>>>>> "R" == Robert Harley
writes:
R> GLM wrote:
>> And a Java program, due to the extensive class libraries, will
>> weigh in at 10% the number of lines of the equivalent C
>> program.  QED.
R> There are massive amounts of libraries for C, Fortran and so
R> on.  To pick an obvious example., if you want to do linear
R> algebra, then Java isn't a serious candidate at all.
If you want to do http, C gets pretty muddy (curl is about the best
choice I've found) but I grant you that: No language is the be-all and
end-all.
I envy some of those posting to this list.  I've been in business for
24 years and I haven't yet had the luxury of writing every line of
code for any project. We are always coerced by budgets and time to
maximize the amount of work done elsewhere.
As much as I hate dealing with someone else's blackbox, as much as
I've spent sleepless nights second-guessing external libs, I've never
ever had the luxury to do otherwise. It must be wonderful to be
responsible for something you are actually responsible for, and I am
so sick of being blamed for other people's design mistakes.
Maybe there's an archive somewhere I need to know about, but I've been
using C since DrDobbs first published SmallC and yet I've never found
any decent LGPL libs cataloged in such a way that I can just type in
the task and get back an API.  Because of Javadoc, which is by no
means perfect, Java provides me the second best catalog of 3rd-party
libs, second only to Perl's CPAN -- Perl is one language I also really
hate with a passion, yet end up using the most for exactly this reason.
For example, take the recent CBC Olympics site: I needed to roll
together a telnet client with a tokenizer, perl-regex preprocessing a
stream to produce parseable XML, project that XML into relational
databases using only the DTD to generate the rdbms schema, and open an
XMLRPC interface to read and post items into the news stream.  Where
can I find C libs for those components?
On the webserver, we then needed a multithreaded read-only http socket
which can spawn persistent data-caching servlets that periodically
refresh themselves over socket connections to the relational database,
presenting the retreived values through XSLT-defined transforms, and
again, where can I find such stuff for C ... or for any other langauge
but Java?  Wombat (servlet spec for Perl) was inviting, but it's not
ready for prime-time, and re-inventing that entire shopping list in C
is just not feasible for one programmer to do inside of 8 weeks.
When you need C libs, or even C++ libs, where's the best place to shop?
Where do you find standards-based portable RDBMS API? (ODBC?) How do
you evaluate these things without actually fetching every one and
trying it out?
In a perfect universe, I'd use Ocaml or even Ruby, but I don't see the
social infrastructure for either happening during my professional
lifetime.
R> Why do so many people outside of Sun's marketing department
R> consider Java to be "Write Once, Debug Everywhere" ?
A collegue at Cognos (Henk?) called C "the nearly-portable assembler"
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


First seen on Dave Winer's Scrpiting News (www.scripting.com) Details here:

- Jim


It's official, the holidays are here.  I got HTML mail from one of the
little catalogs I've been known to purchase from....basically the front
page of their first holiday catalog.
Must have been released simultaneously with mailing for a delivery target
of just after Labor Day.
Ick.
Eirikur


> For example, take the recent CBC Olympics site: I needed to roll
> together a telnet client with a tokenizer, perl-regex preprocessing a
> stream to produce parseable XML, project that XML into relational
> databases using only the DTD to generate the rdbms schema, and open an
> XMLRPC interface to read and post items into the news stream.  Where
> can I find C libs for those components?
You open sourced the new components you developed for this project, so the
next person who comes along won't have to reimplement them, right?
- Jim


We met a family in our parent-baby group with a son born a few minutes
before our daughter - not unlikely as all members were from the same
hospital. But, this family happened to have lived in the exact same
apartment unit a year before we had...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Whitehead"
To: "FoRK"
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:40 AM
Subject: Another low probability event
> So, a new family moved in down the street, with two kids, making us very
> excited that there might be a child around the same age (20 months) as our
> daughter Tatum. While we're talking to the family, we discover that their
> daughter Kiara was born the same day as Tatum, within two hours, in the
same
> exact maternity ward. Both mothers were undoubtedly in labor at the same
> time.
>
> Wow.
>
> - Jim
>


>>>>> "J" == Jim Whitehead
writes:
J> You open sourced the new components you developed for this
J> project, so the next person who comes along won't have to
J> reimplement them, right?
No need: All those components already exist either in the Java
class libraries or from the various java jar collections.  Most
of the classes I used came from the Jakarta project and ApacheXML
But if it's any consolation, my threading of them all together into
a newswire server /is/ GPL and available on sourceforge.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


Eirikur Hallgrimsson wrote:
> It's official, the holidays are here.
For which year, 2003 or 2004?
- Joe


On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
--]Why wait until you're dead? I'm sure there's enough carbon in
--]the fat from your typical liposuction job to make a decent diamond.
So thats why I keep seeing DeBeers agents hovering around me.
-tom(diamonds in the folds of my flesh)wsmf


Gary's news service at teledyn.com has an article on Internet Saturation.
Let me ask you....If you were on a rock in the middle of the Atlantic,
mostly in the dark for half the year, wouldn't *you* like a bit of
internet distraction?   They've already done the obvious and fiber-ringed
the island.
Eirikur
--------
Latest guestimate stats from Ireland's NUA show a flattening Internet
population growth. It seems there's two kinds of people, those who will go
online with the status quo, and those who won't: Canada levels out at 53%,
the USA at 59% (since 2000!), Denmark flatlines at 60%, Norway at 54%,
Sweden at 64%, and the UK at 55% ... only Iceland continues unfettered
beyond 60%. Could this be evidence of a usability barrier? If so, it's a
clear signal that there's as much fortune to be gained from a
substantially new Internet interface than all that has been gained so far.
Latest guestimate stats from Ireland's NUA show a flattening Internet
population growth. It seems there's two kinds of people, those who will go
online with the status quo, and those who won't: Canada levels out at 53%,
the USA at 59% (since 2000!), Denmark flatlines at 60%, Norway at 54%,
Sweden at 64%, and the UK at 55% ... only Iceland continues unfettered
beyond 60%. Could this be evidence of a usability barrier? If so, it's a
clear signal that there's as much fortune to be gained from a
substantially new Internet interface than all that has been gained so far.


Gary Lawrence Murphy said:
> I envy some of those posting to this list.  I've been in business for
> 24 years and I haven't yet had the luxury of writing every line of
> code for any project. We are always coerced by budgets and time to
> maximize the amount of work done elsewhere.
For consultancy, integration or open source work, sure, perl, python or
java with free use of external libs makes a lot of sense IMO.
I should note that normally when I've used C or C++ in the past, it's
dictated by the fact that I would be working on a commercial product,
written from the ground up, where the code you're generating is important
IP for the company; in this case, using a third-party lib often is not an
option, or would be a PITA licensing-wise.
Also, cutting out third-party dependencies can reduce the risk of "oops,
there goes the company that makes that library I depend on, now to shop
around for something vaguely similar, figure out what bugs it's got,
rewrite my code to use the new API, and hope for the best".
This can be a *very* big deal, for obvious reasons ;)    Open source
knockers should note that this is not a problem when using LGPL'd libs ;)
--j.


Eirikur Hallgrimsson said:
> Let me ask you....If you were on a rock in the middle of the Atlantic,
> mostly in the dark for half the year, wouldn't *you* like a bit of
> internet distraction?   They've already done the obvious and fiber-ringed
> the island.
BTW did they do the same as they did in Ireland, namely: spend millions
burying copious miles of dark fibre, then neglect to provide any way of
actually hooking it up to any ISPs? ;)
--j. (frustrated)


Geege wrote:
>This message was sent to you from
>
>Geege would like you to read the story below:
>
>
>
>Title:
>A first look at the 2.8-GHz Pentium 4
>
>Summary:
>Latest Rambus memory plus fast bus appear to give Intel's newest P4 the jolt it needs.
>
>Geege attached the following message:
>------------------------------------------------------------
>ha ha ha harley.  rambus earns it.
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Stay on top of the world of Information Technology with your own
>FREE subscription to our specialized newsletters. Subscribe now
>at
>
>
>7132
>
>
>
The overclockers have given it another jolt, perhaps to potential sales
(and maybe sales of liquid nitrogen):
via slashdot
Owen

*Päivämäärä:* 26.8.2002
*Artikkeli:* Intel Northwood 2,8GHz
*Tekijä:* Sampsa Kurri
*English Summary*
When the Intel Pentium 4 2,8GHz CPU arrived to our testlab we ordered 10
liters of Liquid Nitrogen (LN2 -196°C) and decided to run some tests in
very low temperatures.
After some adjusting and testing we were able to run SiSoft Sandra CPU
and Memory benchmarks and Pifast benchmark smoothly when the CPU was
running at 3917MHz. We raised the FSB one more step and managed to run
succesfully SuperPi benchmark while CPU was running at 3998MHz. The
result was 39 seconds.
Test setup: P4 2,8GHz, Modified Asus P4T533-C, Samsung PC800 RDRAM, PNY
GeForce 4 MX440 and Windows XP OS.
Check out the pictures.


On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Bill Stoddard wrote:
> >
> > "Red Hat Linux Advanced Server provides many high end features such as:
> > Support for Asynchronous I/O. Now read I/O no longer needs to stall your
> > application while waiting for completion."
>
> Can you provide a reference?  I could find it myself but I'm too lazy.
Well, i saw it on the Compaq Testdrive site, then had to seriously dig on
the redhat site... It's in one of their whitepapers...

> > Could it be? After 20 years without this feature UNIX finally
> > catches up to
> > Windows and has I/O that doesnt totally suck for nontrivial apps? No way!
>
> Do /dev/poll and FreeBSD's KQ event driven APIs count? IMHO, true async
> io as implemented by Windows 4.0 and beyond is pretty slick, but the
> programming model is substantially more complex than programming to an
> event API like /dev/poll. And true async does not buy much if the
> system call overhead is low (as it is with Linux).
I havent used the FBSD poll, as it's not portable, select and poll(still not
100%) are all that exist in the UNIX world. Redhat of course doesnt count as
portable either, but it's nice they are trying. The Windows I/O model does
definately blow the doors off the UNIX one, but then they had select to
point at in it's suckiness and anything would have been an improvement. UNIX
is just now looking at it's I/O model and adapting to a multiprocess
multithreaded world so it's gonna be years yet before a posix API comes out
of it. Bottom line is the "do stuff when something happens" model turned out
to be right, and the UNIX "look for something to do and keep looking till
you find it no matter how many times you have to look" is not really working
so great anymore.
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com


Well Beberg, unless you're really into Anime and actually hold true
that dead people can send email, I think Geege's subject is just dandy.
Especially since she removed herself from the hive that is aol (and
placed herself unto another, but hey :-))
Geege:  I think its cute when he worries like that, don't you?
:)
*ducks and runs*
(bonus FoRK points if Adam knows what anime i'm refering to)
BB


beberg, would you rather mrsrobinson@bellsouth.net?
into plastics too,
schuman
-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of
Joseph S. Barrera III
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 7:52 PM
To: FoRK
Subject: Re: revocation of grlygrl201@
bitbitch@magnesium.net wrote:
> Well Beberg, unless you're really into Anime and actually hold true
> that dead people can send email, I think Geege's subject is just
> dandy.
Funny you should mention that, as I just came back from refilling
the green coolant in my Navi.
> (bonus FoRK points if Adam knows what anime i'm refering to)
I guess I don't get any points, do I? No, didn't think so.
- Joe
P.S. We've just started watching Boogiepop Phantom...
--
The Combatant State is your father and your mother, your only
protector, the totality of your interests. No discipline can
be stern enough for the man who denies that by word or deed.


Reza B'Far (eBuilt) wrote:
> problems.... Why do most computer scientists insist on solving the
> same problems over and over again when there are some many more
> important and interesting problems (high level) to be solved ?????
Amen!
Doing it in an (unecessarily) harder way does NOT make you more of a man
(or less of a kiddie).
- Joe
--
The Combatant State is your father and your mother, your only
protector, the totality of your interests. No discipline can
be stern enough for the man who denies that by word or deed.


"Once we thought of the Internet as this thing with infinite capabilities.
It was basically just a fad that came along."
Missing from the article is the percentage of foreign enrolement, I would
bet the numbers of students from Asia (China specificly) has gone up quite a
bit, and is the only thing keeping the overall numbers from plummiting.
"you can't get the chicks with that anymore."
About time us geeks were outcasts again. I was getting sick of hearing about
geeks breeding and ending up with autistic children - proving that
intelligence is a genetic defect and a "do not breed" flag.)
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com
-----------------
Tech's Major Decline
College Students Turning Away From Bits and Bytes
By Ellen McCarthy
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 27, 2002; Page E01
If John Yandziak had been entering college a few years ago, he might have
sought a stake in the "new" economy. He might have dreamed of becoming an
ace code-cracker for the CIA or the National Security Agency, or imagined
toppling an empire with revolutionary software. Maybe he would have tried to
use the Internet to end world hunger.
But as Yandziak attends his first college classes this week, he's harboring
different academic ambitions. The Ashburn native says he wants to do
something more social and more interesting than working with computers.
Besides, he said while packing for a Charlottesville dormitory room, "you
can't get the chicks with that anymore."
The tech industry's financial problems are enough to bankrupt the dreams of
some fair-weather students. But now there's another consequence of the tech
bust: Enrollment growth in undergraduate computer science departments has
come to a halt.
The number of undergraduates majoring in computer science fell 1 percent in
2001, according to a report by the Computing Research Association. And
educators in the field say the trend seems to be accelerating, with some
colleges seeing much greater drops as the new academic year begins.
The word is out among department deans that the bust's fallout has trickled
into the classroom, said Maria Clavez, president of the Association of
Computing Machinery.
"I've heard everything from no change to modest decline to more dramatic
declines," said Clavez, who will become the dean of science and engineering
at Princeton University in January. "It can be hard to see this, because at
some colleges the number of people who want to study computer science so far
exceeds the available space. [But] it is going to have an effect."
At Virginia Tech, enrollment of undergraduates in the computer science
department will drop 25 percent this year, to 300. At George Washington
University, the number of incoming freshmen who plan to study computer
science fell by more than half this year.
Interest in undergraduate computer science programs had grown rapidly in the
past decade. In 1997, schools with PhD programs in computer science and
computer engineering granted 8,063 degrees, according to the Computing
Research Association. The numbers rose through 2001, when 17,048 degrees
were awarded.
The Labor Department projects that software engineering will be the
fastest-growing occupation between 2000 and 2010, with other
computer-related industries trailing close behind.
But in the short term that growth may slow, based on the changes among
college students. For example, 900 of the 2,000-plus undergraduates studying
information technology and engineering at George Mason University were
computer science majors last year. This year the enrollment in that major is
down to 800, although a newly created and more general information
technology major has attracted 200 students.
"Having it ease off for a while is a bit of a relief," said Lloyd Griffith,
dean of George Mason's information technology and engineering school.
"Particularly with the field as it has been, they don't want to spend four
years on something and then not get a job."
Freshman enrollment for the University of Maryland's computer science major
is expected to be about 167 this fall, down from 329 last year. Maryland
decreased its total freshman enrollment by 11 percent, but that alone does
not account for the drop, said Steve Halperin, dean of Maryland's College of
Computer, Mathematical and Physical Sciences.
"We are seeing a decrease in the number of freshmen who are declaring their
interest in pursuing computer science as a major," Halperin said. "That's a
factual statement. But I would say that at this point . . . we don't expect
to see a decrease in the number of graduates. Many of the kids who are no
longer expressing an interest in majoring in CS would have fallen off."
Yandziak, who began at the University of Virginia on Saturday, is not
convinced that's the case. He graduated in the top 5 percent of his class,
with a 3.9 grade-point average, and nailed the highest possible score on his
advanced-placement exam in computer science.
"All of my classes have been easy for me. Math and sciences were always fun,
so I looked for professions in which I could use those things," Yandziak
said. "I'm just not sure I want my life to be immersed in [technology]. I
want to do something that will contribute to the practical world."
Harris N. Miller, president of the Information Technology Association of
America, said the last time there was a dearth of computing professionals,
salaries skyrocketed and workers benefited from the labor shortage.
"There was a tremendous imbalance in the late '90s; potentially you have the
same sort of thing going on right now. People are saying, 'I don't need this
kind of IT training right now,' " Miller said. "Our concern as an industry
is that if they begin to again see major declines in enrollment, down the
road four years, as the economy picks up, once again companies are going to
find themselves in a shortage situation."
Economic potential weighs heavily in many student career choices, but other
factors, including program difficulty, personal interests and social
influences, also come into play, said Judy Hingle, director of professional
development at the American College Counseling Association. The perception
of computer science as an isolating, "nerdy" profession is one that many in
the industry have tried to squelch. That stereotype went underground during
the tech bubble but reemerged during the bust.
"All the hipness is gone," Yandziak said. "Once we thought of the Internet
as this thing with infinite capabilities. It was basically just a fad that
came along."
Lamont Thompson, a recent graduate of Calvin Coolidge Senior High School in
the District, is headed to Morehouse College in Atlanta to study business
marketing, with the intention of going into real estate development.
"Technology comes natural to people my age; it's not fascinating anymore,"
Thompson said. "To be honest with you, when I think computer science, I
think of some guy sitting behind a computer all day in a dark room. It's a
necessity, but I wouldn't take it any further."


On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
> Reza B'Far (eBuilt) wrote:
>  > problems.... Why do most computer scientists insist on solving the
>  > same problems over and over again when there are some many more
>  > important and interesting problems (high level) to be solved ?????
>
> Amen!
Like what exactly? All the problems are in chemisty and physics and biology
and mathematics. We're just enablers :)
> Doing it in an (unecessarily) harder way does NOT make you more of a man
> (or less of a kiddie).
Yes, but doing it an order of magnitude or 2 easier does :) Which with the
way things are now, is not hard at all to do.
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com


Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
> Chris Haun wrote:
>
>> A LifeGem is a certified, high quality diamond created from the
>> carbon of your loved one as a memorial to their unique and wonderful
>> life.
>
>
> Why wait until you're dead? I'm sure there's enough carbon in
> the fat from your typical liposuction job to make a decent diamond.
>
> - Joe
>
Oh, hell - what about excrement? I'd love to be able to say - No, the
sun doesn't shine out of my ass, but there's the occasional diamond. ;-).
Owen


On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Mr. FoRK wrote:
> > 6.  Hardware is getting so fast that I'm not sure if the performance
> > difference between Java and C/C++ are relevant any more.
>
> When out-of-the-box parsing & transform of XML in java is 25x slower than
> C++ on the same hardware then it does matter.
Yea, and that on top of the 100x of all the parsing engines over just
bigendian'ing it and passing the data (5x+++) in the raw. Then it REALLY
matters.
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com


On Sunday 01 September 2002 08:43 pm, Reza B'Far (eBuilt) wrote:
> 3.  Java is not just a programming language!
The astounding thing about java is that despite all of the many significant
points in its favor, it still manages to suck, and break across JVMs.
I was really looking forward to being able to use a better language like
java and get it compiled to real platform-specific binaries via the GNU
compiler collection.   But this seems to have never really gotten anywhere
because it would require porting or reimplementing libraries, which are
probably not source-available or tolerably licenced.   When I looked at
what I had to do to gcc and link "hello world," I lost interest.
Who the hell is writing the runtimes, anyway?   Why are Perl/Python/Ruby
more reliable?   In a world where the Macs all ran emulated 68K code
utterly reliably, it's just hard to accept that there can't be a single
portable JVM that just works.
My opinion is biased because of the disgraceful state of non-Windoze
browser java implementations.
Eirikur


use this address instead, please.
prerogatively,
geege


On Mon, Sep 02, 2002 at 03:19:13AM -0400, Eirikur Hallgrimsson wrote:
> My opinion is biased because of the disgraceful state of non-Windoze
> browser java implementations.
Horrors. Applets are kinda sucky. The cool kids are using Java to write
server applications, not browser craplets.
The giggle-inducing irony of the whole Java thing is how Sun's strategy
backfired. They produced a platform that was supposed to dwell on the
client side, where it would commoditize those clients. Instead, it turns
out to be the perfect language to write server applications in, and it has
successfully commoditized servers. Ooops!
--
njl


With the increasing prevalence of web services (not that they are always a
good thing), I doubt that parsing XML will be something that will remain at
the Java application layer for long... Recent threads here on Fork
indicating the move towards hardware parsing or this code even become part
of the native implementation of Java on various platforms...
Reza B'Far
-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of Adam
L. Beberg
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:01 PM
To: Mr. FoRK
Cc: fork@example.com
Subject: Re: Java is for kiddies
On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Mr. FoRK wrote:
> > 6.  Hardware is getting so fast that I'm not sure if the performance
> > difference between Java and C/C++ are relevant any more.
>
> When out-of-the-box parsing & transform of XML in java is 25x slower than
> C++ on the same hardware then it does matter.
Yea, and that on top of the 100x of all the parsing engines over just
bigendian'ing it and passing the data (5x+++) in the raw. Then it REALLY
matters.
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com


Of course they had to do this AFTER we purcahsed these all on vhs, and yes
it is now run by the great evil empire known as disney...but we got the
new School House Rocks DVD anyway and man is it an amazing item.
First off , my 8 year old has been singing them since she was 6. Second
off, these are much easier to rip to divx and mp3. Third, new songs,
remastered originals and other dvd goodies. Its a 2 dvd set so its well
worth the 17$ we paid for it.
Even if you dont have kids, run do not walk to pick this one up.
Man, I would sure love to have a *nix Rocks for the kids.


>
> Microsoft has announced that they plan to remove Java from Windows.
> They took it out of XP already and it has to be installed with a
> service pack.  Somehow, I can't imagine them removing the ability to
> run C programs.
They removed /their/ Java VM. They didn't remove the ability to run Java
programs.
Anybody is free to develop their own Java VM and make it kick ass. As
someone said earlier in the thread, nobody is capable or willing to do that.
I've done a bunch of Java and haven't run into huge problems running the
same bytecode across Solaris or Win2K.
What actual problems have people actually run into. Actually.


-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of
Robert Harley
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 2:55 AM
To: fork@example.com
Subject: RE: Java is for kiddies
Reza B'Far wrote:
>This thread kind of surprises me... I started coding with C, then C++, and
>moved on to Java... And, I think that:
Robert Harley wrote:
>Looks like a case of "MY experience is comprehensive, YOUR'S is
>anecdotal, THEY don't know what they're talking about".
Well, I sure don't claim that... I think most people on Fork probably have
more programming knowledge than I do... There's lots of experience out
here...
Reza B'Far wrote:
>1.  The people who pay the wages don't give a flyin' heck what programming
>language you write things in... they just want it to work.
Robert Harley wrote:
>In my experience, they do care.  It has to work certainly, and in
>particular it has to work with what they've already got, and it has to
>work on client's systems.
>My limited experience of Java started a few years ago when support on
>Linux was so terrible that I ran away screaming and haven't come back yet.
Well, I think until recently, support for most things on Linux was kind of
shady... Things have got much better... You're right in that the JDK used to
suck on Linux... But then, IMHO, Linux is still maturing.... or at least
development tools for Linux are maturing... I've been developing a few
server side apps that run on Linux recently with JDK 1.3.x and they've had
no problems with great performance.
Robert Harley worte:
>Microsoft has announced that they plan to remove Java from Windows.
>They took it out of XP already and it has to be installed with a
>service pack.  Somehow, I can't imagine them removing the ability to
>run C programs.
Hmmm... Do you really think that MS is pulling out Java because it's a "Bad"
programming language or application platform?  You don't think this has
anything to do with .NET being a competitor to Java do you?  Or that MS has
basically copied Java (with some additional features) and called it C#?
Isn't that alone an indication that they actually DO think that a VM is the
right way to go for most high level applications?
Reza B'Far wrote:
>2.  C and C++ forces the developer to solve problems such as memory
>management over and over again.
Robert Harley wrote:
>Can't say I spend any noticeable amount of time on memory management
>issues, apart from the fact that I frequently need > 4 GB.
Hmmm again.... You're telling me that you've never had a nasty bug that took
you a couple of days to track down that had to do with a memory leak?  I am
not the best C/C++ programmer... not even close... But I've known really
good ones... and even they have nasty bugs that have to do with memory
management, however occasional they may be.
>It's about design patterns, architecture, high level stuff...
Robert Harley wrote:
>If your problem just requires application of a "design pattern" to solve,
>then it's trivial anyway irrespective of language.
Wow!  So you're telling me that unless the application involves
bit-counting, it's trivial?  What about the application itself?  What about
high level problems such as task distribution, work-flow, etc.?  Aren't most
high level problems solved with high level solutions like design patterns?
Or do you solve high level problems by writing optimal C/C++ code?  For
example, do you think that most people working on collaboration frameworks
(there are lots of them on this list), are working on writing an operating
system with assembly that provides for a collaborative environment?
>I am amazed by the amount of time wasted by people talking about low
>level problems that have been solved 10 million times over and over
>and over again...
Robert Harley wrote:
>You appear to be gratuitously asserting that C programmers waste time
>on irrelevant low-level problems and Java programmers don't.  Depends
>entirely on the programmer, not the language.
I can see how you could infer this. However, what I believe to really be the
case is that Java is one of the best languages for writing large
applications with many components that involves the collaboration of more
than three programmers.  In those cases, it's always very hard to get the
programmers to agree on API's, memory management techniques, etc.  With
Java, the JCP takes care of the discussions so that you don't sit around in
a long meeting trying to decide what API to use to hook up to a database
(JDBC) or a messaging bus (JMS).
>3.  Java is not just a programming language! It's also a platform...
Robert Harley wrote:
>Buzzword.
YIKES!  Have you written db code with C/C++ for different databases (just an
example)?  Tried porting a persistence layer from Windows to Unix?  Say you
have Informix running on Solaris and you want to port to Windows with MS SQL
(bad idea...but for the sake of the example), would you rather deal with
JDBC port or C/C++ port that uses Informix drivers and now you have to use
ODBC?
>a monolithic set of API's or a crap load of different API's slicing
>and dicing the same problems 50 different ways?
Robert Harley wrote:
>Unsupported assertion.
So, are you saying that there is a standard set of API's for C/C++ for
everything? (aside to the minimal ANSI stuff).  Is there a standard way of
dealing with C/C++ applications for various domain problems (messaging,
database persistence, etc.) that rivals Java?  I'd like to know if there is
one accepted by everyone who writes C/C++... In that case, I claim
ignorance...
Not suggesting that Java is the golden hammer.... Just that C/C++ is
overkill for most things... I even coded in VB... But VB is a true disgrace
to programming... It's just lame... Java is Object Oriented... (no
flame-mail from the anti-OO people please... that is a religious
discussion...) and relatively clean... And I don't think that every "Kid"
can write a well designed Java program.  Kids typically don't understand
various design patterns and principles... To my experience, they actually
tend to think more of the low level problems, wanting to rewrite and
reinvent the world... a tendency that is much more possible, IMHO, in C/C++
than in Java due to existence of standard API's.


On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Reza B'Far (eBuilt) wrote:
> Hmmm again.... You're telling me that you've never had a nasty bug that took
> you a couple of days to track down that had to do with a memory leak?  I am
> not the best C/C++ programmer... not even close... But I've known really
> good ones... and even they have nasty bugs that have to do with memory
> management, however occasional they may be.
OK, noone has been tool-less for memory management for a LONG time. Most
systems you just add a flag and memory is tracked (that's how i've always
done it) or worst case yuo have to run it through one of the 2.3E7 tools
where you simply recompile and it it tells you where the leaks are.
Memory management is a non-issue for anyone that has any idea at all how the
hardware functions. Granted, this takes 30 minutes to go over, and so is far
beyond the scope of the "Learn Java in 90 minutes without thinking" book
every Java programmer learned from.
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com


On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Reza B'Far (eBuilt) wrote:
> With the increasing prevalence of web services (not that they are always a
> good thing), I doubt that parsing XML will be something that will remain at
> the Java application layer for long... Recent threads here on Fork
> indicating the move towards hardware parsing or this code even become part
> of the native implementation of Java on various platforms...
OK, so, you get the XML toss it through hardware and turn it back into a
struct/object whatever you call your binary data. I agree this is the way
things will go, as XML parsing has just too much overhead to survive in the
application layer. So why turn it into XML in the first place? Becasue it
gives geeks something to do and sells XML hardware accelerators and way more
CPUs?
Is there anyone out there actually doing anything new that actually IMPROVES
things anymore, or are they all too scared of the fact that improvements put
people out of work and cut #1 is the creators...
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com


Update on this for anyone that's interested, and because I like closed
threads... nothing worse than an infinite while loop, is there?
I ended up formatting a floppy on my flatmate's (un-networked) P100 running
FAT16 Win95, and mcopied the contents of the bootdisk across. Now I have a
FAT16 Win98 install running alongside Slackware, and can play Metal Gear
Solid when the mood takes me ;)
/Ciaran.
On Wednesday 21 August 2002 16:21, Ciaran Johnston wrote:
> Dublin said:
> > If you copy the files from your disk to the c: partition and mark it as
> > active it should work ...
>
> Yeah, I figured that, but it doesn't seem to ... well, if that's the case
> I'll give it another go tonight, maybe come back with some error messages.
>
> Just to clarify for those who didn't understand me initially - I have a
> floppy drive installed, but it doesn't physically work. There's nowhere
> handy to pick one up where I am, and I don't fancy waiting a few days for
> one to arrive from Peats.
>
> Thanks for the answers,
> Ciaran.
>
> > You especially need io.sys, command.com and msdos.sys
> >
> > your cd driver .sys and read the autoexec.bat and config.sys files for
> > hints on what you did with your boot floppy
> >
> > P
> >
> > On Wed, 2002-08-21 at 14:07, Ciaran Johnston wrote:
> >> Hi folks,
> >> The situation is this: at home, I have a PC with 2 10Gig HDDs, and no
> >> (working) floppy drive. I have been running Linux solely for the last
> >> year, but recently got the urge to, among other things, play some of
> >> my Windoze games. I normally install the windows partition using a
> >> boot floppy which I have conveniently zipped up, but I haven't any way
> >> of writing or reading a floppy.
> >> So, how do I go about:
> >> 1. formatting a C: drive with system files (normally I would use
> >> format /s c: from the floppy).
> >> 2. Installing the CDROM drivers (my bootdisk (I wrote it many years
> >> ago) does this normally).
> >> 3. Booting from the partition?
> >>
> >> I wiped all my linux partitions from the first drive and created
> >> partitions for Windows (HDA1) Slackware and RedHat. I used cfdisk for
> >> this. I made the first drive (hda) bootable. I then installed the
> >> windows partition in LILO and reran lilo (installed in MBR). I copied
> >> the contents of boot.zip to my new windows partition and tried to boot
> >> it - all I get is a garbled line of squiggles.
> >>
> >> Anyone any ideas? I can't think of anywhere in Athlone to get a new
> >> floppy drive this evening...
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Ciaran.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Irish Linux Users' Group: ilug@linux.ie
> >>  for (un)subscription
> >> information. List maintainer: listmaster@linux.ie
--
Irish Linux Users' Group: ilug@linux.ie
 for (un)subscription information.
List maintainer: listmaster@linux.ie


Sunday I drove from Portland down to the Woodburn Dragstrip to check out
the NEDRA Nationals.
The electric cars, motorcycles and dragsters had some great times and I
ended up with a few pics and a nice deep burn...
John Waylan (who was interviewed in Wired a few years back) pulled out a
14.4 second run in the quarter mile (91mph), on a battery pack that
hasn't been broken in yet. He expects to break his record next year
topping his 13.1sec/99mph run a couple of years ago. He's shooting for a
12 second run.
John also took out a replica 1908 Oldsmobile for a respectable 47mph
run. (Remember, we started out with electric cars.)
Near the end of the day, Kilacycle took the track with an amazing 111mph
run. Talk about a crotch rocket.
...Ross...
On Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 01:45  AM, Adam L. Beberg wrote:
> Personally I don't think Americans will ever go electric, there is too
> much
> testosterone linked to the auto as the male's primary form of
> compesating
> for other things. See.. now that's a job for you femanists, teach women
> not
> to fall for a fast environmentally destuctive vehicle, you should only
> have
> to rewrite 98% of the genome ;)


> From:  Anders Eriksson
> Date:  Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:05:30 +0200
>
>
> > > Just cvs up'ed and nowadays Catch-up Unseen is __extremely__ slow on
> > > large (>100 msgs) unseen sequences. Anybody else having this problem?
> >
> > I'll take the blame.
> >
> > The reason, I suspect, is that we're needlessly reading the .sequences file
> > multiple times because of other sequences.  I need to make the code much
> > smarter about handling that file, but first I have a few other fish to fry in
> > my rather large patch that's on it's way.
> >
>
> No panic,
>
> I'm all for cleaning things up before getting it optimized.
Okay, this fix is now checked in.
Chris
--
Chris Garrigues                 ~cwg/
virCIO
716 Congress, Suite 200
Austin, TX  78701		+1 512 374 0500
World War III:  The Wrong-Doers Vs. the Evil-Doers.


> From:  Robert Elz
> Date:  Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:32:00 +0700
>
>     Date:        Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:54:46 -0500
>     From:        Chris Garrigues
>     Message-ID:
>
>   | I can't reproduce this error.
>
> Ah, I think I just found the cause, nmh is broken (which is probably
> obvious from my previous mail).
>
> The man page for pick (and how it always used to work) was that -list
> would list messages matched.  -nolist would supress that.   If -sequence
> is given the default is -nolist, without -sequence the default is -list.
>
> That's all fine - but it appears now (which probably means I had never
> used pick since I upgraded nmh last) that what counts is the order of
> -list and -sequence - that is, if -sequence comes after -list, the -list
> gets turned off (-sequence implies -nolist instead of just making -nolist
> the default).
>
> An easy workaround for this is to make sure that -list is the last arg
> given to pick, so if I run ...
>
> delta$ pick +inbox -lbrace -lbrace -subject ftp -rbrace -rbrace  4852-4852
> -sequence mercury -list
> 4852
>
> which is just as it should be.
hmmm, I assume you're going to report this to the nmh folks?
Chris
--
Chris Garrigues                 ~cwg/
virCIO
716 Congress, Suite 200
Austin, TX  78701		+1 512 374 0500
World War III:  The Wrong-Doers Vs. the Evil-Doers.


> From:  Chris Garrigues
> Date:  Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:12:16 -0500
>
> > From:  "J. W. Ballantine"
> > Date:  Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:51:31 -0400
> >
> > I CVS'ed the unseen/Sequences changes and installed them, and have only one
> > real issue.
> >
> > I use the unseen window rather than the exmh icon, and with the new code
> > I can't seem to be able to.  How many unseen when when I have the main window open
> > is not really necessary.
>
> hmmm, I stole the code from unseenwin, but I never tested it since I don't use
> that functionality.  Consider it on my list of things to check.
Well, unfortunately, I appear to be using a window manager that doesn't
support the icon window.
However, I did fix some bugs in the related "Hide When Empty" functionality
which may solve the issue.  You may need to remove "unseen" from the "always
show sequences" to make this work.  If so, let me know so I can put that in
the help window for "Icon Window" as it already is for "Hide When Empty".
Chris
--
Chris Garrigues                 ~cwg/
virCIO
716 Congress, Suite 200
Austin, TX  78701		+1 512 374 0500
World War III:  The Wrong-Doers Vs. the Evil-Doers.


> From:  Chris Garrigues
> Date:  Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:23:38 -0500
>
> Okay....Catchup unseen is something that I don't use often, but i can
> certainly reproduce this.  I'll dig into it.  It's probably simple.
Try it now.
Chris
--
Chris Garrigues                 ~cwg/
virCIO
716 Congress, Suite 200
Austin, TX  78701		+1 512 374 0500
World War III:  The Wrong-Doers Vs. the Evil-Doers.


Thanks Tony, but I think doing it using component files will get a .signature
by default, but I have many diferent signatures and I want to insert one of
that signatures using a keyboard command. So for a message I will insert a
signature, but for another message I will insert a different signature.
Is it possible? I am using sedit for my messages.
Thanks.
Ulises
> > Hi!
> >
> > Is there a command to insert the signature using a combination of keys and not
> > to have sent the mail to insert it then?
>
> I simply put it (them) into my (nmh) component files (components,
> replcomps, forwcomps and so on).  That way you get them when you are
> editing your message.  Also, by using comps files for specific
> folders you can alter your .sig per folder (and other tricks).  See
> the docs for (n)mh for all the details.
>
> There might (must?) also be a way to get sedit to do it, but I've
> been using gvim as my exmh message editor for a long time now.  I
> load it with a command that loads some email-specific settings, eg,
> to "syntax" colour-highlight the headers and quoted parts of an
> email)... it would be possible to map some (vim) keys that would add
> a sig (or even give a selection of sigs to choose from).
>
> And there are all sorts of ways to have randomly-chosen sigs...
> somewhere at rtfm.mit.edu... ok, here we go:
> rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/news.answers/signature_finger_faq.
> (Warning... it's old, May 1995).
>
> > Regards,
> > Ulises
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Cheers
> Tony
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Exmh-users mailing list
> Exmh-users@redhat.com
>
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What's the trick again to have it default to showing text/plain instead of
html?
--Harlan
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Exmh-users@redhat.com


>>>>> On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, "Harlan" == Harlan Feinstein wrote:
Harlan> What's the trick again to have it default to showing
Harlan> text/plain instead of html?
In ~/.exmh/exmh-defaults add:
*mime_alternative_prefs: text/plain text/enriched text/richtext text/html
Order possible alternatives from _your_ most preferred to least
preferred.
--Hal
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Exmh-users@redhat.com


Date:        Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:04:06 -0500
From:        Chris Garrigues
Message-ID:
| hmmm, I assume you're going to report this to the nmh folks?
Yes, I will, sometime, after I look at the nmh sources and see what
they have managed to break, and why.
But we really want exmh to operate with all the versions of nmh that
exist, don't we?   The patch to have exmh do the right thing, whether this
bug exists, or not, is trivial, so I'd suggest including it.
Patch follows ...
I have no idea why the sequences were being added after the message list
before, not that it should make any difference to nmh (or MH).   But since
I stopped doing that, the variable "msgs" isn't really needed any more,
rather than assigning $pick(msgs) to msgs, and then using $msgs the code
could just use $pick(msgs) where $msgs is now used.   This is just a
frill though, so I didn't change that.
kre
--- pick.tcl	Fri Aug 23 16:28:14 2002
+++ /usr/local/lib/exmh-2.5/pick.tcl	Sat Aug 24 18:14:44 2002
@@ -128,7 +128,7 @@
}
proc Pick_It {} {
global pick exmh
-    set cmd [list exec pick +$exmh(folder) -list]
+    set cmd [list exec pick +$exmh(folder)]
set inpane 0
set hadpane 0
for {set pane 1} {$pane <= $pick(panes)} {incr pane} {
@@ -175,8 +175,9 @@
}
set msgs $pick(msgs)
foreach s $pick(sequence) {
-	lappend msgs -sequence $s
+	lappend cmd -sequence $s
}
+    lappend cmd -list
Exmh_Debug Pick_It $cmd $msgs
busy PickInner $cmd $msgs
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Exmh-workers@redhat.com


Date:        Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:58:20 -0500
From:        Chris Garrigues
Message-ID:
| Interesting...I don't think this was my bug.
| It appears that Msg_Change was asked to change to message "-".
Something like that is quite possible, but perviously typing nonsense
in didn't cause tracebacks, and now it does, and the traceback came
from the sequence code...
Perviously this would have just caused red messages in the status
line complaining about my lousy typing.   That's probably what it
should keep on doing (the "red" part isn't important obviously..)
kre
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> From: fork-admin@xent.com  On Behalf Of
Dave
> Long
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:12 AM
> To: fork@example.com
> Subject: RE: The Curse of India's Socialism
>
>
>
> When I'd read that "getting legal title
> can take 20 years", when I believe that
> 1 year ought to be more than sufficient,
> (and helped by the Cairo reference) I'd
> assumed that we were talking about the
> urban poor.
>
> If I see people living in mansions, or
> even in suburban subdivisions, I assume
> they didn't have too much trouble with
> their titles.
Pg 177:
In another country, a local newspaper, intrigued by our evidence of
extralegal real estate holdings, checked to see if the head of state's
official residence had a recorded title.  It did not.
Pg 92:
The value of land in the formal sector of Lima averages US$50 per square
meter, whereas in the area of Gamarra, where a great deal of Peru's
informal manufacturing sector resides, the value per square meter can go
as high as US$3,000.
==========
I'd have made the same assumption you did.  De Soto says that isn't
correct.  You can find mansions that don't have title.  A lot of them,
in fact.  But they can't be used for collateral for a loan, or otherwise
participate as 'capital' because of their extra-legal status.
> > Mr. Long, I think you'd particularly enjoy the De Soto work.
>
> On the "to find" list.  Any chance of
> an explanation of that "Bell Jar" in
> the meantime?
French historian Fernand Braudel (so Braudel's Bell Jar, not De Soto's)
==>
The key problem is to find out why that sector of society of the past,
which I would not hesitate to call capitalist, should have lived as if
in a bell jar, cut off from the rest; why was it not able to expand and
conquer the whole of society? ... [Why was it that] a significant rate
of capital formation was possible only in certain sectors and not in the
whole market economy of the time? ... It would perhaps be teasingly
paradoxial to say that whatever was in short supply, money certainly was
not ... so this was an age where poor land was bought up and magnificent
country residents built ... [How do we] resolve the contradiction ...
between the depressed economic climate and the splendors of Florence
under Lorenzo the Magnificent?
--------------
De Soto's theory is that the Bell Jar is formed when you segregate those
who have *practical* access to legal property rights and those who do
not.  The poor[1] have property -- lots and lots of property.  What they
don't have is access to the systems where we turn property into capital
and allow it to start growing.  Their property can only be exchanged
with a small section of people who know them personally.
[1] Actual poor people, not 'poor' Americans with a living standard that
is the envy of most of the world.


Today an apt-get upgrade holds back php (and submodules, like php-imap).
Running an apt-get install php to see what's up, I get:
# apt-get install php
Processing File Dependencies... Done
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
curl-devel imap imap-devel mysql mysql-devel php-imap php-ldap postgresql
postgresql-devel postgresql-libs pspell-devel ucd-snmp-devel
ucd-snmp-utils
unixODBC unixODBC-devel
The following NEW packages will be installed:
curl-devel imap imap-devel mysql mysql-devel postgresql postgresql-devel
postgresql-libs pspell-devel ucd-snmp-devel ucd-snmp-utils unixODBC
unixODBC-devel
The following packages will be upgraded
php php-imap php-ldap
3 packages upgraded, 13 newly installed, 0 to remove(replace) and 1 not
upgraded.
Anyone have an idea what the heck RedHat did here, and why we're now
trying to install a ton of crap I don't want?  (I'm hoping someone else
has chased this down and could save me time... ;) )
thx,
-te
--
Troy Engel, Systems Engineer
Cool as the other side of the pillow
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On Thu, 2002-08-22 at 19:10, Troy Engel wrote:
> Today an apt-get upgrade holds back php (and submodules, like php-imap).
>   Running an apt-get install php to see what's up, I get:
>
> # apt-get install php
> Processing File Dependencies... Done
> Reading Package Lists... Done
> Building Dependency Tree... Done
> The following extra packages will be installed:
>    curl-devel imap imap-devel mysql mysql-devel php-imap php-ldap postgresql
>    postgresql-devel postgresql-libs pspell-devel ucd-snmp-devel
> ucd-snmp-utils
>    unixODBC unixODBC-devel
> The following NEW packages will be installed:
>    curl-devel imap imap-devel mysql mysql-devel postgresql postgresql-devel
>    postgresql-libs pspell-devel ucd-snmp-devel ucd-snmp-utils unixODBC
>    unixODBC-devel
> The following packages will be upgraded
>    php php-imap php-ldap
> 3 packages upgraded, 13 newly installed, 0 to remove(replace) and 1 not
> upgraded.
>
> Anyone have an idea what the heck RedHat did here, and why we're now
> trying to install a ton of crap I don't want?  (I'm hoping someone else
> has chased this down and could save me time... ;) )
>
rh bugzilla 72007
thats the answer
-sv
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On Thu, 2002-08-22 at 19:10, Troy Engel wrote:
> Anyone have an idea what the heck RedHat did here, and why we're now
> trying to install a ton of crap I don't want?  (I'm hoping someone else
> has chased this down and could save me time... ;) )
I'm told that even our best people occasionally screw up. And QA had
tested the rpm on an "Everything" install. Expect a fixed version soon,
and QA procedures have been adjusted to catch this kind of braindamage
in the future. There is nothing really wrong with the binary inside the
rpm, so if you want to --nodeps for now it's ok.
--
Chris Kloiber
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Hi everybody !
My name is Gilles, I'm 19 and I'm french. My english is very bad and I'm sorry
if you do not understand correctly my emails.
I use Linux since 3 months. Before I worked with Windows 2000 Pro. I enjoy Red
Hat... I tried Mandrake, SuSE, Debian, Slackware and my favorite of all of
them is Red Hat.
Actually I use Red Hat 7.3.
I visited the web site Freshrpms, I congratulated Thias for his work.
And I subscribed to this list for to know more about Red Hat and RPMs' news.
Pleased to read U soon.
Gilles (Nice, South of France)
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Thanks for this information.  I gave Alsa a try, couldn't figure out how
to enable digital out, although I'm sure if I put enough time into it,
could have gotten it working.  Also when playing mp3s in analog mode,
every time I switched between mp3s there was a bit of static.  Noticed a
new distribution geared towards audio applications, AGNULA
( uses Alsa as well.  Seems though the latest
open source emu10k1 drivers (SBLive! 5.1) work fair enough.  Anyone else
experience these problems with Alsa?  Are there alot of people on this
list using Alsa?
Regards,
Lance
On Sat, 2002-08-24 at 17:45, Angles Puglisi wrote:
> FYI, This is how I make my ALSA rpms ... some people on the (null) list did not
> realize it was pretty easy.
>
> btw, I do this lot since I've upgraded from RH7.3 to Limbo1 to Limbo2 to Null all in
> a week (probably).
>
> forward - original mail:
>   From "Angles Puglisi"
>   Date 08/24/2002 - 06:38:03 pm
>   Subject Re: When are we going to get....
> ----
>
> From:  Angles  Puglisi
> To: limbo-list@example.com
> Subject: Re: When are we going to get....
> Date: 24 Aug 2002 22:40:40 +0000
>
> OK, I do this every time I update a kernel.
>
> The 1st time I added ALSA, I tried a non-root rpom build but the DEV things were not
> made. Other than that, I bet you could do non-root. The following can be scripted
> easily.
>
> 1. get (a) alsa-drivers, (b) alas-lib, and (c) alsa-utils tarballs (if upgrading the
> kernel then you probably have them from your last install).
> 2. unpack them somewhere.
> 3. for each of them, go to the top directory of the unpacked tarball, and do
> ../configure, then look in (I'm going by memory) TOPDIR/utils/* you should see a spec
> file there. Do this for the 3 tarballs and you get 3 spec files.
>
> 4. put the source tarballs in SOURCES and the spec files in SPECS, go in order from
> a, b, then c, doing
>  "rpmbuild -ba SPECS/alsa-[X].spec; rpm -Uvh RPMS/i386/alsa-[X].rpm"
>
> 5. do that in order for the 3 spec files and you have just installed the alsa
> drivers on your system. The 1st time you do this you need to put the correct stuff
> in your modules.conf file (may take some research) then you get the alsa driver and
> OSS compat capabilities, or you can choose not to use the OOS compat stuff.
>
> Script making the spec, then building and upgrading, as above, and you have
> "no-sweat" ALSA.
>
> NOTE: the (null) rpmbuild did take some tweaking, it does a check for files in the
> buildroot that you don't specify in your files section. In this case there is an
> extra file (going by memory) "/include/sys/asound.h". Add a line at the end on the
> "install" section of the spec file to delete that file and you are good to go.
>
> Gordon Messmer (yinyang@eburg.com) wrote*:
> >
> >On Fri, 2002-08-23 at 03:41, Matthias Saou wrote:
> >>
> >> Probably when Red Hat Linux gets a 2.6 kernel ;-) Until then, a few places
> >> provide good quality alsa packages, but indeed you still have to patch and
> >> recompile your kernel.
> >
> >Not so.  Alsa is build-able independently of the kernel.
> >
> >> Maybe some day I'll try ALSA (never done it yet), and that day you can
> >> expect all needed packages to appear on freshrpms.net :-)
> >
> >I'd be interested in working with you on that if you want those
> >packages.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Limbo-list mailing list
> >Limbo-list@redhat.com
> >
>
> --
> That's "angle" as in geometry.
--
:
####[ Linux One Stanza Tip (LOST) ]###########################
Sub : Extracting lines X to Y in a text file         LOST #261
Use sed ... Syntax: [$sed -n 'X,Yp'
textout.fil
####
####################################
:
_______________________________________________
RPM-List mailing list


Once upon a time, ""Angles" wrote :
> FYI, This is how I make my ALSA rpms ... some people on the (null) list
> did not realize it was pretty easy.
Thanks Angles! I really think I'll give ALSA a shot fairly soon then ;-)
Matthias
--
Matthias Saou                                World Trade Center
-------------                                Edificio Norte 4 Planta
System and Network Engineer                  08039 Barcelona, Spain
Electronic Group Interactive                 Phone : +34 936 00 23 23
_______________________________________________
RPM-List mailing list


On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 07:14:54PM +0200, Matthias Saou wrote:
> I've repackaged the new gkrellm 2.0.0 which is now ported to gtk2
> (woohoo!). Unfortunately, the plugins are incompatible with the
> previous 1.2.x ones, and since not many/all have been ported yet, I
> prefer not to release the package on the main freshrpms.net site for
> now.
You could go the same way as the others and call it gkrellm2 and
conflict with v1 if the executables or paths are the same.
--
Hey, you're right. I don't want to call a destructor on my objects,
I want to call a *destroyer*. Gozer has come for your memory,
little PersistentNode!
-- Joel Gluth
_______________________________________________
RPM-List mailing list


On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:14:54 +0200, Matthias Saou
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've repackaged the new gkrellm 2.0.0 which is now ported to gtk2
> (woohoo!). Unfortunately, the plugins are incompatible with the previous
> 1.2.x ones, and since not many/all have been ported yet, I prefer not to
> release the package on the main freshrpms.net site for now.
>
> For those of you who'd like to try it out, you can grab it here :
>
>
> I think the themes are still compatible, but haven't tried to install some
> with 2.0.0 yet.
> Last note, the above packages are for Valhalla. And yes, although GNOME 2
> is not in Valhalla, gtk2 and glib2 have been from the very beginning! ;-)
Sweet, dude- I was really hoping it'd be out sooner or later; thanks a bunch!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Fahrländer              Linux Zealot, Conservative, and Technomad
Evansville, IN                    My Voyage:
ICQ  5119262
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been complaining for years, and almost no one listened. "Windows is
just easier" you said. "I don't want to learn anything new", you said.
Tell me how easy THIS is:

_______________________________________________
RPM-List mailing list


> made. Other than that, I bet you could do non-root. The following can
be scripted
> easily.
>
...
> 2. unpack them somewhere.
> 3. for each of them, go to the top directory of the unpacked tarball,
and do
> ../configure, then look in (I'm going by memory) TOPDIR/utils/* you
should see a spec
> file there. Do this for the 3 tarballs and you get 3 spec files.
>
The above steps can all be performed "automatically",
if the .spec files are updated to include the necessary
macros in the %prep (%setup -q) and %build stages.
This would make the building of the .rpm files less
error prone and more self-contained, and it would be
somewhat self-documenting.
---
_______________________________________________
RPM-List mailing list


On 2 Sep 2002, RossO wrote:
> John Waylan (who was interviewed in Wired a few years back) pulled out a
> 14.4 second run in the quarter mile (91mph), on a battery pack that
> hasn't been broken in yet. He expects to break his record next year
> topping his 13.1sec/99mph run a couple of years ago. He's shooting for a
> 12 second run.
Battery pack, huh what???
You dont use batteries for a 1/4 mile run, you use capacitors. MANY times
the energy density, and you can get the energy out fast enough. Note that
the battery packs are fully swapped out for recharging after each run
anyway, just like a gas dragster is refueled, so this wouldnt be cheating.
200 MPH should be no problem.
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com


Has anyone seen/heard of/used some package that would let a random person
go to a webpage, create a mailing list, then administer that list.  Also
of course let ppl sign up for the lists and manage their subscriptions.
Similar to the old listbot.org, but i'd like to have it running on my
server not someone elses :)
Chris


----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam L. Beberg"
>
> Memory management is a non-issue for anyone that has any idea at all how
the
> hardware functions.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice
there is.


Making a mesh on the move
A new way to give us fast mobile net access spells further trouble for 3G,
reports Peter Rojas
Peter Rojas
Thursday August 29, 2002
The Guardian
Imagine being able to surf the net at speeds faster than DSL from
anywhere, at any time - you could watch a live video webcast while waiting
for the bus, email photos to your friends while sitting in the park, or
download the MP3 of the song that's playing in the pub before it finishes.
This is the vision of a high-speed wireless internet paradise that the
third-generation (3G) mobile phone companies have been promoting for
years. 3G services are just beginning to be rolled out, but a new
technology called mesh networking promises to deliver on this vision
sooner and more effectively than the mobile phone companies could ever
dream.
Two companies, US startup MeshNetworks and Moteran Networks of Germany,
are each developing their own competing version of mesh networking.
Instead of the current hub-and-spoke model of wireless communications,
with every device connecting to an overburdened central antenna, any time
"mesh-enabled" devices - mobile phones, PDAs, laptops - are in close
proximity to each other, they automatically create a wireless mesh
network. Every device in the area acts as a repeater or router, relaying
traffic for everyone else. Traffic hops from person to person until it
reaches the nearest internet access point, reducing the need for central
antennas, and improving wireless coverage.
As the number of mobile phones soars, and wireless PDAs, laptops, and
other devices begin to crowd the spectrum, this approach to wireless
networking may be inevitable.
Mesh networks also have several other advantages over 3G wireless
networks. While 3G operators roll out mobile services that offer users
connection speeds of up to 144 kbps (roughly three times faster than a
dial-up modem), Moteran and MeshNetworks are able to offer connection
speeds of up to 6Mbps, over a hundred times faster than dial-up. The
technologies they use include Wi-Fi - the emerging standard for high-speed
wireless networking also known as 802.11b. A similarly short-range
protocol called UltraWideBand, which is poised to succeed Wi-Fi, is even
faster and could, by 2005, approach 400 Mbps.
The range of a typical Wi-Fi network is generally too limited to be of
much use when travelling around a city. Mesh networks get around the
problem of coverage by having every device in the network relay traffic.
Even though the range of any individual device is relatively small,
because (in theory) there will be so many users in the surrounding area,
connections will be faster and better than that of a standard 3G wireless
connection.
Because mesh networks use Wi-Fi, the equipment and infrastructure needed
to create them is cheap and readily available. Instead of building
cellular phone towers that often cost hundreds of thousands of pounds, all
that is needed to get a network going are wireless access points (around
£100 now) placed strategically around town to relay traffic, and the
proper software. Existing laptops and PDAs can be mesh-enabled by
software.
It also means that anyone could set up their own mobile phone network.
Unlike with 3G cellular, the part of the spectrum that Wi-Fi operates on
is unregulated in the US, Britain. The mobile phone companies are none too
pleased about this, especially since many of them spent billions of pounds
acquiring 3G licences.
All that's needed are cheap relays and mobile phones equipped to connect
to the network. With every additional customer that signs up coverage gets
better, instead of getting worse, as is the case with mobile phone
networks.
But things get very interesting when you realise that when you have
high-speed internet connections everywhere, and everyone's laptops, PDAs,
and mobile phones are connected together at blazingly fast speeds, sharing
music, movies, or whatever else becomes ridiculously easy. When
UltraWideBand hits, all of this will just accelerate.
At 400Mbps, copying a pirated copy of the Lord of the Rings from the
person sitting across from you at the cafe would take about 15 seconds.
Sooner or later, playgrounds will be filled with kids swapping files of
their favourite songs, movies, and video games.
But the first mesh networks are not likely to be available to consumers.
MeshNetworks has no plans to offer its own high-speed wireless service.
Instead the company plans to sell its technology to others, such as cities
that want to provide wireless internet to police, fire, and public works
employees, or businesses that want to establish wireless networks on the
cheap. Moteran has similar aspirations for small businesses and for
enterprise networks.
The first place average users may use the technology is when it is
incorporated into vehicles, enabling motorists to access the internet at
high speeds, which both companies see happening soon.
When will you be able to wander around town with a 6Mbps connection in
your pocket? It's too soon to say, but just as broadband internet service
was initially available only to businesses and universities, eventually
someone will see the profit in bringing mesh networking to the masses.


On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Adam L. Beberg wrote:
> Battery pack, huh what???
>
> You dont use batteries for a 1/4 mile run, you use capacitors. MANY times
Actually, you use both.
> the energy density, and you can get the energy out fast enough. Note that
No, even best supercapacitors are a long way to go from reasonably good
electrochemical energy sources. But you can recharge and discharge them
very quickly, and they take lots more of cycles than the best battery.
Ideal for absorbing the braking energy and turn them into smoking tires
few moments or minutes afterwards.
> the battery packs are fully swapped out for recharging after each run
> anyway, just like a gas dragster is refueled, so this wouldnt be cheating.
> 200 MPH should be no problem.
I don't see any reason why EVs shouldn't dominate dragster runs. The
traction is the limiting factor, not motor power. You can basically put
the motors into wheelhubs mounted on a composite frame, and dump juice
into them until they melt, which will be some 100 sec downstream. Plenty
of time to smoke anything.
Of course, it doesn't roar, and spew smokage, so it won't happen.


I stand corrected --- I'd thought I'd seen a display there listing in
the Ben Franklin museum which showed them as ranging in age from 19 to
just over 30 for the oldest, most in their early twenties.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


> Another thing to note about Australia is that, while the highest income
> tax bracket (47%) isn't *that* high, it kicks in at around USD33,000.
and it looks like PPP for USD 33k is only
about USD 50k*, at least in Big Macs:
Australia	 A$3.00 USD 1.62	-35%
US		  $2.49 USD 2.49
Switzerland	SFr6.30 USD 3.81	+53%
Interestingly enough, although housing in
Perth seems cheap, housing in Switzerland
doesn't seem to be as expensive as the Big
Macs would imply.
-Dave
* which still doesn't sound bad, if one
can convert urban CA equity into free and
clear Oz ownership.


On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Russell Turpin wrote:
> For the most part, these were angry, middle-aged men. A column in this
> table shows their age at the time:
Mainly they were a bunch of rich people (the white/old/male is irrelivant
but how it happened to be at the time) that didnt want to pay their taxes to
da man er... king. So they had a revolution and formed a no-tax zone,
leading to a very fast growing economy and dreams for all - amazing what
an economy without 40% of everything disappearing to taxes. It was a great
many years before their were federal taxes in the US.
Now we give rich men who dont want to pay any taxes corporations to run,
with enough writeoffs and loopholes that they dont have to pay any :)
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com


I used Async IO on System V in the '87, '88 time frame.  I did it that
way cause I thought it was cool to see if I could keep the tape
spinning.
I can believe Linux is catching up to this, but some ability to do async
IO already existed in the UNIX world.
John Hall
13464 95th Ave NE
Kirkland WA 98034
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com  On Behalf Of
Adam
> L. Beberg
> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 7:35 PM
> To: fork@example.com
> Subject: Gasp!
>
> "Red Hat Linux Advanced Server provides many high end features such
as:
> Support for Asynchronous I/O. Now read I/O no longer needs to stall
your
> application while waiting for completion."
>
> Could it be? After 20 years without this feature UNIX finally catches
up
> to
> Windows and has I/O that doesnt totally suck for nontrivial apps? No
way!
>
> OK, so they do it with signals or a flag, which is completely ghetto,
but
> at
> least they are trying. Keep trying guys, you got the idea, but not the
> clue.
>
> - Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
>   ~beberg/
>   beberg@mithral.com


On Tue, 2002-09-03 at 16:31, Adam L. Beberg wrote:
> It was a great many years before their were federal taxes in the US.
And during said period there were more than a few serious depressions.
Amazing what economies tend to do with or without taxes.
Luis


Congrats, in the end...
> "If they didn't have Max, they might have succumbed, because PayPal was
> susceptible to fraud and money laundering, and Max tightened them up,"

Secure and at ease
By Jack Mccarthy
August 30, 2002 1:01 pm PT
MAX LEVCHIN'S FASCINATION with encryption started when he was a teenager
in Kiev, Ukraine, and continued as he immigrated to the United States
where he attended the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. In
late 1998, not two years out of college, he drew on his passion to
co-found PayPal, the online payment system that has since attracted tens
of millions of users and gained the reputation as the premier Internet
transaction processor. Now online auction house eBay has acquired his
company for a king's ransom.
Not bad for a 27-year-old kid from Ukraine.
A programmer since he was 10 years old, Levchin and his family moved to
Chicago in 1991, and since then he has pursued security as if on a
mission. He created a startup right out of college to build secure
passwords for Palm Pilots. He met Peter Thiel, and the two founded
PayPal to target online payment security. Thiel is now CEO of the
company.
"This company was founded on the notion of security value," Levchin
says. "Peter Thiel and I shared that vision from the very beginning."
Thiel concentrates on company business matters, whereas Levchin remains
focused on security, which he says is the key to the company's good
fortune.
"I explain [PayPal] as a security company posing as a transaction
processor," Levchin says. "We spend a lot of time designing security so
it doesn't step on the toes of convenience and not the other way around.
The trade-off is fundamental."
Mountain View, Calif.-based PayPal allows businesses and consumers with
e-mail addresses to send and receive payments via the Internet,
accepting credit card or bank account payments for purchases. The
service extends to 38 countries, with more than 17 million users and
more than 3 million business accounts.
Most of PayPal's users are participants in online auctions, which led
PayPal to be closely linked with eBay, the leading Web auction site.
Although they were once rivals, the relationship between the two
companies resulted July 8 in eBay's tentative $1.5 billion acquisition
of PayPal. The agreement is subject to regulatory review.
Levchin says he will stay at PayPal as it merges with eBay. "There are
areas of synergy and collaboration we can explore."
Although security is a dominant feature for PayPal, the company's
ability to carry out open communications among the millions of
participants fits the growing Web services model, Levchin says.
"This is a service that links people and allows them to send messages to
one another," he says. Levchin is a panelist at InfoWorld's
Next-Generation Web Services II conference Sept. 20
PayPal, as an online payment system, is a natural target for fraud. And
Levchin has almost singlehandedly saved the company from thieves bent on
exploiting the system, says Avivah Litan, a vice president and analyst
covering financial services at Stamford, Conn.-based Gartner.
"If they didn't have Max, they might have succumbed, because PayPal was
susceptible to fraud and money laundering, and Max tightened them up,"
Litan says.
To combat criminals, Levchin established "Igor," an antifraud program
that monitors transactions and warns of suspicious accounts. Levchin
says building security and antifraud systems is a job he relishes. "The
work I do is important to PayPal and to consumers in general because the
work makes Internet shopping safe. It's the view that ecommerce has
arrived."


> From:  Anders Eriksson
> Date:  Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:23:17 +0200
>
>
> Oooops!
>
> Doesn't work at all. Got this on startup and on any attempt to change folde
> r (which fail)
~sigh~  I'd already found that and checked it in....apparently I did so after
you checked it out and before you sent this mail...I hoped I was fast enough
that you wouldn't see it.
Try again!
Chris
--
Chris Garrigues                 ~cwg/
virCIO
716 Congress, Suite 200
Austin, TX  78701		+1 512 374 0500
World War III:  The Wrong-Doers Vs. the Evil-Doers.


Of course we've had select() since BSD 4.2 and poll() since System V
or so, and they work reasonably well for asynchronous I/O up to a
hundred or so channels, but suck after that; /dev/poll (available in
Solaris and Linux) is one approach to solving this; Linux has a way to
do essentially the same thing with real-time signals, and has for
years; and FreeBSD has kqueue.
More details about these are at

None of this helps with disk I/O; most programs that need to overlap
disk I/O with computation, on either proprietary Unixes or Linux, just
use multiple threads or processes to handle the disk I/O.
POSIX specifies a mechanism for nonblocking disk I/O that most
proprietary Unixes implement.  The Linux kernel hackers are currently
rewriting Linux's entire I/O subsystem essentially from scratch to
work asynchronously, because they can easily build efficient
synchronous I/O primitives from asynchronous ones, but not the other
way around. So now Linux will support this mechanism too.
It probably doesn't need saying for anyone who's read Beberg saying
things like "Memory management is a non-issue for anyone that has any
idea at all how the hardware functions," but he's totally off-base.
People should know by now not to take anything he says seriously, but
apparently some don't, so I'll rebut.
Not surprisingly, the rebuttal requires many more words than the
original stupid errors.
In detail, he wrote:
> Could it be? After 20 years without this feature UNIX finally
> catches up to Windows and has I/O that doesnt [sic] totally suck for
> nontrivial apps? No way!
Unix acquired nonblocking I/O in the form of select() about 23 years
ago, and Solaris has had the particular aio_* calls we are discussing
for many years.  Very few applications need the aio_* calls ---
essentially only high-performance RDBMS servers even benefit from them
at all, and most of those have been faking it fine for a while with
multiple threads or processes.  This just provides a modicum of extra
performance.
> OK, so they do it with signals or a flag, which is completely
> ghetto, but at least they are trying. Keep trying guys, you got the
> idea, but not the clue.
Readers can judge who lacks the clue here.
> The Windows I/O model does definately [sic] blow the doors off the
> UNIX one, but then they had select to point at in it's [sic]
> suckiness and anything would have been an improvement. UNIX is just
> now looking at it's [sic] I/O model and adapting to a multiprocess
> multithreaded world so it's gonna be years yet before a posix API
> comes out of it.
Although I don't have a copy of the spec handy, I think the aio_* APIs
come from the POSIX spec IEEE Std 1003.1-1990, section 6.7.9, which is
13 years old, and which I think documented then-current practice.
They might be even older than that.
Unix has been multiprocess since 1969, and most Unix implementations
have supported multithreading for a decade or more.
> Bottom line is the "do stuff when something happens" model turned
> out to be right, and the UNIX "look for something to do and keep
> looking till you find it no matter how many times you have to look"
> is not really working so great anymore.
Linux's aio_* routines can notify the process of their completion with
a "signal", a feature missing in Microsoft Windows; a "signal" causes
the immediate execution of a "signal handler" in a process.  By
contrast, the Microsoft Windows mechanisms to do similar things (such
as completion ports) do not deliver a notification until the process
polls them.
I don't think signals are a better way to do things in this case
(although I haven't written any RDBMSes myself), but you got the
technical descriptions of the two operating systems exactly backwards.
Most programs that use Linux real-time signals for asynchronous
network I/O, in fact, block the signal in question and poll the signal
queue in a very Windowsish way, using sigtimedwait() or sigwaitinfo().
--
Kragen Sitaker
Edsger Wybe Dijkstra died in August of 2002.  This is a terrible loss after
which the world will never be the same.


Ah, THIS is the car i've seen on discovery channel, but url via a lurker.

- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com


Adam L. Beberg wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Kragen Sitaker wrote:
> [entire post included]
Yep, he sure did. But thanks for reminding us.


On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Kragen Sitaker wrote:
> Of course we've had select() since BSD 4.2 and poll() since System V
> or so, and they work reasonably well for asynchronous I/O up to a
> hundred or so channels, but suck after that; /dev/poll (available in
> Solaris and Linux) is one approach to solving this; Linux has a way to
> do essentially the same thing with real-time signals, and has for
> years; and FreeBSD has kqueue.
>
> More details about these are at
>
>
> None of this helps with disk I/O; most programs that need to overlap
> disk I/O with computation, on either proprietary Unixes or Linux, just
> use multiple threads or processes to handle the disk I/O.
>
> POSIX specifies a mechanism for nonblocking disk I/O that most
> proprietary Unixes implement.  The Linux kernel hackers are currently
> rewriting Linux's entire I/O subsystem essentially from scratch to
> work asynchronously, because they can easily build efficient
> synchronous I/O primitives from asynchronous ones, but not the other
> way around. So now Linux will support this mechanism too.
>
> It probably doesn't need saying for anyone who's read Beberg saying
> things like "Memory management is a non-issue for anyone that has any
> idea at all how the hardware functions," but he's totally off-base.
> People should know by now not to take anything he says seriously, but
> apparently some don't, so I'll rebut.
>
> Not surprisingly, the rebuttal requires many more words than the
> original stupid errors.
>
> In detail, he wrote:
> > Could it be? After 20 years without this feature UNIX finally
> > catches up to Windows and has I/O that doesnt [sic] totally suck for
> > nontrivial apps? No way!
>
> Unix acquired nonblocking I/O in the form of select() about 23 years
> ago, and Solaris has had the particular aio_* calls we are discussing
> for many years.  Very few applications need the aio_* calls ---
> essentially only high-performance RDBMS servers even benefit from them
> at all, and most of those have been faking it fine for a while with
> multiple threads or processes.  This just provides a modicum of extra
> performance.
>
> > OK, so they do it with signals or a flag, which is completely
> > ghetto, but at least they are trying. Keep trying guys, you got the
> > idea, but not the clue.
>
> Readers can judge who lacks the clue here.
>
> > The Windows I/O model does definately [sic] blow the doors off the
> > UNIX one, but then they had select to point at in it's [sic]
> > suckiness and anything would have been an improvement. UNIX is just
> > now looking at it's [sic] I/O model and adapting to a multiprocess
> > multithreaded world so it's gonna be years yet before a posix API
> > comes out of it.
>
> Although I don't have a copy of the spec handy, I think the aio_* APIs
> come from the POSIX spec IEEE Std 1003.1-1990, section 6.7.9, which is
> 13 years old, and which I think documented then-current practice.
> They might be even older than that.
>
> Unix has been multiprocess since 1969, and most Unix implementations
> have supported multithreading for a decade or more.
>
> > Bottom line is the "do stuff when something happens" model turned
> > out to be right, and the UNIX "look for something to do and keep
> > looking till you find it no matter how many times you have to look"
> > is not really working so great anymore.
>
> Linux's aio_* routines can notify the process of their completion with
> a "signal", a feature missing in Microsoft Windows; a "signal" causes
> the immediate execution of a "signal handler" in a process.  By
> contrast, the Microsoft Windows mechanisms to do similar things (such
> as completion ports) do not deliver a notification until the process
> polls them.
>
> I don't think signals are a better way to do things in this case
> (although I haven't written any RDBMSes myself), but you got the
> technical descriptions of the two operating systems exactly backwards.
> Most programs that use Linux real-time signals for asynchronous
> network I/O, in fact, block the signal in question and poll the signal
> queue in a very Windowsish way, using sigtimedwait() or sigwaitinfo().
>
> --
>
Kragen Sitaker
> Edsger Wybe Dijkstra died in August of 2002.  This is a terrible loss after
> which the world will never be the same.
>
>
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com


--- begin forwarded text
Status: RO
From: A guy who models plasma all day...
To: "R. A. Hettinga"
Subject: Re: Electric car an Edsel...
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 22:49:20 -0600
Bob,
This capacitor drive idea isn't completely stupid, but neither is it well
thought out.
Maxwell (www.maxwell.com) makes and sells high energy density capacitors,
called ultracapacitors.  They deliver them in an air-cooled, voltage
regulated module that will charge to 42 V and hold 128 kilojoules -- roughly
the energy in 2 teaspoons of sugar or a bite of a donut -- and weighs 16
kilograms.  If that electrical energy could all be converted to kinetic
energy, there's enough to get the capacitor module up to about 200 mph -- in
a vacuum.
Suppose you take the entire power density of the capacitor module -- 2.8
kw/kg (~4 hp/kg!) --  and punch it through an electric motor.  How much does
the 64 hp electric motor weigh?  If it were as little as 50 kg -- and I bet
it isn't -- that capacitor and motor would have a top speed of 100 mph --
the speed at which their energy is the 128 kJ that was initially stored
electrically in the capacitor.  And it's not at all obvious that the torque
vs. speed characteristic of 42 V DC motors will support this, or how they do
it without wheels, drive train, etc.
But if they can, they can only do it in a vacuum where there is no drag!
On to the Lunarnationals?  Or would you prefer the bite of donut?
----- Original Message -----
From: "R. A. Hettinga"
To: "Vinnie Moscaritolo"
; "Randolph Elliott"
;
; "Duncan Goldie-Scot"
; "G. Gruff"
;
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Electric car an Edsel...
>
> --- begin forwarded text
>
>
> Status: RO
> Delivered-To: fork@example.com
> From: "Adam L. Beberg"
> To: RossO
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: Electric car an Edsel...
> Sender: fork-admin@xent.com
> Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 21:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
>
> On 2 Sep 2002, RossO wrote:
>
> > John Waylan (who was interviewed in Wired a few years back) pulled out a
> > 14.4 second run in the quarter mile (91mph), on a battery pack that
> > hasn't been broken in yet. He expects to break his record next year
> > topping his 13.1sec/99mph run a couple of years ago. He's shooting for a
> > 12 second run.
>
> Battery pack, huh what???
>
> You dont use batteries for a 1/4 mile run, you use capacitors. MANY times
> the energy density, and you can get the energy out fast enough. Note that
> the battery packs are fully swapped out for recharging after each run
> anyway, just like a gas dragster is refueled, so this wouldnt be cheating.
> 200 MPH should be no problem.
>
> - Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
>   ~beberg/
>   beberg@mithral.com
>
> --- end forwarded text
>
>
> --
> -----------------
> R. A. Hettinga
> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation
> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
>
--- end forwarded text
--
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'


At 4:12 PM +0000 on 9/3/02, Russell Turpin wrote:
> Of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence,
> only two were in their twenties at the time. Their
> average age was forty-five. There were no teenagers.
> Fourteen were over fifty. Ben Franklin was the oldest,
> at seventy. For the most part, these were angry,
> middle-aged men.
I think it was George Carlin who said something to the effect that young
men in general are boring, but, around fifty, men either have everything
they ever wanted, or have almost nothing of what they wanted; either of
which makes them behave quite interestingly.
Cheers,
RAH
--
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."
--George Carlin


Glad they finally figured this one out... Note the very careful wording, so
exhaust may be beneficial to ones health as long as you have a glass a day
with some cheese.
Interesting timing, since 16,000 truckers just lost their jobs and dont have
to worry about death from this anymore.
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com
--------
EPA: Diesel Exhaust Can Cause Cancer
Wed Sep 4, 3:29 AM ET
By H. JOSEF HEBERT, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - Inhaling diesel exhausts from large trucks and other
sources over time can cause cancer in humans, an Environmental Protection
Agency ( news - web sites) report concludes after a decade of study.
The EPA finding, released Tuesday, is expected to buttress the government's
push to reduce truck tailpipe emissions by requiring cleaner-burning engines
and diesel fuel with ultra-low sulfur content.
While acknowledging uncertainties about the long-term health effects of
exposure to diesel exhausts, the EPA report said studies involving both
animal tests and occupational exposure suggest strong evidence of a cancer
risk to humans.
"It is reasonable to presume that the hazard extends to environmental
exposure levels" as well, the report said. "The potential human health
effects of diesel exhausts is persuasive, even though assumptions and
uncertainties are involved."
The report mirrors conclusions made previously in documents from various
world health agencies and studies in California and is particularly
significant because the EPA is the federal agency that regulates diesel
emissions under the Clean Air Act.
Some environmentalists have raised concerns recently that the Bush
administration might try to back away from a Clinton-era regulation that
would establish tougher requirements on emissions from large trucks and a
separate rule that virtually would eliminate sulfur from diesel fuel.
EPA Administrator Christie Whitman repeatedly has promised to go ahead with
the tougher truck and diesel rules. Last month, with White House approval,
the EPA rebuffed attempts by some diesel engine manufacturers to postpone
the requirements, approving new penalties against manufacturers who fail to
meet an October deadline for making cleaner-burning truck engines.
The engine rule does not affect emissions from trucks already on the road,
although the separate regulation cutting the amount of sulfur in diesel fuel
is expected to produce pollution reductions.
The EPA's 651-page diesel health assessment did not attempt to estimate the
probability of an individual getting cancer, given certain exposure to
diesel exhaust. Such a risk assessment is commonly made by the EPA when
gauging pollution health concerns.
But in this case, the report said, "the exposure-response data are
considered too uncertain" to produce a confident quantitative estimate of
cancer risk to an individual.
Nevertheless, said the report, the "totality of evidence from human, animal
and other supporting studies" suggests that diesel exhaust "is likely to be
carcinogenic to humans by inhalation, and that this hazard applies to
environmental exposure."
The report reiterated that environmental exposure to diesel exhausts poses
short-term health problems and in the long term has been shown to be a
"chronic respiratory hazard to humans" contributing to increased asthma and
other respiratory problems. In some urban areas diesel exhausts account for
as much as a quarter of the airborne microscopic soot, the report said.
Environmentalists welcomed the study as clear evidence that pollution needs
to be curtailed not only from large trucks but also from off-road
diesel-powered vehicles. EPA spokeswoman Steffanie Bell said the agency
expects to publish a rule early next year dealing with those diesel exhaust
sources, which include farm tractors and construction equipment.
Emily Figdor of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group, a private
environmental organization, said: "To reduce the public's exposure to
harmful diesel emissions, the Bush administration should ... fully implement
clean air standards for diesel trucks and buses and should pass equivalent
standards for diesel construction and farm equipment."
Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the industry group Diesel Technology
Forum, said the EPA's report "focused on the past," whereas "the future is
clean diesel. Diesel trucks and buses built today are more than eight times
cleaner than just a dozen years ago."
The report acknowledged that its findings were based on emissions levels in
the mid-1990s, but said the results continued to be valid because the slow
turnover of truck engines has kept many of these vehicles on the road.


Hindus mourn 'monkey god'
By Omer Farooq
BBC reporter in Hyderabad
Hundreds of people have attended the funeral of a monkey which became
revered as a divine incarnation of a Hindu god in the southern Indian
state of Andhra Pradesh.
The monkey was quite old and both its hind legs were paralysed
Animal rights campaigners say the monkey died of starvation and exhaustion
after being trapped in a temple for a month by over-zealous worshippers.
The animal was cremated in Anantapur district, 400 kilometres (250 miles)
south of the state capital, Hyderabad, on Sunday.
It had not eaten for three weeks.
Last rites were performed by priests in the village of Timmiganipally in
the presence of hundreds of devotees who had come to believe that the
monkey was a reincarnation of the Hindu monkey god, Hanuman.
Garlanded
One animal rights activist said his group's efforts to save the monkey had
failed because of the blind faith of the people.
The monkey's death came a day after he and others tried to move the animal
out of the temple, but were prevented by villagers.
The monkey, which was found perched on top of an idol of Hanuman a month
ago, attracted hundreds of devotees every day from surrounding villages,
as well as from the neighbouring state of Karnataka.
Devotees showered the monkey with fruit and flowers and worshipped it
around the clock.
'Exploited'
Locals said they believed that Lord Hanuman was visiting the village, as
the temple had stopped daily rituals after a dispute between two groups of
residents.
But animal rights campaigners complained that the animal was being
mistreated.
They filed a petition in the state's High Court saying the monkey had been
forcibly confined in the temple.
The group also alleged that people's religious feelings were being
exploited to make money.
The court then ordered the local administration to rescue the monkey - but
villagers prevented officials from taking him for treatment in time.


Hindus got 3 billion gods..... So, losing one is no
big deal, really....
Its just sick that they killed an innocent animal,
which doesn't even know the concept of "God".
Sateesh
--- Tom
wrote:
> Hindus mourn 'monkey god'
>
>
> By Omer Farooq
> BBC reporter in Hyderabad
>
> Hundreds of people have attended the funeral of a
> monkey which became
> revered as a divine incarnation of a Hindu god in
> the southern Indian
> state of Andhra Pradesh.
>
>
> The monkey was quite old and both its hind legs were
> paralysed
>
> Animal rights campaigners say the monkey died of
> starvation and exhaustion
> after being trapped in a temple for a month by
> over-zealous worshippers.
>
> The animal was cremated in Anantapur district, 400
> kilometres (250 miles)
> south of the state capital, Hyderabad, on Sunday.
>
> It had not eaten for three weeks.
>
> Last rites were performed by priests in the village
> of Timmiganipally in
> the presence of hundreds of devotees who had come to
> believe that the
> monkey was a reincarnation of the Hindu monkey god,
> Hanuman.
>
> Garlanded
>
> One animal rights activist said his group's efforts
> to save the monkey had
> failed because of the blind faith of the people.
>
>
> The monkey's death came a day after he and others
> tried to move the animal
> out of the temple, but were prevented by villagers.
>
> The monkey, which was found perched on top of an
> idol of Hanuman a month
> ago, attracted hundreds of devotees every day from
> surrounding villages,
> as well as from the neighbouring state of Karnataka.
>
> Devotees showered the monkey with fruit and flowers
> and worshipped it
> around the clock.
>
> 'Exploited'
>
> Locals said they believed that Lord Hanuman was
> visiting the village, as
> the temple had stopped daily rituals after a dispute
> between two groups of
> residents.
>
> But animal rights campaigners complained that the
> animal was being
> mistreated.
>
> They filed a petition in the state's High Court
> saying the monkey had been
> forcibly confined in the temple.
>
> The group also alleged that people's religious
> feelings were being
> exploited to make money.
>
> The court then ordered the local administration to
> rescue the monkey - but
> villagers prevented officials from taking him for
> treatment in time.
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
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