner?s judgement about the second period: he presents Frauwallner?s reference to the peak (occurring in the first half of the second millennium) of the development of Indian philosophy in its *second*, clearly inferior phase as the view that ?the mingling of the two races? was fruitful and even led to a new peak of its own kind of Indian philosophy (p. 229)! Gruenendahl seems to ignore that Frauwallner repeated his racist interpretation of Indian philosophy even after the war (and without any reservations) in his ?History of Indian Philosophy,? Vol. I, pp. 26-27. In this context, Frauwallner?s usage of the typical Nazi term ?Volksk?rper? (nation?s body) has to be noted. As is well known, the National Socialists thought of the German nation as a body to be kept healthy, clean and free from disease, obnoxious influences and parasites (such as minorities belonging to so-called inferior races). The same racist historical interpretation is repeated as late as 1959 in Frauwallner?s article ?Indische Philosophie.? This time at least he adds that a definitive statement about this, i.e., the racial background of the two developmental phases of Indian philosophy, seems ?premature? (verfr?ht). That Frauwallner was an anti-Semite is certainly not an unfounded inference by Pollock (as Gruenendahl claims on p. 233), but a well attested fact. Even though there are no direct anti-Semitic statements in Frauwallner?s writings, there are other sources that testify clearly to his anti-Semitism well after WW II (cf., for instance, the sources utilized by Jakob Stuchlik?s dissertation submitted to the University of Vienna in 2005 and his forthcoming monograph on the background of Frauwallner?s ?Aryan hypothesis? to be published by the Austrian Academy of Sciences). It is arbitrary and unacceptable to form a judgement on the basis of published Indological studies alone. Gruenendahl points out some differences between Frauwallner?s statements and those of Chamberlain (p. 228) and the agreement of the former with Gobineau?s positions (p. 229), but fails to indicate Frauwallner?s more immediate sources of inspiration. One such source is the renowned Vedic and Bud?dhist scholar Hermann Oldenberg, whom Frauwallner admired; some of the former?s statements seem to have been of direct inspiration to him. I will quote from this source below because I believe that it is not well known and interesting reading (Die Literatur des alten Indien, pp. 132-133). More details on the relationship between Frauwallner?s work on the history of Indian philosophy and his National Socialist ideology are available in a preface by Karin Preisendanz and myself to a forthcoming reprint of Frauwallner?s Philosophie des Buddhismus. As for Gruenendahl?s confident statement that there is evidently no ideological consensus between Walther W?st and Ludwig Alsdorf (p. 213), and his denial that racist ideology did not at all affect Alsdorf?s scholarly work (p. 225), compare the first chapter of Alsdorf?s ?Indien? in the Weltpolitische B?cherei (supervised by Alfred Rosenberg himself), second edition, Deutscher Verlag Berlin, 1942, especially pp. 12-13. To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be less biased than his paper referred to above. With best wishes, Eli Franco P.S. For Prof. Slaje?s eloquent praise of Gruenendahl?s work and method, cf. his message to the list dated January 9, 2007. H. Oldenberg, Die Literatur des alten Indien, 2nd ed., Stuttgart 1923, pp. 132-133: ?Above all there were probably influences [by the indi?genous people of India] that worked in a very pro?found way which we can only surmise: through the gradually progressing transformation of the blood, which means a transformation of the Soul, through the constant influx of new quantities of the blood of savages and semi-savages into the veins of those who still called themselves Aryans. Zeus and Apollo continued to rule as long as there were Greek gods because the Greek nation remained the same. Indra and Agni had to leave the field to other gods because the Indian nation had become a different one. For these minds, in which an inscrutable jumble of anta?gonistic powers, intertwined with each other, unleashed at each other, was at work, the Vedic gods were much too guile?lessly simple; their being was all too easily exhausted. They had come from the North: now tropical gods were needed. These were hardly of fixed shapes any longer; they were whole tangles of shapes, bodies from which oozed heads upon heads, arms upon arms, multi?tudes of hands holding multitudes of attributes, clubs and lotus flowers: voluptuous, sombre and grandiose poetry every?where, exuberance and blurred shapelessness: a terrible disaster for the fine arts? (?Vor allem werden jene Ein?fl?sse (scil. der Urbewohner Indiens) in einer tiefsten Weise gewirkt haben, die wir nur ahnen k?nnen: durch die allm?hlich fortschreitende Wandlung des Blutes, die eine Wandlung der Seele bedeutet, durch das be?st?ndige Ein?str?men neuer Mengen von Wilden- und Halb?wil?den?blut in die Adern derer, die sich noch immer Arier nann?ten. Zeus und Apollon haben ihre Herrschaft be?halten, solange es griechische G?tter gab, denn das Grie?chenvolk blieb dasselbe. Indra und Agni mussten andern G?ttern das Feld r?umen, denn das indische Volk war ein andres ge?worden. F?r diese Geister, in denen un?er?gr?ndliche Mischungen widerstreitender Kr?fte, mit?einander ver?schlungen, gegeneinander entfesselt, ihr Spiel trieben, waren die Vedag?tter allzu kindlich einfach; gar zu leicht war ihr Wesen ausgesch?pft. Sie waren von Norden ge?kommen: jetzt brauchte man tropische G?tter. Es waren kaum mehr feste Gestalten; es waren ganze Gestal?ten?kn?uel, K?rper, aus denen K?pfe ?ber K?pfe, Arme ?ber Arme hervor?quollen, Mengen von H?nden, die Mengen von Attributen, Keulen und Lotusblumen halten: ?berall ?ppige und d?stere, grandiose Poesie, ?berf?lle und ver?schwommene Formlosigkeit: Ein b?ses Verh?ngnis f?r die bildende Kunst.?) > [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I > remember them as rather pleasant.] > > > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > > I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. > So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for > responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. > > Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a > pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made > by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. > > What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a > discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what > I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological > analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention > to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., > ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, > deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to > Kindergarten level. > > Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place > for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was > absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp > Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; > at least I do not remember ever meeting him. > > Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts > what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same > kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in > some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German > Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National > Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. > > With best wishes, > Eli Franco > > Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure >> >>> everybody had enough of this by now. >> >> >> >> Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. >> >> I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. > As >> I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so >> much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his >> forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement > with >> Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its >> decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he >> would rather not discuss it in public. >> >> So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor >> Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is >> presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal >> interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at > least >> one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the > "whenever"-pattern >> insinuated in his remark. >> >> Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: > "I >> have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure >> everyone had enough of it." >> >> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >> >> ***************************************** >> >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate >> >>> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. >> >>> Best wishes >> >>> EF >> >> >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ################################################################# ----- Original Message ----- From: "gruenendahl" To: "Eli Franco" ; "Informationsaustausch der deutschsprachigen Indologie" Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Urteil Oberverwaltungsgericht Hamburg zu Berufungsverfahren Ich kann weder erkennen, weshalb der Hinweis von Herrn Slaje auf eine im Internet zug?ngliche Information "einiger Pr?zisierungen und Erg?nzungen" bed?rfte, noch, welchen Beitrag die Einlassung von Herrn Franco dazu ggf. leisten k?nnte. Gegenstand der Nachricht von Herrn Slaje war die Bereitstellung der Information, nicht das Gerichtsurteil. Den Hinweis von Herrn Slaje nehme ich dankend zur Kenntnis, die kaum objektiv zu nennende Einsch?tzung des Berufungsverfahrens (" ... zum Himmel stinkt ..." etc.) sowie des in der Sache ergangenen Urteils sollte aus meiner Sicht nicht Gegenstand dieser Liste sein. Mit freundlichen Gr??en Reinhold Gr?nendahl ***************************************************************************** ******** Absender: "Eli Franco" Empf nger: Datum: 27. Sep 2005 02:05 Betreff: Re: Urteil Oberverwaltungsgericht Hamburg zu Berufungsverfahren Herr Gruenendahl liest nicht richtig. Herr Slajes Nachricht ist nicht bloss ein Hinweis, sondern auch eine Behauptung, naemlich dass der Urteil des Oberverwaltungsgerichts Hamburg "auch f?r die Indologie von erheblicher Relevanz sein d rfte", und dies ist falsch oder "bedarf einer Praezisierung", weil jedes Bundesland ein anderes Hochschulgesetz hat. Welche Motivation hinter diesem angeblich neutralem Hinweis steht, vermag ich nicht zu sagen. Herr Gruenendahl folgert auch nicht richtig. Nur aus der Behauptung, dass das Verfahren stinkt, kann man nicht erschliessen, dass die Behauptung nicht "objektiv" ist. Manche Verfahren stinken auch "objektiv" und im vorliegenden Fall wurden auch die durchaus nachweisbaren, objektiven Indizien dafuer angefuehrt. Mir ist ferner nicht ersichtlich warum er nur fuer eine gewisse Art von Information dankbar ist, und nicht fuer eine andere. Ich bin jedoch im Grunde ganz Herrn Gruenendahls Meinung. Das Urteil sollte nicht Gegenstand einer Diskussion in dieser Liste sein und ich haette auch nichts darueber geschrieben, wenn Herr Slaje nicht mit seinem "objektiven" Hinweis und seiner Behauptung eben eine solche provoziert haette. Mit freundliche Gruessen Eli Franco From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Mon Mar 16 15:54:08 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 16:54:08 +0100 Subject: time to change the tune In-Reply-To: <20090316031204.BUC75839@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085367.23782.6168267186751270740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1075 Lines: 38 It is sometimes easy to be carried away, but in order to protect the large majority of "good guys/girls" from this list and in order not to scare them away: Dominik's old rule of thumb "two warnings then out" (stemming from the early times of the "wild" indology list) should be announced, should be known to all list members and should be adhered to. Jan Houben On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:12 AM, wrote: > I find the use of the Indology list > by our colleagues in Germany to be > tiresome in the extreme and not > to accord very well with the purposes > for which Indology was established. > > If this continues much longer, I, for > one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. > > Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to > settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, > so that those interested in this will have > their own playpen. > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Mon Mar 16 18:53:14 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 19:53:14 +0100 Subject: time to change the tune In-Reply-To: <20090316031204.BUC75839@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085370.23782.16728150101259630480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1064 Lines: 37 Some days ago I cautiously attempted the same warning. But instead of understanding I was met with barking from various sides at my temerity. This is precisely why a forum or discussionlist needs moderators. Greetings Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Verzonden: maandag 16 maart 2009 9:12 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: time to change the tune I find the use of the Indology list by our colleagues in Germany to be tiresome in the extreme and not to accord very well with the purposes for which Indology was established. If this continues much longer, I, for one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, so that those interested in this will have their own playpen. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Mon Mar 16 18:56:13 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 19:56:13 +0100 Subject: time to change the tune In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085373.23782.658908044862489604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1677 Lines: 53 I had already suggested as much, some days ago but all I harvested was criticism and a lesson to the effect that this list does not moderate. But obviously, this is necessary. Not because the subject of 'Nazi-indology'would not be appropriate as a topic to discuss here, but because the discussion deteriorates into mud-slinging and personal allegations and counter-allegations. Victor -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Jan Houben Verzonden: maandag 16 maart 2009 16:54 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: time to change the tune It is sometimes easy to be carried away, but in order to protect the large majority of "good guys/girls" from this list and in order not to scare them away: Dominik's old rule of thumb "two warnings then out" (stemming from the early times of the "wild" indology list) should be announced, should be known to all list members and should be adhered to. Jan Houben On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:12 AM, wrote: > I find the use of the Indology list > by our colleagues in Germany to be > tiresome in the extreme and not > to accord very well with the purposes > for which Indology was established. > > If this continues much longer, I, for > one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. > > Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to > settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, > so that those interested in this will have > their own playpen. > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Mon Mar 16 22:22:48 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 09 23:22:48 +0100 Subject: Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <981159.272.qm@web8604.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085376.23782.16872479303579473662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 658 Lines: 21 As far as I know he was not a Jew. According to Stache-Rosen, Oldenberg was the son of a protestant clergyman. Best wishes Eli Franco Zitat von Dipak Bhattacharya : > Perhaps, I read somewhere that H.Oldenberg was Jew. It has remained > a mystery to me that he could still be?an Aryanist in the bad sense > of the term? The forces at play in pre-Nazi Europe and the odd > equations reached thereby are of course not well-known?to me. Or the > information was incorrect? > DB > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Tue Mar 17 03:50:15 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 09 09:20:15 +0530 Subject: MBh. 2.54.22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085380.23782.12917358587577961261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1961 Lines: 58 As you've probably noticed, there seem to be a few other passages in the Mahaabhaarata (2.25:6, 2.25:19, 2.47:4, 3.79:24) in which it is clear that horses are meant. It seems, by the way, that tittirikalmaa.sa should be treated as one variety and not two, for there is a description of the king's stables in Har.sacarita 2 which begins with: atha vanaayujai.h , aara.t.tajai.h, kaambojai.h, bhaaradvaajai.h, sandhude"sajai.h, paarasiikai"s ca, "so.nai"s ca, "syaamai"s ca, "svetai"s ca, pi~njarai"s ca, haridbhi"s ca, tittirikalmaa.sai"s ca, pa~ncabhadrai"s ca, mallikaak.sai"s ca, k.rttikaapi~njarai"s ca, aayatanirmaa.msamukhai.h, anutka.takar.nako"sai.h,... tittirikalmaa.sa there is taken by Cowell and Thomas to mean "dappled like partridges", and this reflects the old commentary of "Sa"nkara (pp.99--100 of F?hrer's edition), who has remarks to make on some of the other horses too. The feminine form, tittirikalmaa.sii (describing a mare?) is mentioned in the Vaakyapadiiya. Dominic Goodall Pondicherry Centre, Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), P.O. Box 151, 16 & 19, Dumas Street, Pondicherry 605001 On 16 Mar 2009, at 16:01, Stella Sandahl wrote: > MBh. 22.54.22 says: azvAMs tittiri-kalmASAn gandharvAn ... dadau > CitrarathaH... > It seems to be that tittiri, kalmASa and gandharva could refer to > different breeds/kinds of horses. Renou understood it that way > (Anthologie sanscrite), > but he gives no reference to support this. > Nakula's AzvaZAstra (Thanjavur Sarasvati Mahal Series No. 56) has > no reference to breeds of horses either as far as I can discover. > So where can one find a clarification? Many thanks! > Stella Sandahl > > > -- > Professor Stella Sandahl > Department of East Asian Studies > 130 St. George St. room 14087 > Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca > Tel. (416) 978-4295 > Fax. (416) 978-5711 From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Tue Mar 17 14:39:50 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 09 15:39:50 +0100 Subject: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <20090316035056.12334fj4o297tfgw@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085383.23782.4224336754321680411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 18300 Lines: 720 Although I did not want to continue this particular line of discussion, I feel tempted to highlight the passage below To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be less biased than his paper referred to above. It is my experience that even in the presentday context classical Indology seems to be occasionally or even unwillingly drawn into political discourses of the same ilk. National Socialism may be dead, there are still or again coming up, adherents of this ideology or of cognate authoritarian, anti-democratic, racist and elitist ideologies, who at the same time profess admiration for things Indian. I feel Indologists should know very well the kinds of circles they move in. But I may have the advantage of a longstanding interest in sociology, history and political philosophy, and of some firsthand experience with these matters. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Verzonden: maandag 16 maart 2009 3:51 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > Since Professor Franco indicated that he was too busy for proving his earlier > claims it would indeed be too much to ask him to substantiate his latest > charges. Even this very statement is a distortion or ?fabrication.? I never said or indicated that I am too busy to prove my claims. Dr. Gruenendahl asked for one example (?may I ask you to give one example??) and I gave him one example. He may not like the example, he may think that the example is no good, but he cannot (or should not) claim that I did not take the time to write to him. Further, I tried to take this discussion off the list, honestly thinking that ?everybody had enough of this.? But Gruenendahl knows better. The real reason why I do not want to discuss it on the list, he claims, is that I do not want to discuss the example in public (?I understand that this is the reason why he would rather not discuss it in public.?). Basically he accuses me of being dishonest. But this accusation is plainly absurd. We already discussed this example in public, and Gruenendahl knows it because he himself participated in the discussion. If anyone is interested, they can find the discussion in the archive of the German Indologie discussion group. Evidence for ad hominem argument and cheap psychological analysis was already given in the last message, but if it needs to be ?proved?, I quote: ?I cannot see who expects to gain from this, except in terms of attention - undeserved attention, in my view.? It is clear from the context that this statement refers to me. The most significant point, however, which should have a broader appeal, is Dr. Gruenendahl?s attempt to exonerate German Indology from its affiliation with National Socialism. I think the issue is important and want to discuss it in some detail, without, however, being exhaustive. The publication in question is Gruenendahl?s contribution to Gustav Roth?s Felicitation Volume, entitled ?Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord,? In U. H?sken, P. Kieffer-P?lz and A. Peters [eds.], Jaina-Itih?sa-Ratna. Festschrift f?r Gustav Roth zum 90. Geburtstag. Marburg 2006, pp. 209-236. Already when I first read it, I was dismayed not only by Gruenendahl?s occasionally spiteful criticism of Sheldon Pollock, but also by the way Gruenendahl misunderstands and misrepresents his sources, especially in his attempt to exonerate Frauwallner from the charge, made by Pollock, of having been affiliated with National Socialist ideology. Gruenendahl (p. 217) argues (and this is typical for his emotional style) that one would thoroughly misunderstand Pollock?s intentions if one would drag them down to the level of facts, which are a negligible quantity in the age of ?polyvalent? discourse. He states that Pollock does not use facts to determine reality, but resorts to strategic choices and interpretations of the materials to draw maximum attention to himself (!). Had I tried, I could not have found a better way to describe Gruenendahl?s own approach to the topic. I will illustrate the above with ?facts.? But let me first note Gruenendahl?s remarkable lack of sensitivity to the historical and political context. A racist or racialist statement made in Germany in 1939 or 1942 cannot be divorced from this context, and to argue, as Gruenendahl does (e.g., p. 232 and passim), that similar statements were already made by racists of previous generations (such as Gobineau, Renan, etc.) and that it is therefore not evident that these ideas (as expressed e.g., by Frauwallner in 1944) are associated with National Socialist ideology, is not only na?ve, but preposterous. Here are a few examples of how Gruenendahl twists his source material. Frauwallner (in 1944) approvingly quotes von Soden to the effect that only the Indo-Europeans, which are determined by the Nordic race, are capable of creating science properly speaking and states that ?on the basis of our investigations up to now we cannot but agree with this statement? (? ?da? Wis?sen?schaft im strengen Sinn des Wortes etwas ist, das nur von den von der nordischen Rasse bestimmten Indogermanen geschaffen werden konnte? (S. 556). Wir k?nnen dieser Behauptung auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen nur beistimmen.?). Gruenendahl (p. 232) interprets this statement to mean that Frauwallner at least signalized some reserve in his endorsement of von Soden?s statement (?? einen Vorbehalt zumindest angedeutet?). This interpretation of a stereotypical expression (?auf Grund unserer bisherigen Betrachtungen?) is simply tendentious and farfetched. There is certainly nothing in this context to support it. Frauwallner?s confident perception of himself as a true pioneer of solid philological research into the history of Indian philosophy is misinterpreted by Gruenendahl (p. 231) to mean that Frauwallner stated that the relevant direction of Indological research (i.e., research that is programmatically determined by the aspect of race) was in its beginning?an unsuccessful attempt by Gruenendahl to show, on the alleged authority of Frauwallner himself, that Indologists up to this time had not yet followed this line of research. Furthermore, in his polemical zeal Gruenendahl misre?presents Frauwallner?s hypothesis of two distinct, racially conditioned historical phases of Indian philosophy and inverts Frauwallner?s judgement about the second period: he presents Frauwallner?s reference to the peak (occurring in the first half of the second millennium) of the development of Indian philosophy in its *second*, clearly inferior phase as the view that ?the mingling of the two races? was fruitful and even led to a new peak of its own kind of Indian philosophy (p. 229)! Gruenendahl seems to ignore that Frauwallner repeated his racist interpretation of Indian philosophy even after the war (and without any reservations) in his ?History of Indian Philosophy,? Vol. I, pp. 26-27. In this context, Frauwallner?s usage of the typical Nazi term ?Volksk?rper? (nation?s body) has to be noted. As is well known, the National Socialists thought of the German nation as a body to be kept healthy, clean and free from disease, obnoxious influences and parasites (such as minorities belonging to so-called inferior races). The same racist historical interpretation is repeated as late as 1959 in Frauwallner?s article ?Indische Philosophie.? This time at least he adds that a definitive statement about this, i.e., the racial background of the two developmental phases of Indian philosophy, seems ?premature? (verfr?ht). That Frauwallner was an anti-Semite is certainly not an unfounded inference by Pollock (as Gruenendahl claims on p. 233), but a well attested fact. Even though there are no direct anti-Semitic statements in Frauwallner?s writings, there are other sources that testify clearly to his anti-Semitism well after WW II (cf., for instance, the sources utilized by Jakob Stuchlik?s dissertation submitted to the University of Vienna in 2005 and his forthcoming monograph on the background of Frauwallner?s ?Aryan hypothesis? to be published by the Austrian Academy of Sciences). It is arbitrary and unacceptable to form a judgement on the basis of published Indological studies alone. Gruenendahl points out some differences between Frauwallner?s statements and those of Chamberlain (p. 228) and the agreement of the former with Gobineau?s positions (p. 229), but fails to indicate Frauwallner?s more immediate sources of inspiration. One such source is the renowned Vedic and Bud?dhist scholar Hermann Oldenberg, whom Frauwallner admired; some of the former?s statements seem to have been of direct inspiration to him. I will quote from this source below because I believe that it is not well known and interesting reading (Die Literatur des alten Indien, pp. 132-133). More details on the relationship between Frauwallner?s work on the history of Indian philosophy and his National Socialist ideology are available in a preface by Karin Preisendanz and myself to a forthcoming reprint of Frauwallner?s Philosophie des Buddhismus. As for Gruenendahl?s confident statement that there is evidently no ideological consensus between Walther W?st and Ludwig Alsdorf (p. 213), and his denial that racist ideology did not at all affect Alsdorf?s scholarly work (p. 225), compare the first chapter of Alsdorf?s ?Indien? in the Weltpolitische B?cherei (supervised by Alfred Rosenberg himself), second edition, Deutscher Verlag Berlin, 1942, especially pp. 12-13. To be sure, Pollock?s statements and hypotheses are at times daring and sweeping, but they constitute the beginning of the exploration of this phase of the history of our discipline, all the more so as, more than sixty years after WWII, no German Indologist has attempted to undertake the task of coming to terms with Indology during this dark period of German history. In this sense, Gruenendahl?s announced monograph will be very welcome indeed. One only hopes that it will be less biased than his paper referred to above. With best wishes, Eli Franco P.S. For Prof. Slaje?s eloquent praise of Gruenendahl?s work and method, cf. his message to the list dated January 9, 2007. H. Oldenberg, Die Literatur des alten Indien, 2nd ed., Stuttgart 1923, pp. 132-133: ?Above all there were probably influences [by the indi?genous people of India] that worked in a very pro?found way which we can only surmise: through the gradually progressing transformation of the blood, which means a transformation of the Soul, through the constant influx of new quantities of the blood of savages and semi-savages into the veins of those who still called themselves Aryans. Zeus and Apollo continued to rule as long as there were Greek gods because the Greek nation remained the same. Indra and Agni had to leave the field to other gods because the Indian nation had become a different one. For these minds, in which an inscrutable jumble of anta?gonistic powers, intertwined with each other, unleashed at each other, was at work, the Vedic gods were much too guile?lessly simple; their being was all too easily exhausted. They had come from the North: now tropical gods were needed. These were hardly of fixed shapes any longer; they were whole tangles of shapes, bodies from which oozed heads upon heads, arms upon arms, multi?tudes of hands holding multitudes of attributes, clubs and lotus flowers: voluptuous, sombre and grandiose poetry every?where, exuberance and blurred shapelessness: a terrible disaster for the fine arts? (?Vor allem werden jene Ein?fl?sse (scil. der Urbewohner Indiens) in einer tiefsten Weise gewirkt haben, die wir nur ahnen k?nnen: durch die allm?hlich fortschreitende Wandlung des Blutes, die eine Wandlung der Seele bedeutet, durch das be?st?ndige Ein?str?men neuer Mengen von Wilden- und Halb?wil?den?blut in die Adern derer, die sich noch immer Arier nann?ten. Zeus und Apollon haben ihre Herrschaft be?halten, solange es griechische G?tter gab, denn das Grie?chenvolk blieb dasselbe. Indra und Agni mussten andern G?ttern das Feld r?umen, denn das indische Volk war ein andres ge?worden. F?r diese Geister, in denen un?er?gr?ndliche Mischungen widerstreitender Kr?fte, mit?einander ver?schlungen, gegeneinander entfesselt, ihr Spiel trieben, waren die Vedag?tter allzu kindlich einfach; gar zu leicht war ihr Wesen ausgesch?pft. Sie waren von Norden ge?kommen: jetzt brauchte man tropische G?tter. Es waren kaum mehr feste Gestalten; es waren ganze Gestal?ten?kn?uel, K?rper, aus denen K?pfe ?ber K?pfe, Arme ?ber Arme hervor?quollen, Mengen von H?nden, die Mengen von Attributen, Keulen und Lotusblumen halten: ?berall ?ppige und d?stere, grandiose Poesie, ?berf?lle und ver?schwommene Formlosigkeit: Ein b?ses Verh?ngnis f?r die bildende Kunst.?) > [A pedantic correction: We met in Berlin on one or two occasions, and I > remember them as rather pleasant.] > > > > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Indology im Auftrag von franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE > Gesendet: Sa 14.03.2009 23:47 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > > I guess I was wrong; unfortunately, not everybody had enough of this. > So here we go for one more round, hopefully the last. I apologize for > responding a bit late; I was busy during the last few days. > > Dr. Gruenendahl is right. Two times are not enough to establish a > pattern. Perhaps next time he will side with me against a point made > by Prof. Slaje, but I somehow doubt it. > > What I object to, of course, is not the fact that he takes sides in a > discussion, but to his aggressive manner, malicious distortion of what > I said, his use of ad hominem arguments, and cheap psychological > analysis of the type ?Franco writes because he wants to draw attention > to himself, undeserved attention.? In the same vein I could say, e.g., > ?Gruenendahl?s offensiveness is only due to some personal frustration, > deserved frustration.? However, I do not want to regress to > Kindergarten level. > > Some of you have voiced the concern that the list has become a place > for personal and private battles. I can assure you that there was > absolutely nothing personal in my remark about the Glasenapp > Foundation. Furthermore, Dr. Gruenendahl and I do not know each other; > at least I do not remember ever meeting him. > > Further, I do not think that Dr. Gruenendahl *purposefully* distorts > what I said, but that his vision is blurred by some agenda. The same > kind of distortion, at times even spiteful criticism he displays in > some of his published work, notably in his attempt to exonerate German > Indology from the charge of having been affiliated with National > Socialism. There was a discussion about this last year on the list. > > With best wishes, > Eli Franco > > Quoting "Gruenendahl, Reinhold" : > >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 21:09, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> I will try to refresh Dr. Gruenendahl's memory off the list. I am sure >> >>> everybody had enough of this by now. >> >> >> >> Apologies to everybody who has had enough of this. >> >> I thank Professor Franco for his kind assistance in refreshing my memory. > As >> I see it, the significance of the case he referred to offline lies not so >> much in my agreement with Walter Slaje (actually I had endorsed his >> forwarding of third-party information), but in my perceived disagreement > with >> Professor Franco, who was not altogether disinterested in the case and its >> decision before a German court. I understand that this is the reason why he >> would rather not discuss it in public. >> >> So we still are where we were yesterday: I would have to consider Professor >> Franco's remark a mere fabrication unless he comes up with evidence that is >> presentable to the public, preferably a case in which he had no personal >> interest, if that isn't asking too much. It goes without saying that at > least >> one more example would be needed to get anywhere near the > "whenever"-pattern >> insinuated in his remark. >> >> Talking about patterns, there is another one that seems all too familiar: > "I >> have made my point, and now that I have been asked to prove it I am sure >> everyone had enough of it." >> >> Reinhold Gr?nendahl >> >> ***************************************** >> >> On 9 Mar 2009 at 17:15, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE wrote: >> >>> It is touching to see how whenever Prof. Slaje is involved in a debate >> >>> Dr. Gruenendahl comes to his rescue. >> >>> Best wishes >> >>> EF >> >> >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Mar 17 16:08:22 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 09 17:08:22 +0100 Subject: Gruenendahl, German Indology and National Socialism (Was: No longer Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <8BC98CEEFF7142C1BE592127FAF386DE@VICPC> Message-ID: <161227085386.23782.16937519229039698184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 449 Lines: 17 Dear Dr van Bijlert, May I draw your attention to my posting of yesterday, in which I asked all members of this forum to refrain from discussing this topic for at least a week. Possibly you did not see it. I must insist upon this restriction, for the sake of this forum as a useful arena for discussion of academic matters. My posting of yesterday can be checked here: http://tinyurl.com/d7pm52 -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY committee From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Wed Mar 18 10:34:54 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 09 10:34:54 +0000 Subject: Fr John K. Locke, SJ passed away Message-ID: <161227085390.23782.5625582366142277355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 418 Lines: 7 As reported by Nepalese media, Father John K. Locke, S, passed away early this morning. He spent almost his whole life in Nepal and will be remembered by all scholars of Nepalese history and culture by his insightful and detailed writings, inter alia the monographs "Karunamaya, the Cult of Avalokiteshvara-Matsyendranath in the Valley of Nepal" and "Buddhist Monasteries of Nepal". Best greetings, Axel Michaels From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 19 03:51:06 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 09 20:51:06 -0700 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <001901c9a826$fefff260$0301a8c0@Simonpoot> Message-ID: <161227085396.23782.7344665678677068111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2614 Lines: 54 If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work both in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable practice would be to publish both an English version in an international journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As Jan Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists and pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. Paul Kiparsky On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: > On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more > languages one knows, the better." > > Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the > consumer or recipient of texts. Active researchers are also > producers of texts, and must produce them in one language or > another. From this perspective, one's work will be inaccessible to > those who lack facility with the language in which it is presented; > and the choice of language is therefore a choice of audience. > > On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of > embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my > contemporaries that the journals and publishers we have been led to > believe are most highly esteemed by our institutional elders (in > whose hands our careers lie) tend to be those which most of our > desired audience cannot access. One cannot but suppose that, as a > result, most of the discourse that there is on indological subjects > occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain recent > discoveries in indology. > > The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a > higher and higher fraction of British indological research in > recent years. My perception is that the AHRC are increasingly > concerned to ensure that the projects they fund have outputs > accessible beyond the university sector. Perhaps, then, pretty > soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not to be made > freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. > > Simon Brodbeck > Cardiff University From brodbecksp at CF.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 00:09:38 2009 From: brodbecksp at CF.AC.UK (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 00:09:38 +0000 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085393.23782.7612264455852030418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1504 Lines: 31 On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages one knows, the better." Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and must produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's work will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in which it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of audience. On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries that the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) tend to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot but suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain recent discoveries in indology. The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher and higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that the projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University From ocattedra at YAHOO.COM.AR Thu Mar 19 16:26:03 2009 From: ocattedra at YAHOO.COM.AR (olivia cattedra) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 09:26:03 -0700 Subject: about Sanatsujata in spanish Message-ID: <161227085451.23782.18069121788287306968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 333 Lines: 23 dear Colleagues Please, I would like to know if there is some other translation of the Sanatsujatiya in spanish, besides the one I published in 2007 in Buenos Aires, thank you very much, Prof. Olivia Cattedra FASTA - Argentina Yahoo! Cocina Recetas pr?cticas y comida saludable http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ From mnstorm at MAC.COM Thu Mar 19 05:02:49 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 10:32:49 +0530 Subject: Bangles Message-ID: <161227085400.23782.1292912477919479482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 708 Lines: 32 Dear Indologists, I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research project on the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer up some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by Sarojini Naidu. Any help would be most appreciated. Thank you so much for your thoughts! Mary Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India From brendan.gillon at MCGILL.CA Thu Mar 19 15:17:35 2009 From: brendan.gillon at MCGILL.CA (Brendan Gillon) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 11:17:35 -0400 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: <20090319150915.A45ABBBC022@asmx5.McGill.CA> Message-ID: <161227085433.23782.17950609330706720270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 826 Lines: 28 Dear colleagues, I am hoping that someone might be able to direct me to a source which might give me a rough idea of the comparison of the classical heritage of India versus the classical heritage of Europe from Greece and Rome. What I have in mind is something like a first order approximation of the relative sizes of the literature, the manuscripts and their cataloging. Clearly, this must be done for some arbitrarily chosen cut off date. Best wishes, Brendan Gillon -- Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Department of Linguistics McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 H3A 1A7 CANADA webpage: http://www.mcgill.ca/linguistics/people/gillon/ From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Mar 19 16:29:17 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 11:29:17 -0500 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085454.23782.11867404163113472840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 414 Lines: 15 One might also mention the Tibetan tradition that Sa skya Pa.n.dita's (1182-1251) great pramaa.na work, the Tshad ma rigs gter (Pramaa.nayukanidhi), was translated into Sanskrit, though, as with the Daodejing, there is no surviving evidence. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI Thu Mar 19 09:49:18 2009 From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 11:49:18 +0200 Subject: Bangles In-Reply-To: <6D4A4C70-6C88-4D01-AE7D-E8B1B04E4556@mac.com> Message-ID: <161227085407.23782.2053132802360178194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1012 Lines: 45 On Harappan and later Indian bangle cult see my book "Deciphering the Indus script" (Cambridge UP 1994), p. 225ff. With best wishes, Asko Parpola Professor emeritus of Indology University of Helsinki Quoting "Mary Storm" : > Dear Indologists, > > I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research project > on the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images > (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic > references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer > up some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by > Sarojini Naidu. > > Any help would be most appreciated. > > Thank you so much for your thoughts! > > Mary > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India > > From toke_knudsen at MAC.COM Thu Mar 19 17:22:10 2009 From: toke_knudsen at MAC.COM (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 13:22:10 -0400 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085466.23782.5613519741173792314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 597 Lines: 17 On Mar 19, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Further to Richard's comments, I heard David Pingree say in > conversation that there might be 30 million Sanskrit manuscripts in > the world today, if one took into account all the MSS in private > collections. Unfortunately, I never asked him how he got that > figure (did anyone else hear this estimate from him?). I heard that figure from him as well. In fact, he put it in writing once in a personal letter to me. Unfortunately, I don't know where he got that figure from either. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen From sellmers at GMX.DE Thu Mar 19 12:23:47 2009 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 13:23:47 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085414.23782.4626579440184728454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 676 Lines: 25 Dear Colleagues, lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the full sense). Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Thu Mar 19 12:25:39 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 13:25:39 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <965fdc5f0903190147k465eae67p301d2276bdba600e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085417.23782.16255106296829666257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 6180 Lines: 141 As a contribution to the debate, I would like to mention another parameter, namely the legal constraints that vary from country to country. It is (in normal conditions) against the law to write a Ph.D. thesis in English if you study at a French university. See the following link: where you will find the "Article 11", of the "LOI n? 94-665 du 4 ao?t 1994 relative ? l'emploi de la langue fran?aise" (known as "Loi Toubon") which says: "La langue de l'enseignement, des examens et concours, ainsi que des th?ses et m?moires dans les ?tablissements publics et priv?s d'enseignement est le fran?ais, sauf exceptions justifi?es par les n?cessit?s de l'enseignement des langues et cultures r?gionales ou ?trang?res ou lorsque les enseignants sont des professeurs associ?s ou invit?s ?trangers." I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in English, but I would like to have confirmation of that fact. I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis must be in italian. What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a Ph.D. thesis in Sanskrit? The consequence of the French legal constraints is that a French Ph.D. thesis in the field of Indology has to be translated into English before it can hope to reach an international audience (and translation into Sanskrit, or Tamil, can probably only be viewed as a third step). Of course, there are people in France who realize that this situation is problematic, but there are other people who fight strongly against any change. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) veeranarayana Pandurangi a ?crit : > Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. > > It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. What I pointed is > that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, prof. Stall and very few others have > contributed very much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject that > prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these researches are in english, which > is mostly onknown to most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars > who fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's tradition. simlar is > the case of other shastras still rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, > Vyakarana, Mimamsa, Vedanta, Sahitya. [...] > > > Hence those writing in socalled international language i.e. English should > also publish in samskrita (not sanskrit) and technical language that > includes and that is original to paninian tradition, then the intended > result can be acheived. people should be made aware of these things. Many of > you may know oldtimer pandita manners very well while visiting india. > > [....] > > Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. Sure I know that will > have their no impact on their career in US universities and elsewhere, but > then english writing will have no result though writer may become profesor. > > I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in english or language > itself, the sin is shared by Pandits also by not responding to these > writngs. but then there come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance to > overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only contribute more to > language he studies, and nothing udesired thing will happen. > > This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. > > It is upto the scholars to workout. > veeranarayana > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky > wrote: > > >> If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint >> audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European >> countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work both >> in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the >> national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable >> practice would be to publish both an English version in an international >> journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As Jan >> Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third >> International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made >> available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists and >> pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step >> to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding >> with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. >> >> Paul Kiparsky >> >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: >> >> On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages one >> >>> knows, the better." >>> >>> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or >>> recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and must >>> produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's work >>> will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in which >>> it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of >>> audience. >>> >>> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of >>> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries that >>> the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >>> esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) tend >>> to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot but >>> suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on >>> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain >>> recent discoveries in indology. >>> >>> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher and >>> higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My >>> perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that the >>> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. >>> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not >>> to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. >>> >>> Simon Brodbeck >>> Cardiff University >>> >>> > > > From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Thu Mar 19 08:47:17 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 14:17:17 +0530 Subject: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085403.23782.963061868516744149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 6281 Lines: 128 Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. What I pointed is that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, prof. Stall and very few others have contributed very much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject that prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these researches are in english, which is mostly onknown to most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars who fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's tradition. simlar is the case of other shastras still rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, Vyakarana, Mimamsa, Vedanta, Sahitya. How many peple have studied Prof. Gershheimer's shaktivada translation in french? who has reveiwed it? what about Wada's tranlsation of siddhantalakshana? what about Ingalls' Vyaptipacaka? many more cases are there. Unless many of these people accept or atleast discuss what Prof. Kiparsky or some other has said, how it can be a siddhanta? or what result it will produce? since there are very few schloars in west who understand all these intricate issues; may be 10-15. I may also be wrong, but considering the recent paninian and Nyaya bibliography it seems to be true. People should be allowed to know what you have written. *Hence the fact remains that Prof. Kiparsky is still unknown to Paninians. and similarly if somebody criticises Kiparsky in sanskrit thesis *(*It happened with a student who worked under Prof. KV Ramakrishnamacharyulu on his Ph.D, and it happened only because of Prof. KV Ramakrishnamacharyulu*) kiparsky does not come to know it. *This is the barrier*. Many of the recent samskrita works still not catalogued in even Karl potter bibliography. what this means?. it may be a fault of indian people not to have catalogued it. but then what Karl potter bibliography is doing? no samskrita papers published in the journals of samskrita universities are valued catalogued there. This is the communication gap. Hence those writing in socalled international language i.e. English should also publish in samskrita (not sanskrit) and technical language that includes and that is original to paninian tradition, then the intended result can be acheived. people should be made aware of these things. Many of you may know oldtimer pandita manners very well while visiting india. That was what planned and executed, once in 1983, by prof. Dayakrishna when the russlian theory of preposition was traslated into sanskrit and sent to many repute scholars including Prof. Badarinatha Shukla et all, well in advance, and then make them discuss that thing. Outcome is published in "Samvada" ICPR, 1991. That is how Dayakrishan became aware of the indian naiyayika tradition and tried to do something for that. Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. Sure I know that will have their no impact on their career in US universities and elsewhere, but then english writing will have no result though writer may become profesor. I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in english or language itself, the sin is shared by Pandits also by not responding to these writngs. but then there come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance to overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only contribute more to language he studies, and nothing udesired thing will happen. This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. It is upto the scholars to workout. veeranarayana On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky wrote: > If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint > audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European > countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work both > in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the > national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable > practice would be to publish both an English version in an international > journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As Jan > Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third > International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made > available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists and > pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step > to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding > with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. > > Paul Kiparsky > > > > On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: > > On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages one >> knows, the better." >> >> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or >> recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and must >> produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's work >> will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in which >> it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of >> audience. >> >> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of >> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries that >> the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >> esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) tend >> to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot but >> suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on >> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain >> recent discoveries in indology. >> >> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher and >> higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My >> perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that the >> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. >> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not >> to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. >> >> Simon Brodbeck >> Cardiff University >> > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From avandergeer at PLANET.NL Thu Mar 19 13:37:44 2009 From: avandergeer at PLANET.NL (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 14:37:44 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085424.23782.7728230498361192140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 6639 Lines: 154 Same is valid for Greek universities: PhD theses should be written in Greek. There is, however, a change, it is under certain circumstances allowed to write in English (but with permission from all committee members, so forget it). Alexandra ________________________________ Van: Indology namens Jean-Luc Chevillard Verzonden: do 19-3-2009 14:25 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers As a contribution to the debate, I would like to mention another parameter, namely the legal constraints that vary from country to country. It is (in normal conditions) against the law to write a Ph.D. thesis in English if you study at a French university. See the following link: where you will find the "Article 11", of the "LOI n? 94-665 du 4 ao?t 1994 relative ? l'emploi de la langue fran?aise" (known as "Loi Toubon") which says: "La langue de l'enseignement, des examens et concours, ainsi que des th?ses et m?moires dans les ?tablissements publics et priv?s d'enseignement est le fran?ais, sauf exceptions justifi?es par les n?cessit?s de l'enseignement des langues et cultures r?gionales ou ?trang?res ou lorsque les enseignants sont des professeurs associ?s ou invit?s ?trangers." I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in English, but I would like to have confirmation of that fact. I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis must be in italian. What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a Ph.D. thesis in Sanskrit? The consequence of the French legal constraints is that a French Ph.D. thesis in the field of Indology has to be translated into English before it can hope to reach an international audience (and translation into Sanskrit, or Tamil, can probably only be viewed as a third step). Of course, there are people in France who realize that this situation is problematic, but there are other people who fight strongly against any change. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) veeranarayana Pandurangi a ?crit : > Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. > > It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. What I pointed is > that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, prof. Stall and very few others have > contributed very much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject that > prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these researches are in english, which > is mostly onknown to most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars > who fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's tradition. simlar is > the case of other shastras still rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, > Vyakarana, Mimamsa, Vedanta, Sahitya. [...] > > > Hence those writing in socalled international language i.e. English should > also publish in samskrita (not sanskrit) and technical language that > includes and that is original to paninian tradition, then the intended > result can be acheived. people should be made aware of these things. Many of > you may know oldtimer pandita manners very well while visiting india. > > [....] > > Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. Sure I know that will > have their no impact on their career in US universities and elsewhere, but > then english writing will have no result though writer may become profesor. > > I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in english or language > itself, the sin is shared by Pandits also by not responding to these > writngs. but then there come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance to > overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only contribute more to > language he studies, and nothing udesired thing will happen. > > This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. > > It is upto the scholars to workout. > veeranarayana > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky > wrote: > > >> If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint >> audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European >> countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work both >> in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the >> national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable >> practice would be to publish both an English version in an international >> journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As Jan >> Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third >> International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made >> available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists and >> pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step >> to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding >> with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. >> >> Paul Kiparsky >> >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: >> >> On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages one >> >>> knows, the better." >>> >>> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or >>> recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and must >>> produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's work >>> will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in which >>> it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of >>> audience. >>> >>> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of >>> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries that >>> the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >>> esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) tend >>> to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot but >>> suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on >>> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain >>> recent discoveries in indology. >>> >>> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher and >>> higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My >>> perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that the >>> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. >>> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not >>> to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. >>> >>> Simon Brodbeck >>> Cardiff University >>> >>> > > > From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Thu Mar 19 15:29:51 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 15:29:51 +0000 Subject: Scholarships Message-ID: <161227085440.23782.8660526458868775159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 841 Lines: 15 A new Round of Applications for 16 Scholarships in the PhD/Doctoral Programmes of the Graduate Programm of Transcultural Studies (GPTS) of the Excellence Cluster "Asia and Europe in a Global Context" at tHeidelberg University has been opened. The Scholarships will start in the Winter Term 2009/2010. Students of Indology with a transcultural interest are also invited to apply. You are asked to register before you can fill in the application form. Only applications submitted via the online application system will be considered. Applications by mail or e-mail will not be eligible. Deadline for Application is May 1st 2009. For further information see: http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/Plone/graduate-programme Kindly forward this information to students who are qualified and interested. Best greetings, Axel Michaels From richard.gombrich at BALLIOL.OX.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 15:38:16 2009 From: richard.gombrich at BALLIOL.OX.AC.UK (Richard Gombrich) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 15:38:16 +0000 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085446.23782.130410174115443944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2243 Lines: 55 Dear colleagues, I remember that the late Prof. David Pingree once said to me in conversation that there were about 30,000 surviving mss of ancient Greek, a smaller number of Latin, and several million of Sanskrit. The trouble is, of course, that one is never comparing like with like. Almost all the surviving Sanskrit mss have been produced within the last millennium; the vast majority, indeed, within the last half millennium. The production of mss in Latin and Greek was coming to an end 500 years ago, and I believe that virtually no texts physically survive from classical antiquity. Inscriptions of course are negligible in physical quantity compared to the kind of texts I mean. If we are talking of surviving texts rather than physical survivals, Julius Caesar, by burning the library of Alexandria, deprived us of a large part of our potential classical heritage. Even so, I fancy that the bulk of surviving Sanskrit texts would be far larger than the bulk of Latin and Greek texts combined, including those we know to be lost. True, much depends on the cutoff date you choose for Sanskrit. However, Vedic and Epic literature alone, before we even get to what we normally think of as Sanskrit classical literature, are of formidable size. Richard Gombrich On 19 Mar 2009, at 15:17, Brendan Gillon wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I am hoping that someone might be able to direct me to a source > which might give me a rough idea of the comparison of the classical > heritage of India versus the classical heritage of Europe from > Greece and Rome. What I have in mind is something like a first order > approximation of the relative sizes of the literature, the > manuscripts and their cataloging. Clearly, this must be done for > some arbitrarily chosen cut off date. > > Best wishes, > > Brendan Gillon > > > -- > > Brendan S. Gillon email: > brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca > Department of Linguistics > McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 > 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield > Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 H3A > 1A7 CANADA > > webpage: http://www.mcgill.ca/linguistics/people/gillon/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 14:51:56 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 15:51:56 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <49C239C3.9060604@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227085427.23782.2645272118173716689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 363 Lines: 14 > I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in English, but I > would like to have confirmation of that fact. I think different German universities have different regulations, but at the Univ. of Bonn, it is certainly permissible to submit a PhD in English or German. Or Latin, still, I believe. But not Sanskrit. :-) Dominik Wujastyk From lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO Thu Mar 19 15:07:47 2009 From: lmfosse at GETMAIL.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 16:07:47 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085430.23782.18317821732883221530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1262 Lines: 48 A large number of Norwegian doctoral theses and scholarly papers are written in English as a matter of course. Now exhortations are handed out to use Norwegian, so that Norwegian should not wither and die as a language for academic purposes. A pretty hopeless proposition, by the way, since most people outside Scandinavia are unable to read Norwegian. Best regards Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at getmail.no > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Dominik Wujastyk > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 3:52 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: > Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written > in English, > > but I would like to have confirmation of that fact. > > I think different German universities have different > regulations, but at the Univ. of Bonn, it is certainly > permissible to submit a PhD in English or German. Or Latin, > still, I believe. > > But not Sanskrit. :-) > > > Dominik Wujastyk From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 15:28:32 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 16:28:32 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <68117990-EA1E-4729-B80E-23E7D253A8A9@gmx.de> Message-ID: <161227085437.23782.12445631456126139160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1659 Lines: 50 Samr?? Jagann?tha translated Euclid into Sanskrit at the court of Jayasi?ha (1688-1743). Ed by Kamal??a?kara Pr??a?a?kara Trived?, Bombay: Nir?asas?gara Press, 1901. It was the Nasir ad-Din al-Tusi's Arabic tr. of Euclid that was translated, not the original Greek. Michael Dodson has written a good article on Ballantyne's 19th century efforts in Benares to present European science of the time in Sanskrit treatises. He and his pandits produced treatises for example on chemistry, the moon, and other topics. See http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=100309 Lancelot Wilkinson and his pandit Bapu Deva Sastri too worked on translating Arabic and European astronomical treatises into Sanskrit. See Minikowski's paper in Michaels' book The Pandit (http://books.google.com/books?id=0TtuAAAAMAAJ&pgis=1) and other papers. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that > this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware > of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to > learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally > composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I > would consider translations in the full sense). > > Best wishes, > Sven Sellmer > > ************************************ > Dr. Sven Sellmer > Adam Mickiewicz University > Institute of Oriental Studies > South Asia Unit > ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 > 61-485 Pozna? > POLAND > sven at amu.edu.pl From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 15:32:55 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 16:32:55 +0100 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085443.23782.11775525739331463527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 874 Lines: 37 Dear Brendan, It's not exactly what you ask, but a little while ago I was thinking quantitively about this too, and came up with the estimate that the Sanskrit knowledge formation (need a better term) is the product of approximately 100 generations of brahmana families. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Brendan Gillon wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I am hoping that someone might be able to direct me to a source which might > give me a rough idea of the comparison of the classical heritage of India > versus the classical heritage of Europe from Greece and Rome. What I have in > mind is something like a first order approximation of the relative sizes of > the literature, the manuscripts and their cataloging. Clearly, this must be > done for some arbitrarily chosen cut off date. > > Best wishes, > > Brendan Gillon > > > > From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Thu Mar 19 16:23:44 2009 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 17:23:44 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <68117990-EA1E-4729-B80E-23E7D253A8A9@gmx.de> Message-ID: <161227085448.23782.8935557169142991074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1734 Lines: 40 Am Donnerstag, den 19.03.2009, 13:23 +0100 schrieb Sven Sellmer: > lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed > that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is > anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I > would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into > Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle > Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the > full sense). There is a legend that the Daode jing (or Tao te king if you like) has been translated into Sanskrit. The legend is found in a 7th century Buddhist compilation (Ji gujin fodao lunheng, Taisho Nr. 2104). See Paul Pelliot: "Autour d'une traduction sanscrite to Tao-t? king". In: T'oung Pao 13 (1912), p. 351-430 (esp. p. 381 seqq.). It is said that the king of Kamarupa asked the Chinese traveller Li Yibiao to translate Laozi's work. According to the mentioned work (Ji gujin fodao lunheng), a committee of Daoist and Buddhist scholars with Xuanzang as one its prominent members came together to execute this task. Of course, nothing of this kind survived. Perhaps the Samudrasangama belongs here, too. This is the Sanskrit version of Dara Shukoh's Majma ul-Bahrain (written in Persian). It is said to be composed in Sanskrit by the author himself in 1657, the same year when the Persian original came out. See e.g. Roma Chaudhuri: A critical study of Dara Shikuh's Samudra-Sangama. Vol. 1. Calcutta 1954 (vol. 2 contains the text edition by Jatindra Bimal Chaudhuri). Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Thu Mar 19 12:09:44 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 17:39:44 +0530 Subject: clinking, silent and slipping bangles In-Reply-To: <6D4A4C70-6C88-4D01-AE7D-E8B1B04E4556@mac.com> Message-ID: <161227085410.23782.3024059888185876251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2795 Lines: 86 As with images of bangles, there must be hundreds of literary passages to which one could refer. But does "bangle" in this project include all the various ornaments that can be worn on an arm or a leg (keyuura, valaya, a"ngada, nuupura, parihaa.taka, ma~njiira, ka.taka, ka"nka.na, etc.) and all their various associations ? Hearing the delicious clinking of bangles is clearly widely regarded as a very high pleasure, as, for instance, this verse of the Vairaagya"sataka attests. agre giita.m sarasakavaya.h paar"svayor daak.si.naatyaa.h pa"scaal liilaavalayara.nita.m caamaragraahi.niinaam| yady astv eva.m kuru bhavarasaasvaadane lampa.tatva.m no cec ceta.h pravi"sa sahasaa nirvikalpe samaadhau|| And such clinking is very often erotic ("S.r"ngaara"sataka): etaa"s caladvalayasa.mhatimekhalotthajha.mkaaranuupuraparaajitaraajaha.msya.h| kurvanti kasya na mano viva"sa.m taru.nyo vitrastamugdhahari.niisad.r"sai.h ka.taak.sai.h|| Conversely, when bangles fall off and are silent, this can be full of poignant sadness (e.g. Siitaa's anklet in the Raghuvam"sa (13.23)): e.saa sthalii yatra vicinvataa tvaa.m bhra.s.ta.m mayaa nuupuram ekam uurvyaam| ad.r"syata tvaccara.naaravindavi"sle.sadu.hkhaad iva baddhamaunam And when they slip off this is likely to be a symptom of emaciation, often the fifth stage of love (smarada"saa). I wonder whether this last topos of bangles slipping off women and men as a result of love first appears in Old Tamil poetry or in Sanskrit. The following verse of Kaalidaasa (in act 3 of "Sakuntalaa) describes King Du.syanta: idam a"si"sirair antastaapaad vivar.nama.niik.rtam ni"si ni"si bhujanyastaapaa"ngaprasaaribhir a"srubhi.h| anabhilulitajyaaghaataa"nka.m muhur ma.nibandhanaat kanakavalaya.m srasta.m srasta.m mayaa pratisaaryate|| But when does that topos first make its appearance in Sanskrit literature? Dominic Goodall Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), Pondicherry On 19 Mar 2009, at 10:32, Mary Storm wrote: > Dear Indologists, > > I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research project > on the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images > (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic > references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer > up some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by > Sarojini Naidu. > > Any help would be most appreciated. > > Thank you so much for your thoughts! > > Mary > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 16:56:07 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 17:56:07 +0100 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085456.23782.16758532100688770556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3307 Lines: 76 Further to Richard's comments, I heard David Pingree say in conversation that there might be 30 million Sanskrit manuscripts in the world today, if one took into account all the MSS in private collections. Unfortunately, I never asked him how he got that figure (did anyone else hear this estimate from him?). The National Mission for Manuscripts (http://www.namami.org/) works with a figure of seven million, if I remember correctly. NAMAMI has conducted surveys, the results of which are here: http://www.namami.org/nationalsurvey.htm I find the results raise questions for me: the numbers of MSS seem rather low. Maybe they are only looking at non-library repositories? There are other questions: In 2004-5, in Bihar, Orissa and UP, 650,000 manuscripts were documented in about 35,000 repositories. That means each repository had 18.6 MSS. Nobody has that few MSS. If you walk into almost any brahman home, there's an almira somewhere that's packed with MSS. I would estimate 100-500 MSS is typical of a domestic collection, with numbers easily rising to a couple of thousand. For example, during a visit to the Alwar branch of the RORI a few years ago, I took some notes about donated MS acquisitions added subsequent to the Maharaja's palace collection: Donor Number of MSS Pt Poorna Malji 200 Pt Laxmi Kantji 200 Pt Ram Dattaji 335 Sarvashir Pt Pitamer Das 60 Nandan Lalji Misra 42 Ramesh Chandraji Bhargava 144 Thakur Chiddu Singh 59 Shankar Lalji 104 Pyare Lalji Sharma 5 Amarnathji Sarasvat 166 Pt Shiv Dattaji 500 The Peterson catalogue lists 2478 MSS in 1892; by 1985 there were 6711 MSS, of which 1687 were by donation by the above-listed gentlemen. Again, there are lots of open questions here. What is the demographic of pandits or families willing to donate their MSS to RORI? What are the social pressures to do so, or not to do so? Is it meritorious? Is it more meritorious to throw MSS into a river (as documented by Prof. KT Pandurangi in his 1978 booklet "The Wealth of Sanskrit Manuscripts in India and Abroad" (http://books.google.nl/books?id=ahZ2AAAAIAAJ). Are there large, undonated collections? One valuable policy of the RORI branches is that they put the name of the donor pandit on a large label on top of the almira with his MSS. A sense of identity, continuity and family pride is preserved in this way. It might seem a small thing, but it's important. Final point for now: rough calculations based on collection-wide statistics for MS corpora such as those documented in VOHD show that MSS having dated colophons number about 15% of a typical collection, and that THE MEDIAN DATE FOR SURVIVING SANSKRIT MSS IS 1830 I've shouted that statement because it is so extraordinary. It is explicable as the result of two historical facts. First, the destruction of MSS preceding this date. (Pingree, again, said that a paper Sanskrit MS physically lasted about 200 years.) Second, the advent of widespread printing in the second half of the nineteenth century, leading to the demise of the scribal profession. If Pingree's 200 year figure is roughly right, the majority of surviving paper Skt MSS have about 20 years left before disappearing just from old age. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk From donovevs at LIBERO.IT Thu Mar 19 16:57:31 2009 From: donovevs at LIBERO.IT (donovevs@libero.it) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 17:57:31 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085459.23782.339044976034846078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1003 Lines: 50 The Raajavyavahaarakoza is a lexicon of Sanskrit equivalents to (mostly) Persian administrative terms; it was prepared on Shivaji?s behalf by Raghunaatha (ca. 1676). Regards, Svevo D?Onofrio Department of Linguistic and Oriental Studies University of Bologna (Italy) On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: Dear Colleagues, lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the full sense). Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK Thu Mar 19 17:57:39 2009 From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 17:57:39 +0000 Subject: Translations from Tamil into Sanskrit (Re: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <49C27BE7.10803@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227085468.23782.2543586022141197330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3380 Lines: 104 I've been told that the Tamil Periyapuraa.nam of Ceekki_laar (ca. 1140 CE) was translated into Sanskrit as the "Sivabhaktavilaasa, attributed to the sage Upamanyu and assigned a locus of attribution in the Skandapuraa.na. A brief look in some library catalogues (SOAS, Chicago, BL) didn't turn up any references to this text, but there is a Telugu translation (as the "Srii"sivebhaktavilaasamu, the details available at the URL pasted below). http://libcat.uchicago.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=12374I4M28801.170989&profile=ucpublic&uri=full=3100001~!6161913~!8&ri=5&aspect=subtab13&menu=search&source=~!horizon Also, R. Vijayalakshmy established some years ago that the Tamil Ciivakacintaama.ni served as the basis of a Sanskrit version of the story of the Jaina kaamadeva Jiivandhara and not the other way around, as had previously been thought. The details of this Sanskrit text aren't coming to me at the moment; see her 1981 publication A Study of the Ciivakacintaama.ni (Ahmedabad: L.D. Institute of Indology). Whitney Cox 2009/3/19 Jean-Luc Chevillard : > If you are interested in translations from Tamil into Sanskrit, > you can have a look at the following book: > > /Un texte tamoul de d?votion vishnouite: le Tirupp?vai d'?????/, Jean > FILLIOZAT, Institut Fran?ais d'Indology, Publication N?45, 1972 > > It contains: > > -- an introduction [pp. vii-xxiii] > > -- a bibliography [pp. xxiv-xxvii] > > -- the (original Tamil) text of the /Tirupp?vai/, along with a French > translation [pp. 2-31] > > -- notes [pp. 33-56] > > -- the TIRUPP?VAI SA?SK?T?NUVY?KHY?NAM (by ?r?ra?gar?m?nujasv?mi) [pp. > 57-67] > > -- a French translation ("Commentaire perp?tuel sanskrit par > ?r?ra?gar?m?nujasv?mi [pp.69-79] > > -- the ?R?VRATA? (TIRUPP?VAI) > > -- a French translation (?R?VRATA, LE VOEU DE FORTUNE) [pp. 87-92] > > -- an INDEX [pp. 93-116] > > In the introduction (p. xxii), Jean Filliozat writes: > "Le /Tirupp?vai/ a ?t? aussi trois fois au moins traduit en sanskrit. ..." > > He then gives details concerning the first 2 translations, included in the > book, and the third one, not included, which exists as a manuscript in the > EFEO library in Pondicherry (n? EFEO 64). > > I should add that the /Tirupp?vai/ is dated by Kamil Zvelebil in the 8th > century. (/Lexicon of Tamil Literature/, Brill, 1995, p. 685) > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard > (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) > > > > Sven Sellmer a ?crit : >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that >> this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware >> of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to >> learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally >> composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I >> would consider translations in the full sense). >> >> Best wishes, >> Sven Sellmer >> >> ************************************ >> Dr. Sven Sellmer >> Adam Mickiewicz University >> Institute of Oriental Studies >> South Asia Unit >> ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 >> 61-485 Pozna? >> POLAND >> sven at amu.edu.pl >> > -- Dr. Whitney Cox Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Thu Mar 19 17:07:51 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 18:07:51 +0100 Subject: Translations from Tamil into Sanskrit (Re: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <68117990-EA1E-4729-B80E-23E7D253A8A9@gmx.de> Message-ID: <161227085461.23782.13035677998470705713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2014 Lines: 71 If you are interested in translations from Tamil into Sanskrit, you can have a look at the following book: /Un texte tamoul de d?votion vishnouite: le Tirupp?vai d'?????/, Jean FILLIOZAT, Institut Fran?ais d'Indology, Publication N?45, 1972 It contains: -- an introduction [pp. vii-xxiii] -- a bibliography [pp. xxiv-xxvii] -- the (original Tamil) text of the /Tirupp?vai/, along with a French translation [pp. 2-31] -- notes [pp. 33-56] -- the TIRUPP?VAI SA?SK?T?NUVY?KHY?NAM (by ?r?ra?gar?m?nujasv?mi) [pp. 57-67] -- a French translation ("Commentaire perp?tuel sanskrit par ?r?ra?gar?m?nujasv?mi [pp.69-79] -- the ?R?VRATA? (TIRUPP?VAI) -- a French translation (?R?VRATA, LE VOEU DE FORTUNE) [pp. 87-92] -- an INDEX [pp. 93-116] In the introduction (p. xxii), Jean Filliozat writes: "Le /Tirupp?vai/ a ?t? aussi trois fois au moins traduit en sanskrit. ..." He then gives details concerning the first 2 translations, included in the book, and the third one, not included, which exists as a manuscript in the EFEO library in Pondicherry (n? EFEO 64). I should add that the /Tirupp?vai/ is dated by Kamil Zvelebil in the 8th century. (/Lexicon of Tamil Literature/, Brill, 1995, p. 685) -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) Sven Sellmer a ?crit : > Dear Colleagues, > > lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed > that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is > anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I > would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into > Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle > Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the > full sense). > > Best wishes, > Sven Sellmer > > ************************************ > Dr. Sven Sellmer > Adam Mickiewicz University > Institute of Oriental Studies > South Asia Unit > ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 > 61-485 Pozna? > POLAND > sven at amu.edu.pl > From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Mar 19 17:21:43 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 18:21:43 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085464.23782.12681885274654236880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1061 Lines: 35 At the University of Leipzig dissertations can be written in all major languages, pending on permission by the faculty, which is almost automatically granted. We had a couple of dissertations in Spanish recently and of course many more in English. The regulations may differ not only from one university to another, but also for different faculties within the same university. There are probably some faculties where one can still submit dissertations in Latin. Best wishes EF Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : >> I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in >> English, but I would like to have confirmation of that fact. > > I think different German universities have different regulations, > but at the Univ. of Bonn, it is certainly permissible to submit a > PhD in English or German. Or Latin, still, I believe. > > But not Sanskrit. :-) > > > Dominik Wujastyk > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Thu Mar 19 13:21:40 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 18:51:40 +0530 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers In-Reply-To: <49C239C3.9060604@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227085420.23782.12349506906575521467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 7521 Lines: 193 Offcourse French language patriotism of French people is well known fact. The situation may be same in other countries. Hence I understand that thing. I acknowledged that even in my first mail that started the debate. But I hope that does not prevent authors of non-doctoral works to writen in samskrita. But In india it is vastly different. earlier the doctoral theses used to be only in English, then they came in other regional languages also. Finally then it is free for all. If somebody is student in Bangalore university (Samskrita dept) he can write in english, Kannada, or Samskrita, but, I think, not in telugu. similarly Rajasthan University allows one write in Hindi English and Samskrita. *But all Samskrita universities (12) have uniform rule to have theses in Samskrita only.* veeranarayana On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard < jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > As a contribution to the debate, I would like to mention another parameter, > namely the legal constraints that vary from country to country. > > It is (in normal conditions) against the law to write a Ph.D. thesis in > English if you study at a French university. > > See the following link: > > > > where you will find the "Article 11", of the "LOI n? 94-665 du 4 ao?t 1994 > relative ? l'emploi de la langue fran?aise" (known as "Loi Toubon") which > says: > > "La langue de l'enseignement, des examens et concours, ainsi que des th?ses > et m?moires dans les ?tablissements publics et priv?s d'enseignement est le > fran?ais, sauf exceptions justifi?es par les n?cessit?s de l'enseignement > des langues et cultures r?gionales ou ?trang?res ou lorsque les enseignants > sont des professeurs associ?s ou invit?s ?trangers." > > I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in English, but > I would like to have confirmation of that fact. > > I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis must be in italian. > > What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a Ph.D. thesis in > Sanskrit? > > The consequence of the French legal constraints is that a French Ph.D. > thesis in the field of Indology has to be translated into English before it > can hope to reach an international audience > (and translation into Sanskrit, or Tamil, can probably only be viewed as a > third step). > > Of course, there are people in France who realize that this situation is > problematic, but there are other people who fight strongly against any > change. > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) > > > veeranarayana Pandurangi a ?crit : > >> Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. >> >> It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. What I pointed is >> that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, prof. Stall and very few others have >> contributed very much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject that >> prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these researches are in english, >> which >> is mostly onknown to most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars >> who fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's tradition. simlar is >> the case of other shastras still rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, >> Vyakarana, Mimamsa, Vedanta, Sahitya. [...] >> >> >> Hence those writing in socalled international language i.e. English should >> also publish in samskrita (not sanskrit) and technical language that >> includes and that is original to paninian tradition, then the intended >> result can be acheived. people should be made aware of these things. Many >> of >> you may know oldtimer pandita manners very well while visiting india. >> >> [....] >> >> Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. Sure I know that >> will >> have their no impact on their career in US universities and elsewhere, but >> then english writing will have no result though writer may become >> profesor. >> >> I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in english or language >> itself, the sin is shared by Pandits also by not responding to these >> writngs. but then there come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance >> to >> overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only contribute more to >> language he studies, and nothing udesired thing will happen. >> >> This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. >> >> It is upto the scholars to workout. >> veeranarayana >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint >>> audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European >>> countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work >>> both >>> in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the >>> national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable >>> practice would be to publish both an English version in an international >>> journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As >>> Jan >>> Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent >>> Third >>> International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made >>> available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists >>> and >>> pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a >>> step >>> to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding >>> with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. >>> >>> Paul Kiparsky >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: >>> >>> On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages >>> one >>> >>> >>>> knows, the better." >>>> >>>> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or >>>> recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and >>>> must >>>> produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's >>>> work >>>> will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in >>>> which >>>> it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of >>>> audience. >>>> >>>> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of >>>> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries >>>> that >>>> the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >>>> esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) >>>> tend >>>> to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot >>>> but >>>> suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on >>>> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of >>>> certain >>>> recent discoveries in indology. >>>> >>>> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher >>>> and >>>> higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My >>>> perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that >>>> the >>>> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. >>>> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are >>>> not >>>> to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. >>>> >>>> Simon Brodbeck >>>> Cardiff University >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU Fri Mar 20 02:42:19 2009 From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 19:42:19 -0700 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085486.23782.5537882063624066330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3660 Lines: 85 The statement "If you walk into almost any brahman home, there's an almira somewhere that's packed with MSS." is grossly exaggerated. It applies to a few homes of brahman families in traditional areas. > Further to Richard's comments, I heard David Pingree say in conversation > that there might be 30 million Sanskrit manuscripts in the world today, if > one took into account all the MSS in private collections. Unfortunately, > I never asked him how he got that figure (did anyone else hear this > estimate from him?). The National Mission for Manuscripts > (http://www.namami.org/) works with a figure of seven million, if I > remember correctly. NAMAMI has conducted surveys, the results of which > are here: > > http://www.namami.org/nationalsurvey.htm > > I find the results raise questions for me: the numbers of MSS seem rather > low. Maybe they are only looking at non-library repositories? There are > other questions: In 2004-5, in Bihar, Orissa and UP, 650,000 manuscripts > were documented in about 35,000 repositories. That means each repository > had 18.6 MSS. Nobody has that few MSS. If you walk into almost any > brahman home, there's an almira somewhere that's packed with MSS. I would > estimate 100-500 MSS is typical of a domestic collection, with numbers > easily rising to a couple of thousand. For example, during a visit to the > Alwar branch of the RORI a few years ago, I took some notes about donated > MS acquisitions added subsequent to the Maharaja's palace collection: > > Donor Number of MSS > > Pt Poorna Malji 200 > Pt Laxmi Kantji 200 > Pt Ram Dattaji 335 > Sarvashir Pt Pitamer Das 60 > Nandan Lalji Misra 42 > Ramesh Chandraji Bhargava 144 > Thakur Chiddu Singh 59 > Shankar Lalji 104 > Pyare Lalji Sharma 5 > Amarnathji Sarasvat 166 > Pt Shiv Dattaji 500 > > The Peterson catalogue lists 2478 MSS in 1892; by 1985 there were 6711 > MSS, of which 1687 were by donation by the above-listed gentlemen. > > Again, there are lots of open questions here. What is the demographic of > pandits or families willing to donate their MSS to RORI? What are the > social pressures to do so, or not to do so? Is it meritorious? Is it > more meritorious to throw MSS into a river (as documented by Prof. KT > Pandurangi in his 1978 booklet "The Wealth of Sanskrit Manuscripts in > India and Abroad" (http://books.google.nl/books?id=ahZ2AAAAIAAJ). Are > there large, undonated collections? > > One valuable policy of the RORI branches is that they put the name of the > donor pandit on a large label on top of the almira with his MSS. A sense > of identity, continuity and family pride is preserved in this way. It > might seem a small thing, but it's important. > > Final point for now: rough calculations based on collection-wide > statistics for MS corpora such as those documented in VOHD show that MSS > having dated colophons number about 15% of a typical collection, and that > > THE MEDIAN DATE FOR SURVIVING SANSKRIT MSS IS 1830 > > I've shouted that statement because it is so extraordinary. It is > explicable as the result of two historical facts. First, the destruction > of MSS preceding this date. (Pingree, again, said that a paper Sanskrit > MS physically lasted about 200 years.) Second, the advent of widespread > printing in the second half of the nineteenth century, leading to the > demise of the scribal profession. > > If Pingree's 200 year figure is roughly right, the majority of surviving > paper Skt MSS have about 20 years left before disappearing just from old > age. > > > Best, > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal From e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM Thu Mar 19 18:54:32 2009 From: e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM (Eugen Ciurtin) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 20:54:32 +0200 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20557244.258861237481851593.JavaMail.root@wmail4.libero.it> Message-ID: <161227085471.23782.398900252292107382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2212 Lines: 89 Neriosangh, a Gujarati Parsi *dastur*, translated the Avestan Yasna into Sanskrit probably in the 15th c. This translation (discovered by Anquetil Dupperon during his stay in India) was of crucial help for Eug?ne Burnouf (1801-1852) in his comparative studies of the Avesta, mainly in *Commentaire sur le Ya?na*, Paris, 1833ff., continued in 1861 by Friedrich Spiegel in*Neriosengh?s Sanskrit-?bersetzung des Ya?na *. http://books.google.com/books?id=ULgOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=neriosengh+sanskrit&lr=&ei=1YvCSfH1K5HaMbqWvOwN&hl=ro There are other early modern Sanskrit translations of Avestic or Pahlavi Zoroastrian works (e.g. parts of the *Vendidad*, *Arda Viraz*, etc.). With best wishes, Eugen Ciurtin 2009/3/19 donovevs at libero.it > The Raajavyavahaarakoza is a lexicon of Sanskrit equivalents to (mostly) > Persian administrative terms; it was prepared on Shivaji?s behalf by > Raghunaatha (ca. 1676). > > Regards, > > Svevo D?Onofrio > > Department of Linguistic > and Oriental Studies > University of Bologna (Italy) > > > > On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven > Sellmer wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > lately I was asked about early translations > into Sanskrit and noticed > that this is quite an interesting question I know > little about. Is > anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In > particular, I > would be curious to learn about the earliest translations > into > Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle > > Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the > full > sense). > > Best wishes, > Sven Sellmer > > ************************************ > Dr. > Sven Sellmer > Adam Mickiewicz University > Institute of Oriental Studies > South > Asia Unit > ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 > 61-485 Pozna? > POLAND > sven at amu.edu.pl > -- Dr E. Ciurtin Secretary of the Romanian Association for the History of Religions www.rahr.ro Publications Officer of the European Association for the Study of Religions www.easr.de Secretary of the Scientific Council Institute for the History of Religions, Romanian Academy Calea 13 Septembrie no. 13 sect. 5, Bucharest 050711 Phone: 00 40 733 951 953 www.ihr-acad.ro From hellwig7 at GMX.DE Thu Mar 19 21:10:33 2009 From: hellwig7 at GMX.DE (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 21:10:33 +0000 Subject: PDF dictionaries Message-ID: <161227085474.23782.17524305188077155409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 222 Lines: 10 Dear list, a dictionary of the Buddhacarita and a cumulative dictionary of the Samkhyakarika (with (parts of) two commentaries) are available at www.sanskritreader.de/dictionaries/dictionaries.htm. Best, O. Hellwig From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu Mar 19 21:25:34 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 22:25:34 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085477.23782.8016287057964485763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2221 Lines: 69 There is Sanskrit translation of the Bible, printed in the grantha script, from 1863. Perhaps there are earlier ones. If I remember correctly, Sylvain Levi discusses some evidence for the translation of the Alexander Legend into Sanskrit in the early centuries CE. Best wishes, EF Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : > > Samr?? Jagann?tha translated Euclid into Sanskrit at the court of > Jayasi?ha (1688-1743). Ed by Kamal??a?kara Pr??a?a?kara Trived?, > Bombay: Nir?asas?gara Press, 1901. It was the Nasir ad-Din > al-Tusi's Arabic tr. of Euclid that was translated, not the original > Greek. > > Michael Dodson has written a good article on Ballantyne's 19th > century efforts in Benares to present European science of the time > in Sanskrit treatises. He and his pandits produced treatises for > example on chemistry, the moon, and other topics. See > http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=100309 > > Lancelot Wilkinson and his pandit Bapu Deva Sastri too worked on > translating Arabic and European astronomical treatises into > Sanskrit. See Minikowski's paper in Michaels' book The Pandit > (http://books.google.com/books?id=0TtuAAAAMAAJ&pgis=1) and other > papers. > > Best, > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > > > > > On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and >> noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little >> about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In >> particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest >> translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in >> languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would >> consider translations in the full sense). >> >> Best wishes, >> Sven Sellmer >> >> ************************************ >> Dr. Sven Sellmer >> Adam Mickiewicz University >> Institute of Oriental Studies >> South Asia Unit >> ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 >> 61-485 Pozna? >> POLAND >> sven at amu.edu.pl ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From elisa.freschi at STUDISUDASIATICI.NET Thu Mar 19 21:35:38 2009 From: elisa.freschi at STUDISUDASIATICI.NET (elisa freschi) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 22:35:38 +0100 Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers Message-ID: <161227085480.23782.2619134921268049887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 7657 Lines: 198 > I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis > must be in italian. MA thesis must be in Italian (I know of only one exception), whereas PhD thesis are normally written in Italian, but if the PhD committee members agree they can also be written in English. In the last five years this happens many times, but it is by far not the rule. elisa freschi (research felow, University 'Sapienza' Rome, Italy) ----- Original Message ----- Da : Alexandra Vandergeer A : INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Oggetto : Re: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers Data : Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:37:44 +0100 > Same is valid for Greek universities: PhD theses should be > written in Greek. There is, however, a change, it is under > certain circumstances allowed to write in English (but > with permission from all committee members, so forget it). > > Alexandra > > ________________________________ > > Van: Indology namens Jean-Luc Chevillard > Verzonden: do 19-3-2009 14:25 > Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Onderwerp: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: > Language barriers --- financial barriers > > > > As a contribution to the debate, I would like to mention > another parameter, namely the legal constraints that vary > from country to country. > > It is (in normal conditions) against the law to write a > Ph.D. thesis in English if you study at a French > university. > > See the following link: > > > > where you will find the "Article 11", of the "LOI n? > 94-665 du 4 ao?t 1994 relative ? l'emploi de la langue > fran?aise" (known as "Loi Toubon") which says: > > "La langue de l'enseignement, des examens et concours, > ainsi que des th?ses et m?moires dans les ?tablissements > publics et priv?s d'enseignement est le fran?ais, sauf > exceptions justifi?es par les n?cessit?s de l'enseignement > des langues et cultures r?gionales ou ?trang?res ou > lorsque les enseignants sont des professeurs associ?s ou > invit?s ?trangers." > > I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written > in English, but I would like to have confirmation of that > fact. > > I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis > must be in italian. > > What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a > Ph.D. thesis in Sanskrit? > > The consequence of the French legal constraints is that a > French Ph.D. thesis in the field of Indology has to be > translated into English before it can hope to reach an > international audience (and translation into Sanskrit, or > Tamil, can probably only be viewed as a third step). > > Of course, there are people in France who realize that > this situation is problematic, but there are other people > who fight strongly against any change. > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot > Paris 7) > > > veeranarayana Pandurangi a ?crit : > > Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. > > > > It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. > > What I pointed is that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, > > prof. Stall and very few others have contributed very > > much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject > that prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these > > researches are in english, which is mostly onknown to > > most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars who > fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's > > tradition. simlar is the case of other shastras still > > rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, Vyakarana, Mimamsa, > Vedanta, Sahitya. [...] > > > > > Hence those writing in socalled international language > > i.e. English should also publish in samskrita (not > > sanskrit) and technical language that includes and that > > is original to paninian tradition, then the intended > result can be acheived. people should be made aware of > > these things. Many of you may know oldtimer pandita > manners very well while visiting india. > > > [....] > > > > Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. > > Sure I know that will have their no impact on their > > career in US universities and elsewhere, but then > english writing will have no result though writer may > become profesor. > > > I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in > > english or language itself, the sin is shared by Pandits > > also by not responding to these writngs. but then there > > come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance to > overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only > > contribute more to language he studies, and nothing > udesired thing will happen. > > > This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. > > > > It is upto the scholars to workout. > > veeranarayana > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky > > wrote: > > > > > >> If you want your work to be accessible to > linguistically disjoint >> audiences, why write it up in > just one language? In smaller European >> countries it > is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work > both >> in English (or German) in an international journal > , and locally in the >> national language. For > English-speaking Indologists, the comparable >> practice > would be to publish both an English version in an > international >> journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or > Sanskrit version in India. As Jan >> Houben reported here > on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third >> > International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium > were made >> available both in English and in Sanskrit. > The traditional philologists and >> pandits who attended > the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step >> > to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual > understanding >> with English-speaking Indologists and > computational linguists. >> > >> Paul Kiparsky > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: > >> > >> On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The > more languages one >> > >>> knows, the better." > >>> > >>> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective > of the consumer or >>> recipient of texts. Active > researchers are also producers of texts, and must >>> > produce them in one language or another. From this > perspective, one's work >>> will be inaccessible to those > who lack facility with the language in which >>> it is > presented; and the choice of language is therefore a > choice of >>> audience. > >>> > >>> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing > source of >>> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and > many of my contemporaries that >>> the journals and > publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >>> > esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our > careers lie) tend >>> to be those which most of our > desired audience cannot access. One cannot but >>> suppose > that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on > >>> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically > ignorant of certain >>> recent discoveries in indology. > >>> > >>> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been > funding a higher and >>> higher fraction of British > indological research in recent years. My >>> perception is > that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that > the >>> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond > the university sector. >>> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, > projects whose principal written outputs are not >>> to be > made freely available online will simply not be publicly > funded. >>> > >>> Simon Brodbeck > >>> Cardiff University > >>> > >>> > > > > > > From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR Thu Mar 19 22:02:33 2009 From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (=?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A9rard_Huet?=) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 23:02:33 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20090319222534.32012y3uo5trir0u@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085483.23782.12697374305018201702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2824 Lines: 84 Pr Minkowski, in his Inaugural Lecture for the Boden Professorship at Oxford, tells about the Sulaimaccaitra, the Life of Sulaymaan (King Solomon). This Sanskrit text was commissioned by prince Laa.dkaan of the Lodi ruling family in Oudh around 1500. Its first 3 chapters deal with King' David's life. This is not a direct translation of biblical stories, and it borrows from Arabic versions, but parts of David's story are not known from arabic sources. GH Le 19 mars 09 ? 22:25, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE a ?crit : > There is Sanskrit translation of the Bible, printed in the grantha > script, from 1863. Perhaps there are earlier ones. > If I remember correctly, Sylvain Levi discusses some evidence for > the translation of the Alexander Legend into Sanskrit in the early > centuries CE. > Best wishes, > EF > > > Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : > >> >> Samr?? Jagann?tha translated Euclid into Sanskrit at the court >> of Jayasi?ha (1688-1743). Ed by Kamal??a?kara >> Pr??a?a?kara Trived?, Bombay: Nir?asas?gara Press, 1901. >> It was the Nasir ad-Din al-Tusi's Arabic tr. of Euclid that was >> translated, not the original Greek. >> >> Michael Dodson has written a good article on Ballantyne's 19th >> century efforts in Benares to present European science of the time >> in Sanskrit treatises. He and his pandits produced treatises for >> example on chemistry, the moon, and other topics. See >> http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=100309 >> >> Lancelot Wilkinson and his pandit Bapu Deva Sastri too worked on >> translating Arabic and European astronomical treatises into >> Sanskrit. See Minikowski's paper in Michaels' book The Pandit (http://books.google.com/books?id=0TtuAAAAMAAJ&pgis=1 >> ) and other papers. >> >> Best, >> -- >> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and >>> noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little >>> about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In >>> particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest >>> translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in >>> languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I >>> would consider translations in the full sense). >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Sven Sellmer >>> >>> ************************************ >>> Dr. Sven Sellmer >>> Adam Mickiewicz University >>> Institute of Oriental Studies >>> South Asia Unit >>> ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 >>> 61-485 Pozna? >>> POLAND >>> sven at amu.edu.pl > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > From vbd203 at GOOGLEMAIL.COM Fri Mar 20 03:17:38 2009 From: vbd203 at GOOGLEMAIL.COM (victor davella) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 09 23:17:38 -0400 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <9A3C5127-BD69-41EA-B0F8-64E9D54D5BDB@inria.fr> Message-ID: <161227085489.23782.4765826282690776485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3137 Lines: 99 Prof. Minkowski's inaugural address can be found on his website here: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ball2185/ It's quite a good read. Best, Victor PhD Candidate MEALAC Columbia University On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:02 PM, G?rard Huet wrote: > Pr Minkowski, in his Inaugural Lecture for the Boden Professorship at > Oxford, > tells about the Sulaimaccaitra, the Life of Sulaymaan (King Solomon). > This Sanskrit text was commissioned by prince Laa.dkaan of the > Lodi ruling family in Oudh around 1500. Its first 3 chapters deal with > King' David's life. > This is not a direct translation of biblical stories, > and it borrows from Arabic versions, but parts of David's story are not > known from arabic sources. > GH > > > Le 19 mars 09 ? 22:25, franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE a ?crit : > > > There is Sanskrit translation of the Bible, printed in the grantha script, >> from 1863. Perhaps there are earlier ones. >> If I remember correctly, Sylvain Levi discusses some evidence for the >> translation of the Alexander Legend into Sanskrit in the early centuries CE. >> Best wishes, >> EF >> >> >> Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : >> >> >>> Samr?? Jagann?tha translated Euclid into Sanskrit at the court of >>> Jayasi?ha (1688-1743). Ed by Kamal??a?kara Pr??a?a?kara Trived?, Bombay: >>> Nir?asas?gara Press, 1901. It was the Nasir ad-Din al-Tusi's Arabic tr. of >>> Euclid that was translated, not the original Greek. >>> >>> Michael Dodson has written a good article on Ballantyne's 19th century >>> efforts in Benares to present European science of the time in Sanskrit >>> treatises. He and his pandits produced treatises for example on chemistry, >>> the moon, and other topics. See >>> >>> http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=100309 >>> >>> Lancelot Wilkinson and his pandit Bapu Deva Sastri too worked on >>> translating Arabic and European astronomical treatises into Sanskrit. See >>> Minikowski's paper in Michaels' book The Pandit ( >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=0TtuAAAAMAAJ&pgis=1) and other papers. >>> >>> Best, >>> -- >>> Dr Dominik Wujastyk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed >>>> that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody >>>> aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious >>>> to learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally >>>> composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I >>>> would consider translations in the full sense). >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Sven Sellmer >>>> >>>> ************************************ >>>> Dr. Sven Sellmer >>>> Adam Mickiewicz University >>>> Institute of Oriental Studies >>>> South Asia Unit >>>> ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 >>>> 61-485 Pozna? >>>> POLAND >>>> sven at amu.edu.pl >>>> >>> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. >> >> >> From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 20 11:12:04 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 07:12:04 -0400 Subject: Legal constraints (la Message-ID: <161227085501.23782.5600109656865508274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 6899 Lines: 153 Dear all, Red: What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a Ph.D. thesis in Sanskrit? >?From my experience with Sanskrit universities in India, principally the Sampuur.naananda Sa.msk.rta Vi'svavidyaalaya.h in Varanasi, Sanskrit is regularly used as the medium for doctoral dissertations. Cordially, George -----Original Message----- >From: Jean-Luc Chevillard >Sent: Mar 19, 2009 8:25 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Legal constraints (la "Loi Toubon") [Re: Language barriers --- financial barriers > >As a contribution to the debate, I would like to mention another >parameter, namely the legal constraints that vary from country to country. > >It is (in normal conditions) against the law to write a Ph.D. thesis in >English if you study at a French university. > >See the following link: > > > >where you will find the "Article 11", of the "LOI n? 94-665 du 4 ao?t >1994 relative ? l'emploi de la langue fran?aise" (known as "Loi Toubon") >which says: > >"La langue de l'enseignement, des examens et concours, ainsi que des >th?ses et m?moires dans les ?tablissements publics et priv?s >d'enseignement est le fran?ais, sauf exceptions justifi?es par les >n?cessit?s de l'enseignement des langues et cultures r?gionales ou >?trang?res ou lorsque les enseignants sont des professeurs associ?s ou >invit?s ?trangers." > >I have heard that in Germany a Ph.D. thesis can be written in English, >but I would like to have confirmation of that fact. > >I am under the impression that in Italy, a Ph.D. thesis must be in italian. > >What is the situation in India? Is it possible to write a Ph.D. thesis >in Sanskrit? > >The consequence of the French legal constraints is that a French Ph.D. >thesis in the field of Indology has to be translated into English before >it can hope to reach an international audience >(and translation into Sanskrit, or Tamil, can probably only be viewed as >a third step). > >Of course, there are people in France who realize that this situation is >problematic, but there are other people who fight strongly against any >change. > > >-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris-Diderot Paris 7) > > >veeranarayana Pandurangi a ?crit : >> Certainly, I welcome prof. Kiparsky's suggestion. >> >> It is what suggested by me there in hyderabad seminar. What I pointed is >> that Prof. Kiparsky, prof. Houben, prof. Stall and very few others have >> contributed very much grammatical tradition of panini, on the subject that >> prof. Houben spoke there. But most of these researches are in english, which >> is mostly onknown to most of the very good traditional Samskrita scholars >> who fortunatley still are keeping alive the panini's tradition. simlar is >> the case of other shastras still rigorously studied in India, Nyaya, >> Vyakarana, Mimamsa, Vedanta, Sahitya. [...] >> >> >> Hence those writing in socalled international language i.e. English should >> also publish in samskrita (not sanskrit) and technical language that >> includes and that is original to paninian tradition, then the intended >> result can be acheived. people should be made aware of these things. Many of >> you may know oldtimer pandita manners very well while visiting india. >> >> [....] >> >> Similarly people should practice writing in sanskrit. Sure I know that will >> have their no impact on their career in US universities and elsewhere, but >> then english writing will have no result though writer may become profesor. >> >> I dont say it is solely the fault of people writing in english or language >> itself, the sin is shared by Pandits also by not responding to these >> writngs. but then there come all the barriers. we have a strike a balance to >> overcome it. By writing in Samskrita one will only contribute more to >> language he studies, and nothing udesired thing will happen. >> >> This is what I spoke in Hyderabad. >> >> It is upto the scholars to workout. >> veeranarayana >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Paul Kiparsky >> wrote: >> >> >>> If you want your work to be accessible to linguistically disjoint >>> audiences, why write it up in just one language? In smaller European >>> countries it is, or at any rate used to be, usual to publish one's work both >>> in English (or German) in an international journal, and locally in the >>> national language. For English-speaking Indologists, the comparable >>> practice would be to publish both an English version in an international >>> journal or book, and a Hindi, Tamil, or Sanskrit version in India. As Jan >>> Houben reported here on March 3, summaries of the talks at the recent Third >>> International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium were made >>> available both in English and in Sanskrit. The traditional philologists and >>> pandits who attended the conference welcomed the Sanskrit version as a step >>> to overcoming the language barrier and establishing mutual understanding >>> with English-speaking Indologists and computational linguists. >>> >>> Paul Kiparsky >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Simon Brodbeck wrote: >>> >>> On Friday 6 March 2009, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: "The more languages one >>> >>>> knows, the better." >>>> >>>> Few would disagree. But that is from the perspective of the consumer or >>>> recipient of texts. Active researchers are also producers of texts, and must >>>> produce them in one language or another. From this perspective, one's work >>>> will be inaccessible to those who lack facility with the language in which >>>> it is presented; and the choice of language is therefore a choice of >>>> audience. >>>> >>>> On the issue of financial barriers, it is an ongoing source of >>>> embarrassment and bemusement to myself and many of my contemporaries that >>>> the journals and publishers we have been led to believe are most highly >>>> esteemed by our institutional elders (in whose hands our careers lie) tend >>>> to be those which most of our desired audience cannot access. One cannot but >>>> suppose that, as a result, most of the discourse that there is on >>>> indological subjects occurs in contexts systematically ignorant of certain >>>> recent discoveries in indology. >>>> >>>> The UK Arts and Humanities Research Council has been funding a higher and >>>> higher fraction of British indological research in recent years. My >>>> perception is that the AHRC are increasingly concerned to ensure that the >>>> projects they fund have outputs accessible beyond the university sector. >>>> Perhaps, then, pretty soon, projects whose principal written outputs are not >>>> to be made freely available online will simply not be publicly funded. >>>> >>>> Simon Brodbeck >>>> Cardiff University >>>> >>>> >> >> >> From cbpicron at GMX.DE Fri Mar 20 07:45:00 2009 From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Bautze-Picron) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 08:45:00 +0100 Subject: Bangles In-Reply-To: <6D4A4C70-6C88-4D01-AE7D-E8B1B04E4556@mac.com> Message-ID: <161227085497.23782.5061124804517519344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1076 Lines: 44 Your student might have a look at : S.P. Tewari, Nuupura, the anklet in Indian literature and art, with a foreword by C. Sivaramamurti, Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan, 1982. CBP. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mary Storm Sent: Donnerstag, 19. M?rz 2009 06:03 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Bangles Dear Indologists, I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research project on the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer up some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by Sarojini Naidu. Any help would be most appreciated. Thank you so much for your thoughts! Mary Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India From brendan.gillon at MCGILL.CA Fri Mar 20 13:09:31 2009 From: brendan.gillon at MCGILL.CA (Brendan Gillon) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 09:09:31 -0400 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <161227085504.23782.10756956604231356674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 819 Lines: 26 Dear colleagues, Thanks to those of you who responded with information about the relative states of the cultural heritages of Europe and India. I shall be monitoring all other information which comes in with respect to this matter. It seems to me that, properly marshalled, this information can serve as a very powerful argument to increase funds to at least those parts of Indological studies which can help to mitigate the risk of loss. Best wishes, Brendan Gillon -- Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Department of Linguistics McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 H3A 1A7 CANADA webpage: http://www.mcgill.ca/linguistics/people/gillon/ From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 20 04:22:40 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 09:52:40 +0530 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085494.23782.1969086291573122931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1605 Lines: 44 On 19 Mar 2009, at 22:26, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > The National Mission for Manuscripts (http://www.namami.org/) > works with a figure of seven million, if I remember correctly. > NAMAMI has conducted surveys, the results of which are here: > > http://www.namami.org/nationalsurvey.htm > > I find the results raise questions for me: the numbers of MSS seem > rather low. Maybe they are only looking at non-library > repositories? There are other questions: In 2004-5, in Bihar, > Orissa and UP, 650,000 manuscripts were documented in about 35,000 > repositories. That means each repository had 18.6 MSS. Nobody has > that few MSS. The NMM database reveals that it has not been covering quite a number of larger MS collections so far. > > Is it more meritorious to throw MSS into a river (as documented by > Prof. KT Pandurangi in his 1978 booklet "The Wealth of Sanskrit > Manuscripts in India and Abroad" (http://books.google.nl/books?id=ahZ2AAAAIAAJ > ). Oblation into fire is also an option. The following is from Trilocana"siva's C12th Praaya"scittasamuccaya (currently being edited by Dr. R. Sathyanarayanan in Pondicherry): jiir.naa"nga.m yat svasiddhaanta.m pustaka.m tad gh.rtaaplutam| agniku.n.de tu hotavya.m hutvaaghora"sata.m japet|| 188|| `A manuscript of one's own tradition that is worn in parts should be suffused with ghee and oblated in the fire-pit. After oblating it, one should recite the aghora-mantra 100 times.' Dominic Goodall Pondicherry Centre, Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), Pondicherry From paolo.magnone at UNICATT.IT Fri Mar 20 18:22:52 2009 From: paolo.magnone at UNICATT.IT (Paolo Magnone) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 19:22:52 +0100 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <001901c9a826$fefff260$0301a8c0@Simonpoot> Message-ID: <161227085507.23782.8330706255696916648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 5297 Lines: 92 Dear friends, As this thread lingers on, I cannot help being baffled by the fact that the aspects of the problem that loomed large in my thoughts right from the first announce of it, to wit its broadly cultural, pedagogic, indeed even political implications, have not ever been so much as barely mentioned by anyone. I wonder whether this avoidance has been deliberate, as a potentially troublesome topic, or whether there is simply no widespread sensitivity to those aspects. But as more or less subtle insinuations that only English is worth being THE language of indological scholarship ? and indeed, why not, of any scholarship ? multiply, I thought I should ?give my two cents?, to use an expression that would never occur to me if I were writing in Italian (we do not use money metaphors ? or for that matter, we do not refer to money ? nearly as pervasively as they do in (American) English). This example helps to make my point: at the risk of stating the obvious, language is not a neutral instrument, but is integral with the world view it opens up. In Gadamer?s well-known words, ?erst mit der Sprache geht die Welt auf?. Or, to use another expression only roughly translatable into English, language is die ?Zusammengeh?rigkeit? (the interconnection or mutual pertinence) of the subject and the world. To some extent, the thinking and /ipso facto /speaking subject is ?spoken? by the language as much as he speaks it. He can never transcend the linguistic world, but through other languages he can gain access to the worlds of others. Now, like all other objects, India is different ? was opened up different ? in the different worlds. While I don?t want to belabour this point (who does not admire the pioneering work of the English fathers of indology?) I certainly would not like to give up ? just as an example ? a world envisioning India as a ?Land der Sehnsucht... [ein] Wunderreich... eine verzauberte Welt... [ein] gesuchtes Land, ein wesentliches Moment der ganzen Geschichte? (Hegel), in favour of another, where we are made to ask ourselves whether ?we shall countenance, at public expense?, preserving the culture of a land with an ?Astronomy, which would move laughter in girls at an English boarding school, History, abounding with kings thirty feet high, and reigns thirty thousand years long, and Geography, made up of seas of treacle and seas of butter? (English politician, historian and /poet/ Macaulay, only some fifteen-twenty years later). Of course, it would be unfair to the extreme to put a Macaulay up against Hegel (and a politician up against a philosopher); still, apart from the two personalities in themselves, I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay?s infamous ?Minute on Indian Education? as there is typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel?s winged eulogy of India. (By the way, Macaulay would have seconded the motion that indologists should give up writing in their respective mother tongues in favour of English, a language which in his opinion ?stands pre-eminent even among the languages of the west?, embodying a literature ?of far greater value than all the literature which three hundred years ago was extant in all the languages of the world together?). To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the ?Renaissance orientale?, contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism and bringing final fulfilment to that ideal of integral Humanism which was the promise of the first Rinascimento of Italian make) and to come to present day indology: all due allowance being made for the personalities and even idiosyncrasies of the individual scholars, there are unmistakably different flavours of indological scholarship that find expression in the different linguistic worlds. Whatever one may think of their respective worth, linguistic uniformity subtends cultural uniformity, which to me is an evil in itself, to be averted at all costs (and at that, I daresay the world is not faring particularly well with the globalized angloamerican monoculture :-). Let us preserve bio-diversity, let us preserve the rare indigenous varieties of cultural crops! -- Paolo Magnone Lingua e letteratura sanscrita Universit? Cattolica di Milano Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net) PS - As for the concern raised by the very title of this thread, that the babel of tongues might constitute a barrier to the propagation of indological knowledge I cannot do better than quote the well-known /subh??ita/: /anantap?ra? kila ?abda??stra? svalpa? tath?yur bahava? ca vighn?? s?ra? tato gr?hyam ap?sya phalgu ha?sair yath? k??ram iv?mbumadhy?t. /Someone else may fancy that he would positively peruse /all/ literature relevant to his field /if only/ it were written in English; as for me, I candidly admit to being unable to attain omniscience anyway; there are sure huge amounts of knowledge that escape my grasp in spite of being couched in English (or Italian, or...); on the other hand, I may go for something that I regard as really /s?ravat/ even if it is enshrined (I would say, rather than concealed) in some of the more out-of-the-way tongues. From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Mar 21 04:04:50 2009 From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 09 21:04:50 -0700 Subject: Bangles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085513.23782.8487255519162247995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2597 Lines: 91 Is your student's focus only on North-Indian/Hindi/Sanskritic material? If she would be interested in knowing about the "role" of bangles, armlets, and so on in the South, I can provide many references from Tamil (starting from old/classical literature to modern movies) and also discuss some religious/social significance of bangles. If you would like, I can send you a PDF document with the references in Tamil poetry (gathered through a computerized search program). But then your student may have to find someone locally to translate the material for her (or, I can help her electronically). Just let me know. Thanks. Regards, V.S. Rajam On Mar 20, 2009, at 7:53 PM, Mary Storm wrote: > Dear Indologists, > > Thank you so much for the bangle angle. Any new thoughts as they > jingle and clink into consciousness would be most gratefully received. > > I am trying to remember a poem in Hindi about a man thinking of > his lover as he finds a fragment of her bangle in his bed. . . > anyone know what I am talking about?? > > Thanks!! > Mary > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India > > On 20-Mar-09, at 1:15 PM, Claudine Bautze-Picron wrote: > >> Your student might have a look at : >> S.P. Tewari, Nuupura, the anklet in Indian literature and art, with a >> foreword by C. Sivaramamurti, Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan, 1982. >> >> CBP. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mary >> Storm >> Sent: Donnerstag, 19. M?rz 2009 06:03 >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Subject: Bangles >> >> Dear Indologists, >> >> I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research >> project on >> the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images >> (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic >> references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer up >> some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by >> Sarojini Naidu. >> >> Any help would be most appreciated. >> >> Thank you so much for your thoughts! >> >> Mary >> >> >> Mary Storm, Ph.D. >> Academic Director >> North India Arts and Culture >> and >> Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture >> SIT Study Abroad >> School for International Training >> www.sit.edu >> >> Mobile +91 98106 98003 >> F-301 Lado Sarai >> 2nd Fl >> New Delhi 110030 India From mnstorm at MAC.COM Sat Mar 21 02:53:13 2009 From: mnstorm at MAC.COM (Mary Storm) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 08:23:13 +0530 Subject: Bangles In-Reply-To: <002c01c9a92f$c6d143d0$5473cb70$@de> Message-ID: <161227085510.23782.1705228482052969341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1790 Lines: 74 Dear Indologists, Thank you so much for the bangle angle. Any new thoughts as they jingle and clink into consciousness would be most gratefully received. I am trying to remember a poem in Hindi about a man thinking of his lover as he finds a fragment of her bangle in his bed. . . anyone know what I am talking about?? Thanks!! Mary Mary Storm, Ph.D. Academic Director North India Arts and Culture and Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture SIT Study Abroad School for International Training www.sit.edu Mobile +91 98106 98003 F-301 Lado Sarai 2nd Fl New Delhi 110030 India On 20-Mar-09, at 1:15 PM, Claudine Bautze-Picron wrote: > Your student might have a look at : > S.P. Tewari, Nuupura, the anklet in Indian literature and art, with a > foreword by C. Sivaramamurti, Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan, 1982. > > CBP. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mary > Storm > Sent: Donnerstag, 19. M?rz 2009 06:03 > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Bangles > > Dear Indologists, > > I am writing on behalf of a student who is doing a research project on > the place of bangles in Indian society. She is looking at images > (plenty, not a problem!) and she is also searching for poetic > references (not so successful). I hope that one of you could offer up > some possible poetic references. I can only think of the poem by > Sarojini Naidu. > > Any help would be most appreciated. > > Thank you so much for your thoughts! > > Mary > > > Mary Storm, Ph.D. > Academic Director > North India Arts and Culture > and > Himalayan Buddhist Art and Architecture > SIT Study Abroad > School for International Training > www.sit.edu > > Mobile +91 98106 98003 > F-301 Lado Sarai > 2nd Fl > New Delhi 110030 India From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Sat Mar 21 04:57:35 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 10:27:35 +0530 Subject: Macaulay In-Reply-To: <49C3DEFC.5000600@unicatt.it> Message-ID: <161227085517.23782.10598134485802923650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3899 Lines: 74 A quibble: I think I can see what you mean about "Anglosaxon matter-of-factness", but I wonder whether it is really best illustrated by Macaulay's monstrous purple prose. Macaulay gets so carried away by the power of his own rhetoric, it seems to me, that he no longer knows himself when he is being entirely sincere. Here's another passage, tending in the opposite direction, which may be very seductive as a piece of magniloquent oratory, but which again seems to me (particularly when laid beside the infamous "Minute...") somewhat hollow. ``The people of India, when we subdued them, were ten times as numerous as the Americans whom the Spaniards vanquished, and were at the same time quite as highly civilised as the victorious Spaniards. They had reared cities larger and fairer than Saragossa or Toledo, and buildings more beautiful and costly than the cathedral of Seville. They could show bankers richer than the richest firms of Barcelona or Cadiz, viceroys whose splendour far surpassed that of Ferdinand the Catholic, myriads of cavalry and long trains of artillery which would have astonished the Great Captain. It might have been expected, that every Englishman who takes any interest in any part of history would be curious to know how a handful of his countrymen, separated from their home by an immense ocean, subjugated, in the course of a few years, one of the greatest empires in the world.'' [From Macaulay's review of : The Life of Robert Lord Clive; collected from the Family Papers, communicated by the Earl of Powis. By MAJOR- GENERAL SIR JOHN MALCOLM, K.C.B. 3 vols. 8vo. London: 1836.] What Macaulay rather illustrates, I think, is brilliant parliamentary bombast disguised as "matter-of-factness". Dominic Goodall Pondicherry Centre, Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), Pondicherry > > Now, like all other objects, India is different ? was opened up > different ? in the different worlds. While I don?t want to belabour > this point (who does not admire the pioneering work of the English > fathers of indology?) I certainly would not like to give up ? just > as an example ? a world envisioning India as a ?Land der > Sehnsucht... [ein] Wunderreich... eine verzauberte Welt... [ein] > gesuchtes Land, ein wesentliches Moment der ganzen > Geschichte? (Hegel), in favour of another, where we are made to ask > ourselves whether ?we shall countenance, at public expense?, > preserving the culture of a land with an ?Astronomy, which would > move laughter in girls at an English boarding school, History, > abounding with kings thirty feet high, and reigns thirty thousand > years long, and Geography, made up of seas of treacle and seas of > butter? (English politician, historian and /poet/ Macaulay, only > some fifteen-twenty years later). Of course, it would be unfair to > the extreme to put a Macaulay up against Hegel (and a politician up > against a philosopher); still, apart from the two personalities in > themselves, I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter- > of-factness speaking in Macaulay?s infamous ?Minute on Indian > Education? as there is typically German longing for the ineffable > transfactual in Hegel?s winged eulogy of India. (By the way, > Macaulay would have seconded the motion that indologists should give > up writing in their respective mother tongues in favour of English, > a language which in his opinion ?stands pre-eminent even among the > languages of the west?, embodying a literature ?of far greater value > than all the literature which three hundred years ago was extant in > all the languages of the world together?). > > -- > Paolo Magnone > Lingua e letteratura sanscrita > Universit? Cattolica di Milano > > Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net) From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Sat Mar 21 09:55:31 2009 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 10:55:31 +0100 Subject: Bible and New Testament: translations from hebrew and greek to sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20090319222534.32012y3uo5trir0u@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <161227085520.23782.12201449314932086377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 6454 Lines: 122 For a sanskrit tranlation of the Bible see: The Holy Bible in the sanskrit language... translated out of the original tongues [ibrIya-bhASAtaH : from the Hebrew language] by the Calcutta Baptist Missionaries, with native assistants; printed at the Baptist Mission Press (See http://www.wmcarey.edu/carey/baptmisspress/bmp.htm), circular road; Calcutta The copy I have in my hands was withdrawn from the Bowdoin College Library,to which it had been given by Rev. James L. Phillips, from Bapt. missn. India, acq. 1873. All volumes seem to be first (and only) editions... (about James L. Phillips, see http://abacus.bates.edu/Library/aboutladd/departments/special/SubjectGuides/FWB.shtml) 1848 (vol 1)Five books of Moses and the book of Joshua ibrIya-bhASAto vyAkRtaH / dharma-granthaH /tasya prathamaM khaNDaM / yad vA / mUsasA racitaM grantha-paJcakaM / yihozUya-pustakaJ ca [414 pp. written throughout in prosa] 1852 (vol 2)The historical books from judges to Esther ibrIya-bhASAto vyAkRtaH / dharma-granthaH / tasya dvitIyaM khaNDaM / yad vA / yihozUyasya maraNAt param isrAyelIya-lokAnAM purAvRtta-pustaka-saGgrahaH [493 pp. mainly prosa, with interspersed verses] 1858 (vol 3)The poetical and devotional books from Job to Canticles, ibrIya-bhASAto vyAkRtaH / dharma-granthaH / tasya tRtIyaM khaNDaM / yad vA / AyUvasya caritra-pustakaM / gIta-saMhitA / rAjJA sulemanA racitAni kavyAni ca [344 pp. written throughout in verses (epic zloka)] 1872 (vol 4)The prophetical books ibrIya-bhASAto vyAkRtaH / dharma-granthaH /tasya caturthaM khaNDaM / yad vA / yizAyiyAdInAM bhaviSyad-vAdinAM / grantha-saGgrahaH [538 pp. verses and prosa interspersed] Character is Nagari, saMdhi is often neglected for the sake of clarity, words being separated in a fashion reminding of DD Kosambi's edition(s) of Bhartrhari's. Translations are accurate and the sanskrit is correct. Luckily, in contradistinction with a lot of works printed in India during this period, the paper is still very good... For a translation of the New Testament [yUnAnIya-bhASAtaH 'from the greek language'], we have by the same publishers : 1851 The New Testament of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (second edition) prabhunA yIzukhrISTena nirUpitasya nUtana-dharmma-niyamasya grantha-saGgrahaH IMlaNDIya-vaGgadezIya-paNDitair yUnAnIya-bhASAto vyAkRtaH [700 pp. all prosa] Was this New Testament a library success ? On the reverse of the title page, we get the following figures : Testament Complete: 1st Edition Copies 1000 / 2nd Edition " 2500 Four Gospels and the Acts : 1st Edition 500 / 2nd Edition 1500 / 3rd Edition 2500 Four gospels and the Acts separately: 1st Edition 19500 / 2nd Edition 12500 / 3rd Edition 12500 Luke and Acts, together: one Edition 1500 Hoping it might help... J. Fezas, Professeur (Langue et litt?rature sanskrites,) Directeur UFR Orient et Monde Arabe, Universit? Paris-3 Sorbonne Nouvelle (Pr.Dr. J. Fezas, (Sanskrit Language and Literature), Dean of the Faculty 'Orient et Monde Arabe', Paris-3 Sorbonne Nouvelle) For those interested, here is a sample of the sanskrit text (Genesis 3, beginning) prabhUnA paramezvareNa sRSTANAM bhUcara-jantUNAM madhye sarpo'tIva khala AsIt| sa tAM nArIm avadat| aye asyodyAnasya kasya cid api pAdapasya phalani bhoktuM paramezvAro yuvAM nyasedhat, kim idaM satyam| tato nArI sarpaM provAca| AvAm etasyodyAnasya sarveSAM viTapinAM phalAni bhoktuM zaknuvaH kevalam udyAna-madhya-sthitasya pAdapasya phalaM pratIzvareNa kathitaM yuvAm etat phalaM mA bhuJjAthAM mA spRzataM ca tat kRtvA mariSyathaH| tadA bhujago nArIM babhASe| yuvAM nizcitaM na mariSyathAH kiM tu yadA tat khAdiSyataH tadA yuvayor locana-prakAzo bhaviSyati| tata Izvara iva bhadrAbhadra-jJAnaM lapsyethe| itIzvaro jAnAti| tadA nArI taM mahIruhaM sukhAdya-phalaM locano-raJjakaM jnAna-labhAya vAJcanIyaM ca vijJAya tasya phalAni zAtayitvA bubhuje| sva-svAmine ca dadau so'pi bhuktavAn| tena tayor ubhayor nayana-prakAzo babhUva| tatas tau svakIya-nagnatAM vijJAya vaTa-pattrANi syUtvA kaTau babandhatuH| -----Message d'origine----- De : Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] De la part de franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Envoy? : jeudi 19 mars 2009 22:26 ? : INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Objet : Re: Translations into Sanskrit There is Sanskrit translation of the Bible, printed in the grantha script, from 1863. Perhaps there are earlier ones. If I remember correctly, Sylvain Levi discusses some evidence for the translation of the Alexander Legend into Sanskrit in the early centuries CE. Best wishes, EF Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : > > Samra? Jagannatha translated Euclid into Sanskrit at the court of > Jayasi?ha (1688-1743). Ed by Kamalasa?kara Pra?asa?kara Trivedi, > Bombay: Nir?asasagara Press, 1901. It was the Nasir ad-Din al-Tusi's > Arabic tr. of Euclid that was translated, not the original Greek. > > Michael Dodson has written a good article on Ballantyne's 19th century > efforts in Benares to present European science of the time in Sanskrit > treatises. He and his pandits produced treatises for example on > chemistry, the moon, and other topics. See > > http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&a > id=100309 > > Lancelot Wilkinson and his pandit Bapu Deva Sastri too worked on > translating Arabic and European astronomical treatises into Sanskrit. > See Minikowski's paper in Michaels' book The Pandit > (http://books.google.com/books?id=0TtuAAAAMAAJ&pgis=1) and other > papers. > > Best, > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > > > > > On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Sven Sellmer wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed >> that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is >> anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I >> would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into >> Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle >> Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the >> full sense). >> >> Best wishes, >> Sven Sellmer >> >> ************************************ >> Dr. Sven Sellmer >> Adam Mickiewicz University >> Institute of Oriental Studies >> South Asia Unit >> ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 >> 61-485 Poznan >> POLAND >> sven at amu.edu.pl ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Mar 21 12:14:20 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 13:14:20 +0100 Subject: Classical heritages In-Reply-To: <62949.61.19.65.212.1237516939.squirrel@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227085527.23782.1193138816395641654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1856 Lines: 42 On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, FRITS STAAL wrote: > The statement "If you walk into almost any brahman home, there's an almira > somewhere that's packed with MSS." is grossly exaggerated. It applies to a > few homes of brahman families in traditional areas. Well, yes, I did exaggerate a bit, perhaps, but I would still maintain that largish collections of MSS are very, very widespread in private homes. And they are often ignored by the families themselves. I have sat with brahman friends in their sitting rooms, and asked about MSS, and been told absolutely that they have none. Meanwhile, over their shoulders, in the next room I could actually see a cupboard with palm-leaf MSS visible through the glass. When I politely pointed this out, my hosts were surprised in my interest, and seemed not to count these objects as MSS. They were "old stuff" of indeterminate identity. There was no disingenuousness here, or reluctance to display "family treasures". The cupboard full of MSS really didn't "count" in some sense. It was stuff from their grandparents that hadn't been thought about for years and years. More or less junk. I've even had this "manuscript denial" experience in a major library. The Roja Muthia library in Chennai, where I have participated in a major reconstruction project, and where the staff are my personal friends and colleagues, is mainly a book library. In its early days, I asked about MSS. - "There are none." - "What about those bundles of inscribed palm leaves over there?" - "Oh, what, those?" - "Yes." - "Oh, those are just family records of gifts given and recieved at family functions such as weddings, over many past generations." !!! This "MS denial" happens rather often, and needs to be taken into account when assessing whether or not there are MSS in a particular place. Best, Dominik From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Mar 21 12:38:52 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 13:38:52 +0100 Subject: Macaulay In-Reply-To: <8994766F-EC6C-4CF1-BBEE-B0E33AF38CCF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227085531.23782.17366883410159545747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4602 Lines: 95 I am glad Dominic has presented this alternative bit of Macaulayian bombast. Macaulay himself is more complicated than his repellent and much-cited Minute would suggest. But it is in any case so reductionist and essentializing to present Macaulay as the representative voice of Anglophone attitudes to India (or Hegel for the German case) that I think the general point is not well supported by this argument. However, of course I'm all with Magnone for cultural diversity and the rich perspectivism inherent in different languages communities. Best Dominik (with a -k :-) -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Dominic Goodall wrote: > A quibble: > > I think I can see what you mean about "Anglosaxon matter-of-factness", but I > wonder whether it is really best illustrated by Macaulay's monstrous purple > prose. Macaulay gets so carried away by the power of his own rhetoric, it > seems to me, that he no longer knows himself when he is being entirely > sincere. Here's another passage, tending in the opposite direction, which > may be very seductive as a piece of magniloquent oratory, but which again > seems to me (particularly when laid beside the infamous "Minute...") somewhat > hollow. > > ``The people of India, when we subdued them, were ten times as numerous as > the Americans whom the Spaniards vanquished, and were at the same time quite > as highly civilised as the victorious Spaniards. They had reared cities > larger and fairer than Saragossa or Toledo, and buildings more beautiful and > costly than the cathedral of Seville. They could show bankers richer than the > richest firms of Barcelona or Cadiz, viceroys whose splendour far surpassed > that of Ferdinand the Catholic, myriads of cavalry and long trains of > artillery which would have astonished the Great Captain. It might have been > expected, that every Englishman who takes any interest in any part of history > would be curious to know how a handful of his countrymen, separated from > their home by an immense ocean, subjugated, in the course of a few years, one > of the greatest empires in the world.'' > > [From Macaulay's review of : The Life of Robert Lord Clive; collected from > the Family Papers, communicated by the Earl of Powis. By MAJOR-GENERAL SIR > JOHN MALCOLM, K.C.B. 3 vols. 8vo. London: 1836.] > > What Macaulay rather illustrates, I think, is brilliant parliamentary bombast > disguised as "matter-of-factness". > > Dominic Goodall > Pondicherry Centre, > Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ("French School of Asian Studies"), > Pondicherry >> >> Now, like all other objects, India is different ? was opened up different ? >> in the different worlds. While I don?t want to belabour this point (who >> does not admire the pioneering work of the English fathers of indology?) I >> certainly would not like to give up ? just as an example ? a world >> envisioning India as a ?Land der Sehnsucht... [ein] Wunderreich... eine >> verzauberte Welt... [ein] gesuchtes Land, ein wesentliches Moment der >> ganzen Geschichte? (Hegel), in favour of another, where we are made to ask >> ourselves whether ?we shall countenance, at public expense?, preserving the >> culture of a land with an ?Astronomy, which would move laughter in girls at >> an English boarding school, History, abounding with kings thirty feet high, >> and reigns thirty thousand years long, and Geography, made up of seas of >> treacle and seas of butter? (English politician, historian and /poet/ >> Macaulay, only some fifteen-twenty years later). Of course, it would be >> unfair to the extreme to put a Macaulay up against Hegel (and a politician >> up against a philosopher); still, apart from the two personalities in >> themselves, I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon >> matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay?s infamous ?Minute on Indian >> Education? as there is typically German longing for the ineffable >> transfactual in Hegel?s winged eulogy of India. (By the way, Macaulay would >> have seconded the motion that indologists should give up writing in their >> respective mother tongues in favour of English, a language which in his >> opinion ?stands pre-eminent even among the languages of the west?, >> embodying a literature ?of far greater value than all the literature which >> three hundred years ago was extant in all the languages of the world >> together?). >> >> -- >> Paolo Magnone >> Lingua e letteratura sanscrita >> Universit? Cattolica di Milano >> >> Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net) From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Mar 21 21:27:16 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 14:27:16 -0700 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <49C3DEFC.5000600@unicatt.it> Message-ID: <161227085534.23782.14085265580880604895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1851 Lines: 40 on 3/20/2009 11:22 AM Paolo Magnone wrote: > ... (By the way, Macaulay would have seconded the motion that > indologists should give up writing in their respective mother tongues > in favour of English, a language which in his opinion ?stands > pre-eminent even among the languages of the west?, Dear Paolo, Regardless of Macaulay fanciful opinion about the 'pre-eminence' of English, the fact is that, today, English is the most practical language for international communication, scholarly or otherwise. This is not an ideological, political or imperial matter, but simply a pragmatic one. The current international importance of English is a fact, regardless of where that importance comes from. In that sense, India, with its familiarity with English, has a distinctive advantage over Latin America (and other regions) because, despite Macaulay's fantasies about pre-Columbian America and Spain, publishing in Spanish does prevent you from reaching a wider audience. I say this as someone who has published two Indological books in Spanish. Regarding your words: " Let us preserve bio-diversity, let us preserve the rare indigenous varieties of cultural crops! ," I agree completely of course, but there is a difference between publishing scholarly work in English instead of in one's native language in order to reach an international audience, and publishing in one's native language as a statement in support of that language (or to promote knowledge among the speakers of that language). In any case, they are not mutually exclusive. I concur with 'K' Dominik that it is "reductionist and essentializing to present Macaulay as the representative voice of Anglophone attitudes to India ..." And let us not forget how the expression "Macaulay's Children" is used in a derogatory way. Best, Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat Mar 21 12:05:32 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 09 17:35:32 +0530 Subject: time to change the tune Message-ID: <161227085523.23782.5803729464481415160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1610 Lines: 55 Dear Dr. Bijlert I regret that I was in a way responsible for the event since I had expressed my own disapproval of the debate in the forum in a personal mail to you. It is good that?sense has prevailed DB --- On Tue, 17/3/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: time to change the tune To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 17 March, 2009, 12:23 AM Some days ago I cautiously attempted the same warning. But instead of understanding I was met with barking from various sides at my temerity. This is precisely why a forum or discussionlist needs moderators. Greetings Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Verzonden: maandag 16 maart 2009 9:12 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: time to change the tune I find the use of the Indology list by our colleagues in Germany to be tiresome in the extreme and not to accord very well with the purposes for which Indology was established. If this continues much longer, I, for one, will withdraw my name from the subscription list. Perhaps a separate listserve dedicated to settling scores in Germany should be contemplated, so that those interested in this will have their own playpen. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/ From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Sun Mar 22 17:15:42 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 09 18:15:42 +0100 Subject: AW: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) Message-ID: <161227085537.23782.6937441497211392171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2869 Lines: 73 I have great sympathy for Paolo Magnone's point. However, there is one aspect that I see differently. Paolo Magnone wrote: ... I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay's infamous "Minute on Indian Education" as there is typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel's winged eulogy of India. ... To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the "Renaissance orientale", contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism ... _______________________ With regard to Hegel, "German longing", Romanticism etc. it may be helpful to take a look at the chapter on Hegel in Wilhelm Halbfa?'s "Indien und Europa". Here are a few quotes from the English translation (1988): p. 86: [Hegel] sought advice and information from his colleague at the University of Berlin, the pioneer Sanskritist and linguist F. Bopp [and read H. T. Colebrooke's first essay "On the Philosophy of the Hindus"], .... [...but, it bears reminding:] p. 85: (...) Hegel was not an indologist. [Paolo Magnone correctly addresses Hegel as a philospher.] p. 95: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from his anti-Romantic attitude and his criticism of the Romantic glorification of India. However, F. Schlegel himself subsequently revised and modified his evaluation of the Indian tradition, and he distanced himself from the unqualified enthusiasm of his earlier statements. p. 85: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from that of the Romantics: He was one of the heirs, but also the most rigorous critic of the Romantic conception of India. What distinguishes his approach above all from that of the Romantics is his commitment to the present, and his sense of an irreversible direction of history. He does not glorify origins and early stages. The spirit of world history progresses to greater richness and complexity. What has been in the beginning cannot be richer and more perfect. It may be true that India, as part of the Orient, is a land of "sunrise," of early origins and "childhood." But this does not justify nostalgia and contempt of the European present. We cannot and need not return to the Orient: It is a matter of the past. ______ I may add that, so far, I have not come across a "German indologist" of any description who had a "typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual", or who wanted to reverse the course of history according to a presumed "Oriental" model. This is but a small illustration of the fundamental flaw of Raymond Schwab "Oriental Renaissance". As I have pointed out elsewhere: When Edward Said stumbled across Schwab's book, roughly two decades after its publication (1950), he decided that it had been "unreasonably ignored". This is one point on which I take the liberty to disagree with Said. Reinhold Gr?nendahl From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Sun Mar 22 17:35:42 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 09 18:35:42 +0100 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085541.23782.17966096233583965184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4006 Lines: 101 I do not wish to defend British policies from the days of the Company Raj, but I am only pointing to the fact that Macaulay edited the Indian Penal Code which is still in use in South Asia (with the necessary amendments). Moreover, Bengali Renaissance reformers like Raja Rammohun Roy, prince Dwarkanath Tagore and Vidyasagar were far more incisevely critical of the Brahmanical culture of their day than Macaulay ever could be. The fiercest critics of Indian culture were not the British but the Indian reformers themselves. Macaulay's Minute on education was fully endorsed by the then Hindu reformers. The Indian reformers themselves were clamoring for English education. I think we should not forget this fact. Presentday criticism of Macaulay may ultimately be used to tacitly endorse upper-caste Hindu reactionary world-views. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Gruenendahl, Reinhold Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 18:16 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: AW: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) I have great sympathy for Paolo Magnone's point. However, there is one aspect that I see differently. Paolo Magnone wrote: ... I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay's infamous "Minute on Indian Education" as there is typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel's winged eulogy of India. ... To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the "Renaissance orientale", contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism ... _______________________ With regard to Hegel, "German longing", Romanticism etc. it may be helpful to take a look at the chapter on Hegel in Wilhelm Halbfa?'s "Indien und Europa". Here are a few quotes from the English translation (1988): p. 86: [Hegel] sought advice and information from his colleague at the University of Berlin, the pioneer Sanskritist and linguist F. Bopp [and read H. T. Colebrooke's first essay "On the Philosophy of the Hindus"], .... [...but, it bears reminding:] p. 85: (...) Hegel was not an indologist. [Paolo Magnone correctly addresses Hegel as a philospher.] p. 95: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from his anti-Romantic attitude and his criticism of the Romantic glorification of India. However, F. Schlegel himself subsequently revised and modified his evaluation of the Indian tradition, and he distanced himself from the unqualified enthusiasm of his earlier statements. p. 85: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from that of the Romantics: He was one of the heirs, but also the most rigorous critic of the Romantic conception of India. What distinguishes his approach above all from that of the Romantics is his commitment to the present, and his sense of an irreversible direction of history. He does not glorify origins and early stages. The spirit of world history progresses to greater richness and complexity. What has been in the beginning cannot be richer and more perfect. It may be true that India, as part of the Orient, is a land of "sunrise," of early origins and "childhood." But this does not justify nostalgia and contempt of the European present. We cannot and need not return to the Orient: It is a matter of the past. ______ I may add that, so far, I have not come across a "German indologist" of any description who had a "typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual", or who wanted to reverse the course of history according to a presumed "Oriental" model. This is but a small illustration of the fundamental flaw of Raymond Schwab "Oriental Renaissance". As I have pointed out elsewhere: When Edward Said stumbled across Schwab's book, roughly two decades after its publication (1950), he decided that it had been "unreasonably ignored". This is one point on which I take the liberty to disagree with Said. Reinhold Gr?nendahl From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun Mar 22 18:53:30 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 00:23:30 +0530 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) Message-ID: <161227085544.23782.6886691967647658825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 6854 Lines: 123 The thread may have been lost but perhaps the?question that brought in the topic of culture preservation was the inability of a large number of Indian Sanskritists to understand English. In fact this state of affairs is a creation of current politics. A language of international standing apart from one's mother tongue, must be a part of the curriculum in the University stage. This principle is followed in every civilized society where modern education has made a place for itself.[[Perhaps many in India might experience that?this is not true of Americans ie U.S. citizens. But perhaps, it is really not so. It seems untrue of Americans perhaps because poorly educated Americans too can afford to tour India. They too enter into Institutes of higher study. It is they who leave the poor impression. But the above principle seems to have been followed when one talks with a highly educated American.]] In India misplaced patriotism has been the reason for?banishing English as a compulsory subject?from the University curricula in some states.?Such steps might not greatly harm education?in countries where elaborate arrangement for translation and of quickly getting informed of the latest developments in research exists. This is not possible in India for many reasons -- copyright, prohibitive cost of getting permission, unwillingness of publishers to explore such possibilities. For example, R.H.Robins' General Linguistics has been translated into French. No Indian publisher ever thought of that.? As a result the abolition of English has increased the number of graduates but has?also?caused a severe lowering of the standard of education. Even most of the PhD theses produced in these states cannot be sent to states where a different language is spoken. It is forgotten that?one need not lose one's culture by preparing oneself to get acquainted with researches?being carried?on in the world outside India. On the contrary one enriches oneself and one's culture thereby.That was the reason, explicitly stated by the?reformers of Bengal?in the nineteenth century, for the then?emphasis on English education. Unfortunately,?the?condition is still valid and will remain so till India is industrially an advanced country.? DB ? --- On Sun, 22/3/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 22 March, 2009, 11:05 PM I do not wish to defend British policies from the days of the Company Raj, but I am only pointing to the fact that Macaulay edited the Indian Penal Code which is still in use in South Asia (with the necessary amendments). Moreover, Bengali Renaissance reformers like Raja Rammohun Roy, prince Dwarkanath Tagore and Vidyasagar were far more incisevely critical of the Brahmanical culture of their day than Macaulay ever could be. The fiercest critics of Indian culture were not the British but the Indian reformers themselves. Macaulay's Minute on education was fully endorsed by the then Hindu reformers. The Indian reformers themselves were clamoring for English education. I think we should not forget this fact. Presentday criticism of Macaulay may ultimately be used to tacitly endorse upper-caste Hindu reactionary world-views. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Gruenendahl, Reinhold Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 18:16 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: AW: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) I have great sympathy for Paolo Magnone's point. However, there is one aspect that I see differently. Paolo Magnone wrote: ... I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay's infamous "Minute on Indian Education" as there is? typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel's winged eulogy of India. ... To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the "Renaissance orientale", contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism ... _______________________ With regard to Hegel, "German longing", Romanticism etc. it may be helpful to take a look at the chapter on Hegel in Wilhelm Halbfa?'s "Indien und Europa". Here are a few quotes from the English translation (1988): p. 86: [Hegel] sought advice and information from his colleague at the University of Berlin, the pioneer Sanskritist and linguist F. Bopp [and read H. T. Colebrooke's first essay "On the Philosophy of the Hindus"], .... [...but, it bears reminding:] p. 85: (...) Hegel was not an indologist. [Paolo Magnone correctly addresses Hegel as a philospher.] p. 95: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from his anti-Romantic attitude and his criticism of the Romantic glorification of India. However, F. Schlegel himself subsequently revised and modified his evaluation of the Indian tradition, and he distanced himself from the unqualified enthusiasm of his earlier statements. p. 85: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from that of the Romantics: He was one of the heirs, but also the most rigorous critic of the Romantic conception of India. What distinguishes his approach above all from that of the Romantics is his commitment to the present, and his sense of an irreversible direction of history. He does not glorify origins and early stages. The spirit of world history progresses to greater richness and complexity. What has been in the beginning cannot be richer and more perfect. It may be true that India, as part of the Orient, is a land of "sunrise," of early origins and "childhood." But this does not justify nostalgia and contempt of the European present. We cannot and need not return to the Orient: It is a matter of the past. ______ I may add that, so far, I have not come across a "German indologist" of any description who had a "typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual", or who wanted to reverse the course of history according to a presumed "Oriental" model. This is but a small illustration of the fundamental flaw of Raymond Schwab "Oriental Renaissance". As I have pointed out elsewhere: When Edward Said stumbled across Schwab's book, roughly two decades after its publication (1950), he decided that it had been "unreasonably ignored". This is one point on which I take the liberty to disagree with Said. Reinhold Gr?nendahl Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Mon Mar 23 14:34:04 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 07:34:04 -0700 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <25616_1237814166_1237814166_9C583450-2E75-4DFB-9C75-B51C0215984E@helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227085569.23782.3702542427596066480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 759 Lines: 16 Many translations from Indian and non-Indian languages into Sanskrit have been published in Sanskrit periodicals right from the time of what is considered to be the first periodical in Sanskrit, namely The Pandit or Kaa;sii-vidyaa-sudhaa-nidhi. It has become very difficult to get the issues of several of these periodicals. Some library specializing in their acquisition as well as in the acquisition of the notebooks of highly regarded ;saastrins and pa.n.ditas (in original form or in copies) needs to be created. My efforts in this regard with the Ramkrishna Dalmia Shrivani Alankaran Nyaas Endowment (supporter of the most generous award for writing in modern Sanskrit of which am aware) in New Delhi have so far not been successful. ashok aklujkar From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Mon Mar 23 07:58:36 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 08:58:36 +0100 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <816938.95789.qm@web8604.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085553.23782.15275626289708028774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 7792 Lines: 175 Not only the gradual loss of English is to be deplored. Also Sanskrit had been thrown out of the educational system in some Indian states, with the result that the knowledge of the vernacular State language also suffers. Many words in e.g. Hindi or Bengali are tatsama's. Spelling-errors also increasingly occur as a result of lack of knowledge about the word-formation of tatsama's. Many users of Indian languages are probably not even aware anymore of the parent language from which many of their loanwords have issued. Of course the Bengali reformers like Rammohun and Vidyasagar pleaded for English education (in English) but still knew their Sanskrit. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 19:54 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) The thread may have been lost but perhaps the?question that brought in the topic of culture preservation was the inability of a large number of Indian Sanskritists to understand English. In fact this state of affairs is a creation of current politics. A language of international standing apart from one's mother tongue, must be a part of the curriculum in the University stage. This principle is followed in every civilized society where modern education has made a place for itself.[[Perhaps many in India might experience that?this is not true of Americans ie U.S. citizens. But perhaps, it is really not so. It seems untrue of Americans perhaps because poorly educated Americans too can afford to tour India. They too enter into Institutes of higher study. It is they who leave the poor impression. But the above principle seems to have been followed when one talks with a highly educated American.]] In India misplaced patriotism has been the reason for?banishing English as a compulsory subject?from the University curricula in some states.?Such steps might not greatly harm education?in countries where elaborate arrangement for translation and of quickly getting informed of the latest developments in research exists. This is not possible in India for many reasons -- copyright, prohibitive cost of getting permission, unwillingness of publishers to explore such possibilities. For example, R.H.Robins' General Linguistics has been translated into French. No Indian publisher ever thought of that.? As a result the abolition of English has increased the number of graduates but has?also?caused a severe lowering of the standard of education. Even most of the PhD theses produced in these states cannot be sent to states where a different language is spoken. It is forgotten that?one need not lose one's culture by preparing oneself to get acquainted with researches?being carried?on in the world outside India. On the contrary one enriches oneself and one's culture thereby.That was the reason, explicitly stated by the?reformers of Bengal?in the nineteenth century, for the then?emphasis on English education. Unfortunately,?the?condition is still valid and will remain so till India is industrially an advanced country.? DB ? --- On Sun, 22/3/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 22 March, 2009, 11:05 PM I do not wish to defend British policies from the days of the Company Raj, but I am only pointing to the fact that Macaulay edited the Indian Penal Code which is still in use in South Asia (with the necessary amendments). Moreover, Bengali Renaissance reformers like Raja Rammohun Roy, prince Dwarkanath Tagore and Vidyasagar were far more incisevely critical of the Brahmanical culture of their day than Macaulay ever could be. The fiercest critics of Indian culture were not the British but the Indian reformers themselves. Macaulay's Minute on education was fully endorsed by the then Hindu reformers. The Indian reformers themselves were clamoring for English education. I think we should not forget this fact. Presentday criticism of Macaulay may ultimately be used to tacitly endorse upper-caste Hindu reactionary world-views. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Gruenendahl, Reinhold Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 18:16 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: AW: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) I have great sympathy for Paolo Magnone's point. However, there is one aspect that I see differently. Paolo Magnone wrote: ... I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay's infamous "Minute on Indian Education" as there is? typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel's winged eulogy of India. ... To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the "Renaissance orientale", contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism ... _______________________ With regard to Hegel, "German longing", Romanticism etc. it may be helpful to take a look at the chapter on Hegel in Wilhelm Halbfa?'s "Indien und Europa". Here are a few quotes from the English translation (1988): p. 86: [Hegel] sought advice and information from his colleague at the University of Berlin, the pioneer Sanskritist and linguist F. Bopp [and read H. T. Colebrooke's first essay "On the Philosophy of the Hindus"], .... [...but, it bears reminding:] p. 85: (...) Hegel was not an indologist. [Paolo Magnone correctly addresses Hegel as a philospher.] p. 95: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from his anti-Romantic attitude and his criticism of the Romantic glorification of India. However, F. Schlegel himself subsequently revised and modified his evaluation of the Indian tradition, and he distanced himself from the unqualified enthusiasm of his earlier statements. p. 85: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from that of the Romantics: He was one of the heirs, but also the most rigorous critic of the Romantic conception of India. What distinguishes his approach above all from that of the Romantics is his commitment to the present, and his sense of an irreversible direction of history. He does not glorify origins and early stages. The spirit of world history progresses to greater richness and complexity. What has been in the beginning cannot be richer and more perfect. It may be true that India, as part of the Orient, is a land of "sunrise," of early origins and "childhood." But this does not justify nostalgia and contempt of the European present. We cannot and need not return to the Orient: It is a matter of the past. ______ I may add that, so far, I have not come across a "German indologist" of any description who had a "typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual", or who wanted to reverse the course of history according to a presumed "Oriental" model. This is but a small illustration of the fundamental flaw of Raymond Schwab "Oriental Renaissance". As I have pointed out elsewhere: When Edward Said stumbled across Schwab's book, roughly two decades after its publication (1950), he decided that it had been "unreasonably ignored". This is one point on which I take the liberty to disagree with Said. Reinhold Gr?nendahl Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From mkmfolk at GMAIL.COM Mon Mar 23 16:14:40 2009 From: mkmfolk at GMAIL.COM (Mahendra Kumar Mishra) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 09:14:40 -0700 Subject: Gaja Sastra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085577.23782.17690470819277915731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1169 Lines: 39 Gajasashtra and Aswa( horser ) sastra are two important palmleaf manuscripts in Indian which is ingored by the forest and Environment department . whata fun. if some westernscholar will recognise and recommend Indian academics and administration , then they will certainly work on it. It is nice that Indology is discussed by some scholars of India and abroad. I have collected a hatidhara geet ( howto capture the elephant ) froma folk singer whichis inOriya language. Itis all about the capturingof elehant . regards, Mahendra Mishra On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or translations of > Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder whether any of you, more > up to date on elephants than I am, can provide some guidance. Thanks. > > Patrick Olivelle > -- Dr Mahendra Kumar Mishra State Tribal Education Coordinator, Orissa Primary Education Programme Authority, Unit- V Bhubaneswar 751001,India Residential Address: D-9 Flat Kalpana Area Bhubaneswar 751014,India phone 91+674-2310167(r) 094376-36436(m) From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 23 14:28:11 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 09:28:11 -0500 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085567.23782.5418121336404729096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 417 Lines: 17 If I am not mistaken, Ballantyne also produced some textbooks of Western logic and other subjects in Sanskrit, though these may not be precisely translations. I am sorry that I do not have the full references at my disposal as I write just now. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Mar 23 14:30:31 2009 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 09:30:31 -0500 Subject: Gaja Sastra In-Reply-To: <20080122104709.22A77404@bonito.ulb.ac.be> Message-ID: <161227085574.23782.18074388010305083398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 244 Lines: 9 A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or translations of Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder whether any of you, more up to date on elephants than I am, can provide some guidance. Thanks. Patrick Olivelle From paolo.magnone at UNICATT.IT Mon Mar 23 09:22:04 2009 From: paolo.magnone at UNICATT.IT (Paolo Magnone) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 10:22:04 +0100 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085560.23782.16086535571818243207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4816 Lines: 87 Dear Friends, I bitterly repent having ever quoted Hegel, and especially Macaulay, as it seems to have done nothing but distract from the main argument. Of course, it *is* > reductionist and essentializing to present Macaulay as the > representative voice of Anglophone attitudes to India [:] when you make an example, you might as well pick an extreme one to make your point stand out the better. In other words, Macauley was certainly not meant to represent the average anglophone attitude to India, but only to typify that attitude *at its worse*: I thought I had added enough cautionary words to make that clear. (I take Dominic Goodall?s subtle point on the suitability or otherwise of Macaulay to demonstrate matter-of-factness; I still think his parliamentary bombast must be some sort of matter-of-factness raised to visionary heights :-). As for Hegel, thanks to Reinhold Gr?nendahl for his clarification; however, here again, I was aware of Halbfa??s assessment of Hegel?s many-faceted relationship to India, but the interest of choosing Hegel for me lies exactly in that, although in many ways he was, as Glasenapp (quoted by Halbfa?) styled him, ?the prototype of the Westerner, who saw Western thought as the measure of all things? (but on the other hand, in the frame of his system of the progressive unfolding of the Spirit, his appreciation of what he regarded as a civilization of the past could not have been unreserved: as Greece itself, India must have been /aufgehoben/); still, in his ?Vorlesungen ?ber die Philosophie der Weltgeschichte? he could pronounce those words, displaying a cultural sensitivity which is far removed from Macaulay?s. As for there not (any longer) being German indologists with a longing for the ineffable, I suppose I shall have to take Gr?nendahl?s word, albeit not without regret :-) For in my opinion this is one of the worst blights upon much of present-day indology: while, for instance, the overwhelming majority of biblists are motivated by the thought that they are dealing with something extremely precious, it seems more and more (Western) indologists could not care less about the actual content of the Indian scriptures they are studying, but just treat them as a playground to display their methodological acumen. On the other hand, the deep sympathy towards the Orient that was once characteristic of German Romanticism need not necessarily have something to do with > [wanting] to reverse the course of history according to a > presumed "Oriental" model and I am at a loss to see that there should be an intrinsic connection between the two. To finally come to what interests me more, when Luis Gonzalez-Reimann reminds me that > [r]egardless of Macaulay fanciful opinion about the 'pre-eminence' of > English, the fact is that, today, English is the most practical > language for international communication, scholarly or otherwise. This > is not an ideological, political or imperial matter, but simply a > pragmatic one. excuse me, Luis, but this is a truism. How should I ignore this simple, ?pragmatic? fact? (although it is ironical that I should be brought back to pragmatism, which is a close kin to ?matter-of-factness?, exactly while I am denouncing its one-sidedness). Of course, we all write and publish and internationally communicate in English, and this same forum bears testimony to it. This is a very welcome *choice* we all have. But some would have us cease altogether from writing in anything but English for scholarly purposes, which ? to add one more consideration, apart from the perspective of cultural diversity ? would amount to effectively demoting our mother tongues to the level of vernaculars unfit for scientific discourse. And some are even going to the length of advocating the adoption of English for dissertations in all countries. Now, speaking of pragmatism, let us be pragmatic: how should a young student, who (with the levels of student literacy falling everywhere) is hardly at ease with his own mother tongue, be expected to handle a foreign language with all the subtlety and stylistic accomplishment that I (at least) insist on requiring? All we shall get is haphazard jobs, and we shall have rendered a poor service to indology and to the students themselves, who will have missed an unrepeatable opportunity to learn to wield their language beyond the elementary requirements of everyday life. (On the priceless pedagogical value of writing a dissertation, here in Italy we have an all-time classic, much popular with generations of students: Umberto Eco?s /Come si fa una tesi di laurea/). -- Paolo Magnone Lingua e letteratura sanscrita Universit? Cattolica di Milano Jambudvipa - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net) From rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 23 14:40:18 2009 From: rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Rosane Rocher) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 10:40:18 -0400 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20090323092811.BUK53108@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227085572.23782.7455291852147577981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 771 Lines: 27 For the translation program conducted at Banaras Sanskrit College under Ballantyne, see Michael S. Dodson's 2007 book (originally Cambridge dissertation), the contents of which may be obscured by its title /Orientalism, Empire, and National Culture: India, 1770-1880. / Rosane Rocher mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > If I am not mistaken, Ballantyne also > produced some textbooks of Western logic > and other subjects in Sanskrit, though > these may not be precisely translations. > I am sorry that I do not have the full > references at my disposal as I write > just now. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Mar 23 17:45:28 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 10:45:28 -0700 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <49C754BC.2000904@unicatt.it> Message-ID: <161227085585.23782.3856650127951864805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2580 Lines: 53 Thanks, Paolo, > excuse me, Luis, but this is a truism. How should I ignore this > simple, ?pragmatic? fact? (although it is ironical that I should be > brought back to pragmatism, which is a close kin to > ?matter-of-factness?, exactly while I am denouncing its > one-sidedness). Of course, we all write and publish and > internationally communicate in English, and this same forum bears > testimony to it. This is a very welcome *choice* we all have. Alright. > But some would have us cease altogether from writing in anything but > English for scholarly purposes, Then maybe I misunderstood you, I didn't see this as the main point you were making. And this is a very specific point. This is not what I was addressing. As I said, I see no conflict with using both English and another language. English for international communication, and the mother tongue for "national" communication. > which ? to add one more consideration, apart from the perspective of > cultural diversity ? would amount to effectively demoting our mother > tongues to the level of vernaculars unfit for scientific discourse. > And some are even going to the length of advocating the adoption of > English for dissertations in all countries. Not in Latin America, I can assure you. Maybe in some European countries. Europe is very multilingual in a way that other areas of the world are not. This is (or at least was) especially true of countries such as Holland, Denmark and others, where students learn other European languages from an early age. Decisions about the language dissertations are written in is a very specific topic. We have already heard that in Germany different universities have different rules regarding this. I can tell you that here, at the University of California, Berkeley, dissertations in the Department of Spanish, for example, can be written in Spanish. > Now, speaking of pragmatism, let us be pragmatic: how should a young > student, who (with the levels of student literacy falling everywhere) > is hardly at ease with his own mother tongue, be expected to handle a > foreign language A student at the graduate level, I think, must be able to read (not to master subtle and stylistic points for writing) a couple of languages that are important in the field. In the US, they are usually French and German, with Japanese coming more and more into the picture, especially for Buddhist studies. Russian and Italian may be acceptable in some departments depending on the specific topic of the research. Regards, Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Mar 23 18:05:27 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 11:05:27 -0700 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <49C79F52.1010405@sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227085588.23782.8988282930650537957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 676 Lines: 17 A text that should probably be included as the earliest extant translation into Sanskrit (as far as I am aware). is the /YavanajAtaka/ of Sphujidhvaja. It was written in the third century CE. It is purportedly a versified version of a prose translation of a Greek text on astrology composed in Hellenistic Egypt. According to David Pingree, the prose translation was carried out by Yavanezvara in the second century CE during the reign of the Saka ruler Rudradaman I of Ujjain. See vol 1:3 of: Pingree, David, ed. and trans. 1978. /The YavanajAtaka of Sphujidhvaja/. 2 vols. Harvard Oriental Series, 48. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann From sellmers at GMX.DE Mon Mar 23 11:09:39 2009 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 12:09:39 +0100 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) In-Reply-To: <49C754BC.2000904@unicatt.it> Message-ID: <161227085562.23782.16432992171942698418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2398 Lines: 55 Looking back at the discussion so far, which has taken very interesting turns, it seems to me that there are two basic problems: P1: The problem, especially (but not only, it seems) for Indian colleagues, of reading indological works written in languages other than English. P2: The problem of cultural diversity that is endangered by a pervasive use of English in scholarly discourse. I take both problems to be genuine and serious ones. Unfortunately, the easiest way to solve P1, namely to switch to English altogether, would only worsen P2, so we seem to face a classical dilemma. But if we have a closer look at the situation, perhaps the dilemma is not so huge as it appears at first sight, and that is the point I would like to make: "Indology" is not a monolithic science, there are many different fields belonging to it. Now, in some of them, I would contend, switching to English would indeed greatly enhance scholarly exchange without doing much harm to cultural diversity. I have in mind topics like logic, grammar, textual history etc. But concerning other fields Paolo's remarks are highly valid. When one is dealing with poetry, certain philosophical or religious points and many other comparable, less "matter of fact" topics there can be hardly any doubt that the usage of just one language (be it English or any other) cannot but grossly reduce the quality of the discussion. Both reasons for that have already be mentioned: (1) the less-than-perfect command of English on part of the non-native speakers; (2) the loss of the specific hermeneutical perspectives that each language offers. The upshot is, in my mind, that someone planning to engage in international discussions of the second type should have at least a good passive command of a couple of modern and ancient Western and Indian languages. If a student does not want to spend that much time on learning non-Indian languages, he or she can still do a lot of important work in fields of the first type. (No degradation implied here, of course.) To be sure, in that way the dilemma is not solved, but at least somewhat mitigated. Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Mar 23 07:49:56 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 13:19:56 +0530 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085547.23782.14103497763428179930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2455 Lines: 55 Quite a few translations into Sanskrit??have been mentioned by members. The following may be added to the list if they have not already been mentioned by someone ? 1.Hayata: Sub.Arabic astronomy and geography; original version: Persian?Sanskrit translator: unknown; time: late medieval? ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.96, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1967 ? 2.Ukra Sub:mensuration,geometry; original: Greek? author: Saawajuusayuusa; translated by Nayanasukhopadhyaaya Jaipur, 1693 CE; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.104, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1978 ? 3.Yantraraajavicaaravi.m;saadhyaayii Sub:construction of instruments for astronomy; original: Arabic; author: ?; translated by Nayanasukhopadhyaaya mentioned above; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.108, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1979 ? The following Sanskrit work is not a translation but it was meant to help translators 4.Paarasiikaprakaa;sa Sub: bilingual grammar of Persian;author:Bihaari .K.r.s.nadaasa Mi;sra under Akbar's(1555-1604) patronage; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.95, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1965 First puiblished from Varanasi in 1865; then ed.Weber,Berlin,1985; If these have already been brought to notice in these columns I express regret. DB ? ? ? ? --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Sven Sellmer wrote: From: Sven Sellmer Subject: Translations into Sanskrit To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 19 March, 2009, 5:53 PM Dear Colleagues, lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the full sense). Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Mar 23 07:53:34 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 13:23:34 +0530 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085550.23782.5726394296799423234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2843 Lines: 70 Please read 'Weber,Berlin,1885'. --- On Mon, 23/3/09, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: Translations into Sanskrit To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 23 March, 2009, 1:19 PM Quite a few translations into Sanskrit??have been mentioned by members. The following may be added to the list if they have not already been mentioned by someone ? 1.Hayata: Sub.Arabic astronomy and geography; original version: Persian?Sanskrit translator: unknown; time: late medieval? ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.96, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1967 ? 2.Ukra Sub:mensuration,geometry; original: Greek? author: Saawajuusayuusa; translated by Nayanasukhopadhyaaya Jaipur, 1693 CE; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.104, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1978 ? 3.Yantraraajavicaaravi.m;saadhyaayii Sub:construction of instruments for astronomy; original: Arabic; author: ?; translated by Nayanasukhopadhyaaya mentioned above; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.108, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1979 ? The following Sanskrit work is not a translation but it was meant to help translators 4.Paarasiikaprakaa;sa Sub: bilingual grammar of Persian;author:Bihaari .K.r.s.nadaasa Mi;sra under Akbar's(1555-1604) patronage; ed.Vibhuutibhuu.sa.na Bhattacharya,?Sarasvati Bhavana Granthamala vol.95, Sampurnaanand Sanskrit Vishvavidyalaya, Varanasi, 1965 First puiblished from Varanasi in 1865; then ed.Weber,Berlin,1985; If these have already been brought to notice in these columns I express regret. DB ? ? ? ? --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Sven Sellmer wrote: From: Sven Sellmer Subject: Translations into Sanskrit To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 19 March, 2009, 5:53 PM Dear Colleagues, lately I was asked about early translations into Sanskrit and noticed that this is quite an interesting question I know little about. Is anybody aware of articles or books on this topic? In particular, I would be curious to learn about the earliest translations into Sanskrit of texts originally composed in languages others than Middle Indo-Aryan ones (as only these I would consider translations in the full sense). Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 r. nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl ? ? ? Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Mon Mar 23 09:04:25 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 14:34:25 +0530 Subject: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) Message-ID: <161227085557.23782.11396857591946492351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 8617 Lines: 192 Of course you are true Professor Bijlert. I had taken Sanskrit for granted forgetting that it is not.To tell the truth?in present Bengal language training itself is regarded as a?drudgery and unnecessary wastage of time and energy best avoided or bypassed or stuffed into a shortcut. As for?Sanskrit, many suffer from illusory visions of Sanskrit as an artificial language. Bleak times indeed DB --- On Mon, 23/3/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 23 March, 2009, 1:28 PM Not only the gradual loss of English is to be deplored. Also Sanskrit had been thrown out of the educational system in some Indian states, with the result that the knowledge of the vernacular State language also suffers. Many words in e.g. Hindi or Bengali are tatsama's. Spelling-errors also increasingly occur as a result of lack of knowledge about the word-formation of tatsama's. Many users of Indian languages are probably not even aware anymore of the parent language from which many of their loanwords have issued. Of course the Bengali reformers like Rammohun and Vidyasagar pleaded for English education (in English) but still knew their Sanskrit. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Dipak Bhattacharya Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 19:54 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) The thread may have been lost but perhaps the?question that brought in the topic of culture preservation was the inability of a large number of Indian Sanskritists to understand English. In fact this state of affairs is a creation of current politics. A language of international standing apart from one's mother tongue, must be a part of the curriculum in the University stage. This principle is followed in every civilized society where modern education has made a place for itself.[[Perhaps many in India might experience that?this is not true of Americans ie U.S. citizens. But perhaps, it is really not so. It seems untrue of Americans perhaps because poorly educated Americans too can afford to tour India. They too enter into Institutes of higher study. It is they who leave the poor impression. But the above principle seems to have been followed when one talks with a highly educated American.]] In India misplaced patriotism has been the reason for?banishing English as a compulsory subject?from the University curricula in some states.?Such steps might not greatly harm education?in countries where elaborate arrangement for translation and of quickly getting informed of the latest developments in research exists. This is not possible in India for many reasons -- copyright, prohibitive cost of getting permission, unwillingness of publishers to explore such possibilities. For example, R.H.Robins' General Linguistics has been translated into French. No Indian publisher ever thought of that.? As a result the abolition of English has increased the number of graduates but has?also?caused a severe lowering of the standard of education. Even most of the PhD theses produced in these states cannot be sent to states where a different language is spoken. It is forgotten that?one need not lose one's culture by preparing oneself to get acquainted with researches?being carried?on in the world outside India. On the contrary one enriches oneself and one's culture thereby.That was the reason, explicitly stated by the?reformers of Bengal?in the nineteenth century, for the then?emphasis on English education. Unfortunately,?the?condition is still valid and will remain so till India is industrially an advanced country.? DB ? --- On Sun, 22/3/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Re: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 22 March, 2009, 11:05 PM I do not wish to defend British policies from the days of the Company Raj, but I am only pointing to the fact that Macaulay edited the Indian Penal Code which is still in use in South Asia (with the necessary amendments). Moreover, Bengali Renaissance reformers like Raja Rammohun Roy, prince Dwarkanath Tagore and Vidyasagar were far more incisevely critical of the Brahmanical culture of their day than Macaulay ever could be. The fiercest critics of Indian culture were not the British but the Indian reformers themselves. Macaulay's Minute on education was fully endorsed by the then Hindu reformers. The Indian reformers themselves were clamoring for English education. I think we should not forget this fact. Presentday criticism of Macaulay may ultimately be used to tacitly endorse upper-caste Hindu reactionary world-views. Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens Gruenendahl, Reinhold Verzonden: zondag 22 maart 2009 18:16 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: AW: Help preserve cultural diversity (Was: Language barriers --- financial barriers) I have great sympathy for Paolo Magnone's point. However, there is one aspect that I see differently. Paolo Magnone wrote: ... I suspect there is as much typically Anglosaxon matter-of-factness speaking in Macaulay's infamous "Minute on Indian Education" as there is? typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual in Hegel's winged eulogy of India. ... To leave that heroic age of the beginnings (the age of the "Renaissance orientale", contributed to by many but eminently embodied by German Romanticism ... _______________________ With regard to Hegel, "German longing", Romanticism etc. it may be helpful to take a look at the chapter on Hegel in Wilhelm Halbfa?'s "Indien und Europa". Here are a few quotes from the English translation (1988): p. 86: [Hegel] sought advice and information from his colleague at the University of Berlin, the pioneer Sanskritist and linguist F. Bopp [and read H. T. Colebrooke's first essay "On the Philosophy of the Hindus"], .... [...but, it bears reminding:] p. 85: (...) Hegel was not an indologist. [Paolo Magnone correctly addresses Hegel as a philospher.] p. 95: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from his anti-Romantic attitude and his criticism of the Romantic glorification of India. However, F. Schlegel himself subsequently revised and modified his evaluation of the Indian tradition, and he distanced himself from the unqualified enthusiasm of his earlier statements. p. 85: Hegel's interest in India is inseparable from that of the Romantics: He was one of the heirs, but also the most rigorous critic of the Romantic conception of India. What distinguishes his approach above all from that of the Romantics is his commitment to the present, and his sense of an irreversible direction of history. He does not glorify origins and early stages. The spirit of world history progresses to greater richness and complexity. What has been in the beginning cannot be richer and more perfect. It may be true that India, as part of the Orient, is a land of "sunrise," of early origins and "childhood." But this does not justify nostalgia and contempt of the European present. We cannot and need not return to the Orient: It is a matter of the past. ______ I may add that, so far, I have not come across a "German indologist" of any description who had a "typically German longing for the ineffable transfactual", or who wanted to reverse the course of history according to a presumed "Oriental" model. This is but a small illustration of the fundamental flaw of Raymond Schwab "Oriental Renaissance". As I have pointed out elsewhere: When Edward Said stumbled across Schwab's book, roughly two decades after its publication (1950), he decided that it had been "unreasonably ignored". This is one point on which I take the liberty to disagree with Said. Reinhold Gr?nendahl ? ? ? Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Mar 23 13:15:47 2009 From: klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 15:15:47 +0200 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085565.23782.7231055626603365363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 8754 Lines: 182 Dear colleagues, I have noted down following references. They hail from various sources and I have not seen all of the books myself. Translations from Indian Languages: CAKRAVARTI, R?jagop?la: Translated from Bengal? Bankim Candra Ca??op?dhy?y?s Candra?ekhar with new title as ?aivalin?. Mysore 1917. DESIKAN, S. N. Srirama: Sanskrit translations of Tamil and Telugu classics, e.g. Tirukkural Porutpal, Auvaiy?r, Tirupp?vai, Vemana, Padyamulu, Kamba R?m?ya?am B?lak?ndam, Pattuppattu, Ettuttokai. PARAM?NANDA Pa??it: A Sanskrit metrical version and Sanskrit commentary of Bih?r? L?l's Satsa?, published together with the original Braj text under the name ???g?rasapta?at?. Benares 1873. ?IROMA?I, S?t?r?ma Nay?c?rya: Tagore: G?t??jali. Translated from Bengal? into Sanskrit. 1917. VARADACHARYA (or -chari), S. T. G.: wrote books in Telugu, translated Telugu classics into Sanskrit. VARMA, Vikramadeva: R?macaritam?nasa. Translated from Tulas?d?sa?s Hind?. 1918. Translations from non-Indian Languages: AYYANGAR, M. R. Rajagopala: Sanskrit translation of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam. 1940. BROCKHAUS, Hermann: "?ber Homer's Ilias in Sanskrit", ZDMG 6, 1852, 108f. (cf. Brown, The prosody of the Telugu and Sancrit Languages. Madras 1827, 4). FLECHIA, Giovanni: "Versione sanscrita dell' episodio dantesco Francesca da Rimini", Ricordo ai colleghi indologi del Congresso orientalistico di Berlino. 1881. GODBOLE, Narayan Bal Krishna: ?sop's Fables translated into Sanskrit from the Mar?thi. Bombay 1877. MISRA, Sadal: compiled the Sanskrit Section in J. B. GILCHRIST: The Oriental Fabulist or polyglott Translations of Esop's and other ancient Fables from the English language into Hindoostanee, Persian, Brij B,hak,ha, Bangla, and Sunkrit in the Roman Character by various Hands, under the direction and superintendence of J.G., for the Use of the College of Fort William. Calcutta 1803. PAVOLINI, Paolo Emilio: translated into Sanskrit: "?vetadv?pag?th?m?lik?", GSAI 28, 1916-17, 167-177 (20 English poems). RO?R, Eduard, tr.: Mah?kavi Sek?p?r pra??ta n??aker marm?nur?pa Lembs?eler katipaya ?khy?yika anuv?dita ha?a. 2+ 212 p. Calcutta 1853 (Ch. Lamb's tales from Shakespeare). VARMA, R?jar?ja (1863?1918): prose translation of the Othello publ. as Udd?lakacarita. 1???. And does nobody remember Cappeller?: CAPPELLER, Carl: "Subh??itam?lik?. Eine Auswahl von Spr?chen deutscher Dichter in Sanskrit nachgebildet", Jahresbericht der Pfeiffer'schen Lehr- und erziehungsanstalt. Jena 1902, also in IA 1903 and as a separate publication. Yavana?atakam. (Hundert Sanskrit-Strophen nach griechischen Dichter). Jena 1903, also in IA 1905. Parsi Sanskrit (at least following translated from Avesta or Pahlavi): GEIGER, Wilhelm: habil.diss. Aogemada?c?, ein Parsentraktat in P?zend, Altbaktrisch und Sanskrit. 160 p. Erlangen 1878. JAMASP ASA, Kaikhusroo Dastur Minocher: diss. The Pahlavi-Pazend Text of the Aogemada?ca. MS. 1966, publ. as Aogemada?c?. A Zoroastrian Liturgy. 119 p. 54 pl. SWA 397. Vienna 1982 (with facs. of Pazand, Sanskrit and Gujarati versions). BHARUCHA, Ervad Sheriarji Dadabhai & M. P. KHAREGHAT, ed.: Arda- Gv?r?. Ed. by E.Sh.D.Bh. with Old Gujarati version by M.P.Kh. 100 p. Collected Sanskrit Writings of the Parsis 5. Bombay 1920. DHALLA, Maneckji Nusserwanji: ed. & tr. Khordah Avesta. 1. The Nyaishes of Zoroastrian Litanies. Avestan Text with the Pahlavi, Sanskrit, Persian and Gujarati versions. 12+235 p. Indo-Ir. Ser. 6. N.Y. 1908. F?HRER, A.: On Khordah-Avesta Of Nery?sangh, JBRAS 16:42, 1883, ??-??. SPIEGEL, Friedrich von: Grammatik der P?rsi-Sprache nebst Sprachproben. Lp. 1851 (P?zend, with several extracts from the P?zend M?n?g-? Xrad with Sanskrit and German translations). SACHAU, Eduard, ed.: ?Contributions to the knowledge of Parsee Literature?, JRAS 4, 1870, 229-283 (specimens of M?n?k-i ?rat in Pehlevi and Sanskrit). WEST, Edward William, ed.: Book of the Mainy?-i Khard. P?zand, Sanskrit, and English, with a Glossary. 1871. BHARUCHA, Ervad Sheriarji Dadabhai, ed.: Mainy?i Khard. Collected Sanskrit Writings of the Parsis 3. Bombay 1912. ANKLESARIA, Ervad Tehmuras Dinshaw: D?n?k-u mainy?-i Khard. Pahlavi, Pazand and Sanskrit Texts. Bombay 1913. BHARUCHA, Ervad Sheriarji Dadabhai, ed.: Skanda Gumani Gujara. 101 p. Collected Sanskrit Writings of the Parsis 4. Bombay 1913. SPIEGEL, Ludwig Friedrich Ernst von: ed. Neriosengh's Sanskrit- Uebersetzung des Ya?na. Herausgegeben und erl?utert. 249 p. Lp. 1861. BURNOUF, Eug?ne: Commentaire sur le Ya?na, l'un des livres religieux des Parses. 1-2. 153+592+196 & ??? p. P. 1833-35 (Yasna 1 in Avesta and Sanskrit with commentary). DEGHAN, K.: Der Awesta-Text Sr?? Ya?t (Yasna 57) mit Pahlavi und Sanskrit?bersetzung. 19??. KOSSOVI?, Kaetan Andreevi? (Cajetan Kossovich): ??etyre stat?i iz Zendavesty, s prisovokupleniem transkripcii, russkago i latinskago perevod, ob?jasnenij, kriti?eskih prime?anij, sanskritskago perevoda i sravnitel?nago glossarija?, Trudy vost. otd. arh. ob??. 8, 1861 (Yasna?). MILLS, Lawrence Heyworth: A Study of the Five Zoroastrian G?th?s, with the Zend, Pahlavi, Sanskrit, and Persian translations. 1-2. 1892-94. ------ Letter on an Avesta-Sanskrit Manuscript of Yasna in Oxford, AJPh 15, 1894, 120f. ------ ?Yasna XXVIII?, Festgruss Roth 1893, ??-??. ------ ?The Sanskrit Equivalent of Yasna XLIV?, Actes di XIe Congr?s intern. des Orientalistes, Paris 1997, 1 section 1899, 317-326. ------ ?The Ahuna Vairya from Yasna XXVII, 13, with its Pahlavi and Sanskrit translations?, JRAS 1910, 57-68, 641-657 (ed. and transl.). ------ ?Yasna XLIV, 1-10, a study prospective a new ed. of S.B.E. XXXI?, ZDMG 65, 1911, 325-335. ------ ?Yasna XLIV, 11-20, a study re a new ed.?, ZDMG 66, 1912, 461-468. ------ ?Yasna XXIX in its Sanskrit Equivalent?, Le Mus?on 13, 1912, 1-26. ------ The Yasna 29 and 31 in its Sanskrit Equivalents. Oxford 1914. ------ ?Yasna XXX?, ZDMG 68, 1914, 149-156 (in Sanskrit). ------ ?The Yasna 31?, Le Mus?on 15, 1914?, ??-??. ------ ?The Yasna 32, 1-8, in its Indian Equivalent?, JRAS 1915, 205-211 (ed. and transl. with notes). ------ ?The Yasna 32, 9-15, in its Indian Equivalent?, JRAS 1916, 103-112 (ed. and tr. with notes) . ------ ?The Yasna XLVIII, in its Indian Equivalent ?, JBRAS 24:3 (70), 1914-16, 596-603. ------ ?The Yasna 43, 1-6, in its Sanskrit forms?, JRAS 1917, 541-5??. ------ ?The Yasna 43, 7-16, in its Sanskrit forms?, JRAS 1917, 753-771. ------ ?Yasna XLVII of the G?th? Spe?t?mainyu rendered in its Sanskrit equivalents?, JRAS 1919, 15-23. TARAPOREWALA, Irach J. S.: "A Sanskrit version of Yasna IX", Sir Asutosh Mookerjee Silver Jubilee Volumes 3:2, Calcutta 1925. UNVALA, Jamshedji Maneckji: ed. with Pehlevi and Sanskrit translations: Neryosangh?s Sanskrit version of the H?m Ya?t (Yasna IX-XI), with the original Avesta and its pahlavi version. Ed. & transl. with notes and glossarial index. 15+199 p. Wien 1924. Bible and Christian literature, see YOUNG, Robert Fox: "Church Sanskrit: an approach of Christian scholars to Hinduism in the 19th century," WZKS 23, 1979, 205-231. The New Testament of Our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ: ??varasya sarvav?ky?ni. Tr. by Serampore Missionaries. 1-3. Serampore 1808-11. BALLANTYNE, James Robert: In Sanskrit: Genesis, chapters 1?3: The Bible for Pandits. fasc. 1. London & Benares 1860 (all published). YATES, William: Bible translations: Psalms in Sanskrit. 184? (in ?loka metre), some other parts in Sanskrit. WENGER, John: translated parts of the Bible (both OT & NT) into Sanskrit, some (e.g. Job) directly from Hebrew into Sanskrit metre. CAREY, William: Matthew 1-3 in his A Grammar of the Sungskrit Language. Serampore 1806, 895-901. BURRITT, Elihu: A Sanskrit Handbook for the fireside. L. 1876 (with the Sanskrit transl. of the Gospel acc. to John as exercise). MILL, William Hodge: translated into Sanskrit: Christa-sa?g?ta or History of Christ. Calcutta 1831, 2nd ed. 1837. ------ The Sermon on the Mount. 183?. WENGER, John: translated many hymns and tracts into Sanskrit and Bengali. John Muir wrote Christian and text books in Sanskrit, i.al. Indian history and English geography. Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Institute for Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 Fax +358-(0)9-191 22094 Email Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Mar 23 20:16:06 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 16:16:06 -0400 Subject: Gaja Sastra Message-ID: <161227085591.23782.900962428417954183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 755 Lines: 17 A recent useful work: Mahar.si Paalakaapya's Gaja'saastram with the Sanskrit commentary Bhaavasandar'sinii of Anantak.r.s.nbha.t.taaraka with an English translation and 136 illustrations of various elephants, edited by Dr. Siddharth Yeshwant Wakankar and Vaidya Prof. V. B. Mhaiskar; Delhi: Bharatiya Kala Prakashan, 2006. Regards, George -----Original Message----- >From: Patrick Olivelle >Sent: Mar 23, 2009 10:30 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Gaja Sastra > >A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or >translations of Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder >whether any of you, more up to date on elephants than I am, can >provide some guidance. Thanks. > >Patrick Olivelle From pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM Mon Mar 23 16:24:16 2009 From: pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM (Pankaj Jain) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 16:24:16 +0000 Subject: My fall 2009 online courses on Sanskrit and on Jainism Message-ID: <161227085579.23782.5150307417407422495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1298 Lines: 34 With immense gratitude to my supervisors and colleagues at NC State, I am excited to share that my two courses here will also have an online section. Thus, students from anywhere in the world can log into the class and can take these classes. I will greatly appreciate your help in letting any interested students know about these courses. _________________________________________________________________________ FOR THE FIRST TIME, An online UNIVERSITY COURSE ON JAINISM, an ancient Indian religion: >From Mahavira to Mahatma Gandhi: The Nonviolent Jain Traditions of India Rel 298-004 105 Withers Hall Wednesdays 6 ? 8.50pm _________________________________________________________________________ FOR THE FIRST TIME, An online UNIVERSITY COURSE ON SANSKRIT, an ancient classical Indian language: Sanskrit Course for 3 credits FL 295 ? 005 Tuesdays, Thursdays 1.30 to 2:45 pm 202, Poe Hall _________________________________________________________________________ For more info: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Pankaj Jain पंकज ज&#2374;न, Departments of Religion and Foreign Languages and Literatures, North Carolina State University. http://www.indicuniversity.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 23 16:19:14 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 17:19:14 +0100 Subject: SARIT project support letters Message-ID: <161227085582.23782.3016333466678077785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 428 Lines: 17 Dear Colleagues, Richard Mahoney and I would like to thank all those of you who very kindly penned letters of support for the SARIT application that we are making to the British Association for South Asian Studies. They have all gone off to the committee now, and we await the decision with bated breath. Best wishes, and thanks again, Dominik Wujastyk and pp Richard Mahoney INDOLOGY website -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Tue Mar 24 01:31:41 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 09 18:31:41 -0700 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <49C7CF67.5060408@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227085594.23782.12901170584402952892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 175 Lines: 9 Here is another reference: /Arabic Astronomy in Sanskrit: Al-Birjandion Tadhkira II, Chaper 11 and its Sanskrit Translation/. Brill, Leiden, 2002. Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann From meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL Tue Mar 24 08:03:10 2009 From: meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL (G.J. Meulenbeld) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 09 09:03:10 +0100 Subject: Gaja Sastra Message-ID: <161227085597.23782.1305835495503640554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 721 Lines: 26 Dear Colleague, A survey of he literature on gaja'saastra up to about CE 2000 can be found in my 'A history of Indian medical literature', vol. IIA, chapter 6: Authors and works on veterinary medicine, p.557--579. I hope this may be useful to your anthropology colleague. Jan Meulenbeld ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Olivelle" To: Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: Gaja Sastra >A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or translations of >Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder whether any of you, more >up to date on elephants than I am, can provide some guidance. Thanks. > > Patrick Olivelle > From jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE Tue Mar 24 09:42:42 2009 From: jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE (Jean-Michel Delire) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 09 10:42:42 +0100 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085600.23782.15285261910018278835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 430 Lines: 8 Concerning the translation of Arabic texts, especially in astronomy, there is also the following article : S.M.Razaullah Ansari, "Islamic Astronomy in India during 16th-18th Centuries and its Interaction with Traditional Indian Astronomy", pp.145-156, 500 Years of Tantrasangraha (ed.M.S.Sriram, K.Ramasubramanian, M.D.Srinivas), IIAS, Shimla, 2002 J.M.Delire, Alta?r Centre for the History of Science, University of Brussels From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Mar 24 17:09:14 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 09 13:09:14 -0400 Subject: Gaja Sastra Message-ID: <161227085606.23782.536121765913106215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 733 Lines: 16 I own a ms book on the diseases of elephants in some form of 'Hindi' or 'Rajasthani' in which the diseases are illustrated in the form of demons attacking the elephants. I think I have a complete set of rough and ready digitized images around somewhere. I saw a sheet or two of what appeared to be the same book on display in the Sanjay Sharma Museum and Research Institute, Jaipur. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Tue Mar 24 13:56:49 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 09 19:26:49 +0530 Subject: Gaja Sastra Message-ID: <161227085602.23782.1718174488671527366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1113 Lines: 37 Could you kindly give?the publication details to make the information more useful? DB --- On Tue, 24/3/09, G.J. Meulenbeld wrote: From: G.J. Meulenbeld Subject: Re: Gaja Sastra To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 24 March, 2009, 1:33 PM Dear Colleague, A survey of he literature on gaja'saastra up to about CE 2000 can be found in my 'A history of Indian medical literature', vol. IIA, chapter 6: Authors and works on veterinary medicine, p.557--579. I hope this may be useful to your anthropology colleague. Jan Meulenbeld ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Olivelle" To: Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: Gaja Sastra > A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or translations of Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder whether any of you, more up to date on elephants than I am, can provide some guidance. Thanks. > > Patrick Olivelle > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Mar 24 19:24:58 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 09 20:24:58 +0100 Subject: Gaja Sastra In-Reply-To: <31827.36397.qm@web8602.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227085609.23782.1555329005975346039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1570 Lines: 56 author = {Gerrit Jan Meulenbeld}, title = {A History of Indian Medical Literature}, publisher = {Egbert Forsten}, year = {1999--2002}, address = {Groningen}, note = {Volumes IA, IB, IIA, IIB, III}, isbn = {9069801248}, Link to publisher: http://tinyurl.com/c8uunf -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > Could you kindly give?the publication details to make the information more useful? > DB > > --- On Tue, 24/3/09, G.J. Meulenbeld wrote: > > > From: G.J. Meulenbeld > Subject: Re: Gaja Sastra > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Tuesday, 24 March, 2009, 1:33 PM > > > Dear Colleague, > > A survey of he literature on gaja'saastra up to about CE 2000 can be found in my 'A history of Indian medical literature', vol. IIA, chapter 6: Authors and works on veterinary medicine, p.557--579. > I hope this may be useful to your anthropology colleague. > > Jan Meulenbeld > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Olivelle" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:30 PM > Subject: Gaja Sastra > > >> A colleague in Anthropology asked me about new studies or translations of Gaja Sastras -- on elephants in Sanskrit. I wonder whether any of you, more up to date on elephants than I am, can provide some guidance. Thanks. >> >> Patrick Olivelle >> > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > From rospatt at BERKELEY.EDU Wed Mar 25 01:15:56 2009 From: rospatt at BERKELEY.EDU (Alexander von Rospatt) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 09 07:00:56 +0545 Subject: performing life-cycle rites for deities Message-ID: <161227085612.23782.13435569770609354703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1165 Lines: 32 As I am studying Newar Buddhist consecration rituals for images, caityas and so on, I am wondering how much of a tradition of performing the sa?sk?ra life-cycle rites as part of such consecration rites there is outside (Newar) Buddhism. I am aware that such rites are indeed performed for the generation of Agni when installing the fire, but it is not clear to me to which extent the sa?sk?ras (not just conception and birth, but also further rites up to the wedding) are also performed for the consecration of images. The sa?sk?ras do form an integral part of the consecration ceremony performed in the ?aiva tradition preserved among the Newars. Hence, I suppose that such practice exists (or existed) also in other Hindu traditions, but I have no hard evidence in support. Any help to identify such evidence would be much appreciated. Alexander Rospatt ---------------- Alexander von Rospatt, Professor Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies Group in Buddhist Studies University of California 7233 Dwinelle Hall # 2540 Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 USA Phone: +1-510-6421610 Fax: +1-510-6432959 Email: rospatt at berkeley.edu From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Wed Mar 25 10:49:08 2009 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 09 11:49:08 +0100 Subject: TR: Poste de Prof. Paris III Message-ID: <161227085617.23782.15106282274455383618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1505 Lines: 47 -----Message d'origine----- De : Mondes Iranien et Indien [mailto:iran-inde at ivry.cnrs.fr] Envoy? : mercredi 25 mars 2009 11:04 ? : destinataires inconnus: Objet : Poste de Prof. Paris III http://www.univ-paris3.fr/1236271745172/0/fiche___actualite/&RH=ACCUEIL I - Liste des emplois publi?s pour l'Universit? PARIS 3 dont 15? PR Histoire et traditions textuelles de l?Inde et de l?Asie du Sud-Est 0856 Orient et Monde arabe II - Les candidatures s'effectuent par voie t?l?matique sur le site Internet du minist?re de l'enseignement sup?rieur et de la recherche : http://www.enseignementsup-recherche.gouv.fr, rubrique ?concours, emploi et carri?res? puis ?galaxie? du 03 mars 2009 ? 10h00, heure de Paris, jusqu'au 02 avril 2009 16h00, heure de Paris. III -La composition du dossier, est ? consulter sur l'arr?t? du 15 septembre 2008 - Journal Officiel du 23 septembre 2008, pour les MCF. et pour les PR : Les dossiers complets doivent ?tre adress?s par courrier postal avant le 02 avril 2009 avant minuit le cachet de la poste faisant foi, ? l'adresse suivante : Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - PARIS 3 Bureau du personnel enseignant - PR/MCF / Section/n? 17, rue de la Sorbonne - 75005 PARIS Aucun dossier ni document compl?mentaire ne sera pris en compte apr?s cette date. NB : La publication des emplois d'enseignants -chercheurs ne se fait plus au Journal Officiel, les candidats doivent se connecter sur le site du Minist?re de l'enseignement sup?rieur et de la recherche. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed Mar 25 07:21:20 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 09 12:51:20 +0530 Subject: performing life-cycle rites for deities Message-ID: <161227085614.23782.11492612669261736375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3524 Lines: 44 250309 Dear Professor Rospatt, The available descriptions do not confirm that the ritual representation of the samsk?ras is a general feature of Hindu initiation/initial rites. They are not enacted in the Vedic Agny?dheya. As far as I could study a meticulous representation will be missed also in the smaarta samskaaras. It is the professedly tantric fire generation, also called homa, in its pa?cop?san? variety that enacts with every detail. Perhaps it will be difficult to establish that they formed part of the initial ritual of? Buddhsit tantra from the beginning. Homa is Vedic after all. In the Buddhist tantric texts we do find reference to homa. It was also carried abroad with Buddhism. But this should reflect a late situation. I cannot help a bit of involuntary self propaganda in stating that matter in both the varieties came for discussion by me in the seventies. The pa?cop?san? variety was dealt with in some detail? in a chapter on the ??kta and Vaishnava tantric initiations in 'Mythological and ritual symbolism' (Calcutta 1984,chapters 4 and 5, pp.194-208; published ten years after writing). [I caution you that you will find the entire fourth chapter plagiarized in a multi-volume publication by Cosmo Publications that appeared in 1999. I got compliments from a well-wisher who judged that the plagiarism meant that my study had some worth. But you will miss a lot by consulting the material from the Cosmo publication. Its dropping of the fifth chapter means that the copyist had not understood the matter which would be incomplete and not fully intelligible from the fourth chapter alone.] The available K?lacakray?na material for the parallel seka was dealt with by me in 'The Catu.sk?ya doctrine in the mantranaya'(Journal of research, Visva Bharati, 1977-78). This is ascribed to N?rop?. That means even as late as the tenth century the sm?rta samk?ras, reported by you were missing in Buddhist mantranaya though one finds the word homa there. Perhaps this is enough Best for all Dipak Bhattacharya --- On Wed, 25/3/09, Alexander von Rospatt wrote: From: Alexander von Rospatt Subject: performing life-cycle rites for deities To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 25 March, 2009, 6:45 AM As I am studying Newar Buddhist consecration rituals for images, caityas and so on, I am wondering how much of a tradition of performing the sa?sk?ra life-cycle rites? as part of such consecration rites there is outside (Newar) Buddhism. I am aware that such rites are indeed performed for the generation of Agni when installing the fire, but it is not clear to me to which extent the sa?sk?ras (not just conception and birth, but also further rites up to the wedding) are also performed for the consecration of images. The sa?sk?ras do form an integral part of the consecration ceremony performed in the ?aiva tradition preserved among the Newars. Hence, I suppose that such practice exists (or existed) also in other Hindu traditions, but I have no hard evidence in support. Any help to identify such evidence would be much appreciated. Alexander Rospatt ---------------- Alexander von Rospatt, Professor Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies Group in Buddhist Studies University of California 7233 Dwinelle Hall # 2540 Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 USA Phone: +1-510-6421610 Fax: +1-510-6432959 Email:? rospatt at berkeley.edu Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 26 07:42:31 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 09 07:42:31 +0000 Subject: Leiden Indological Summer School 2009 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227085620.23782.6647524174309930651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1339 Lines: 35 [forwarded upon request, but without the flyer] Apologies for cross-postings! Dear Sir / Madam, We are happy to announce the fourth edition of the Leiden Summer School in Languages and Linguistics which will be held from 27 July - 7 August 2009 at the Faculty of Humanities of Leiden University. The Summer School offers a number of courses on a wide range of subjects in the field of languages and linguistics. This year, the Summer School will consist of seven programmes, including courses for beginners as well as for advanced students, taught by internationally renowned specialists: Indo-European Programme Germanic Programme Iranian Programme Indological Programme Semitic Programme Russian Programme Demotic Papyrology For more information and registration, visit: http://www.hum.leiden.edu/summerschool/ . Please do pass this message on to anyone possibly interested. We attach a flyer which can be put on a notice board. Yours sincerely, Alexander Lubotsky (director) Tina Janssen (organizer) Comparative Indo-European Linguistics Leiden University PO Box 9515 NL-2300 RA Leiden The Netherlands _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 26 19:52:32 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 09 15:52:32 -0400 Subject: Gaja Sastra Message-ID: <161227085623.23782.6327689851155785081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1262 Lines: 33 This was published in 2006: LC Control No.: 2005322092 Personal Name: Pa?laka?pya. Uniform Title: Gajas?a?stra. English & Sanskrit Main Title: Mahars?i Pa?laka?pya's Gajas?a?stram : with the Sanskrit commentary, Bha?vasandars?ini? of Anantakr?s?n?abhat?t?a?raka : with an English translation and 136 illustrations of various elephants / edited by Siddharth Yeshwant Wakankar & V.B. Mhaiskar. Published/Created: Delhi : Bharatiya Kala Prakashan, 2006. Description: xxii, 462 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. ISBN: 8180900169 CALL NUMBER: QL737.P98 P3613 2006 This is based on a ms prepared for the Rajas of Aundh in 1926 by Pdt. V. Vijayaraghavacharya, the English presumably done by the Pandit, and the black and white ills. being in the ms. It is not known what ms or mss it was based on. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 26 22:53:35 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 09 18:53:35 -0400 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085626.23782.10748186689529583600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1186 Lines: 23 According to A. L. Mudaliyar, Bibliography of the books, papers & other contributions of Dr. V. Raghavan (Ahmedabad: New Order Book Co., 1968), p. 21-22, a work by V. Raghavan discusses some of these: V. Raghavan, Modern Sanskrit Writings, Adyar Library Series, No. P. 31 [sic]. Adyar, Madras: The Adyar Library Book and Research Centre, 1956. Also in Adyar Library Bulletin, 20 (1956), pp. 20-56. Amongst other modern writings in Sanskrit discussed by Raghavan, according to Mudaliyar, are "Sanskrit versions of the Bible, translations of of English works of Western authors and Indian authors...." I have a distinct but quite possibly false recollection that Raghavan wrote an article or pamphlet entitled "The Bible in Sanskrit," but I can't locate a copy anywhere online. Maybe a section from the above was published separately. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 27 06:08:09 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan Houben) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 09 07:08:09 +0100 Subject: position in tibetan history and philology Message-ID: <161227085628.23782.3815397472256657234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 989 Lines: 25 Dear Members of the List, Applications are invited for a research professorate ("direction d'?tudes") in tibetan history and philology at the prestigious "Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes," IVe Section, Sciences historiques et philologiques, founded in 1868 and where among others Ferdinand de Saussure, Louis Renou and Jean and Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat have been teaching. A CV and publication list showing a very thorough background in tibetan history and philology are required; a solid knowledge of French is a prerequisite. For more information see the Bulletin officiel of the ministry of higher education of 9 March: http://www.enseignementsup-recherche.gouv.fr/pid20536/rubrique-bo.html?cid_bo=24193 -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Sciences historiques et philologiques, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Mar 27 21:09:50 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 09 17:09:50 -0400 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085630.23782.5540258869654992707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1370 Lines: 28 There is an anthology of Christian works in Sanskrit by Jean Calmette, S.J. (1692-1740), William Hodge Mill (1792-1853), John Muir (1810-1852), and Brahmabandhava Upadhyaya (1861-1907): LC Control No.: 96902803 Personal Name: Amaladass, Anand, 1943- Main Title: The Indian Christiad : a concise anthology of didactic and devotional literature in early Church Sanskrit / Anand Amaladass and Richard Fox Young. Published/Created: Anand, Gujarat, India : Gujarat Sahitya Prakash, 1995. Description: xviii, 378 p. ; 22 cm. It includes a section of "Common Prayers" attributed by the editors to Calmette, many of them standard Catholic prayers translated into Sanskrit, others original compositions. The editors believe these were at one time in actual use by South Indian Catholics, but that the memory of their use had been forgotten. The bibiography at the end contains a section Church Sanskrit, of published and ms works of the genre, and another Secondary Sources, including some other discussions of the subject. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Mar 28 07:43:19 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 09 02:43:19 -0500 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227085632.23782.11517656489882820840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 782 Lines: 17 I remember being told many years ago that Freud had been translated into Sanskrit, but have never seen such works, nor have any bibliographical information on them. Is anyone familiar with this? Also, there were obviously different motives for producing Sanskrit translations -- e.g., Christian missionaries trying to get out the "good word," or "back-translating" Chinese or Tibetan works whose Skt originals are no longer extant -- but some must have been done due to an interest and curiosity on the part of Sanskrit pandits themselves for accessible versions of stimulating works (such as, I would imagine, would be the case with works of de Saussure or Freud). Has anyone attempted an anthropology of Sanskrit translations, sorting out the different motives? Dan Lusthaus From garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG Sat Mar 28 18:19:31 2009 From: garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 09 19:19:31 +0100 Subject: JSAWS 11/1 Message-ID: <161227085634.23782.13269325080345766694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 930 Lines: 31 Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am happy to announce Vol. 11/1 of the new *Journal of South Asia Women Studies* (established in 1995) http://asiatica.org/ In this issue: Note from the Editor: The New Political Scenario in Nepal and in Afghanistan and The Fairy Tale of the ?Good Taliban? Paper: "Female Rishis and Philosophers in the Veda?", by Michael Witzel Book Reviews Summary of "Female Rishis and Philosophers in the Veda?" It is a traditional but common misconception that a considerable number of ?gvedic hymns were composed by women. Though female authors and interlocutors are not entirely absent from the Vedas, the role of 'literate' women in the ?gveda will have to be re-evaluated. The traditional names given for female ?gvedic authors include those derived from the wordings of the hymns but also personified Belief, Speech and a bitch. Enjoy it! Dr Enrica Garzilli Editor-in-Chief From pathompongb at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 29 06:47:36 2009 From: pathompongb at YAHOO.COM (Pathompong Bodhiprasiddhinand) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 09 23:47:36 -0700 Subject: Job at Mahidol University Message-ID: <161227085637.23782.15624666770500512183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 461 Lines: 22 Dear all, The Department of Humanities, Faculty of Social Sciences and Humanities, Mahidol University, Bangkok, is seeking a lecturer in (Indian/Tibetan) Mahayana Buddhism for an international PhD programme in Buddhist Studies. Applicants must be ready to teach several Sanskrit sutras, belonging to both Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions. For further details, please contact me off the list. Best wishes, Pathompong Bodhiprasiddhinand From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 30 11:06:28 2009 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 09 04:06:28 -0700 Subject: Devavanipravesika Sanskrit text is now available Message-ID: <161227085642.23782.543433345211696547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 108 Lines: 7 Devavanipravesika is now available from Motilal Banarsidass. Paperback price is Rs 395 ? Dean Anderson ? From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Sun Mar 29 20:56:43 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 09 09:56:43 +1300 Subject: Fwd: [ACAT] OCLC Review Board Survey on Shared Data Creation and Stewardship Message-ID: <161227085639.23782.6227324989900162313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4374 Lines: 124 Dear Colleagues, Almost all of us are completely dependent on OCLC derived bibliographic records so this current review should be of some interest. Best regards, Richard MAHONEY -----Forwarded Message----- From: "Schwitzner, Ted" To: AUTOCAT at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Subject: [ACAT] OCLC Review Board Survey on Shared Data Creation and Stewardship Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:50:35 -0500 Greetings colleagues, The OCLC Review Board on Shared Data Creation and Stewardship seeks the feedback of the library community on the existing guidelines for record use, the policy that was proposed in November 2008, and on uses of records. Please see the message below from the Review Board Chair, Jennifer Younger, that will provide more information about the survey. Please pardon the duplication of this message, as the Review Board hopes to reach all those interested in this issue. Please feel free to redistribute. Thank you for your time and input, Ted Schwitzner OCLC Members Council Delegate (ILLINET) and Review Board Member Dear Colleague: As chair of the OCLC Review Board of Shared Data Creation and Stewardship, I invite you to participate in a Web-based survey among librarians and other interested constituents. The primary goal of this survey is to gather input from both OCLC members and non-members about a proposed OCLC policy, Policy for Use and Transfer of WorldCat(r) Records. The Review Board will consider the results of this survey in its recommendations to OCLC. Please review the existing guidelines and proposed policy if you have not already done so: * Guidelines: http://www.oclc.org/support/documentation/worldcat/records/guidelines/default.htm * Proposed Policy: http://www.oclc.org/worldcat/catalog/policy/recordusepolicy.pdf The OCLC Review Board is an independent committee convened by the OCLC Board of Trustees and the OCLC Members Council. If you wish to find out more about the Review Board, please visit these links: * OCLC Review Board: http://www.oclc.org/worldcat/catalog/policy/board/default.htm * Press release - formation of Review Board: http://www.oclc.org/us/en/news/releases/20092.htm * Press release - Review Board members: http://www.oclc.org/us/en/news/releases/200910.htm The survey is available online at the following site, where you will find specific instructions on completing the survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=c0hILWPafv97EDbNiRXXjg_3d_3d I invite you to complete this survey yourself or forward it to a colleague with an interest in this issue. Your opinions and comments are vital to our evaluation, regardless of your current level of usage of OCLC services or your relationship to OCLC. Please complete the questionnaire online by April 8, 2009. To protect the confidentiality of your responses, all data will be collected, tabulated, and analyzed by Linray, an independent market research consultant. We will receive data in aggregate form only; your answers will not be associated in any way with you or your organization. If you have questions about the content of the survey, please send an e-mail to reviewboard at oclc.org. As an alternative to the survey, we welcome your feedback by sending an e-mail to reviewboard at oclc.org or posting comments at http://community.oclc.org/reviewboard/. Please feel free to provide input in the language of your choice. Thank you for your participation in this survey. Sincerely, Jennifer A. Younger Chair, OCLC Review Board of Shared Data Creation and Stewardship Director, Hesburgh Libraries University of Notre Dame *********************************************************************** AUTOCAT quoting guide: http://www.cwu.edu/~dcc/Autocat/copyright.html E-mail AUTOCAT listowners: autocat-request at listserv.syr.edu Search AUTOCAT archives: http://listserv.syr.edu/archives/autocat.html By posting messages to AUTOCAT, the author does not cede copyright *********************************************************************** -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 1 10:36:06 2009 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 10:36:06 +0000 Subject: Ethical Dilemmas of Krishna Message-ID: <161227086091.23782.174748915406706053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 417 Lines: 28 Friends: Both the Mahabharata and the Shrimad Bhagvata Purana present situations in which Krishna is seen transgressing ethical norms. In the Bhagavata this is resolved through the concept of Yogamaya. What is the resolution of these problems in the Mahabharata? Is the Karma Yoga of the Gita a possible resolution? Thanks. Harsha Harsha V. Dehejia Carleton University, Ottawa, ON., Canada. From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Fri May 1 20:19:06 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 13:19:06 -0700 Subject: Ethical Dilemmas of Krishna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086100.23782.6601623772592837502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 912 Lines: 48 Harsha, There is this article: Matilal, Bimal Krishna. 1991. Krsna: In Defence of a Devious Divinity. In Essays on the Mahabharata, ed. Arvind Sharma, 401-18. Leiden: E. J. Brill. And this this collection of articles: Matilal, Bimal Krishna, ed. 1989. Moral Dilemmas in the Mahabharata. Shimla and Delhi: Indian Institute of Advanced Study, in association with Motilal Banarsidass. Regards, Luis _____ on 5/1/2009 3:36 AM Harsha Dehejia wrote: > Friends: > > > > Both the Mahabharata and the Shrimad Bhagvata Purana present situations in which Krishna is seen transgressing ethical norms. > > > In the Bhagavata this is resolved through the concept of Yogamaya. > > > What is the resolution of these problems in the Mahabharata? Is the Karma Yoga of the Gita a possible resolution? > > > Thanks. > > > > Harsha > > Harsha V. Dehejia > > Carleton University, Ottawa, ON., Canada. > > From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Fri May 1 13:33:00 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 15:33:00 +0200 Subject: sarve bhavantu sukhina=?UTF-8?Q?=E1=B8=A5?= Message-ID: <161227086094.23782.7734127936201652391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 508 Lines: 20 ... sarve santu nir?maya? I've been asked where this famous sentence comes from, historically, and I don't know. The Mah?mantr?nus?ri?? (thanks to Peter Skilling and GRETIL) has it: C.3.16. sarve satv?? sarve pr???? sarve bh?t?? ca keval?? / sarve vai sukhina? santu sarve santu nir?may?? / sarve bhadr??i pa?yantu m? ka?cit p?pam ?gamat // But people usually ascribe it to one of the upani?ads, where as far as I can see it doesn't appear. Is it known from other, older sources? Thanks, Dominik From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Fri May 1 13:35:47 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 15:35:47 +0200 Subject: Carbon dating of palm-leaf MSS? In-Reply-To: <4896FEF35D359441AB2A680756941DDD07B60B23@MAIL2.mcs.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227086096.23782.3219100220768836953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2410 Lines: 83 Many thanks! I've now forgotten who originated the query, but I'll search and forward your email. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Fri, 1 May 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > Dominik, > > Sorry for the delay, but mail takes a long time to get to Australia! > > Your friend may be interested in the following article by myself, Richard Salomon, and two scientists: > > Allon, Mark, R. Salomon, G. Jacobsen, and U. Zoppi. 2006. ?Radiocarbon Dating of Kharo??h? Fragments from the Sch?yen and Senior Manuscript Collections.? In Jens Braarvig, ed., Buddhist Manuscripts III. Manuscripts in the Sch?yen Collection 4, pp. 279?91. Oslo: Hermes Publishing. > > If he wants a pdf, I'll send it to you. > > Regards > Mark Allon > University of Sydney > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Dominik Wujastyk > Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 7:38 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Carbon dating of palm-leaf MSS? > > This message is forwarded on behalf of R. Ganapathy, who is not a member > of this forum. Please be sure to CC any replies to him, at > > > Dominik Wujastyk > INDOLOGY committee > > ------------ Forwarded Message ----------- > On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, RG wrote: > >> Dear Dr Wujastyk: >> >> I got your address through a friend of mine in London. >> >> I was a Senior Res Associate at the Enrico Fermi Inst of the Univ of Chicago >> many years ago. >> >> I have a palm leaf manuscript, 868 pages, with grantha script describing >> Valmiki's Ramayan. I got this from an antique shop in Cochin five years ago. >> >> Because grantha was used in South India to transmit Sanskrit language, I >> decided to date this using carbon-14 method using accelerator mass >> spectrometry. I just got the preliminary age few days ago, about 350 years >> old from today. >> >> I searched the google to find other carbon 14 dates on the use of grantha >> script. I did not get any useful information. Since I am new to this field, >> I am looking for help in locating journals which publish C-14 dates on >> Indian palm leaf manuscripts. What kind of range do we have on these >> dates?I would deeply appreciate if you can help me on this. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> R.Ganapathy >> >> Bethlehem, PA, USA >> >> > From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Fri May 1 14:33:33 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 16:33:33 +0200 Subject: SARIT News Message-ID: <161227086098.23782.18422200490430582251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1388 Lines: 43 Dear colleagues, Richard Mahoney and I have been pushing the SARIT project http://sarit.indology.info forward with energy. 1. The British Association of South Asian Studies has awarded a grant to promote the SARIT project. The amount we were awarded is lower than we requested, but is still enough to enable progress. I would like to thank all those who provided letters of support for our application. I am certain that these votes of confidence made a major difference. 2. We have recently been in active discussions about possible collaboration with institutions in India. We have also been talking with members of the TEI consortium about setting up training courses in India for inputters. If this initiative succeeds, and there are still many hurdles, it might be possible for SARIT to grow rapidly. Of course, the bigger the database of searchable Indic texts, the more useful it will be to all of us. 3. Richard has now developed a software pipeline so that all texts added to the SARIT library will not only be searchable, indexable, etc., but will also be downloadable in toto, as HTML (as with GRETIL) or as PDF. See the new "Downloads" menu entry in the Navigation menu on the right side of the main screen. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com From mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU Fri May 1 08:50:43 2009 From: mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Fri, 01 May 09 18:50:43 +1000 Subject: Carbon dating of palm-leaf MSS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086089.23782.17859590535393889660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2049 Lines: 64 Dominik, Sorry for the delay, but mail takes a long time to get to Australia! Your friend may be interested in the following article by myself, Richard Salomon, and two scientists: Allon, Mark, R. Salomon, G. Jacobsen, and U. Zoppi. 2006. ?Radiocarbon Dating of Kharo??h? Fragments from the Sch?yen and Senior Manuscript Collections.? In Jens Braarvig, ed., Buddhist Manuscripts III. Manuscripts in the Sch?yen Collection 4, pp. 279?91. Oslo: Hermes Publishing. If he wants a pdf, I'll send it to you. Regards Mark Allon University of Sydney -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Dominik Wujastyk Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 7:38 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Carbon dating of palm-leaf MSS? This message is forwarded on behalf of R. Ganapathy, who is not a member of this forum. Please be sure to CC any replies to him, at Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY committee ------------ Forwarded Message ----------- On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, RG wrote: > Dear Dr Wujastyk: > > I got your address through a friend of mine in London. > > I was a Senior Res Associate at the Enrico Fermi Inst of the Univ of Chicago > many years ago. > > I have a palm leaf manuscript, 868 pages, with grantha script describing > Valmiki's Ramayan. I got this from an antique shop in Cochin five years ago. > > Because grantha was used in South India to transmit Sanskrit language, I > decided to date this using carbon-14 method using accelerator mass > spectrometry. I just got the preliminary age few days ago, about 350 years > old from today. > > I searched the google to find other carbon 14 dates on the use of grantha > script. I did not get any useful information. Since I am new to this field, > I am looking for help in locating journals which publish C-14 dates on > Indian palm leaf manuscripts. What kind of range do we have on these > dates?I would deeply appreciate if you can help me on this. > > Thank you. > > Sincerely, > > R.Ganapathy > > Bethlehem, PA, USA > > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat May 2 09:58:48 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 02 May 09 15:28:48 +0530 Subject: SARIT News Message-ID: <161227086102.23782.5116744689981290951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1895 Lines: 50 Fine! Could?the Shriimuulaa commentary, T.G.Shastri, K.A. be uploaded? It is for sometime out of print with not much assurance from MLBD of a quick reprint. DB --- On Fri, 1/5/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: SARIT News To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 1 May, 2009, 8:03 PM Dear colleagues, Richard Mahoney and I have been pushing the SARIT project ??? http://sarit.indology.info forward with energy. 1. The British Association of South Asian Studies has awarded a grant to promote the SARIT project.? The amount we were awarded is lower than we requested, but is still enough to enable progress. I would like to thank all those who provided letters of support for our application.? I am certain that these votes of confidence made a major difference. 2. We have recently been in active discussions about possible collaboration with institutions in India.? We have also been talking with members of the TEI consortium about setting up training courses in India for inputters. If this initiative succeeds, and there are still many hurdles, it might be possible for SARIT to grow rapidly.? Of course, the bigger the database of searchable Indic texts, the more useful it will be to all of us. 3. Richard has now developed a software pipeline so that all texts added to the SARIT library will not only be searchable, indexable, etc., but will also be downloadable in toto, as HTML (as with GRETIL) or as PDF.? See the new "Downloads" menu entry in the Navigation menu on the right side of the main screen. Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon May 4 00:05:03 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 03 May 09 17:05:03 -0700 Subject: The Indus "script"? Message-ID: <161227086105.23782.3507596400780327532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 11008 Lines: 204 Simon Brodbeck writes, on the "Indus script" question: > I hope it will not be out of place here to say how little I am > looking forward to the apparently forthcoming treatment of this > issue in this forum. > > I have no doubt that if any present parties have anything > substantial to add to the debate, we shall see it in print before > long. In the meantime, I wonder how much is to be gained by > repeating, in more or less rhetorical variants, contributions that > have already been made in print. > Sorry for the delayed response, and just hit "delete", Simon. :^) I'll try to make this my only post, unless someone responds to the specific evidence I discuss below. I agree that this isn't the ideal forum for this discussion. That would require the contributions of archaeologists, comparative historians, and computational linguists, few of whom are on the List. There is nothing rhetorical in what I say below, nor am I simply repeating points already made in print. Two major points: 1. My last post on this List was actually nine years ago, and the only reason I posted last week was to respond to a pop news story sent to the List by an Indologist on the paper by Rao et al. -- actually the worst of the stories published so far, entitled "Artificial Intelligence Cracks 4000-Year-Old Mystery." When something like that is posted without comment on a research List, supposedly overturning the work of you and your colleagues, most people would feel constrained to respond. :^) Now that the statistical flaws in Rao et al. have been thoroughly discussed by well-known computational linguists including Mark Liberman and Fernando Pereira (neither of whom I know), there isn't much to add beyond what they say here: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1374 (updated since it first appeared) http://earningmyturns.blogspot.com/2009/04/falling-for-magic- formula.html The bottom line is a critical point that is rarely mentioned anywhere, let alone on the Indology List: no single statistical measure can distinguish speech-encoding systems (writing) from symbol systems that encode semantic data of other types. (See here especially Pereira's comments in the second link above.) The only reason that the data of Rao et al. look superficially convincing to non-specialists is because of the huge gap they show in their data (see their chart in the first link above) between clustered groups of Indus signs and a carefully selected group of natural languages and two wholly *invented* data sets of supposedly "representative examples" of nonlinguistic symbols -- neither of which are anything like anything found in the ancient world. Rao et al. calculated *no* values at all for ancient nonlinguistic symbol systems beyond those from the Indus -- despite what they suggest in the main body of their paper. In other words, they slipped one by the Science reviewers. If you don't think this paper will affect future work in Indus studies by people, including researchers, many of whom get their views of research outside their specialized fields from outside reports and newspapers, think again. The question of whether Indus symbols did or not encode writing may seem a trivial Glasperlenspiel to those whose work doesn't involve studies of the impact of literacy on premodern civilizations. It is anything but an empty scholastic game: writing is an enabling technology that when it existed fundamentally transformed ancient civilizations. And surrounding the Indus -- among the BMAC, in the cities of the Gulf, and in the urban centers of the SE Iranian plateau (e.g., at Jiroft, whose supposed "writing" has been shown in the past year to consist of modern forgeries) -- we find no writing either. The significance of this for Indus studies and ancient studies in general will be discussed at length in Kyoto at the end of this month, by me and Michael Witzel, by perhaps the leading specialist on Iranian and Gulf archaeology, Dan Potts, and others. Nothing old or rhetorical about that discussion either. 2. I also feel constrained to point out that the summaries Parpola gave on this List in the wake of the discussion of Rao et al. -- which didn't directly pertain to our views of Parpola's work -- have little to do with our real views. E.g., he summarizes and disposes of what he claims as one of the arguments of Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel this way: > All literary civilizations produced longer texts but there are none > from the Indus Valley ? hence the Indus script is no writing > system: Farmer and his colleagues reject the much repeated early > assumption that longer texts may have been written on birch bark, > palm leaves, parchment, wood, or cotton cloth, any of which would > have perished in the course of ages as suggested by Sir John > Marshall in 1931 (I, 39). Farmer and his colleagues are ready to > believe the Indus script thesis only if an Indus text at least 50 > signs long is found. > > *But* even though Farmer and his colleagues speak as if our present > corpus of texts was everything there ever existed, this is not the > case. More than 2100 Indus texts come from Mohenjo-daro alone, and > yet less than one tenth of that single city has been excavated. > Farmer and his colleagues do not know what has existed and what may > be found in the remaining parts of the city, even if it is likely > that only imperishable material of the kinds already available > continue to be found. The Rongo-Rongo tablets of Easter Island are > much longer than 50 signs. But does this make it certain that they > represent writing in the strict sense? > Nothing here represents any of our nuanced views. We certainly never speak "as if our present corpus of texts was everything there ever existed." Nor would we claim that every symbol string in the world over 50 signs long is "writing." Richard Sproat is in fact an expert on Rongo-Rongo, and we could point of course to manuscript length mnemonic or "prompt" texts among the Mixtecs, Aztecs, or (in Asia) the Naxi, of which I have indeed talked about at length in lectures attended by Parpola in 2005 (Kyoto) and 2007 (at Stanford). But Indus symbols don't belong to this subtype of nonlinguistic symbols, as we argue -- nonlinguistic like linguistic signs come in a surprisingly wide variety of 'flavors'. We in fact say something like that on the first page of our 2004 paper. In any event, our arguments about "text" length are considerably more sophisticated than the way they are summarized above. The "lost manuscript" thesis, which was accepted with little discussion from Hunter 1929 to Marshall 1931 to Parpola 1994, was introduced to explain away the obvious lack of anything remotely looking like a text in the Indus Valley. The reason the argument fails was something we first noted: no premodern civilization is known that wrote long texts on perishable materials but failed to leave *obvious* and *abundant* examples of such texts behind on durable materials as well. We're not talking here about obscurely buried archives. If in a Gedankenexperiment you took away all perishable materials of any type from China, India, Central Asia, Iran, Anatolia, Greece, Italy, Mesopotamia, Mesoamerica, etc., it wouldn't change one bit our understanding of which civilizations in those regions were literate. This would be due to the massive numbers of long texts, often numbering in the hundreds of thousands, that the literate civilizations of these regions left behind in obvious places. In 2009, five years after our paper was published, we no longer find speculation about the literary "activities of the Harappan scribes and scholars", which Parpola 1994 compared "on the analogy of 'empires' comparable to the Indus Civilization" to Aztec "writing" (Parpola 1994: 54). (Actually, Aztec texts aren't really "writing" at all in the technical sense, as noted above.) In his recent post, Asko tells us instead that the "type of texts I expect to be lost is exemplified by the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, i.e. economic accounts, not literature, which was probably handed down orally...." This doesn't make speculation about lost Indus archives more credible, due to the massive scale of the excavations conducted since the 1920s. Compare here -- we haven't written about this anywhere -- with finds of Linear B, of which we have many thousands of long texts. The first Minoan site ever excavated, at Knossos, quickly turned up no less than 4300 Linear B texts (plus of course seals, etc.). Nearly *all* of these texts are far longer than what is by far the longest "Indus text" on a single surface, consisting of 17 high- frequency but non-repeating signs on a square about 1 inch square. After the find of 4300 long Linear B texts at Knossos, another 1000 or so showed up at Pylos. Then 300 or so from Thebes. And now we have perhaps another 300 so far from other sites. Others turn up every year. These are not obscure finds. Archaeological science rarely proves anything outright, but eventually hypotheses based on speculation concerning *possible* finds introduced to "save" a thesis, but that never materialize are eventually quietly abandoned -- especially when that speculation conflicts with what is commonly known from cross-cultural archaeological studies from many other parts of the world. (India may be "different", as Indologists often say, but not *that* different.) The Indus left thousands of short symbol strings behind on many types of materials, not just "seals" -- pots, potsherds, metal plates, weapons, molded terracotta tablets, incised shells, cones and rods, etc. -- the same kinds of materials on which other civilizations (including those that routinely wrote on perishable materials) left thousands of *long* texts behind. This is especially true of potsherds, which were among the most prevalent writing materials in the ancient world, since they were far cheaper than rather expensive perishable materials (including cloth). You have to have an explanation for that, and of course for all the missing texts, and without one the traditional "Indus script" thesis quite frankly isn't credible. That's it for me, as noted above, unless someone wants to discuss the evidence discussed here. All this will be picked up in Kyoto later this month, so I'm fine in leaving it here. The big issue to the minds of me and my colleagues -- Michael Witzel, Richard Sproat, the archaeologist Dorian Fuller, others -- isn't the now standard question that we introduced five years ago ("Is it a writing system or not?"), but about all the exciting new research avenues that are opened up as soon as you recognize the abundant evidence that says it wasn't. Best wishes, S. Farmer From peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU Mon May 4 06:00:46 2009 From: peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Sun, 03 May 09 23:00:46 -0700 Subject: Three 'sanskrit' slokas? Message-ID: <161227086107.23782.12574010489654482647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 711 Lines: 18 Dear colleagues, I am working on a 19th century Jain manuscript in Hindi which contains three 'Sanskrit' slokas. Well sort of, they are as follows, any guesses on where they might be from or might mean? You are welcome to reply off list to me as well on clspgf at nus.edu.sg?if you can suggest any leads on them. thanks, Peter ? AtmvatsarvabhUtAnI par drabANI toSTvata para strImAtRataMyageyaM jo jAnAti paNDitaH ? eva AtmacidrayaH sarIrIkarmAjAgataH dhyAnAgani karmadagaddhAni sajA tiparamaMpadaH. 1 ? prANa raSaNaM tulaMdharmanhI pApazcaprANaghAtakaH kSamAtulaMtapasyai nabhUtobhaviSyatI ? Enjoy a better web experience. Upgrade to the new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7. Get it now. From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon May 4 13:10:06 2009 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 08:10:06 -0500 Subject: Translations into Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20090504140949.63681t045c484bul@webmail.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227086112.23782.157572734931447986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1360 Lines: 33 The appended message is forwarded to the list by request. --Gary Tubb. Dear Editor, I have read with interest the postings on ?Translations into Sanskrit ? and would appreciate if you would post the following under that heading. ?In the 1950s and 1960s the Brahman Sabha of Girgaum, Mumbai undertook to present every year a play in Sanskrit in which well known local actors participated. These plays were well attended by the members of the Sabha and their friends. I think around 10 plays were presented. Of these at least 3 were translations of well known Marathi plays written in late 1800s and early 1900s. They were Sangita Samshyakallolam by R.R. Deshpande and Sangita Shaaradaa by Limaye (based on the Marathi plays of the same name written by Govind Ballal Deval), Sangita Saubhadram by S. B. Velankar (based on the Marathi play of the same name written by Balwant ?Annasaheb? Kirloskar). The original Marathi songs of these plays were easily recognisable in their Sanskrit translations and could be sung in the same raga. Just to add, two more plays Bhartuhariyam (written by V. D. Gangal IAS) and Kalidascharitam (written by S.B. Velankar) were also presented. I have copies of all these plays except Sangita Sharada?. Thank you Dilip Chirmuley From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon May 4 15:16:41 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 08:16:41 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <20090504140949.63681t045c484bul@webmail.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227086114.23782.11206385623081309377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 6282 Lines: 121 Asko Parpola writes, > If the Mycenaeans had written their administrative documents on > perishable material instead of clay, and all those thousands of > texts of this type would have been lost (like all texts written on > perishable material in Ashoka's empire have been lost, and > evidently the Harappan administrative documents -- for it is > difficult to imagine those large cities being managed without any > accounting), would the remaining other types of Linear B texts be > better evidence for Mycenaean literacy than what survives from the > Indus Civilization? > With best regards, "Ashok" Dear "Ashok" -- and I do like the label, :^) This newest speculation claim doesn't answer the evidence I raised in my post, Asko. First of all, we know for a fact that extensive urban civilizations both in Eurasia and in the New World did very well without writing -- both before the invention of writing and after. The Mesopotamian and Minoan/Mycenaean court finance systems in fact were apparently rather anomalous in premodern urban states. For extensive discussion -- and much more can be said -- see M. Fragipane et al. (12 named co-authors), _Arslantepe Cretulae: An Early Centralized Administrative System Before Writing_ (Rome, 2007, 528 pp.), where this issue is developed at considerable length. Also, not long after the Harvard Roundtable meeting where we first met, in 2002, when Michael Witzel and I were first introducing our non-script model, Carl Lamberg-Karlovsky (who was also there) published a little paper, "To write or not to write," in _Culture through Objects_, ed. Timothy Potts et al., Cambridge U. Press, 2003, that discusses at some length non-literate civilizations existing side-by-side with literate ones in premodern Eurasia. (I'll vastly expand on this theme at our upcoming Kyoto meeting, in a talk Michael, Richard Sproat, and I (with me presenting) will give, entitled "The Collapse of the Indus Script Thesis, Five Years Later: Massive Non-Literate Urban Civilizations of Ancient Eurasia". I believe that the archaeologist Dan Potts, who of course knows Gulf and Iranian archaeology better than anyone (see, e.g., _The Archaeology of Elam_, 1999; and his many other studies), may talk about similar topics.) Finally, your invocation of Ashoka below doesn't help your argument. All real literate civilizations, like Ashoka's, whenever they wrote on perishable materials, also, and quite obviously, left extensive texts behind on durable materials. There is no exception to that rule that we know of in world civilizations. That's the key part of this one (out of many) arguments we first collected in "Collapse of the Indus Script Thesis" in 2004: http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf Of course one could claim that the Indus are the one exception! But then the argument gets even more circular..... I guess I should add at the end that I have often argued (in talks you've attended too) that one special class of Indus inscribed objects -- the rather crudely made so-called miniature tablets from Harappa proper -- had economic uses of a type, as what I've tentatively characterized (e.g., at the Harvard Roundtable in 2004; also Kyoto 2005) as "vouchers" of a sort or as part of a "sacrificial tithe system" in communal seasonal festivals. (None of this in print yet.) But right or wrong -- I think others have made similar suggestions -- that's independent of the "writing" issue. Looking forward to seeing you in Kyoto in a few weeks. We have a new proposal we plan to make in Kyoto for how all of us can collaborate in a new, well financed, way to tap the data in the inscriptions in innovative ways. We're hoping it will interest you. Best wishes, Steve > Quoting "Steve Farmer" : > >> Asko tells us instead that the "type of texts I expect to be lost >> is exemplified by the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, i.e. economic >> accounts, not literature, which was probably handed down orally...." >> >> This doesn't make speculation about lost Indus archives more >> credible, due to the massive scale of the excavations conducted >> since the 1920s. Compare here -- we haven't written about this >> anywhere -- with finds of Linear B, of which we have many >> thousands of long texts. The first Minoan site ever excavated, at >> Knossos, quickly turned up no less than 4300 Linear B texts (plus >> of course seals, etc.). Nearly *all* of these texts are far longer >> than what is by far the longest "Indus text" on a single surface, >> consisting of 17 high-frequency but non-repeating signs on a >> square about 1 inch square. >> >> After the find of 4300 long Linear B texts at Knossos, another >> 1000 or so showed up at Pylos. Then 300 or so from Thebes. And now >> we have perhaps another 300 so far from other sites. Others turn >> up every year. These are not obscure finds. >> >> Archaeological science rarely proves anything outright, but >> eventually hypotheses based on speculation concerning *possible* >> finds introduced to "save" a thesis, but that never materialize >> are eventually quietly abandoned -- especially when that >> speculation conflicts with what is commonly known from cross- >> cultural archaeological studies from many other parts of the >> world. (India may be "different", as Indologists often say, but >> not *that* different.) >> >> The Indus left thousands of short symbol strings behind on many >> types of materials, not just "seals" -- pots, potsherds, metal >> plates, weapons, molded terracotta tablets, incised shells, cones >> and rods, etc. -- the same kinds of materials on which other >> civilizations (including those that routinely wrote on perishable >> materials) left thousands of *long* texts behind. This is >> especially true of potsherds, which were among the most prevalent >> writing materials in the ancient world, since they were far >> cheaper than rather expensive perishable materials (including >> cloth). You have to have an explanation for that, and of course >> for all the missing texts, and without one the traditional "Indus >> script" thesis quite frankly isn't credible. >> From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Mon May 4 16:53:51 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 09:53:51 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086116.23782.16061526422179834429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 7572 Lines: 142 It seems to me there is a fallacy in Steve Farmer's contention that no civilization with writing lacks longer texts. The fact is, if any civilization committed all its writing to perishable materials, we would not know they had writing. There may be 20 or 30 ancient civilizations that had writing about which we have no clue. Thus one cannot argue that if the IV civ. had writing we would necessarily have longer texts. All we know is that they left their symbols on specialized seals and on a couple of artifacts (the famous sign). Carving something on stone or making a seal is a lot more difficult than writing on a palmyra leaf -- there is no reason whatsoever why they couldn't have written longer things (like accounts ) on bark or some other material that is perishable and easier to write on. We have no long examples of writing in Tamil from Sangam times, yet we know that they had writing and wrote longer documents on palmyra leaves. Of course, Farmer et al. have other arguments that need to be considered. George Hart On May 4, 2009, at 8:16 AM, Steve Farmer wrote: > Asko Parpola writes, > >> If the Mycenaeans had written their administrative documents on >> perishable material instead of clay, and all those thousands of >> texts of this type would have been lost (like all texts written on >> perishable material in Ashoka's empire have been lost, and >> evidently the Harappan administrative documents -- for it is >> difficult to imagine those large cities being managed without any >> accounting), would the remaining other types of Linear B texts be >> better evidence for Mycenaean literacy than what survives from the >> Indus Civilization? > >> With best regards, "Ashok" > > Dear "Ashok" -- and I do like the label, :^) > > This newest speculation claim doesn't answer the evidence I raised > in my post, Asko. First of all, we know for a fact that extensive > urban civilizations both in Eurasia and in the New World did very > well without writing -- both before the invention of writing and > after. The Mesopotamian and Minoan/Mycenaean court finance systems > in fact were apparently rather anomalous in premodern urban states. > For extensive discussion -- and much more can be said -- see M. > Fragipane et al. (12 named co-authors), _Arslantepe Cretulae: An > Early Centralized Administrative System Before Writing_ (Rome, 2007, > 528 pp.), where this issue is developed at considerable length. > > Also, not long after the Harvard Roundtable meeting where we first > met, in 2002, when Michael Witzel and I were first introducing our > non-script model, Carl Lamberg-Karlovsky (who was also there) > published a little paper, "To write or not to write," in _Culture > through Objects_, ed. Timothy Potts et al., Cambridge U. Press, > 2003, that discusses at some length non-literate civilizations > existing side-by-side with literate ones in premodern Eurasia. (I'll > vastly expand on this theme at our upcoming Kyoto meeting, in a talk > Michael, Richard Sproat, and I (with me presenting) will give, > entitled "The Collapse of the Indus Script Thesis, Five Years Later: > Massive Non-Literate Urban Civilizations of Ancient Eurasia". I > believe that the archaeologist Dan Potts, who of course knows Gulf > and Iranian archaeology better than anyone (see, e.g., _The > Archaeology of Elam_, 1999; and his many other studies), may talk > about similar topics.) > > Finally, your invocation of Ashoka below doesn't help your argument. > All real literate civilizations, like Ashoka's, whenever they wrote > on perishable materials, also, and quite obviously, left extensive > texts behind on durable materials. There is no exception to that > rule that we know of in world civilizations. That's the key part of > this one (out of many) arguments we first collected in "Collapse of > the Indus Script Thesis" in 2004: > > http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf > > Of course one could claim that the Indus are the one exception! But > then the argument gets even more circular..... > > I guess I should add at the end that I have often argued (in talks > you've attended too) that one special class of Indus inscribed > objects -- the rather crudely made so-called miniature tablets from > Harappa proper -- had economic uses of a type, as what I've > tentatively characterized (e.g., at the Harvard Roundtable in 2004; > also Kyoto 2005) as "vouchers" of a sort or as part of a > "sacrificial tithe system" in communal seasonal festivals. (None of > this in print yet.) But right or wrong -- I think others have made > similar suggestions -- that's independent of the "writing" issue. > > Looking forward to seeing you in Kyoto in a few weeks. We have a new > proposal we plan to make in Kyoto for how all of us can collaborate > in a new, well financed, way to tap the data in the inscriptions in > innovative ways. We're hoping it will interest you. > > Best wishes, > Steve > >> Quoting "Steve Farmer" : >> >>> Asko tells us instead that the "type of texts I expect to be lost >>> is exemplified by the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, i.e. economic >>> accounts, not literature, which was probably handed down orally...." >>> >>> This doesn't make speculation about lost Indus archives more >>> credible, due to the massive scale of the excavations conducted >>> since the 1920s. Compare here -- we haven't written about this >>> anywhere -- with finds of Linear B, of which we have many >>> thousands of long texts. The first Minoan site ever excavated, at >>> Knossos, quickly turned up no less than 4300 Linear B texts (plus >>> of course seals, etc.). Nearly *all* of these texts are far longer >>> than what is by far the longest "Indus text" on a single surface, >>> consisting of 17 high-frequency but non-repeating signs on a >>> square about 1 inch square. >>> >>> After the find of 4300 long Linear B texts at Knossos, another >>> 1000 or so showed up at Pylos. Then 300 or so from Thebes. And now >>> we have perhaps another 300 so far from other sites. Others turn >>> up every year. These are not obscure finds. >>> >>> Archaeological science rarely proves anything outright, but >>> eventually hypotheses based on speculation concerning *possible* >>> finds introduced to "save" a thesis, but that never materialize >>> are eventually quietly abandoned -- especially when that >>> speculation conflicts with what is commonly known from cross- >>> cultural archaeological studies from many other parts of the >>> world. (India may be "different", as Indologists often say, but >>> not *that* different.) >>> >>> The Indus left thousands of short symbol strings behind on many >>> types of materials, not just "seals" -- pots, potsherds, metal >>> plates, weapons, molded terracotta tablets, incised shells, cones >>> and rods, etc. -- the same kinds of materials on which other >>> civilizations (including those that routinely wrote on perishable >>> materials) left thousands of *long* texts behind. This is >>> especially true of potsherds, which were among the most prevalent >>> writing materials in the ancient world, since they were far >>> cheaper than rather expensive perishable materials (including >>> cloth). You have to have an explanation for that, and of course >>> for all the missing texts, and without one the traditional "Indus >>> script" thesis quite frankly isn't credible. >>> From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon May 4 19:23:41 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 12:23:41 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <1D712055-859C-4E63-BF6C-714F6C25BD26@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086119.23782.17500482693538630065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 7664 Lines: 151 George Hart writes: > It seems to me there is a fallacy in Steve Farmer's contention that > no civilization with writing lacks longer texts. The fact is, if > any civilization committed all its writing to perishable materials, > we would not know they had writing. There may be 20 or 30 ancient > civilizations that had writing about which we have no clue. Thus > one cannot argue that if the IV civ. had writing we would > necessarily have longer texts. All we know is that they left their > symbols on specialized seals and on a couple of artifacts (the > famous sign). Carving something on stone or making a seal is a lot > more difficult than writing on a palmyra leaf -- there is no reason > whatsoever why they couldn't have written longer things (like > accounts ) on bark or some other material that is perishable and > easier to write on. We have no long examples of writing in Tamil > from Sangam times, yet we know that they had writing and wrote > longer documents on palmyra leaves. Of course, Farmer et al. have > other arguments that need to be considered. Dear George: Ignoring all the purely speculative "what if's" in your post, just a reminder, although I hate to repeat myself: what we in fact argue is that no known civilization that wrote long texts on perishable materials didn't also leave texts of significant length behind on durable materials. On your claims about the earliest Tamil inscriptions: I know this is your field, but your claims here are demonstrably wrong. See the photo and discussion below. The fact is, the Indus left *thousands* of short symbol strings behind on all sorts of durable objects -- not just on "a couple of artifacts." Huge numbers of symbol strings on potsherds haven't even been cataloged, as you'd find if you read the excavation reports. None of them is of any length, unlike the situation in all known literate civilizations in antiquity. Moreover, if we believe the dates given by the Harappa Archaeological Research Project (HARP), run by Richard Meadow and Mark Kenoyer, those finds extend over a millennium. As already noted, these durable materials include *exactly* the same kinds of materials that truly literate civilizations routinely wrote long texts on. There are issues of pausibility at stake here, leaving aside totally untestable speculation that "There may be 20 or 30 ancient civilizations that had writing about which we have no clue." Well, there usually are clues -- and also clues when you're not looking at "writing" but other types of ancient symbols, of which there are in fact many "flavors," as we've discovered over the past decade. Quickly: Why everyplace else in the world where we KNOW there was literacy would we find literate peoples leaving long texts behind on potsherds, pottery, metal plates, vessels, weapons, etc.? -- while in the Indus civilization *only* they *exclusively* left symbols behind on the same types of objects that were *never* more than a handful of symbols long? I guess you could in principle argue that there was a taboo on leaving long texts behind but not thousands of short ones. :^) Well, one Indus researcher whose whole career has revolved around "Indus writing" has actually said something, obviously rather in desperation. .... You write that "carving something on stone or making a seal is a lot more difficult than writing on a palmyra leaf." This is in fact not true, George. As you'll recall when you think about it, preparation of palm leaves for writing is a quite elaborate and time-consuming practice. It is also expensive (as is writing on materials like cloth, parchment, silk, papyrus; wood also takes special preparation). See for one review, Anupam Sah, "Palm leaf manuscripts of the world: material, technology, and conservation," Reviews in Conservation (2002): 15-24. We take perishable writing materials for granted. The ancients could not. Scratching on a potsherd, on the other hand, is quick, extremely cost efficient, and very useful, especially for accounting records. (Think here of the hundreds of thousands of ostraca with accounting records we have from the ancient Mediterranean.) We have many hundreds of thousands of examples of potsherd fragments with real writing and quite long texts from all over the ancient world -- including India, but of course not from Indus times. In any event, take a look at our already detailed discussion of this issue on around p. 23 in "Collapse" (), and esp. Fig. 1. One final and obviously critical point -- since it involves your own field. You write: > We have no long examples of writing in Tamil from Sangam times, yet > we know that they had writing and wrote longer documents on palmyra > leaves. I hate to point out that claims from someone who is a specialist (as you are) in this field are wrong, but.... :^) If you in fact look at the photos of the very earliest Tamil inscriptions, in Iravatham Mahadevan, _Early Tamil Epigraphy: From the Earliest Times to the Sixth Century A.D._, Harvard, 2003 (in the series edited by Michael), you'll see unambiguous evidence that the inscriptions, scarce as they are, were *regularly* longer than *any* of the thousands of Indus "inscriptions" from many centuries of Indus civilization. Ouch! I always thought that was amusing, and when Mahadevan published his wonderful 2003 book I pointed out the irony to him when we both gave talks at a big Indus conference. In fact, the very FIRST inscription he gives in his book (pp. 314-15), which he dates to the 2nd century BCE, is in fact well over three times longer than any Indus inscription gathered over the past 135 years from large numbers of sites dating from the late 4th millennium to early 2nd millennium! Take a look at this scan I just made of Mahadevan's transcription of that piece: http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/early.tamil.inscription.jpg If anyone came up with one such real (not fake) Indus inscription, Michael, Richard, and I would have to fork over $10,000. (It won't happen, but we'd *gleefully* turn over the $10 K -- not our money, but an anonymous donor's -- for reasons we explain in our 2004 paper.) We've carefully looked at all these counter-arguments, George -- trying to falsify our own model. That's what goes on in science, if it is real science: trying to "save" a busted model is a scholastic and not scientific exercise. Things in fact only get interesting when models get busted, so you try every way to find holes in your own arguments -- not burying those holes anyway you can. (That's what I learned from my years hanging out with theoretical high-energy physicists: I quickly learned that unfortunately that wasn't the norm in ancient studies.) But the evidence wins in the long run, and then you move on to the new interesting places that takes you. That's what we plan to do in Kyoto later this month. Hmm, why do I feel as if I'm in a tag-team wrestling match with Dravidianists? Is there a bigger story here that involves things thousands of kilometers (and years) from any Indus sites? :^) > Of course, Farmer et al. have other arguments that need to be > considered. Indeed, and those arguments are constantly being missummarized in the discussions. We are very careful in our arguments --- and we try to careful summarize the positions of those on the other side. That's a requirement for honest scientific discussion, as we see it. Best wishes, S. Farmer From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Mon May 4 20:41:33 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 13:41:33 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <99450102-F055-4DB4-89D2-176B2A7D75CC@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227086121.23782.15535502991849208893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 10030 Lines: 193 Dear Steve, Thanks for your reply. Of course, our Tamil inscriptions from Sangam times are longer than the IV writing/symbols, but they're still relatively short, which was my point, and very very few have survived. You wrote, "The reason the argument fails was something we first noted: no premodern civilization is known that wrote long texts on perishable materials but failed to leave *obvious* and *abundant* examples of such texts behind on durable materials as well." Your premise is correct, but your conclusion (that the IV civilization could not have had writing) does not follow, as we have no way of knowing of (perhaps numerous) civilizations that had writing but left no surviving record. This is not a "what if," but a purely logical problem. What's more, each of the civilizations we know about had its own peculiar and distinguishing features. Surely, it's not a stretch to imagine that the IV people wrote longer texts on perishable materials. As I said, this does not affect your other arguments. As far as "Dravidianists" are concerned -- I think there has been a natural and understandable tendency to speculate that the IV Civ might have spoken a Dravidian language. Michael Witzel takes issue with this in his extraordinarily detailed articles on substratum languages in the RV, and his arguments are impressive -- though they're not conclusive, in my opinion. I do, however, find myself tending to accept his idea that the linguistic composition of the IV and surrounding areas at the time of the RV was quite complex, and that Dravidian was only one of several families spoken there. My particular concern is to get some notion of the prehistory of South India and the influx (if there was one) of the Dravidian languages into that area. While this area is outside my expertise, my impression is that Dravidian speakers might have come to South India about 3000 BC and brought neolithic culture. I'd be interested if others have evidence in this regard. George On May 4, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Steve Farmer wrote: > George Hart writes: > >> It seems to me there is a fallacy in Steve Farmer's contention that >> no civilization with writing lacks longer texts. The fact is, if >> any civilization committed all its writing to perishable materials, >> we would not know they had writing. There may be 20 or 30 ancient >> civilizations that had writing about which we have no clue. Thus >> one cannot argue that if the IV civ. had writing we would >> necessarily have longer texts. All we know is that they left their >> symbols on specialized seals and on a couple of artifacts (the >> famous sign). Carving something on stone or making a seal is a lot >> more difficult than writing on a palmyra leaf -- there is no reason >> whatsoever why they couldn't have written longer things (like >> accounts ) on bark or some other material that is perishable and >> easier to write on. We have no long examples of writing in Tamil >> from Sangam times, yet we know that they had writing and wrote >> longer documents on palmyra leaves. Of course, Farmer et al. have >> other arguments that need to be considered. > > Dear George: > > Ignoring all the purely speculative "what if's" in your post, just a > reminder, although I hate to repeat myself: what we in fact argue is > that no known civilization that wrote long texts on perishable > materials didn't also leave texts of significant length behind on > durable materials. > > On your claims about the earliest Tamil inscriptions: I know this is > your field, but your claims here are demonstrably wrong. See the > photo and discussion below. > > The fact is, the Indus left *thousands* of short symbol strings > behind on all sorts of durable objects -- not just on "a couple of > artifacts." Huge numbers of symbol strings on potsherds haven't even > been cataloged, as you'd find if you read the excavation reports. > None of them is of any length, unlike the situation in all known > literate civilizations in antiquity. > > Moreover, if we believe the dates given by the Harappa > Archaeological Research Project (HARP), run by Richard Meadow and > Mark Kenoyer, those finds extend over a millennium. As already > noted, these durable materials include *exactly* the same kinds of > materials that truly literate civilizations routinely wrote long > texts on. > > There are issues of pausibility at stake here, leaving aside totally > untestable speculation that "There may be 20 or 30 ancient > civilizations that had writing about which we have no clue." Well, > there usually are clues -- and also clues when you're not looking at > "writing" but other types of ancient symbols, of which there are in > fact many "flavors," as we've discovered over the past decade. > > Quickly: Why everyplace else in the world where we KNOW there was > literacy would we find literate peoples leaving long texts behind on > potsherds, pottery, metal plates, vessels, weapons, etc.? -- while > in the Indus civilization *only* they *exclusively* left symbols > behind on the same types of objects that were *never* more than a > handful of symbols long? > > I guess you could in principle argue that there was a taboo on > leaving long texts behind but not thousands of short ones. :^) Well, > one Indus researcher whose whole career has revolved around "Indus > writing" has actually said something, obviously rather in > desperation. .... > > You write that "carving something on stone or making a seal is a lot > more difficult than writing on a palmyra leaf." This is in fact not > true, George. As you'll recall when you think about it, preparation > of palm leaves for writing is a quite elaborate and time-consuming > practice. It is also expensive (as is writing on materials like > cloth, parchment, silk, papyrus; wood also takes special preparation). > > See for one review, Anupam Sah, "Palm leaf manuscripts of the world: > material, technology, and conservation," Reviews in Conservation > (2002): 15-24. > > We take perishable writing materials for granted. The ancients could > not. Scratching on a potsherd, on the other hand, is quick, > extremely cost efficient, and very useful, especially for accounting > records. (Think here of the hundreds of thousands of ostraca with > accounting records we have from the ancient Mediterranean.) We have > many hundreds of thousands of examples of potsherd fragments with > real writing and quite long texts from all over the ancient world -- > including India, but of course not from Indus times. In any event, > take a look at our already detailed discussion of this issue on > around p. 23 in "Collapse" (), and > esp. Fig. 1. > > One final and obviously critical point -- since it involves your own > field. You write: > >> We have no long examples of writing in Tamil from Sangam times, yet >> we know that they had writing and wrote longer documents on palmyra >> leaves. > > I hate to point out that claims from someone who is a specialist (as > you are) in this field are wrong, but.... :^) If you in fact look at > the photos of the very earliest Tamil inscriptions, in Iravatham > Mahadevan, _Early Tamil Epigraphy: From the Earliest Times to the > Sixth Century A.D._, Harvard, 2003 (in the series edited by > Michael), you'll see unambiguous evidence that the inscriptions, > scarce as they are, were *regularly* longer than *any* of the > thousands of Indus "inscriptions" from many centuries of Indus > civilization. > > Ouch! I always thought that was amusing, and when Mahadevan > published his wonderful 2003 book I pointed out the irony to him > when we both gave talks at a big Indus conference. In fact, the very > FIRST inscription he gives in his book (pp. 314-15), which he dates > to the 2nd century BCE, is in fact well over three times longer than > any Indus inscription gathered over the past 135 years from large > numbers of sites dating from the late 4th millennium to early 2nd > millennium! Take a look at this scan I just made of Mahadevan's > transcription of that piece: > > http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/early.tamil.inscription.jpg > > If anyone came up with one such real (not fake) Indus inscription, > Michael, Richard, and I would have to fork over $10,000. (It won't > happen, but we'd *gleefully* turn over the $10 K -- not our money, > but an anonymous donor's -- for reasons we explain in our 2004 paper.) > > We've carefully looked at all these counter-arguments, George -- > trying to falsify our own model. That's what goes on in science, if > it is real science: trying to "save" a busted model is a scholastic > and not scientific exercise. Things in fact only get interesting > when models get busted, so you try every way to find holes in your > own arguments -- not burying those holes anyway you can. (That's > what I learned from my years hanging out with theoretical high- > energy physicists: I quickly learned that unfortunately that wasn't > the norm in ancient studies.) > > But the evidence wins in the long run, and then you move on to the > new interesting places that takes you. That's what we plan to do in > Kyoto later this month. > > Hmm, why do I feel as if I'm in a tag-team wrestling match with > Dravidianists? Is there a bigger story here that involves things > thousands of kilometers (and years) from any Indus sites? :^) > >> Of course, Farmer et al. have other arguments that need to be >> considered. > > Indeed, and those arguments are constantly being missummarized in > the discussions. We are very careful in our arguments --- and we try > to careful summarize the positions of those on the other side. > That's a requirement for honest scientific discussion, as we see it. > > Best wishes, > S. Farmer From asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI Mon May 4 11:09:49 2009 From: asko.parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 14:09:49 +0300 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <436F97BA-3497-40F5-971E-182D04A2F54C@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227086109.23782.9628884729951027677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3043 Lines: 64 If the Mycenaeans had written their administrative documents on perishable material instead of clay, and all those thousands of texts of this type would have been lost (like all texts written on perishable material in Ashoka's empire have been lost, and evidently the Harappan administrative documents -- for it is difficult to imagine those large cities being managed without any accounting), would the remaining other types of Linear B texts be better evidence for Mycenaean literacy than what survives from the Indus Civilization? With best regards, "Ashok" Quoting "Steve Farmer" : > Asko tells us instead that the "type of texts I expect to be lost is > exemplified by the Mycenaean Linear B tablets, i.e. economic > accounts, not literature, which was probably handed down orally...." > > This doesn't make speculation about lost Indus archives more > credible, due to the massive scale of the excavations conducted > since the 1920s. Compare here -- we haven't written about this > anywhere -- with finds of Linear B, of which we have many thousands > of long texts. The first Minoan site ever excavated, at Knossos, > quickly turned up no less than 4300 Linear B texts (plus of course > seals, etc.). Nearly *all* of these texts are far longer than what > is by far the longest "Indus text" on a single surface, consisting > of 17 high-frequency but non-repeating signs on a square about 1 > inch square. > > After the find of 4300 long Linear B texts at Knossos, another 1000 > or so showed up at Pylos. Then 300 or so from Thebes. And now we > have perhaps another 300 so far from other sites. Others turn up > every year. These are not obscure finds. > > Archaeological science rarely proves anything outright, but > eventually hypotheses based on speculation concerning *possible* > finds introduced to "save" a thesis, but that never materialize are > eventually quietly abandoned -- especially when that speculation > conflicts with what is commonly known from cross-cultural > archaeological studies from many other parts of the world. (India > may be "different", as Indologists often say, but not *that* > different.) > > The Indus left thousands of short symbol strings behind on many > types of materials, not just "seals" -- pots, potsherds, metal > plates, weapons, molded terracotta tablets, incised shells, cones > and rods, etc. -- the same kinds of materials on which other > civilizations (including those that routinely wrote on perishable > materials) left thousands of *long* texts behind. This is especially > true of potsherds, which were among the most prevalent writing > materials in the ancient world, since they were far cheaper than > rather expensive perishable materials (including cloth). You have to > have an explanation for that, and of course for all the missing > texts, and without one the traditional "Indus script" thesis quite > frankly isn't credible. > > > Best wishes, > S. Farmer > > From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon May 4 21:30:37 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 14:30:37 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <1E23F5BF-871A-4470-9335-3904243F8DA2@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086123.23782.14866415032508587802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 5032 Lines: 99 Thanks, George. Everything you say in your most recent note is speculative, as I'm sure you'd admit, so it's hard to know how to respond. Is there a logical contradiction (as opposed to a question of plausibility) in claiming that the Indus were the only ancient people who have been claimed to be literate who (1) supposedly over many centuries wrote long texts on perishable materials, all of which have disappeared; and who (2) simultaneously left thousands of short "texts" (averaging 4-5 symbols long, often less) behind -- the only supposed evidence of their putative "literacy" -- on durable materials of many different types on which all other known literate civilizations left *long* texts? It isn't logically impossible, but it is grossly improbable when you compare the situation with evidence from *every* known literate civilizatio (including later ones from India, of course). But why would anyone bother with such improbable theses unless there were other motives at work? It's certainly nothing I'd prefer to discuss, but scientific discussion does take time (see on Frank Southworth, below). You write: > As far as "Dravidianists" are concerned -- I think there has been a > natural and understandable tendency to speculate that the IV Civ > might have spoken a Dravidian language. Michael Witzel takes issue > with this in his extraordinarily detailed articles on substratum > languages in the RV, and his arguments are impressive -- though > they're not conclusive, in my opinion. I do, however, find myself > tending to accept his idea that the linguistic composition of the > IV and surrounding areas at the time of the RV was quite complex, > and that Dravidian was only one of several families spoken there. Let me hand the ball over to Michael here in my own tag-team, if possible, since I'm getting worn out in center ring. :^) (Actually, Michael may not be available for a while, but I'll see him in Kyoto in a few weeks.) On this very point: I never could figure out (as a comparativist, not a S. Asianist: Michael is the S. Asianist component of my brain) why anyone would view the Indus regions as being mono-linguistic. I think it is only because I *was* an outsider that it seemed so strange to me. Then Michael and I discussed this issue in extenso in 1999, when he published some key papers on the substratum issue. Steve Weber (the Indus archaeologist, with whom we've worked a bit, along with Dorian Fuller) and I once had a conversation about this I'll never forget. Steve was a student of Possehl's and told me that when he was trained, the question was always presented in stark terms filled with unevidenced assumptions: "Which language (sic) did the Indus symbols encode? Was it some proto-Dravidian language or some early form of Indo-Aryan?" As Steve W. pointed out, the either/or issue was presented so definitively that no one even thought of alternatives. We realize now -- and I'm including here now Steve W. -- that there were a lot of assumptions in these leading questions, in what magicians call "Magician's Choice": (1) the unexamined assumption before Michael and I began working on this together, later joined by Richard Sproat, that there was a language of some sort encoded in these symbols; (2) the (largely) unexamined assumption that the Indus supposedly spoke one language (a pretty odd assumption when you consider the linguistic diversity in those regions in every other period, ancient or modern!); and (3) unexamined assumption three, that the "language" was supposedly proto-Dravidian (an even odder choice when you look at the evidence on the historical movements of Dravidian-speaking peoples, as Michael and many others now have argued at length). I remember how happy we all were when our good friend Frank Southworth (and deeply ingrained "Dravidianist" himself) finally capitulated after lots of heated and fun discussions at Harvard (and over drinks) on this back in 2004. During the 2004 Roundtable, he called his wife on the phone and said something along the lines of "Honey, I'm afraid we have to give in." :^) Frank was gracious enough after reading an early copy of "Collapse" to change key lines in the final proofs of _The Linguistic Archaeology of South Asia_ (2005) on the Indus issue. You write: > My particular concern is to get some notion of the prehistory of > South India and the influx (if there was one) of the Dravidian > languages into that area. While this area is outside my expertise, > my impression is that Dravidian speakers might have come to South > India about 3000 BC and brought neolithic culture. I'd be > interested if others have evidence in this regard. On this issue I'm very pleased to say I'm a total spectator -- which may allow me with this post to slip out the door. :^) Maybe we'll have more to say after some announcements in Kyoto. Best wishes and thanks, Steve From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue May 5 00:47:37 2009 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 17:47:37 -0700 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <49FF869C.7020607@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227086128.23782.4423257288567362210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 963 Lines: 25 On May 4, 2009, at 5:21 PM, George Thompson wrote: > I believe that if one were to check the archives of this list, one > would find much discussion of the Indus Valley Civilization in > which scepticism that the IVC signs were a script is often expressed. Interesting, George! Can you quote some posts from before late 1999 (when I first posted on the List) where that is "often expressed?" I'm interested in seeing them. I've pointed to Fairservis' early partial suggestions to this from around 1969, but then he changed his mind after the claims came out that the "code" had been "broken." Lots of people have said after our work was published that they were privately skeptical about it (e.g., Frits Staal), but I didn't know of expressions (with arguments? without them?) on the List. Possehl's overview of the field from 1996 doesn't contain any hints along this direction. Anyway, credit isn't what is a stake here. Best, Steve From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Tue May 5 00:21:48 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 20:21:48 -0400 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: <8F547756-AC8F-4480-A072-DCCD45BF3F8E@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227086126.23782.11760553243317393804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1489 Lines: 33 S. Farmer wrote: <> I believe that if one were to check the archives of this list, one would find much discussion of the Indus Valley Civilization in which scepticism that the IVC signs were a script is often expressed. One would also find in these archives suggestions that IVC was possibly or even probably multilingual. India has been multilingual for as long as we have known it. All of this was known long before S. Farmer appeared on the scene "like some refreshing breath of fresh air" [in his own mind, that is]. Self-aggrandizement aside, there is little new here. The Farmer Sproat Witzel thesis is well-known already, and I am inclined to accept it. Parpola has offered only vaguely possible alternatives, hardly convincing. But Farmer has been quoted as stating that there is "zero chance" that the IVC signs reflect a true script! "Zero chance"? Is this an accurate quotation, and do Sproat and Witzel agree with it? Is the phrase "zero chance" truly scientific -- or is it, rather, merely more bluster from him? George Thompson > From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Tue May 5 01:34:40 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 04 May 09 21:34:40 -0400 Subject: Linear B texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086130.23782.6691635206199841561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1341 Lines: 39 Since Michael Witzel is the S. Asianist component of your brain, maybe you should consult him or it. I've got too many students and friends and family to take care of right now. I have given my suggestions. Pursue them for yourself, or not. As for credit *not* being at stake here: who are you kidding? GT Steve Farmer wrote: > On May 4, 2009, at 5:21 PM, George Thompson wrote: > >> I believe that if one were to check the archives of this list, one >> would find much discussion of the Indus Valley Civilization in which >> scepticism that the IVC signs were a script is often expressed. > > > Interesting, George! Can you quote some posts from before late 1999 > (when I first posted on the List) where that is "often expressed?" > I'm interested in seeing them. > > I've pointed to Fairservis' early partial suggestions to this from > around 1969, but then he changed his mind after the claims came out > that the "code" had been "broken." Lots of people have said after our > work was published that they were privately skeptical about it (e.g., > Frits Staal), but I didn't know of expressions (with arguments? > without them?) on the List. Possehl's overview of the field from 1996 > doesn't contain any hints along this direction. > > Anyway, credit isn't what is a stake here. > > Best, > Steve > > From fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU Tue May 5 12:00:41 2009 From: fritsstaal at BERKELEY.EDU (FRITS STAAL) Date: Tue, 05 May 09 05:00:41 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086134.23782.13315081175392550823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 671 Lines: 36 Do you think such blogs would be of any use to me? Can I open them? Thanks as always, best, Frits > The "links" section of the INDOLOGY website now contains a new section > listing indology-related blogs. > > http://indology.info/links/weblog/ > > Please send any suggestions for additional blogsites to > > indologycommittee at liverpool.ac.uk > > Additions to the INDOLOGY webiste listing will be at the discretion of the > committee. > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > > -- > Dr Dominik Wujastyk > International Institute of Asian Studies > http://iias.nl > > long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com > Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Tue May 5 10:31:58 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 05 May 09 11:31:58 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY website update Message-ID: <161227086132.23782.1097881200469336030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 485 Lines: 24 The "links" section of the INDOLOGY website now contains a new section listing indology-related blogs. http://indology.info/links/weblog/ Please send any suggestions for additional blogsites to indologycommittee at liverpool.ac.uk Additions to the INDOLOGY webiste listing will be at the discretion of the committee. Best, Dominik Wujastyk -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed May 6 18:52:09 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Wed, 06 May 09 14:52:09 -0400 Subject: Hindi Lecturer Position at Michigan Message-ID: <161227086137.23782.145122579861753091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2129 Lines: 19 Dear Indologists, Here is the Ad for a Hindi Lecturer Position at the University of Michigan. Please circulate it among interested individuals. Thanks. "The Department of Asian Languages and Cultures at University of Michigan invites applications for the position of Lecturer I in Hindi beginning September 1, 2009. The position is a renewable one-year appointment, and is subject to final budgetary approval. Applicants should have a Master?s degree in a relevant field such as the following: Hindi language, literature, or linguistics; Hindi Studies; second-language acquisition, TESL, etc. Native or near-native proficiency in Hindi and English is required; at least one year of experience teaching Hindi at the college/university level is preferred. Duties will include 12 weekly hours of instruction in all levels of Hindi language and active participation in teamwork and program affairs. The application dossier should include an application letter explaining your qualifications and teaching philosophy, a current CV, and three letters of recommendation. In addition, evidence of teaching excellence, a teaching demo videotape/DVD, and/or samples of self-developed teaching materials would be desirable. Kindly send your application packet to: Hindi Lecturer Search Committee, Department of Asian Languages and Cultures, University of Michigan, Suite 6111 Thayer Building, 202 South Thayer, Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608. Or electronically Review of applications will begin on June 1 and will continue until the position is filled. University of Michigan is a non-discriminatory/affirmative action employer. Women and minorities are encouraged to apply. Terms and conditions for this position are subject to the provisions of a Collective Bargaining Agreement between the University of Michigan and the Lecturers? Employee Organization." Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG Wed May 6 21:46:53 2009 From: r.mahoney at INDICA-ET-BUDDHICA.ORG (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Thu, 07 May 09 09:46:53 +1200 Subject: INDOLOGY updates now on _Twitter_ Message-ID: <161227086139.23782.6154549929279006322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1261 Lines: 49 Dear Colleagues, Lately I've been wondering about the best way to quickly provide updates on the INDOLOGY web site and the SARIT Project &c., so I've decided to try something new. The existing RSS Feed for the site: http://indology.info/rss1.xml is being replaced by a new RSS Feed courtesy of _Twitter_: *RSS Feed of INDOLOGY's Updates* http://twitter.com/statuses/user_timeline/38036206.rss People are asked to update their feed readers and perhaps consider following our updates through _Twitter_ itself: *INDOLOGY on Twitter* http://twitter.com/INDOLOGY For those curious about why _Twitter_ is being tried these links may be helpful: This is how we do it: @nlnz on Twitter (National Library of New Zealand / Te Puna M?tauranga o Aotearoa) http://tinyurl.com/dx2ktf Why I Love Twitter by Tim O'Reilly http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/11/why-i-like-twitter.html Best regards, Richard -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 275 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indica et Buddhica: Materials for Indology and Buddhology From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu May 7 19:26:21 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Thu, 07 May 09 15:26:21 -0400 Subject: TAMIL Lecturer Position at Michigan Message-ID: <161227086146.23782.4932827461309900602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2107 Lines: 19 Dear Indologists, Here is the Ad for a Tamil Lecturer Position at the University of Michigan. Please circulate it among interested individuals. Thanks. The Department of Asian Languages and Cultures at University of Michigan invites applications for a renewable Lecturer position in Tamil language starting September 1, 2009. Applicants should have an MA in a relevant field, native or near-native competence in oral/written Tamil and English, at least two years of experience in teaching Tamil as a second or foreign language at the college/university level, knowledge of the US educational system, and familiarity with language teaching methodologies as well as computer-assisted language instruction. Expertise and experience in curriculum and program development are preferred. Responsibilities include 10-12 instructional hours a week at any assigned levels and active involvement in teamwork and program affairs. A complete dossier includes a letter of application explaining your qualifications and teaching philosophy, a current CV, evidence of teaching excellence, a teaching demo DVD, and three letters of recommendation. Samples of materials and/or project development are strongly recommended. Please send all your application documents to Tamil Lecturer Search Committee, Department of Asian Languages and Cultures, University of Michigan, 202 S. Thayer Street, Suite 6111, Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608. Review of applications will begin March 10 and continue until the position is filled. University of Michigan is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer. Terms and conditions for this position are subject to the provisions of a Collective Bargaining Agreement between the University of Michigan and the Lecturers? Employee Organization. Inquiries should be directed to Nikki Branch (enb at umich.edu), Department Administrator. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Thu May 7 15:09:19 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van Bijlert) Date: Thu, 07 May 09 17:09:19 +0200 Subject: Dr.Godard Hendrik Schokker passed away Message-ID: <161227086141.23782.11935435136424559984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 749 Lines: 17 On the first of May Dr. Godard Schokker had passed away. Dr.Schokker had been teaching Hindi language and literature as well as Marathi and Bengali at the Institute Kern of Leiden University, The Netherlands. Dr. Schokker had retired many years ago was still very active in his field of indology. I am sure many people: colleagues and former students will miss him and fondly remember his patient but steady way of explaining the knotty points of Hindi grammar. One of dr. Schokker's last writings was a contribution together with dr. M.K.Gautam on Johan Josua Ketelaar (1659-1718) and the first summary of Hindustani grammar in Dutch for the servants of the Dutch East India Company (the VOC). Victor van Bijlert Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu May 7 16:36:31 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 07 May 09 22:06:31 +0530 Subject: Dr.Godard Hendrik Schokker passed away Message-ID: <161227086144.23782.17374668151430432039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1659 Lines: 38 This is sad news. Dr.Schokker's character was charming and unassuming. I never knew from him that he was a good Sanskrit philologist too. Even only a knowledge of his acquaintance with and broad interpretation of late medieval Hindi literature and literary movements made one discern a distinct scholarship and personality. Schokker well recognised the social content underlying the religion oriented literature. Not many in the West will see 'protestantism' in Meera and Kabir. Dipak Bhattacharya --- On Thu, 7/5/09, victor van Bijlert wrote: From: victor van Bijlert Subject: Dr.Godard Hendrik Schokker passed away To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 7 May, 2009, 8:39 PM On the first of May Dr. Godard Schokker had passed away. Dr.Schokker had been teaching Hindi language and literature as well as Marathi and Bengali at the Institute Kern of Leiden University, The Netherlands. Dr. Schokker had retired many years ago was still very active in his field of indology. I am sure many people: colleagues and former students will miss him and fondly remember his patient but steady way of explaining the knotty points of Hindi grammar. One of dr. Schokker's last writings was a contribution together with dr. M.K.Gautam on Johan Josua Ketelaar (1659-1718) and the first summary of Hindustani grammar in Dutch for the servants of the Dutch East India Company (the VOC). Victor van Bijlert Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri May 8 11:15:01 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 07:15:01 -0400 Subject: Unusual word - help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086162.23782.15937723489908025624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1517 Lines: 41 Hello Venetia, ?tasthu?? is the feminine form of ?tasthivas, masculine: ?tasthiv?n, from ?+sth?. [Perfect Participle, Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar, p. 291.] The verbal construction will be: striya? talpam ?ti??hante "the women resort to ..." Best, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of venetia ansell [venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 6:38 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Unusual word - help needed Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta Deshika's Hamsasandesham 1.20? The verse and translation are below and I've added the glosses that two commentaries give: ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard the rice. They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade of the sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves entirely in the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the **Kar???ak** and ** ?ndhra** tongues.* One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another '?sthitavat?n?m'. Thank you very much, Venetia Ansell From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Fri May 8 07:48:26 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 09:48:26 +0200 Subject: Question on digital epigraphy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086149.23782.5751021778827306969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1557 Lines: 53 Dear Colleagues, checking some internet resources for Indian epigraphy, I came across an interesting example of digital hybrid: the item so-called "EPO [sic] GRAPHIA BIRMANICA VOL 4 PART 2 (1973)" http://www.archive.org/details/epographiabirman014758mbp appears to mix 1?) the additional plates to Epigraphia Birmanica IV/1, 1936 ["EPIGRAPHIA BIRMANICA"], the preceding part being available at http://www.archive.org/details/epigraphiabirman014350mbp 2?) An incomplete index (p. 103-171, letters M to V) of places, names and realia referring obviously to inscriptions from Karnataka, under the form: Date (from 1909 to 1920), P. + a number (two digits) I am very interested by this index, where I would like to know to which refers this: "Santima, Island, 1910, P. 28" So thank you in advance for helping me to identify both the source-index and the reference (some volume of the ARMAD?), Christophe Vielle A few other interesting epigraphical resources : -Epigraphia Carnatica IV , 1893 http://www.archive.org/details/epigraphiacarnat04mysouoft -EC V/1, 1902 http://www.archive.org/details/epigraphiacarnat05mysouoft -EC X, 1905 http://www.archive.org/details/p2epigraphiacarn10mysouoft -Annual Report of the Mysore Archaeological Department for the year 1932 (1935) -EC new series III, 1974 http://www.archive.org/details/epigraphiacarnat014759mbp - Epigraphia Indo-Moslemica 1937-38 ["EPOGRAPHIA BIRMANICA VOL 4 PART 2 (1937)"] http://www.archive.org/details/epographiabirman014774mbp -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From H.J.H.Tieken at HUM.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri May 8 10:57:54 2009 From: H.J.H.Tieken at HUM.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 12:57:54 +0200 Subject: Unusual word - help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086154.23782.11853410271761452283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1139 Lines: 30 It is the genitive plural fem. of the active perfect participle of aa-sthaa-: aatasthivas/aatasthu.s Herman Tieken -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of venetia ansell Sent: vrijdag 8 mei 2009 12:39 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Unusual word - help needed Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta Deshika's Hamsasandesham 1.20? The verse and translation are below and I've added the glosses that two commentaries give: ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard the rice. They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade of the sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves entirely in the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the **Kar???ak** and ** ?ndhra** tongues.* One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another '?sthitavat?n?m'. Thank you very much, Venetia Ansell From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Fri May 8 10:58:40 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 12:58:40 +0200 Subject: Unusual word - help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086157.23782.7157089276986569225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1182 Lines: 43 Its a perfect participle of aasthaa. See MW s.v. tasthivas: mf(<-thu.sii>)n. pf. p. P. , q.v. An echo of Raghuva.m"sa 4:20: ik.succhaayaani.saadinyas tasya goptur gu.nodayam| aakumaarakathodghaata.m "saaligopyo jagur ya"sa.h|| On 8 May 2009, at 12:38, venetia ansell wrote: > Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta > Deshika's > Hamsasandesham 1.20? The verse and translation are below and I've > added the > glosses that two commentaries give: > > ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? > > sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | > > kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede > muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? > > *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard > the rice. > They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade > of the > sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves > entirely in > the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the > **Kar???ak** and ** > ?ndhra** tongues.* > > One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another > '?sthitavat?n?m'. > > Thank you very much, > > Venetia Ansell From straube at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE Fri May 8 11:01:33 2009 From: straube at STAFF.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Martin Straube) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 13:01:33 +0200 Subject: Unusual word - help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086159.23782.17705567675146922560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1228 Lines: 44 It looks like a reduplicated perfect participle (gen. pl. fem.) of ?-sth?, hence it is correctly glossed "?sthitavat?n?m". Martin Straube Zitat von venetia ansell : > Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta Deshika's > Hamsasandesham 1.20? The verse and translation are below and I've added the > glosses that two commentaries give: > > ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? > > sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | > > kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede > muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? > > *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard the rice. > They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade of the > sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves entirely in > the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the **Kar???ak** and ** > ?ndhra** tongues.* > > One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another '?sthitavat?n?m'. > > Thank you very much, > > Venetia Ansell > > --- Dr. des. Martin Straube Fachgebiet Indologie und Tibetologie Philipps-Universitaet Marburg Deutschhausstrasse 12 35032 Marburg (Germany) www.uni-marburg.de/indologie From venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM Fri May 8 10:38:33 2009 From: venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM (venetia ansell) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 16:08:33 +0530 Subject: Unusual word - help needed Message-ID: <161227086151.23782.13025769207159645918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 815 Lines: 25 Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta Deshika's Hamsasandesham 1.20? The verse and translation are below and I've added the glosses that two commentaries give: ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard the rice. They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade of the sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves entirely in the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the **Kar???ak** and ** ?ndhra** tongues.* One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another '?sthitavat?n?m'. Thank you very much, Venetia Ansell From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri May 8 11:56:52 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 08 May 09 17:26:52 +0530 Subject: Unusual word - help needed Message-ID: <161227086164.23782.4033269298420447472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2111 Lines: 57 Here ?sth? ?should mean ' to mount', talpa 'a raised bed, the Indian bed-stead or paalank'. But plain bed seems to have been?meant 'having seated themselves on a bed formed of twigs under the shade etc' gives better sense. DB --- On Fri, 8/5/09, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: From: Deshpande, Madhav Subject: Re: Unusual word - help needed To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 8 May, 2009, 4:45 PM Hello Venetia, ?tasthu?? is the feminine form of ?tasthivas, masculine:? ?tasthiv?n, from ?+sth?.? [Perfect Participle, Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar, p. 291.]? The verbal construction will be:? striya? talpam ?ti??hante? "the women resort to ..."? Best, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics Department of Asian Languages and Cultures 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111 The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104-1608, USA ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of venetia ansell [venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 6:38 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Unusual word - help needed Can anyone help me with the form of ?tasthu????m from Vedanta Deshika's Hamsasandesham 1.20?? The verse and translation are below and I've added the glosses that two commentaries give: ik?u-cch?ye kisalaya-maya? talpam ?tasthu????? sa?l?pais tair mudita-manas?? ??li-sa?rak?ik???m | kar????-?ndhra-vyatikara-va??t karbure g?ti-bhede muhyant?n?? madana-kalu?a? maugdhyam ?sv?dayeth?? *Relish the simplicity, stirred up by love, of the girls who guard the rice. They revel at heart in all sorts of gossip as they sit in the shade of the sugarcane using sprouting shoots as seats, forgetting themselves entirely in the strangely blended songs formed from a mix of the **Kar???ak** and ** ?ndhra** tongues.* One commentary glosses '??rit?n??' and another '?sthitavat?n?m'. Thank you very much, Venetia Ansell Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From cbpicron at GMX.DE Mon May 11 13:42:39 2009 From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Bautze-Picron) Date: Mon, 11 May 09 15:42:39 +0200 Subject: Journ=?iso-8859-15?Q?=E9e?= "Monde Indien", Paris, 25th May Message-ID: <161227086167.23782.5895147513401777688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2100 Lines: 96 Dear Colleagues, In case you are passing through Paris on Monday 25th May, you are most welcome to attend to the annual meeting of the Indologists of the research team ?Mondes Iranien et Indien?. You will find herewith the program and below the address of the day. The program together with the abstracts of the communications will also be visible on the team website in the next days. Claudine Bautze-Picron. C.N.R.S (National Centre for Scientific Research) ? UMR 7528 ?Mondes Iranien et Indien? http://www.iran-inde.cnrs.fr/ 27, rue Paul Bert 94204 Ivry-sur-Seine, France T?l. 33 (0) 1 49 60 40 10 - Fax 33 (0) 1 45 21 94 19 Quatri?me Journ?e ?Monde Indien?, 25 mai 2009 Matin?e 10h15 Philip Huyse (EPHE, Directeur de l?UMR ?Mondes iranien et indien?) Pr?sentation des activit?s de Mondes iranien et indien en 2008 10h30 Phaedra Bouvet (Doctorante, Paris X-Nanterre) Le cas des c?ramiques indiennes et indianisantes du site arch?ologique de Khao Sam Kaeo (Tha?lande p?ninsulaire) - 4?-2? s. av. J.-C. 11h00 Iran Farkondeh (Doctorante, Paris III) Les femmes dans le Kath?sarits?gara 11h 30 Pause caf? 12h00 Ingo Strauch (Freie Universiteit Berlin) The Bajaur Collection of Kharosth? manuscripts: Studies in Buddhist G?ndh?r? literature 12h30 Marie-Luce Barazer-Billoret (Ma?tre de conf?rences, Paris III) Le shiva?sme ?gamique : travaux r?cents et projets 13h00-14h30 D?jeuner libre Apr?s-midi 14h30 J?r?me Petit (Biblioth?que nationale de France, Doctorant, Paris III) Les rouages du commerce dans l?Inde du 17?me si?cle ? travers les m?moires d?un marchand jaina 15h00 Emmanuel Francis (Doctorant, Universit? Catholique de Louvain, Louvain-la-Neuve) Symboles de richesse aux portes de sanctuaires du pays tamoul 15h30 Anne Casile (Doctorante, Paris III) Lectures du paysage arch?ologique de Badoh-Pathari en Inde centrale (5e-13e si?cle) 16 h Collation From xadxura at GMAIL.COM Wed May 13 19:07:53 2009 From: xadxura at GMAIL.COM (Andrew Glass) Date: Wed, 13 May 09 12:07:53 -0700 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: <6261D325-D9AF-45E0-8B65-F23620D8EAF8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227086174.23782.1841047512278703023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 53 Lines: 6 This situation has not improved with CS4. Andrew From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed May 13 16:40:09 2009 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Wed, 13 May 09 12:40:09 -0400 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? Message-ID: <161227086169.23782.12444951921716780460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 341 Lines: 15 Greetings, I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone know of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? Thanks, Paul Hackett Columbia University From adheesh at OCF.BERKELEY.EDU Thu May 14 00:52:04 2009 From: adheesh at OCF.BERKELEY.EDU (Adheesh Sathaye) Date: Wed, 13 May 09 17:52:04 -0700 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: <6261D325-D9AF-45E0-8B65-F23620D8EAF8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227086181.23782.8769190268769579151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3175 Lines: 80 I wonder if anyone has had any success with the newly released "World Ready Composer" plugin for CS4 (ME edition) on the Mac? Info about it is available here: http://www.thomasphinney.com/tag/world-ready-composer/ , which I discovered from an article on the reliable "Multilingual Mac" blog: http://m10lmac.blogspot.com/2009/02/adobe-app-language-improvements.html I would be interested to know if anyone has had the opportunity to try out what might be a positive new development in this front? Also, has anyone else noticed that Devanagari rendering appears to work in Powerpoint 2008 (for Mac) but not the rest of the Office 2008 suite? Perhaps also a positive step from Microsoft? All best wishes, Adheesh ---- Adheesh Sathaye Department of Asian Studies University of British Columbia On May 13, 2009, at 10:56 AM, alessandro graheli wrote: > Dear Paul, > > it seems an impossible task. InDesign, at least upto CS3, is known > for not providing support for Indic scripts. I?ve read there is some > plugin to use OpenType Devanagari fonts on Windows, but not for Mac. > On OSX there is an additional, mighty problem with Unicode > Devanagari: the otherwise excellent built-in engine which manages > ligatures and vowel-signs of Indic scripts works only with AAT > (Apple Advanced Typography) fonts, such as Devanagari Monotype which > comes with OSX. The Windows universe mostly uses OpenType Devanagari > fonts. To put it simply, unlike with Latin and other Unicode ranges, > when one tries to convert files from Windows to Mac or viceversa, he > will get a mess with ligatures and vowel-signs, because of the > different engines and because of the different intrinsic features of > the fonts. > > Specifically, Truetype fonts which run on Mac OSX, Devanagari MT > included, manage variants such as ligatures and old type numbers > through AAT (Advanced Apple Typography) tables, which need to be > read and applied by the software that uses the font, both in source > and output. InDesign will ignore some of these features and will > handle only the basic Unicode characters. Unicode charts, in fact, > prescribe only the encoding for the basic alphabetic characters, > while variations of glyphs such as ligatures are handled by such > tables which lay deep in the font structure. A problem with AAT > tables is that there is hardly any documentation available and to > access them, not to speak of modifying them, so improving such fonts > seems rather problematic. Conversely native OSX software such as > TextEdit, for instance, handles all the AAT tables and thus renders > ligatures properly. > > Hope it helps, > > Alessandro Graheli > Rome, Italy > > Il giorno 13/mag/09, alle ore 18:40, Paul G. Hackett ha scritto: > > Greetings, > > I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe > InDesign (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a > Unicode font that will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in > InDesign. Does anyone know of any such font that will do so (free > or otherwise)? > > Thanks, > > Paul Hackett > Columbia University > From a.graheli at GMAIL.COM Wed May 13 17:56:57 2009 From: a.graheli at GMAIL.COM (alessandro graheli) Date: Wed, 13 May 09 19:56:57 +0200 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086171.23782.12810836169567480284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2211 Lines: 52 Dear Paul, it seems an impossible task. InDesign, at least upto CS3, is known for not providing support for Indic scripts. I?ve read there is some plugin to use OpenType Devanagari fonts on Windows, but not for Mac. On OSX there is an additional, mighty problem with Unicode Devanagari: the otherwise excellent built-in engine which manages ligatures and vowel-signs of Indic scripts works only with AAT (Apple Advanced Typography) fonts, such as Devanagari Monotype which comes with OSX. The Windows universe mostly uses OpenType Devanagari fonts. To put it simply, unlike with Latin and other Unicode ranges, when one tries to convert files from Windows to Mac or viceversa, he will get a mess with ligatures and vowel-signs, because of the different engines and because of the different intrinsic features of the fonts. Specifically, Truetype fonts which run on Mac OSX, Devanagari MT included, manage variants such as ligatures and old type numbers through AAT (Advanced Apple Typography) tables, which need to be read and applied by the software that uses the font, both in source and output. InDesign will ignore some of these features and will handle only the basic Unicode characters. Unicode charts, in fact, prescribe only the encoding for the basic alphabetic characters, while variations of glyphs such as ligatures are handled by such tables which lay deep in the font structure. A problem with AAT tables is that there is hardly any documentation available and to access them, not to speak of modifying them, so improving such fonts seems rather problematic. Conversely native OSX software such as TextEdit, for instance, handles all the AAT tables and thus renders ligatures properly. Hope it helps, Alessandro Graheli Rome, Italy Il giorno 13/mag/09, alle ore 18:40, Paul G. Hackett ha scritto: Greetings, I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone know of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? Thanks, Paul Hackett Columbia University From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Wed May 13 23:25:33 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Thu, 14 May 09 01:25:33 +0200 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086178.23782.14497103351954817812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1126 Lines: 41 Madhav Deshpande had guided me through using the Devanagari QWERTY keyboard under the International input option on the Mac (see System Preferences). Then selecting the Arial Unicode MS. This works perfectly well in NeoOffice, with all the ligatures required by typing an "f" after the relevant letter, then the next letter. Aspirated letters come from shift, plus the letter, initial vowels from alt-letter, etc. The alt-letter combo provides the retroflexes as well. ? from z ? from x ??? from alt s ? from shift s ? from shift n ? from alt n ? from . ? from alt ' for instance ???????: ???????: etc. not sure whether this will work in your Adobe program. ?????: James Hartzell On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Paul G. Hackett wrote: > Greetings, > > I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign > (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that > will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone know > of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? > > Thanks, > > Paul Hackett > Columbia University > From sellmers at GMX.DE Thu May 14 07:09:04 2009 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Thu, 14 May 09 09:09:04 +0200 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086184.23782.9279333004515059530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1785 Lines: 69 Unfortunately, not all ligatures seem to work in this way: for example -Gg- (as in gaGgA) appears (both in NeoOffice and in Mail) as G+vir?ma +g (?????). This ligature I, for one, can only generate in TextEdit by enabling "All ligatures". Or is there any way to get around this problem? Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl Am 14.05.2009 um 01:25 schrieb James Hartzell: > Madhav Deshpande had guided me through using the Devanagari QWERTY > keyboard > under the International input option on the Mac (see System > Preferences). > Then selecting the Arial Unicode MS. This works perfectly well in > NeoOffice, with all the ligatures required by typing an "f" after the > relevant letter, then the next letter. Aspirated letters come from > shift, > plus the letter, initial vowels from alt-letter, etc. The alt- > letter combo > provides the retroflexes as well. > ? from z > ? from x > ??? from alt s > ? from shift s > ? from shift n > ? from alt n > ? from . > ? from alt ' > > for instance > ???????: > ???????: etc. > not sure whether this will work in your Adobe program. > > ?????: > James Hartzell > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Paul G. Hackett > wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe >> InDesign >> (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode >> font that >> will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does >> anyone know >> of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Paul Hackett >> Columbia University >> From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Thu May 14 09:36:37 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Thu, 14 May 09 11:36:37 +0200 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086186.23782.2587380374670903555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2027 Lines: 74 Dear Sven I see that you're correct for ?????; I don't know how to get around this particular problem. Cheers James On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Sven Sellmer wrote: > Unfortunately, not all ligatures seem to work in this way: for example -Gg- > (as in gaGgA) appears (both in NeoOffice and in Mail) as G+vir?ma+g (?????). > This ligature I, for one, can only generate in TextEdit by enabling "All > ligatures". Or is there any way to get around this problem? > Best wishes, > Sven Sellmer > > ************************************ > Dr. Sven Sellmer > Adam Mickiewicz University > Institute of Oriental Studies > South Asia Unit > ul. 28 czerwca 1956 nr 198 > 61-485 Pozna? > POLAND > sven at amu.edu.pl > > Am 14.05.2009 um 01:25 schrieb James Hartzell: > > > Madhav Deshpande had guided me through using the Devanagari QWERTY >> keyboard >> under the International input option on the Mac (see System Preferences). >> Then selecting the Arial Unicode MS. This works perfectly well in >> NeoOffice, with all the ligatures required by typing an "f" after the >> relevant letter, then the next letter. Aspirated letters come from shift, >> plus the letter, initial vowels from alt-letter, etc. The alt-letter >> combo >> provides the retroflexes as well. >> ? from z >> ? from x >> ??? from alt s >> ? from shift s >> ? from shift n >> ? from alt n >> ? from . >> ? from alt ' >> >> for instance >> ???????: >> ???????: etc. >> not sure whether this will work in your Adobe program. >> >> ?????: >> James Hartzell >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Paul G. Hackett > >wrote: >> >> Greetings, >>> >>> I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign >>> (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that >>> will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone >>> know >>> of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Paul Hackett >>> Columbia University >>> >>> From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Thu May 14 12:27:43 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 May 09 13:27:43 +0100 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086190.23782.14182223252242604554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1510 Lines: 54 How things have moved on! I routinely read email with Alpine (successor to Pine), a character-based email client. Yet I see all the N?gar? below perfectly well (and romanized Sa?sk?ta goes without saying). What a relief after all those years of saMskRta etc. Dominik On Thu, 14 May 2009, James Hartzell wrote: > Madhav Deshpande had guided me through using the Devanagari QWERTY keyboard > under the International input option on the Mac (see System Preferences). > Then selecting the Arial Unicode MS. This works perfectly well in > NeoOffice, with all the ligatures required by typing an "f" after the > relevant letter, then the next letter. Aspirated letters come from shift, > plus the letter, initial vowels from alt-letter, etc. The alt-letter combo > provides the retroflexes as well. > ? from z > ? from x > ??? from alt s > ? from shift s > ? from shift n > ? from alt n > ? from . > ? from alt ' > > for instance > ???????: > ???????: etc. > not sure whether this will work in your Adobe program. > > ?????: > James Hartzell > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Paul G. Hackett wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign >> (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that >> will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone know >> of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Paul Hackett >> Columbia University >> > From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Thu May 14 14:45:41 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 14 May 09 15:45:41 +0100 Subject: Devanagari Unicode fonts for the Mac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086194.23782.4409053449826642508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 636 Lines: 25 It seems that Scribus, a free competitor for InDesign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribus), doesn't do Indic fonts (i.e., "complex script rendering") either yet (http://wiki.scribus.net/index.php/Image:Rendering1.png). DW On Wed, 13 May 2009, Paul G. Hackett wrote: > Greetings, > > I am attempting to typeset some Unicode Devanagari text in Adobe InDesign > (CS3) on the Mac (OS X.5.6) but cannot seem to locate a Unicode font that > will function correctly (i.e. form ligatures) in InDesign. Does anyone know > of any such font that will do so (free or otherwise)? > > Thanks, > > Paul Hackett > Columbia University > From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Fri May 15 09:18:10 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 15 May 09 11:18:10 +0200 Subject: Ancient Aramaic Documents from Bactria : published or not ? Message-ID: <161227086197.23782.7425923131288592099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3731 Lines: 108 Dear Colleagues Is this long-waited book now published and available or still not ? Christophe Vielle Title: Ancient Aramaic Documents From Bactria: 4th Century B.c.e. Author: Joseph Naveh, Shaul Shaked ISBN 1874780749 ISBN-13 9781874780748 Binding: Hardcover Publisher: Khalili Collections Number of Pages: 224 Language: English First publication of a group of thirty documents on leather in Imperial Aramaic, dating to the fourth century B.C.E. and reflecting the practice of the Achaemenian administration in Bactria and Sogdiana. Eighteen inscribed wooden sticks, for use as tallies, dated to the third year of King Darius Ill, are also included. They are considered to be the second most important discovery of its type known. Two of the leather documents relate to the fall of the Persian Empire: one mentions Bessus, the usurper of the Persian throne, travelling to Warnu (Greek Aornos); the other is a long list of supplies in the year 7 of King Alexander. In addition to their valuable historical contents, the documents enrich our knowledge of Aramaic and its lexicon. The documents are given in Aramaic with translation, introduction, commentary and glossary. The volume is lavishly illustrated. http://www.khalili.org/research-ic-aramaic.html ["2005"] http://www.flipkart.com/ancient-aramaic-documents-bactria-joseph/1874780749-00x3fu4q4c ["Publishing Date: 01-2008"] http://www.infibeam.com/Books/info/Joseph-Naveh/Ancient-Aramaic-Documents-from-Bactria-4th-Century/1874780749.html http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ancient-Aramaic-Documents-Bactria-Collection/dp/1874780749 ["This title has not yet been released. You may pre-order it now and we will deliver it to you when it arrives - Publisher: Khalili Collections (18 Dec 2009)"] >>Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:55:03 +0200 >>From: Steve Farmer >>Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] Update: Ancient Aramaic Documents from Bactria >> >> >>Dear List, >> >>Back in 2005 we discussed on the List the recent finds of >>Achaemenid-era Aramaic texts from Bactria -- really critical to >>understanding the spread of writing to Central Asia and, presumably, to >>NW India as well. >> >>The manuscripts in the collection were to be edited by Joseph Naveh and >>Shaul Shaked, and were announced in a tantalizing pr?cis by Shaked that >>came out in 2004: >> Shaul Shaked, Le satrape de Bactriane et son gouverneur: Documents aram?ens du IVe s. avant notre ?re provenant de Bactriane. Conf?rences donn?es au Coll?ge de France 14 et 21 mai 2003 (Persika, 4), Paris: De Boccard, 2004. 62 pp. ISBN 2 7018 0170 2. >> >> >>Some description of this little booklet (only 62 pages long) at [updated]: >> >>http://abstractairanica.revues.org/document5779.html >> https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/3201/ >>I wrote to Shaul Shaked in early 2005 and asked when the edition would >>come out. He wrote that it would be out that Fall, and I've tried to >>buy it periodically ever since. This morning, however, I ran into >>the following notice that says that it is not planned now to be >>published until 2008: >> >>http://tinyurl.com/y8ap3l [lost] >> >>Michael and I have both read Shaked's pr?cis, which includes quotations >>from the texts that have a number of oddities in them. The texts also >>contain direct references to Alexander the Great and Bessus, the >>supposed murderer of Darius III, which makes one a bit curious.... >> >>Anyway, I thought I'd give an update on the text. If anyone is in >>contact with Shaul Shaked at present and has more up-to-date >>information on the release of the book, please let us know! >> >>Steve >> > >-- > > >http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be -- http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 15 17:01:43 2009 From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Fri, 15 May 09 12:01:43 -0500 Subject: Ancient Aramaic Documents from Bactria : published or not ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086204.23782.1728132239763027980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2168 Lines: 60 Dear Christophe Vielle, As I have myself recently search for this book unsuccessfully, my guess is that it has not yet come out. I have, however, cross-posted your query to the Indo-Eurasian list of which prof. Shaked is a member. I will let the list here know how he responds. Best Wishes, Benjamin -- Benjamin Fleming Mellon Post-doctoral Fellow, Dept. of Religious Studies University of Pennsylvania 249 S. 36th Street; Claudia Cohen Hall, #234 Philadelphia, PA 19104 U.S.A. Telephone - 215-746-7792 > Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 11:18:10 +0200 > From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE > Subject: Ancient Aramaic Documents from Bactria : published or not ? > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Dear Colleagues > > Is this long-waited book now published and available or still not ? > > Christophe Vielle > > Title: Ancient Aramaic Documents From Bactria: 4th Century B.c.e. > Author: Joseph Naveh, Shaul Shaked > ISBN 1874780749 > ISBN-13 9781874780748 > Binding: Hardcover > Publisher: Khalili Collections > Number of Pages: 224 > Language: English > > First publication of a group of thirty documents > on leather in Imperial Aramaic, dating to the > fourth century B.C.E. and reflecting the practice > of the Achaemenian administration in Bactria and > Sogdiana. Eighteen inscribed wooden sticks, for > use as tallies, dated to the third year of King > Darius Ill, are also included. They are > considered to be the second most important > discovery of its type known. > Two of the leather documents relate to the fall > of the Persian Empire: one mentions Bessus, the > usurper of the Persian throne, travelling to > Warnu (Greek Aornos); the other is a long list of > supplies in the year 7 of King Alexander. In > addition to their valuable historical contents, > the documents enrich our knowledge of Aramaic and > its lexicon. The documents are given in Aramaic > with translation, introduction, commentary and > glossary. The volume is lavishly illustrated. _________________________________________________________________ Create a cool, new character for your Windows Live? Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656621 From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Fri May 15 10:42:00 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 15 May 09 12:42:00 +0200 Subject: Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax Message-ID: <161227086201.23782.11186845999072626272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1353 Lines: 34 Indian Summer in Halle ? Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax Dear Colleagues, We are pleased to announce that an Intensive Course in Vedic Grammar and Syntax will be held at the Indology Department of Martin Luther University Halle (Saale) from September 14th to 25th, 2009. The course, comprising an introduction into Vedic grammar and syntax as well as the reading of Vedic hymns and prose, will be taught by Werner Knobl (Kyoto). The medium of teaching will be German. All those interested in the course are most welcome and kindly asked to register by July 1st. Details are available on our website: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/veda.htm See also http:// www.indologie.uni-halle.de Please do pass on this message to anyone possibly interested. Yours sincerely, Annette Schmiedchen / Katrin Einicke annette.schmiedchen at indologie.uni-halle.de katrin.einicke at indologie.uni-halle.de ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri May 15 17:35:46 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Fri, 15 May 09 13:35:46 -0400 Subject: Syntax of Dative Message-ID: <161227086208.23782.15088289086997852201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 528 Lines: 8 Dear Colleagues I am looking for some scholarly discussion on the use of datives with verbs like vidmahe and dh?mahi found in the late G?yatr?s as found in texts like the Taittir?iya Ara?yaka, e.g. ?????????? ??????? ???????? ????? / ????? ?????? ?????????? // The use of dative in these late G?yatr?s contrasts with the accusative in the old G?yatr? : ??? ?????????????? ????? ?????? ?????. I am looking for any scholarly discussion of this shift (?). Didn't see anything in Speyer/Speijer. Best, Madhav M. Deshpande From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK Fri May 15 20:28:27 2009 From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox) Date: Fri, 15 May 09 21:28:27 +0100 Subject: Cambridge 22-23 May: Bilingual Discourse and Cross-Cultural Fertilisation: Tamil and Sanskrit in Mediaeval India Message-ID: <161227086211.23782.14402960422034528817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2832 Lines: 118 Dear colleagues, On behalf of Vincenzo Vergiani and myself, I'd like to cordially invite any and all of you who maybe in SE England next week to attend the workshop we are jointly convening, Bilingual Discourse and Cross-Cultural Fertilisation: Tamil and Sanskrit in Mediaeval India. The workshop website can be found at the following URL, and I attach a schedule of presentations below, http://www.ames.cam.ac.uk/news_events/sanskrit-tamil-mediaeval-india.htm All the best, Whitney Cox Friday 22 May: 9:00-9:30 Coffee, welcoming and opening remarks Session 1 (Dominic GOODALL, chair) 9:30-10:00 Eva WILDEN ?Ten Stages of Love (da?a k?m?vasth??) and Eight Types of Marriage (a??aviv?ha) in the Tolk?ppiyam? 10:00-10:30 Whitney COX ?Meypp??u and na?avil nilai in I?amp?ra?ar: from source-criticism to intellectual history? 10:30-11:00 Hermann TIEKEN ?Early Tamil poetics between N??ya??stra and R?gam?l?? 11:00-11:45 Discussion Lunch (12:00-1:30) Session 2 (Vincenzo VERGIANI, chair) 1:30-2:00 Takanobu TAKAHASHI ?Is clearing or plowing equal to killing? Tamil culture and the spread of Jainism in Tamilnadu? 2:00-2:30 K. Nachimuthu ?Negotiating Tamil-Sanskrit Contacts: Engagements by Tamil Grammarians? 2:30-3:00 Charlotte SCHMID (read by Dominic GOODALL) ?The contribution of Tamil literature to K???a?s figure in Sanskrit texts: the case of the ka??u in Cilappatik?ram 17? 3:00-3:30 Discussion Coffee (3:30-4:00) Session 3 (Daud ALI, chair) 4:00-4:30 Timothy LUBIN ?Legal Diglossia in Medieval Tamilnadu? 4:30-5:00 Emmanuel FRANCIS ?The Praise of the King in Tamil and Sanskrit during the Pallava Period? 5:00-5:30 Leslie ORR ?Words for Worship: Tamil and Sanskrit in Medieval Temple Inscriptions? 5:30-6:15 Discussion Saturday 23 May Coffee (9:00-9:30 ) Session 4 (Eivind KAHRS, chair) 9:30-10:00 Vincenzo VERGIANI ?The adoption of Bhart?hari?s classification of karman in C???varaiyar?s commentary on the Tolk?ppiyam? 10:00-10:30 Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD ?The ?a? pratyaya in V?rac??iyam and Y?pparu?kalavirutti and their sources: a tentative chronology? 10:30-11:00 V. S. RAJAM ?Mapping and Integrating Traditions Through Poetry and Grammar? 11:00-11:45 Discussion Lunch (12:00-1:30) Session 5 (Whitney COX, chair) 1:30-2:00 David SHULMAN ?A (Sanskrit?) Theory of the Imagination from Sixteenth-century Senji? 2:00-2:30 Rich FREEMAN ?Caught in Translation: Kerala Ma?iprav?lam, from Tamil through Sanskrit? 2:30-3:00 Discussion Coffee (3:00-3:30) Roundtable (David WASHBROOK, chair, 3:30-6:00) B. D. CHATTOPADHYAYA A. R. VENKATACHALAPATHY Eivind KAHRS Dominic GOODALL 6:00 Concluding remarks -- Dr. Whitney Cox Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG From jemhouben at GMAIL.COM Fri May 15 23:49:31 2009 From: jemhouben at GMAIL.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 01:49:31 +0200 Subject: Syntax of Dative In-Reply-To: <3AF9B038A6B07641B36C799ED4EBB0D70466E1BB42@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227086214.23782.3040427130044206811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1910 Lines: 47 Dear Madhav, Whether shift or variation, assuming you have seen Delbr?ck Altindische Syntax, Speyer Sanskrit Syntax and Speyer Vedic Syntax, I think that the following two publications might be useful (even though they focus on the Vedic dative they refer to cases beyond Vedic as well): E.W. Hopkins The Vedic Dative Reconsidered in Transactions and Proc. of the Am. Phil. Ass. vol. 37 (1937): 87-120; J. Gonda The Unity of the Vedic Dative (with ref. to discussions by Debrunner, Whitney, Renou etc.) repr. in Selected Studies vol. on Indo-European Linguistics, 141ff. Also useful may be Oberlies' Grammar of Epic Sanskrit p. 331f and Brockington The Sanskrit Epics p. 87f. The main shift may have been not so much in the use of the dative but in the interpretation of dhiimahi as form of dhii (cf. Whitney's misplaced judgment in his Roots ... p. 83 which nevertheless captures the shift involved: "The form dhiimahi belongs here [under dhii/diidhii] only as thus used later, with a false apprehension of its proper meaning.") Jan On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 7:35 PM, Deshpande, Madhav wrote: > Dear Colleagues > > I am looking for some scholarly discussion on the use of datives with verbs > like vidmahe and dh?mahi found in the late G?yatr?s as found in texts like > the Taittir?iya Ara?yaka, e.g. ?????????? ??????? ???????? ????? / ????? > ?????? ?????????? // The use of dative in these late G?yatr?s contrasts > with the accusative in the old G?yatr? : ??? ?????????????? ????? ?????? > ?????. I am looking for any scholarly discussion of this shift (?). Didn't > see anything in Speyer/Speijer. Best, > > Madhav M. Deshpande > -- Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d Etudes ? Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite ? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, SHP, A la Sorbonne,45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. JEMHouben at gmail.com www.jyotistoma.nl From slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU Sat May 16 10:56:27 2009 From: slindqui at MAIL.SMU.EDU (Steven Lindquist) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 05:56:27 -0500 Subject: amrita In-Reply-To: <000001c9d60a$9cabc690$d60353b0$@nl> Message-ID: <161227086224.23782.834460480673927586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 856 Lines: 33 Dear Victor, On "immortality," see Olivelle's "Am?t?: Women and Indian Technologies of Immortality," Journal of Indian Philosophy. 25: 427? 49, 1997. Free download at: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/olivelle/articles.htm See esp. Thieme's "Ambrosia" (cited within). My best, Steven On May 16, 2009, at 4:42 AM, victor van bijlert wrote: > Dear friends, > > I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word > amrita > does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. > Can anyone > provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also > looking > for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta > (Rig Veda > 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit > literature: > Epics, Puranas. > > With many greetings and many thanks > > Victor van Bijlert From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Sat May 16 11:26:52 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 07:26:52 -0400 Subject: amrita In-Reply-To: <6E8EE938-B078-43F9-AA1A-A67DF300089E@mail.smu.edu> Message-ID: <161227086232.23782.7713834755595811398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1495 Lines: 54 Dear List, The Thieme article is found in his *Studien zur indogermanischen Wortkunde und Religionsgeschichte* [Berichte ueber die Verhandlkungen der Saechsischen Akad. d. Wissenschaften zu Leipzig. Phil.-Hist. Klasse, Band 98, Heft 5] 1952. It is reprinted in the Weg d. Forschung series Band CLXIX 1970 [Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft]. The article does not deny that amrta can mean 'immortal.' It argues that it can also mean 'having, giving life' ['lebendig, Lebenskraft spendend'], citing many Vedic passages. I hope this helps. George Thompson Steven Lindquist wrote: > Dear Victor, > > On "immortality," see Olivelle's "Am?t?: Women and Indian > Technologies of Immortality," Journal of Indian Philosophy. 25: 427? > 49, 1997. Free download at: > http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/olivelle/articles.htm See esp. > Thieme's "Ambrosia" (cited within). > > My best, > > Steven > > On May 16, 2009, at 4:42 AM, victor van bijlert wrote: > >> Dear friends, >> >> I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word >> amrita >> does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. >> Can anyone >> provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also >> looking >> for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta >> (Rig Veda >> 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit >> literature: >> Epics, Puranas. >> >> With many greetings and many thanks >> >> Victor van Bijlert > > > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Sat May 16 09:42:22 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van bijlert) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 11:42:22 +0200 Subject: amrita Message-ID: <161227086217.23782.1316946837948814433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 467 Lines: 15 Dear friends, I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word amrita does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. Can anyone provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also looking for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta (Rig Veda 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit literature: Epics, Puranas. With many greetings and many thanks Victor van Bijlert From j.jurewicz at UW.EDU.PL Sat May 16 11:20:38 2009 From: j.jurewicz at UW.EDU.PL (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 13:20:38 +0200 Subject: amrita In-Reply-To: <000001c9d60a$9cabc690$d60353b0$@nl> Message-ID: <161227086229.23782.3664651629139327999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 901 Lines: 32 Two Atharvavedic hymns, 10.2 and 11.8 elaborate the homology between the human body and the cosmos (see e.g. F. Edgerton, The Beginnings of Indian Philosophy, London, George Allen & Unwin Ltd, 1965, pp. 88, 107). Best Joanna Jurewicz victor van bijlert pisze: > Dear friends, > > I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word amrita > does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. Can anyone > provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also looking > for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta (Rig Veda > 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit literature: > Epics, Puranas. > > With many greetings and many thanks > > Victor van Bijlert > -- Joanna Jurewicz, dr hab. Warsaw University Professor Faculty of Oriental Studies ul. Krakowskie Przedmiescie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa Poland From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Sat May 16 18:49:49 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 14:49:49 -0400 Subject: Syntax of Dative In-Reply-To: <3AF9B038A6B07641B36C799ED4EBB0D70466E1BB42@ITCS-ECLS-1-VS3.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227086236.23782.8744721052657717908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1883 Lines: 39 Dear Madhav, My first impulse was to see the influence of the frequent collocation of namas + god-name in the dative. I see now that Delbrueck discusses namas, as well as other formulas of respect or invocation, such as svaahaa, svadhaa, vaSaT [p. 145 "Dativ bei Substantiven"] (sorry for using the now obsolete Harvard-Kyoto here, but for me the trouble to get the correct diacritics into an email is still too great). dhaa- in the sense 'to offer, lend' frequently takes the dative, of course. As for dhiimahi, the 'later tradition' which takes it from dhii- instead of dhaa- is I think triggered by the RV Gayatri itself, since dhiimahi is immediately followed by dhiyas there. I take this to be a pun in the mind of the Rsi, rather than an etymology. When the Gayatri is quoted in the TS 1.5.3, Keith prefers to translate dhiimahi as "we meditate" ['in the later priestly sense']. If he is right in doing so, then this quotation may indicate that the etymological sense of dhiimahi from dhaa- may already be lost. As for the dative with other verbs, vid- is cited by Delbrueck (umlauts are also too time-consuming) as taking a dative when it has a sense 'to provide for' [thus semantically close to 'give']. I hope this helps, and I also would be interested to hear from others. George Deshpande, Madhav wrote: >Dear Colleagues > >I am looking for some scholarly discussion on the use of datives with verbs like vidmahe and dh?mahi found in the late G?yatr?s as found in texts like the Taittir?iya Ara?yaka, e.g. ?????????? ??????? ???????? ????? / ????? ?????? ?????????? // The use of dative in these late G?yatr?s contrasts with the accusative in the old G?yatr? : ??? ?????????????? ????? ?????? ?????. I am looking for any scholarly discussion of this shift (?). Didn't see anything in Speyer/Speijer. Best, > >Madhav M. Deshpande > > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat May 16 10:22:03 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 16 May 09 15:52:03 +0530 Subject: amrita Message-ID: <161227086221.23782.9348960077591963780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1335 Lines: 32 Dear Professor Bijlert, It will take time to search so that,in a hurry,I?can give just a hint that you may yourself check. In the hymns to the fathers, AV?.18 (AVP.18.56-82)it is prayed that the departed one is placed in am.rtatva. Since long life is absurd here the intended meaning seems to be 'immortality'. The text of the Asiatic Society?AVP version of the hymns to the fathers has been printed but at present is in fascicules. It will come out in no time when I furnish them with an Introduction. I am in it. Best DB --- On Sat, 16/5/09, victor van bijlert wrote: From: victor van bijlert Subject: amrita To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Saturday, 16 May, 2009, 3:12 PM Dear friends, I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word amrita does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. Can anyone provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also looking for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta (Rig Veda 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit literature: Epics, Puranas. With many greetings and many thanks Victor van Bijlert Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun May 17 14:28:10 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 07:28:10 -0700 Subject: Sardulavikridita metrics In-Reply-To: <1528222A-4382-420F-822D-00509A2B1A32@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086249.23782.1882437310720919043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1297 Lines: 43 Ictus on syllables 3, 6, 8, 12, 14, 17, 19 --- you can hear a brief example of the traditional way it is recited at http:// pantheon.yale.edu/~asd49/sound/ For the theory, see Ashwini Deo, The metrical organization of classical Sanskrit verse, Journal of Linguistics 43.63-114 (2007). This is really essential reading for anyone interested in Sanskrit metrics. On Deo's analysis, ??rd?lavikr??ita is one of the rhythmically most complex and interesting meters (p. 109). Like some other popular meters, such as Mand?kr?nt?, it has seven feet that shift from tetramoraic to pentamoraic at the caesura, with the final foot catalectic, in addition (unlike Mand?kr?nt?) also anacrusis in the first foot. Paul Kiparsky On May 17, 2009, at 4:10 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: > Dear Indology list members, > > Is there more to know about the ??rd?lavikr??ita meter than > ma-sa-ja-sa-ta-ta-ga (12-7 x 4 lines)? Are any vipulas allowed? > In a manuscript I am working on I have a verse with 5 lines in > ??rd?lavikr??ita. Is this common? (I have never seen it > before) If there is a resource with extended discussion of this > meter can you direct me to it? > > Sincerely, > > Michael Slouber > PhD Candidate > South and Southeast Asian Studies > UC Berkeley From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Sun May 17 11:20:21 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van bijlert) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 13:20:21 +0200 Subject: amrita In-Reply-To: <000001c9d60a$9cabc690$d60353b0$@nl> Message-ID: <161227086243.23782.6189927579299034316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 869 Lines: 26 So far many thanks for the references. They were very helpful. One last question. Does anyone know about digital versions of the Thieme article? Many thanks again and warm greetings Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens victor van bijlert Verzonden: zaterdag 16 mei 2009 11:42 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: amrita Dear friends, I remember vaguely to have learned that in Vedic Sanskrit the word amrita does not mean immortality but rather something like ' long life'. Can anyone provide me with some references to articles on this word? I am also looking for parallels in other Vedic texts of the so-called Purusha-sukta (Rig Veda 10.90).Or perhaps adaptations of this hymn in later Sanskrit literature: Epics, Puranas. With many greetings and many thanks Victor van Bijlert From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Sun May 17 12:21:15 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van bijlert) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 14:21:15 +0200 Subject: amrita In-Reply-To: <000001c9d60a$9cabc690$d60353b0$@nl> Message-ID: <161227086246.23782.666761053948937502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 398 Lines: 11 Dear friends, As an extra favour I would like to ask the following. The Purusha-sukta mentions the four varnas, seemingly for the first time in the Rig Veda. Are there other references in the Rig Veda to the four varnas by name, or perhaps to any of these four separately? And what about the four varnas in the other Veda-Samhitas or the Brahmanas and Aranyakas? Thanks again Victor van Bijlert From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sun May 17 19:09:14 2009 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 15:09:14 -0400 Subject: Syntax of Dative In-Reply-To: <4A0F0ACD.9020407@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227086257.23782.15454150459133910195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2234 Lines: 48 Thanks to all those who sent suggestions on the syntax of dative with vidmahe and dh?mahi on and off this list. Madhav Deshpande ________________________________________ From: Indology [INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of George Thompson [gthomgt at COMCAST.NET] Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:49 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Syntax of Dative Dear Madhav, My first impulse was to see the influence of the frequent collocation of namas + god-name in the dative. I see now that Delbrueck discusses namas, as well as other formulas of respect or invocation, such as svaahaa, svadhaa, vaSaT [p. 145 "Dativ bei Substantiven"] (sorry for using the now obsolete Harvard-Kyoto here, but for me the trouble to get the correct diacritics into an email is still too great). dhaa- in the sense 'to offer, lend' frequently takes the dative, of course. As for dhiimahi, the 'later tradition' which takes it from dhii- instead of dhaa- is I think triggered by the RV Gayatri itself, since dhiimahi is immediately followed by dhiyas there. I take this to be a pun in the mind of the Rsi, rather than an etymology. When the Gayatri is quoted in the TS 1.5.3, Keith prefers to translate dhiimahi as "we meditate" ['in the later priestly sense']. If he is right in doing so, then this quotation may indicate that the etymological sense of dhiimahi from dhaa- may already be lost. As for the dative with other verbs, vid- is cited by Delbrueck (umlauts are also too time-consuming) as taking a dative when it has a sense 'to provide for' [thus semantically close to 'give']. I hope this helps, and I also would be interested to hear from others. George Deshpande, Madhav wrote: >Dear Colleagues > >I am looking for some scholarly discussion on the use of datives with verbs like vidmahe and dh?mahi found in the late G?yatr?s as found in texts like the Taittir?iya Ara?yaka, e.g. ?????????? ??????? ???????? ????? / ????? ?????? ?????????? // The use of dative in these late G?yatr?s contrasts with the accusative in the old G?yatr? : ??? ?????????????? ????? ?????? ?????. I am looking for any scholarly discussion of this shift (?). Didn't see anything in Speyer/Speijer. Best, > >Madhav M. Deshpande > > From mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU Sun May 17 11:10:50 2009 From: mjslouber at BERKELEY.EDU (Michael Slouber) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 16:55:50 +0545 Subject: Sardulavikridita metrics Message-ID: <161227086240.23782.10514295338321289500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 476 Lines: 18 Dear Indology list members, Is there more to know about the ??rd?lavikr??ita meter than ma- sa-ja-sa-ta-ta-ga (12-7 x 4 lines)? Are any vipulas allowed? In a manuscript I am working on I have a verse with 5 lines in ??rd?lavikr??ita. Is this common? (I have never seen it before) If there is a resource with extended discussion of this meter can you direct me to it? Sincerely, Michael Slouber PhD Candidate South and Southeast Asian Studies UC Berkeley From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun May 17 16:41:17 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 17 May 09 22:11:17 +0530 Subject: amrita Message-ID: <161227086254.23782.17859209918936470906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1405 Lines: 29 The Arya-Sudra division is apparent even in the early part of the Rgveda but the four caste-system seems to have crystallised only in the late 10.90. Brahmins as a caste, Rajanyas, Vis's and Sudras are known to the AV. How far the occurrence of the terms reflect the existence of a rigid four caste system may be debated.??The other Vedas? know the four caste system. According to Kuiper ennobling was common with the early Rgvedic Aryans. That must not have been congenial for the growth of the rigid four caste system. This may be partly true of the early part of the Atharvaveda. These matters?require more search than that has been made. Best for all DB --- On Sun, 17/5/09, victor van bijlert wrote: From: victor van bijlert Subject: Re: amrita To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 17 May, 2009, 5:51 PM Dear friends, As an extra favour I would like to ask the following. The Purusha-sukta mentions the four varnas, seemingly for the first time in the Rig Veda. Are there other references in the Rig Veda to the four varnas by name, or perhaps to any of these four separately? And what about the four varnas in the other Veda-Samhitas or the Brahmanas and Aranyakas? Thanks again Victor van Bijlert Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 18 02:44:19 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 18 May 09 02:44:19 +0000 Subject: Sardulavikridita metrics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086262.23782.4598912509533833632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2782 Lines: 71 It is also important to note that there seems to be a strong tendency for placement of a ceasura after the fourth ga?a. The ma?gala in ?r?dhara's Karmapa?jik?, whose critical edition is currently being prepared by Dr. S. Sumant (Pune) and myself, also presents an unexpected number of ??rd?lavikr??ita p?das: just two of them, whereafter the verse-form seems to become something that is meant to be Sragdhar?. I would be grateful references to similarly (un)structured ma?galas. I paste below the text of ?r?dhara's ma?gala as we currently suppose it must be edited. Best greetings, Arlo Griffiths ---- ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???????? ???????????? ??????????? ????????????????? ? ???????????????????????? ???? ?????? ????????? ????????? ????? ?????????????????????????????? ? ????????????????????????????? ????????????????? ???????? ??????????????? ??????????? ??????? ???? ? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ???????? ??????? ???? ??????????? ??????????? ????? ? ???????????? ???? ?????????????? ??????? ? ???????????? ??? ??????? ????????????? ? ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 07:28:10 -0700 > From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU > Subject: Re: Sardulavikridita metrics > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Ictus on syllables 3, 6, 8, 12, 14, 17, 19 --- you can hear a brief > example of the traditional way it is recited at http:// > pantheon.yale.edu/~asd49/sound/ > > For the theory, see Ashwini Deo, The metrical organization of > classical Sanskrit verse, Journal of Linguistics 43.63-114 (2007). > This is really essential reading for anyone interested in Sanskrit > metrics. > > On Deo's analysis, ??rd?lavikr??ita is one of the rhythmically > most complex and interesting meters (p. 109). Like some other > popular meters, such as Mand?kr?nt?, it has seven feet that shift > from tetramoraic to pentamoraic at the caesura, with the final foot > catalectic, in addition (unlike Mand?kr?nt?) also anacrusis in the > first foot. > > Paul Kiparsky > > > > > > > On May 17, 2009, at 4:10 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: > >> Dear Indology list members, >> >> Is there more to know about the ??rd?lavikr??ita meter than >> ma-sa-ja-sa-ta-ta-ga (12-7 x 4 lines)? Are any vipulas allowed? >> In a manuscript I am working on I have a verse with 5 lines in >> ??rd?lavikr??ita. Is this common? (I have never seen it >> before) If there is a resource with extended discussion of this >> meter can you direct me to it? >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Michael Slouber >> PhD Candidate >> South and Southeast Asian Studies >> UC Berkeley _________________________________________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon May 18 18:23:47 2009 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Mon, 18 May 09 11:23:47 -0700 Subject: Sardulavikridita metrics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086266.23782.7234120205606265404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4109 Lines: 124 On May 17, 2009, at 7:44 PM, Arlo Griffiths wrote: > > It is also important to note that there seems to be a strong > tendency for placement of a ceasura after the fourth ga?a. Right, after the fourth foot, which here happens to coincide with a ga?a. The ga?as of the trika system provide convenient mnemonics for the sequences of long and short syllables in a meter, but they are irrelevant to the rhythm of a line, to its foot structure, and to the placement of the caesura. These things are however revealed by formal metrical analysis, and, remarkably, they are also observed in the traditional chanting pattern. > The ma?gala in ?r?dhara's Karmapa?jik?, whose critical edition > is currently being prepared by Dr. S. Sumant (Pune) and myself, > also presents an unexpected number of ??rd?lavikr??ita p?das: > just two of them, whereafter the verse-form seems to become > something that is meant to be Sragdhar?. I would be grateful > references to similarly (un)structured ma?galas. I paste below the > text of ?r?dhara's ma?gala as we currently suppose it must be > edited. The alternation of ??rd?lavikr??ita with Sragdhar? makes sense because they have structural affinities. ??rd?lavikr??ita has seven rising feet, falling into two hemistichs divided by a caesura. The first hemistich has four tetramoraic feet (with anacrusis), the second has three pentamoraic feet (with catalexis). Mand?kr?nt? and Chitralekh? have the same 4:3 pattern of tetramoraic and pentamoraic feet, only the feet are falling rather than rising. Sragdhar? is similar except that it has an extra foot in the first hemistich (actually a problem for Deo's analysis, as she points out). Paul Kiparsky > Best greetings, > Arlo Griffiths > ---- > ????? ?? ???? ?????? > ????? ?????? ???? > ???????? > ???????????? > ??????????? > ????????????????? ? > ?????????????????????? > ?? ???? ?????? ????????? > ????????? ????? > ?????????????????????? > ???????? ? > ?????????????????????? > ??????? > ????????????????? > ???????? > ??????????????? > ??????????? ??????? > ???? ? > ?????? ?????? ???????? > ?????????? ????????? > ????? > ???????? ??????? ???? > ??????????? > ??????????? ????? ? > ???????????? ???? > ?????????????? ??????? ? > ???????????? ??? > ??????? ????????????? ? > > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 07:28:10 -0700 >> From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU >> Subject: Re: Sardulavikridita metrics >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> >> Ictus on syllables 3, 6, 8, 12, 14, 17, 19 --- you can hear a brief >> example of the traditional way it is recited at http:// >> pantheon.yale.edu/~asd49/sound/ >> >> For the theory, see Ashwini Deo, The metrical organization of >> classical Sanskrit verse, Journal of Linguistics 43.63-114 (2007). >> This is really essential reading for anyone interested in Sanskrit >> metrics. >> >> On Deo's analysis, ??rd?lavikr??ita is one of the rhythmically >> most complex and interesting meters (p. 109). Like some other >> popular meters, such as Mand?kr?nt?, it has seven feet that shift >> from tetramoraic to pentamoraic at the caesura, with the final foot >> catalectic, in addition (unlike Mand?kr?nt?) also anacrusis in the >> first foot. >> >> Paul Kiparsky >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 17, 2009, at 4:10 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: >> >>> Dear Indology list members, >>> >>> Is there more to know about the ??rd?lavikr??ita meter than >>> ma-sa-ja-sa-ta-ta-ga (12-7 x 4 lines)? Are any vipulas allowed? >>> In a manuscript I am working on I have a verse with 5 lines in >>> ??rd?lavikr??ita. Is this common? (I have never seen it >>> before) If there is a resource with extended discussion of this >>> meter can you direct me to it? >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Michael Slouber >>> PhD Candidate >>> South and Southeast Asian Studies >>> UC Berkeley > > _________________________________________________________________ > See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx From acollins at GCI.NET Mon May 18 23:01:22 2009 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Mon, 18 May 09 15:01:22 -0800 Subject: Image of goddess and anthill Message-ID: <161227086270.23782.9951738905347747701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 753 Lines: 8 This is on behalf of the Archive for Research in Archetypal Symbolism (ARAS) who are looking for a high quality image to publish of an anthill associated with an Indian goddess image (I believe the goddess figure--made of mud?-- is often set in front of the anthill, which is painted in Goddess colors). I am aware that this is very old symbolism (Vedic NirRti is associated with the anthill, as I recall). If anyone is able to provide a good color photograph for publication (acknowledgement will be provided I am sure, but I don' think they can pay) I will pass it along, or you can correspond with Annmari Ronnberg directly at aras at aras.org. Background information on the image and provenance would be essential of course. Thanks, Al Collins From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Tue May 19 17:40:17 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 19 May 09 19:40:17 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086274.23782.15461564966119605813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 724 Lines: 23 Friends, Apparently, the copy of Akota Bronzes by U P Shah supposedly purchased by our library never made it into the collection, and the library has been unable to replace it. Therefore, I wonder whether someone who has it to hand would be willing to scan just a page or two for me. In particular, I am interested in the bronze apparently found on pg. 34, plates 75a-b, and the author's reading of its inscription (actually, I am only interested in the inscription, not the piece itself :-) So a scan of the inscription, if legible, and the editor's reading and translation would be great--many thanks in advance! jonathan silk -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 20 10:42:33 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 06:42:33 -0400 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086288.23782.2548538507137859505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1773 Lines: 49 You could get in touch with the director, M. L. Wadekar, or the deputy director, S. Y. Wanankar, whose email addresses are: mlwadekar at hotmail.com, syw16 at rediffmail.com. Good wishes, George Cardona -----Original Message----- >From: Dipak Bhattacharya >Sent: May 20, 2009 12:08 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! > >Dear Professor Silk, >Other sources failing, perhaps, an enquiry could be made at the Oriental Institute, Baroda or Librarian, MS University, Baroda. They took interest in U.P.Shah. The email id of the Institute are not known to me. But there are List members who could know. >Best wishes >DB > >--- On Tue, 19/5/09, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > >From: Jonathan Silk >Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Date: Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 11:10 PM > > >Friends, > >Apparently, the copy of Akota Bronzes by U P Shah supposedly purchased by >our library never made it into the collection, and the library has been >unable to replace it. Therefore, I wonder whether someone who has it to hand >would be willing to scan just a page or two for me. In particular, I am >interested in the bronze apparently found on pg. 34, plates 75a-b, and the >author's reading of its inscription (actually, I am only interested in the >inscription, not the piece itself :-) So a scan of the inscription, if >legible, and the editor's reading and translation would be great--many >thanks in advance! > >jonathan silk > >-- >J. Silk >Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden >Postbus 9515 >2300 RA Leiden >Netherlands > > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 20 04:08:57 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 09:38:57 +0530 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086277.23782.1949180684043144226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1328 Lines: 41 Dear Professor Silk, Other sources failing, perhaps, an enquiry could be made at the Oriental Institute, Baroda or Librarian, MS University, Baroda. They took interest in U.P.Shah. The email id of the Institute are not known to me. But there are List members who could know. Best wishes DB --- On Tue, 19/5/09, Jonathan Silk wrote: From: Jonathan Silk Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 11:10 PM Friends, Apparently, the copy of Akota Bronzes by U P Shah supposedly purchased by our library never made it into the collection, and the library has been unable to replace it. Therefore, I wonder whether someone who has it to hand would be willing to scan just a page or two for me. In particular, I am interested in the bronze apparently found on pg. 34, plates 75a-b, and the author's reading of its inscription (actually, I am only interested in the inscription, not the piece itself :-) So a scan of the inscription, if legible, and the editor's reading and translation would be great--many thanks in advance! jonathan silk -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 20 04:11:56 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 09:41:56 +0530 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086280.23782.10618844069494686904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1695 Lines: 54 --- On Wed, 20/5/09, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: From: Dipak Bhattacharya Subject: Re: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009, 9:38 AM Dear Professor Silk, Other sources failing, perhaps, an enquiry could be made at the Oriental Institute, Baroda or Librarian, MS University, Baroda. They took interest in U.P.Shah. The email id of the Institute?is not known to me. But there are List members who could know. Best wishes DB --- On Tue, 19/5/09, Jonathan Silk wrote: From: Jonathan Silk Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 11:10 PM Friends, Apparently, the copy of Akota Bronzes by U P Shah supposedly purchased by our library never made it into the collection, and the library has been unable to replace it. Therefore, I wonder whether someone who has it to hand would be willing to scan just a page or two for me. In particular, I am interested in the bronze apparently found on pg. 34, plates 75a-b, and the author's reading of its inscription (actually, I am only interested in the inscription, not the piece itself :-) So a scan of the inscription, if legible, and the editor's reading and translation would be great--many thanks in advance! jonathan silk -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands ? ? ? Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Wed May 20 08:30:56 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 10:30:56 +0200 Subject: SARIT update Message-ID: <161227086284.23782.1859853901600552628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 884 Lines: 33 Dear colleagues, Richard Mahoney and I are pleased to be able to report that the SARIT transcript of the A????gah?dayasa?hit? by V?gbha?a has just been released. It can be searched alongside Manu and Kau?alya through the SARIT web interface: Table of Contents :: V?gbha?a [1997], A machine-readable transcription of the A????gah?daya by V?gbha?a :: (INDOLOGY: Resources for Indological Scholarship, London, 1997) http://sarit.indology.info/newphilo/navigate.pl?indologica.3 or downloaded for off-line use: SARIT: Text Archive Downloads http://sarit.indology.info/downloads.shtml We would like to express our gratitude to Prof. R. P. Das and the late Prof. Dr Emmerick for inputting this text and making it generally available. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com From dxs163 at CASE.EDU Wed May 20 15:14:55 2009 From: dxs163 at CASE.EDU (Deepak Sarma) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 11:14:55 -0400 Subject: Who is the director of the Director of the Deccan College Post Graduate and Research Institute? In-Reply-To: <27447611.1242816153228.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227086303.23782.8603951219737046908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 559 Lines: 29 All: Who is the director of the Director of the Deccan College Post Graduate and Research Institute and what is her/ his contact info? I have searched all over the web and have had no luck at all. thanks in advance, Deepak Dr. Deepak Sarma Associate Professor of Religious Studies Associate Professor of Philosophy Asian Studies Faculty Mailing Address: Department of Religious Studies 111 Mather House 11201 Euclid Avenue Case Western Reserve University Cleveland, OH 44106-7112 office: 216-368-4790 fax: 216-368-4681 deepak.sarma at case.edu From joseph.walser at TUFTS.EDU Wed May 20 15:27:47 2009 From: joseph.walser at TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 11:27:47 -0400 Subject: Who is the director of the Director of the Deccan College Post Graduate and Research Institute? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086307.23782.5150182143057515541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 240 Lines: 16 I believe it is Aloka Parasher-Sen at University of Hyderabad. If not she would know who it is. -j -- Joseph Walser Associate Professor Department of Religion Tufts University 126 Curtis Street Medford, MA 02155 Office: 617 627-2322 From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 20 16:06:01 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 12:06:01 -0400 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086316.23782.17446054585722129996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 515 Lines: 18 Thanks, Dominik. George -----Original Message----- >From: Dominik Wujastyk >Sent: May 20, 2009 7:59 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! > >On Wed, 20 May 2009, George Cardona wrote: > >> You could get in touch with the director, M. L. Wadekar, or the deputy >> director, S. Y. Wanankar, whose email addresses are: >> mlwadekar at hotmail.com, syw16 at rediffmail.com. Good wishes, George Cardona > >small typo: that's S. Y. Wakankar. From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Wed May 20 11:59:46 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 13:59:46 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: <27447611.1242816153228.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227086292.23782.8778116928892667747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 294 Lines: 10 On Wed, 20 May 2009, George Cardona wrote: > You could get in touch with the director, M. L. Wadekar, or the deputy > director, S. Y. Wanankar, whose email addresses are: > mlwadekar at hotmail.com, syw16 at rediffmail.com. Good wishes, George Cardona small typo: that's S. Y. Wakankar. From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Wed May 20 13:16:44 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 15:16:44 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: <27447611.1242816153228.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227086298.23782.14175265389889718157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 395 Lines: 16 With thanks to all, a very kind colleague sent a scan of the few pages I need. I have not had time to study the plate carefully, but what is curious is that the scribe/engraver appears indeed to have written not deyadharma- but devadharma-. Is this a common mistake? very best thanks to all, jonathan -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed May 20 23:01:54 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 16:01:54 -0700 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086326.23782.5074391474604806974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 497 Lines: 24 Dear Jonathan, > the scribe/engraver appears indeed to have written not > deyadharma- but devadharma-. Is this a common mistake? yes, that happens. See p. 24 of: Heinrich L?ders, 1940. Zu und aus den Kharo??h??Urkunden. Acta Orientalia 18: 15?49. for three devadharmas in Ku???a?period Sanskrit inscriptions from a monastery in Mathura and one in a 10th/11th?century inscription from Bengal. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed May 20 23:21:30 2009 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 16:21:30 -0700 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Message-ID: <161227086330.23782.17803205606898278874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 858 Lines: 38 Jonathan/Stefan, Didn't Gouriswar Bhattacharya also write something about this word more recently? -- I think in a Festschrift, maybe for D.C. Sircar? Rich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Baums" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! Dear Jonathan, > the scribe/engraver appears indeed to have written not > deyadharma- but devadharma-. Is this a common mistake? yes, that happens. See p. 24 of: Heinrich L?ders, 1940. Zu und aus den Kharo??h??Urkunden. Acta Orientalia 18: 15?49. for three devadharmas in Ku???a?period Sanskrit inscriptions from a monastery in Mathura and one in a 10th/11th?century inscription from Bengal. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed May 20 23:36:03 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 16:36:03 -0700 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086333.23782.15123790370748177064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 615 Lines: 22 > Didn't Gouriswar Bhattacharya also write something about this > word more recently? Maybe this article: G. Bhattacharya, 1987. D?na ? deyadharma: donation in early Buddhist records (in Br?hm?). In: Marianne Yaldiz and Wibke Lobo, eds., Investigating Indian art: proceedings of a symposium on the development of early Buddhist and Hindu iconography held at the Museum of Indian Art Berlin in May 1986, Berlin: Museum f?r Indische Kunst (Ver?ffentlichungen des Museums f?r Indische Kunst, volume 8), pp. 39?60. S. -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE Wed May 20 15:40:41 2009 From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 17:40:41 +0200 Subject: textual sequence Message-ID: <161227086312.23782.3719523422281561469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 691 Lines: 26 Dear All, According to my experience the textual sequence in commentaries regularly is: text to be commented on (for instance a verse or list of terms), commentary on the words or terms of the preceding verse or list (prat?kas plus explanations). I now have a P?li commentary where it is exactly the other way round (prat?kas plus explanations, followed by the text from which the prat?kas are extracted). I would like to know whether this is a common feature in commentarial literature only unnoticed by me. Would be thankful for any comments, Petra ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu May 21 01:44:41 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 18:44:41 -0700 Subject: textual sequence In-Reply-To: <10EBE4E2-BF7C-4FA2-A2A9-D1C13F438F27@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227086339.23782.6303843857952551997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1541 Lines: 37 Dear Petra, in G?ndh?r? commentary manuscripts (1st c. BCE to 2nd c. CE), root verses are identified at the beginnig of commentary sections by their first p?da, and prose root texts by their first few words. This is then followed by the body of the commentary with prat?kas (usually without iti and often without any indication of their root status) interspersed. The root text is nowhere quoted in full, neither before nor after the commentary, which probably means that readers were supposed to know it by heart and just needed their memory jogged. Over on the Pali side, I think that if you look at the Niddesa, the original order is for a full quotation of a root verse to follow the commentary as you describe. Each of the commentary sections is introduced by a quotation of the first p?da of the verse in question, just like in the G?ndh?r? manuscripts. Now modern editions of the Niddesa (and recent manuscripts?) _also_ print the root verse before its commentary section, but such a double full quotation seems rather clearly secondary, and it is the full quotation after the commentary body that is syntactically linked to the preceding (by the phrase ?ten?ha bhagav? ... ?), so that is presumably the more original one of the two. One could further compare the Ud?na and similar texts, where the root verse likewise follows the explanatory prose, introduced by a linking phrase ?atha kho bhagav? ... ima? ud?na? ud?nesi ... .? All best wishes, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Thu May 21 01:45:21 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 18:45:21 -0700 Subject: Machine-readable version of the Mahabharata and Prof. Daniel Ingalls Message-ID: <161227086343.23782.14750174310288634575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2106 Lines: 44 I just received the following note from Dan Ingalls, Jr., the son of Prof. Ingalls. > I recently transcribed a tape of a talk my father and I gave (a > quarter of a century ago ;-), and got interested again in the topic > of producing a machine-readable version of the Mahabharata. We > dropped the project back in 1980 because it seemed like a lot of > work, and it wasn't clear that it made more sense to pay for > technology than to pay real people who needed jobs to do the work. > > However I still have an unbound copy of the Bandarkar edition, I > know some people at Google who might be willing to do the scanning > (I don't know this for sure), and on todays machines the processing > would not be a huge amount of work. I think my modest Macintosh > could probably do a page a second. > > My question to you is this: Has this already been done, by hand or > otherwise and, if not, is it still something that would be of value? > A side-effect of reviving the project would be to dust off my tools > and make them available to other workers in the field. My programs > were all written in my own language (Smalltalk) that only ran on > special hardware at the time, but there is now an open-source > version that runs on just about every computer and operating system. I am posting this (with Dan's permission) for comments. My own feeling is that if Dan has an unbound copy, he could run it through a scanning machine and make available a graphic version -- surely the BORS edition of the MBh is one of the great achievements of 20th century scholarship in any field. I don't know whether it is still under copyright. As far as scanning it goes, I think the wiggly lines under many words would pose a problem -- and it would be almost impossible to scan the apparatus criticus, which is of course a vital part of the work. But with Dan's fluency in smalltalk, perhaps these issues could be overcome. For anyone interested in seeing Prof. Ingalls giving a lecture in 1980 on this project, see http://vimeo.com/4714623 George Hart From adheesh at OCF.BERKELEY.EDU Thu May 21 02:01:54 2009 From: adheesh at OCF.BERKELEY.EDU (Adheesh Sathaye) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 19:01:54 -0700 Subject: Machine-readable version of the Mahabharata and Prof. Daniel Ingalls In-Reply-To: <3B1560BE-E155-4E14-B244-C00D2866D00A@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227086346.23782.14356696001446416754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2999 Lines: 75 Dear George et al, I imagine the Tokunaga/Smith electronic version of the MBH (http://bombay.indology.info/mahabharata/statement.html ) is sufficient for most basic scholarly purposes? it contains many of the supplementary ("starred")passages, though not all of the variant readings, I believe. There was some controversy during its editing at BORI which others on the list might be better equipped to discuss. But as of now, this e- text is freely available. The Critical Edition itself is still under copyright in India, and BORI still actively sells copies--so I would strongly advise against scanning a graphic version without seeking permission. All best wishes, Adheesh ---- Adheesh Sathaye Department of Asian Studies University of British Columbia On May 20, 2009, at 6:45 PM, George Hart wrote: > I just received the following note from Dan Ingalls, Jr., the son of > Prof. Ingalls. > >> I recently transcribed a tape of a talk my father and I gave (a >> quarter of a century ago ;-), and got interested again in the topic >> of producing a machine-readable version of the Mahabharata. We >> dropped the project back in 1980 because it seemed like a lot of >> work, and it wasn't clear that it made more sense to pay for >> technology than to pay real people who needed jobs to do the work. >> >> However I still have an unbound copy of the Bandarkar edition, I >> know some people at Google who might be willing to do the scanning >> (I don't know this for sure), and on todays machines the processing >> would not be a huge amount of work. I think my modest Macintosh >> could probably do a page a second. >> >> My question to you is this: Has this already been done, by hand or >> otherwise and, if not, is it still something that would be of >> value? A side-effect of reviving the project would be to dust off >> my tools and make them available to other workers in the field. My >> programs were all written in my own language (Smalltalk) that only >> ran on special hardware at the time, but there is now an open- >> source version that runs on just about every computer and operating >> system. > > I am posting this (with Dan's permission) for comments. My own > feeling is that if Dan has an unbound copy, he could run it through > a scanning machine and make available a graphic version -- surely > the BORS edition of the MBh is one of the great achievements of 20th > century scholarship in any field. I don't know whether it is still > under copyright. As far as scanning it goes, I think the wiggly > lines under many words would pose a problem -- and it would be > almost impossible to scan the apparatus criticus, which is of course > a vital part of the work. But with Dan's fluency in smalltalk, > perhaps these issues could be overcome. > > For anyone interested in seeing Prof. Ingalls giving a lecture in > 1980 on this project, see > > http://vimeo.com/4714623 > > George Hart > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 20 16:09:36 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 21:39:36 +0530 Subject: textual sequence Message-ID: <161227086319.23782.8765202870895575222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1444 Lines: 35 It is difficult to say without examining the passages concerned. But there is a regular practice of indicating the?section dealt with at the end of the discourse. See any? commentariy?on the Amarako.sa, (say,Bh?nuji D?k.sita) on any entry end eg., pa?ca ?aileyasya ?il?jita iti khy?tasya II.122,123a. But it is? not being claimed that the same is the case with the Pali commentary. Please indicate if?that practice is relevant DB --- On Wed, 20/5/09, petra kieffer-P?lz wrote: From: petra kieffer-P?lz Subject: textual sequence To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009, 9:10 PM Dear All, According to my experience the textual sequence in commentaries regularly is: text to be commented on (for instance a verse or list of terms), commentary on the words or terms of the preceding verse or list (prat?kas plus explanations). I now have a P?li commentary where it is exactly the other way round (prat?kas plus explanations, followed by the text from which the prat?kas are extracted). I would like to know whether this is? a common feature in commentarial literature only unnoticed by me. Would be thankful for any comments, Petra ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From pkoskikallio at GMAIL.COM Wed May 20 18:57:11 2009 From: pkoskikallio at GMAIL.COM (Petteri Koskikallio) Date: Wed, 20 May 09 21:57:11 +0300 Subject: The 2nd Prakrit Summer School Message-ID: <161227086322.23782.17482093675448580903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 321 Lines: 16 Just a reminder for those interested in introductory course in Jaina-Maharastri. The 2nd Prakrit Summer School will be held in W?rzburg in August 17-28, 2009. Please note that the deadline for applications is June 15. http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/prakrit_summer_school/ Best wishes, Petteri Koskikallio From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu May 21 07:52:35 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 00:52:35 -0700 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086359.23782.18171078223386017059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 953 Lines: 32 Dear Jonathan, the G?ndh?r? form devasama? occurs in line 11 of Se?avarma?s reliquary inscription, see here: http://ebmp.org/a_inscription.php?catid=CKI0249 In his 1986 edition of this inscription (p. 280), Rich gives some further references. (Von Hin?ber does not comment on this form in his 2003 edition of Se?avarma.) For the apparently Eastern sound change of intervocalic y to v (reflected in Pali ?vuso, t?vati?sa, etc.) that may be operative here see von Hin?ber, ?lteres Mittelindisch, ? 214. This word also occurs contracted to desama- in the Taxila silver scroll: http://ebmp.org/a_inscription.php?catid=CKI0060 and elsewhere, so at least in the Northwestern parts the identity of the first part of the compound appears to have become unclear fairly early on, making possible the (presumably) folk etymology connecting it with deva?. Best wishes, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Thu May 21 02:40:19 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 08:10:19 +0530 Subject: textual sequence Message-ID: <161227086349.23782.12954091056336933841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1942 Lines: 53 The g?th? coming at the end?has remained?a feature of the J?takas in general. DB? --- On Thu, 21/5/09, Stefan Baums wrote: From: Stefan Baums Subject: Re: textual sequence To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Thursday, 21 May, 2009, 7:14 AM Dear Petra, in G?ndh?r? commentary manuscripts (1st c. BCE to 2nd c. CE), root verses are identified at the beginnig of commentary sections by their first p?da, and prose root texts by their first few words. This is then followed by the body of the commentary with prat?kas (usually without iti and often without any indication of their root status) interspersed. The root text is nowhere quoted in full, neither before nor after the commentary, which probably means that readers were supposed to know it by heart and just needed their memory jogged. Over on the Pali side, I think that if you look at the Niddesa, the original order is for a full quotation of a root verse to follow the commentary as you describe. Each of the commentary sections is introduced by a quotation of the first p?da of the verse in question, just like in the G?ndh?r? manuscripts. Now modern editions of the Niddesa (and recent manuscripts?) _also_ print the root verse before its commentary section, but such a double full quotation seems rather clearly secondary, and it is the full quotation after the commentary body that is syntactically linked to the preceding (by the phrase ?ten?ha bhagav? ... ?), so that is presumably the more original one of the two. One could further compare the Ud?na and similar texts, where the root verse likewise follows the explanatory prose, introduced by a linking phrase ?atha kho bhagav? ... ima? ud?na? ud?nesi ... .? All best wishes, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Thu May 21 07:20:37 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 09:20:37 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086352.23782.364850275403499294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1712 Lines: 60 I confess that it occured to me only too late of course to check Sircar first of all--rather stupid, sorry! But the context itself as well as othe reference cited by Stefan make me strongly suspect that the answer should be sought elsewhere (that is, I don't think we should be disposed to take deva as = deva). A graphic error is hardly possible, I should think; is there a phonological explanation? Again, I apologize but our library is closed until next week... many thanks jonathan 2009/5/21 Antonio Ferreira-Jardim > I'm not sure if this is helpful or not but Sircar's Indian > Epigraphical Glossary sv. "devadharma" states: > > "deva-dharma (Ep. Ind., Vol. XXVIII, p. 144), same as > deya-dharma when the gift was the image of a god." > > Kind regards, > > Antonio Ferreira-Jardim > University of Queensland > > > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Stefan Baums > wrote: > >> Didn't Gouriswar Bhattacharya also write something about this > >> word more recently? > > > > Maybe this article: > > > > G. Bhattacharya, 1987. D?na - deyadharma: donation in early > > Buddhist records (in Br?hm?). In: Marianne Yaldiz and Wibke > > Lobo, eds., Investigating Indian art: proceedings of a > > symposium on the development of early Buddhist and Hindu > > iconography held at the Museum of Indian Art Berlin in May > > 1986, Berlin: Museum f?r Indische Kunst (Ver?ffentlichungen des > > Museums f?r Indische Kunst, volume 8), pp. 39-60. > > > > S. > > > > -- > > Stefan Baums > > Asian Languages and Literature > > University of Washington > > > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From cbpicron at GMX.DE Thu May 21 07:35:43 2009 From: cbpicron at GMX.DE (Claudine Bautze-Picron) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 09:35:43 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086355.23782.12226832851120632244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2346 Lines: 71 Dear Jonathan, Check indeed the paper by G. Bhattacharya mentioned before (down this mail), it is also republished in "Essays on Buddhist, Hindu, Jain Iconography & Epigraphy", by Gouriswar Bhattacharya (Studies in Bengal Art Series N? 1, Dhaka: The International Centre for Study of Bengal Art, 2000, pp. 385-406) - see in particularly his endnote 134 (with references to Edgerton & von Hin?ber). Claudine. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Jonathan Silk Sent: Donnerstag, 21. Mai 2009 09:21 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! I confess that it occured to me only too late of course to check Sircar first of all--rather stupid, sorry! But the context itself as well as othe reference cited by Stefan make me strongly suspect that the answer should be sought elsewhere (that is, I don't think we should be disposed to take deva as = deva). A graphic error is hardly possible, I should think; is there a phonological explanation? Again, I apologize but our library is closed until next week... many thanks jonathan 2009/5/21 Antonio Ferreira-Jardim > I'm not sure if this is helpful or not but Sircar's Indian > Epigraphical Glossary sv. "devadharma" states: > > "deva-dharma (Ep. Ind., Vol. XXVIII, p. 144), same as > deya-dharma when the gift was the image of a god." > > Kind regards, > > Antonio Ferreira-Jardim > University of Queensland > > > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Stefan Baums > wrote: > >> Didn't Gouriswar Bhattacharya also write something about this > >> word more recently? > > > > Maybe this article: > > > > G. Bhattacharya, 1987. D?na - deyadharma: donation in early > > Buddhist records (in Br?hm?). In: Marianne Yaldiz and Wibke > > Lobo, eds., Investigating Indian art: proceedings of a > > symposium on the development of early Buddhist and Hindu > > iconography held at the Museum of Indian Art Berlin in May > > 1986, Berlin: Museum f?r Indische Kunst (Ver?ffentlichungen des > > Museums f?r Indische Kunst, volume 8), pp. 39-60. > > > > S. > > > > -- > > Stefan Baums > > Asian Languages and Literature > > University of Washington > > > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From antonio.jardim at GMAIL.COM Wed May 20 23:49:45 2009 From: antonio.jardim at GMAIL.COM (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 09:49:45 +1000 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: <20090520233603.GE32234@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086336.23782.16801010605668095644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1001 Lines: 36 I'm not sure if this is helpful or not but Sircar's Indian Epigraphical Glossary sv. "devadharma" states: "deva-dharma (Ep. Ind., Vol. XXVIII, p. 144), same as deya-dharma when the gift was the image of a god." Kind regards, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim University of Queensland On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Stefan Baums wrote: >> Didn't Gouriswar Bhattacharya also write something about this >> word more recently? > > Maybe this article: > > G. Bhattacharya, 1987. D?na - deyadharma: donation in early > Buddhist records (in Br?hm?). In: Marianne Yaldiz and Wibke > Lobo, eds., Investigating Indian art: proceedings of a > symposium on the development of early Buddhist and Hindu > iconography held at the Museum of Indian Art Berlin in May > 1986, Berlin: Museum f?r Indische Kunst (Ver?ffentlichungen des > Museums f?r Indische Kunst, volume 8), pp. 39-60. > > S. > > -- > Stefan Baums > Asian Languages and Literature > University of Washington > From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Thu May 21 08:01:37 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 10:01:37 +0200 Subject: Akota bronzes--a few pages please! In-Reply-To: <20090521075235.GB11875@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086362.23782.16128415216382645859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1583 Lines: 55 Thanks Stefan! (By the way, you might want to check the way the website is processing foot notes in the inscription--they're almost all note 1, it seems...) Many thanks to all; I'll follow up the references when I can get to my office and the library. (I can't help observing how a putatively very nonreligious country like the Netherlands seems to pay very special attention to holy days ....) jonathan On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Stefan Baums wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > the G?ndh?r? form devasama? occurs in line 11 of Se?avarma?s > reliquary inscription, see here: > > http://ebmp.org/a_inscription.php?catid=CKI0249 > > In his 1986 edition of this inscription (p. 280), Rich gives some > further references. (Von Hin?ber does not comment on this form in > his 2003 edition of Se?avarma.) For the apparently Eastern sound > change of intervocalic y to v (reflected in Pali ?vuso, t?vati?sa, > etc.) that may be operative here see von Hin?ber, ?lteres > Mittelindisch, ? 214. This word also occurs contracted to desama- > in the Taxila silver scroll: > > http://ebmp.org/a_inscription.php?catid=CKI0060 > > and elsewhere, so at least in the Northwestern parts the identity > of the first part of the compound appears to have become unclear > fairly early on, making possible the (presumably) folk etymology > connecting it with deva?. > > Best wishes, > Stefan > > -- > Stefan Baums > Asian Languages and Literature > University of Washington > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE Thu May 21 09:42:44 2009 From: kiepue at T-ONLINE.DE (=?utf-8?Q?petra_kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Thu, 21 May 09 11:42:44 +0200 Subject: textual sequence In-Reply-To: <20090521014441.GB4165@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086365.23782.18376635547471382226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2187 Lines: 61 Dear Stefan, thank you for your comments, especially for those on the Niddesa, etc. This seems to be comparable to the chapter headings originally also given in the end. I think this is the solution for my passage, which strictly speaking is not a commentary, but the introduction to a commentary. Thanks also to all others for their comments. Petra My description was not fully correct, because the Am 21.05.2009 um 03:44 schrieb Stefan Baums: > Dear Petra, > > in G?ndh?r? commentary manuscripts (1st c. BCE to 2nd c. CE), root > verses are identified at the beginnig of commentary sections by > their first p?da, and prose root texts by their first few > words. This is then followed by the body of the commentary with > prat?kas (usually without iti and often without any indication of > their root status) interspersed. The root text is nowhere quoted > in full, neither before nor after the commentary, which probably > means that readers were supposed to know it by heart and just > needed their memory jogged. > > Over on the Pali side, I think that if you look at the Niddesa, > the original order is for a full quotation of a root verse to > follow the commentary as you describe. Each of the commentary > sections is introduced by a quotation of the first p?da of the > verse in question, just like in the G?ndh?r? manuscripts. Now > modern editions of the Niddesa (and recent manuscripts?) _also_ > print the root verse before its commentary section, but such a > double full quotation seems rather clearly secondary, and it is > the full quotation after the commentary body that is syntactically > linked to the preceding (by the phrase ?ten?ha bhagav? ... ?), > so > that is presumably the more original one of the two. One could > further compare the Ud?na and similar texts, where the root verse > likewise follows the explanatory prose, introduced by a linking > phrase ?atha kho bhagav? ... ima? ud?na? ud?nesi ... .? > > All best wishes, > Stefan > > -- > Stefan Baums > Asian Languages and Literature > University of Washington ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sun May 24 01:06:00 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sat, 23 May 09 18:06:00 -0700 Subject: Machine-readable version of the Mahabharata and Prof. Daniel Ingalls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086368.23782.2171735240651036724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 83 Lines: 5 Thanks to everyone who responded -- I've passed on your ideas to Dan. George From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun May 24 09:44:05 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 02:44:05 -0700 Subject: On the technical term "pra t=?utf-8?Q?=C4=ABka"?= In-Reply-To: <4A1910AB.1000202@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227086394.23782.7646941346122937947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1162 Lines: 34 Dear Birgit, > the indigenous use of "prat?ka" is limited only to the words of > the root-text taken up at the very beginning of the commentary > section that is concerned with it that was my impression too, but I can?t back it up with more than MW s.v.: ?the first part (of a verse), first word Br. &c. &c.? right now. (The first p?da of a verse being what traditionally served to identify it, hence its lemma.) > are people comfortable with then using an indigenous term with > extended semantics I would rather not. What I currently do is use ?lemma quotation? for prat?ka proper and ?quotation? for other quotations. Not elegant, but I guess it could be whittled down to just ?lemma? (prat?ka) and ?quotation? (not prat?ka). What we really need, however, is a three-way distinction between (1) root-text lemma, (2) other quotation of root text material, and (3) external quotation from somewhere else than the root text. The extended use of ?prat?ka? in Western scholarship is probably partly due to the fact that it handily distinguishes (1) and (2) from (3). Cheers, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sun May 24 08:35:46 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 03:35:46 -0500 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086377.23782.9795230713609392242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 667 Lines: 22 I saw it many years ago, but I recall that my impression was that it followed a simplified version of the story-line of Saaya.na-Maadhava's Zrii-ZaNkara-Digvijaya and that, for all intents and purposes, it treated the brahmanical milieu of Kerala as not needing much social-historical adjustment (which, for all I know, may be roughly the truth). (For the flip-side of this view of brahmanism down south, there's always Anathamurthy's novel Samskara and the film Girish Karnad based on it...) Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sun May 24 09:36:30 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 04:36:30 -0500 Subject: On the technical term "prat=?utf-8?Q?=C4=ABka"?= In-Reply-To: <4A1910AB.1000202@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227086389.23782.9232103981890741264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 525 Lines: 20 On the questions raised in connection with commentarial forms, it is now useful to consult Tubb and Boose's excellent _Scholastic Sanskrit: A Manual for Students_, esp. ch. 10. Pratiika is defined on p. 152 (the index mistakenly gives 150) as just "the first word or two, of the passage in question." This seems to correspond with traditional usage. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Sun May 24 07:58:10 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 09:58:10 +0200 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227086370.23782.15249293113161498554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 732 Lines: 22 Dear Colleagues, I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) feature film in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? I confess I only watched a few minutes of it, and while there's a lot of chanting of classical texts, there is also some speaking ("conversational Sanskrit?") as well (is this the place to confess?--thank goodness for the subtitles!). I am also curious whether the film-makers tried to get the cultural contexts right.... Best regards, Jonathan Silk -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sun May 24 08:42:18 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 10:42:18 +0200 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086381.23782.17256291510422789896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1570 Lines: 39 Jonathan Silk wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) feature film > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? I confess I only > watched a few minutes of it, and while there's a lot of chanting of > classical texts, there is also some speaking ("conversational Sanskrit?") as > well (is this the place to confess?--thank goodness for the subtitles!). I > am also curious whether the film-makers tried to get the cultural contexts > right.... > > Best regards, Jonathan Silk > Jonathan, the "Encyclopedia of Indian Cinema" (Willemen/Rajadhyaksha) also has this as the first Indian film made in Sanskrit. The encyclopedia entry tells the plot, and continues: "Continuing his effort after "Hamsa Geethe" (1975) towards a brahminical revivalism, Iyer claimed to have made the film in Sanskrit to do justice to the abstraction of Shankara's philosophical thought. The film does away with the miracle scenes typical of the genre and deploys several symbolic figures (e.g. death and wisdom are both personified). The extensive musical track consists of Vedic chants. Iyer went on to make two more Saint films featuring two of Shankara's main disciples, Madhavacharya (Kannada, 1986) and Shri Ramanujacharya (Tamil, 1989). The film did not get a commercial release in India but apparently did very well in foreign markets." (p. 425) Best, Birgit From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Sun May 24 09:15:14 2009 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 11:15:14 +0200 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086384.23782.16592188511348955368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 888 Lines: 29 Am 24.05.2009 um 09:58 schrieb Jonathan Silk: > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) > feature film > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? There is a German Ph.D. thesis on this film: Mangold, Sylvia: ?di ?a?kar?c?rya? : G. V. Iyers Filmkommentar zur Religionsphilosophie ?a?karas. - Frankfurt am Main [et al.] : Lang, 1994. - XII, 248 p. - (Theion ; 4). - ISBN 3-631-47352-4 Frankfurt (Main), Univ., Diss., 1993 By the way, the complete movie is available on Google Video: URL: All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sun May 24 09:17:31 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 11:17:31 +0200 Subject: On the technical term "prat=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=ABka"?= Message-ID: <161227086386.23782.17078666878364362570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 736 Lines: 21 Dear all, the recent query by Petra Kieffer-P?lz regarding certain features of commentaries reminded me of a question I had meant to ask here for quite a while: scholars often use the technical term "prat?ka" to refer to each and every word of a root-text that a commentary picks up. This, I was once told, is inaccurate, for the indigenous use of "prat?ka" is limited only to the words of the root-text taken up at the very beginning of the commentary section that is concerned with it. Is this correct? If so, are people comfortable with then using an indigenous term with extended semantics, or would you rather prefer using an English neologism (or, say, the classicist "lemma") instead? Best regards, Birgit Kellner From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Sun May 24 10:01:50 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 12:01:50 +0200 Subject: On the technical term "pra t=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=ABka"?= In-Reply-To: <20090524094405.GA12998@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086398.23782.12089457652582147146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 535 Lines: 23 Not to complicate matters, but while Stefan suggests: What we really need, > however, is a three-way distinction between (1) root-text lemma, > (2) other quotation of root text material, and (3) external > quotation from somewhere else than the root text. Would not it be helpful to either distinguish 3 & 4, or 3a 3b, namely at least in the Buddhist case (but I imagine elsewhere too) between scriptural and ??stric quotation? Jonathan -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Sun May 24 08:04:35 2009 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Sun, 24 May 09 13:34:35 +0530 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086373.23782.1588760305151937886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1320 Lines: 42 i do not know about discssion on it. but it is not the only sankrit cinema. G.V. Aiyer the director of Adi Shankaracharya did many such things. Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya, Bhagavadgita. recent film in samskrit is something based on candragupta and made by some jaipur based director On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) feature > film > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? I confess I only > watched a few minutes of it, and while there's a lot of chanting of > classical texts, there is also some speaking ("conversational Sanskrit?") > as > well (is this the place to confess?--thank goodness for the subtitles!). I > am also curious whether the film-makers tried to get the cultural contexts > right.... > > Best regards, Jonathan Silk > -- > J. Silk > Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > Netherlands > -- Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshanas, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU Mon May 25 01:29:52 2009 From: mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Mon, 25 May 09 11:29:52 +1000 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <78D7951C-4127-4429-95B2-DE5AB466AAEF@t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227086401.23782.7093432434136786844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1333 Lines: 47 Dear all, You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney Brennan MacCallum Building A18 Sydney NSW 2006, Australia Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > > > Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html > wrapper, without the digital image of the page. But since you've > had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At least that's the way I could save some articles. Best Petra Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Mon May 25 10:28:55 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Mon, 25 May 09 12:28:55 +0200 Subject: Anyone for lexicography? Message-ID: <161227086405.23782.16797582079479436489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 230 Lines: 11 A colleague has asked me to spread the word about a new European Masters course in lexicography beginning this year. http://www.atilf.fr/atilf/divers/Master_EMLex_Nancy.pdf Dominic Goodall Ecole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon May 25 18:57:43 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 25 May 09 13:57:43 -0500 Subject: A. K. Chatterjee In-Reply-To: <20090524094405.GA12998@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086407.23782.18170709744677541121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 460 Lines: 18 I would be grateful for any information any of you may have regarding what became of Prof. A. K. Chatterjee (Benares Hindu University), noted scholar of Yogacara Buddhist philosophy, following his retirement (about 20 years ago) from BHU. with thanks in advance for your kind attention, Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Tue May 26 15:23:25 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 26 May 09 17:23:25 +0200 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital In-Reply-To: <2A050F71F50A0E4DA87B7DA81A57EE9811EDCF@EXPRSV05.mcs.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227086410.23782.17060554809132956246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1787 Lines: 66 The managers of the ZDMG digital edition website have announced that they will be providing PDF download facilities, certainly for pages, and if possible also for individual articles. It is in the pipeline. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Mon, 25 May 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > Dear all, > > You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. > > Regards > Mark > > Dr Mark Allon > Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies > University of Sydney > Brennan MacCallum Building A18 > Sydney NSW 2006, Australia > Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz > Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital > > Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > >> >> >> Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html >> wrapper, without the digital image of the page. But since you've >> had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. > > In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the > frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the > respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At > least that's the way I could save some articles. > > Best > Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > ************** > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz > Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 > 99423 Weimar > Germany > Tel. 03643/770447 > kiepue at t-online.de > From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Tue May 26 16:14:27 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Tue, 26 May 09 18:14:27 +0200 Subject: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested Message-ID: <161227086414.23782.17035798603269853855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3532 Lines: 125 The first volume with parts 1-32 of Kisari Mohan Ganguli's English translation of the Caraka-Samhita can now be downloaded from the GRETIL e-library (address see below). Volume 2 with parts 33-60 is in the pipeline, but will take some time due to the poor print quality of the original, which hampers the recognition rate of the background text of both e-books. Unfortunately, this library has never received the remaining parts (61-68) of Ganguli's translation. Would someone be so kind as to tell me from where good copies or scans can be ordered so I can eventually complete the e-book? [By the way, Ganguli's translation is often ascribed to the publisher, Avinash Chandra Kaviratna - much like Ganguli's translation of the Mahabharata, which is usually ascribed to Pratap Candra Roy.] Thanks in advance, Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Dominik Wujastyk Gesendet: Di 26.05.2009 17:23 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital The managers of the ZDMG digital edition website have announced that they will be providing PDF download facilities, certainly for pages, and if possible also for individual articles. It is in the pipeline. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Mon, 25 May 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > Dear all, > > You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. > > Regards > Mark > > Dr Mark Allon > Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies > University of Sydney > Brennan MacCallum Building A18 > Sydney NSW 2006, Australia > Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz > Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital > > Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > >> >> >> Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html >> wrapper, without the digital image of the page. But since you've >> had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. > > In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the > frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the > respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At > least that's the way I could save some articles. > > Best > Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > ************** > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz > Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 > 99423 Weimar > Germany > Tel. 03643/770447 > kiepue at t-online.de > From ingeardagum at YAHOO.CO.UK Tue May 26 20:32:10 2009 From: ingeardagum at YAHOO.CO.UK (Benjamin Slade) Date: Tue, 26 May 09 20:32:10 +0000 Subject: [live stream conference announcement] Watch ILLS 1: LOL streaming online! (29-31 May 2009) Message-ID: <161227086416.23782.12819099565697761630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2122 Lines: 54 Below is the announcement concerning the live stream of the upcoming first meeting of the Illinois Language and Linguistics Society [ILLS 1] (http://www.linguistics.uiuc.edu/ILLS). There will be three Indology-related talks: (1) 'Number Sensitive Items and Agreement: A Case from Hindi' [Archna Bhatia, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign] (2) 'The Grand Strategy of Politeness among Bengalis on Orkut' [Anupam Das, Indiana University Bloomington] (3) 'Influence of English on Hindi Embedded Relative Clauses' [Vandana Puri, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign] Please forward as appropriate. See below for announcment: --------------------------------- To researchers in linguistics, computer-mediated communication, and related fields: This coming weekend, May 29-31, 2009, the Linguistics Student Organization at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign is proud to present Illinois Language and Linguistics Society 1: Language Online. Through a partnership with ATLAS Digital Media, we are now able to offer a live stream of the conference online at http://www.linguistics.uiuc.edu/ILLS. Tune in this weekend to participate in this exciting new conference! Online participants will have the opportunity to submit questions in real time for the moderator to convey to the presenters. Please take a moment to have a look at our full program, available at our website: http://www.linguistics.uiuc.edu/ILLS Thanks, and hope to see you online (or in person?) next weekend! For more information, please don't hesitate to contact me: bslade at illinois.edu, or my co-organiser, Matt Garley: mgarley2 at illinois.edu. ------------------------------------------------- Benjamin Slade Dept. of Linguistics University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign email: bslade at illinois.edu website: http://www.jnanam.net/slade/ office: FLB 4108 office hours: M 1-3 and by appt. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ???? ?????????? ?? ?????? 'The gods love the obscure.' (?atapathabr?ma?a 6.1.1.2) From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Wed May 27 02:44:28 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 04:44:28 +0200 Subject: Pure LIght Dharani Sutra Message-ID: <161227086419.23782.6312398326510854213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 230 Lines: 11 Hi might someone know of an electronic version of the text and a translation of the Mugujeonggwang Daedaranigyeong (Pure Light Dharani Sutra) from the Bulguk-sa pagoda in Korea, the text found in 1966? Regards James Hartzell From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Wed May 27 12:09:33 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 05:09:33 -0700 Subject: Ageusia In-Reply-To: <793_1243404266_1243404266_4B157E39552741A591C2999FEDF4269B@zen> Message-ID: <161227086467.23782.16046585962346671101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 516 Lines: 18 arocaka is what I have come across in this sense. Page 87 of vol. 1 of Aayurvediiya Mahaako;sa ... by Venii-maadhava-;saastrii Jo;sii and Naaraaya.na Harii Jo;sii (Mumbai: Mahaaraastra Raajya Saahitya aa.ni Sa.msk.rti Ma.n.da.la, 1968) confirms this with several citations from Skt texts. ashok aklujkar On 5/26/09 11:06 PM, "Stephen Hodge" wrote: > Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit > term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 27 09:47:06 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 05:47:06 -0400 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086454.23782.4960276337497130744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 164 Lines: 9 Hi Stephen, I don't know whether this occurs in medical contexts, but a term for "not tasted, untasted, not enjoyed" is anasvadita (an-asvadita). Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 27 09:53:37 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 05:53:37 -0400 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086457.23782.6266250814486078003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 426 Lines: 21 Sorry -- the diacriticals disappeared: anasvadita (an-asvadita). Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Lusthaus" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:47 AM Subject: Re: Ageusia > Hi Stephen, > > I don't know whether this occurs in medical contexts, but a term for "not > tasted, untasted, not enjoyed" is anasvadita (an-asvadita). > > Dan Lusthaus > From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 27 10:22:14 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 06:22:14 -0400 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086460.23782.1965654415663708611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 201 Lines: 10 Again -- apologies. The diacriticals are there when I hit send, but not when the message comes out the other end. Not sure why. One more try... Just in case: an-AsvAdita (anasvadita) Dan Lusthaus From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Wed May 27 06:06:48 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 07:06:48 +0100 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086437.23782.10471542322316342894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 164 Lines: 10 Dear all, Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed May 27 05:43:00 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 07:43:00 +0200 Subject: AW: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested Message-ID: <161227086433.23782.8419903416983821919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 36 Lines: 10 Problem solved! Thanks R.G. From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 03:35:41 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 09:05:41 +0530 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227086422.23782.5392263866265114523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1648 Lines: 41 (For the flip-side of this view of brahmanism down south, there's always Anathamurthy's novel Samskara and the film Girish Karnad based on it...) There have been many films on this and in many Indian languages. Gora (dir. Naresh Mitra, 1930, author Tagore(1912),Bengali) is an early example. In the nineties?the Hindi version of a Kerala film/story Kayar ?was serially prsented in the TV. Satyajit Ray's Devi was made in the late fifties, as far as I remember. There are many other similar films made around 1950 particularly those on the Bengali novelist Sarat Chandra Chattopadhyay's critical novels like 'Bamuner meye'. DB --- On Sun, 24/5/09, mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Sunday, 24 May, 2009, 2:05 PM I saw it many years ago, but I recall that my impression was that it followed a simplified version of the story-line of Saaya.na-Maadhava's Zrii-ZaNkara-Digvijaya and that, for all intents and purposes, it treated the brahmanical milieu of Kerala as not needing much social-historical adjustment (which, for all I know, may be roughly the truth). (For the flip-side of this view of brahmanism down south, there's always Anathamurthy's novel Samskara and the film Girish Karnad based on it...) Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Wed May 27 07:59:00 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 09:59:00 +0200 Subject: Ageusia In-Reply-To: <4B157E39552741A591C2999FEDF4269B@zen> Message-ID: <161227086441.23782.10461553714129625174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 457 Lines: 25 I believe there's a condition called at?pti, which is a kind of inability to get satisfaction from food. -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Wed, 27 May 2009, Stephen Hodge wrote: > Dear all, > > Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit > term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 04:32:23 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 10:02:23 +0530 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital Message-ID: <161227086426.23782.10141137802127983510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2113 Lines: 65 To Mr.Mark Allon ? This is good advice. But it is not clear which type of file is meant as the 'convertee' and in which system. Are there not simpler ways of converting?word files of any system (Note Book, Wordpad, iLEAP etc, but not MS Dos) when the writer is installed in XP? One just 'Ctrl+p's and selects the pdf.option.? Are?you speaking of Mac? It may be that my question is born of ignorance. Please do not hesitate to rectify. DB --- On Mon, 25/5/09, Mark Allon wrote: From: Mark Allon Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 25 May, 2009, 6:59 AM Dear all, You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney Brennan MacCallum Building A18 Sydney NSW 2006, Australia Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > > > Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html? > wrapper, without the digital image of the page.? But since you've? > had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the? frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the? respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At? least that's the way I could save some articles. Best Petra Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 04:32:23 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 10:02:23 +0530 Subject: Zeitschriften der DMG digital Message-ID: <161227086445.23782.15426313695766094405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2112 Lines: 65 To Mr.Mark Allon ? This is good advice. But it is not clear which type of file is meant as the 'convertee' and in which system. Are there not simpler ways of converting?word files of any system (Note Book, Wordpad, iLEAP etc, but not MS Dos) when the writer is installed in XP? One just 'Ctrl+p's and selects the pdfoption.? Are?you speaking of Mac? It may be that my question is born of ignorance. Please do not hesitate to rectify. DB --- On Mon, 25/5/09, Mark Allon wrote: From: Mark Allon Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Monday, 25 May, 2009, 6:59 AM Dear all, You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney Brennan MacCallum Building A18 Sydney NSW 2006, Australia Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > > > Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html? > wrapper, without the digital image of the page.? But since you've? > had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the? frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the? respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At? least that's the way I could save some articles. Best Petra Kieffer-P?lz ************** Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 99423 Weimar Germany Tel. 03643/770447 kiepue at t-online.de Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 04:55:18 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 10:25:18 +0530 Subject: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested Message-ID: <161227086429.23782.182836852635120647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4503 Lines: 143 The premier libraries are digitalizing old publications in their possession. The Visva Bharati University at Santiniketan,WB aimed at publications dating before 1924. The task is going on. I have not found it necessary to use the digital library of the VIsva Bharati. But you may enquire at . You may, perhaps, also enquire at the National Library and the Asiatic Society , both at Kolkata. I may enquire at the last mentioned Institute. But, then, ?for any positive result?I have to be at Kolkata that may not happen before mid-June. DB --- On Tue, 26/5/09, Gruenendahl, Reinhold wrote: From: Gruenendahl, Reinhold Subject: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:44 PM The first volume with parts 1-32 of Kisari Mohan Ganguli's English translation of the Caraka-Samhita can now be downloaded from the GRETIL e-library (address see below). Volume 2 with parts 33-60 is in the pipeline, but will take some time due to the poor print quality of the original, which hampers the recognition rate of the background text of both e-books. Unfortunately, this library has never received the remaining parts (61-68) of Ganguli's translation. Would someone be so kind as to tell me from where good copies or scans can be ordered so I can eventually complete the e-book? [By the way, Ganguli's translation is often ascribed to the publisher, Avinash Chandra Kaviratna - much like Ganguli's translation of the Mahabharata, which is usually ascribed to Pratap Candra Roy.] Thanks in advance, Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Dominik Wujastyk Gesendet: Di 26.05.2009 17:23 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital The managers of the ZDMG digital edition website have announced that they will be providing PDF download facilities, certainly for pages, and if possible also for individual articles.? It is in the pipeline. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Mon, 25 May 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > Dear all, > > You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. > > Regards > Mark > > Dr Mark Allon > Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies > University of Sydney > Brennan MacCallum Building A18 > Sydney NSW 2006, Australia > Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz > Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital > > Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > >> >> >> Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html >> wrapper, without the digital image of the page.? But since you've >> had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. > > In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the > frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the > respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At > least that's the way I could save some articles. > > Best > Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > ************** > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz > Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 > 99423 Weimar > Germany > Tel. 03643/770447 > kiepue at t-online.de > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 04:55:18 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 10:25:18 +0530 Subject: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested Message-ID: <161227086448.23782.8714435192460090734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4502 Lines: 143 The premier libraries are digitalizing old publications in their possession The Visva Bharati University at Santiniketan,WB aimed at publications dating before 1924. The task is going on. I have not found it necessary to use the digital library of the VIsva Bharati. But you may enquire at . You may, perhaps, also enquire at the National Library and the Asiatic Society , both at Kolkata. I may enquire at the last mentioned Institute. But, then, ?for any positive result?I have to be at Kolkata that may not happen before mid-June. DB --- On Tue, 26/5/09, Gruenendahl, Reinhold wrote: From: Gruenendahl, Reinhold Subject: Caraka-Samhita, English translation - help requested To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 9:44 PM The first volume with parts 1-32 of Kisari Mohan Ganguli's English translation of the Caraka-Samhita can now be downloaded from the GRETIL e-library (address see below). Volume 2 with parts 33-60 is in the pipeline, but will take some time due to the poor print quality of the original, which hampers the recognition rate of the background text of both e-books. Unfortunately, this library has never received the remaining parts (61-68) of Ganguli's translation. Would someone be so kind as to tell me from where good copies or scans can be ordered so I can eventually complete the e-book? [By the way, Ganguli's translation is often ascribed to the publisher, Avinash Chandra Kaviratna - much like Ganguli's translation of the Mahabharata, which is usually ascribed to Pratap Candra Roy.] Thanks in advance, Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Dominik Wujastyk Gesendet: Di 26.05.2009 17:23 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital The managers of the ZDMG digital edition website have announced that they will be providing PDF download facilities, certainly for pages, and if possible also for individual articles.? It is in the pipeline. Best, -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk International Institute of Asian Studies http://iias.nl long term email address: wujastyk at gmail.com On Mon, 25 May 2009, Mark Allon wrote: > Dear all, > > You may already know this, but you can produce a pdf by the following method: save each page as a JPEG (right click > Save image as > JPEG), then convert these to pdfs and stitch them together. Bit time consuming, but better than nothing. > > Regards > Mark > > Dr Mark Allon > Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies > University of Sydney > Brennan MacCallum Building A18 > Sydney NSW 2006, Australia > Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of petra kieffer-P?lz > Sent: Sunday, 19 April 2009 8:01 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Zeitschriften der DMG digital > > Am 18.04.2009 um 20:08 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > >> >> >> Yes, I tried this, but what got saved on the disk was the html >> wrapper, without the digital image of the page.? But since you've >> had success, there must be some way round it on a PC (winXP) too. > > In saving a page one is asked whether one wants to save only the > frame, only the text or the whole website, etc.. The page of the > respective article is only saved if you choose "complete website". At > least that's the way I could save some articles. > > Best > Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > ************** > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz > Wilhelm-K?lz-Str. 2 > 99423 Weimar > Germany > Tel. 03643/770447 > kiepue at t-online.de > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL Wed May 27 09:17:49 2009 From: meulnbld at XS4ALL.NL (G.J. Meulenbeld) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 11:17:49 +0200 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086451.23782.15819205838921952249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 996 Lines: 40 Dear colleague, Ageusia as a distinct syndrome is found in a late ayurvedic text, the Nigha.n.turatnaakara, compiled by Vi.s.nu Vaasudeva Go.dbole and his associates (see on this text my "History of Indian medical literature", IIA, 365--368), bhaag duusraa 401: bhu~njaanasya narasyaanna.m madhuraprabh.rtiin rasaan / rasanaa yan na jaanaati rasaaj~naana.m tad ucyate // Verses on its treatment follow. The same verse on rasaaj~naana, is also found in Vallabhendra's Vaidyacintaama.ni, a text of uncertain date but much earlier (see again IIA, 481--489), chapter 10, p.171 . I hope this will help, best wishes, Jan Meulenbeld ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodge" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:06 AM Subject: Ageusia > Dear all, > > Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit > term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Wed May 27 11:22:27 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Wed, 27 May 09 16:52:27 +0530 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086463.23782.16573791240256696265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 628 Lines: 24 Local Kavir?jas of Varanasi use the term agnim?ndya or the less technical kshudh?m?ndya meaning absence of appetite DB --- On Wed, 27/5/09, Stephen Hodge wrote: From: Stephen Hodge Subject: Ageusia To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 27 May, 2009, 11:36 AM Dear all, Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 28 14:47:33 2009 From: navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM (JAGANADH GOPINADHAN) Date: Thu, 28 May 09 14:47:33 +0000 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086470.23782.10408659181138558181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1868 Lines: 57 Another Sanskrit film is "Bhagavatgita". I saw the film in 2002 on the occasion of an International Conference on Bhagavat gits held at Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala. Both films were appeared in the national television channels before 10 or 15 years. JAGANADH.G LINGUIST HDG-LTS C-DAC VELAYAMBALAM THIRUVANANTHAPURAM P-H+91 9895420624 E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com www.malayalamresourceceter.org > Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:15:14 +0200 > From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE > Subject: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Am 24.05.2009 um 09:58 schrieb Jonathan Silk: > > > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi > > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) > > feature film > > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or > > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? > > There is a German Ph.D. thesis on this film: > > Mangold, Sylvia: ?di ?a?kar?c?rya? : G. V. Iyers Filmkommentar > zur Religionsphilosophie ?a?karas. - Frankfurt am Main [et al.] : > Lang, 1994. - XII, 248 p. - (Theion ; 4). - ISBN 3-631-47352-4 > Frankfurt (Main), Univ., Diss., 1993 > > By the way, the complete movie is available on Google Video: > URL: > > All the best > Peter Wyzlic > -- > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > Abteilung f?r Indologie > Universit?t Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > 53113 Bonn _________________________________________________________________ Live Search extreme As India feels the heat of poll season, get all the info you need on the MSN News Aggregator http://news.in.msn.com/National/indiaelections2009/aggregator/default.aspx From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Thu May 28 19:32:21 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Thu, 28 May 09 15:32:21 -0400 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227086474.23782.5841801453410737010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2113 Lines: 63 -----Original Message----- >From: JAGANADH GOPINADHAN >Sent: May 28, 2009 10:47 AM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya > > >Another Sanskrit film is "Bhagavatgita". I saw the film in 2002 on the occasion of an International Conference on Bhagavat gits held at Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala. >Both films were appeared in the national television channels before 10 or 15 years. > > >JAGANADH.G >LINGUIST >HDG-LTS >C-DAC >VELAYAMBALAM >THIRUVANANTHAPURAM >P-H+91 9895420624 >E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com >http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com >www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com >www.malayalamresourceceter.org > > > >> Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:15:14 +0200 >> From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE >> Subject: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> >> Am 24.05.2009 um 09:58 schrieb Jonathan Silk: >> >> > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi >> > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) >> > feature film >> > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or >> > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? >> >> There is a German Ph.D. thesis on this film: >> >> Mangold, Sylvia: ?di ?a?kar?c?rya? : G. V. Iyers Filmkommentar >> zur Religionsphilosophie ?a?karas. - Frankfurt am Main [et al.] : >> Lang, 1994. - XII, 248 p. - (Theion ; 4). - ISBN 3-631-47352-4 >> Frankfurt (Main), Univ., Diss., 1993 >> >> By the way, the complete movie is available on Google Video: >> URL: >> >> All the best >> Peter Wyzlic >> -- >> Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften >> Abteilung f?r Indologie >> Universit?t Bonn >> Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 >> 53113 Bonn > >_________________________________________________________________ >Live Search extreme As India feels the heat of poll season, get all the info you need on the MSN News Aggregator >http://news.in.msn.com/National/indiaelections2009/aggregator/default.aspx From frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU Thu May 28 22:18:51 2009 From: frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU (Smith, Frederick M) Date: Thu, 28 May 09 17:18:51 -0500 Subject: Ageusia In-Reply-To: <0CB614EE54B7446BA5516274F01202F5@meulenbeld> Message-ID: <161227086477.23782.3126921984699510802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1380 Lines: 54 Also: arasajJataa Caraka (Suutrasthaana) 1.28.8: tatra rasaadiSu sthaaneSu prakupitaanaaM doSaaNaaM yasmin sthaane ye ye vyaadhayaH saMbhavanti taaMstaan yathaavad anuvyaakhyaasyaamaH // 1.28.9: azraddhaa caaruciz caasyavairasyam arasajJataa / hRllaaso gauravaM tandraa saaGgamardo jvarastamaH // Regards, Fred Smith On 5/27/09 4:17 AM, "G.J. Meulenbeld" wrote: Dear colleague, Ageusia as a distinct syndrome is found in a late ayurvedic text, the Nigha.n.turatnaakara, compiled by Vi.s.nu Vaasudeva Go.dbole and his associates (see on this text my "History of Indian medical literature", IIA, 365--368), bhaag duusraa 401: bhu~njaanasya narasyaanna.m madhuraprabh.rtiin rasaan / rasanaa yan na jaanaati rasaaj~naana.m tad ucyate // Verses on its treatment follow. The same verse on rasaaj~naana, is also found in Vallabhendra's Vaidyacintaama.ni, a text of uncertain date but much earlier (see again IIA, 481--489), chapter 10, p.171 . I hope this will help, best wishes, Jan Meulenbeld ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodge" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:06 AM Subject: Ageusia > Dear all, > > Does anybody familiar with Ayurvedic material know if there is a Sanskrit > term for "aguesia" ~ the inability to taste ? > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Fri May 29 02:33:56 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 28 May 09 19:33:56 -0700 Subject: Ageusia In-Reply-To: <28917_1243552011_1243552011_A9FE2F7A576B4A408058FE253DE032DF@zen> Message-ID: <161227086484.23782.13344487733970445313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1210 Lines: 27 Stephen, It would be better to share the passage with your potential helpers along with your translation of it, however tentative the translation may be. The context you have specified now suggests that a search is medical texts was unnecessary. Taste buds damaged by drinking too hot a liquid or eating too hot a morsel of food may make one loose taste, probably partially and temporarily, without generating a medical condition. Only a more extensive statement on the context coming from you, accompanied by a faithful translation of the rest of the words in the passage, will tell us if we should think of possibilities such as dagdha-jihva. ashok aklujkar On 5/28/09 4:09 PM, "Stephen Hodge" wrote: > My context specifically highlights the loss of taste > aspect. The sources (Tibetan and Chinese, as usual) I am investigating > suggest an underlying term that should comprise "burnt / parched / scorched > + lips / tongue". This most obviously suggests > vi'su.ka-jihvaa-taaluuna-ka.n.tha, but I am not sure if this also implies > the loss of taste that is required contextually. I had wondered if there > was another Skt term that could have been used here. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Thu May 28 23:09:11 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 00:09:11 +0100 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086481.23782.7819772977998562408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 745 Lines: 19 Dear all, I thank everybody who answered my query and made useful suggestions. It is interesting that there is often no clear distinction between loss of taste and loss of appetite ~ though naturally I suppose the latter does not presuppose the former. My context specifically highlights the loss of taste aspect. The sources (Tibetan and Chinese, as usual) I am investigating suggest an underlying term that should comprise "burnt / parched / scorched + lips / tongue". This most obviously suggests vi'su.ka-jihvaa-taaluuna-ka.n.tha, but I am not sure if this also implies the loss of taste that is required contextually. I had wondered if there was another Skt term that could have been used here. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From joseph.walser at TUFTS.EDU Fri May 29 13:25:10 2009 From: joseph.walser at TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 09:25:10 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086497.23782.12737876885319771995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 690 Lines: 29 How about the Prasannapada? -j Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature > has become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, > Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra > and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. > > What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been > input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I > wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk -- Joseph Walser Associate Professor Department of Religion Tufts University 126 Curtis Street Medford, MA 02155 Office: 617 627-2322 From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Fri May 29 14:00:57 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 10:00:57 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086508.23782.13520006003098979782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1069 Lines: 35 Dear Dominik and all, Is there somewhere a list which kAvyas, mahAkAvyas and dramas are accessible as e-texts? In particular, it would be very useful if all the major dramas WITh the Prakrit parts (and chAyA) could be easily accessible. Also, judging by the programmes of the last three World Sanskrit Conferences it seems to me that les belles lettres are being neglected in favour of grammar, philosophy, epics and Puranas. Best regards to all Stella Sandahl -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 29-May-09, at 8:47 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit > literature has become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, > Ramayana, Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, > dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. > > What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't > been input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e- > text? I wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > From victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL Fri May 29 08:22:29 2009 From: victorvanbijlert at KPNPLANET.NL (victor van bijlert) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 10:22:29 +0200 Subject: The Film Adi Shankaracharya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086488.23782.14890360793174927336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2294 Lines: 67 Is there also a link online to this film. I was able to download the Sankaracharya film from Google videos and watch it on the ipod. Many thanks for these interesting discussions Victor van Bijlert -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] Namens JAGANADH GOPINADHAN Verzonden: donderdag 28 mei 2009 16:48 Aan: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Onderwerp: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya Another Sanskrit film is "Bhagavatgita". I saw the film in 2002 on the occasion of an International Conference on Bhagavat gits held at Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala. Both films were appeared in the national television channels before 10 or 15 years. JAGANADH.G LINGUIST HDG-LTS C-DAC VELAYAMBALAM THIRUVANANTHAPURAM P-H+91 9895420624 E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com www.malayalamresourceceter.org > Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:15:14 +0200 > From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE > Subject: Re: The Film Adi Shankaracharya > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Am 24.05.2009 um 09:58 schrieb Jonathan Silk: > > > I've just run across, entirely by accident, the feature film Adi > > Shankaracharya, which boasts that it is the first (maybe only?) > > feature film > > in Sanskrit. Has this film been discussed somewhere by indologists, or > > others especially from the point of view of the Sanskrit? > > There is a German Ph.D. thesis on this film: > > Mangold, Sylvia: ?di ?a?kar?c?rya? : G. V. Iyers Filmkommentar > zur Religionsphilosophie ?a?karas. - Frankfurt am Main [et al.] : > Lang, 1994. - XII, 248 p. - (Theion ; 4). - ISBN 3-631-47352-4 > Frankfurt (Main), Univ., Diss., 1993 > > By the way, the complete movie is available on Google Video: > URL: > > All the best > Peter Wyzlic > -- > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > Abteilung f?r Indologie > Universit?t Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > 53113 Bonn _________________________________________________________________ Live Search extreme As India feels the heat of poll season, get all the info you need on the MSN News Aggregator http://news.in.msn.com/National/indiaelections2009/aggregator/default.aspx From navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 29 13:16:01 2009 From: navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM (JAGANADH GOPINADHAN) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 13:16:01 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit IAST data entry tool In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086494.23782.717320454400059351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 776 Lines: 30 Dear friends Which is the best tool to data entry Sanskrit text in IAST from(Unicode). e.g Text with diacritics. (A????gah?daya) Please provide the name of font and tool can be used to enter Devanagari text in the above given format. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ JAGANADH.G LINGUIST HDG-LTS C-DAC VELAYAMBALAM THIRUVANANTHAPURAM P-H+91 9895420624 E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com www.malayalamresourceceter.org _________________________________________________________________ Planning the weekend ? Here?s what is happening in your town. http://msn.asklaila.com/events/ From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Fri May 29 12:47:26 2009 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 14:47:26 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text Message-ID: <161227086491.23782.11550854300071959113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 476 Lines: 14 In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature has become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? Best, Dominik Wujastyk From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Fri May 29 13:58:31 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 15:58:31 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: <97916.95844.qm@web8606.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227086504.23782.4130729619921067636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1830 Lines: 62 Just two notes: I believe there are etexts of the Prasannapada (I have one very old one--I won't vouch for its quality), and now that we have several versions of the Pali tipitaka electronically, the value of scanning an edition like the Nalanda one is highly questionable. I mention these cases only to emphasize that if there is going to be effort put into something like this, it behooves those who will be involved to do some careful homework first. Very best, and lots of energy! jonathan On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya < dbhattacharya2004 at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > E-publications can serve their purpose the best when out-of-print/ or > difficult-to-purchase books are made available thru them. Examples > 1.The Nalanda edition of the Tripitaka in Devnagari > 2.Aryabhatiyam with Bhaskara 1 and Parameshvara > Best for all > DB > > > --- On Fri, 29/5/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > From: Dominik Wujastyk > Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Friday, 29 May, 2009, 6:17 PM > > > In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature has > become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, > Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, > Buddhist literature, much else. > > What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input > yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I wonder if we > can put together a prioritized list? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > > > > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to > http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From sellmers at GMX.DE Fri May 29 14:14:43 2009 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 16:14:43 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086512.23782.4646270818747134862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1355 Lines: 43 I agree with Stella Sandahl: dramas and k?vya, if possible accompanied by commentaries, should be among the priorities. The only list I know of is the GRETIL one. Best wishes, Sven Sellmer Am 29.05.2009 um 16:00 schrieb Stella Sandahl: > Dear Dominik and all, > Is there somewhere a list which kAvyas, mahAkAvyas and dramas are > accessible as e-texts? > In particular, it would be very useful if all the major dramas WITh > the Prakrit parts (and chAyA) could be easily accessible. > > Also, judging by the programmes of the last three World Sanskrit > Conferences it seems to me that les belles lettres are being neglected > in favour of grammar, philosophy, epics and Puranas. > Best regards to all > Stella Sandahl > > -- > Stella Sandahl > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > > > > On 29-May-09, at 8:47 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit >> literature has become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, >> Ramayana, Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, >> dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. >> >> What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't >> been input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e- >> text? I wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? >> >> Best, >> Dominik Wujastyk >> From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Fri May 29 21:51:05 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 17:51:05 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: <4CFBB50329D349BFBB8307FD01A178D0@zen> Message-ID: <161227086528.23782.1816759971138708989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 88 Lines: 8 Is Sayana online anywhere? I have looked, but have not found... George Thompson > From xadxura at GMAIL.COM Sat May 30 00:55:30 2009 From: xadxura at GMAIL.COM (Andrew Glass) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 17:55:30 -0700 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: <76c1007b0905291302w4df5da65g9760ed210e35f6b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227086532.23782.5581697013170286484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 926 Lines: 21 Based solely on the publication date, the BHSD should still be under copyright, therefore, making an etext of this work is a potential violation of copyright. With this concern in mind I wrote to Yale UP some years ago and asked for permission to create an etext. They did not reply. It may be that the copyright was transferred to Motilal, but this is just a guess based on the case of Brough's Gandhari Dharmapada. With this in mind the EBMP (www.ebmp.org) made an index to the headwords in the BHSD. It has been my intention to make this index available to the public, but I have not had time to do that yet. At least as an index we can tell whether or not a word is in BHSD. I have a number of things to do this weekend, but may have time to make this index publicly available - I will notify this list when ready. I heard some years ago that a full etext did exist but never saw any evidence of this myself. Andrew From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Fri May 29 13:46:04 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 19:16:04 +0530 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text Message-ID: <161227086500.23782.11413742797130216509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1086 Lines: 29 E-publications can serve their purpose the best when out-of-print/ or difficult-to-purchase books are made available thru them. Examples 1.The Nalanda edition of the Tripitaka in Devnagari 2.Aryabhatiyam with Bhaskara 1 and Parameshvara Best for all DB --- On Fri, 29/5/09, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Date: Friday, 29 May, 2009, 6:17 PM In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature has become available in e-text form.? Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. What next?? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text?? I wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? Best, Dominik Wujastyk Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Fri May 29 19:41:17 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 20:41:17 +0100 Subject: Ageusia Message-ID: <161227086516.23782.2127810603418003596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3707 Lines: 68 Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > It would be better to share the passage with your potential helpers. Sorry to have been unintentionally a bit cryptic. Actually, with a bit more thought, I think I have solved the problem myself. The term I was looking for may have been "?u?ka" or perhaps "sa??u?ka", used as a pun in the context, though "dagdha" is also a possibilty. Needless to say, the pun has got lost in translation. The problem was that I was not fully aware that "?u?ka" has other secondary meanings, especially as I was just looking at the more common (in Buddist texts) "vi?u?ka". The passage occurs in the Mah?yana Mah?parinirv??a-s?tra, with glosses bracketed off thus < ... >: gsol pa | sems can | tshig pa rnams ci las 'gyur lags || bka' stsal pa | gzhi gsum rtag pa mi shes pa gang yin pa de dag ni sems can | tshig par 'gyur ro || dper na mi lce tshig pa rnams kyis ro drug ste | mngar ba dang | skyur ba dang | lan tshwa'i ro dang | tsha ba dang | kha ba dang | bska ba rnams za ba na ro'i bye brag mi phyed pa de bzhin du sems can mi shes pa | lce dang | rkan dang | lkog ma tshig pa | gzhi gsum rtag par mi shes pa gang yin pa de dag ni | tshig pa zhes bya'o || "How come there are beings who are/have parched ?" "Those who do not know the Three Bases [= Three Jewels] are permanent become beings are burnt/parched. For example, humans who tongues are burnt/parched are unable to distinguish the differences between the six tastes when they eat anything sweet, sour, salty, bitter, pungent or astringent. Similarly, ignorant beings , whose tongues are burnt/parched, who do not know that the three grounds are permanent, are said to be/have "?u?ka" < tongues, palates and throats>. This is not the place to describe in detail the many peculiarities of the Tibetan version of the Mah?yana Mah?parinirv??a-s?tra, but reading this against the two Chinese versions, it is now clear to me that the Tibetan text has incorporated two glosses into the body of the text ~ which is typical for this text which had been heavily annotated several times during its transmission. Originally, I assume the text would have just read "How come there are people who are ?u?ka ?" ~ in the primary sense of "frightening, harsh" and punning secondarily as "with parched /burnt mouths" (as with pretas). First, the gloss of "tongue, plate and throat" was added in several places at an early stage and so is common to the Chinese and the Tibetan versions, and later the gloss "ma rungs pa 'jigs su rung ba" (harsh, frightening) was also added ~ but only in the Tibetan ms lineage. I would also imagine that some of the other connotations of "?u?ka", if that was the word used, are also implied here well such as "vain, useless". As a footnote to this, if they have bothered to read this far, I wonder if anybody (Jonathan, Matthew ?) has come across the expression "gzhi gsum" for the tri-ratna ? This is used consistedly by preference throughout the Mah?parinirv??a-s?tra>. Maybe I haven't read attentively / widely enough (I do try, though), but I have never seen this term used in any other Tibetan translations of Indic texts. It would be nice to know what the underlying Skt word here would have been. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Fri May 29 19:46:31 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 20:46:31 +0100 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text Message-ID: <161227086520.23782.10632475659542484221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 354 Lines: 11 Not a Devanagari text so not relevent here, but it would be *immensely* helpful if Edgerton's Dictionary of Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit could ever be made into an e-text. It would be a very big job, even with OCR and there may be problems with copyright still. Or is there a secret copy already in private circulation ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK Fri May 29 20:02:30 2009 From: wc3 at SOAS.AC.UK (Whitney Cox) Date: Fri, 29 May 09 21:02:30 +0100 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ Message-ID: <161227086524.23782.17983435369646553486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 788 Lines: 30 Even speaking as a non-Buddhologist, I would enthusiastically welcome Stephen's suggestion of an Edgerton e-text, and would be equally interested in any samizdat copy there may be. Whitney 2009/5/29 Stephen Hodge : > Not a Devanagari text so not relevent here, but it would be *immensely* > helpful if Edgerton's Dictionary of Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit could ever be > made into an e-text. ?It would be a very big job, even with OCR and there > may be problems with copyright still. ?Or is there a secret copy already in > private circulation ? > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge > -- Dr. Whitney Cox Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia, School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG From Loriliai.Biernacki at COLORADO.EDU Sat May 30 07:10:10 2009 From: Loriliai.Biernacki at COLORADO.EDU (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 01:10:10 -0600 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: <20090530014436.BYK80877@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227086555.23782.207335866288718032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1188 Lines: 38 I'd really like to see some of the lesser studied Tantric texts, for starters, the Gandharva Tantra and the several volumes available in the Tantrasa?graha Series edited by V.V Dvivedi in the Yogatantra-Grantham?l? published by Sampurnanand Sanskrit University and Brahm?nanda Giri's ??kt?nandatara?gi??. -- Loriliai Biernacki Associate Professor University of Colorado at Boulder UCB 292 Boulder, CO 80309 303-735-4730 Loriliai.Biernacki at colorado.edu http://www.colorado.edu/ReligiousStudies/faculty/loriliai.biernacki.html > Among philosophical works, I have not so far found > e-texts of (pardon the omitted diacritical marks): > > Santaraksita's Tattvasamgraha and its Panjika > > Sarvadarsanasamgraha attr. to Sayanamadhava (or to Ceni Bhatta) > > Haribhadrasuri's Saddarsanasamuccaya and its comms. > > And very little Jaina philosophy in general seems > so far available. The > encyclopedic nature of the three texts mentioned above, however, > recommends them I think rather strongly. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Sat May 30 06:24:13 2009 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 01:24:13 -0500 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086543.23782.13008039714194975380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 378 Lines: 11 I would be very interested in getting two classes of texts: the philosophical commentaries, e.g. Sankara on the Brahmasutras, etc., and second, the major commentaries and nibandhas of the Dharmasastric genre from the early medieval period -- e.g. Mitaksara of Vijanesvara, Smriticandrika of Devannabhatta, or even the voluminous Krityakalpataru of Laksmidhara. Patrick From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sat May 30 06:44:36 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 01:44:36 -0500 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB09AB0488@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227086551.23782.12905334073918566976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 619 Lines: 23 Among philosophical works, I have not so far found e-texts of (pardon the omitted diacritical marks): Santaraksita's Tattvasamgraha and its Panjika Sarvadarsanasamgraha attr. to Sayanamadhava (or to Ceni Bhatta) Haribhadrasuri's Saddarsanasamuccaya and its comms. And very little Jaina philosophy in general seems so far available. The encyclopedic nature of the three texts mentioned above, however, recommends them I think rather strongly. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Sat May 30 07:28:09 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 03:28:09 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text Message-ID: <161227086559.23782.13000133290094723236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 448 Lines: 16 Following up on Jonathan Silk's observation that an e-text version of Prasannapada is already available, it can be found online, downloadable chapter by chapter, both in romanized and devanagri: http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/ (devanagri) http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/dp/index.php?q=node/35&textID=364a0241f1c530e758a (romanized) http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/dp/index.php?q=node%2F35&textID=305d32f810d503783cb Dan Lusthaus From arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 30 05:40:55 2009 From: arlogriffiths at HOTMAIL.COM (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 05:40:55 +0000 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086536.23782.15945172272045634659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1572 Lines: 28 - I would second George Thompson's suggestion that the time is now ripe to amplify the almost complete collection of Vedic e-texts with the important commentaries of Saaya.na, pseudo-Saaya.na, Bha.t.ta Bhaaskara Mi"sra, and others.- I would suspect that commentaries in other textual traditions have also tended to be skipped in the first, prolific, phase of e-text-creation which Dominik refers to.- What about Ko"sas? At least on GRETIL, we only seem to have Amarako"sa (without commentaries). - There are several important epigraphical corpora printed in Devanagari script which it would be delightful to have in searchable romanized form. Best wishes from Saigon, Arlo Griffiths ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:47:26 +0200 > From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK > Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature has > become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, > Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, > Buddhist literature, much else. > > What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input > yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I wonder if we > can put together a prioritized list? > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk _________________________________________________________________ See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx From kauzeya at GMAIL.COM Sat May 30 05:51:36 2009 From: kauzeya at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 07:51:36 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086540.23782.577571743959325784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1987 Lines: 53 I have the impression that in addition to the materials publicly or semi-publicly available, there are also --perhaps substantial--materials privately input, perhaps in so-called legacy systems. It might be profitable to try to make an effort to bring such things into general circulation as well, even if this means a certain amount of conversion is also necessary--probably better than starting over. I have, for instance, heard that German scholars, perhaps those associated with the Turfan project(s), have a huge database of Buddhist Sanskrit materials, much of which is not otherwise, as far as I know, available, but that it resides in some dinosaur-era format... Moreover, of course, many people input things themselves, and circulate them to their friends and colleagues; if one is lucky enough to encounter such a person while in possession of a large hard drive... well, there must be a more systematic way to go about this. very best, jonathan > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:47:26 +0200 > > From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK > > Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text > > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > > > In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature > has > > become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, > > Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa > texts, > > Buddhist literature, much else. > > > > What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input > > yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I wonder if we > > can put together a prioritized list? > > > > Best, > > Dominik Wujastyk > > _________________________________________________________________ > See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden Netherlands From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Sat May 30 06:32:16 2009 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 08:32:16 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086548.23782.13483926894930178068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 684 Lines: 23 To Patrick's suggestions, I would add Mitramisra's Viramitrodaya. KZ -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Patrick Olivelle Sent: 30 May 2009 08:24 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text I would be very interested in getting two classes of texts: the philosophical commentaries, e.g. Sankara on the Brahmasutras, etc., and second, the major commentaries and nibandhas of the Dharmasastric genre from the early medieval period -- e.g. Mitaksara of Vijanesvara, Smriticandrika of Devannabhatta, or even the voluminous Krityakalpataru of Laksmidhara. Patrick From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sat May 30 07:43:55 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 09:43:55 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086562.23782.3453949849102456748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2749 Lines: 56 Jonathan Silk wrote: > I have the impression that in addition to the materials publicly or > semi-publicly available, there are also --perhaps substantial--materials > privately input, perhaps in so-called legacy systems. It might be profitable > to try to make an effort to bring such things into general circulation as > well, even if this means a certain amount of conversion is also > necessary--probably better than starting over. I have, for instance, heard > that German scholars, perhaps those associated with the Turfan project(s), > have a huge database of Buddhist Sanskrit materials, much of which is not > otherwise, as far as I know, available, but that it resides in some > dinosaur-era format... Moreover, of course, many people input things > themselves, and circulate them to their friends and colleagues; if one is > lucky enough to encounter such a person while in possession of a large hard > drive... well, there must be a more systematic way to go about this. > > very best, jonathan > > In general, the response to Dominik's query suggests it would be worthwhile working towards an inventory of works that are already available electronically: either in searchable format or as image scans (the latter might be useful to know for people who'd like to produce searchable versions, which in some cases may work well with OCR). Even if the e-texts themselves are not accessible publicly, for whatever reasons (dinosaur format or copyright issues), it would be useful to know that they exist. I believe it would be possible to gradually create such an inventory as a web database: collaborative, with users able to create an account and post information about texts that they have entered (and links to where they can be found, if possible), and ideally with a redactor who oversees the general accuracy of information and also keeps his or her eyes open and adds information on his/her own. If individual e-text repositories also publish their new additions in a standardized format (an RSS feed), such information could also be processed automatically. A combination of community effort, some redacting and entry on the part of a designated person, and automatized tools, might be a good way to keep the effort necessary to create such an inventory and keep it up to date within reasonable limits. It would also be a good way to make the best of the current situation, likely to continue, that there are, after all, a number of repositories (GRETIL, Buddhist canon, TITUS, SARIT, etc.) that keep growing and developing. There is really no reason, I believe, why people should reduplicate the work of others. Especially when it's as tiresome as producing electronic texts. All the best, Birgit From hwtull at MSN.COM Sat May 30 15:15:43 2009 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 11:15:43 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086574.23782.9062736310024782934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2232 Lines: 57 Looking at the responses to this post, I wonder if anyone has compiled a comprehensive list of available Sanskrit e-texts and the collections where they can be located? I am not a "full-time" Sanskritist, and I find that when I do need a text, it can necessitate long hours of searching through the different collections and databases. Herman Tull Princeton, NJ -------------------------------------------------- From: "Birgit Kellner" Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 10:55 AM To: Subject: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text > Peter Wyzlic wrote: >> Am 30.05.2009 um 08:44 schrieb mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: >> >>> Among philosophical works, I have not so far found >>> e-texts of (pardon the omitted diacritical marks): >>> >>> Santaraksita's Tattvasamgraha and its Panjika >>> >>> Sarvadarsanasamgraha attr. to Sayanamadhava (or to Ceni Bhatta) >>> >>> Haribhadrasuri's Saddarsanasamuccaya and its comms. >> >> Scanned versions (without searchable e-text) are made available by the >> Digital Library of India (Bangalore division). Unfortunately, the access >> is not very user-friendly (and the URLs are not easy to cite, therefore >> shortened here): >> >> E.g. Tattvasa?graha vol. 1 ed. E. Krishnamacharya: >> >> Tattvasa?graha, vol. 2: >> Sarvadar?anasa?graha ed. V.S. Abhyankar: >> ?a?dar?anasamuccaya ed. L. Suali: and >> > The Tattvasa?graha and the -pa?jik? were at some point made available as > e-texts by Jong Cheol Lee, as were a numer of other Buddhist texts, as > part of a project called "Sanskrit Database for a Polyglot Buddhist > Dictionary". These e-texts do circulate, but they do not seem to be > available for download from any website officially. I also don't know what > became of Lee's project. > > The ?a??ar?anasamuccaya (Suali ed.) was digitized by Muneo Tokunaga, with > Gu?aratna's commentary, and can be found here: > http://tiger.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/mtokunag/skt_texts/SaDDS.txt (Kyoto-Harvard > transliteration). > > Best regards, > > Birgit Kellner > From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Sat May 30 09:36:59 2009 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 11:36:59 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086565.23782.10666233556805424193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 589 Lines: 23 Am 30.05.2009 um 09:10 schrieb Loriliai Biernacki: > I'd really like to see some of the lesser studied Tantric texts, for > starters, the Gandharva Tantra and the several volumes available in > the > Tantrasa?graha Series edited by V.V Dvivedi in the Yogatantra- > Grantham?l? > published by Sampurnanand Sanskrit University and Brahm?nanda Giri's > ??kt?nandatara?gi??. The ??kt?nandatara?gi??, at least, is available via Muktabodha. All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Sat May 30 10:26:20 2009 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 12:26:20 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: <20090530014436.BYK80877@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227086568.23782.1858418926428972733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1397 Lines: 43 Am 30.05.2009 um 08:44 schrieb mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: > Among philosophical works, I have not so far found > e-texts of (pardon the omitted diacritical marks): > > Santaraksita's Tattvasamgraha and its Panjika > > Sarvadarsanasamgraha attr. to Sayanamadhava (or to Ceni Bhatta) > > Haribhadrasuri's Saddarsanasamuccaya and its comms. Scanned versions (without searchable e-text) are made available by the Digital Library of India (Bangalore division). Unfortunately, the access is not very user-friendly (and the URLs are not easy to cite, therefore shortened here): E.g. Tattvasa?graha vol. 1 ed. E. Krishnamacharya: Tattvasa?graha, vol. 2: Sarvadar?anasa?graha ed. V.S. Abhyankar: ?a?dar?anasamuccaya ed. L. Suali: and > And very little Jaina philosophy in general seems > so far available. The > encyclopedic nature of the three texts mentioned above, however, > recommends them I think rather strongly. In 2007, a Jain association in the US brought out two DVDs with Jaina e-texts and scans. It was called "Jaina e-Library". Their web address was or still is: http://www.jaina.org Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Abteilung f?r Indologie Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 53113 Bonn From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sat May 30 18:36:40 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 13:36:40 -0500 Subject: gzhi gsum In-Reply-To: <721C88B3EBB64A5886CFC4D9EE13EB64@zen> Message-ID: <161227086579.23782.18273099100793011294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 683 Lines: 29 Dear Stephen, I am familiar with gzhi gsum as a Vinaya term, referring to the three basic rites of po.sadha, upavaasa, and pravara.na. But this does not seem to be suitable for your context. As Stein pointed out (Tibetica Antiqua I), the conventions adopted in Tibetan translations from Chinese are sometimes quite different from the "standard" Tibetan Buddhist vocabulary, and have not so far been very extensively documented -- Stein's work was a great start, but much remains to be done. best, Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sat May 30 22:01:50 2009 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 15:01:50 -0700 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086582.23782.5035257183393394070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 500 Lines: 18 Regarding Andrew?s comments on BHSD, let me add that I would be happy to commit further resources to a complete digitization if and only if we are legally clear. Maybe somebody with connections at Yale could politely inquire? The Motilal reprint on my desk says ?By arrangement with Yale University Press, New Haven,? so that seems to be a licensed print for the Indian market, not a transfer of copyright. Cheers, Stefan -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sat May 30 14:55:11 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 16:55:11 +0200 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086571.23782.3814955989761416292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1562 Lines: 41 Peter Wyzlic wrote: > Am 30.05.2009 um 08:44 schrieb mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU: > >> Among philosophical works, I have not so far found >> e-texts of (pardon the omitted diacritical marks): >> >> Santaraksita's Tattvasamgraha and its Panjika >> >> Sarvadarsanasamgraha attr. to Sayanamadhava (or to Ceni Bhatta) >> >> Haribhadrasuri's Saddarsanasamuccaya and its comms. > > Scanned versions (without searchable e-text) are made available by the > Digital Library of India (Bangalore division). Unfortunately, the > access is not very user-friendly (and the URLs are not easy to cite, > therefore shortened here): > > E.g. Tattvasa?graha vol. 1 ed. E. Krishnamacharya: > > Tattvasa?graha, vol. 2: > Sarvadar?anasa?graha ed. V.S. Abhyankar: > ?a?dar?anasamuccaya ed. L. Suali: and > The Tattvasa?graha and the -pa?jik? were at some point made available as e-texts by Jong Cheol Lee, as were a numer of other Buddhist texts, as part of a project called "Sanskrit Database for a Polyglot Buddhist Dictionary". These e-texts do circulate, but they do not seem to be available for download from any website officially. I also don't know what became of Lee's project. The ?a??ar?anasamuccaya (Suali ed.) was digitized by Muneo Tokunaga, with Gu?aratna's commentary, and can be found here: http://tiger.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/mtokunag/skt_texts/SaDDS.txt (Kyoto-Harvard transliteration). Best regards, Birgit Kellner From pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM Sat May 30 18:11:37 2009 From: pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM (Pankaj Jain) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 19:11:37 +0100 Subject: Movies on Shankaracharya et al AND saving word docs as pdf Message-ID: <161227086577.23782.12411779891882957511.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1008 Lines: 31 G V Iyer (the maker of Sanskrit film on Adi Shankaracharya) also made films on other great Hindu figures: Ramanujacharya (in Tamil) can be bought at: http://www.thekrishnastore.com/Detail.bok?no=827&bar Madhvacharya (in Kannada)can be bought at: http://www.vedanta.com/store/product361.html Also, regarding saving word documents as pdf, I would like to share that MS-Word 2007 has a built-in option for this, just click on save as and then choose pdf (you will need to install a microsoft plugin to enable this feature, available at: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=4d951911-3e7e-4ae6-b059-a2e79ed87041&displaylang=en ) Hope this helps, Best, Pankaj ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Pankaj Jain पंकज ज&#2376;न, Department of Religion and Philosophy, Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures, North Carolina State University. http://www.IndicUniversity.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU Sun May 31 01:15:50 2009 From: frederick-smith at UIOWA.EDU (Smith, Frederick M) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 20:15:50 -0500 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086586.23782.4031987035498017273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 712 Lines: 24 Tantravarttika by Kumarila Bhatta. All available comms, on Yogasutras. But, Jonathan and others are right, we do need a single list of what's out there. Fred Smith On 5/29/09 7:47 AM, "Dominik Wujastyk" wrote: In the last decade or two, a substantial amount of Sanskrit literature has become available in e-text form. Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Mahabhasya, Astadhyayi, Kasika, Puranas, many Tantras, dharmasastra and jyotisa texts, Buddhist literature, much else. What next? What text is there in Devanagari script that hasn't been input yet, and that you would dearly like to have as an e-text? I wonder if we can put together a prioritized list? Best, Dominik Wujastyk From fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 31 01:36:59 2009 From: fleming_b4 at HOTMAIL.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Sat, 30 May 09 21:36:59 -0400 Subject: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227086589.23782.14105685160502232952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 385 Lines: 18 And I thought dealing with Sanskrit lists of pilgrimage sites could be unruly! A single list would indeed be a feat of ever growing proportions. . listenwissenschaft in practice! Best Wishes, BF On 5/30/09 9:15 PM, "Smith, Frederick M" wrote: > But, Jonathan and others are right, we do need a single list of what's out > there. > > Fred Smith From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Sat May 30 23:45:53 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 31 May 09 00:45:53 +0100 Subject: gzhi gsum Message-ID: <161227086584.23782.16813417252286964291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1514 Lines: 34 Dear Matthew, Thanks for your Vinaya suggestion ~ though, of course it does not fit as you yourself mention. > As Stein pointed out (Tibetica Antiqua I), > the conventions adopted in Tibetan translations >from Chinese are sometimes quite different from >the "standard" Tibetan Buddhist vocabulary. Very true, but this is not a translation from Chinese at all ~ I am not working with the secondary translation into Tibetan, of Dharmaksema's "extended" Chinese text, even though that happens to be popular with Tibetan writers. Actually the parallel Chinese versions by Faxian and Dharmaskema of the Indic text of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana-sutra, each ultimately based on the same ancestral South Indian text as the Tibetan text, are unhelpful since they have in most cases converted the "gzhi gsum" into a simple "san bao" (Three Jewels). As for possible Skt candidates, it is a probably a toss up between "vastu" or "bhaava" for "gzhi". I am interested because it seems an unusual expression, and I wondered whether it might be a idiosyncratic term of choice among whichever Mahasanghika sub-group produced the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana-sutra in the first place. This is not unimportant since the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana-sutra spends quite a bit of time discussing the Three Jewels in the guise of these "gzhi gsum" (and never "dkon mchog gsum"), when they are eventually subsumed into the buddha-dhaatu and thus interiorized as a personal, internal refuge. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Sun May 31 08:14:21 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Sun, 31 May 09 03:14:21 -0500 Subject: gzhi gsum In-Reply-To: <3CDA3001BEBD410BBB5EEC13409ACF32@zen> Message-ID: <161227086591.23782.16052695573716698845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 559 Lines: 21 Dear Stephen, It's indeed an interesting locution, particularly given that the source text is Indic. I suspect you're right to think that vastu is a better candidate than bhaava, but have you ruled out aazraya? In any case, if the Chinese versions are using sanbao throughout, they're of no help at all here. Do you find anything in the Turfan fragments edited by Waldschmidt? Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From fifield at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun May 31 16:27:14 2009 From: fifield at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Justin A. Fifield) Date: Sun, 31 May 09 12:27:14 -0400 Subject: here, here (was: Re: What Devanagari text would you most like as an e-text_ In-Reply-To: <20090530220150.GA5474@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227086596.23782.15539274053523979952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 968 Lines: 35 Dear all, I have a scanned copy of the BHSD in .pdf and .jpg that could serve as a basis for an e-text (provided the copyright issues are settled; this scan I did myself from the Motilal publication). However, this file is _very_ big, running over half a gig. I'm not quite sure how to reduce the size in a way that preserves the quality of the text. Please let me know if these files could be of some use. Best, Justin Fifield Ph.D. Candidate Study of Religion Harvard University Stefan Baums wrote: > Regarding Andrew?s comments on BHSD, let me add that I would be > happy to commit further resources to a complete digitization if > and only if we are legally clear. Maybe somebody with connections > at Yale could politely inquire? The Motilal reprint on my desk > says ?By arrangement with Yale University Press, New Haven,? so > that seems to be a licensed print for the Indian market, not a > transfer of copyright. > > Cheers, > Stefan > > From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Sun May 31 11:40:58 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Sun, 31 May 09 13:40:58 +0200 Subject: Choice of meter for writing a treatise: s'loka vs. aaryaa Message-ID: <161227086594.23782.12999978088433470314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 565 Lines: 21 Dear list members, being engaged in a study of the popularity of various meters in the Tamil speaking world, I would welcome informations on the reasons (or the background) for the choice of meter while writing a treatise in Sanskrit. Are there for instance articles/books examining, explaining or suggesting reasons why the V?kyapad?ya was composed in ?loka-s whereas the S??khyak?rik? was composed in ?ry?? (I hope I am not mistaken) Is this simply a consequence of the date of their compositions? Thanks for any pointers -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Nov 1 00:33:52 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 17:33:52 -0700 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <4AEC9E60.5030803@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087792.23782.11277313061595585400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1946 Lines: 80 The /Balacarita/ of Bhasa also mentions Narayana/Visnu's changing colors in the yugas in its opening lines: Krta: the color of conch or milk Treta: shiny like gold Dvapara: black as durva grass Kali: black as collyrium Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann _____ on 10/31/2009 1:30 PM Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > The colors in 3.148, mentioned by Harunaga, are: > > Krta: white > Treta: red > Dvapara: yellow > Kali: black > > But there is a different version in Mbh 3.187.31: > > Krta: white > Treta: yellow > Dvapara: red > Kali: black > > Where the colors for Treta and Dvapara are reversed. > > I discuss this in my book /The Mahabharata and the Yugas/ (pp. 103, > 114-116). > > Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann > _____ > > on 10/31/2009 12:29 PM Harunaga Isaacson wrote: >> And it is in the MBh, not only in passages excluded from the critical >> edition (such as that which DG >> quoted), but also in 3.148 ("sukla in vs. 16, rakta in 23, piita in >> 26, and k.r.s.na in 33). >> >> Harunaga Isaacson >> >> >> Peter Bisschop wrote: >>> It is found in the Vi.s.nudharma (edition R. Gruenendahl): >>> 104.27 ("sukla), 104.35 (rakta), 104.38 (piita), 104.45 (k.r.s.na) >>> >>> Peter Bisschop >>> >>> Quoting Dominic Goodall : >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour in >>>> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >>>> >>>> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m >>>> tanuu.h >>>> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m >>>> gata.h >>>> >>>> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the >>>> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >>>> >>>> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge raktataa.m >>>> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >>>> abhyaagata.h >>>> >>>> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >>>> >>>> Dominic Goodall >>> >>> >>> >> >> > From jkirk at SPRO.NET Sun Nov 1 00:56:35 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 18:56:35 -0600 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <4AECA794.2010707@columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227087794.23782.9472568688385734045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2831 Lines: 115 A scholar who's done a good deal of work on the 'echt-colors' (if I may call them that) is Nick Allen, with respect to Dumezil's tripartite IE functions. See for ex.: Allen, N.J. 1998c Varnas, colours and functions: expanding Dum?zil?s schema. Z. f?r Religionswissenschaft 6: 163-177. Another comparative source is Berlin & Kay, Basic Color Terms: Their Universality and Evolution. Best, Joanna Kirkpatrick =============== -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Tenzin Bob Thurman Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 3:10 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: yugas and colours Just noticed this discussion, and it brought to mind the not unrelated fact that the faces of the Buddha Kaalachakra and the dirctional colors in his mandala palace are precisely those, front-east black, right-south red, back-west yellow, left-north white. ince his body is supposed to represent all the "parts" of time, fitting that his faces represent the yugas. That mandala is the only one in the Tibetan collection that I know of that uses those colors for the faces and directions. Bob Thurman Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > The colors in 3.148, mentioned by Harunaga, are: > > Krta: white > Treta: red > Dvapara: yellow > Kali: black > > But there is a different version in Mbh 3.187.31: > > Krta: white > Treta: yellow > Dvapara: red > Kali: black > > Where the colors for Treta and Dvapara are reversed. > > I discuss this in my book /The Mahabharata and the Yugas/ (pp. 103, > 114-116). > > Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann > _____ > > on 10/31/2009 12:29 PM Harunaga Isaacson wrote: >> And it is in the MBh, not only in passages excluded from the critical >> edition (such as that which DG quoted), but also in 3.148 ("sukla in >> vs. 16, rakta in 23, piita in 26, and k.r.s.na in 33). >> >> Harunaga Isaacson >> >> >> Peter Bisschop wrote: >>> It is found in the Vi.s.nudharma (edition R. Gruenendahl): >>> 104.27 ("sukla), 104.35 (rakta), 104.38 (piita), 104.45 (k.r.s.na) >>> >>> Peter Bisschop >>> >>> Quoting Dominic Goodall : >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour >>>> in each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >>>> >>>> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m >>>> tanuu.h >>>> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m >>>> gata.h >>>> >>>> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the >>>> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >>>> >>>> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge >>>> raktataa.m >>>> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >>>> abhyaagata.h >>>> >>>> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >>>> >>>> Dominic Goodall >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From jkirk at SPRO.NET Sun Nov 1 01:50:28 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 19:50:28 -0600 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <4AECD770.50607@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087797.23782.8063899934551102988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2959 Lines: 121 Here you can see a photo of durva grass: http://tinyurl.com/yamfzx2 It is (by our naming) "green". One of the problems with colors is that black, blue and green often are conflated in the same term. Or "dark" might mean green. And in some areas green and yellow share the same term. So here, I'd guess (in terms of the way 'we" perceive color), dvapara would be green, not "black as durva grass". krta--color of conch or milk--= white treta--like gold = yellow dvapara --durva grass = green (elsewhere, blue or dark blue) kali= kaajal--usually there's little variation with real black. The missing color here is red. But, like classification of foods according to their warmth or coldness, dryness or moisture, etc., these color classifications will show variation. Joanna K. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Luis Gonzalez-Reimann Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 6:34 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: yugas and colours The /Balacarita/ of Bhasa also mentions Narayana/Visnu's changing colors in the yugas in its opening lines: Krta: the color of conch or milk Treta: shiny like gold Dvapara: black as durva grass Kali: black as collyrium Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann _____ on 10/31/2009 1:30 PM Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > The colors in 3.148, mentioned by Harunaga, are: > > Krta: white > Treta: red > Dvapara: yellow > Kali: black > > But there is a different version in Mbh 3.187.31: > > Krta: white > Treta: yellow > Dvapara: red > Kali: black > > Where the colors for Treta and Dvapara are reversed. > > I discuss this in my book /The Mahabharata and the Yugas/ (pp. 103, > 114-116). > > Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann > _____ > > on 10/31/2009 12:29 PM Harunaga Isaacson wrote: >> And it is in the MBh, not only in passages excluded from the critical >> edition (such as that which DG quoted), but also in 3.148 ("sukla in >> vs. 16, rakta in 23, piita in 26, and k.r.s.na in 33). >> >> Harunaga Isaacson >> >> >> Peter Bisschop wrote: >>> It is found in the Vi.s.nudharma (edition R. Gruenendahl): >>> 104.27 ("sukla), 104.35 (rakta), 104.38 (piita), 104.45 (k.r.s.na) >>> >>> Peter Bisschop >>> >>> Quoting Dominic Goodall : >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour >>>> in each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >>>> >>>> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m >>>> tanuu.h >>>> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m >>>> gata.h >>>> >>>> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the >>>> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >>>> >>>> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge >>>> raktataa.m >>>> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >>>> abhyaagata.h >>>> >>>> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >>>> >>>> Dominic Goodall >>> >>> >>> >> >> > From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Sun Nov 1 06:59:13 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 23:59:13 -0700 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <65DF1482341B4FD3A9E279B7C58ACCD0@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <161227087802.23782.7337519740744359099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3514 Lines: 149 Yes, thanks. Surely 'durva-green' would be better. The text says dUrvA-zyAma-nibhaH. Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann _____ on 10/31/2009 6:50 PM JKirkpatrick wrote: > Here you can see a photo of durva grass: > http://tinyurl.com/yamfzx2 > > It is (by our naming) "green". One of the problems with colors is > that black, blue and green often are conflated in the same term. > Or "dark" might mean green. > And in some areas green and yellow share the same term. > So here, I'd guess (in terms of the way 'we" perceive color), > dvapara would be green, not > "black as durva grass". > > krta--color of conch or milk--= white > treta--like gold = yellow > dvapara --durva grass = green (elsewhere, blue or dark blue) > kali= kaajal--usually there's little variation with real black. > > The missing color here is red. > > But, like classification of foods according to their warmth or > coldness, dryness or moisture, etc., these color classifications > will show variation. > > Joanna K. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 6:34 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: yugas and colours > > The /Balacarita/ of Bhasa also mentions Narayana/Visnu's changing > colors in the yugas in its opening lines: > > Krta: the color of conch or milk > Treta: shiny like gold > Dvapara: black as durva grass > Kali: black as collyrium > > Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann > _____ > > on 10/31/2009 1:30 PM Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > >> The colors in 3.148, mentioned by Harunaga, are: >> >> Krta: white >> Treta: red >> Dvapara: yellow >> Kali: black >> >> But there is a different version in Mbh 3.187.31: >> >> Krta: white >> Treta: yellow >> Dvapara: red >> Kali: black >> >> Where the colors for Treta and Dvapara are reversed. >> >> I discuss this in my book /The Mahabharata and the Yugas/ (pp. >> > 103, > >> 114-116). >> >> Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann >> _____ >> >> on 10/31/2009 12:29 PM Harunaga Isaacson wrote: >> >>> And it is in the MBh, not only in passages excluded from the >>> > critical > >>> edition (such as that which DG quoted), but also in 3.148 >>> > ("sukla in > >>> vs. 16, rakta in 23, piita in 26, and k.r.s.na in 33). >>> >>> Harunaga Isaacson >>> >>> >>> Peter Bisschop wrote: >>> >>>> It is found in the Vi.s.nudharma (edition R. Gruenendahl): >>>> 104.27 ("sukla), 104.35 (rakta), 104.38 (piita), 104.45 >>>> > (k.r.s.na) > >>>> Peter Bisschop >>>> >>>> Quoting Dominic Goodall : >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes >>>>> > colour > >>>>> in each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >>>>> >>>>> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato >>>>> > 'nuyuga.m > >>>>> tanuu.h >>>>> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m >>>>> > k.r.s.nataa.m > >>>>> gata.h >>>>> >>>>> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text >>>>> > of the > >>>>> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >>>>> >>>>> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge >>>>> raktataa.m >>>>> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan >>>>> > k.r.s.natvam > >>>>> abhyaagata.h >>>>> >>>>> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >>>>> >>>>> Dominic Goodall >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > From ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Nov 1 11:33:32 2009 From: ssandahl at SYMPATICO.CA (Stella Sandahl) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 09 06:33:32 -0500 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <65DF1482341B4FD3A9E279B7C58ACCD0@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <161227087804.23782.9946171488126111525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3607 Lines: 138 Regarding the problem of the exact meaning of colours there is the excellent article by Jean Filliozat: "Classement des coleurs et des lumi?res en sanskrit" in Bulletin de l'Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, IVe section, Paris 1955. See also the chapter "Les coleurs des sentiments" in my book Le GItagovinda. Tradition et innovation dans le kAvya, Stockholm 1977, pp.144-154. Best Stella Sandahl -- Stella Sandahl ssandahl at sympatico.ca On 31-Oct-09, at 9:50 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Here you can see a photo of durva grass: > http://tinyurl.com/yamfzx2 > > It is (by our naming) "green". One of the problems with colors is > that black, blue and green often are conflated in the same term. > Or "dark" might mean green. > And in some areas green and yellow share the same term. > So here, I'd guess (in terms of the way 'we" perceive color), > dvapara would be green, not > "black as durva grass". > > krta--color of conch or milk--= white > treta--like gold = yellow > dvapara --durva grass = green (elsewhere, blue or dark blue) > kali= kaajal--usually there's little variation with real black. > > The missing color here is red. > > But, like classification of foods according to their warmth or > coldness, dryness or moisture, etc., these color classifications > will show variation. > > Joanna K. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 6:34 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: yugas and colours > > The /Balacarita/ of Bhasa also mentions Narayana/Visnu's changing > colors in the yugas in its opening lines: > > Krta: the color of conch or milk > Treta: shiny like gold > Dvapara: black as durva grass > Kali: black as collyrium > > Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann > _____ > > on 10/31/2009 1:30 PM Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >> The colors in 3.148, mentioned by Harunaga, are: >> >> Krta: white >> Treta: red >> Dvapara: yellow >> Kali: black >> >> But there is a different version in Mbh 3.187.31: >> >> Krta: white >> Treta: yellow >> Dvapara: red >> Kali: black >> >> Where the colors for Treta and Dvapara are reversed. >> >> I discuss this in my book /The Mahabharata and the Yugas/ (pp. > 103, >> 114-116). >> >> Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann >> _____ >> >> on 10/31/2009 12:29 PM Harunaga Isaacson wrote: >>> And it is in the MBh, not only in passages excluded from the > critical >>> edition (such as that which DG quoted), but also in 3.148 > ("sukla in >>> vs. 16, rakta in 23, piita in 26, and k.r.s.na in 33). >>> >>> Harunaga Isaacson >>> >>> >>> Peter Bisschop wrote: >>>> It is found in the Vi.s.nudharma (edition R. Gruenendahl): >>>> 104.27 ("sukla), 104.35 (rakta), 104.38 (piita), 104.45 > (k.r.s.na) >>>> >>>> Peter Bisschop >>>> >>>> Quoting Dominic Goodall : >>>> >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes > colour >>>>> in each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >>>>> >>>>> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato > 'nuyuga.m >>>>> tanuu.h >>>>> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m > k.r.s.nataa.m >>>>> gata.h >>>>> >>>>> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text > of the >>>>> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >>>>> >>>>> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge >>>>> raktataa.m >>>>> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan > k.r.s.natvam >>>>> abhyaagata.h >>>>> >>>>> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >>>>> >>>>> Dominic Goodall >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sun Nov 1 02:23:58 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 09 07:53:58 +0530 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <4AECC490.1010202@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087799.23782.17591043522879544174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4351 Lines: 125 01.11.09 Thanks for the correction! I am extremely sorry for the inadvertent posting. I could consult Mitchiner's Introduction only this morning. The origin of the idea .still, remains worth investigating. Referring to the?Mahabharata, i think, is still risky barring where it agrees with the later Vedic texts.?The Vishnudharmottara may be better. It belongs to the extreme north, perhaps.??Does the striking similarity between?Trika and the views of the Siddhantins of the South speak of good connectivity? Best DB ________________________________ From: Luis Gonzalez-Reimann To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Sun, 1 November, 2009 4:43:20 AM Subject: Re: yugas and colours But Mitchiner dates the Yuga Purana to the 1st century BCE, not the 5th century CE. Pingree dates it to the same century as Mitchiner, or possibly to the following one. Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann _____ on 10/31/2009 10:11 AM Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > It is all right that the century belongs to the CE. Still a southern claim to the origin of the idea is not, perhaps, reduced by that. I checked the Yugapur??a (edMitchiner, AS,Calcutta1986 BI 312).but did not find any reference to the colour of the yugas. That means the absence of the idea in the North till the 5th Cent.CE (YP so dated/Mitchiner). The extant Bh?gavata could not have been redacted in the North. Its flowery classical k?vya style was a dead thing in the North during the time when it is supposed to have been redacted from a lost older Bh?gavata. The South can make a strong claim. > Best > DB > > ________________________________ > From: George Hart > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Sent: Sat, 31 October, 2009 9:23:40 PM > Subject: Re: yugas and colours > > Of course it's CE, not BCE.? None of the Tamil works can be dated to BCE -- though we do have inscriptions from the first couple centuries BCE. > > The Tamil is > > paaz ena kaal ena paaku ena onRu ena pari.3-77 > iraNTu ena muunRu ena naanku ena aintu ena pari.3-78 > aaRu ena eezu ena eTTu ena toNTu ena pari.3-79 > naalvakai uuzi eN naviRRum ciRappinai pari.3-80 > ce kaN kaari karu kaN veLLai pari.3-81 > pon kaN paccai pai kaN maaal pari.3-82 > > (Malten's transcription) > > "Black" is from kaari, ultimately from karu, the standard word for "black."? "Dark" is maal, which can mean "blackness" or "greatness," "great man," "Visnu."? "Dark one with green eyes" could also mean "Green-eyed Visnu!" -- which might make more sense, as "black" has already been used.? The word for "green" can also mean "yellow." > > George Hart > > On Oct 31, 2009, at 8:00 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > >? >> I'm curious as to what are the words for "black" and "dark" in >> this typology? >> The usual colors cropping up in such typologies are white, red, >> yellow, and blue/green/black. >> >> JK >> ============= >> >> On Behalf Of George Hart >> Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 8:04 AM >> >> >> From ParipaTal 3, about the 3rd or 4th century BCE: >> >> Your wonder is such that you are counted through four kinds of >> eons: zero, quarter, half, one, two three, four, five, six, >> seven, eight, nine!? Black one with red eyes!? White one with >> black eyes!? Green one with golden eyes!? Dark one with green >> eyes! >> >> George Hart >> >> On Oct 30, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: >> >>? ? >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes >>>? ? ? >> colour in >>? ? >>> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >>> >>> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato >>>? ? ? >> 'nuyuga.m >>? ? >>> tanuu.h >>> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m >>>? ? ? >> k.r.s.nataa.m >>? ? >>> gata.h >>> >>> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of >>>? ? ? >> the >>? ? >>> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >>> >>> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge >>>? ? ? >> raktataa.m >>? ? >>> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >>> abhyaagata.h >>> >>> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >>> >>> Dominic Goodall >>>? ? ? > > > >? ? ? Try the new Yahoo! India Homepage. Click here. http://in.yahoo.com/trynew > >? Keep up with people you care about with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/connectmore From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Sun Nov 1 12:00:31 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 09 17:30:31 +0530 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087806.23782.18021850687616860986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4712 Lines: 164 Dear all, Thank you for all those helpful replies. My doubt is laid to rest. Since I was aware of this notion only from the Bhaagavatapuraa.na, I had been wondering whether it could really already be the basis for a trope in a Cambodian inscription dated to "saka 801 (K. 713). Thanks to all these reponses, it is now quite clear to me that it can. The verse in question (verse 25) reads: sa.mrak.sati k.siti.m yatra "saure"s "sauklyam bhaved yadi ida.m yuga.m k.rtayuga.m yathaivaabhaati sarvvathaa I wasn't convinced by what the printed translations make of this, and I now feel more confident that it should indeed be understood to mean something like this: "If, with him protecting the earth, "Sauri were white [rather than being K.r.s.na], then this age would appear to be in every respect like the K.rtayuga [although it is in fact of course the Kaliyuga]." Dominic Goodall On 1 Nov 2009, at 17:03, Stella Sandahl wrote: > Regarding the problem of the exact meaning of colours there is the > excellent article by Jean Filliozat: "Classement des coleurs et des > lumi?res en sanskrit" in Bulletin de l'Ecole Pratique des Hautes > Etudes, IVe section, Paris 1955. See also the chapter "Les coleurs > des sentiments" in my book Le GItagovinda. Tradition et innovation > dans le kAvya, Stockholm 1977, pp.144-154. > Best > Stella Sandahl > -- > Stella Sandahl > ssandahl at sympatico.ca > > > > On 31-Oct-09, at 9:50 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > >> Here you can see a photo of durva grass: >> http://tinyurl.com/yamfzx2 >> >> It is (by our naming) "green". One of the problems with colors is >> that black, blue and green often are conflated in the same term. >> Or "dark" might mean green. >> And in some areas green and yellow share the same term. >> So here, I'd guess (in terms of the way 'we" perceive color), >> dvapara would be green, not >> "black as durva grass". >> >> krta--color of conch or milk--= white >> treta--like gold = yellow >> dvapara --durva grass = green (elsewhere, blue or dark blue) >> kali= kaajal--usually there's little variation with real black. >> >> The missing color here is red. >> >> But, like classification of foods according to their warmth or >> coldness, dryness or moisture, etc., these color classifications >> will show variation. >> >> Joanna K. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of >> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >> Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 6:34 PM >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Subject: Re: yugas and colours >> >> The /Balacarita/ of Bhasa also mentions Narayana/Visnu's changing >> colors in the yugas in its opening lines: >> >> Krta: the color of conch or milk >> Treta: shiny like gold >> Dvapara: black as durva grass >> Kali: black as collyrium >> >> Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann >> _____ >> >> on 10/31/2009 1:30 PM Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >>> The colors in 3.148, mentioned by Harunaga, are: >>> >>> Krta: white >>> Treta: red >>> Dvapara: yellow >>> Kali: black >>> >>> But there is a different version in Mbh 3.187.31: >>> >>> Krta: white >>> Treta: yellow >>> Dvapara: red >>> Kali: black >>> >>> Where the colors for Treta and Dvapara are reversed. >>> >>> I discuss this in my book /The Mahabharata and the Yugas/ (pp. >> 103, >>> 114-116). >>> >>> Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann >>> _____ >>> >>> on 10/31/2009 12:29 PM Harunaga Isaacson wrote: >>>> And it is in the MBh, not only in passages excluded from the >> critical >>>> edition (such as that which DG quoted), but also in 3.148 >> ("sukla in >>>> vs. 16, rakta in 23, piita in 26, and k.r.s.na in 33). >>>> >>>> Harunaga Isaacson >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter Bisschop wrote: >>>>> It is found in the Vi.s.nudharma (edition R. Gruenendahl): >>>>> 104.27 ("sukla), 104.35 (rakta), 104.38 (piita), 104.45 >> (k.r.s.na) >>>>> >>>>> Peter Bisschop >>>>> >>>>> Quoting Dominic Goodall : >>>>> >>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes >> colour >>>>>> in each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >>>>>> >>>>>> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato >> 'nuyuga.m >>>>>> tanuu.h >>>>>> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m >> k.r.s.nataa.m >>>>>> gata.h >>>>>> >>>>>> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text >> of the >>>>>> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >>>>>> >>>>>> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge >>>>>> raktataa.m >>>>>> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan >> k.r.s.natvam >>>>>> abhyaagata.h >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >>>>>> >>>>>> Dominic Goodall >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Sun Nov 1 19:48:00 2009 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 09 20:48:00 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Alexander Piatigorsky's Funeral In-Reply-To: <360016.35560.qm@web24007.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227087809.23782.17549579885990172072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 392 Lines: 19 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Alex Watson Date: 2009/11/1 Subject: Alexander Piatigorsky's Funeral Mrs. Piatigorsky has asked me to inform people that Professor Piatigorsky's funeral will be at: 2.30 on Thursday 5th November 2009, Gunnersbury Cemetery Chapel, Gunnersbury Cemetery, 143 Gunnersbury Ave, London, W3 8LE. Yours Alex Watson From jkirk at SPRO.NET Mon Nov 2 17:09:14 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 09 10:09:14 -0700 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <20091102T111606Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227087814.23782.13098912689560428997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2733 Lines: 73 Allen and all, Compare the image found here of what we call Bermuda grass http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2699176990101979459pgYt Qh and the images found here: http://www.tropicalforages.info/key/Forages/Media/Html/Cynodon_da ctylon.htm The 2d link indicates that there are many types of Cynodon dactylon, and the Bermuda type that we know here is not what the classic texts refer to. BTW, my remarks about colors (about which I guess I wasn't being clear) were remarks on the basic social color lexicon in Indian culture that is the varna colors usually found in many contexts, including the 3 gunas. So, when I was referring to the conflation of blue, green and black I wasn't referring only to durva but to the traditional usages of color terms (aside from "our" color term lexicon which is incredibly complex and expands regularly). See Berlin and Kay (cited before) on this conflation tendency, which is fairly widespread across unrelated cultures. They are still doing research on this topic. Another simpler conflation is yellow & green as one term, as opposed to what "we" see as distinct colors. See Nicholas J. Allen's article, for ex.: 1998c Varnas, colours and functions: expanding Dum?zil?s schema. Z. f?r Religionswissenschaft 6: 163-177. Joanna ========================================= Durva, scientific name Cynodon dactylon, is commonly known in English-speaking countries as Bermuda grass (although it appears sometimes other Cynodons are thrown in with it). It is common both as a cultivated lawn grass and an escapee and agricultural weed. Interestingly, some of the online sources describe it as "gray-green." But to judge from the numerous pictures that appear when one searches "Bermuda grass" on Google Images, the grayish tinge appears when it is growing in dry circumstances; the images showing it lush and well watered and fertilized (e.g. for turf) show it a vigorous and fairly dark green right in the middle spectrum of what Anglophones would call green, with no leaning towards the yellow or blue. I don't see any quite as dark as in the image Joanna linked to. But I suspect the Indians would probably think of its archetypal and typical color as the one it wears during the monsoon. Allen >>> JKirkpatrick 10/31/2009 9:50:28 PM >>> Here you can see a photo of durva grass: http://tinyurl.com/yamfzx2 It is (by our naming) "green". One of the problems with colors is that black, blue and green often are conflated in the same term. Or "dark" might mean green. And in some areas green and yellow share the same term. So here, I'd guess (in terms of the way 'we" perceive color), dvapara would be green, not "black as durva grass". From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Nov 2 16:16:06 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 09 11:16:06 -0500 Subject: yugas and colours Message-ID: <161227087811.23782.5929640070424209443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1397 Lines: 19 Durva, scientific name Cynodon dactylon, is commonly known in English-speaking countries as Bermuda grass (although it appears sometimes other Cynodons are thrown in with it). It is common both as a cultivated lawn grass and an escapee and agricultural weed. Interestingly, some of the online sources describe it as "gray-green." But to judge from the numerous pictures that appear when one searches "Bermuda grass" on Google Images, the grayish tinge appears when it is growing in dry circumstances; the images showing it lush and well watered and fertilized (e.g. for turf) show it a vigorous and fairly dark green right in the middle spectrum of what Anglophones would call green, with no leaning towards the yellow or blue. I don't see any quite as dark as in the image Joanna linked to. But I suspect the Indians would probably think of its archetypal and typical color as the one it wears during the monsoon. Allen >>> JKirkpatrick 10/31/2009 9:50:28 PM >>> Here you can see a photo of durva grass: http://tinyurl.com/yamfzx2 It is (by our naming) "green". One of the problems with colors is that black, blue and green often are conflated in the same term. Or "dark" might mean green. And in some areas green and yellow share the same term. So here, I'd guess (in terms of the way 'we" perceive color), dvapara would be green, not "black as durva grass". From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Nov 3 02:12:16 2009 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 09 20:12:16 -0600 Subject: Oxford Lecturership in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227087817.23782.8416707310926350563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1562 Lines: 17 The following message is forwarded to the list at the request of Christopher Minkowski, Oriental Studies, Oxford: *UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD* *FACULTY OF ORIENTAL STUDIES* *Departmental Lecturership in Sanskrit* Salary Grade 7, ?28,839 ? ?35,469 per annum Applications are invited for a teaching position in Sanskrit. This fixed-term post is to commence on 1 January 2010 for six months. The principal duties of the post are to give lectures and classes in Sanskrit during the absence of the current postholder, and to examine and participate in the admissions exercises for three masters degrees. Candidates must have a primary field of expertise in Sanskrit; should hold, or be working towards, a doctorate in a field relevant to the study of pre-modern India, and be able to provide evidence of published, or soon to be published research; and must be able to teach and examine Sanskrit from beginners through to advanced level. Further particulars, including details of how to apply, should be obtained from _www.admin.ox.ac.uk/fp/ _ or from the office of The Faculty Board Secretary, Oriental Institute, Pusey Lane, Oxford, OX1 2LE, tel. +44 1865 288202; fax no. +44-(0)1865-278190; e-mail orient at orinst.ox.ac.uk . Applications and references should reach the Faculty Board Secretary at the address given above, to arrive not later than *13 November 2009*. Interviews will be held as soon as possible after the closing date. The University is an equal opportunities employer. From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Nov 3 02:16:04 2009 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (Gary Tubb) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 09 20:16:04 -0600 Subject: Chayavyakhya of Nagesha Message-ID: <161227087819.23782.7032995002383182882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 330 Lines: 15 The following message is forwarded to the list by request: I am looking for Nagesha's commentary on the yogasutras, called Chayavyakhya. I thought someone on your list would be able to point me to it. Searching on the internet only yielded references to it, but not to the published text. Thanks, Naresh vaak.wordpress.com From ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA Tue Nov 3 05:08:22 2009 From: ashok.aklujkar at UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 09 21:08:22 -0800 Subject: Chayavyakhya of Nagesha In-Reply-To: <29532_1257214571_1257214571_4AEF9264.6070007@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227087821.23782.7982515028651386856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 853 Lines: 22 According to Ram Shankar Bhattacharya (An Introduction to the Yogasutra,Delhi & Varanasi: Bharatiya Vidya Prakasana, p. 47) is published in the Bombay Sanskrit and Prakrit Series as vol. no, XLVI. The same source informs us on pp. 43 and 69 that Nage;sa wrote two commentaries on the Yogasuutra and that the Chaayaa is the larger one. It is worth investigating if the Chaayaa commentary actually comes from Nage;sa's student Vaidyanaatha Paayagu.n.de, since many of the published commentaries of Vaidyanaatha bear the title Chaayaa. ashok aklujkar On 11/2/09 6:16 PM, Naresh, <> vaak.wordpress.com>, wrote: > I am looking for Nagesha's commentary on the yogasutras, called > Chayavyakhya. I thought someone on your list would be able to point me > to it. Searching on the internet only yielded references to it, but > not to the published text. From conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Nov 3 15:31:46 2009 From: conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Frank Conlon) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 09 07:31:46 -0800 Subject: Obituaries for Friedhelm Hardy (1943-2004) ? In-Reply-To: <4AF0497C.2060005@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227087828.23782.9433889496721400931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 420 Lines: 18 Dear Friends, The following note was posted on H-ASIA which was based on Hardy's own website, but then supplemented. Frank Frank F. Conlon Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian Studies & Comparative Religion University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195-3560 USA Co-editor, H-ASIA Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online -------------------------------------------------------------- From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Tue Nov 3 12:59:41 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 09 13:59:41 +0100 Subject: Obituaries for Friedhelm Hardy? Message-ID: <161227087823.23782.1872169085378397710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 708 Lines: 26 Dear All, is there any obituary available online for the late Friedhelm Hardy, who wrote the book /Viraha-bhakti : the Early History of K???a Devotion in South India/, Oxford University Press, 1983. The only one I have been able to find is the short announcement by Richard Gombrich, available at: The BnF (Biblioth?que Nationale de France) seems to think he is still alive: It might also be the case with the Library of Congress , unless I misunderstand the codes used: Thanks for any pointers -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, University Paris-Diderot) From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Tue Nov 3 15:17:16 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 09 16:17:16 +0100 Subject: Obituaries for Friedhelm Hardy (1943-2004) ? In-Reply-To: <4AF0293D.80100@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <161227087826.23782.2306874617735635755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1010 Lines: 42 Dear All, it seems that the link I have given to the "notice" for Friedhelm Hardy on the BnF server has only temporary validity. Here is a more permanent one: -- JLC Jean-Luc Chevillard a ?crit : > Dear All, > > is there any obituary available online for the late Friedhelm Hardy, > who wrote the book /Viraha-bhakti : the Early History of K???a > Devotion in South India/, Oxford University Press, 1983. > > The only one I have been able to find is the short announcement by > Richard Gombrich, available at: > > > > The BnF (Biblioth?que Nationale de France) seems to think he is still > alive: > > > > > > It might also be the case with the Library of Congress > , unless I misunderstand the codes used: > > > Thanks for any pointers > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, University Paris-Diderot) > From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Wed Nov 4 20:40:47 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 09 12:40:47 -0800 Subject: Magha Message-ID: <161227087833.23782.5761016743354539444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 109 Lines: 5 Does anyone know of any recent work on or translations of Magha's Sisupalavadha? Thanks -- George Hart From jwn3y at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Wed Nov 4 21:12:10 2009 From: jwn3y at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (John William Nemec) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 09 16:12:10 -0500 Subject: Magha In-Reply-To: <2B76C073-08E8-4DA6-B737-B95C7289B3AB@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087835.23782.362904797916658606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 449 Lines: 19 The Clay Sanskrit Library lists this as a title to be put forward by Paul Dundas. I wonder what the fate of this volume will be, given the recently-announced discontinuation of the CSL. J.N. __________________________________ John Nemec, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Indian Religions and South Asian Studies Dept. of Religious Studies University of Virginia 120 Halsey Hall Charlottesville, VA 22911 (USA) nemec at virginia.edu +1-434-924-6716 From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Thu Nov 5 13:24:16 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 09 14:24:16 +0100 Subject: Publication announcement (WSTB): Delhey, Sam=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=81hit=C4=81__Bh=C5=ABmi=E1=B8=A5;?= Tauscher, Gondhla catalogue, etc. Message-ID: <161227087837.23782.314072134106401714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3821 Lines: 81 Dear colleagues, [apologies for cross-posting] I am delighted to announce the publication of Martin Delhey's edition and partial German translation of the Sam?hit? Bh?mi? of the Yog?c?rabh?mi as volume 73 of the WSTB, published in Vienna: Martin Delhey, "Sam?hit? Bh?mi? " Das Kapitel ?ber die meditative Versenkung im Grundteil der Yog?c?rabh?mi (2009) 521p. ISBN 13: 978-3-902501-11-0. EUR 28.00. (For a description of the content, see further below.) The more Tibetologically inclined among you may also be interested to learn about (or be reminded of) the two preceding WSTB publications: Helmut Tauscher's catalogue of the Gondhla Proto-Kanjur (no. 72), and proceedings of a conference on the cultural history of Western Tibet, jointly held by the China Tibetology Research Center and the University of Vienna, edited by Deborah Klimburg-Salter, Junyan Liang & Helmut Tauscher et als. (no. 71) For further information and orders, see the WSTB website: http://www.istb.univie.ac.at/cgi-bin/wstb/wstb.cgi Note: customers from outside Europe are advised to select PayPal as a payment option. Bank fees for checks are significantly higher than PayPal fees. With best regards, Dr. Birgit Kellner Arbeitskreis f?r Tibetische und Buddhistische Studien Universit?t Wien - Association for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, University of Vienna Austria ------------------------------- Martin Delhey, "Sam?hit? Bh?mi? " Das Kapitel ?ber die meditative Versenkung im Grundteil der Yog?c?rabh?mi (2009) 521p. ISBN 13: 978-3-902501-11-0. EUR 28.00. [italics omitted in the following] The Yog?c?rabh?mi (YBh), an anonymous compilation belonging perhaps to the 4th century CE, is an invaluable source of information on Indian Buddhist scholasticism (abhidharma). At the same time, it also marks the beginning of the Yog?c?ra school, one of the two main schools of Indian Mah?y?na thought. Approximately one half of this extremely extensive work is preserved in Sanskrit original. These materials are indispensible for gaining a better understanding of the YBh in its original literary, dogmatic and historical context. Still, large parts of them are completely inaccessible to the public, or available only in unsatisfactory editions. This two-volume publication contributes towards filling this gap with an editio princeps of the Sam?hit? Bh?mi?, one of the chapters of the so-called Basic Section of the YBh. As its title indicates, this chapter deals with deep meditative concentration in which one temporarily transcends the sphere of everyday consciousness, that is, the sphere of sensual desire (k?madh?tu). Rather than presenting a manual for meditative practice, the anonymous authors are predominantly concerned with an exegetical and doctrinal, yet highly creative treatment of their subject-matter. For this chapter of the YBh, only one Sanskrit manuscript is known, available only in low-quality photographs. In view of this rather difficult situation, the present work focuses on editorial aspects and presents both a diplomatic and a critical edition of the Sanskrit text, the latter making full use of the Tibetan and Chinese translations and of other secondary materials including canonical sources that the authors frequently cite. An edition of the especially important Tibetan translation is also provided. In addition, the study contains an annotated partial German translation and a complete structural analysis of the chapter. The introductory chapters deal, among others, with previous research, features of the manuscript, the language of the text and methodological problems, and discuss selected aspects of the contents of the Sam?hit? Bh?mi?. Indices of selected names, words and technical terms and of selected primary text passages are included. From sellmers at GMX.DE Thu Nov 5 17:40:53 2009 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 09 18:40:53 +0100 Subject: Magha In-Reply-To: <2B76C073-08E8-4DA6-B737-B95C7289B3AB@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087840.23782.706161974090343835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 718 Lines: 29 There is a study in Polish: not very recent, but perhaps not so widely known: Anna Trynkowska: Struktura opis?w w "Zabiciu ?isiupali" Maghy [The structure of the descriptions in Magha's "Killing of ?i?up?la"]. Warsaw 2004 (Monografie Studi?w Indologicznych 1). It also includes a Polish translation of the analyzed descriptions. Best wishes, Sven Sellmer ************************************ Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Institute of Oriental Studies South Asia Unit ul. 28 czerwca 1956 nr 198 61-485 Pozna? POLAND sven at amu.edu.pl Am 04.11.2009 um 21:40 schrieb George Hart: > Does anyone know of any recent work on or translations of Magha's > Sisupalavadha? Thanks -- George Hart From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Thu Nov 5 23:16:59 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 09 01:16:59 +0200 Subject: contact info request Message-ID: <161227087842.23782.1283770407304671928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 211 Lines: 9 Colleagues Could some one send me (off list) the most recent contact details for Prof. Ram Karan Sharma? I'm hoping he also has an email address; if not a phone number would be great. Thanks James Hartzell From annamisia at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 6 12:52:46 2009 From: annamisia at YAHOO.COM (Anna A. Slaczka) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 09 04:52:46 -0800 Subject: reincarnated Hindu saints In-Reply-To: <070673BD72CD0248A292DC64769ECDBF21CC66@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227087848.23782.10329058006748160116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1678 Lines: 53 Dear Tim, The first thing that comes to my mind is the South Indian guru Satya Sai Baba who, apart from being seen as an avatar, is also considered an incarnation of the Sai Baba of Shirdi. Hope this helps, Anna Slaczka. Dr. Anna A. Slaczka Curator of Indian Art Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam The Netherlands --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Ulrich T. Kragh wrote: > From: Ulrich T. Kragh > Subject: reincarnated Hindu saints > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 1:40 PM > In Mahayana Buddhism, and > particularly in Tibetan Buddhism, there is the common belief > that earlier saints can be reincarnated, or - avoiding the > samsarically loaded word "reincarnated - literally > 'emanated' (nirmita/nirmitaka/nirmika), in the form of later > holy men and women. I am here not referring to the notion > that a saint may be an embodiment of a deity, like the Hindu > notion of avatAra, which also is included in the Buddhist > notion of nirmita. Rather, I am thinking of cases where a > concrete person is said to be a reincarnation of a former > concrete person. For example, the fifteenth-century Tibetan > female saint Samding Dorje Phagmo Chokyi Dronma was said to > be a reincarnation of the Indian female saint LaksmIMkarA. > > My question: are there any comparable cases in Hinduism? If > yes, it would be nice with a bibliographical reference. > > With best regards, > Tim > > Dr. Ulrich Timme Kragh > Assistant Professor > Geumgang Center for Buddhist Studies > Geumgang University, Dae-myeong Ri, Sang-wol Myeon > Nonsan-si, Chungnam 320-931, Republic of Korea > Tel. +82-41-731 3618 > From cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Nov 6 11:56:03 2009 From: cardonagj at EARTHLINK.NET (George Cardona) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 09 06:56:03 -0500 Subject: contact info request Message-ID: <161227087844.23782.16008778186960257763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 476 Lines: 18 His email address is: "Ramkaran Sharma" , George Cardona -----Original Message----- >From: James Hartzell >Sent: Nov 5, 2009 6:16 PM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: contact info request > >Colleagues >Could some one send me (off list) the most recent contact details for Prof. >Ram Karan Sharma? I'm hoping he also has an email address; if not a phone >number would be great. >Thanks >James Hartzell From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Fri Nov 6 12:40:18 2009 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 09 13:40:18 +0100 Subject: reincarnated Hindu saints Message-ID: <161227087846.23782.1373354992583164482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1078 Lines: 16 In Mahayana Buddhism, and particularly in Tibetan Buddhism, there is the common belief that earlier saints can be reincarnated, or - avoiding the samsarically loaded word "reincarnated - literally 'emanated' (nirmita/nirmitaka/nirmika), in the form of later holy men and women. I am here not referring to the notion that a saint may be an embodiment of a deity, like the Hindu notion of avatAra, which also is included in the Buddhist notion of nirmita. Rather, I am thinking of cases where a concrete person is said to be a reincarnation of a former concrete person. For example, the fifteenth-century Tibetan female saint Samding Dorje Phagmo Chokyi Dronma was said to be a reincarnation of the Indian female saint LaksmIMkarA. My question: are there any comparable cases in Hinduism? If yes, it would be nice with a bibliographical reference. With best regards, Tim Dr. Ulrich Timme Kragh Assistant Professor Geumgang Center for Buddhist Studies Geumgang University, Dae-myeong Ri, Sang-wol Myeon Nonsan-si, Chungnam 320-931, Republic of Korea Tel. +82-41-731 3618 From ocattedra at YAHOO.COM.AR Sun Nov 8 15:27:38 2009 From: ocattedra at YAHOO.COM.AR (olivia cattedra) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 09 07:27:38 -0800 Subject: contact Ruiz Calderon In-Reply-To: <2116269.1257508564023.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <161227087851.23782.3010105375924421285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 266 Lines: 18 Dear Colleagues, Please, could some one send me or put me in contact with prof. Javier Ruiz Calderon? thank you very much, Prof. Dr. Olivia Cattedra. Yahoo! Cocina Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina. http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Mon Nov 9 19:20:26 2009 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 09 19:20:26 +0000 Subject: STIMW Conference Message-ID: <161227087853.23782.9565944252240256946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1163 Lines: 41 STIMW Conference: Call for Papers STIMW The Sanskrit Tradition in the Modern World 26th Annual STIMW Symposium Fri 28 May 2010 11am-5pm University of Manchester CALL FOR PAPERS Offers of papers by 11 Dec 2009 please to Dr Jacqueline Suthren Hirst Religions and Theology, Samuel Alexander, University of Manchester, Oxford Road, Manchester, M13 9PL jacqueline.hirst at manchester.ac.uk STIMW offers a forum for the discussion of papers on varied aspects of Indian religions. Papers have been presented by leading scholars in the field as well as by research students. Papers are sent to participants in advance, so that they can be read and discussed in detail. They are available to those who cannot attend for a small charge. Please note that this year there will also be a seminar on Indo-European/Indo-Aryan matters in Manchester on Thurs 27 May, so you might like to consider coming to both. For further details, see http://www.arts.manchester.ac.uk/stimw To join the mailing list, please email hazel.collinson at postgrad.manchester.ac.uk From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Nov 12 08:32:22 2009 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 09 09:32:22 +0100 Subject: Fw: Muni Shri Jambuvijayji Passed away - A Great Loss to the entire Jain Community Message-ID: <161227087855.23782.17262404120953044499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4061 Lines: 94 Sad News: ---- Original Message ----- From: Pravin K Shah To: JAINA_teachers at yahoogroups.com ; JAINA Headquarters Cc: Lata Champsee Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:38 AM Subject: Muni Shri Jambuvijayji Passed away - A Great Loss to the entire Jain Community Agam Prabhavak, an eminent research scholar, most respected Jain monk by all sects of Jainism and by the scholars of South Asian regions, Muni Shri Jambu Vijayji passed away early this morning (November 12, 2009 - Thursday - Indian time). Early morning, Muni Shri Jambu Vijayji was traveling on foot along with other monks from Balotra (a town in Rajsthan) to Jesalmer and they were hit by a high speed truck. Two munis, Jambuvijayji and Namaskarvijayji died in the accident and others are seriously injured. Jambuvijayji was 87 years old. A great loss not only to the entire Jain community but also to the entire South Asian Religion Research Scholars. I do not have any further detail at this time but will keep you informed as we receive further information. Pravin K. Shah Jaina Education Committee +1 919-859-4994 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A short summary of Muni Shri Jambuvijayji's Scholarly Work Muni Shri Jambuvijayaji continued the pioneering research work that was started by late Muni Shri Punyavijayji Both Muni Shri Punyavijayji and Shri Jambuvijayji have worked all their life in the compilation and publication of our ancient Jain ?gam literature and cataloging ancient Jain Jn?n Bhand?rs Many learned scholars worked under the leadership of these two Munis in compilation and publication of our most authentic literary treasurer. The partial list of such scholars are; Muni Shri Dharmachandvijay, Late Pundit Shri Bechardas Doshi, Late Pundit Shri Amrutlal Bhojak, Late Pundit Shri Dalsukh Malvania, Dr. Sagarmal Jain, Dr. Nagin Shah, Late Dr. Harivallabh Bhayani, Pundit Rupendra Pagariya, Pundit Suresh Sisodiya, Dr. V M Kulkarni, and Dr. Vasudevsharan Agrawal. The most of their Scholarly Work (listed below) of these two Munis were published under Jain ?gam Granth M?l? Series by Shri Mah?vir Jain Vidy?laya - Mumbai, Shri Bhogilal Laherchand Institute-Delhi and other institutes. The Education Committee of Jaina has made all their literature available on Jain eLibrary website (www.jaineLibrary.org) in the form of E-Books. Their literary work consist more than 25,000 pages. List of Books Published under Late Muni Shri Punya Vijayji and Shri Jambu Vijayji: Viyah_pannati_suttam Part-1 Viyah_pannati_suttam Part-2 Viyah_pannati_suttam Part-3 Nayadhamma_kahao Suyagdang_sutra Dasveyaliya_suttam, Uttarjzhayanaim, Avassay_suttam Sthanang_sutra Part-1 Sthanang_sutra Part-2 Sthanang_sutra Part-3 Painnay Suttai Part-1 Painnay Suttai Part-2 Painnay Suttai Part-3 Nandisutt And Anuogddaraim Pannavana Suttam Part-1 Pannavana Suttam Part-2 Anuyogdwar_sutra Part-1 Anuyogdwar_sutra Part-2 Dwadsharam Naychakram Part-1 Dwadsharam Naychakram Part-2 Dwadsharam Naychakram Part-3 Panch_sutrakam with Tika Aendra Stuti Chaturvinshika Sah Swo Vivran Siddhahem_sabdanushasana Sah swopagya (San) Laghuvrutti Mahapacchakkhan Painniyam Divsagar_pannatti Painnayam Tandulveyaliya Painnayam Samvayang_sutram Stree Nirvan Kevalibhukti Prakarane Surimantra Kalp Samucchaya Thanangsuttam And Samvayangsuttam Part-3 Ayarang_suttam (Acharang_sutra) Mahanisiha Suya Khandham Nandisuttam Dasakalia_suttam Sutrakrutang_sutra Vol-1 Hastalikhit Granthsuchi Part-1 Hastalikhit Granthsuchi Part-2 Hastalikhit Granthsuchi Part-3 ------------------------------ Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Nov 13 09:40:55 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 09 10:40:55 +0100 Subject: GRETIL update #360 Message-ID: <161227087857.23782.10377790565185287952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 949 Lines: 34 GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Abhayakaragupta: Nispannayogavali, chap. 1 : title corrected (was: Aksobhyamanjuvajra) Jayatirtha: Nyayasudha, Adhyaya 1 (revised) Jayatirtha: Nyayasudha, Adhyaya 2, Pada 1 Jnanalokalamkara __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Nov 13 22:54:40 2009 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 09 17:54:40 -0500 Subject: NYTimes review of 2 Exhibitions of Jain Art Message-ID: <161227087864.23782.13986090665910125443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 441 Lines: 18 Two exhibitions of Jain art in New York City: "Victorious Ones: Jain Images of Perfection" runs through Feb. 15 at the Rubin Museum of Art, 150 West 17th Street, Manhattan and "Peaceful Conquerors: Jain Manuscript Painting" runs through March 28 at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, metmuseum.org. are reviewed in the NYTimes, including an online slideshow. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/arts/design/13jain.html?_r=1 Dan Lusthaus From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Fri Nov 13 23:31:32 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 09 18:31:32 -0500 Subject: NYTimes review of 2 Exhibitions of Jain Art In-Reply-To: <003e01ca64b4$4878d610$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <161227087866.23782.1704991870043809530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 681 Lines: 30 Hello Dan, This is a good article by a good art critic, Holland Cotter. He is also a good writer. And this piece is accompanied by a nice slide show. Beautiful work. George Thompson Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Two exhibitions of Jain art in New York City: > > "Victorious Ones: Jain Images of Perfection" runs through Feb. 15 at the > Rubin Museum of Art, 150 West 17th Street, Manhattan > > and > > "Peaceful Conquerors: Jain Manuscript Painting" runs through March 28 > at the > Metropolitan Museum of Art, metmuseum.org. > > are reviewed in the NYTimes, including an online slideshow. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/arts/design/13jain.html?_r=1 > > Dan Lusthaus > From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM Fri Nov 13 18:38:32 2009 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.PLUS.COM (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 09 18:38:32 +0000 Subject: GRETIL update #360 Message-ID: <161227087859.23782.15103470527286867100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 275 Lines: 11 Dear Reinhold, This latest addition of the Jnanalokalamkara-sutra to GRETIL you have just announced is very timely. I was just about to start inputting the text for my own immediate use. So many thanks for saving me the time and effort ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Nov 13 23:40:36 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 09 00:40:36 +0100 Subject: AW: GRETIL update #360 Message-ID: <161227087868.23782.5517171111252216454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 596 Lines: 28 Dear Stephen, I'm glad to hear the text came in time. No need to thank me. GRETIL is what contributors make it. Best wishes, Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Stephen Hodge Gesendet: Fr 13.11.2009 19:38 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Re: GRETIL update #360 Dear Reinhold, This latest addition of the Jnanalokalamkara-sutra to GRETIL you have just announced is very timely. I was just about to start inputting the text for my own immediate use. So many thanks for saving me the time and effort ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From mkmfolk at GMAIL.COM Fri Nov 13 22:39:43 2009 From: mkmfolk at GMAIL.COM (Mahendra Kumar Mishra) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 09 04:09:43 +0530 Subject: GRETIL update #360 In-Reply-To: <0A391982F06A46778761855242A7A379@zen> Message-ID: <161227087861.23782.7433429568306590553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1312 Lines: 44 My book Oral Epics of kalahandi has ben published by National Folklore Support Center, Chennai.India. Any body who is interested in the book can be ordered to the director www.indianfolklore.org ( muthu at indianfolklore.org Besides, if any body want to know of this book can contact me in my e mail mkmfolk at gmail.com The book is all about the forest culture and agriculture narratives of the tribal people of Kalahandi related to their socio- cultural epic narration, ritual, culture hero, gods and goddesses, mythic heroes , epic singers, caste genealogies and drought song. It is the out come of a long term research taken up by me in Kalahandi. Mahendra K Mishra Orissa, India On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Stephen Hodge < s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com> wrote: > Dear Reinhold, > > This latest addition of the Jnanalokalamkara-sutra to GRETIL you have just > announced is very timely. I was just about to start inputting the text for > my own immediate use. So many thanks for saving me the time and effort ! > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge > -- Dr Mahendra Kumar Mishra State SC/ST and Minority Education Coordinator, Unit-V OPEPA Residential Address: D-9 Flat Kalpana Area Bhubaneswar 751014,India phone 91+674-2310167(r) 094376-36436(m) From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Mon Nov 16 09:38:01 2009 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 09 10:38:01 +0100 Subject: Help with contacts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087870.23782.13260882108741661530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1256 Lines: 40 Dear List, I am planning a visit to various mss. libraries and would appreciate contact information for access to the following: 1. Asiatic Society, Calcutta. 2. National Library, Calcutta. 3. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Ashok Aklujkar Sent: 3. november 2009 06:08 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Chayavyakhya of Nagesha According to Ram Shankar Bhattacharya (An Introduction to the Yogasutra,Delhi & Varanasi: Bharatiya Vidya Prakasana, p. 47) is published in the Bombay Sanskrit and Prakrit Series as vol. no, XLVI. The same source informs us on pp. 43 and 69 that Nage;sa wrote two commentaries on the Yogasuutra and that the Chaayaa is the larger one. It is worth investigating if the Chaayaa commentary actually comes from Nage;sa's student Vaidyanaatha Paayagu.n.de, since many of the published commentaries of Vaidyanaatha bear the title Chaayaa. ashok aklujkar On 11/2/09 6:16 PM, Naresh, <> vaak.wordpress.com>, wrote: > I am looking for Nagesha's commentary on the yogasutras, called > Chayavyakhya. I thought someone on your list would be able to point me > to it. Searching on the internet only yielded references to it, but > not to the published text. From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Mon Nov 16 09:39:24 2009 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 09 10:39:24 +0100 Subject: Help with contacts Message-ID: <161227087872.23782.6197672846688060670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1478 Lines: 52 Please forgive me for this. I pushed the send key by mistake. More information to come. Best, Ken -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Zysk Sent: 16. november 2009 10:38 To: 'Indology' Subject: Help with contacts Dear List, I am planning a visit to various mss. libraries and would appreciate contact information for access to the following: 1. Asiatic Society, Calcutta. 2. National Library, Calcutta. 3. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Ashok Aklujkar Sent: 3. november 2009 06:08 To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Chayavyakhya of Nagesha According to Ram Shankar Bhattacharya (An Introduction to the Yogasutra,Delhi & Varanasi: Bharatiya Vidya Prakasana, p. 47) is published in the Bombay Sanskrit and Prakrit Series as vol. no, XLVI. The same source informs us on pp. 43 and 69 that Nage;sa wrote two commentaries on the Yogasuutra and that the Chaayaa is the larger one. It is worth investigating if the Chaayaa commentary actually comes from Nage;sa's student Vaidyanaatha Paayagu.n.de, since many of the published commentaries of Vaidyanaatha bear the title Chaayaa. ashok aklujkar On 11/2/09 6:16 PM, Naresh, <> vaak.wordpress.com>, wrote: > I am looking for Nagesha's commentary on the yogasutras, called > Chayavyakhya. I thought someone on your list would be able to point me > to it. Searching on the internet only yielded references to it, but > not to the published text. From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Mon Nov 16 09:43:58 2009 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 09 10:43:58 +0100 Subject: Help with contacts--correct version Message-ID: <161227087874.23782.17121716799213337236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 415 Lines: 18 Dear List, Here is the correct request: I am planning a visit to various mss. libraries and would appreciate contact information for access to the following: 1. Asiatic Society of Calcutta, Manuscript collection 2. National Library, Calcutta, Manuscript collection 3. Rajasthan Oriental Research Institute, Alwar, Manuscript collection 4. Indira Gandhi Centre, Manuscript collection, Delhi Many thanks. Ken From jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE Mon Nov 16 11:17:07 2009 From: jmdelire at ULB.AC.BE (Jean-Michel Delire) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 09 12:17:07 +0100 Subject: Help with contacts--correct version Message-ID: <161227087876.23782.17582802218902406962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3205 Lines: 32 Dear Sir, I have visited the Manuscript department (and Museum) of the Asiatic Society this summer. It is rather easy to have a reader card for a short period, and to see the manuscripts you are looking for. It is much more complicated to obtain copies of them. The rule is that you cannot order directly a complete copy, and even when I was wanting a copy of less than a third of one manuscript, I have been asked to send a very official letter ordering a copy. When I expressed some reservations about the answer to my letter, based on previous bad experience with other libraries in India, the librarian (a lady Dr Mukherjee), apparently shocked, retorted that this is the Asiatic Society, a very serious institution, you know. After having sent such a letter, a friend of mine living in Calcutta informed me that the librarian told him the letter was never received by the general secretary of the Asiatic Society, Dr Chakrabarty. I thus sent a registered letter two weeks ago and I am now waiting for an answer. I suspect that letters from very reputed Universities, not like mine, would be more easily answered, and I would be very interested to know if anybody in the list had such experiences with the Asiatic Society. About the Rajasthan Oriental Research Institute, Alwar, it is even worse. I have visited this library twice in 1998, once without any recommandation, and the second time with a letter written by a famous teacher of the Zakir Hussain University in Delhi. I had never been authorized to see the manuscript I was looking for, and I am now finishing an edition-translation-explanation of the Dvarakanatha's commentary to the Baudhayana Sulbasutra without the Alwar manuscript. To my knowledge, it is the only manuscript I will be missing. Generally, Rajasthan Libraries are very reluctant to let foreigners inspect their manuscripts. Following their rules, "foreign scholars are allowed (...) provided they produce their proper identification and reference from their University, the diplomatic representant in India or a clearance from the Ministry of Human Ressources and Development, Government of India, New Delhi" before they could see manuscripts, and I am not speaking of copying them. I wish you good luck, and, if you succeed, I would like to ask you to procure a copy of the following manuscript : Baudhayanasulbasutratika (or vyakhya), 65 folios, description under serial n?836, accession n?3613, in the Catalogue of Sanskrit and Prakrit Manuscripts, part XXI (Alwar Collection), published by the Rajasthan Oriental Research Institute, Jodhpur, 1985, p.94. Best regards, Dr J.M.Delire Secretary of the Alta?r Centre for History of Science, University of Brussels, Lecturer on Mathematics and on "Science and Civilization of India". >Dear List, > >Here is the correct request: > >I am planning a visit to various mss. libraries and would appreciate >contact information for access to the following: > >1. Asiatic Society of Calcutta, Manuscript collection >2. National Library, Calcutta, Manuscript collection >3. Rajasthan Oriental Research Institute, Alwar, Manuscript collection >4. Indira Gandhi Centre, Manuscript collection, Delhi > >Many thanks. > >Ken > > From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Thu Nov 19 17:28:49 2009 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 09 18:28:49 +0100 Subject: Univ. Oxford: Call for Expressions of Interest, Jill Hart Fund for Indo-Iranian Philology Message-ID: <161227087879.23782.443299546121672751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4803 Lines: 101 [Forwarded at the request of Christopher Minkowski] University of Oxford Faculty of Oriental Studies and Faculty of Linguistics, Philology and Phonetics Call for Expressions of Interest: Jill Hart Fund for Indo-Iranian Philology for applying to the Leverhulme Trust Early Career Fellowship scheme Please note, the following information outlines an internal pre-application selection process. It is not authorisation to make an application to the Leverhulme Trust through this Institution. Leverhulme Scheme The Leverhulme Early Career Fellowship scheme is aimed at those at a relatively early stage of their academic career but with a proven record of research. The Humanities Division at Oxford has a track record with the Trust, having received four fellowships over the past two years (with a number also awarded to other parts of the University). Fellowships are normally tenable for two or three years on a full-time basis. The Leverhulme eligibility criteria are that applicants must normally be under 35, not hold or have held a permanent academic position in a UK university or comparable institution, and have an awarded doctorate or equivalent research experience. (Applications from those aged 35 and over will be considered if they began their academic studies at a later age than is usual or if they have had a career change or break.) The award requires matched funding from the institution and there is provision for personal research expenses of up to ?6k per year, if requested at the time of application. The Jill Hart Leverhulme Early Career Fellow will be appointed jointly by the Faculty of Oriental Studies and the Faculty of Linguistics, Philology and Phonetics, normally in the first three points of University Grade 7, salary range currently ?28,839 - ?30,594, depending on experience. For full details of the Leverhulme scheme please see http://www.leverhulme.ac.uk/grants_awards/grants/early_career_fellowships/ and for further information about applying from outside the University of Oxford, please see the following page on the Humanities Division website: http://www.humanities.ox.ac.uk/research/applying_from_outside_oxford/leverhulme_early_career_fellowships Call for Expressions of Interest The Faculties of Oriental Studies and of Linguistics, Philology and Phonetics propose to use some of the income from the Jill Hart Fund to provide the matching funding for an application in the subject of Indo-Iranian Philology. They now invite expressions of interest from potential applicants in the relevant field who wish to be considered for the faculty?s support in applying to the Leverhulme scheme. [The Jill Hart Fund for Indo-Iranian Philology at the University of Oxford supports elementary language teaching and learning, and philological teaching and study, of Vedic Sanskrit and of the languages belonging to the Iranian branch of Indo-European at their earliest attested stages.] Expressions of interest must be received by noon on Friday 11 December 2009 and should include the following: 1. a maximum two-page CV with education, publications, thesis title and examiners; 2. a maximum two-page statement of research (please note last year?s Leverhulme guidance stated: ?If an applicant wishes to remain in the same institution he or she should rehearse the academic and/or personal reasons for this.? If you are currently at Oxford, please include justification of why it is appropriate for you to remain here to hold an ECF, in the statement); 3. a 150 word abstract summarising the research for a general audience; 4. an indication of what additional research expenses may be claimed; 5. two letters of reference; 6. a note of who your mentor would be, having obtained his/her agreement in principle to act in this role, if the application is successful. Your mentor must be a member of either the Faculty of Oriental Studies or the Faculty of Linguistics, Philology and Phonetics. Expressions of interest should be e-mailed to the office of the Faculty Board Secretary, Oriental Institute, Pusey Lane, Oxford, OX1 2LE, e-mail address orient at orinst.ox.ac.uk. Interviews will not be held. A nominee will be selected by the Management Committee of the Jill Hart Fund, which consists of members of the Faculties of Oriental Studies and of Lingustics, Philology and Phonetics, and all applicants will be advised of the outcome of their application as soon as possible after the closing date. Further information may be obtained from: http://www.orinst.ox.ac.uk/ - Oriental Studies http://www.ling-phil.ox.ac.uk/ - Linguistics, Philology and Phonetics or by e-mail to the Chair of the Jill Hart Trust Management Committee, Professor C. Minkowski christopher.minkowski at orinst.ox.ac.uk From wedemeyer at UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Nov 20 17:04:30 2009 From: wedemeyer at UCHICAGO.EDU (Christian K. Wedemeyer) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 09 11:04:30 -0600 Subject: **Lecturer in Tibetan, University of Chicago** Message-ID: <161227087881.23782.6184886964755983039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1910 Lines: 49 The Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations, University of Chicago, invites applications for a full-time Lecturer in Tibetan. Appointment will be for one year, renewable for one or more multiple- year terms upon satisfactory review. The appointment is expected to start 1 July 2010. Position and renewal are contingent upon budgetary approval. The Lecturer will teach a minimum of six courses per year, distributed over three quarters (autumn, winter, spring). Courses will include both Modern Standard and Classical Tibetan and will be regular language courses within the three levels of 1st year, 2nd year, and 3rd/4th year Tibetan. Language lecturers are also expected to work one-on-one with advanced students as the need arises as well as offer occasional Reading Courses to individual students. The Lecturer will take part in workshops, departmental meetings, colloquia, and informal events directed toward graduate training and development. M.A. or PhD preferred in a relevant Humanities discipline. Application materials must include cover letter, CV, and two letters of support submitted as follows: 1) Cover letter and CV must be uploaded to the Academic Careers Opportunities Website at (https://academiccareers.uchicago.edu); 2) Letters of support must be emailed to: salcsearches at lists.uchicago.edu with subject heading "Tibetan Search" and 3) Signed, hard copy letters of support should also be mailed to: Tibetan Search, South Asian Languages and Civilizations, University of Chicago, 1130 E. 59th Street, Chicago IL 60637-1543, U.S.A. Review of applications will begin 1 January 2010 and close 1 March 2010. No application will be considered until all electronically uploaded materials, emailed materials and paper materials are received. The University of Chicago is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Employer From enrica_garzilli at POST.HARVARD.EDU Fri Nov 20 20:06:10 2009 From: enrica_garzilli at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 09 21:06:10 +0100 Subject: Bernhard K=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F6lver?= Message-ID: <161227087883.23782.17687088978802734147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 200 Lines: 13 Dear Friends, Can anybody provide me with some biographical data (2-3 lines) of Prof. Bernhard K?lver, including years of birth and death? Please respond in private. Thank you, Enrica Garzilli From jglausch at WEB.DE Sat Nov 21 16:18:38 2009 From: jglausch at WEB.DE (Janet Glausch) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 09 17:18:38 +0100 Subject: Bernhard K=?iso-8859-15?Q?=F6lver?= Message-ID: <161227087885.23782.2135204619987109508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 720 Lines: 31 You can find a short biography in German here: http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~indzaw/contents/bibliothek2/BKoelverNachruf.pdf Best, Janet Glausch version > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: "Enrica Garzilli" > Gesendet: 20.11.09 21:06:19 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: Bernhard K?lver > Dear Friends, > > Can anybody provide me with some biographical data (2-3 lines) of Prof. > Bernhard K?lver, including years of birth and death? Please respond in > private. > > Thank you, > > > Enrica Garzilli > ___________________________________________________________ Preisknaller: WEB.DE DSL Flatrate f?r nur 16,99 Euro/mtl.! http://produkte.web.de/go/02/ From garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG Sat Nov 21 20:12:17 2009 From: garzilli at ASIATICA.ORG (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 09 21:12:17 +0100 Subject: Bernhard K=?ISO-8859-15?Q?=F6lver?= In-Reply-To: <955475849@web.de> Message-ID: <161227087887.23782.3402821664041199439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 556 Lines: 24 Thank you, and all the other scholars who gave me info on Prof. K?lver or sent me the obituary written by Prof. von Rospatt. Have a nice Sunday, Enrica Garzilli Janet Glausch wrote: > You can find a short biography in German here: > http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~indzaw/contents/bibliothek2/BKoelverNachruf.pdf > Best, > Janet Glausch > > version > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: "Enrica Garzilli" >> Gesendet: 20.11.09 21:06:19 >> An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> Betreff: Bernhard K?lver > > From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Tue Nov 24 00:16:08 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 09 16:16:08 -0800 Subject: Using unicode for diacriticals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087897.23782.10677259854117150871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2155 Lines: 25 Note that in Unicode, the standard Indic diacriticals work fine (I'm not sure about Vedic accents). I have a Mac keyboard driver, if anyone is interested -- it uses the slash as a dead key and makes entering diacriticals (classical Sanskrit, Tamil at least) quite easy. I'm sure it would be simple to write a similar driver for Windows 7, though I don't know how to do it. I think we should try to move away from all the clunky older systems (like my own TimesIndian) to unicode -- and also avoid such readable but inelegant formulations as sa.mbhavaami (sa?bhav?mi) or, worse, zaastraaNi (??str??i). Here is the beginning of the Meghad?ta (Meghasande?a) in unicode. ka?cit k?nt?virahaguru?? sv?dhik?r?t pramatta? ??pen?sta?gamitamahim? var?abhogyena bhartu? etc. Here's some Tamil: k?rviri ko??aip po???r putumalart t?ra? m?laiya? malainta ka??iya? m?rpi?a?t? maiyil nu???? nutala timaiy? n???am ikala??uk kaiyatu ka?icciyo?u ma?uv? m?v?y.... If anyone wants my keyboard driver, drop me a line. I also have a Nisus macro to translate TimesIndian to unicode. This works fine in Windows 7 -- I just pasted the above into a Word 07 document, and the diacriticals are there in Helvetica and New Times Roman. They also work in the latest Office for Mac and other Mac programs. (To my surprise, it also seems to work in XP, which I just tried). Of course, you have to use a font that has the standard Unicode diacriticals. It would be nice also to use Devanagari, Tamil, Telugu etc. unicode, but entering those writing systems (except Tamil) tends to be quite difficult unless one practices a lot. I think this is important, as use of the unicode fonts that now come standard on every computer makes it possible to read, edit and search Indic texts easily. I have received theses and papers in Word format with 8 or 9 different encoding systems -- and ended up having to install fonts for each. And even if the document is a pdf, you still can't search it unless you have the font and a way of inputting it. Unicode solves these problems. Does anyone know of a good Windows keyboard driver for inputting these diacritics? George Hart From thomaskintaert at GMAIL.COM Mon Nov 23 15:34:24 2009 From: thomaskintaert at GMAIL.COM (Thomas Kintaert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 09 16:34:24 +0100 Subject: lotus leaf in agnicayana Message-ID: <161227087890.23782.541162097214489500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1475 Lines: 34 Dear list members, Relating to research on the cultural history of the Indian lotus I am trying to obtain information regarding the following matter: On the 4th day of the agnicayana ritual a lotus leaf (pu?karapar?a) is placed on the foundation of the uttaravedi. During the last 50 years the performance of at least the following agnicayana-s has been documented in Kerala: - 1975 in Panjal - 1990 in Kundoor/Kundur - 2006 in Kizhakkanchery I would like to know whether, in these modern performances, a leaf of the Indian lotus (Nelumbo nucifera, subsp. nucifera) has been used, or a leaf of a Nymphaea (water lily) species. Since the famous 1975 agnicayana produced almost 20 hours of colour film and more than 4,000 photographs, and the agnicayana of 2006 even around 200 hours of video and 12,000 photographs, it should be possible to find an answer. Unless I overlooked it, the lotus leaf does not feature in Staal's video "Altar of Fire". Does anyone know how I might obtain photographs and video footage of the collecting and use of the lotus leaf in these agnicayana performances? I have already tried to contact Mr. Sarath Haridasan, Director of the Documentation Project of the 2006 agnicayana, earlier this year, but without success. The website of that project (www.projectaksharam.org) has meanwhile been taken off the web. I will also send an e-mail to Prof. Staal directly. Any information in this regard will be greatly appreciated. Thomas Kintaert From thomaskintaert at GMAIL.COM Mon Nov 23 21:09:25 2009 From: thomaskintaert at GMAIL.COM (Thomas Kintaert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 09 21:09:25 +0000 Subject: yugas and colours Message-ID: <161227087892.23782.17031318356505974104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2390 Lines: 41 Please excuse my late posting to this thread (have only become list member recently) and thank you Joanna for the useful references to secondary literature. The four colours white, red, yellow and blue/black are indeed widespread in Hindu mythology, including cosmography (e.g. the colours of Meru?s four sides). Apart from some of the associations already mentioned in this thread, further ones are given in my article "The Use of Primary Colours in the Nāṭyaśāstra". In: S. Das, E. F?rlinger (eds.), Sāmarasya: Studies in Indian Arts, Philosophy and Interreligious Dialogue - in Honour of Bettina B?umer. New Delhi 2005: D.K. Printworld; 245-273 (cf. esp. fn. 148). Interestingly, the Nāṭyaśāstra not only mentions the use of these colours in ritual contexts (the colour of food offerings in the cardinal directions, of cloth attached to the internodes of the jarjara staff, etc.), but moreover, in the secular context of paints used for make-up, states that these very colours are svabhāvajavarṇa-s, i.e. primary colours which cannot be created by the mixture of other colours, but by the mixture of which secondary colours (saṃyogajavarṇa-s) and tertiary or subordinate colours (upavarṇa-s) are created. So on the one hand each one of these colours is indivisible and on the other hand they collectively encompass all existing colours. I therefore assume that these qualities might have been responsible for using this set of colours in many of the contexts mentioned before. I find it especially meaningful that the Buddhist kasiṇa-s, 10 objects of meditation already described in the Pali Canon, consist of the same four colours together with the six Buddhist elements, and that each kasiṇa is said to be advaya and appamāṇa. By the way, can anyone help me obtain a copy of the following article? Sen, Prabal Kumar: The Nyāya-Vaiśeṣika theory of variegated colour (citrarūpa): some vexed problems. Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences (Shimla, India) 3, 2 (1996) 151-172. (= Thematic Issue: Epistemology, meaning and metaphysics after Matilal; Theories of the Nyaya school of Hindu philosophy and logic.) Many thanks in advance! And should someone be interested in a pdf of my article, just send me a private e-mail. Thomas From thomaskintaert at GMAIL.COM Mon Nov 23 23:38:18 2009 From: thomaskintaert at GMAIL.COM (Thomas Kintaert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 09 23:38:18 +0000 Subject: yugas and colours Message-ID: <161227087894.23782.17325048774957929281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2441 Lines: 43 (Since the diacritics didn't show properly in my previous post, I'm sending it once more using the Velthuis encoding. Sorry for the inconvenience!) Please excuse my late posting to this thread (have only become list member recently) and thank you Joanna for the useful references to secondary literature. The four colours white, red, yellow and blue/black are indeed widespread in Hindu mythology, including cosmography (e.g. the colours of Meru?s four sides). Apart from some of the associations already mentioned in this thread, further ones are given in my article "The Use of Primary Colours in the Naa.tya??saastra". In: S. Das, E. F?rlinger (eds.), Saamarasya: Studies in Indian Arts, Philosophy and Interreligious Dialogue - in Honour of Bettina B?umer. New Delhi 2005: D.K. Printworld; 245-273 (cf. esp. fn. 148). Interestingly, the Naa.tya??saastra not only mentions the use of these colours in ritual contexts (the colour of food offerings in the cardinal directions, of cloth attached to the internodes of the jarjara staff, etc.), but moreover, in the secular context of paints used for make- up, states that these very colours are svabhaavajavar.na-s, i.e. primary colours which cannot be created by the mixture of other colours, but by the mixture of which secondary colours (sa.myogajavar.na-s) and tertiary or subordinate colours (upavar.na-s) are created. So on the one hand each one of these colours is indivisible and on the other hand they collectively encompass all existing colours. I therefore assume that these qualities might have been responsible for using this set of colours in many of the contexts mentioned before. I find it especially meaningful that the Buddhist kasi.na-s, 10 objects of meditation already described in the Pali Canon, consist of the same four colours together with the six Buddhist elements, and that each kasi.na is said to be advaya and appamaa.na. By the way, can anyone help me obtain a copy of the following article? Sen, Prabal Kumar: The Nyaya-Vaisesika theory of variegated colour (citrarupa): some vexed problems. Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences (Shimla, India) 3, 2 (1996) 151-172. (= Thematic Issue: Epistemology, meaning and metaphysics after Matilal; Theories of the Nyaya school of Hindu philosophy and logic.) Many thanks in advance! And should someone be interested in a pdf of my article, just send me a private e-mail. Thomas From andrew.ollett at LING-PHIL.OX.AC.UK Tue Nov 24 00:26:08 2009 From: andrew.ollett at LING-PHIL.OX.AC.UK (Andrew Ollett) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 09 00:26:08 +0000 Subject: Using unicode for diacriticals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087899.23782.4431138045052591671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2635 Lines: 57 i suspect that other linux-using indologists have written their own keyboard maps for romanization, because xkb makes it relatively easy. but if anyone is on a linux system that uses xkb (e.g. ubuntu) and wants a keyboard, i would be glad to send mine along with instructions on how to load and modify it. andrew ollett On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:16 AM, George Hart wrote: > Note that in Unicode, the standard Indic diacriticals work fine (I'm not > sure about Vedic accents). I have a Mac keyboard driver, if anyone is > interested -- it uses the slash as a dead key and makes entering > diacriticals (classical Sanskrit, Tamil at least) quite easy. I'm sure it > would be simple to write a similar driver for Windows 7, though I don't know > how to do it. I think we should try to move away from all the clunky older > systems (like my own TimesIndian) to unicode -- and also avoid such readable > but inelegant formulations as sa.mbhavaami (sa?bhav?mi) or, worse, > zaastraaNi (??str??i). > > Here is the beginning of the Meghad?ta (Meghasande?a) in unicode. > > ka?cit k?nt?virahaguru?? sv?dhik?r?t pramatta? > ??pen?sta?gamitamahim? var?abhogyena bhartu? > etc. > > Here's some Tamil: > > k?rviri ko??aip po???r putumalart > t?ra? m?laiya? malainta ka??iya? > m?rpi?a?t? maiyil nu???? > nutala timaiy? n???am ikala??uk > kaiyatu ka?icciyo?u ma?uv? m?v?y.... > > > If anyone wants my keyboard driver, drop me a line. I also have a Nisus > macro to translate TimesIndian to unicode. This works fine in Windows 7 -- > I just pasted the above into a Word 07 document, and the diacriticals are > there in Helvetica and New Times Roman. They also work in the latest Office > for Mac and other Mac programs. (To my surprise, it also seems to work in > XP, which I just tried). Of course, you have to use a font that has the > standard Unicode diacriticals. It would be nice also to use Devanagari, > Tamil, Telugu etc. unicode, but entering those writing systems (except > Tamil) tends to be quite difficult unless one practices a lot. > > I think this is important, as use of the unicode fonts that now come > standard on every computer makes it possible to read, edit and search Indic > texts easily. I have received theses and papers in Word format with 8 or 9 > different encoding systems -- and ended up having to install fonts for each. > And even if the document is a pdf, you still can't search it unless you > have the font and a way of inputting it. Unicode solves these problems. > > Does anyone know of a good Windows keyboard driver for inputting these > diacritics? George Hart From h.t.bakker at RUG.NL Tue Nov 24 12:10:08 2009 From: h.t.bakker at RUG.NL (hans bakker) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 09 13:10:08 +0100 Subject: post doc position Message-ID: <161227087902.23782.15109983170293866747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1723 Lines: 49 Dear All, The following post-doc position is vacant at the *University of Groningen, Faculty of Religious Studies, Institute of Indian Studies*. Within the research programme awarded by The Netherlands Organization for Scientific Research (NWO), /A Historical Inquiry Concerning the Composition and Spread of the Skandapurana,/ *a post doc position (3 years) is vacant for the sub-project 2*: /The Skandapurana in Nepal: Reception and Reception History./ Preference will be given to a candidate who is well versed in Sanskrit, has a first hand knowledge of the developments in Early Shaivism, and is acquainted with the history and Sanskrit literature of South Asia in the first millennium AD. Knowledge of Nepal and its (religious) history is considered as an extra asset. The candidate will be expected to contribute to the research activities within the NWO programme and the Institute of Indian Studies of the Faculty of Theology and Religious Studies. She/he may also be asked to contribute to teaching in the BA and MA curriculum. The candidate is expected to take up residence in Groningen. The post is advertised on the following site: http://www.academictransfer.com/1953 The application deadline is *15 December 2009.* Information about the Groningen Institute of Indian Studies and the Skandapurana Project is found on: http://www.rug.nl/ggw/onderzoek/onderzoeksinstituten/indian/index Further information about the project can be obtained from h.t.bakker at rug.nl -- Prof Dr Hans T. Bakker Institute of Indian Studies University of Groningen Oude Boteringestraat 23 9712 GC Groningen the Netherlands tel: +31.(0)50.363.5819 fax: +31.(0)50.363.7263 www.rug.nl/india From csaba.kiss at YAHOO.CO.UK Tue Nov 24 13:00:14 2009 From: csaba.kiss at YAHOO.CO.UK (Csaba Kiss) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 09 14:00:14 +0100 Subject: Using unicode for diacriticals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087904.23782.13074383859191841407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3436 Lines: 104 Dear Colleagues, I usually use Vim when I type in Sanskrit texts. Vim is available for GNU/Linux and Mac (and probably for Windows), and is highly costumizable/programmable. I am happy to share my Vim keymaps for Sanskrit which support Unicode display with Velthuis save functions (your file is saved in Velthuis encoding, but you see it in Unicode in Vim). It enables you to type your text in Velthuis (aaraama.h etc.), which is very comfortable, and to see it on the screen in Unicode immediately. But I would also love to give a try to the xkb keyboard. Csaba Kiss On 2009.11.24., at 1:26, Andrew Ollett wrote: > i suspect that other linux-using indologists have written their own > keyboard > maps for romanization, because xkb makes it relatively easy. but if > anyone > is on a linux system that uses xkb (e.g. ubuntu) and wants a > keyboard, i > would be glad to send mine along with instructions on how to load > and modify > it. > > andrew ollett > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:16 AM, George Hart > wrote: > >> Note that in Unicode, the standard Indic diacriticals work fine >> (I'm not >> sure about Vedic accents). I have a Mac keyboard driver, if anyone >> is >> interested -- it uses the slash as a dead key and makes entering >> diacriticals (classical Sanskrit, Tamil at least) quite easy. I'm >> sure it >> would be simple to write a similar driver for Windows 7, though I >> don't know >> how to do it. I think we should try to move away from all the >> clunky older >> systems (like my own TimesIndian) to unicode -- and also avoid such >> readable >> but inelegant formulations as sa.mbhavaami (sa?bhav?mi) or, worse, >> zaastraaNi (??str??i). >> >> Here is the beginning of the Meghad?ta (Meghasande?a) in unicode. >> >> ka?cit k?nt?virahaguru?? sv?dhik?r?t pramatta? >> ??pen?sta?gamitamahim? var?abhogyena bhartu? >> etc. >> >> Here's some Tamil: >> >> k?rviri ko??aip po???r putumalart >> t?ra? m?laiya? malainta ka??iya? >> m?rpi?a?t? maiyil nu???? >> nutala timaiy? n???am ikala??uk >> kaiyatu ka?icciyo?u ma?uv? m?v?y.... >> >> >> If anyone wants my keyboard driver, drop me a line. I also have a >> Nisus >> macro to translate TimesIndian to unicode. This works fine in >> Windows 7 -- >> I just pasted the above into a Word 07 document, and the >> diacriticals are >> there in Helvetica and New Times Roman. They also work in the >> latest Office >> for Mac and other Mac programs. (To my surprise, it also seems to >> work in >> XP, which I just tried). Of course, you have to use a font that >> has the >> standard Unicode diacriticals. It would be nice also to use >> Devanagari, >> Tamil, Telugu etc. unicode, but entering those writing systems >> (except >> Tamil) tends to be quite difficult unless one practices a lot. >> >> I think this is important, as use of the unicode fonts that now come >> standard on every computer makes it possible to read, edit and >> search Indic >> texts easily. I have received theses and papers in Word format >> with 8 or 9 >> different encoding systems -- and ended up having to install fonts >> for each. >> And even if the document is a pdf, you still can't search it unless >> you >> have the font and a way of inputting it. Unicode solves these >> problems. >> >> Does anyone know of a good Windows keyboard driver for inputting >> these >> diacritics? George Hart From wujastyk at GMAIL.COM Tue Nov 24 15:28:51 2009 From: wujastyk at GMAIL.COM (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 09 16:28:51 +0100 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087906.23782.9075598526661340386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 639 Lines: 24 Dear Thomas, You probably know this already, but that journal's website is here: http://www.iias.org/periodicals.html and a note to A. K. Sharma at proiias at gmail.com might produce a copy of the article or 1996 issue for you. Best, Dominik 2009/11/24 Thomas Kintaert > Sen, Prabal Kumar: The Nyaya-Vaisesika theory of variegated colour > (citrarupa): some vexed problems. Studies in Humanities and Social > Sciences > (Shimla, India) 3, 2 (1996) 151-172. (= Thematic Issue: Epistemology, > meaning and metaphysics after Matilal; Theories of the Nyaya school of > Hindu > philosophy and logic.) > From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Nov 24 21:41:46 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 09 16:41:46 -0500 Subject: Hindi/Urdu teaching opportunity in DC area Message-ID: <161227087909.23782.14921621141745716006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 673 Lines: 19 There's a new local venture to teach Hindi and Urdu as evening adult classes. For information, go to: http://www.dcinternationals.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=76&Itemid=62 Please forward this to anyone who would be interested. The director of the program is still seeking instructors, I am told. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From Peter_Scharf at BROWN.EDU Tue Nov 24 22:02:43 2009 From: Peter_Scharf at BROWN.EDU (Peter Scharf) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 09 17:02:43 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit Library Assistant Message-ID: <161227087911.23782.11425688576544554945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2908 Lines: 56 The digital Sanskrit library in the Department of Classics at Brown University seeks a post-doctoral research associate for one year to assist in an NEH-funded project entitled, "Enhancing Access to Primary Cultural Heritage Materials of India." The position carries a stipend of $25,000 for one year. The Sanskrit Library is a collaborative project to make the heritage texts of India accessible on the web. The project is building a digital Sanskrit library by integrating texts, linguistic software, and digital Sanskrit lexical sources. This year the project is making digital images of manuscripts of the Mah?bh?rata and Bh?gavatapur??a housed at Brown University and the University of Pennsylvania, cataloguing them, and linking them with the corresponding machine-readable texts. Extending the scope of linguistic software to these digital images serves as a pilot project to demonstrate the feasibility of doing so with manuscript images generally. The research associate will work with the project director, software engineer, and student assistants on the following tasks: --to mark manuscript page boundaries in machine-readable texts --to develop word-spotting and automated text-image alignment techniques --to develop conduits for simultaneous print, PDF, and html publication of the catalogue and other documents. The position requires advanced training in Sanskrit, academic research skills, and expertise in XML. Desirable additionally are some or all of the following: competence in the text-encoding initiative (TEI) standards, XSLT, HTML, CSS, TeX, Java, user-interface design, Perl, PhP, and server administration. The applicant is expected to be creative and to able to work individually as well as to collaborate with technical personnel. Brown University is an affirmative action, equal opportunity employer. Women and minorities are especially encouraged to apply. Apply by sending a resum?, a description of your relevant experience with links to products produced, a clear indication of your role and responsibility in their production (whether you are exclusively responsible or the manner and extent of your responsibility), and the names and contact information of three references to the project director (Peter Scharf) via email (scharf at brown.edu) with the subject heading, "Sanskrit Library Assistant," by 4 December 2009. ********************************************************* Peter M. Scharf (401) 863-2720 office Department of Classics (401) 863-2123 dept. Brown University PO Box 1856 (401) 863-7484 fax Providence, RI 02912 Scharf at brown.edu http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/people/facultypage.php?id=10044 http://sanskritlibrary.org/ ********************************************************* From Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Wed Nov 25 08:06:21 2009 From: Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 09 09:06:21 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Possible contacts between Departments of two countries] Message-ID: <161227087913.23782.12342813685464845295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 560 Lines: 29 Liebe Tina, kannst Du ein Blick hierauf werfen? Liebe Gruesse, Haru -- Prof. Dr. Harunaga Isaacson Universit?t Hamburg Asien-Afrika-Institut Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Alsterterrasse 1 D-20354 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0)40 42838-3382 Alternative email: harunagaisaacson at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 9603 URL: From Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Wed Nov 25 08:20:33 2009 From: Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 09 09:20:33 +0100 Subject: apologies Message-ID: <161227087916.23782.11876146783720109515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 292 Lines: 18 Apologies to the list for that slip... HI -- Prof. Dr. Harunaga Isaacson Universit?t Hamburg Asien-Afrika-Institut Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Alsterterrasse 1 D-20354 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0)40 42838-3382 Alternative email: harunagaisaacson at gmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Nov 30 06:37:16 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 09 01:37:16 -0500 Subject: Contact information for Dr. Wayne Howard Message-ID: <161227087919.23782.2527305321388724850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 171 Lines: 12 Dear Indologists, I am looking for the contact information for Dr. Wayne Howard who authored "Samavedic Chant" (1977). Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 1 01:06:43 2009 From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 09 18:06:43 -0700 Subject: Thanks! (Re: Need references for descriptions of Buddhist nuns in literature ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087664.23782.17704073450066818529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1348 Lines: 42 My sincere thanks to everyone that sent me the references I needed! The online version of Therigatha (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ tipitaka/kn/thig/index.html) is amazing! It provided instant confirmation of what I've been wondering about for decades! These references confirmed my thoughts about the demeanor of Buddhist nuns -- that they shaved their head, they did not wear any ornaments to adorn themselves, and so on. Thanks and regards, Rajam On Sep 28, 2009, at 12:24 PM, rajam wrote: > Dear All, > > I'm looking for any descriptions of Buddhist nuns in any earliest > Buddhist literature. > > Specifically, I'm interested in understanding whether our > literature reflected reality, and if so to what extent. > > In literature -- How are the Buddhist nuns described? > > In reality -- How were they officiated? What did they wear? Did > they wear any jewelry to adorn themselves? Did they shave their > head? What did they eat? Where did they live? Did they maintain > their ties with their kin? What did they do on a daily basis -- did > they go around and preach, and if so what did they do and > preach?, ... , so on and so forth. > > I would appreciate any informative posting on this list. Please > also feel free to contact me directly at: . > > Thanks and regards, > Rajam From axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE Thu Oct 1 07:34:29 2009 From: axel.michaels at YAHOO.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 09 07:34:29 +0000 Subject: Star Wars in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227087666.23782.15911128660590534162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 106 Lines: 7 Enjoy: Star Wars in Sanskrit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBd1kaLKoIg Best greetingsAxel Michaels From rmanring at INDIANA.EDU Thu Oct 1 12:07:34 2009 From: rmanring at INDIANA.EDU (Manring, Rebecca) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 09 08:07:34 -0400 Subject: Star Wars in Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <152726.83723.qm@web27308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227087668.23782.17926842056203481801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 648 Lines: 20 This youtube clip was the final project produced by students in the AIIS Sanskrit program in Pune a few years back; the voice of Darth Vader is that of Bryan Gutridge, one of my then-MA students here at Indiana University. Rebecca J. Manring Associate Professor India Studies and Religious Studies Indiana University-Bloomington -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Axel Michaels Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 3:34 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Star Wars in Sanskrit Enjoy: Star Wars in Sanskrit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBd1kaLKoIg Best greetingsAxel Michaels From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Thu Oct 1 14:44:10 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 09 16:44:10 +0200 Subject: Unicode-compliant Garamond font ? In-Reply-To: <1232607970.3877.18.camel@proliant> Message-ID: <161227087671.23782.910087816221467660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2203 Lines: 67 Dear list members, is there a Unicode-compliant Garamond font available somewhere on the internet? (or a Garamond look-alike?) Thanks for your feedback -- Jean-Luc Chevillard Richard MAHONEY a ?crit : > Dear Readers, > > John Smith's recently updated font collection will be of interest to > some of you. > > > -----Forwarded Message----- > From: John Smith > To: Richard MAHONEY > Cc: John Smith > Subject: IndUni fonts > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:53:36 +0530 > > [snip] > > I have recently created upgraded versions of my "IndUni" OpenType > fonts. These are Unicode-compliant fonts that contain a comprehensive > set of "Indological" characters, as well as all the European characters > that scholars are likely to need. They are available as freeware, and > include high-quality lookalikes for Times, Palatino, New Century > Schoolbook, Helvetica and Courier. They are based on the freeware fonts > so generously contributed by URW++ of Germany. > > The upgraded fonts now contain all the accented characters specified by > MES-1, the smallest of the recognised Multilingual European Subsets of > Unicode. They also contain numerous other accented forms that linguists > tend to require (e.g. vowels with both macron and breve, vowels with > both macron and tilde), all the accented characters needed for Pinyin, > and a set of Cyrillic characters. This is, of course, in addition to > all the characters known to be used in representing Indian languages in > Roman script. > > As well as a greatly enhanced character set, the new versions of the > fonts have had various small bugs fixed, and have been set up to work > with both "composed" and "decomposed" forms of complex characters -- > e.g. the form for "a macron" will be used whether the document contains > the one character U+0101 ("a macron") or the two characters U+0061 > ("a") + U+0304 ("macron"). Since there seems to be something of a shift > in usage under way here, this is a major advantage. > > The fonts can be downloaded from http://bombay.indology.info/. > > John Smith > > > John Smith > jds10 at cam.ac.uk > http://bombay.indology.info > > > > From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Oct 1 16:47:23 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 09 18:47:23 +0200 Subject: AW: Unicode-compliant Garamond font ? Message-ID: <161227087673.23782.4492209849183207327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3548 Lines: 114 The key question seems to me whether the respective font covers the Unicode range "Latin Extended Additional" (with underdot characters etc.). Look here for those that do: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/latin_extended_additional.html The list contains "jGaramond" (of which I know nothing). For download and additional information try here: http://www.janthor.com/jGaramond/index.html Good luck! Reinhold Gr?nendahl ________________________________________________ Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm GRETIL e-library: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gr_elib.htm ________________________________ Von: Indology im Auftrag von Jean-Luc Chevillard Gesendet: Do 01.10.2009 16:44 An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Betreff: Unicode-compliant Garamond font ? Dear list members, is there a Unicode-compliant Garamond font available somewhere on the internet? (or a Garamond look-alike?) Thanks for your feedback -- Jean-Luc Chevillard Richard MAHONEY a ?crit : > Dear Readers, > > John Smith's recently updated font collection will be of interest to > some of you. > > > -----Forwarded Message----- > From: John Smith > To: Richard MAHONEY > Cc: John Smith > Subject: IndUni fonts > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:53:36 +0530 > > [snip] > > I have recently created upgraded versions of my "IndUni" OpenType > fonts. These are Unicode-compliant fonts that contain a comprehensive > set of "Indological" characters, as well as all the European characters > that scholars are likely to need. They are available as freeware, and > include high-quality lookalikes for Times, Palatino, New Century > Schoolbook, Helvetica and Courier. They are based on the freeware fonts > so generously contributed by URW++ of Germany. > > The upgraded fonts now contain all the accented characters specified by > MES-1, the smallest of the recognised Multilingual European Subsets of > Unicode. They also contain numerous other accented forms that linguists > tend to require (e.g. vowels with both macron and breve, vowels with > both macron and tilde), all the accented characters needed for Pinyin, > and a set of Cyrillic characters. This is, of course, in addition to > all the characters known to be used in representing Indian languages in > Roman script. > > As well as a greatly enhanced character set, the new versions of the > fonts have had various small bugs fixed, and have been set up to work > with both "composed" and "decomposed" forms of complex characters -- > e.g. the form for "a macron" will be used whether the document contains > the one character U+0101 ("a macron") or the two characters U+0061 > ("a") + U+0304 ("macron"). Since there seems to be something of a shift > in usage under way here, this is a major advantage. > > The fonts can be downloaded from http://bombay.indology.info/. > > John Smith > > > John Smith > jds10 at cam.ac.uk > http://bombay.indology.info > > > > From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Thu Oct 1 18:23:56 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 09 20:23:56 +0200 Subject: Unicode-compliant Garamond font ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087675.23782.3396982773684412541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3734 Lines: 129 Dear Reinhold Gruenendahl, Thanks for your feed back! I am indeed looking for a font covering the "Latin Extended Additional" range. The page for "jGaramond" does not seem to be very encouraging since the person in charge has written that he "consider[s] the font jGaramond to be deprecated." The closest approximation to Garamond I have found for the time being is a font called "Junicode", which is said to be "very similar in style to typefaces of the 18th century such as Caslon." (See the Wikipedia entry ) It is available from the following URL: For those interested in typography, here is what TYPEDIA has to say: "Junicode (a contraction of ?Junius-Unicode?) is an old-style font. The roman is based on early-18th century type used by the Clarendon Press; the italics and bold are designed to match. It contains Greek characters based on the Greek Double Pica cut by Alexander Wilson of Glasgow in the eighteenth century. Specifically, the type is based on that in George Hickes?s ?Linguarum Vett. Septentrionalium ? Thesaurus? (Oxford, 1703-05), which was commissioned by Franciscus Junius. (SEE: ) HOWEVER, since Claude Garamond (c.1480?1561) was active in the 16th century (SEE ), I am afraid Junicode will not be considered as completely adequate by the person who incited me to start this search, although the 18th century is closer to the 16th century as to the 21st :-) Best wishes -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris) Gruenendahl, Reinhold a ?crit : > The key question seems to me whether the respective font covers the Unicode > range "Latin Extended Additional" (with underdot characters etc.). > > Look here for those that do: > > http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/latin_extended_additional.html > > The list contains "jGaramond" (of which I know nothing). For download and > additional information try here: > http://www.janthor.com/jGaramond/index.html > > Good luck! > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > [....] > GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm > [...] > Von: Indology im Auftrag von Jean-Luc Chevillard > Gesendet: Do 01.10.2009 16:44 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: Unicode-compliant Garamond font ? > > > Dear list members, > > is there a Unicode-compliant Garamond font > available somewhere on the internet? > (or a Garamond look-alike?) > > Thanks for your feedback > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard > > > Richard MAHONEY a ?crit : > >> Dear Readers, >> >> John Smith's recently updated font collection will be of interest to >> some of you. >> >> >> -----Forwarded Message----- >> From: John Smith >> To: Richard MAHONEY >> Cc: John Smith >> Subject: IndUni fonts >> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:53:36 +0530 >> >> [snip] >> >> I have recently created upgraded versions of my "IndUni" OpenType >> fonts. These are Unicode-compliant fonts that contain a comprehensive >> set of "Indological" characters, as well as all the European characters >> that scholars are likely to need. They are available as freeware, and >> include high-quality lookalikes for Times, Palatino, New Century >> Schoolbook, Helvetica and Courier. They are based on the freeware fonts >> so generously contributed by URW++ of Germany. >> >> >> The fonts can be downloaded from http://bombay.indology.info/. >> >> John Smith >> >> >> John Smith >> jds10 at cam.ac.uk >> http://bombay.indology.info >> >> >> >> >> > > From pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 4 20:33:33 2009 From: pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM (Pankaj Jain) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 09 21:33:33 +0100 Subject: Admission open for Summer School for Jainism in India Message-ID: <161227087677.23782.9859732067569140520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1729 Lines: 43 (I forward a message from Dr. Sulekh Jain) ADMSSION TO ISSJS 2010 NOW OPEN ISSJS invites enquiries and applications now for ISSJS 2010 This is a great opportunity to study Jainism and the Jain community in an experiential based academic settings in India in the summer of 2010. ISSJS was established in 2005 and so far nearly 122 scholars and students from 9 countries and more than 20 universities of the world have attended the last 4 ISSJSs. In addition to class room lectures by eminent scholars of Jainism, the other great features of this program are the meetings and interactions with the Jain professionals , practitioners, monks, nuns and visits to temples, historical and architectural places. The emphasis is on the study and learning of philosophy, art , history and culture of the Jains. Another great beauty of this unique program is that nearly full cost ( except $400-500) of the program such as tuition, course material, boarding and lodging in India for the entire stay are paid for by ISSJS to all participants. In addition, some full time faculty and Grad students attending the advance program/module also receive economy class return trip plus some cash stipends. ISSJS 2010 offers 4 different modules as opposed to 3 in ISSJS 2009. A brief flyer is attached for your information. Full details of this program along with the application forms are available on ISSJS web site; www.jainstudies.org. Kindly circulate this flyer among students, in your department , your friends and acquaintances who may be interested in this program With my many thanks Sulekh C. Jain, PhD Chairman , Governing Council, ISSJS North America Houston, Texas ,USA 281 494 7656 ( home) 832 594 8005 ( cell) From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Oct 6 20:09:47 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 09 16:09:47 -0400 Subject: European auction houses and Asian materials Message-ID: <161227087679.23782.16981562878398983674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 659 Lines: 20 If there are any auction houses on the Continent of Europe that at least occasionally deal in rare books and manuscripts from South or Southeast Asia, could folks please inform me of them? The Library of Congress is attempting to create an internal list of auction houses offering library materials. Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Team Coordinator South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU Wed Oct 7 01:49:45 2009 From: peterfriedlander at YAHOO.COM.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 09 18:49:45 -0700 Subject: Auction Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087682.23782.4785932322544358965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 789 Lines: 24 Dear Colleagues, I wrote catalogue entries for Sam Fogg in London (http://www.samfogg.com/) a while ago. They used to have the most wonderful South Asian stuff for sale, everything from ancient Buddhist MS from Afghanistan to illustrated manuscripts, I remember seeing a copy of an 18th century illustrated Ramayana/Ramcaritmanas with Nagari and Nastaliq scripts on facing pages. some of their stuff had also been through the states on its way from wherever it came from to wherever it was going. So Sam Fogg is one to watch, in fact their website catalogue shows this as well. regards Peter --------------------------- Peter Friedlander 21 Hindhede Dr #04-04 Singapore, 589318 Handphone: (65) 90624357 Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Oct 7 19:10:32 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 09 15:10:32 -0400 Subject: Auction Houses In-Reply-To: <262257.72137.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227087684.23782.219747284065917005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 824 Lines: 18 Dear Peter, Thanks. We are well aware of Sam Fogg and have long had dealings with him. I was wondering about auctioneers on the Continent. Allen >>> Peter Friedlander 10/6/2009 9:49 PM >>> Dear Colleagues, I wrote catalogue entries for Sam Fogg in London (http://www.samfogg.com/) a while ago. They used to have the most wonderful South Asian stuff for sale, everything from ancient Buddhist MS from Afghanistan to illustrated manuscripts, I remember seeing a copy of an 18th century illustrated Ramayana/Ramcaritmanas with Nagari and Nastaliq scripts on facing pages. some of their stuff had also been through the states on its way from wherever it came from to wherever it was going. So Sam Fogg is one to watch, in fact their website catalogue shows this as well. regards Peter From antonio.jardim at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 8 01:51:17 2009 From: antonio.jardim at GMAIL.COM (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 09 11:51:17 +1000 Subject: Auction Houses In-Reply-To: <4ACCAF680200003A000697D0@ntgwgate.loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227087687.23782.8106261682425842612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1559 Lines: 51 Dear Allen, On occasion, I have found significant items of Indological interest at the following Dutch auction houses: HONDIUS BOOK AND PRINT AUCTIONS B.V. Graaf van Burenstraat 12 - 7411 RW Deventer, the Netherlands Tel: 0570-600665 or 06-10299776 Fax:0570-610774 E-mail: info at hondiusauctions.com www.hondiusauctions.com BURGERSDIJK & NIERMANS Nieuwsteeg 1 2311 RW Leiden The Netherlands P.O. Box 9002 2300 PA Leiden The Netherlands Phone: (+31) 71 5121067 or (+31) 71 5126381 Fax: (+31) 71 5130461 auctions at b-n.nl www.b-n.nl I hope that is of some assistance. Kind regards, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim Brisbane, Australia On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 5:10 AM, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Dear Peter, > > Thanks. ?We are well aware of Sam Fogg and have long had dealings with him. ?I was wondering about auctioneers on the Continent. > > Allen > >>>> Peter Friedlander 10/6/2009 9:49 PM >>> > Dear Colleagues, > I wrote catalogue entries for Sam Fogg in London (http://www.samfogg.com/) a while ago. > They used to have the most wonderful South Asian stuff for sale, > everything from ancient Buddhist MS from Afghanistan to illustrated manuscripts, I remember seeing a copy of an 18th century illustrated Ramayana/Ramcaritmanas with Nagari and Nastaliq scripts on facing pages. > some of their stuff had also been through the states on its way from wherever it came from to wherever it was going. > So Sam Fogg is one to watch, in fact their website catalogue shows this as well. > regards > Peter > From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Oct 8 14:44:38 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 09 16:44:38 +0200 Subject: GRETIL update #358 Message-ID: <161227087689.23782.15931391614737996961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 585 Lines: 21 GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Jayatirtha: Nyayasudha, Adhyaya 1 (revised and completed) __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Oct 9 17:28:21 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 09 13:28:21 -0400 Subject: Auction Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087692.23782.12995115256850616625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 760 Lines: 40 Dear Antonio, Thanks very much. Allen >>> Antonio Ferreira-Jardim 10/7/2009 9:51 PM >>> Dear Allen, On occasion, I have found significant items of Indological interest at the following Dutch auction houses: HONDIUS BOOK AND PRINT AUCTIONS B.V. Graaf van Burenstraat 12 - 7411 RW Deventer, the Netherlands Tel: 0570-600665 or 06-10299776 Fax:0570-610774 E-mail: info at hondiusauctions.com www.hondiusauctions.com BURGERSDIJK & NIERMANS Nieuwsteeg 1 2311 RW Leiden The Netherlands P.O. Box 9002 2300 PA Leiden The Netherlands Phone: (+31) 71 5121067 or (+31) 71 5126381 Fax: (+31) 71 5130461 auctions at b-n.nl www.b-n.nl I hope that is of some assistance. Kind regards, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim Brisbane, Australia From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 10 10:42:17 2009 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 09 10:42:17 +0000 Subject: Radha Message-ID: <161227087694.23782.14897900466108753877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1405 Lines: 47 Friends: A seminar on Radha is being held in Delhi on Friday January 29, 2010. This is being jointly organised by me and the department of Art & Aesthetics of the Jawaharlal Nehru University. Please let me know if any of you are interested in attending. There is no travel grant but accommodation could be arranged. Regards. Harsha V. Dehejia College of Humanities Carleton University, Ottawa, ON. Canada. Radha her transformation from a gopi to a goddess Despite a rich presence in the visual and performing arts Radha remains an enigmatic figure in the shringara tradition. Emerging from Jayadeva?s Gita Govinda Radha takes a number of different courses. In the hands of ritikal poets of the 17th and 18th centuries she becomes a courtly nayika and features in countless taxonomies of the romantic woman. Chaitanya who takes his stand on the Gita Govinda makes her into a consort of Krishna and devotees of Gaudiya Vaishnavism hail her with the words Radhe! Radhe!. In the traditions of Maharashtra and Tamil Nadu Radha is conspicuous by her absence. In the folk tradition of Bengal Radha is sometimes seen as a kalankini or defiled woman. Despite this philosophers and critics, choreographers and miniature artists celebrate her in many different ways. The seminar will investigate the many sides of Radha in her journey from a gopi to a goddess. From indologi at GWDG.DE Wed Oct 14 12:22:15 2009 From: indologi at GWDG.DE (Indologie, Seminar fuer) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 09 14:22:15 +0200 Subject: Vacancy: Sanskrit Dictionary in G=?iso-8859-15?Q?=F6ttingen,?= Germany Message-ID: <161227087696.23782.8332538353945182715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2145 Lines: 61 Dear list members, on behalf of Prof. Dr. Jens-Uwe Hartmann, I would like to call your attention to the advertisement of a vacancy at the Academy of Sciences, G?ttingen (Germany), in the project "Sanskrit dictionary of Buddhist Turfan texts". Please forward the text given below to suitable applicants. For further information contact Prof. Dr. Jens-Uwe Hartmann, Universit?t M?nchen, Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie, Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1, 80539 M?nchen, or juhartmann at lmu.de. Best wishes, Thomas Oberlies -- Prof. Dr. Thomas Oberlies Seminar f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Waldweg 26 37073 G?ttingen Tel.: 0551/39-13301 Fax: 0551/39-13192 email: indologi at gwdg.de --------------------------------- AKADEMIE DER WISSENSCHAFTEN ZU G?TTINGEN Die Akademie der Wissenschaften zu G?ttingen stellt voraussichtlich zum 01.07.2010 eine(n) wissenschaftliche(n) Mitarbeiter(in)(TV-L E 13/14) in der Arbeitsstelle Sanskrit-W?rterbuch in G?ttingen ein. Die Stelle ist befristet. Sie ist vorgesehen als Teilzeitbesch?ftigung mit mindestens 50% der regelm??igen w?chentlichen Arbeitszeit; ggf. kommt aber eine Aufstockung bis 100% in Betracht. Aufgabengebiet: Leitende Redaktion des Sanskrit-W?rterbuchs der buddhistischen Texte aus den Turfan-Funden; Mitarbeit an der Edition sowie Organisation, Koordinierung und Kontrolle der editorischen Arbeiten. Einstellungsvoraussetzungen: Voraussetzungen sind eine einschl?gige Promotion, Editionserfahrung und ausgewiesene Kenntnisse der buddhistischen Sanskrit-Literatur; erw?nscht sind Kenntnisse der tibetischen ?bersetzungsliteratur. Schwerbehinderte Bewerberinnen und Bewerber werden bei gleicher Eignung bevorzugt ber?cksichtigt. Bewerbungen von Frauen werden besonders begr??t. Bewerbungen sind mit den ?blichen Unterlagen (Bewerbungsschreiben, Tabellarischer Lebenslauf, Schriftenverzeichnis, Hochschul- und Promotionsabschluss) bis zum 30. November 2009 an den Kommissionsvorsitzenden zu richten: Herrn Prof. Dr. Jens-Uwe Hartmann, Universit?t M?nchen, Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie, Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1, 80539 M?nchen, oder elektronisch an juhartmann at lmu.de. From BrodbeckSP at CARDIFF.AC.UK Thu Oct 15 13:47:36 2009 From: BrodbeckSP at CARDIFF.AC.UK (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 09 14:47:36 +0100 Subject: Publication announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087699.23782.12438661855230547148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1978 Lines: 68 Dear colleagues, I am delighted to announce the publication of a monograph proceeding from the ?Epic Constructions? project at the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London (2004-2007): Simon Pearse Brodbeck, ?The Mahabharata Patriline: Gender, Culture, and the Royal Hereditary?. Farnham, Surrey: Ashgate Publishing, 2009. Pp. xiv + 329. ISBN 978-0-7546-6787-2 (hbk). ?55. The book is a chronological survey of the Sanskrit Mahabharata's central royal patriline. It explores the importance and implications of patrilineal maintenance within the royal culture depicted by the text, and shows how patrilineal memory comes up against the fact that in every generation a wife must be involved, with the consequent danger that the children might not sustain the memorial tradition of their paternal family. Studying the Mahabharata as an integral literary unit and as a story stretched over dozens of generations, the book casts particular light on the events of the more recent generations and suggests that the text's internal narrators are members of the family whose story they tell. CONTENTS List of figures; Preface; Sanskrit pronunciation guide; Map Part One: A Royal Patrilineal Model 1. Analogical deceptions 2. Wide shots 3. The Mahabharata patriline 4. Shraddha in the Mahabharata 5. Marriage and the heir 6. The royal hunt Part Two: The Distant Ancestry 7. Female links 8. Yayati 9. The Paurava stretch 10. Duhshanta, Shakuntala, and the Bharatas 11. Samvarana 12. Kuru Part Three: The Pandavas and their Proximate Ancestry 13. Shamtanu and Bhishma 14. Dhritarashtra and Pandu 15. The Pandavas Part Four: Janamejaya and the Sarpasatra 16. Parikshit 17. Janamejaya 18. Conclusion Appendices; Glossary; Bibliography; Index. ERRATA p. 143: ?TApatI? should read ?TapatI? p. 250: ?Shaunaka?s? should read ?Shaunaka? p. 267: ?uncle? should read ?cousin?. Simon Brodbeck School of Religious and Theological Studies Cardiff University Wales From jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 16 18:49:21 2009 From: jhakgirish at YAHOO.COM (girish jha) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 09 11:49:21 -0700 Subject: SHUBHA DIPAVALIH Message-ID: <161227087702.23782.7223747862641297376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 271 Lines: 17 Dear Honourable Indologists, ??? ?ubha? D?p?valih? ? Jyotis?mat? man?galad? hi Laks?m?h? Sa?c?rin??? d?pa?ikheva? nityam?. ?lokayant? bahirantara?ca Kriy?d vil?sam? vasatau sames??m?.// Regards Sincerely GIRISH? K.JHA, DEPT OF SANSKRIT,PATNA UNIVERSITY,INDIA From rt2036 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Oct 17 16:42:17 2009 From: rt2036 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Roy Tsohar) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 09 12:42:17 -0400 Subject: NAgArjuna on polysemy Message-ID: <161227087704.23782.18389203978843300362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 657 Lines: 19 Dear list members, I am currently working on some of Asanga's arguments in the vinizcayasaMgrahaNI, in which he uses polysemy to counter the notion of an invariable word-referent relation. Similar arguments appear in various textual sources, Buddhist as well as non Buddhist (for instance the NyAyasUtra and bhASya 2.1.56, etc). I recall reading of a similar argument made by NAgArjuna, possibly in an article of Johannes Bronkhorst citing Lindetner, but I could not find it. I would be grateful if anyone has a clue as to where this appears in NagArjuna or in which article it is cited. Many thanks, Roy Tzohar Columbia University Tel Aviv University From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Oct 20 11:01:58 2009 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 09 07:01:58 -0400 Subject: Unicode fonts for Ranjana/Lentsa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087709.23782.17034324095056273113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1002 Lines: 31 Dear McComas, Quoting McComas Taylor : > Can anyone recommend a Unicode font for Ranjana/Lentsa that will run > on a Windows system? I was looking into Ranjana fonts a couple of years ago. The short answer is that there are *some* fonts out there; the only ones I found were "RanjanaLipi" and "PrachalitLipi": http://www.ffonts.net/BISHOWSON2-Ranjana-Lipi-ISBN9993355933.font http://www.guthi.org/1html/regular_html/fonts.htm but the documentation was wanting. I know that Xenotype Technologies (http://www.xenotypetech.com) had been working on a Ranjana font, but had provisionally mapped the script to the Tibetan section of Unicode -- this was prior to Michael Everson's proposal for Ranjana to be included in Unicode in it's own section. See: http://www.unicode.org/pending/pending.html (specifically http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3649.pdf) I hope that helps, or is at least informative. Best, Paul Hackett Columbia University From tcoleman at COLORADOCOLLEGE.EDU Tue Oct 20 21:58:24 2009 From: tcoleman at COLORADOCOLLEGE.EDU (Tracy Coleman) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 09 15:58:24 -0600 Subject: Bhagavata-Purana Message-ID: <161227087711.23782.7351908460142904501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2215 Lines: 65 Indologists-- This is a delayed response to the email below from Arlo Griffiths regarding a "critical edition" of the Bhagavata Purana. I work on the Bhagavata, but this recent edition was news to me, I must admit. Can any of you provide an assessment of this edition, however briefly? Specifically, is it a "critical edition," and if so, in what sense (which and how many sources etc.)? Is it being received as *the* critical edition, like the Critical Edition of the MBh (leaving aside the fact that not all of you accept the latter)? How much does this new edition differ from other editions that scholars have recently used as a standard, such as J.L. Shastri's with Sridhara's commentary (Motilal 1983)? Thanks so much for any further info, which will help me at least until I can get said new edition. Tracy Coleman The Colorado College -----Original Message----- From: Indology on behalf of Arlo Griffiths Sent: Thu 7/30/2009 6:11 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Bhagavata-Purana There is a relatively recent critical edition published from Adhmedabad. My copy is in storage but this seems to be it (exported and slightly expanded from worldcat): SASTRI, H. G., SHELAT, B. K., & SASTRI, K. K. (1996-2002).Sribhagavatam: Srimad Bhagavata-mahapura?am : samik?ita avr?tti. Ahamadabada, Bho. Je. Adhyayana-Sa?sodhana Vidyabhavana. Best wishes from Medan, Arlo Griffiths > Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 23:46:01 +0200 > From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE > Subject: Bhagavata-Purana > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Greetings to all, > > I have been asked if there is some kind of a "standard" edition of the > Bhagavatapurana to rely upon (for citing and so on). Off hand, I > didn't know one that may be called a "standard". Or is there a > published version that serves as a "majority edition", at least? > > All the best > Peter Wyzlic > > -- > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > Abteilung f?r Indologie > Universit?t Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > 53113 Bonn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 20 23:04:19 2009 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 09 16:04:19 -0700 Subject: New Issue eJIM Message-ID: <161227087716.23782.16588009211676650423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 826 Lines: 9 Dear All, eJIM - the eJournal of Indian Medicine has just published its latest issue at?http://www.indianmedicine.nl. We invite you to review the Table of Contents here and then visit our web site to review articles and items of interest.?eJIM currently has more than 250 registered Readers.?Thanks for the continuing interest in our work,?Roelf?BarkhuisPublisher of eJIMinfo at barkhuis.nlwww.barkhuis.nl???eJIM - eJournal of Indian MedicineVol 2, No 2 (2009)Table of Contentshttp://bjournals.ub.rug.nl/index.php/ejim/issue/view/29?Articles--------Memoirs of Vaidyas. The Lives and Practices of Traditional Medical Doctors in Kerala, India (3) (25-51)????? Tsutomu Yamashita,????? P. Ram Manohar?Alchemical procedures and their implications for the chronology of medieval rasa??stra (53-65)??????Oliver Hellwig? From McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Tue Oct 20 10:20:39 2009 From: McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 09 21:20:39 +1100 Subject: Unicode fonts for Ranjana/Lentsa Message-ID: <161227087707.23782.16030112025510911043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 138 Lines: 10 Dear Colleagues Can anyone recommend a Unicode font for Ranjana/Lentsa that will run on a Windows system? Thanks in advance McComas From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 20 22:09:45 2009 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 09 22:09:45 +0000 Subject: Bhagavata-Purana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087713.23782.16122922875660333432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 328 Lines: 24 Friends: I have the X book of the critical edition and am going through it. On a related note can any one tell me if there is critical edition of Sur Sagar? I had heard that some one at the University of British Columbia was working on it. Regards. Harsha Harsha V. dehejia Ottawa, ON., Canada. From christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE Wed Oct 21 08:11:49 2009 From: christophe.vielle at UCLOUVAIN.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 09 10:11:49 +0200 Subject: Bhagavata-Purana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087718.23782.16484520847569983077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3131 Lines: 90 It is a true critical edition as useful as the MBh, Rm, Vi.s.nuP etc. ones. Now, like for the others (in which I have not included the so perfect "original" SkP critical edition... the only one really worthy of that name according to some), many remarks (on methodological principles or on peculiar points) can be made on it. Dealing with this Ahmedabad edition of the BhgP, I remember the critical ("carping"?) paper of Harunaga Isaacson "Grasping a hare's horn? Critically editing the Puraa.nas", presented at the XIIth WSC in Helsinki (2003), but it seems to have not been published yet. There should be some reviews of the Ahmedabad volumes but I have not listed them, and would be happy to hear about. With best wishes, Christophe Vielle >Indologists-- > >This is a delayed response to the email below from Arlo Griffiths >regarding a "critical edition" of the Bhagavata Purana. I work on the >Bhagavata, but this recent edition was news to me, I must admit. Can any >of you provide an assessment of this edition, however briefly? >Specifically, is it a "critical edition," and if so, in what sense (which >and how many sources etc.)? Is it being received as *the* critical >edition, like the Critical Edition of the MBh (leaving aside the fact that >not all of you accept the latter)? How much does this new edition differ >from other editions that scholars have recently used as a standard, such >as J.L. Shastri's with Sridhara's commentary (Motilal 1983)? > >Thanks so much for any further info, which will help me at least until I >can get said new edition. > >Tracy Coleman >The Colorado College > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Indology on behalf of Arlo Griffiths >Sent: Thu 7/30/2009 6:11 PM >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Re: Bhagavata-Purana > > >There is a relatively recent critical edition published from Adhmedabad. >My copy is in storage but this seems to be it (exported and slightly >expanded from worldcat): >SASTRI, H. G., SHELAT, B. K., & SASTRI, K. K. (1996-2002).Sribhagavatam: >Srimad Bhagavata-mahapura?am : samik?ita avr?tti. Ahamadabada, Bho. Je. >Adhyayana-Sa?sodhana Vidyabhavana. > >Best wishes from Medan, >Arlo Griffiths > >> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 23:46:01 +0200 >> From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE >> Subject: Bhagavata-Purana >> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >> >> Greetings to all, >> >> I have been asked if there is some kind of a "standard" edition of the >> Bhagavatapurana to rely upon (for citing and so on). Off hand, I >> didn't know one that may be called a "standard". Or is there a >> published version that serves as a "majority edition", at least? >> >> All the best >> Peter Wyzlic >> >> -- >> Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften >> Abteilung f?r Indologie >> Universit?t Bonn >> Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 >> 53113 Bonn > >_________________________________________________________________ >Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! >http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle http://belgianindology.lalibreblogs.be From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 21 17:07:07 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 09 19:07:07 +0200 Subject: upcoming London exhibition of Tibetan MSS Message-ID: <161227087721.23782.17572602583226739611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 270 Lines: 14 Forwarded message: --------------------------- Please click here to view our exhibition online: http://www.samfogg.com/cgi-bin/gallery-2.pl?type=exhibition&id=20091029a&style=2 Sam Fogg Ltd. 15D Clifford Street London W1S 4JZ Tel: 020 7534 2100 Fax: 020 7534 2122 From avandergeer at PLANET.NL Thu Oct 22 18:24:16 2009 From: avandergeer at PLANET.NL (Alexandra Vandergeer) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 09 20:24:16 +0200 Subject: medieval industries Message-ID: <161227087723.23782.9615290909143846208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 307 Lines: 8 Dear all, I'm not familiar with South Asian industries between 1000 and 1500 CE, does anybody have a good suggestion as to which literature to read on the subject and which recent articles to check? With industries I mean them all: wood, glass, textile, paper, metals and so on. Alexandra van der Geer From jenni.cover at URSYS.COM.AU Fri Oct 23 00:34:56 2009 From: jenni.cover at URSYS.COM.AU (Jennifer Cover) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 09 11:34:56 +1100 Subject: Source of verses Message-ID: <161227087725.23782.13871858867742304765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1839 Lines: 66 Greetings, Does anyone recognise some or all of these verses ? or parts of them (my translation included)? They are at the end of a section called upade?a?o?a?? in a text called Bodhas?ra. They may have been witten by the author, Narahari, but even if he did, often verses like this are based on traditional sources. Any suggestions as to where to begin looking for a possible source would be much appreciated. Since this text was written in the 18th century I am wondering if there is some Sufi/Urdu poetry influence. Kaishmir Shaivism is another possibility. atra ?lok?? | varayogy?si kaly??i na sth?syasi vara? vin? | vara??yo varast?d?gyo bhavedajar?mara? ||13|| na ???o?i vara? y?vatt?vatte kampate mana? | pa?c?nmahottsavairbhadre sv?mina? tva? vari?yasi ||14|| pare?a puru?e??dya ramasva vacan?nmama | sakhi pa?c?tsvata?citta? kuru yatr?dhika? sukham ||15|| y?ta? dina? na punareti nava? vayaste lajj?? vih?ya bhaja ta? rama??yar?pam | b?le para? puru?a e?a yad? sameta? svarge?a ki? kimu tad? n?sukhena v? te ||16|| Some verses on this. 13. O beautiful one, you are ready for a husband. You will not remain without a husband. The husband to be chosen should be one free from aging and death. 14. O auspicious one, as long as you do not hear about your husband your mind will be agitated. After (hearing) you will choose your husband with great rejoicing. 15. O friend, now, because of my words, delight with another man (the supreme puru?a). Later establish your mind, yourself, where there is superior happiness. 16. O youth, the past day will not come again. You have new youth. Abandon modesty and enjoy that beautiful one. When this supreme puru?a is met then what is the use of heaven or human happiness for you? Thankyou, Dr Jennifer Cover Sydney Australia From jataber at UNM.EDU Sat Oct 24 15:00:09 2009 From: jataber at UNM.EDU (John Taber) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 09 09:00:09 -0600 Subject: Job ad--a position in paradise? In-Reply-To: <000e01ca547e$6caf7110$5025128b@uni9b34de09f1e> Message-ID: <161227087730.23782.4408605884986085377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2073 Lines: 53 As Torella said, it's a paradise that everyone seems to want to escape from. Note that it's also for an assistant professor. By the way, Roy Perrett is coming to New Mexico in couple of weeks to give a talk. Hope you're having a good weekend. J. On Oct 24, 2009, at 1:48 AM, Eli Franco wrote: > UNIVERSITY OF HAWAI'I AT MANOA, Honolulu, HI. Assistant Professor, > Position Number 83528, Department of Philosophy, College of Arts and > Humanities. The UH-Manoa Department of Philosophy invites > applications for > a full-time, 9-month, tenure-track, Assistant Professor position, > beginning > August 1, 2010, subject to position clearance and availability of > funds. > Minimum Qualifications: Ph.D. in Philosophy (ABDs will be considered > provided that all degree requirements are completed by August 1, > 2010). > AOS: EITHER (1) South Asian Buddhist philosophy (including > competency in > Sanskrit) OR (2) ancient Greek philosophy (including competency in > ancient > Greek). Desirable Qualifications: Demonstrated excellence in > teaching and > research; one or more years' prior experience as an assistant > professor at > a research university. AOC: Ethical theory and social/political > philosophy, continental philosophy, or aesthetics; ability to teach > introductory formal logic. Duties: Teach courses in areas of > specialization and competence, dissertation supervision, service on > Department committees, and other duties as assigned by the Chair. Pay > range: Salary commensurate with qualifications and experience. To > apply: > Submit cover letter, c.v., three current letters of recommendation, > graduate transcripts, a brief writing sample, and evidence of teaching > excellence. Application address: Search Committee, Department of > Philosophy, 2530 Dole St., Honolulu HI 96822. For additional > information > contact Kenneth Kipnis, Chair, (808) 956-8649, . > Review of applications will begin on November 23, 2009 and continue > until > position is filled. AA/EEO. > > > From franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Sat Oct 24 07:48:49 2009 From: franco at RZ.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (Eli Franco) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 09 09:48:49 +0200 Subject: Job ad--a position in paradise? In-Reply-To: <694725.23766.qm@web43131.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227087727.23782.5972062201164905488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1682 Lines: 30 UNIVERSITY OF HAWAI'I AT MANOA, Honolulu, HI. Assistant Professor, Position Number 83528, Department of Philosophy, College of Arts and Humanities. The UH-Manoa Department of Philosophy invites applications for a full-time, 9-month, tenure-track, Assistant Professor position, beginning August 1, 2010, subject to position clearance and availability of funds. Minimum Qualifications: Ph.D. in Philosophy (ABDs will be considered provided that all degree requirements are completed by August 1, 2010). AOS: EITHER (1) South Asian Buddhist philosophy (including competency in Sanskrit) OR (2) ancient Greek philosophy (including competency in ancient Greek). Desirable Qualifications: Demonstrated excellence in teaching and research; one or more years' prior experience as an assistant professor at a research university. AOC: Ethical theory and social/political philosophy, continental philosophy, or aesthetics; ability to teach introductory formal logic. Duties: Teach courses in areas of specialization and competence, dissertation supervision, service on Department committees, and other duties as assigned by the Chair. Pay range: Salary commensurate with qualifications and experience. To apply: Submit cover letter, c.v., three current letters of recommendation, graduate transcripts, a brief writing sample, and evidence of teaching excellence. Application address: Search Committee, Department of Philosophy, 2530 Dole St., Honolulu HI 96822. For additional information contact Kenneth Kipnis, Chair, (808) 956-8649, . Review of applications will begin on November 23, 2009 and continue until position is filled. AA/EEO. From jataber at UNM.EDU Sat Oct 24 16:36:12 2009 From: jataber at UNM.EDU (John Taber) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 09 10:36:12 -0600 Subject: goof Message-ID: <161227087732.23782.7412134707634376634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 111 Lines: 7 My apologies for sending a personal email intended for Eli Franco out to the entire listserv! John Taber From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Sun Oct 25 03:53:59 2009 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 09 23:53:59 -0400 Subject: EJVS Laurasian academy? In-Reply-To: <000e01ca547e$6caf7110$5025128b@uni9b34de09f1e> Message-ID: <161227087735.23782.1812629780422846405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 298 Lines: 13 Dear List, I have been trying to download articles recently from EJVS, but I get transferred to some website called the Laurasian Academy instead. It appears to be some online "academy," with no obvious connection to EJVS. Can someone help with this? Thanks in advance, George Thompson From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Oct 25 11:16:14 2009 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 09 07:16:14 -0400 Subject: EJVS Laurasian academy? In-Reply-To: <4AE3CBD7.40408@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227087737.23782.17733919468376072757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 926 Lines: 40 The Laurasian website was down for some days. It is functioning again. There is a clear link to EJVS at the bottom of the Laurasian page. It is working as well. Cheers, MW. On Oct 24, 2009, at 11:53 PM, George Thompson wrote: > Dear List, > > I have been trying to download articles recently from EJVS, but I > get transferred to some website called the Laurasian Academy > instead. It appears to be some online "academy," with no obvious > connection to EJVS. Can someone help with this? > > Thanks in advance, > > George Thompson ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Oct 26 21:26:55 2009 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 09 17:26:55 -0400 Subject: A. Piatigorsky passed away Message-ID: <161227087740.23782.4588279294319968779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 919 Lines: 43 Dear All, I transmit sad news, received via our PhD candidate, N. Yanchevskaya (ABD). MW ---------------------------------- Alexander Piatigorsky, the renowned Russian philosopher, writer, and scholar of Buddhism and Indian philosophy, has passed away yesterday, October 25, 2009, in London at the age of 80. Here are announcements and obituaries in Russian: ----------------- Nataliya Yanchevskaya Dept. of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Harvard University ============ Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571; my direct line: 617- 496 2990 From McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Tue Oct 27 02:47:17 2009 From: McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 09 13:47:17 +1100 Subject: 'Plants of the Meghaduta' multimedia website Message-ID: <161227087742.23782.11095289891342887115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 616 Lines: 18 Dear friends Some time ago, I posted a link to Tomomi Sato's Meghaduta multimedia website. At that stage, the site only run under Internet Explorer. Tomomi now has a version of the site that runs well in Firefox: http://meghaduta.awardspace.info/ We would be delighted if you would care to visit it. This was Tomomi's 4th year project on flowers and trees of the Meghaduta. You will find her own English and Japanese translations, artworks and beautiful sung renditions of selected verses. I'm sure Tomomi would love to hear some feedback. Her email address is: u4238655 at anu.edu.au Yours McComas Taylor From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Oct 28 14:21:02 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 09 15:21:02 +0100 Subject: GRETIL update #359 Message-ID: <161227087744.23782.16947976045611058721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 618 Lines: 23 GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Somadeva: Kathasaritsagara, Vetalapancavimsatika: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#SomKath_Vet (plain text and analytic version) __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 29 11:31:24 2009 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 09 11:31:24 +0000 Subject: medieval industries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087746.23782.14043083949910143396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 495 Lines: 17 The publications of the late Oppi Untracht are classics of this field, and include materials on India. Best, Dominik Wujastyk On Thu, 22 Oct 2009, Alexandra Vandergeer wrote: > Dear all, > > I'm not familiar with South Asian industries between 1000 and 1500 CE, does anybody have a good suggestion as to which literature to read on the subject and which recent articles to check? With industries I mean them all: wood, glass, textile, paper, metals and so on. > > Alexandra van der Geer > From rajam at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 29 22:54:53 2009 From: rajam at EARTHLINK.NET (rajam) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 09 15:54:53 -0700 Subject: 'Plants of the Meghaduta' multimedia website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087748.23782.16338160819312510109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2245 Lines: 63 Dear Dr. Taylor, I'm sure I'm repeating here what others may have already spoken about Tomomi's multimedia work on the flowers and trees of the Meghaduta. However, one more positive feedback from someone enthusiastically supporting Tomomi's effort won't hurt, I thought. Tomomi's multimedia work on the flowers and trees of the Meghaduta is unique, as far as I know, and is extremely impressive, delightful, and informative! Such work would provide, if it hasn't already, an insight into understanding the native plants and how those plants formed an integral part of one's life in ancient times. A similar study of the various plants/flowers mentioned in ancient Tamil poetry, for example in the long list of flowers mentioned in the poem called the *kuRincippATTu,* would be really educational, I think. And, especially with the new awareness of *health* everywhere in the present century, such studies may remind people to understand the health benefits of plants and flowers. The only different comment I have is about Tomomi's presentation style--the graphical user interface (GUI), the look/design of the Web site, etc.-- which I'd be happy to discuss separately since such topic may not be of interest to the main stream audience of this list. Please feel free to contact me at if you'd like to hear my views on the UI of Tomomi's Web site. I have some experience in the IT world and in providing feedback on software UI. Thanks and regards, V.S. Rajam On Oct 26, 2009, at 7:47 PM, McComas Taylor wrote: > Dear friends > > Some time ago, I posted a link to Tomomi Sato's Meghaduta > multimedia website. At that stage, the site only run under Internet > Explorer. Tomomi now has a version of the site that runs well in > Firefox: > > http://meghaduta.awardspace.info/ > > We would be delighted if you would care to visit it. This was > Tomomi's 4th year project on flowers and trees of the Meghaduta. > You will find her own English and Japanese translations, artworks > and beautiful sung renditions of selected verses. > > I'm sure Tomomi would love to hear some feedback. Her email address > is: > > u4238655 at anu.edu.au > > Yours > > McComas Taylor From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Oct 31 14:04:21 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 07:04:21 -0700 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <8CA1900E-45FF-4842-83EA-25F4589F72D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227087753.23782.7943371841533802823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1003 Lines: 35 From ParipaTal 3, about the 3rd or 4th century BCE: Your wonder is such that you are counted through four kinds of eons: zero, quarter, half, one, two three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine! Black one with red eyes! White one with black eyes! Green one with golden eyes! Dark one with green eyes! George Hart On Oct 30, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > Dear all, > > Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour > in each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? > > BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m > tanuu.h > BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m > gata.h > > I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the > Mahaabhaarata, e.g. > > 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge raktataa.m > 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam > abhyaagata.h > > Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? > > Dominic Goodall From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Oct 31 14:29:49 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 07:29:49 -0700 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <0B1854C6-BEDF-4B6E-B0DD-728B0493BDEE@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087756.23782.14667674894580792393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1519 Lines: 45 I neglected to mention that this is from a translation I made together with V.S. Rajam quite a few years ago. It is well accepted that the Bhaagavata was written by a Tamilian who knew the Tamil Srivaisnava tradition and texts. From reading the 10th book many years ago and looking over these poems, it strikes me that the author was very likely familiar with the great poems of the ParipaaTal also. George Hart On Oct 31, 2009, at 7:04 AM, George Hart wrote: > From ParipaTal 3, about the 3rd or 4th century BCE: > > Your wonder is such that you are counted > through four kinds of eons: zero, quarter, half, one, two > three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine! Black one > with red eyes! White one with black eyes! Green one > with golden eyes! Dark one with green eyes! > > George Hart > > On Oct 30, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour >> in each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >> >> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m >> tanuu.h >> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m >> gata.h >> >> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the >> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >> >> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge raktataa.m >> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >> abhyaagata.h >> >> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >> >> Dominic Goodall From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Oct 31 15:53:40 2009 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 08:53:40 -0700 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <6F6B67F03E334E889A7E5BE24A4D276D@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <161227087765.23782.8501904058856481716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2202 Lines: 77 Of course it's CE, not BCE. None of the Tamil works can be dated to BCE -- though we do have inscriptions from the first couple centuries BCE. The Tamil is paaz ena kaal ena paaku ena onRu ena pari.3-77 iraNTu ena muunRu ena naanku ena aintu ena pari.3-78 aaRu ena eezu ena eTTu ena toNTu ena pari.3-79 naalvakai uuzi eN naviRRum ciRappinai pari.3-80 ce kaN kaari karu kaN veLLai pari.3-81 pon kaN paccai pai kaN maaal pari.3-82 (Malten's transcription) "Black" is from kaari, ultimately from karu, the standard word for "black." "Dark" is maal, which can mean "blackness" or "greatness," "great man," "Visnu." "Dark one with green eyes" could also mean "Green-eyed Visnu!" -- which might make more sense, as "black" has already been used. The word for "green" can also mean "yellow." George Hart On Oct 31, 2009, at 8:00 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > I'm curious as to what are the words for "black" and "dark" in > this typology? > The usual colors cropping up in such typologies are white, red, > yellow, and blue/green/black. > > JK > ============= > > On Behalf Of George Hart > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 8:04 AM > > > From ParipaTal 3, about the 3rd or 4th century BCE: > > Your wonder is such that you are counted through four kinds of > eons: zero, quarter, half, one, two three, four, five, six, > seven, eight, nine! Black one with red eyes! White one with > black eyes! Green one with golden eyes! Dark one with green > eyes! > > George Hart > > On Oct 30, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes > colour in >> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >> >> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato > 'nuyuga.m >> tanuu.h >> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m > k.r.s.nataa.m >> gata.h >> >> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of > the >> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >> >> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge > raktataa.m >> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >> abhyaagata.h >> >> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >> >> Dominic Goodall From jkirk at SPRO.NET Sat Oct 31 15:00:02 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 09:00:02 -0600 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <0B1854C6-BEDF-4B6E-B0DD-728B0493BDEE@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087762.23782.14734158169517519384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1259 Lines: 52 I'm curious as to what are the words for "black" and "dark" in this typology? The usual colors cropping up in such typologies are white, red, yellow, and blue/green/black. JK ============= On Behalf Of George Hart Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 8:04 AM From ParipaTal 3, about the 3rd or 4th century BCE: Your wonder is such that you are counted through four kinds of eons: zero, quarter, half, one, two three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine! Black one with red eyes! White one with black eyes! Green one with golden eyes! Dark one with green eyes! George Hart On Oct 30, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > Dear all, > > Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour in > each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? > > BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m > tanuu.h > BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m > gata.h > > I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the > Mahaabhaarata, e.g. > > 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge raktataa.m > 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam > abhyaagata.h > > Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? > > Dominic Goodall From dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 31 06:10:29 2009 From: dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM (Dominic Goodall) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 11:40:29 +0530 Subject: yugas and colours Message-ID: <161227087751.23782.14905763695248645005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 592 Lines: 22 Dear all, Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour in each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m tanuu.h BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m gata.h I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the Mahaabhaarata, e.g. 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge raktataa.m 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam abhyaagata.h Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? Dominic Goodall From jkirk at SPRO.NET Sat Oct 31 17:51:07 2009 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 11:51:07 -0600 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <86E19A26-D5CE-4A89-A9F6-A04C1512BE34@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087771.23782.11408232389058185345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2228 Lines: 89 Thanks. JK ================= Of course it's CE, not BCE. None of the Tamil works can be dated to BCE -- though we do have inscriptions from the first couple centuries BCE. The Tamil is paaz ena kaal ena paaku ena onRu ena pari.3-77 iraNTu ena muunRu ena naanku ena aintu ena pari.3-78 aaRu ena eezu ena eTTu ena toNTu ena pari.3-79 naalvakai uuzi eN naviRRum ciRappinai pari.3-80 ce kaN kaari karu kaN veLLai pari.3-81 pon kaN paccai pai kaN maaal pari.3-82 (Malten's transcription) "Black" is from kaari, ultimately from karu, the standard word for "black." "Dark" is maal, which can mean "blackness" or "greatness," "great man," "Visnu." "Dark one with green eyes" could also mean "Green-eyed Visnu!" -- which might make more sense, as "black" has already been used. The word for "green" can also mean "yellow." George Hart On Oct 31, 2009, at 8:00 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > I'm curious as to what are the words for "black" and "dark" in this > typology? > The usual colors cropping up in such typologies are white, red, > yellow, and blue/green/black. > > JK > ============= > > On Behalf Of George Hart > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 8:04 AM > > > From ParipaTal 3, about the 3rd or 4th century BCE: > > Your wonder is such that you are counted through four kinds of > eons: zero, quarter, half, one, two three, four, five, six, seven, > eight, nine! Black one with red eyes! White one with black eyes! > Green one with golden eyes! Dark one with green eyes! > > George Hart > > On Oct 30, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes > colour in >> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >> >> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato > 'nuyuga.m >> tanuu.h >> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m > k.r.s.nataa.m >> gata.h >> >> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of > the >> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >> >> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge > raktataa.m >> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >> abhyaagata.h >> >> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >> >> Dominic Goodall From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Oct 31 20:30:24 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 13:30:24 -0700 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <4AEC900F.60205@uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227087779.23782.2571387029586329572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1562 Lines: 67 The colors in 3.148, mentioned by Harunaga, are: Krta: white Treta: red Dvapara: yellow Kali: black But there is a different version in Mbh 3.187.31: Krta: white Treta: yellow Dvapara: red Kali: black Where the colors for Treta and Dvapara are reversed. I discuss this in my book /The Mahabharata and the Yugas/ (pp. 103, 114-116). Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann _____ on 10/31/2009 12:29 PM Harunaga Isaacson wrote: > And it is in the MBh, not only in passages excluded from the critical > edition (such as that which DG > quoted), but also in 3.148 ("sukla in vs. 16, rakta in 23, piita in > 26, and k.r.s.na in 33). > > Harunaga Isaacson > > > Peter Bisschop wrote: >> It is found in the Vi.s.nudharma (edition R. Gruenendahl): >> 104.27 ("sukla), 104.35 (rakta), 104.38 (piita), 104.45 (k.r.s.na) >> >> Peter Bisschop >> >> Quoting Dominic Goodall : >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour in >>> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >>> >>> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m >>> tanuu.h >>> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m >>> gata.h >>> >>> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the >>> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >>> >>> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge raktataa.m >>> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >>> abhyaagata.h >>> >>> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >>> >>> Dominic Goodall >> >> >> > > From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Sat Oct 31 14:38:50 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 15:38:50 +0100 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <0B1854C6-BEDF-4B6E-B0DD-728B0493BDEE@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087759.23782.11561938535016148448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1354 Lines: 51 Dear George, I suppose this is a /lapsus calami/ and you meant "CE" (and not "BC"). Zvelebil, in his /Lexicon of Tamil Literature/ [1995:528], summarizing discussions on the date of Parip??al, writes: "Prob. date between latter half of 4th and first half of the 6th c." Best wishes -- Jean-Luc George Hart a ?crit : > From ParipaTal 3, about the 3rd or 4th century BCE: > > Your wonder is such that you are counted > through four kinds of eons: zero, quarter, half, one, two > three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine! Black one > with red eyes! White one with black eyes! Green one > with golden eyes! Dark one with green eyes! > > George Hart > > On Oct 30, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour in >> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >> >> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m tanuu.h >> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m >> gata.h >> >> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the >> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >> >> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge raktataa.m >> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >> abhyaagata.h >> >> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >> >> Dominic Goodall > From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Oct 31 23:00:22 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 16:00:22 -0700 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <4AECA794.2010707@columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227087785.23782.17499727396975470576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2559 Lines: 92 This is interesting. The /Vayu Purana/ (1.32.14-19) had already said that kAla (time) had four faces, which are the yugas. It doesn't associate them with the directions, but it does mention the colors. Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann _____ on 10/31/2009 2:09 PM Tenzin Bob Thurman wrote: > Just noticed this discussion, and it brought to mind the not unrelated > fact that the faces of the Buddha Kaalachakra and the dirctional > colors in his mandala palace are precisely those, front-east black, > right-south red, back-west yellow, left-north white. ince his body is > supposed to represent all the "parts" of time, fitting that his faces > represent the yugas. > > That mandala is the only one in the Tibetan collection that I know of > that uses those colors for the faces and directions. > > Bob Thurman > > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >> The colors in 3.148, mentioned by Harunaga, are: >> >> Krta: white >> Treta: red >> Dvapara: yellow >> Kali: black >> >> But there is a different version in Mbh 3.187.31: >> >> Krta: white >> Treta: yellow >> Dvapara: red >> Kali: black >> >> Where the colors for Treta and Dvapara are reversed. >> >> I discuss this in my book /The Mahabharata and the Yugas/ (pp. 103, >> 114-116). >> >> Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann >> _____ >> >> on 10/31/2009 12:29 PM Harunaga Isaacson wrote: >>> And it is in the MBh, not only in passages excluded from the >>> critical edition (such as that which DG >>> quoted), but also in 3.148 ("sukla in vs. 16, rakta in 23, piita in >>> 26, and k.r.s.na in 33). >>> >>> Harunaga Isaacson >>> >>> >>> Peter Bisschop wrote: >>>> It is found in the Vi.s.nudharma (edition R. Gruenendahl): >>>> 104.27 ("sukla), 104.35 (rakta), 104.38 (piita), 104.45 (k.r.s.na) >>>> >>>> Peter Bisschop >>>> >>>> Quoting Dominic Goodall : >>>> >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour in >>>>> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >>>>> >>>>> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m >>>>> tanuu.h >>>>> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m >>>>> gata.h >>>>> >>>>> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the >>>>> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >>>>> >>>>> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge raktataa.m >>>>> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >>>>> abhyaagata.h >>>>> >>>>> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >>>>> >>>>> Dominic Goodall >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > From reimann at BERKELEY.EDU Sat Oct 31 23:13:20 2009 From: reimann at BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 16:13:20 -0700 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <790675.42435.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227087789.23782.634430945091858527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3530 Lines: 108 But Mitchiner dates the Yuga Purana to the 1st century BCE, not the 5th century CE. Pingree dates it to the same century as Mitchiner, or possibly to the following one. Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann _____ on 10/31/2009 10:11 AM Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > It is all right that the century belongs to the CE. Still a southern claim to the origin of the idea is not, perhaps, reduced by that. I checked the Yugapur??a (edMitchiner, AS,Calcutta1986 BI 312).but did not find any reference to the colour of the yugas. That means the absence of the idea in the North till the 5th Cent.CE (YP so dated/Mitchiner). The extant Bh?gavata could not have been redacted in the North. Its flowery classical k?vya style was a dead thing in the North during the time when it is supposed to have been redacted from a lost older Bh?gavata. The South can make a strong claim. > Best > DB > > ________________________________ > From: George Hart > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Sent: Sat, 31 October, 2009 9:23:40 PM > Subject: Re: yugas and colours > > Of course it's CE, not BCE. None of the Tamil works can be dated to BCE -- though we do have inscriptions from the first couple centuries BCE. > > The Tamil is > > paaz ena kaal ena paaku ena onRu ena pari.3-77 > iraNTu ena muunRu ena naanku ena aintu ena pari.3-78 > aaRu ena eezu ena eTTu ena toNTu ena pari.3-79 > naalvakai uuzi eN naviRRum ciRappinai pari.3-80 > ce kaN kaari karu kaN veLLai pari.3-81 > pon kaN paccai pai kaN maaal pari.3-82 > > (Malten's transcription) > > "Black" is from kaari, ultimately from karu, the standard word for "black." "Dark" is maal, which can mean "blackness" or "greatness," "great man," "Visnu." "Dark one with green eyes" could also mean "Green-eyed Visnu!" -- which might make more sense, as "black" has already been used. The word for "green" can also mean "yellow." > > George Hart > > On Oct 31, 2009, at 8:00 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > > >> I'm curious as to what are the words for "black" and "dark" in >> this typology? >> The usual colors cropping up in such typologies are white, red, >> yellow, and blue/green/black. >> >> JK >> ============= >> >> On Behalf Of George Hart >> Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 8:04 AM >> >> >> From ParipaTal 3, about the 3rd or 4th century BCE: >> >> Your wonder is such that you are counted through four kinds of >> eons: zero, quarter, half, one, two three, four, five, six, >> seven, eight, nine! Black one with red eyes! White one with >> black eyes! Green one with golden eyes! Dark one with green >> eyes! >> >> George Hart >> >> On Oct 30, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: >> >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes >>> >> colour in >> >>> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >>> >>> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato >>> >> 'nuyuga.m >> >>> tanuu.h >>> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m >>> >> k.r.s.nataa.m >> >>> gata.h >>> >>> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of >>> >> the >> >>> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >>> >>> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge >>> >> raktataa.m >> >>> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >>> abhyaagata.h >>> >>> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >>> >>> Dominic Goodall >>> > > > > Try the new Yahoo! India Homepage. Click here. http://in.yahoo.com/trynew > > From tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Oct 31 21:09:40 2009 From: tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Tenzin Bob Thurman) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 17:09:40 -0400 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <4AEC9E60.5030803@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087782.23782.17962171056682218953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2185 Lines: 83 Just noticed this discussion, and it brought to mind the not unrelated fact that the faces of the Buddha Kaalachakra and the dirctional colors in his mandala palace are precisely those, front-east black, right-south red, back-west yellow, left-north white. ince his body is supposed to represent all the "parts" of time, fitting that his faces represent the yugas. That mandala is the only one in the Tibetan collection that I know of that uses those colors for the faces and directions. Bob Thurman Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > The colors in 3.148, mentioned by Harunaga, are: > > Krta: white > Treta: red > Dvapara: yellow > Kali: black > > But there is a different version in Mbh 3.187.31: > > Krta: white > Treta: yellow > Dvapara: red > Kali: black > > Where the colors for Treta and Dvapara are reversed. > > I discuss this in my book /The Mahabharata and the Yugas/ (pp. 103, > 114-116). > > Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann > _____ > > on 10/31/2009 12:29 PM Harunaga Isaacson wrote: >> And it is in the MBh, not only in passages excluded from the critical >> edition (such as that which DG >> quoted), but also in 3.148 ("sukla in vs. 16, rakta in 23, piita in >> 26, and k.r.s.na in 33). >> >> Harunaga Isaacson >> >> >> Peter Bisschop wrote: >>> It is found in the Vi.s.nudharma (edition R. Gruenendahl): >>> 104.27 ("sukla), 104.35 (rakta), 104.38 (piita), 104.45 (k.r.s.na) >>> >>> Peter Bisschop >>> >>> Quoting Dominic Goodall : >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour in >>>> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >>>> >>>> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m >>>> tanuu.h >>>> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m >>>> gata.h >>>> >>>> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the >>>> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >>>> >>>> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge raktataa.m >>>> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >>>> abhyaagata.h >>>> >>>> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >>>> >>>> Dominic Goodall >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Oct 31 23:08:31 2009 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 19:08:31 -0400 Subject: yugas and colours Message-ID: <161227087787.23782.315315784319649240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 4855 Lines: 126 We have to distinguish between the date of individual poems and the date of the anthologies. The chronology of Classical Tamil Poetry and the books of Tolkappiyam need to be revisited in light of new evidence. Iravatham Mahadevan's dating/staging of Tamil Brahmi I and Tamil Brahmi II in his "Early Tamil Epigraphy" has been revised now. Mahadevan also agrees with the revision. See p. 213 in "Pottery Inscriptions of Tamil Nadu - A Comparative View" by Y. Subbarayalu in ,Airavati, Varalaaru.com, 2008, p.209-248. Subbarayalu also says Tamil Brahmi II and Tamil Brahmi III need to be considered as belonging to the same stage. Subbarayalu's note "If the TB-I/TB-II classification loses its chronological basis, then Mahadevan's dates given to the rock inscriptions, at least to some, on the basis of this classification would need some revision. For instance, the Jambai inscription of Atiyan Nedumaan A~nci, which is assigned by Mahadevan (2003, p.399) to first century CE should be more appropriately put in about 200 BCE or even earlier. However his overall dating does not suffer as it is supported by other pieces of evidence" is very important for dating the Tamil poems. Atiyan Nedumaan A~nci is the hero praised in many Classical Tamil poems. Also, in light of the Tamil confederacy mentioned in Hathigumpha inscription (1st century BCE) as well as suggested by Akam 31, which I had discussed in the list earlier, we have to evaluate the possibility of some poems to be dated at least to the first century BCE. (We can safely disregard the theory of Pandyan kings organizing a number of poets to cook up/invent Classical Tamil poetry in the 9th/10th century CE.) With respect to the dating of Tolkappiyam, in his "Early Tamil Epigraphy", Mahadevan had failed to take into account an important paper by Rajam Ramamurti,in IJDL."The Relevance of the Terms mey, o_r_ru, and pu.l.li to the System of Tamil Morpho-Phonemics," IJDL, V. 9, no. 1, 1982, 167-183. I pointed this out during Mahadevan's book release event at Harvard in 2003. .The point is the date of at least the first book of Tolkappiyam should most probably precede any occurrence of the dotted consonant in epigraphy. (I have a draft of a note discussing this but never got around to publishing it.). . It will be interesting to see if this reevaluation of dating of Classical Tamil poems has any impact on the date of individual poems in Paripaa.tal too. Regards, Palaniappan In a message dated 10/31/2009 10:54:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, glhart at BERKELEY.EDU writes: Of course it's CE, not BCE. None of the Tamil works can be dated to BCE -- though we do have inscriptions from the first couple centuries BCE. The Tamil is paaz ena kaal ena paaku ena onRu ena pari.3-77 iraNTu ena muunRu ena naanku ena aintu ena pari.3-78 aaRu ena eezu ena eTTu ena toNTu ena pari.3-79 naalvakai uuzi eN naviRRum ciRappinai pari.3-80 ce kaN kaari karu kaN veLLai pari.3-81 pon kaN paccai pai kaN maaal pari.3-82 (Malten's transcription) "Black" is from kaari, ultimately from karu, the standard word for "black." "Dark" is maal, which can mean "blackness" or "greatness," "great man," "Visnu." "Dark one with green eyes" could also mean "Green-eyed Visnu!" -- which might make more sense, as "black" has already been used. The word for "green" can also mean "yellow." George Hart On Oct 31, 2009, at 8:00 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > I'm curious as to what are the words for "black" and "dark" in > this typology? > The usual colors cropping up in such typologies are white, red, > yellow, and blue/green/black. > > JK > ============= > > On Behalf Of George Hart > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 8:04 AM > > > From ParipaTal 3, about the 3rd or 4th century BCE: > > Your wonder is such that you are counted through four kinds of > eons: zero, quarter, half, one, two three, four, five, six, > seven, eight, nine! Black one with red eyes! White one with > black eyes! Green one with golden eyes! Dark one with green > eyes! > > George Hart > > On Oct 30, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes > colour in >> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >> >> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato > 'nuyuga.m >> tanuu.h >> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m > k.r.s.nataa.m >> gata.h >> >> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of > the >> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >> >> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge > raktataa.m >> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >> abhyaagata.h >> >> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >> >> Dominic Goodall From Peter.Bisschop at ED.AC.UK Sat Oct 31 19:13:06 2009 From: Peter.Bisschop at ED.AC.UK (Peter Bisschop) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 19:13:06 +0000 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <8CA1900E-45FF-4842-83EA-25F4589F72D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227087774.23782.602257112282969956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 928 Lines: 33 It is found in the Vi.s.nudharma (edition R. Gruenendahl): 104.27 ("sukla), 104.35 (rakta), 104.38 (piita), 104.45 (k.r.s.na) Peter Bisschop Quoting Dominic Goodall : > Dear all, > > Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour in > each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? > > BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m tanuu.h > BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m gata.h > > I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the > Mahaabhaarata, e.g. > > 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge raktataa.m > 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam abhyaagata.h > > Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? > > Dominic Goodall -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Sat Oct 31 19:29:19 2009 From: Harunaga.Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 20:29:19 +0100 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <20091031191306.fvn70z3hpcco0o04@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227087776.23782.2334012425307442992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1340 Lines: 54 And it is in the MBh, not only in passages excluded from the critical edition (such as that which DG quoted), but also in 3.148 ("sukla in vs. 16, rakta in 23, piita in 26, and k.r.s.na in 33). Harunaga Isaacson Peter Bisschop wrote: > It is found in the Vi.s.nudharma (edition R. Gruenendahl): > 104.27 ("sukla), 104.35 (rakta), 104.38 (piita), 104.45 (k.r.s.na) > > Peter Bisschop > > Quoting Dominic Goodall : > >> Dear all, >> >> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes colour in >> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >> >> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato 'nuyuga.m tanuu.h >> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m k.r.s.nataa.m >> gata.h >> >> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of the >> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >> >> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge raktataa.m >> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >> abhyaagata.h >> >> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >> >> Dominic Goodall > > > -- Prof. Dr. Harunaga Isaacson Universit?t Hamburg Asien-Afrika-Institut Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Alsterterrasse 1 D-20354 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0)40 42838-3382 Alternative email: harunagaisaacson at gmail.com From dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN Sat Oct 31 17:11:27 2009 From: dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 09 22:41:27 +0530 Subject: yugas and colours In-Reply-To: <86E19A26-D5CE-4A89-A9F6-A04C1512BE34@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227087768.23782.12201289708399506916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3065 Lines: 85 It is all right that the century belongs to the CE. Still?a southern?claim to the origin of the idea is not, perhaps, reduced by that. I checked the Yugapur??a (edMitchiner, AS,Calcutta1986 BI 312).but did not find any reference to the colour of the yugas. That means the absence of the idea?in the North till the 5th Cent.CE (YP so dated/Mitchiner). The extant Bh?gavata could not have been redacted in the North. Its flowery classical k?vya style was a dead thing in the North during the time when it is supposed to have been redacted from?a?lost older Bh?gavata. The South can make a strong claim. Best DB ________________________________ From: George Hart To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Sat, 31 October, 2009 9:23:40 PM Subject: Re: yugas and colours Of course it's CE, not BCE.? None of the Tamil works can be dated to BCE -- though we do have inscriptions from the first couple centuries BCE. The Tamil is paaz ena kaal ena paaku ena onRu ena pari.3-77 iraNTu ena muunRu ena naanku ena aintu ena pari.3-78 aaRu ena eezu ena eTTu ena toNTu ena pari.3-79 naalvakai uuzi eN naviRRum ciRappinai pari.3-80 ce kaN kaari karu kaN veLLai pari.3-81 pon kaN paccai pai kaN maaal pari.3-82 (Malten's transcription) "Black" is from kaari, ultimately from karu, the standard word for "black."? "Dark" is maal, which can mean "blackness" or "greatness," "great man," "Visnu."? "Dark one with green eyes" could also mean "Green-eyed Visnu!" -- which might make more sense, as "black" has already been used.? The word for "green" can also mean "yellow." George Hart On Oct 31, 2009, at 8:00 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > I'm curious as to what are the words for "black" and "dark" in > this typology? > The usual colors cropping up in such typologies are white, red, > yellow, and blue/green/black. > > JK > ============= > > On Behalf Of George Hart > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 8:04 AM > > > From ParipaTal 3, about the 3rd or 4th century BCE: > > Your wonder is such that you are counted through four kinds of > eons: zero, quarter, half, one, two three, four, five, six, > seven, eight, nine!? Black one with red eyes!? White one with > black eyes!? Green one with golden eyes!? Dark one with green > eyes! > > George Hart > > On Oct 30, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Can anybody tell me whether the notion that Vi.s.nu changes > colour in >> each yuga predates the Bhaagavatapuraa.na? >> >> BhP_10.08.013/1 aasan var.naas trayo hy asya g.rh.nato > 'nuyuga.m >> tanuu.h >> BhP_10.08.013/3 "suklo raktas tathaa piita idaanii.m > k.r.s.nataa.m >> gata.h >> >> I find it in a few passages excluded from the critical text of > the >> Mahaabhaarata, e.g. >> >> 13*0002_01 ya.h "svetatvam upaagata.h k.rtayuge tretaayuge > raktataa.m >> 13*0002_02 yugme ya.h kapila.h kalau sa bhagavaan k.r.s.natvam >> abhyaagata.h >> >> Does anybody know of any demonstrably early references? >> >> Dominic Goodall Try the new Yahoo! India Homepage. Click here. http://in.yahoo.com/trynew From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Sep 2 11:01:42 2009 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 09 06:01:42 -0500 Subject: ayurveda etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087524.23782.15575754547443633282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 333 Lines: 15 Dear Dom, 1. Thanks for the epilepsy info, you rascal. An Ayurvedic remedy for jet lag would really have been helpful. 2. Today I got an email from Cordelia saying she has become a bass player, with a photo of her and her electric bass. 3. Am I on IndComm duty this week? I thought it was last week. See you around, Gary. From tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Sep 2 11:08:57 2009 From: tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU (tubb at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 09 06:08:57 -0500 Subject: pardon me Message-ID: <161227087527.23782.6569399931752814384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 191 Lines: 10 Dear Indology List, I apologize for inadvertently sending a personal message to the list. Jet lag and unfamiliar software at the World Sanskrit Conference ganged up on me. --Gary Tubb. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Sep 2 22:16:31 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 09 18:16:31 -0400 Subject: Journals Message-ID: <161227087533.23782.3621178001559629569.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1466 Lines: 37 Mark, Are there any of these you have been unable to examine recent paper volumes of? If so, send me a list and I will see if any information is given in the journals themselves. Allen >>> Mark Allon 9/2/2009 5:35:28 PM >>> Dear List members, Further to a discussion I posted on the list way back in 2007, the Australian Research Council (ARC, our main funding body parallel to American NEH) is instigating a system of rankings for peer-reviewed journals. Leaving aside the problems associated with such a system, could someone please tell me whether the following journals (if still in print) are peer-reviewed and provide a link (if possible) to their editorial standards. The ARC is having difficulty obtaining this info via a web search: Buddhist Studies (Bukkyo Kenkyu) Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute Contributions to Asian Studies (Leiden) Harvard South Asia Journal (Harvard) The Indian Historical Review Journal of Indian History Journal of Sino-Indian Buddhist Studies Journal of the International College for Advanced Buddhist Studies (Tokyo) Journal of the Oriental Institute (Baroda) Nachrichten der Akademie der Wissenschaften in Gottingen, I. Philologisch-Historische Klasse Nagoya Studies in Indian Culture and Buddhism South Asia South Asian Studies Sri Lanka Journal of Buddhist Studies Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney From mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU Wed Sep 2 21:35:28 2009 From: mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 09 07:35:28 +1000 Subject: Journals In-Reply-To: <20090826214104.GG4678@ubuntu> Message-ID: <161227087530.23782.4870218834974329152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1209 Lines: 29 Dear List members, Further to a discussion I posted on the list way back in 2007, the Australian Research Council (ARC, our main funding body parallel to American NEH) is instigating a system of rankings for peer-reviewed journals. Leaving aside the problems associated with such a system, could someone please tell me whether the following journals (if still in print) are peer-reviewed and provide a link (if possible) to their editorial standards. The ARC is having difficulty obtaining this info via a web search: Buddhist Studies (Bukkyo Kenkyu) Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute Contributions to Asian Studies (Leiden) Harvard South Asia Journal (Harvard) The Indian Historical Review Journal of Indian History Journal of Sino-Indian Buddhist Studies Journal of the International College for Advanced Buddhist Studies (Tokyo) Journal of the Oriental Institute (Baroda) Nachrichten der Akademie der Wissenschaften in Gottingen, I. Philologisch-Historische Klasse Nagoya Studies in Indian Culture and Buddhism South Asia South Asian Studies Sri Lanka Journal of Buddhist Studies Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney From mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU Wed Sep 2 22:58:49 2009 From: mark.allon at USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 09 08:58:49 +1000 Subject: Journals In-Reply-To: <20090902T181631Z_AE4F00170000@loc.gov> Message-ID: <161227087536.23782.2655066437954695366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2102 Lines: 68 Allen, Thanks for your kind offer. The journals that our library does not have and which I don't have paper copies of are the following: Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute Contributions to Asian Studies (Leiden) Harvard South Asia Journal (Harvard) Journal of Sino-Indian Buddhist Studies Journal of the Oriental Institute (Baroda) South Asian Studies Sri Lanka Journal of Buddhist Studies Regards Mark -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Allen W Thrasher Sent: Thursday, 3 September 2009 8:17 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Journals Mark, Are there any of these you have been unable to examine recent paper volumes of? If so, send me a list and I will see if any information is given in the journals themselves. Allen >>> Mark Allon 9/2/2009 5:35:28 PM >>> Dear List members, Further to a discussion I posted on the list way back in 2007, the Australian Research Council (ARC, our main funding body parallel to American NEH) is instigating a system of rankings for peer-reviewed journals. Leaving aside the problems associated with such a system, could someone please tell me whether the following journals (if still in print) are peer-reviewed and provide a link (if possible) to their editorial standards. The ARC is having difficulty obtaining this info via a web search: Buddhist Studies (Bukkyo Kenkyu) Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute Contributions to Asian Studies (Leiden) Harvard South Asia Journal (Harvard) The Indian Historical Review Journal of Indian History Journal of Sino-Indian Buddhist Studies Journal of the International College for Advanced Buddhist Studies (Tokyo) Journal of the Oriental Institute (Baroda) Nachrichten der Akademie der Wissenschaften in Gottingen, I. Philologisch-Historische Klasse Nagoya Studies in Indian Culture and Buddhism South Asia South Asian Studies Sri Lanka Journal of Buddhist Studies Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Sep 3 16:24:17 2009 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 09 12:24:17 -0400 Subject: Journals Message-ID: <161227087539.23782.7842892748294600869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2243 Lines: 76 Mark, I will page the latest vol. of each of these after lunch. Allen >>> Mark Allon 9/2/2009 6:58:49 PM >>> Allen, Thanks for your kind offer. The journals that our library does not have and which I don't have paper copies of are the following: Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute Contributions to Asian Studies (Leiden) Harvard South Asia Journal (Harvard) Journal of Sino-Indian Buddhist Studies Journal of the Oriental Institute (Baroda) South Asian Studies Sri Lanka Journal of Buddhist Studies Regards Mark -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Allen W Thrasher Sent: Thursday, 3 September 2009 8:17 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Journals Mark, Are there any of these you have been unable to examine recent paper volumes of? If so, send me a list and I will see if any information is given in the journals themselves. Allen >>> Mark Allon 9/2/2009 5:35:28 PM >>> Dear List members, Further to a discussion I posted on the list way back in 2007, the Australian Research Council (ARC, our main funding body parallel to American NEH) is instigating a system of rankings for peer-reviewed journals. Leaving aside the problems associated with such a system, could someone please tell me whether the following journals (if still in print) are peer-reviewed and provide a link (if possible) to their editorial standards. The ARC is having difficulty obtaining this info via a web search: Buddhist Studies (Bukkyo Kenkyu) Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute Contributions to Asian Studies (Leiden) Harvard South Asia Journal (Harvard) The Indian Historical Review Journal of Indian History Journal of Sino-Indian Buddhist Studies Journal of the International College for Advanced Buddhist Studies (Tokyo) Journal of the Oriental Institute (Baroda) Nachrichten der Akademie der Wissenschaften in Gottingen, I. Philologisch-Historische Klasse Nagoya Studies in Indian Culture and Buddhism South Asia South Asian Studies Sri Lanka Journal of Buddhist Studies Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon Chair, Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies University of Sydney From james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 4 01:35:10 2009 From: james.hartzell at GMAIL.COM (James Hartzell) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 09 03:35:10 +0200 Subject: Online Sanskrit, first-year Message-ID: <161227087542.23782.17081049559668944139.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1037 Lines: 28 Colleagues During work at the University of Manitoba (Winnipeg, Canada) this past year, I began developing material for an online first year Sanskrit course with the Distance and Online Education Division. We plan to run the course beginning in May 2010. It will be a full six credit (two semester) course, covering the material needed for 1st year Sanskrit credit. Arrangements may be made with the University of Manitoba and the student's home institution for credit transfer (usually by a simple letter of permission from the home institution). Links to the course flyers and further information may be found at http://umanitoba.ca/extended/distance/media/pdfs/09/sanskrit_apr09.pdf http://umanitoba.ca/extended/distance/media/pdfs/09/sanskrit_2_apr09.pdf Please distribute to all interested parties. The likelihood of the course running will be increased with increased enrollment. My best regards to colleagues at Kyoto. We've been busy with a move to Italy, so unable to attend. Cheers James Hartzell Rovereto, Italy From at8u at VIRGINIA.EDU Fri Sep 4 12:58:17 2009 From: at8u at VIRGINIA.EDU (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 09 08:58:17 -0400 Subject: Online Sanskrit, first-year In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087548.23782.16066403924949213910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 1799 Lines: 55 Dear James, I've just seen your post to the Indology list and I wonder if I may be so bold as to inquire about Rovereto. I imagine that you meant the Rovereto that is about 20Km from Trento. My name is Alberto Todeschini and I'm finishing a PhD in Indian Buddhism at the University of Virginia. I'll spend the next few months in Lausanne and Vienna. I'm actually from Trento and I'll be there to see my parents during the second half of this month. Anyway, I was just curious to know about the connection between Rovereto and Sanskrit. I know that occasionally Sanskrit introductions have been taught at the university of Trento, but I don't know by whom. Best, Alberto Todeschini Hartzell wrote: > Colleagues > > During work at the University of Manitoba (Winnipeg, Canada) this past year, > I began developing material for an online first year Sanskrit course with > the Distance and Online Education Division. > > We plan to run the course beginning in May 2010. It will be a full six > credit (two semester) course, covering the material needed for 1st year > Sanskrit credit. Arrangements may be made with the University of Manitoba > and the student's home institution for credit transfer (usually by a simple > letter of permission from the home institution). Links to the course flyers > and further information may be found at > > http://umanitoba.ca/extended/distance/media/pdfs/09/sanskrit_apr09.pdf > http://umanitoba.ca/extended/distance/media/pdfs/09/sanskrit_2_apr09.pdf > > Please distribute to all interested parties. The likelihood of the course > running will be increased with increased enrollment. > > My best regards to colleagues at Kyoto. We've been busy with a move to > Italy, so unable to attend. > > Cheers > James Hartzell > Rovereto, Italy > From at8u at VIRGINIA.EDU Fri Sep 4 12:59:06 2009 From: at8u at VIRGINIA.EDU (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 09 08:59:06 -0400 Subject: Online Sanskrit, first-year In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087552.23782.3839743645219135761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 99 Lines: 6 Apologies for the private message sent to the list. I guess we never learn. Alberto Todeschini From gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Sep 4 12:05:02 2009 From: gruenen at SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 09 14:05:02 +0200 Subject: GRETIL update #355 Message-ID: <161227087545.23782.3409461895581394484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 997 Lines: 37 GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Amrtakara: Catuhstavasamasartha Jayatirtha: Nyayasudha, 1,1 (revised) Jayatirtha: Nyayasudha, 1,2 Jayatirtha: Nyayasudha, 1,3 Vasubandhu: Madhyantavibhagakarikabhasya __________________________________________________________________________ "GRETIL is intended as a cumulative register of the numerous download sites for electronic texts in Indian languages." (from the 2001 "mission statement") GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From karin.preisendanz at UNIVIE.AC.AT Fri Sep 4 14:10:46 2009 From: karin.preisendanz at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Karin.Preisendanz) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 09 16:10:46 +0200 Subject: post doc position Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, Vienna University In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087554.23782.13019219497017871885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2502 Lines: 72 Dear colleagues, Please see the advertisement attached below. I would be grateful if you would post it in your Department and bring it to the attention of suitable candidates. With best regards, Karin Preisendanz ----------- An der Universitat Wien ist ab 01.10.2009 die Position einer/eines Wissenschaftlichen Mitarbeiters/in ("post doc") am Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde bis 28.02.2010 zu besetzen. Kennzahl der Ausschreibung: 621 Am Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde der Philologisch-Kulturwissenschaftl. Fakultat der Universitat Wien kann eine Ersatzkraftstelle mit einer Assistentin/einem Assistenten f?r die Zeit vom 1.10.2009 bis 28.2.2010 besetzt werden. Dauer der Befristung: 5 Monat/e Besch?ftigungsausma?: 40 Stunden/Woche. Ihre Aufgaben: Der Aufgabenbereich umfasst neben der Unterst?tzung der Professur im Bereich Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde in Lehre und Forschung die Beteiligung an der Lehr-, Forschungs-und Institutsverwaltung sowie selbst?ndige Lehre und Forschung. Ihr Profil: Abgeschlossenes Doktorat oder eine dem Doktorat gleichzuwertende wissenschaftliche Bef?higung im Fach Buddhismuskunde, Tibetologie oder einem vergleichbaren Fach mit einem Schwerpunkt auf Philosophie-, Religions- oder Literaturgeschichte; Kenntnisse und Erfahrung in Lehre, Forschung und Verwaltung. Teamf?higkeit, didaktische Qualifikationen und gute fachspezifische EDV-Kenntnisse sowie gute Deutschkenntnisse werden vorausgesetzt. Sehr gute Sanskrit- und Tibetischkenntnisse beim Verstehen von Texten sind Bedingung. Ihre Bewerbung: Wir freuen uns auf Ihre aussagekr?ftige Bewerbung mit Motivationsschreiben unter der Kennzahl 621, welche Sie bis zum 20.09.2009 bevorzugt ?ber unser Job Center (http://jobcenter.univie.ac.at/) an uns ?bermitteln. F?r n?here Ausk?nfte ?ber die ausgeschriebene Position wenden Sie sich bitte an B?ckle, Alexandra +43-1-4277-43501. Die Universitat Wien strebt eine Erh?hung des Frauenanteils insbesondere in Leitungsfunktionen und beim Wissenschaftlichen Personal an und fordert deshalb qualifizierte Frauen ausdr?cklich zur Bewerbung auf. Frauen werden bei gleicher Qualifikation vorrangig aufgenommen. DLE Personalwesen und Frauenforderung der Universitat Wien, Dr.-Karl-Lueger-Ring 1, 1010 Wien Kennzahl der Ausschreibung: 621 Email: jobcenter at univie.ac.at -- Karin Preisendanz Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 A-1090 Wien ?sterreich From indologi at GWDG.DE Sat Sep 5 06:57:01 2009 From: indologi at GWDG.DE (Indologie, Seminar fuer) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 09 08:57:01 +0200 Subject: Professor in ?Indian Religions? (W2), Goettingen (Germany) Message-ID: <161227087557.23782.17461605873924773981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3713 Lines: 78 Dear list members, the Georg-August-University G?ttingen (Germany) is establishing the Centre for Modern Indian Studies (CeMIS) and invites applications for a position of a professor (salary scale W2) in "Indian Religions". The position is available from 1st October 2009. Applications are requested by September 19th, 2009. You'll find complete information below. Kindly forward this mail to suitable candidates. Best regards, Thomas Oberlies -- Prof. Dr. Thomas Oberlies Seminar f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Waldweg 26 D-37073 G?ttingen Tel.: +49-551-39 13301 ----------------------------------------------- The Georg-August-University G?ttingen (Germany) is establishing the Centre for Modern Indian Studies (CeMIS) and invites applications for a position of a - professor in ?Indian Religions? (salary scale W2) ? The CeMIS (www.uni-goettingen.de/cemis) is a new founded institution funded by the Land Niedersachsen (State of Lower Saxony) to foster research and teaching on contemporary India. The Centre?s thematic focus is on economic and political development of modern India and its relation to ethnic, religious and linguistic diversity as well as to social inequalities and political conflicts. Three professorships are being established at present. They are affiliated to the Faculty of Economics and to the Faculty of Philosophy. They will be complemented by two additional social science professorships in the near future and shall cooperate in the framework of an interdisciplinary Centre affiliated to several faculties. The position is available from 1st October 2009. Applications are invited from candidates working on religions in contemporary India from a religious studies perspective. This includes particularly candidates who work on Hindu-Muslim or Hindu-Christian relations and their implications for social conflict and political integration in the modern era. Candidates should work with primary materials in an Indian language. Candidates must have an interest in interdisciplinary cooperation with other social science professors in the newly created Centre. Teaching responsibilities will particularly include contributions to, and further development of, a newly created Bachelor in Modern Indian Studies as well as a Master in Modern Indian Development Studies. Participation in other teaching programmes in the Faculty of Philosophy to which the professorship is affiliated, is encouraged and contribution to PhD training within the G?ttingen Graduate School of Humanities is welcomed. Applications, including pertinent documentation (CV, list of publications, teaching and research track records etc.) are requested by September 19th, 2009 and should be sent to the Dekanin der Philosophischen Fakult?t der Georg-August-Universit?t G?ttingen, Humboldtallee, D-37073 G?ttingen, Germany, email: dekanin at phil.uni-goettingen.de. A previously published application deadline for this position is thereby extended. For further information, please contact vice-president Prof. Casper-Hehne, email: hiltraud.casper-hehne at zvw.uni-goettingen.de. Preconditions for appointment are laid down in ? 25 of the Higher Education Law of Lower Saxony of 26.02.2007 (Official Law Gazette of Lower Saxony, Nds. GVBl. 5/2007 p. 69). As a Public Law Foundation, the University of G?ttingen holds the right of appointment. Further details will be explained on inquiry. We explicitly welcome applications from abroad. Under certain circumstances part-time employment is possible. Disabled persons with corresponding aptitude for the position will be favoured. The University strives to increase its proportion of female staff and specifically encourages qualified women to apply. From pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM Sat Sep 5 15:21:00 2009 From: pankajaindia at GMAIL.COM (Pankaj Jain) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 09 16:21:00 +0100 Subject: Online Sanskrit, first-year Message-ID: <161227087559.23782.1453047487720860936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 660 Lines: 22 I am teaching first year Sanskrit as an online and as a on-campus course currently at NC State University in Raleigh. Details at: http://delta.ncsu.edu/apps/coursedetail/index.php?id=FL:295::601:FALL:2009 Next year, I will be offering second year Sanskrit also as an online and as an on-campus course. Regards, Pankaj ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Pankaj Jain ???? ??? Teaching Assistant Professor 204 Withers Hall, (919) 515 9307 Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies Science, Technology & Society Program North Carolina State University ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Sep 8 10:32:42 2009 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 09 05:32:42 -0500 Subject: Collective Unconscious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227087564.23782.2429910123317657295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 910 Lines: 43 William Waldron's book on aalayavij?aana has some things to say about this and very fully documents earlier studies of this concept in yogaacaara Buddhism. If I recall correctly (it's been a really long time), Jeff Masson's not very well received book The Oceanic Feeling proposes some analogies. ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 10:12:15 +0000 >From: Harsha Dehejia >Subject: Collective Unconscious >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > >Friends: > > > >Individual sub-conscious and collective unconscious are terms in Modern European Psychology. > > > >Are there Indian (Hindu/Buddhist) equivalents for this? > > > >Regards. > > > >Harsha V. Dehejia > >Ottawa, ON., Canada. Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 8 10:12:15 2009 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 09 10:12:15 +0000 Subject: Collective Unconscious Message-ID: <161227087562.23782.4465772852125480025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 227 Lines: 22 Friends: Individual sub-conscious and collective unconscious are terms in Modern European Psychology. Are there Indian (Hindu/Buddhist) equivalents for this? Regards. Harsha V. Dehejia Ottawa, ON., Canada. From e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM Tue Sep 8 12:00:07 2009 From: e.ciurtin at GMAIL.COM (Eugen Ciurtin) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 09 15:00:07 +0300 Subject: Collective Unconscious In-Reply-To: <20090908053242.CCD89264@m4500-02.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227087566.23782.10566755329448263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 2587 Lines: 87 Jean Filliozat discussed such parallelisms (having also a medical training) already in the 1940s. See e.g. "L?inconscient dans la psychologie indienne", *Proceedings of the Xth International Congress of Philosophy*, Amsterdam, 1948, t. 1, 267-269 = 1974: 167-169; "The psychological discoveries of Buddhism", *University of Ceylon Review* 13 (1955), nos. 2-3, 69-82 = 1974: 143-156, and also some other contributions from his kleine Schriften: his teaching reports in *Annuaire du Coll?ge de France* during the 1960-1970s); *Laghu-prabandh?**?. Choix d?articles d?indologie*, Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1974, and especially *Religion Philosophy Yoga: a selection of articles*, translated by Maurice Shukla,* *Delhi: MLBD, 1991; Colette CAILLAT, Pierre-Sylvain FILLIOZAT, "Jean Filliozat (1906-1982)", *JA* 271 (1983): 1-4, and "Bibliographie des travaux de Jean Filliozat", 5-24. More recently, and in a somewhat different vein, could be of much help the synthesis of Fran?ois C HENET, "*Bh?van?* et cr?ativit? de la conscience", *Numen* 34 (1987), no. 1, 45-96. If you don't have the first papers, I can send you a scan. with kind regards E. Ciurtin Indology 2009/9/8 > William Waldron's book on aalayavij?aana has some things to say about this > and very fully documents earlier studies of this concept in yogaacaara > Buddhism. > > If I recall correctly (it's been a really long time), Jeff Masson's not > very well > received book The Oceanic Feeling proposes some analogies. > > ---- Original message ---- > >Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 10:12:15 +0000 > >From: Harsha Dehejia > >Subject: Collective Unconscious > >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > > >Friends: > > > > > > > >Individual sub-conscious and collective unconscious are terms in Modern > European Psychology. > > > > > > > >Are there Indian (Hindu/Buddhist) equivalents for this? > > > > > > > >Regards. > > > > > > > >Harsha V. Dehejia > > > >Ottawa, ON., Canada. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Directeur d'?tudes > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > -- Dr E. Ciurtin Secretary of the Romanian Association for the History of Religions www.rahr.ro Publications Officer of the European Association for the Study of Religions www.easr.eu Lecturer & Secretary of the Scientific Council Institute for the History of Religions, Romanian Academy Calea 13 Septembrie no. 13 sect. 5, Bucharest 050711 Phone: 00 40 733 951 953 www.ihr-acad.ro From jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR Thu Sep 10 08:03:27 2009 From: jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 09 10:03:27 +0200 Subject: Publication announcement: Collection Indo logie n=?UTF-8?Q?=C2=B0109,?= IFP / EFEO (memorial volume for T .V. Gopal Iyer) Message-ID: <161227087569.23782.8085703866770397685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Status: O Content-Length: 3643 Lines: 116 Dear Indology List members, Please find below information concerning a new publication, URL: ******************* Between Preservation and Recreation: Tamil Traditions of Commentary. Proceedings of a Workshop in Honour of T.V. Gopal Iyer [22/01/1926 -- 01/04/2007] Edited by Eva Wilden, Collection Indologie n?109, IFP / EFEO, 2009, xiv, 319 p. Language: English (except 2 articles in Tamil). 600 Rs (26 ?) ISBN (IFP): 978-81-8470-173-9. ISBN (EFEO): 978-2-85539-674-3 The seed from which this book germinated was a workshop entitled ?Between Preservation and Recreation: Tamil Traditions of Commentary in Pursuit of the Ca?kam Era?, held in the Pondicherry Centre of the EFEO in July 2006 in honour of the late and much lamented Pandit T.V. Gopal Iyer. A presentation of the life and work of T.V. Gopal Iyer, along with his bibliography, is followed by essays. After a general introduction by Eva Wilden, Thomas Lehmann gives a survey of the types of commentary found in Tamil. Jean-Luc Chevillard addresses the interaction between scholastic Sanskrit and Tamil. G. Vijayavenugopal, Eva Wilden and A. Dhamodharan deal with the genre of grammatical and poetological commentaries. Martine Gestin explores the possibilities of retrieving soci