On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, CDale wrote:
>
> > It also depends on what the fad is or what is in style.  (:
>
> DNA's idea of fads is on the 100 kiloyear scale, unfortunately. As long as
> current fads don't involve in-vivo rewrite of the genome, homeoboxes
> including (now there's a problem for you, homeoboxing the adult), they're
> not all that smart an idear.
I forgot what we were taking about.  (:
>
> > Actualy our silly antiquated ideas about relationships and love have
> > resulted in the bleedings of many upon many a page (and musical
> > instrumnet, and canvas)  What's the problem if we dash a little Mrs.
>
> Art is sure nice. However, if art is our first priority we're kinda
> fux0red, if we've set our sight on a sustainable culture.
Nah, didn't say art's our priority.  Said our ideas about relationships
and love are.
> > And let me tell you this: just because a child happens to be
> > single-parented (what a word), does not mean that child is
> > dysfunctional or lives in a dysfunctional home.  The govt/media/church
>
> Our firmware is not built to be single-parented. You can counteract that
> somewhat by exposing the kid to a community of close friends, but not too
> many do that.
I see it a lot in the south. Also family.
>
> > has tried to make it look like there is a disintegration, when in
> > fact, there is a coming together of other family members and friends
> > to raise children.  It's not decaying -- it's changing.  Nothing wrong
> > with change.
>
> I don't know what exactly is wrong, but something is definitely wrong.
> This is way too important to be left to just our intuition of what is
> right and what is wrong.
One thing that's wrong is who some of us choose as babysitters.  Too many
kids are put in front of the television for hours each day, to be
influenced by what the media and government thinks is important.  I
learned a long time ago that what they think is important and what is are
two different things.  I threw the TV out when Xi was 9.  She's got her
own place now, and still doesn't have one.  YaY!  Another thing that's
wrong is what goes on in public schools.  Some allow a bit of
individuality, but only for a class or a short period of time, depending
on the teachers, most of the time.  I dunno how many times I've seen Xi
come home from school absolutely miserable or outraged about something
that happened at school.  She made it to college, though, whew.  It's a
big problem to tackle, and I don't know the answer.  I like the idea of
the voucher system, because in a way it is a way parents can vote more
efficiently for how their kids are taught.
>   > > > At least from the viewpoint of demographics sustainability and
> > > counterpressure to gerontocracy and resulting innovatiophobia we're doing
> > > something wrong.
> > >
> > > Maybe we should really go dirty Tleilaxu all the way.
> > >
> >
> > Maybe y'all should buy m-w some more bandwidth.
>
> m-w?
>
merriam-webster.  (:
C
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


>>>>> "J" == Jim Whitehead
writes:
J> Seems that governments do have some power over the
J> Web, after all.
At the 1993 ITAC "Roadwork" Conference, Peter Mansbridge asked the
panel of experts how it might be possible to censor the internet.  All
of the panelists laughed except Bill Buxton.  Peter asked him if he
knew something the others didn't.  Bill replied that it /was/ possible
to censor the internet, which drew a gasp from the audience. "All you
need is a global government more Draconian than any that has occured
before in history"
Scientology DMCA suits against Norwegians, legal RIAA file-trading
virii, Bush's Homeland Insecurity, Canada using ISPs as spies, RIAA
suing Prodigy for P2P users and having Foreign sites barred from the
US, France tempers Yahoo, China IP-filters Google ...
Seems Bill didn't know much about how Government really works.  Either
that, or there's a smelly similarity between Buxton's global Big
Brother and the US and Chinese.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


quitcherbraggin.
:-)
gg
-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of CDale
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 3:42 AM
To: bitbitch@magnesium.net
Cc: Adam L. Beberg; fork@spamassassin.taint.org
Subject: Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...)
I dunno, BB.  Women who like to be thought of this way should have the
right to choose to be treated this way.  Men too...  ahem.  (:  My boy
cleans, washes clothes, cooks, fixes stuff, etc, and works the same number
of hours I do, sometimes more, if he has to catch up with me.  (:  I
close him because he is industrious and creative, and because he
unfailingly makes my bed the minute I get out of it.  And boy #2 will be
here soon to help boy #1 with other things such as pedicures,  backrubs,
and sure, fucking.  LOL! (along with the aforementioned "chores") Adam can
have his cake and eat it too, if he can only find the right girl who has
the same beliefs about gender  roles that he has. Of course, he has NO
clue where to look, so we will be constantly laughing at him while he
stumbles around in the dark.
Cindy
P.S. the numbers do not in any way indicate importance or favor -- only
the order in which they move into my house.  -smiles at chris-
P.S. #2.  I'm moving.   Going to New Orleans.  Can't handle any more cab
driving.  The summer sucked here on the MS Gulf Coast, instead of rocking
like it normally does.  Wish me luck.  I'm going to look for another
computer job.  Le Sigh.  (:
On Thu, 5 Sep 2002 bitbitch@magnesium.net wrote:
> Hello Adam,
>
> Thursday, September 05, 2002, 11:33:18 PM, you wrote:
>
>
> ALB> So, you're saying that product bundling works? Good point.
>
> Sometimes I wish I was still in CA.  You deserve a good beating every
> so often...  (anyone else want to do the honors?)
>
> ALB> And how is this any different from "normal" marriage exactly? Other
then
> ALB> that the woman not only gets a man, but one in a country where both
she and
> ALB> her offspring will have actual opportunities? Oh and the lack of
> ALB> "de-feminized, over-sized, self-centered, mercenary-minded" choices?
>
> Mmkay.  For the nth time Adam, we don't live in the land of
> Adam-fantasy.  Women actually are allowed to do things productive,
> independent and entirely free of their male counterparts.  They aren't
> forced to cook and clean and merely be sexual vessels.   Sometimes,
> and this will come as a shock to you, no doubt, men and women even
> find -love- (which is the crucial distinction between this system) and
> they marry one another for the satisfaction of being together.   I
> know, far-fetched and idealistically crazy as it is, but such things
> do happen.   I can guarantee you, if my mother was approached by my
> father, and 25 years ago, he commented on her cleaning ability as a
> motivator for marrying her, we would not be having this conversation
> now.
>
> If guys still have silly antequated ideas about 'women's role' then
> their opportunities for finding women _will_ be scarce.   Again, these
> situations are great, provided everyone is aware that the relationship
> is a contractual one -- he wants a maid, a dog and a prostitute he
> doesn't have to pay, and she wants a country that isn't impoverished
> and teeming with AIDS.  A contract, versus a true love-interest
> marriage.
>
> Egh.  I really need to stop analyzing your posts to this extent.   I
> blame law school and my cat.
>
> -BB
>
> ALB> - Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
> ALB>   ~beberg/
> ALB>   beberg@mithral.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


I recently stumbled across the contents of the journal, "Electronic
Publishing", which was published from January, 1988 through December, 1995.
All papers are available online in PDF (this was apparently one of the first
journals to disseminate in PDF, in 1994). The journal also reprints some of
the better papers from the Electronic Publishing conferences, held bi-yearly
from 1986-1992 (EP86, EP88, EP90, EP92).

Today's reader might look at the contents and wonder about their relevance,
since they don't directly discuss the Web. As an academic, I find this
journal valuable, since the papers are of generally high quality (by top
researchers), and they provide lots of pointers to the evolution of the
ideas that led to many Web technologies.  It's one source among many for
sifting through the intellectual lineage of electronic publishing
technologies.
Rohit and Adam might find the following papers especially relevant, in the
context of their WWW7 "Evolution of Document Species" paper:
Page Description Languages: Development, Implementation and Standardization:
A. L. Oakley and A. C. Norris

Important papers in the history of document preparation systems: basic
sources:
Richard K. Furuta

(Excellent overview of sources)
Several of the authors of papers in this journal are now involved in the ACM
Document Engineering conference series:

- Jim


Why should I?  (:
C
On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Geege Schuman wrote:
> quitcherbraggin.
>
> :-)
> gg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of CDale
> Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 3:42 AM
> To: bitbitch@magnesium.net
> Cc: Adam L. Beberg; fork@spamassassin.taint.org
> Subject: Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...)
>
>
> I dunno, BB.  Women who like to be thought of this way should have the
> right to choose to be treated this way.  Men too...  ahem.  (:  My boy
> cleans, washes clothes, cooks, fixes stuff, etc, and works the same number
> of hours I do, sometimes more, if he has to catch up with me.  (:  I
> close him because he is industrious and creative, and because he
> unfailingly makes my bed the minute I get out of it.  And boy #2 will be
> here soon to help boy #1 with other things such as pedicures,  backrubs,
> and sure, fucking.  LOL! (along with the aforementioned "chores") Adam can
> have his cake and eat it too, if he can only find the right girl who has
> the same beliefs about gender  roles that he has. Of course, he has NO
> clue where to look, so we will be constantly laughing at him while he
> stumbles around in the dark.
> Cindy
> P.S. the numbers do not in any way indicate importance or favor -- only
> the order in which they move into my house.  -smiles at chris-
> P.S. #2.  I'm moving.   Going to New Orleans.  Can't handle any more cab
> driving.  The summer sucked here on the MS Gulf Coast, instead of rocking
> like it normally does.  Wish me luck.  I'm going to look for another
> computer job.  Le Sigh.  (:
>
> On Thu, 5 Sep 2002 bitbitch@magnesium.net wrote:
>
> > Hello Adam,
> >
> > Thursday, September 05, 2002, 11:33:18 PM, you wrote:
> >
> >
> > ALB> So, you're saying that product bundling works? Good point.
> >
> > Sometimes I wish I was still in CA.  You deserve a good beating every
> > so often...  (anyone else want to do the honors?)
> >
> > ALB> And how is this any different from "normal" marriage exactly? Other
> then
> > ALB> that the woman not only gets a man, but one in a country where both
> she and
> > ALB> her offspring will have actual opportunities? Oh and the lack of
> > ALB> "de-feminized, over-sized, self-centered, mercenary-minded" choices?
> >
> > Mmkay.  For the nth time Adam, we don't live in the land of
> > Adam-fantasy.  Women actually are allowed to do things productive,
> > independent and entirely free of their male counterparts.  They aren't
> > forced to cook and clean and merely be sexual vessels.   Sometimes,
> > and this will come as a shock to you, no doubt, men and women even
> > find -love- (which is the crucial distinction between this system) and
> > they marry one another for the satisfaction of being together.   I
> > know, far-fetched and idealistically crazy as it is, but such things
> > do happen.   I can guarantee you, if my mother was approached by my
> > father, and 25 years ago, he commented on her cleaning ability as a
> > motivator for marrying her, we would not be having this conversation
> > now.
> >
> > If guys still have silly antequated ideas about 'women's role' then
> > their opportunities for finding women _will_ be scarce.   Again, these
> > situations are great, provided everyone is aware that the relationship
> > is a contractual one -- he wants a maid, a dog and a prostitute he
> > doesn't have to pay, and she wants a country that isn't impoverished
> > and teeming with AIDS.  A contract, versus a true love-interest
> > marriage.
> >
> > Egh.  I really need to stop analyzing your posts to this extent.   I
> > blame law school and my cat.
> >
> > -BB
> >
> > ALB> - Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
> > ALB>   ~beberg/
> > ALB>   beberg@mithral.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> "I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn
>
>
>
>
>
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


On Friday 06 September 2002 06:16 am, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> I don't know what exactly is wrong, but something is definitely wrong.
> This is way too important to be left to just our intuition of what is
> right and what is wrong.
This is one of those formally difficult points from a philosophy
perspective.   You can't really throw out intuition and emotion because
reason really only gets you answers that reflect the genome and the
ancestral environment.   Going forward requires creativity and experiment.
Eirikur


If it's unwritten, how'm I supposed to know unless someone CALLS me up and
tells me/  hint hint.  LOL  (:  Well, I reckon it's a written rule now,
since it's on the internet in text format w/ your name attached, but then
again, when have I ever followed any damned rules???  (:
C
On Sat, 7 Sep 2002, Geege Schuman wrote:
> unwritten rule.  8-)
>
> gg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of CDale
> Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 10:21 PM
> To: Geege Schuman
> Cc: bitbitch@magnesium.net; Adam L. Beberg; fork@spamassassin.taint.org
> Subject: RE: Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...)
>
>
> Why should I?  (:
> C
>
> On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Geege Schuman wrote:
>
> > quitcherbraggin.
> >
> > :-)
> > gg
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of CDale
> > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 3:42 AM
> > To: bitbitch@magnesium.net
> > Cc: Adam L. Beberg; fork@spamassassin.taint.org
> > Subject: Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...)
> >
> >
> > I dunno, BB.  Women who like to be thought of this way should have the
> > right to choose to be treated this way.  Men too...  ahem.  (:  My boy
> > cleans, washes clothes, cooks, fixes stuff, etc, and works the same number
> > of hours I do, sometimes more, if he has to catch up with me.  (:  I
> > close him because he is industrious and creative, and because he
> > unfailingly makes my bed the minute I get out of it.  And boy #2 will be
> > here soon to help boy #1 with other things such as pedicures,  backrubs,
> > and sure, fucking.  LOL! (along with the aforementioned "chores") Adam can
> > have his cake and eat it too, if he can only find the right girl who has
> > the same beliefs about gender  roles that he has. Of course, he has NO
> > clue where to look, so we will be constantly laughing at him while he
> > stumbles around in the dark.
> > Cindy
> > P.S. the numbers do not in any way indicate importance or favor -- only
> > the order in which they move into my house.  -smiles at chris-
> > P.S. #2.  I'm moving.   Going to New Orleans.  Can't handle any more cab
> > driving.  The summer sucked here on the MS Gulf Coast, instead of rocking
> > like it normally does.  Wish me luck.  I'm going to look for another
> > computer job.  Le Sigh.  (:
> >
> > On Thu, 5 Sep 2002 bitbitch@magnesium.net wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Adam,
> > >
> > > Thursday, September 05, 2002, 11:33:18 PM, you wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > ALB> So, you're saying that product bundling works? Good point.
> > >
> > > Sometimes I wish I was still in CA.  You deserve a good beating every
> > > so often...  (anyone else want to do the honors?)
> > >
> > > ALB> And how is this any different from "normal" marriage exactly? Other
> > then
> > > ALB> that the woman not only gets a man, but one in a country where both
> > she and
> > > ALB> her offspring will have actual opportunities? Oh and the lack of
> > > ALB> "de-feminized, over-sized, self-centered, mercenary-minded"
> choices?
> > >
> > > Mmkay.  For the nth time Adam, we don't live in the land of
> > > Adam-fantasy.  Women actually are allowed to do things productive,
> > > independent and entirely free of their male counterparts.  They aren't
> > > forced to cook and clean and merely be sexual vessels.   Sometimes,
> > > and this will come as a shock to you, no doubt, men and women even
> > > find -love- (which is the crucial distinction between this system) and
> > > they marry one another for the satisfaction of being together.   I
> > > know, far-fetched and idealistically crazy as it is, but such things
> > > do happen.   I can guarantee you, if my mother was approached by my
> > > father, and 25 years ago, he commented on her cleaning ability as a
> > > motivator for marrying her, we would not be having this conversation
> > > now.
> > >
> > > If guys still have silly antequated ideas about 'women's role' then
> > > their opportunities for finding women _will_ be scarce.   Again, these
> > > situations are great, provided everyone is aware that the relationship
> > > is a contractual one -- he wants a maid, a dog and a prostitute he
> > > doesn't have to pay, and she wants a country that isn't impoverished
> > > and teeming with AIDS.  A contract, versus a true love-interest
> > > marriage.
> > >
> > > Egh.  I really need to stop analyzing your posts to this extent.   I
> > > blame law school and my cat.
> > >
> > > -BB
> > >
> > > ALB> - Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
> > > ALB>   ~beberg/
> > > ALB>   beberg@mithral.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > "I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> "I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn
>
>
>
>
>
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


CDale URLed thusly:
>
>The assumption that females of all species tend to be less promiscuous
>than males simply does not fit the facts, Hrdy contended.
Well, DUH!!!
It is perfectly obvious that (heterosexual) promiscuity is exactly,
precisely identical between males and females.
Of course the shapes of the distributions may differ.
R


Robert Harley:
>It is perfectly obvious that (heterosexual) promiscuity is exactly,
>precisely identical between males and females.
Yeah, assuming approximately equal populations.
But that obscures the different modes of
promiscuity. Both the person who gives sex for
money or power or companionship and the person
who uses money and power and companionship to
get sex are promiscuous, in the broadest sense
of the word. But their motives and behavior are
quite different.
Langur monkeys were the example in the cited
article. "Dominant males .. kill babies that
are not their own." "The dominant male monkey
.. seeks to defend his harem of females." But
cozying up to the current dominant male isn't
the best strategy for female langurs, because
"dominant males are dethroned by rivals every
27 months or so." "By mating with as many
extra-group males as possible, female langurs
ensure their offspring against infanticide,"
by the male who is likely next to rule the
roost.
Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't paint a
picture of carefree females engaged in joyously
promiscuous couplings. The dom cab driver who
is taking her two boy toys to New Orleans is a
better picture of that. ;-)
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:


unwritten rule.  8-)
gg
-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of CDale
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 10:21 PM
To: Geege Schuman
Cc: bitbitch@magnesium.net; Adam L. Beberg; fork@spamassassin.taint.org
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...)
Why should I?  (:
C
On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Geege Schuman wrote:
> quitcherbraggin.
>
> :-)
> gg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of CDale
> Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 3:42 AM
> To: bitbitch@magnesium.net
> Cc: Adam L. Beberg; fork@spamassassin.taint.org
> Subject: Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...)
>
>
> I dunno, BB.  Women who like to be thought of this way should have the
> right to choose to be treated this way.  Men too...  ahem.  (:  My boy
> cleans, washes clothes, cooks, fixes stuff, etc, and works the same number
> of hours I do, sometimes more, if he has to catch up with me.  (:  I
> close him because he is industrious and creative, and because he
> unfailingly makes my bed the minute I get out of it.  And boy #2 will be
> here soon to help boy #1 with other things such as pedicures,  backrubs,
> and sure, fucking.  LOL! (along with the aforementioned "chores") Adam can
> have his cake and eat it too, if he can only find the right girl who has
> the same beliefs about gender  roles that he has. Of course, he has NO
> clue where to look, so we will be constantly laughing at him while he
> stumbles around in the dark.
> Cindy
> P.S. the numbers do not in any way indicate importance or favor -- only
> the order in which they move into my house.  -smiles at chris-
> P.S. #2.  I'm moving.   Going to New Orleans.  Can't handle any more cab
> driving.  The summer sucked here on the MS Gulf Coast, instead of rocking
> like it normally does.  Wish me luck.  I'm going to look for another
> computer job.  Le Sigh.  (:
>
> On Thu, 5 Sep 2002 bitbitch@magnesium.net wrote:
>
> > Hello Adam,
> >
> > Thursday, September 05, 2002, 11:33:18 PM, you wrote:
> >
> >
> > ALB> So, you're saying that product bundling works? Good point.
> >
> > Sometimes I wish I was still in CA.  You deserve a good beating every
> > so often...  (anyone else want to do the honors?)
> >
> > ALB> And how is this any different from "normal" marriage exactly? Other
> then
> > ALB> that the woman not only gets a man, but one in a country where both
> she and
> > ALB> her offspring will have actual opportunities? Oh and the lack of
> > ALB> "de-feminized, over-sized, self-centered, mercenary-minded"
choices?
> >
> > Mmkay.  For the nth time Adam, we don't live in the land of
> > Adam-fantasy.  Women actually are allowed to do things productive,
> > independent and entirely free of their male counterparts.  They aren't
> > forced to cook and clean and merely be sexual vessels.   Sometimes,
> > and this will come as a shock to you, no doubt, men and women even
> > find -love- (which is the crucial distinction between this system) and
> > they marry one another for the satisfaction of being together.   I
> > know, far-fetched and idealistically crazy as it is, but such things
> > do happen.   I can guarantee you, if my mother was approached by my
> > father, and 25 years ago, he commented on her cleaning ability as a
> > motivator for marrying her, we would not be having this conversation
> > now.
> >
> > If guys still have silly antequated ideas about 'women's role' then
> > their opportunities for finding women _will_ be scarce.   Again, these
> > situations are great, provided everyone is aware that the relationship
> > is a contractual one -- he wants a maid, a dog and a prostitute he
> > doesn't have to pay, and she wants a country that isn't impoverished
> > and teeming with AIDS.  A contract, versus a true love-interest
> > marriage.
> >
> > Egh.  I really need to stop analyzing your posts to this extent.   I
> > blame law school and my cat.
> >
> > -BB
> >
> > ALB> - Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
> > ALB>   ~beberg/
> > ALB>   beberg@mithral.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> "I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn
>
>
>
>
>
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


cdale is a double chocolate chip macadamia to my vanilla wafer.  wait, maybe
i'm a ginger snap.
gg
-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of
Russell Turpin
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 11:06 AM
To: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
Subject: Re: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...)
Robert Harley:
>It is perfectly obvious that (heterosexual) promiscuity is exactly,
>precisely identical between males and females.
Yeah, assuming approximately equal populations.
But that obscures the different modes of
promiscuity. Both the person who gives sex for
money or power or companionship and the person
who uses money and power and companionship to
get sex are promiscuous, in the broadest sense
of the word. But their motives and behavior are
quite different.
Langur monkeys were the example in the cited
article. "Dominant males .. kill babies that
are not their own." "The dominant male monkey
.. seeks to defend his harem of females." But
cozying up to the current dominant male isn't
the best strategy for female langurs, because
"dominant males are dethroned by rivals every
27 months or so." "By mating with as many
extra-group males as possible, female langurs
ensure their offspring against infanticide,"
by the male who is likely next to rule the
roost.
Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't paint a
picture of carefree females engaged in joyously
promiscuous couplings. The dom cab driver who
is taking her two boy toys to New Orleans is a
better picture of that. ;-)
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:


Hah.  I guess she doesn't want everyone to know about all the kinky sex
she and I have had.  LOL
C
On Sat, 7 Sep 2002, Geege Schuman wrote:
> cdale is a double chocolate chip macadamia to my vanilla wafer.  wait, maybe
> i'm a ginger snap.
>
>
> gg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of
> Russell Turpin
> Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 11:06 AM
> To: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
> Subject: Re: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...)
>
>
> Robert Harley:
> >It is perfectly obvious that (heterosexual) promiscuity is exactly,
> >precisely identical between males and females.
>
> Yeah, assuming approximately equal populations.
> But that obscures the different modes of
> promiscuity. Both the person who gives sex for
> money or power or companionship and the person
> who uses money and power and companionship to
> get sex are promiscuous, in the broadest sense
> of the word. But their motives and behavior are
> quite different.
>
> Langur monkeys were the example in the cited
> article. "Dominant males .. kill babies that
> are not their own." "The dominant male monkey
> .. seeks to defend his harem of females." But
> cozying up to the current dominant male isn't
> the best strategy for female langurs, because
> "dominant males are dethroned by rivals every
> 27 months or so." "By mating with as many
> extra-group males as possible, female langurs
> ensure their offspring against infanticide,"
> by the male who is likely next to rule the
> roost.
>
> Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't paint a
> picture of carefree females engaged in joyously
> promiscuous couplings. The dom cab driver who
> is taking her two boy toys to New Orleans is a
> better picture of that. ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
>
>
>
>
>
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


Oh, well, uh, thank you, Russell.  LOL@#!  (I think?)
C
On Sat, 7 Sep 2002, Russell Turpin wrote:
> Robert Harley:
> >It is perfectly obvious that (heterosexual) promiscuity is exactly,
> >precisely identical between males and females.
>
> Yeah, assuming approximately equal populations.
> But that obscures the different modes of
> promiscuity. Both the person who gives sex for
> money or power or companionship and the person
> who uses money and power and companionship to
> get sex are promiscuous, in the broadest sense
> of the word. But their motives and behavior are
> quite different.
>
> Langur monkeys were the example in the cited
> article. "Dominant males .. kill babies that
> are not their own." "The dominant male monkey
> .. seeks to defend his harem of females." But
> cozying up to the current dominant male isn't
> the best strategy for female langurs, because
> "dominant males are dethroned by rivals every
> 27 months or so." "By mating with as many
> extra-group males as possible, female langurs
> ensure their offspring against infanticide,"
> by the male who is likely next to rule the
> roost.
>
> Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't paint a
> picture of carefree females engaged in joyously
> promiscuous couplings. The dom cab driver who
> is taking her two boy toys to New Orleans is a
> better picture of that. ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
>
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


Definitional nit to pick:
Robert Harley writes:
> It is perfectly obvious that (heterosexual) promiscuity is exactly,
> precisely identical between males and females.
>
> Of course the shapes of the distributions may differ.
You've redefined "promiscuity" above as "total" or "average"
activity, which seems to rob it of its common meaning:
activity above some specific threshold (usually "one") or
norm, or involving extra or indiscriminate variety.
"Promiscuity" is thus inherently a description of
distributions rather than averages.
Consider a population of 3 males and 3 females. Let
there be three pairings which result in each person
having sex once. Then, let one of the males also have
sex with the other two females.
Sure, the average number of sex acts and sex partners
is equal between the sexes, tautologically.
But here more women than men are:
- above the single partner threshold
- above the overall average 1.67 acts/partners threshold
- above the overall median 1.5 acts/partners
- above the overall mode 1 acts/partners
And here women have a higher mode (2) and median (2)
number of partners.
So in this contrived population, females are more
"promiscuous" than males, unless "promiscuity" is
defined uselessly.
- Gordon


CDale:
>I guess [Geege] doesn't want everyone to know about all the kinky sex she
>and I have had.
Yeah, like I'm going to believe that without
seeing the photos. Next, you'll be telling me
that Beberg found a job he likes.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.


intersectedness: i'd be surprised if beberg ever had a BLOWjob he liked. i
mean, it would have involved OTHERS, less EVOLVED others.
:-)
gg
-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of
Russell Turpin
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 3:07 PM
To: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
Subject: RE: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...)
CDale:
>I guess [Geege] doesn't want everyone to know about all the kinky sex she
>and I have had.
Yeah, like I'm going to believe that without
seeing the photos. Next, you'll be telling me
that Beberg found a job he likes.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.


Today a French officer called Michel Fournier is supposed to get in a
350-metre tall helium balloon, ride it up to the edge of space (40 km
altitude) and jump out.  His fall should last 6.5 minutes and reach
speeds of Mach 1.5.  He hopes to open his parachute manually at the
end, although with an automatic backup if he is 7 seconds from the
ground and still hasn't opened it.
R
ObQuote:
"Vederò, si averò si grossi li coglioni, come ha il re di Franza."
("Let's see if I've got as much balls as the King of France!")
- Pope Julius II, 2 January 1511


So uh, would this qualify for the Darwin awards if he doesn't make it?
Freaking french people...
:-)
-BB
RH> Today a French officer called Michel Fournier is supposed to get in a
RH> 350-metre tall helium balloon, ride it up to the edge of space (40 km
RH> altitude) and jump out.  His fall should last 6.5 minutes and reach
RH> speeds of Mach 1.5.  He hopes to open his parachute manually at the
RH> end, although with an automatic backup if he is 7 seconds from the
RH> ground and still hasn't opened it.
RH> R
RH> ObQuote:
RH>   "Vederò, si averò si grossi li coglioni, come ha il re di Franza."
RH>   ("Let's see if I've got as much balls as the King of France!")
RH>   - Pope Julius II, 2 January 1511
--
Best regards,
bitbitch                            mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net


On 9/8/02 7:38 AM, "Gary Lawrence Murphy"
wrote:
>   J> ...  If you want a region of the globe mapped out to a very
>   J> high resolution (e.g. 1-meter), they can scan the area with
>   J> aircraft LIDAR and add it to the database, thereby making that
>   J> region zoomable to the resolution of the database for that
>   J> area.
>
> Can you give us an example of an application where 1-m resolution
> would be worth the considerable expense?
An example:  Being able to model RF propagation in three dimensions for a
metro area when deploying wireless networks.  By having every single tree
and building detail and similar, you can "see" even tiny dead spots due to
physical blockage and signal attenuation.  Overlay this with fiber map data
for yourself and your competitors (when you can glean such data), which is
also useful at this resolution, and you have a very slick way of modeling
existing network deployments in excruciating detail and optimizing further
deployments to maximize coverage and bandwidth.  Take that and tie it into a
slick geo-physically aware real-time network monitoring and management
system and you've really got something...
For many applications though, 5-meter data is probably adequate.
-James Rogers
jamesr@best.com


Robert Harley:
> Gordon Mohr wrote:
> >Definitional nit to pick:
> >You've redefined "promiscuity" above as "total" or "average" activity,
>
> I think it's clear that I'm talking about averages, so I'm not sure
> why that nit needs to be picked...
It was clear you were talking about averages. But it should
be equally clear that that isn't what people mean when they
use the word "promiscuity".
> >which seems to rob it of its common meaning:
> >activity above some specific threshold (usually "one")
>
> In that case, "promiscous" is a vacuous term in modern Western
> societies (but we knew that :), where people average 7 partners or so
> in their adult lives.
Not at all. There are still people who only have one partner.
There are many more whoe only have one partner over "long"
periods of time. So it is far from "vacuous" to describe some
people as "promiscuous" and others as "not promiscuous",
especially over a set period. ("He was promiscuous in college.
He is no longer promiscuous.")
The word has a clear meaning, despite your continuing tendency
to gloss that meaning over with population averages.
> >Consider a population of 3 males and 3 females.
> >[...]
> >so in this contrived population, females are more "promiscuous" than males,
>
> So 1 girl gets 1 guy, 2 girls get 2 guys, 2 guys get 1 girl, 1 guy
> gets 3 girls.  Sounds like six of one versus half a dozen of the other
> to me.
OK, then. Consider a population of 1,000,000. 500,000 men each
pair off with 500,000 women. Then, 1 man, let's call him "Wilt",
also has sex with the other 499,999 women.
499,999 women have had more than one partner. 499,999 men have
only had one partner. It is now "perfectly obvious" that in the
common meaning of the term, among this contrived population,
that women are "more promiscuous" than men -- even though the
single "most promiscuous" person, Wilt, is a man.
"Promiscuity" is not "exactly, perfectly identical between males
and females", except under a degenerate custom definition of
"promiscuity".
> >unless "promiscuity" is defined uselessly.
>
> Ain't nothin' useless about averages.
Averages are useful, sure -- but much more so if called by their
actual name, rather than conflated with another concept.
- Gordon


On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, Gordon Mohr wrote:
> OK, then. Consider a population of 1,000,000. 500,000 men each
> pair off with 500,000 women. Then, 1 man, let's call him "Wilt",
> also has sex with the other 499,999 women.
It is not uncommon to find gay males who had sex with several thousands
partners (there would be more, in fact lots more, probably, but a lot of
them have died). Don't have to be a callboy, if considering that you can
have intercourse with several partners in a single day in a bathouse it
doesn't look particularly difficult to do.
Clearly this is not something what hets do, prostitution not taken into
account.


>>>>> "J" == James Rogers
writes:
J> An example: Being able to model RF propagation in three
J> dimensions for a metro area when deploying wireless networks.
J> By having every single tree and building detail and similar,
J> you can "see" even tiny dead spots due to physical blockage and
J> signal attenuation.
Hmmm, just as I thought.  In other words, it has no practical uses
whatsoever ;) ... do the biz guys in your office /really/ think WISPs
are really going to shell out /their/ money to find a house or two
they can't reach?  Experience suggests (a) they won't care and (b)
they will even sign up that errant house and then give them a
run-around blaming the dead-spot on "unsupported vendor equipment".
Thus, yes, it is 'cool': Expensive toy with no apparent function ;)
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


On 9/8/02 7:38 AM, "Gary Lawrence Murphy"
wrote:
>   J> ...  If you want a region of the globe mapped out to a very
>   J> high resolution (e.g. 1-meter), they can scan the area with
>   J> aircraft LIDAR and add it to the database, thereby making that
>   J> region zoomable to the resolution of the database for that
>   J> area.
>
> Can you give us an example of an application where 1-m resolution
> would be worth the considerable expense?
Planning battle tactics; for this reason, the intelligence press
reports, spy satellites have had 1-meter resolution for many years.
Finding an individual vehicle in a city might occasionally be possible
with 1-m images and might occasionally also be worth the money.
For small areas you have legitimate access to, it's probably cheaper
to go there with a digital camera and a GPS and take some snapshots
from ground level.  Aerial photos might be cheaper for large areas,
areas where you're not allowed --- or, perhaps, physically able --- to
go, and cases where you don't have time to send a ground guy around
the whole area.
--
Kragen Sitaker
Edsger Wybe Dijkstra died in August of 2002.  The world has lost a great
man.  See  and
 for details.


On 9/8/02 3:16 PM, "Gary Lawrence Murphy"
wrote:
>>>>>> "J" == James Rogers
writes:
>
>   J> An example: Being able to model RF propagation in three
>   J> dimensions for a metro area when deploying wireless networks.
>   J> By having every single tree and building detail and similar,
>   J> you can "see" even tiny dead spots due to physical blockage and
>   J> signal attenuation.
>
> Hmmm, just as I thought.  In other words, it has no practical uses
> whatsoever ;) ... do the biz guys in your office /really/ think WISPs
> are really going to shell out /their/ money to find a house or two
> they can't reach?  Experience suggests (a) they won't care and (b)
> they will even sign up that errant house and then give them a
> run-around blaming the dead-spot on "unsupported vendor equipment".
Errrr....the biz guys in my office don't care what the "WISPs" want to do
with their little WiFi networks.  And the bandwidth shadows in most cities
are surprisingly large and common.  They aren't selling the software, which
is pretty pricy as it happens.  They are using it to optimize next
generation wireless canopies over metro areas and fiber networks on a large
scale.  There are an essentially infinite number of metro wireless
configurations, some of which generate far more dead or marginal spots and
others which are very expensive to operate (due to backhaul transit
considerations) or both.  This software can be used as a tool to optimize
the canopy coverage and minimize the actual transit costs since the wireless
is tied into fiber at multiple points.
The canopies we are talking about aren't short-range wifi technologies, but
a mixture of long-range high-performance wireless networking, with bandwidth
measured in tens to hundreds of mbits and ranges measured in miles (up to
well over a hundred miles on the extreme end).  At those ranges and
bandwidth levels, the cost of providing the network can easily vary by an
order of magnitude or more depending on how you manage RF shadows and
proximity to fiber access points.  The idea ultimately is to optimize the
cost and performance such that no existing network infrastructure providers
can remotely compete and maintain profitability.  This is a surprisingly low
bar, and it is about time networks were designed with this level of
large-scale optimization (cost per mbit, maximizing coverage, and effective
bandwidth available per unit area) in any case.  And for this company's
long-term plans, this type of capability will be absolutely necessary to
keep things sane.
Or at least investors find this capability very sexy and compelling,
especially since we have this lovely visualization engine tied into the
system (CLI batches never have the same effect, even if it is more
efficient).
-James Rogers
jamesr@best.com


On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote:
--]doesn't look particularly difficult to do.
--]
--]Clearly this is not something what hets do, prostitution not taken into
--]account.
So lets see, hets dont go to swing clubs, meat markets or the like at all?
Hmm. And being gay means hanging in the bath house being a cum dumpster
while you listen to the Devine Ms M belt one out for the boys?
Ugh, with thinking like this who needs the bible belt?


who watched Lathe of Heaven?  (A&E, 8 pm EDT)  who has seen the original?
if it's airing now on the west coast, do catch it.
gg


>>>>> "K" == Kragen Sitaker
writes:
K> Planning battle tactics; for this reason, the intelligence
K> press reports, spy satellites have had 1-meter resolution for
K> many years.
The military already have these spy satellites; they are basically
Hubble pointed the other way, so I doubt they will be a big enough
customer of this service to justify a next-generation wireless
network rollout for the rest of us.
K> Finding an individual vehicle in a city might occasionally be
K> possible with 1-m images and might occasionally also be worth
K> the money.
My car is only just over 1.5 meters across and maybe 3 meters long, so
that means roughly six pixels total surface area.  You might find a
16-wheeler this way, but how often do people misplace a 16-wheeler
such that it is _that_ important to get old images of the terrain?
Since they can't send up aircraft to update images in realtime every
time, how is this different from just releasing the map on DVDs?  Why
wireless?
I thought of the common problem of lost prize cattle, but there again,
will there really be business-case for creating a hi-res map of
wyoming on the fly instead of just doing what they do now and hiring a
helicopter for a few hours?
K> For small areas you have legitimate access to, it's probably
K> cheaper to go there with a digital camera and a GPS and take
K> some snapshots from ground level.  Aerial photos might be
K> cheaper for large areas, areas where you're not allowed --- or,
K> perhaps, physically able --- to go, and cases where you don't
K> have time to send a ground guy around the whole area.
I can see lower-res being useful for Geologists, but considering their
points of interest change only a few times every few million years,
there's not much need to be wireless based on up-to-the-minute data.
I expect most geologists travel with a laptop perfectly capable of DVD
playback, and I also expect the most interesting geology is in regions
where the wireless ain't going to go ;)
I don't mean to nit-pick, it's just that I'm curious as to (a) the
need for this product that justifies the extreme cost and (b) how we'd
justify the ubiquitous next-generation wireless network that this
product postulates when we /still/ can't find the killer app for 3G.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


>>>>> "J" == James Rogers
writes:
J> ...  They aren't selling the software, which is pretty pricy as
J> it happens.  They are using it to optimize next generation
J> wireless canopies over metro areas and fiber networks on a
J> large scale.  There are an essentially infinite number of metro
J> wireless configurations, some of which generate far more dead
J> or marginal spots and others which are very expensive to
J> operate (due to backhaul transit considerations) or both.  This
J> software can be used as a tool to optimize the canopy coverage
J> and minimize the actual transit costs since the wireless is
J> tied into fiber at multiple points.
So you only need to map a handful of metropolitan areas?
J> Or at least investors find this capability very sexy and
J> compelling
Ah ... now /that/ I will believe :)
Don't mind me; I'm just getting even more cynical in my old age.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


On 9/8/02 8:09 PM, "Gary Lawrence Murphy"
wrote:
> My car is only just over 1.5 meters across and maybe 3 meters long, so
> that means roughly six pixels total surface area.  You might find a
> 16-wheeler this way, but how often do people misplace a 16-wheeler
> such that it is _that_ important to get old images of the terrain?
> Since they can't send up aircraft to update images in realtime every
> time, how is this different from just releasing the map on DVDs?  Why
> wireless?
It seems that several people are missing the point that this is NOT an image
database.  It is high-resolution topological data rendered in three
dimensions.  Images are overlayed on the topological data to help people
navigate familiar terrain visually.  In other words, it is not intended as a
wannabe spy satellite.  Rather it is a very accurate three dimensional model
of the earth's surface.  When a particular region in question is covered in
a city, the buildings in the city are mapped as though they are part of the
earth's surface.  The part that makes the app killer is that you can map all
sorts of data layers on top of their core topological data.
Got it?
-James Rogers
jamesr@best.com


I agree w/ ya Tom.  That kind of thinking is SO idiotic.  Sure, gays are
promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more AIDSphobic than
hets, generally speaking....
C
On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, Tom wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
> --]doesn't look particularly difficult to do.
> --]
> --]Clearly this is not something what hets do, prostitution not taken into
> --]account.
>
> So lets see, hets dont go to swing clubs, meat markets or the like at all?
> Hmm. And being gay means hanging in the bath house being a cum dumpster
> while you listen to the Devine Ms M belt one out for the boys?
>
> Ugh, with thinking like this who needs the bible belt?
>
>
>
>
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


Gary Lawrence Murphy cynicizes:
> Hmmm, just as I thought.  In other words, it has no practical uses
> whatsoever ;)
Tourism is the world's largest industry. Using this
to preview your travels, or figure out where you are,
would be very valuable.
Online gaming continues to grow. Screw "Britannia",
real-life Britain would be a fun world to wander/
conquer/explore virtually, in role-playing or real-
time-strategy games.
And of course, as James Rogers points out, it's an
ideal display substrate for all sorts of other
overlaid data. Maps are great, photrealistic 3-D
maps of everywhere which can have many other static
and dynamic datasets overlaid are spectacular.
(Combining those last two thoughts: consider the
static world map, in faded colors, with patches
here-and-there covered by live webcams, stitched
over the static info in bright colors... it'd be
like the "fog of war" view in games like Warcraft,
over the real world.)
- Gordon


>>>>> "J" == James Rogers
writes:
J> ...  The part that makes the app killer is that you can map all
J> sorts of data layers on top of their core topological data.
J> Got it?
Ah, ok ... so some sample applications come to mind, although none of
them require wireless and would do with a DVD, but nonetheless ...
- Forestry: Maps of the terrain are essential in predicting the spread
of forest fires, esp if this is overlaid with the type of vegetation,
recent waterfall &c
- farming/conservation can use the high-resolution terrain to overlay
water tables or watershed info.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


On 8 Sep 2002 at 22:15, Geege Schuman wrote:
> who watched Lathe of Heaven?  (A&E, 8 pm EDT)  who has seen
> the original?
>
By "original" if you are referring to the old PBS version, I liked that version much better.  Much more thought provoking.


On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, CDale wrote:
> I agree w/ ya Tom.  That kind of thinking is SO idiotic.  Sure, gays
So how many of your hetero friends had >3 k lovers?
> are promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more
> AIDSphobic than hets, generally speaking....
The virus load issue is orthogonal to the fact. Bzzt. Switch on your
brain, you both. I was mentioning that a subpopulation outside of the sex
industry is/used to be extremely promiscuous, about two orders of
magnitude higher than average.


Agreed, completely.  I totally grokked the notion of unintened consequence
with the original.
-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of John
Evdemon
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:03 AM
To: Fork@xent.com
Subject: Re: Recommended Viewing
On 8 Sep 2002 at 22:15, Geege Schuman wrote:
> who watched Lathe of Heaven?  (A&E, 8 pm EDT)  who has seen
> the original?
>
By "original" if you are referring to the old PBS version, I liked that
version much better.  Much more thought provoking.


ok i read back, thats not a typo, you mean three thousand lovers.
where do you get your data? It seems very unlikely, but if you have
supporting evidence i'd like to see it.
Chris
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, CDale wrote:
>
> > I agree w/ ya Tom.  That kind of thinking is SO idiotic.  Sure, gays
>
> So how many of your hetero friends had >3 k lovers?
>
> > are promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more
> > AIDSphobic than hets, generally speaking....
>
> The virus load issue is orthogonal to the fact. Bzzt. Switch on your
> brain, you both. I was mentioning that a subpopulation outside of the sex
> industry is/used to be extremely promiscuous, about two orders of
> magnitude higher than average.
>
>
>


On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Chris Haun wrote:
> ok i read back, thats not a typo, you mean three thousand lovers.
> where do you get your data? It seems very unlikely, but if you have
> supporting evidence i'd like to see it.
I haven't seen any official data on the web (the high-ranking hits are
overrun by religious bigots), but there's some anecdotal evidence to be
found in

(search for promiscuity). They mention 300 to 500 partners a year.
(Anecdotally. This is not a statistic). They also mention that this was
specific to gay males. Lesbians don't dig promiscuity in that degree.


EL> On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, CDale wrote:
>> I agree w/ ya Tom.  That kind of thinking is SO idiotic.  Sure, gays
EL> So how many of your hetero friends had >3 k lovers?
So Eugen, how many of your homo friends have -had- 3k lovers?
In fact, thats a general question for FoRK proper.
Do you know anyone, outside of meybee Wilt Chamberlin and a few of the
gang-bang porn queens who -have- had even 1.5k lovers?
Eegads, if you're hypothesizing numbers like -that- Eugen, you at
least owe it to FoRK to back that shit up.
Otherwise we're liable to assume rampant unfounded homophobia and that
would just be a lose.
Just a quick assumption here.   I'm not a math geek or anything, but
assuming 1 lover every day, that would be like at least one lover
everyday for 8 years and some change.   I don't know about you, but
very very few of us are -that- lucky (or even close to that lucky)
and after awhile, even the sexaholics get bored and have to mingle
something new into their weekends.   You really are assumiing that the
homosexual population is a) that large in a given area (The meccas
might qualify, but try finding that kind of homosexual population in
say, Tulsa, Oklahoma or Manchester, NH (Tho Manchester does have quite
a few nifty gaybars, but thats a different story)  b) that bored/sex
obsessed/recreationally free to pursue sex that often, with that many
partners or that they'd even WANT that many partners.
Qualify yourself, or at least lower your outrageous numbers.
=BB
>> are promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more
>> AIDSphobic than hets, generally speaking....
EL> The virus load issue is orthogonal to the fact. Bzzt. Switch on your
EL> brain, you both. I was mentioning that a subpopulation outside of the sex
EL> industry is/used to be extremely promiscuous, about two orders of
EL> magnitude higher than average.
--
Best regards,
bitbitch                            mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net


In addition, one bit of anecdotal evidence from a conversation in
1984! in San Fransisco is hardly enough to extrapolate 500 to 3k.
This is the only quote I could find relating to promiscuity in
homosexual men.
"I think people feel a certain invulnerability, especially young
people, like this disease doesn't affect me. The publicity about the disease was very much the kind where it was easy to say, "That isn't me. I'm not promiscuous." Promiscuity, especially, was a piece where people could easily say, "Well, I'm not. Promiscuous is more than I do." If you have 300 partners a year, you can think you're not promiscuous if you know somebody who has 500. So it's all relative, and it was easy to feel that that isn't me."
You could find hets who have the same kind of partner volume.  BFD.
This kind of random generation of numbers that leads the nutty
religious bigots (as you mentioned earlier).
Grr.   Bits damnit.  Now, I must go brief.
-BB
EL>> On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, CDale wrote:
>>> I agree w/ ya Tom.  That kind of thinking is SO idiotic.  Sure, gays
EL>> So how many of your hetero friends had >3 k lovers?
bmn> So Eugen, how many of your homo friends have -had- 3k lovers?
bmn> In fact, thats a general question for FoRK proper.
bmn> Do you know anyone, outside of meybee Wilt Chamberlin and a few of the
bmn> gang-bang porn queens who -have- had even 1.5k lovers?
bmn> Eegads, if you're hypothesizing numbers like -that- Eugen, you at
bmn> least owe it to FoRK to back that shit up.
bmn> Otherwise we're liable to assume rampant unfounded homophobia and that
bmn> would just be a lose.
bmn> Just a quick assumption here.   I'm not a math geek or anything, but
bmn> assuming 1 lover every day, that would be like at least one lover
bmn> everyday for 8 years and some change.   I don't know about you, but
bmn> very very few of us are -that- lucky (or even close to that lucky)
bmn> and after awhile, even the sexaholics get bored and have to mingle
bmn> something new into their weekends.   You really are assumiing that the
bmn> homosexual population is a) that large in a given area (The meccas
bmn> might qualify, but try finding that kind of homosexual population in
bmn> say, Tulsa, Oklahoma or Manchester, NH (Tho Manchester does have quite
bmn> a few nifty gaybars, but thats a different story)  b) that bored/sex
bmn> obsessed/recreationally free to pursue sex that often, with that many
bmn> partners or that they'd even WANT that many partners.
bmn> Qualify yourself, or at least lower your outrageous numbers.
bmn> =BB
>>> are promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more
>>> AIDSphobic than hets, generally speaking....
EL>> The virus load issue is orthogonal to the fact. Bzzt. Switch on your
EL>> brain, you both. I was mentioning that a subpopulation outside of the sex
EL>> industry is/used to be extremely promiscuous, about two orders of
EL>> magnitude higher than average.
--
Best regards,
bitbitch                            mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net


> So Eugen, how many of your homo friends have -had- 3k lovers?
>
> In fact, thats a general question for FoRK proper.
Uh, zero.  I'm sort of offended at having to take this question seriously,
like being black and having to actually explain that black people don't
all sing and dance.  I'd guess that gay men compared to straight men have
a linearly greater number of sexual partners on the order of 1.5-2X.  But
then again, it not a monolithic or homogeneous community.  Who knows?
3K is utter shite.
- Lucas


On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, Gordon Mohr wrote:
--]Gary Lawrence Murphy cynicizes:
--]> Hmmm, just as I thought.  In other words, it has no practical uses
--]> whatsoever ;)
--]
--]Online gaming continues to grow. Screw "Britannia",
--]real-life Britain would be a fun world to wander/
--]conquer/explore virtually, in role-playing or real-
--]time-strategy games.
Andthus....Geocaching.....this would make a nice little "let me check this
set of coord out before we trek into 10 feet of quicksand"


On Mon, 9 Sep 2002 bitbitch@magnesium.net wrote:
> So Eugen, how many of your homo friends have -had- 3k lovers?
Just one. Not everybody does that. Most of them are now dead, anyway.
> Do you know anyone, outside of meybee Wilt Chamberlin and a few of the
> gang-bang porn queens who -have- had even 1.5k lovers?
Yes. Notice that I've specifically excluded sex industry. That be
cheating.
> Eegads, if you're hypothesizing numbers like -that- Eugen, you at
> least owe it to FoRK to back that shit up.
Ain't done no hypothesizing. Anecdotal evidence'R'Us. Couldn't you just
Google, or something?
> Otherwise we're liable to assume rampant unfounded homophobia and that
> would just be a lose.
Yeah, I'm a gay Jew Nazi Muslim who's also a lead character on Kaz's
underworld. Can we go on with the programme now?
> Just a quick assumption here.   I'm not a math geek or anything, but
> assuming 1 lover every day, that would be like at least one lover
> everyday for 8 years and some change.   I don't know about you, but
> very very few of us are -that- lucky (or even close to that lucky)
Which was my point. Gurls don't do hyperpromiscuity as a life style. It's
interesting that you're launching into a diatribe, and threaten using
instant argument (just add hominem) instead of assuming I might be not
just pulling this whole thing out my nether orifice.
> and after awhile, even the sexaholics get bored and have to mingle
> something new into their weekends.   You really are assumiing that the
> homosexual population is a) that large in a given area (The meccas
You ever been to San Francisco?
> might qualify, but try finding that kind of homosexual population in
> say, Tulsa, Oklahoma or Manchester, NH (Tho Manchester does have quite
Yeah, I think it could be also difficult finding a gay bathhouse in Thule,
Greenland. Or parts of central Africa. To think of it, both Oort and
Kuiper belts are utterly devoid of gay people as well. Isn't this
remarkable?
> a few nifty gaybars, but thats a different story)  b) that bored/sex
> obsessed/recreationally free to pursue sex that often, with that many
> partners or that they'd even WANT that many partners.
This doesn't happen because it couldn't happen. No one would want to.
Because you feel that way. Correct?
> Qualify yourself, or at least lower your outrageous numbers.
I didn't expect so much reflexive knee-jerking on this list.


On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Lucas Gonze wrote:
--]3K is utter shite.
--]
3k is a number that probably sounds good to some closted  homophobe with
secret desires to be "belle of the balls". Twinks dinks and dorks, this
thread sounds to me like someone needs a little luvin.


On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Lucas Gonze wrote:
> a linearly greater number of sexual partners on the order of 1.5-2X.  But
> then again, it not a monolithic or homogeneous community.  Who knows?
Did I claim "all gay people are hyperpromiscuous"? For what this is worth,
I would claim they're considerably more promiscuous on the average than
your average het. My utterly unscientific, unsubstatiated claim is that
the typical male would *like* to be considerably more promiscous than your
average female (ay, and here's the rub. pray don't forget the kleenex).
Look up different reproduction strategies, due to basic hardware
difference (sexual dimorphism). You'd do that too if it happened to you.
Once you go past the first three of four pages of hysterical propaganda on
Google you might actually run into real studies. Anyone game? I have to
work (well, pretend to).
> 3K is utter shite.
This is getting better and better. You know 3K is utter shite how? You
just feel the number can't be right, yes? Deep inside? I'm way overposting
today, but I find this entire exchange hee-lay-rious.


Tom wrote:
> 3k is a number that probably sounds good to some closted  homophobe with
> secret desires to be "belle of the balls". Twinks dinks and dorks, this
> thread sounds to me like someone needs a little luvin.
I dunno if I'd accuse everybody who believes the 3K number of needing a
little luvin, but I completely believe that this myth has survived because
there's a lot of people who need more lovin.  Plus it fits in with a bunch
of different archetypes.
- Lucas


EL> On Mon, 9 Sep 2002 bitbitch@magnesium.net wrote:
>> So Eugen, how many of your homo friends have -had- 3k lovers?
EL> Just one. Not everybody does that. Most of them are now dead, anyway.
Point is, you're not likely to extrapolate much.  I could probably
find one hetero who had just as much sex.   Does that mean we're all
rampant hos?  No.
>> Eegads, if you're hypothesizing numbers like -that- Eugen, you at
>> least owe it to FoRK to back that shit up.
EL> Ain't done no hypothesizing. Anecdotal evidence'R'Us. Couldn't you just
EL> Google, or something?
Listen.  If you pull numbers like that without a fact, the automagic
assumption is yes, they were extracted out of your neither orifice.
Point wasn't to conclude otherwise unless you had any relevant bits.
Its not my job to do _your_ bit searching for you, but I figured I'd
humor fork with this bit of finding:
  (Pointing ot
averages of about 13 for every 3 months (for gay men), which totals to
about  52 a year.  52 a year doesn't equal 3000.   Or even 300.
>> Just a quick assumption here.   I'm not a math geek or anything, but
>> assuming 1 lover every day, that would be like at least one lover
>> everyday for 8 years and some change.   I don't know about you, but
>> very very few of us are -that- lucky (or even close to that lucky)
EL> Which was my point. Gurls don't do hyperpromiscuity as a life style. It's
EL> interesting that you're launching into a diatribe, and threaten using
EL> instant argument (just add hominem) instead of assuming I might be not
EL> just pulling this whole thing out my nether orifice.
WTF do my shitty math skillz have to do with girls and
hyperpromiscuity?  I was speaking -generally- meaning that guys and
girls probably have better things to do than boink everything they
see.  As above, I am assuming you're pulling things out of your ass, I
just felt like calling you on it.
BTW, there's nothing wrong with calling someone on a silly idea.  Its
allowed, and its generally not considered ad hominem, but the
homophobia statement might be.
>> and after awhile, even the sexaholics get bored and have to mingle
>> something new into their weekends.   You really are assumiing that the
>> homosexual population is a) that large in a given area (The meccas
EL> You ever been to San Francisco?
Many times.  Which is why I said 'assuming that large ... (The meccas
dont count).  SF is a mecca in this example.  I obviously wasn't
clear, tho one could assume I wasn't talking about Medina.
>> a few nifty gaybars, but thats a different story)  b) that bored/sex
>> obsessed/recreationally free to pursue sex that often, with that many
>> partners or that they'd even WANT that many partners.
EL> This doesn't happen because it couldn't happen. No one would want to.
EL> Because you feel that way. Correct?
doesn't happen?  true.   Couldn't happen?  who knows.   It has nothing
to do with how I 'feel' and everything to do with the fact that people
do concern themselves with more than just sex (otherwise I think we'd
see a helluva lot more of sex, and a helluva lot less of everything
else).
>> Qualify yourself, or at least lower your outrageous numbers.
EL> I didn't expect so much reflexive knee-jerking on this list.
Well my suggestion is, if you can't take the responses, don't post
flamebait.
--
Best regards,
bitbitch                            mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net


On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, CDale wrote:
>
> > I agree w/ ya Tom.  That kind of thinking is SO idiotic.  Sure, gays
>
> So how many of your hetero friends had >3 k lovers?
None.  How many of my gay friends have had > 3k lovers?  None.
>
> > are promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more
> > AIDSphobic than hets, generally speaking....
>
> The virus load issue is orthogonal to the fact. Bzzt. Switch on your
> brain, you both. I was mentioning that a subpopulation outside of the sex
> industry is/used to be extremely promiscuous, about two orders of
> magnitude higher than average.
two orders of magnitude higher than average isn't 3k, I don't think.  Why
don't ya give us a url or something that told you all this stuff?  Or did
you just pull it out of your ass?  (:
C


> This is getting better and better. You know 3K is utter shite how?
I'm not going to be your spokesman, Eugen.  Figure it out yourself.
over and out.


Bitbitch writes:
> Listen.  If you pull numbers like that without a fact, the automagic
> assumption is yes, they were extracted out of your neither orifice.
> Point wasn't to conclude otherwise unless you had any relevant bits.
> Its not my job to do _your_ bit searching for you, but I figured I'd
> humor fork with this bit of finding:
>
>   (Pointing ot
> averages of about 13 for every 3 months (for gay men), which totals to
> about  52 a year.  52 a year doesn't equal 3000.   Or even 300.
Er, that study would seem to lend credence to Eugen's
estimations, rather than casting fresh doubts.
52 a year *does* exceed 300, in under 6 years' time. The average
age of that study's participants was *39* -- meaning some
participants may have had 20-25+ years of active sex life.
At that age, and further ** HIV+ **, it seems reasonable to
think that some the participants may have actually slowed
their pace a bit.
So while this study's summary info is incomplete, you could
easily conclude that the *average* participant in this one study
will have had over a thousand partners over a 40-50+ year active
sex life, and so the even-more-active tails of the distribution
could easily be in the 3000+ range.
Of course this says very little, almost nothing, about the overall
population behavior, gay or straight, and the relative prevalence
of 3K+ individuals in either group. But it does strongly suggest
that gay males with 3K+ partners exist in measurable numbers, so
people should stop treating Eugen's anecdotal estimation as if it
were sheer fantasy. BitBitch's own citation suggests otherwise.
- Gordon


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Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
Comments:     Authenticated sender is jakobs@i4mail.informatik.rwth-aachen.de
From:         Kai Jakobs
Subject: [CYBERIA] [Final CfP]: Int. J. on IT Standards Research
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Hello,
Just a brief reminder that the deadline for submisisons for issue 2
of the
'International Journal of IT Standards & Standardization Research' (JITSR)
is October 1.
JITSR is a  new, multi-disciplinary publication outlet for everyone who
is doing research into IT standards and standardisation (from whichever
perspective).
So if you think you've got a paper that might fit - why not submit
it for JITSR?
And please do ask if you need any further information.
Greetings from Aachen.
Cheers,
Kai.
-----------------------------
Call for Papers
for Issue 2 of the
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should be understood in a very broad sense.
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If this form of submission is not possible, please send one hardcopy
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Important Dates for the Inaugural Issue:
Submission Deadline for Issue 2:   October 1, 2002
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________________________________________________________________
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--
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'


Just thought i'd pass this on, my favorite radio station in raleigh is
going off the internet due to the new fees and restrictions associated
with remaining online.  this is from the station manager and describes the
situation.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:13:17 -0400
From: Arielle
Subject: RE: KNC Stream [1:51144:51751]
This message was sent from: WKNC Chat.
----------------------------------------------------------------
It does, but it's not the cost that is causing us to shut it down. The cost
is a "minimum $500 per year"... but that only accounts for 18 people
streaming and playing like 13 or 14 songs an hour. But we could maybe manage
the 2 cents per person, per 100 songs.
The problem comes with the record keeping they mandate with webstreaming.
Start and end times for every song (not too hard), artist (okay), title
(okay), composers (a little harder), serial number (wtf??). I think there
are a few more things they wanted, but honestly, programming this info in
for every song that we play is ridiculous. This means we'd also have to get
all the DJs to find this info and write it down any time they play a
request, vinyl, or CDs not loaded into the computer. It's ridiculous and
nearly impossible...
We would need someone to sit in the studio 24/7 writing down all this info -
which sometimes isn't available, like from earlier album that don't have
serial numbers and barcodes. Then still if only the magic 18 people
webstream our signal, the price would become quite exponential since we play
on average 16 songs an hour, we'd be paying $22.11 everyday to stream to
those 18 people. So really, it does have to do with the internet tax, but it
is a few reasons together why we can't do it after their kill-date. :(
----------------------------------------------------------------
Sent using Phorum software version 3.2.6


Here are numbers that come from a study of a couple of thousand swedes, with
no reference to sexual preference that I could find. The point would seem to
be that (1) sexual activity follows a power curve, with a few people, a la
Wilt Chamberlain, having an extaordinarily large number of sexual contacts,
ev en in a short period of time and (2) a tendency for men to have more
partners than women.  I have no idea, being a statistical ignoramus, whether
the fact that there seem to be more men than women at the extremely
promiscuous end of the sex-partners-distribution curve means that you'd get
even more extreme results in a group of men who chiefly have sex with other
men.
~amaral/Sex_partners/Content_sex.html
>
As for gay men: There is indeed anecdotal evidence of cases of extreme
promiscuity among gay men. You can read about it in Randy Schiltz's And the
Band Played On. He writes about  bathhouse culture pre-HIV; he also discusses
how, in the gay politics of the time, there was a sub-culture of what you
might call radical gay men who argued (and acted on the argument) that having
many partners was an essential part of what being gay actually was. It was an
explicitly political statement: monogamy is an artifact of straight culture.
That view seems to have died, in more ways than one. Part of the point of
Schiltz's book was to condemn the role that it and  bathhouse culture played
in spreading the AIDs epidemic that eventually killed Schiltz, among so many
others. This doesn't let Eugen off the hook--but it is accurate to say that
there was a  cult of promiscuity that was particular to the gay community.
Tom


Chris Haun wrote:
>
> We would need someone to sit in the studio 24/7 writing down all this info -
> which sometimes isn't available, like from earlier album that don't have
> serial numbers and barcodes. Then still if only the magic 18 people
> webstream our signal, the price would become quite exponential since we play
> on average 16 songs an hour, we'd be paying $22.11 everyday to stream to
> those 18 people. So really, it does have to do with the internet tax, but it
> is a few reasons together why we can't do it after their kill-date. :(
Who is John Galt?
(RoUS in the throes of reading Atlas Shrugged again)
--
#ken	P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini
Author, developer, opinionist
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


At 8:16 AM -0700 on 9/9/02, Gordon Mohr wrote:
> Of course this says very little, almost nothing, about the overall
> population behavior, gay or straight, and the relative prevalence
> of 3K+ individuals in either group. But it does strongly suggest
> that gay males with 3K+ partners exist in measurable numbers, so
> people should stop treating Eugen's anecdotal estimation as if it
> were sheer fantasy. BitBitch's own citation suggests otherwise.
That math stuff's, a, um, bitch, i'nit?
;-)
Cheers,
RAH
[Who could care less who boinks whom, or for how much, though watching the
Righteous Anger(tm) around here this morning *has* been amusing...]
--
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'


Why so fast?  Normal terminal velocity is much slower.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com  On Behalf Of
> bitbitch@magnesium.net
> Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 8:36 AM
> To: (Robert Harley)
> Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
> Subject: Re: The Big Jump
>
>
>
> So uh, would this qualify for the Darwin awards if he doesn't make it?
>
> Freaking french people...
>    :-)
> -BB
> RH> Today a French officer called Michel Fournier is supposed to get
in a
> RH> 350-metre tall helium balloon, ride it up to the edge of space (40
km
> RH> altitude) and jump out.  His fall should last 6.5 minutes and
reach
> RH> speeds of Mach 1.5.  He hopes to open his parachute manually at
the
> RH> end, although with an automatic backup if he is 7 seconds from the
> RH> ground and still hasn't opened it.
>
> RH> R
>
> RH> ObQuote:
> RH>   "Vederò, si averò si grossi li coglioni, come ha il re di
Franza."
> RH>   ("Let's see if I've got as much balls as the King of France!")
> RH>   - Pope Julius II, 2 January 1511
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  bitbitch                            mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net


Isn't this the story where someone's "Dream" has the ability to change
reality -- then you find the whole world is their dream?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com  On Behalf Of
Geege
> Schuman
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:26 AM
> To: John Evdemon
> Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
> Subject: RE: Recommended Viewing
>
> Agreed, completely.  I totally grokked the notion of unintened
consequence
> with the original.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of
John
> Evdemon
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:03 AM
> To: Fork@xent.com
> Subject: Re: Recommended Viewing
>
>
> On 8 Sep 2002 at 22:15, Geege Schuman wrote:
>
> > who watched Lathe of Heaven?  (A&E, 8 pm EDT)  who has seen
> > the original?
> >
> By "original" if you are referring to the old PBS version, I liked
that
> version much better.  Much more thought provoking.
>
>
>


John Hall wrote:
>Why so fast?  Normal terminal velocity is much slower.
>
>
Not at 40,000 m. I found this article
( :
"The last person to try to break the highest free fall record died in
the attempt. In 1965, New Jersey truck driver Nick Piantanida suffered
catastrophic equipment failure when his facemask blew out at 57,000
feet. Lack of oxygen caused such severe brain damage that he went into a
coma and died four months later."
And in amongst the flash at

you can discover that he will break the sound barrier at 35,000 m,
presumably reaching top speed somewhere above 30,000.
Owen
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: fork-admin@xent.com  On Behalf Of
>>bitbitch@magnesium.net
>>Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 8:36 AM
>>To: (Robert Harley)
>>Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
>>Subject: Re: The Big Jump
>>
>>
>>
>>So uh, would this qualify for the Darwin awards if he doesn't make it?
>>
>>Freaking french people...
>>   :-)
>>-BB
>>RH> Today a French officer called Michel Fournier is supposed to get
>>
>>
>in a
>
>
>>RH> 350-metre tall helium balloon, ride it up to the edge of space (40
>>
>>
>km
>
>
>>RH> altitude) and jump out.  His fall should last 6.5 minutes and
>>
>>
>reach
>
>
>>RH> speeds of Mach 1.5.  He hopes to open his parachute manually at
>>
>>
>the
>
>
>>RH> end, although with an automatic backup if he is 7 seconds from the
>>RH> ground and still hasn't opened it.
>>
>>RH> R
>>
>>RH> ObQuote:
>>RH>   "Vederò, si averò si grossi li coglioni, come ha il re di
>>
>>
>Franza."
>
>
>>RH>   ("Let's see if I've got as much balls as the King of France!")
>>RH>   - Pope Julius II, 2 January 1511
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Best regards,
>> bitbitch                            mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 11:01:22AM -0700, John Hall wrote:
> Why so fast?  Normal terminal velocity is much slower.
Terminal velocity can be calculated by $v_{T} = \sqrt{\frac{2mg}{CpA}}$
where C is an experimentally determined coefficient, p is the density of the
air, and A is the area of the object. These calculations only work if the
object is blunt and the airflow is turbulent, blah blah blah. Terminal velocity
for a skydiver actually varies with how the diver holds themselves -- you go
faster if you pull yourself into a cannonball. That is the "A", for the
most part.
All else being equal, the terminal velocity is inversely proportional to the
square root of air density. Air density drops off pretty quickly, and I
really should be doing something other than digging up the math for that. I
think it involves calculus to integrate the amount of mass as the column of
the atmosphere trails off. I grabbed the other stuff directly out of a book :).
In '87 a guy named Gregory Robertson noticed a fellow parachutist Debbie
Williams had been knocked unconscious. He shifted so that he was head down,
hit about 200 mi/h, and caught up with her and pulled her chute with 10 seconds
to spare.
--
njl


more accurately: someone's dream changes reality for everyone, and
everyone's memory adjusts to perceive the new realities as a continuum,
replete with new pasts and new memories.
ever have dreams that "create" their own history to make their irrealities
plausible and authentic feeling?
ever notice how the feelings evoked in some dreams stick with you all day?
i'm sure it's some neurochemical process initiated during the dream that is
still cycling thru - like a deja vu, triggered by memory processes, where
you don't actually remember but you feel like you're remembering.
ggggggggg
-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of John
Hall
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 2:03 PM
To: FoRK
Subject: RE: Recommended Viewing
Isn't this the story where someone's "Dream" has the ability to change
reality -- then you find the whole world is their dream?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com  On Behalf Of
Geege
> Schuman
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:26 AM
> To: John Evdemon
> Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
> Subject: RE: Recommended Viewing
>
> Agreed, completely.  I totally grokked the notion of unintened
consequence
> with the original.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com On Behalf Of
John
> Evdemon
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:03 AM
> To: Fork@xent.com
> Subject: Re: Recommended Viewing
>
>
> On 8 Sep 2002 at 22:15, Geege Schuman wrote:
>
> > who watched Lathe of Heaven?  (A&E, 8 pm EDT)  who has seen
> > the original?
> >
> By "original" if you are referring to the old PBS version, I liked
that
> version much better.  Much more thought provoking.
>
>
>


On Monday 09 September 2002 09:51 pm, Geege Schuman wrote
> ever notice how the feelings evoked in some dreams stick with you all
> day?i'm sure it's some neurochemical process initiated during the dream
> that is still cycling thru - like a deja vu, triggered by memory
> processes, where > you don't actually remember but you feel like you're
> remembering.
Absolutely, and I've wanted to recapture it.  I've done some writing based
on dreams, and there is a mysterious "mood" to that feeling that drives
some creative stuff for me.  I've never tried to write music in that
state, but I will next time.
Eirikur


Any of your writing online anywhere?  Would love to take a look.  I was
plagued with night terrors for years and tried to capture that feeling
after waking up (if you want to call that waking up), but was never able
to...
Cindy
On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Eirikur Hallgrimsson wrote:
> On Monday 09 September 2002 09:51 pm, Geege Schuman wrote
> > ever notice how the feelings evoked in some dreams stick with you all
> > day?i'm sure it's some neurochemical process initiated during the dream
> > that is still cycling thru - like a deja vu, triggered by memory
> > processes, where > you don't actually remember but you feel like you're
> > remembering.
>
> Absolutely, and I've wanted to recapture it.  I've done some writing based
> on dreams, and there is a mysterious "mood" to that feeling that drives
> some creative stuff for me.  I've never tried to write music in that
> state, but I will next time.
>
> Eirikur
>
>
>
--
"I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn


>>>>> "G" == Geege Schuman
writes:
G> ...  i'm sure it's some neurochemical process initiated during
G> the dream that is still cycling thru - like a deja vu,
G> triggered by memory processes, where you don't actually
G> remember but you feel like you're remembering.
That's very perceptive of you.  Many people are not so willing to
accept their personal reality as skewed by their neuro-physiology.  A
great many popular con games exist by exploiting the perceptions of
these states.
Another oft-exploited neuro-plausibility: The brain is a pretty darn
fine analog associative computer, so it could be the neurochemical
events during the dream have associated themselves with some inner or
external cue to mentally _recreate_ the state-perception like the
predictable tone on striking a bell.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


>>>>> "E" == Eirikur Hallgrimsson
writes:
E> Absolutely, and I've wanted to recapture it.
I don't know about this /particular/ mood, but I have used
neuro-conditioning with aiding children in stressful
life-circumstances.
Basically, you somehow evoke the state you want, and when you get it,
you do something odd, anything at all will do, but I used a gentle
"vulcan grip" on their shoulder.  Later, when faced with the
uncomfortable situation, you can retrieve /part/ of that earlier more
desireable state by giving them the pinch; it's not perfect (like you
get with simpler brains) but it is an inescapable effect.
This is probably the neuro-effect that leads to performance-enhancing
superstitions such as Bob Dylan not performing without his favourite
jean jacket: Because it provides the cue to a more relaxed mental
state, he really does play better with it than without it.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


Well, for one, it would free up the similar laptop I already got to
just run Amithlon (or if that wasn't so fun, bsd) to run just OpenBSD!
This is a near-term thing I could look forward to!
However, an 'official' laptop seems unexciting to me with only
the items mentioned.  Most important are the particulars distinguishing
the listed spec from a Dell 2650, preferably:
1- GeForce4 440 Go or newer, pleasingly modern GPU; the
GeForce2Go (with 16MB video RAM; too little) I have is
not so much too slow as inefficient; with factory settings it would
actually crash from running too hot and too fast.
(Accelerating the Ami* and possibly OpenUAE graphics
is a necessity to meet for good speed in those environments,
but an energy-efficient GPU is a good sideeffect and
portability (read: battery lifetime) enabler.)
1.5- Great control over CPU state; by use of 'internet keys'
wired to BIOS/bhipset routines directly or preferably a scroll
wheel.  Also, hibernate that works, please.
1.7- Bootable to USB 2.0 drives (e.g. larger external ones)
in BIOS, please.
2- P4 Dells overheat.  They have a big heatsink and a little fan
to pull air through it, and if you don't elevate thelaptop off
the desk or table or bed it's on, the fan will -stay- on.  Not good
for MTBS (mean time between service; unless you've got an
angle on making money on service from Amigans.....)
One excellent solution is to include a heatpipe which runs
behind the AMLCD, thus using the backside of the display
half as a radiator.; though it interferes with the case notion
below.  (yes, Aavid or such makes some as a standard part.)
I prefer to include the heatpipe but employ the radiative
mass in elevating the laptop (i.e. in the form of a catch-handle
and second logo device behind the laptop, which generally
provides stow and attachment for elevation legs (move them
out farther to get to the next-higher ekevation, until the sides
of the laptop are met.)  This also happens to provide a little
protection for USB 2  and 1394 cables that I tend to keep
plugged in all the time (a bit longer port life? Please.)
3- A case color other than brown or black, and preferably (if the
display module NRE is entirely permissive) the capability to
-run with the backlight off.-  Again, to save battery power, but
also as a feature; maybe you remember the iBooks modified
in this manner.  The user has the privilege to pull out the
backlight diffuser and fiberoptic lightpipe/CF assembly, with
its backreflector, and the whole warrantee.  This provides
for excellent outdoor use, often with the diffuser reinserted
to keep depth-of-field distractions minimised.
What would I like?  A1200 putty color, any translucency,
in or over a rosewood-colored (in KDE color browser, I see
chocolate, firebrick and a couple of 'indian red' that are great
candidates) base.
I would also like to be able to at least turn off the backlight
without closing the lid, and to be -able- to fit an -external-
light source such as a UV-filtered solar collector (and glare
hood) to feed
into the backlight.  Not only does this make an excellent
color environment but lets one work outdoors tolerably.
The logo should be a coloration of a
minimal surface, as the MAA is trying to get me to renew
with:  demos at
at first blush.  We'll see what comes out of the contest and
maybe you'll like the mapping MathCAD does of the
logo to a minimal surface or manifold that reflects the
openness of AmigaOS, Ami* and Amiga community.
MAA.org has more references, I'm sure.
4- Obviously Elfin details., e,g, the backlight inlet.
Other details:
USB2.x preferred; FireWire would be needed if that's unavailable.
Options like 802.11b or attabhable WiFi hub for ethernet port
should round out the offering.  An option for just-released
.13 micron P4 (with mobile power features) could make more
reviewers greenlight the series; much better power consumption,
and almost certainly a higher a top clock come with that.
CompactFlash, SmartMedia and MMC flash memory card
interfaces would be very pleasant.  I've mentioned booting to
USB, and booting from CF would be a pleasant extigency also.
To that end, a backup solution with compression using
USB 2 storage or the multimode drive is always a nice
bundle item; that or a chance to back out a patch under 3 OS.....
Blue skies (and clear water and fresh air):
Waterproof to 30 feet, 3 Ethernet ports plus onboard WiFi.
Svelte; 3-line frontpanel LCD and bright red pager LED,
builtin G4 cellphone functions, choice of side and
frontpanel trim: Ivory-like stuff inscribed with M68k memory map
and various OS 3.9 structures or textured fur that
says 'This is Amiga Speaking' when stroked 'round.
Decent keyboard, as in Toshiba or IBM laptops; perhaps
an ergonomic fingerworks.com device (they work as
keyboard and mouse) as the keyboard/trackpad.
2 Directional planar mics atop AMLCD; soundcard with multiple
18 bit A-D and noise reduction DSP that work in our
(second-through-fourth, at least) favorite OS.
Actual 7" bellows pulls out at nominal ventilation
fan location for real void-comp (the test in Blade
Runner) style cooling and extended bass; active cooling
and airfiltering is available to adjust humidity at user
seat and provide mineral water.
HyperTransport ports.


On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Ned Jackson Lovely wrote:
> In '87 a guy named Gregory Robertson noticed a fellow parachutist Debbie
> Williams had been knocked unconscious. He shifted so that he was head down,
> hit about 200 mi/h, and caught up with her and pulled her chute with 10 seconds
> to spare.
IIRC it's ~180 km/s spreadeagled and ~210 km/h head-down.


you meant "SURPRISINGLY perceptive," didn't you?  :-)
recent exceptionally vivid and strange dreams lead me to believe i'm
sparking synapses that have lain dormant lo these many years.  Lots of
problem solving going on up there at night.
-----Original Message-----
From: garym@maya.dyndns.org On Behalf Of
Gary Lawrence Murphy
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 11:16 PM
To: Geege Schuman
Cc: johnhall@evergo.net; FoRK
Subject: Re: Recommended Viewing
>>>>> "G" == Geege Schuman
writes:
G> ...  i'm sure it's some neurochemical process initiated during
G> the dream that is still cycling thru - like a deja vu,
G> triggered by memory processes, where you don't actually
G> remember but you feel like you're remembering.
That's very perceptive of you.  Many people are not so willing to
accept their personal reality as skewed by their neuro-physiology.  A
great many popular con games exist by exploiting the perceptions of
these states.
Another oft-exploited neuro-plausibility: The brain is a pretty darn
fine analog associative computer, so it could be the neurochemical
events during the dream have associated themselves with some inner or
external cue to mentally _recreate_ the state-perception like the
predictable tone on striking a bell.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


Gordon Mohr:
>It was clear you were talking about averages. But it should
>be equally clear that that isn't what people mean when they
>use the word "promiscuity".
Sigh.
This sprung out of a report linked by Cindy about the promiscuity of
female monkeys with males other than the alpha male, i.e, specifically
not the tail end of the distribution.  "By mating with as many
extra-group males as possible, female langurs ensure [etc.]"
>OK, then. Consider a population of 1,000,000. 500,000 men each
>pair off with 500,000 women. Then, 1 man, let's call him "Wilt",
>also has sex with the other 499,999 women
This has never happened.  Its relevance is nil.
>Averages are useful, sure -- but much more so if called by their
>actual name, rather than conflated with another concept.
So I chose not to type "on average" explicitly in my post, since this
is FoRK and one tends to assume that people have a clue.
There is no disagreement between us, except that I am more interested
in typical behaviour and you in extreme.  Actually, you probably just
had a bad day and felt like jumping down my throat for the hell of it.
EOT, AFAIC.
R


>>>>> "G" == Geege Schuman
writes:
G> you meant "SURPRISINGLY perceptive," didn't you?  :-)
Of course, dear.  Especially without zazen training.  Veritably
Operational Thetan-like.
G> recent exceptionally vivid and strange dreams lead me to
G> believe i'm sparking synapses that have lain dormant lo these
G> many years.  Lots of problem solving going on up there at
G> night.
It's a myth that we don't use parts of our brain.  We use it all,
always.  It's just that our culturally-induced focal-point causes most
of us to most of the time ignore and waste 99.999% of it.  "Lucid" is
a measure of notch-filter bandwidth; all stations are broadcasting,
but we only /choose/ Easy Rock 105.
For example, don't look now but your shoes are full of feet.
The sensation of toes the above statement evokes is not a "turning on"
of circuits, it is a "tuning in".  The next step, of course, is to
"drop out" :)
To paraphrase an old saw: Life is wasted on the living.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy
TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Advantage through Community Software :
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)


On 10 Sep 2002, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:
--]It's a myth that we don't use parts of our brain.  We use it all,
--]always.  It's just that our culturally-induced focal-point causes most
--]of us to most of the time ignore and waste 99.999% of it.  "Lucid" is
--]a measure of notch-filter bandwidth; all stations are broadcasting,
--]but we only /choose/ Easy Rock 105.
--]
--]For example, don't look now but your shoes are full of feet.
Nice imagery. When the filters come down ( choose your method)it is very
much the case. Not  only are your shoes full of toes, but your toes are
full of bones, blood , muscle and toejam. All these things are
evident...unless you got your  filters up.
Life, the ultimate spam:)-
-tom