An old Indian friend forwarded this to me a while ago.
¬Found=true
Slaughter in the Name of God
By Salman Rushdie
Friday, March 8, 2002; Page A33 Washington Post
The defining image of the week, for me, is of a small child's burned and
blackened arm, its tiny fingers curled into a fist, protruding from the
remains of a human bonfire in Ahmadabad, Gujarat, in India. The murder
of children is something of an Indian specialty. The routine daily
killings of unwanted girl babies . . . the massacre of innocents in
Nellie, Assam, in the 1980s when village turned against neighboring
village . . . the massacre of Sikh children in Delhi during the
horrifying reprisal murders that followed Indira Gandhi's assassination:
They bear witness to our particular gift, always most dazzlingly in
evidence at times of religious unrest, for dousing our children in
kerosene and setting them alight, or cutting their throats, or
smothering them or just clubbing them to death with a good strong length
of wood.
I say "our" because I write as an Indian man, born and bred, who loves
India deeply and knows that what one of us does today, any of us is
potentially capable of doing tomorrow. If I take pride in India's
strengths, then India's sins must be mine as well. Do I sound angry?
Good. Ashamed and disgusted? I certainly hope so. Because, as India
undergoes its worst bout of Hindu-Muslim bloodletting in more than a
decade, many people have not been sounding anything like angry, ashamed
or disgusted enough. Police chiefs have been excusing their men's
unwillingness to defend the citizens of India, without regard to
religion, by saying that these men have feelings too and are subject to
the same sentiments as the nation in general.
Meanwhile, India's political masters have been tut-tutting and offering
the usual soothing lies about the situation being brought under control.
(It has escaped nobody's notice that the ruling party, the Bharatiya
Janata Party (BJP), or Indian People's Party, and the Hindu extremists
of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), or World Hindu Council, are sister
organizations and offshoots of the same parent body.) Even some
international commentators, such as Britain's Independent newspaper,
urge us to "beware excess pessimism."
The horrible truth about communal slaughter in India is that we're used
to it. It happens every so often; then it dies down. That's how life is,
folks. Most of the time India is the world's largest secular democracy;
and if, once in a while, it lets off a little crazy religious steam, we
mustn't let that distort the picture.
Of course, there are political explanations. Ever since December 1992,
when a VHP mob demolished a 400-year-old Muslim mosque in Ayodhya, which
they claim was built on the sacred birthplace of the god Ram, Hindu
fanatics have been looking for this fight. The pity of it is that some
Muslims were ready to give it to them. Their murderous attack on the
train-load of VHP activists at Godhra (with its awful, atavistic echoes
of the killings of Hindus and Muslims by the train-load during the
partition riots of 1947) played right into the Hindu extremists' hands.
The VHP has evidently tired of what it sees as the equivocations and
insufficient radicalism of India's BJP government. Prime Minister Atal
Bihari Vajpayee is more moderate than his party; he also heads a
coalition government and has been obliged to abandon much of the BJP's
more extreme Hindu nationalist rhetoric to hold the coalition together.
But it isn't working anymore. In state elections across the country, the
BJP is being trounced. This may have been the last straw for the VHP
firebrands. Why put up with the government's betrayal of their fascistic
agenda when that betrayal doesn't even result in electoral success?
The electoral failure of the BJP is thus, in all probability, the spark
that lit the fire. The VHP is determined to build a Hindu temple on the
site of the demolished Ayodhya mosque -- that's where the Godhra dead
were coming from -- and there are, reprehensibly, idiotically,
tragically, Muslims in India equally determined to resist them. Vajpayee
has insisted that the slow Indian courts must decide the rights and
wrongs of the Ayodhya issue. The VHP is no longer prepared to wait.
The distinguished Indian writer Mahasveta Devi, in a letter to India's
president, K. R. Narayanan, blames the Gujarat government (led by a BJP
hard-liner) as well as the central government for doing "too little too
late." She pins the blame firmly on the "motivated, well-planned out and
provocative actions" of the Hindu nationalists. But another writer, the
Nobel laureate V. S. Naipaul, speaking in India just a week before the
violence erupted, denounced India's Muslims en masse and praised the
nationalist movement.
The murderers of Godhra must indeed be denounced, and Mahasveta Devi in
her letter demands "stern legal action" against them. But the VHP is
determined to destroy that secular democracy in which India takes such
public pride and which it does so little to protect; and by supporting
them, Naipaul makes himself a fellow traveler of fascism and disgraces
the Nobel award.
The political discourse matters, and explains a good deal. But there's
something beneath it, something we don't want to look in the face:
namely, that in India, as elsewhere in our darkening world, religion is
the poison in the blood. Where religion intervenes, mere innocence is no
excuse. Yet we go on skating around this issue, speaking of religion in
the fashionable language of "respect." What is there to respect in any
of this, or in any of the crimes now being committed almost daily around
the world in religion's dreaded name? How well, with what fatal results,
religion erects totems, and how willing we are to kill for them! And
when we've done it often enough, the deadening of affect that results
makes it easier to do it again.
So India's problem turns out to be the world's problem. What happened in
India has happened in God's name. The problem's name is God.
Salman Rushdie is a novelist and author of the forthcoming essay
collection "Step Across This Line."
© 2002 The Washington Post Company
sdw
--
sdw@lig.net
Stephen D. Williams 43392 Wayside Cir,Ashburn,VA 20147-4622
703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax Dec2001


What I understood was that the activists on the train refused to pay for
the food and other items they acquired from the Muslim vendors -- then
taunted them.
That may not be true, but it would put things in a more interesting
light.  Taking food from a small vendor in India and not paying them is
trying to starve them.
It sounded consistent with the ideas and purpose of the train full of
activists.
I'm rarely an apologist for Muslims anywhere.  Yet I find my sympathies
with the Muslims in this case, even after they burned the train.
> From: fork-admin@xent.com  On Behalf Of
> Stephen D. Williams
> The pity of it is that some
> Muslims were ready to give it to them. Their murderous attack on the
> train-load of VHP activists at Godhra (with its awful, atavistic
echoes
> of the killings of Hindus and Muslims by the train-load during the
> partition riots of 1947) played right into the Hindu extremists'
hands.


The usual crud.  Why do morons ranting and beating their chests in the
National Review (or similar rags) merit FoRKing?


First, it was my understanding that they had the food before they
refused to pay.  I often have the goods in my possession before I settle
the paycheck.
Second, 'not being paid for a little food' is an awfully big deal in
India.  It isn't far from stealing the only food my children have so
I'll have to watch them starve.  The margin of survival is very, very,
thin.
So yes.  In my particular reality distortion field 'not paying for a
little food' in India is akin to a direct act of violence intended to
cause suffering if not death on the victims family.  That such an act
triggers a violent response is, IMHO, hardly surprising.
In other words, as far as I could tell the people on the train fired the
first shot.
With all of that said I still don't know if this happened or not.  Nor
do I know for sure that the margin of survival for those Muslim vendors
was that thin.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen D. Williams
> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:54 AM
> To: johnhall@evergo.net
> Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org; lea@lig.net
> Subject: Re: Slaughter in the Name of God
>
> Wow!  It seems you are evaluating this with a large reality distortion
> field.
>
> If the activists on the train refused to pay for food, then the
vendors
> shouldn't give it to them.  And the local police force should be
> arresting them.  Etc.
>
> You have to be operating from a particularly primitive point of view,
> which obviously was in operation with the participants here, to think
> that religious differences or not being paid for a little food (or
> taunting!) was even a remote justification for burning a train full of
> people alive.
>
> sdw
>
> John Hall wrote:
> > What I understood was that the activists on the train refused to pay
for
> > the food and other items they acquired from the Muslim vendors --
then
> > taunted them.
> >
> > That may not be true, but it would put things in a more interesting
> > light.  Taking food from a small vendor in India and not paying them
is
> > trying to starve them.
> >
> > It sounded consistent with the ideas and purpose of the train full
of
> > activists.
> >
> > I'm rarely an apologist for Muslims anywhere.  Yet I find my
sympathies
> > with the Muslims in this case, even after they burned the train.
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: fork-admin@xent.com  On Behalf Of
> >>Stephen D. Williams
> >
> >
> >>The pity of it is that some
> >>Muslims were ready to give it to them. Their murderous attack on the
> >>train-load of VHP activists at Godhra (with its awful, atavistic
> >
> > echoes
> >
> >>of the killings of Hindus and Muslims by the train-load during the
> >>partition riots of 1947) played right into the Hindu extremists'
> >
> > hands.
>
> sdw
> --
> swilliams@hpti.com
> Stephen D. Williams, Senior Technical Director
>
>


On Mon, 16 Sep 2002, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
> It's efficient-end, not low end.  At 1Million hour MTBF, 133MB/sec,
> and pretty good buffering and speed, the only thing going for SCSI is
> 15,000 RPM vs. 7200 and in a very small number of cases, slightly
> better scatter-gather.  (Actually, I think there might be a 15,000 RPM
> IDE now.)
It's not just krpm, the desktop HDs have a higher failure rate. But I
agree, EIDE has high density, and EIDE hardware RAID can offer SCSI a
sound beating for reliability, performance, and storage density/rack units
for the money, if designed for it, and if people would actually start
buying it.
> The other issues are pretty much non-issues: using multiple drives and
> controller contention (just use many IDE channels with extra PCI
> cards, up to 10 in some systems), and long cable runs (just split
There are not all that many hard drives inside an 1U enclosure. Airflow
blockage (you have to fit in 2-3x the number of SCSI disks with EIDE) will
soon be a thing of the past due to SATA.
> storage between nodes).  Dual-port SCSI is also a non-issue since it
> is very expensive, doesn't work that well in practice because there
> are numerous secondary failure modes for shared disk systems, and
> because you still end up with a single point of failure.
Since rack-space costs dominate, and our systems need more or less decent
I/O we're going with 1U Dells with SCSI. The hard drive prices don't
really make a visible difference, given the cost of the iron, and the
rackspace/month. Plus, 1U Dells don't have any space left for lots of EIDE
drives.


the doctor wears many hats, including but not limited to a rubber skullcap
for playing water polo, a beret for making sparkling wines, and an oversized
fedora to deflect his own cigar smoke, which he regularly blows up my ...
geege
-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of Jim
Whitehead
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 2:08 PM
To: FoRK
Subject: RE: introductions
> Aren't you Dr. Gregory A. Bolcer, Dutch Uncle of P2P?
I thought he was Greg Bolcer, recovering XPilot & Doom junkie...
- Jim


> From: Stephen D. Williams
>
> Just to further weaken the food transaction argument, I'll note that
in
> my neighborhood, the local McDonalds won't even hand you your drink in
> the drive through until you fork over the cash.
Maybe you never bought a hot dog from a street vendor.
> And why is it that the margin of survival is so thin?  Could it be
that
> all of these tribal rivalries are part of what's holding back
wholesale
> movement to the modern, first world patterns of constructive thinking?
Well, yes.  But it doesn't change the idea that the margin of survival
probably IS that thin in this region.
> I'm sure that both sides were ready to be the agressor.
I'm not.  I'm sure both sides were equally ready to be the aggressor
provided they were in a predominant position of power.
> Bush's reluctance to blast blind obeyance of religion as taught by
your
> local madrassa or KKK leader, apparently because he is fully involved
> with the general effort to expand unfettered religiosity as the
solution
> to the world's ills, is disappointing.  He has spoke against madrassa,
> but what I heard sounded lame and carefully crafted to shield religion
> in general from scrutiny.
1. Which religion and how it is currently being expressed matters.
2. The US is trying to avoid making war on the Muslim religion.
3. US Leadership remains reflexively multi-cultural.
> We all have
> disagreements, but at some point it becomes a crime against humanity.
I didn't say burning the train was a good thing.  I said I understood it
wasn't a spontaneous attack on people who had done no wrong.


John Hall wrote:
>>From: Stephen D. Williams
>>
>>
>>Bush's reluctance to blast blind obeyance of religion as taught by
>>
>your
>
>
>>local madrassa or KKK leader, apparently because he is fully involved
>>with the general effort to expand unfettered religiosity as the
>>
>>
>solution
>
>>to the world's ills, is disappointing.  He has spoke against madrassa,
>>but what I heard sounded lame and carefully crafted to shield religion
>>in general from scrutiny.
>>
>>
>
>1. Which religion and how it is currently being expressed matters.
>
A)  Which religion is it that can claim no foul actions in its past?
Certainly not Christianity, Islam, etc.
B) "How it is currently being expressed" amounts to a tacit
acknowledgement that the sophistication of the society involved and
people's self-limiting reasonableness are important to avoid primitive
expression.  This leads to the point that religion and less
sophisticated societies are a dangerous mix.  It also tends to invoke
the image of extremes that might occur without diligent maintenance of
society.
C) Many splinter Christianity religions have 'clean hands' but they also
aren't 'found in the wild'.
(By "primitive expression", I don't mean to slight any society, but that
there is some chronic evidence of irrational mob actions and uncivilized
behavior (killing infants, women to break religious blue laws, etc.).
The US has only really been mostly free of "primitive expression" for
40-50 years, although large categories, including serious religious
conflict, were settled quite a while ago.)
D) The Northern Ireland Protestant vs. Catholic feud, recently more or
less concluded, is not completely unlike this kind of friction generated
by splitting society too much along religious lines.  One Post article
pointed out that the problem basically stemmed from the vertical
integration of areas along religious lines all the way to schools,
government, political party, etc.  (Of course both cases have a heritage
of British conquest, but who doesn't?)
(I couldn't find the article I remember, but here are a couple of others:)
¬Found=true
¬Found=true
'Northern Ireland is a British province of green valleys and
cloud-covered hills whose 1.6 million people are politically and
religiously divided. About 54 percent of the population is Protestant,
and most Protestants are unionists who want the province to remain part
of Britain. The Roman Catholic minority is predominantly republican, or
nationalist; they want to merge with the Republic of Ireland to the south.
In 1968, Catholic leaders launched a civil rights drive modeled on the
Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s campaign in the American South. But
violence quickly broke out, with ancient religious animosities fueling
the political argument. Armed paramilitary groups sprung up on both
sides. Police records and historians agree that the most lethal group by
far was the IRA, fighting on the Catholic side with a goal of a united
Ireland
The provincial police force estimates that about 3,600 people were
killed during the 30-year conflict known, with characteristic Northern
Ireland understatement, as "The Troubles."'
>2. The US is trying to avoid making war on the Muslim religion.
>
That's fine, as it would be an inappropriate concentration.  It would be
difficult to address the issues raised here in a clean way.  I'd be
happy with an acknowledgement that the connection is there.
>3. US Leadership remains reflexively multi-cultural.
>
This is ok to a point, as long as it doesn't shy away from logical,
objective analysis of when a society could be seriously improved in
certain ways.
>>We all have
>>disagreements, but at some point it becomes a crime against humanity.
>>
>>
>
>I didn't say burning the train was a good thing.  I said I understood it
>wasn't a spontaneous attack on people who had done no wrong.
>
True, although I don't think you were as clear originally.  :-)
sdw


> From: Stephen D. Williams
> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 7:42 PM
> >1. Which religion and how it is currently being expressed matters.
> >
> A)  Which religion is it that can claim no foul actions in its past?
>  Certainly not Christianity, Islam, etc.
Hence the qualifier 'current'.
> B) "How it is currently being expressed" amounts to a tacit
> acknowledgement that the sophistication of the society involved and
> people's self-limiting reasonableness are important to avoid primitive
> expression.  This leads to the point that religion and less
> sophisticated societies are a dangerous mix.  It also tends to invoke
> the image of extremes that might occur without diligent maintenance of
> society.
The tacit acknowledgement and self-limiting you speak of is not a given
or a function of 'sophistication' but is primarily a feature of
(current) Western Civilization.  Of course, 'sophisticated' and 'Western
Civilization' are essentially equivalent IMHO.  But it need not be so.
> D) The Northern Ireland Protestant vs. Catholic feud, recently more or
> less concluded, is not completely unlike this kind of friction
generated
> by splitting society too much along religious lines.  One Post article
> pointed out that the problem basically stemmed from the vertical
> integration of areas along religious lines all the way to schools,
> government, political party, etc.  (Of course both cases have a
heritage
> of British conquest, but who doesn't?)
And sometimes the religious component is a façade for an equally
dangerous ethnic affiliation.  Hindu extremism isn't about the Hindu
religious theology as far as I can see.  It is a peg to hang an ethnic
identity and identity politics on.
Muslim extremism appears to have a far greater connection to theology.
> 'Northern Ireland is a British province of green valleys and
> cloud-covered hills whose 1.6 million people are politically and
> religiously divided. About 54 percent of the population is Protestant,
> and most Protestants are unionists who want the province to remain
part
> of Britain. The Roman Catholic minority is predominantly republican,
or
> nationalist; they want to merge with the Republic of Ireland to the
south.
Yep, all because the Scots ate oats and starved their Irish out long
ago, while the English preferred wheat and that doesn't grow so well in
Ireland.  That and the introduction of potatoes saved the Irish as
Irish.
> That's fine, as it would be an inappropriate concentration.  It would
be
> difficult to address the issues raised here in a clean way.  I'd be
> happy with an acknowledgement that the connection is there.
Oh, I think we are in a war with wide aspects of the Muslim religion.  I
know it is there, but it just might not be appropriate to admit it
publicly.
> >3. US Leadership remains reflexively multi-cultural.
> >
> This is ok to a point, as long as it doesn't shy away from logical,
> objective analysis of when a society could be seriously improved in
> certain ways.
I didn't say this was a *good* thing.  With the exception of ethnic
restaurants, I can generally be counted on to oppose anything labeled
'multi-cultural'.
> >I didn't say burning the train was a good thing.  I said I understood
it
> >wasn't a spontaneous attack on people who had done no wrong.
> >
>
> True, although I don't think you were as clear originally.  :-)
I'm sure I wasn't.


--- begin forwarded text
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:57:27 -0700
To: nettime-l@bbs.thing.net
From: Phil Duncan
Subject:
The War Prayer
Sender: nettime-l-request@bbs.thing.net
Reply-To: Phil Duncan
The following prayer is from a story by Mark Twain, and was quoted by Lewis
Laphan in the October issue of Harper's magazine. It occurs at the very end
of an excellent article which I recommend to you.
In the story, an old man enters a church where the congregation has been
listening to an heroic sermon about "the glory to be won in battle by young
patriots armed with the love of God." He usurps the pulpit and prays the
following:
"O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreads with our
shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their
patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of
their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with
a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows
with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little
children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and
hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames in summer and the icy winds of
winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of
the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their
hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their
steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood
of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the
Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that
are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen."
Twain wrote the story, "The War Prayer," in 1905 during the American
occupation of the Philippines, but the story wasn't printed until 1923,
thirteen years after his death, because the editors thought it "unsuitable"
for publication at the time it was written.
#  distributed via
: no commercial use without permission
#
is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: majordomo@bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
#  archive:  contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
--- end forwarded text
--
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'


On Mon, 16 Sep 2002, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
> To make what work?  I already pointed out that a single drive is
> comparable between IDE/SCSI.
Alas, that's wrong. Both the drives are faster (10..15 krpm vs. ~7 krpm,
faster seek), and the EIDE protocol is ridiculously dumb (queing;
disconnect).
> I think you're wrong with recent releases.  I'll check this week.
> There's also JFS and XFS.
None of them are production quality. Right now only ext2 and ext3 qualify.
It will take a good while (a year, or two) before we can trust anything
else.
> >SCSI has got advantages still, particular if it comes to off-shelf
> >high-density racks.
> >
> Check out RaidZone.com.
Have you looked inside a dual-CPU 1U Dell? Three drives are easy to get
in. Anything else would require a redesign, and would in nontrivial
thermal engineering issues.
> A number of vendors are putting the Promise IDE hardware on the
> motherboard.  All that remains is the proper drive socket.
I can't think of a single major vendor who sells 1U systems with hardware
EIDE RAID.
> Additionally, you can get hardware IDE raid as a pair of drive bays or
> even an IDE-IDEx2 controller that can be screwed into a 1U chassis.
I believe you that stuff can be found, if one is looking for it. However,
I wouldn't put this into production unless I've had that system hanging in
the local rack under simulated load for a half a year.


I'd like to claim the parenthood of desktop web services,
but then there's a ton of people doing it now.
What I am the parent of is, Jackson Alan Bolcer--I just
realized that the birth announcement was something that
didn't get sent through due to my general laziness of
being kicked off of FoRK from our stupid DNS fiasco
mixed with the post filtering.   August 20th, 7lbs, 14oz,
8:30pm.
Greg
Geege Schuman wrote:
>
> Aren't you Dr. Gregory A. Bolcer, Dutch Uncle of P2P?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of
> Gregory Alan Bolcer
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 10:21 AM
> To: FoRK
> Subject: introductions
>
> As I've had to resubscribe to fork and fork-noarchive,
> I guess I have to reintroduce myself.  I'm formerly
> known as gbolcer at endtech dot com to the FoRK
> mailman program, formerly an overposter, and love
> soaking up bits through avid reading or scanning
> of almost every single list that's got informative to say.
>
> Hopefully all those overpost will get cleared out at
> somepoint and fork-archived.
>
> Greg


"Adam L. Beberg" wrote:
>
> So, who has done RSA implementation before?
> Having a typo-I-cant-spot problem with my CRT...
>
> - Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
>   ~beberg/
>   beberg@mithral.com
>
>
Done a ton of them, both with and without their
stuff.  With is definitely easier.[1]
Greg
[1]
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for mobile professionals.
About RSA Security, Inc.
RSA Security Inc., the most trusted name in e-security, helps organizations build secure, trusted foundations
for e-business through its RSA
SecurID two-factor authentication, RSA ClearTrust Web access management, RSA BSAFE encryption and RSA Keon
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SecurID authentication users and almost 20 years of industry experience, RSA Security has the proven
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About Endeavors Technology, Inc.
Endeavors Technology, Inc. is a wholly-owned subsidiary of mobile computing and network infrastructure vendor
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and Bristol (UK). For further
information on Endeavors' P2P solutions, call 949-833-2800, email to p2p@endeavors.com, or visit the company's
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www.endeavors.com.
Copyright 2002 Endeavors Technology, Inc. Magi, and Magi Enterprise are registered trademarks of Endeavors
Technology, Inc. RSA, BSAFE, ClearTrust, Keon, SecurID, RSA Secured and The Most
Trusted Name in e-Security are registered trademarks or trademarks of RSA Security Inc. in the United States
and/or other countries. All other products and services mentioned are trademarks of their
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© 2002 Endeavors Technology, Inc., 19600 Fairchild, Suite 350, Irvine, CA 92612, phone
949-833-2800, fax 949-833-2881, email info@endeavors.com.
All rights reserved; specifications and descriptions subject to change without
notice.


~mod/pix/octoberMoon.jpg
--
#ken	P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini
Author, developer, opinionist
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


>>>>> "S" == Stephen D Williams
writes:
S> A) Which religion is it that can claim no foul actions in its
S> past?  Certainly not Christianity, Islam, etc.
Rastafari.
That is, if you concede that of the two founding branches, only the
one founded by the Nyabingi were legit and the others were
thinly-veneered anti-colonial hooligans.
There is also Vietnamese Buddhism, unless you count setting fire to
oneself as a "foul action".
S> C) Many splinter Christianity religions have 'clean hands' but
S> they also aren't 'found in the wild'.
You'd have to explain "found in the wild".  For example, I know of
no violence perpetrated by the South Pacific "Cargo Cults" outside
of a pretty darn /mean/ game of cricket.
S> D) The Northern Ireland Protestant vs. Catholic feud, recently
S> more or less concluded, is not completely unlike this kind of
S> friction generated by splitting society too much along
S> religious lines.  One Post article pointed out that the problem
S> basically stemmed from the vertical integration of areas along
S> religious lines all the way to schools, government, political
S> party, etc.  (Of course both cases have a heritage of British
S> conquest, but who doesn't?)
When we launched the Native Net in 1989, one of the first things we
noticed on networking aboriginal groups around the world is that the
British Army, with the US Army as a proxy by extension, were the
common thread.  Where neither was present (physically or through
influence) there /tended/ to be less violence.
The issue in Ireland is complex, but rest assured that religious
aspects are only a co-incidence of the invader/colonials being
predominantly members of the Royal-headed Anglicans and the aboriginal
population being predominantly members of the Pope-headed Catholics.
The conflict itself has nothing to do with ideology or practice, since
the Anglican Church is a near-identical clone of Catholicism.
(now I bet that's going to attract some healthy debate ;)
S> .. most Protestants are unionists who want the
S> province to remain part of Britain.
Mebst. Mebst.  It's the other way around.  Most Unionists are protestants.
It's their _Unionism_ that is the source of the conflict, not their
sacriments.
S> ... Police records and historians agree that the most lethal
S> group by far was the IRA, fighting on the Catholic side with a
S> goal of a united Ireland
And which side of the colonial fence do you suppose the Police and
Historians sit?  If the Russians had invaded the USA as feared in
episodes such as the Bay of Pigs, would the Americans have organized
to become a "lethal force", or would they have just said, "Oh well,
there goes /that/ democracy!" and settle in under communist rule?
Just wondering.
>> 2. The US is trying to avoid making war on the Muslim religion.
It is interesting to me that the Canadian media is trying to paint
Chretien as some sort of buffoon for saying that 3rd-world poverty was
a major contributor to 9-11.  If they'd /watch/ his now-infamous
interview, they'd see that it's still us-against-hooligans, but his
point is that the hooligans would not be able to find friendly states
so easily if those states were not so bled-dry by the west.
The same is true of street-gangs: When people are disenfranchised,
it's easier to offer them the Triad as a new family.  You get
cellphones, cars, a dry place to live.  Triad, biker gangs, mafia, the
IRA, Al Queda ... we've been fighting the War on Terrorism for as long
as there's been commerce, so you'd think we'd /realize/ that
escalation of violence is not a solution.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy - garym@teledyn.com - TeleDynamics Communications
- blog: ~teledyn - biz:  -
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." (Picasso)


Gary Lawrence Murphy said:
> >>>>> "S" == Stephen D Williams
writes:
>     S> A) Which religion is it that can claim no foul actions in its
>     S> past?  Certainly not Christianity, Islam, etc.
> Rastafari.
> That is, if you concede that of the two founding branches, only the
> one founded by the Nyabingi were legit and the others were
> thinly-veneered anti-colonial hooligans.
> There is also Vietnamese Buddhism, unless you count setting fire to
> oneself as a "foul action".
What about Tibetan Buddhism BTW?  They seem like an awfully nice bunch
of chaps (and chapesses).
> When we launched the Native Net in 1989, one of the first things we
> noticed on networking aboriginal groups around the world is that the
> British Army, with the US Army as a proxy by extension, were the
> common thread.  Where neither was present (physically or through
> influence) there /tended/ to be less violence.
>
> The issue in Ireland is complex, but rest assured that religious
> aspects are only a co-incidence of the invader/colonials being
> predominantly members of the Royal-headed Anglicans and the aboriginal
> population being predominantly members of the Pope-headed Catholics.
> The conflict itself has nothing to do with ideology or practice, since
> the Anglican Church is a near-identical clone of Catholicism.
>
> (now I bet that's going to attract some healthy debate ;)
Man, I'm not going *there* again ;)  I'll agree, though, that the ideology
or practices of the religions have very little to do with the conflict.
> The same is true of street-gangs: When people are disenfranchised,
> it's easier to offer them the Triad as a new family.  You get
> cellphones, cars, a dry place to live.  Triad, biker gangs, mafia, the
> IRA, Al Queda ... we've been fighting the War on Terrorism for as long
> as there's been commerce, so you'd think we'd /realize/ that
> escalation of violence is not a solution.
Well said!
--j.


Chuck Murcko wrote:
> > The usual crud.  Why do morons ranting and beating their chests in the
> > National Review (or similar rags) merit FoRKing?
> Probably because we have this pesky 1st Amendment thing here.  [...]
It must be so great in the US.  The rest of us live in caves and have
no such thing as free speech.
BTW, I wasn't aware that the 1st Amendment mandated that crap must be FoRKed.
> You can just ignore it if you wish.
I will, thanks.
> But I must feel obligated to defend to the death your right to do so.
«Je désapprouve ce que vous dites, mais je défendrai jusqu'à ma mort votre
droit de le dire»
- Arouet Le Jeune, dit «Voltaire» (1694-1778).
R


On Tue, 2002-09-17 at 12:50, Justin Mason wrote:
> What about Tibetan Buddhism BTW?  They seem like an awfully nice bunch
> of chaps (and chapesses).
They were the ruling class of a feudal, farming society for quite some
time; I believe there were more than a few issues there. Certainly, not
everyone in Tibet is as excited about the Dalai Lama as Hollywood
appears to be. [Not that the Chinese are much better rights-wise, but
they've actually built roads and such, which led to the creation of
merchant classes and the like that never existed under the Tibetans.]
Luis


I have been told to take anything read in Pravda with a grain of salt...
but
this article certainly looks impressive when paired together with this other
one from the associated press...
Just the concept makes me shudder, imagining how easy it must be to smuggle
these things around some parts of Europe right now.
Hopefully, it's just my imagination.
-- Michael Cummins
Fort Lauderdale, FL
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

11:14 2002-09-13
200 SOVIET NUKES LOST IN UKRAINE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

20903/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_iraq_3
Ukraine-Iraq Arms Deals Alleged
Tue Sep 3, 6:07 PM ET
By TIM VICKERY, Associated Press Writer
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Rohit Khare - I wish you the best of luck in your search.  I found *my* Very
Special Lady when I was intentionally looking elsewhere... you never know
what
lurks around every corner.  Love certainly has its *own* agenda.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Scanned for viruses by the advanced mail servers at advantageservices.net


On Tue, Sep 17, 2002 at 10:19:13AM -0700, Chuck Murcko wrote:
> Probably because we have this pesky 1st Amendment thing here. Still,
> lots of us in the States have developed a disturbing tendency to shout
> down or (in recent years) shackle in legal BS opinions, thoughts, and
> individual behaviors we don't agree with.
>
Except that parroting the party line doesn't really require much
freedom of speech. Now if you had posted something from a left of
center source, you would have been shouted down in flames, buried in
ad hominem attacks, and probably get your name added to an FBI list.
Besides the basic rule in the United States now is "I'll defend your
rights to say anything you want, but if it isn't appropriately
neoconish, well, don't expect to work":
HHS Seeks Science Advice to Match Bush Views
By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 17, 2002; Page A01
The Bush administration has begun a broad restructuring of the
scientific advisory committees that guide federal policy in areas such
as patients' rights and public health, eliminating some committees
that were coming to conclusions at odds with the president's views and
in other cases replacing members with handpicked choices.
...

Owen


>>>>> "J" == Justin Mason
writes:
J> What about Tibetan Buddhism BTW?  They seem like an awfully
J> nice bunch of chaps (and chapesses).
Yes, them too.  When wolves attack their sheep, they coral the wolf
into a quarry and then throw rocks from the surrounding cliffs so
that "no one will know who killed the wolf"
In Samskar, before the Chinese arrived, there had not been a killing
in over 2000 years, and the last recorded skirmish, over rights to
a water hole, had happened several generations ago.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy - garym@teledyn.com - TeleDynamics Communications
- blog: ~teledyn - biz:  -
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." (Picasso)


Probably because we have this pesky 1st Amendment thing here. Still,
lots of us in the States have developed a disturbing tendency to shout
down or (in recent years) shackle in legal BS opinions, thoughts, and
individual behaviors we don't agree with.
You can just ignore it if you wish. But I must feel obligated to defend
to the death your right to do so.
Chuck
On Monday, September 16, 2002, at 06:54 AM, Robert Harley wrote:
The usual crud.  Why do morons ranting and beating their chests in the
National Review (or similar rags) merit FoRKing?


On Tue, 2002-09-17 at 11:16, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:
> >>>>> "J" == Justin Mason
writes:
>
>     J> What about Tibetan Buddhism BTW?  They seem like an awfully
>     J> nice bunch of chaps (and chapesses).
>
> Yes, them too.  When wolves attack their sheep, they coral the wolf
> into a quarry and then throw rocks from the surrounding cliffs so
> that "no one will know who killed the wolf"
>
> In Samskar, before the Chinese arrived, there had not been a killing
> in over 2000 years, and the last recorded skirmish, over rights to
> a water hole, had happened several generations ago.
I'm skeptical.
One of the many perversions of modern civilization is the fictitious
rendering of various peoples, frequently to the point where the fiction
is more "real" than the reality.  You see it over and over again in
history:  The Primitive People pull a fast one on Whitey The Junior
Anthropologist, playing to all the prejudices of Whitey (who only became
Junior Anthropologists to support personal ideologies), and before you
know it the charade takes on a life of its own which the Primitive
People are compelled to perpetuate.  Worse, even when there is
substantial evidence to the contrary with some basic scholarship, the
facts have a hard time competing with the ideologically pleasing fiction
that is already firmly entrenched.  And many peoples (e.g. American
Indians) develop a profit motive for maintaining and promoting the myth
in popular culture.
I'm far more inclined to believe that people is people, no matter where
you are on the planet.  The only time you see any anomalies is when you
have a self-selecting sub-population within an otherwise normal
population, which is hardly a fair way to look at any major population.
-James Rogers
jamesr@best.com


> All else being equal, the terminal velocity is inversely proportional to the
> square root of air density. Air density drops off pretty quickly, and I
> really should be doing something other than digging up the math for that. I
> think it involves calculus to integrate the amount of mass as the column of
> the atmosphere trails off.
Chemistry types have a method for
dealing with this question without
dragging in the calculus:
Suppose an atmosphere to be mainly
affected by gravity, resulting in
the potential energy for a mass M
to be linear in height h: Mgh.
What relative concentrations will
we have when two different packets
of air are in equilibrium?
If they are at the same height, we
will have half the mass in one, and
half the mass in the other, and the
amount flowing from one to the other
balances the amount flowing in the
opposite direction.[0]
If they are at differing heights,
then a greater percentage of the
higher air tends to descend than
that percentage of the lower air
which ascends.  In order for the
two flows to balance, the higher
packet must contain less air than
the lower, and the mass balance
of the flows corresponds thusly:
high percentage of thin air
---------------------------
low percentage of dense air
Now, rates are exponential in
energy differences[1], so that
theoretically we should expect
an exponential decay in height,
to compensate.  How does it go
in practice?
-Dave
[0] How well does it balance?
Chemical equilibria seem
stable, as they deal with
very large numbers over a
very long time.  Economic
equilibria are viewed from
the mayfly standpoint of
individual people, and so,
at best, the shot noise is
very visible.
[1] That is to say, rates will
be exponential in the free
energy differences between
endpoints and a transition
state.  We can ignore that
complication in this model.


> From: yyyy@spamassassin.taint.org
> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 9:50 AM
> > ... we've been fighting the War on Terrorism for as long
> > as there's been commerce, so you'd think we'd /realize/ that
> > escalation of violence is not a solution.
>
> Well said!
>
> --j.
Yeah.  It certainly wasn't a solution to the Carthaginian problem or the
Barbary Pirates.  Wait ... no ... actually ... it was a rather permanent
solution.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Luis Villa"
>
> They were the ruling class of a feudal, farming society for quite some
> time; I believe there were more than a few issues there. Certainly, not
> everyone in Tibet is as excited about the Dalai Lama as Hollywood
> appears to be. [Not that the Chinese are much better rights-wise, but
> they've actually built roads and such, which led to the creation of
> merchant classes and the like that never existed under the Tibetans.]
And it's not /going/ to exist under the Tibetans, because it'll be owned and
operated by Chinese nationals.


At 12:01 PM -0700 on 9/17/02, James Rogers wrote:
> The Primitive People pull a fast one on Whitey The Junior
> Anthropologist
Or Margaret, in the case of a famous proto-feminist...
Cheers,
RAH
--
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'


Because of this:

there are several of us who are in the BDSM lifestyle who are trying to
encourage our local groups to find alternatives to yahoo groups as a way
of communicating with each other.  I've set up a place to have maillists
on my server for any group who wants to use it, but I was wondering if
anyone knows of an alternative that allows all the bells and whistles that
yahoo has, such as reminders, file storage, calendars, etc.  Anyone?
TIA,
Cindy
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


At Fermi (yes I'm back there; long story), we're buying 4U systems like
the fiscal year is ending.  We have ~20 ASA IR4US1 systems (not pushing
them, there are some other similar units available), with 60 more on
order.  They're 2-1/2 TB for $10K, although we add a separate IDE or
SCSI system disk, because the 3Ware RAID controllers can saturate.
Intel SDS2 motherboard, 2 1.4GHz P3s, 2 GB ram, 2 3Ware 7850 Raid
controllers, 16 160GB Maxtors, SysKonnect gigabit enet, Fermi RedHat 7.3.

There's some interesting info at:
~msn/cdf/caf/server_evaluation.html
We've decided to go with XFS (which Linus has just merged into the 2.5
tree), mostly because none of the other journaled fs's can maintain >30
GB/s rates with a nearly full filesystem (mostly GB files) with random
deletions (we use these systems for caching our 2 petabyte tape store).
Ext3 almost did it but dropped from from ~38MB/s to 10 with random
deletions, and didn't want to do direct io at all.  Only concern is an
occasional system lock-up we haven't chased down yet.  A load avg > 100
is always a patio of fun.
Oddly, even fairly beefy systems like these will breathe hard to keep up
with the new STK 9940B tape drives, which crank along at a steady
30GB/s.  And you oldforktimers will remember "doofus" my old file server
system.  It would only take 2.1" of rackspace now, instead of 14 racks.
Cheers,
Wayne


Yes, it's nice to be back in America's flaccid state ...
Seems like only yesterday we were suffering electile dysfunction ...
Maybe if they made the ballot ovals look like little blue pills ...
No, seriously ... I'm here all week ... You were great ...
'nite everybody


I'm a bit confused about this boycott thing.  How is what China is
doing any different than having Scientology and who ever else
state-side who takes the whim evoking the DMCA to close down foreign
sites they deem inappropriate?  At least the Chinese make it voluntary
and ask politely, rather than just sending legal musclemen first off.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy - garym@teledyn.com - TeleDynamics Communications
- blog: ~teledyn - biz:  -
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." (Picasso)


Robert Harley writes:
> Chuck Murcko wrote:
> > But I must feel obligated to defend to the death your right to do so.
>
> «Je désapprouve ce que vous dites, mais je défendrai jusqu'à ma mort votre
> droit de le dire»
> - Arouet Le Jeune, dit «Voltaire» (1694-1778).
Here's hoping that tradition perseveres for the novelist
currently on trial in Paris for calling Islam "the stupidest
religion"...

# Tuesday September 17 11:07 AM EST
#
# French Writer Tried As Anti-Islam, Protest Erupts
# By Caroline Brothers
#
# PARIS (Reuters) - Provocative French novelist Michel Houellebecq
# faced a Paris court on Tuesday for allegedly inciting racial hatred
# by calling Islam "the stupidest religion" and its holy book the
# Koran a depressing read.
#
# The case, brought against him by four Muslim groups, is a cause
# celebre reminiscent of the Salman Rushdie affair, pitting freedom of
# expression against religious sensitivities.
#
# The Muslim groups, which include the Mecca-based World Islamic
# League and the Paris Mosque, accuse the writer of insulting Islam in
# an interview with the literary magazine "Lire" during last year's
# launch of his novel "Plateforme."
#
# Lire is also on trial over the remarks, which have taken on an added
# significance in France in the atmosphere of heightened sensitivity
# and concern about Islam following the September 11 attacks by Muslim
# radicals in the United States.
#
# Shortly after the trial started, 11 people in the courtroom stripped
# off their shirts to reveal T-shirts saying "No to the censure of the
# imams" and "Marianne veiled, Marianne raped" -- a reference to the
# female symbol of the French republic.
#
# "Freedom of expression! freedom of expression!" they and other
# Houellebecq supporters chanted after they were thrown out of the
# courtroom at the main law courts in central Paris.
#
# While intellectuals argued before the trial that Houellebecq should
# be free to write what he wants, Lyon Mosque rector Kamel Kabtan
# retorted: "We are for freedom of expression, but not for insulting
# communities."
#
# BETE NOIRE
#
# Houellebecq, 45, the bete noire of contemporary French literature,
# is no stranger to controversy. He offended conservatives and the
# politically correct left with his 1998 novel "Les Particules
# Elementaires" ("Atomised" in English).
#
# Paris Mosque rector Dalil Boubakeur says Muslims have been insulted
# once before by Houellebecq, who had the main character in Plateforme
# admit he felt "a quiver of glee" every time a "Palestinian
# terrorist" was killed.
#
# The World Islamic League, the Lyon Mosque and the National
# Federation of Muslims in France have joined the Paris Mosque in
# bringing Houellebecq to trial.
#
# France's Human Rights League joined them as a civil party, saying
# Houellebecq's comments amounted to "Islamophobia" and deserved to be
# sanctioned as part of the league's struggle against discrimination
# and racism.
#
# The Paris Mosque has hired Jean-Marc Varaut, one of France's leading
# trial lawyers, whose past clients include Maurice Papon, the former
# official condemned in 1998 for Nazi-era crimes against humanity for
# sending Jews to death camps.
#
# RESTORING BLASPHEMY?
#
# Houellebecq's lawyer Emmanuel Pierrat argues that the case
# effectively re-establishes the notion of blasphemy, despite the fact
# that France as a secular state has no such law, and says
# Houellebecq's opponents want to deny him freedom of expression.
#
# He also argues that the interview in Lire truncated a six-hour
# conversation and Houellebecq was not given the chance to approve the
# article before it appeared.
#
# Houellebecq's publisher Flammarion has distanced itself from the
# author, whose comments some say may have cost him France's
# prestigious Goncourt prize -- for which he had been a contender.
#
# The novelist, who lives outside Cork, Ireland, writes in a detached
# style about a bleak world in which people have forgotten how to
# love.
#
# Translated into 25 languages, "Atomised" incensed France's 1968
# generation with its scathing descriptions of the hippie era but won
# him France's November prize in 1998 and the Impac award, one of the
# world's biggest fiction prizes.
#
# Losing his case may mean a year in jail or a $51,000 fine.
- Gordon


"Adam L. Beberg" wrote:
> So, who has done RSA implementation before?
/me raises hand.
> Having a typo-I-cant-spot problem with my CRT...
Send me the source.
R


Pity.  Reading that woman's ad and knowing Rohit for years, they sound
like a match made in heaven.  But why, oh, why, keep that shaved-head
photo on prominent display???  There are lots of photos of Rohit
looking rather dashing, and with the crucial hair feature enabled!
R


CDale wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anyone knows of an alternative that allows
> all the bells and whistles that yahoo has, such as reminders,
> file storage, calendars, etc.
SmartGroups, I think.
--
#ken	P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini
Author, developer, opinionist
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


On Tue, Sep 17, 2002 at 09:11:01PM -0700, Paul Prescod wrote:
> Owen Byrne wrote:
> >...
> >
> >Except that parroting the party line doesn't really require much
> >freedom of speech. Now if you had posted something from a left of
> >center source, you would have been shouted down in flames, buried in
> >ad hominem attacks, and probably get your name added to an FBI list.
>
> Do you think it is really useful to combat hysterical right-wing
> propoganda with hysterical left-wing propoganda?
>
Sure it is - it tends to bring out the people who let "hysterical
right wing propaganda" spew forth, while reaching for their gun
whenever a "liberal" enters the room.
my hysterical left wing "propaganda" is generally an emotional
reaction on a mailing list, not an organizaed attempt at converting
people's thinking through lies and distortion (as was the original
article).
Whereas your constant and predictable brandings of my postings are, to
my mind, a deliberate and reasoned  effort to reduce debate, and
discourage left of center postngs.
Owen


Well I don't think China could force Yahoo! to give up info.  So if they
are so willing to give it, why wouldn't they be willing to give info to
some silly group who may one day decide to get a hair up their ass about
the practice of BDSMers? (not to mention folks who don't even practice,
but who are just interested in information) What about folks who are
interested in talking about software security issues?  Didja read about
the guy in China who got 11 years for downloading and printing out pro-democracy
info?

I'm confused about what you're confused about.
Cindy
On 18 Sep 2002, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:
>
> I'm a bit confused about this boycott thing.  How is what China is
> doing any different than having Scientology and who ever else
> state-side who takes the whim evoking the DMCA to close down foreign
> sites they deem inappropriate?  At least the Chinese make it voluntary
> and ask politely, rather than just sending legal musclemen first off.
>
>
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


At 7:13 AM -0400 on 9/18/02, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> SmartGroups, I think.
Dave Farber's Interesting People list just went over to
Cheers,
RAH
--
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'


>>>>> "E" == Eirikur Hallgrimsson
writes:
E> You just can't tell important things from a picture and a few
E> words.  It's not how we are built.  There's no geek code for
E> the heart and soul.
Nor is there a Turing Test, even for someone with whom you've spent 11
years, boom, bust and boom again, and 3 children (trust me) There is
no magic litmus test other than the totally empirical: "Try it and
see"
"String bags full of oranges
And matters of the heart,
People laugh at /anything/
And things just fall apart."
- michael leunig
The only real test, the only /sensible/ test, is to look back and
realize your relationship has lasted 50 years and see no reason to
believe it couldn't last another 50.  In the absense of 50 years of
actual (ahem) hands-on experiential data, a photo and a few words are
as good as any, provided you are prepared for the dynamics of it.
Love is a verb.  Sex is a /shared/ pursuit.  There is no
'relation-ship', there is only the crew.  sail away!
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy - garym@teledyn.com - TeleDynamics Communications
- blog: ~teledyn - biz:  -
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." (Picasso)


On Wednesday 18 September 2002 06:47 am, Robert Harley wrote:
> ....and with the crucial hair feature enabled!
That got a good laugh out of me.   Just saying "crucial hair feature"
improves my day immeasurably.
I've done a fair amount of thinking about the "media intermediated" meeting
thing.   It seriously loses for reasons like Rohit's just encountered.
One is both rejected for trivial reasons and rejects for the same.
Some people loudly defend that these choices are not trivial.
I'd have never met my best friend if I had to pick her out of a crowd for
getting to know.   I was a teen at the time, but I won't say I'm much
improved at being able to spot "interesting" at a distance.   Interesting
isn't an external thing.  I have that brought home to me again every so
often.  I may think that interesting people dress differently or whatever,
but that's total superstition.   How do I know what your version of
creative attire is?  Maybe it's purely functional.
I was at a loud party recently, sufficiently loud that conversation of any
kind was extremely difficult, and intoxication was the norm.   I was
working on what my algorithm for meeting people there should be and one of
the candidates was "women, in order of attractiveness."   I flinched from
that, rather violently.   At a trade show, or something, I might elect to
talk to the people who are looking at interesting exhibits.   At a
party.....well, if you can't hear the conversation they are having, or if
on the net all you have is a photo.....
You just can't tell important things from a picture and a few words.  It's
not how we are built.   There's no geek code for the heart and soul.
(And if there were people would lie and game the system.)
It's too easy to say "Oh, no!  He's a geek!"   or "She's a CAT person,
ick!" when you might have a great time together.
We are constructed to form alliances based on how we fit together as
people, how we feel in the other person's company, how well we partner on
tasks and recreation.   This is all entirely speculative based on nothing
but superstitious association unless you actually have time in the
person's company.   Which is why we tend to be screwed when our circle of
exposure shrinks after school.
Personally, as a writer, the whole internet meet & email thing ought to
work better for me than it does for other people, but interestingly, it
doesn't.   I have to put out the same amount of effort and reap about the
same poor results.    I have to think it's not the people, but the tool.
An aside (okay, yes, I'm a tool geek):  Speed Dating
Speed Dating (aka 7 Minute Dating) is a live-action stab at actual time in
the company of a variety of people, compressed into one event.   I think
it's noticably better, but still absolutely nothing like working on a
project together, cooking, climbing a mountain or whatever.
It was, in fact, invented as a jewish thing seeking to match up the young
people to avoid total assimilation.   It has too much "interview" context
and no shared activity beyond that.   I give it several points for effort
though.
I guess my impression that even the Speed Dating thing doesn't do much for
you means that the traditional advice of "join activities groups" is
actually sound.
Eirikur


Gordon Mohr quoted:
># French Writer Tried As Anti-Islam, Protest Erupts
># By Caroline Brothers
>#
># PARIS (Reuters) - Provocative French novelist Michel Houellebecq
># faced a Paris court on Tuesday for allegedly inciting racial hatred
># by calling Islam "the stupidest religion" and its holy book the
># Koran a depressing read.
>#
># The case, brought against him by four Muslim groups, is a cause
># celebre reminiscent of the Salman Rushdie affair, pitting freedom of
># expression against religious sensitivities.
Very reminiscent indeed.  Ayatollah Chirac has decreed a death
sentence on Houellebecq and liked-minded fundamentalists have offered
millions of euros bounty for his head, so he has gone into hiding
under police protection for a few years.
Or maybe some handful of Muslims are acting uppity and dragging him to
court under "hate speech" laws make a point about people not showin'
dem da massive respect dat dey deserve, especially these days.
Or maybe some journo is trying to fill column inches on a boring day.
BTW I read Houellebecq's "Extension du domaine de la lutte" recently,
about a depressed computer services dude working in Paris, looking for
love and not finding it, slowing losing his marbles and trying to get
a friend of his to kill a woman, and ending up in a clinic for
nutcases...  Yikes!  Purposely provocative, very depressing, with some
unbelievably boring passages where the anti-hero writes little stories
about animals talking philosophical mumbo-jumbo to each other, quoted
inline in full for pages on end.
It starts out:
"On Friday evening, I was invited to a party with some colleagues from
work.  There were about thrity of us, all professionals aged from
twenty-five to forty.  At one point, some cunt started getting
undressed. She took off her T-shirt, then her bra, then her skirt, all
the while making unbelievable faces.  She pranced around for a few
seconds, then she started getting dresesd again because she didn't
know what else to do.  Anyway she never sleeps with anyone.  Which
underlines the absurdity of her behaviour.
After my fourth glass of vodka I started to feel pretty bad so I had
to go lie down on a bunch of cushions behind the couch.  Shortly after
that, two girls came and sat on the couch.  Those girls are not pretty
at all, the two fat office cows actually.  They go to eat together and
read books about the development of language in children, all that
sort of stuff."
... and it's downhill from there!
R


Hear hear, Gary.  I'm living with a guy right now who I met at a party,
emailed with for 2 weeks, then powie!  We were both looking at similar
goals in life in general, had some attraction for each other, and decided
to wing it.  I can't say what's going to happen tomorrow, but right now,
and for the past few months, we've been happy.  Onward Ho!  (:
Cindy
On 18 Sep 2002, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:
> >>>>> "E" == Eirikur Hallgrimsson
writes:
>
>     E> You just can't tell important things from a picture and a few
>     E> words.  It's not how we are built.  There's no geek code for
>     E> the heart and soul.
>
> Nor is there a Turing Test, even for someone with whom you've spent 11
> years, boom, bust and boom again, and 3 children (trust me) There is
> no magic litmus test other than the totally empirical: "Try it and
> see"
>
> "String bags full of oranges
>  And matters of the heart,
>  People laugh at /anything/
>  And things just fall apart."
>  - michael leunig
>
> The only real test, the only /sensible/ test, is to look back and
> realize your relationship has lasted 50 years and see no reason to
> believe it couldn't last another 50.  In the absense of 50 years of
> actual (ahem) hands-on experiential data, a photo and a few words are
> as good as any, provided you are prepared for the dynamics of it.
>
> Love is a verb.  Sex is a /shared/ pursuit.  There is no
> 'relation-ship', there is only the crew.  sail away!
>
>
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


Perhaps we should start a grass roots movement here on FoRK and send the
nice lady a few emails on his behalf? Better yet, why don't we see on
who can write the best personals ad for Rohit? I'll post the best one to
Craigs' list on his behalf. The winner can take me out to dinner. (No,
really, I'm charming.)
Elias
Robert Harley wrote:
>Pity.  Reading that woman's ad and knowing Rohit for years, they sound
>like a match made in heaven.  But why, oh, why, keep that shaved-head
>photo on prominent display???  There are lots of photos of Rohit
>looking rather dashing, and with the crucial hair feature enabled!
>
>R
>


On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Tom wrote:
> The others are on mailing list only status for now. A few of the
> groups I was in that are run by others are harder to deal with since
> many folks just dont want to have to deal with the inconvienence of a
> understanding.
I've terminated a number of my own mailing lists at yahoogroups many
months ago because of similiar sentiments. I've tried lobbying other
people to move, but with about zero success.
I've got currently only one own mailing list there, which I'm going to
move as soon as it is technically possible (which is my ISP's problem,
basically). After that, I intend to kick yahoogroups for good.


On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
--]I know it's not the popular choice for a lot of people, but I'd
--]suggest, um, church. :-). Like Woody Allen said, 90% of life is
--]showing up, right?
--]
I think another venue for finding people is the workplace. As a contractor
I have had the opertunity to meet lots of eligables over the course of my
wandering workhistory.
My wife was my Task Order Manager years ago, thats  how we met. Her joke
is that she is still my Task Order Manager but now I dont get paid:)-
By starting up your own companies or working in sterile thinklabs you are
cutting yourself off from one heck of a fertile ground for linkages....the
common office.
I like the shurch idea as well. Other ideas...
Book circles, geocaching groups, heck Rhorho your still young enough to
hit the campus mixers...and I mean the social stuff not the techtech
events.
Above all, ask yourself whats important to you..
Life, you either life it or you waste it.
-tom


Church, AA, same diff?
;-).
Cheers,
RAH

NewsMax.com
Wednesday, September 18, 2002
AA Meetings the Hottest Place to Meet Women With Big Bucks
If you're looking to hook up with female millionaires you could try some of
the classier restaurants or clubs, but the best place of all is a certain
New York City Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.
According to a Details magazine story cited in the New York Post, "the No.
1 location to score a megabucks babe is an Alcoholics Anonymous center on
[New York's] Upper East Side.
"It's the choicest meeting in town, right next to the Ralph Lauren store"
on Madison Avenue, which features "rich vulnerable women," the mag's
October issue says.
AA officials were not overjoyed by having the address of their meeting
place published, or being cited as the "in" place for finding loaded women
- or rather, women who are loaded.
"The purpose of our meetings is to let people share their experiences and
help others find sobriety. It is not a place to pick up women!" an AA
spokesman told The Post.
O.K.
Return
--
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'


On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
--]Church, AA, same diff?
AA is sort of church with ashtrays.


On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
--]AA Meetings the Hottest Place to Meet Women With Big Bucks
And, as always, you can take a page out of Fight Club and start showing up
at all sorts of support groups. Look what it did for Marla and Jack...
"JACK You can't have *both* parasites. You take blood parasites and --
MARLA I want brain parasites.
She opens another dryer and does the same thing again. PG 19
JACK Okay. I'll take blood parasites and I'll take organic brain dementia
and --
MARLA I want that.
JACK You can't have the whole brain!
MARLA So far, you have four and I have two!
JACK Well, then, take blood  parasites. Now, we each have three.
MARLA So, we each have three -- that's six. What  about the seventh day? I
want ascending bowel cancer.
JACK *I* want ascending bowel cancer.
MARLA That's your favorite, too? Tried to slip it by me, huh?
JACK We'll split it. You get it the first and third Sunday of the month.
MARLA Deal."


advice to the lovelorn haiku
serendipity
pilots synchronicity:
turn the next corner.
-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 7:13 PM
To: R. A. Hettinga
Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
Subject: Re: AA Meetings the Hottest Place to Meet Women With Big Bucks
On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
--]AA Meetings the Hottest Place to Meet Women With Big Bucks
And, as always, you can take a page out of Fight Club and start showing up
at all sorts of support groups. Look what it did for Marla and Jack...
"JACK You can't have *both* parasites. You take blood parasites and --
MARLA I want brain parasites.
She opens another dryer and does the same thing again. PG 19
JACK Okay. I'll take blood parasites and I'll take organic brain dementia
and --
MARLA I want that.
JACK You can't have the whole brain!
MARLA So far, you have four and I have two!
JACK Well, then, take blood  parasites. Now, we each have three.
MARLA So, we each have three -- that's six. What  about the seventh day? I
want ascending bowel cancer.
JACK *I* want ascending bowel cancer.
MARLA That's your favorite, too? Tried to slip it by me, huh?
JACK We'll split it. You get it the first and third Sunday of the month.
MARLA Deal."


At 11:06 AM 9/18/02 -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>Dave Farber's Interesting People list just went over to
>
It always was, I think. Meng Weng Wong, the founder of pobox, listbox et al
was a student of Dave Farber's.
Listbox just upgraded its software, however.
Udhay
--
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))


less obscure haiku
buy a puppy, ro!
they are chick magnets. master
ventriloquism.
gg
-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 7:13 PM
To: R. A. Hettinga
Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
Subject: Re: AA Meetings the Hottest Place to Meet Women With Big Bucks
On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
--]AA Meetings the Hottest Place to Meet Women With Big Bucks
And, as always, you can take a page out of Fight Club and start showing up
at all sorts of support groups. Look what it did for Marla and Jack...
"JACK You can't have *both* parasites. You take blood parasites and --
MARLA I want brain parasites.
She opens another dryer and does the same thing again. PG 19
JACK Okay. I'll take blood parasites and I'll take organic brain dementia
and --
MARLA I want that.
JACK You can't have the whole brain!
MARLA So far, you have four and I have two!
JACK Well, then, take blood  parasites. Now, we each have three.
MARLA So, we each have three -- that's six. What  about the seventh day? I
want ascending bowel cancer.
JACK *I* want ascending bowel cancer.
MARLA That's your favorite, too? Tried to slip it by me, huh?
JACK We'll split it. You get it the first and third Sunday of the month.
MARLA Deal."


And the ever popular...
Or bring a baby,
Provided you do not own,
Women come, at baby's cry.
GS> less obscure haiku
GS> buy a puppy, ro!
GS> they are chick magnets. master
GS> ventriloquism.
GS> gg
GS> -----Original Message-----
GS> From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of Tom
GS> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 7:13 PM
GS> To: R. A. Hettinga
GS> Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
GS> Subject: Re: AA Meetings the Hottest Place to Meet Women With Big Bucks
GS> On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
GS> --]AA Meetings the Hottest Place to Meet Women With Big Bucks
GS> And, as always, you can take a page out of Fight Club and start showing up
GS> at all sorts of support groups. Look what it did for Marla and Jack...
GS> "JACK You can't have *both* parasites. You take blood parasites and --
GS> MARLA I want brain parasites.
GS> She opens another dryer and does the same thing again. PG 19
GS> JACK Okay. I'll take blood parasites and I'll take organic brain dementia
GS> and --
GS> MARLA I want that.
GS> JACK You can't have the whole brain!
GS> MARLA So far, you have four and I have two!
GS> JACK Well, then, take blood  parasites. Now, we each have three.
GS> MARLA So, we each have three -- that's six. What  about the seventh day? I
GS> want ascending bowel cancer.
GS> JACK *I* want ascending bowel cancer.
GS> MARLA That's your favorite, too? Tried to slip it by me, huh?
GS> JACK We'll split it. You get it the first and third Sunday of the month.
GS> MARLA Deal."
--
Best regards,
bitbitch                            mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net


Tom wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>--]I know it's not the popular choice for a lot of people, but I'd
>--]suggest, um, church. :-). Like Woody Allen said, 90% of life is
>--]showing up, right?
>--]
>
>I think another venue for finding people is the workplace. As a contractor
>I have had the opertunity to meet lots of eligables over the course of my
>wandering workhistory.
>
>My wife was my Task Order Manager years ago, thats  how we met. Her joke
>is that she is still my Task Order Manager but now I dont get paid:)-
>
>
Sure if you're willing to risk firing, lawsuits, etc. The last full time
job I had the sexual harassement seminar
was pretty clear - yes you can have relationships at the office, but its
extremely difficult, and the pitfalls are
horrendous.
Owen


This sort of thing is, in my (limited?) experience, increasingly a thing
of the past. Not one person I know has found it worth the risk to pursue
a relationship with someone in the workplace. It's terrible to think we
could litigate our way into extinction...!
Elias
Owen Byrne wrote:
> ... The last full time job I had the sexual harassement seminar
> was pretty clear - yes you can have relationships at the office, but
> its extremely difficult, and the pitfalls are horrendous.


--- begin forwarded text
Subject: [dgc.chat] First public release of NeuDist Distributed Transaction
Clearing	Framework
From: Pelle Braendgaard
To: dgcchat@lists.goldmoney.com
Cc: Digital Bearer Settlement List
, DGCChat
, xmlx
Date: 19 Sep 2002 00:05:39 -0500
Reply-To:
I'm happy to announce the first public release of NeuDist
NeuDist is an Open Source Software framework for building applications
for the Neubia Distributed Clearing Platform.
This release contains early java libraries and documentation that would
primarily be of interest to developers.
Talking about documentation, it is still a bit slim and mainly oriented
towards people with experience in Java/XML development.
There are currently no sample applications, but they will be available
in the next release.
The framework currently contains the following:
- Classes for creating "Named Objects", which are authenticated using
digital signatures within a hierarchy.
- Storage framework for "Named Objects".
- Simple XML-Signature implementation (Almost certainly not yet
interoperable with other implementations)
- Simple SOAP client
- Simple Servlet API for handling SOAP requests based on "Named
Objects".
- Current types of "Named Objects" include:
NameSpace objects -- for maintaining the NameSpace Authentication
Framework
AuthenticationTickets -- for doing web site authentication using
digital signatures.
Next major release is scheduled to contain:
- Core:
hard coded root public key, for authenticating top level 	NameSpaces
- Signing Services:
Implementation of web based signing services
End user hosted signing service
- Example User Authentication Application
- Example Payment System based on NeuDist
I will be expanding the documentation over the next few weeks. This will
cover not only more indepth technical documentation, but also higher
level documentation about the business side of things.
Read more about NeuDist or download our early version at

I would love to hear your questions and suggestions. To discuss it
further please join neudist-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
You can join it at:

Regards
Pelle
--
Antilles Software Ventures SA
My Web Log Live and Direct from Panama
Views of an EconoFist
subscribe: send blank email to dgcchat-join@lists.goldmoney.com
unsubscribe: send blank email to dgcchat-leave@lists.goldmoney.com
digest: send an email to dgcchat-request@lists.goldmoney.com
with "set yourname@yourdomain.com digest=on" in the message body
--- end forwarded text
--
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
_______________________________________________
Irregulars mailing list
Irregulars@tb.tf


This is for those that have interacted with D Winer
"Dave's idea of love is fucking everyone else without so much as a reach
around.  You're supposed to just shut up and take it."

===========
Who's the real monster?
It seems good Ol' Uncle Dave is once again trying to savage anyone that
dares to disagree with him.  It seems Ben, Kevin and Bill are making too
strong a case.  So here we Dave's attempt to fool you into thinking they're
some sort of monsters, violent ones no less.
Anyone who works with Hemenway or Kearney should be aware that these people
are nothing less than monsters, who will stoop to any level to get their
way.
Yeah sure Dave, whatever you need to believe.
The truth is these folks do a fine job of actually helping others and
improving RSS in general.  Each with their own brand of attitude, to be
sure, but they seem to be pretty focused on actually helping things move
forward.  How is that being monstrous?
Is Dave trying to slander their good names and thus poison the public's
perception of them?  If you haven't already, contact them and ask them how
they feel about this foolishness.
9/18/02; 10:07:38 AM - Discuss
Dave deflects what he can't take the time to understand
It's really quite pitiful.  When normal people don't understand something
they usually try learning about it.  They read up, ask questions and seek
the help of those that understand it.  This before shooting their mouths off
and looking like fools.
What Dave does is just the opposite.
Posts a link to something he doesn't understand
Get's a bunch of e-mail from people who do understand it
Derides the idea as being 'too much trouble' and blogs it.
Expects others to do research for him
Abuses anyone who tries to help him
Pontificates, incorrectly, about only part of the issue
Realizes he's been a fool but refuses to correct himself
Plods forward pedantically trying to defend his idiocy
Tries making the educated people look like fools.
Sends private e-mails to them trying to scare them off.
Exposes any private e-mail they write, out of context.
Deflects and runs off to some new topic, repeats from #1
His continued diatribes about RSS-1.0 and it's use of RDF reveal this to be
true.  Dave doesn't get the idea of the semantic web.  He'd rather have you
follow his stupid ideas than dare admit that the work of others is worth
trying.
One reader wrote to us with a good analogy.  "It's like that movie The
Poseidon Adventure.  Dave's like the purser ranting and raving that the
passengers should follow him and march toward the bow.  I don't know about
you but I'd rather be with the fat lady swimming toward the engine room.
The ship's fucking sinking and I don't want to be following the idiot."
Dave's idea of love is fucking everyone else without so much as a reach
around.  You're supposed to just shut up and take it.  After all, why would
good ol' Uncle Dave want to hurt you?  It's all about love, right?  To hell
with asking you if you want to get shafted.  And if you dare complain, he
savages you.  Then he tries to make everyone think you're the one causing
all the trouble.
We've news for you Dave, we're wise to your tactics and we're talking
amongst ourselves about it.  We're routing around you damaging behavoir.
That's where we're coming from.
If you have an example of how you've tried to help Dave, please drop us an
e-mail about it.  We'll keep it strictly confidential of course.  Send it
along to zaphod@egroups.com
9/12/02; 10:13:11 AM - Discuss
Trying to talk with Dave is like trying to wrestle a pig...
The trouble is, you get dirty and the pig seems to like it.
Another developer tries talking to Dave and discovers it's fundamentally
impossible:
His basic response was just that RDF was a joke and the Semantic Web
developers are doing a terrible job.
In the span of less than five minutes Dave makes such an ass of himself that
people at other tables start whispering "that guy is an idiot..."
The zaphodim, however, are veteran pig wrestlers.  If you've got a similar
tale from the mud pit, be sure to drop us a line at: zaphod@egroups.com.
9/11/02; 2:17:58 PM - Discuss (1 response)
Aha! Some backing down by the whining one?
It would appear the 'dictator release' strategy that Dave's been trying on
his crappy little set of RSS hacks is failing to gain support.
I'm going to push back the caveat-removing on the 2.0 spec by 24 hours.
Still have work to do on the sample file, I want to look into the RFC for
time-date specs, and get started on the Radio implementation of 2.0. I have
to prepare for Seybold tomorrow, and I want to a little memorial for 9-11. A
busy few days for a guy still recovering. Also, it would be great if people
who make content tools could review the 2.0 spec and see if there are any
deal-stoppers.
Hell yeah there are deal stoppers, like nobody wants it nor will they use
it!
The poor Radio customers!  The poor Salon blog users!  They're going to be
dragged unwillingly into producing XML content that nobody will use!  So
with the flip of his mighty upgrade switch Dave is going to turn all their
content into totally unsupported garbage!!!
Ya better speak up now folks otherwise your content is going to start
getting rejected!
Of course at the same time Dave tries to play the sympathy card.  What utter
fucking nonsense.  This past weekend, the blogosphere excoriates him for his
'blame America' bullshit.  Then the RSS community tells him to get stuffed
with his dictator release of RSS.  Now he's trying to pretend we should be
nice to him because he's still recovering?
Uh, Dave, if you want to take a rest from the battle then stop picking
fights.  We'll still kick your ass regardless.  That's what years of your
abusing people has gotten you Dave.  No sympathy anymore, none whatsoever.
9/11/02; 1:56:10 PM - Discuss
Dave is Scary on 9/11
Posted on Scripting News on 9/10/2002:
Note: During the day tomorrow there will be no updates to Scripting News.
I'll be in SF at Seybold, leading a discussion on Web Services for
Publishing with people from Amazon, Apple, Google and Jake Savin of
UserLand. I may be able to update my Radio weblog, but only if there's
something really important to report. So best wishes for a happy and safe
9-11.
What kind of asshole wishes people a happy 9/11??!?!?!?!??!! Obviously
someone who doesn't have a clue nor lost anyone in the tragedy.
9/11/02; 7:56:06 AM - Discuss
Yeow and we though we were harsh!
Wow, apparently Dave's sticking his neck out quite far these days.  Craig
Schamp practically keel-hauls him with this one.  He wraps it up with:
The man seems to show over and over that he's nothing more than a whining
buffoon
Give that man an honorary Zaphodim membership card and secret decoder ring!
Related links over at PhotoDude, Richard Bennett, Andrea Harris, Reid Stott,
Jeff Jarvis, Ipse Dixit, and the Fat Guy.
9/9/02; 12:29:45 PM - Discuss
RSS 2.0: code name "Hitler"
If Dave tries to steamroll RSS 2.0 through without formal community
consensus, here now we call it the "Hitler" release of 2.0.
"No objections"?  No, he means "No objections I choose to hear."
Dave is simply not listening.  People are objecting all over.
9/6/02; 9:00:02 AM - Discuss
Referral log funnies
Every now and then we check the referral logs to see what's pointing back to
us.  We sincerely apologize to the pool soul that used this search.
9/5/02; 12:15:07 PM - Discuss
Luserland Attempts to Trademark "RSS"
Dave has waxed and waned about intellectual property rights and how any
BigCo that tries to patent its technology or methods is corrupt or morally
bankrupt. Scripting News is full of examples.
So we found it surprising, as did many others, when Luserland software tried
to patent the term 'RSS' back in 2000. Here's the patent application:

This was apparently just between the start of the RSS 1.0 development
efforts, and the publication of the specification. Winer knew about the RSS
1.0 stuff - indeed, he complained about it bitterly at the time.
Could Dave be any more transparent?!?!??!?!!!!!!!
Since when has Dave been required to follow anything he says he wants others
to do??? A good quote from before he filed the patent application:
Tim O'Reilly says patents are OK, he's just against stupid patents. In the
spirit of Touch of Grey, Tim man, patents are lock-in of the worst kind.
There's no way to route around them.
9/4/02; 6:06:51 AM - Discuss
When's a Permalink not a Permalink?
When Dave writes an item, then removes it!!!!!!!!!!! The permalink links to
nothing at that point. So apparently the "perma-" part in permalink is
permanent. For everyone except Dave. Too bad his little attempt at a
definition fails to mention this...!!!!!!!!!
9/2/02; 6:16:03 PM - Discuss


>It seems good Ol' Uncle Dave is once again trying to savage anyone that
>dares to disagree with him.  It seems Ben, Kevin and Bill are making too
>strong a case.  So here we Dave's attempt to fool you into thinking they're
>some sort of monsters, violent ones no less.
>
>Anyone who works with Hemenway or Kearney should be aware that these people
>are nothing less than monsters, who will stoop to any level to get their
/me coughs... I'm part of the Monster club. They call me... Hemenway!
--
Morbus Iff ( i assault your sensibilities! )
Culture:  and
Tech:  - articles and weblog
icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus


Heh, ten years ago saying the exact same words was most definitely not
"parroting the party line".
It was even less so thirty years ago. My story remains the same, take it
or leave it. I've said the same words to white supremacists as to
suburban leftist punks as to homeys as to French Irish, etc. etc.:
I don't have to agree with anything you say. I *am* obligated to defend
to the death your right to say it. I don't give a rat's ass where you
say it, even in France. I don't care where the political pendulum has
swung currently.
Chuck
On Tuesday, September 17, 2002, at 10:38 AM, Owen Byrne wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2002 at 10:19:13AM -0700, Chuck Murcko wrote:
>> Probably because we have this pesky 1st Amendment thing here. Still,
>> lots of us in the States have developed a disturbing tendency to shout
>> down or (in recent years) shackle in legal BS opinions, thoughts, and
>> individual behaviors we don't agree with.
>>
>
> Except that parroting the party line doesn't really require much
> freedom of speech. Now if you had posted something from a left of
> center source, you would have been shouted down in flames, buried in
> ad hominem attacks, and probably get your name added to an FBI list.
>
>
> Besides the basic rule in the United States now is "I'll defend your
> rights to say anything you want, but if it isn't appropriately
> neoconish, well, don't expect to work":
>
>
> HHS Seeks Science Advice to Match Bush Views
>
> By Rick Weiss
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Tuesday, September 17, 2002; Page A01
>
> The Bush administration has begun a broad restructuring of the
> scientific advisory committees that guide federal policy in areas such
> as patients' rights and public health, eliminating some committees
> that were coming to conclusions at odds with the president's views and
> in other cases replacing members with handpicked choices.
> ...
>
>
> Owen
>


Chuck Murcko wrote:
> Heh, ten years ago saying the exact same words was most definitely not
> "parroting the party line".
>
> It was even less so thirty years ago. My story remains the same, take
> it or leave it. I've said the same words to white supremacists as to
> suburban leftist punks as to homeys as to French Irish, etc. etc.:
>
> I don't have to agree with anything you say. I *am* obligated to
> defend to the death your right to say it. I don't give a rat's ass
> where you say it, even in France. I don't care where the political
> pendulum has swung currently.
>
> Chuck
I had to laugh at Rumsfield yesterday - when he was heckled by
protestors, he said something like "They couldn't do that in Iraq."
Meanwhile, from what I could tell, the protestors were being arrested.
Owen


Chuck Murcko wrote:
>[...stuff...]
Yawn.
R


R. A. Hettinga:
>Church, AA, same diff?
It's difficult to measure which is the greater
liability in a potential mate, religiosity or
alcoholism.
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Owne Byrne:
>Sure if you're willing to risk firing, lawsuits, etc. The last full time
>job I had the sexual harassement seminar was pretty clear - yes you can
>have relationships at the office, but its extremely difficult, and the
>pitfalls are
>horrendous.
Despite that, this is how a lot of couples meet.
People tease me about Carolyn, that I just hired
a lot of software engineering babes, and then
chose the one I liked best. ;-)
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In a message dated 9/19/2002 7:46:37 AM, chuck@topsail.org writes:
>That means *you* can't say anything may not be FoRKed or printed or
>whatever. You have the choice to ignore it
That's not what the First Amendment says at all. It says that Congress cannot
say what can't be FoRKed. FoRK can establish any rules it wants. Similarly,
The New York Times gets to choose what news IT thinks is "fit to print." If
the Times chose not to print anything about, say, Rosie O'Donnell, it would
be exercising its First Amendment rights, just as much as it would be if it
chose to print something Rosie O'Donnell doesn't like. The necessary
corollary of the freedom to say/publish what one wants is the freedom to
refuse to publish or say what one doesn't like. The alternative is a
state-controlled press that reprints government press releases and calls them
news.
The question of what is or is not FoRKed is (except for libel or other
specific exceptions) not a matter of law, but a matter of what the
"publisher" (if any) decides or the "community" (if any) negotiates or does
as a matter of custom.
For my part, I'd rather people didn't use FoRK as a place in which to dump an
expression of their political beliefs.
Tom


Robert Harley:
>>BTW, I wasn't aware that the 1st Amendment mandated that crap must be
>>FoRKed.
Chuck Murcko
:
>It doesn't, BTW. It says the right to free speech shall not be abridged.
>That means *you* can't say anything may not be FoRKed or printed or
>whatever.
Actually, it means just the opposite. The first
amendment guarantees Harley's right to say just
that. For the outlets where he has editorial
control, it even guarantees his right to CENSOR
content published through those outlets. The
first amendment doesn't limit Harley's speech,
and it is neutral with regard to the selection
policies of FoRK and other private venues.
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