KEY
Bold:		Interviewer
Regular:		Respondent
Italics:		Respondent’s husband
[ ]:		Uncertain word(s)

Hi [anonymised], how are you?
I’m good thank you.  I was on a Skype meeting with the US with another colleague of mine.
Thanks very much for lending us your time.
That’s all right.  You said you need more people, did you mean from the EU or from the US and Canada as well?
We’ve got a few people from the US and Canada as well so if you have any suggestions that would be really good.
As teachers, is that what you’re looking for?
At the moment we’re concentrating on teachers.
I was a primary school teacher until two years ago, and I left two years ago, I moved to [ANONYMISED], to university, so that’s okay?
That’s fine, great.  Could I ask if you can just tilt your screen or camera a little bit down because I’m missing part of your face.  We don’t have to obviously maintain the video the whole time.
I can't see myself for some reason.  
That’s perfect, fantastic.  Good.  Before we start, I’ll just run through a quick explanation for you as a reminder of what we’re doing and why and so forth.  Then we’ll start the actual interview.  First of all I must say I’m just getting quite a lot of audio return in my speakers, I think it’s okay now, yes.  We’re bound to have these technical problems I think.
First of all, I must remind me that we’re recording the interviews, audio recording, and they’re going to be transcribed.  I’m already recording so is that all right?
That’s fine.
I’m missing your audio unfortunately.
I said that’s fine, can you hear me? 
Not very loudly unfortunately, it’s fairly faint.
Perhaps it’s the connection?
It could be because I’m getting a bit of cut out but these things happen.  We’ll see how it goes.  I might have to – apologies if I have to ask you to repeat things if I don’t get the audio signal.
That’s fine.
So we’re recording these interviews in this round mainly with teachers to get their views on games, games in education, games in society generally.  So both professionally and also on a personal basis.  We’re recording the interviews, they’ll be transcribed, but everything will be anonymous, so all references to names, institutions and so forth will be removed.  But feel free to make those, actually that’s fine, we’ll just take them out afterwards.
It’s going to last about forty-five minutes or so, is that fine?
That’s fine.  I’ve booked myself time until one.
Fantastic, thanks.  How we’ll work the interview is this, we actually have a number of general topics that we’re asking people about, there are about six general topics.  As we go through the interview I’ll run you through those.  And I’m actually going to show you some slides with the name of the topic on it so we know where we are.  For each of these topics you’ll see the name of that topic.  
When we’ve discussed it a bit at let’s say the concluding part of that topic I’m going to show the same slide but with some key words related to that topic.  These are things that have been mentioned in the course of the research we’ve been doing in these areas.  We’ll just look at them together and see what mention you have or have not made of those areas and we can decide if you want to say some more about the different topics that you’ll see.  There will be about six of these successions of different topics.  I’ll speak you through those as we go.
One more important thing I think to know is that you’re free to handle the interview as you like, so you’re free to take as much time as you want to answer a question or a comment, we’re not doing a TV interview so there’s no rush for time.  You’re free to ask me to stop, to interrupt me, to ask for clarification or if something’s not clear to you that’s fine.  You’re also very free not to respond to any of the things that I mention, it’s totally free to you.  At the end of the interview I’ll give you some space to add extra things if you think there’s things you want to add or change or correct or comments you want to make about the interview itself.  Is that pretty much clear to you now?
I’m fine.
I’m missing your audio again.
That’s fine.  Can you hear?
Yes, okay.  Let’s see how we go.  What I’ll do now is bring up that first topic that I mentioned to you.  You’ll see it come up hopefully on the slide.  Can you see, games and you, that’s it.  So [anonymised], first of all I’d like you just to introduce yourself if you can.  Say who you are, where you’re from, what you do, and then talk a little bit about your experience, professional or personal, with games.
I’m [anonymised], I’m based in London, in the UK.  At the moment I’m working at [anonymised], in the Computing department.  And until two years I worked as a class teacher and ICT coordinator in inner city schools in London for twelve years.  So games and me, that’s a tricky one, because I did not know about games until I became a teacher.  And I’m thinking about digital games in this sense, is that all right?  I’m thinking of computer games?
Exactly.
I’m originally from Turkey and I did not see a computer until I arrived to UK in 1999.  So I had no experience of digital games or computers or technology.  The technology that I knew was TV and the fridge.  When I came to England I did a coding course, I learnt how to make websites and java applet and that is how I met with games, I started making simple games.  Then I learnt plus and made some more games.  But I think the main way I met with games was when I was an ICT coordinator we bought iPod Touchs.  And I decided to try some Maths games with my students.  I could see that they were going mad for it and I don’t know why but those tiny screens seemed to engage them better than how I taught on the interactive white board.  
And I asked children, “Why are you going so mad about this tiny, small screens and silly games?”  And one of them said something quite interesting, he said, “You can touch your learning.”  So I put that interaction that they had, by touching the characters when they were playing Maths games.  And also one of them said, “Because you don’t feel like you’re learning, you’re playing games,” so that learning without realisation seems to appear.  So that is how I met with games.  Using games in the school. 
Then I have a son who is sixteen obsessed with games and I met through those commercial games I would say through him.  Also I always hear about it from my students when I was working in primary school because when Call of Duty comes out none of my boys comes to school.  They stay at home and I know that there is a big game came out.  I learn from them, I learn from my son and tried to make sense of it basically and how I can link to my teaching those games.
That’s really interesting.  Just taking you back, where you were talking about the experience with the iPod Touch and Maths, this is with the primary school?
It’s primary, nine and ten year olds.  I did a paper on that as well and I was a teacher then and I published in  a conference.  It was part of my Masters as well, I wanted to see whether there was a value of using games.  I’m using it, but is there a value in it, so I wanted to do some reading on it and make sense of it.  For me I don’t like just using things, I have to make sense of whether it really has impact on number one, children’s learning, but number two, on my teaching as well.  You know, if there isn't a value then I don’t want to use it.
So I did a survey with these nine and ten year olds on Maths games that we used.  Interesting results.  I don’t know why but it seems like the most important thing is they like the fact that they don’t have to listen to a teacher.  They like the fact that they are the one who is in control when they are playing that game.  And if they want to move to the next level they can, they don’t have to wait someone to bring an extension sheet for them. I think that was quite interesting.  But the most interesting one is when the boy said, “You can touch your learning,” I thought that was very fascinating, that interaction is something that they are not really getting from a teacher, isn't it?
Indeed, yes, that’s really interesting.  You mentioned two different sorts of games, those I imagine casual Maths games I guess designed for Maths learning, and you also mentioned the other commercial games like Call of Duty and so forth.  In the second group, have you had any experience of using those in your teaching as well?
Not the commercial games in the school.  Number one, we did not have XBox or Playstation.  And some of them I think come on the PC but the thing is the games that are created for commercial reasons, quite a few of them has violence in them.  You have to be very careful before using these games in schools, you don’t want to get the reaction of the parents or your Headteacher.  And I may not be able to show the educational value of that game.  I know the children solve problems within those games and all sorts of things, but I cannot explain how that actually educationally is important.  We did not use it.  
We did use games such as Machineers which was created by a lovely friend from Denmark, Henrike Lode.  She created this game to teach children about gears.  And so it was a problem solving and that is one of the fascinating things, we trialled that game for her and she came from Denmark to our school to discuss with my students what they thought.  That was interesting because in the game you can only be a girl.  The character is only female.  My boys, being very boyish boys, where my school was based, that’s quite interesting, because my school was based in Edmonton.  That means most of my children were EAL, refugees, immigrants, so they’re not English speakers.  And we had quite a high population of Muslim children.  
They did not like this fact that they can only be female.  The boys said to her, “Why did you not put a boy character and let us choose?”  And I heard this on the interviews, it’s quite interesting, their arguments.  And she said, “Well, it’s my game, this is how I created it, and this is how I want it.”  So the boys said – one of them got really cross, “If it’s your game and you created it, sit and play yourself then.”  (Laughs)  So the expectations is quite high.
And there was another game I used created by Professor Andrew Burn and it was called Missionmakers.  That was game playing and game making at the same time and it has violence in it.  And when I used children’s faces changed because they could not believe that I let them play with a game that actually allows them kill.  Because you could kill, you are gangsters, there’s big gangs and things but at the same thing you’re learning to make codes using Java.  But they find that quite interesting that I let them do that.  But then the game did not become very popular in the UK because of that feature.
Was that I imagine something that you considered very carefully before you proposed this game, this aspect of violence?
I had to but I tried to show it to my Headteacher about the coding side of it, which allowed them to develop their programming skills.  But then I also said because it’s fantasy characters hopefully the children will understand that these are not real characters, these are fantasy and the setting was fantasy as well, so hopefully they will understand that this is not a real place, not real characters. 
I think they have now created a Viking version of that and they are trialling it where you can – the background is Vikings time, Viking characters, I think they are telling the story of what was it, Beowulf?
Beowulf, yes.
I haven't tried that one yet but I think they developed it to that stage now.  It hasn’t became very popular or used widely in schools like Scratch or Alice, it was only used by those who were involved in the kind of research part of it, the schools did not show any interest in it.
Why do you think that is?
I really think they can't justify the violence.  Because there is such negative thoughts around gaming and violence and there is some research comes up with it says games encourage children to become more aggressive.  There is also media, like that guy in Germany shoots people at the airport and said before he shoot he was playing for six, seven hours Call of Duty or something.  So they are always trying to link the unwanted behaviour, the violent behaviour to technology or game playing.  There is a kind of negativity towards games I would say.  In some countries more.  I think in Europe it’s more than America really.
You mentioned a couple of times you having to explain perhaps to advocate to parents, to school heads, to the kids themselves, do you feel that’s something that you’re often put in that position of using games, of having to explain and advocate?
I think you do, exactly.  Because if I’m using games specifically designed for learning then there’s no problem.  But if I’m using games that has some elements that maybe parents are not so happy, even the children when they are playing at home, and if I admit that in school then I kind of have to make them understand that I am using it because…  I need to justify it to Headteachers, I have to justify to governors and the parents.  So you have three different audiences you have to justify.
The same thing happened with Minecraft.  When Minecraft came we were the first school in the UK who had Minecraft.  I had to justify what would I do with that programme, because one, you’re spending on it, number two, do I actually understand what kind of impact will it have on children’s learning or am I just using it because it’s something children wanted?  Because I couldn’t say I’m getting it because children like it, it’s not good enough, I have to show evidence.  My governors always wanted to see data, so every time I used a game like Maths games, I collected data.  I presented that data in governors meeting and that helped me move to the next stage and get the new software or new application.  
I always wanted to try the Civilisation, I heard that’s something people did quite a lot of research on.  And I thought it would work quite well, especially with our learning on ancient worlds and history, I thought it would work quite well.  But never had the opportunity, never acted on it.
So you were saying about collecting the data about the impact, the outcomes, evidence of outcomes.  What sort of areas do you see being those where there is added value for educational outcomes?  Different sorts of outcomes?
We have the subject knowledge, that’s number one, if I’m focussing on Maths or the phonics games sometimes we use.  And sometimes we use Science games, simulations, like the Machineers, gears.  So we have the subject knowledge, that is one side.  The other part, I would say the collaboration that is very strong because when I am using games in the classroom it seems like any game design for both elements it seems like we manage the classroom a bit different than how I would manage it in the normal lessons.  I become more flexible.  
So the children can work collaboratively, they move around, they have discussions, the whole atmosphere becomes more flexible and relaxed.  There is no expectation of being quiet, there is no expectations of sitting and completing your work yourself.  It’s more about the interactions that they have with their friends.  They wander around.  So that collaboration element is very important.
Problem solving, that’s always apparent there.  Because they’re always solving problems to go to the next stage.  And the nice thing is they receive the feedback direct, they don’t wait for me to go around and check their work and say well done.  They get that in the form of points or reward or life, something, but they get that feedback directly.  And because they are the one who is in control they are the one who is making the decisions, they are the one who is evaluating, I definitely think there’s a strong link between gaming, game playing, game making, and metacognition, I really think there is a strong link.  Because they are the one who is managing all the mental activities, rather than expecting me to scaffold at every stage.
I see.  I’ll just move you on there to some of those keywords that I mentioned at the beginning, here are some.  And I think you’ve covered quite a lot of the ground here talking about the experiences, different sorts of impact, the context that you’re working in with both game playing and game making in primary school with the Maths and let’s say the broader skills based skills development and so forth.  You’ve mentioned different types of games in the game type, entertainment games, serious games, there’s also gamification.
Yes.  It’s a thing that you take the elements of game mechanics and you apply it to a context not necessarily related to games.  That is a very important one I would say, and I chatted about this with another friend today, because how can teachers actually – because it’s so motivational and powerful, how could teachers pick on those elements and then use it when they are designing ordinary lessons?  You know, the topics.  I don’t know.  I think one of the things for me is how we design the learning space.  If you are more flexible and let each other make the decisions, receiving feedback directly rather than waiting for us, I don’t know.  
But it’s something that it’s not very clear how it would work in a classroom environment, it’s not clear.  It would be nice, I always say myself as well, I wish we could pick on those points that make them so engaged with the activity and then use it to engage them in the areas that they don’t really like it much.  And also we need to think – one thing I think I missed, my boys always engage more with the commercial games.  And they didn’t always like the Maths games or Science games, because it just didn’t feel like real game to them.  Some of them would use that terminology, it’s not like a real game, is it?  Because what do you mean by real game, that’s quite interesting.  But the girls they did, and the puzzle problems on Nintendos and things, they liked them, my girls.  But the boys, they had very high expectations.
Is that do you think from their gaming experience with commercial games?
I think so, yeah.  They definitely have experience in gaming, they know what to expect.  Like in Missionmakers you did not create or personalise your characters, you had to use what is available, they hated that.  Because they said in Call of Duty you can buy this outfit, you can buy this helmet or you can buy this gun if you have points.  They said, “So what is the point if I can't buy anything?  What do I do with the points then?”
You also mentioned before about their dislike of not having the choice to change the characters in the Maths game.
Yeah.  They absolutely hate if they don’t have the flexibility of manipulating objects in that game.  But boys seem to have more expectations than the girls, that’s what I would say.
You also mentioned control a couple of times about that being important.  Control over the environment.
Yes.  Well, it’s like they want to be able to – they want to feel that they are the one in charge, they are the one who’s playing, and they are the one who can actually manipulate everything within the game and make decisions.  I feel like girls that I have, and I had half in half, my class was thirty and I had fifteen boys – no, sixteen boys, fourteen girls I had.  And they were Year 5, Year 6, because it was a elementary school, so I had four of each classes.  I would collect data from over a hundred and fifty students at times sometimes.  It seems like the girls are not that keen on digital games, especially those with the violence in it.
I’m going to move forward to the next theme now, and that is more specifically in terms of games and learning, okay, this is the general theme.  I think you’ve already mentioned quite a lot of what you see as the added value of games in terms of you’ve mentioned engagement, control, feedback, motivation, all of these things I think you’ve already mentioned, haven't you?
I think one of the things about games and learning for me is how the teachers understand this.  When I did my research, again I was a primary school teacher then, I wasn’t at the university, I did this research on what is teachers perspective of game based learning.  I was interviewing my own colleagues, and one of them, he said something quite interesting, he said, “I watch you and I see how you direct these children.  You are kind of pushing them towards the right direction but you are giving them licence to run as far as they can.”  So I am not controlling them, I am there facilitating, but I give them the licence to move forward if they need.  And I only reel in if they need support.  That is kind of I always say understanding the pedagogy, because the learning, will it happen automatically if I did not provide and design that learning space with the knowledge of pedagogy?  I don’t know is the answer.  Because I’m thinking if I am not really— 
I’ll give you an example.  I went to watch another ICT coordinator teaching Scratch.  And he gave them the instructions, he told them what characters they need to use and what background. He gave them the story, the narration, and then he gave them fifteen minutes to complete it.  In another class my colleague gave children an instruction sheet and told them to complete that.  When I do game design I always start with what makes a game a game, I start from that.  I’m just thinking, games and learning, I think it only happens depends on how the teachers understand their role within that space and facilitates that.  Because we are talking about collaborative where it doesn’t happen if you don’t let them work together, otherwise it becomes a very solo activity.  
We’re talking about problem solving, how do we know, how do we measure that.  I give my children problem solving sheets and I ask them to record their problems for four years data collection for my PhD.  They wrote down their problems, they drew the pictures, and then they explain how they solved it.  I make sense of it so that I can actually implement it into my game.  Creativity, when you are playing games you are constantly trying to design solutions, that requires creative thinking.  Otherwise you can't just solve a problem without having that creative mind.  It’s more than just playing game and reaching the target and getting the points.  In the process of it I think children development.  
And again, we are talking about mindset quite a lot, don’t we, resistance.  That is again in games they fail but they still continue,  they try to do it again, again, again.  They don’t just give up and say, oh I lost it.  Perseverance, that skill is developing without them actually being taught, isn't it?  So I quite like it.  Whatever you’re doing in games it kind of links quite a lot to computational thinking as well, isn't it?
Can I just take you back there.  You’ve mentioned a lot of very interesting, very important aspects of games and learning in terms of added values they can bring.  What about – how do you see limitations?  What sort of limitations and perhaps even drawbacks do you see?
Games, you mean, on learning?
Or games generally.
I think one thing I find is the difficulty in keeping record of children’s learning, assessment, it’s so difficult.  How do you assess children’s learning when they are playing games?  And I’m not talking about those Maths games that you complete, you know, times tables and you get points.  I’m talking about the games, how do you assess their learning?  Because not all the learning is visible, some of them is behind the scenes.  And unless as a teacher you know methods that can make that learning visible you are not going to be able to record it.  Because when I record it I use so many different tools.  I use observations, I give children little diaries so they can keep record of their ideas, but as a teacher would you be able to manage that alongside your other subject teaching?  I don’t know.  So I think that is one drawback, difficulty in assessing children’s learning when they are playing games.  I find that very difficult.
Second, I think the drawback is finding games that are actually appropriate for a purpose.  If you go into App Store now, there are thousands of Maths games, thousands of Literacy games, and you haven't got time to buy and try them all.  What are the criteria when you’re selecting games that are actually appropriate for your teaching objectives or learning objectives?  That is quite difficult I think so.  And finding gender free games as well, because I want games that engage my girls, not just boys.  The games that I see they’re not always thinking about these gender balances.  The very nice games that I saw, quite male dominated, and I don’t know how are we going to use those to engage the girls.  So there are drawbacks.
And also as I said games on its own is not going to work in the classroom unless you have the pedagogical knowledge to embed it carefully.  So that is also a drawback because not every teacher has that pedagogical understanding.  Teachers short cuts things, like something quick, it can help them teach and assess very quickly.
Thanks.  Just have a look here, I think we’ve pretty much covered most of – we’re looking at the key words for games and learning here, most of the areas you’ve mentioned have come up here in this slide, talking about knowledge and collaboration.  Competition is another one there.
Hmm.  Is it competition between the students?  
Yes,  how do you see competition with games in your experience?
Competition, I think competition it’s healthy but you do see sometimes there are arguments coming out of it, because some children do not enjoy losing and they like only winning.  It can end up in tears, that’s what I remember.  But again, it’s a good space to learn that, that losing is okay.  What I would say, the attitudes, when I was thinking about perseverance, some fail, they continue and continue, so maybe competition also had impact on that perseverance, maybe they were connected.
I think that’s great, we’ve pretty much covered this area.  We’ll move onto the next general theme now, which is games and the individual.  So looking at how the individual, both in education and outside of education, how they relate to games and what sort of impacts they might have on them.  You mentioned for example the motivation and perhaps some aspects of addiction about your boys going off playing Call of Duty instead of doing any school work and so forth.  What thoughts do you have in this area?
I’m not sure it’s addiction, I think it’s enjoyment.  Because they enjoy, they like it and they don’t seem to enjoy the school work that much.  Which one would you prefer?  Of course you will prefer the one that you have fun with.  And they’re doing it with their friends that they choose.  There’s a freedom in this.  They play, they choose who to play, when to play, what to play.  There’s a freedom on it where in school everything is being shaped by us, they have no say in it.  So of course they wouldn’t feel like they are part of that learning environment.  Where in that one they know they are the part of it and they will engage better than they would engage in schools.
But if we look at their personalities, as I said, majority of my students were Muslim boys, they were quite macho.  Culturally they manage their mother, not mother managing them.  Because we would have words with parents, we would run sessions saying, look, there are age limitations on games, you must watch, you must be careful.  They shouldn’t be playing with this game.  We would try to teach them the legislation and the signs on games, what it meant.  But some of the parents would say, “Oh, they don’t listen to us.”  So the children are the ones deciding the games that they would play, the parents had no control over this.  
So I think that kind of makes them really feel empowered.  In school I will tell them what they can and can't play.  But not at home, they decide whatever.  The games that they play at home they see it as real games, the games that they play with us at school they don’t see them as real games and they don’t get engaged with it as much.  They will play maybe a couple of minutes then they will just switch off.  But I can assure you from watching my son as well, he is very similar to them, when they play at home they can play ten hours and they don’t feel like ten hours passed.
And how do you feel about that, with your son and with your students?
I cannot be negative about it because I can understand why they are playing.  I always say to my son as long as you complete your tasks, your lessons, your work, then I have absolutely no problem with it.  And I am not sure that I agree with games make children violent because I do have an extremely calm child.  But what worries me is the problem solving skills that they develop within that game playing doesn’t seem to always transfer into the other areas in learning, and I’m thinking is there a way of doing that.  Because he’s really good at playing games and problem solving and he does really good levels, but I don’t see him using that problem solving skills in other areas of learning. It’s like it’s only staying in there.
Okay.
That’s quite worrying.  So the individual they will play because they have the freedom I think.  Engagement, enjoyment, motivated.  I don’t know whether it’s addictive, I think it’s just enjoyment.  You get people who enjoy being on Facebook, spend hours in there, that’s the same thing.  Or you get people who are watching hours of TV because they like watching films. 
And they’re all—
Exactly like that you like playing games.  My husband is fifty – how old are you, fifty-four?  Fifty-five.  And he now has obsession with Pokémon.  We make the mistake of putting Pokémon on his phone and now he goes out to walk for hours so that he can collect Pokémon.  Now he’s obsessed with Forge of Empires.  And he doesn’t like technology but he gets enjoyment out of it, do you see what I mean?
It’s very interesting actually because all the other forms of media you mentioned, the different sorts of games, be they commercial games, digital games, educational games, Facebook and so forth, they’re all very sedentary pursuits and entertainments, people sitting down.  It’s one thing I guess you’ve heard talk of people perhaps being a bit critical of how sedentary we’ve becoming with all of these things.  Whereas the Pokémon Go you mentioned your husband plays is actually getting some physical movement going.
He lost quite a lot of weight actually since then, because he walks from his work through the Regent’s Park to home, so he walks every day two hours and he lost weight, yes, his trousers are now too big.
It doesn’t help having been diagnosed as having had a heart attack and I need to lose weight.
He did have a heart attack so it’s good for him to lose the weight anyway.
What about the kids with their movement with games?
That’s the thing, we created this website with website with my students, children again in primary school.  We put that for a competition as well and we won, we went to House of Parliament and got good money and things out of that.
Congratulations. 
How we can use technology to keep fit.  And they put some nice blog entries on the website, I can share that with you.  How they use Wii, Nintendo Wii games, for keeping fit.  So there are elements, there are games specifically designed for that.  But then again, we were trying with my son the other day we had the VR for Playstation, you’re moving it, you’re trying to fight against a robot and you’re trying to move.  It’s developing, isn't it, before you were sitting and playing with a keyboard.  
And then you have controllers, and then you have specific guns and things for some of them, some of the games you have the guns and you use them.  Now you have the VR you kind of feel the body gestures of that character and I think that is fascinating.  You are in the game, you can feel it how your movements interacts within the space.  That’s quite fascinating.  
Yes, there is a danger, they are sitting hours, and if you watch South Park you will see one of them how they got fat. (Laughs)  But you can I think kind of adjust it, I don't know, as a parent you can adjust it.  So they can sit and watch TV for hours as well, but then games has the potential of embedding the physical movements in it, it depends on who is designing and what is the purpose of it really.
So it depends very much on how these things are handled it seems.
Exactly.  I am not sure it’s addiction though.  I think it’s just they get enjoyment out of it.  And whatever you get enjoyment out of you will do.  Cognitive abilities, yes, problem solving, yes.
Sorry, just to interrupt you here, we’ve moved on to the slide with the keywords now.
It’s fascinating I think.  Because it’s really when you think about it, they are the one who’s managing the mental activities.  They are the one who is in control of their learning, they are the one who is thinking about their achievement, their learning, their thinking.  So definitely because they are using it all the time I am sure they are developing it.  Because they are applying it in different problem solving context, not one, it’s constantly solving problems.
You also mentioned there with the engagement, the immersion also, both approaches and technologies that could be very promising.
Yes, I think so too.  We are now looking at the VR and it is really a different stage for children.  I know that if you play on 4D TVs, we don’t have them, then it will give them different experience, won't it? 
Sure.  So I think we’ve covered this fairly exhaustively in terms of games and the individual.  We’ll move on to the next area which we’ve actually touched on with in terms of games and ethics.  You’ve already mentioned a number of ethical questions of gender that you mentioned earlier on, in terms of finding suitable games or the response of both boys and girls students to different gender representations in games.  And you’ve mentioned something about violence as well in terms of games.
It’s a difficult one, isn't it?  Because this word ethics is very cultural related I think.  What is accepted in one country might not be accepted in another country.  So it’s very difficult to come up with general ethics for games.  I don’t know how the game designer works when they are developing, whether they think about they have this general norms politics or ages or do they use those cultural things, implications.  But I think one of the things I will think is the sexual content in games.  Like when you look at Grand Theft, when you look at that game you remember how people are on the street protesting it.  Because of the language that you use towards women and there was I think some issues around rape if I remember correctly.
But why is it the children are loving it so much?  Children as young as seven and eight I’m saying.  But then isn't that everywhere, you listen to the rap songs, they all have sexual content, you look at the films, all have sexual content.  So why is that we’re not reacting as much to those contents in the other context?  But in a game context it seems like we react more.
Why do you think that might be?  Any ideas?
I don’t know.  I just don’t understand this negativity towards game is kind of encouraging people to look at anything that will make it look negative.  Should we not focus on for example films all have sexual context, majority of them, even teenage films that are watched.  And parents are not really bothered with that that much either.  But we are very much concerned as soon as it takes place in a game.  I don't know.  I think if we have general norms for ethics then maybe we need to apply to anything the children come into touch.  So I don't know.  Accept it, not accept it is a difficult one.
Age is an interesting one.  Again, I feel like children in the UK are growing quite mature faster than in some other countries that I’ve been.  That age thing is quite different I think from country to country, it’s not set for the whole world.  And the gender, we are always thinking about gender, but what about those children who may not exactly know what gender they belong to, we are not really thinking about those.  I had children in primary, I know they were gay and they maybe didn’t know how to name their feeling at that stage.  But I know that they are.  We provide them with games that’s so gender dominated, how is that making them feel?  I would feel like I was feeling excluded.
So that’s an ethical question that you find yourself having to face as a teacher?
Yes.  Because I always think the games should not be so gender dominated.  They should more gender – what do you call it?  
Gender independent.
Gender neutral.  That’s what I think I would like to see.  Because at that stage we’re dealing with quite a few ethics issues, aren’t we?  
Yes.
And the ethics around addiction, the parents always complain about their children being addicted.  Maybe they are not explaining it well.
What about the financial side, do you think there are any concerns in terms of money, finance, that sort of thing?
What do you mean, the game companies?
For example.
Well, they are of course going to focus on the money that they make, that’s quite normal, it’s a business.  That is quite normal.  But I’m thinking if more educator involves with these industries will have impact on that.  More educator and industry collaboration might.  But it is normal that game developers will only focus on making games, that’s normal, that’s what they are there for.
Sure.  
But then we get some teachers, educators start making games, haven't we?  I saw quite a few people making games and sharing, asking me to evaluate what I think about it, etcetera, etcetera.  So I think that might.  But then again, what game developers doing is they’re meeting the demand.  So if the boys like those boyish games then of course that is what they will create, it’s normal.  But then we need to think how we can raise interest in other children who are not engaging, through different games.  Maybe we need to have more different types of games to meet different interests of children.
And that’s an ethical—
And that is lacking I think, that is what we don’t have.  And that is related to ethics.  Because at the moment when you look at games that are really popular amongst young people and children they are lacking quite a lot of ethics norms.  But then we need to try and see if we can create games within those ethic norms and see if we can have a different audience that will engage with those ones as well.
That’s very, very interesting.  I’ll just bring up those keywords for games and ethics.  And I think you’ve covered a lot of those areas that we’ve mentioned.  You were touching on I think the inclusion, just in that last part, about providing for, catering for, a wider range of game players and game users, certainly is an aspect of inclusion.
Identity, diversity.
Yes, you’ve mentioned quite a lot.
The first thing, this diversity, I went to a conference in Turkey where I’m originally from and I was talking with a couple of teachers who created games.  And one of them, of course I shouldn’t laugh but I couldn’t help myself, he said they created a game to teach children how to behave well.  I said, “Oh, that’s amazing, what does it do?”  He said they give them tasks within the game and if they make the correct choice they get sev-up, sev-up means in Islam you get one – sin, and what is the opposite sin?  Good deed?  Yeah, you get good deed, and then they go to heaven.  So I said, “What happens if they do wrong, they get sin and go to hell?”  (Laughs)  It’s horrible, can you imagine that.  
You’re getting the game wrong and you end up going to hell.  Would you want to play a game like that?  These children loved it.  But culturally I think that would work in Turkey. But if I do that in England, I mean, my son doesn’t believe in God or anything, he will burst into tears, he will think, what a load of crap.  That diversity is an interesting one because it’s probably, hmm, do you think about the cultures and the religions and all those things when you’re making games, I don’t know.  It’s an interesting one.
Great.  I think we’ve covered this theme pretty well.  So let’s move on now to the next one.  Which is games and society.  So you’ve mentioned I think quite a lot of cultural, social issues already, just this last one that you were mentioning is a cultural issue that might be framed in terms of games and society.  
I’m just looking at the survey that we did with kids, because I thought that was – we identified an issue then and I was working in a primary school.  We said that the cultural traditions and philosophical beliefs of countries determine the principles that a national curriculum is designed upon.  So I’m thinking about the games.  Because the game, if I think in an educational context and it is going to be very much linked to the philosophy and the cultural beliefs of that country, isn't it?  It’s not going to be separated.  But then as a society, if you’re not thinking of it in an educational context and we’re just thinking about society, then I think it’s a different scene.
And I think this is what is causing the problem for games not entering into the classroom.  Because hospital individually they developed their own society if you ask me, through game playing.  Does that make sense to you?  So they have like a universal gamer society.  My son plays games, my students play games with children around the world.  They created their own little world within a world, so society within a society, so therefore they got their norms set according to their enjoyment out of the game.  But then you have the real society which is affected by media quite a lot rather than the research, that’s what I believe anyway.  Because someone publishing an article on how games are bad for children, many parents will take that as a norm.  So the society’s framework, the view, has been shaped by the media.
Now you have the society within school, the teachers, and what their view, what their experience of games is.  So you have society in different forms and they all have different views of gaming.  That is I think what is causing the problem for games not entering the classroom of course.  So which society we are talking here.
So you see a number of tensions between these different norms coming from different cultural backgrounds, give different forms of cultural engagement through games?
I think that.  Because if you look at the children coming from very different culture, different religion, different race, different upbringing, but they are meeting with other children coming from different backgrounds around the games.  Do you see, they designed a new world through gaming that it doesn’t have impact on, it doesn’t have link to religion or race or anything.  There are children playing Call of Duty from many different religions, many different countries, on the Playstation or XBox network.  But they are all coming from a completely different society, they are all brought up differently, but they are still getting the enjoyment through the same game.
I’ve heard many concerns from different people saying, okay, yes, you’ve got this great diversity in different people, particularly young people, from different backgrounds playing or joining a community around the game such as something like Call of Duty.  There are some concerns that their culture somehow is being in a sense over – in some cases perhaps influenced or overcome by the dominating culture of that game community that comes from a particular culture.  Do you see it that way?
Yes, because some games will have the impact of one country maybe I don’t know.  Some of the context will be related to one country’s history maybe.  I don't know.  But that doesn’t seem to bother them.
Okay.
The interaction that they get out of it is what seems to matter for them.  Whether the soldiers were wearing American or British uniform, doesn’t seem to matter for these children.  It’s the interaction and the killing side of it, what they can do within that environment is what matters.  But when we look through the society, if we are thinking about education society, because society I think is so hard to just say society.  If we look at from education society it matters for them.
Sure.  We’ll just bring up now the keywords associated with games and society that have come up in the project.  And you’ve mentioned a number of those in terms of cultural change, social change, policy you mentioned earlier I think.  And you’ve also mentioned games related innovation.
The policy is interesting, because there are now more organisations looking at the issues and rules around the games and publishing some criterias and things, isn't it?  EU has their own one I think as well.  EU has their own grading for games and things.  Marketing, hmm, interesting.  It makes me think now when you say marketing, I mean, do they think that – because of what is happening in the Middle East and things, looking at the Call of Duty and killing, it’s usually based on the American soldiers really.  Would it be easier to market in those countries because they will want to kill the American soldiers, I don’t know (laughs).  
But how does it impact, I don't know, it would be very nice to look into this.  Interesting.  Because when you’re marketing do you think about the latest social issues in that country when you’re creating these games or do you only have in mind specific region in the world?  That’s interesting.  Because if you are designing a region free game then you would be more careful about your character, your narration, your settings, wouldn’t you?
Yeah.
So if you are creating a game and you are aiming only for North America or maybe Europe then it might be – I don't know.  Or do the players think about it when they look at Call of Duty, do they think as region free, everyone can play, or do they get that feeling I was saying.
Identification, mm-hmm.  So in terms of policy you mentioned I think things about ratings, for example, in terms of sexual content, violence content and so forth.  Are there any other policy areas that you think come into play with games and society?
I’m thinking about educational policy as well, because that will definitely impact on how you can use games in the classroom or not, isn't it?  I think in Scotland they mention games in their curriculum if I remember correctly.  Implementing games.  So there was encouragement coming directly from the top encouraging people.  But I think in our one, if I remember correctly, it also mentioned playing and making digital games, but doesn’t necessarily give the context.  Other countries curriculum I don’t think they mention games.  So I wonder that policy, when we think about coming from the top, if the policy makers in education mentioned the benefits and use of games in learning, would it be used more widely by teachers?  I don't know.
That just about covers games and society.  Just in a sense to wrap up on the last theme, it’s not really a theme, it’s suggestions.  You’ve mentioned some suggestions that might be made to different stakeholders involved, be they policy makers or educators or I think you mentioned a couple of times game designers as well.  Are there any more suggestions that you would make from your experience and your viewpoint to the different stakeholders involved in the gaming field as to how to let’s say progress how to take games forward?
I think we are at a very lucky stage at the moment because coding has entered the curriculum of many countries.  Yasmin Kafai she discussed so beautifully how we can connect game playing to constructive game making.  So for me what would be the best thing is, yes, we are supporting this coding and encouraging people to teach coding, but it would be very nice to see the power of games and game making have that impact on children developing computational thinking and programming skills.  At this stage, that would be really nice to come up with some suggestions to teachers how they could do that.
The one thing which would be very fascinating, my suggestion is how we can involve educators in game making and work with those companies.  I don’t know.  Because if we want these commercial games to enter into schools rather than just the educational games, then we need to involve in the design of it so that we can put the elements into it, embed the elements.  Because how it stands I cannot imagine many schools will use Call of Duty or Grand Theft, so we need to think about how we can develop games that can be real game as children said but also appropriate to use in the classroom at the same time.
And the third thing I think I will suggest, we need to educate teachers more.  We need to run sessions for them, we need to teach them what game based learning means, we need to teach them what game mechanics is, we need to teach them what game literacy is.  So that they actually understand the value of the tool and the limitations, all of them, before they can actually try to embed into their lesson.  So that they know it’s more than just bringing a game and playing in the classroom.  So we need to really create some form or framework, something for teachers to use.  
I’m not talking about an academic tool either because they don’t work.  The majority of the teachers will not even bother with many of the academics and what they created as a tool because it just doesn’t make sense for them.  I’m talking about a practical tool which will help them to understand the theoretical side through discussions.  And actually we are thinking about this with a couple of teacher friends from Canada and America, that’s what I was doing Skype before I met you.  We were thinking about creating this framework with them in the form of like a MOOC and face to face CPD, so that they can actually make sense of what game based learning is.  See how games work in educational context and then see if they can embed the elements into their teaching, their subjects.  I think that would be very useful.  Because at this point I think they want to use it, but they just don’t know how.
Good, thanks for those very, very interesting suggestions.  I’ve just shown you some of the names, the keywords for the stakeholders that have been mentioned in the project as terms of suggestions for taking games forward, and I think you’ve covered a number of those quite well.
I think we cannot connect with parents because the teachers don’t take much knowledge of it, so they can't really share it with the parents either.  The only thing we shared with parents, we would say look at the age ratings, so be careful about that.  Except that we couldn’t really tell them anything.  They would say, “Oh, don’t you think this game is bad?”  And I’m like, it is what do we mean by bad as well, isn't it?  Why is it bad?  I don't know.  Does it teach – can you really make someone violent?  It just doesn’t make sense to me.  But again that is my view, isn't it, every educator will have a very different view I think.
Good.  Just to finish off, is there anything that you’d like to add or to comment on, either on what we’ve talked about or about the interview itself?
No, not really.
Great.  [anonymised], thank you very much.  We’ll officially end the interview here, so we’ve finished.  Can I just say thank you very, very much.  It’s been I have to say a little bit frustrating for me because I would have liked to jump in and discuss so many things with you, but of course I’m not able to do that because we have to take your view and your vision and so forth and analyse that.  But I would have really liked the opportunity to do that.  And possibly we may have some opportunities coming up further along in the project.
Yes, please keep in mind [ANONYMISED] if you ever want to do any work in our university.  We have a very good game based learning team there, you know Professor Andrew Burn from London Knowledge Lab?
Of course.
He is amazing.  He was my Masters tutor.  So if you ever need to come and do some work in London that would be so nice.  Because I train teachers, that’s what my job is.  I only train teachers, primary teachers I focus on but we have a secondary teacher team as well.
That’s really, really interesting.  And we’ll be in touch with you, let you know, all of the interviews that we’re doing are going to be transcribed, analysed and so forth, so we’ll let you know when the deliverable is published that puts all that analysis together.  But we’ll be in touch about some other activities as well in the project.  Anyway, I’ll be sending you your certificate of participation as well to recognise that.
Thank you very much.  Take care.
You too, thank you very much for your time.