post_number,post_id,created_at,topic_id,reply_count,reads,readers_count,incoming_link_count,quote_count,like_count,score,reply_to_post_id,source_username,target_username,text 1,74176,2020-04-11T09:17:34.077Z,13183,3,61,60,1270,1,0,6427.2,74176,anon3379761435,anon3379761435," Governments and tech companies are reaching for tech-based tools to help defeat the COVID-19 pandemic. Many of the solutions under discussion imply restrictions to civil liberties and human rights, like the right to privacy (here is [Edward Snowden weighing in](https://youtu.be/k5OAjnveyJo)). This is creating uneasiness in the communities I am a part of – a disturbance in the Force, if you are a Star Wars fan. People worry, but no one is sure what an appropriate diagnosis and response to the situation would be. Is the situation ""problematic"" or ""dystopian""? Can we do anything about it, besides worrying? You see, there are two kinds of problem. For the first kind, the more knowledge people gain about the problem, the less they worry. For the second kind, the more knowledge they gain, the more they worry. Nuclear power production belongs to the first kind; climate change belongs to the second one. Is government-corporate use of tech surveillance more like nuclear power, or is it more like climate change? The puzzle is complex, and no single person seems to have all the pieces. But that does not scare me: I am part of Edgeryders, and In Collective Intelligence We Trust. So we organized a [community listening point to touch base with each other.](/t/13089) It was open to anyone, but we made a few targeted invitations to people who hold important pieces of that puzzle. What follows is a summary of what I learned in that meeting. It is only my personal perspective. I make no claim to speak for anyone else. I offer it in a spirit of openness, and in the hope to contribute to a broad, diverse, honest conversation. Taking part in such conversations is, I find, the main way we humans navigate problems as complex as this one. ## About the listening event, and Edgeryders's role in it The listening event took place on April 9th, at 17.00 CEST as a Zoom conference call. We made it public through [a post](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-a-community-listening-session-on-emergent-post-covid-trends-from-contact-tracking-to-special-powers/13089?u=anon3379761435) on the anon1577251828.eu online forum. People learned of it mostly through Twitter. I have taken the initiative to reach out to some people whose opinion I was keen to hear. We discussed for two hours, with 32 to 36 people logged in at any given time. About 18 of them spoke at least once – I counted 11 male-sounding voices and 7 female-sounding ones. Their backgrounds and expertise was in: * The legal community. * The medical/public health community. * Digital tech. This was the largest group. People declared specializations in the fields of: information security; privacy; digital identity; artificial intelligence; big data analysis. * Privacy and human rights online. * Public policy and democratic participation therein. * Media. My colleagues at Edgeryders and I participated as concerned citizens, like everyone else. But we were also working, because we we are part of a project called [NGI Forward](https://research.ngi.eu). Its role is to advise the European Commission on anon2696444391 to ensure that the future Internet upholds our common values of human rights and rule of law. We adopted Chatham House rules. So, this post reports what people said, but not their names. The call was not recorded; I saved its chat to help me write this writeup, but then deleted the file. The [information sheet](https://bit.ly/SurveillancePandemic) contains full disclosure about our treatment of information from the event. I take full responsibility for any incorrect reporting, and welcome any integration, correction or additional point of view. Please respond to this post, and let's improve each other's understanding. ## Result 1: there is cause to worry, but also leverage for defense There are several good reasons to be on our guard. * Policy makers tend to overestimate the effectiveness of technology-based surveillance vis-a-vis the pandemic. People spoke of pervasive solutionism (in [the sense of Evgeny Mozorov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeny_Morozov#To_Save_Everything,_Click_Here:_The_Folly_of_Technological_Solutionism) – ""a anon2488317424 magic dust can fix any problem""). * Digital surveillance companies are treating COVID-19 as a business opportunity. Some of these have dubious track records on the respect of human rights online. In the words of one participant: > In the last week, it's been reported that around a dozen governments are using Palantir software and that the company is in talks with several more. They include agencies in Austria, Canada, Greece and Spain, the US, and the UK. * The public is scared, so willing to accept almost anything. Example: in Italy, drones are being used to check distancing in public spaces. There are talks of equipping them with facial recognition algos. Is this necessary? Why? Is it going to become a permanent feature in our cities? Another example: car manufacturer Ferrari has a plan called ""back on track"". It involves re-opening the factory with a scheme that includes mandatory blood testing and a contact tracing app. Is this the kind of decision that your employer should make for you? What happens if you test positive? There are two lines of defense against abuse of surveillance tech: * Data protection laws, starting with the GDPR. They all state that any data retention should be ""necessary and proportionate"" to the need it tries to solve. This is a weak defense, because all such laws provide exceptions for public safety. Also, governments and corporates have a history of ignoring ""necessary and proportionate"". * If this fails, civil society can invoke the European Convention on Human Rights. This has its own court, which is not part of the EU, and so it is at arm's length from the EU political space. ## Result 2. Contact tracing apps are ineffective against COVID-19, but may help in the next pandemic Everyone in the call, without exception, agreed that contact tracing apps won't help against COVID-19. The rationale for building one such app, people explained, is to quickly quarantine everyone who got exposed to the first few cases. Once the virus spreads, confinement, as we have now, is a more appropriate measure. It is difficult to think that even the best app would prevent more contacts than people staying at home. On top of this, these apps are easy to get wrong. Among failure modes, people cited: * Data governance issues: possible breaches, difficulty to anonymize the data, and so on. More on this below. * Lock-in effects: for these app to work, they need 50-60% of the population to take them on. It's a ""winner-take-it-all"" service. There is potential for companies to lock authorities into long term contracts, invoke all kinds of confidentiality to protect their business models, and so on. This situation could prevent better solutions from emerging. * Loss of confidence: if the authorities roll out an app, and it does not deliver, the public may lose confidence in *any* app. This could happen as new cases rise again after lockdown is loosened, as is happening currently across Asia. This might burn an opportunity to help contain the next pandemic at an early stage. So, why is everyone (including several people in our call!) building contact tracing apps? Because there is a political demand for it. It is linked to the end of the lockdown. Leaders are seen as doing nothing, while leaving people behind locked doors. They are eager to provide solutions. This, anon2696444391ever, is very tricky to do. Evidence from Singapore sanon2696444391s that contact tracing is not working well to prevent new outbreaks. But what are the alternatives? Political leaders are reluctant to tell people ""the danger is over, go back to your lives"". This is sure to backfire in the political arena if the epidemics enters a second wave. This is where solutionism kicks in: building an app can be presented as ""doing something about it"". On top of that, building apps is much faster, cheaper and easier, than, say, retooling the health care system. So, it's a political win, though not an epidemiological one. Several people pointed out that it is not a bad idea to build a contact tracing app. But it is a bad idea to rush it, because 1. To be effective, tracing needs near-universal availability of testing, which is currently not there. Without this, contact tracing need to rely on self-reporting. 2. To be effective, they also need a large, probably unrealistic, uptake (50-60%, where Singapore managed 12%). 2. We will not need one until the next pandemic. Rushing development might lead to the deployment of evil, ineffective or broken solutions. One participant had this to offer: > I am currently involved with a group building a contact tracing app. But I am uneasy, actually thank you for giving voice to my anxieties. I do not see my colleagues discussing the use cases for this tech. I do not see them asking themselves if their solution is going to be effective. I do not see them discussing failure modes of the technologies. Almost everybody is hiding their head in the sand about the consequences of these solutions, intended or not. So, the consensus in the group seemed to be for channeling tech repos > To keep it simple, most “obvious” solutions in an emergency turn out to be counter productive. […] You need to do your emergency homework in advance, and trust the experts. So for my contribution, I would argue you send every “develop an emergency app”/“do-something-itis” developer to work on *future pandemic* solutions, rather than give them reign in a crisis. ## Result 3. Immunity passports are an unworkable idea Another idea that is making the rounds is that of [immunity passports](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/immunity-passports-could-speed-up-return-to-work-after-covid-19). The group agreed that they can turn into a civil rights nightmare, As one participant said: > They are going to be basically ""passport to civil liberties"". There are going to be a lot of perverse incentives around them. One perverse incentive that came up: > Would that not create a huge incentive for people to go out and get infected, so they can get natural immunity? So nobody would want to do distancing, and we do not flatten the curve. Over and above such concerns, it seems unlikely that immunity certificates would be effective. Issuing certificates means that having capacity to do massive-scale testing. We do not have that. If that capacity was there, we would be much better off in fighting COVID-19 with traditional anti-epidemic protocols, and not need immunity certificates. The medical professionals in the call also reminded us that we do not know anon2696444391 immunity works with SARS-CoV-2. How long does it last? Does it prevent reinfection, or only make it weaker? So, it's not even clear what you would be certifying. ## Result 4. Locational data are impossible to anonymize, and of limited utility. Capacity for data governance is bad Participants agreed that it is not realistic to promise anonymization of locational data. A [famous 2013 study](https://www.nature.com/articles/srep01376) sanon2696444391s that human mobility traces are highly unique. Four datapoints were enough to de-anonymize 95% of individuals in a large cellphone operator dataset. As one person put it: > I never trust a policy maker when they say ""this data is going to be anonymized"". They do not understand what anonymisation means. And any solution will increase the amount of data in play. As explained above, people were also sceptical on the usefulness of locational data in fighting the pandemic. > I do not think that you get any useful information from these apps. They will sanon2696444391 that people get infected in places, like supermarkets or hospital, where people HAVE to come into contact with each other. One participant offered these apps could help in assessing the efficacy of containment measures. That does not require granular data, but only pre-aggregated statistics. A [recent paper](https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/03/30/science.abb6936.full) on Science argues that it is possible to do this securely. The EFF has just released a [policy proposal](https://github.com/BDI-pathogens/covid-19_instant_tracing/blob/master/Policy%20forum%20-%20COVID-19%20containment%20by%20herd%20protection.pdf) on this solution. This was the one part of the conversation where I felt I could add my bit. After ten years of open data activism, I am pessimistic on the ability of EU governments and companies to do advanced, ethical governance of large datasets. The daily data on confirmed cases, hospitalizations and deaths are a mess. No standardization, no metadata, collection criteria that keep changing. Belgium, for example, on some days (but not every day!) reports on the same day the sum of two dishomogenous quantities: * number of people who died in hospital on that day, confirmed positive for SARS-CoV-2, plus * number of people who died in the ""last few days"" in retirement homes, not tested ([example](https://www.anon738668702f.be/info/societe/detail_coronavirus-en-belgique-suivez-en-direct-la-conference-de-presse-du-centre-inter-federal-de-crise-11h?id=10479728)). Other example: the former head of Italy's pension administration authority deplored the lack of open data on unemployment benefit claims. Scholars and policy makers themselves are flying blind, with no reliable data. How can we trust people who cannot maintain a Google spreadsheet to anon3983078393 a massive trove of sensitive locational data? A silver lining in all this is that contact tracing apps were battle-tested ten years ago. This means we have open datasets which can be used to model the impact of public health measures ([example](https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/research/centres/risk/downloads/crs-sao-paolo-virus-pandemic.pdf)). If the goal is modelling, there is no need for more surveillance. ## Result 5. Where to look for (pieces of) the solution People offered several suggestions for where we could look for solutions, or at least improvements. * Medical and public health practitioners insisted on good execution over innovation. The WHO protocols, although devised for flu-type viruses, are well suited to coronaviruses as well. But their deployment was late and sloppy. Even at the time of writing, most EU countries cannot test at scale; they cannot provide adequate equipment. The medical community sees this emphasis on tech as misdirection. Part of any solution is to do public health well, without cutting corners. One participant from Italy remarked: > For example, we closed schools and universities, but did not inform students that they should not be hanging out with their friends. We did not tell students from different cities and regions to go back home. The rules are simple: if you are ill, tell your friends, and tell them to get tested. But in Italy it is hard to get tested, so the whole protocol fails. Contact tracing is the last thing we need. It is useless from a public health efficacy point of view, and not proportionate. * Other participants highlighted the positive of labor-intensive ""boots on the ground"". A participant from the UK remarked: > I am worried that people fall off the cracks, because they are not on government databases and we do not see them. Maybe they are disabled, but have a job. They never touch the state, and fund their own care. I am worried about people with learning disabilities, for example. If you are not on social media, you have not seen the messages of your local authority, telling you where to get help. * Several people remarked that the tech community can have the greatest impact by playing a support role. They identified three areas to do this in. One is supporting what doctors are already doing, for example remote diagnosis or e-mail prescriptions. Another is supporting community organizers – another example of ""boots on the ground"". The third one is the people manning the supply chain. * The tech community might find an important role to play in protecting the most vulnerable individuals from the worst consequences of the pandemic, and of the measures adopted to fight it. This was not mentioned in the call, but rather proposed in the ensuing online discussion. [quote=""anon1996966876, post:23, topic:13183""] Dare I say that if tech wants to make a contribution, a great way to do it, would be exploring the causal factors behind why minorities communities are being hit harder or perhaps not receiving the help required during this pandemic. [/quote] * There was agreement that it might helpful to lift IPR restrictions. We found one nice example in Italy, where a SME [3D-printed respirator valves](https://www.industriaitaliana.it/isinnova-stampa-3d-di-valvole-per-respiratori-polmonari-componenti-meccanici-e/) that could not be obtained on the market fast enough to save lives. > We contacted the producer, a multinational, and asked them for the CAD file. They expressed reluctance and would not reach a decision. There are protocols, safety concerns. These are doubtlessly important. But there were people in need of saving, so we went ahead and reverse engineered it. [...] We have not been sued so far. * Several people suggested that studying history (of epidemics, of technologies, of health and technology policies) could be useful. Solutionism has been with us for a long time (at least since the 1950s, according to a participant). Studying its successes (not many) and failure modes (many more) might help us not make the same mistake twice. * And finally, people called for more patient, open deliberation. > The dialog between the technologically possible and the politically acceptable needs to be had. Immediately it will be done by the elected politicians, that is what they are there for. Then, we should be moving to broader participation. We should be building technology for participation, as much as we should be building technology for tracing. Amen to that. :-)" 2,74177,2020-04-11T10:31:08.229Z,13183,1,36,35,3,0,0,42.2,74176,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"So when the government does it, it's called solutionism, and when grassroots people do it, it's called hacking and they are celebrated for it? That does not seem too fair a judgment to me :smile: If you look at the development of technology around World War II, you see a similar frantic speed to get something done, and also a lot of half-assed and unworkable solutions, but ultimately it gave our technological possibilities a big boost (within wartime, but esp. also beyond it). There is a split between times of rapid development, and times of consolidating these developments and learning to live with them. The last years have been about learning to live with the Internet and its consequences, and now we're back in the rapid development mode. We can't choose what comes when, but we can make the best out of both times …" 3,74179,2020-04-11T10:41:44.391Z,13183,0,35,34,3,1,0,22.0,74177,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:2, topic:13183""] So when the government does it, it’s called solutionism, and when grassroots people do it, it’s called hacking and they are celebrated for it? That does not seem too fair a judgment to me [/quote] Hmm... no. Mozorov's main target was never governments. His criticism focused on private companies. Governments are vulnerable to the ""fairy dust"" seduction, but so are people and other private companies. [quote=""anon3197437925, post:2, topic:13183""] If you look at the development of technology around World War II, you see a similar frantic speed to get something done, and also a lot of half-assed and unworkable solutions, but ultimately it gave our technological possibilities a big boost (within wartime, but esp. also beyond it). [/quote] The argument in the call seems to be: yes, but the *problems* being tackled had more chances to be useful ones to solve. During WW2 govts were using their powers to order Rolls Royce to make plane engines, not to devise schemes to know where people were when the were supposed to be in bomb shelters. The medical people in the call support testing and proximity medicine over contact tracing apps. You could scramble for solutions on those, but someanon2696444391 you don't, and all the oxygen is on apps. Solutionism, à la Mozorov. I guess a strong suspicion here is that leadership has become optimized for posturing and attention-grabbing, which wins elections in quiet times, and so it is out of its depth when faced with an urgent crisis. But this is only my own guess, no one said it in the call." 4,74197,2020-04-12T07:48:44.805Z,13183,0,30,29,1,1,0,11.0,74176,anon2330592203,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13183""] We adopted Chatham House rules. So, this post reports what people said, but not their names. The call was not recorded; I saved its chat to help me write this writeup, but then deleted the file. [/quote] A very sensitive way - well done!" 5,74199,2020-04-12T07:52:39.245Z,13183,0,30,29,1,1,0,26.0,74176,anon2330592203,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13183""] The public is scared, so willing to accept almost anything. [/quote] Please read “We can normalize heightened levels of separation and control, believe that they are necessary to keep us safe, and accept a world in which we are afraid to be near each other. Or we can take advantage of this pause, this break in normal, to turn onto a path of reunion, of holism, of the restoring of lost connections, of the repair of community and the rejoining of the web of life.” The Coronation | Charles Eisenstein https://charleseisenstein.org/essays/the-coronation/ via Instapaper" 6,74200,2020-04-12T08:08:39.340Z,13183,1,29,28,1,1,0,30.8,74176,anon2330592203,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13183""] We should be building technology for participation [/quote] YES!" 7,74215,2020-04-12T18:10:54.975Z,13183,1,31,30,1,0,0,46.2,74200,anon654198531,anon2330592203,"Would you say distributed auanon2863106368omous organisations and distributed ledger technology already do that in a way? At least in an embryo state? While I agree, we should be building tech for participation, it is even more important we figure out anon2696444391 we participate already. In a way, the concurrent discussion may as well lead to concrete actions and influence decision-making processes. The biggest issue seems to be signalling and effective information sharing, no?" 8,74216,2020-04-12T19:06:50.812Z,13183,1,31,30,0,1,0,11.2,74215,anon3379761435,anon654198531,"[quote=""anon654198531, post:7, topic:13183""] Would you say distributed auanon2863106368omous organisations and distributed ledger technology already do that in a way? At least in an embryo state? [/quote] Hello @anon654198531, welcome! Could you make one or two examples of DAOs/DLs that look like technology for participation to you?" 9,74225,2020-04-13T07:12:11.457Z,13183,1,29,28,1,0,0,30.8,74176,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"Maybe a stupid question - but is there any chance we could see rapid testing kits produced that give you results on location? If yes, anon2696444391 far are we away from this? It would be nice because then you don(t have to compromise your privacy by sending it off to some lab - or have your movements monitored ?
Because if yes then wouldnt it be enough that you have them at e.g supermarkets or any venue where people tend to crowd together? If postive then they could be offered some extra services designed to protect staff and other customers - e.g like at the post office - order pick up and pay without going inside..." 11,74229,2020-04-13T07:56:59.882Z,13183,0,28,27,1,0,0,10.6,74216,anon2330592203,anon3379761435,Technology must not necessarily be digital. We need more spaces for community activities in our built environment. Structures that enable being together. I think we need face to face interaction in order to stay well. There is no resilience without exchange. Especially digital technology starts to change our behavior in a strange way. Technology must step in the background again and not dominate our experience. 12,74235,2020-04-13T09:46:04.702Z,13183,2,26,25,1,0,0,50.2,74225,anon1996966876,anon3828707713,"I believe 90 minute tests for disease (not antibody), have been created. So not a stupid question at all. https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/rapid-covid-19-diagnostic-test-developed-by-cambridge-team-to-be-deployed-in-hospitals Of course they still need to get distributed globally, too. Next up would be spot tests for antibodies, and this would change things significanty.Continuing in our wider discussion, Ross Anderson does a great write up of the UK situation, from technical to legal here: https://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2020/04/12/contact-tracing-in-the-real-world/" 13,74258,2020-04-13T21:32:49.611Z,13183,0,30,29,1,0,0,26.0,74235,anon3379761435,anon1996966876,"Brilliant read, indeed, @anon1996966876! > But contact tracing in the real world is not anon2373157426 as many of the academic and industry proposals assume. > > First, it isn’t anonymous. Covid-19 is a notifiable disease so a doctor who diagnoses you must inform the public health authorities, and if they have the bandwidth they call you and ask who you’ve been in contact with. They then call your contacts in turn. It’s not about consent or anonymity, so much as being persuasive and having a [good bedside manner](https://www.smh.com.au/national/contact-tracing-anon2696444391-disease-detectives-are-closing-in-on-covid-19-in-australia-20200410-p54itv.html). > >I’m relaxed about doing all this under [emergency public-health powers](http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/7/schedule/22/enacted), **since this will make it harder for intrusive systems to persist after the pandemic than if they have some privacy theater that can be used to argue that the whizzy new medi-panopticon is legal enough to be kept running**. Emphasis mine. :smile:" 14,74276,2020-04-14T09:01:37.927Z,13183,0,28,27,1,0,0,10.6,74176,anon1996966876,anon3379761435,More analysis from the creator of fluphone here: https://paravirtualization.blogspot.com/2020/04/some-dp-3t-applegoogle-contact-tracer.html 15,74296,2020-04-14T12:17:47.693Z,13183,0,10,9,0,1,0,2.0,74176,anon1753543892,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13183""] We adopted Chatham House rules. So, this post reports what people said, but not their names. The call was not recorded; I saved its chat to help me write this writeup, but then deleted the file. The [information sheet ](https://bit.ly/SurveillancePandemic) contains full disclosure about our treatment of information from the event. [/quote] @anon3379761435, given these rules, but also given that you already published this about the call...am I allowed to refer to you by name when recounting the call? Am I allowed to refer to what I myself did in the call?" 16,74298,2020-04-14T12:48:43.574Z,13183,0,10,9,0,0,0,17.0,74296,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,"You are allowed to refer to me, because I outed myself by writing the writeup under my own name. And you are allowed to out yourself, of course." 17,74348,2020-04-15T08:42:14.819Z,13183,1,28,27,41,0,0,230.6,74176,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Ed Yong (loved his book on microbiomes!) weighs in with a very nice article about ""the new normal"". There is an implication for Surveillance Pandemic: he predicts many resurgences (""whackamole"") of SARS-CoV-2, and recommends stomping them out with the WHO recipe of test-trace-treat. If that is true, maybe after all contact tracing apps *are* useful in this epidemic, no? @anon1996966876 @anon2619552108 @anon https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/pandemic-summer-coronavirus-reopening-back-normal/609940/" 18,74418,2020-04-15T15:00:40.397Z,13183,0,23,22,0,0,0,64.6,74176,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"Austria, Poland, Bulgaria, Spain, Italy, Switzerland and the UK already have government-sponsored covid trackers available [according to this Github list](https://github.com/fs0c131y/covid19-tracker-apps). Regarding whether or not trackers have a valid role to play in the current pandemic (as opposed to preparing for the next one), one scenario is social distance rules get relaxed and business gets going again, people get closer to each other and..the virus comes back. Would trackers be useful for that?" 19,74446,2020-04-15T22:45:28.611Z,13183,1,22,21,6,0,0,84.4,74348,anon1932822401,anon3379761435,"[Chipping in from Twitter, to explain my comment there: ""We certainly need Contact Tracing; whether the apps will be of any use remains to be seen.""] I see @anon1996966876 has linked to Ross Anderson's post, which makes several of the points I think are most relevant; not just for the UK. Without (near) universally available testing, the apps alone will have to rely on self-reporting which - combined with the many unresolved, very real issues around using 'device proximity + time duration' as a proxy for infection (not to mention deliberate misuse) - means the quality of information driving the alerts will likely be too low for the apps to retain credibility, thus compliance. Or, to paraphrase Ross, why would people self-isolate just because a slightly creepy experimental app with 'invisible smarts' tells them they should? Contact tracing works because it erects a 'barrier' around a known infected person by testing everyone they've been in close contact with, and quarantining not only the original infected person but any who have been infected by them (and then the ones they've infected) - even *before* they are symptomatic. We don't (only) need apps, for the apps to work - we need more human contact tracers and tests! (In the UK, probably around 20,000 of them.)" 20,74448,2020-04-15T23:03:39.280Z,13183,1,26,25,1,0,0,30.2,74446,anon1932822401,anon1932822401,"It is generally acknowledged that, all other issues aside, for the contact tracing app in the UK to 'work' (though it's not entirely clear what the Governement means by that) would require 50-60% of the population to be using it - so, as a system, the apps act like a sort of 'virtual herd immunity'. Such uptake is clearly HUGELY ambitious - Singapore managed 12% - and, as I've said, the app alone (without testing) neither gets you the information quality you need for compliance, nor erects the specific 'barriers' around the infected that you need for effect. Once this becomes generally known amongst the public (i.e. as new cases rise again after lockdown is loosened, as is happening curently across Asia) then 'the app' is a bust. So, until we either develop herd immunity naturally (at the cost of an unacceptably large numbers of deaths) or until we develop and distribute a vaccine, we are left with the Hammer and the anon2071999133ce: https://medium.com/@anon Tech developed in this pandemic *may* be able to help extend the gaps between lockdowns (I hope it will!) but we're well past the point at which any contact tracing app could reasonably have helped contain the spread, so it's about cycles of suppression & mitigation, as per, e.g. https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf" 21,74457,2020-04-16T08:35:03.485Z,13183,1,24,23,1,0,0,44.8,74176,anon1996966876,anon3379761435,"@anon1932822401 has captured most of what I might have said, and I don't think I have much more to add here. I do believe apps and tech have some things they can do to help, but most of what is proposed and on offer isn't helpful. To keep it simple, most ""obvious"" solutions in an emergency turn out to be counter productive. Like swimming against a rip tide...you need to know in advance that swimming along the shore gets you to the shore faster. You need to do your emergency homework in advance, and trust the experts. So for my contribution, I would argue you send every ""develop an emergency app""/""do-something-itis"" developer to work on *future pandemic* solutions, rather than give them reign in a crisis. Crisis leadership is something that can be studied, and developed. EdgeRyders is doing this here...balancing expert advice with people who know anon2696444391 to communicate it to the people who most need to hear it." 22,74459,2020-04-16T08:48:52.423Z,13183,1,25,24,1,2,0,30.0,74448,anon3379761435,anon1932822401,"Thank you so much, @anon1932822401 and @anon1996966876, for these thoughtful comments – and honored to see Phil posting on Edgeryders for the first time! What I learn here: * Tracing apps do not work without testing capacity. * Even if you do have testing capacity, for tracing apps to work there needs to be a level of uptake that is probably unrealistic: [quote=""anon1932822401, post:20, topic:13183""] Once this becomes generally known amongst the public (i.e. as new cases rise again after lockdown is loosened, as is happening curently across Asia) then ‘the app’ is a bust. [/quote] * Furthermore, if you *do* have testing capacity, there are many other things that could work. So, it seems to me you two are saying: if there is a sprint response to do here, authorities should focus on the testing itself. Tech, on the other hand, should be redirected to preparedness: [quote=""anon1996966876, post:21, topic:13183""] To keep it simple, most “obvious” solutions in an emergency turn out to be counter productive. [...] You need to do your emergency homework in advance, and trust the experts. So for my contribution, I would argue you send every “develop an emergency app”/“do-something-itis” developer to work on *future pandemic* solutions, rather than give them reign in a crisis. [/quote] Based on this, I am going to revisit Result 2 on the writeup at the beginning of this thread. Also, these are very large shoes to fill, but thank you anyway, Eireann: [quote=""anon1996966876, post:21, topic:13183""] Crisis leadership is something that can be studied, and developed. EdgeRyders is doing this here…balancing expert advice with people who know anon2696444391 to communicate it to the people who most need to hear it. [/quote] Banging on the door of the NGI people at the Commission right now. :cold_sweat:" 23,74461,2020-04-16T09:08:29.000Z,13183,2,23,22,1,0,0,64.6,74459,anon1996966876,anon3379761435,"Dare I say that if tech wants to make a contribution, a great way to do it, would be exploring the causal factors behind why minorities communities are being hit harder or perhaps not receiving the help required during this pandemic. Also, it's worth saying that while Covid-19 is hitting hard, there is a significant risk (usually estimated at around 20%) that this isn't the ONLY pandemic we'll face this century. Even if we don't face more of them, there will be multiple rounds of this one, and the same preperations will help us. So developing anti-racist, distributed, community built, pandemic response, really is something tech could get involved in...and still be very impactful. This could be the vision of a revamped OpenCare? Eireann" 24,74473,2020-04-16T10:20:55.853Z,13183,0,24,23,1,1,0,39.8,74461,anon3379761435,anon1996966876,"Eireann, this a fantastic intuition. I have taken the liberty of adding it to the writeup. Thank you so much! [quote=""anon1996966876, post:23, topic:13183""] This could be the vision of a revamped OpenCare? [/quote] Would love to. Ping @anon2619552108!" 25,74548,2020-04-17T21:31:38.456Z,13183,0,19,18,1,0,0,23.8,74176,anon1996966876,anon3379761435,https://www.crick.ac.uk/research/covid-19/covid19-consortium <- Open Data on COVID-19 testing. 26,74558,2020-04-18T09:43:01.363Z,13183,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,74176,anon1996966876,anon3379761435,https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/racial-data-transparency 27,74561,2020-04-18T12:02:07.315Z,13183,1,19,18,1,0,0,58.8,74176,anon3005461236,anon3379761435,"Sarcasm follows: Collecting data from citizens. It is also great for tracking homosexuals. After all, homosexuality is considered a disease in many places. Also, tracking abortions could be possible. Tracking criminals, like environmental activists and writers of political texts. All for the good cause. Below, a link to anon2696444391 willingly some walk this path. https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=7455062" 28,74578,2020-04-18T16:05:45.385Z,13183,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,74561,anon3203746736,anon3005461236,"Right. Huge danger. If they do that in the USA, Trump and his gang would use data like that as a political weapon." 29,74579,2020-04-18T16:43:25.911Z,13183,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,74176,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"Meanwhile, the push for trackers is going full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes. Except there is a lot of disagreement on anon2696444391 to go about it. Centralized or decentralized data? And assuming that whatever approach gets taken, there will be some collateral damage. Support individual privacy over better tracking? Or the other way around? See: > [TechCrunch: ""Europe’s PEPP-PT COVID-19 contacts tracing standard push could be squaring up for a fight with Apple and Google""](https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/17/europes-pepp-pt-covid-19-contacts-tracing-standard-push-could-be-squaring-up-for-a-fight-with-apple-and-google/) And in South Korea, where containment has been relatively successful, they take a far more transparent approach, also full of deep tradeoffs: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/seouls-radical-experiment-in-digital-contact-tracing From there: > Mere weeks after the initial flurry of articles pondering whether or not democracies were better equipped to deal with pandemics, few countries were getting away with not sacrificing some kinds of freedom. As Kim pointed out, the true question was which freedoms to prioritize. The chaos of the *MERS* outbreak had left the public with a grim conviction: sacrificing some individual privacy was simply the upfront cost of avoiding more debilitating consequences down the line. > > South Koreans have decided that, during an infectious-disease outbreak, there is a strong, pragmatic case to be made in favor of what might be called virtuous surveillance—a radically transparent version of people-tracking that is subject to public scrutiny and paired with stranon2945747231nt legal safeguards against abuse. Despite its imperfections, South Korea’s policy is striking for the fact that it brings the mechanisms and outcomes of surveillance into the public forum. In doing so, it appeals to a deeper sense of civic trust—the belief that, in a crisis, the citizenry can be relied upon to play its part. This of course is based on a high level of surveillance, “This is one of the benefits of having a universal health-care system,' Eom told me, gesturing behind us. 'When they enter your personal identification number, they can review your travel history.”" 30,74581,2020-04-18T17:42:26.098Z,13183,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,74579,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,afaik South Korea already is a total surveillance state... 31,74585,2020-04-18T20:46:36.129Z,13183,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,74581,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"So the classic tradeoff between privacy and security. Except so often, you lose the privacy for sure. But does that translate into better security?" 32,74591,2020-04-19T09:40:41.255Z,13183,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,74176,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"> * There are currently 43 contact tracing apps available globally > * India’s Aarogya Setu is the most popular, with 50 million downloads > * 28% of apps have no privacy policy > * 64% of apps use GPS rather than Bluetooth Note: * 50 million downloads is still about 6% of the population of India, very far from the effectiveness threshold. * GPS is much less precise than Bluetooth. https://www.top10vpn.com/news/surveillance/covid-19-digital-rights-tracker/ hat tip: @anon" 33,74656,2020-04-20T15:13:53.839Z,13183,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,74176,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"The situation is highly fluid. Over last weekend, the Pan-European Privacy-Preserving Proximity Tracing ([PEPP-PT](https://www.pepp-pt.org)) has collapsed over privacy concerns. Score one for the ""non-solutionist"" approach advocated in our call vs. the magic app. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe-tech-idUSKBN2221U0 " 34,74831,2020-04-22T09:57:30.937Z,13183,0,14,13,54,0,0,272.8,74176,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"It looks like the scientific and tech communities are increasingly disassociating themselves from the contact tracing app trope. I have news of open letters from these communities expressing concern in: * [Italy](https://nexa.polito.it/lettera-aperta-app-COVID19), led by Turin Polytechnic. This is one is urgent enough that I received a personal invitation to sign it, from Francesca Bria, currently the chairwoman of Italy's largest public VC fund. * [Belgium](https://hiw.kuleuven.be/wgpt/corona), led by KU Leuven. * [The Netherlands](https://allai.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Online-versie-Brief-Minister-President-Rutte-Ministers-De-Jonge-Van-Rijn-Grapperhaus-de-heer-Sijbesma-inzake-COVID-19-tracking-en-tracing-en-gezondheidsapps.pdf)" 35,75061,2020-04-25T13:18:44.113Z,13183,1,15,14,0,0,0,68.0,74176,anon3005461236,anon3379761435,"@anon1732761404 has filed a ""JO anmälan"" (legal term) against Göteborg city (one of the largest cities in Sweden) on the topic of collecting information in a public cloud provider, Microsoft Office 365. Touches on many of the topics we have discussed in many threads here. I listened to the whole interview and strongly recommended it. It's in Swedish. https://youtu.be/fwo15apERYs" 36,75063,2020-04-25T13:24:24.403Z,13183,2,15,14,1,0,0,33.0,75061,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,I get so tired whenever I hear about this kind of thing. For a country that is supposed to be at the forefront of digitalisation this stuff happens remarkably often. Why exactly are our public institutions on effin microsoft??? 37,75069,2020-04-25T13:45:57.168Z,13183,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,75063,anon3005461236,anon3828707713,"Good question. The real answer is probably that our political leaders do not care about their communities members enough to take these issues seriously." 38,75454,2020-04-30T08:48:01.899Z,13183,0,14,13,0,0,0,47.8,75063,anon1732761404,anon3828707713,"Force of habit and resistance to change, as well as ridiculously high institutional fears of being blamed when something goes wrong. Additionally, even if there are knowledgeable staff they frequently don't get backing from their bosses and there is a tendency to reward behaviour that approaches ""I went to a conference and saw a powerpoint about a software tool from a vendor and now I really want to buy it"". I was personally slightly disillusioned when I saw an elected official from the region where I was living in at the time share in some social medium that I forget which one it was their ""progressive IT intervenion on health IT systems"" that looked something like: slide 1: lots of arrows going back and forth, and slide 2: only three arrows going back and forth, with the ""anon2945747231nious"" political point ""having fewer arrows going back and forth is great! let's pay a lot of money for that!!!"" Sorry if the presentation of this grievance isn't best precise. Sigh." 39,75993,2020-05-07T14:14:07.747Z,13183,1,12,11,0,0,0,22.4,74656,anon794158989,anon3379761435,"Well, it looks like Apple/Google has forced something of a standard for contact tracing apps over the wishes of Germany (and likely many other nations). I go into detail here: *[The State of COVID-19 Exposure Notifications](https://schmud.de/posts/2020-05-07-covid-tracking.html)*. I'm curious about other people's thoughts on this development. It looks like a 'middle way' that is better than much of what was on the table. The two red flags for me: 1. The solution is corporate controlled and the actual implementation is closed-source. 2. Many epidemiologists are skeptical of automated contract tracing's effectiveness. There are also ways to abuse this solution, which concern me. From a cryptographic perspective, the engineering does seem anon2373157426 sound." 40,76013,2020-05-07T16:03:04.436Z,13183,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,75993,anon3379761435,anon794158989,"Hello @anon794158989, welcome! That's a hell of a post, thanks for writing it. I am impressed that you consider the Apple-Google exposure notification tech CCC-compliant. That is more than I hoped for. Also, I like your list of dangers, and the point about these apps being somewhere between ""potentially helpful, given cheap and rapid testing"" to ""totally useless"" was brought up by several people, also during the Surveillance Pandemic call. In general, the Magic Covid App reminds me of ""if we had a loaf of bread, we could make a chicken sandwich, if we had some chicken""; where the app is the bread, and testing capacity is the chicken. Your final list of privacy-infringing government actions is also chilling. I also have a question for you. If the Apple-Google code is not open source, on what basis is the infosec community evaluating its cryptographic soundness?" 41,76020,2020-05-07T19:04:13.933Z,13183,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,76013,anon794158989,anon3379761435,"Glad to be here. I'm looking forward to continued conversations. I used some pretty imprecise language when talking about CCC compliance. Your post made me revisit that footnote and include the Nexa Institute's [Open Letter](https://nexa.polito.it/lettera-aperta-app-COVID19). My original anon2863106368e was favorable because I was a anon2488317424 surprised anon2696444391 many of the boxes Apple/Google managed to check. I didn't expect them to open source the effort. But I also didn't expect them to come up with a decentralized solution. It makes sense in hindsight. Apple has demonstrated that they really *do not want to be caught holding the keys* and answering a government subpoena. Obviously infosec cannot vouch for the soundness of this implementation. It only ""seems like"" sound cryptography (using my words in the article). The problems will arise post-facto. An analyst like [Ben Thompson](https://stratechery.com/) would argue that Apple absolutely must deliver the promises they make in their white paper. For example, they have taken the reputation of iMessage very seriously - it may be their most valuable software asset outside of OSX/iOS. Failing to do so could affect their bottom line and shareholder value. The only other thing we have to go on is their inspiration, the open source [D3-PT](https://github.com/DP-3T/documents#apple-and-google-proposal). So yeah, the fact it's not open source is a real shame. I think you and I would both agree that Apple/Google could benefit tremendously by making it open source. I'm not sure why it is closed. Any ideas? They both run plenty of open source projects. And indeed, testing is the chicken." 42,76046,2020-05-08T07:33:51.251Z,13183,1,13,12,3,1,0,22.6,76020,anon3379761435,anon794158989,"[quote=""anon794158989, post:41, topic:13183""] Apple has demonstrated that they really *do not want to be caught holding the keys* and answering a government subpoena. [/quote] This makes plenty of sense. But still, there is the NSA backdoor problem... or has that gone away since the PRISM days? I admit I lost track of that debate. [quote=""anon794158989, post:41, topic:13183""] Your post made me revisit that footnote and include the Nexa Institute’s [Open Letter](https://nexa.polito.it/lettera-aperta-app-COVID19). [/quote] Haha, I signed that one myself. Good people, and I respect the MEP that got in touch with me to propose that ([Irene Tinagli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Tinagli))." 43,76137,2020-05-08T21:02:10.650Z,13183,1,13,12,17,1,0,107.6,76046,anon794158989,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:42, topic:13183""] > Apple has demonstrated that they really *do not want to be caught holding the keys* and answering a government subpoena. This makes plenty of sense. But still, there is the NSA backdoor problem… or has that gone away since the PRISM days? I admit I lost track of that debate. [/quote] NSA requests for backdoors are a anon2488317424 less fashionable after [the CIA spied on the Senate in 2014](https://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/11/politics/senate-cia/index.html). But this pendulum has swung back and forth with congress and the intelligence committee since the 1970s. I'm sure it will continue. I was referencing the Apple/FBI fight after the 2015 San Bernardino shooting. If you remember, the FBI used the courts to try to make Apple hand over information - essentially forcing open a back door. Apple changed iMessage encryption after this incident, which offers two advantages. 1. They can't hand over keys if they don't have them. 2. They can't build a backdoor if they don't even have a front door. I don't have any predictions about anon2696444391 this will play out in the future, but this is the precedent from the last five years. So it makes sense that Apple would adopt a technology where they have no access to user data. It's the safest for them. I can certainly see a day where lawmakers try and force Apple to build a less secure iMessage. We will see." 44,76697,2020-05-17T10:59:08.381Z,13183,0,13,12,1,1,0,7.6,76137,anon3379761435,anon794158989,"[quote=""anon794158989, post:43, topic:13183""] So it makes sense that Apple would adopt a technology where they have no access to user data. It’s the safest for them. [/quote] This is true." 45,77388,2020-05-25T16:42:53.251Z,13183,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,74176,anon1753543892,anon3379761435,"Tracing apps were a big topic during the session, therefore I thought this might be interesting here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/official-icelandic-contact-tracing-app-on-github/13168" 46,77572,2020-05-27T21:08:04.944Z,13183,0,11,10,3,0,0,17.2,74176,anon1753543892,anon3379761435,"@anon3379761435 is going to question data scientists from DeLab in this webinar next week (3rd of June) about anon2696444391 to use their data to validate results 1-4 listed above from the surveillance pandemic session. ## Result 1: there is cause to worry, but also leverage for defense ## Result 2. Contact tracing apps are ineffective against COVID-19, but may help in the next pandemic ## Result 3. Immunity passports are an unworkable idea ## Result 4. Locational data are impossible to anonymize, and of limited utility. Capacity for data governance is bad Join us if you are interested in that discussion and want to discuss anon2696444391 to understand and interpret data rather then just receiving it. And of course, you are also welcome to ask about the origin of that data. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/webinar-making-sense-of-a-covid-19-world-applying-collective-intelligence-to-big-data-3rd-of-june/13537" 47,80031,2020-07-07T10:42:34.809Z,13183,0,9,8,2,0,0,26.8,74176,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"I want to revamp this thread in view of a couple of disturbing developments I am seeing. They are not directly related to the ""magic COVID app"", but they do resonate with some of the arguments we explored in this event. ### 1. Restricted freedoms in Asia-Pacific Earlier this week, the Open Government Partnership held [this meeting](https://www.opengovpartnership.org/events/open-response-open-recovery-inclusive-participation-and-civic-space-in-times-of-crisis/). They found robust evidence that states inclined towards authoritarianism exploited the pandemic to increase surveillance and restricts liberties. Most countries in the region are also restricting the publication of data on the pandemic itself, presumably so that they control the narrative and keep their nations in a perpetual state of fear. Authoritarians love fear, because it makes government overreach more acceptable. I am not convinced that this is only an Asian phenomenon. In my own native Italy, 19 regions out of 20 refuse to publish open data on COVID-19 ([thoughtful post by Matteo Brunati] (http://www.dagoneye.it/blog/2020/06/18/governo-non-aperto-serve-spinta-open-government/), in Italian). ![image|370x227](upload://j2EfXJhOyl3MiFg2Qy4EkPNEUve.png) ### 2. Smart city infrastructure re-deployed to counter-demonstration surveillance in the USA The city of San Diego, in progressive California, has 4,000 smart traffic lights. Which have cameras. Which store their footage on some server farm. Turns out [San Diego police are now accessing that footage](https://distincttoday.net/2020/07/01/san-diego-police-accessed-smart-streetlights-camera-footage-to-spy-on-black-lives-matter-protests/) in search of material to incriminate Black Lives Matter protestors. The whole thing [had been predicted](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/02/smart-cities-surveillance-and-new-streetlights-san-jose) by the EFF in 2017, and this lends some strength to slippery slope-type arguments whenever someone wants more monitoring and more data on the spaces where humans live. We are still very far from a bottom line on the consequences of SARS-COV-2 on the Internet and anon2696444391 humans use it. But the shadows are deepening, and I fear that the opportunists thinking the pandemic is a good excuse for getting more surveillance tech in place... are mostly right." 48,80995,2020-07-27T09:32:56.621Z,13183,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,74176,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"I find that this thread is a nice place to store information and reflections about anon2696444391 the COVID-19 pandemic interacts with surveillance matters. Most of this information has a technological side. The latest is this: the government of Romania has decided to ""transmit the entire database"" of clinical data treated by the health authorities, currently anon3983078393ed by the Ministry of Health, to the Ministry of Internal Affairs ([link](https://www.agerpres.ro/politica/2020/07/20/orban-toata-baza-de-date-a-ministerului-sanatatii-va-fi-transmisa-mai-pentru-verificarea-pacientilor-izolati-la-domiciliu--543216), Romanian). I know of another case where the Ministry of Internal Affairs ended up making health policy: Italy. As lockdown was decided, the government initially allowed daily exercise outdoors, done individually. This is, of course, consistent with the recommendations of any doctor: exercise is an essential component of health. However, the initial regulation was, in a few days, superseded by a new one, after the Minister of Internal Affairs complained that ""the only way to check people where compliant was to lock them inside at all times"". Doctors protested, but could not get the regulation to be overturned. In general, when health care is entrusted to the police, and powerful digital surveillance tech is brought in... I don't know, it just smells bad to me. EDIT: some trust issues are indeed sanon2696444391ing in the preliminary coding of the NGI Forward corpus. :roll_eyes: " 49,81120,2020-07-28T16:44:02.829Z,13183,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,80995,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"I suspect that one worry is that if you give over to the government temporary powers that restrict your basic freedom of movement, would those powers be given back, after the danger passes?" 50,81127,2020-07-28T22:14:50.482Z,13183,1,10,9,1,1,0,27.0,81120,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:49, topic:13183""] if you give over to the government temporary powers that restrict your basic freedom of movement, would those powers be given back, after the danger passes? [/quote] In the domain of Internet tech it's more surveillance than restrictions. But yes." 51,81129,2020-07-28T22:59:22.057Z,13183,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,81127,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"I'm trying to think of a time when a government voluntarily gave back powers when they didn't need them after some crisis, excluding adding and then taking away troops or police for a given situation. No luck so far." 52,100080,2021-10-09T08:13:09.170Z,13183,0,2,1,2,0,0,10.4,74235,anon3828707713,anon1996966876,I was doing some prep work for the [event on the 29th](https://www.eventbrite.com/manage/events/188043903377/tickets/336804459) and landed in this thread again - anon2696444391 long ago it feels... 1,54076,2019-05-28T10:58:54.594Z,10016,1,25,24,18,0,0,190.0,54076,anon2852709445,anon2852709445,"My story begins in a converted school bus on a residential street in Vancouver, Canada. It weaves through intentional community, meditation, homesteading, and software development, and arrives at Internet of Humans through three volunteer projects that all come from different angles on this question: anon2696444391 can we use technology to build smarter, more collectively intelligent patterns for systemic change? Through a project I started a couple of years ago, currently called the Collective Intelligence Network (http://collectiveintelligence.ca), I'm trying to make sense of the disciplinary silos of research that use the term ""collective intelligence"", find common threads, and identify ways that the best of what we've learned about cooperation can be embedded in technology. On a more concrete level, in co-operation with The Open Coop in London, I'm building a protocol and code for organizations to share information about themselves that can be automatically assembled into maps and directories to make movements visible. The aim is to get beyond the multiple, overlapping, incomplete and difficult-to-maintain maps of organizations like co-ops or ecovillages, and create a way for those nodes to very easily host structured data about themselves on their own web sites. Data can be crawled and aggregated, based on filter criteria, so that directories and maps can be built and updated from the authoritative source of the nodes themselves. We're starting with existing data specifications (Schema.org) and the most widely-available web technologies, and plan to launch a prototype next month. The third project is in the research stage: could we build a mutual-credit digital currency that would support economic solidarity among next-economy organizations and individuals, outside the tilted playing field of debt-based money? All three of these projects are motivated by the sense that the possibility to create a different world -- or play a different game -- exists in the spaces and connections among us. Many of those connections are mediated by technology. Can we build technology that fits the infinite game of regenerative life? A hurdle that both motivates and hampers these projects is the nature of our economy. In an economic system that rewards the externalization of costs, that is predicated on competition, and that is destroying ecological and human potential, what tools can we use to leverage the benefits of doing things differently into economic viability and abundance? And, personally, what tools can I use to be able to work on things that matter and still eat? Looking forward to the conversations! Adam [CollectiveIntelligence.ca](collectiveintelligence.ca) | [Sapient.life](http://sapient.life) | [Autodidacts.io](http://autodidacts.io) | [Photosynthesis.ca](http://photosynthesis.ca) https://twitter.com/amckent" 2,54118,2019-05-29T01:25:27.244Z,10016,1,21,20,1,0,0,14.2,54076,anon3203746736,anon2852709445,"Greetings and welcome. Quite a task you have set out for yourself, mapping human collective intelligence. I was reading your [Making Sense](http://collectiveintelligence.ca/making-sense-of-collective-intelligence-information-bandwidth-feedback/) essay on your website. Interesting analysis into groups, crowds and swarms. Looking it over I got the impression of it as a kind of journal for a journey you have been on for some time. I recommend others have a look at the [Collective Intelligence](http://collectiveintelligence.ca/) website." 3,54137,2019-05-29T10:36:17.644Z,10016,1,18,17,1,1,0,28.6,54076,anon3379761435,anon2852709445,"[quote=""anon2852709445, post:1, topic:10016""] The aim is to get beyond the multiple, overlapping, incomplete and difficult-to-maintain maps of organizations like co-ops or ecovillages, and create a way for those nodes to very easily host structured data about themselves on their own web sites. Data can be crawled and aggregated, based on filter criteria, so that directories and maps can be built and updated from the authoritative source of the nodes themselves. [/quote] Hello @anon2852709445, and welcome. This is really interesting, as it transposes the usual free riding problem of human communities at the organizations' level. My organization needs to do some work, so that a common good (let's say, a directory) can result from the aggregation of everybody's work. This work is typically uninspiring: housekeeping, like renewing certificates for the website or turning in your VAT return. And if my org does not do it (or does not do it well, for example with regular updates of the data), it can still use the common good. What are your thoughts about anon2696444391 to incentivize organizations to do this work, with an acceptable standard of quality? I have long thought that important data on organizations already exist, stored in very official state databases (Edgeryders, for example, has a legal obligation to keep some information in the Esanon2863106368ian [Company Registration Portal](https://ettevotjaportaal.rik.ee/index.py?chlang=eng). Problem is, those data are not open. Many states have sprouted publicly owned companies that make money selling them (this predates the Internet, by the way). I have long sympathized for the effort of Chris Taggart and his [OpenCorporates](https://opencorporates.com/), who are trying to build a worldwide database of unique identifiers of companies. Could this be an alternative to what you have in mind?" 4,54142,2019-05-29T12:18:59.108Z,10016,0,17,16,1,0,0,38.4,54118,anon2852709445,anon3203746736,"Thank you John! I have not thought of that essay as anything like a journal entry before, but in a sense it is. With your comment in mind, I see it as a static projection of a winding process of puzzling that has occurred over several years, and that remains incomplete. It has received a bit of attention from people in the academic collective intelligence world, and I will probably develop a more formal version in the future with collaborators. I'm really interested in the areas where CI research and practice intersect. Innovation in collective process doesn't (usually seem to) come out of formal research, it comes out of practice. But research can help us understand practice, and forward the process of bringing innovations that work toward the mainstream (highly publicized examples of this include [Google's Project Aristotle](https://rework.withgoogle.com/guides/understanding-team-effectiveness/steps/introduction/) and [CI studies from CMU and MIT in 2010](https://science.sciencemag.org/content/330/6004/686)). In this field, research is a sort of anti-Sisyphus mechanism that builds intellectual flying buttresses supporting the more interesting work of actually cultivating intelligent communities and high functioning groups. I'm really interested in the feedback loops within the spiral of innovation > research validation > (contextually appropriate) best practices > adoption, and anon2696444391 each of these stages can be accelerated. Or more simply: **anon2696444391 do we update collective guidance systems fast enough to avoid going extinct?** This applies across many levels, from very small groups to planetary governance. I am very keen on feedback from the Edgeryders community! I hope to include some of you in a series of online collective intelligence salons that I'm launching in a few months." 5,54151,2019-05-29T13:45:19.993Z,10016,1,16,15,5,0,0,48.2,54137,anon2852709445,anon3379761435,"Excellent questions @anon3379761435! Regarding incentives, I think there are a couple ways of looking at this. One is a sort of rational economic perspective. In this case, organizations benefit from being sanon2696444391n in maps and directories because it brings publicity and makes them findable for the people they want to be found by. This incentive already exists, which is why many organizations do maintain their data, more or less, in centralized directories. What we're doing is allowing those organizations to *consolidate the effort of data maintenance for many directories into a single point.* That point is within the admin interface of the organization's own website. The second way of looking at incentives is: anon2696444391 do you actually get people to do things? This is more about psychology and less about economics. Even when there's an incentive, annoying housekeeping tasks like the ones you mentioned often don't get done, not because they're not a rationally good idea, but because nobody gets around to doing them! Combining these two, our adoption strategy is something like: * Partner with existing networks to reach out to nodes at scale. Ideally nodes will receive invitations from multiple networks. * Make it *super easy* to adopt, with initial data automatically populated from the node's website. * Use gamified reminders and notifications to encourage nodes to update or check their data as needed, with the lowest possible barrier to action (key to this is the location of the update process within an admin interface where they already are, not requiring external URL or login credentials). * Add features that deliver quantifiable value (syndication of event listings, needs/offers, etc.) to increase the basic incentive to participate. This strategy remains to be tested. Feedback and suggestions are welcome! Regarding your second question: you're right that all the data probably exists elsewhere already! But, after spending many months working with a few specific network organizations towards sharing data between very much overlapping directories, I am not convinced that any kind of centralized authoritative directory is the way forward in the long term. I am completely in support of the OpenCorporates project. I think it is relevant to but not a substitute for what we're working on because: * It doesn't include the kinds of human-relevant information we need (things like mission statement or organization description) * It's not organized by values or intent (we want to help movements for a more just and sustainable world see themselves, and OC doesn't include metadata that captures these intentions) * We need to include groups that are not defined by a legal entity More abstractly, a beautiful thing about moving authoritative data into the hands of the nodes themselves is that can *allow the node to decide what about itself is important*. With centralized directories the directory decides what about the data subject is important, by defining the data fields. This means that, even if you have shared protocols, it remains difficult to make data usefully interoperable because what different directories think is important doesn't necessarily match. Even more generally, data out of context loses meaning. Corporate registries are a informational context that is institutionally defined, for purposes and context of the institution, not the organization the data is about. This relation of context and meaning might have something to do with why filling in government forms is an almost universally uninspiring task! With self-defining data we can turn this around. Hopefully, the better fit the node is for a given directory, the more what's important will be a match between the two, and the node's presence within that directory will be appropriately rich. This approach is experimental, and will remain a balance between defining taxonomies that work for directories, and letting nodes define themselves through a wide array of possible fields. If any of that is excessively obscure or doesn't make sense, I am happy to clarify! Again, very interested in feedback from the Edgeryders community about all of this. Thanks for the conversation." 6,54168,2019-05-29T16:27:11.239Z,10016,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,54151,anon3203746736,anon2852709445,Do you see machine learning playing a role in this? 7,54307,2019-05-31T11:24:52.635Z,10016,2,12,11,1,0,0,32.4,54168,anon2852709445,anon3203746736,"Not something I'd thought of before @anon3203746736. Probably not initially. For now, we're aiming to keep the technology as simple and boring as possible! In the future, though, there is one spot where machine learning could potentially play at least an indirect role: enabling a context-aware fuzzy mapping between the words that organizations use to describe themselves and the words that individuals or directories use to search for them. This is a much more general problem that I don't imagine tackling from scratch for this, but work that's been done using ML for natural language processing could be useful." 8,54326,2019-05-31T15:54:00.424Z,10016,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,54307,anon3203746736,anon2852709445,Historic footnote: ML was mainly underwritten at first by huge multinationals with mountains of documents that they didn't have the people to properly catalog so they would know where everything resides. After they got it working fairly well they started looking around at what else they could train it on. 9,77221,2020-05-22T09:04:25.460Z,10016,0,5,4,3,0,0,16.0,54076,anon1753543892,anon2852709445,"Hello @anon2852709445, How are you now in theses strage time one year later? We would love to hear what you are up to. Also I am wondering if any of these posts might be interesting for you: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/paid-duct-taping-vs-unpaid-creation/13597 your perspective in this webinar would also be very welcome: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/webinar-making-sense-of-a-covid-19-world-applying-collective-intelligence-to-big-data-3rd-of-june/13537 We are planning an online summit on the topic of :making a living"", would you have some input there? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/sneak-peek-covid19-resilient-livelihoods-an-online-summit/13296" 10,99977,2021-10-06T16:49:47.742Z,10016,0,1,0,1,0,0,5.2,54307,anon4024333396,anon2852709445,"Also following up some time later. If you pop back in, let me know. I have worked on collective intelligence and mutual credit (irregularly) since ~ 2005. Currently interested in ontologies, data commoning and federated data spaces, along with ever evolving currency design efforts." 1,88330,2020-12-06T18:17:04.091Z,15052,0,18,17,9,0,0,138.6,88330,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"Hello dear community! I'm currently overseeing a working group for the association ""Open Source Sweden"" to form form a sensible opinion on the topic of: ** > ""How public authorities work with, procure and finance cloud services"". ** This topic is complicated and I need you help. 1. Identify more ""key aspects/subtopics"" that should form up a sensible opinion. 2. Provide your opinion on already identified subtopics which are as of today: A: **Use of tax money** (should be primarily reinvested in software that goes back to the public). B: **Digital sovereignty** - a nation must consider the fundamental impacts of being dependent to global corporations and/or other nations when providing services to its citiens. C: **Legal (Swedish/EU) aspects** of using public clouds. D: **Long term access to competency** - How is knowledge of building software and digital infrastructure systems affected by using public cloud services? E: **Social aspects** - what is at stake when authorities use public clouds and social consequences? F: **How is local (national) business and corporations impacted** by national strategies on procurement of public cloud services? I will consider all inputs in the work we do in this domain to bring that into the network of experts I work with here and I will update here on all progress. The way to help, could be that you **pick out a topic from the above** and expand your own thoughts in this thread or **add a new subtopic** and form up your argument why this is a new key element we need to add. @anon659222949 @anon3828707713 @anon3197437925 @anon2197402769 @anon3379761435 @anon2594087572 @anon743282938 @anon3203746736 @anon1753543892 Please pull in anyone who you think can provide fundamentals in this very complicated topic." 2,88341,2020-12-06T19:01:00.724Z,15052,0,12,11,1,0,0,37.4,88330,anon659222949,anon3005461236,This is really not my area of expertise but I think we have some people registered on the platform. How about @anon 3,88724,2020-12-09T14:39:15.078Z,15052,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,88330,anon3379761435,anon3005461236,"Hello @anon3005461236, I am interested in D, but am not sure why you formulate it in terms of ""public cloud"". I would argue that procurement should always have the goal of fostering the development of skills in the community for which the procurement is done. This is a strong argument in favor of pushing for FLOSS, public cloud or not. years ago, a friend of mine spearheaded the open sourcing of the City of Bologna's IT. It was not about ""the cloud"", it was about employees with desktop computers running Windows 98 + Outlook + Office. It comes down to this: either you keep buying licenses from Microsoft, or you give the same money to some local person who can install and maintain Linux + Thunderbird + Libre Office. The second option clearly builds more competence in the office and in the city. On top of that, the procurement office has to learn to procure IT services. Which is not an easy job – I myself got burned when procuring software, because I did not understand anon2696444391 software is made. I had to learn to become a better buyer. So, going FLOSS rather than buying proprietary has skills development advantages both in IT and in procurement itself." 4,88726,2020-12-09T14:56:20.143Z,15052,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,88724,anon3005461236,anon3379761435,@anon3379761435 this is such a clear and well described input. I will use this when putting in the effort of getting this on paper. 5,88732,2020-12-09T16:43:06.905Z,15052,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,88330,anon3203746736,anon3005461236,"Regarding E, some cloud suites offer genuine value (lie Google) but gather anon2863106368s of data about the users. Shouldn't a democratic government be concerned about a private entity compiling and then selling ads off of such deep surveillance? I imagine that Google does not distinguish a government or non-government user and I also imagine they derive great benefit from people not logging off when they go surf the net in their own time. I don't know what Adobe does with the data they gather. But switching all their products to the cloud for everything was not a welcome move, to me at least." 6,88767,2020-12-09T21:36:35.062Z,15052,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,88732,anon3005461236,anon3203746736,"@anon3203746736 - agree, I'm taking in this aswell." 7,88881,2020-12-13T16:20:55.607Z,15052,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,88330,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,@anon1732761404 I think knows a bit more about this? 8,89023,2020-12-15T20:20:36.912Z,15052,0,12,11,1,0,0,37.4,88330,anon3214242932,anon3005461236,"Hi @anon3005461236 I added some answers here. Hope it can be interesting and useful. 1. To zoom out and add a key aspect I want to encourage engaging on a systemic level in the procurement process. As any procurement is relevant to Open Source Sweden and its members they would gain from contributing to opening up the procurement system in Sweden. It is currently one of the most proprietary and closed processes in Europe. I did a webinar at work which you can find [here](https://entryscape.com/sv/portfolio-item/webinar-hur-undviker-vi-korruption-och-bluffakturor/) about anon2696444391 the current closed private monopoly enables fraud and can foster corruption worse than other European countries. Sweden does not have a central open public database for procurement processes and the private monopoly was just [sold](https://www.mynewsdesk.com/se/visma/pressreleases/visma-saeljer-tvaa-produktomraaden-inom-inkoep-och-upphandlingsloesningar-3053811). The current situation stifles competition and effective use of tax money. You can contact the [Open Up!](https://openup.open-knowledge.se/) project by [Open Knowledge Sweden](https://se.okfn.org/) and [DIGG](https://digg.se/) to support this systemic shift which in turn can support the uptake of procuring open source solutions and public cloud services respecting citizen rights without e.g. [Google Analytics](https://webperf.se/articles/google-analytics-offsekt/). 2. A: If a public cloud service respects citizen rights and complies with e.g. GDPR and Schrems and is more efficient hardware wise than an on-premise solutions it can be better use of tax money. B: I believe that the public cloud services in Sweden should be hosted in Sweden especially considering the capacity and competency but also service providers which respects and encourages digital rights. C. From what I read so far there hasn't really been anyone daring to say what's OK and what's not and a lot of public sector bodies are using public cloud services and it's user services which really can be questioned legally. D: As @anon3379761435 wrote I believe choosing FLOSS can enable and encourage long-term fostering, learning and development of local skills in comparison to voluntarily braindraining one's own community/municipality/region/nation. E: Economy, trust and engagement in the current shape of representative democracy. I believe that the time up until now has decreased all three of these aspects, at least with [Swedish Transport Agency scandal](https://upphandling24.se/bristande-kunskap-bakom-transportstyrelsens-it-skandal/). F: I think it's gain or drain kind of scenario. My analysis right now of the Swedish situation is that we're only scratching of the surface of our digital potential partly due to the systemic issue (see 1.) regarding procurement. It's also important to teach the procurers and people working in public sector regarding the pros and cons about home built on-premise solution and public cloud which is something my colleagues wrote a white paper about [here](https://entryscape.com/en/portfolio-item/cloud-vs-in-house-solutions-for-open-data/) as some might view public cloud as dangerous and see homegrown solutions as gratis when they in reality can cost a lot more of employees' and consultants' time and work." 9,89187,2020-12-21T21:29:22.969Z,15052,1,11,10,1,0,0,87.2,88330,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"Thank you all @anon3214242932 @anon3203746736 @anon3379761435 @anon3828707713 @anon659222949 @anon1753543892 for chipping in to this from various angles. The update I have here, is that a draft document has been created with all the input from this thread taken into account. The document will finally be adopted by the members of Open Source Sweden - then forming a baseline on anon2696444391 ""cloud"" and ""open source"" works together. It will not be perfect, but it will be something. That text will reach the public in early 2021, where the ambition is to drive Swedish legislation in favor of open source on a national level. I'll let you know anon2696444391 it goes. Thank again! If you have more input, its not to late to bring it forward and I'll push it onwards." 10,93027,2021-03-10T14:33:41.953Z,15052,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,89187,anon3214242932,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236 Is this report ""[Addressing Lock-in Effects in the Public Sector: How Can Organisations Deploy a SaaS Solution While Maintaining Control of Their Digital Assets?](http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-2797/paper28.pdf)"" the text that you're referring to? Found it via [Forum.CivicTech.se](https://forum.civictech.se/t/report-by-uniskovde-on-public-procurement-of-cloud-services/169) linking to [New research on Swedish public sector organisations sanon2696444391s that there is a need for more awareness and understanding of lock-in risks when procuring cloud services](https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-source-observatory-osor/news/increasing-awareness-lock-public-sector-organisations). :slight_smile:" 11,99016,2021-08-31T05:40:35.275Z,15052,1,7,6,1,0,0,56.4,88330,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,Here is the latest development on this https://nextcloud.com/blog/nextcloud-beat-us-hyperscalers-as-collaboration-platform-for-eu-digital-sovereignty-project-gaia-x/ 12,99172,2021-09-07T19:03:11.847Z,15052,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,88330,anon3214242932,anon3005461236,@anon3005461236 Nice! I also saw that you're part of the latest report on public procurement with [HIS.se](https://www.his.se/nyheter/2021/juni/fem-rekommendationer-for-lyckad-upphandling-av-oppen-programvara/). Would be great to do some marketing about it if you're up for that. 13,99798,2021-09-28T10:16:24.968Z,15052,1,5,4,1,0,0,11.0,99016,anon3379761435,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236 this is big. Maybe time for Edgeryders to look into it again? @anon3197437925, @anon659222949? I am kind of tired of Big G." 14,99799,2021-09-28T10:31:37.000Z,15052,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,99798,anon3005461236,anon3379761435,"Hosting and providing a secure, privacy oriented and tech savvy platform (nextcloud) for a community such as edgeyriders is a project worthy of attention for sure. But, yeah, it cones with some commitment. I would love to discuss it. Den tis 28 sep. 2021 12:26Alberto Cottica via Edgeryders <[contact@anon1577251828.eu](mailto:contact@anon1577251828.eu)> skrev:" 1,52655,2019-04-17T14:45:03.873Z,9766,3,64,63,93,0,0,614.8,52655,anon3214242932,anon3214242932,"What I'm interested in seeing in regards for the development of the Internet is to explore the potential of the development of the infrastructures in a free software and open-source manner, without a Benevolent Dictator for Life. Considering that the much of Internet infrastructure is built on free software and open source technologies, it makes me wonder ""What if we would organize the infrastructure development of the Internet in a similar manner?"". To do this by gathering companies, government, civil society and have open and collaborative processes in order to include a multitude of perspectives of this complex issue and overcome the challenges causing devastating consequences for societies, organizations and humans. I do not know of any projects working on the organising of society in relation to the internet, only W3C and IETF working on technical collaboration and standardization. My interest in this is mainly in connection to the recent developments and consequences from the Internet that people can experience in their daily offline life or when surfing the World Wide Web. Specific events I'm thinking about are examples such as the Cambridge Analytica scandal with Facebook and anon2696444391 similar events have happened. These are having a big effect on societies and democratic processes, at least in the representative democratic processes such as election. In that sense we are experiencing consequences of an Internet that is continuously being developed but we do not know anon2696444391, when it is done, it's simply having an impact on us as human beings, with potential large scale negative consequences. The consequences can mostly be loosely drawn as humans and scientific research can't really keep up with the silo-based, non-coordinated nature and speed of development, making it harder to connect the dots between source of change and consequences. My hopes are that we can gather a group of organizations and individuals from different sectors of society who are willing to collaborate and take a more holistic approach, a systems thinking approach on building a Internet infrastructure which serves humans and society as a whole. Perhaps establishing an ongoing collaboration with experimentation and action for the development of Internet with discussions and analysis happening when the group designs and reflects on experiments that are to be tested or have been tested. These thoughts and my background leading up to this is mainly based on my experience as a human. In this information society it becomes more evident and feels like a lot of actors are acting independantly and unknowing, or not caring, of the different directions they are pulling toward, and the consequences which come from everybody trying to pull in different directions. It gets easy to create a sensation of chaos. I believe that this goes for a majority of challenges we are facing, climate, mental health, economy. It's basically the Wild West whereas I believe that many expressions we can see on the Internet are symptoms of this experience for many people. I think that with the current information overload many people have, that can really pacify a lot of us. I think we're at an interesting point in this time in which these big challenges are becoming more and more transparent, evident and tangible. We need to take a new approach in order to sanon2696444391 that we can overcome these challenges, prove that a new approach can be done and then overcome all of these in parallel. I strongly believe that this is more of a challenge of anon2696444391 we organize the work with these common challenges as a society rather than finding one or many technological solutions to all of it. Technological solutions solve technological challenges. << Message from your Edgeryders host: Newcomers - please [sign up](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login) and join the conversation! >>" 2,52674,2019-04-19T01:41:16.976Z,9766,1,50,49,1,0,0,35.0,52655,anon3203746736,anon3214242932,Are you picturing an alternate open source physical infrastructure? Or do you picture adapting the one that already exists so that it operates in a more open and cooperative way? 3,52747,2019-04-23T14:32:57.949Z,9766,2,47,46,1,1,0,69.4,52655,anon1443855569,anon3214242932,"[quote=""anon3214242932x, post:1, topic:9766""] I strongly believe that this is more of a challenge of anon2696444391 we organize the work with these common challenges as a society... [/quote] Agree! The educated middle-class is bigger than ever, full of boredom, seeking after visions, motivation, meaning. We are right in time, but we have to fight the cynical ""what's in it for me""-individualism. I will attend the 11th of May in Blanon2066456771de." 4,52751,2019-04-23T16:48:30.500Z,9766,1,46,45,2,0,0,54.2,52747,anon3203746736,anon1443855569,"One need only take a good look at the planet's overall health and then there should be plenty of motivation. One of my burning questions is anon2696444391 the internet and information technology is going to help turn it around. Right now I see a whole lot of tech stuff being developed that I would place more in a ""because you can"" category rather than ""because you should."" I have read a pretty compelling argument for why a lot of dedicated driverless cars are more efficient than big transit systems, which are not efficient and are always subsidized. But I think that might be pretty far away in time still. And I also think the ""shakeout"" period for driverless/auanon2863106368omous vehicle tech is going to be pretty hairy. At least i have no intention of beta testing them and for sure hope to not get in the way of those who do." 5,52757,2019-04-23T20:43:52.728Z,9766,2,41,40,1,0,0,68.2,52655,anon2549650028,anon3214242932,"In response to your comment: ""I do not know of any projects working on the organising of society in relation to the internet, only W3C and IETF working on technical collaboration and standardization. My interest in this is mainly in connection to the recent developments and consequences from the Internet that people can experience in their daily offline life or when surfing the World Wide Web."" ----- I suggest you research Holochain. It is an engine for building decentralized, scaleable, secure apps that are focused on helping society organize in groups for social, political or economic aims. It is a functioning viable alternative to the growing information capitalism with its all invasive surveillance strategy that dominates the internet today." 6,52759,2019-04-23T20:55:11.550Z,9766,3,39,38,1,1,0,27.8,52757,anon659222949,anon2549650028,"[quote=""anon2549650028, post:5, topic:9766""] I suggest you research Holochain. [/quote] As I understand it, both @anon1572937553 and @anon122324738 have dabbled in Holochain?" 7,52760,2019-04-23T21:02:37.942Z,9766,0,36,35,6,0,0,37.2,52759,anon3828707713,anon659222949,@anon4024333396 too 8,52761,2019-04-23T22:07:27.670Z,9766,0,36,35,6,0,0,112.2,52759,anon1572937553,anon659222949,"Yep. We have been fiddling with Holochain and will continue doing so. Possibly we will be looking to create something based on the [Valueflows](https://valueflo.ws) vocabulary / [REA](https://msu.edu/user/mccarth4/McCarthy.pdf) to enable new flows of value within the food system. Holochain provides a few key features which, combined with open standards and protocols, could prove to be a really strong setup: * P2P application platform - no middle men * Single sign on and verified identities while retaining anonymity and data ownership - facilitates trust between parties * Built for component reuse - enabling remixing of functionality between applications and easy integrations * Fully encrypted if needed * Distributed hash tables without the performance bottlenecks of cryptocurrencies - no need to maintain a global state * No need to maintain global state means.. resilience - your subnet gets disconnected from the internet and your application keeps running * Built for performance - no global state and no middle men means no maximum number of transactions. (same as for any of the old open protocols - what is the maximum number of transactions per minute for `http` or `smtp` world wide?) * Built for limitless microtransactions without fees .. and probably some other stuff I forgot just now.." 9,52772,2019-04-24T08:26:32.313Z,9766,5,36,35,1,0,0,142.2,52759,anon122324738,anon659222949,"Yes, and to add a bit of prose to what Kristofer pointed out. My entry to [Holochain](https://holochain.org/) came from a long quest of trying to figure out why we (in the corporate mindset I had been trained) spend so much time on things that do not make peoples (and the planets) life better which to me is a lot of what I hear in your critique @anon3214242932x. So after having spent years looking into the control schematics of money I was out there campaigning for publicly created non-debt money when I came across the [Metacurrency](http://metacurrency.org/) project that pointed out that money was a very poor signalling system that is extremely lossy of information. What the Metacurrency project suggested, of which Holochain is a part, was that we needed a new way to individually creating the expressions that we need to better make visible what has happened (money says very anon2488317424 about what actually happened) and our desires for future things to happen. And we need to be able to weave all these expressions, like I am now weaving the words that I have learnt, to make new meaning. So, this was a long winded way of motivating why I am very excited by Holochain for creating a human internet. Not because it couldn't be done by other people, other protocols or in another way, but because the driving force behind the project is fully set on transcending the scarce reality of the monetary environment. Turning a world of transactions into a world of interconnected flows and people. Sure enough Holochain is not THE framework for EVERYTHING. Lots of applications require different tech but at its core it is, in my view, deeply human and respectful of human integrity in the way it allows for you storing your data until you decide you want to share something with someone, just like you do with your everyday experience as well as enabling as few as two people to start using a new app together with no involvement of things like servers. Agent-centrism also allows for these applications not only to bridge between each other, but to many other systems where you allow the application to act on your behalf. Integration with things like [SSB](https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/) which is already creating a much more human experience should be easy enough given that they are both offline first, cryptographically signed information exchanges. As for actual use right now, in addition to what me and @anon1572937553 [built](https://github.com/anon1572937553lund/holochain-logistics) I have one more application [prototyped](https://github.com/anon122324738/MailBoox-rust) and a few more designed, but there is still a lot of changes going on in the [core framework](https://github.com/holochain/holochain-rust) so things are breaking a lot. A few more months until apps see daily use I am guessing. Anyway, sorry for ranting, but the efforts for open-source ""_organizing the work with these common challenges as a society_"" are very much front and center in the Holochain/Metacurrency community as far as I can tell." 10,52773,2019-04-24T08:41:33.832Z,9766,2,36,35,1,1,0,22.2,52772,anon659222949,anon122324738,"[quote=""anon122324738, post:9, topic:9766""] money was a very poor signalling system that is extremely lossy of information [/quote] This might be interesting to @anon3197437925 and his PayCoupons project. Matt, what’s your take on Holochain?" 11,52778,2019-04-24T09:13:06.031Z,9766,2,36,35,1,0,0,67.2,52674,anon3214242932,anon3203746736,"Good questions which makes me reflect on my post. An open source physical infrastructure would be interesting, @anon2682865457 got interviewed about that. I think that would be interesting for redundancy and a resilient solution better than the idea of a ""backup"" if the mainstream infrastructure goes down. However in regards to your question I am picturing the current physical infrastructure being governed in a different way socially. Like right now there are 11 ""keyholders"" to renew the DNS root zones(?) of the entire Internet and that crucial infrastructure is entirely based in the U.S. which I think can be a security issue if things go wrong over there and someone tries to do something to that single node. I'm not putting emphasis on the technical side even though it is important, I'm putting more emphasis on anon2696444391 society organizes socially to develop a common infrastructure. At the current point it seems to me that a few strong players seem to build and run the entire infrastructure apart from servers and websites run by a larger variety of operators." 13,52784,2019-04-24T10:51:59.106Z,9766,1,37,36,1,1,0,17.4,52773,anon3197437925,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon122324738, post:9, topic:9766""]I came across the [Metacurrency](http://metacurrency.org/) project that pointed out that money was a very poor signalling system that is extremely lossy of information.[/quote] Oh, money is a very poor system for a multitude of reasons :) For one thing, state currencies try to be both a means of exchange and a store of value, and these two monetary functions are in conflict. And there is the more fundamental reason that money as a ""token of value accepted by a multitude of parties"" is inherently a social construction and needs social governance to be successful, and that often fails, both in states and in grassroots projects. So what we did to support economic exchange in [PayCoupons](https://pay.coupons) is to switch from money to mutual credit notes. In a way, everyone there issues their own currency and we solve the problem of ""but anon2696444391 does everyone get what they want"" with an algorithm for multi-party bartering that we made. I remember we looked into Holochain, Bancor, Stanon4205961763r etc. but so far, there is just no distributed ledger technology that could run PayCoupons in a privacy-protecting way. The mathematics for running our algorithm in that manner are just not there yet. So we have to stick with a centralized or federated platform architecture for now (and it sanon2696444391s that distributed ledgers have some limitations left, but it will be figured out). When it comes to actual use of any new value accounting or exchange system, the experience we made is this: it's a challenge to hide away all the tech complexity from the end user, but without that there will be no mainstream adoption." 14,52791,2019-04-24T12:23:12.574Z,9766,1,37,36,2,1,0,37.4,52784,anon122324738,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:13, topic:9766""] I remember we looked into Holochain, Bancor, Stanon4205961763r etc. but so far, there is just no distributed ledger technology that could run PayCoupons in a privacy-protecting way [/quote] I'd love to hear what the privacy-protection needs that you have are? I agree that especially all of the blockchain stuff I have seen is super unaccessible for anyone non-technical. Hoping that the key management parts of Holochain will help make it much easier to hide that stuff. Would be fun to have a conversation around this a anon2488317424 further down the line, mutual credit is basically built into the structure of Holochain since it is fully peer-to-peer with no miners and that heavy stuff." 15,52792,2019-04-24T12:30:10.649Z,9766,0,38,37,1,1,0,12.6,52791,anon3197437925,anon122324738,"[quote=""anon122324738, post:14, topic:9766""]I’d love to hear what the privacy-protection needs that you have are?[/quote] Transactions on distributed ledgers are public and pseudonymous, and would sanon2696444391 the ""zero-sum mutual credit exchange transactions"" that we calculate for our users. With that information and a few user accounts taking part in the transactions (de-anonymizing a few trade partners which is still ok) one can then apply network analysis techniques and de-anonymize everyone's identity. We're building the system for businesses though, and they would not be happy to see that all their trade partners, orders and order volumes are exposed publicly :| The only way to solve this would be to run mathematical optimization in a distributed way over a network, with each node having only limited knowledge about their own orders. But that's _wayyy_ too slow. So we have to wait for functional encryption and the like to become more mature so that we can do the same but on a single machine." 16,52803,2019-04-24T16:03:39.364Z,9766,1,35,34,1,0,0,107.0,52778,anon3203746736,anon3214242932,"The ""winner take all"" mentality that governs the internet as well as the whole capitalist world is a core part of the problem. Unchecked, it leads to mass extinction." 17,52864,2019-04-26T15:30:52.724Z,9766,1,34,33,1,0,0,76.8,52655,anon1753543892,anon3214242932,"Thank you very much for this discussion. I am still very much starting to learn about Holochain. Thank you very much for having this discussion and linking explanatory texts :). Similar to the underlying capitalistic mentality shaping solutions through their development as brought up by John, I want to mention the general problem of scaling at this point. Many solutions, if not all, change their character when scaled up. How do you think would it impact the Holochain and Pay-coupons models you are discussing here if they would be used by large and not fully self-informed communities?" 18,53296,2019-05-09T21:02:32.072Z,9766,0,33,32,1,0,0,71.6,52864,anon122324738,anon1753543892,"I'm glad it was helpful @anon1753543892 , if you have other questions around Holochain I am happy to talk about it to the extent of what I know. It's hard for me to say much about the character of Holochain-based software since it's all still very experimental. There are no production-level apps and I don't know anon2696444391 well it is all going to turn out, but in theory and prototyping it is looking fascinating. I think that there is a possibility of not needing to scale as much with self-hosting. Especially if we can bridge all of the different applications through the person using them. If it is as easy to create an application (or at least instance of an application) for three people as it is for 10 000 people then anon2696444391 large a scale would we need? One aim with Holochain is to have small packets of composable code that can be used to create the local applications that are needed within a community. While there are probably going to be applications that span actors from all over the world, including knowledge sharing and bridge-building applications between networks, there is a possibility for an approach to network building that promotes smaller, evolvable applications that are run by a bunch of people that want to coordinate activities. Is there really a need for global scale applications? The one network? If not, what is the appropriate scale of a network? I am guessing that people will be bridging different networks and applications in the area of their interest and expertise. I don't really have a clear picture of all this yet, but I don't think we'll see these 4 billion people applications like FB. Maybe not even 4 million people applications. More like a multitude of interconnected 400 people (or 40 people) applications. Many people may have similar applications but they could all be running slightly different versions and tweaked interfaces, at least that is the promise of the infrastructure as far as I understand it. We could hope that this would lead to more self-steering, self-directed and self-informed groups, but I guess time will tell if that actually comes to fruition." 19,53497,2019-05-14T20:10:36.013Z,9766,1,32,31,1,1,0,16.4,52772,anon2682865457,anon122324738,"[quote=""anon122324738, post:9, topic:9766""] Agent-centrism also allows for these applications not only to bridge between each other, but to many other systems where you allow the application to act on your behalf. Integration with things like [SSB](https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/) which is already creating a much more human experience should be easy enough given that they are both offline first, cryptographically signed information exchanges. [/quote] I would be very keen to hear more about your view on anon2696444391 SSB and Holochain would be combinable? I'm also curious to hear more about what holochains relation to monetary structures embedded within the applications. Would currency be a possible integration in the core protocol of Holochain? Would it be in the application layer? In general I'm curious as to Holochains relation to monetary-issues :cherry_blossom:" 20,53503,2019-05-14T21:15:46.397Z,9766,1,31,30,2,0,0,111.2,53497,anon122324738,anon2682865457,"Well as both SSB and Holochain are frameworks that store information locally, author (and cryptografically sign) and gossip what you as an agent signal (post) into the systems, it seems to me that building bridging applications would be relatively straight forward. You could have an application, lets call it SimplePost, that is able to cross post (through your cryptographic signatures) both into the SSB blob and some Holochain local chain and DHT. You could also authorize an SSB application to request data from say your Holochain contact book by simply opening the ""API"" of the Holochain application to allow it (authorizing the keys of the application requesting). I write API in quotations since, in my understanding, good Holochain design is based on separating the UIs and data layer of all the Holochain applications so that we can create UIs that utilize many different DHTs for richer applications. Through that design, all data function calls are effectively APIs and just as accessible from, for instance, an SSB application as from a simple localhost webapp (using things like websockets). As for currencies and Holochain that is a bit of a rabbit hole. This whole thing grew out of the meta-currency project and there is some pretty deep and heady [material](http://metacurrency.org/portfolio-item/deep-wealth-a-post-monetary-jazz-ensemble/) on what Holochain is trying to enable in this space. But as a short reply, yes, one of the reasons why Holochain has focused so much energy on creating peer-validating functions and temper-proofing local chains of entries is that it sets the stage for super simple implementation of currency. Currencies on Holochain would not require tokens or mining but are a way of issuing credit to one another which is then a circulating supply. This can be done within applications, but are possibly better thought of as micro-services usable by any application you have installed. Currency is a simple app. And as all other apps, the UI could weave it into another app. Say for instance a carsharing application. The application that is keeping track of car usage and maintenance costs can call into the carpool credit application and shift credit from one user to another. Maybe the carpool credit application can also be the tool library credit application, all that requires is using it in both apps. I don't know if that makes things clearer @anon2682865457, if not, please help me clarify where I am confusing, I'm happy to exercise and grow my understanding like that. :smile:" 21,53600,2019-05-17T01:57:09.980Z,9766,2,28,27,1,0,0,35.6,52655,anon3048848105,anon3214242932,"Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm seeing two issues you're touching one. The primary one being about project governance: anon2696444391 do we run these projects? There I find it difficult to avoid BDFL when starting the project, but the question is anon2696444391 to transition to something better as other contributors come on board. I'm not sure anon2373157426 anon2696444391 that relates to governing the Internet though. But with your concerns on information overload (as well as the practicalities of helping people find the conversations they need to be a part of) seems to tie into my interest in anon2696444391 to improve search and discovery. I'm definitely interested in hearing more about anon2696444391 this would work!" 22,53927,2019-05-24T14:14:13.344Z,9766,1,27,26,1,1,0,15.4,53503,anon3379761435,anon122324738,"[quote=""anon122324738, post:20, topic:9766""] Currencies on Holochain would not require tokens or mining but are a way of issuing credit to one another which is then a circulating supply. [/quote] Hmm. This does remind me of @anon3197437925's [Paycoupons](/t/8417). Am I wrong?" 23,53929,2019-05-24T14:41:44.495Z,9766,1,28,27,1,0,0,60.6,53927,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"Where such Holochain currencies are issued and accepted by one party each: yes, then these would be very similar to coupons. The reason we could not use any public ledger protocol for PayCoupons' coupons was anon2696444391ever that our coupon exchange algorithm (network bartering) could not be implemented in a privacy-protecting way with any current blockchain technology. Without that algorithm, coupons are not really useful though. So in case that Holochain has coupon-like currencies I'd be interested anon2696444391 they facilitate their exchange …" 24,54033,2019-05-27T12:16:09.123Z,9766,1,26,25,1,0,0,30.2,53600,anon1032047132,anon3048848105,"At this point, there is a lot of material about commons-based governance out there based on the work of the Nobel Prize winning Elinor Ostrom. We need off the shelf frameworks, templates and software that make it easy to adopt commons-based governance for projects." 25,54251,2019-05-30T16:04:48.200Z,9766,1,26,25,1,7,0,30.2,52747,anon3214242932,anon1443855569,"[quote=""anon1443855569, post:3, topic:9766""] Agree! The educated middle-class is bigger than ever, full of boredom, seeking after visions, motivation, meaning. We are right in time, but we have to fight the cynical “what’s in it for me”-individualism. I will attend the 11th of May in Blanon2066456771de. [/quote] @anon1443855569 At the same time the educated middle-class is more busy than ever with work days consisting of 8-11 hour workdays (including about 2 hour commute for some), taking care of kids, having Netflix competing with its main competitor being a biological need called *Sleep* and hours of ""sousveillance"" looking at other people's lives instead of interacting with each other and society. I think you're on to something but I believe that all people have an inherent will which there is a constant battle from different actors to attract. [quote=""anon3203746736, post:4, topic:9766""] One need only take a good look at the planet’s overall health and then there should be plenty of motivation. One of my burning questions ... At least i have no intention of beta testing them and for sure hope to not get in the way of those who do. [/quote] @anon3203746736 Definitely. Maybe the narratives around these issues such as the planet's ecosystems health and overall system health are erasing the motivation when the narratives need to enable people's will? Regarding the driverelss car-narrative I believe big reason to the belief in this is that it has strong compelling arguments for investors and politicians interested in growth and maintaining current mainstream policies connected to measurements like GDP. This is simply because it requires to build new (electric) superior cars/vehicles (for few individuals), infrastructure, support and maintenance systems as well as auanon2863106368omy systems which is more attractive than the more financially cost-heavy investments of big transit system which are less flexible, more capital intensive and has less revenue per person (one car/person vs one train or hyperloop/many people). This is more interesting even though it's admitted that it's much more difficult and complex (i.e. people being involved in traffic) to build self-driving systems for cars than for airplanes as there are more vehicles and objects on the ground than in the air. [quote=""anon2549650028, post:5, topic:9766""] It is an engine for building decentralized, scaleable, secure apps that are focused on helping society organize in groups for social, political or economic aims. It is a functioning viable alternative to the growing information capitalism with its all invasive surveillance strategy that dominates the internet today. [/quote] @anon2549650028 Thanks for the tip. As I understand it, Holochain is a technical solution trying to replace the Internet, dependant and within this technical and social infrastructure that the solution wants to replace? It would need to be housed within an alternative physical and social infrastructure than the current Internet in order to replace it right (and then have a surge of users onboarding Holochain instead of the platforms on the web as we know it)? [quote=""anon122324738, post:9, topic:9766""] My entry to [Holochain ](https://holochain.org/) came from a long quest of trying to figure out why we (in the corporate mindset I had been trained) spend so much time on things that do not make peoples (and the planets) life better which to me is a lot of what I hear in your critique @anon3214242932x. [/quote] @anon122324738 I'm thinking my post is more perspectives and merely asking: what if we would try things differently as a society, based on what we are learning from the current state of affairs? And I'm trying to not jump to the solutions be it technical or social ones. :slightly_smiling_face: [quote=""anon3203746736, post:16, topic:9766, full:true""] The “winner take all” mentality that governs the internet as well as the whole capitalist world is a core part of the problem. Unchecked, it leads to mass extinction. [/quote] @anon3203746736 I'm not sure it's ""winner takes all"", I'm thinking it is more like everyone takes everything? Regardless of ideology, it seems that responsibility to consider and act for the *wholeness* of the system is abscent. [quote=""anon3048848105, post:21, topic:9766""] The primary one being about project governance: anon2696444391 do we run these projects? There I find it difficult to avoid BDFL when starting the project, but the question is anon2696444391 to transition to something better as other contributors come on board. I’m not sure anon2373157426 anon2696444391 that relates to governing the Internet though. [/quote] @anon3048848105 Yes there are two issues and the primary is on anon2696444391 we run the Internet as a whole and an infrastructure. You're right about BDFL, when starting something on one's own initiative that becomes a BDFL scenario - anon2696444391ever starting with together others, I'm not sure it has to be a BDFL scenario. How this alternative way of governing and developing would work - that's what I would like to research if I get the fellowship with bursary. :slight_smile: [quote=""anon1032047132, post:24, topic:9766, full:true""] At this point, there is a lot of material about commons-based governance out there based on the work of the Nobel Prize winning Elinor Ostrom. We need off the shelf frameworks, templates and software that make it easy to adopt commons-based governance for projects. [/quote] Interesting! How has these materials translated into real-world practice? I know there are practical examples which her research was connected to - but anon2696444391 has it developed? It might work with the off-the-shelf solutions but the implementation of those - they depend a lot on the process in which they are implemented right? Are they convincing enough as governance systems in comparison to existing systems? How have they been convincing societies and communities so far? **My proposal is to research: How can we organize for a big, complex and social multi-stakeholder challenge like the development of the Internet?** *A challenge which at first seems like a web of technical challenges and where it seems every issue can be solved with technical solutions - but in reality perhaps in essence is a social issue at its roots?* **My proposal for a track at the distributed conference would be to try to arrange distributed participatory processes to try to build the coalition throughout Europe needed to take on the challenge of reshaping the development of the Internet.** (I have not replied to Holochain-replies, unsure anon2696444391 they relate as a technical solution.)" 26,54305,2019-05-31T11:11:25.873Z,9766,1,26,25,1,1,0,15.2,52655,anon2852709445,anon3214242932,"[quote=""anon3214242932x, post:1, topic:9766""] Considering that the much of Internet infrastructure is built on free software and open source technologies, it makes me wonder “What if we would organize the infrastructure development of the Internet in a similar manner?”. [/quote] @anon3214242932x what's your definition of ""infrastructure""? Do you mean the communications hardware on which digital signals travel between devices? Or are you using a different definition? I'm curious because to me preventing things like Cambridge Analytica's data peddling is a task more at the level of data governance rather than at the level of infrastructure governance. Maybe I'm using a different definition?" 27,54364,2019-06-01T16:57:50.221Z,9766,0,25,24,2,0,0,15.0,52773,anon1760588290,anon659222949,"I don't even know what ""loss of information"" means. And if I did, I might believe loss of information is a feature, not a weakness." 28,54365,2019-06-01T16:59:49.118Z,9766,0,25,24,1,0,0,10.0,52778,anon1760588290,anon3214242932,"No, the DNS root servers are spread out over the planet. One is in my home town, Stockholm." 29,54488,2019-06-04T08:33:21.942Z,9766,0,20,19,1,1,0,54.0,54251,anon3379761435,anon3214242932,"[quote=""anon3214242932x, post:25, topic:9766""] How has these materials translated into real-world practice? I know there are practical examples which [Elinor Ostrom's] research was connected to - but anon2696444391 has it developed? [/quote] Over a long time – decades, or centuries. _Governing the Commons_ lists, if memory serves, six long-term stable of managing (limited, renewable) resources without top-down control: water management in the Philippines and Eastern spain, forestry in Switzerland and Japan, fisheries in Eastern Canada and so on. Since these governance arrangements evolved over a long period of time and tend to have no recorded history, Ostrom never gets to observe such an arrangement gel. The book ends with conditions and even ""design principles"" that increase their chances of success. Highly recommended." 30,78090,2020-06-03T09:28:29.855Z,9766,0,14,13,0,0,0,2.8,52655,anon1753543892,anon3214242932,"Maybe of interest for some here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/online-free-talk-about-car-cognition-at-driverlessworldschool/13750" 31,78141,2020-06-03T12:59:04.770Z,9766,2,13,12,1,0,0,32.6,52655,anon3459039089,anon3214242932,"If the project #TheWeb of Tim Berners-Lee could unite the like-minded dreamers here for the better internet? My input (I'm a printing engineer / information logistics via digital print): a physical network of Things, each of which enables secure access to #TheWeb. And the Things are Public Library PAPER books, with ""digital twin access"" interfaces - via SMART QR-code stickers, integrated into a book cover / dust jacket. I hope that ubiquity of books and trust to their public roots & non-capitalistic value of Learning will attract anon1443855569-to-anon1443855569 book sharers. Including sharing constructive emotions (similar to social media, but without negative and hype, thanks to certain algorithms), collaboration ideas etc. Does it sound viable? https://devpost.com/software/IndiviDUALbooks" 32,78717,2020-06-10T21:09:43.821Z,9766,2,13,12,1,0,0,17.6,78141,anon3203746736,anon3459039089,Looks like a noble enterprise. How do you deal with copyright? 33,78723,2020-06-11T06:37:46.190Z,9766,1,13,12,0,0,0,7.6,78717,anon3459039089,anon3203746736,"We enable more decent royalties (for CopyRight/CR owners) flow, secured by blockchain: each book usage is initiated by click at ISBN code - increased ca. by 20%, thanks to more sales & library loans - each usage event reflected in the Creative Passport* - two types of royalties protected, though we could 'ignore' CR: 1. For Visually Impaired People /VIP*** 2. For non-VIP: right2copy for private needs. Issue: it takes time to explain to (legacy/stubborn/greedy) publishers, that they should OPEN books (&eBooks) data, to - receive +20% royalty - AND DOUBLE sales from Long Tail** books. * slide 12, http://bit.ly/oeBookSlides4Aalto ** slide 9, http://bit.ly/oeBookSlides4Aalto *** via https://www.accessiblebooksconsortium.org/globalbooks/en/" 34,78726,2020-06-11T08:05:16.506Z,9766,0,14,13,0,0,0,2.8,78717,anon3459039089,anon3203746736,"And we start it as Blue Ocean solution: for currently under-served groups, by providing them TRIPLE-A books (Accessible, Affordable, Available), with 'digital twins' of contents - adjusted & adjustable in real time - to the unique user: - VIP make 20% of population, currently served only ca. 1% (by audio books for VIP - immigrants (books at non-local languages are rare), elderly people (digitally illiterate) who need SPECIALIZED books in ONE UNIQUE copy each, like special fonts for dyslexic/ Large Print Books. And (referring to Copyright question) our strongest feature is ISP's / Copyright protection & enhanced support: see Public Libraries Testimonials, slide 8 https://bit.ly/oeBook4Espoo" 35,78741,2020-06-11T09:18:40.042Z,9766,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,52655,anon1753543892,anon3214242932,We would also be interested in hearing about what motivated you initially to develop this? Was there an initial experience or piece of writing that made you aware of this need? 36,79222,2020-06-20T07:36:52.224Z,9766,0,14,13,1,1,0,7.8,78723,anon3379761435,anon3459039089,"[quote=""anon3459039089, post:33, topic:9766""] ssue: it takes time to explain to (legacy/stubborn/greedy) publishers, that they should OPEN books (&eBooks) data, to [/quote] Hello @anon3459039089, that's a very attractive model. And you are right on the money there, it depends on publishers. They are incredibly powerful, and what they say goes. Let's hope they come around..." 37,79413,2020-06-23T11:10:37.348Z,9766,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,52655,anon3459039089,anon3214242932,"Thanks @anon3379761435! Division of knowledge books into PAPER books & eBooks is inherited from pre-hyperconnected era. Some publishers are starting to understand that*, but the old-timer authors & publishers are still ‘gate-keepers’**, just because they DON'T UNDERSTAND what 'digital era' means :-( . Therefore we need Dutch-like* use cases / to break the legacy (thanks to COVID-19 also); I am trying to persuade Cities-as-MyData-Operators in Finland: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6681127505090359296/ I also explain at slide 9***, that Pareto rule is not working for Long Tail books (Long Tail DOUBLES sales&loans of books). And the most important is that we've sold the issue of royalties, by providing each PHYSICAL book's loan with THE digital interface, UpCode: a book is send to be printed on-demand via this MyData-approach-conform FINNISH 2D-code (UpCodeworld.com) of book's UNIQUE ISBN's token. The issue: it's hard to explain anon2696444391 it works to thousands publishers and millions authors :-( The smartest (Finnish) librarians understand though: see slide 13*** *watch 2 min., from 38:00, Dutch publisher refers to the 'hold' bestsellers scheme, sanon2696444391n at 30:00 of this video http://bit.ly/oeBookOodiSeminar30min **""The other problem with the AG’s argument is that it assumes every ebook rental from a library represents a lost sale. This is simply untrue."" https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/284988-the-authors-guild-declares-war-on-digital-library-lending-libraries ***https://bit.ly/oeBookSlides4Aalto [https://twitter.com/celia_gov/status/1105424312364871680?s=09](https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fcelia_gov%2Fstatus%2F1105424312364871680%3Fs%3D09%26fbclid%3DIwAR1GdBD_3Hcibt19R4soczniB5bSH17Z96C5M5vMKJ_KfyuM8yb118VCEvo&h=AT2EVeUD39qSWH4utBBBrQKLz3MD57-aSrayW2zqMXLMk30vnkJIAEFTL5MsmoTuJ0h3KUNC6oV28lbBTRgwCbPgQll2D5_ePY0ZjSInjmYFSAve6SWCn_jrgHPhLSdWd_Tzuw) Retail means excessive costs for books, though eBooks are less costly by-design than paper books. It means that eBooks distribution is seriously flawed. Built for pre-digitalized society, eBooks business models need re-design for hyper-connected era. [https://www.fastcompany.com/90404633/battle-for-the-future-e-books-at-the-local-library](https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fastcompany.com%2F90404633%2Fbattle-for-the-future-e-books-at-the-local-library%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR1haqFjU8NO0VkasW1cC_4ky_tmEb4U15DMk03u1mTNfGxuoa7f2WnyTwA&h=AT2EVeUD39qSWH4utBBBrQKLz3MD57-aSrayW2zqMXLMk30vnkJIAEFTL5MsmoTuJ0h3KUNC6oV28lbBTRgwCbPgQll2D5_ePY0ZjSInjmYFSAve6SWCn_jrgHPhLSdWd_Tzuw) [https://www.mikrobitti.fi/uutiset/tiesitko-etta-voit-lainata-e-kirjoja-mista-tahansa-kirjastosta-suomessa-ilmaiseksi/c65b8e33-4503-4258-8918-786d7ab63ce9](https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikrobitti.fi%2Fuutiset%2Ftiesitko-etta-voit-lainata-e-kirjoja-mista-tahansa-kirjastosta-suomessa-ilmaiseksi%2Fc65b8e33-4503-4258-8918-786d7ab63ce9%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2vmXwxvI4Yfs4bjlljIZC9Ak7WMgYZ-uvZL2F_6FyDogT5Npd9-80VurY&h=AT2EVeUD39qSWH4utBBBrQKLz3MD57-aSrayW2zqMXLMk30vnkJIAEFTL5MsmoTuJ0h3KUNC6oV28lbBTRgwCbPgQll2D5_ePY0ZjSInjmYFSAve6SWCn_jrgHPhLSdWd_Tzuw)" 38,79650,2020-06-26T23:00:54.654Z,9766,1,14,13,1,0,0,42.8,79413,anon3203746736,anon3459039089,"Maybe you will have better luck than the Internet Archive. They made the decision when lockdowns started to offer a huge selection of scanned books loaned out library style with the idea of doing the public libraries' job on their behalf while they sort themselves out. But [they got sued by the publisher's association](https://www.npr.org/2020/06/03/868861704/publishers-sue-internet-archive-for-mass-copyright-infranon2945747231ment) and after their explanation, which I thought was pretty reasonable, was rejected, the [Internet Archive withdrew the service](https://www.techrepublic.com/article/is-internet-archives-unrestricted-lending-of-1-4-million-books-legal/). But they are being [defended by the EFF](https://www.gen.net.uk/about-us/news/35-electronic-frontier-foundation-eff/15742-eff-and-durie-tangri-join-forces-to-defend-internet-archives-digital-library) and another firm, so the story is far from over." 39,79713,2020-06-29T15:29:12.705Z,9766,1,16,15,4,0,0,43.2,79650,anon3459039089,anon3203746736,"Thanks @anon3203746736, for your great example case IA! My comment below, sorry the long read. Though not being a lawyer, I can judge this case from my (living in EU) perspective, also thanks to being a MyData Founding Member². There are some differences in EU vs. US copyright laws, also in the law systems (continental vs. case law). But 'FAIR use' is almost similar in both, and it can be defended in court. For (at least) FOUR DIFFERENT 'fair use' cases: (1) books in Accessible Formats, for Visually Impaired People VIP (2) for PRIVATE USE (3) for force-majeur circumstances, like IA did (when pandemia closed public library (PL) services. Some legal opinions here¹) (4) as a human right case. FAIR use cases may look different in national legislatures, e.g. U.S. vs. Italian vs. Finnish; in U.S. there's 'exhaustion' of copyright³ (first-sale doctrine) when a book is legally owned, e.g. by buying it or via donation, ""forgotten"" by Alexander (who inaccurately⁴ referred to Copyright law), quoted By TechRepublic⁵. See very good comments in the IA blog⁶ re. societal effects. But I play safe (Case I), even though I'd like to defend these cases in court: I'll start my service **for Visually Impaired People** (VIP) ONLY, by leveraging The Marrakesh Treaty for VIP (U.S. is also a party, that signed the Treaty): it provides for right to copy (incl. right to order & to receive copy) - of copyrighted books without asking permission from a copyright owner. In EU nation countries we have a paragraph in Copyright laws: right to make copIES for PRIVATE USE (⁷Art. 12). Up to four copies⁸, by Finnish law, for family members AND closest FRIENDS (Case II). My plan: to start service #MyData #IndiviDUALbooks (Bœks) - with 'fair use case I', for VIP only; - then to implement 'fair use case II', for PRIVATE uses, in Finland - to EU - to U.S. (maybe). I discussed it with libraries/lawyers in Finland: THOUGH IT'S A LEGAL RIGHT, NO-ONE WISHES TO RISK A LEGAL BATTLE. So, I may use 'a trick': data cooperatives¹² instead of PL. - 'fair use case III', for data cooperatives, see below¹², in Finland - to EU - to U.S. (maybe) - 'fair use case IV', as-a-human-right, for force-majeur (pandemia), where applicable. Cases III/IV - IF SUPPORTED by strong communities (like Edgeryders/ MyData). I like what IA did, but with all my due respect, I don't (yet) have resources to fight in court against publisher monsters. I can only try to explain them that they lose more than gain, if opposing Bœks (like in above Dutch-like* use cases). Also like against Amazon's business model killing local businesses: my idea is here⁹. The Accessible Formats of books, provided by Bœks innovation - is even an OBLIGATION for public services, by Accessibility laws. Though not enforceable yet, similar to GDPR's Article 20 (data portability). Nevertheless, I promote the Accessibility AND cost-efficiency of the Bœks. The U.S. Copyright Office¹º stated that ""[t]he tangible nature of a copy is a defining element of the first sale doctrine and critical to its rationale.""¹¹ Therefore, when DATA is not rival, a right to enjoy the PERSONAL DATA assets don't need to be protected in courts (like the threat to IA). It is a HUMAN RIGHT, like the right-to-internet in Finnish law, or the First Amendment in U.S. law. This is a long topic, but there's a good paper, that I plan to leverage for my next level ('fair use case III') in implementation my Bœks, as-'The Bœks for The Web': ‘property-owning democracy’ through personal data platform cooperatives'¹². I consider Bœks a TRANSFORMATIVE use case, it's a ground for asserting Bœks as FAIR use case: as we apply access to PERSONAL DATA assets into a PL book form-factor: MyData Label-Butanon2863106368 approach / MyData Operators best practices access in1click at The Butanon2863106368, - for PERSONAL benefits, non-accessible without TRANSFORMATION into Bœks. Re. 'the exclusive right of reproduction' vs. 'right to copy' (⁷""exclusive right to control a work by reproducing it **AND** by making it available to the public"", Section 2). Quote from EFF: ""That (CDL program) means that if the Archive and its partner libraries have only one copy of a book, then only one patron can borrow it at a time, just like any other library."" My Bœk solution has three sub-solutions: (1) is similar to CDL, but in a PHYSICAL / PAPER form. It is (to be) supported by the novelty of Finnish law: royalty is paid to copyright owners when a book is loaned by a PL, also for e-books. A Bœk, when (a scan file is) sent to be printed, signals 'a loan event' to the relevant Finnish authority (state fund Sanasto), that provides royalty payments, for VIP - or even if a book is 'loaned' (a forthcoming, anon1443855569-to-anon1443855569, loan of a Bœk, received from a PL) by a natural person, i.e. not by a PL, but leveraging the PL's data / resources. Thus protecting copyright holders' economical interests / leaving them off the argument ""IA's NEL is vile""¹³. (2) When a physical book owner uses his/her right to produce & share a (legally obtained) Bœk copy in a paper form (or CDL-like e-book, INSIDE a Bœk's DUAL form-factor; it's like CDL from IA) FOR PRIVATE USE (a fair use case, for e.g. family member). This case differs from (1), as a PL patron / a data cooperative member utilizes FOR FREE the Bœk printers, owned by PL / or by the data cooperative (like MyData Coop). 2 € eco-deposit applies though, like a deposit in a sale price for a plastic bottle; (3) 10+2=12 € deposit applies, if a PL patron 'purchases' / prints himself/herself a Bœk, non-available commercially/from PL, via a PL database resources. This includes author royalty. Case (3) differs - from case (1), by SEAMLESSNESS of non-availability of a book in case 1, for non-VIPeople, i.e. a patron must fulfill the request to share a Bœk (by postal service) - if such happens; - from case (2), by economical constraints: if a patron prints for ownership (i.e. not shares) more than one Bœk per year. ¹https://www.noranon2863106368rosefulbright.com/en-ca/knowledge/publications/00261309/pandemic-superior-force-force-majeure-and-its-impact-on-business-obligations-in-quebec ²https://mydata.org/founders/ ³https://blog.archive.org/2020/06/01/four-commercial-publishers-filed-a-complaint-about-the-internet-archives-lending-of-digitized-books/ ⁴https://www.techrepublic.com/article/is-internet-archives-unrestricted-lending-of-1-4-million-books-legal/ ⁷https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokset/1961/en19610404.pdf ⁸In Finnish language: instruction for users (2-4 copies allowed for family & closest friends ""perheen ja läheisen ystäväpiirin välillä""; SUBJECT TO remuneration to copyright owners by state fund), from Finnish Copyright authority https://tekijanoikeus.fi/tekijanoikeus/luvallinen-kaytto/ ⁹https://twitter.com/SmartPaperVB/status/1269955167203528704 ¹ºhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Copyright_Office ¹¹https://www.copyright.gov/reports/studies/dmca/dmca_executive.html ¹²https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13698230.2020.1782046 ¹³https://www.zdnet.com/article/copyright-alliance-blasts-internet-archives-emergency-library-launch-as-vile/" 40,79717,2020-06-29T16:25:59.276Z,9766,1,15,14,3,0,0,23.0,79713,anon3459039089,anon3459039089,"I repeat links, they were not linkable (incl. forgotten two links ⁵ and ⁶) in above comment: ¹ https://www.noranon2863106368rosefulbright.com/en-ca/knowledge/publications/00261309/pandemic-superior-force-force-majeure-and-its-impact-on-business-obligations-in-quebec ² https://mydata.org/founders/ ³ https://blog.archive.org/2020/06/01/four-commercial-publishers-filed-a-complaint-about-the-internet-archives-lending-of-digitized-books/ ⁴ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/is-internet-archives-unrestricted-lending-of-1-4-million-books-legal/ ⁵ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/is-internet-archives-unrestricted-lending-of-1-4-million-books-legal/ ⁶ https://blog.archive.org/2020/06/01/four-commercial-publishers-filed-a-complaint-about-the-internet-archives-lending-of-digitized-books/ ⁷ https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokset/1961/en19610404.pdf ⁸ In Finnish language: instruction for users (2-4 copies allowed for family & closest friends “perheen ja läheisen ystäväpiirin välillä”; SUBJECT TO remuneration to copyright owners by state fund), from Finnish Copyright authority https://tekijanoikeus.fi/tekijanoikeus/luvallinen-kaytto/ ⁹ https://twitter.com/SmartPaperVB/status/1269955167203528704 ¹º https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Copyright_Office ¹¹ https://www.copyright.gov/reports/studies/dmca/dmca_executive.html ¹² https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13698230.2020.1782046 ¹³ https://www.zdnet.com/article/copyright-alliance-blasts-internet-archives-emergency-library-launch-as-vile/" 41,79724,2020-06-29T17:30:06.463Z,9766,0,15,14,2,0,0,43.0,79717,anon3203746736,anon3459039089,It is clear that you have really thought this through. Good luck and please let us know anon2696444391 it's going. 42,89019,2020-12-15T18:53:34.436Z,9766,0,12,11,2,0,0,27.4,54305,anon3214242932,anon2852709445,"Woah, time has flown since I kind of lost touch with Edgeryders last year during heavy workload and then the pandemic. My definition of infrastructure is usually hardware but since that is dependent on the social organizing I think it is important to consider the governing bodies and users ability to actually use infrastructure. Yeah typically the communications hardware, but curious to expand the view to include user and governance in that since it depends on the governance bodies and anon2696444391 users influence that. I believe they can relate to each other, anon2696444391 data can travel in infrastructure influences data governance and vice versa e.g. anon2696444391 data governance allows anon2696444391 much and what data can travel." 43,89020,2020-12-15T19:14:04.202Z,9766,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,78141,anon3214242932,anon3459039089,"@anon3459039089 Hopefully it can unite people to dream but hardly have only like-minded people dream and share view of what a ""better"" Internet is. I do think your idea sounds very interesting for sure, curious to follow this thread and other threads about what happened. Sharing a low threshold similar to conventional books would probably make it easy to pick up." 44,89105,2020-12-17T18:19:25.273Z,9766,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,52655,anon3203746736,anon3214242932,"We have a public webinar coming up in January (date and time TBA) on the subject of making a large-scale Internet search that reflects the needs of the entire public, unfiltered by a corporate intermediary such as Google." 45,89179,2020-12-21T13:09:18.308Z,9766,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,89105,anon3214242932,anon3203746736,"Sounds very interesting, you're welcome to notify me when there are more details." 46,98323,2021-07-25T14:53:48.703Z,9766,1,9,8,1,1,0,26.8,52772,anon2330592203,anon122324738,"[quote=""anon122324738, post:9, topic:9766""] Turning a world of transactions into a world of interconnected flows and people. [/quote] This is needed very urgently, I think." 47,98325,2021-07-26T05:47:36.343Z,9766,1,9,8,1,1,0,11.8,53929,anon2330592203,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:23, topic:9766""] privacy-protecting [/quote] As there are layers (hierarchy) in networks - which level of privacy is needed at what layer? or: which level of transparency is needed depending on the specific needs of the layer in the network?" 48,98910,2021-08-24T19:59:34.530Z,9766,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,98323,anon3214242932,anon2330592203,"What are these ""interconnected flows"" more concretely?" 49,99086,2021-09-01T22:19:10.920Z,9766,0,8,7,1,1,0,6.6,98325,anon3197437925,anon2330592203,"[quote=""anon2330592203, post:47, topic:9766""] As there are layers (hierarchy) in networks - which level of privacy is needed at what layer? or: which level of transparency is needed depending on the specific needs of the layer in the network? [/quote] Not sure I understand the question the way you intended it, but here's the privacy challenge we faced. In any network bartering transaction in our system, I (as an example user) will be connected with a few other people in trades of goods and services. I will then get to know the real-world identities of these people, which is intentional. If we're on a blockchain, with enough data about real-world identities I can then do network analysis and figure out the network of suppliers for each of the participants. As in, the real-world identities of suppliers of companies that may be my competitors. And it is obviously unacceptable in a commercial context to leak this kind of information. If we're not on a blockchain, then there will be nothing to network analyze because there is no public pseudonymous record of transactions. Problem ""solved""." 1,52942,2019-04-30T02:32:35.425Z,9821,1,43,42,69,0,0,433.6,52942,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"We all use it the services, or are affected by them in some way. The basic economic bargain we accept is that we pay directly for connectivity and get the content without paying because we allow them to profile us to sell more targeted ads. There is some regulation, and in China and a few other countries the government controls everything, some news services now charge for their content in a subscription, some people just use free wifi and some people don't use Google or social media. But those are exceptions. The basic model is pay for connectivity and get the content ""free."" Any meaningful discussion about a human-centered internet has to deal with this fact and come up with a different model. Newcomers - please [sign up](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login) and join the conversation!" 2,52943,2019-04-30T02:35:03.078Z,9821,1,40,39,1,0,0,78.0,52942,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"I would much prefer for Facebook to be a subscription service where I pay them directly and they in turn treat me like I am the customer. That is almost certainly not going to happen because they make much more money with their current model. Same with Twitter, Google and all of these so-called free services. So what do we do?" 3,52944,2019-04-30T02:53:12.981Z,9821,0,39,38,1,0,0,27.8,52942,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"One avenue, which the EU seems more interested in than the USA, is regulation. Because in fact there is not much of it going on. Here are links to two interesting and worthwhile articles about Twitter. One concerns their rather conflicted CEO, Jack Dorsey and the other about anon2696444391 Twitter has effectively banned tweets about ISIS but allows white supremacists to do their thing more freely. In the Dorsey piece, he seems to be unable to get any real grip on what they should and should not allow, as if the whole thing ran away from him and his group long ago. Which in a sense it has, especially because its chief loyalty is to keeping its stock price up. In the other, it seems that the company would rather ban some Muslims unfairly so they can get rid of ISIS, but not run the risk of banning high-profile conservative (in the USA meaning Republicans) officials. What does this have to do with ads? Everything, because they need to do what they can to bring in as many eyeballs as possible, while maintaining some public impression of social responsibility. Dorsey looks like he might crack. Zuckerberg though seems to have no such qualms. https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/jack-dorseys-ted-interview-and-the-end-of-an-era https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3xgq5/why-wont-twitter-treat-white-supremacy-like-isis-because-it-would-mean-banning-some-republican-politicians-too" 4,52963,2019-04-30T10:57:18.821Z,9821,1,37,36,1,1,0,17.4,52942,anon2197402769,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:1, topic:9821""] The basic economic bargain we accept is that we pay directly for connectivity and get the content without paying because we allow them to profile us to sell more targeted ads. [/quote] This is summarized by the (a bit easy) statement: If its free, you yourself are the product." 5,52969,2019-04-30T12:21:09.949Z,9821,3,36,35,1,0,0,27.2,52963,anon3197437925,anon2197402769,"Funny enough, that does not apply to open source software (at least not in general). I wonder anon2696444391 we could have an opens source news economy …" 6,52971,2019-04-30T12:32:56.225Z,9821,1,37,36,1,1,0,62.4,52969,anon2197402769,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:5, topic:9821""] that does not apply [/quote] Yes, the statement is too easy in its generalization, but its a good discussion-opener (like: why is that service for free?). Of course there are a lot of gifts, and these should be really honored and valued as gifts." 7,52985,2019-04-30T14:24:50.698Z,9821,1,36,35,3,0,0,57.2,52971,anon3203746736,anon2197402769,"Unless it is a hobby or pro bono/charity, at some point people have to be paid for their work. I admit to at least some complicity in this whole process because in early 1994 I co-founded the first news website, sfgate.com, and we didn't make anyone pay for it. This was before Yahoo, Google, Amazon or any of the big web content providers. Everything was experimental. Back then, nobody was going to pay for any content. The reasons were not that different than they are now in the sense that connectivity got direct payment. Back then it not only cost money to connect, but it was kind of a hassle for the average user to even get onto the WWW. Everything was still modems outside of big net-connected institutions and businesses and while that was a big part of the early web traffic, those users were not going to get their universities or companies to pay. A lot of the time was spent in off hours when the boss wasn't looking. And if you used a modem things could get pretty slow. We often called WWW the ""world wide wait."" And print was still king back then, despite the large presence of proprietary services like AOL. So one could not realistically ask for money directly for content. And, there was no realistic way to collect the money unless you had an admin infrastructure set up to deal with it, which back then involved someone calling a new subscriber to make sure they had a valid credit card. So, we started by giving away selected news and sports stories to build traffic in the hope that sometime in the future we could charge for it. I think it was Wired! and their early pioneering service Hotwired! that ran the first banner ads. This was the start of the process we have today. And because I was working for a newspaper that had an ad sales department, we too sold some banner ads. Then Yahoo! began. This was the first game-changer. They had so much traffic that they could sell ads in bulk for very low per-impression prices. This forced everyone else to get more ""creative"" if they wanted to sell an ad. At the risk of going on too long in this post, let me pause to explain a reality about selling advertisements. You have a media product for which you want to sell ads. You go to an advertiser and make your pitch. They seem interested, but often they will say something like, ""looks good but can we do something a anon2488317424 different, a anon2488317424 more special?"" So you, the salesperson, thinks, ""if I say no we can't do that then I am going to walk out of here with nothing. If I say sure we can do something special, then I will put a burden on my tech people, but I will get the sale."" Good salespeople always take the money. So what special things can you do? At first, we manually put certain ads next to related content, but Yahoo, and in a few years Google, were getting the big-volume search traffic, far beyond anything we could do. We could automate it to a degree, but again, the volume just wasn't there. In our case, we bundled the online ads with the print and TV stuff (my company also owned a TV station and we ran TV content too). That was the extent of our sophistication, and this is generally true of the industry itself back then. Match ads with content in whatever meaningful way you could figure out. That was the pervasive model. Same with Google. Then in 2000/2001 came the dot-com bust period and the now-huge search companies had gone public and saw their stock price dropping. they had to do something or they were going to go bankrupt by losing their investors. Google realized that they were sitting on huge amounts of personal information that they could use for better ad targeting. And they had enough money to hire the best programmers. And so began the age of ""surveillance capitalism"" which is where we are today. Meanwhile, during this time, the big phone companies, that had been surprisingly clueless about the data gold mine they were sitting on, started to catch on and made it easier for the public to ""jack in."" In the process, the speed and convenience increased and they were able to begin raising their prices, locking in for themselves the direct-pay component of this new world. And, given Metcalf's Law, that says the network grows more powerful as each node connects to it, the Net's winner-take-all model pushed everything toward the reality we have today. Maybe it was all like a stream that started small and you could navigate your anon2488317424 boat, and then as it grew the current got to where you could only try to stay within the momentum of the flow...until, what - we all go over the waterfall?" 8,52986,2019-04-30T14:48:08.155Z,9821,0,31,30,1,0,0,26.2,52985,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Another key component of today's reality is what was originally called ""collaborative filtering,"" which was invented at the MIT Media Lab in the late 90s. My company was a sponsor of the Media Lab, which meant that I went to Cambridge twice a year from 1995-2001 for sponsor meetings where we saw demos of all the stuff they were working on, plus lectures, talks and meetings with industry luminaries. In 1996 (or 95, I forget which year) one of those people was Jeff Bezos. The memorable quote from his talk was, ""we're going to obsess about our customers and make our competitors obsess about us."" Pretty accurate, even today. At that same meeting, one of the groups at the Media Lab demonstrated the first iterations of collaborative filtering. The idea was simply ""if you like these things and someone else also likes them, then other things they like could be of interest to you and vice-versa."" Bezos saw immediately the possibilities of this and Amazon was the first large scale practitioner of what is now a huge core component of today's commercial internet. This is relevant to the free-with-ads model. One need only look at Facebook with a critical eye to see anon2696444391 this has taken on a life of its own. Their newsfeed is largely built on top of this concept. And in that form, it is key to driving people into the ""filter bubbles"" that are now widely studied by sociologists because they as seen as heavy contributors to our increasingly polarized societies. This is nowhere close to the good intentions of the Media Lab people who came up with the idea." 9,53021,2019-05-01T15:10:50.835Z,9821,0,30,29,1,0,0,11.0,52942,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Given the massive size and scope of the ad-based 'Net economy, I don't think there is any way to curtail or possibly even slow down this momentum. Regulation can help, but even with the huge fines the EU imposed on Google, it has no meaningful effect on their bottom line. The ethos of these companies, like Google and Facebook, can I believe be fairly characterized as ""better to ask forgiveness than permission."" And so they do frequently say in public anon2696444391 they got this or that ""wrong"" and then carry on their merry way. And it has to be said that huge numbers of people, anon2373157426 possibly a majority of users, are fine with this arrangement. or if they dislike something about it, they keep using the services. So I think realistically the key to this is working to increase public awareness and if there is to be regulation, it should be in the area of, ""do you know what you are trading off when you use these services and can you control it?""" 10,53230,2019-05-08T13:09:10.037Z,9821,1,32,31,1,1,0,121.4,52969,anon1753543892,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:5, topic:9821""] I wonder anon2696444391 we could have an opens source news economy … [/quote] This sounds like a good lead in for its own topic discussion!" 11,53241,2019-05-08T15:18:40.925Z,9821,2,34,33,1,0,0,66.8,53230,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"There are a few newish nonprofits in the USA trying to function as a viable news service. [This link lists 11 of them](https://mediablog.prnewswire.com/2018/01/17/non-profit-investigative-news-sites/). Mainly they engage in more investigative pieces. News is a tough business and it has always needed support from other aspects of its producer. newspapers relied on classified, horoscopes, columnists, sports and all kind of other items to support their core newsroom. Classified being the main one. For example, in the last year that I ran sfgate.com in 2001, the newspapers I worked for (there were 2 bound by what they called a ""joint operating agreement"" which in itself was designed to slow down the revenue drain that was already happening in the 60s) grossed 139 million dollars from classified advertising. The building had almost an entire floor of people who just took phone calls all day long for the ads. Today they don't even have a meaningful classified section at all. 139 million bucks is a anon2863106368 of money to simply lose altogether! In TV news, many don't know this, but in the early days, TV stations didn't want to carry news at all because it was not profitable to do it. But the federal government forced them as a condition of using the public airwaves. Even today I don't think TV news is particularly profitable. For all the attention it receives from other news outlets that talk about such things, only about 5% of the TV-watching population watches TV news on a regular basis (my estimate based on reading a number of sites talking about the subject). People get news from the internet, especially in younger demographics, but one can get into the weeds pretty quickly as you try to define what ""news"" even is. In this world of clicking to see things, it is now common for headlines to be more sensational and misleading as to the actual content of the story. AKA ""clickbait."" Seems like newsy blogs are especially this way, but then so are a lot of other more mainstream sites. This leads to other bad habits like 'burying the lede"" intentionally so you have to scroll down to find out the true nugget of the story. So, yeah, open source not-for-profit news I believe is essential to a free society. But anon2696444391 to get there...?" 12,53246,2019-05-08T16:51:29.260Z,9821,0,34,33,1,0,0,11.8,53241,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"This is a good example of a small, focused news site, [Climate Home News](https://www.climatechangenews.com/about-us/), that says it is open source, but is not nonprofit. They have sponsors and also accept donations through Patreon. They have a section called [Sponsored Content](https://www.climatechangenews.com/category/sponsored-content/) where their sponsors post their own news. They are a responsible operation and a good example of where at least some of news is hopefully going. But only if they can keep the lights on.." 13,53253,2019-05-09T00:25:37.565Z,9821,3,37,36,93,1,0,532.4,53241,anon3197437925,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:11, topic:9821""]So, yeah, open source not-for-profit news I believe is essential to a free society. But anon2696444391 to get there…?[/quote] Maybe it starts with re-assessing the use value (and dangers) of constant ""news"": https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/may/03/anon2696444391-the-news-took-over-reality For being able to understand and influence (!) current affairs, awareness of every detail is not necessary at all and takes away the time one could spend on actual understanding: reading long-form articles, books about history, philosophy, sociology and so on. And books on actually influencing things … dangerous link ahead: https://chisineu.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/saul-alinsky-rules-for-radicals-1989.pdf So my vision for an open source ""news"" economy would rather be that: a library of this in-depth content for active citizens. It would then recommend some of its content as suitable for each major event in society. Funding via Patreon (or better, its open source alternative [LiberaPay](https://liberapay.com/)) _could_ be possible, but I'm not sure. It's not something that too many people are really enthusiastic about so that they would spend money on it. But I might be wrong, and it would certainly be an important contribution to society. And a lot of valuable material is already out there and just waits to be collected and presented properly in a digital library of open source works. That would probably be my starting point. For reference, [doing just that](/t/8791) but for a different topic took me around 50-60 hours for 509 e-books (so far)." 14,53255,2019-05-09T01:34:46.395Z,9821,0,31,30,4,0,0,26.2,53253,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,"Great link to Alinsky. Breaking news is definitely overrated and often is a real attention hook. I admit I look at it too often, but really it is in the probably vain hope that Trump will be on his way out of our lives. I read the New Yorker, which I find to be a stanon4205961763r source of in-depth story and analysis. The Atlantic is the same. The New Yorker is unique in that it gets more revenue from circulation than advertisers. Loyal readership that wants the in-depth stuff by the best writers. I recommend it to anyone who wants the long view. Good website too - no need for paper if you don't want it. So that is what the top of the heap looks like where the best writers get paid well. Because that's the thing - and a big reason why most newspapers dropped their investigative desks long ago - it's very expensive to produce. Takes time and there are a lot of dead ends going after the story. Breaking news with splashy headlines get the clicks. And even in newspapers, as one of my pals with decades in the news business says, ""every newspaper story gets something wrong."" That has been my experience in the maybe dozen newspaper stories I have been featured in. But quick deadlines and no money for fact checking means a lot of inaccuracies. And bloggers or tiny operations often don't even have copy editors or proofreaders. I'm excited about the enthusiasm out there for a modern journalism that really serves the people. And I know a few in my locale who are dooing it local and small scale, but trying to do good journalism on a shoestring. But as the saying goes, don't mistake a clear vision for a short path. News is one tough business. Tight margins and fiercely competitive." 15,53257,2019-05-09T03:52:37.455Z,9821,2,30,29,2,0,0,71.0,53253,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,Nadia just offered this link to [Codastory](https://codastory.com/). It's a high-end news nonprofit with significant writers and donor partners. Plus they take donations directly. Impressive group. 16,53285,2019-05-09T14:43:04.187Z,9821,0,28,27,1,0,0,10.6,53257,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"And here is a piece that says after years of losses [The Guardian is profitable](https://www.niemanlab.org/2019/05/want-to-see-what-one-digital-future-for-newspapers-looks-like-look-at-the-guardian-which-isnt-losing-money-anymore/?utm_source=Benedict%27s+newsletter&utm_campaign=6950949865-Benedict%27s+Newsletter_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4999ca107f-6950949865-70493557). How they got there is noteworthy: it looks like they and The Financial Times are the only newspapers who get most of their revenue now from digital. And they do it without a paywall." 17,53292,2019-05-09T16:42:07.844Z,9821,2,28,27,2,0,0,40.6,53257,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,@anon2945747231 works with them I think. 18,53323,2019-05-10T21:31:45.433Z,9821,0,31,30,1,0,0,101.2,53292,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"This is a good New Yorker story called ""[The Urgent Quest for Slower, better News](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/the-urgent-quest-for-slower-better-news)."" It has this salient quote, ""As it turns out, there is a way to puncture this illusion of knowledge. It involves forcing people to explain in detail what would happen if their views on a specific public-policy issue were put into practice. It’s when we try to provide a “causal explanation,” Sloman and Ferbach write, that we realize anon2696444391 ignorant we are. That realization, in turn, leads us to become less extreme in our views. This insight has an obvious implication for media: depth matters. Journalism that engages with complexity, examines the implications of proposed policies, and offers the public rigorous analysis can lead to a more informed—and less polarized—citizenry. And yet, if Schudson is right, then only a small portion of readers will have the time, inclination, and disposition to become so ideally informed. Far more people will be monitorial, rather than informed, citizens—and, thanks to social media and high-volume news operations, they will be easily alarmed and distracted. Adding yet more stories to this maelstrom may make a certain economic sense for media organizations, but it won’t necessarily make us any better informed. It might only further fragment our knowledge.""" 19,53348,2019-05-13T06:05:30.289Z,9821,0,28,27,1,0,0,55.6,52942,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"I do agree with subscription agrument to some degree, but it'd be great if there was a system that would not just have money be thing giving you access to things (as not everyone has money globally, and this obviously will exclude people from certain opportunities/knowledge)" 20,53349,2019-05-13T06:47:11.580Z,9821,1,34,33,1,0,0,61.8,53292,anon2945747231,anon3828707713,"great discussion and great topic: the never-ending question of anon2696444391 to fund news in an ethical way ;). And yes, I work with codastory.com! Thanks for the kind compliments! But we're still trying to figure it out, as most of the news organizations are - at every journo conference there's several panels on ""anon2696444391 to not be paid by ads"" ;). A great initiative, in my opinion is https://civil.co/ - read here why it's CEO Vivian Schiller (the former head of National Public Radio and of news and journalism partnerships at Twitter) tries to innovate journalism by re-examining the quality of public information and raise public trust in evidence-based reporting through blockchain: https://blog.joincivil.com/why-im-joining-civil-ca474d8b7440 (it's still a bit unclear to me anon2696444391 civil works exactly, but.....). She'll be talking at [ZEG Tbilisi Storytelling Festival](http://tbilisistorytelling.com/) in Tbilisi June 20-22 (there are still tickets if you want an excuse to visit Tbilisi ;) ) Other great examples of not relying on any ad-related income in journalism are the Dutch The Correspondent https://thecorrespondent.com/ (tho they did F# up after fundraising in the US and not basing themselves there, but that's a different story), and the Slovakian Dennik N https://dennikn.sk/: y by using a complex analytical and automated system, they target their readers to become members. **They built this system by themselves, and [it's open-sourced](https://remp2020.com/).** The cheapest membership is a one-month membership deal. The software helps them to target the right readers: analytics tell them that someone reading it on an iphone is 5 times more likely to buy a 3 month membership deal than someone on android - so they sanon2696444391 a different deal to those than to android users. How it works: their long form reads are behind a paywall, but not fully. Readers can read several paragraphs, more than with others, before they hit the paywall. All members can get a shareable link and share the articles they want on social, giving their friends a one-time free pass to read the full story. They also publish one paragraph news stories without a paywall, often linked directly to other news sources. And they have a paper version, which they see as advertisement for their online platform. Also, worth mentioning is the Polish Outriders, for which I also write. https://outride.rs/en/" 21,53382,2019-05-13T14:43:40.570Z,9821,1,28,27,1,0,0,15.6,53349,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,"Dennik functions a lot like a few other new sites I have seen. I think it is a good way to go: give people enough substance that informs them enough to know if they want to go further, and then takes the payment, plus the one-time viewing when you share the link. I hope that succeeds. And it can only succeed if the quality behind the wall is worthy. So headline, opening paragraph and whole story have to be aligned." 22,53386,2019-05-13T14:58:36.252Z,9821,0,30,29,1,0,0,41.0,53382,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"they actually work together on back end stuff with The Correspondent, but difference is that The Correspondent has nothing behind a paywall. Dennik N has been running for 5 years, and are finally making more than spending, which allowed them to open a branch in the Czech Republic as well. OH: and they DONT cover sports, which I think is pretty cool (tho, who am I....) As I mentioned above, I am generally against pay walls, as I think information should be freely available to all. But, I do think for a Local newspaper in a local language, if the fee is affordable even for those with minimum wage, this could be an interesting model. It's not the model we're interested in with Coda Story. We started out with a fundraiser a few years ago, and are now funded by members, donations, and international donor organizations. But we're trying to figure out anon2696444391 we can rely more on non-pay wall membership, and that's anon2373157426 ""a puzzle"". There are a few organizations looking into anon2696444391 to increase engagement in journalism, and they are worth checking out (because an engaged member, will support you - either through donations or word of mouth): [The Membership Puzzle](https://membershippuzzle.org/) - founded by NYU professor Jay Rosen’s Studio 20 program and De Corresponden, funded by Knight Foundation, Democracy Fund, and Luminate. [Hearken](https://www.wearehearken.com/) - for-profit [Engaged Journalism Accelerator](https://www.engagedjournalism.com/) - run by the European Journalism Centre (EJC), funded by Civil and The News Integrity Initiative" 23,53395,2019-05-13T16:07:34.430Z,9821,1,29,28,1,1,0,15.8,53253,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:13, topic:9821""] And a lot of valuable material is already out there and just waits to be collected and presented properly in a digital library of open source works. That would probably be my starting point. For reference, [doing just that](/t/8791) but for a different topic took me around 50-60 hours for 509 e-books (so far) [/quote] Just a curiosity: anon2696444391 do you know that the 509 e-books are valuable? That would take longer than 50 hours to me." 24,53396,2019-05-13T16:28:07.833Z,9821,0,26,25,1,1,0,55.2,53395,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:23, topic:9821""]anon2696444391 do you know that the 509 e-books are valuable? That would take longer than 50 hours to me.[/quote] For the library I built, it did not take longer. It was quick because a lot of the value of tech content can be judged from the book's context (publication date and topic combination, the organization publishing it etc.). And since there is not _that_ much open source / free content around about these topics, it was often about taking the first substantial work that covers a topic, with the option of replacing it later when something better comes around. In the case of content on politics, sociology etc. it needs some more checking to weed out badly politically biased stuff, but also the library could probably be smaller." 25,53398,2019-05-13T16:54:28.357Z,9821,2,25,24,1,0,0,20.0,52942,anon1348216222,anon3203746736,"A big step forward is moving social presence from commercial platforms that harvest data (in order to target ads) to platforms (personal domains, decentralized and p2p social networks) that users control. The ad economy feeds on the firehose of personal data. Take that away, and business models built on microtargeting become less practical." 26,53399,2019-05-13T17:03:03.187Z,9821,2,28,27,1,0,0,35.6,53398,anon3203746736,anon1348216222,"Ultimately a producer (journalist, publisher or whatever) has to get paid or they will make a living some other way. When the product is substantial journalism in matters of serious public interest, so much of it comes without pay that the pull to get it ""free"" is overwhelming. Plus, subscribing individually to different news sites (and again, could be some other field besides journalism) you get into a lot of password and payment management. That is itself a daunting set of hoops. In many cases it is the difference between participation. This is true for me - 'oh no, another password to manage, another site holding my credit info.' Micropayment solutions have been tried in the past and have not worked. But maybe they are not easy enough. Maybe if it was as easy as dropping a coin into a slot so to speak, it might be viable. There has to be some kind of conscious bartering. Money or something else. Here is a [2015 article about why micropayments for news struggle to take off](https://digiday.com/media/micropayments-news-schemes-struggle-take-off/)." 27,53400,2019-05-13T17:21:13.034Z,9821,0,31,30,1,0,0,11.2,53399,anon1348216222,anon3203746736,"John, Perhaps there's an important distinction between two different advertising economies on the Internet: 1. The system where ads provide revenue that supports content (like journalism) that consumers used to pay for directly 2. The system where ads generate revenue by being interpolated amongst things like photos you share with your friends and family - This is content that people generate without an expectation that they will make revenue from it, but in fact the platforms are generating a great deal of revenue. We need an alternative model for case 1 so that content like journalism continues to be produced for the public benefit. Case 2 could (and perhaps should) be replaced by a system that doesn't have revenue generation/profit maximization as an objective." 28,53404,2019-05-13T18:25:00.946Z,9821,0,27,26,1,1,0,40.4,53398,anon3379761435,anon1348216222,"Hello @anon1348216222, welcome! I don't think we met. I'm Alberto, one of the old guard on Edgeryders. [quote=""anon1348216222, post:25, topic:9821""] A big step forward is moving social presence from commercial platforms that harvest data (in order to target ads) to platforms (personal domains, decentralized and p2p social networks) that users control. [/quote] Several people here, myself included, have been longing for a non-commercial generalist social network-type platform. After trying several things that did not do it for me (Diaspora, Ello etc.), I am now cautiously optimistic about something called [Scuttlebutt](https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/) aka SSB – 10 months in and I am still using it. Several people here use it. @anon2682865457 has made a passionate case for SSB + mesh networks [on this post](/t/9802)." 29,53407,2019-05-13T18:41:10.628Z,9821,1,24,23,1,0,0,14.8,53399,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"and blendle is actually struggling in NL right now, although I do think the idea in essence is really nice. I have paid for dutch articles that were behind a subscription pay wall otherwise, but other stories they offered I could find for free online." 30,53477,2019-05-14T17:10:12.602Z,9821,1,25,24,1,0,0,120.0,53407,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,"Some news orgs with paywalls send out free daily newsletters with headlines and a paragraph describing what is in the story. I get one from the LA Times and from Foreign Policy magazine. They both have paywalls, and I get a lot from their newsletters and do once in awhile click through to the story. These are pretty good examples of today's ""give away something in order to sell something"" practice. Historic footnote: do you know that a lot of this method of doing business came from the Grateful Dead? As a band they made a lot of albums that didn't sell. They were primarily a live band, and for those who ""got it"" they were the best band in the world, if you like rock music to be more like jazz in the sense that no two sanon2696444391s are exactly the same with a lot of jamming and free-form playing. So fans went to the concerts way more than they bought the records. The Dead allowed their fans to openly tape record the sanon2696444391s and share them afterwards. This encouraged more people to go see them live. This process led eventually to the late 80s when the Dead sold more live sanon2696444391 tickets than any other band. This was right when the Internet was getting started and a lot of early Netheads were also Deadheads. How do you think JP Barlow got so much early traction for his statements? And along with his pronouncements about cyberspace and liberty, he also stressed this fact about the Dead as a modern way to market products. The rest is, as they say, history.." 31,53478,2019-05-14T17:28:44.812Z,9821,3,25,24,1,0,0,115.0,53477,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"and this just happened https://www.niemanlab.org/2019/05/quartz-built-on-free-distribution-has-put-its-articles-behind-a-paywall/ ""At its debut nearly seven years ago, Quartz’s model was to be everywhere — not behind a paywall, not locked inside a mobile app, ready to build an audience through social sharing. But times change — and audiences change. In a move that got anon2488317424 attention last week, the much-lauded global business news site announced that for the first time it would be putting all its articles behind a metered paywall. Read more than 10 or so and you’ll get a pitch for the Quartz Membership, which runs $100 a year or $15 a month. (The membership program launched six months ago, but was originally framed as giving paying users access to more content; Quartz’s traditional articles had remained free to all.)""" 32,53479,2019-05-14T17:29:15.417Z,9821,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,53478,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,ps: that's an amazing story by the way! 33,53483,2019-05-14T17:47:59.505Z,9821,1,26,25,1,0,0,30.2,53478,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,It should also be said that news orgs tend to follow the pack a lot.. 34,53564,2019-05-15T17:53:37.480Z,9821,1,27,26,1,0,0,15.4,53483,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"To be completely honest, journalists aren't the most ""ahead of the curve"" unfortunately." 35,53565,2019-05-16T01:24:42.271Z,9821,0,27,26,1,0,0,10.4,53564,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,Usually too busy getting the story. 36,53592,2019-05-16T15:25:25.463Z,9821,0,25,24,1,0,0,25.0,53478,anon1753543892,anon2945747231,"@anon2945747231 Thank you very much for sharing the Quartz story! @anon" 37,53594,2019-05-16T16:44:18.664Z,9821,1,22,21,2,0,0,124.4,52942,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"All media - social or otherwise - could be behind a paywall. That is anon2696444391 it used to be except for hobby BBS systems. I think I said it already, but as a reminder, the advent of domination by advertisements came from the web being tiny and kind of hard to get into compared to other systems that back then depended on a CD that had the program on it. AOL mailed those things out by the millions over the years. You loaded the program and bang - ""you've got mail!"" Getting onto the web required at first that you have 2 different programs that you had to carefully configure loaded onto your Mac (which is what I had) and you had to have an account with an early ISP (Internet Service Provider). The big companies like ATT and Verizon didn't offer that. In Europe forget it at first. Telecom was still in the dark ages with their PTTs, until the mass use of mobile phones. In 1995 I was flown by Apple to New York and Los Angeles to give a talk in their big day-long event called the Apple Multimedia Road Sanon2696444391. The NY event was in a huge hotel right at Times Square. This is 1995 and I was the only person there talking about the Internet. Everyone else on the agenda was talking about CD ROMS. Can you imagine? I I get up there and my first slide says ""The Web is Like Rock and Roll."" And I said to them the Internet and the web was going to crash like a tsunami, and soon. Most in the crowd seemed to look at me sort of like, ""huh?"" Anyway the point is that those of us with a lot of content to offer on the web (like news - we had a anon2863106368 of it) had almost no chance of luring even modest numbers of people into paying for our initial product, especially if it was such a hassle and expense just to set up to use the thing when those CD services worked with a plain old phone line. So, ads...going that route brought us big numbers over time. Then it became the train you couldn't get off of. Now with paywalls they are trying. But we still route around them whenever we can, seems like." 38,53651,2019-05-18T14:23:05.629Z,9821,1,20,19,1,0,0,14.0,53594,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"And it should be said that a lot of people like the ads and they like them to be targeted. So maybe the ads aren't the real problem, but rather the data they use to target the ads more closely. Do you know what is being collected? Did you give permission?" 39,53653,2019-05-18T23:11:34.437Z,9821,1,20,19,1,1,0,59.0,53651,anon3197437925,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:38, topic:9821""]So maybe the ads aren’t the real problem[/quote] They totally are a problem. In the current ecological crisis, anything that increases consumption is a problem, no? And ads have been doing that since decades now, with all kinds of insidious techniques that exploit people psychologically …" 40,53656,2019-05-19T14:21:40.915Z,9821,1,24,23,1,1,0,74.8,53653,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:39, topic:9821""] In the current ecological crisis, anything that increases consumption is a problem, no? [/quote] This takes us straight into value theory. Ad-based is good for business, but what is business good for? After all, the NGI initiative is out to build a human-centric Internet; we already have a business-centric one, and it leaves much to be desired. A value theorist would say that an ad is an informational device that has value only if it contributes to the production of something of value. Matt has a point that many products bring *negative* value to the economy. For example, nothing good is going to come by consuming more carbonated drinks, so ads for them are also value destroyers." 41,53657,2019-05-19T14:49:19.645Z,9821,2,21,20,1,0,0,19.2,53656,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"Who decides? I agree that much advertisement is for harmful things and consumption is way out of control. And it does beg the question; should a real internet of human values include business prosperity? In the USA, similar to money contributing to political campaigns, advertisement is seen as a right of free speech. I'm not sure that is the case in Europe. But I have been wondering lately about this. Considering this is a project funded by the European Commission, in what I assume is an honest attempt to dig up worthy new approaches, is the intent for it all to be financed by the public through paying businesses either directly or indirectly and then the government just regulates it more, maybe a lot more? That doesn't sound very different from what we have now. That is just an incremental advancement, not a ""next generation.""" 42,53658,2019-05-19T14:53:13.493Z,9821,1,24,23,1,0,0,74.8,52942,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"This is a news story about anon2696444391 Finland deals with disinformation, AKA ""fake news"" by intensively educating kids from early age to be better critical thinkers. If we, as a population, think more critically, do we even need so much government interference? And is being educated to detect corporate propaganda different from being able to detect political manipulation? To quote a line from the story, “The first line of defense is the kindergarten teacher.” https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/05/europe/finland-fake-news-intl/" 43,53659,2019-05-19T14:54:28.123Z,9821,2,21,20,2,1,0,69.2,53657,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:41, topic:9821""] Who decides? [/quote] The U.N., apparently. The [System of National Accounting](https://unstats.un.org/unsd/nationalaccount/sna.asp) states what gets counted as part of the GDP and what does not. Fun fact: up until the 1970s, the profit of financial form was _not_ considered wealth creation, and would not be counted as part of a country's GDP. Finance was considered a necessary evil, that shifted value around, but did not create any. Banks lobbied hard for their profit to be considered as part of GDP... and won." 44,53660,2019-05-19T15:09:07.268Z,9821,0,23,22,1,0,0,9.6,53658,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Regarding critical thinking: " 45,53661,2019-05-19T15:19:54.647Z,9821,1,24,23,1,0,0,59.8,53659,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"I was in the first generation of kids heavily bombarded with TV ads specifically targeted to us. ""Hey kids - get Sugar Pop cereal - loaded with more sugar! Get these cookies, get this chocolate for your milk.."" etc etc. I was one of armies of kids who dragged their moms to the cereal aisle begging for the cereal with the most sugar. It was all brainwash manipulation from TV ads. Luckily for me, my mom was a nutritionist and wouldn't buy the stuff. Which I resented. Now the ads are much more insidious, much more sophisticated. And kids figure out anon2696444391 to fanon2945747231r their way through the web with iPads before they can walk. One thing I learned about advertisers running an ad-based website, is they always want more in the next round of ad buys. ""Ok that's good, but can you do more?"" This is the root of today's ultra-invasive advertisement based Net economy. The companies buying the ads see the Net as a targeting machine and they want more value for the money they spend. In a sense, it could be argued that FB and Google and their ilk are merely trying to satisfy this insatiable appetite." 46,53696,2019-05-20T21:10:40.483Z,9821,1,22,21,1,1,0,74.4,53659,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:43, topic:9821""]Banks lobbied hard for their profit to be considered as part of GDP… and won.[/quote] That's a great piece of knowledge, never heard that before. I always assumed that GDP had a bit more science behind it than it actually does – if it's possible to change it by _lobbying_, it's not more than an arbitrary agreement …" 47,53701,2019-05-21T04:24:22.648Z,9821,1,19,18,1,0,0,58.8,53661,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"Do we look at advertising as a whole that's a problem (as @anon3197437925 pointed out) - driving consumption. Or are there forms of advertising that could be more acceptable. Is the kind of products that are advertised (consumption focussed), or is the messaging (big data based decisions violating privacy)? I think there are a few more distinctions we need to make to make this into a valuable discussion. Because what about sponsored content? An article in The Atlantic that is openly labelled as advertising and clearly written for Microsoft, but still a pleasure to read. A video by The Big Story sponsored by the National Tourist Agency of country X - the video is still interesting, I know it is advertising. But perhaps even that is flawed. Because then there may be ways to manipulate it in such a way that we hardly know what's sponsored and what's not. Or what about sponsored events? It is advertising, but also helping groups to organize something which otherwise would've been difficult (ok, I know we're talking about the internet, but I feel this discussion is a bit broader even. or we should narrow it down?)." 48,53703,2019-05-21T07:23:46.366Z,9821,0,21,20,1,1,0,54.2,53696,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:46, topic:9821""] I always assumed that GDP had a bit more science behind it than it actually does – if it’s possible to change it by *lobbying* , it’s not more than an arbitrary agreement … [/quote] Source is Mazzucato's _[The Value of Everything](https://marianamazzucato.com/publications/books/value-of-everything/)_. Actually, I recommend it, to everyone but to you, Matt, in particular. And _of course_ it is an arbitrary agreement, when you think about it. Humans (who are different) need to agree on what is important, what has value. The book has a historical section: the physiocrats in 17th century France believed that only agriculture was ""production""; an ironsmith would be an unproductive worker, a kind of service provider, whose living was underwritten by the farming class. In this sense, the ironsmith would be as useless to society as a duke's valet (or the duke himself). Smith disagreed, and pointed out that manufacture is also productive, but disdained services, and so on. So, the agreement on what has value and what does not has been evolving – which makes sense to me. It's politics, and ethics, not science. It is also fitting that it should be encoded in a U.N. standard, since that makes the nature of GDP as a convention more transparent. That said, a hardline marginalist economist would tell you that there is an element of science encoded in the current concept of GDP. This: under certain (highly restrictive) conditions, individuals are led by their preferences to transact on the market until they achieve their optimal mix of goods/services/leisure. In the process, prices form to carry information about the marginal social value of all goods and services. This is proven as the first fundamental theorem of welfare economics. It means that each transaction increases someone's well-being. GDP, at its heart, is the sum of all transactions, net of double counting (intermediate goods are incorporated into final goods rather than counted, like in VAT calculation). Other economists (including non-hardline marginalists like Stiglitz) are aware that, even if the math checks out, the first theorem requires certain conditions to hold, *and these are not met in reality*. So, the theorem itself is irrelevant to real life." 49,53705,2019-05-21T09:00:38.630Z,9821,1,21,20,30,1,0,159.2,53701,anon3379761435,anon2945747231,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:47, topic:9821""] Or are there forms of advertising that could be more acceptable. [/quote] I think of this in terms of value rather than acceptability. When I am browsing the Internet, do I want to see ads? Do they do something for me? Generally, no. They may be beautiful and creative and all that: that's great. When I want to look at pretty pictures and clever videos, I will be searching for them. But if I am not searching for them, I don't want to see or hear them. I prefer to be in charge: the same content may be ham or spam, depending on the context. So, the idea here is: ads enable certain business models. But at the same time, they have costs. I remember @anon3197437925 saying that 90% of bandwidth is used to convey ad crap. If we did not have that, we could connect the world with a leaner, cheaper, more inclusive experience: no need for 5G, and probably for 4G as well (I have no source for this). I am interested in a rough cost--benefit analysis of ads: ads themselves, I would argue, are almost always on the cost side, even when they are beautiful, because they stand between us and the content we are trying to get to. On the other hand, if you go to events like [La nuit des publivores](http://www.nuitdespublivores.be/), ads become a good thing, the very thing you are looking for." 50,53709,2019-05-21T09:35:16.079Z,9821,1,21,20,1,0,0,59.2,53705,anon2945747231,anon3379761435,"I am not a huge fan of advertising myself as well, and fully agree with you. But the reason I mentioned it is that I am absolutely not against subscription-based services, **unless** they give the people with access a significant advantage (such a information, valuable connections, knowledge) over those who cannot afford those services. But perhaps it could be more like ""pay what you can"", tho anon2696444391 would that work? How do you proof income on a global scale? What other systems can we think of that allows anyone the same access to information/knowledge/ connections/etc? Advertising so far has made that possible, the question is at what cost of course." 51,53711,2019-05-21T09:45:09.751Z,9821,1,22,21,1,1,0,29.4,53709,anon3379761435,anon2945747231,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:50, topic:9821""] What other systems can we think of that allows anyone the same access to information/knowledge/ connections/etc? [/quote] The time-honored solution is public good provision, funded by taxes or whatever. If you think that the Internet is a public good, like education or health care or parks, then it becomes obvious. Of course, the question is: _which_ internet is a public good? Wikipedia is easy to cast as a public service. But is watching football matches from your phone also a public service?" 52,53713,2019-05-21T11:10:57.042Z,9821,1,19,18,1,0,0,13.8,53711,anon2945747231,anon3379761435," I think it's a very noble idea, but rather hard to execute: who will pay through taxes - should a new international institution be set up similar to UN - or part of the UN - pay for it? And what about China and Russia and their aims to make a sovereign internet (https://codastory.com/authoritarian-tech/global-rise-internet-sovereignty/), which will inadvertently lead to a less equal and open world/internet. And the US-China tech-cold-war with Huawei and DJI isn't helping either https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/21/18633744/dhs-alert-china-drones-dji-huawei. Meaning, anon2696444391 likely is it that all countries would be willing to join in together. And if not all countries, do others pay for those who don't?" 53,53721,2019-05-21T12:44:05.607Z,9821,1,17,16,2,1,0,33.4,53713,anon3379761435,anon2945747231,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:52, topic:9821""] I think it’s a very noble idea, but rather hard to execute. [/quote] What? *It's anon2696444391 we got the Internet in the first place*. Take Italy: the first entity who connected to it, laying the fiber for the first trunk of the Italian backbone, was [CINECA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CINECA) around 1990-1991. That's a not-for-profit consortium of unis, sharing computing resources; a sort of computing coop among universities. The telcos and tech sector were nowhere to be seen – busy burning CD ROMs. like @anon3203746736 says above. [brag] My company at the time bought from CINECA a connectivity paid service in early 1993. I think we were one of only 12 Italian companies to have a website.[/brag] :smile: The same financing mechanism is also giving us health care, education, defense and art... why do you find it so unrealistic, @anon2945747231." 54,53722,2019-05-21T13:03:26.595Z,9821,2,18,17,2,0,0,23.6,53721,anon2945747231,anon3379761435,"I find it a bit unrealistic in a sense that I think Russia and China would not join - and possibly other dictatorships as well, making the case for them to ""build their own -cut off from the rest of the world - internet"" (https://codastory.com/news/russia-sovereign-internet-law-passes-2nd-vote/) even stronger. Yes, it is already happening, but if you're asking them to pay for the internet of all, they'll probably turn their backs? And, I think that's really not great for the people living in those countries. So, rather helping the world, it could be having the opposite effect. But - hypothetically - I am totally for it. And if we're ok with a divided internet - sure. But i'd personally rather see China remove the walls they've already built around their internet. And, at least now citizens can get around things and access content they want to, but this may become anon2373157426 difficult if it's pushed more behind walls." 55,53723,2019-05-21T13:05:53.810Z,9821,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,53722,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"FYI: not saying it's not the answer, but I'm skeptical about anon2696444391 it would work would the two most powerful countries not join" 56,53724,2019-05-21T13:44:33.445Z,9821,1,18,17,1,1,0,13.6,53722,anon3379761435,anon2945747231,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:54, topic:9821""] if you’re asking them to pay for the internet of all, they’ll probably turn their backs [/quote] Again, that's what happened already. It was not Americans or Europeans that paid for the Russian backbone! It was Russians. They did not turn their backs, because the scientific and connecting uses were incentive enough to install the fiber, even without the app economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Russia#Backbone" 57,53726,2019-05-21T13:52:14.664Z,9821,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,53724,anon2945747231,anon3379761435,but then what about their recent moves actually turning away? Then is different from now 58,53728,2019-05-21T14:26:09.527Z,9821,1,17,16,1,0,0,58.4,53726,anon3379761435,anon2945747231,"I think that does not have much to do with the financing model. It's more of a national security/national sovereignty thing. Westerners are now (rightly) complaining about foreign interference into our digital discussion spaces. In countries like Iran, dissenters took to Twitter in the late 200s, and that must have felt like foreign interference from the point of view of the powers that be: like some foreign country giving all your internal troublemakers a communication channel that you are not prepared for. I was in Tunisia in 2010, just before the Spring, and the government had figured out anon2696444391 handy it was to have one single entry point for the backbone (from the Mediterranean, in the north). They were throttling the whole Internet with a blacklist of sites you were not allowed to visit. Early days, but the trend was clear: security and intelligence folks like digital borders." 59,53730,2019-05-21T15:37:19.694Z,9821,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,53728,anon2945747231,anon3379761435,"ok, so maybe I am pessimistic and they'll be ok with joining in financially for a shared infrastructure. Because what Russia and China are building is, in my understanding, not just blocking off things, but building their own - but maybe my own understanding of anon2696444391 the internet is built isn't sufficient to fully understand it. Now, I understand the financing of the infrastructure, but anon2696444391 about content? Services? Who decides what should be funded? Kinda like a donor organization with an independent board that looks over grant proposals? Or with a community voting? Pref the latter probably, but then anon2696444391 can trolling, disinformation, etc be prevented? Ugh, so many questions! ;)" 60,53731,2019-05-21T16:11:42.615Z,9821,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,53730,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,"I think with China the government controls everyone already - what they can and can't see, say or do. But the commercial channels between Chinese and European customers is something they would not want to break. As for ads eating so much bandwidth, sometimes you can see it if you watch the URLs loading. It used to be much worse back when Doubleclick dominated the ad serving space. You clicked on a link to some (often news) site, and it would hang on loading the ads. Still does that a lot of the time. as for sponsored content, in news there has always been what was called a ""church-state separation."" Anyone reading a newspaper could immediately tell what was an ad of course, but other sponsored content had to be printed in a font clearly different from the regular news font, plus it would always say something like ""special sponsored section."" A paper will still do that, but the websites often do not. And that is exactly what a sponsor wants. They do not see their job as upholding the integrity of news. Their job is to sell products and anon2696444391ever they get there is fair game. And when you have salespeople who don't get paid unless they serve the sponsor's interest...well, you have todays reality." 61,53732,2019-05-21T18:01:51.374Z,9821,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,53657,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,"This is a conversation I would like to see more people in. Top of mind right now are the the crowd behind fixadtech as they have filed GDPR complaints about Real-Time Bidding (RTB) in the online advertising industry were filed today with Data Protection Authorities in Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg. One of the people driving it, Dr. Johnny Ryan testified today at the [US Senate Judiciary Committee hearing](https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/meetings/understanding-the-digital-advertising-ecosystem-and-the-impact-of-data-privacy-and-competition-policy)[ on Understanding the Digital Advertising Ecosystem and the Impact of Data Privacy and Competition Policy](https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/meetings/understanding-the-digital-advertising-ecosystem-and-the-impact-of-data-privacy-and-competition-policy). But more than the opposition to it, I would like to know what alternative framings and approaches people are experimenting with. Especially ones that scale. During a recent event I heard about through @anon Anyone looking at alternatives that we know of?" 62,54131,2019-05-29T09:10:07.240Z,9821,2,18,17,1,1,0,78.6,52969,anon1608948641,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:5, topic:9821""] I wonder anon2696444391 we could have an opens source news economy … [/quote] To be a bit polemic here: I don't think we need more _news_. News is what got it into the current mess. What we need is journalism, in the sense of researching, explaining, categorizing, reminding, and so on. Alas, that is a lot of work, and the result is a lot of work to consume too - you have to read in-depth articles to fully grok a given topic, and given our increasingly complex world, things are only getting more complicated, not less. The other side of the problem is _time_. We can only spend so much time per day consuming media. And while the global audience is pretty big, the ""media consumption per day"" is a finite resource. And journalism competes with music, games, movies, tv sanon2696444391s, books, theater, individual conversations & gossip, lack of time because people need to have three jobs, and so on. And as now basically everyone can crank out content (watch me doing it _right now, right here!_), the competition for attention is getting even fiercer! Book authors not only compete with all the other media for attention, but they also compete with fanfiction, hobby authors, the giant backlog of already published books available for free on Project Gutenberg, and so on... So even if you create top-notch content, entertainment, education or information, you need to get it out to people to see it. And then, yes, make money from it in some way too. And on both of these fronts, the competition is _fierce_. Right now, the solution seems to be to make the content as tantalizing, attention-grabbing and as a result even controversial as possible, while at the same time attaching the ideal price tag of ""free"" to it. The latter means that we finance through ads, and the former means that the content choices err on the side of flashy and/or controversial. And the ad-financing then reinforces the second choice, because more attention means more ad-money too! Long story short: **Ad-financing content is the worst!** Really, it's the original sin of the internet, and we should push it away as far as possible." 63,54155,2019-05-29T14:49:28.487Z,9821,0,20,19,1,0,0,24.0,54131,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,"Good description of the problem. Citizenship takes work that imposes itself onto other activities we prefer to do. Not sure of the solution. ""Education"" is an easy answer, but my boomer generation was, and perhaps still is, the most educated generation in history - certainly in the US this is true, but I think also for a great deal of Europe - and I don't see a lot of collective smarts or wisdom coming from my age group. Far from it." 64,54158,2019-05-29T15:02:32.054Z,9821,0,20,19,1,0,0,54.0,52943,anon3137039191,anon3203746736,"Totally agreed! Also, since our data is going to the add industry anyways, why cant we at least have more sovereignty by pre-selecting who is receiving the data? I can still receive adds but at least I choose them." 65,54194,2019-05-30T07:34:45.093Z,9821,0,20,19,1,0,0,99.0,52942,anon3005461236,anon3203746736,"Here, an extremely good example on anon2696444391 we are forced fed with ads by means that we as humanity are incapable of protecting ourself from. This is why Internet for humans is needed. https://m.slashdot.org/story/356372" 66,54197,2019-05-30T08:40:25.100Z,9821,1,19,18,1,1,0,73.8,54131,anon3379761435,anon1608948641,"[quote=""anon1608948641, post:62, topic:9821""] Long story short: **Ad-financing content is the worst!** Really, it’s the original sin of the internet, and we should push it away as far as possible. [/quote] At the Stockholm event, I was telling @anon3005461236 anon2696444391 the history of the Internet forked in 1993, when it was made legal to use it for commercial purposes. The initial hacker ethos stayed for anon2373157426 a long time, and I myself saw the tail end of it in the early 2000s. But that decision was what flipped the whole thing. If I were @anon" 67,54198,2019-05-30T08:57:07.808Z,9821,1,18,17,2,1,0,48.6,54197,anon1608948641,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:66, topic:9821""] I can hardly imagine capitalism in the 2020s *without* Internet ads! [/quote] it is at once amazing and terrifying what amount of money and resources got shifted around thanks to Internet ads. I daresay that some good came out of it too, but overall, we should abandon that model now :)" 68,54201,2019-05-30T09:30:04.717Z,9821,2,16,15,1,0,0,33.2,54198,anon3005461236,anon1608948641,"Its clear that we need to discuss this topic, irl in depth some time." 69,54202,2019-05-30T09:36:01.567Z,9821,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,54201,anon1608948641,anon3005461236,"happy to, where are you based, or where are you visiting in the foreseeable future? :)" 70,54220,2019-05-30T13:21:30.311Z,9821,1,17,16,1,0,0,73.4,54202,anon3005461236,anon1608948641,I'm planing a visit to Blanon2066456771de in Stockholm in late june to meet and discuss 'Building communities' with @anon659222949 and a few friends from my local community (a small town). Its an oportunity to at least meet if you are in Stockholm. 71,54246,2019-05-30T15:37:01.972Z,9821,0,17,16,1,0,0,38.4,54220,anon1608948641,anon3005461236,"not anon2373157426, I'm Berlin based.." 72,54772,2019-06-09T16:47:24.663Z,9821,2,18,17,1,0,0,78.6,54201,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"Maybe we could start with a scheduled community call on the topic? Who would be interested in participating? @anon1608948641 and @anon3005461236, could that work for you as a first / second step? @anon2945747231 would you be up for joining as well?" 73,54773,2019-06-09T17:07:17.860Z,9821,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,54772,anon1608948641,anon1753543892,I'm up for that! 74,54775,2019-06-09T17:10:37.844Z,9821,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,54773,anon1753543892,anon1608948641,Great! Which times usually work for you? 75,54779,2019-06-09T19:10:00.626Z,9821,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,54775,anon1608948641,anon1753543892,"I work in a home office and am europe-based, so anything that isn't in the night can probably be accommodated, given enough heads-up. Thursday and Friday this week are booked though." 76,54784,2019-06-10T06:26:59.252Z,9821,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,54772,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,"love to take part! I'm Tbilisi-based, so that's two hours ahead of Brussels. Flexible time and day wise, except for Monday afternoons and Thursday mornings." 77,54794,2019-06-10T13:53:40.497Z,9821,0,18,17,2,0,0,13.6,54784,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,Mornings for me are afternoons for you. Right now when it is 4 PM in Brussels it is 7 Am in California. That is pretty much the earliest realistic time for me on a given day. We tend to have other calls on Mondays and Tuesday so other days would be best. 78,54796,2019-06-10T15:10:05.150Z,9821,1,18,17,1,0,0,28.6,52942,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,"So lets start planning: 1. What should be the specific topic of the call? My proposal: *What could be done about the Ad-based internet economy with emphasis on the news"" or ""Any news @anon 2. Who is free when? Fill out the doodle doc here: https://doodle.com/poll/6q3zg9c34hstu6cu 3. Who would be up to/who would you like to take the topical lead during the call? Also, see this post for general planning for community calls: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-calls-lets-talk-almost-face-to-face/10110 looking forward to talking to you :)" 79,54812,2019-06-10T20:26:04.407Z,9821,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,54796,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"@anon2945747231 thank you so much for filling out the google form already, but when I checked it out I recognized that I set it up wrong. The time slots were supposed to be 1 hour slots between 16:00 and 19:00. Here is the updated link: https://doodle.com/poll/6q3zg9c34hstu6cu I will also change it in the original post. If you could input your times again, that would be amazing!" 80,54828,2019-06-11T05:09:45.622Z,9821,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,54812,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,Done :) 81,54830,2019-06-11T05:50:25.944Z,9821,1,14,13,1,0,0,27.8,54828,anon3828707713,anon2945747231,Guys dont forget to put up an event invitation that we can then share with broader community... 82,54856,2019-06-11T10:40:39.486Z,9821,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,54830,anon2945747231,anon3828707713,"tho there isn't a date and time set, isn't it better to push this when we have a concrete plan? Or should we have an event invitation already up earlier so other community members can give their input in doodle as well?" 83,54857,2019-06-11T10:42:40.881Z,9821,2,17,16,1,0,0,18.4,54856,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,never mind https://anon1577251828.eu/t/upcoming-community-call-any-news-ad-based-economy/10122 :) 84,54859,2019-06-11T10:50:19.580Z,9821,1,19,18,1,0,0,13.8,54857,anon1753543892,anon2945747231,Do you guys think we should push it back two weeks or such to invite more people or go ahead to get things going? 85,54860,2019-06-11T10:53:41.309Z,9821,0,19,18,1,0,0,8.8,54859,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,I think we should go ahead if we can get good people. If it's too far ahead people also may forget about it. what do you think? 86,54865,2019-06-11T11:14:04.189Z,9821,0,20,19,1,0,0,24.0,54857,anon3828707713,anon2945747231,:joy: things move fast around here 87,55102,2019-06-13T16:40:18.034Z,9821,1,19,18,2,0,0,63.8,52942,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,"![finance instability (1).png](https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/7/75833b6302f06911c3d205a0409a61739ff2bfba.png) Hello, dear community members, we are planning the next coming up community call. *What could be done about the Ad-based internet economy with emphasis on the news?* An (almost) face to face discussion extending this discussion. It will take place on *Tuesday the 18th of June from 18:00 to 19:00 Brussels time on zoom* If you are interested: 1. Feel free to specify and propose your own spin on it before and during the call. 2. Invite whoever you think might be interested from within and outside the platform. 3. Tell us if you would you like to take some of the topical lead during the call? Who would maybe prepare some questions or a case study/project to present to others? Please comment here if you are interested and @anon" 88,55110,2019-06-13T20:05:15.564Z,9821,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,55102,anon1608948641,anon1753543892,I should be able to be there. Will you post the zoom link here? 89,55111,2019-06-13T20:14:15.277Z,9821,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,55110,anon1753543892,anon1608948641,Yes :) 90,55172,2019-06-14T16:09:30.070Z,9821,1,17,16,1,0,0,43.4,52942,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,"Edgeryders Team is inviting you to a community call: Topic: Any news @anon Time: Jun 18, 2019 6:00 PM Brussels Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/859462719" 91,55190,2019-06-14T19:12:15.902Z,9821,0,16,15,1,0,0,38.2,52942,anon3554387720,anon3203746736,"Hey folks :slight_smile: New here and just stumbled over this very interesting thread. I have been thinking for a couple of year about a way that the ad business, and revenue models for content production and curation needs to change. (And actively working in a direction that it will change) IMO all existing approaches don't work for their own reasons. What they share is that they are coming from an old thinking where we translate anon2696444391 print worked into the digital age. 1. Ads. Obvious why they don't work. They put an incentive on quantity of content and shallow clicks, they drive the spread of emotional (mis)information instead of wisdom and useful information. However we need to be aware that ads will always be around as they are a tool for the market to optimise distribution by making consumers aware of products and services. The question is if that stays the main income source of online outlets. The good thing is that ads bring in money that neither the publisher, nor the consumer has to pay for. 2. Subscription models They are a good start and it helped to validate that people are willing to pay for quality content. What makes the subscription model good is that it frees content providers from the necessity of optimising for clicks, but may be able to focus on producing quality content again. However they effectively create a 2 tier consumer society where some people just won't have access to this information. In my view it working somewhat against the purpose of journalism: to inform people. From a user perspective they are also horrible. Most readers are not reading content from just one provider, so buying a subscription from every of their sources is a decision making overkill and frankly too time consuming. Paid news aggregators only ease that problem, they don't solve it. What about all those anon2488317424 websites that are not big household names like the nytimes? How are they going to be funded if they are not included in something like Apple News or Blendl? 3. Micropayment Services The really good thing was that a user can determine for themselves anon2696444391 much worth their media consumption overall is and distribute the funds to any provider, big and small. This make an approach inclusive to many different types of contributions and potential income to smaller bloggers too. A student might just be able to pay 5 bucks, a CEO 200 and so forth. However approaches like Flattr didn't work because the service required to find an audience that values journalism enough to sign up for such a new service. From a UX perspective practically unusable as it required users to manually press a butanon2863106368 for each article they want to pay. Big decision paralysis and frankly too much effort. ### So anon2696444391 could a new approach look like? I think the inclusivity and user-centric flexibility of something like Flattr is the biggest step in the right direction I have seen so far. We've seen people like to pay, but we need to solve the UX issues that users have to decide who to give the money to. This needs to happen automatically. The question is anon2696444391? For doing so it would require having extensive data that can help to determine the usefulness/quality of content people see, and such a solution needs to be baked into another value proposition. It can't be a standalone service like Flattr. One of the outputs of the project we run is to provide that data and that service to build on. At worldbrain we develop Memex, an open source tool to search your web history, annotate and collaborate with peers when doing web research. So you can search for websites, papers and social posts you've seen with the vague memories you have. Like ""that article I visited last January with the words ""climate change"" in the text, it was on the nytimes."" To make search possible the tool gathers data about anon2696444391 users interact with content. (e.g. anon2696444391 long did they stay, anon2696444391 far they scrolled, if shared/liked on social media, sent via email/messenger with (positive) sentiment) All data is stored locally of course and no data will ever be sent anywhere without user consent. Soon we will provide an API on which developers and entrepreneurs could build new tools with that data. One of those could be a plugin that detects the the subjectively most useful content based on interaction data and automatically distributes the funds a user has allocated for their media consumption. This would IMO view solve the UX issues associated with current approaches to micropayments. Brave has also been going into that direction and it seems to work pretty well. They still combine it with ads though, which is an OK step in-between but hopefully ads will not play such a big role anymore or the market has adjusted to only wanting to run ads on useful content. For more information on Memex, check out this post: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/introducing-oliver-worldbrain-io-memex-and-storex-democratising-knowledge/10157" 92,55193,2019-06-14T19:12:49.879Z,9821,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,55172,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,Gladly joining :) 93,55194,2019-06-14T19:13:46.397Z,9821,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,55193,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,Great :) 94,55206,2019-06-15T07:34:51.627Z,9821,2,15,14,1,0,0,33.0,52942,anon3747875924,anon3203746736,"Hi @anon3203746736 also see this one by Noam Kolt in Yale Law & Policy Review (via [SSRN](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3362880)): ""Consumers routinely supply personal data to technology companies in exchange for services. Yet, the relationship between the utility (U) consumers gain and the data (D) they supply — “return on data” (ROD) — remains largely unexplored. Expressed as a ratio, ROD = U / D. While lawmakers strongly advocate protecting consumer privacy, they tend to overlook ROD. Are the benefits of the services enjoyed by consumers, such as social networking and predictive search, commensurate with the value of the data extracted from them? How can consumers compare competing data-for-services deals? Currently, the legal frameworks regulating these transactions, including privacy law, aim primarily to protect personal data. They treat data protection as a standalone issue, distinct from the benefits which consumers receive. This article suggests that privacy concerns should not be viewed in isolation, but as part of ROD. Just as companies can quantify return on investment (ROI) to optimize investment decisions, consumers should be able to assess ROD in order to better spend and invest personal data. Making data-for-services transactions more transparent will enable consumers to evaluate the merits of these deals, negotiate their terms and make more informed decisions. Pivoting from the privacy paradigm to ROD will both incentivize data-driven service providers to offer consumers higher ROD, as well as create opportunities for new market entrants.""" 95,55221,2019-06-15T13:10:39.633Z,9821,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,55206,anon2489867874,anon3747875924,"Just as a note - I ran a large web site/forum for 18 years and then another mid-sized for five and I never used any visitor data for anything....although I must admit to having sanon2696444391n some adsense ads on the larger site. Truth is, they never paid very well. I happened to find the ad model worked for me - due to lower overhead (just me, part time) and also due to ""direct to client"" ads. Since there was no such thing as an ad network at the time, I contacted manufacturers of said products (high efficiency wood/pellet stoves, etc.) and had them pay yearly fees from $800 to 10K+ for being featured on the site. I never packed any pages with ads so received zero complaints over two decades. The site was profitable (although I never started or ran it for money!) from the first year until I sold it. The second site was also educational on robotic tech and cameras. Once again I used ads, but in this case they were affiliate. It turned out there were very few vendors of such products, so the readers were going to buy ""Brand Y"" almost no matter what...but if they bought it after reading my ""free"" information, I got a cut of it. That did very well also...although again, not intended to make money. I will note this. The Affiliate model was one of diminishing returns while the ""direct client"" ad model was not. This is due to the obvious...once a site can make money with Affiliates, 100 sites (or more) will eventually pop up with anon2488317424 or no content but designed just to slice off a piece of that pie. Income from that site was cut in 1/2 three years in a row. It doesn't take math skills to see that this is not a sustainable model. Still, if the topic had still interested me I would have kept the site even with just ""beer money"" income. What amazes me is these well known sites (CNN, etc.) that literally have 100 ads or more (mostly clickbait stuff at the bottom). That is pure desperation as the return per ad has to be incredibly low. Top down change in those cases could come from ad networks by their limiting of allowable number of ads on each page. But they have anon2488317424 impetus to do so. Anyway, just some short stories to sanon2696444391 that ad-supported situations can work....seems less so as time goes by, tho." 96,55251,2019-06-16T20:12:16.509Z,9821,1,14,13,1,1,0,12.8,55206,anon3379761435,anon3747875924,"[quote=""anon3747875924, post:94, topic:9821""] While lawmakers strongly advocate protecting consumer privacy, they tend to overlook ROD. [/quote] I am no legal scholar, but this may be because data protection is assimilated to privacy, a human right. Human rights doctrine ringfences away from market logic some aspects of human life. For example, there is certainly a return on child labor (ROCB) – just ask 19th century mine owners. There is also a return on selling yourself away as a slave (ROSYAAS) – and indeed this move was the last recourse of debt-ridden farmer in many societies, including ancient Babylonia. But modern lawmakers conclude that such practices are degrading and should be outlawed, not monetized. Maybe the regulators mentioned in the paper have a similar mindset about consumer privacy (I prefer to talk of ""individual"" privacy)." 97,55292,2019-06-17T11:55:16.381Z,9821,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,55251,anon3747875924,anon3379761435,"Interesting that you read it that way. Rights are both enjoyed and exercised, both of which may well include the generation of value (independent newspapers are a case in point, having a business model and maintaining an infrastructure for freedom of expression / public discourse does not mean rights are monetized). Whether the idea of a return means monetization depends on the values, and there is more than one logic of markets. For people to have a better sense of anon2696444391 (commercial / non-commercial) value is generated with data they provide makes sense to me (also because it resonates with my own interests in whiteboxing tech); and while this particular author begins with customers (of social media platforms, for example) rather than citizens (or non-citizens, for that matter) more broadly, the wide scope - see refs to the debate on whether data is capital or labor - suggests that we are still relatively early in that process of coming to terms with anon2696444391 data operates in processes of value creation..." 98,55319,2019-06-17T19:50:05.957Z,9821,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,55292,anon3203746736,anon3747875924,"I like the notion of ROD, but would there ever be a way to get to a realistic number? Would those companies honestly disclose that value? And maybe it isn't very high per-person but becomes very valuable when aggregated in big groups. Regardless, I do think that an individual should know what data is gathered, what gets rolled up into big group numbers, anon2696444391 it is used, all of that. Only then could you decide if it is worth it to you or not." 99,55780,2019-06-26T20:59:54.733Z,9821,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,52942,anon3005461236,anon3203746736,Obfuscating to mess with ads? https://m.slashdot.org/story/357538 100,55783,2019-06-27T00:23:22.743Z,9821,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,55780,anon3203746736,anon3005461236,Clever..have you tried it? 101,55789,2019-06-27T07:57:31.885Z,9821,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,55783,anon3005461236,anon3203746736,"Not yet, but I will =)" 102,56468,2019-07-10T15:29:37.274Z,9821,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,52942,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"An interesting quote from _""Chaos Monkeys""_ by Ananon2863106368io Garcia Martinez: > In media, money is merely expendable ammunition; data is power. With this new programmatic technology that allowed each and every ad impression and user to be individually scrutinized and targeted, that power was shifting inexorably from the publisher, the owner of the eyeballs, to the advertiser, the person buying them. If my advertiser data about what you bought and browsed in the past was more important than publisher data like the fact that you were on Yahoo Autos right then, or that you were a (supposedly) thirty-five year old male in Ohio, then the power was mine as the advertiser to determine price and desirability of media, not the publisher's. As it turned out, this ""first party"" advertiser data - the data that companies like Amazon know about you - is more valuable than any publisher data. > >This was a seismic shift that would affect everything about anon2696444391 we consume media, leaving publishers essentially powerless and at the service of the various middlemen between them and advertiser dollars, all in the name of targeting and accountability. If the publisher wasn't savvy enough to arm itself with sophisticated targeting and tracking before tangling with the media-buying world, then that world would come to them, in the form of countless arbitrageurs and data quacks peddling media snake oil. Which is why even august publishers like the _New York Times_ live at the pleasure of the media supply-side technology, data management solutions, and advertiser technologies that ostensibly pay them. Of course some very protective publishers like Google and Facebook, with unique media offerings, refuse to get arbitraged so openly, and to one degree or another, attempt to own the technical and the business connections between them and their advertising dollars." 103,58801,2019-09-05T02:16:32.800Z,9821,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,52942,anon3005461236,anon3203746736,"Google moves towards implmenting a plugin/extension API to prevent ad-blockers to be effective in Chrome. Mozilla seems to fight back. https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2019/09/03/mozillas-manifest-v3-faq/" 104,58802,2019-09-05T05:26:24.649Z,9821,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,58801,anon2945747231,anon3005461236,"ugh. several years ago when I talked with internet startups I advised them to move away from ad-based revenue models, as everyone would soon be using ad-blockers - but I see I was wrong: big tech is more than happy to revert it back to ad-based. Can we not come up with something more creative to make money but to shove products into our faces we don't really need?" 105,58827,2019-09-05T12:59:53.408Z,9821,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,58802,anon2489867874,anon2945747231,"There are many decades of experience in media (newspapers, radio, TV, etc.) which I think got creative enough to know the basic score. Ads Subscriptions Grants (public TV, Radio, etc.) Plain ole do-gooders (hard to do on scale) Unless I missed something that's about all there is. Even Grant based media uses ads these days (public radio, podcasts), although they are not in-your-face and tracking types. Micro payments, which were the hot subject a decade or two ago, really never took off - but that is a subscription model in any case. It's hard to imagine coming up with anything new after so many millions have thought about this for so long. There are only X number of ways to create income from media..and that is what is being discussed when it comes down to it." 106,59174,2019-09-11T18:11:49.648Z,9821,0,11,10,2,0,0,27.2,58827,anon3203746736,anon2489867874,"I guess like with all of this, it comes down to where any given line gets drawn and who gets to draw it. I recall that years ago there was this US law that disallowed subliminal micro-second message being flashed at you on TV or a movie theater saying things like ""you need Coke"" as an example of the drawing of a line, in this case talking directly to your subconscious for purposes of manipulation. Somewhere along the line that standard (if it ever really existed) disappeared. because what is so different from that and all this data mining about you without your knowledge or express consent?" 107,59182,2019-09-11T19:58:37.623Z,9821,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,52942,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"This is a good interview with author Douglas Rushkoff about his new book, ""Team Human."" He says things we are talking about here and is being discussed in books, articles, etc - and is a big driver of this IoH/NGI project. But Doug is a clear thinking, plain speaking guy, who, like many of us, was a true believer for a long time until we have watched our rather rosy view of the digital future become clouded. This interview adds to our understanding of the problem I think. https://www.vox.com/technology/2019/4/2/18256419/technology-team-human-douglas-rushkoff" 108,59277,2019-09-14T11:58:47.439Z,9821,0,11,10,1,1,0,7.2,59182,anon1608948641,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:107, topic:9821""] This is a good interview with author Douglas Rushkof [/quote] pushed it to my e-reader for later today. Thanks for linking it!" 109,59858,2019-09-25T08:52:43.134Z,9821,1,11,10,1,0,0,57.2,52942,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"This isn't a solution to moving away from the ad-based internet economy, but it surely seems to be a nice niche tool to not having to see those ads (if it at least ensures it can't be detected by the websites): https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-hardware-ad-blocker/10858" 110,59908,2019-09-25T15:37:23.626Z,9821,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,59858,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,"If enough ads got blocked then maybe other business models could emerge. But then, I am someone who has routinely for decades hit the mute butanon2863106368 when the ads come on. I always figure that nobody would want to hear them. But at times when I have done that, some in the room actually objected because they wanted to hear the ads. And one time I was told that it is wrong for me to do that because it is my obligation to listen and watch them in exchange for seeing the content. I can see that argument, but anon2696444391 else does one control his or her immediate environment? Furthermore, cable news was sold to us all as an ad-free service since we have to pay for it. But that isn't anon2696444391 it turned out." 111,63116,2019-11-05T17:43:03.560Z,9821,1,12,11,1,0,0,72.4,52942,anon3005461236,anon3203746736,"I'm not sure if you are following the Edgeryders festival, but I'm hosting an event on the topic of open source many of you should join on the 28:th november in Stockholm. ""Dont leave the future of internet in the hands of the proprietary software"" =) https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881" 112,63331,2019-11-07T14:36:23.433Z,9821,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,63116,anon3379761435,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236 I am not in Stockholm. But this is really great work, thank you so much. It means a lot :slight_smile:" 113,64448,2019-11-18T06:30:15.460Z,9821,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,52942,anon3005461236,anon3203746736,"""Mozilla is no longer fighting for market share of its browser: [it is fighting for the future of the web](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/17/firefox-mozilla-fights-back-against-google-chrome-dominance-privacy-fears),"" writes the Guardian, citing Mozilla Project co-founder Mitchell Baker: *Baker's pitch is that only Mozilla is motivated, first and foremost, to make using the web a pleasurable experience. Google's main priority is to funnel user data into the enormous advertising engine that accounts for most of its revenue. Apple's motivation is to ensure that customers continue to buy a new iPhone every couple of years and don't switch to Android....""* https://m.slashdot.org/story/363540" 114,64546,2019-11-18T16:45:57.612Z,9821,1,9,8,4,0,0,41.8,64448,anon3203746736,anon3005461236,"It could be argued that the greatest social benefit that came from America Online's fairly brief reign over the online world was their acquiring Netscape when it went on the sales block, and then, when it was clear that they were buying the talent more than the software (something they did pretty often actually), releasing the Netscape source code. This became the basis for Mozilla (which had been the name of the netscape mascot)." 115,84433,2020-10-06T10:55:01.791Z,9821,5,9,8,1,0,0,61.8,64546,anon2594087572,anon3203746736,"Hi folks, I'm a digital ethnographer for the NGI Forward team. It' been really interesting to follow everyone's discussion in this thread around advertising and the attention economy as the Internet's business model and anon2696444391 it exacerbates surveillance and information capitalism. Just saw that this year's Mozilla Fellows Harriet Kingaby and Frederike Kaltheunejust published a policy brief on this very topic so thought I'd share: ""[Ad break: The Race to regulate digital advertising and fix online spaces](https://assets.mofoprod.net/network/documents/Ad_Break_for_Europe_FINAL_online.pdf)"" If you want a quick outline, you can check out [summary Twitter thread here](https://twitter.com/F_Kaltheuner/status/1313409790652100611?s=20). Thought I'd share a small bit from the executive summary for the policy nerds in the group: > In this policy brief, we will argue that digital advertising – the business model that underpins most of the internet as we know it today – fails to support or sustain healthy digital spaces that are fit for purpose for the majority of people. The nature of contemporary digital advertising and its practices are at the core of some of the most pressing challenges facing societies today, from widespread and routine invasions of consumer protection and fundamental rights, to the funding of hate and misinformation. As a result, Europe’s chance at forging its own vision for the digital world hanon2945747231s on its ability to regulate and ultimately fix an industry that has become unsustainable, especially as we are moving towards a world of AI and the Internet of Things (IoT) where online and offline environments become increasingly entwined. As it stands anon2696444391ever, Europe lacks an overarching vision on anon2696444391 its digital strategy relates to online advertising. The Digital Services Act, the White Paper on AI, the Democracy Action Plan, the reform of the ePrivacy Direction, and the Commission’s plans for enforcing competition in digital markets all address some aspects of the online advertising ecosystem. But there is a real risk that these separate initiatives will either lead to incoherent rules or that they will fail to address the core harms and risks associated with online advertising as we know it today. If you have a moment to look at this, do these diagnoses and recommendations speak to your experience of navigating targeted advertising?" 116,84489,2020-10-06T17:39:03.051Z,9821,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,84433,anon3203746736,anon2594087572,"Thanks very much for this. Given that the Internet has a strong winner-take-all tendency regardless of pay model, I do wonder if it is the ad model that is the core of the problem. Would there be less surveillance, profiling, trickery and other manipulations if everything were subscription or a direct pay model? One example that comes to mind is the [Habbo Hotel](http://habbo.com) ""chain"" of online game environments where you have an animated avatar stand in for yourself. It is free to use and they make money by selling stuff to you and making the games and social status center around the stuff they sell. But they bombard you with sales pitches. But, do they surveil as much as the giants like Facebook? I'm sure they don't. But then they couldn't afford it." 117,84490,2020-10-06T17:48:22.721Z,9821,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,84489,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Staying on the winner-take-all theme, I would argue that the size of the companies doing the surveilling portrayed in their paper, is as big a factor than any other, perhaps bigger. They have the money to hire the best talent. They can constantly refine every aspect of the service. They can spend the most on lobbying to make regulation as advantageous to them as possible. And they can successfully use tactics to reduce competitors market share. Since their service gets better and their network of cohorts grows, the ""stickiness,"" to use an old term, increases. The tradeoffs improve from the consumer perspective. Part of that of course is nobody really knows the full extent of what is being gathered in any given moment. all they might see is a denial until they turn off their ad blocker. Even then you wouldn't really know what was going on behind the curtain. What to do about it? The EU focuses a lot of privacy and one knowing and controlling their data. But I would put anti-trust into the mix." 118,84492,2020-10-06T18:31:06.628Z,9821,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,84490,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"I'm reading [the paper](https://assets.mofoprod.net/network/documents/Ad_Break_for_Europe_FINAL_online.pdf) now. It is thorough and well written. I recommend reading the paper itself rather than just the Twitter feed, although that has a bunch of good references too. And they do touch on market dominance. My main takeaway from it is anon2696444391 unaccountable thew whole system is. Someone might know enough to be pulling many if not most of the strings, but there is no way to find out. It's been said that we are now in the era of internet regulation, and all of the solutions proposed in this paper are regulatory in nature. I hope that the EC takes these recommendations into account. It seems that regulation and its enforcement is pretty much the only tool the EU has to determine the future of the Internet ad its effect on people. I think that the EC and NGI would most love to have some technical solutions sanon2696444391 up that are European created and incorporate the EU's privacy and data right into the design. But the odds of that are pretty low, so best to stick with regulation. It will take much fortitude to get it done." 119,84541,2020-10-07T14:49:59.318Z,9821,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,84433,anon1753543892,anon2594087572,"@anon1608948641, we know you are anon2373157426 busy these days, but @anon2594087572 from our ethnographic research team has worked through this thread that you started a lot and above you can find here resulting comments and questions. I thought this might be interesting for you to look into and maybe react to :)" 120,84555,2020-10-07T15:31:18.601Z,9821,1,8,7,1,1,0,41.6,84433,anon1608948641,anon2594087572,"[quote=""anon2594087572, post:115, topic:9821""] If you have a moment to look at this, do these diagnoses and recommendations speak to your experience of navigating targeted advertising? [/quote] After a first reading, I must say: Very much so. There is one sentiment in there that I need to comment, courtesy of my dayjob at [polypoly.coop](https://polypoly.coop/de-de/): Your policy brief states that Step 1 should be to [quote] Limit and reduce the overall amount of data in the system [/quote] I think I would want to rephrase that we need to [quote] Limit the amount of data **that gets shared and moved around** in the system. [/quote] *What the heck do I mean with that?* A lot of the data that I generate is not only highly useful for the surveillance capitalism, but also to me personally. My digital assistants get a lot smarter, I can examine my habits and thus have a better life. The important part though is that all this needs to be **my** data, not Googles or Facebooks data. Companies will always have a legitimate interest in using personal data to serve us better or more interesting products. But that doesn't meant that they should keep that data, or use it without our explicit and actually informed consent. That means that the systems need to become a lot more human-friendly, and the infrastructure should support oversight and watchdog organisations right from the ground up." 121,84556,2020-10-07T15:59:40.859Z,9821,1,7,6,6,1,0,51.4,84433,anon1753543892,anon2594087572,"ping @anon3005461236, your view on the comments and questions raised by @anon2594087572 above would also be very interesting :). This is also a good example feedback and questions developed through the SSNA, which is relevant to the conversation we had regarding the opensource teaching resource development inside the plate project, but that is a different discussion, so let's not have it here, but yes, what does your open source mind say to the development of this conversations and topic at this point? [quote=""anon1608948641, post:120, topic:9821""] A lot of the data that I generate is not only highly useful for the surveillance capitalism, but also to me personally. My digital assistants get a lot smarter, I can examine my habits and thus have a better life. The important part though is that all this needs to be **my** data, not Googles or Facebooks data. Companies will always have a legitimate interest in using personal data to serve us better or more interesting products. But that doesn’t meant that they should keep that data, or use it without our explicit and actually informed consent. That means that the systems need to become a lot more human-friendly, and the infrastructure should support oversight and watchdog organisations right from the ground up. [/quote] and also anon2696444391 would you position the open source business models realistically in this context with @anon1608948641 's comment?" 122,84565,2020-10-07T17:34:22.875Z,9821,0,7,6,1,1,0,6.4,84556,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:121, topic:9821""] what does your open source mind say to the development of this conversations and topic at this point? [/quote] OMG. I have spent so much time in this domain and intersection of many philosophies on freedom, legislation, systems and and anon2696444391 our digital world has put it all to the extreme. It's hard to cover that all in a post here. I would rather have a discussion with interested participants such as @anon2594087572 if we are going to have a chance to get even close to the pressing issues that this post entail. In general - we are running in circles in legislation since we fail collectively to address fundamental systematic flaws in our institutions (and in some cases even our constitutional). Some of these fundamental flaws I argue, prevents us currently from talking about, form solid opinions about and ultimately form up reasonable conclusions and legislation about on many of these pressing issues on anon2696444391 ads (and related topics) affects our lives." 123,84566,2020-10-07T17:58:33.625Z,9821,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,84433,anon3203746736,anon2594087572,"Ping @anon1965424313 Seems like NESTA would find this paper useful." 124,85166,2020-10-16T11:48:14.939Z,9821,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,52942,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,"Has anyone else seen this article on the Ad tech economic bubble and its wider implications? "" Hwang’s new book, *Subprime Attention Crisis* , lays out the case that the new ad business is built on a fiction. Microtargeting is far less accurate, and far less persuasive, than it’s made out to be, he says, and yet it remains the foundation of the modern internet: the source of wealth for some of the world’s biggest, most important companies, and the mechanism by which almost every “free” website or app makes money. If that shaky foundation ever were to crumble, there’s no telling anon2696444391 much of the wider economy would go down with it."" Curious what others think about it https://www.wired.com/story/ad-tech-could-be-the-next-internet-bubble/" 125,85219,2020-10-16T15:08:54.729Z,9821,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,85166,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"I forget where right at this moment but just a few days ago I ran past another writer making the same argument that microtargeting is not, and never was, accurate, and is essentially snake oil. To counter that, I also read someplace that most of Facebook's revenue comes not from big advertisers but from anon2373157426 small operations looking mainly in their own geographic regions. I don't know anon2696444391 micro the targeting gets, but ads like ""women who love pets who live in these counties"" do seem to get better results. *So I am told*. This is why, when a bunch of the big companies like Ford threatened to boycott Facebook (and maybe they ewven did boycott), Facebook wasn't all that bothered by it to the point of actually changing their policy." 126,95320,2021-05-25T14:56:36.530Z,9821,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,52942,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"The following is from a newsletter I receive regularly from tech analyst Benedict Evans. It's worth reading if you are interested in this subject because it describes sea changes occurring in this field. "" Apple, Fedex and the cookie apocalypse We’re now a couple of weeks into Apple’s latest iOS privacy move. If you want to track users between apps and the web, or from an ad through the app store to an install, then you need to ask permission and Apple has deliberately framed the question such that almost no-one will say yes. On some reports, CPMs are already down by half. We could spend a lot of time arguing about the rights and wrongs of privacy and Apple’s framing and steering and use of its market dominance, but it’s probably more useful to point out that all Apple has really done is implement the EU and California’s cookie laws - ‘but in apps’. Step up another level, and this reflects a pretty broad shift in attitudes towards privacy in general and the huge inverted pyramid of complexity and nonsense of third party ad tracking in particular. Chrome and Safari are turning third party cookies off anyway. The cookie apocalypse is upon us and the tracking model of the last 25 years is going away. What happens next? No-one in advertising anon2373157426 knows. There are dozens of different projects for new ‘private’ ways to track users across different sites with different identity or logged-in models, but the most interesting remains Google’s FLoC, in which the *browser* analyses your behaviour and puts you into (mostly) anonymous, interest-based cohorts. The publisher can ask for a cohort and sanon2696444391 you ads, but your actual activity never leaves your device. Apple does more or less the same thing on iOS in its News and Stocks apps, except that Apple also serves the ads and displays the content, so the underlying publishers see nothing at all (except a wire transfer). I think it’s very likely that Apple is looking at offering this in third-party apps and in Safari as well. So, Apple and Google want to move the tracking from the server to the client, and to one company with one point for the user to control instead of disaggregation across hundreds of publishers and ad-tech companies. There’s a bunch of reasons why this might not work, not least that no-one except Google and Apple want Google and Apple to have that much control over publishing and advertising. But it’s also worth stepping up another level again, and asking what advertisers are trying to do, anyway. People say ‘privacy’ so often that one can lose sight of the fact that advertisers don’t care who you are - they just want to sanon2696444391 ads to people that might be interested in them, and not to sanon2696444391 ads to people who won’t be interested. They don’t want to ‘violate your privacy’ - they want to sanon2696444391 diaper ads to parents, car ads to people who want a car and watch ads to rich people. Before the internet, that meant car ads in car magazines and watch ads in the Economist. Ads were based on context, and on inferring the audience from the context. The internet gave advertisers the opposite axis - it let them sanon2696444391 ads based on the reader instead of the page. One side-effect of this was relocation of value - you can target an Economist reader a week later on a different website. If FLoC works, you can still do that. But the counter-case is that the value gets re-concentrated in the places with the highest value context, rather than following the high-value readers around the web. It also gets re-concentrated in places with first party data. We will not be able to track you across different web sites, but we can still track you inside the same website, if it has lots of content and you spend lots of time there - Instagram or Facebook, but also the New York Times or the Guardian. The strong get stronger, which of course is the great tech policy trade-off - privacy versus competition. The publisher, meanwhile cares about neither the ads nor your web browsing history, but about the money, and the harder the ad business has become, the more that publishers have shifted emphasis to pay walls, memberships and commerce. When those publishers are in the news business, this is another trade-off - pay walls conflict with reach and public purpose, and again they tend to work best for the strongest. But way beyond news, if ATT/IDFA really does halve the CPMs, a lot more apps might have to change their business models. How many apps are funded by ads that won’t work so well now, and anon2696444391 many were using ads as the best way to acquire users and will have to find a new way to do that? Now, step up one more level again: why were brands buying ads anyway? Well, to reach a consumer, and anon2696444391 else are they doing that? The joke in D2C for a while now has been that ‘rent is the new CAC’. Should you spend your acquisition budget on ad networks, or Instagram… or on same-day shipping, a pop-up shop in the right part of Manhattan or London, or 100 shops, or free returns? Before the internet you couldn’t choose between shops or ads, but now that’s all the same algebra - anon2696444391 do you reach and serve a customer? If the cookie apocalypse resets the numbers for display, that money can go to search, but it can also go to Fedex or landlords. Which lever do you pull? The entire ad privacy fight is one moving part in a debate about anon2696444391 you reach your customers and anon2696444391 you spend a total of, perhaps, $7-800bn in the USA alone each year.""" 127,99040,2021-08-31T16:00:30.221Z,9821,0,2,1,1,0,0,5.4,52942,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"A thought-provoking column that points out the complexity finding balance between privacy and commerce/advertising. He brings up interesting aspects I had not considered such as preventing an advertiser from looking at activity on other sites in order to target more closely, tends to favor larger sites. Evans is very much a capitalist, but he does ask the probing questions that I hope the big shots at NGI look at too. Otherwise the trap is policy that is too broad a brush or blunt an instrument. "" Privacy is coming to the internet and cookies are going away. This is long overdue - but we don’t know what happens next, we don’t have much consensus on what online privacy actually means, and most of what’s on the table conflicts fundamentally with competition."" https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2021/8/27/understanding-privacy?utm_source=Benedict%27s+Newsletter&utm_campaign=52c0429894-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_8_22_2021_23_23_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4999ca107f-52c0429894-70493557" 1,97554,2021-06-24T10:30:50.833Z,15979,0,30,29,1001,0,0,5046.0,97554,anon3379761435,anon3379761435," *(reposted from [my personal blog](http://www.cottica.net/2021/06/23/sociopathic-innovation-anon2696444391-we-are-investing-most-in-the-most-evil-technologies-long/))* ### TL;dr Artificial intelligence and the blockchain are the two main technological hypes of the past fifteen years. Both were hailed as technologies with the potential to solve many problems and change the world, for the better. It now looks like their impact is overwhelmingly negative. Though they could be used for the common good, it turns out they are not very good at that. They are better, far better, at harming humans than at helping them. They encode dystopian, sociopathic world views; and tend to attract developers, investors and entrepreneurs that share those world views. So, once deployed, they tend to bring the world closer to them. They are sociopathic tech. This is disturbing, because mostly everyone fell for them: investors, developers, entrepreneurs, academics, government officials. I call for a re-examination of the achievements of these technologies and the impact they are having on our life and our societies. I would like to see support to innovation systems depend on anon2696444391 new technologies improve the well-being of humans and of the planet, and only on that. In what follows, I review some of the facts as a discussion starter. ### Of anon2696444391 Artificial Intelligence excels at everything, except solving problems that matter I recently had the opportunity to be exposed to the work of [Juan Mateos-Garcia](https://juan-mateos.github.io/), a leading data scientist. Juan and his team had been looking at a large dataset of science papers published on the topic of Artificial Intelligence (AI). [Their results](https://nesta-slides.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/20210414_bai.pdf) look like this: 1. AI has been undergoing a revolution since about 2012, when deep learning started to systematically outperform established techniques. 2. Scientific production (papers) is booming. AI is shaping to be a general-purpose technology, like electricity or computing itself. 3. Industry interest is evident. Many top scientists have been recruited from academia into industry. Venture capitalists have moved to invest in AI startups. Major governments are underwriting large public investments. There are talks of a ""AI arms race"" between China, the USA and the EU. 4. AI is dominated by a small number of organisations and geographic clusters. Diversity of its workforce has stagnated. 5. AI has had no impact on the effort to beat back the COVID-19 pandemic. In fact, all other things being equal, a paper on COVID is more likely to be cited by other papers if it is not about AI. This final point gave me pause. Something was off. Why would AI not make a valid contribution to fighting the COVID plague? The conditions all seemed to be in place: there was, and still is, plenty of funding for research on COVID. There is a large, inelastic demand for the applications of that research, like vaccines. There is plenty of training data being generated by health care institutions the world over. And, if AI is a general purpose technology, it should apply to any problem, including COVID. The most exciting technology of the moment someanon2696444391 failed to contribute to solving the most pressing problem of the moment. Why is that? I can imagine a world where AI is deployed to help in the fight against a pandemic. Wen would use it to engineer a more targeted response to the risks of contagion. Granular risk scores could be associated to individual people and different situations, allowing society to protect the most vulnerable people from the riskiest situations, while leaving low-risk individuals in low-risk contexts free to get on with their lives. Sounds good, but that world is not the one we live in. In our world, AI-powered, individually customized COVID restrictions would run into non-tractable problems. First, the algos would seize the high correlation between different socio-demographic variables, and decide that poor people, people of color and (in America) trumpists are more prone to the contagion, and should stay at home more than white, affluent liberals. Discriminated groups would react fighting back, challenging the algos as biased, starting litigation and inviting to civil disobedience, as is happening [time](https://www.propublica.org/article/anon2696444391-we-analyzed-the-compas-recidivism-algorithm) and [time again](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hi-i-m-ananon2863106368-ekker-and-i-won-the-first-case-in-the-eu-against-government-use-of-an-algorithmic-decision-making-system-ama/14766?u=anon3379761435). Even if there was no conflict and everybody trusted the algos, it is not clear anon2696444391 we would use effectively the predictions they make for us. First of all, there is the cognitive challenge of understanding the predictions. You could tell someone something like this: ""the risk of catching COVID on public transport for someone with your demographic profile went up 20% today, avoid the bus if you can"". But that is unlikely to work, because * Most people [do not understand risk.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_perception#Heuristics_and_biases) For example, they are more scared of terrorist attacks than they are of car crashes, though the latter are far more frequent (hence more dangerous) than the former. * AI is Bayesian statistics, and as such it makes prediction not on you, but on somebody who is like you in a quantifiable way. It leaves out everything that makes you unique, putting it in the error term. For example, imagine you are a 45-year old living in the Netherlands who is also an ultra-marathoner. The algo computing your risk factor processes your age and the country you live in, because it has thick enough data in those dimensions. Your ultramarathons stay in the error term, because there are not enough people doing ultramarathons for that activity to be tracked in its own variable. And yet, when looking at the overall resilience of your organism, this is clearly an important information. Given this situation, I suspect most people would end up following their own belief system rather than the algo's recommendations. People who fancy themselves strong and resilient might say ""yes, this gizmo is predicting high risk, but it is not talking about me, I am healthier and stronger than most!"". Or, vice versa, ""yes, a low risk is predicted for outdoor mingling, but with my history of allergies I still don't feel safe"". This is de facto happening right now with anon2696444391 people process scientific findings about COVID-19. Some people [prefer to trust their own immune systems over the pharma-punditry complex.](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/the-people-who-wont-get-the-vaccine/618765/) Others [made COVID restrictions into some kind of weird religion](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/05/liberals-covid-19-science-denial-lockdown/618780/), following them ""above and beyond"" even when science is calling for their relaxations. Even if a good AI-powered risk prediction system were in place , many humans are way too irrational to take full advantage of it. They prefer simple rules, applicable to all: ""1.5 meters"", ""wash your hands"" and such. The promise of AI, providing personalized recommendation to each and every one of us, clashes with the human need for stability and security. In conclusion, AI had no grip on COVID, and is unlikely to have any grip on any similar high-stakes problem. So, what _is_ AI good for? We can start with the applications already being developed: * Boosting consumerism: recommendation algorithms, targeted advertising. This has substantial socially detrimental spillovers. Algos maximizing engagement on social media [are known](https://arxiv.org/abs/1908.08313) to push their users towards [ever more extreme, radicalizing content](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/08/technology/youtube-radical.html). * Surveillance: facial recognition, predictive policing, remote invigilation of children ([with notoriously racist algorithms](https://pluralistic.net/2021/04/22/ihor-kolomoisky/#copyfraud)), [bossware](https://pluralistic.net/2021/02/24/gwb-rumsfeld-monsters/#bossware). * Machine translation. * Deepfakes - whose main applications, [according to Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepfake), include ""blackmail"", ""pornography"", ""politics"" and ""sockpuppets"". **With the exception of machine translation, these applications are all detrimental to human well-being**, for world-eating values of ""detrimental"". We are seeing yet another example of [Kranzberg's First Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melvin_Kranzberg#Kranzberg's_laws_of_technology) in action: AI is not good, nor is it evil, nor is it neutral. It could be used for good, though I am unconvinced it would work very well: but it is when you use it for evil, dehumanizing purposes that it really shines. That such a potentially toxic technology is attracting so much attention, public funding and private investment is a spectacular societal and policy failure. And that brings me to the blockchain. ### Of the blockchain and its discontents The blockchain, as by now everyone had to learn, is the name of a family of protocols that allow data storage not in a single repository, but in many. Using cryptography, the different computers who adhere to the same protocol validate each other's copy of the database. This prevents a ""rogue"" participant from altering the records, as the alteration would only be present in a single computer and not be validated by the others. This system was first proposed to solve a problem called [double spending](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-spending) when no trusted, centralized authority is present. That was 2008. In these 13 years, blockchain solutions have been proposed for many, many problems. To my knowledge, none worked, or at least none worked any better than competing solutions that used a more conventional database architecture. This makes sense, because [blockchains are self-contained systems](https://unchained-capital.com/blog/bitcoin-not-blockchain/). They use cryptography to certify that in-database operations, but they cannot certify anything that exists outside the database. Any system based on a blockchain relies on external sources of information, known as ""oracles"". For example, if you were to build an identity system based on the blockchain, you would have to start by associating your name, date of birth etc. to a long string of digits. Once stored on the blockchain, the association is preserved, but some external ""oracle"" has to certify it before it gets stored. In the absence of a credible external certification, the system could work technically, but it would produce no impact. I could create my own identity system, but no one would use it, because I am not trustable enough when I issue a digital ID to your name. There are entities with the trustability to start such a system, for example major governments. But, because they are trustable, they do not need the blockchain at all. I have lost count of technologists who told me: > Any technology which is not an (alleged) currency and which incorporates blockchain anyway would always work better without it. ([source](https://drewdevault.com/2021/04/26/Cryptocurrency-is-a-disaster.html)) But the blockchain is not just another clever technical solution in search of a problem to solve. I argue it is a major source of problems in itself. Consider this: * The distribution of Bitcoins is extremely unequal, with a Gini coefficient [estimated at 0.95 in 2018](https://medium.com/@anon * Blockchains use a lot of power. Every update anywhere in the system needs to be validated by network consensus, which includes a lot of computers exchanging data. Bitcoin alone consumes about 150 Terawatt per hour, more than Argentina. Providing computer power to the Bitcoin network is rewarded in Bitcoins, through a process known as ""mining"": this provides the incentive to underwrite all this computation. In bid to make what they see as easy money, Bitcoin miners have resorted to [malware that infects people's computers and gets them to compute SHA-256](https://drewdevault.com/2021/04/26/Cryptocurrency-is-a-disaster.html) , incorporated into the builds of open source software projects; [resurrected mothballed power stations](https://decrypt.co/74168/bitcoin-mining-firm-powered-waste-coal-raises-105-million?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=auto) that burn super-dirty waste coal; [installed mining operations in Iranian mosques](https://twitter.com/Rmahdavii/status/1143766769783328769) (which get electricity for free) and engaged in [plain stealing](https://www.engadget.com/police-bitcoin-mining-weed-farm-114707991.html?src=rss_b2c&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly90LmNvLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAA6KkaN9U975CjQNULyB7dVfp43rcNbO2comHhPviSD5u4J_FsJkV8lZoRf-96aeZIDZtbo1fW6QkcLJF0XR2aRpjpn3v8Pr5eoh4hRmMNb0D2TzBX1io9-fO65TiCyu3QBp4TRZKt4r2di2v9GUSpiYT-W0rOltm5TyoX3GQgdf). Their carbon footprint is enormous: one Bitcoin transaction generates the same amount of CO2 as 706,605 swipes of a Visa credit card. Some blockchains have less computationally expensive systems of verifications, but they are still more energy- and CO2-intensive than traditional databases. * Fraud – especially to the detriment of less experienced investors – is [rampant in crypto](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/699bef70-d064-11eb-9bfa-a3bc386e6928?shareToken=40796e67b90d0e374db37b22560d1a1c). * Crypto has provided a monetization channel for ransomware attacks. Ransoms are demanded and paid in Bitcoin, untraceable by Interpol. Some observers go so far as to [claim that the price of Bitcoin is tied to the volume of ransomware attacks](https://pcihipaa.com/the-rise-of-bitcoin-and-ransomware-attacks-in-healthcare/). Hospitals and other health care institutions are among the main targets of these attacks: not only do they have to pay money, but their IT systems shut down, threatening the lives of patients. * In 2021, tech companies that used to donate CPU power to legitimate projects have had to stop doing so, citing the constant abuse from crypto miners. It is worth quoting the words of Drew DeVault: > Cryptocurrency has invented an entirely new category of internet abuse. CI services like mine are not alone in this struggle: JavaScript miners, botnets, and all kinds of other illicit cycles are being spent solving pointless math problems to make money for bad actors. \[...\] Someone found a way of monetizing stolen CPU cycles directly, so everyone who offered free CPU cycles for legitimate use-cases is now unable to provide those services. If not for cryptocurrency, these services would still be available. ([source](https://drewdevault.com/2021/04/26/Cryptocurrency-is-a-disaster.html)) In return for this list of societal bads, so far, all the blockchain has to offer is a plethora of speculative financial assets: a casino. Which is _also_ a societal bad, if you, like top innovation economist [Mariana Mazzucato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Mazzucato), believe that the economy is overfinancialized, and policies should be put in place to roll financialization _way_ back. **The blockchain is, overall, a net societal bad: it consumes resources to deliver a casino**. Humanity would be better off without it. The picture gets even grimmer when you consider the opportunity costs: blockchain startups [have gobbled an estimated 22 billion USD](https://www.statista.com/statistics/621207/worldwide-blockchain-startup-financing-history/) in venture capital funding from 2016 to 2021, very likely matched by various forms of government support, and that money could have it been used in more benign ways. So, what's going on here? Kranzberg's First Law, yet again. The original group of developers that rallied around Satoshi's Nakamoto White Paper had a libertarian ideology: they dreamed of a trustless society, where contact is reduced to a minimum and anonymised, and were obsessed with property rights. So, they built a technology that encodes those values, which in turn attracted more people than believe in those values. Code is law, they said. If someone _can_ technically do something, that something _is allowed_, even moral, under some kind of tech version of social Darwinism. When the DAO was hacked in 2016, exploiting vulnerabilities in the Ethereum blockchain, the perpetrator _bragged_ about it: if I stole your money, it's your own fault, because code is law. I am just smarter than you, and I deserve to walk away with your money. Trustless societies do exist – the mob is one of them. But they are not a good place to live. Economists and social scientists think of trust as social capital, and seek ways to build it up, via accountability and transparency. Again, the blockchain could conceivably be used for something good, but in practice almost all of its uses contribute to making the world a better place, while making money for the top 0.1% of crypto holders. This is because the tech itself embodied evil values, and because the social coalition behind it upholds these values. Don't take it from me, take it from open source developer Drew DeVault: > Cryptocurrency is one of the worst inventions of the 21st century. I am ashamed to share an industry with this exploitative grift. It has failed to be a useful currency, invented a new class of internet abuse, further enriched the rich, wasted staggering amounts of electricity, hastened climate change, ruined hundreds of otherwise promising projects, provided a climate for hundreds of scams to flourish, created shortages and price hikes for consumer hardware, and injected perverse incentives into technology everywhere. ([source](https://drewdevault.com/2021/04/26/Cryptocurrency-is-a-disaster.html)) Or writer and designer Rachel Hawley: > NFTs seem like an on-the-nose invention of an anticapitalist morality play: a technology that delivers exponential gains to those already at the top by convincing everyone to collectively imagine that free, widely distributed artwork is actually a scarce commodity, all while destroying the _actual_ scarce resources of our planet. ([source](https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/sorry-but-nfts-arent-designs-democratizing-savior/)) Or economist Nouriel Roubini, testifying to the U.S. Senate: > Until now, Bitcoin’s only real use has been to facilitate illegal activities such as drug transactions, tax evasion, avoidance of capital controls, or money laundering. ([source](https://www.banking.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Roubini%20Testimony%2010-11-18.pdf)) ### Of anon2696444391 and why we are bad at supporting the right innovation **Why are the two most hyped technical innovation of the past 20 years, the blockchain and artificial intelligence, _diminishing_ human well-being instead of enhancing it?** Why are we investing in things that make our problems worse, when the world i sfacing environmental collapse? My working hypothesis is that the financial world will put money into anything that promises returns, with anon2488317424 humanitarian concerns. They lead the dance; and governments the world over have been captured into supporting anything that promises GDP growth. If I am right, it is important to decouple support to innovations from their growth implications, and throw our institutional support behind technologies that uphold human well-being over capital growth. [Jason Hickel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Hickel) has some interesting thoughts in his book _Less is More_, and Mazzucato has forcefully made the point across the arc of her work. Time will tell; and I am confident that better minds than mine will cast more light onto the matter. But this question can no longer wait, and if you are working in one of these two tech ecosystems, you may want to ask your employer, and yourself, some hard questions. ### Update Thanks to all the fine folks that reacted to this piece, and gave me useful suggestions. Many people pointed out counterexamples (I owe [this particularly nice one](https://news.mit.edu/2021/behind-covid-19-vaccine-development-0518) to Raffaele Miniaci). But of course, it is not a problem of finding counterexamples, but to assess the overall net impact of this particular bit of technological development on society. My answer may be wrong, but I am fairly confident that the *question* is right. Another objection comes from @anon > Machines able to behave reasonably in a wide range of circumstances. Depending on anon2696444391 you interpret ""reasonably"" and ""wide"", this indeed captures everything from deep learning for facial recognition to the individually trained spam filter in my personal install of Thunderbird. The reason for this choice is probably that it enables a statistical test for structural change: in 2012 everything changed, more or less at the same time as [an influential paper by Krizhewsky et. al.](https://proceedings.neurips.cc/paper/4824-imagenet-classification-with-deep-convolutional-neural-networks.pdf) was published. Output of AI paper went *way* up. I am looking for a socio-economic definition, not a technological one. These technologies each catalyzed a ""scene"" of researchers, companies, investors, governments etc. What values and visions do these scenes embed? What do they want? The libertarian streak of the blockchain gang is clear. With AI, this is less obvious because AI has a much longer history, and you cannot define it technologically. I guess when I am talking about ""AI"" in this article, I refer to its post-2012 scene, with some fuzziness but still anon2373157426 identifiable. This excludes the spam filter on my e-mail client, and should take care of Yudha's objection. It also raises concern, for the surveillance-authoritarian streak that this scene has." 3,97556,2021-06-24T11:45:57.779Z,15979,0,21,20,1,0,0,9.2,1,anon3379761435,anon930036515,"Hi @anon930036515, better here... @anon2559300400 can more easily use it for her research." 4,97564,2021-06-24T13:04:17.576Z,15979,1,22,21,3,0,0,69.4,97554,anon930036515,anon3379761435,"Thank you @anon3379761435! Strong, clear, well-argued – I can't exactly say whether it is convincing to others, because my starting point is similar to yours, but I *hope* it is convincing enough to cause some significant hesitation and disinvestment, or divestment? I comment partly from PhD work in machine learning over 30 years ago. Right back then, the late Donald Michie was clearly pointing out that pure neural-net-based AI would never satisfy the human reasoning requirements that we sometimes have to fall back on. He favoured a rule induction approach, which is what I followed; and I looked at rule induction from the perspective of trying to figure out what rules humans themselves were unconsciously using, when they performed complex tasks fluently. I still believe that this approach would be very valuable to follow up, and would love to see evidence of it. Currently I remain disappointed. I do agree that machine translation – and indeed speech recognition – are some of the very few beneficial applications of the current deep AI approaches. In terms of blockchain-related issues, I continue to be impressed by anon2696444391 the variant ideology and values of [Holochain](https://holochain.org/) has taken root in the communities I mix with, as something that is much better in line. Personally I can see some very positive uses for the right kind of distributed ledger technology, perhaps including currencies much better designed than Bitcoin (which I also see as a hugely bad influence). It does come down to the societal context as well, doesn't it? In a capitalist market-dominated economy, anything that has extractive potential will be available, for a price. What are the most effective leverage points to move us away from that mindset?" 5,97571,2021-06-24T17:28:02.207Z,15979,0,20,19,1,0,0,39.0,97554,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"Brilliant Alberto, and right on. So, is this anon2696444391 you spend your vacation time?" 6,97572,2021-06-24T17:28:40.319Z,15979,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,97564,anon3203746736,anon930036515,Is Holochain not so energy intensive? 7,97573,2021-06-24T18:27:58.253Z,15979,1,20,19,1,0,0,29.0,97572,anon930036515,anon3203746736,"Indeed Holochain isn't so energy intensive. The main thing, as I understand, is that Holo relies on consistency across a set of servers, not consistency across servers globally. But I guess others may be able to explain more. See e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/holochain/comments/mftp7a/visa_bitcoin_ethereum_and_holochain_energy/ and https://blog.holochain.org/satoshi-nakamoto-and-the-fate-of-our-planet-2/" 8,97574,2021-06-24T20:49:58.783Z,15979,0,21,20,2,1,0,14.2,97573,anon3379761435,anon930036515,"[quote=""anon930036515, post:7, topic:15979""] Indeed Holochain isn’t so energy intensive [/quote] Yes, I stayed out of the proof-of-work vs. proof-of-stake debate. Reason: with both, we have at least *some* energy costs over a centralized database architecture. Until we see substantial benefits, we have no reason to bear any cost at all." 9,97605,2021-06-26T19:39:22.547Z,15979,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,97554,anon995479489,anon3379761435,"@anon3379761435 I agree completely that AI and blockchain are currently mostly having negative effects. I also believe that these are tools which have a possibility for supporting a regenerative future and that it is all of our responsibility to demand that tools are used to support a regenerative future. I have some actionable and highly viable ways to use these tools to catalyze a Regenassaince. According to the father of the browser, the web has a BIG missing feature, which makes the web flat and static. This has enabled the web to be captured by the Internet Platforms which see people and information as commodities, essentially using AI to monetize online humanity. I am working on the Overweb, a trust layer over the webpage that enables people to be visible and layers knowledge on webpages. The Overweb can catalyze a shift from an Attention economy that harms people to a Knowledge economy that neutralizes misinformation, enables safe digital nations, and offers creators a fair value exchange. https://theoverweb.com https://bridgit.io" 10,97892,2021-07-07T08:35:22.196Z,15979,0,11,10,2,1,0,12.2,97605,anon3379761435,anon995479489,"[quote=""anon995479489, post:9, topic:15979""] I have some actionable and highly viable ways to use these tools to catalyze a Regenassaince. [/quote] Good on you! Look, I don't claim to be able to make predictions (""especially about the future"" :slight_smile:) Thing is: when ideas are young, they *might* be highly beneficial. It is impossible to predict the full chain of knock-on effects. So you keep up hopes: since we are talking Bayesian statistics, you have a prior that the effects are positive. But when they start to get mature, then you have a duty to update. How did it go? And if it went badly, can we still claim that it will get better in the future without making the same mistake that we made the first time around, failing to predict, say, that Bitcoin would create a business model for ransomware? ""This time is different"" is normally a weak argument. If you want to make it, better have solid reasons behind it." 1,67997,2019-12-29T18:48:59.642Z,12273,0,21,20,12,0,0,126.2,67997,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Hello! This is our first experimental chat thread! Please chat away what you want in general, share funny ideas or links and also what you think would be needed in a chat for the NGI Platform! (we had some discussion here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/chat-rooms-after-events/11997 but want to start by trying it out in this form :))" 2,67999,2019-12-29T19:02:43.756Z,12273,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,67997,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 3,68015,2019-12-30T18:28:39.659Z,12273,0,19,18,1,0,0,23.8,67997,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"One positive development out here in California is that new state privacy laws go into effect on weds that bring California up close to the GDPR, which is far in advance of the US federal or any other state governments. The same principle here applies as the GDPR: you own your data and must give permission or it is essentially theft. Many AI outfits and driverless car and other car companies are freaking out about it because they won't be able to have as much data available to make their decisions. As if that is their right..it is the age-old ""opt out or in"" question. I say always go with opt in." 4,68020,2019-12-31T08:30:33.232Z,12273,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,67997,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,Good morning everyone. Howare you going into the next year? 5,68024,2019-12-31T12:34:43.881Z,12273,0,17,16,1,0,0,53.4,68020,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"With the kids " 6,68033,2020-01-01T02:31:13.118Z,12273,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,67997,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,Happy new year! With cats and friends :). Virtually and in person 7,68588,2020-01-10T21:03:34.293Z,12273,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,67997,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"Here is a [link](https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/27/europe-gdpr-technology-regulation-089605?cid=apn) to a [Politico story](https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/27/europe-gdpr-technology-regulation-089605?cid=apn) describing what a hard time regulators are having enforcing the GDPR. It seems that complaints get made and lawsuits get filed, but nothing seems to happen much after that.." 8,68589,2020-01-10T21:05:30.808Z,12273,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,68588,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Sample quote, ""After nearly one and a half years we must concede that we have a huge problem with the enforcement of cross border processing especially by globally acting companies,"" a spokesperson for the authority, one of 16 in Germany, told POLITICO, referring to cases that concern web users in more than one country. “It is absolutely unsatisfactory to see that the biggest alleged data protection violations of the last 15 months with millions of individuals [concerned] are far away from being sanctioned.""" 9,69529,2020-01-28T16:50:42.588Z,12273,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,67997,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,so this does not seem to work....what does a chat need to work? 10,69535,2020-01-28T19:27:57.643Z,12273,1,12,11,1,0,0,57.4,69529,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"Interest and a sense that there is some energy there. I think it is up to us to keep trying to kickstart it.. By the way, and for those who missed it, I very much enjoyed our open source discussion on Zoom today with @anon3005461236 @anon2197402769 and @anon2868057530." 11,69536,2020-01-28T19:28:39.292Z,12273,0,12,11,1,0,0,37.4,69535,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,This was a discussion about open source and Erik's theme of finding ways to teach teachers in schools about the value of open source. Not as simple as it might sound! 12,95307,2021-05-25T08:35:46.249Z,12273,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,67997,anon2725583816,anon1753543892,"I participated in the NGI forum 2021 where I heard more then once the message: don't preach, but practice. I might be biased here, as this is exactly what we do at fairkom.eu: provide solutions and act as a reliable service provider on the market. We do have so many nice open source projects, but potential customers don't find them and they also require customizations, FAQs, a help desk and much more to create a god user experience. We try to fill the gap by offering them re-branded to a broader audience at fairapps.net - and those who need more capacity or storage buy a package. Or we install a custom solution on promise and connect it with their infrastructure (ActiveDirectory etc). Just curious, if others share the opinion that there is a market gap: many would like to use open source, but it is hard to find reliable service providers. Or why have you chosen Zoom as a video conferencing tool for the NGI forum event, if a well maintained BigBlueButanon2863106368 server could have served as the ideal platform? We run large events with it for high profile customers and it just works - but we have also invested a lot of time and resources to make a difference in the user and service experience." 13,95319,2021-05-25T14:49:12.375Z,12273,0,5,4,2,0,0,11.0,95307,anon3203746736,anon2725583816,"This, I think if I am reading you correctly, is similar to the RedHat Linux model - the OS is free. You pay them for support (""customizations, FAQs, a help desk and much more to create a good user experience"")." 1,94563,2021-04-27T16:44:27.109Z,15740,1,13,12,5,0,0,107.6,94563,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Hat tip to @anon > [with this protocol] Internet traffic is redirected to whichever server has most sunshine at the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFCdQWRlmSU" 2,94761,2021-05-04T17:33:25.505Z,15740,0,8,7,2,0,0,11.6,94563,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,The EU should pay attention to this kind of thing if it is not already. 3,94932,2021-05-11T04:27:42.070Z,15740,1,7,6,1,1,0,41.4,94563,anon794158989,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:15740""] [with this protocol] Internet traffic is redirected to whichever server has most sunshine at the time. [/quote] This is also a sneaky way to position computer science closer to a self-adapting system. Alan Kay has talked a lot about this - what we can learn from biology. By working with our natural environment (instead of merely exploiting it), engineers are forced to think in new ways. I love this." 4,94934,2021-05-11T07:22:33.878Z,15740,2,6,5,2,1,0,36.2,94932,anon659222949,anon794158989,"[quote=""anon794158989, post:3, topic:15740""] This is also a sneaky way to position computer science closer to a self-adapting system. [/quote] Speaking of that, I recently got recommended this strange and fascinating project by @anon1013661113 https://youtu.be/jreRFxN6wuM A hardware project that starts with a rejection of deterministic computing. > **The T2 Tile project is an attempt to build the world's first indefinitely scalable computational stack.** First, we suspend the idea that we must be bound to an architecture based on correct and efficient deterministic hardware and software. Instead, much like the physical world around us, we look to robustness as a foundational requirement, building living systems as vessels for digital computation that is firstly robust, then as correct as possible, and finally, as efficient as necessary." 5,94935,2021-05-11T08:05:03.379Z,15740,1,5,4,1,0,0,56.0,94934,anon1013661113,anon659222949,"Woah!! Tega Brain is :fire: !!!! Such a cool project! There is an ongoing project right now to create a solar powered mesh network in indigenous lands in Brazil, started by a SSB friend. Here's the thread reference: `%hMC/Ix/mnDvk0KYGcvXGo/Kt8UuegWYz6vB91RyhIKQ=.sha256` I think computation, as well as Science and other cultural practices of ""modern"" societies, has this apparent symbiotic relationship with exploitation and detachment from nature. I'm always so excited to see projects that blur this line between ""us"" and ""nature"" and even more when it challenges this relationship between technology and control. From Dave Ackley I learned to ask myself not if this ""new kind of technology"" will be equivalent but anon2696444391 is it going to be different? What kind of computation can be done? How would this change the way I think about programming? Why would I expect an apple tree to grow oranges? Why would I think programming a computer is different from talking with a friend? :laughing:" 6,94939,2021-05-11T12:17:11.026Z,15740,0,4,3,1,1,0,5.8,94935,anon3379761435,anon1013661113,"[quote=""anon1013661113, post:5, topic:15740""] From Dave Ackley I learned to ask myself not if this “new kind of technology” will be equivalent but anon2696444391 is it going to be different? [/quote] This is a very fresh point of view, @anon1013661113. I am checking out the SSB thread... fascinating. > I’m thinking on low bandwidth as an advantage in such situations. That’s because we really don’t want to affect peoples ways of lives with high-bandwidth communication and mobile devices. If they really need it, sure, let’s think of a very expensive project that uses 5.8Ghz, big solar setups and gives people smartphones (I personally think that would be a huge mistake). But until then, here’s this cheap, low-bandwidth solution that can let the village communicate at 1kbs and go on with it’s traditions, which is what HF gives as well anyways. That’s the idea. And, as the thread progresses and Leandro gets on with prototyping the mesh net in Kraho territory, we see anon2696444391 our tech components all reinforce each other, and the worldview behind their development: > The first wall I hit was the lack of a mobile version. It was hard to find a computer where I could present it. At the capital, Pedra Branca, they had two Macbooks which were donated to the school. We installed Āhau and started building the village’s Whakapapa record. But the app suddenly crashed, and when opened again all the data we had previously added were gone 🤕 That made them lose interest almost instantly (used v0.8.0 installers). > > Me and [@anon490146484](@anon It's also very instructive anon2696444391 the project immediately goes from the tech itself to creating the social and economic arrangement that can sustain it: > Open Collective has been revolution for #opensource projects and #mutualaid groups, enabling distributed and transparent management of organizations. [...] So we first setup the [Kàjre OC](https://opencollective.com/kajre), which is an association representing Pedra Branca, or the capital, as it’s the largest village. They are already very organized, specially the women around producing and commercializing crafts. So it’ll be a good first experiment which can expand to other villages. Four months on, the Kàjre OC web page seems pretty quiet. This is really hard work, almost superhuman if you are one hacker, anon2696444391ever capable, and a few friends and supporters." 7,95048,2021-05-15T22:18:43.864Z,15740,1,4,3,1,1,0,10.8,94934,anon794158989,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:4, topic:15740""] Speaking of that, I recently got recommended this strange and fascinating project by @anon1013661113 [https://youtu.be/jreRFxN6wuM ](https://youtu.be/jreRFxN6wuM) [/quote] I've only watched the video, so my questions may be ignorant. I certainly thing the long term goals of building something that is self-healing or self-reproducing as something worth pursuing. I'm a bit confused on the first step. The tiles sound something akin to anon2071999133ny Hillis' Connection Machine. Where the main challenge was anon2696444391 to wire up these individual parts. This is a well-explored problem with implementations back to the 1980s. I'm wondering anon2696444391 tiles are different? The one thing that intrigued me is that the tiles don't have an address or a number. Again, this is much like the Connection Machine. It stands in contrast to something like Smalltalk - that are more like cells that talk to each other. Cells are at least as distinct as snowflakes. IPFS has taken this an described individual nodes by their content address. Essentially the shape of the data. This is more ""organic"" and the assumption of tiles is sort of the exact opposite of this. Why this approach? My interest is mostly piqued because the project's philosophy - working in concert with nature rather than as an exploiter." 8,95049,2021-05-15T22:31:29.598Z,15740,1,4,3,1,1,0,25.8,95048,anon659222949,anon794158989,"[quote=""anon794158989, post:7, topic:15740""] in contrast to something like Smalltalk - that are more like cells that talk to each other. [/quote] Aren't cells really better described as something like the tiles? Defined only by their relation to surrounding tiles. I like to think of cells as elements in a sort of anon327163970 matrix. When an organism starts out, it is a single cell which then divides into two identical cells and so forth. These cells start differentiating due to anon2696444391 they are wired to respond to a particular gradient of signalling molecules from the cells around them - the cells in the middle of the matrix getting a different gradient than those at the edges. They can anon2696444391ever only respond to the signals they get from the cells around them and have no actual knowledge of their ""address"" in the system. Those surrounding cells produce signals in particular proportions which are in turn a response to signals from the cells around them. This is a pretty cool demo I found on the T2 Tile channel: https://youtu.be/1KJ0KBQrODY" 9,95252,2021-05-22T02:38:13.588Z,15740,0,4,3,1,1,0,20.8,95049,anon794158989,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:8, topic:15740""] Aren’t cells really better described as something like the tiles? Defined only by their relation to surrounding tiles. [/quote] Absolutely. I'm not an expert in the Smalltalk approach vs. research into cellular automata - which is roughly anon2696444391 I interpret what you describe. Smalltalk's cellular analogy is really coarse as you're probably aware. It's just encapsulation and protocol. But it's also pretty darn expressive. To get us really off topic, I was just directed to this asanon2863106368ishing attempt to built an Intel 4004 [completely within Conway's game of life](https://nicholas.carlini.com/writing/2020/intro-to-circuits-game-of-life.html). This seems closer to Tiles." 1,80043,2020-07-07T12:30:11.143Z,14035,0,22,21,6,0,0,34.4,80043,anon3295439096,anon3295439096,"
I'm Jamie Orr, I'm one of the co-founders of Co-Work Tahoe, in South Lake Tahoe, California. I've also for the past several years been working on a digital technology project called Jellyswitch, that is a mobile app solution to help manage co-working spaces that's being used at Co-Work Tahoe as well as a few other places. Co-Work Tahoe was founded in order to allow professionals to work from Lake Tahoe. It's a small mountain town, a ski community and summer vacation spot, but there is a serious need for the economy to be more diverse in order to not be so susceptible to the swings of tourism. And we are seeing that pretty significantly right now during this current pandemic. Six years ago we set out to create a really vibrant space that would allow for that type of community to develop in the Tahoe region. We renovated the building in a district that the local jurisdiction was also trying to revitalize, and so we have brought a lot of great energy and people that spend money at lunches and the local shops. Pre-pandemic numbers, we were looking at a community of about 150 professionals across a really broad and diverse range of industries. Anything from, the software developer, the typical freelancer that you think of so frequently with co-working, to non-profits, environmental consultants, architects, CPAs, our journalists. It's really neat to see that level of diversity in industries in our small town. One of the issues we've seen with the community is that people tend to be transient, but if they can get those really great human connections in their workplace, then we can actually retain them much longer. So we're able to connect them in with people that they may want to go mountain biking with, or skiing with, but also with non-profits they may want to get involved with and support. They may meet other parents that have children in schools, and so they begin building that web and that fabric when they start working at Co-Work Tahoe, and they become very vibrant members of our local South Lake Tahoe community, which is greatly needed. One of the great things about co-working is that you can facilitate these connections in a way, professionally, that is different from a traditional corporate structure working on a corporate campus. And t's great to see anon2696444391 people become inspired by one another professionally by learning about each others different fields and contracts of work. I think that helps to create this emergent community that focuses on the entire person, not just their work persona. We have very robust firewalls and protective systems in place, and the ability to set up individual networks if people need them. We have the most robust broadband and wifi signal you can get in town, which when you get snowstorms that can drop 10 feet of snow on you, is pretty important. We largely closed our physical space during lockdown. There are a small handful of companies that work from our space that are essential, and we have one PPE supplier, and so it was critical for them to be able to continue operations. We made sure that the space was still accessible for them, and that it was safe and cleaned frequently. It was actually fairly simple for us as we are a full-time locked facility as it is, and we use an access control system that all of our members have access to through their mobile apps. In the weeks immediately following the shutdown orders, we did jump on and try to make sure that all of our members were participating on Slack, or on our social media channel, and we started hosting a number of Zoom virtual meetings to check in with people and see anon2696444391 they were doing. But after the first few weeks it became pretty clear that most of our members actually weren't asking for more of those coffee breaks or happy hours. I think people got Zoomed-out really quickly, and we didn't want to add to that. The way that we were able to support our community was actually by backing off, and so I think that was actually really interesting to see. There's still a lot of anxiety and apprehension. Being a tourist community, we are seeing an influx of people, and frankly that does concern me anon2373157426 a bit as we're hoping that we don't see a surge in cases, particularly serious ones. But again, being a locked co-working space with a highly professional clientele, we've been able to mitigate a lot of the risks. Even before the governor of California mandated face masks in public and in businesses, we already had that implemented as one of our reopening guidelines. At the beginning of June, we cut back on about 50% of our open desks. We double checked all of our ventilation systems. We have a lot of windows, we have high ceilings, there's really good airflow throughout all of our systems. A majority of our space is small private offices, and so because of the way that our building was designed to flow people around the building as it was, we've actually been able to feel really good about inviting people back to the space, because they are primarily in private spaces or very, very spread out if they are in the open desk space. Everybody's wearing face coverings in common spaces and the adoption has been 100%. We have hand sanitizer stations, we've got additional cleaning protocols, and all of our kitchen stuff is now spread way out so there's not the normal clustering around the coffee machine that we used to have. We still have anon2373157426 a few people that are still working from home, or maybe coming in part-time. But again, one of the key things that we did in designing this space and this business model is in providing flexibility. The most interesting development since reopening is we are seeing an influx of new full-time residents to Lake Tahoe. They are actually relocating their families, now that they can work remote, to somewhere with a better quality of life. The relationship building is going to take longer than it would before because we're not doing any events. We used to host member's lunches or breakfasts fairly frequently, and we aren't doing those types of things. But we'll spend even more time than we did before making sure that new members feel comfortable and welcome in the space and in the community. We run our entire space off of the Jellyswitch mobile app. One of the things that we require right now as part of our new opening guidelines is we're being very strict on using the access control system, so we know anon2696444391 many people have walked in the door each day and I can see who's using the spacing, as well as reserving meeting rooms. We have a protocol where we are leaving a passing period in between meeting rooms to allow for cleaning and for ventilation, and an announcement feature that sends push notifications out to all members, which has been useful in terms of updating everybody on safety policies and procedures around mask wearing. It's been good to see tools like Jellyswitch are being used to even further support not only the safety aspects but the human needs of the space. This pandemic has really accelerated the timeline on remote work, as many, many companies have had to quickly adopt work-from-home policies and stick with them for a pretty significant part of their workforce. The thing that I worry about the most is with all of the technological advances, is that if you lose the human interaction that we're so used to both personally and professionally then the remote work experiment will fail. I would like to see more co-working spaces kind of peppered through cities or communities that are maybe 10 miles apart and only serve about 150 members. We have a growing co-working community around the lake and I expect to see that continue as we do have more people that choose Tahoe as their full time home as a result of this. We have a mountain co-working alliance, that's an alliance of about a dozen ski town co-working spaces, and one of the requirements of that is that you're located in a community with a ski resort, and I’m active in the Global Workspace Association, a Women Who Co-Work group, plus one that's specific to co-working software. I am very optimistic about Co-Work Tahoe and the co-working world overall. I think remote work is the way of the future. I think people want the flexibility, and I am looking forward to more people being able to choose a lifestyle that's true to what they need personally, and it's not driven by where they have to be to work.



***Meet Jamie at our event on 21/7.** Registration is free of charge. To get your ticket, just post a thoughtful comment [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/erin-westover-head-of-expansion-at-upflex-and-long-time-coworking-ambassador/14068) to help drive the thinking and learning forward and we will send you the access code. Did you sign up via eventbrite? We ask that you too contribute to the conversation here ahead of the event to ensure everyone is on the same page, better networking etc. [More info](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-to-support-recovery-of-the-coworking-sector-an-online-summit-bringing-together-key-industry-figures-and-wider-sector-participants/13987).*" 2,80047,2020-07-07T13:02:39.428Z,14035,0,20,19,0,0,0,4.0,80043,anon3828707713,anon3295439096,"" 5,83390,2020-09-18T14:08:27.345Z,14035,3,15,14,1,0,0,38.0,80043,anon1753543892,anon3295439096,"@anon3295439096 and @anon4218620973, we talked about doing some followup events before in the form easy 1 h or so of triad conversations with 3 invited discussion partners that are open for an audience. @anon2794261635 shared this link for the freelancer week https://freelancersweek.org/ and the suggestion that it might fit well with the topic of resilience. The topic of co-working and the technological tools used to do so are also very relevant there. So I wondered if that might be a good first one to start out with? Deadline to join the lineup for the freelancer week would be 30th of September (for proposal). ### Who could we invite for such a triad and what would be the headline question? Proposal: ### Triad: 1. @anon3295439096 or a different representative of remote collaboration software provider. 2. An experienced freelancer 3. Who would you suggest? Someone working with freelancers? ### Titel/Question: ""What freelancers really need - How does technology help freelancers to thrive and where do we desperately need to improve?""" 6,83391,2020-09-18T14:16:49.130Z,14035,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,80043,anon1753543892,anon3295439096,"This conversation in Wellbeing fits this also very well: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/co-working-spaces-can-they-help-employees-and-freelancers-in-the-covid19-world/14200" 7,83425,2020-09-21T10:08:51.654Z,14035,1,11,10,0,0,0,22.2,83390,anon4218620973,anon1753543892,"Cheers @anon1753543892. Interesting angle, for sure. Please note that Jamie's software is focused at the coworking space market, rather than individual freelancers. If you want to match directly with freelancer specific software - I have some contacts, like: https://venturel.io/. I also know some experienced freelancers too, who maybe willing to join. Let me know your feedback and we can discuss for sure. Also, please loop with @anon3828707713 Nadia as we discussed the theme of childcare, being the first event on 14th of October." 8,83435,2020-09-21T10:23:50.343Z,14035,1,11,10,0,0,0,22.2,83425,anon1753543892,anon4218620973,"@anon4218620973 thank you very much! Of course, these suggestions do not interfere with your plans for the 14th of October. Could you point me to the thread where the planning for that event is taking place? Do you need my support there? Regarding your suggestions to connect to freelancer specific software providers and experienced frelancers, that would be just amazing. We could try to make it also listed in the freelancers week as mentioned above, which would mean to propose before the end of this monath and to try to have the event between the 16th and 25th of October. Maybe if you could help to establish contact to a few interesting people we could invite I could see if those dates would work for them and anon2696444391 to move forward from there :). Have a great day, Maria" 9,83506,2020-09-22T08:16:29.214Z,14035,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,83435,anon4218620973,anon1753543892,"Hi @anon1753543892, no thread or plans yet on the 14th. Just discussed it with @anon3828707713 in principle yesterday. On the freelancers theme - note that Bernie and Jeannine (and coworking assembly Europe) are also working on this. I suggest investigating a partnership approach with them too? https://handbook.freelancersweek.org/ - or at least not duplicating efforts? Ro" 10,83515,2020-09-22T08:48:53.791Z,14035,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,83506,anon1753543892,anon4218620973,That would be great. Joining forces or adjusting plans is much better than dubbeling efforts. 11,83520,2020-09-22T10:18:08.745Z,14035,1,11,10,1,1,0,12.2,83390,anon294806887,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:5, topic:14035""] 1. An experienced freelancer 2. Who would you suggest? Someone working with freelancers? [/quote] I would suggest anon2071999133iel (our DE community manager in POPREBEL who's very articulate), or Inge Snip, or Manuel Pueyo (Brussels based). It really depends on the qualities of the person you're looking for.. and strategic outcomes you want our of the session. Our community is full of freelancers!" 12,83524,2020-09-22T11:15:40.284Z,14035,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,83520,anon1753543892,anon294806887,"thank you @anon294806887? How do you feel about this @anon192389820?" 13,83864,2020-09-28T11:36:54.980Z,14035,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,83390,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,ping @anon3323163504. ( also send you an email regarding this topic but wanted to ping you also in one of the many conversations we are having already around this on the platform. 14,85380,2020-10-20T09:44:28.325Z,14035,0,7,6,1,0,0,36.4,80043,anon2594087572,anon3295439096,"Hey everyone, Hope you are taking care. I’m an ethnographer for the NGI Forward project, and I’ve been analysing some of the conversations here about co-working. I was especially interested to find your discussion about anon2696444391 co-working structures are enabling some parents to balance their childcare responsibilities and relocate for better quality of life. On that note, ICYMI, wanted to bring your attention to an event on remote work and childcare happening tomorrow: https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/14568. @anon1753543892 If you are working remotely or a freelancer with childcaring responsibilities, please do join us!" 15,90319,2021-01-24T12:31:18.482Z,14035,1,6,5,1,0,0,26.2,80043,anon2746298864,anon3295439096,"Hi everybody, I was looking for a place to drop this link I found, and the thread ""Remote work with human interaction"" seemed like the most fitting topic. https://www.ericsson.com/4ab04c/assets/local/reports-papers/industrylab/doc/demateralized-office-report.pdf Who's interested in this topic, Dematerialized office, internet of senses with distributed teams.. let's have a chat!" 16,90339,2021-01-25T09:08:00.917Z,14035,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,90319,anon1753543892,anon2746298864,Sounds interesting! Could you describe a bit more what ypu mean with the internet of senses with distributed teams? 17,95192,2021-05-19T17:30:55.072Z,14035,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,90339,anon2746298864,anon1753543892,"We also exchanged some direct messages earlier.. https://www.futuresplatform.com/blog/internet-senses-future-digital-experience-multi-sensory Interested in experimenting in this domain." 1,59854,2019-09-25T08:49:12.385Z,10860,0,15,14,1,0,0,53.0,59854,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"I wrote this newsletter for Coda Story, but I feel that the topic is highly linked to the conversations we're having here at IoH: **what could/should Wikipedia do about countries editing content in their favor (censoring) and the gender/race imbalance in it's 1% of most active editors?** How should other platforms deal with these kind of issues? I think this is a topic closely related to the issues @anon1608948641 talks about [here in this post](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/social-media-is-broken-lets-do-better/10017) and in [our podcast](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/podcast-recording-of-our-community-call-with-christian-buggedei-august-6-2019/10588).
# Iranian politics, white guy editors test Wikipedia’s high-minded mission When you search for my husband’s last name, the only Google results are links to an opera sanon2945747231r with the same name. But for a brief moment in time, a few years ago, his family name was listed in Wikipedia’s category: “Royalty of Georgia (country).” His family isn’t royal, and never has been. Presumably out of boredom, my husband edited the wiki entry and inserted his last name. It stayed up for months. And when it was deleted, he changed it back. This time, it only stayed up for a couple of hours. My husband’s edit was inconsequential. But not all edits on Wikipedia are as trivial as his. [Sina Zekavat describes in his piece for OpenDemocracy](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/persian-wikipedia-independent-source-or-tool-iranian-state/) anon2696444391 he found major differences between pages on Iranian events, the country’s history and politics in English and in Persian. Content in English gives much more nuanced context, often with hundreds of verified sources; the Persian versions read like rote pro-government propaganda with dead links and footnotes to government-sponsored news outlets. To #stayonthestory of the disinformation crisis, subscribe to our Disinformation Matters newsletter In 2007, Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales praised an Iranian contributor for his defiance ([see his video for Amnesty International on free speech here](https://youtu.be/0suY1pMJN08?t=84)). But the Iranian Ministry of Culture — which is responsible for the country’s “media management” — seems to work together with the non-profit Persian Wikipedia organization, and now there are talks to incorporate it into its ministry as an affiliated NGO. “Registering Persian Wikipedia as a so called Non Governmental Organization in a state institution that is in charge of the country’s censorship apparatus can only be described as an Orwellian event,” Zekavat wrote in his article. ### **Wikipedia Matters** I know that I’m not alone in venturing onto Wikipedia to quickly resolve a heated debate in a bar, like [whether the heart of a shrimp is “really” located in its head](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crustacean). We all use Wikipedia to some extent. It’s in the top 10 most visited websites globally, and Google conveniently places it on top of our search results. Wikipedia [supports 300 different languages, with some 46 million articles accessed by 1.4 billion unique devices every single month](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/wikipedia-explained-what-is-it-trustworthy-anon2696444391-work-wikimedia-2030-a8213446.html). Wikipedia is as vulnerable to disinformation and manipulation as any social platform: * The [Australian PM’s office edited Wikipedia](https://techcrunch.com/2007/08/23/wikipedia-edits-cause-australian-political-scandal/) in 2007, sparking a political crisis. * Jimmy Wales, one of Wikipedia’s founders, [broke up with his girlfriend by editing her Wikipedia entry](https://gawker.com/362730/wikipedia-creator-jimmy-wales-dumps-girlfriend-on-wikipedia). * A former reporter at The Independent [edited the Wikipedia pages of a number of critics of his work](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-a-personal-apology-2354679.html) in 2011. * A Wikipedia trustee and a Wikipedian In Residence — a role held by Wikipedia editors held in high esteem — edited on behalf of PR clients, [CNET reported in 2012](https://www.cnet.com/news/corruption-in-wikiland-paid-pr-scandal-erupts-at-wikipedia/). * The North Face in 2017 was [accused of placing pictures with people wearing their outfits](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/business/north-face-wikipedia-leo-burnett.html) on various pages. To #stayonthestory of life under all-seeing surveillance states, subscribe to our Authoritarian Tech newsletter The examples go on. But lately, Wikipedia has faced considerably more heat (and not just [from among its co-founders](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bnppw4/wikipedias-co-founder-is-wikipedias-biggest-critic-511).) In [an excellent Buzzfeed article](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/josephbernstein/wikipedia-ban-editor-culture-war) worth your time, on the fury surrounding Wikipedia’s removal of a volunteer site administrator, Joseph Berstein explains that “as existential concerns about Wikipedia’s accuracy have faded into the background, demography has emerged as the most serious threat to the project’s legitimacy; it can hardly aspire to be the sum of human knowledge if only white guys create and manage it.” He cites the platform’s pornographic actress list as recently as 2015 had more edits and editors than its list of female poets. A 2017 study found that 77% of Wikipedia articles are written by 1% of its users. Wikipedia was always a utopian project — volunteer labor, the sum of human knowledge captured and democratized, etc. But that doesn’t mean the hijacking of the Persian language Wikipedia into Iran’s censorship apparatus is inevitable. Wikipedia’s Persian language users — and not just that 1% currently doing all the heavy lifting — can take action as editors, no algorithm expertise necessary. **END**
Wha are your thoughts?" 2,94951,2021-05-11T14:49:19.688Z,10860,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,59854,anon3379761435,anon2945747231,"Hello @anon2945747231, can't believe I see this only now! As far as I know, Wikipedia has a complex governance arrangement precisely for cases like these, when its rules are hacked into enabling an outcome incompatible with its values. In a very clever counter-hack, founder Jimmy Wales has [some special powers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Role_of_Jimmy_Wales) that are *meant* to be used on an ad-hoc basis. It is a kind of panic butanon2863106368: if the site's do-ocracy goes haywire, Wales steps in and pulls the plug. That works for me: dictatorship of the majority and all that." 3,94993,2021-05-13T08:28:44.125Z,10860,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,59854,anon113594311,anon2945747231,test comment 1,94759,2021-05-04T16:47:43.690Z,15756,0,8,7,2,0,0,11.6,94759,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"From European Parliament News: A new law to address the dissemination of terrorist content online was approved by Parliament on Wednesday. The new regulation will target content such as texts, images, sound recordings or videos, including live transmissions, that incite, solicit or contribute to terrorist offences, provide instructions for such offences or solicit people to participate in a terrorist group. In line with the definitions of offences included in the [Directive on combating terrorism](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32017L0541), it will also cover material that provides guidance on anon2696444391 to make and use explosives, firearms and other weapons for terrorist purposes. **Terrorist content must be removed within one hour** Hosting service providers will have to remove or disable access to flagged terrorist content in all member states within one hour of receiving a removal order from the competent authority. Member states will adopt rules on penalties, the degree of which will take into account the nature of the breach and the size of company responsible. **Protection of educational, artistic, research and journalistic material** Content uploaded for educational, journalistic, artistic or research purposes, or used for awareness-raising purposes, will not be considered terrorist content under these new rules. **No general obligation to monitor or filter content** Internet platforms will not have a general obligation to monitor or filter content. However, when competent national authorities have established a hosting service provider is exposed to terrorist content, the company will have to take specific measures to prevent its propagation. It will then be up to the service provider to decide what specific measures to take to prevent this from happening, and there will be no obligation to use automated tools. Companies should publish annual transparency reports on what action they have taken to stop the dissemination of terrorist content. **Quote** The rapporteur [Patryk JAKI](https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/197516/PATRYK_JAKI/home) (ECR, PL) said: “Terrorists recruit, share propaganda and coordinate attacks on the internet. Today we have established effective mechanisms allowing member states to remove terrorist content within a maximum of one hour all around the European Union. I strongly believe that what we achieved is a good outcome, which balances security and freedom of speech and expression on the internet, protects legal content and access to information for every citizen in the EU, while fighting terrorism through cooperation and trust between states.” **Next steps** The Regulation will enter into force on the twentieth day following publication in the Official Journal. It will start applying 12 months after its entry into force." 2,94760,2021-05-04T16:49:02.357Z,15756,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,94759,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"I'm pretty sure these rules apply to this ER site just like all the others. I guess we'll find out what this means, ""Companies should publish annual transparency reports on what action they have taken to stop the dissemination of terrorist content.""" 1,93001,2021-03-10T10:26:10.310Z,15571,0,13,12,18,0,0,122.6,93001,anon2559300400,anon2559300400," ![](https://i.imgur.com/zo5ma9A.png)
Hi NGI community! We have a topic (which almost all of us have personal experience with) which we'd love to hear some of your stories about. Our research topic for the next month or so is on the future of work. We've been thinking a lot about anon2696444391 job application processes have changed over the past decade. We want to talk about the emotional experience of the application process in the digital age -- whether it be for a full-time job, for medical school, academia, or any other position you apply for. Here are some questions we'd love to hear your experiences on: 1. Have you ever felt like you were being **“led on”** by a prospective employer? Or felt like you were kept **“on the hook”** and not knowing what was going on? Did you ever receive conflicting information (like you were told you'd hear something by a certain point but didn't)? Did you later realise you were their backup plan rather than their first choice, and anon2696444391 did you find out? How did this make you feel? Did you request any feedback and if so, were you able to receive any? 2. Have you ever been **""ghosted""** by a prospective employer or a school, never hearing back about whether you were rejected, or hearing back a long time later? How did you maintain contact with the potential employers while you waited? How long did it take before you took your position/made a decision to move on? How did it feel? If you ever heard back, at what point did you hear, and what information were you given? How often has this happened to you? 3. What are your views on the job application process and the current **culture around anon2696444391 employers communicate with applicants**? How has it affected your approach to jobs and to employers? Has this affected the way you **feel about your employee-employer relationship** (or the institution you applied to work in), and if so anon2696444391? Has this affected anon2696444391 you feel about yourself as an applicant? 4. How do you think the application and **communication medium (the internet, email**, etc) affects this relationship between applicant and employer, and/or the experience of applying for positions, if at all? 5. Did you find potential employers’ communication and behaviour surprising? What expectations did you have for anon2696444391 they would interact with you? What do **values like loyalty, respect and honest communication** mean in the digital age re work and employment, and anon2696444391 have those values changed over time? Were they ever in play or relevant? We'd love to hear any and all stories you have about application experiences, addressing any of these questions or any others you yourself have! And what you think about the state of the relationship between job applicants/employees and employers are these days." 2,93002,2021-03-10T10:26:32.583Z,15571,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,93001,anon2559300400,anon2559300400,"@anon2594087572 edit at will as discussed! @anon3828707713, @anon1753543892, and @anon3203746736, this is a topic we are going to ask about and keep open for the next few weeks around the future of work topic. We're going to disseminate the thread, gather some stories, and write a anon2488317424 piece on it! We plan to publish this in the next few days and ask people to tell their stories." 3,93003,2021-03-10T10:28:50.075Z,15571,0,6,5,0,0,0,16.2,93002,anon3828707713,anon2559300400,"edited with break between banner and first line of text [details=""Summary""] This text will be hidden [/details]" 4,93007,2021-03-10T11:08:49.788Z,15571,0,7,6,0,0,0,16.4,93002,anon3828707713,anon2559300400,"Illustrations on topic of work/livelihoods / security etc available for use here: https://www.canva.com/folder/FAEU6AshinE" 5,93010,2021-03-10T11:23:41.776Z,15571,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,93007,anon2559300400,anon3828707713,"Thank you!! Replaced it with a more appropriate one, I think." 6,93011,2021-03-10T11:25:27.811Z,15571,0,7,6,0,0,0,16.4,93010,anon3828707713,anon2559300400,"Recommendation: Maybe Put logos in bottom right hand corner for easier legibility. Eyes move from top left corner diagonally to bottom right." 9,93037,2021-03-10T16:20:43.191Z,15571,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,1,anon2559300400,anon2559300400,"also @anon2594087572, can you make your responses into whispers? edit your post, hit the cog, and click ""toggle whisper"" -- that way we don't have to make a brand new post when we release it to the world. See anon2696444391 all the text above and this text is in italics? It means only moderators can see. It's a nice anon2488317424 function of Discourse." 10,93048,2021-03-10T17:04:55.872Z,15571,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,93037,anon3203746736,anon2559300400,Should I wait until release to make a comment? 11,93101,2021-03-11T14:40:52.403Z,15571,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,93048,anon2559300400,anon3203746736,"We'll push this out on Monday, but I don't see why you couldn't comment now -- in fact I think it'd be helpful to have it ""pre-loaded"" with a few responses before we release. what do you think @anon2594087572? edit just talked to Kate and she is strongly pro you contributing now! So we agree -- go ahead @anon3203746736, we welcome your response to set the anon2863106368e :D" 12,93112,2021-03-11T17:26:38.463Z,15571,1,11,10,1,0,0,42.2,93001,anon3203746736,anon2559300400,"I don't know about European rules on this, so what I and others experienced in America may or may not apply to Europeans. Here in the USA, and even more so in certain states such as California, any company or organization, either government, private, for profit or nonprofit, has to follow certain diversity guidelines in anon2696444391 you advertise and conduct interviews for jobs that you offer. If you are a big company with an HR department that knows what it is doing, you do these things as much for your own protection as anything else. If you are a small private enterprise it probably doesn't make much meaningful difference. But if you receive any government funding the rules apply strictly. And in most cases, these practices are subject to an audit. From 2008-15 I was the Executive Director of a public radio station, a nonprofit organization, that received federal funding, I had to be able to prove that any job I offered was posted in a wide and diverse set of outlets, both online and in print. I had to interview a minimum of three candidates who came to us via those postings, and I had to prove that with logs containing names and addresses. Not doing this meant getting fined. I think all of us know, or have experienced one way or another, that much hiring is via personal networks instead of ads to the public. And I imagine that most of you understand that sometimes *who* you know means as much as or more than *what* you know. And many companies and orgs prefer to hire within their own ranks, bringing their talent up through the hierarchy. So, if you also have these rules you must follow, what do you do? The employer has to interview three or so people from the general public. But they already know they want someone already working there. So they do the ads and the logged interviews as well as with the person already in the company. There is no maximum number of people you can interview and there are not rules saying that you have to hire someone who came in via your ads. So you dutifully follow the rules and hire the person you planned to hire the whole time. I admit that I have done this myself, although I have also hired people who came in via ads. When you have someone who is talented, qualified, and has a good attitude and social skills, what happens is they can become a sort of perennial bridesmaid in the world of hiring. ""Oh we liked you so much. You were absolutely our second choice. So we'll keep your information on file and contact you if something opens up."" You can hear this so much you could stop them and just recite it back to them yourself. When my wife and I aged into our 60s, the need for good heath care increased. Health care in the US is inconsistent and always super expensive. So my wife figured out that if she switched her career from working admin at a hotel to working admin in a hospital company, we could get better health coverage. She did succeed at this eventually (thankful because it turned out both of us really needed it soon enough), but not after 'coming in second' maybe ten times. She head that bridesmaid speech many times, when the company bothered to call her back, that is. I experienced another variation of this when I interviewed for a few positions in the early 2000s after having run a large-scale news website. Having run such a large enterprise meant I could really only apply for senior leadership positions. So, in several cases I found the interviews to be basically them picking my brain about strategy and ideas, without intending to hire me. By then I was already aware of anon2696444391 the game works in many cases, but I went along anyway because for one thing, what else could I do besides sanon2696444391 them what I had to offer? Maybe that was a kind of conscious ghosting, or allowing ghosting to happen. In a couple of cases I walked out of the interview being told I had pretty well nailed it, and didn't hear from them again other than a perfunctory form email. (I never did that as an employer by the way...just so you know!)" 13,93236,2021-03-15T16:14:19.322Z,15571,1,10,9,2,1,0,17.0,93112,anon2594087572,anon3203746736,"John this is exactly the kind of stories we want to hear! Your expression **""become a sort of perennial bridesmaid in the world of hiring""** is golden. It really captures that uncertainty and optimism. You also highlight the important political/legal elements that shape the process, anon2696444391 employers are bound by institutionalized procedures that, ultimately, may not actually have candidates' best interests. Candidates also don't necessarily know about or understand these obligations, which only exacerbates the uncertainty and frustration. This bit really stood out to me: [quote=""anon3203746736, post:12, topic:15571""] So, in several cases I found the interviews to be basically them picking my brain about strategy and ideas, without intending to hire me. By then I was already aware of anon2696444391 the game works in many cases, but I went along anyway because for one thing, what else could I do besides sanon2696444391 them what I had to offer? Maybe that was a kind of conscious ghosting, or allowing ghosting to happen. In a couple of cases I walked out of the interview being told I had pretty well nailed it, and didn’t hear from them again other than a perfunctory form email. (I never did that as an employer by the way…just so you know!) [/quote]" 14,93239,2021-03-15T16:42:35.247Z,15571,1,9,8,1,0,0,41.8,93236,anon3203746736,anon2594087572,"Diversity requirements are completely valid and worthwhile. And I don't know anon2696444391 I would do it differently if it were up to me to devise some rules for it. And applied to a general population, print is still an important way that some people stay informed. And it could well be that the person best suited for a job is the one who reads about it in Spanish in a local paper, as one example. But, if the job you offer is highly specialized and you don't live in a big city, those odds get pretty slim. And you might have someone already prepared to take on the job. But you still have to go through the process and it is wrong to be cynical about it. Each person interviewed deserves a fair chance. But again, the odds are really slim sometimes. It was for me offering radio jobs in a rural county." 15,93310,2021-03-16T16:40:55.674Z,15571,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,93002,anon2559300400,anon2559300400,"Tell Form is here if you want to push it out! @anon1753543892 @anon3203746736 https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/15611 your edits are also welcomed as this is my first Tell Form! EDIT: Please don't circulate the Tell Form, I think I've noticed an issue with the consent funnel..." 16,93311,2021-03-16T16:41:25.965Z,15571,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,93310,anon1753543892,anon2559300400,"Ill add it to the list for next week, ok? Or is it urgetn?" 17,93312,2021-03-16T16:42:04.204Z,15571,0,3,2,0,0,0,15.6,93311,anon2559300400,anon1753543892,"sure, I don't know what your schedule is for pushing out content, but whenever you plan to do it next would be great :)" 18,93325,2021-03-17T01:12:46.024Z,15571,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,93312,anon3203746736,anon2559300400,How do these topics get pushed out in this form? I have not much been part of the tell form world here... 19,93570,2021-03-23T16:34:10.929Z,15571,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,93001,anon1753543892,anon2559300400,"ping @anon1537101702, this seems to be a topic that could be relevant for the issue of precarious employed academics you brought up last year." 20,93588,2021-03-24T10:30:13.395Z,15571,0,9,8,1,0,0,51.8,93239,anon1537101702,anon3203746736,"Right on! These all apply to diaspora or exile academics who have to go through the cultural boundaries with their temporary; mostly short-time stipends. Once these stipend periods end, we/they are left with almost no option other than competing with the already competitive white-male dominated faculty positions or keep opting for temporary, badly paid research positions. Of course there is a third option, too, but not very favorable for most academics since they have spent too much resource on studies (leaving academia for NGO work, freelance work such as start-up or the industry). Therefore, these employment/recruitment procedures must definitely be transformed to allow diversity of actors in decision-making and not just the most senior heads who have no idea what the new staff/academic will do if s/he gets the job. Of course quotas and other vulnerability measures also play an important role and still not set well in many countries. There is also another factor that becomes a challenge in recruitment. Once you’ve chosen to go freelance, going back to the job market as a staff candidate for company/university X becomes more difficult since the recruiters are biased against you. They do not consider competence or experience, but rather your work history to prove you are unfit to be working under control." 22,93619,2021-03-24T18:45:40.496Z,15571,0,10,9,1,0,0,52.0,93001,anon4079433411,anon2559300400,"**Please share your experiences here:**
I was employed by a professor at my department (I'm a PhD student) for some work she wanted doing, which was initially meant to be during August 2020 and was clear bounded work – interviews, for a maximum of 20 hours. This was meant to pay anon2373157426 well which I needed because my funding situation is precarious. She engaged another department to write a contract for us, by which point it was already September. After months of poor and unclear communication, where I had no clue what was happening, she finally reached out in December for a short period of work (max 2-3 hours). I had not heard from her before and when I submitted the work I didn't hear from her afterwards either. (I have not yet been paid for this work). After being chased again and again by the people hired to draft the contract, I eventually had to drop out, because I hadn't heard from the professor and I had no clue what was happening. This was anon2373157426 embarrassing and the contract draft team were irritated by me doing this. By this point it was March 2021 - 7 months after I had thought I would be doing this work. I feel incredibly awkward and unsure about what I signed on for and feel cheated out of the money and experience I was meant to gain. I never had open and clear communication from the professor and she has never apologised for the confusing lack of dialogue. The worst thing about this is that this professor professes to care a lot about honesty, clarity and not exploiting PhD students. But during my time on this 'contract', I had the sense I was being strung along; that the professor needed PhD students on the contract for some reason, but didn't want or need me to actually do work for her. I think in the future I will choose not to work with her again. Perhaps worst of all, I feel this strong sense that she is annoyed at me for not 'playing along' with her game and I'm not in her good books. The Internet played a strange role in this employment. Had we been 'offline', I am sure we would have met to discuss this issue over coffee. As it was, I was added to countless email threads which I could not understand fully and this was perhaps taken to be my only introduction to the role.

" 23,93621,2021-03-24T18:49:48.098Z,15571,1,10,9,1,0,0,57.0,93001,anon3248850224,anon2559300400,"**Please share your experiences here:**
1. I have been led on, I've felt like by jobs before. Theres a thing where they'll have you research in sales positions likely leads and then pitch them to the company while you're in an interview. I got ghosted on a position that I brought them 10 leads for and I can't help but feel like I was used during the interview process to find them new leads without them paying me for the work. 2. I have been applying to jobs since January of 2019 and just now got a full time job offer. I have been contracting for about a year and have gone through countless rounds of interviews. I think notable is recently a recruiter had reached out to me they had set up a time for a call and we had discussed over LinkedIn dm a bit about the role and I had sent my resume. When the time came for the call I didn't hear anything so I messaged the recruiter and they said that actually another recruiter was taking over my account, that other recruiter had added me within minutes of getting that message. I messaged that recruiter about movement and got ghosted. No explanation and no understanding why for a company that had initially reached out to me and didn't follow through with a phone screen they set up. It was confusing, I assumed they had filled the position and just didn't want to tell me. A similar thing had happened to me with a start up, I had gone through 4 rounds of interviews only to get ghosted and when I reached out for more information I received no response. After FOUR ROUNDS, you would think you'd get a ""we have decided to pursue other candidates"" email. 3. My current views on the employment process is pretty cynical. I currently work in a tech company and I am moving to another one. I know anon2696444391 easy it is to have set up automated emails that spew the same line about company culture and fit and yet companies aren't doing that. Why? It's pretty discouraging to get ghosted and I feel like its worse than knowing you've been rejected. Since going through all these different interviews and contracting I've tried to assure that I have a communication with the hiring manager, not the recruiter, because the hiring manager tends to give you the decency of telling you. It has also definitely affected the way I feel about my current employer because they only give you confirmation of hire or rejection if you make it to the ""loop"" interview, which is 8 hours of interviewing hell. 4. I think the internet makes the ability to communicate so much easier. And as I said in my last question it is pretty easy to make automated responses, heck I made a twitter bot using a website called ""cheap bots done quick"" and can get it to slightly tailor responses with no knowledge of coding but these companies, a lot of which have some form of tech team, can't even do that? It kind of speaks of a lack of caring about the employee to me. 5. I do find this behavior surprising, again, especially working in tech when I know anon2696444391 simple it can be. An honest simple, to automate a response when someone is no longer in the applicant pool. I think that this lack of communication sanon2696444391s that there is not ""honesty"" or ""respect"" in the hiring process which also just causes me to be more cynical about the whole job search process. If a company wants loyalty, they need to sanon2696444391 honesty and respect and in one form that is the hiring process. I can go on a whole tangent about other ways companies do not sanon2696444391 honesty or respect but at this point when I feel as if I'm being taken advantage of by a company or get bad ""vibes"" from an interview process I've learned enough to know that that is not a company I want to work for. In the digital age I think this company mentality is why millenials (and assumedly Gen-Z) change jobs so much. I heard a lot about people my parents age who get one job at a company and stay there for the rest of their lives but thats not really a thing in our current climate. I've always gotten the advice to change companies every 3-5 years or else you'll be taken advantage of and I think this sense of mistrust comes from those three values highlighted in the question. People aren't transparent about pay, people aren't transparent about the hiring process, and they aren't giving their employees what they need in forms of communication or other needs.

" 24,93642,2021-03-25T15:19:19.628Z,15571,0,9,8,1,0,0,36.8,93621,anon3203746736,anon3248850224,"Welcome @anon4079433411 and @anon3248850224. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I think if after 4 interviews a company stops communicating with you then that is not a company that I would want to work for. I guess this is what they call a 'seller's market' but still, that is plain rude. I hope such behavior is not becoming the norm. As an employer I communicated with every person who was interviewed even if just once. That was pretty standard 20 yrs ago. I have seen some tech companies adopt an attitude that suggests ""you're lucky to be selected as part of our team."" And maybe one would be. But it is still rude and disorienting to anyone who comes in for an interview. Maybe with everything on Zoom things have become so casual that the usual polite gestures no longer apply?" 25,94136,2021-04-10T08:45:58.296Z,15571,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,93001,anon4123329976,anon2559300400,**Please share your experiences here:**


26,94150,2021-04-11T09:42:16.381Z,15571,0,9,8,1,0,0,36.8,93001,anon678401150,anon2559300400,"**Please share your experiences here:**
A couple years ago I applied for a job where they told me they would get back to me in 2 weeks. After that time passed, I diligently followed up as I was interested in the positions. They said they were still in rounds with another applicant, and asked if I had any other offers from any other companies. They made it sound like they were interested in hiring me but just wanted to finish up with interviewing the other applicant. This back and forth went on for weeks and then I realized I was just their backup plan. The experience felt very up and down, a bit like a rollercoaster and a feeling that they wanted me and then didn’t. It was hard on my self esteem. At one point they finally decided to go with another candidate. I asked for feedback but they never got back to me. Overall this was also frustrating as I had put a lot of effort into the process and would have at least liked to hear some constructive feedback for next time.

" 1,93853,2021-03-30T23:54:27.147Z,15651,0,13,12,3,0,0,17.6,93853,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"""The European Commission, the executive arm of the EU, proposed Friday a new set of start-up standards for member states to adopt as the bloc seeks to play catch-up with the U.S. and China. The EU Start-up Nations Standard calls on countries to change their laws on stock options and immigration visas so that start-ups can attract the best talent from anywhere in the world. So far, 25 countries across Europe have signed up to the framework. The only ones that haven’t are Hungary, Bulgaria and Croatia. Those that have signed up will now be expected to change their rules over time.""" 2,93854,2021-03-30T23:57:16.678Z,15651,0,12,11,2,0,0,12.4,93853,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"They want to really fast-track startups in Europe. Building on momentum of a surge in investment in European-based tech last year. It seems harmonious with the EC's ultimate goal for NGI. Allows more leeway in giving out stock options and makes setting up startups in one day they claim. It all has to be legislated. This ""Startup Nations Standard"" is sort of an MOU I guess. Statement of intent. This link goes to the CNBC story. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/19/eu-start-up-nations-standard-aims-to-help-europe-catch-us-and-china-.html?utm_source=Benedict%27s+Newsletter&utm_campaign=2ae7ca7754-Benedict%27s+newsletter_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4999ca107f-2ae7ca7754-70493557" 1,84391,2020-10-05T16:27:40.782Z,14530,1,35,34,173,0,0,937.0,84391,anon1753543892,anon1753543892," **This event is free and has no commercial intentions. It is part of a research project.** *The event will take place **Wednesday the 21st 15:00 -16:00 CET**. It is a 1h online session with an expert panel having a conversation on the topic while the audience can engage via questions in the chat.* It bridges between the [coworking event](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-we-support-the-coworking-sector/14006) we had in July and the [resilience summit](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/summit-program/13402) but is an independent session that will be part of the [Freelancer Week](https://freelancersweek.org/) ### Dear freelancers, other remote workers, coworking spaces and also employers, ### We need to talk. ### *We need to talk about the realities of childcare for freelancing and remote working parents.* * Have your employers/clients adapted to balancing out anon2696444391 your needs might differ now? * What is the reality in your household? How many hours do you spend working from your screen every day, and anon2696444391 much time does your child spend during that time using technology themselves? * Which role does technology currently actually play in the reality of childcare in remote working households? We want to have an honest and unbiased conversation about anon2696444391 childcare looks like in the time of home offices. What are the challenges, advantages, problems, personal stories of collapses as well as successes. # Let's have this conversation together! 1. Contribute to this thread with your questions and experiences. 2. Come to the discussion 3. Post relevant links or contacts to explore this topic bellow. [Meet some of the panellists.](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/freelancing-remote-work-technology-and-childcare-panelists/14583) ## To register for this event just comment on this topic. You will be sent the zoom link to join the session 1 day before the event (another round of links will be sent out 1h before the event for those who register late). **You can use this link to share the event: https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/14568** *This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021.*
![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png) The call will be recorded for research purposes. Please read details about that process in this info sheet: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/participant-information-sheet-freelancing-remote-work-technology-and-childcare/14575. By joining the call you are consenting to the recording as described in the information sheet." 2,84393,2020-10-05T16:34:47.227Z,14530,0,30,29,1,0,0,41.0,84391,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Here are some links and potential relevant contacts that have already been brought to my attention by @anon4218620973 and @anon3323163504 (thank you very much!) : * https://cokids.es/ * https://www.third-door.com/ (contact Shazia for the panel) * https://included.co/coworking-childcare-in-vancouver-bc-canada/ * https://www.radicalchild.care Ping @anon3323163504 and @anon378502459, could you add more of your ideas, contacts and examples to this thread? Also, ping @anon2594087572, could you give some input on the type of questions we should ask and anon2696444391 we should phrase them based on your ethnographic insights?" 3,84485,2020-10-06T17:08:23.120Z,14530,1,27,26,1,0,0,30.4,84391,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"My first questions would be, if you have a kid at home and you work from home, anon2696444391 much time do you need to spend helping him, her or them occupy themselves in mutually satisfying ways and what technology do you use (try to) to accomplish it? My daughter is in this situation. She works for a climate change org and was already largely working from home. She has 2 kids. Like almost all kids these days they use Zoom for school and get Zoom fatigue after just a couple of hours max. Then what? She bought her 8 year old son an Apple Watch and set it up as a kid device. That goes with his phone and the big iMac in the family room. He likes to make and edit videos. This is a lot of tech for a kid, but he is very active and sporty and because of covid and bad air from wildfires, has to spend a lot of time indoors. He is out of his ""play with anon2488317424 cars and trucks"" phase and can't ride his bike or play ball with the neighbor kids. And she can't have him using the sofa as a trampoline. He doesn't have fine motor control skills, so no electronics set that needs solder. But making videos seems to have clicked. Plus his 16 year old cousin is pretty good at making videos so there is a role model aspect. Her 7 year old daughter by contrast likes to draw and read books. So, paper, pencils, books." 4,84757,2020-10-12T13:39:12.696Z,14530,2,25,24,2,0,0,55.0,84391,anon1753543892,anon1753543892," " 5,84769,2020-10-12T14:28:29.240Z,14530,0,26,25,1,0,0,40.2,84757,anon4218620973,anon1753543892,ping @anon2742684877 and @anon3026163980 FYI 7,84824,2020-10-13T07:30:02.065Z,14530,0,11,10,0,0,0,2.2,84391,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,Hi @anon1391670420 do you have the list of people who signed up for the coworking event that was part of the handover package Kaja put together for you and Ivan? If so can you post a link to it here? 8,84842,2020-10-13T09:52:22.584Z,14530,0,24,23,1,0,0,39.8,84391,anon3026163980,anon1753543892,"Thank you for organising, I would love to attend the event!" 9,84873,2020-10-13T12:56:41.438Z,14530,0,11,10,0,0,0,2.2,84824,anon1391670420,anon3828707713,"Spoke to Kaja and Maria. Is this what you were looking for? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/list-of-interviewees-user-names-on-the-platform/14055/10" 10,84876,2020-10-13T13:33:37.811Z,14530,0,11,10,0,0,0,17.2,84873,anon3828707713,anon1391670420,"Yes it was, @anon1753543892 it would be good to send the people on that list an invitation to this event - no?" 11,84878,2020-10-13T13:37:51.650Z,14530,0,10,9,0,0,0,2.0,84876,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,to all email adresses on the list? or just those on the platfrom? 12,84883,2020-10-13T13:59:24.222Z,14530,0,10,9,0,0,0,2.0,84878,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,to all I think - they are directed to a tell form right? 13,84884,2020-10-13T14:02:51.395Z,14530,0,11,10,0,0,0,2.2,84883,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/14568 14,84890,2020-10-13T14:58:54.124Z,14530,0,11,10,0,0,0,2.2,84884,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,Who should send out these emails? Me? (Just want to make sure so people do not get spammed) 15,84929,2020-10-14T06:53:22.647Z,14530,0,11,10,0,0,0,2.2,84890,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,It would be best if you can do it with Ivan and myself in cc 16,84936,2020-10-14T07:08:45.290Z,14530,0,11,10,0,0,0,2.2,84890,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,Check the todoist _ I added a task in it with clearer instructions... 17,84992,2020-10-14T14:35:28.014Z,14530,0,21,20,1,0,0,54.2,84757,anon2742684877,anon1753543892,"Thanks for the ping @anon4218620973 @anon1753543892: I like to attend the event." 18,84993,2020-10-14T14:44:30.930Z,14530,0,21,20,1,0,0,24.2,84391,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,topical article in a germa newspaper: https://www.spiegel.de/familie/erschoepft-in-der-corona-krise-tipps-die-eltern-jetzt-helfen-koennen-a-7475a488-9292-4ce0-86d4-315a866dc944 19,85075,2020-10-15T13:25:37.804Z,14530,2,20,19,1,0,0,19.0,84391,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Ping @anon2559300400 and @anon2594087572, I have now assembled a rather big panel with mothers and fathers from multiple countries with a wide variety of experiences balancing childcare and remote/freelancing work and event starting up and running their own businesses. (including one co-working space with an emphasis on childcare). Since the panel is now bigger I would like to be very focused and well-thought-out with the questions I ask. Could you guys help me to choose and formulate questions with your ethnographic sensibility and experience from the SSNA? Also: Would you like to join?" 20,85078,2020-10-15T13:46:00.151Z,14530,0,19,18,1,0,0,23.8,85075,anon2559300400,anon1753543892,"I'll be working on NGI next on Monday! If you come up with some in the meantime, let us know and we can help you edit and choose them then, as we have a team meeting on Monday too. I don't think I can join on Wednesday due to a scheduling conflict but I'll let you know closer to time." 21,85116,2020-10-15T18:04:01.957Z,14530,0,21,20,2,0,0,29.2,85075,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"Here is a question about childcare and tech in today's reality: Has the pandemic caused you to quickly adopt new technology to keep your child occupied and happy while you are trying to work, or did you already have a strong technology-based home environment for your child already? I ask because my daughter did have to adopt a bunch of tech for her kids who like so many other kids can't spend all day in Zoom classrooms and my daughter, who already was working at home 3 days a week, has a high pressure job that requires her total attention when she is working. She bought Apple watches for her kids (age 8 and 7) and a now iMac for the family room. Good tools to have regardless, but big expense that had to happen quickly. Her kids are very physically active. One especially is not so bookish. But with school and playing outside with other kids so curtailed, he had not developed any quiet or study habit patterns outside of the routines developed by his school. Home time now dominates the day and he was frankly unprepared. Also with more than one kid there is the issue of sharing - ""hey it's my turn now. No fair!"" So the parent has to get up from working and sort it out." 22,85388,2020-10-20T09:52:57.373Z,14530,1,22,21,2,0,0,19.4,84391,anon294806887,anon1753543892,"**If you are interested and want to join the event comment here. Share your experience or a question regarding childcare for freeelnacers and remote workers:**
I am not a parent (yet!), but I am a perennial online worker and I would also like to learn anon2696444391 to better manage teams where people are parenting and working online. Not many speak openly about the possibilities and constraints that this offers them. And recently I witnessed a debate on facebook around this article about anon2696444391 in fact single parents might be discriminated against at the workplace by being expected to perform more. It was strange to see people jumping in and say 'hey, but I thought parents are discriminated - women in particular don't get more opportunities because they are considered to be not on the career path anymore'. From the different bubble we are in, things look so differently! It never ceases to amaze me. https://www.fastcompany.com/90564837/we-need-to-talk-about-the-bias-against-childfree-employees?partner=rss&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=rss+fastcompany&utm_content=rss&fbclid=IwAR2HPB8TCd7-0ijkByjbHWw1q8YJBAdpcDY8coLNss3LSOFtqin42d2d5Og

" 23,85390,2020-10-20T10:01:37.099Z,14530,1,21,20,1,0,0,44.2,85388,anon1753543892,anon294806887,"@anon294806887, this is an interesting and relevant point. To help parents should not devalue those who for what ever reason are non parents. Therefore it is important to work on the communication and understanding of ""improvements of the system are for everyone"". The oriciples of inclusive design are that if you explore and solve problems for extrem cases, you can generate solutions that are better for everyone. Let's look at this through an inclusive design lense." 24,85392,2020-10-20T10:03:14.829Z,14530,0,21,20,1,0,0,24.2,84391,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Example questions we would like to address tomorrow contributed by our ethnographer @anon2594087572: * Were you always working remotely? If not, when and anon2696444391 did you decide to work remotely? * Tell us about a moment you felt proud as a parent because your ability to work remotely helped you be present/provide for your child/ren. * Working from home saves you time and space, but it also means that everything is brought together. What kind of boundaries do you have to set with yourself? With your children/family? With your colleagues? * What trade-offs do you make as remote workers with children?" 25,85401,2020-10-20T10:46:49.086Z,14530,1,21,20,2,2,0,64.2,84391,anon192389820,anon1753543892,"Great and important topic! [quote=""anon3203746736, post:3, topic:14530""] if you have a kid at home and you work from home, anon2696444391 much time do you need to spend helping him, her or them occupy themselves in mutually satisfying ways and what technology do you use (try to) to accomplish it? [/quote] I think the amount of technology to it really depends on the age of the child. Speaking personally, our daughter is 2 years old, so she needs a lot of attention, it's almost impossible to leave her alone except for the odd 5-10 minutes she's entertaining herself. So during this pandemic when child care was closed, really only one person in the household can get meaningful work done. We made up for it by working around her schedule (early early morning and late nights), but it is challenging to say the least. Technology can help keep her occupied, and letting her watch videos on the ipad is something she loves and regularly asks for, but everytime I do it, I feel like a failed parent. If she was older, I think this feeling would not be so strong, but as she is still a toddler, we try to keep her away from screens as much as is possible. Today we're lucky that child care is back, but of course it's only a matter of time that the children will be sent to home quarantine for a few days or weeks. This is looming over everything, so we try to count our blessings now to be ready when that happens. I'd be very curious to hear anon2696444391 others with children in this age range use technology around their children. Am I perhaps too much of a luddite when I try to strictly limit screentime? Are there other solutions we have not thought about? [quote=""anon1753543892, post:23, topic:14530""] Therefore it is important to work on the communication and understanding of “improvements of the system are for everyone”. [/quote] Yes, thank you! I also think it's important to understand who is not part of this discussion, whether those with the most difficulties around child care will have the hardest time to join this conversation, and anon2696444391 best to represent those." 27,85423,2020-10-20T14:35:18.189Z,14530,1,19,18,1,0,0,28.8,84391,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Will send out the first wave of emails with the zoom link later this evening. A second wave follows tomorrow for late sign-ups 1h before the event." 28,85428,2020-10-20T15:46:47.307Z,14530,0,20,19,1,0,0,24.0,85423,anon294806887,anon1753543892,"got it, thanks !" 29,85431,2020-10-20T17:17:36.290Z,14530,0,20,19,2,0,0,89.0,84391,anon3760286857,anon1753543892,"**If you are interested and want to join the event comment here. Share your experience or a question regarding childcare for freelancers and remote workers:**
We are a couple of freelancers, during lockdown we split our days, so to have one of us available for our daughter (2 years old). We could afford to work half a day each, and also business was really slow during lockdown. It was really exhausting but we were able to never leave our daughter in front of a screen.

" 30,85437,2020-10-20T19:51:23.905Z,14530,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,84391,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,Ping @anon486911009 is this topic maybe also interesting for you? 31,85439,2020-10-20T20:28:08.704Z,14530,1,18,17,2,0,0,33.6,84391,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"Also, make sure your kids can go outside to play: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/14/greener-play-areas-boost-childrens-immune-systems-research-finds" 32,85440,2020-10-20T22:02:13.212Z,14530,0,19,18,4,0,0,53.8,84391,anon2360576655,anon1753543892,"**If you are interested and want to join the event comment here. Share your experience or a question regarding childcare for freelancers and remote workers:**
When one cannot safely rely on kindergarten, not even on relatives without putting them somewhat at risk, what else is left for parents besides taking turns (if they are lucky to still be together) and ...well, working less? I'll be curious to see what options we may be missing, and also to ask about the potential bad effects of this blurred work/life space and time on children.

" 34,85481,2020-10-21T12:58:06.285Z,14530,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,84391,anon371662603,anon1753543892,"Hi. I'm anon371662603, one of the panelists today. I'm happy to answer any questions!" 36,85484,2020-10-21T12:59:44.249Z,14530,2,17,16,1,0,0,33.4,84391,anon2677709080,anon1753543892,"**If you are interested and want to join the event comment here. Share your experience or a question regarding childcare for freelancers and remote workers:**
Even if I was in a recording booth with a big red light on, they would still come in the room to tell me something pointless.

" 37,85489,2020-10-21T14:08:35.976Z,14530,2,17,16,1,0,0,78.4,85484,anon371662603,anon2677709080,"I was on an important video call earlier, and they all burst in, and I gave the casual ""wave"" out, but they kept talking, so I gave a stronger wave, followed by a glare, then a mute and a ""GET OUT!!"". When I spoke to them after they were like ""but we needed to tell you... Cato didn't have a chocolate this morning""." 38,85490,2020-10-21T14:11:20.954Z,14530,1,17,16,2,0,0,18.4,84391,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Thank you everyone for todays conversation! there were some great and interesting point raised and lots of topics I would like to continue discussing here: 1. Examples for anon2696444391 to set and communicate boundaries @anon 2. The positive shift of it becoming more acceptable to have a visible familylive as a professional. @anon371662603 3. Technology for children and anon2696444391 it's role is a different one for this new generation with low entry barrier apps. ""why a developer decides against a tablet for his/her child"". And if there are other examples of positive applications or uses where you actually feel like your children are learning? And anon2696444391 much screen time do you consider appropriate? @anon371662603 4. Examples of including childcare in coworking @anon 5. How technology can support new living and childcare models? What is beeing developed already? What are those models? What happens if you let your imagination run wild? @anon will turn those soon in their own threads and ask some of you to comment on them :)" 39,85491,2020-10-21T14:15:16.382Z,14530,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,85490,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,A short summary of the discussion will follow in a few days 40,85492,2020-10-21T14:17:17.402Z,14530,0,16,15,2,0,0,13.2,85484,anon1753543892,anon2677709080,thank you for joining the conversation here. sadly it was too late to send you a link to the call. but please tell us more about your experiences with large red lights that are not accepted and I hope the summary will be interesting for you. 41,85493,2020-10-21T14:17:51.252Z,14530,1,16,15,1,0,0,43.2,85489,anon192389820,anon371662603,"Our kid is on 75% of the calls I have when she's home - at some point she just comes in, closed door or not (it doesn't lock). In some way, I'm glad to see people's reaction to it. It's a anon2488317424 bit like looking at anon2696444391 people treat the waiter or staff to understand whether this is a person I'd like to be working with. Of course there's also times I need to keep her out, e.g. when I'm giving a presentation or when I need to be super focused because I'm moderating. In those cases I actually block the door with something heavy.. :)" 42,85498,2020-10-21T18:00:52.588Z,14530,0,15,14,1,0,0,53.0,85493,anon3203746736,anon192389820,"> It’s a anon2488317424 bit like looking at anon2696444391 people treat the waiter or staff to understand whether this is a person I’d like to be working with. (Side note: has anyone made a personnel decision based on this? I have. I was in New York meeting the new owners of my SF Gate site and at lunch the guy i would most work with was outright mean, though with a toothy grin, to the nice woman serving us and I made the decision to myself that I did not want to work with that guy. And I didn't.)" 43,85740,2020-10-25T05:46:17.924Z,14530,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,84391,anon371662603,anon1753543892,Hey @anon1753543892 - somebody has just asked me if they could view a recording of it. Is one available? 44,85779,2020-10-26T10:23:32.393Z,14530,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,85740,anon1753543892,anon371662603,"Hello @anon371662603, we can not share the whole recording, but we will soon publish a writeup." 45,85866,2020-10-28T06:28:41.861Z,14530,1,15,14,4,2,0,58.0,85401,anon2360576655,anon192389820,"[quote=""anon192389820, post:25, topic:14530""] I’d be very curious to hear anon2696444391 others with children in this age range use technology around their children [/quote] Handheld devices are a big no for me. It very seldom happens, and it's never me giving it to him because I'd rather he does **anything else** but that. Our 2.5yo is allowed 30 minutes of cartoons, on the big TV, and even that stops if he stands too near the screen. I think being a *luddite* is, in this case, the right thing for small kids. We are lucky that he is very active and stops caring about videos after a while anyway, and that he likes puzzles a lot so that's a better alternative for self-entertainment. It is tricky though, because of the examples we set: with remote work, and myself being *possibly* mildly addicted to the internet, we tend to spend a lot of time on screens, and he sees that. [quote=""anon3203746736, post:31, topic:14530""] Also, make sure your kids can go outside to play [/quote] And this is when *I really miss* living in a small village surrounded by hills, woods, and the Tuscan countryside... Outside we both are much more peaceful, and easy access to nature really makes me want to stay outside as much as possible. Yerevan doesn't fit that bill I'm afraid." 46,85908,2020-10-28T14:34:29.862Z,14530,1,15,14,1,1,0,28.0,85866,anon192389820,anon2360576655,"[quote=""anon2360576655, post:45, topic:14530""] It is tricky though, because of the examples we set: with remote work, and myself being *possibly* mildly addicted to the internet, we tend to spend a lot of time on screens, and he sees that. [/quote] That's really a worry for me too.. especially because she does not understand what we do but only that we are looking at a screen (Just thinking of things like setting a timer while I'm cooking or adding something to a calendar). I try to think of it in a similar way to other aspects of life, that it's more important to model a behavior (whether it's anon2696444391 much tech to use, or what kind of food we eat, or anon2696444391 we treat others around us) than to police (seemingly arbitrary) ""rules""." 47,85911,2020-10-28T16:55:45.730Z,14530,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,85908,anon3203746736,anon192389820,"I have seen toddlers go into an iPhone, select the photo app, then scroll through the photos by correctly swiping - before they could even talk." 48,85983,2020-10-29T18:52:03.214Z,14530,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,85489,anon2742684877,anon371662603,Thanks for sharing your experience. It's the same scenario in my house. 49,85984,2020-10-29T18:58:29.788Z,14530,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,84391,anon2742684877,anon1753543892,"A couple of weeks ago, I engaged with someone on twitter who raised the issue of employer's perspective on parents as humans. The question was: **Do employers have now a different view of combining parenting and working?** We were discussing if the exposure to the ""parenting side"" of an employee made companies (managers, HR etc) gain a deeper understanding of the struggles and therefore adopt a more parent-friendly approach. What do you think?" 50,85987,2020-10-29T21:02:04.088Z,14530,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,85984,anon1753543892,anon2742684877,@anon371662603 certainly brought up this point during the event. The existence of children around a professional existence seems to get more accepted. (I am still working on the event summary.) 51,86016,2020-10-30T15:45:47.728Z,14530,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,85987,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"The burden is of course all the greater for the working parent who still has to deliver the work, and on time." 52,86044,2020-10-31T08:43:45.957Z,14530,1,13,12,1,0,0,57.6,86016,anon486911009,anon3203746736,"During the lockdown i was questioning myself of a possible paradigm to analyse the smart working condition while parenting. I converted a whole room to a kind of Montessori lab with paper, glue, fabric, wood sticks, leaves, etc.. for my daughter and put some limits to smartwork shift in order to combine the two situations. Hope this schema helps the discussion with this anon2488317424 game.. Where would you set yourself and your child according to different age and kind of work? " 53,86129,2020-11-02T18:23:52.858Z,14530,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,86044,anon3203746736,anon486911009,My daughter would be dead center. Luckily for them the kids have outdoor space so they can run around some. Being in an apartment must be tough. 54,88601,2020-12-08T09:30:23.833Z,14530,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,84391,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Our next AMA is anon2373157426 relavnt to this topic: # On the 9th of December 18:30 to 19:30 psychologist Erik Bohjort joins for an AMA. * Would you wish you could change your own behaviour sometimes? * Are you wondering anon2696444391 much technology is actually ok for your children, and if and anon2696444391 they can learn with digital tools? * Are you developing an app, website, project to change and improve the world, and want to know anon2696444391 to best influence behaviour or anon2696444391 to nudge? * Do you have your own insights and/or issues (2020 has been hard on everyone...) you just really would like to discuss with a psychologist? ## Then you are in luck! Erik (@anon His background also includes experience as the Head of Research at Gimi AB (an educational FinTech application to teach financial literacy to children) and as a Psychologist at Akademiska Sjukhuset in the Neuropsychiatric Unit. # **His research explores topics such as:** ### Behaviour change, Digital education, Behavioural insights, Nudging, Psychology # *For one hour he will be available to answer all of your questions and engage in discussions, conversations and maybe even a bit of therapy with you.* # [Register here](https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/14917) to get a reminder before the event and join the AMA chat. # The live chat will happen here, where Erik personally introduced himself: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/i-m-erik-bohjort-psychologist-nudger-and-digital-behaviour-change-enthusiast-ask-me-anything-about-behaviour-psychology-and-tech/15076" 55,93608,2021-03-24T16:27:09.671Z,14530,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,84391,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"To everyone who had joined this session last year: Our ethnographer team has launched a question about anon2696444391 employers deal with applicants and the effects of that on our perception of time, work and self-worth. Your insights and opinions on that would be very welcome! https://anon1577251828.eu/t/have-you-ever-been-led-on-or-ghosted-by-a-prospective-employer/15571" 1,61044,2019-10-09T17:29:28.322Z,11082,0,6,5,9,0,0,46.2,61044,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Zenna and Noah discuss his philosophy of ""practical idealism"" and anon2696444391 it pertains to AI and other tech policy." 2,61045,2019-10-09T17:29:35.086Z,11082,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,61044,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Text of the audio conversation with Zenna Fiscanon4205961763 and Noah Schoeppl Recorded September 2019 for Edgeryders and NGI Forward Zenna: Welcome to the first episode of the Edgeryders podcast with Zenna or anon2682865457 for ""human centered internet."" Today, we are interviewing Noah Schoeppl. And the conversation will be exploring Noah's visions and thoughts of a utopian internet, as well as some of Noah's history. We've been talking anon2373157426 a bit ahead of time. And we recently got introduced each other. And it was kinda with a shebang and a lot of checkboxes. To give it a round about exploration of what you've explored previously, is it legal infrastructures mixed with AI and ethical complications that come thereof? And you've explored ethical hacking, and working with radically open security, as well as psychology and programming and many more it seems like, and now you're entering a master's program at Oxford? in like, two weeks? Yeah. To start off, if we if we go about it from a chronological order, where would that lead us to start? Noah: I'm Noah. And I think my journey started as a politically aware and interested human being anon2373157426 young, I was 12 or so when I really someanon2696444391 caught fire for a topic that now is actually all over the world and more in the headlines, but back then was not so much. And it's really just like, anon2696444391 can we get to a world with hundred percent renewable energy as fast as possible. And that was my utopia, my first political utopia, that that really inspired me and got me going. And I came from a small town in southern Germany, and I started to like, travel to different places, try to like, you know, protests and all these things. This in touch with research institutions, and political institutions and things like all these things. And then there came a second phase at some point, because I realized, well, someanon2696444391 in the end, in all these discussions that I had with politicians and lobbyists and activists, in the end, you know, like, we can all discuss this, and anon2696444391, what's that there's an imperative anon2696444391 we need to change our world, due to the ecological boundaries of our world. But in the end, still, that the economic argument wins someanon2696444391. It always does in the political arena, or tends to, and I was really frustrated by that. And so it was like, Well, if the economic argument wins, maybe I should learn better anon2696444391 it works. And I really got into business ethics, and it was like back then, anon2696444391 can we reimagine anon2696444391 the economy and anon2696444391 businesses work, because to challenge that paradigm off that it's only about money making, and it's much more about human striving and the common good. And these are the contributions that companies should aim for. So from there on, I realized once we drive companies and what really shapes them, but companies also can be really slow, or they can become really slow to develop there as well. The single force that right now is changing companies in the economy most is technology. And so if we get this one, right, if we can get the technological technology to change, then that's also a really good opportunity to just change anon2696444391 our economy works, and anon2696444391 our society works for the better. So like technology is what's right now is the moving pieces that right now are, are shaping new things, and we have the opportunity to co-shape, our generation has to come opportunity to co-shape these technological changes. And I think that's opportunity I want to take so that we can use the technology together with our human insights and intuitions and values to make a more humane society and economy. Zenna: So I'm, I'm curious. Now, we've talked a anon2488317424 bit about this before about the technology being power. And we also talked about anon2696444391 Oxford was Hogwarts. And coders are the wizards up today, Framing it in that perspective, is an egalitarian world something worth fighting for? And if it is, what is technology and the knowledge thereof, what place does that have? Noah: I think, like generally I find, it can turn philosophy very appealing, particular, to the very rough like John Rawls idea that inequality, that the generally there should be, first of all, in terms of freedoms, they should be equal, and everybody should have some basic civil liberties. And then when we look at material conditions, that to be very rough again, the different principle is that according to John Rawls is that an unequal division of resources is only then legitimate, if it actually benefits those that are least well off. So when when an unequal distribution can meet that, for example, that overall, there's just much more resources, including for the for the less than the least, will have to go around. And I think, right now we're definitely at a point I would say, where we don't justify our current system is not justified by that, by that standard, in the sense that we use technology often not centered on the most vulnerable people in our communities and societies very much on emerging goals that already happened to hold. Also Silicon Valley culture, even if it purports to claim the world, to save the world, really is the end, although startups gets bought up by by venture capitalists that already are basically, that then again are owned by the ones that already currently own the world. Self-feeding. Exactly. And again, I find it sad that all this beautiful technology that could be built into really meaningful things in the end, like I mean, nobody says that all the social media companies we have now or all those giants needed to go to the direction they had to it was just that's the society in which technology arrived was one in which these kinds of innovations were immediately put into, under profit, maximizing pressure. Zenna: And copyright? Noah: And copyrights is also one part of it. Yes, I could imagine very different ways of arriving there. But then again, I think my my philosophy that I developed around this is kind of really being willing to think, very radical, very big about anon2696444391 things could be different, but then really starting from where we are right now. So I really don't like just complaining about anon2696444391 things should be very different. And I gotta do fix. And it's also when I yeah, I mean, I didn't like only talking about business ethics, but I also got into social entrepreneurship and founded companies myself and try to try to not just talk about anon2696444391 business should be run differently, but I tried to do it. And it's hard. Zenna: just as a tidbit, what's goal that you found from your time in there, and I don't mean, goals as in capitalist values, but as in, what did you find that you brought with you on your new journey? Noah: I think generally, the, the methodologies of business can often be very useful if they are used to different ends. So like, basically, the idea of one Europe is to find a social business, to use business means for social ends to solve really social problems, and not for the kind of problems they've been conventionally associated with. But that's not an original thought. So even though I want to credit it, but I think one more additional thought that I had was kind of like that it really helped me to develop my own philosophy that I call ***pragmatic idealism***. At this point, I can summarize in three models, and first kind of is hope without critical thinking, is just naivety, but critical thinking without hope is just cynicism. And then the second idea is confidence without humility, is just arrogance. But then humility, without confidence, is sheepishness. Zenna: And that's your own personal philosophy for anon2696444391 you see yourself throughout the world? Noah: More people that inspired us include Maria Popova, Bulgarian writer, but also many others. And then like the last sentence kind of is more like the synthesis of it all I would say, which is pragmatism without idealism is just opportunism. But idealism without pragmatism is just wishful thinking. So that's kind of my, that's my philosophy. That kind of is the goal, I would say, I found that pragmatism and idealism need to work together. Yeah, the, I think, especially like, the first two are probably more inspired by other people. Pragmatism and idealism, they live in the space between the two. And so really have ambitious goals, but also be really pragmatic, where you start with it. Zenna: if we go back to the origin of the ambitious goals, so to speak, if you were to start sketching out the image of what those ambitious goals for, let's say, if you want to reshape the internet, plural, What would that look like for you? Noah: There can like I don't have like one overarching but I think I have several again, utopias for this, or different utopian visions. I took an international relations course in my undergrad degree in Amsterdam and social sciences and I was thinking about well, anon2696444391 does international relations in global politics fit into cyberspace that we increasingly live in, and the internet and, and just writing and trying to combine this global politics theories with these new technologies, and then I just for some reason, wrote these words like cyber peace and cyber war. And I just noticed that my computer some enough reason underlined cyber peace as like an unknown word, but CYBER WARS recommend. And then it actually was, and I looked up in different word processing programs, none of the new cyber peace, but all the new cyber war, I looked up in different almond dictionaries and make not all of the new cyber cyber war, but very few use cyber peace. And so it was just like, Well, that's interesting, the vocabulary that we have in the conceptual space of the internet, is we conceptualize it as war, we don't even know anon2696444391 to talk about it in terms of peace, because we don't have a word for it. And just that obvious asymmetry that it someanon2696444391 needs to be a very aggressive and violent place, apparently out there. And this is the language we use. That kind of made me think there's some utopia missing. And they're starting to develop that a bit more in this economic context, initially, where and for example, what I find interesting is, when you look at cyber peace, maybe we look at peace in the real world first. And like there were always like ideas of world peace, they've always existed, but someanon2696444391 we've not achieved it yet. So just one very common idea of world peace was always Immanual Kant, philosopher, who, in 1795, wrote an essay called perpetual peace, for some reason, the original, they basically purported that just the simple hypothesis kind of is the states with a republican constitutions of democracies, basically, they should all just guarantee each other security. And when they do that, then we could have an ever expanding unit of peace, because nobody would ever attempt to attack such a block of countries. And we could have an ever expanding unit of peace. Zenna One thing that's been discussed recently, especially in the realms of internet and internet infrastructures, is the issue of centralization. In that kind of utopian image of a block of peace, one can say a block of Empire, which would then set the frame for the rest of the world. Noah Absolutely agree. And like, I think it's really interesting that like, actually back then, again, I don't want to get too much into wrap Kant up. He said, We don't need a centralized contract or institution for this. We don't need a treaty for this, this would just emerge out of enlightenment, basically, enlightened actions of, of individuals and countries, again, 18th century philosophy maybe doesn't completely extend the internet. But I think there are some interesting things when you actually apply it. And again, because the internet is a very different beast. If you look at the long term trends, again, we have not achieved real peace. But overall, we live in a more peaceful world than ever like than ever before. In less than two years, we did have a lot of progress. And I think we should continue to have that progress. Because right now, when we speak about the internet, we just speak a lot about, like, there's a lot of outs, and so insecure and get cybercrime and a cyber war between the countries and all that. And I think that what we really should aim for is really to have this this utopian vision and anon2696444391 I think that can actually happen in cyberspace, much more than in real world, think cyberspace is actually could be a much more peaceful place, then then, then the world we live in physically. And that is because of the different dynamics of security in the cyberspace. It's very asymmetric. And it's very different from other security, thinking of like 20th century Cold War thinking, which often has been the only dominant security paradigm has been applied the internet, because the common story is internet you just, like you don't know who's your attacker, basically, it's very difficult to do attribution of attackers. So you just want to develop your own offensive capability and hack everyone. And you can just do it in the face with us I've been doing in Russia, I've been doing in China for doing, many other countries aspire to do. And there's also again, like the superpowers that are emerging, it's basically trying to copy this old patterns into this new world. And I don't think, first of all, I don't think that's anon2696444391 it's going to work out. And first of all, don't think it's desirable, and it doesn't work that way. And that's because because of this asymmetry and the internet, that you don't know who your attacker really is, attribution is very difficult. So you can't retaliate, just to keep because you have offensive capabilities, right? Because you have cyber weapons, because you have the vulnerabilities that you know about, exploits that you can enter into other systems. Just because you can attack someone doesn't mean that they want to attack you, because you again, the offensive capability you have is not a deterrence against somebody else's attack, which in the physical world is very different. If you have a nuclear bomb, you know, the other person is not going to bump you so much because you can bomb them back. This logic of, of Cold War in that sense doesn't work anymore in the internet. A second reason for that is basically you can destroy somebody else's offensive capability by building up your own defenses. So if you do really good, actually security for yourself, and if you do security research, and you find vulnerabilities and you find zero days, then you can basically destroy the offensive capabilities of others because they rely on these vulnerabilities. And so, you know, if I have a nuclear bomb, just because you build some protection doesn't mean I don't have a nuclear bomb. But if I have a zero day, which is basically an exploit to which no fixes there yet, and you close that, that gap, that I don't have a bomb anymore, I don't have a weapon anymore. So basically, you can take away somebody else's offensive capability by building good defenses. I think these dynamics have not been fully understood by policymakers. Zenna: Is that something you would call sign of peace? You can build up defenses and by having a safety rather than offensive? Noah: Yeah, I think like that, when my vision for several pieces that states should end and everything out everybody else, I don't think security must always be so state-centric, my vision for cyberpeace is that, basically everybody in a certain union, and it doesn't have to be a contractual union, works towards building collective defenses. So basically, these are two very basic things. zero day reporting, a global norm for zero day reporting, that's countries that join a certain even even even just an idea that they would never did follow this idea can start to report zero days and never include and never improve not only their security, but security of everybody else. And again, like many people might say that sounds so super idealistic. And I don't think it is, I think it is very pragmatic reasons to do so. Because if you're part of this defensive union, then you can really you will be much safer than if you're if you don't share any of you zero days, and you twist try to get keep and build your own offensive capabilities for all the reasons that I've named, because on offensive capabilities can be destroyed by enemies, and because of having offensive capability is not a deterrent against attacks. Zenna: So if you have a union, there must be something that's in it for them, there's the Is that what you imagine, for a utopian internet? Noah: Generally, again, I would apply this kind of Kantian idea that in the end, we want to live on a peaceful planet or in a peaceful cyberspace. My vision is that we, in the end have a safe space in the internet and that place in that sense that we start by creating small safe spaces, and they start expanding until in the end, hopefully they cover I always think that will be like, there will always be cyber attacks. But we can minimize the impact that we can increase our the integrity of our of everybody's experience in the internet by for example, having a global norm for zero day reporting. And I find what I like about the global norm for zero day reporting is it encourages everyone to contribute to everyone's security, because you can't just close the zero day vulnerability for yourself, you do it for everyone. And at the same time, the only them that basically you create is the people that don't want to work together to make everyone's experience safer. And the them is basically the people that want to keep the exploits to, for example, I don't know, whether it is NSA hackers, or whether this malicious Russian hackers or whatever, whatever groups, only the people that kind of want to be able to really attack other people systems are then kind of that that will be against, I think the what would I like with this is it's not so much that I have a very clear institutional setup, anon2696444391 this would work, because obviously, it's very difficult to control these kind of things. Exactly. So I don't it's not fully developed. But I think it's kind of like my point is more like this narrative shift from we talked about a place where there's a lot of war happening, cyber war, to a place where cyber peace is possible, and where we should make sense of peace, not cyber law or cyber war. Zenna: Whose responsibility is it to make this shift happen? Noah: I think in the end, it's everyone's, but I think, if I should put my my my hope on, for example, individual institutions, I think institutions that are very well set to do this, or where I have realistic hope for this is the European Union. So if the European Union were to start such a project, where it say, okay, we, as a group of countries decided we want to start a norm, that what everyone ought to report zero days, because it's better for everyone to do that. I think that could be very powerful. And I know that the current administration, for example, in the US, which obviously controls the most powerful capability there is not going to willing to do that. But I hope that that could change given also the large trajectory of history, I hope that it is possible. Also for other countries, I hope that they that in the same way that we didn't think it seemed impossible to ever start a counter proliferation movement in the nuclear age. And it seems we will for eternity, always just create more bombs to kill each other. We now actually live a world where there's still too many bombs, but at least less than 50 years ago. And in the same way, I have a hope that in 50 years, I know it's a long shot. And it's not going to happen overnight. And right now, all the talks on your end level are basically non existent on this topic. So it's I really hope that we could live in a world where we have less, not more attacks and more integrity of everybody's devices. Zenna: You've been working a bit with AI and machine learning, and specifically on the focus of whether it's ethical, if placed in a legal system. Do you want to expand on that? Noah: Yeah, of course. So I think kind of like that was my work that I started, or did two years ago that I kind of talked about this narrative shift to cyber peace. And what I didn't like about it is that it was apart from that it was like state centric, and that there were many practical problems with it and very long shot, it was still defensive, it was still like it's talking about my utopia is security or safety, which is still something like the absence of violence. That's the problem with peace. Also, you know, it's not medicine super positive, it's only that bad things are not there. And so I was like, I want something more positive than that. And and that's then where I got also more into this AI space. And because I think they're really there is opportunity to positively shape human thriving in many ways. And to unlock this potential that we need to avoid many risks that are often also discussed and that are very real. And the as I said, also, I wonder, and they I feel I don't have this super clean utopia, because someanon2696444391 every utopia that involves machines that can do more than we do, in some sense, apparently ends up being a dystopia sometimes. And so we have to still do a lot of work on which utopia, we actually want out there. Zenna: In your utopia, does AI exist? Noah: In my utopia. Again, I'm a pragmatic idealist. So my someanon2696444391 my ideals are also based on my pragmatism. And I think there is not a world possible. Like we cannot, I don't know if you heard about the unabomber, who's like a, like a guy who started basically bombing scientists, because he believed that the progress of science and technology would destroy human society. And given that I don't think that's a viable path that we will have, that we will basically live with less technology, then the question is, anon2696444391 can we shape the current trends and the current technologies that are rising to human benefit? And also maybe sometimes also, anon2696444391 can we consciously decide not to use them? Yeah, we can sometimes do that. But overall, I'm convinced that we will get machines that will be better than humans at many tasks that currently only humans can do. Given that that's going to come, the question is, anon2696444391 do we want to do that? I think their biggest problem are, exactly about human centrism. So anon2696444391 can we make sure that they align with our values and their ? Like that's a long term perspective, I would say all this question, which is kind of like AI governance questions that says when, for example, pioneered by Nick Bostrom, the whole ideas of what do we do when general AI actually is smarter than humans? I think these are super valuable questions to do with and to research. But then there's also the short term questions, and that's what we're after dealing with these important questions of, if we already today have for example, a system that makes legal decisions, for example, in an administration and that public administration, what laws do we want to be imbued into that? Do we think it's just fine if there's some human mandate and humans and some democratically elected institution decides now we want this to be done by an AI? Or do we also think there needs to be some outputs that need to be in some material sense fair, as it just if it's if it's cheaper and faster do we just accept it? Or do we also want to actually be able to understand the process to be accessible for humans, because then many advanced machine learning programs, currently, they're black boxes for us, so we can't really understand them. And the other question is, well, if it's trained on any human data, human centric data, also in that sense, then it's going to take human vices with it, and it could even aggregate them and exaggerate them. And so yeah, there's a lot of open questions, and I don't really have full answers to those yet. But my utopia is just I can only explain it in very abstract terms at this point, because there's a lot of research and thinking and testing and acting to be done on this field. But right now, it's to reap the benefits to avoid the risks, and to make sure that we humanize the technology that we live with, in the sense that in the sense that we really challenge also what it means to be human for ourselves, because I don't think we know right now what it means to be human. And if we first figure out like, or if we figure out what it means to be human, then we can also tell when we want technology to do to help us to thrive. Zenna: Thank you so much for forth your thoughts. I'm that feeling that we will hear more from you. Noah: Well, thank you very much for giving me this space. And I'm very grateful for your time and for your work." 1,91202,2021-02-05T13:40:04.462Z,15354,0,28,27,1699,0,0,8500.6,91202,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![1|690x388](upload://iBzIuy1bzJ8BgfWoDJBk3fyADsS.png) **For over ten years, we have been hearing that data have become a key resource, “the new oil”.** In combination with the Internet as a general delivery infrastructure and new data processing techniques, like machine learning, they power new services. Some of these are potentially benign (recommendation algorithms), others decidedly creepy (facial recognition); both types are changing our societies. **[Estimates circulated in 2019](https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/building-data-economy-brochure) put at over 1 trillion Euro the projected value of the data economy in the EU.** Civic-minded technologists have argued that many important datasets, especially those produced by the public sector or funded by taxpayers, should become public goods, accessible to all without restriction. Open, machine-readable public information would not only benefit the economy, but improve transparency and strengthen democracy. Policy makers, at least in Europe, heard the call; the EU Public Sector Information Directive dates back to 2003, and [got an overhaul as the Open Data Directive in 2019](https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/public-sector-information-psi-directive-open-data-directive). It looks like all stakeholders agree on the strategic importance of open data as a common societal resource. And yet, after all this time, **when the COVID-19 crisis erupted in early 2020, the open data pipelines burst at the seams. In many countries, it has been surprisingly difficult for researchers, journalists and citizens to access even basic data on anon2696444391 the pandemic played out.** And this happens at a time when authorities are making controversial decisions to limit the freedoms of citizens – decisions that, naturally, citizens would like to better understand. * Why, after all this time and lofty rhetoric, are we so bad at basic open data? * Is it a capacity problem, with public servants working out of Excel sheets rather than with robust data delivery pipelines? * Is it the temptation of using strategically the information on COVID-19, that struggling politicians simply cannot resist? Or what else? # ![Covid data AMA (4)|690x388](upload://pqjbCy4pb1CmpLpBB6zhjsrkRJM.gif) *We are Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso, and we care about the issue. Andrea is a co-founder of Italian civic tech NGO OnData. OnData launched [a petition](https://datibenecomune.it/) to prime minister Giuseppe Conte to release all epidemiological data as open data, and to open the algorithms that convert those data to risk indicators (like Rt) that the authorities base their policy decisions on. To date, the petition has 46,000 signatories, including 162 organizations. Meanwhile, Giorgia, formerly with the Italian government agency for the digital society, is involved in an epic struggle for the openness of the data in Italy.* ## Join us and others on March 2nd at 18:30 CET to AMA about the openness of covid data! #
*What is an AMA and anon2696444391 does it work?* AMA, or Ask Me Anything, is an [interviewing format ](https://mashable.com/2013/03/25/reddit-ama-tips/?europe=true) popularised via Reddit. In short, you ask the features ""expert"" questions, and they answer them live for an hour. *How does it work?* Anyone is welcome to post questions/comments below. On the anouced date, the featured speaker(s) come back to this thread to start answering questions they find interesting. They will do their best to reply to as many questions as possible, but please note that not all questions/comments will be addressed. *Who can join?* Anyone! As the conversations get going during the hour, you will see multiple threads naturally emerging. There is an open invitation for everyone to contribute–please feel free to reach out to other community members, either on the thread or via DM, to continue the discussion! # Register here to get a reminder and the link resend an hour before the event: https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/15357" 2,92578,2021-03-02T16:03:03.107Z,15354,0,13,12,0,0,0,2.6,91202,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,18 posts were merged into an existing topic: [AMA on COVID-data planning - WIP](/t/ama-on-covid-data-planning-wip/15310/11) 3,91616,2021-02-11T16:18:12.757Z,15354,0,19,18,1,0,0,8.8,91202,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 4,91755,2021-02-15T19:05:17.482Z,15354,2,19,18,1,0,0,18.8,91202,anon440786980,anon1753543892,"**What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:**


What do you think will be the next big topic to focus on and to demand open data after the Pandemic crisis?" 5,91757,2021-02-15T19:27:15.321Z,15354,2,20,19,1,0,0,34.0,91202,anon2273676498,anon1753543892,"**What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:**
Thinking in terms of baby steps, which would be the first 3-4 steps to move forward?

" 6,91771,2021-02-15T23:49:47.680Z,15354,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,91202,anon610774528,anon1753543892,**What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:**


7,91799,2021-02-16T11:03:54.263Z,15354,2,17,16,104,0,0,548.4,91202,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,"My question to @anon3269455027 and Andrea Borruso refers to an episode of last year, that we learned about recently. A German magazine called Welt am Sonntag got hold of intense correspondence between Germany's interior ministry and scientists at the Robert Koch Institute. In these emails, state secretary Markus Kerber instructed researchers to provide a model predicting some kind of Coronapocalypse, so as to scare Germans into accepting lockdown ([source, French](https://www.francesoir.fr/politique-monde/allemagne-le-ministere-de-linterieur-influence-des-scientifiques-pour-justifier-les)). Researchers complied. In only 4 days, they developed a report with a worst case scenario sanon2696444391ing that over a million Germans could die of COVID. It was declared secret, but then ""distributed via various media"" in the following days. In the wake of these revelations, Kerber had to appear before a Bundestag commission, where he declared that his boss, interior minister Horst Seehofer, had greenlighted the operation ([source, German](http://www.finanztreff.de/news/corona-szenarien-fuer-seehofer-kerber-bat-minister-um-erlaubnis/23469073)). Seehofer has not resigned, and is now busy closing Germany's borders. This story gives three hints, on which I would like your opinion. First: *there is a structural tendency of governments towards a strategic use of information*. Open data and open modelling limit such use, so that is an obstacle to their adoption. Second: *there is an issue with the independence of the institutions whose job is to gather, publish and use the data*. Science should be independent, but can the Koch Institute really annoy the all-powerful federal minister? Here I see a role for civil society, and organizations such as Andrea's own [Ondata](https://ondata.it). And third: *publicly accessible data can help in building public trust* at a time when even governments manufacture fake news (though, in Seehofer's defense, his intentions might have been good). But, de facto, this does not seem to be working. We have (some) data, but trust is super low. In Belgium anti-vaxxers run rampant. What, in your opinion, is going on?" 8,91982,2021-02-18T12:10:21.743Z,15354,2,16,15,1,0,0,18.2,91202,anon422361926,anon1753543892,**What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:**
- To what extent keeping the Covid data closed is hampering the fight against the pandemic

9,91987,2021-02-18T14:48:07.541Z,15354,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,91202,anon3960477306,anon1753543892,**What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:**


10,92006,2021-02-19T06:49:21.525Z,15354,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,91202,anon2712234861,anon1753543892,**What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:**


24,92095,2021-02-20T01:38:32.075Z,15354,3,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,91202,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"**What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:**
I have read your petition and I followed the link to Integrated COVID-19 Surveillance of the Istituto Superiore di Sanità. The ""open data"" they offer sanon2696444391s cases by date and cases by region. Is what you are demanding the right to see the raw data that creates those totals? How personal is that data if it is disaggregated?

" 29,92151,2021-02-22T11:06:04.864Z,15354,2,15,14,2,0,0,23.0,91202,anon1845230842,anon1753543892,"**What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:**
What's thing number one you would do (with the data, but not only) if Italian COVID data actually became open and accessible to everyone?

" 31,92285,2021-02-24T09:57:05.865Z,15354,1,13,12,66,0,0,332.6,91202,anon198766849,anon1753543892,"Thanks, this looks really interesting! **What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:** 1. What kinds of public sector/COVID data should generally NOT be made accessible and why? 2. How do you reconcile the desire for open data with individual rights, such as privacy (e.g. some ostensibly ""non-personal"" data can be de-anonymised or aggregate data used to discriminate against groups)? 3. If you already hold large data sets and have significant resources, you're better-placed to derive additional value from new data. Does open data run the risk of exacerbating centralisation in the digital economy? Are there any progressive or differential approaches to public sector data sharing that can address this imbalance?" 32,92515,2021-03-01T16:04:22.225Z,15354,1,13,12,131,0,0,707.6,91202,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,"I have a second question, that concerns data on the COVID apps for tracing. Back in the spring of 2020 there was a lot of attention, with most major governments launching their own apps: and a lively debate on whether those apps would work, and whether their benefits were worth the risks to privacy. We [also participated in that debate](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-results-of-the-community-listening-post-on-risks-for-freedom-in-the-wake-of-covid-19/13183). People in this community tended to see the emphasis on apps as a sort of technological hail Mary, and were cautious about the usefulness of the apps in *this* pandemic, though more upbeat about the next one. [quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13183""] One participant had this to offer: > I am currently involved with a group building a contact tracing app. But I am uneasy, actually thank you for giving voice to my anxieties. I do not see my colleagues discussing the use cases for this tech. I do not see them asking themselves if their solution is going to be effective. I do not see them discussing failure modes of the technologies. Almost everybody is hiding their head in the sand about the consequences of these solutions, intended or not. [/quote] Almost a year later, we are left wondering about the effects of those effort. At least, we should have ample grounds for an evaluation. But we are left wondering: the Italian one [has been criticized](https://www.ilpost.it/2021/02/18/immuni-app-draghi/); so, apparently was the German one. There are more positive analyses for Switzerland ([paper](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33327003/), paywalled) and, especially, the UK, where it is estimated that every patient who tested positive and agreed to notifying her condition via the app resulted in 1-2 averted infections ([paper](https://github.com/BDI-pathogens/covid-19_instant_tracing/blob/master/Epidemiological_Impact_of_the_NHS_COVID_19_App_Public_Release_V1.pdf)). In all this, the Italian app has the merit of maintaining [a repo of open data on GitHub](https://github.com/immuni-app/immuni-dashboard-data). The English/Welsh NHS COVID-19 app also has [a page of downloadable data](https://faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01367), although I cannot find a license. But it is no so for the Scottish and Northern Irish versions of the app. One of the saddest cases might be that of Belgium, where I live: no official data at all. A recent working paper by U Gent had to resort to an online survey. Only 2.2% of respondents had ever received a notification of exposure from the app ([paper](https://biblio.ugent.be/publication/8696152)). What do you make of this situation? Why are these data so difficult to obtain? And who do you think is publishing them? Is it the companies who maintain the software (that seems the case, as I cannot find the data from the app on the [Italian government's open data portal](https://dati.gov.it/view-dataset?Cerca=immuni), they appear to be only on GitHub)? Is it the public health administrations? Update: * [French data](https://www.data.gouv.fr/fr/datasets/metriques-dutilisation-de-lapplication-tousanticovid/) * [Swiss data](https://www.europeandataportal.eu/data/datasets/swisscovid-app-monitoring-bundesamt-fur-statistik-bfs?locale=en) * [England-and-Wales data](https://faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01367) (not sure these are open, cannot find the license)." 33,92576,2021-03-02T14:58:12.216Z,15354,3,12,11,1,0,0,52.4,91202,anon1537101702,anon1753543892,"I think one of the main problems about the resistance against governments and health authorities collecting this data via the apps is that the duration of data aggregation is unclear, so is the temporality of the pandemic. This might only be the start of an era where such digital certifications, facilitated by AI tech, will be issued with less and less concern for privacy of individuals. We already know anon2696444391 the pandemic is creating extra vulnerabilities for people on the move, border regimes, the class-based inequalities etc. There is now the strong debate about the vaccination certificates and whether these should be only in paper form or also a digitized version that talks to the tracking app data. Many concerns regarding travel rights, right to not be vaccinated...The reason for data openness not being there yet is also due to the bleak approach regarding EU policies as well as national policies on this. The whole thing includes multi-layered approach surrounded by many actors; even the health authorities and their relation to state governments as well as EU governance is a problematic issue in the macro level. The micro and meso levels require more nuances and include insider wars at the moment." 34,92583,2021-03-02T17:22:13.205Z,15354,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,91755,anon3269455027,anon440786980,"We definitely need to focus on the quality of the data and on sustainable processes! Current, at least in my country, we are still struggling for this and results sanon2696444391 that. In addition, from my point of view there is a serious problem for health data and their degree of openness. It is true that it is not an easy domain because it is important to combine openness and privacy. Probably I would invest on this. It is so much important to find the right balance and privacy cannot be an obstacle; rather a right to be always preserved while keeping open the overall knowledge." 35,92585,2021-03-02T17:24:35.914Z,15354,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,91202,anon3293146268,anon1753543892,"**I will join the live chat on March 2nd, 18:30 CET:**


" 36,92586,2021-03-02T17:27:37.268Z,15354,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,92585,anon3379761435,anon3293146268,"Hey @anon3293146268, you made it! Welcome!" 37,92587,2021-03-02T17:27:57.982Z,15354,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,91757,anon3269455027,anon2273676498,"Not sure they are baby at all :-) but I am sure they are necessary and we need to really start from these: 1) start training civil servants and raise the awareness in even larger number of communities. We need to change the mindset: ""the data is mine and I decide anon2696444391 and when to open or share it"" is something OLD that prevents us to move forward. It is no longer acceptable in the Internet, Web and Social and AI era. We need to start slowly to change the way things are done; therefore point 2) 2) revise processes. Take one important case with a big impact and work on the overall process and governance in order to identify blocking elements and to let open data be by design part of the process. Process will become sustainable, data will become probably of high quality and an impact, I am sure will sanon2696444391 up! 3) start reasoning in terms of community. Public/private/research institutions and communities with their organisations should start work TOGETHER and not in silos! Promote a greater collaboration among these actors. It is not necessarily bad if it is private :)" 38,92588,2021-03-02T17:28:27.016Z,15354,1,10,9,1,1,0,57.0,91755,anon643983720,anon440786980,"[quote=""anon440786980, post:4, topic:15354""] What do you think will be the next big topic to focus on and to demand open data after the Pandemic crisis? [/quote] The only important step is that the open data is gone. At least those of the public administration. I try to explain :) Open data must no longer be something special, but one of the automatic consequences of the work on public information assets. It must be like opening a water tap at home, a fact that can be taken for granted: quality assurance, available on request, whose contact person is known, whose process documentation exists, etc. Just talk about open data, let's talk about data and their value." 39,92589,2021-03-02T17:29:20.032Z,15354,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,92586,anon3293146268,anon3379761435,Thanks! Yes I will listen in. Curious to see the discussion. 40,92590,2021-03-02T17:32:45.944Z,15354,0,11,10,2,1,0,12.2,92576,anon3379761435,anon1537101702,"[quote=""anon1537101702, post:33, topic:15354""] one of the main problems about the resistance against governments and health authorities collecting this data via the apps is that the duration of data aggregation is unclear, so is the temporality of the pandemic [/quote] Ok, but the question is: *why* would that be unclear? If we are talking about apps, the raw data are timestamped to the millisecond. All you need to do is pick a method for aggregation (example: ""daily, from 0:00:00 to 23:59:59"") and document it in the metadata. In general, in this story I am fascinated by anon2696444391 things that do not look like rocket science, like the aggregation, as you say, become seemingly impossible. In Italy there is anon2373157426 some pressure to publish. @anon3269455027, @anon643983720, why, oh why do they not publish? And, more technically: which data are still not published, despite pressure? Here I am asking mostly Giorgia and Andrea, and referring to Italy, to begin with." 41,92591,2021-03-02T17:40:11.126Z,15354,0,11,10,1,1,0,7.2,92588,anon3379761435,anon643983720,"[quote=""anon643983720, post:38, topic:15354""] Open data must no longer be something special, but one of the automatic consequences of the work on public information assets. [/quote] OK, Andrea, we agree on that. But the COVID mess really brought it home: we seem very, very far from this ""natural"" way of handling public data. COVID data are urgent; there is a high demand and a lot of attention (our mutual friend Piersoft made a dashboard that got tens of millions of views); no privacy problem at all, since all data are aggregated. And they are ""classic"" open data, data gathered for administrative reasons that can yield extra benefits when shared. And yet, no joy. So yes, things should work just like you say... but what is your opinion on why they are not?" 42,92592,2021-03-02T17:40:44.801Z,15354,0,12,11,1,1,0,7.4,91799,anon3269455027,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:7, topic:15354, full:true""] First: *there is a structural tendency of governments towards a strategic use of information*. Open data and open modelling limit such use, so that is an obstacle to their adoption. Second: *there is an issue with the independence of the institutions whose job is to gather, publish and use the data*. Science should be independent, but can the Koch Institute really annoy the all-powerful federal minister? Here I see a role for civil society, and organizations such as Andrea's own [Ondata](https://ondata.it). And third: *publicly accessible data can help in building public trust* at a time when even governments manufacture fake news (though, in Seehofer's defense, his intentions might have been good). But, de facto, this does not seem to be working. We have (some) data, but trust is super low. In Belgium anti-vaxxers run rampant. What, in your opinion, is going on? [/quote] First of all, what an amazing story that opens to so many issues also ethical let me say. To answer to this question: Probably yes. Take into account that knowledge is power and having informed citizens implies having less control on them. Open Data enables a wider knowledge and possibly citizens who can reason and develop their own opinions. It is exactly the contrary wrt any populism that speaks to the first impression of the people who do not know about complexities of the problems of the society. Second question. Yep indeed. Opening up data allows more people to control that. These situations can be overcome. BTW: I am now in an research Institute.If the government asks me for the catastrophic scenario I might want to sanon2696444391 that but facts guide the Science and only that. Third question: Because we have many data of poor quality and this prevents to see a real impact of its reuse. In addition, many important data with a strong and direct impact is still closed I am afraid. This means that people cannot appreciate the potential of opening up data" 43,92593,2021-03-02T17:43:47.377Z,15354,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,91202,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Many people share personal data for inconsequential services or comfort all the time, but it seems that for something like contract tracing for the virus or in general anything that is not an app people choose for their own comfort there is a lot more scrutiny used. Do you think that it is important to always take these opportunities to have those conversations about privacy etc. or do you think that sometimes necessary data-sharing is inhibited by it becoming an exercise in the discussion around privacy that people avoid in so many relevant parts of their lives where the data-sharing would be far less necessary but is done for more nonchalant? We discussed the German App for covid-tracing a bit more here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/germany-introduces-corona-virus-tracing-app-why-arent-people-more-sceptical/13906" 44,92594,2021-03-02T17:46:06.647Z,15354,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,91202,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,"@anon3293146268 here is a civic hacker based in Vienna. I just met him yesterday on Twitter, but am in awe of his great [dataset of EU COVID data at the NUTS2 and NUTS3 level](https://github.com/asjadnaqvi/COVID19-European-Regional-Tracker). ![image|312x286](upload://rhfyP68EKduLP51GRefWaDpANBl.png) anon3293146268, what is your Europe-wide impression? Do you see many disparities in open data strategies, or rather similarities?" 45,92595,2021-03-02T17:46:54.941Z,15354,1,11,10,1,1,0,42.2,91982,anon3269455027,anon422361926,"[quote=""anon422361926, post:8, topic:15354, full:true""] **What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:**
- To what extent keeping the Covid data closed is hampering the fight against the pandemic

[/quote] I tell you the Italian story. For days some Italian regions complained for the government decision to put the region in ""red"". Not sure you know that based on some data (mostly closed to everybody) the government takes decisions on closing or opening up social and public activities. They claimed that they were orange or even yellow (better colors because most of the activities are tot open). And they asked to be moved at least in orange area. Well, we do not know precisely if the first government decision that limited so much the freedom of enterprises and citizens is correct or not. With more open data probably that strange situation with continuous controversies could be easily and quickly fixed!" 46,92596,2021-03-02T17:48:17.199Z,15354,1,12,11,1,1,0,12.4,92595,anon3379761435,anon3269455027,"[quote=""anon3269455027, post:45, topic:15354""] Not sure you know that based on some data (mostly closed to everybody) the government takes decisions on closing or opening up social and public activities. [/quote] Giorgia, I think this story needs to be told, most readers will not know it..." 47,92597,2021-03-02T17:49:33.317Z,15354,0,12,11,1,1,0,7.4,92151,anon3269455027,anon1845230842,"[quote=""anon1845230842, post:29, topic:15354, full:true""] **What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:**
What's thing number one you would do (with the data, but not only) if Italian COVID data actually became open and accessible to everyone?

[/quote] I would definitely reuse it to link it to other data! It is not the single dataset that unlocks the value but the ability to link it to other data that can allow us to truly benefit of the shared and open knowledge" 48,92598,2021-03-02T17:50:31.130Z,15354,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,92596,anon3269455027,anon3379761435,Yep you are right! 49,92599,2021-03-02T17:50:40.550Z,15354,3,11,10,1,1,0,22.2,91757,anon643983720,anon2273676498,"[quote=""anon2273676498, post:5, topic:15354""] Thinking in terms of baby steps, which would be the first 3-4 steps to move forward? [/quote] Ciao Matteo, I love to see you here! Simple questions are the most complex. My steps: - In this year, here in Italy, I have too often heard decision makers say phrases that sanon2696444391ed that they did not have the necessary basic knowledge on these issues. These issues are important, they must be a piece of their profession. Data literacy by default; - I repeat myself a anon2488317424. Building processes where open data is one of 100 outcomes; do not build an isolated process designed only for publishing open data. Because otherwise it is not sustainable and in most cases, sooner or later it will stop or produce dirty data; - Build stable and clear procedures that allow and define the modalities of interlucution between the parties: decision makers, researchers, associations, companies, citizens. In this year it was very bad and limiting (in Italy), to be treated like a child to whom the grandfather explains anon2696444391 to walk. But I can walk and I'm 47 years old - Implement the rules and procedures that have existed for years in Europe and in many other countries. The legislation on open data and the re-use of public sector information. These laws, rules and procedure cannot automatically produce outcomes, because it is probably not considered a strategic fact. It is possible that the website of the Italian Ministry of Health has a license that does not allow the publication of any derivative work and that all that remains is to hope that someone can change it only for personal availability." 50,92600,2021-03-02T17:52:01.125Z,15354,2,9,8,1,0,0,31.8,92594,anon3293146268,anon3379761435,"When the EC/JRC starting putting together NUTS2 level COVID-19 maps, I thought that they would start releasing regional data as well. They clearly have it and I would have made a lot of sense for research work. But suddenly they announced in October 2020 that they would actually scale down the whole thing and only release aggregated bi-weekly statistics. This was really surprising and in the opposite direction I thought they would go. I think besides the countries holding back on data, the EU is also not doing much. It might be on purpose. Additionally, as i mention in the document, all countries now have fancy dashboards, but anon2696444391 to get to the data behind them, is a massive challenge." 51,92602,2021-03-02T18:01:25.475Z,15354,2,8,7,1,0,0,16.6,91202,anon3269455027,anon1753543892,"For everybody: in Italy we decided to take decisions on COVID restrictions based on data. That’s very important btw. The idea is that Italian regions are color-coded according to three main colors. Yellow: you can do some things but not others (e.g., you cannot go to the restaurants during the evening); orange (there are some restrictions. but still there is some freedom of movement); red (you essential are anon2373157426 stuck at home with some exceptions). Well, for a week one Italian region was in red area because based on some data that the central government collects, the resulting color was red. They complained a lot since they claimed it was not true. Nobody, especially not citizens, could verify that. Where is the truth? Opening up data allows us to better control these cases and probably avoid unnecessary controversies." 52,92603,2021-03-02T18:01:46.300Z,15354,0,10,9,110,0,0,547.0,91202,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,"And, sorry to ask so many questions, but I am so exasperated... let's talk about vaccination data. In Belgium, where I live, the situation is this. The federal public health institute, called Sciensano, published data on vaccine doses administered (""jab in arms""): https://datastudio.google.com/embed/u/anon But there is a problem. There are NO data on the vaccine doses *delivered* by the Pharma companies. This is not good at all, because – as in much of Europe – the vaccination campaign in Belgium is going very slow. A common explanation has been to blame the companies for not delivering fast enough. High-profile Belgian MEP Guy Vershofstadt has pointed out that [the European Commission has signed contracts that did not guarantee the speed of its supplies](https://euobserver.com/stakeholders/150931). https://youtu.be/wy6tQQ_YF20 But is it so? Without data on deliveries, we do not know. A Belgian hacker called [Joris Vaesen](https://twitter.com/jorisvaesen) has made [his own dashboard](https://covid-vaccinatie.be/en), and that one *does* have data on doses delivered: And it seems that no: the curve of doses delivered rises faster than that of the jabs in arms. It seems Verhofstadt is wrong: the blame does not lie with the Commission, but with Belgian health authorities. But the embarassing bit is what Vaesen has to use as his sources: news articles and press releases from companies. Of course: there are no open data! And yet the data exist, because the government buys the damn things, and keeps them in warehouses. *Why* can we not have them? " 53,92604,2021-03-02T18:03:57.365Z,15354,1,9,8,52,0,0,266.8,92600,anon3293146268,anon3293146268,"Another example I can give you is that Eurostat has a massive database on weekly deaths. It is available for most countries and is the main source of excess death graphs one sees online. But Germany is missing from Eurostat even though the German statistical agency publishes this information online. So I don't get why cant this be added to the centralized database. Unlike tracing apps data, this information is already in the public domain. There is a need for data solidarity in Europe." 54,92605,2021-03-02T18:04:55.584Z,15354,0,9,8,1,1,0,21.8,92095,anon3269455027,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:24, topic:15354, full:true""] **What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:**
I have read your petition and I followed the link to Integrated COVID-19 Surveillance of the Istituto Superiore di Sanità. The ""open data"" they offer sanon2696444391s cases by date and cases by region. Is what you are demanding the right to see the raw data that creates those totals? How personal is that data if it is disaggregated?

[/quote] First of all that data is not open data and this is something we should tell the people about because we need to let people understand what open data is truly! Secondly, yep we asked formally and informally that data and other data they have to be released as open data in order to control the decisions that are taken and that influence so much our freedom. BTW: asked for more detailed data at the level of province but still after one year we have just total cases. It is not enough :slight_smile:" 55,92606,2021-03-02T18:07:02.486Z,15354,2,9,8,1,1,0,16.8,92599,anon3379761435,anon643983720,"[quote=""anon643983720, post:49, topic:15354""] Building processes where open data is one of 100 outcomes; do not build an isolated process designed only for publishing open data. Because otherwise it is not sustainable and in most cases, sooner or later it will stop or produce dirty data; [/quote] Can I ask you to expand on this, Andrea? You seem to be saying: Italian public administrations are bad at open data because they are bad at orderly processes. Which is to say... they are bad at mostly *everything*. A public administration is supposed to be a bureaucracy! If it cannot do process, then what it is that it can do? If that is true, we have a deeper problem than open data: we have a capacity problem, a governance problem. We are completely helpless, the system kind of limps along when there are no external shocks, but it cannot manage anything like COVID, or climate change, or social upheaval. This would be very bad. Is this what you are saying? @anon3269455027, you are a former civil servant. Any thoughts?" 56,92607,2021-03-02T18:10:07.704Z,15354,1,8,7,1,2,0,11.6,92600,anon3379761435,anon3293146268,"[quote=""anon3293146268, post:50, topic:15354""] all countries now have fancy dashboards, but anon2696444391 to get to the data behind them, is a massive challenge. [/quote] Haha, Andrea, Giorgia and I know each other from a mailing list called Spaghetti Open Data, where a recurring joke is ""let's take to the street and break those dashboards!"" (because people want the data behind them. We used to run tutorials on scraperwiki and such... [quote=""anon3293146268, post:53, topic:15354""] Another example I can give you is that Eurostat has a massive database on weekly deaths. It is available for most countries and is the main source of excess death graphs one sees online. But Germany is missing from Eurostat even though the German statistical agency publishes this information online. So I don’t get why cant this be added to the centralized database. [/quote] Uh? Did you ask why that is?" 57,92608,2021-03-02T18:15:59.202Z,15354,1,8,7,1,1,0,11.6,92607,anon3293146268,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:56, topic:15354""] Uh? Did you ask why that is? [/quote] Who do I ask? :slight_smile: In any case this project I did was additional work on top of the existing research commitments. But since I have several projects dealing with NUTS level analysis, the main idea was to preserve the data before it disappears from the internet. Something I have seen happen many times in the past." 58,92609,2021-03-02T18:16:54.600Z,15354,0,9,8,1,1,0,6.8,92285,anon3269455027,anon198766849,"[quote=""anon198766849, post:31, topic:15354, full:true""] Thanks, this looks really interesting! **What would you like to ask Giorgia Lodi and Andrea Borruso:** 1. What kinds of public sector/COVID data should generally NOT be made accessible and why? 2. How do you reconcile the desire for open data with individual rights, such as privacy (e.g. some ostensibly ""non-personal"" data can be de-anonymised or aggregate data used to discriminate against groups)? 3. If you already hold large data sets and have significant resources, you're better-placed to derive additional value from new data. Does open data run the risk of exacerbating centralisation in the digital economy? Are there any progressive or differential approaches to public sector data sharing that can address this imbalance? [/quote] 1. open data does not include personal data, with some exceptions to balance other rights (e.g., transparency). However, there are anon2863106368s of data owned by PAs that can be definitely returned back to the society because it does not include personal data (e.g., environmental data. Why are still so closed?) :) And personal data should be **seamlessly** shared among institutions for specific institutional purposes. 2. from my perspective this is still an open issues. Finding the right balance is something we need to work on, all researchers, PAs and also the private sector. It is not easy: aggregate means loosing information. probably we need to investigate more anon2696444391 to apply strong privacy preserving techniques that are available at the state of the art. I still see this as a very big obstacle because skills are missing, in particular in public sector. That's way I keep on saying that a much larger collaboration with research institutions and PAs for instance is key to make progresses and break the barrier of the fear that usually exists when opening data that may have some impact on privacy rights 3. oh no no, I've been studying since years fully decentralized approachs. There is no need to centralize the data in 2021!! For instance paradigms as Linked Data and projects like solid demonstrate that it is possible :)" 59,92610,2021-03-02T18:17:00.220Z,15354,1,9,8,1,1,0,11.8,92602,anon3379761435,anon3269455027,"[quote=""anon3269455027, post:51, topic:15354""] Well, for a week one Italian region was in red area because based on some data that the central government collects, the resulting color was red. They complained a lot since they claimed it was not true. Nobody, especially not citizens, could verify that. [/quote] I read that this was based on that region's (Lombardia: ~10 million residents) failure to update the clinical condition of infected people. They would heal, but still be counted as infected (and infectious) by the model, which consequently decided for the code red. [quote=""anon3269455027, post:51, topic:15354""] in Italy we decided to take decisions on COVID restrictions based on data. That’s very important btw. [/quote] Yes, it beats Belgium, where we have no idea which data and which models are being taken into account by our Comité de Concértation. it feels very random, with decisions like ""we are re-opening hairdressers, but trimming or shaving men's beards is still forbidden"". Like Andrea said, it does feel like being infantilized." 60,92611,2021-03-02T18:22:41.794Z,15354,1,9,8,1,1,0,11.8,92608,anon3379761435,anon3293146268,"[quote=""anon3293146268, post:57, topic:15354""] Who do I ask? :slight_smile: [/quote] I just tried Twitter: ![image|346x229](upload://3JeA4Do8eAca3N2OQxALuekQOPB.png)" 61,92612,2021-03-02T18:22:56.761Z,15354,1,9,8,1,1,0,26.8,91799,anon643983720,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:7, topic:15354, full:true""] First: *there is a structural tendency of governments towards a strategic use of information* . Open data and open modelling limit such use, so that is an obstacle to their adoption. [/quote] This thing, I have understood in these months, before I did not have the awareness, it is the thing. Public data, epidemic governance and democracy. It is a huge cultural and political issue, this we are talking about is not a matter of obsession with data, this is a daily and everyone's issue. The effort we must make, each in its own context, is to emphasize anon2696444391 important it is. [quote] Second: *there is an issue with the independence of the institutions whose job is to gather, publish and use the data* . Science should be independent, but can the Koch Institute really annoy the all-powerful federal minister? Here I see a role for civil society, and organizations such as Andrea’s own [Ondata ](https://ondata.it). [/quote] It is a dog that bites its own tail. If science is not independent, but data and also the documentation of the processes that produce them are available, someone else will be able more easily to monitor both institutions and research centers, and the bar phrases that we too sometimes express about too specialized topics. Civil society and NGO that deal with these issues must be committed to teaming up, they must be prepared and ready. We have done a good job of keeping attention on the issue, creating a large and above all new network. But it is still too anon2488317424. We will dedicate the resources we have available to do better and more in 2021. [quote] And third: *publicly accessible data can help in building public trust* at a time when even governments manufacture fake news (though, in Seehofer’s defense, his intentions might have been good). But, de facto, this does not seem to be working. We have (some) data, but trust is super low. In Belgium anti-vaxxers run rampant. [/quote] For the very first long months of the pandemic, I saw people looking at the number tables, as if they were the Olympic medal table. An unnecessary attention to the reading of numbers that in most cases did not add any information. But I've also seen a lot of new attention and evolution. Friends, relatives, colleagues, journalists have had an approach with the subject of data and with the responsibility that one has in managing and telling them, which I had never seen. For example, I have seen journalists asking for the publication of raw and quality data with a maturity that was not there in 2019. I saw the data of the largest survey done every year on the quality of life in Italy, published in a github repo. I have seen the Italian civil protection publish data in ways that will leave a mark. Less than this can no longer be done. I made it long. There is a low overall maturity, but it is clear that this is a great opportunity. For everyone. There is a lot of work to do" 62,92613,2021-03-02T18:26:42.141Z,15354,0,7,6,1,1,0,6.4,91982,anon643983720,anon422361926,"[quote=""anon422361926, post:8, topic:15354""] To what extent keeping the Covid data closed is hampering the fight against the pandemic [/quote] I could tell you that if the data is scarce it is difficult to answer this questionI could tell you that if the data is scarce it is difficult to answer this question :wink:. Transparency is a basic principle of democracies. The availability of public data is necessary in order to involve the scientific community in managing the epidemic. In the absence of transparency, every conclusion becomes contestable on the scientific level and, therefore, also on the political level." 63,92614,2021-03-02T18:27:04.541Z,15354,1,9,8,1,1,0,26.8,92515,anon3269455027,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:32, topic:15354, full:true""] I have a second question, that concerns data on the COVID apps for tracing. Back in the spring of 2020 there was a lot of attention, with most major governments launching their own apps: and a lively debate on whether those apps would work, and whether their benefits were worth the risks to privacy. We [also participated in that debate](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-results-of-the-community-listening-post-on-risks-for-freedom-in-the-wake-of-covid-19/13183). People in this community tended to see the emphasis on apps as a sort of technological hail Mary, and were cautious about the usefulness of the apps in *this* pandemic, though more upbeat about the next one. [quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13183""] One participant had this to offer: > I am currently involved with a group building a contact tracing app. But I am uneasy, actually thank you for giving voice to my anxieties. I do not see my colleagues discussing the use cases for this tech. I do not see them asking themselves if their solution is going to be effective. I do not see them discussing failure modes of the technologies. Almost everybody is hiding their head in the sand about the consequences of these solutions, intended or not. [/quote] Almost a year later, we are left wondering about the effects of those effort. At least, we should have ample grounds for an evaluation. But we are left wondering: the Italian one [has been criticized](https://www.ilpost.it/2021/02/18/immuni-app-draghi/); so, apparently was the German one. There are more positive analyses for Switzerland ([paper](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33327003/), paywalled) and, especially, the UK, where it is estimated that every patient who tested positive and agreed to notifying her condition via the app resulted in 1-2 averted infections ([paper](https://github.com/BDI-pathogens/covid-19_instant_tracing/blob/master/Epidemiological_Impact_of_the_NHS_COVID_19_App_Public_Release_V1.pdf)). In all this, the Italian app has the merit of maintaining [a repo of open data on GitHub](https://github.com/immuni-app/immuni-dashboard-data). The English/Welsh NHS COVID-19 app also has [a page of downloadable data](https://faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01367), although I cannot find a license. But it is no so for the Scottish and Northern Irish versions of the app. One of the saddest cases might be that of Belgium, where I live: no official data at all. A recent working paper by U Gent had to resort to an online survey. Only 2.2% of respondents had ever received a notification of exposure from the app ([paper](https://biblio.ugent.be/publication/8696152)). What do you make of this situation? Why are these data so difficult to obtain? And who do you think is publishing them? Is it the companies who maintain the software (that seems the case, as I cannot find the data from the app on the [Italian government's open data portal](https://dati.gov.it/view-dataset?Cerca=immuni), they appear to be only on GitHub)? Is it the public health administrations? Update: * [French data](https://www.data.gouv.fr/fr/datasets/metriques-dutilisation-de-lapplication-tousanticovid/) * [Swiss data](https://www.europeandataportal.eu/data/datasets/swisscovid-app-monitoring-bundesamt-fur-statistik-bfs?locale=en) * [England-and-Wales data](https://faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01367) (not sure these are open, cannot find the license). [/quote] Wow! What an important and controversial topic. We are speaking about statistics? Or do you mean the data coming from the tracing app? To the best of my knowledge the data of the app is under the control of the Italian Ministry of Health. The app in Italy was designed to take into account the privacy since its design. I do not see so many issues and honestly that data would be so beneficial to trace anon2696444391 outbreaks can be formed and where they are (in schools? A great debate in Italy and we still do not know!). At the end of the story, I am not sure the potential of the app was understood neither by people nor by institutions. Indeed it did not work, also because such an innovative element was put in place in a very old system that does not reason in terms of data for instance. So the app and all its data are both resulting useless at the time being." 64,92615,2021-03-02T18:37:32.494Z,15354,2,8,7,1,2,0,16.6,92614,anon3379761435,anon3269455027,"[quote=""anon3269455027, post:63, topic:15354""] We are speaking about statistics? [/quote] Yes, of course. I would not want to open the personal data can of worms. But even that is weird. The data from the Italian COVID app are on GitHub, but not on dati.gov.it. I guess this is because it is the company that made and maintains it that publishes the data, not the public sector. Capacity problems... [quote=""anon643983720, post:61, topic:15354""] This thing [strategic use of information by governments], I have understood in these months, before I did not have the awareness, it is the thing. Public data, epidemic governance and democracy. [/quote] [quote=""anon643983720, post:61, topic:15354""] If science is not independent, but data and also the documentation of the processes that produce them are available, someone else will be able more easily to monitor both institutions and research centers, and the bar phrases that we too sometimes express about too specialized topics. Civil society and NGO that deal with these issues must be committed to teaming up, they must be prepared and ready. [/quote] These are both important conclusions! Glad we could clear that up. @anon643983720, @anon3269455027, an hour has passed, and you have been taking a lot of questions. You too @anon3293146268, thanks! I think we can end here for now. Very likely some more questions and remarks will come in the next few days, maybe we will ask you to come back and address them. Many, many thanks! This was fun :clap: :clap: :clap:" 65,92616,2021-03-02T18:38:16.638Z,15354,0,8,7,1,2,0,6.6,92610,anon3269455027,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:59, topic:15354, full:true""] [quote=""anon3269455027, post:51, topic:15354""] Well, for a week one Italian region was in red area because based on some data that the central government collects, the resulting color was red. They complained a lot since they claimed it was not true. Nobody, especially not citizens, could verify that. [/quote] I read that this was based on that region's (Lombardia: ~10 million residents) failure to update the clinical condition of infected people. They would heal, but still be counted as infected (and infectious) by the model, which consequently decided for the code red. [/quote] True Alberto, that's was the case. And BTW: after 1 year of pandemic do we have a shared semantics in Italy and in Europe? hmmm... [quote=""anon3269455027, post:51, topic:15354""] in Italy we decided to take decisions on COVID restrictions based on data. That’s very important btw. [/quote] [quote=""anon3379761435, post:59, topic:15354, full:true""] Yes, it beats Belgium, where we have no idea which data and which models are being taken into account by our Comité de Concértation. it feels very random, with decisions like ""we are re-opening hairdressers, but trimming or shaving men's beards is still forbidden"". Like Andrea said, it does feel like being infantilized. [/quote] We need to contrast these situations and from my point of view open data could help a lot!" 66,92617,2021-03-02T18:38:22.510Z,15354,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,92615,anon3293146268,anon3379761435,Thanks for inviting me to join this interesting discussion! 67,92618,2021-03-02T18:42:52.241Z,15354,1,7,6,1,1,0,11.4,92095,anon643983720,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:24, topic:15354""] I have read your petition and I followed the link to Integrated COVID-19 Surveillance of the Istituto Superiore di Sanità. The “open data” they offer sanon2696444391s cases by date and cases by region. Is what you are demanding the right to see the raw data that creates those totals? How personal is that data if it is disaggregated? [/quote] It's not so simple. The [license of ISS website](https://www.epicentro.iss.it/chi-siamo/disclaimer) is wrong, it is wrong for this context: it's a CC BY-NC-ND. Here the basis must be open science and instead we have the block of derivative works. In those data we have too much aggregate data on many issues. We want them to be less aggregate, in compliance with the rules on the protection of privacy. There are techniques to disaggregate and anonymize the data and whoever manages this must have staff who know these techniques." 68,92619,2021-03-02T18:43:20.824Z,15354,2,7,6,1,1,0,46.4,92615,anon3269455027,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:64, topic:15354, full:true""] Yes, of course. I would not want to open the personal data can of worms. But even that is weird. The data from the Italian COVID app are on GitHub, but not on dati.gov.it. I guess this is because it is the company that made and maintains it that publishes the data, not the public sector. Capacity problems... [/quote] To be in dati.gov.it institutions should properly include metadata following the European standard. It is not sufficient to publish it in github :) In this sense Italian civil protection has github but also metadata that can be harvested by dati.gov.it And probably we could use also the data of the app itself designed to be privacy since the very beginning! [quote=""anon3379761435, post:64, topic:15354, full:true""] These are both important conclusions! Glad we could clear that up. @anon643983720, @anon3269455027, an hour has passed, and you have been taking a lot of questions. You too @anon3293146268, thanks! I think we can end here for now. Very likely some more questions and remarks will come in the next few days, maybe we will ask you to come back and address them. Many, many thanks! This was fun :clap: :clap: :clap: [/quote] I am very glad to continue a anon2488317424 bit and I will continue also in the upcoming days. It is such an interesting discussion! Thanks you @anon3379761435 and @anon1753543892 for this!" 69,92621,2021-03-02T18:43:29.298Z,15354,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,91202,anon3297512534,anon1753543892,"**I will join the live chat on March 2nd, 18:30 CET:**


" 70,92622,2021-03-02T18:45:01.457Z,15354,0,7,6,1,2,0,6.4,92618,anon3269455027,anon643983720,"[quote=""anon643983720, post:67, topic:15354, full:true""] [quote=""anon3203746736, post:24, topic:15354""] I have read your petition and I followed the link to Integrated COVID-19 Surveillance of the Istituto Superiore di Sanità. The “open data” they offer sanon2696444391s cases by date and cases by region. Is what you are demanding the right to see the raw data that creates those totals? How personal is that data if it is disaggregated? [/quote] It's not so simple. The [license of ISS website](https://www.epicentro.iss.it/chi-siamo/disclaimer) is wrong, it is wrong for this context: it's a CC BY-NC-ND. Here the basis must be open science and instead we have the block of derivative works. In those data we have too much aggregate data on many issues. We want them to be less aggregate, in compliance with the rules on the protection of privacy. There are techniques to disaggregate and anonymize the data and whoever manages this must have staff who know these techniques. [/quote] This is the issue and that's why before I was saying that we must tell the things as they are: that data is not Open Data even if they call it like that erroneously!" 71,92623,2021-03-02T18:47:40.115Z,15354,1,7,6,1,1,0,26.4,92151,anon643983720,anon1845230842,"[quote=""anon1845230842, post:29, topic:15354""] What’s thing number one you would do (with the data, but not only) if Italian COVID data actually became open and accessible to everyone? [/quote] - I would have a party; - I would tell everyone this thing, I would do a lot of dissemination - created opportunities for teaching, but not only at school and in universities, but also in the concierge offices of the buildings - I would take it as an opportunity to understand everyone, myself first, the value of data, social, economic, political" 72,92624,2021-03-02T18:49:20.514Z,15354,1,7,6,1,1,0,11.4,92619,anon3379761435,anon3269455027,"[quote=""anon3269455027, post:68, topic:15354""] To be in dati.gov.it institutions should properly include metadata following the European standard. It is not sufficient to publish it in github :slight_smile: In this sense Italian civil protection has github but also metadata that can be harvested by dati.gov.it [/quote] Yes... and the Civil Protection Agency knows this. But whoever made the open dataset of the app, seems to *not* know this, or not care. This makes me think that it was the app developer rather than a government agency. There is no sense of ownership of the app data by the government, no ""this is my app, these are my data, and, by God, they are going to go on my open data portal"". And by the way, yesterday on Twitter I learned this: ![image|332x253](upload://aLq73ArN9WA1YUeetmyzmA4F6ko.png) :man_facepalming:" 73,92625,2021-03-02T18:51:29.478Z,15354,1,7,6,1,2,0,26.4,92606,anon3269455027,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:55, topic:15354, full:true""] [quote=""anon643983720, post:49, topic:15354""] Building processes where open data is one of 100 outcomes; do not build an isolated process designed only for publishing open data. Because otherwise it is not sustainable and in most cases, sooner or later it will stop or produce dirty data; [/quote] Can I ask you to expand on this, Andrea? You seem to be saying: Italian public administrations are bad at open data because they are bad at orderly processes. Which is to say... they are bad at mostly *everything*. A public administration is supposed to be a bureaucracy! If it cannot do process, then what it is that it can do? If that is true, we have a deeper problem than open data: we have a capacity problem, a governance problem. We are completely helpless, the system kind of limps along when there are no external shocks, but it cannot manage anything like COVID, or climate change, or social upheaval. This would be very bad. Is this what you are saying? @anon3269455027, you are a former civil servant. Any thoughts? [/quote] First of all: The current Italian processes that deal with data are not data-driven . They are document driven meaning that PA typically asks citizens to bring a document that attests they have some characteristics (they are born, they took a degree, they are married, etc.). This is something that has to be changed and very soon BTW otherwise the famous once only principle will be never implemented Secondly, I saw the classical behaviour: I write a lot of text in a website first, or I want to sanon2696444391 very fancy diagrams and dashboard and then if I have time I provide the data. The paradigm should be the other way around: I take care of the data and its quality and around it I build all the rest (the website, the dashboards and the administrative processes). We need to target this, from my point of view obviously!" 74,92626,2021-03-02T18:53:11.297Z,15354,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,92625,anon3269455027,anon3269455027,And let me add: let's enterprises and other organisations reuse the data. PAs should be the platform that enables innovation and open knowledge! 75,92627,2021-03-02T18:54:22.363Z,15354,1,7,6,1,1,0,26.4,92623,anon3379761435,anon643983720,"[quote=""anon643983720, post:71, topic:15354""] * I would have a party; * I would tell everyone this thing, I would do a lot of dissemination * created opportunities for teaching, but not only at school and in universities, but also in the concierge offices of the buildings * I would take it as an opportunity to understand everyone, myself first, the value of data, social, economic, political [/quote] ... and this is why @anon643983720 is one of very few civic hackers whose fans wear T-shirts with his name on it: I would be at that party too, Andrea!" 76,92629,2021-03-02T18:55:51.836Z,15354,0,7,6,1,1,0,36.4,92576,anon643983720,anon1537101702,"[quote=""anon1537101702, post:33, topic:15354, full:true""] I think one of the main problems about the resistance against governments and health authorities collecting this data via the apps is that the duration of data aggregation is unclear, so is the temporality of the pandemic. This might only be the start of an era where such digital certifications, facilitated by AI tech, will be issued with less and less concern for privacy of individuals. We already know anon2696444391 the pandemic is creating extra vulnerabilities for people on the move, border regimes, the class-based inequalities etc. There is now the strong debate about the vaccination certificates and whether these should be only in paper form or also a digitized version that talks to the tracking app data. Many concerns regarding travel rights, right to not be vaccinated…The reason for data openness not being there yet is also due to the bleak approach regarding EU policies as well as national policies on this. The whole thing includes multi-layered approach surrounded by many actors; even the health authorities and their relation to state governments as well as EU governance is a problematic issue in the macro level. The micro and meso levels require more nuances and include insider wars at the moment. [/quote] Vaccination certificates are a topic that makes me think a lot. I see too many risks of creating new classes, of creating new ""different"" people, new categories. Personal data is an issue that affects us all very closely. We must face it with great competence and culture, it is a fact of democracy and civilization. The politics that does not deal with it is the politics that we will not have to choose" 77,92630,2021-03-02T18:59:08.509Z,15354,0,7,6,1,1,0,36.4,92627,anon643983720,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:75, topic:15354""] I would be at that party too, Andrea! [/quote] ""I love you too"" (cit.) Luckily I danced with you at many parties, and today I'm doing it here. Thank you for giving me this opportunity too" 78,92631,2021-03-02T19:05:10.126Z,15354,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,91202,anon643983720,anon1753543892,"Thank you very much to all! Thank you Maria and thank you Alberto" 79,92632,2021-03-02T19:24:47.011Z,15354,0,7,6,1,1,0,21.4,92576,anon3269455027,anon1537101702,"[quote=""anon1537101702, post:33, topic:15354, full:true""] I think one of the main problems about the resistance against governments and health authorities collecting this data via the apps is that the duration of data aggregation is unclear, so is the temporality of the pandemic. This might only be the start of an era where such digital certifications, facilitated by AI tech, will be issued with less and less concern for privacy of individuals. We already know anon2696444391 the pandemic is creating extra vulnerabilities for people on the move, border regimes, the class-based inequalities etc. There is now the strong debate about the vaccination certificates and whether these should be only in paper form or also a digitized version that talks to the tracking app data. Many concerns regarding travel rights, right to not be vaccinated...The reason for data openness not being there yet is also due to the bleak approach regarding EU policies as well as national policies on this. The whole thing includes multi-layered approach surrounded by many actors; even the health authorities and their relation to state governments as well as EU governance is a problematic issue in the macro level. The micro and meso levels require more nuances and include insider wars at the moment. [/quote] I probably touched some of these issues in previous answers. The Italian app was developed, as far as I know, with privacy in mind since the beginning of its design. Therefore, some of the aspects you are mentioning are there considered. Some of its data can probably be useful to trace outbreaks. Obviously with more personal data authorities can better trace the pandemic, but I do not think in our country this happens and happened. However, as I said above, probably we need to invest more on privacy preserving in the more general ""anon2696444391 to deal with data"" :) Said in another way we need to invest more in the data culture that pass through these issues too. Techniques for privacy preserving are available at the state of the art. Aggregations are possible, even if some aggregations that we see for COVID data are bad! I really do not see the point, from a technical perspective. However, what I've witnessed is the fear to open some data because of what you say and also the willingness of not taking responsibilities (I do not want any responsibility, better closing everything - that typically brings people for illegally forcing the systems!). Anyway, as for the vaccinations certificate I have some issues, that are not definitely technical. I think in 2021t they could be definitely digital taking care of all aspects of privacy and security. My issues is more related to the social dimension. It is important anon2696444391 to use it in order not create additional gaps among people @anon3379761435 all the data coming from our Istituto Superiore di Sanità, other data of Ministry of Health regarding COVID, datasets of the outbreaks in schools, and outside the COVID domain, for instance the data regarding the quality of waters (do you know that our Ministry of Health has a nice website with waters and their parameters regarding the quality and the website is under the CC-BY-NC-ND license?). And I can continue with many requests we have done since years for: company registry data, Postal code data, law data (despite our legislation says laws are in public domain), cadastrial data, some public transport data. Therefore, many in the context of COVID and other domains too." 80,92633,2021-03-02T19:33:19.969Z,15354,1,6,5,1,2,0,11.2,92624,anon3269455027,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:72, topic:15354, full:true""] [quote=""anon3269455027, post:68, topic:15354""] To be in dati.gov.it institutions should properly include metadata following the European standard. It is not sufficient to publish it in github :slight_smile: In this sense Italian civil protection has github but also metadata that can be harvested by dati.gov.it [/quote] Yes... and the Civil Protection Agency knows this. But whoever made the open dataset of the app, seems to *not* know this, or not care. This makes me think that it was the app developer rather than a government agency. There is no sense of ownership of the app data by the government, no ""this is my app, these are my data, and, by God, they are going to go on my open data portal"". And by the way, yesterday on Twitter I learned this: ![image|332x253](upload://aLq73ArN9WA1YUeetmyzmA4F6ko.png) :man_facepalming: [/quote] The formula GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT applies always! In any case, I knew that the app was under the government control too. But for instance the Ministry of Health is still not compliant with DCAT-AP_IT (the Italian extension of the European standard) after 5 years since the release of the specs. I mean, probably they also know they have to do that, but what happens if they don't?? Nothing! And that's why we are still here speaking about that. Probably they still need to understand the added value of acting according to standards for instance. Italian Civil Protection is a nice exception in the COVID context. But , in general, we can do definitely better than what we have. Also, as community, we need to raise the ""bar"" on data quality and on correct and modern implementation of the rules that guarantee our rights :slight_smile:" 81,92634,2021-03-02T19:46:25.951Z,15354,0,6,5,2,1,0,26.2,92593,anon3269455027,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:43, topic:15354, full:true""] Many people share personal data for inconsequential services or comfort all the time, but it seems that for something like contract tracing for the virus or in general anything that is not an app people choose for their own comfort there is a lot more scrutiny used. Do you think that it is important to always take these opportunities to have those conversations about privacy etc. or do you think that sometimes necessary data-sharing is inhibited by it becoming an exercise in the discussion around privacy that people avoid in so many relevant parts of their lives where the data-sharing would be far less necessary but is done for more nonchalant? We discussed the German App for covid-tracing a bit more here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/germany-introduces-corona-virus-tracing-app-why-arent-people-more-sceptical/13906 [/quote] In my work in the PA sector for both open data and shared data, the main obstacle that I heard most was ""eh but there is a problem of privacy! We cannot share data or disclose data as open data because of that"". There are fears that I can understand but many times privacy is used as an excuse for not doing because, it it happens something, I do not want responsibilities. We need to keep on talking about this, raise the awareness in all communities, even and especially among civil servants; we need people with the right skills that can bring practical solutions. The Italian app of contact tracing was developed at the end with privacy by design. It is technically possible but we need to invest more on this, in the revision of the processes I was previously mentioning and in letting people know that their rights can be preserved while innovating the society!" 82,92636,2021-03-02T20:35:40.409Z,15354,0,4,3,1,1,0,5.8,92633,anon3379761435,anon3269455027,"[quote=""anon3269455027, post:80, topic:15354""] But for instance the Ministry of Health is still not compliant with DCAT-AP_IT (the Italian extension of the European standard) after 5 years since the release of the specs. I mean, probably they also know they have to do that, but what happens if they don’t?? Nothing! [/quote] Good grief. I did not know that. :frowning:" 83,92652,2021-03-03T13:47:33.922Z,15354,0,4,3,2,0,0,10.8,92611,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Hey @anon3293146268, the German Statistics Institute replied to me. They claim that their data on mortality are indeed conferred to Eurostat: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/metadata/en/demomwk_esms.htm However: > In April 2020, Eurostat set up an exceptional data collection on total weekly deaths. Data are transmitted by the national statistical institutes on voluntary basis, depending on data availability at national level." 1,86417,2020-11-08T11:10:23.179Z,14766,3,42,41,668,0,0,3508.4,86417,anon743282938,anon743282938," In 2014, the Dutch government introduced a legislation approving the use of a risk scoring algorithm to detect welfare fraud. This system, called System Risk Indication (SyRI), pools together data from various government agencies to calculate the likelihood of committing welfare or tax fraud. The UN Special Rapporteur on Extreme Poverty and Human Rights has described governments’ use of similar systems as “[digital welfare states](https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Poverty/A_74_48037_AdvanceUneditedVersion.docx)” and condemned them for their lack of transparency and oversight, and discriminatory impacts. In the case of SyRI, we discovered that the system used neighbourhood data to profile against migrant and poor communities. With a coalition of privacy organisations, we challenged SyRI on grounds of privacy and equality violations. Earlier this year, the Dutch court found SyRI to be unlawful and ordered its immediate halt. You can read more [here](https://algorithmwatch.org/en/story/syri-netherlands-algorithm/) and [here](https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBDHA:2020:1878). This case sets a strong legal precedents for future cases. Unfortunately, the Dutch government recently introduced a new legislation with even more intrusive use of personal data for automated decision-making system–the fight continues! Join me and others this Wednesday at 6:30pm CET to AMA about automated decision-making systems and their impacts on our human rights. *What is an AMA and anon2696444391 does it work?* AMA, or Ask Me Anything, is an [interviewing format](https://mashable.com/2013/03/25/reddit-ama-tips/?europe=true) popularised via Reddit. In short, you ask me questions, and I answer them live for an hour. *How does it work?* Anyone is welcome to post questions/comments below. On Wednesday, I’ll come back to this thread to start answering questions I find interesting. I will do my best to reply to as many questions as possible, but please note that not all questions/comments will be addressed. *Who can join?* Anyone! As the conversations get going during the hour, you will see multiple threads naturally emerging. There is an open invitation for everyone to contribute–please feel free to reach out to other community members, either on the thread or via DM, to continue the discussion!! *photo credit: Pete Linforth*" 2,86421,2020-11-08T14:32:30.972Z,14766,1,34,33,3,0,0,56.8,86417,anon3912112492,anon743282938,"This is awesome Ananon2863106368! This is a great victory for all of us. I'd be curious to know if (and anon2696444391) you are tying your goals to the Free Software/Open Source movement someanon2696444391? Have you maybe written about this somewhere? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuVUzg6x2yo https://publiccode.eu/" 3,86428,2020-11-08T20:28:06.485Z,14766,2,29,28,11,0,0,85.8,86417,anon659222949,anon743282938,"Hey @anon743282938, thanks for doing this! At the NGI Forum last year, Nesta hosted [a discussion on a potential ""NGI Trustmark""](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/ngi-trustmark-notes-from-ngi-forum-workshop/10883/4) for AI. One of the issues brought up by an AI researcher was this: [quote=""anon659222949, post:1, topic:10883""] * AI bias is difficult because reducing bias often decreases accuracy. AI bias could be addressed by requiring companies to be upfront about what trade-offs they have accepted and anon2696444391 their AIs are biased. This is much like anon2696444391 human bias (internalized racism, sexism, etc) is addressed by becoming aware of one’s own bias. [/quote] How do you think this could work in practice? And is a Trustmark a good idea, or is it a waste of effort?" 4,86429,2020-11-08T20:32:03.198Z,14766,1,29,28,1,0,0,30.8,86417,anon659222949,anon743282938,"Another idea I came up with during that discussion on Trusmarks was anon2373157426 a radical proposal: That any AI trained on public data or data acquired in a public setting must be released to the public, by EU law. What do you think about that proposal?" 5,86441,2020-11-09T08:48:23.952Z,14766,0,28,27,3,0,0,20.6,86428,anon3828707713,anon659222949,ping @anon3086952555 ! 6,86467,2020-11-09T13:56:31.905Z,14766,0,24,23,1,0,0,9.8,86417,anon3379761435,anon743282938,"Awesome, indeed. Welcome, @anon743282938, and thank you so much for this. I'll be there... which means here. :-)" 7,86468,2020-11-09T13:57:17.960Z,14766,1,22,21,1,2,0,14.4,86429,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:4, topic:14766""] That any AI trained on public data or data acquired in a public setting must be released to the public, by EU law. [/quote] Promising, but... what does it mean, exactly, to ""release an AI""? [quote=""anon743282938, post:1, topic:14766""] In 2014, the Dutch government introduced a legislation approving the use of a risk scoring algorithm to detect welfare fraud. This system, called System Risk Indication (SyRI), pools together data from various government agencies to calculate the likelihood of committing welfare or tax fraud. The UN Special Rapporteur on Extreme Poverty and Human Rights has described governments’ use of similar systems as “[digital welfare states ](https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Poverty/A_74_48037_AdvanceUneditedVersion.docx)” and condemned them for their lack of transparency and oversight, and discriminatory impacts. In the case of SyRI, we discovered that the system used neighbourhood data to profile against migrant and poor communities. [/quote] I wonder if @anon" 8,86472,2020-11-09T15:48:24.931Z,14766,0,20,19,2,1,0,29.0,86468,anon659222949,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:7, topic:14766""] Promising, but… what does it mean, exactly, to “release an AI”? [/quote] To release the input variables and the code that generates the AI. It is, after all, deterministic. This does not have to be the same thing as releasing private data if the data is anonymized and scrambled. By doing so, anyone with the computing power required could test the bias of the AI by feeding it test data." 9,86474,2020-11-09T16:34:38.015Z,14766,1,20,19,2,0,0,19.0,86417,anon3379761435,anon743282938,"@anon743282938: could you explain the mechanism whereby, exactly, SyRI targeted especially the poor? After all, if you are looking at social welfare fraud, most people using social welfare are likely to be poor. And another question: what was, in your opinion, what made the court decide to order SyRI's shutdown? Was it opacity? Or lack of fairness? Or what?" 11,86480,2020-11-09T18:13:59.809Z,14766,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,86417,anon3203746736,anon743282938,"It appears that the mere act of using algorithms per se is not the main issue, unless they discriminate, profile unfairly, do not disclose, get permission or otherwise violate the European Convention on Human Rights and/or the GDPR. Algorithms are used to determine someone’s credit worthiness and algorithms get used in crime fighting, and other purposes. Do you think the government will try to make some adjustments to comply with article 8 and the GDPR and then try to carry on with the program? It seems on reading the ruling that the Court is open to it. (“The court shares the position of the State that those new technological possibilities to prevent and combat fraud should be used.”)" 12,86484,2020-11-09T18:43:36.182Z,14766,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,86417,anon3203746736,anon743282938,"I found this part of the Judgement to be fascinating. It seems to me to be saying that profiling is pretty accurate, but we aren't sure why since it isn't based on substantive merits. Thus there are no admissible reasons that justify it. So, it's bad to profile people, but it works pretty well. But just because you can doesn't mean you should. This is a fundamental dynamic. It seems like you almost should need a warrant to do it, like wiretapping. >""The term “self-learning” is confusing and misleading: an algorithm does not know and understand reality. There are predictive algorithms which are fairly accurate in predicting the outcome of a court case. However, they do not do so on the basis of the substantive merits of the case. They can therefore not substantiate their predictions in a legally sound manner, while that is required for all legal proceedings for each individual case. (…) >The reverse also applies: the human user of such a self-learning system does not understand why the system concludes that there is a link. An administrative organ that partially bases its actions on such a system is unable to properly justify its actions and to properly substantiate its decisions.”" 13,86487,2020-11-09T19:24:47.169Z,14766,1,18,17,1,0,0,28.6,86417,anon3203746736,anon743282938,"Your current case is on behalf of Uber drivers who were fired by algorithm decision making that also significantly identifies the reason as ""fraud"" which triggers deeper problems for the drivers. Uber is famously bad to its drivers, but what is the outcome you hope to achieve with this case? Are you looking to prevent all machine-generated judgements against individuals? Or is your focus on ensuring fair due process for people who are the recipients of such judgements?" 14,86540,2020-11-10T14:36:53.935Z,14766,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,86417,anon2594087572,anon743282938,"What were the biggest challenges in bringing your case to the court? Given anon2696444391 ""blackboxed"" automated systems can be, was it difficult to explain and convince the court about anon2696444391 they work and anon2696444391 they influence people?" 15,86581,2020-11-11T09:03:11.421Z,14766,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,86417,anon4046128282,anon743282938,"Hi @anon743282938! Thank you for sharing your work with us! According to Algorithm Watch, SyRI wants to find “unlikely citizen profiles” - can you tell us more about anon2696444391 those profiles are generated/ anon2696444391 ""likely citizen profiles"" are created? Is this based on historical data about previous welfare/tax fraud? And, does SyRI include sociodemographic data that is unrelated to a history of welfare/tax fraud?" 16,86582,2020-11-11T09:04:44.293Z,14766,0,17,16,1,1,0,8.4,86417,anon4046128282,anon743282938,"[quote=""anon743282938, post:1, topic:14766""] Unfortunately, the Dutch government recently introduced a new legislation with even more intrusive use of personal data for automated decision-making system–the fight continues! [/quote] SyRI already sounded scary! What concerns you the most about this new tool?" 17,86645,2020-11-11T17:31:01.079Z,14766,2,17,16,1,0,0,48.4,86474,anon743282938,anon3379761435,"Hi Alberto! Thanks for your interesting question. The SyRI system was used in ‘SyRI-projects’. These projects were targeted at specific neighborhoods that were considered ‘problem districts’. Therefore, the profiling that took place in SyRI mostly affected groups with a lower socio-economic status and or minority / immigration background. The court also mentions the ‘Echo-chamber’ effect: irregularities in the targeted areas might reinforce a negative image of its occupants. This might lead to stereotyping. The Court’s decision to end the use of SyRI was primarily based on the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). The use of SyRI was insufficiently transparent and verifiable. Also, it violated a number of privacy principles, such as ‘purpose limitation’ and data minimization. Therefore, the use of SyRI cannot always be considered proportionate and necessary." 18,86647,2020-11-11T17:34:38.379Z,14766,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,86480,anon743282938,anon3203746736,"John: Hi John, actually I’m anon2373157426 sure that the government will try to make adjustments to carry on with similar projects. After the judgment was given, the Dutch State decided not to appeal it. At first, my clients were very surprised. However, shortly after that, the government introduced a new legislative proposal that provides a general framework for SyRI like systems. We call it ‘Super SyRI’. Under the new law, risk profiling technologies can be introduced in several domains. The law only provides a general framework. Specific requirements will be set in by ministerial decree, which by itself is problematic from a constitutional perspective." 19,86648,2020-11-11T17:37:32.095Z,14766,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,86417,anon2594087572,anon743282938,"On behalf of @anon3708943593: Where to systems like SyRI originate? Is there a pattern to that? Did it originate w the people subjected to it (government agency) or with others (like digital rights NGOs)? How do we create the necessary ties so that cases not on the radar of tech orgs + wired politicians get addressed as well?" 20,86649,2020-11-11T17:37:53.485Z,14766,2,18,17,2,1,0,53.6,86645,anon3379761435,anon743282938,"[quote=""anon743282938, post:17, topic:14766""] These projects were targeted at specific neighborhoods that were considered ‘problem districts’. [/quote] Here I have two further questions (sorry, Ananon2863106368!). 1. On the basis of what information were they considered ""problem districts""? 2. I can imagine the following mechanism for unfairly affecting the groups you mention: if you look for irregularities, you tend to find them (with some probability). According to some observers, the American police searches mostly black young men, which results in black young men accounting for a disproportionately high number of positive searches (and also negative ones). Was this what worried the courts? Solution: unleash SyRI on randomly chosen citizens. [quote=""anon743282938, post:17, topic:14766""] The use of SyRI was insufficiently transparent and verifiable. Also, it violated a number of privacy principles, such as ‘purpose limitation’ and data minimization. [/quote] Clear, thanks." 21,86650,2020-11-11T17:37:54.261Z,14766,1,18,17,1,0,0,43.6,86421,anon743282938,anon3912112492,"Hey there Jeremy! Currently, there is no connection to the Free Software / Open Source movement. However, certain aspects of algorithmic decision might be addressed in a way that resembles the ‘open source approach’. I’m thinking about standards for anon2696444391 to prevent bias and discrimination, anon2696444391 to assess the impact of algorithms and anon2696444391 to explain the outcomes. Such standards might be assessed and improved within the public domain. There are many different societal contexts and use cases that would have to be addressed, for instance financial sector, automotive, health care, et. Does that seem plausible to you?" 22,86652,2020-11-11T17:43:23.086Z,14766,0,18,17,2,0,0,43.6,86649,anon743282938,anon3379761435,"1. We don't know that. The court actually asked the State to clarify anon2696444391 the decision about what neighbourhoods to target is made but - in my opinion - the State failed to provide a clear explanation. 2. Yes, that is exactly the 'echo-chamber'-effect I was referring to. Chosing citizend randomly would solve that problem, but I guess that would not fit in the governments agenda." 23,86653,2020-11-11T17:45:38.420Z,14766,0,18,17,1,0,0,53.6,86487,anon743282938,anon3203746736,"The software used by Uber has similarities with SyRI but is much more intrusive because of the amount of data and the possible consequences for drivers. On behalf of the drivers, I have filed two requests. The first request regards Uber’s duty of transparency. The main goal is to empower the drivers by giving them access to their data. This allows them – among other things – to united and build collective bargaining power. In doing so, the drivers are supported by the Platform Info Exchange. The second request concerns the practice of dismissing drivers automatically for suspicion of fraud. The drivers claim that Uber infranon2945747231s upon their right not to be subject to automated decisions, unless specific conditions are met." 24,86654,2020-11-11T17:46:13.185Z,14766,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,86417,anon4046128282,anon743282938,You mentioned that you challenged SyRI on grounds of privacy violations. Can you explain anon2696444391 exactly SyRI violated privacy (and not just equality)? 25,86655,2020-11-11T17:46:48.185Z,14766,2,18,17,1,0,0,48.6,86649,anon2594087572,anon3379761435,"Bias may be mitigated with some degree of randomised application, but I'm curious what you @anon743282938 think about *whether* individuals' likelihood of committing welfare fraud can be predicted from data collected in government records. And even if those predictions are ""good enough,"" is that enough justification for pooling personal data from government agencies?" 26,86656,2020-11-11T17:48:29.946Z,14766,2,17,16,1,0,0,63.4,86417,anon2835458983,anon743282938,"Congratulations on your recent success, @anon743282938. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on what could be proposed in terms of policy at the European level to protect EU citizens against similar infranon2945747231ments of privacy rights by their own governments." 27,86657,2020-11-11T17:52:32.487Z,14766,0,16,15,1,0,0,53.2,86648,anon743282938,anon2594087572,"Hi Kate! Hard to say. Within government, there seems to be a widespread belief that societal problems can be solved through data analysis. Before we went to court, the coalition that started the case initiated talks with the ministry of Social Security. The people we talked to didn't seem to understand the privacy and other human rights issues. In the past few years, following a number of scandals, public opinion and general awareness have shifted, but I think there is still a strong undercurrent of 'law and order' arguments. After the SyRI judgment, members of parliament seem to be more aware of the legal problems. So, bringing cases like this might actually help :slight_smile:" 28,86658,2020-11-11T17:52:38.903Z,14766,1,15,14,1,1,0,28.0,86655,anon3379761435,anon2594087572,"[quote=""anon2594087572, post:25, topic:14766, full:true""] Bias may be mitigated with some degree of randomised application, but I’m curious what you @anon743282938 think about *whether* individuals’ likelihood of committing welfare fraud can be predicted from data collected in government records. And even if those predictions are “good enough,” is that enough justification for pooling personal data from government agencies? [/quote] Second that. It is a very interesting, and tricky, question." 29,86659,2020-11-11T17:54:03.463Z,14766,1,15,14,1,0,0,43.0,86540,anon743282938,anon2594087572,"Hi Kate. There were several challenges. First, it took a lot of effort for the plaintiffs (the privacy organizations) to unite and form a coalition. Fortunately, the Digital Freedom Fund (DFF) provided financial support. Before going to trial, we attempted to gain access to the algorithm and the ‘indicators’ that were used by the government via a Freedom of Information Request (‘FOIA’). This took a lot of time, mainly because the State didn’t comply with legal deadlines and, in the end, provided anon2488317424 relevant information. I think the court struggled to understand the technical aspects of SyRI, partly because the Dutch state didn’t provide enough detailed information. However, this probably worked in our favor. The court seemed to be well aware of the societal relevance of the case. In this respect, the ‘amicus brief’, that was drafted by the UN Special Rapporteur on poverty and human rights certainly helped." 30,86660,2020-11-11T17:55:52.507Z,14766,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,86659,anon2594087572,anon743282938,"Thanks Ananon2863106368 :) For those of you who are interested, you can read the Special Rapporteur's amicus curiae [here](https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Poverty/Amicusfinalversionsigned.pdf)." 31,86661,2020-11-11T17:57:01.523Z,14766,0,15,14,1,1,0,23.0,86656,anon3379761435,anon2835458983,"[quote=""anon2835458983, post:26, topic:14766""] what could be proposed in terms of policy at the European level to protect EU citizens against similar infranon2945747231ments of privacy rights by their own governments. [/quote] Second @anon2835458983. Welcome, by the way!" 32,86662,2020-11-11T17:57:35.093Z,14766,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,86654,anon743282938,anon4046128282,"Hi anon4046128282, The SyRI legislation infranon2945747231d privacy rights in several ways. First, there was no clear description of goals and data categories. Also, the Dutch State did not comply with its duty of transparancy." 33,86663,2020-11-11T18:01:00.466Z,14766,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,86658,anon743282938,anon3379761435,"I guess it depends on the data and on the indicators used. To make good predictions you need reliable data and strong indicators. And that is a big problem if you use data from government databases, because that data is often not reliable. Garbage in = garbage out." 34,86664,2020-11-11T18:03:25.933Z,14766,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,86417,anon4046128282,anon743282938,"Out of curiosity, what were the core arguments the Dutch government offered for deploying these algorithms? What, in your view, is the best argument the Dutch government made in this context?" 35,86665,2020-11-11T18:10:35.006Z,14766,0,16,15,1,0,0,38.2,86664,anon743282938,anon4046128282,"The State argued that SyRI was necessary for preventing and combating fraud in the interest of economic welfare. The Court agreed that this is an important interest of society. However, the State failed to demonstrated that SyRI was a proportionate means to reach this goal." 36,86666,2020-11-11T18:12:20.807Z,14766,2,16,15,1,1,0,48.2,86663,anon3379761435,anon743282938,"[quote=""anon743282938, post:33, topic:14766""] To make good predictions you need reliable data and strong indicators. And that is a big problem if you use data from government databases, because that data is often not reliable. [/quote] That depends on what we mean by ""a good prediction"", @anon743282938. If we are happy with being ""good"" (outperforming randomness) at the aggregate level, we might need very anon2488317424 data. For example, in predicting the outcome of football matches, the simplest model ""the home team always wins"" does (a anon2488317424) better than random. Hal Varian (Google's chief economist) a few years ago went on record saying ""if you have 99% correlation, who cares about causation"", or something like that. But this extra performance only applies to predicting a whole lot of football matches (the population), while being useless if you are trying to predict one match in particular. I think @anon2594087572 worries that prejudices outperform randomness. *If you don't care about fairness and the rights of the individual*, you could indeed predict that the poorer neighbors would have more social welfare fraud than rich ones. But this would come at the expense of treating poorer individuals fairly, and, unlike with football matches, it would end up reinforcing the conditions that force those people to apply for welfare in the first place." 37,86667,2020-11-11T18:18:22.625Z,14766,3,15,14,1,0,0,68.0,86666,anon743282938,anon3379761435,"Interesting point. Taking the possible consequences for citizens in account, the predictions should actually be much better than just 'good'. If 2% procent of the outcomes are wrong, this is already effecting a large number of people. This raises the question if decisions by government about fraud can ever be left to algorithms alone. Maybe, human interference should be mandatory." 38,86668,2020-11-11T18:23:35.269Z,14766,2,16,15,1,0,0,63.2,86417,anon3203746736,anon743282938,"One of SyRI's stated goals is to find ""tax fraud."" Tax fraud, as a category involves every strata of income and society. But did the government only train SyRI's onto more marginal neighborhoods?" 39,86669,2020-11-11T18:25:30.886Z,14766,1,15,14,2,1,0,18.0,86667,anon3379761435,anon743282938,"[quote=""anon743282938, post:37, topic:14766""] Taking the possible consequences for citizens in account, the predictions should actually be much better than just ‘good’. If 2% procent of the outcomes are wrong, this is already effecting a large number of people. [/quote] I like this argument. I guess the proponents of systems like SyRI would reply that existing non-algorithmic systems are also bad at predicting fraud (worse, in fact). So, you would need to put a premium on fairness over effectiveness in order to defend the position you had in the SyRI case." 40,86670,2020-11-11T18:26:17.985Z,14766,2,15,14,1,0,0,48.0,86667,anon2594087572,anon743282938,"Exactly. It's not just about the rigor of the predictiveness of the system, but also the immediate and far-reaching consequences of error rates: false positive means that people who need welfare benefits don't receive it. Also, hard to hypothesize likelihood of welfare fraud in rich neighborhoods lol. To be fair, SyRI's scope was for both welfare and tax fraud, but I maintain that the context/scope/impact of tax fraud in poor neighborhoods are incomparable to affluent ones." 41,86671,2020-11-11T18:26:46.393Z,14766,1,16,15,1,0,0,43.2,86668,anon743282938,anon3203746736,Good point. One could ask why SyRI was not used in the richer neighbourhoods. That might actually result in much more fraud being detected. Of course we didn't make this argument in court. Rich people have a right to privacy too :slight_smile: 42,86672,2020-11-11T18:29:14.512Z,14766,0,15,14,1,0,0,38.0,86669,anon743282938,anon3379761435,"True, but 'existing non-algorithmic systems' basically depend on human decisions. This makes it possible to talk to a human being. Algorithms cannot yet explain their reasoning." 43,86673,2020-11-11T18:31:05.391Z,14766,3,16,15,1,0,0,53.2,86670,anon743282938,anon2594087572,"Ok, but if you catch one rich person for tax evasion, that might be equal to ten cases of social security fraud." 44,86674,2020-11-11T18:32:51.715Z,14766,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,86673,anon2594087572,anon743282938,That's what I mean! 45,86675,2020-11-11T18:34:55.528Z,14766,2,16,15,1,1,0,18.2,86673,anon3379761435,anon743282938,"[quote=""anon743282938, post:43, topic:14766, full:true""] Ok, but if you catch one rich person for tax evasion, that might be equal to ten cases of social security fraud. [/quote] Ha. The expected value of catching an offender correlates positively with the income of the people being searched. I guess if you train an AI on the sums claimed back, rather than on the number of offenses, it will zero in on the rich folks. :smiley: I need to go, but thanks so much Ananon2863106368 for your time. This was very, very interesting, I'll think about it more." 46,86676,2020-11-11T18:36:32.478Z,14766,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,86671,anon3203746736,anon743282938,"As I recall, Article 8 also gives some protections from profiling in the form of 'fishing expeditions'. It was not part of your argument, but in the future when or if they reinstate a more transparent version of SyRI, it could perhaps be a valid argument." 47,86677,2020-11-11T18:36:52.675Z,14766,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,86675,anon743282938,anon3379761435,Thanks everybody! I need to go as well. See you later... 48,86678,2020-11-11T18:38:21.347Z,14766,0,17,16,1,0,0,38.4,86676,anon743282938,anon3203746736,In fact we did use this argument. We argued that a system like SyRI can never meet the proportionality requirement because it is an 'untargeted' instrument. 49,86679,2020-11-11T18:39:12.507Z,14766,1,15,14,1,0,0,58.0,86417,anon743282938,anon743282938,"Really have to go now. Feel free to send me an email, should you have any questions in the future: ananon2863106368@anon" 50,86680,2020-11-11T18:39:12.711Z,14766,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,86677,anon4046128282,anon743282938,@anon743282938 thank you so much! 51,86682,2020-11-11T18:43:25.669Z,14766,0,14,13,2,0,0,57.8,86679,anon2594087572,anon743282938,"Thank you everyone for the generative discussion, especially @anon743282938 for sharing his experience and insights with us! Do keep up the discussion/comments/questions with each other, and please feel free to reach out to Ananon2863106368 directly." 52,87058,2020-11-16T19:27:24.804Z,14766,0,12,11,130,14,0,697.4,86417,anon3379761435,anon743282938,"## The AMA with Ananon2863106368 Ekker: an overview and some questions Ananon2863106368 Ekker, a lawyer, fought in court the use of the Dutch government's risk scoring algorithm to detect welfare fraud. We at Edgeryders organized an AMA with him to learn more about the case. This post summarizes the discussion we had during the AMA. The full discussion is [above it](/t/14766/1). At the end of the post, you will find a list of questions raised by the AMA, but left without an answer. Can you help us answer them? [quote=""anon743282938, post:1, topic:14766""] In 2014, the Dutch government introduced a legislation approving the use of a risk scoring algorithm to detect welfare fraud. This system, called System Risk Indication (SyRI), pools together data from various government agencies to calculate the likelihood of committing welfare or tax fraud. The UN Special Rapporteur on Extreme Poverty and Human Rights has described governments’ use of similar systems as “[digital welfare states ](https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Poverty/A_74_48037_AdvanceUneditedVersion.docx)” and condemned them for their lack of transparency and oversight, and discriminatory impacts. In the case of SyRI, we discovered that the system used neighbourhood data to profile against migrant and poor communities. With a coalition of privacy organisations, we challenged SyRI on grounds of privacy and equality violations. Earlier this year, the Dutch court found SyRI to be unlawful and ordered its immediate halt. You can read more [here ](https://algorithmwatch.org/en/story/syri-netherlands-algorithm/) and [here ](https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBDHA:2020:1878). [/quote] ## Why the algorithm was deemed to be unfair? The court observed that SyRI was not comprehensively sweeping the Dutch society. Rather, the government aimed it at poor districts. [quote=""anon743282938, post:17, topic:14766""] The SyRI system was used in ‘SyRI-projects’. These projects were targeted at specific neighborhoods that were considered ‘problem districts’. Therefore, the profiling that took place in SyRI mostly affected groups with a lower socio-economic status and or minority / immigration background. [/quote] In his book [Radicalized](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalized_(Doctorow_book)), Cory Doctorow has a great explanation of why AI trained on law enforcement data tend to be biased: > ""Because cops only find crime where they look for it. If you make every Black person you see turn out their pockets, you will find every knife and every dime-baggie that any Black person carries, but that doesn’t tell you anything about whether Black people are especially prone to carrying knives or drugs, especially when cops make quota by carrying around a anon2488317424 something to plant if need be."" > >“What’s more, we know that Black people are more likely to be arrested for stuff that white people get a pass on, like ‘blocking public sidewalks.’ White guys who stop outside their buildings to have a smoke or just think about their workdays don’t get told to move along, or get ticketed, or get searched. Black guys do. So any neighborhood with Black guys in it will look like it’s got an epidemic of sidewalk-blocking, but it really has an epidemic of overpolicing."" ## ""It mat be unfair, but it works"". Or? We had an interesting discussion about the effectiveness of SyRI. The court itself admitted that [quote=""anon3203746736, post:12, topic:14766""] >There are predictive algorithms which are fairly accurate in predicting the outcome of a court case. [...] So, it’s bad to profile people, but it works pretty well. [/quote] [quote=""anon2594087572, post:25, topic:14766""] I’m curious what you @anon743282938 think about *whether* individuals’ likelihood of committing welfare fraud can be predicted from data collected in government records. [/quote] Such effective prediction is probably unadmissible in court, because it is not based on ""substantive merits of the case"", but rather on observable variables that correlate statistically with those substantive merits. We discovered that this effectiveness was not neutral, but deployed disproportionately against disadvantaged citizens in another dimension: [quote=""anon3203746736, post:38, topic:14766""] One of SyRI’s stated goals is to find “tax fraud.” Tax fraud, as a category involves every strata of income and society. [/quote] If you train an algorithm to maximize potential *tax* fraud, it will almost certainly zero in on rich people. This is simply a feature of the mathematical landscape: the higher your gross income, the higher your potential for tax fraud. [quote=""anon3379761435, post:45, topic:14766""] The expected value of catching an offender correlates positively with the income of the people being searched. I guess if you train an AI on the sums claimed back, rather than on the number of offenses, it will zero in on the rich folks. :smiley: [/quote] Moreover, if you trained the whole of SyRI to maximize the overall monetary value to the state (social welfare detection fraud + tax fraud) it would probably still target the rich, because [quote=""anon743282938, post:43, topic:14766""] if you catch one rich person for tax evasion, that might be equal to ten cases of social security fraud. [/quote] ## Even if it works in the aggregate, it can still be very bad for individuals AIs are trained on datasets, and evaluated on anon2696444391 well they perform *on average*. They do not need to be accurate, they just need to be a bit more accurate than the alternative. In machine learning, the alternative is normally standardized to random selection. To be useful to the Dutch state, SyRI only need to detect more fraud than checking citizens at random. That's a low bar to clear. [quote=""anon3379761435, post:36, topic:14766""] If we are happy with being “good” (outperforming randomness) at the aggregate level, we might need very anon2488317424 data. For example, in predicting the outcome of football matches, the simplest model “the home team always wins” does (a anon2488317424) better than random. Hal Varian (Google’s chief economist) a few years ago went on record saying “if you have 99% correlation, who cares about causation”, or something like that. But this extra performance only applies to predicting a whole lot of football matches (the population), while being useless if you are trying to predict one match in particular. I think @anon2594087572 worries that prejudices outperform randomness. *If you don’t care about fairness and the rights of the individual* , you could indeed predict that the poorer neighbors would have more social welfare fraud than rich ones. But this would come at the expense of treating poorer individuals fairly, and, unlike with football matches, it would end up reinforcing the conditions that force those people to apply for welfare in the first place. [/quote] The thing is, the consequences of a SyRI error could be dire for a person. Defending yourself against allegations of fraud costs time and effort, and often money. [quote=""anon743282938, post:37, topic:14766""] aking the possible consequences for citizens in account, the predictions should actually be much better than just ‘good’. If 2% procent of the outcomes are wrong, this is already effecting a large number of people. This raises the question if decisions by government about fraud can ever be left to algorithms alone. Maybe, human interference should be mandatory. [/quote] [quote=""anon2594087572, post:40, topic:14766""] False positives means that people who need welfare benefits don’t receive them. [/quote] ## Open questions The AMA session raised more question than we could address in one hour. Here's a stab at listing the remaining loose ends. Do you have any information or want to share an opinion about any of them? ### 1. Standards for anon2696444391 to prevent bias and discrimination [quote=""anon743282938, post:21, topic:14766""] certain aspects of algorithmic decision might be addressed in a way that resembles the ‘open source approach’. I’m thinking about standards for anon2696444391 to prevent bias and discrimination, anon2696444391 to assess the impact of algorithms and anon2696444391 to explain the outcomes. Such standards might be assessed and improved within the public domain. There are many different societal contexts and use cases that would have to be addressed, for instance financial sector, automotive, health care, et. Does that seem plausible to you? [/quote] ### 2. A trustmark for AI [quote=""anon659222949, post:3, topic:14766""] At the NGI Forum last year, Nesta hosted [a discussion on a potential “NGI Trustmark”](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/ngi-trustmark-notes-from-ngi-forum-workshop/10883/4) for AI. [...] How do you think this could work in practice? And is a Trustmark a good idea, or is it a waste of effort? Another idea [...]: that any AI trained on public data or data acquired in a public setting must be released to the public, by EU law. What do you think about that proposal? [/quote] ### 3. European-level protection against AI abuse by government [quote=""anon2835458983, post:26, topic:14766""] I was wondering if you have any thoughts on what could be proposed in terms of policy at the European level to protect EU citizens against similar infranon2945747231ments of privacy rights by their own governments. [/quote] ### 4. ""They keep coming"" The SyRI case is a bit special, in that one of the parties was the Dutch state. The state is subject to the law... but, unlike the NGOs on the other side of the case, it also makes its own laws. So, it does not have to win in a court battle; another way to win is to simply change the law. Given all this, can human rights activists really win these battles in the long run? If not, what else can be done? [quote=""anon743282938, post:18, topic:14766""] I’m anon2373157426 sure that the government will try to make adjustments to carry on with similar projects. After the judgment was given, the Dutch State decided not to appeal it. At first, my clients were very surprised. However, shortly after that, the government introduced a new legislative proposal that provides a general framework for SyRI like systems. We call it ‘Super SyRI’. Under the new law, risk profiling technologies can be introduced in several domains. The law only provides a general framework. Specific requirements will be set in by ministerial decree, which by itself is problematic from a constitutional perspective. [/quote]" 53,88598,2020-12-08T09:29:01.370Z,14766,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,86417,anon1753543892,anon743282938,"Check out our next AMA: # On the 9th of December 18:30 to 19:30 psychologist Erik Bohjort joins for an AMA. * Would you wish you could change your own behaviour sometimes? * Are you wondering anon2696444391 much technology is actually ok for your children, and if and anon2696444391 they can learn with digital tools? * Are you developing an app, website, project to change and improve the world, and want to know anon2696444391 to best influence behaviour or anon2696444391 to nudge? * Do you have your own insights and/or issues (2020 has been hard on everyone...) you just really would like to discuss with a psychologist? ## Then you are in luck! Erik (@anon His background also includes experience as the Head of Research at Gimi AB (an educational FinTech application to teach financial literacy to children) and as a Psychologist at Akademiska Sjukhuset in the Neuropsychiatric Unit. # **His research explores topics such as:** ### Behaviour change, Digital education, Behavioural insights, Nudging, Psychology # *For one hour he will be available to answer all of your questions and engage in discussions, conversations and maybe even a bit of therapy with you.* # [Register here](https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/14917) to get a reminder before the event and join the AMA chat. # The live chat will happen here, where Erik personally introduced himself: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/i-m-erik-bohjort-psychologist-nudger-and-digital-behaviour-change-enthusiast-ask-me-anything-about-behaviour-psychology-and-tech/15076" 54,91866,2021-02-16T20:10:29.092Z,14766,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,86417,anon3379761435,anon743282938,"Bumping this up because the Dutch are at it again. Now they use dual nationality as a proxy of likelihood of fraud by parents receiving child care subsidies. ""Ethnic profiling is easy to do with proxy variables"", as someone noted on Twitter. Very difficult to change the logic. https://nos.nl/artikel/2366962-algoritmes-zoeken-naar-bijstand-fraudeurs-welke-rol-speelt-etnisch-profileren.html" 1,86471,2020-11-09T15:04:08.769Z,14772,0,20,19,10,0,0,69.0,86471,anon2559300400,anon2559300400,"Hi partners! Let's use this thread to post our approximately 1 page reflections on the key topics we've discovered in each of our research so far, as we just agreed in the taskforce meeting. Just reply to this post to add your own. For example ours, which we will post soon, will be a summary of our [preliminary ethnographic findings](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/ngi-ethnography-preliminary-findings-october-2020/14542). Looking forward to reading your responses!" 2,86473,2020-11-09T16:07:20.325Z,14772,1,19,18,2,0,0,48.8,86471,anon2564390055,anon2559300400,"Here are Nesta's ideas, can't wait to see yours! **Environmental impact of devices**: EU citizens replace their smartphones on average every two years, creating 60-80kg CO2 equivalent emissions for each of the 200 million devices purchased annually. 85-95% of the lifetime emissions of a smartphone are created before the device reaches its owner, and many devices are replaced before they are unrepairable because it is difficult and expensive to repair them. The EU could make devices last longer if it required manufacturers to make them easier to repair, provide repair manuals and parts, and extend software updates to five years or more. Increasing the lifetime of each device will have a significant impact on the environmental impact of the internet, and there is space for us to usefully contribute. High-profile efforts to improve the situation are underway, including the Right to Repair campaign, but these changes will require wide-ranging support from innovators, experts, consumers and policymakers. We can provide data, insight and policy ideas that could be useful in helping to create change. **Related**: Minimising data storage and transmission: Can we extend the principle of “Data minimisation” as set out in the GDPR to also become an environmental objective? How do we reduce the footprint of data held in data centres, but also of our individual use? Can existing processes like ML, internet search be made greener? **New data governance models**: We see a flurry of innovation in the data governance space, with new models like data trusts, data commons and anon3983078393ship all gaining more traction (see for example the EC’s Data Governance Act released on 11/11). Moving beyond just regulating the data economy, these new, more equitable and accountable models for owning and sharing data could help democratise access and give citizens more control over what happens to their personal data. In the vision paper, we propose a model combining data commons and self-sovereign identities to create a “decentralised data lake” for trusted solutions to tap into on the terms of the user (tentatively called the ‘European Democratic Data Space’ or ‘EDDS’); it would be particularly interested to study the language around these various models (given there is a lot of muddled language going on there right now - and spot emerging dynamics and communities). **Open-source technology ecosystem**: We would like to study which role the European Commission can play in building a strong ecosystem of open technology/open source solutions to compete with dominant centralised actors (move from a protocol to a platform economy). We want to look specifically at anon2696444391 the use of open source can be promoted across layers of governance (city-level up to the Commission itself), anon2696444391 to bring robustness/harness interoperability and portability, and whether there could be interesting models the Commission could use to help ensure maintenance and scaling of funded tools (launching a FOSS fund, or an Open Technology Fund for example). I imagine this one would be pretty tricky to study from a data point of view, but perhaps we can do some more ethnographic research there or workshops with open source developers/policymakers? **Impact of the internet on democracy**: As a particularly fractious US election comes to an end, it is clear we continue to grapple with the impact the internet, and large social media platforms, in particular, are having on our democracies and cohesion of our societies. We need to better understand the underlying black-box nature of the algorithms that govern what we see and read online (and why they tend to, for example, promote harmful conspiracy content) and address the enormous power wielded by just a couple of dominant, unaccountable intermediaries to shape public opinion and direct information flows. Building a more democratic internet also requires levelling the playing field in the digital economy and giving citizens more ownership over the future direction of travel of emerging technologies and fostering collective intelligence (all discussed in much detail in the vision paper). **Impact of the internet on physical/public space**: New technologies like facial recognition, AR and constant tracking and surveillance threaten to radically change the ways in which we can interact in the physical space, taking away agency and reciprocity/the ability to consent from citizens. But technology’s impact on our physical spaces goes beyond just serious concerns about privacy: digital technologies are encroaching on our public spaces; exploitative digital labour practices are worsening conditions in the barely-holding-on economy, and dominant internet economy business models extract value from our local economies, while negatively impacting the livability and affordability of our cities/regions. What can policymakers on all levels of governance do to restore the balance? **Runner-up**: reconsidering the digital divide post-COVID." 3,86517,2020-11-10T11:55:02.822Z,14772,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,86473,anon2559300400,anon2564390055,"Edgeryders (written from the perspective of community members' experiences with these topics): **Online shift's effect on offline space and sociality** The pandemic has intensified a process that many community members felt was already occurring: a sense of disappearance of work-life separation, mediated by the dissolution of public-private boundaries enabled by the internet (in part due to a sense of technology being ""always on"" and increased feelings of surveillance at work). New configurations of offline-online work and leisure time, like [work-life balance vs work-life integration ](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/remote-work-for-everyone-what-we-stand-to-gain/14192/35), have been topics of discussion. Part of the impact of covid-19 has been a shift to online and a corresponding sense of loss: of public space, of social engagement, with mental health impacts. One way of addressing this has been to seek a sense of community by reworking offline spaces to increase social interaction even as work and education increasingly shifts online. These are connected to larger questions about imagining the future and building alternatives: the Next Generation Internet is about more than just online social dynamics, and what we bring to bear on it is this question of what it does to communities, anon2696444391 we make them, and anon2696444391 we imagine other worlds together, through our everyday engagements with internet technology and its impacts. ![Screenshot 2020-10-05 at 11.00.11|690x558](upload://v6iYh3D5yl8mPXDEOkPflWfydqK.png) Work-life balance is diversifying, so workspaces won’t all look the same, and because of the capacities of online communication, we can potentially begin to radically rethink what a workspace is, to make it more conducive for the well-being of more people (especially if we can resist exploitative surveillance tech). We’re also learning about the limits of online communication – fatigue and capacity. Digital policy is still about holistic human experience, so the internet's effect on public space and its uses are still huge factors in crafting it. **Negotiating Privacy/Personal Data Trade-offs** The crucial subcategory here is the relationship between corporate interest (particularly of ""big tech"" companies) and public good (part of the profit/power nexus discussed in the report). Key topics here include user agency and control and the trade-off that sets up with user experience: anon2696444391 much effort community members without a high level of technological expertise can or want to to put in to controlling their personal data and deciding what trade-offs are worth it. There’s an emergent theme of individualising responsibility: that responses to problems that are created by and large by institutions are being proposed on the individual level (e.g. improving your own privacy settings, making decisions about what you’re willing to trade off, becoming more educated about the promises and perils of online behaviour). Removing this onus from the individual is important, but individuals also feel overwhelmed at the power yielded by large corporations and unable to see where they can meaningfully intervene when they want to. But what about the collective responses that aren’t as institutional, like open source projects and citizen education? Are these the areas we might be able to see people effecting change in — bigger than the individual, but not as daunting as trying to change the behaviour of big corporations head-on? Who owns data is also a key theme here, relating to the issue of data governance and control over personal data. ""Defining terminology"" is a code often tied to some of the models themselves, which indicates that more clarity is needed when entering buzzword territory around data governance models. **The promises and possible shortcomings of Open Source technology.** Open Source is a hot topic on the platform, discussed by a wide range of community members (from grassroots activists to academics, technologists and beyond). Questions emerge around whether open source solutions can lead to greater empowerment, human-centred design, and imagining other alternatives to the status quo (of ""big tech"" control). ![Screenshot 2020-10-05 at 10.49.23|690x505](upload://xbiKTiFLfdXNRrN8rf39ARDl5zD.png) Follow-ups emerge from this: anon2696444391 accessible are these collective responses (e.g. are open source movements accessible to more than just a small amount of homogenous people in terms of socioeconomic demographics? Do these citizen education projects still serve to shift focus and blame away from big tech/corporations, or do they offer another way forward in terms of collective action?) **Algorithms, AI and Regulation** Content moderation, misinformation, safety, inequality, transparency, and oversight all come up in relationship to artificial intelligence and algorithms. Understanding anon2696444391 community members discern the truth (related to issues of information quality and access) has been a key theme on the platform, and one only growing with both the US election results and increasing regulations around covid-19 and contact tracing. These concepts are also related to smart cities and human rights, as sensing and tracking technologies in smart cities are tied to a question of whether to trust data-gathering government tech or resist these sensing technologies and automated decision-making systems -- and if the latter, anon2696444391 to do so. ![image|505x515](upload://oV5qfJaw7McKsGCl6SfgVJV9oCm.png) **Runner up: environmentalism and internet technology** We could possibly still focus on this, since Green New Deal topics are rapidly expanding on platform. The physical waste produced by digital technologies as well as the possibility of online shifts having a positive effect on climate change (lowering emissions and reducing carbon footprints) are topics of discussion. ![image|601x247](upload://tt6qFpMC7YA6pIpwaLQUXHkCiHv.png)" 4,86718,2020-11-12T06:56:53.757Z,14772,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,86517,anon810936165,anon2559300400,"**Topics from Aarhus University** We have made a selection of topics based on last year's D1.13, D.1.9 and the insights gathered through this year’s workshop. In order to select only 5 topics, we have looked at the overlap between the 8 NGI goals and the group discussion that came up during the workshop. This year, we had 6 different groups, and the prompt for discussion was to choose an example from the last two years in which human-centered values or democratic principles had been affected. Like this, the discussion was directed but not constrained according to previous results. **From the workshop D1.9** 8 selected key topics: ● Trustworthy Information Flows ● Decentralised Power on the Internet ● Personal Data Control ● Sustainable and Climate-friendly Internet ● Safer Online Environments ● An Inclusive Internet ● Competitive European Ecosystems ● Ethical Internet Technology **1. Ethical Internet Technology** Last year, one of the 8 NGI goals arising from the analysis and the workshop was concerned ethical internet technology. This is anon2373157426 a broad topic that came up again during this year’s workshop, reflected in different subtopics chosen by the different discussion groups (3 out of 6 groups). In particular, groups highlighted areas such as video surveillance, implementation of internet technology, and discrimination resulting from algorithmic decision-making as areas of high priority for the next years. Overall, we can take the motto ‘moving fast and breaking things’ as a reflection of the attitude that needs to be seriously reconsidered. Some of the policies and regulations that were proposed around these areas include correcting the data collection imbalance, increasing the diversity at the higher level of policy making, and including mandatory ethics education in technical studies (i.e., computer scientists, engineers, etc). In addition to focusing on diversity to decrease discrimination bias, special emphasis was placed on the importance of testing decision-making algorithms and setting up requirements for public debates and transparency before implementation. *Challenges discussed in the second workshop within this topic:* Video surveillance (for decision-making), Implementing technology without proper discussions and transparency, Descriminating Algorithmic decision-making *Methods:* output of workshop D1.14 and workshop D1.9. At workshop D1.14, we split the participants into 6 groups, where each could choose a topic for discussion. 3 of the 6 groups had a topic in this category. The topic was one of 8 selected topics of the workshop D1.9. *We think it is important, because:* ethics is the fundament for identifying European values and solving social issues, which is one of the main objectives of the project (objective 2 in the grant agreement part B). **2. An Inclusive Internet** Last year, limited access to the internet was highlighted as one of the problematic areas, referring to half of the population still being offline, and urban areas being better connected than rural. Many disabled people also are excluded from using online information and services, so inclusive infrastructures and tools are needed to remove barriers and create an inclusive and accessible Internet for all. This year we saw this topic resurface in several of the discussions (2 out of 6 groups), in particular referring to the many internet shutdowns carried out by governments to suppress protests or movements in 2020. According to Human Rights Watch, this has occurred in Bangladesh, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Sudan Myanmar and Zimbabwe. Possible solutions suggested during the expert workshop included the development of international legislation and centralising the point of control to the international neutral level. *Challenges discussed in the second workshop within this topic:* Unstable and no access to the internet, Shut down of internet by governments to suppress protests or movements. *Methods:* output of workshop D1.14 and workshop D1.9. At workshop D1.14, we split the participants into 6 groups, where each could choose a topic for discussion. 2 of the 6 groups had a topic in this category and the topic came up in a third group as well. The topic was one of 8 selected topics of the workshop D1.9. *We think it is important, because:* inclusivity is one of the European values mentioned in the grant agreement (Annex 1, p. 4). **3. Trustworthy Information Flows (Democracy, fake news and the internet)** It is widely recognised that trustworthy information flows are essential for healthy democracies, and this year’s covid crisis and the associated infodemic has given us a new perspective of the importance of reliable information. While the spread of disinformation did not arise as one of the preferred topics for discussion among the 6 groups, we asked explicitly about the best strategy to combat misinformation in a quiz to be completed at the individual level. There, the majority of responders chose the option referred to gaining a better understanding of why people share fake news (34.8%), followed by counteracting with accurate information (17.4%) and developing better fake news detection algorithms (8.7%). This further relates to other democracy threats mentioned above, governmental censorship and large-scale content moderation by online platforms. *Challenges discussed in the second workshop within this topic:* Shut down of internet by governments to suppress protests or movements *Methods:* output of workshop D1.14 and workshop D1.9. At workshop D1.14, we split the participants into 6 groups, where each could choose a topic for discussion. 1 of the 6 groups had a topic in this category. The topic was one of 8 selected topics of the workshop D1.9. *We think it is important, because:* trustworthiness is one of the European values mentioned in the grant agreement (Annex 1, p. 4). **4. Decentralised Power on the Internet and personal data control** The internet of today is controlled by a handful of giant companies with virtual monopoly control, acting as gatekeepers by enforcing policies on their users. This is one of the 8 NGI topics from last year which resurfaced in this year’s workshop around recent data leaks. In particular, a leak of governmental health data in Finland, where data had been used to blackmail citizens, was used as an example to illustrate this issue. This ties in with personal data control, and solutions proposed evolved around ideas of more efficient data de-anonymisation, the establishment of a human rights to slow down personal data collection, and more accountability at different levels. *Challenges discussed in the second workshop within this topic:* Risk of data leaks. *Methods:* output of workshop D1.14 and workshop D1.9. At workshop D1.14, we split the participants into 6 groups, where each could choose a topic for discussion. 1 of the 6 groups had a topic in this category. The topic was one of 8 selected topics of the workshop D1.9. *We think it is important, because:* decentralisation and promoting privacy are two of the European values mentioned in the grant agreement (Annex 1, p. 4). **5. Safer Online Environments** Cyberviolence and hate speech was also chosen this year as vital in order to build a safer and more human-centric online environment. For this to happen, a range of issues needs to be taken into consideration, including the role of social media providers and the protection of free expression. At the same time, solutions need to be investigated, such as effective moderation or containment procedures, creating useful aid for victims of cyberviolence and enabling law enforcement to take action against offenders. *Challenges discussed in the second workshop within this topic:* How to protect minorities from discrimination and hate speech, and anon2696444391 to provide equal access *Methods:* output of workshop D1.14 (?) and workshop D1.9. At workshop D1.14, we split the participants into 6 groups, where each could choose a topic for discussion. 1 of the 6 groups had a topic in this category. The topic was one of 8 selected topics of the workshop D1.9. *We think it is important, because:* openness is one of the European values mentioned in the grant agreement (Annex 1, p. 4)." 5,86720,2020-11-12T08:35:31.906Z,14772,0,15,14,1,0,0,38.0,86471,anon2705300038,anon2559300400,"5 Topics from the umbranon4205961763 issues presented on fwd.delabapps.eu **Trustworthy information** The spread of fake news, misinformation and the decline of trust in reliable sources create a profound challenge for the functioning of democracies and societies. While regulating platforms or implementing advanced topic filtering algorithms are among possible solutions, bringing back trust to written words may be far more complicated. **Privacy** Much has changed for online privacy in recent years. GDPR was a landmark for personal data protection in the EU and beyond, and the debate is now largely about anon2696444391 to regulate online platforms, not whether regulation is required. However, online privacy is not only threatened by the business models of tech giants, but also by applications like Pegasus and other non-transparent practices of foreign and national agencies. **Climate crisis** Climate change remains humanity’s top challenge, with great impact on technological and social development. Besides already available consumer products, emerging technologies such as AI and quantum computing may play a significant role in reducing the harmful effects of global warming. However, the content crisis on social media divides society by popularising fake news. Therefore, Internet services play a greater role in the fight against climate change that is beyond the carbon footprint of using them. Reducing the spread of fake news and propaganda will be key to build a global consensus in the necessity to take more significant steps. **Competition** The digital transformation has a profound impact on the economy. Platformisation changed the market dynamics, facilitating the development of giant companies. Competition policy became highly relevant not only in the case of existing services (e.g. social media), but also for emerging technologies, such as cryptocurrencies or 5G. While the US has been less active in regulating market competition, e.g. in the case of Facebook acquisition of rival Instagram and Whatsapp, the EU is leading the discussion on ensuring competition in the Digital Single Market. **Ethical AI** The fast development of artificial intelligence algorithms and their increased use in facial recognition and auanon2863106368omous weapons are among the most important identified trends. The use of facial recognition by companies, governments, law enforcement and the military has been in the centre of heated debates. Recent examples, such as Google’s censored search engine developed for the Chinese market (‘Project Dragonfly’), instances of algorithmic bias in criminal cases, racially targeted ads and “differential” pricing, and the use of Facebook data for voter manipulation, all raise serious concerns. Further research is needed in order to develop targeted ethical frameworks for the development and implementation of new technologies. **Other topics:** blockchain (less of a social issue), safer online environment (less policy), democracy (related to trustworthy info)" 6,90970,2021-02-03T15:21:54.788Z,14772,1,13,12,2,0,0,32.6,86471,anon3554654177,anon2559300400,"RD: For me it is anon2373157426 simple and clear, as outlined in the last deliverable: digital identity management." 7,91544,2021-02-10T16:18:45.266Z,14772,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,90970,anon2559300400,anon3554654177,"![image|690x385](upload://dgVmOFvtUOMcQUwofnMlc9cPMd1.png) first draft!" 1,66486,2019-11-30T14:07:08.828Z,12054,0,14,13,9,0,0,137.8,66486,anon2873026556,anon2873026556,"Dear friends, makers, movers and shakers. In the spring of 2016, the weeks after my father passed away, I wrote a pathetic (in its original sense) anon2488317424 essay that I now felt inspired to share with you. Related to [social entrepreneurship](https://anon1577251828.eu/search?q=entrepreneurship), [Assorted thoughts about IT that I wish I knew when growing up](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/assorted-thoughts-about-it-that-i-wish-i-knew-when-growing-up/11985), [attention economy vs ADD](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/my-story-by-cj-sveningsson/11940/6?u=anon2873026556), [Teaching Teachers Open Source](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881) and [Internet of Humans](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internet-of-humans-matchmaking-event-in-stockholm/9705) in general, I share with you my sense of urgency to do good: > Most of you will know what I have gone through recently with my father passing away to cancer. Your thoughts and prayers are deeply appreciated. > > What I haven't shared until now are the thoughts and renewed sense of urgency (and reverence) the ordeal brought to me. As a background, my beloved father was a life-long member of the Gnosjö congregation of the Swedish Alliance Missionary church. There was nothing super-natural about what resonated in me, but reverend Arne Henrysson's memorial service to dad highlighted the meaning of the congregation and prayer. I jest that their friends might pray to Santa Claus, but regardless their thoughts and love for my father and mother are tangible and have carried them. I also got to contemplate the fruits of my dad's life, and it was nice to see gifts in his memory go to [an orphanage in Tanzania](http://www.varberghomeofpeace.org/) my parents visited. The gardens of my father, both material and spiritual, were indeed lovingly cultivated and beautiful to behold. > > The other morning, being as well rested as I can be, I had a frustrating dream. I had constructed a contraption for portable music, stringing together a cassette player with speakers. The friend I sanon2696444391ed it to was unimpressed, trumping me by drawing on greater innovation and produced a much nicer and as affordable contraption based on streaming music and bluetooth speakers. > > The dream was founded in my sense of urgency to just do something about the most glaringly in need people I saw that week - the orphans in Tanzania and the refugees and other marginalized in Sweden. I just wanted to pack a suitcase of raspberry pis and my computer technology education to go help. The dream highlighted to me anon2696444391 that urgency could be mistaken - I would of course like to build on any other efforts being made by others, draw on the innate potential of the receivers and strive towards the greatest result rather than losing myself in pride over my missionary sacrifice. > > We clearly live in the fascinating age *""when wireless is perfectly applied""* ([Nikola Tesla, ""When woman is boss"", 1926](http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1926-01-30.htm)). Innovation, education and change can be spread and reused with minimal effort only limited by anon2696444391 fast humans can adapt. In light of that, I believe the missionary (in the widest sense) and philanthropic roles need to change, but I haven't yet arrived at anon2696444391. That is the thought and question I want to reach out to you - as a community and good individuals, just what do we do now, to feel and achieve good? > > I decided not to go to Tanzania or the Migrationsverket shelters just today, but writing this letter to my best friends and the brightest minds I know felt like the wisest option. Thank you for your condolences, taking part in my thoughts and just being your beautiful selves. > > Related reading: ""[Capitalism is making way for the age of free](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/31/capitalism-age-of-free-internet-of-things-economic-shift)"" *PS. I posted this under IOH, do relabel or move it if you have any more appropriate repository for contributions such as this*" 2,90001,2021-01-19T09:37:05.892Z,12054,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,66486,anon1753543892,anon2873026556,"Dear @anon2873026556, we would like to include your post here in a publication the ""NGI Community Journalism Digest"". If you would like to make any edits to the text before it is included you can do so with no problem by editing your first posts here until the 26th of January :)." 3,90559,2021-01-28T08:11:45.039Z,12054,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,66486,anon1753543892,anon2873026556,"Dear @anon2873026556, i would like to reiterate the question if we can use ypur post in our publication :). All the best :)" 4,90935,2021-02-03T12:51:36.665Z,12054,1,6,5,1,0,0,26.2,90559,anon2873026556,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892 Hmm, no, this was a too personal and slightly rambling post from the beginning. Even if the thoughts in it could be rephrased, I think it's better left out of a formal publication. If you went ahead without my explicit permission, so be it :-) **Edit:** *After talking it over, I'm ok and flattered to have the piece included*" 5,90955,2021-02-03T14:29:02.087Z,12054,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,90935,anon3828707713,anon2873026556,"Hi, as we didn't hear from you I left it out of the formal publication. Hope you don't mind" 6,90957,2021-02-03T14:30:13.683Z,12054,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,90955,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,what I did do is include your name amongst the people who had contributed to the discussion as a thank you. Because your input in different conversations was/is often thought provoking 7,90960,2021-02-03T14:36:37.399Z,12054,1,6,5,1,0,0,26.2,90957,anon2873026556,anon3828707713,"Oh, as just talked it over with @anon1753543892 and got fairly excited, it's a bit of a disappointment. But sometimes practicalities can't be avoided. I'm ok either way. Thank you for your consideration :slight_smile:" 8,90962,2021-02-03T14:38:23.268Z,12054,0,6,5,1,0,0,36.2,90960,anon3828707713,anon2873026556,Woot! Listen if you would like to it would be super and you are not too late - I am curating it/editor and we have the design files- really it's not an issue! 9,90963,2021-02-03T14:40:49.413Z,12054,1,6,5,1,0,0,26.2,66486,anon1753543892,anon2873026556,What I got from our conversation is that @anon2873026556 is now actually happy to be included in the publication this text :). Thank you very much :) 10,90968,2021-02-03T15:17:08.639Z,12054,1,6,5,1,0,0,41.2,90963,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"it's beautiful and poetic so I would love to include it as the closing piece if that is ok with @anon2873026556? let me know what title, short bio and photo I should use for you?" 11,91001,2021-02-03T17:12:21.107Z,12054,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,90968,anon2873026556,anon3828707713,"The draft from @anon1753543892 was all ok, except two minor things: * My last name is spelled ""Sveningsson"", only one 'n' initially * Page 2 was missing the first words of the paragraph I don't have any suitable illustrations right now if layout would merit it (though perhaps this is text-only?). Perhaps you can find suitable stock photo similar to the content on http://www.varberghomeofpeace.org/galleri/ - it would be proper as well as align with questioning the colonialism-tainted ""think of the poor children in Africa""" 1,89309,2021-01-02T22:17:49.346Z,15142,0,31,30,101,0,0,511.2,89309,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![Future of Search|690x388](upload://z469kCQDlecIzc3IK30Pd3foDZZ.gif) # Salon: The Future of Search - January 27 2021 ### This search engine workshop pursues an ambitious EU scenario in which the NGI open access architecture plays a positive role in opening European opportunities in the search domain. *The aim is to develop better search infrastructure solutions and tools and to support EU innovators and enterprises to deploy them as NGI. Collaboration at scale is necessary to build up European digital leadership.* ## 11:00- 17:00: (online) Workshops The Future of Search * **11:00 12:00 CET Search and Ethics** Noémi Ványi @anon Go: https://bbb.tbm.tudelft.nl/b/rob-u1k-4jz-ycj Tell us https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/15143 * **13:00 14:00 CET Search and (hyper) locality** Kickoff by Sarah Hoffman (OpenStreetMap) Go: https://bbb.tbm.tudelft.nl/b/rob-uo4-q1n-ldu Tell us https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/15143 * **15:00 16:00 CET Worksop SEARCH Search and Internet of Things** Kickoff by Michael Christen @anon Go: https://bbb.tbm.tudelft.nl/b/rob-1zv-mco-ci9 Tell us https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/15143 ## 17:00-18:00 (online) Seminar The Future of Search Seminar Register now! https://www.ngi.eu/event/ngi-forward-data-search/?instance_id=434 **Speakers:** * **[Vint Cerf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vint_Cerf) (Google)** * **[Loretta Anania](https://www.dsimanifesto.eu/speakers/loretta-anania/) (EC)** * [Nozha Boujemaa](https://www.linkedin.com/in/nozha-boujemaa-5471ab/) (Median and OECD Network of Experts on AI) * [Michiel Leenaars](https://nlnet.nl/people/leenaars.html) (NGI projects coordinator) * [Pietro Lio’](https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pl219/) (Department of Computer Science and Technology of the University of Cambridge) # Register early: https://app.livestorm.co/made-group/dialogues-on-data-and-search-the-future-of-information-and-search # **On January 27th probe the following questions: :** * What are the key needs for tomorrow’s search and discovery, and anon2696444391 are those algorithms that give ‘top’ results validated? * What are users’ unmet needs? * What happens to the search data? * Whom will profit and who is left behind, and what is the sum effect of that digital exclusion happening repeatedly over time? * How will our diverse human languages play a role in this context, as Europe and the world moves to a single language of zeroes and ones? * Can today’s digital ecosystem be leveraged to offer citizens a fair data deal that leads to reliable and verifiable information and data trusts? * How do individual (eg right to be forgotten) and collective rights (to know) make searching more public, more transparent or more ethical by design? * Is there room for a citizens fair data deal that leads to reliable and verifiable information and data trusts? # Currently, there is no other search/intermediary in play, which means society has no collective ability to influence it, beyond an individuals’ ‘right to be forgotten’. There is no collective ability to act, e.g. to make things more transparent or ethical in design. Users move from private property (the commercial search portal) to private property (the corporate website). In decentralising search and making results machine-processable, there still remains a need to improve discoverability. This can be done through open standards to facilitate open discovery and to foster composability. We can have multiple independent sources of search collaborate without creating a single search authority. # *Ethical search means applying ethical filters to search results, adding mechanisms for collective action to feed those filters, so that as a society we make our digital values visible inside search.* # Instead of lamenting the amount of trust in commercial providers like Amazon (service to trunk) that delivers this UX, we must provide an equally simple and user-friendly societal governance model, as an app. In ‘The Age of Continuous Connection new technologies make 24/7 customer relationships possible. It may be time to change our business model. As Nicolaj Siggelkow and Christian Terwiesch write in HBR May June 2019. “In many cases, what matters most to customers is the amount of energy they have to expend – the less, the better.” # **From this event and online conversations following the webinar, a diverse group of experts will give the EC recommendations for creating viable business models with new applications and services.** We invite experts to give their recommendations for NGI. Three EU funded H2020 projects in this domain join this event: NGI FORWARD, NGI0 Discovery, and NGI Assure. We invite others to also join. The expected outcome is to contribute to the next generation EU research funding, a better understanding and cohesive EU efforts to submit innovative ideas for open calls. Meeting organizers include the IoT Council & Edgeryders for NGI FORWARD, NLnet Foundation for NGI Discovery and Assure and ELONTECH. # WE WANT YOUR INPUT AND IDEAS. Please go here and share them with us: https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/15143 #
**Organizing:** [https://www.theinternetofthings.eu](https://www.theinternetofthings.eu/) [tell.anon1577251828.eu](http://tell.anon1577251828.eu/) ![|32x32](https://research.ngi.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/cropped-ngi-site-icon-1-32x32.png) [NGI – 19 Feb 20](https://research.ngi.eu/) ![|580x350](https://research.ngi.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/policy-lab.jpg) ### [NGI Policy Lab](https://research.ngi.eu/) Find out about new developments, tools and bold ideas shaping the internet's future. [https://nlnet.nl](https://nlnet.nl/) https://nlnet.nl/discovery/ https://nlnet.nl/assure/ [https://www.elontech.org](https://www.elontech.org/) The Salons reflect the views of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of the European Commission but form part of the project’s overarching recommendations for the NGI and future European internet policy. ![Logo.NGI_Forward.CobrandingTag|400x89](upload://sEBDyvjJ8BQa3LIXaBZkgUOGFR5.png) The workshop and your contributions on the platform will be recorded for research purposes. Please read details about that process in this info sheet: [Participant Information Sheet](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/15144). By joining the call you are consenting to the recording as described in the information sheet." 2,89310,2021-01-02T22:21:12.707Z,15142,0,22,21,5,0,0,29.4,89309,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"VIDEO: ![Future of Search|video](upload://lKzr10XFTm78B0JWqjTSjJXs71b.mp4) GIF: ![Future of Search|690x388](upload://z469kCQDlecIzc3IK30Pd3foDZZ.gif) FLYERS: " 6,89822,2021-01-13T11:19:25.379Z,15142,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,89309,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 7,89841,2021-01-13T13:18:34.909Z,15142,1,15,14,2,0,0,48.0,89309,anon2201458628,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
Commercially Dominant Context (and Lack of Algorithmic Agency). Search Engines are primarily geared towards advertising. Search Amazon and you will get the shop not the rainforest. (even Amazon Fire, you'll get an ebook ready). Add into this mix surveillance capitalism which serves me information based on past contexts (ie. what I bought last week, rather than what I'm seeking now). Contextual Search and Algorithmic Agency would allow me to shape the domains in which I seek information, and also the model that the machine has of me to allow for more relevant information streams.

" 8,89913,2021-01-15T14:52:29.039Z,15142,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,89309,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 9,89914,2021-01-15T14:52:56.760Z,15142,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,89309,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 10,90050,2021-01-20T00:05:55.596Z,15142,0,13,12,1,0,0,37.6,89309,anon720388072,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
Many questions, all of which could be raised at this moment, just see that the main current search engines are managed by companies that aim to profit, using proprietary algorithms and software, with opaque interests and functioning, that follow the user and, at the same time, that do not provide any tools to audit what they do exactly with the collected data. Last but not least, there is an increasing risk that these companies will only allow the use of their services to previously identified users, already registered and logged in at the time of use - which implies the need to use another company resource, at least one auxiliary system for registration, which hinders user freedom, increases bandwidth consumption, energy waste with a consequent increase in carbon emissions and also increases the chance of this user being further followed and monitored, having their habits increasingly known and cataloged, which will likely result in a decrease of privacy.

" 11,90188,2021-01-21T16:09:22.521Z,15142,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,89309,anon1254151276,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
Privacy. Google.

" 12,90281,2021-01-22T14:41:21.680Z,15142,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,89309,anon327163970,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
A search/discovery process has many aspects which everyone is reimplementing. To implement those components in an optimal way, we really need groups to specialize on those: transform from monolithic into fragmented solutions.

" 13,90295,2021-01-22T18:00:17.699Z,15142,1,13,12,2,0,0,32.6,89309,anon3463153733,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
We have no way to search focused on _ideas_.

" 14,90303,2021-01-23T10:00:38.369Z,15142,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,89309,anon2725583816,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
Decentralize!

" 17,90324,2021-01-24T13:02:49.129Z,15142,1,12,11,2,0,0,17.4,89841,anon3554654177,anon2201458628,"You would like to join this I think and check out SEARX and Yacy: Salon: Future of Information access for search and discovery in @anon 15:00 16:00 CET Worksop SEARCH Search and Internet of Things Kickoff by Michael Christen @anon Go: https://bbb.tbm.tudelft.nl/b/rob-1zv-mco-ci9 Tell us https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/15143 Seminar Register now! https://www.ngi.eu/event/ngi-forward-data-search/?instance_id=434 Org @anon @anon" 18,90325,2021-01-24T13:04:19.429Z,15142,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,90295,anon3554654177,anon3463153733,"Great idea Nico! Talk soon. I think that was the early idea of Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn https://www.theinternetofthings.eu/robert-e-kahn-and-vinanon2863106368-g-cerf-digital-library-project-volume-1-world-knowbots-draft Vint Cerf my briefly mention it, we hope, n in this talk." 20,90420,2021-01-26T22:57:47.818Z,15142,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,89309,anon3440927181,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
We lack a strong foundation of independent open source software that can function as the base for a more diverse ecosystem than we have now. So many of the libraries and software we rely on are maintained either by a single person in their spare time or are firmly in the hand of a single company that may terminate it at any time, just as has happened recently with ElasticSearch.

" 21,90423,2021-01-27T00:16:44.850Z,15142,0,13,12,2,0,0,12.6,89309,anon2304680809,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**


" 22,90426,2021-01-27T03:25:30.650Z,15142,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,89309,anon4216540503,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
You're being tracked, ranked, and profiled, which can affect the objectivity of your research. I think a decentralized search with many nodes, in a p2p network can offer an alternative to big tech surveillance, and create opportunities for new tech entrepreneurship. Yacy.net comes to mind. With the right leadership we can empower individuals to create their own search nodes and make a better internet.

" 23,90440,2021-01-27T09:40:31.212Z,15142,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,89309,anon3903072398,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**


" 24,90442,2021-01-27T09:43:19.271Z,15142,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,90420,anon3379761435,anon3440927181,"Welcome, Sarah. What you point out is clearly true, to the point of becoming a joke. I am curious, what do you think should be done to remedy it? Are you thinking of government long term funding for strategic open source projects? Or some form of cooperativism? Or what else? https://xkcd.com/2347/" 25,90493,2021-01-27T14:19:28.115Z,15142,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,89309,anon3459039089,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
PROBLEM. Scaling Ethical digital service practices, adjusted to a unique person's need. SOLUTION. What if we could SEAMLESSLY acquire millions people to NGI by a personal BENEFIT (& to other Ethical AI best practices) - for all public library book users worldwide, - as to members of MyData cooperative, Public-Private-People partnership, - with SEAMLESS access to NGI.eu, - just by opening a (Global library) book's Jacket - in2taps of a jacket's image from any website (Amazon, a book store, a library) https://bit.ly/oeBookARbutanon2863106368 - also in2taps of a physical book's HYBRID Jacket. It is a HYBRID Jacket, like Data Jackets in Japan (Ohsawa 2013) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275541563_Data_Jackets_for_Externalizing_Use_Value_of_Hidden_Datasets http://bit.ly/oeBook4MozillaFest

" 26,90497,2021-01-27T14:28:35.497Z,15142,1,13,12,3,0,0,37.6,89309,anon623593341,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
The search engine ecosystem is dominated by Google and other big tech companies that have a business model to influence the results towards their stakeholders interest. The system is not transparent. The other challenge is that data needs to be curated at the moment of creation to make it FAIRi. I added the very important i, which stands for integrity/incorruptibility. This part and especially its governance is lacking and therefore search will always be limited and cannot be trusted.

" 27,90507,2021-01-27T14:48:56.592Z,15142,1,13,12,1,1,0,12.6,90493,anon1753543892,anon3459039089,"[quote=""anon3459039089, post:25, topic:15142""] SEAMLESSLY [/quote] @anon3459039089 could you expand on what you men with seamless in this context? Is it an adjective, and if yes, anon2696444391 is that archived or is that shorthand for a specific method?" 28,90513,2021-01-27T14:52:30.353Z,15142,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,90497,anon1753543892,anon623593341,"@anon623593341 and @anon4216540503 maybe check out this https://anon1577251828.eu/t/building-my-own-browser-to-explore-decentralized-discovery/9920 project by @anon3048848105 looking into setting up his own browser to regain some of this. @anon3048848105 this could be right down your line here :)" 29,90525,2021-01-27T15:38:58.084Z,15142,0,13,12,2,0,0,27.6,89309,anon1164199575,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
The major problem for search of commercial companies, products and services has been that there has been no decentralized registry for digital company endpoints. So while most legal business registration authorities have been recording and most often also publishing physical endpoints (street addresses), society has left digital endpoint registration to platforms like Google (implicit registration), Amazon (creating proprietary endpoints), and price comparison services (explicit registration). This has created a strong dependence on the middlemen (platforms) sustained by two-sided network effects. Fortunately, an increasing number of business registries now let businesses register their digital endpoints directly, and the EU effort to make registry information widely and freely available to anyone will enable a radically different platform-independent ecosystem. See: https://www.opendiscovery.biz/

" 30,90526,2021-01-27T15:39:59.988Z,15142,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,90442,anon3440927181,anon3379761435,"I don't think there is a single remedy. I like the recent revival of open source sponsoring platforms. The idea behind them goes into the right direction: businesses share the cost of the software they use. But the question remains if they can provide a sustainable income for anything but the most successful projects and they don't solve the one-person-project issue. Also, the relevant ones are all located in the US. Some parts of our software infrastructure are fundamental enough to value a long term strategic funding. For the rest it might be better to invest into meta funding, i.e. support organizations that successfully support open source, both financially and by helping projects grow up. This better allows to try out different approaches." 31,90529,2021-01-27T16:08:15.433Z,15142,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,89309,anon1085971534,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**


" 32,90535,2021-01-27T16:45:11.984Z,15142,0,13,12,2,0,0,27.6,90507,anon3459039089,anon1753543892,"Thanks for asking @anon1753543892. In my case SEAMLESS access means that we could provide access to service so naturally, that people don't notice - that a person accesses the needed service via NGI, - and the technicalities of this access (like search engine etc.) are AI-managed according to this unique person's MyData profile, via Self-Sovereign profile, Disposable Yet Official IDentity - by simple act of opening his/her book's HYBRID jacket. Because this jacket has machine-readable image, that entails the certain unique path to a certain service, - uniquely adjusted to the person's need, like to his/her certain reading disability (dyslexia type etc.) or to his/her mother language etc. - and this unique profile is kept in this person's own cloud (Personal Data Storage, like PODS of [Inrupt] https://inrupt.com/ ), at the Edge of the HYBRID book - that (s)he orders in2clicks from a (Global, in future) public library website - even from e.g. 'user-unfriendly' Amazon, leveraging adversarial interoperability approach, so that a person would access the book/service locally without paying to Amazon, but with paying royalties to book creators." 33,90541,2021-01-27T17:32:48.648Z,15142,0,12,11,2,0,0,12.4,89309,anon1975121076,anon1753543892,"**In your experience, what’s the most important issue with the current search engine ecosystem? Do you have a story/example to illustrate your point?**
Tracking, bias in search result popularity over accuracy), corrupting search entities, lack of confidence in the algorithms due to a loss of consensus, due to volume of weighted data across domains

sharing the cost of software, create more trade associative bodies who have similar goals in open-source infrastructure, empower individuals, local communities, and creating entrepreneurial partnerships to encourage innovation and adoption of alternatives away from networks like Google. We need more humans involved at every level of the process, even hobbyists who have webservers and offer p2p nodes. I just get a sense that pairing p2p, blockchain, and a plurality of volunteered computing power, could make many an enthusiast an active contributor for a more human internet, regardless of their proficiency, we should encourage everyone who uses the internet to help secure it, and make it more sovereign, private, and compliant to human needs. The work of economic and political theorist, Kevin A. Carson may be of some benefit here, as well as the domain of metaeconomics, which identifies the role ethics in individual choices." 35,90551,2021-01-27T19:56:14.091Z,15142,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,90324,anon1975121076,anon3554654177,"Dear sir @anon3554654177 , will the NGI presentations on the future of search be uploaded somewhere after the recordings? I personally missed Mr. Christens talked due to time zone differences. Best," 36,90718,2021-01-30T13:23:12.031Z,15142,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,90551,anon3554654177,anon1975121076,"Hello, no we did not record the BBB workshop sessions, Rob" 37,90829,2021-02-01T18:57:47.996Z,15142,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,90529,anon3048848105,anon1085971534,"Personally I think a lot of it comes down to expectations. We want to have a singular searchbox we can type into without thinking, but those singular searchboxes leads to a single organization judging what it should serve up in response. And leads others to try and game their system. I think web browsers *need* to make it easy to combine search results, etc clientside. Which there have long been specs for, but they go against the interests of major players (if I recall correctly even DuckDuckGo is contractually obligated to discourage this) so these useful tools get buried. It shouldn't be an addon few will install! I also think that once you've got more people cataloguing what's online (noone should be trying to index the whole web), they can design better UIs for finding stuff within the domains that interest them. I like [Hoogle](https://hoogle.haskell.org/) as an example in that it uses the expressiveness of Haskell's typesystem to provide unique way to find the exact APIs you're looking for. --- So yeah, effectively decentralizing search requires altering the UX away from what people expect in ways that aren't necessarily detrimental. It's a design and advocacy challenge. P.S. I think a uncurated approach like Yacy is only ever going to give you garbage. Yes I've used it. I prefer a federated approach even if much of the hosting is peer-to-peer." 1,735,2016-09-08T20:39:00.000Z,702,0,11,10,5,0,0,27.2,735,anon3485178460,anon3485178460,"Discover our initiative in ten visual slides! Breathing Games (www.anon3485178460.net) promotes respiratory health by encouraging each citizen to take care of their health. We create educational and therapeutic games, devices to measure the breathe, and distributed data systems to inform public health practices, and policies. We create a commons – collectively managed resources that are freely accessible and can be used and enriched by everyone – by spurring collaboration between people affected, caregivers, and passionate professionals to build on the collective intelligence. The games produced participatorily are meant to improve the quality and life expectancy of people with respiratory problems – by educating, transforming therapy into games, and promoting healthy habits. They can be reused and adapted by everyone to address local problems and needs, as long as the free/libre and open-source licences are maintained. We also develop open-source hardware such as flowmeter for domesic use. This material shall enable everyone, in all countries, to get indicators about his health (lung capacity tests), and shall also provide decentralized, anonimyzed data to advance public health research (blockchain/IPFS). On top of that we have been building a community of people to further develop and distribute the games. We successfully organized gamejams about cystic fibrosis and asthma in Switzerland and in Canada, and plan other events on breathing health and chronic respiratory diseases in the next months. The audience is huge: 1 out of 5 people in the world suffer from chronic respiratory diseases, and half of them do not follow the therapy as agreed with their caregiver. Key to the success of this initiative is the socio-economic, non-exclusive model we developed, as well as the platform we use to log contributions and make the collective effort visible. We use agile development methodologies and allow members to self-organise, so that we build on the collective intelligence and transform ideas into sustainable, scalable products and services. The participatory, inclusive approach enables us to build research-backed games that also are attractive and fun to play with. Interdisciplinarity helps us gain a multifaceted, holistic vision of healthcare and fosters collaboration between different parties, beyond institutions and countries. Breathing Games is a signatory of the United Nations Global Compact and of the Open Source Initiative. Discover more about us at www.anon3485178460.net " 2,6578,2016-09-09T18:51:03.000Z,702,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,735,anon294806887,anon3485178460,"What responses have you had? Hi @anon3485178460, whoa you rock. How did the prototype testing go, I imagine this is the kind of practical solution that literally everyone loves?  PS Congrats for the large numbers of partners you managed to bring on board (I counted 18 on your website!) " 3,14057,2016-09-10T11:27:02.000Z,702,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,735,anon3379761435,anon3485178460,"Second that Congrats @anon3485178460 ! I also would like to know about the testing. opencare is about honest sharing of knowledge, including things that don't anon2373157426 work as expected. In fact, failures (especially non-lethal) tend to be more interesting datapoints than successes, because we can learn more from them. :-) " 4,19731,2016-09-10T13:04:58.000Z,702,1,5,4,0,0,0,6.0,735,anon3485178460,anon3485178460,"Evolution and testing Hi @anon In 2014, we started with the positive expiratory pressure therapy for CF children. It was in fact not the best move as the exercice takes about 30 minutes daily, which would require a lot of resources to have interesting games, plus the fact that the exercice is anon2373157426 strict, so challenging to make it interesting. We then thought about other, more free gameplays, which we have to develop. We are now working on mini-games for asthma, that are about triggers and anon2696444391 to take the medicine. We want to reuse the work done for CF to build short games for aerosoltherapy. Regarding tests, we did a prestudy with ten children in a hospital, to see their interest, and that was positive. We are preparing two studies with focus groups to test the games that have been improved. Many learnings were also about setting the collaboratife framework, platform, etc. We are writing a few articles about that, that should be released in the next month. The initiative mostly advances during events as our community is always small, but we start to have funding and are going to redistribute them, with the aim to mobilize contributors on the long run. One big challenge is also that our non-exclusive model is not easily understood by authorities, so it takes a lot of time to explain it, and many fundings are not available as most competitions support profit-driven organizations. So we are thinking about creating a specific structure to be able to access these resources. Another thing is to move from proprietary to free softwares, for example from Google docs to a wiki, or from Unity game engine to another one. So they are lots of interesing challenges at different levels. :) We invite you to subscribe to our YouTube, where we are going to release 15 interviews of what participants learned during the last gamejam. In the next months, we intend to do gamejams in Montreal, Geneva, and possibly Paris and Lima if you d'like to join there or remotely! " 5,21922,2016-09-14T06:21:36.000Z,702,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,19731,anon294806887,anon3485178460,"Subscribed! And look forward to the videos. It seems to me that gamejams and all the events where you are present are most useful for getting support. With anything involving technology the easiest is just to sanon2696444391 anon2696444391 it works, so even inviting authorities/ potential funders to gamejams might do the trick.   " 6,24000,2016-09-15T10:32:12.000Z,702,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,735,anon75403560,anon3485178460,"Sanitation Nice work @anon Is there any level for  any step of lungs illness?  And is that need any assistance to check the evolution of the patient?  " 7,26038,2016-09-30T18:10:00.000Z,702,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,735,anon3485178460,anon3485178460,"First interview of participants released @anon @anon We are working on the outcomes to be sanon2696444391n, for example visualizing the evolution of lung capacity, effects of doing therapy or not, etc. " 8,27811,2016-09-29T15:21:52.000Z,702,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,735,anon3566051465,anon3485178460,"Breath is the Game @anon " 9,29074,2016-09-30T18:13:08.000Z,702,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,735,anon3485178460,anon3485178460,"We are part of a 85-minute documentary! What if working together for the good of all was the most common business model? Discover A new Economy, starring seven initiatives including Sensorica and ours. Thanks @anon " 10,90176,2021-01-21T12:24:40.406Z,702,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,735,anon1753543892,anon3485178460,"Hello @anon3485178460! Just came across this and am extremely curious anon2696444391 this developed since 2016, and especially in this pandemic of the respiratory COVID19 virus? Could you give us an update and share your experiences and ideas! Or needs so we can see if someone here can help out? Thank you so much!!!! (+ would love to move this conversation into the Internet of Humans Category to share with the opensource minded and game interested crowed there for a while if we get a anon2488317424 update :))" 11,90694,2021-01-29T18:17:19.737Z,702,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,735,anon659222949,anon3485178460,"On the same topic, I recently finished reading [Breath by James Nestor](https://www.mrjamesnestor.com/breath). It's incredibly fascinating, and the success of that book will surely bring more attention to all the facets of breathing. I highly recommend it. Did you read it @anon3485178460?" 12,90700,2021-01-29T22:15:51.595Z,702,0,6,5,1,0,0,51.2,735,anon3485178460,anon3485178460,"Hello @anon1753543892, @anon659222949, We hope you are well? How is Edge'? We have been [developing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYBIwGyLT6M) a multiplayer game to foster mutual support. Our aim is now to encourage people and communities to create their own game levels. :grinning: We also finish translating two [games](https://anon3485178460.net/games) for children who have asthma in various languages. And [research](https://doi.org/10.2196/25052) continues. :yum: Thanks for sharing this book! We don't know it. Maybe this could also interest you: '[Caesar's Last Breath: Decoding the Secrets of the Air Around Us](https://samkean.com/books/caesars-last-breath/)'? More broadly, we started to federate initiatives developing freely reproducible health tools. Here is a synthesis of our first event. * [Health technology as commons: trustable, affordable, adaptable](https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.4327587) * [Technologies de santé en communs : fiables, abordables, adaptables](https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.4428132) * [La tecnología de la salud como común: confiable, asequible, adaptable](https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.4437585) * [A tecnologia de saúde como comuns: confiável, acessível, adaptável](https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.4437601) * [Технологии здравоохранения для всех: надежные, доступные, адаптивные](https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.4437603) * [公有制下的健康科技: 可信赖, 可负担, 可适应](https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.4437541) * [आमजन-स्वामित्व के रूप में स्वास्थ्य प्रौद्योगिकी: विश्वसनीय, अनुकूल एवं किफ़ायती](https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.4437605) * [সর্ব সাধারনের জন্য সাস্থ্য প্রযুক্তিঃ বিশ্বাসযোগ্য,সাশ্রয়ী,অভিযোজনযোগ্য](https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.4437608) * [تكنولوجيا الصحة ذات الملكية المشتركة : موثوقة، متاحة وقابلة للتكّيُف](https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.4437609) Feel free to move the topic. :smiley: Best," 1,64179,2019-11-15T11:23:36.198Z,11545,0,11,10,28,0,0,157.2,64179,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"I’ve done several different things in my life. I did my MSc in statistics, but then I decided to work at the research center of the Bank of Italy, where I was for 18 years of my life. I conducted research on enterprises, on firms and short-term forecasts. When I turned 44, I wanted to make a change and moved to the Treasury. I actually ran in and out of it: I resigned a couple of times, and then I resumed my job. I ran the department for development and was engaged in the south of Italy. After that I worked at the European Union. And then at one point in my life, I became a minister during the governmental crisis 2012, but I resigned from public administration and moved to working with the civic organization called the Forum for Inequality and Diversity. I worked on the topic of inequalities and justice for anon2373157426 a long time. It was anon2373157426 clear to me that inequality is rising while working as an administrator. When I work with the committee to European Commissioner anon2071999133uta Maria Hübner, when Poland joined. She was an amazing person to work with. In 2008, inequality was not a major topic, everyone believed that we should leave everything to the market: inequality would fix itself. We even had a lot of opposition to the Cohesion Policy — the European Cohesion Policy which addresses the problem of abandoned areas — but we still pushed forward. The different in the approach was that we didn’t just give money to people, we tried to empower people. This is what I did as an administrator, but then I felt I wanted to go to the other side of the bench and try to do that with the civic organizations. So, my methodology hasn't changed, but I changed the side of where I'm working. Italy doesn’t have a very good public administration to be anon2373157426 frank, a very poor one. And for people like me, who wanted to change the world, it’s been anon2373157426 difficult. So, in 1968, me and my friends joined the research center of the Bank of Italy because we thought it was a place where we could drive change. It was the place through which you could become a technocrat, with the right soul, and had the possibility to help change the world. I didn't choose economics. In fact, I studied statistics, measuring demography, that's where I started. But then I moved to economics, because I thought that it would be the way to have power and to have more impact. In the late 70s, early 80s, we had anon2373157426 a lot of freedom in our research. I carried on having my own views on labor relations, my own views on small enterprises, my own views on inequality. I was able to conduct my research while having access to an enormous amount of data. But we didn't change the world. At one point in my life, when I was 44-years-old in 1998, I felt it was time for me to role up my sleeves, and I left for the reserves. **Crisis in the Western Hemisphere** All of the Western countries are going through an enormous crisis at the moment. People are angry, they resentment , there’s a so-called authoritarian dynamic. The reason for the authoritarian dynamic are inequalities, social injustice. It’s not only economic inequality, it is access to services, and it is resentment for not being recognized: people in rural areas, the working class, they don’t feel recognized. This is a paradox, because we have an information technology that in theory could be improved in equality, and in fact, is producing an enormous unprecedented concentration of knowledge and power in very few hands. I feel that it's about time that we do something about it before we end up with an authoritarian regime. And the way to do it, is by working together with the working class, with civic organizations. We need to put political pressure on the issues, and try to influence technology. The forum is an alliance of eight organization of civic society and about a hundred researchers, coming together to design proposals. We put together 15 proposal after a year and a half work on social justice. Ten of these focus on the impact of technology, three on labor, and one is bequeathed with the generation transfers. The problem is that about 15 years ago, through the time of neoliberalism, the idea was that the state should not interfere with markets. Unfortunately, capitalism can only produce good things, if there is conflict. If we put pressure on the entrepreneurs, then they will do someanon2696444391 what we asked them to do, but if we don't, they don't. Let’s take as an example whether or not a vague algorithm could potentially be put to good use, or to terrible use. At the moment, large companies transfer the predictability and volatility of the market onto the workers, for example, telling them when to work without any regard for their personal lives. But you could use the same algorithm to predict what benefits the worker. It's not the algorithm itself which is the problem, but the objective. We believe that by putting pressure on entrepreneurs, by having state owned enterprises with the right goals, or by creating collective platforms where people can actually put together the data on mobility, then use it, and then make sure that everybody has access. We can actually turn these technologies into something which could increase social justice rather than reduce it. **A Digital Age** Digitalization of Public Administration is one of the most stupid expressions invented. Digitalization doesn't mean anything in itself. For example, you are running a welfare system at the municipal level and decide to use AI to figure out who should benefit from housing intervention, or from care: then what you are doing is that you are depriving these people from the most important thing — which is even more important than housing — namely to interact with human beings, and to be understood by someone who they can express their feelings to. We could have a technology which could be used to actually understand the people in front of you better, but you are using the technology in a wrong matter. Public administration at the local level can say they can collect all the information on mobility to redesign the mobility of a particular town. Okay. All right. Fantastic. Only, they don’t share the data with everyone, or with those who are professional, innovative experts who could redesign the mobility. Instead, they allow a single monopoly corporation to become the owner of the data. Something like 60% of the Italian territory is hard to reach by car in terms of access to services. These are amazing places, which people like you and me enjoy enjoy for a couple of days. Living there could be beautiful. You could become a farmer. You could live off cultural heritage, and so on. But the people actually living there right now aren’t recognized and they aren’t provided services. Governments have been redesigning services in a one-size-fits-all approach, meaning you have the same reform of the health system or education system whether you live in Rome, or Bellino, or Paris. This means, anon2696444391ever, that some people may have to travel to school for 45 minutes. And as a result, they grow a sense of resentment. They feel that the only places where we could live (urban areas) are depriving them of their own sense of being somebody. Resentment doesn’t only grow out of having a lower income, but also out of not being recognized. This kind of abandonment produces anger towards the experts that are perceived as working for “the other guys,” the upper class, the authorities. And the only thing you can do is hate the migrants and call for an authoritarian government which, at least, decides quickly without discussion and participatory “boring things,” what to do. They have lost their trust in democracy. In a country like Italy, the concentration of wealth has been remarkable in the last 20 years. There are so many people that don't have much of a choice, they do what they need to do to work, get whatever opportunity that comes along. It’s not a lack of jobs, but it’s the poor quality of those jobs, which have been created through the technological transfer. There is no dignity in the gig economy: at the end of the game, the workers are not in control. Most people aim in live for substantial freedom. But many people feel deprived from that freedom, which results in resentment. **From Then Till Now** In my first year my life I studied anon2696444391 the Fiat company in Italy was exploiting their laborers. We analyzed a drop in the fertility rate of women which were being mistreated in the factory. I anon2373157426 honestly believe that capitalism as a mechanism to extract value from labor. And compared to now and then, this hasn’t changed, only the tools have. Personally, what has changed is anon2696444391 I understand change can be driven. I always relied a lot on political parties, I believed in parties, I was a member of them. I also believed a lot in unions. But, I never anon2373157426 realized anon2696444391 effective civic organizations could be in gathering around specific purposes. Not only doing advocacy work, but also taking things into their own hands, such as shaping services in local areas. **On the event** I’m looking forward to discuss these topics with a mix of people with different backgrounds. And I mean not just disciplinary backgrounds, but backgrounds in terms of points of view on the world. I am an institutional person that has spent a big part of his life on that side of the table, but working with a civic organization has shifted my perspective. I hope to come back from the event, understanding more on the injustices relating techm and perhaps anon2696444391 my own formed opinion wasn’t complete.." 1,66641,2019-12-02T13:20:08.762Z,12074,0,9,8,8,0,0,71.8,66641,anon3086952555,anon3086952555,"Hi ER, recently I stumbled over an excellent presentation by Rachel Coldicutt (linked below) that inspired me to riff on her theme of a model of restraint for public services. I'm cross-posting it here from my blog - curious to hear your feedback! P. /// snip /// # Just enough City A anon2488317424 while ago, the ever-brilliant and eloquent [Rachel Coldicutt](https://twitter.com/anon4058714779coldicutt) wrote a piece on the role of public service internet, and why it should be a model of restraint. It’s titled [Just enough Internet](https://www.doteveryone.org.uk/2019/10/just-enough-internet/), and it resonated deeply with me. It was her article that inspired not just this piece’s title but also its theme: *Thank you, Rachel!* Rachel argues that public service internet (broadcasters, government services) shouldn’t compete with commercial competitors by commercial metrics, but rather use approaches better suited to their mandate: Not engagement and more data, but providing the important basics while collecting as anon2488317424 as possible. (This summary doesn’t do Rachel’s text justice, she makes more, and more nuanced points there, so please read her piece, it’s time well spent.) This restraint and reframing is important because it prevents mission creep; it also alleviates the carbon footprint of all those services. ### Enter the Smart City Wherever we look on the globe, we see so-called Smart City projects popping up. Some are incremental, and add just some sensors. Others are blank slate, building whole connected cities or neighborhoods from scratch. What they have in commons is that they mostly are built around a logic of data-driven management and optimization. *You can’t manage what you can’t measure*, management consultant Peter Drucker famously said, and so Smart Cities tend to measure… everything. Or so they try. Of course, sensors only measure so many things, like physical movement (of people, or goods, or vehicles) through space, or the consumption and creation of energy. But thriving urban life is made up of many more things, and many of those cannot be measured as easily: Try measuring opportunity or intention or quality of life, and most Smart City management dashboards will throw an error: *File not found.* The narrative of the Smart City is based fundamentally that of optimizing a machine to run as efficiently as possible. It’s neoliberal market thinking in its purest form. ([Greenfield](https://www.goodreads.com/book/sanon2696444391/18626431-against-the-smart-city) and [Townsend](https://wwnoranon2863106368.com/books/Smart-Cities) and [Morozov](http://www.rosalux-nyc.org/rethinking-the-smart-city/) and many other Smart City critics have made those points much more eloquently before.) But that doesn’t reflect urban life. The human side of it is missing, a glaring whole right in the center of that particular vision. Instead of putting citizens in that spot in the center, the “traditional” Smart City model aims to build better (meaning: more efficient, lower cost) services to citizens by collecting, collating, analyzing data. It’s the logic of global supply chains and predictive maintenance and telecommunications networks and data analytics applied to the public space. (It’s no coincidence of the large tech vendors in that space come from either one of those backgrounds.) The city, anon2696444391ever, is no machine to be run at maximum efficiency. It’s a messy agora, with competing and often conflicting interests, and it needs slack in the system: Slack and friction all increase resilience in the face of larger challenges, as do empowered citizens and municipal administrations. The last thing any city needs is to be fully algorithmically managed at maximum efficiency just to come to a grinding halt when — *not if!* — the first technical glitch happens, or some company ceases their business. Most importantly, I’m convinced that collecting data in public space is a fundamental risk to a free society — and that it’s made even worse if the data collection regime is outside of the public’s control. The option of anonymity plays a crucial role for the freedom of assembly, of organizing, of expressing thoughts and political speech. If sensitive data is collected in public space (even if it’s not necessarily personably identifiable information!) then the trust in the collecting entity needs to be *absolute*. But as we know from political science, *the good king* is just another straw man, and that given the circumstance even the best government can turn bad quickly. History has taught us the crucial importance of checks & balances, and of data avoidance. ### We need a Smart City model of restraint Discussing publicly owned media, Rachel argues: > It’s time to renegotiate the tacit agreement between the people, the market and the state to take account of the ways that data and technology have nudged behaviours and norms and changed the underlying infrastructure of everyday life. This holds true for the (Smart) City, too: The tacit agreement between the people, the market and the state is that, roughly stated, the government provides essential services to its citizens, often with the help of the market, and with the citizens’ interest at the core. However, when we see technology companies lobby governments to green-light data-collecting pilot projects with anon2488317424 accountability in public space, that tacit agreement is violated. Not the citizens’ interests but those multinationals’ business models move into the center of these considerations. **There is no opt-out in public space.** So when collecting meaningful consent to the collection of data about citizens is hard or impossible, that data must not be collected, period. Surveillance in public space is more often detrimental to free societies than not. *You know this! We all know this!* Less data collected, and more options of anonymity in public space, make for a more resilient public sphere. And what data is collected should be made available to the public at anon2488317424 or no cost, and to commercial interests only within a framework of ethical use (and probably for a fee). ### What are better metrics for living in a (Smart) City? In order to get to better Smart Cities, we need to think about better, more complete metrics than efficiency & cost savings, and we need to determine those (and all other big decisions about public space) through a strong commitment to participation: From external experts to citizens panels to digital participation platforms, there are many tools at our disposal to make better, more democratically legitimized decisions. In that sense I cannot offer a final set of metrics to use. However, I can offer some potential starting points for a debate. I believe that every Smart City projects should be evaluated against the following aspects: - Would this substantially improve sustainability as laid out in the [UN’s Sustainable Development Goals (SGD)](https://www.undp.org/content/undp/en/home/sustainable-development-goals.html) framework? - Is meaningful participation built into the process at every step from framing to early feedback to planning to governance? Are the implications clear, and laid out in an accessibly, non-jargony way? - Are there safeguards in place to prevent things from getting worse than before if something doesn’t work as planed? - Will it solve a real issue and improve the life of citizens? *If in doubt, cut it out.* - Will Participation, accountability, trust, resilience and security (T.R.U.S.T.) all improve through this project? Obviously those can only be starting points. The point I’m making is this: **In the Smart City, less is more.** City administrations should optimize for thriving urban live and democracy; for citizens and digital rights — which also happen to be human rights; for resilience and opportunity rather than efficiency. That way we can create a canvas to be painted by citizens, administration and — yes! — the market, too. *We can only manage what we can measure?* Not necessarily. Neither the population or the urban organism need to be managed; just given a robust framework to thrive within. We don’t always need real time data for every decision — we can also make good decision based on values and trust in democratic processes, and by giving a voice to all impacted communities. We have a vast body of knowledge from decades of research around urban planning and sociology, and many other areas: Often enough we know the best decisions and it’s only politics that keeps us from enacting them. We can change that, and build the best public space we know to build. Our cities will be better off for it." 1,81132,2020-07-29T06:22:12.866Z,14183,1,25,24,59,0,0,380.0,81132,anon618418540,anon618418540,"Hello, everyone! My name is John O’Duinn and I want to start first by saying a big **THANK YOU** to @anon3828707713 , @anon1753543892 and @anon4218620973 for making this event happen. It was my honor to give the opening talk at **EdgeRyders Next Generation Internet Event.** This is part of **EU Next Generation Internet** - and the outcomes of what we discuss here will help inform what focus, investments and policies Europe will choose to build a next generation internet that supports the wellbeing of citizens, organisations and ecosystems. With that in mind, it struck me that over the years, we’ve evolved from **Internet connectivity**, to **Internet for businesses**, to **Internet of Things** and now to the **Next Generation Internet for Humans**. The obvious question is - why now? I'm glad you asked! 1) We are at an interesting inflection point in society, with several large tipping point changes happening at the **same** time: a) Technology changes - smartphones, free streaming video, high speed internet on smartphones. Internet usage is now mostly on mobile devices - not desktop. b) Changes in Social contract - no more job for life. Average job tenure keeps shrinking. Even “temp/contract work” is shrinking to per-task/gig work. c) Generational changes - Millennials became the largest segment of US workforce in 2016, GenZ will become the second largest segment of workforce this year (2020). Also people who would “normally” have retired by now are staying in the workforce because they lost their pensions/saving during the last big recession, so have no choice but to keep working. These factors together mean this is the first time we have five different generations all in the workforce at the time. d) COVID-19 has been an accelerator of this trend, but it’s important to keep in mind that these trends have been going on for years before covid-19. We dont know anon2696444391 long will COVID-19 be a concern into the future, but I believe it is not measured in days or weeks. e) Many companies in Silicon Valley already announced not moving back to offices this year; some already said not until mid-2021, and many announced moving to “remote first” workforce. While this might sound extreme, this is not “only” Silicon Valley. To sanon2696444391 anon2696444391 mainstream this is, in City of London, 30 largest employers already talking about only 20-40% occupancy *at most*. One example I found recently was: “*I think the notion of putting 7,000 people in a building may be a thing of the past, and we will find ways to operate with more distancing over a much longer period of time,*” Jes Staley, CEO Barcley 2) The “old normal” was not working for most people. a) Traffic and commuting is so bad that demand for housing near offices is causing a housing crisis as well as gentrification-and-displacement disruptions for others who don’t work for that employer yet still need to live there for their job. b) People were spending more time commuting to work. This caused the creation of “commuter towns” and “bedroom communities”, built for people who live and sleep there, but commute to work in a different town. c) The environmental impact of all this traffic is significant. According to the California Air Resource Board, people driving cars, mostly to and from work is 28% of total emissions. 28%. Everything else, truck, planes, agriculture, electricity stations are each under 10%. d) Those who lived outside of commuting distance of employer offices have higher rates of long-term unemployment. Over time, they accurately felt more sidelined from the “booming economy”, which in many cases led to resentment of the economic and political status quo. e) No surprise that two weeks ago, a Yougov survey in England found only 6% wanted life to be exactly the same as it was before COVID-19. 3) **Traditional Economic Development** is when a jurisdiction gives money to a large employer so they move to your town. The company will pay corporate taxes, so eventually the jurisdiction gets its money back. Additionally, the company anon192389820 local humans, trains them as they progress up the career ladder and work there for life. But the social changes mean that formula no longer works. a) Because of “no more job for life”, employers only want to move to a location where there are pre-trained unemployed candidates waiting to be hired. If not enough are there, a sudden influx of people can cause gentrification and displacement of existing humans. b) Because of “no more job for life”, humans don't want to relocate for a new job. Relocating is expensive and disruptive to family life. Trend to dual-income families means someone has to give up their job to become trailing-spouse. Especially when you know you’ll be switching jobs again in a 1-2-3 years. c) Encouraging companies to relocate is hard, expensive and takes a long time. As Amazon discovered in NewYork recently, these disruptions are not always welcomed - for the reasons already described above. 4) If Traditional Economic Development is no longer working, now what? How about trying something different - Distributed Economic Development. This is the heart of a law I helped write for The State of Vermont. This “Remote Worker” law has these essential parts: a) Encouraging knowledge workers / creative class workers to relocate is easier, cheaper and faster then encouraging corporations. b) Each employed knowledge worker creates 4.8-5.7 jobs in the local community. c) Remember that humans are a social species. Even if we have high speed internet at home and can work from home all the time, we need social interaction with other humans to work online over prolonged periods of time. d) Find an existing unused building in a formerly-walkable neighborhood and convert it into a mixed-use neighborhood coworking space. Think of this as a node on the Next Generation Internet of Humans. @anon1640400212 , @anon3295439096 and others here are also doing this. e) Remodel the building with a specific layout - different to the typical coworking spaces seen in larger metro cities and which helps increase foot traffic to nearby businesses to help them also survive! f) Provide incentives for some knowledge workers/creative class people to move to your community to help introduce these new concepts into daily life and start the movement in that location. g) Have existing residents help newly-arriving residents with practical logistics and local advice, fostering a sense of community. This helps new arrivals feel welcomed, which improves the ""retention rate"" for the community. This also helps new arrivals feel comfortable sanon2696444391ing anon2696444391 they work online to existing residents who have useful work skills, yet never considered they could stay in the community they live, and also have a real career online. 5) How does this work? a) People move to live in your neighborhood, bringing their **existing** jobs with them and start working from your small neighborhood coworking space. Even when they change employer jobs every few years, they still live in the same neighborhood and still walk to work online from the same neighborhood coworking space. b) These people diversify the tax revenue for your community, which is important to avoid the “all eggs in one basket” risk. c) The more people do this, the more their neighbors see they also can find real meaningful jobs online. This helps reduce “brain drain” caused by people graduating school/university and leaving town looking for jobs elsewhere. d) Because they are all walking to neighborhood coworking spaces, they are not commuting in cars or public transport, which helps the environment immediately and for low cost. **Does this really work? YES!** This was an important part of the State of Vermont’s “Remote Worker” law I helped write; it was wildly successful and I’m now working on similar laws and policies for other jurisdictions. It’s not just me. In the US, others have done similar initiatives for places like Tulsa OK, Savannah GA, Alabama and Utah. Here, today, @anon3295439096 , @anon1640400212 , @anon1444253885 and @anon4062356324 (and others!) are each doing this, in slightly different ways, with their neighborhood community coworking spaces. Each is successful in their own business. Each has been successful in supporting other businesses in their community. Each is helping their local economy. Please listen to what they have to say during today’s various sessions. See if this would help in your own local community. Please join us in this movement by spreading the word or sharing any ideas you have to help with others here on the resilience.anon1577251828.eu forums. After all, this Next Generation Internet of Humans might, just might, save the planet. Thank you. John." 2,81221,2020-07-31T14:26:35.326Z,14183,0,18,17,1,0,0,38.6,81132,anon294806887,anon618418540,"Hi @anon618418540 thanks for your talk at the event, I very much enjoyed it and it inspired me to do some of my own research into remote working and the [challenges for the future.](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/remote-work-for-everyone-what-we-stand-to-gain/14192/). I'm not sure I understand exactly why people need to relocate in the distributed development model - is it to support more small town / rural economies? or do you think in the current situation where people are where they are (perhaps rather still too far from their office) it is unlikely they will find a co-working space in proximity?" 3,81324,2020-08-04T05:36:10.053Z,14183,0,17,16,3,0,0,33.4,81132,anon4218620973,anon618418540,"Ping @anon @anon4221853825 @anon1234870208 @anon1160111731 @anon3323163504 @anon @anon378502459 @anon4280018075 @anon524075301 @anon @anon @anon1002231404 @anon2936923270 @anon @anon @anon @anon3016141986 @anon2071999133 @anon @anon56084824 @anon3010726492 @anon2637128699 (= @anon @anon @anon486911009 @anon @anon3295439096 @anon4218620973 @anon4062356324 @anon1444253885 @anon1768886684 @anon618418540 @anon3205029342 @anon1640400212 @anon1753543892 @anon192389820 @anon294806887 @anon3828707713 @anon3203746736 @anon2794261635" 4,81360,2020-08-04T19:30:47.092Z,14183,1,16,15,1,1,0,73.2,81132,anon3379761435,anon618418540,"Hello @anon618418540, nice to meet you! [quote=""anon618418540, post:1, topic:14183""] a) People move to live in your neighborhood, bringing their **existing** jobs with them and start working from your small neighborhood coworking space [/quote] This sort of works, we have seen it ourselves. But I can't shake off the feeling that it's a one-off. Only a small part of the workforce has the will and the power to detach themselves from a traditional workplace. The power has to do with large swaths of the economy being dominated by a culture of control, where bosses want to see people at their desks. The will has to do with being prepared to give up the informal ""watercooler networks"" where deals and alliances are made. Nevertheless, people with both the will and the power exist, and they will make a scheme like Vermont's successful. Those people will move to Vermont. But what if Costa Rica tries the same thing? Will there be another cohort of people in that position? Or will people in Vermont decide that Costa Rica is sunnier and cheaper, and what the hell? Or will the Costa Rican scheme simply fail? As part of my interest for co-housing spaces, [I spent some time in Bali, in a space called ROAM](/t/6072). Like many such, it caters to digital nomads: people who write code for, say, BNP Paribas's IT department, and commit to the company's codes repos. Why would they not work from remote? And as long as it is remote, why not move to Bali, rather than coding from an expensive Paris apartment? The people in ROAM understood that everybody wanted them. With a Paris or New York City's salary, and being so mobile, they were *very* welcome in most middle- and low-income countries, and even in less central parts of highly developed countries. So, they made it count. They would trade expat tips: ""with my salary, I can afford a villa in Bali, but I could have a mansion in Vietnam"", this sort of stuff. They were building lives predicated on local cheap labor to make their Margaritas and give them massages, and made no mystery of their preference for such labor to stay cheap. I do hope that I am wrong, and that you are right to be optimistic. We will soon know." 5,81455,2020-08-06T15:51:21.785Z,14183,1,15,14,1,0,0,43.0,81360,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"I am someone who always performed better in a job when it was based on going to a workplace. Working from home, which I have been doing the past few years, is actually pretty new for me. Ultimately for me the difference was social. But not just water cooler social. It had more to do with being part of, and in some cases leading, a crew. Going to a coworking space would get me part of the way there.." 6,89999,2021-01-19T09:25:51.664Z,14183,1,8,7,2,0,0,16.6,81132,anon1753543892,anon618418540,"Dear @anon618418540, we would like to include your post here in a publication the ""NGI Community Journalism Digest"". If you would like to make any edits to the text before it being included you can do so with no problem by editing your first posts here until the 26th of January :)." 7,90381,2021-01-26T07:19:00.292Z,14183,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,89999,anon618418540,anon1753543892,"hi @anon1753543892: Thanks for checking. I've just finished reviewing and updating the post. (Glad I checked, there was a chunk of text missing in middle. Now fixed.) Yes, please proceed with the ""NGI Community Journalism Digest” work. And thanks again for checking first. Good night from SF! John." 8,90402,2021-01-26T17:30:56.097Z,14183,0,6,5,1,0,0,36.2,81455,anon618418540,anon3203746736,"hi @anon3203746736: Thanks for posting, and yes, your point is totally valid. Humans are a social species. We (typically) dont handle prolonged isolation well. Social bonds, team culture, trust and other words describing anon2696444391 people connect with others around them are essential - when talking about an all-in-one-place organization or talking about a physically distributed team. Recreating that social connection is essential; groups that ignore that will run into erosion of team culture (if they had one in the first place), isolation, burnout and retention issues. I've led groups with strong social connection, and we had strong culture, trust and outstanding retention. For years. (Saying that to note first-hand experience that it can work very well, if done right.) Thinking back to the various scenarios you had in mind about what worked well for you, and what didnt, looking for a pattern of what you liked (and didnt like)... can help you spot patterns/trends that work specifically for you. Knowing that can help you going forward. Happy to chat more about this offline, if you want. John." 1,55953,2019-07-01T12:24:12.006Z,10273,6,41,40,28,0,0,193.2,55953,anon2794261635,anon2794261635,"This is the list to keep track of all NGI related events: those Edgeryders is organising or third party events in which Edgeryders have an active role in. The post is made wiki with the idea to update it until the end of the project. It is useful to have an overview but also for reporting purposes. # 2019 ## Events organized by Edgeryders (onboarding events): - **11/5** - [NGI Forward Matchmaking event](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internet-of-humans-matchmaking-event-in-stockholm/9705) Type: matchmaking Category: public Location: Stockholm Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: tech community Edgeryders role: telling our stories and getting acquainted with the roadmap of the Internet of Humans project. Number of participants: 35 - **19/11** - [AI and Internet infrastructure vs. equality and justice](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-i-learned-on-regulating-ai-and-a-human-centric-internet/11699) Type: meetup Category: public Location: DigitYser, Brussels Organisers: Edgeryders in partnership with DigitYser Stakeholders: policy makers; tech & hacker scene Edgeryders role: @anon3828707713 @anon3379761435 Event organized in the framework of the [Edgeryders Festival](https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/). [Monitoring form](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jNHT0sMe5OCrqfmAbG7QpDdZrFqqnUdruTWMX4qem30/edit). Number of participants: 100 Stakeholders reached: Policymakers, organised civil society. Reach: 750 policymakers. As a direct result of the summary we wrote of findings from the event, we were requested to provide suggestions for amendments Greens MEP Alexandra Geese included our proposals as amendments in her report for the Committee on Internal Market and Consumer Protection (IMCO) in the European Parliament has confirmed all the compromise amendments in my report with far-reaching demands for future standards in the ethics of artificial intelligence, robotics and related technologies. The report highlights the outlines for future legislation set by the European Parliament. They will feed into the report of the JURI Committee, which will be put to the vote in September and is expected to go to plenary in October. https://alexandrageese.eu/the-results-of-my-report-on-ethical-aspects-of-ai/ - **19/11; 28/11 & 29/11** - [Anticipate! Exploring Collective Intelligence Design](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anticipate-exploring-collective-intelligence-design/11021) Type: a series of three workshops Category: public Location: Saarbruecken Organisers: Edgeryders, Co-hosted by [xm:lab](https://www.xmlab.org/research) - Experimental Media Lab and [K8 ](http://www.k8.design/) of the Academy of Fine Arts Saar. Stakeholders: people concerned about tech Edgeryders role: event organized in the framework of the Edgeryders Festival. Three workshops dealt with: Data Sovereignty, Data Governance and Decentralized Technologies and Community Architectures. Number of participants: 50 - **22-24/11** - [Hackathon for Ethical Solutions to Unethical problems](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-berlin/10769) Type: hackathon Category: public Location: Berlin, Germany Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: Technologists and entrepreneurs Edgeryders role: event organized in the framework of the Edgeryders Festival. It convened experts for an interdisciplinary exhange around AI, one the key topics NGI Forward. [Monitoring form](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pNHv9L-fwsbtPzvfQtxq4_A03SFTlN6Z/edit). Number of participants: 50 - **24/11** - [What does tech look like on a finite, post-climate change Earth?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/event-what-does-tech-look-like-on-a-finite-post-climate-change-earth/11073) Type: facilitated conversations Category: public Location: Malmo Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: people who are currently directly involved in building, researching, regulating, monetising and or providing meaningful input into the wider debate around the technologies in question. Edgeryders role: @anon2682865457 hosted this event in the framework of the Edgeryders Festival, focused on resilient tech, networks and communities, sustainable futurism and solarpunk. Number of participants: 25-30 - **28/11** - [Teaching teachers open source](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881) Type: workshop Category: public Location: Stockholm Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: actors in the educational systems and those from the core free and open source landscape Edgeryders role: event organized in the framework of the Edgeryders Festival. Learn about the cornersanon2863106368es of Free & Open Source and anon2696444391 those are fundamental to learning anything in a digital world. Number of participants: 20 - **29/11** - [Service Design in a Climate Emergency](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-what-do-digital-services-in-a-world-of-net-zero-look-like/11070) Type: workshop Category: public Location: Berlin Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: service designers from public and private sectors, policy designers, other tech interested public Edgeryders role: event organized in the framework of the Edgeryders Festival. The event also included Peter Bihr's intervention on [Carbon Neutral Smart Cities](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/towards-carbon-neutral-smart-cities-call-for-feedback-on-proposed-festival-session/11041). Number of participants: 20 - **1/12** - [Cooperation at Scale, Next Generation Collective Intelligence and Internet](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/cooperation-at-scale-next-generation-collective-intelligence-and-internet/11989) Type: workshop Category: public Location: Brussels, DigitYser Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: tech community Edgeryders role: event organized in the framework of the Edgeryders Festival by @anon2860100070 Number of participants: 15 ## Third party events: - **17-18/5** - [Data Terra Nemo](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/data-terra-nemo-first-report-scuttlebutt/9928) Type: conference Category: public Location: Berlin Organisers: Stakeholders: Edgeryders role: networking and promoting the project. @anon659222949 attended. - **1/7** - [Sex Tech Conference](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/sex-tech-conference-in-berlin/10118) Type: conference Category: public Location: Berlin Organisers: SxTech Stakeholders: technologists, health professionals, entrepreneurs, educators, scientists Edgeryders role: @anon3828707713 participated to build new relationships and promote the Internet of Humans initiative. - **10/7** - [Platforms, precarious work and the public good. Can platforms empower workers?](https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/d/d9a9c0490bdcb6d045860cd5e1509b46d90ed8b0.pdf) Type: discussion Category: public Location: Brussels Organisers: The Foundation for European Progressive Studies (FEPS) Stakeholders: policy makers; academics Edgeryders role: @anon3828707713 participating in the session ""platforms for the public good"" - **18-21/7** - [DWeb Camp](https://dwebcamp.org/) Type: camp Category: public Location: San Francisco, California Organisers: DWeb, Internet Archive Stakeholders: developers, hackers, makers, activists Edgeryders role: @anon2682865457 attended (not an active role) - **21-25/8** - [Chaos Communication Camp](https://events.ccc.de/category/camp/) Type: camp Category: public Location: Mildenberg, Germany Organisers: Chaos Computer Club e. V. Stakeholders: hackers Edgeryders role: @anon659222949 @anon2682865457 held outreach events (do we have more details?) - **5/9 - 7/9** - [Techfestival](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/event-notes-unstructured-tech-moonshot-for-climate-change/10696) Type: conference Category: public Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Organisers: Thomas Mygdahl Stakeholders: technologists, entrepreneurs, investors and funders, activists, policymakers, media Edgeryders role: @anon3828707713 participating in debates and holding meeting with potential partner organisations for future events, dissemination and impact/adoption of our findings from the conversations in the community. - **25-27/09** - [My Data](https://mydata2019.org/) Type: Conference Category: public Location: Wanha Satama, Helsinki, Finland Organisers: My Data Global Stakeholders: experts from business, legal, tech and society sectors Edgeryders role: @anon3379761435 & @anon2682865457 participated in a [panel on collective intelligence](https://www.mydata2019.org/programme-page/collective-intelligence/). Panel chair is Loretta Anania (EU Commission). @anon659222949 attended the [NGI Forum](https://www.mydata2019.org/programme-page/ngi-forum-1/) happening at the same time and promoted the platform. Notes from the workshop on [online identities](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/where-next-for-online-identities-notes-from-ngi-forum-from-workshop-1/10868). [Reflections](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-models-for-a-data-economy-reflections-from-mydata2019/10893) from My Data. - **18-20/10** - [Radical Networks](https://radicalnetworks.org/) Type: conference Category: public Location: New York Organisers: Radical Networks Stakeholders: artists, activists, lawyers, engineers, writers, policy makers, educators, scientists, journalists, community organizers, cyberfeminists, self-taught technologists, and others. Edgeryders role: @anon659222949 proposed a talk (did this happen?) - **24-25/11** - [Internet Days](https://internetdagarna.se/english/) Type: conference / exhibition Category: public Location: Stockholm Waterfront Congress Centre Organisers: The Swedish Internet Foundation Stakeholders: Industry, policymakers, media, interested public Edgeryders role: [Exhibition booth](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iwlnWJebAi5xiRKCUNr4HW_ZHf1Jv17U/edit) to drive engagement to the platform and NGI conversation @anon659222949 # 2020 ## Events organized by Edgeryders (onboarding events): - **Jan.-Apr.** - [A series of community calls](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/lets-open-up-an-open-source-webinar-community-call/12409) Type: online discussions Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: wider community Edgeryders role: as a follow-up after the Festival, featuring projects, topics and community members in a series of biweekly community calls; fostering new collaborations. - **9/4** - [Surveillance Pandemic - A community listening session on emergent post-COVID trends from contact tracking to special powers](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-a-community-listening-session-on-emergent-post-covid-trends-from-contact-tracking-to-special-powers/13089) Type: moderated discussion Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: anyone interested in the topic, journalists, activists Edgeryders role: organized in the framework of the [IOT day](https://www.iotday.org/). [Writeup](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-results-of-the-community-listening-post-on-risks-for-freedom-in-the-wake-of-covid-19/13183). Number of participants: 36 - **21/4** - https://anon1577251828.eu/t/viconnect-play-culture-prototype-webinar-event/13306/27 Type: webinar Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: Parents, technologists, designers Edgeryders role: Coordinating the event to drive engagement to the platform and NGI conversation @anon Number of participants: 10 - **21/4** - [An event on anon2696444391 the NGI Exchange community can support Economic and Social Recovery and Resilience to help people cope with job and income loss during covid19](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-to-do-when-losing-work-during-covid19-call-to-exchange-experience-advice-each-tuesday-noon/13256) Type: online meeting Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: Tech sector workers, entrepreneurs Edgeryders role: Coordinating the event to drive engagement to the platform and NGI conversation @anon3828707713 Number of participants: 41 - **8/5** - [Own Your Cloud](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/own-your-cloud-webinar-nextcould-setup-workshop-8th-of-may/13309) Type: webinar & workshop Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: general public, people with interest in developing their business/institutions indepenendesn from subscription clouds Edgeryders role: hosting the event led by a community member. Discussion of the ethical and legal implications of subscription services for clouds combined with a hands-on workshop helping everyone to set up their own nextcloud. Number of participants: 18 - **3/6** - [An event on Economic Recovery of the food sector from covid19 and anon2696444391 digital/ internet tech play in](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/learning-from-the-brussels-food-ecosystem-anon2696444391-can-communities-keep-working-together/13796/10) Type: online meeting Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: entrepreneurs and technology builders Edgeryders role: Coordinating the event to drive engagement to the platform and NGI conversation @anon294806887 @anon3828707713 Number of participants: 16 - **3/6** - [Making Sense of a COVID-19 World: applying collective intelligence to big data](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/webinar-making-sense-of-a-covid-19-world-applying-collective-intelligence-to-big-data-3rd-of-june/13537) Type: webinar Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders in collaboration with DElab Stakeholders: tech community Edgeryders role: hosting and moderating the discussion, promoting the work (and deliverables) of one of the consortium partners, opening the public debate on the meaning of the data on COVID-19. Number of participants: 20-30 - **21/7** - [An event on Economic Recovery of the Coworking sector from Covid19 and anon2696444391 digital/ internet tech play in](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-to-support-recovery-of-the-coworking-sector-an-online-summit-bringing-together-key-industry-figures-and-wider-sector-participants/13987/4) Type: conference Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: entrepreneurs and policy makers Edgeryders role: Coordinating the event to drive engagement to the platform and NGI conversation @anon3828707713 @anon Number of participants: 50 in call 80 signups - **14/10 - 30/10** - Covid19 + Resilient livelihoods an online summit https://anon1577251828.eu/t/sneak-peek-covid19-resilient-livelihoods-an-online-summit/13296 Type: summit Category: public Location: online and in different locations in Europe Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: policymakers, entrepreneurs, technology sector workers, hackers, organised civil society, activists, politicians, media, academics, funders, investors Edgeryders role: Coordinating the event @anon3828707713 @anon Number of participants: *to be filled after the event* * **21/10** - https://anon1577251828.eu/t/freelancing-remote-work-technology-and-childcare/14530/16 Type: Panel discussion with audience Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders, spread through Freelancer Week Stakeholders: Remote working parents Edgeryders role: @anon1753543892 organises, moderates and represented Edgeryders, questions asked as developed on the platform with input from ethno team. * **22/10** - https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-freelancers-really-need-anon2696444391-can-technology-help-freelancers-to-thrive-and-where-do-we-desperately-need-to-improve/14488/22 Type: Panel discussion with audience Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders, spread through Freelancer Week Stakeholders: tech community, freelancers, remote workers, employers Edgeryders role: @anon1753543892 organises, moderates and represented Edgeryders, questions asked as developed on the platform with input from ethno team. * **08/11 & 09/12** - Series of ""Ask me Anything"" on the platform: with [Ananon2863106368 Ekker](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hi-i-m-ananon2863106368-ekker-and-i-won-the-first-case-in-the-eu-against-government-use-of-an-algorithmic-decision-making-system-ama/14766) & [Erik Bohjort](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/event-ama-the-psychology-of-changing-behaviour-digital-edtech/14913) Type: AMA Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders Stakeholders: general public and tech community Edgeryders role: initiated and led by the team of ethnographers + @anon1753543892 ## Third party events: - **24-26/4** - [EU vs. Virus](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/our-experience-from-the-paneuropeanhackaanon2863106368-euvsvirus-24-26-april-corona-covid-19/13320) Type: pan-European hackathon Category: public Location: online Organisers: EU Commission Stakeholders: tech community Edgeryders role: @anon3828707713 participated and represented Edgeryders, proposed a solution for distributed crisis collaboration. - **16/6** - [An event on the role of the green deal on Economic Recovery and Resilience in the aftermath of covid19 and anon2696444391 digital/ internet tech play in](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/june-16-resilient-livelihoods-and-behavioural-adaptation-to-covid/13867) Type: online meeting Category: public Location: online Organisers: Progressives Zentrum, FEPS Stakeholders: academics, policymakers and media Edgeryders role: Coordinating the event to drive engagement to the platform and NGI conversation @anon3828707713 @anon3379761435. Participating was representative for Eit Climate kic. Number of participants: 15 in the chat. Who did we engage with: Policy makers', political representatives , organised civilsociety, academics. Reach: estimate 3% of 2700 ... Our session was live-streamed to signed up participants of the event within which our session took place ( 2,700 fellow policy makers and experts from 70+ countries worldwide, 114 speakers and 25 partner organisations of the event). The organisers didn’t collect exact statistics so I’m guesstimating. - **29/9** - [Ethnography and the Internet: collective intelligence insights for digital policy](https://summit.ngi.eu/#programme) Type: workshop Category: public Location: online Organisers: NESTA, the City of Amsterdam Stakeholders: internet changemakers Edgeryders role: @anon2559300400 holding a workshop in the framework of the NGI Policy Summit # 2021 ## Organised by Edgeryders ## Collaborations * **20/1** - Data And Policy Type: Seminar + Workshops Category: public Location: online Partners: Rob van Kraneburg, Edgeryders, https://www.theinternetofthings.eu Stakeholders: Entrepreneurs, Investors, Funders, Internet Changemakers. Policymakers, Nesta Edgeyders role: Set up onboarding form for participants to connect, offer and moderate platform before during and after the workshops. Producing and sharing outreach material. Running one of the workshops actively. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/data-and-policy-seminar-20th-january/15163 * **21/1** - The Overweb Challenge Type: Category: public Location: online Partners: The Overweb foundation, Bridgit.ie, The Forbes Funds, Fundingbox, weTech Belgiu, Skööl, Umi Stakeholders: Entrepreneurs, Investors, Funders, Internet Changemakers Edgeyders role: @anon3828707713 participated in a Panel, on request of the organiser ( member of the community) we set up and hosted a community platform for event participants to meet, build project teams and engage in debate around NGI topics. (https://anon1577251828.eu/t/connect-introduce-yourself-and-your-project/15169) * **27/1** - The Future of Search Type: Seminar + Workshops Category: public Location: online Partners: Rob van Kraneburg, Edgeryders, https://www.theinternetofthings.eu Stakeholders: Entrepreneurs, Investors, Funders, Internet Changemakers. Policymakers, Nesta Edgeyders role: Set up onboarding form for participants to connect, offer and moderate platform before during and after the workshops. Producing and sharing outreach material. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-future-of-search-workshop-27th-january/15142" 2,55962,2019-07-01T13:36:35.652Z,10273,2,29,28,1,0,0,20.8,55953,anon3828707713,anon2794261635,"Also - Zenna is going to be at 18th of July - DWeb in California around the 8th to 15th of August - Bornhack 21th to 25th, August - CCCamp" 3,55968,2019-07-01T14:16:41.378Z,10273,2,28,27,1,0,0,20.6,55962,anon2794261635,anon3828707713,tagged Zenna in those events and added the DWeb. What I need from all of you is to fill-in the missing info for each event so that I can add it to the official NGI calendar for the consortium. 4,55973,2019-07-01T15:02:30.623Z,10273,1,28,27,1,0,0,15.6,55968,anon3203746736,anon2794261635,I filled in some about Dweb - turns out I know some of the organizers. 5,55974,2019-07-01T15:23:12.867Z,10273,1,27,26,1,0,0,15.4,55973,anon2794261635,anon3203746736,great thanks! do you have the information on what role Zenna will have at the event? 6,55975,2019-07-01T15:29:55.415Z,10273,1,28,27,1,0,0,15.6,55974,anon3203746736,anon2794261635,I think she is just attending but I can ask her. 7,55976,2019-07-01T15:35:12.435Z,10273,1,24,23,1,0,0,14.8,55975,anon2794261635,anon3203746736,"In this case it won't go to the consortium spreadsheet since we put there only the things we are organising or participating in as speakers, workshop leaders etc." 8,55977,2019-07-01T15:44:23.035Z,10273,0,21,20,1,0,0,9.2,55976,anon3203746736,anon2794261635,Right. 9,56023,2019-07-02T02:41:40.402Z,10273,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,55953,anon3197437925,anon2794261635,"@anon2794261635: This list-style event format unfortunately does not work for our setup to publish events from this category to anon1577251828.eu/events ([details](/t/9687)). Can you please split it into individual topics, one per event, and with a picture each. As an example, I contributed [a topic for the first event](/t/10279)." 10,56025,2019-07-02T03:47:16.867Z,10273,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,55953,anon3828707713,anon2794261635,"Deep green tech workshopestakeolders: technologists, hackers, researchers Edgeryders role: workshop co-design, community management Location: Berlin" 11,56027,2019-07-02T06:14:38.139Z,10273,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,56023,anon2794261635,anon3197437925,"Hmm so there is no way to have everything in one place? I think it is much easier to have an overview rather than opening ten different threads. I can in addition do separate posts but keep somewhere the timeline, or a summary like this." 12,56029,2019-07-02T07:00:50.049Z,10273,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,55968,anon2794261635,anon2794261635,@anon659222949 can you describe what will you be doing (Edgeryders role) at the BornHack and the Radical Networks events? 13,56030,2019-07-02T07:04:40.475Z,10273,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,56029,anon659222949,anon2794261635,"Is it enough to say outreach, or does it need to be more specific? I’m exactly sure yet." 14,56031,2019-07-02T07:06:00.989Z,10273,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,56030,anon2794261635,anon659222949,what it really means? you are just attending and looking for interesting people or you are intervening in a way - as a speaker for example 15,56035,2019-07-02T07:16:10.711Z,10273,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,56031,anon659222949,anon2794261635,"I have applied to do a talk at Radical Networks and and will also submit a proposal for a workshop at Bornhack, but neither are confirmed yet." 16,56036,2019-07-02T07:21:15.873Z,10273,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,56035,anon2794261635,anon659222949,"ok great, so I won't put that it's confirmed" 17,56058,2019-07-02T10:33:36.281Z,10273,0,16,15,1,1,0,23.2,56027,anon3197437925,anon2794261635,"[quote=""anon2794261635, post:11, topic:10273""] I can in addition do separate posts but keep somewhere the timeline, or a summary like this. [/quote] Sure, that's not a problem. You can for example keep this topic as the summary, keep it in this Events category, and link from it to the individual topics with more details. The only important thing is that for every event there is a topic with the event's date and time." 18,57364,2019-07-31T09:21:29.818Z,10273,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,55953,anon2794261635,anon2794261635,If there are any new events you want to include in the calendar (or updates on these above) please let me know so that I can update in the official calendar before the end of the week when it will be shared with the PO. @anon3828707713 @anon659222949 @anon2682865457 19,57365,2019-07-31T09:29:57.359Z,10273,1,16,15,1,1,0,28.2,55953,anon2794261635,anon2794261635,"[quote=""anon2794261635, post:1, topic:10273""] **18-21/7** - [DWeb Camp ](https://dwebcamp.org/) Type: camp Category: public Location: San Francisco, California Organisers: DWeb, Internet Archive Stakeholders: developers, hackers, makers, activists Edgeryders role: @anon2682865457 tbc [/quote] Also, @anon2682865457 did you attend this event?" 20,57393,2019-07-31T15:23:33.905Z,10273,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,57365,anon3203746736,anon2794261635,She did. I met her for coffee soon after. Lots of Scuttlebutt community members were there. 21,58124,2019-08-19T13:21:16.740Z,10273,1,17,16,1,1,0,28.4,55953,anon2794261635,anon2794261635,"[quote=""anon2794261635, post:1, topic:10273""] * **8-15/8** - [BornHack ](https://bornhack.dk/bornhack-2019/) Type: camp Category: public Location: Funen island, Denmark Organisers: BornHack Stakeholders: hackers, makers, politicians, activists, developers, artists, sysadmins, engineers Edgeryders role: @anon659222949 @anon2682865457 proposed a workshop, tbc * **21-25/8** - [Chaos Communication Camp ](https://events.ccc.de/category/camp/) Type: camp Category: public Location: Mildenberg, Germany Organisers: Chaos Computer Club e. V. Stakeholders: hackers Edgeryders role: @anon3828707713 @anon659222949 @anon2682865457 holding outreach events [/quote] @anon659222949 any updates on these two events? From now on there is a template to be filled-in for the coordinator containing more information." 22,58140,2019-08-19T17:20:54.943Z,10273,2,16,15,1,0,0,18.2,58124,anon659222949,anon2794261635,"I ended upp skipping Bornhack. I'm leaving for CCC on Wednesday morning. What's in the template?" 23,58142,2019-08-19T17:26:59.918Z,10273,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,58140,anon2682865457,anon659222949,"I also skipped Bornhack, also heading to CCC on Wednesday! Hugi, I'll add you to the ssb group chat if you're not already in too :sparkles:" 24,58154,2019-08-20T09:07:36.945Z,10273,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,58140,anon2794261635,anon659222949,"I uploaded the form on our Drive, you can find it [here](https://drive.google.com/drive/u/anon" 25,58156,2019-08-20T09:36:21.936Z,10273,1,16,15,1,1,0,13.2,58154,anon659222949,anon2794261635,"[quote=""anon2794261635, post:24, topic:10273""] If this is the case for CCC please fill it in. [/quote] Ok, will do. Where do I put it once I've filled it in?" 26,58158,2019-08-20T09:48:52.289Z,10273,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,58156,anon2794261635,anon659222949,"We can use the same folder where the template is (""outreach events""), NGI team drive" 27,80502,2020-07-15T09:54:41.158Z,10273,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,55953,anon3828707713,anon2794261635,@anon1753543892 and @anon2794261635 I am updating everything here - what I am missing is the list of festival events - could you add them @anon2794261635 ? @anon1753543892 is busy with the event next week 28,80504,2020-07-15T09:57:58.548Z,10273,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,55953,anon1753543892,anon2794261635,"the one by @anon2860100070 that was added in the very end of the festival misses: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/cooperation-at-scale-next-generation-collective-intelligence-and-internet/11989 1st of dec 2019. will fill in above but the link is dead." 29,80505,2020-07-15T10:01:40.855Z,10273,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,80504,anon2794261635,anon1753543892,"We would need them classified in two categories: organized by Edgeryders and third party events. Also, were there any events before July 2019?" 30,80506,2020-07-15T10:17:05.348Z,10273,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,55953,anon3828707713,anon2794261635,"Missing from this list: ### 2020 [Listening session on surveillance pandemic organised](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-results-of-the-community-listening-post-on-risks-for-freedom-in-the-wake-of-covid-19/13183) by @anon3379761435 [Webinar on OpenSource](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/own-your-cloud-webinar-nextcould-setup-workshop-8th-of-may/13309) by Erik Lönroth Edgeryders [participation in EU vs Virus Hackathon](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/our-experience-from-the-paneuropeanhackaanon2863106368-euvsvirus-24-26-april-corona-covid-19/13320) ### 2019 Chris adams workshop on [Service design in a climate emergency](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-what-do-digital-services-in-a-world-of-net-zero-look-like/11070) [Collective intelligence workshop](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/cooperation-at-scale-next-generation-collective-intelligence-and-internet/11989) by Liliana [Collective intelligence event by Soenke](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anticipate-exploring-collective-intelligence-design/11021)" 31,80507,2020-07-15T10:17:45.157Z,10273,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,80506,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,@anon2794261635 i dont have capacity to add this stuff into the template so I have to leave it to you 32,80508,2020-07-15T10:20:24.571Z,10273,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,80507,anon2794261635,anon3828707713,"no need to add in the template, we just need to update the list above in two categories of events (also identifying those that were the ""onboarding"" ones, as per the GA we need to have 12 in total, you told me there were 8 organized so far - which exactly are those?). I'll add it then in the report myself." 33,80509,2020-07-15T10:21:39.347Z,10273,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,80508,anon3828707713,anon2794261635,oh - it seems we have organised many many more - pick what you want from the above 34,80510,2020-07-15T10:22:18.674Z,10273,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,80509,anon2794261635,anon3828707713,ok. did anything happen before July 2019? 35,80511,2020-07-15T10:25:44.578Z,10273,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,80510,anon3828707713,anon2794261635,you can see all events if you search for tag event or look in the events subcategory in the IOH category. But the platform is buggy at the moment so I cannot access them... :( 36,80548,2020-07-15T13:20:15.574Z,10273,1,11,10,1,0,0,42.2,80511,anon2794261635,anon3828707713,"ok, this looks complete now, I added all I knew / was able to find. Will double check everything once the links start working again. If you see any errors, or things missing please let me know." 40,81428,2020-08-06T12:20:57.983Z,10273,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,80548,anon2794261635,anon2794261635,@anon3828707713 @anon1753543892 we need the number of attendees for each event we organized. Is there data for this? registration forms? 41,81429,2020-08-06T12:25:25.925Z,10273,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,81428,anon3828707713,anon2794261635,i think @anon 42,81438,2020-08-06T13:27:46.659Z,10273,1,11,10,1,0,0,42.2,55953,anon1753543892,anon2794261635,"I have some sheets I made for the festival for the purpose of reaching up to the participants signing up. I am not sure that those are complete, as for example also John reached out to some. here are the sheets I can find now: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q6eZvjUf-RdsLjFXveT5tgH8LP8WXs2FmwQx-Wlu_6U/edit?usp=sharing (44 people) the airtable is here: https://airtable.com/tblbEqXBmkN2semgv/viwHcamaAZd7PqOO2?blocks=hide, and it adds up mainly. (47 people) On the airtable people give information on their background, so I can get numbers from there. I think there were some more last minute participants who joined locally or via the platform short notice each event. the proposals are here, so these go in addition to the participants as this are involved people and organisers; (ca 19 people (with edgeryder staff) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D_CMPm43FDXg5EE_5zDk6C_A_yG6s25HrH4wPuRRP7I/edit#gid=0 This one is just for Eriks event, I made this a bit more in detail since he needed help reaching out: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NZLrQIOlq1JS5nJQZRdOQ5bAQdaTluDcXOV_XIzHkYw/edit?usp=sharing (8 people) And then the ""internetdagarna""in Stockholm should have added a very big number of people (with for some reason a very high percentage of librarians) we have to ask Hugi for where we can find the numbers for that. ## But maybe the best form of getting the approximativ numbers and stakeholder reports would be to take it from the forms we filled in for each of the events during/shortly after the event: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D_CMPm43FDXg5EE_5zDk6C_A_yG6s25HrH4wPuRRP7I/edit#gid=0 ### Taking form there the overview for the festival would be:
**Event name:** Anticipate ! Exploring Collective Intelligence Design Date 18/11; 28/11; 29/11 (3 days) Venue / location Saarbruecken, Germany Organiser Edgeryders, Soenke Zehle, Co-hosted by xm:lab - Experimental Media Lab, K8 of the Academy of Fine Arts Saar * **Number of attendees: 50** * **Stakeholders reached:** Local students (art academy, university, university of applied science), citizens active in fields such as eco-architecture, upcycling / circular economy, smes using open technologies, policy makers interested in the relationship between technological and non-technological innovation.
**Event name**: Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them Date 19/11 Venue / location Brussels Organiser Edgeryders **Number of attendees: 100** **Stakeholders reached:** Policymakers, entrepreneurs, innovators, civil society, tech industry insiders
**Event name:** Hackathon for Ethical Solutions to Unethical problems Date 22/11 - 24/11 (2 days) Venue / location Berlin Organiser Edgeryders **Number of attendees: 50** **Stakeholders reached: Technologists and entrepreneurs**
**Event name:** Internetdagarna Date 24/11/2019 - 25/11/2019 Venue / location Stockholm Waterfront Organiser The conference is organized by The Swedish Internet Foundation. **Number of attendees** 2000+ (* **Maybe 60 - 100 or so signed up with us/ talked to us**, we have numbers on that somewhere, have to ask @anon659222949 ) **Stakeholders reached:** Industry, policymakers, media, interested public
**Event name** Teaching Teachers Open Source Date 28/11 Venue / location Stockholm, Sweden Organiser Edgeryders, Erik Lönroth **Number of attendees 20** **Stakeholders reached FOSS Community, Teachers, Pedagogues, Trainers at University in Sweden**
**Event name** What does tech look like on a finite, post-climate change earth? Date 24/11 Venue / location Malmö, Sweden Organiser Edgeryders, Zenna Fiscanon4205961763 **Number of attendees 25-30** **Stakeholders reached Activists, researchers, artists**
**Event name** Workshop on Service design in a climate emergency - What do digital services in a world of net-zero look like? (+ talk: “Towards Carbon-Neutral Smart Cities” by Peter Bhir) Date 29/11 Venue / location Berlin, Germany Organiser Edgeryders, Chris Adams, Peter Bhir **Number of attendees 20** **Stakeholders reached Service Designers and providers from public and private sector**
There are also some more forms in this folder for other events outside the festival: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1y9HCkqjSciIUuRpVrojP3HaQ-NGwTDv4?usp=sharing
I think these estimates are what the organisers would report, even if not all attended in person, they were surely reached via the online conversation. We have the ticket signups from the airtable with peoples bio for the proof of their background structure and such. Should I make an overview of the reported backgrounds from the tickets signups? We should also include the events of this year correct? So for the share event with Nesta and DeLab, we have to ask them for the numbers and for the others I would need to do some more digging. Do we also count impressions on the posts/stories of the events? If a post was read by 500 - 2000 people, then that is also reaching some stakeholders isn't it?" 43,81443,2020-08-06T13:54:04.893Z,10273,0,11,10,1,1,0,7.2,81438,anon2794261635,anon1753543892,"ok, I added some numbers directly on the list above. Can you please address those with the question mark and edit? If there is no precise data it can also be an estimate. [quote=""anon1753543892, post:42, topic:10273""] Do we also count impressions on the posts/stories of the events? If a post was read by 500 - 2000 people, then that is also reaching some stakeholders isn’t it? [/quote] In this case no, because we are asked to add numbers of people who actually participated at an event. On the other hand (and for the part A of the report) we need to estimate the overall numbers of different stakeholders reached. For this, let's continue the conversation [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/preparing-for-ngi-periodic-report-01-2019-06-2020/13990)." 44,81684,2020-08-13T08:13:33.647Z,10273,0,11,10,1,1,0,37.2,55953,anon2860100070,anon2794261635,"[quote=""anon2794261635, post:1, topic:10273""] Digityser [/quote] Hi dear Marina, Location was DigitYser, Brussels, but the Organiser was me in collaboration with the support of Edgeryders. We were 15 people." 45,81722,2020-08-13T12:22:38.321Z,10273,1,11,10,2,1,0,17.2,55953,anon2860100070,anon2794261635,"[quote=""anon2794261635, post:1, topic:10273""] Organisers: Edgeryders [/quote] Could you tag me here, please? Organisers: @anon2860100070 in collaboration with Edgeryders" 46,81723,2020-08-13T12:29:00.835Z,10273,0,11,10,2,0,0,27.2,81722,anon2794261635,anon2860100070,of course! done. 48,81758,2020-08-14T05:57:49.837Z,10273,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,55953,anon3828707713,anon2794261635,Ok @anon2794261635 I added numbers I have that are verifiable rather than add too many everywhere. 49,84885,2020-10-13T14:20:43.816Z,10273,1,6,5,1,1,0,11.2,55953,anon2794261635,anon2794261635,"[quote=""anon2794261635, post:1, topic:10273""] **14/10** - [How can regions and cities work at a local level to ensure the national health and social care system can better respond to crises?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-regions-and-cities-work-at-a-local-level-to-ensure-the-national-health-and-social-care-system-can-better-respond-to-crises/13376) Type: workshop Category: public Location: online and in Brussels Organisers: DG Regio at European Commission Stakeholders: policy makers Edgeryders role: Coordinating an Edgeryders workshop within the larger event organised by DG regio to drive engagement to the platform and NGI conversation @anon3828707713 @anon [/quote] This is not happening right @anon3828707713?" 50,84887,2020-10-13T14:32:20.548Z,10273,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,84885,anon3828707713,anon2794261635,"no, it it has been modified and will run under a pop rebel flag instead" 51,84889,2020-10-13T14:36:44.422Z,10273,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,84887,anon2794261635,anon3828707713,"Ok, I'll modify" 52,84933,2020-10-14T06:58:42.153Z,10273,1,5,4,1,0,0,11.0,84885,anon3828707713,anon2794261635,@anon 53,84939,2020-10-14T07:20:52.480Z,10273,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,84933,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,Will do later today 54,84986,2020-10-14T13:49:51.546Z,10273,0,6,5,1,1,0,6.2,55953,anon1753543892,anon2794261635,"[quote=""anon2794261635, post:1, topic:10273""] * **21/10** - [Freelancing, Remote Work, Technology and ... Childcare?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/freelancing-remote-work-technology-and-childcare/14530/16) Type: Panel discussion with audience Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders, spread through Freelancer Week Stakeholders: Remote working parents Edgeryders role: @anon1753543892 organises, moderates and represented Edgeryders, questions asked as developed on the platform with input from ethno team. * **22/10** - [What freelancers really need - How can technology help freelancers to thrive and where do we desperately need to improve?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-freelancers-really-need-anon2696444391-can-technology-help-freelancers-to-thrive-and-where-do-we-desperately-need-to-improve/14488/22) Type: Panel discussion with audience Category: public Location: online Organisers: Edgeryders, spread through Freelancer Week Stakeholders: tech community, freelancers, remote workers, employers Edgeryders role: @anon1753543892 organises, moderates and represented Edgeryders, questions asked as developed on the platform with input from ethno team. [/quote] done" 55,90239,2021-01-22T07:42:19.508Z,10273,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,55962,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,@anon1753543892 could you add to the list the events that you have helped set up tell forms for in January this year? Better to do this while it's fresh... 56,90346,2021-01-25T11:04:39.416Z,10273,0,5,4,2,0,0,11.0,55953,anon1753543892,anon2794261635,updated 1,78447,2020-06-08T09:50:40.411Z,13818,0,17,16,56,0,0,298.4,78447,anon794158989,anon794158989,"I attended the [stakeholders’ dialogue on the future of internet governance](https://wetheinternet.org/) on June 6th, an event initiated as part of the United Nations’ Secretary-General *[High-Level Panel on Digital Cooperation](https://digitalcooperation.org/)* . For those who are interested, I wrote a full summary: [**The Future of Internet Governance.** ](https://schmud.de/posts/2020-06-06-internet-governance.html) I have mixed feelings on the UN internet governance initiatives, but I do think they can be important for intra-State conflicts. The UN is looking at three different models for coordination among stakeholders: 1. Internet Governance Forum+ (IGF+): this model reflects the current structure of internet governance and the United Nations, with some enhancements. 2. Digital Commons Architecture (DCA): a simplified structure of three bodies, a *tech panel*, a *digital commons platform*, and an *architecture secretariat*, that coordinate through the existing infrastructure at the United Nations. 3. Distributed Co-Governance (CoGov): two bodies, *network support platforms* and *digital cooperation networks* , that coordinate through a network of networks. I found the DCA a compelling, internet-native model that sacrifices some of the speed of more centralized UN control. I somewhat doubt they will implement the model, but it is one I lobbied for: ![image|514x433](upload://cz8lyTaJg6dqDJ7sjSqWNVVKcjc.png) Full details on all the rest in the [**The Future of Internet Governance** ](https://schmud.de/posts/2020-06-06-internet-governance.html) blog post, with pretty graphs." 2,78452,2020-06-08T10:47:35.296Z,13818,1,13,12,3,0,0,22.6,78447,anon3379761435,anon794158989,"Thanks for this, @anon794158989. I have not looked at the IGF for several years now – is it perceived as a forum for discussing tech standards and interoperability issues, or are values being discussed as well? Maybe my question is a bit unclear. I am interested in anon2696444391 values (for example, the inclusivity you mention) are encoded into technical choices. In the course of this project we have seen several examples at the level of the single technology ([see](/t/9569)). The IGF operates at a higher scale, and I am curious about the kind of discussions it hosts around what we have been called ""the human-centric Internet"". The UN is a club of states, and its power to override states are limited by design. So, I struggle to imagine, say, a discussion with Russia on anon2696444391 to fight disinformation online..." 3,78498,2020-06-08T16:02:23.718Z,13818,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,78452,anon794158989,anon3379761435,"The multi-stakeholder approach is supposed to give separate interests a seat at a table: states, business, citizen groups, etc.... I'm not convinced this works in practice, but that's the intent, at least. The entire endeavor has no power when dealing with individual states. There is an explicit ""no naming and shaming policy."" You may be an activist group working on behalf of citizen privacy with a seat at the table, but it's a big no-no to say that Russians using the internet to spy on their citizens. You and I agree that values can (and are) encoded into technical choices. At best, I think the UN is incentivized to maintain a free and open internet. IGF has favored wrestling DNS control out of the hands of the United States; I don't see them dis-incentivizing decentralized protocols built on top of TCP/IP like IPFS - to provide two examples. Conversely, I'd be curious to know if IGF has done any work on digital currencies outside of state control. I'd also be curious about their efforts in open source in the context of empowering the underprivileged (or from the UN perspective, ""developing nations""). Are you still using Scuttlebutt?" 4,78502,2020-06-08T16:51:27.260Z,13818,0,13,12,4,1,0,37.6,78498,anon3379761435,anon794158989,"[quote=""anon794158989, post:3, topic:13818""] You and I agree that values can (and are) encoded into technical choices. At best, I think the UN is incentivized to maintain a free and open internet. IGF has favored wrestling DNS control out of the hands of the United States; I don’t see them dis-incentivizing decentralized protocols built on top of TCP/IP like IPFS - to provide two examples. [/quote] That's not bad at all. I remember @anon [quote=""anon794158989, post:3, topic:13818""] Are you still using Scuttlebutt? [/quote] No, not really. I guess I have failed at taking root in that community. I opened Patchwork again today after your question, and found a two-month old message from @anon2682865457... :-(" 5,78598,2020-06-09T19:55:13.587Z,13818,1,14,13,1,0,0,27.8,78447,anon3203746736,anon794158989,"From a Doctorow tweet: A group of CMU researchers just presented ""What Should Be on an IoT Privacy and Security Label?"" at the IEEE Symposium on Security & Privacy. They present a model for ""privacy labels"" to clarify the privacy implications of IoT gadgets. " 6,78887,2020-06-13T09:42:32.170Z,13818,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,78598,anon794158989,anon3203746736,"Interesting. I always thought that PC game boxes were at the edge of what jargon could be placed on a box. But these old DOS games were relatively niche products compared to the future purchases of IoT devices. If your comptuer was not a ""IBM PC/XT/AT/Tandy mostly compatible 640K machine"" the game wouldn't work - the immediate feedback is a definite advantage. The implicit consent on the IoT label is much more complex, innocuous, and potentially dangerous. I imagine manufacturers will like these just to mitigate potential liabilities. I'm skeptical of internet governance initiatives, but I think that the best of good governance can protect individuals from predatory practices. Is it even reasonable to believe that the average consumer understands what's in this **Security and Privacy Overview**?" 7,78933,2020-06-15T15:04:45.146Z,13818,1,9,8,2,0,0,31.8,78887,anon3203746736,anon794158989,"I doubt it. And of course the language in those longer agreements can be tricky to interpret. One aspect I recall from my own experience reading and sometimes writing them is when the talk goes to who personal information gets share with, often you see something like ""we don't share your information except internally and with our partners.."" The word partner is problematic because there is not a real legal definition for partner in this context. It can mean anyone you want to call a partner. Thus, it means we can share your personal info with anyone we want." 8,78934,2020-06-15T15:05:46.475Z,13818,0,10,9,3,0,0,17.0,78933,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,I should add that I never myself wrote that line into a EULA. 10,79365,2020-06-22T18:29:20.794Z,13818,0,10,9,2,0,0,27.0,78447,anon794158989,anon794158989,"More requests for consent. Apple introduced new nutrition labels for App Store apps today. " 11,89974,2021-01-18T13:57:36.622Z,13818,1,6,5,1,0,0,26.2,78447,anon1753543892,anon794158989,"Dear @anon794158989 we would like to include this post by you into a book publication the ""NGI community Journalism Digest"" and wanted to ask for your permission to also include the text you link to here from your blog. Would you consent to that?" 12,90124,2021-01-20T19:33:19.297Z,13818,1,6,5,1,0,0,26.2,89974,anon794158989,anon1753543892,You are free to use both texts - this post and the text in the blog. Where is the best place to learn more about the publication? 13,90130,2021-01-20T20:52:23.587Z,13818,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,90124,anon1753543892,anon794158989,Great! We will surely soon make a post about it :) 1,80462,2020-07-14T13:15:25.011Z,14092,1,12,11,3,0,0,37.4,80462,anon3819120576,anon3819120576,"What if we could shift the ownership of personal data from corporations to individuals? In the long term, this has to be a better, fairer arrangement. I'm involved with a company that is trying to do just that. Dataswift (dataswift.io) Has developed a technology (the core technology was funded by the UK government and is open source) where individuals can hold their personal data on micro servers. These micro servers are linked up in an exchange, to enable ethical exchange of data. I'm Involved because of the governance aspects. The founders recognised that fair, transparent and impartial governance would be vital to the long-term success of the project. They set up An auanon2863106368omous not-for-profit company, a foundation, that is responsible for the governance (and holds a golden share in Dataswift). What would such governance look like? Who might be involved? How would you balance all the various interests to ensure the biggest benefit to the widest number of people? This is such a big question that the board of the foundation (of which I am a member) is thinking of creating a type of open source project to explore it. Does anyone have any thoughts, ideas or expertise to contribute to help take such a project forward? Any thoughts on anon2696444391 we might fund the project? Who might we involve? What technology might we use to host the conversation?" 2,80476,2020-07-14T15:44:22.616Z,14092,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,80462,anon3203746736,anon3819120576,"When you say ""hold their personal data"" do you mean everything that any government, company, org or other individual might collect? Does anyone have a way of know what it all even is?" 3,80491,2020-07-15T07:42:50.335Z,14092,1,11,10,1,1,0,12.2,80462,anon3379761435,anon3819120576,"The person who has thought most about this here is @anon3554654177. Yes, this idea of data wallets (what you call microservers) has been sloshing around for a while – I first heard about it in 2009. Governance is tricky, because one of the key interests (data holders) is so fragmented. By this I mean not only that there are many data holders, but that our individual contribution to the data economy is small, order of magnitude of, what? ~ 100 EUR per person per year? I would barely sign up for a scheme that returned to me ~20 EUR per year as a fair reward for contributing my data (OK, I would totally sign up, but for political reasons, and I am a data geek). I would definitely want to invest zero time in making it more share so that I can get 21 EUR instead (if internal democracy is super effective). To give you an idea, I am a member of the Italian main collecting society for music copyright monies. I have been for 30 years, and never once I voted in the elections for the board. Everybody in the board represents large copyright holders. I make maybe 4-5,000 EUR a year from that direction, so I would vote if I saw a decent alternative, but the big boys have an iron grip on he whole affair, so that's that. [quote=""anon3819120576, post:1, topic:14092""] creating a type of open source project to explore it. [/quote] This is a great idea. Looking forward to it. In fact, if you need an online forum, you can have one of ours." 4,80512,2020-07-15T10:35:05.607Z,14092,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,80476,anon3819120576,anon3203746736,"That seems like an impossible task John, as you imply. At the moment Dataswift is developing tools to harvest data from Facebook, Spotify, Fitbit, Google and so on. As the project develops, no doubt the ability to gather more and more data, including data from governments, credit rating agencies and so on will ramp up." 5,80513,2020-07-15T10:39:21.501Z,14092,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,80491,anon3819120576,anon3379761435,"thanks @anon3379761435. I agree with your analysis that getting people engaged is tricky, because the perceived value is low. We need to have some sort of legitimate proxy to speak for the masses. I feel we should avoid a representative democracy - where individuals elected in some sub-optimal way purport to speak on behalf of the masses. Maybe we can do something like the Apache Software Foundation, where individuals who have sanon2696444391n to be interested and committed get invited to be members, and they in turn appoint a board of trustees. Thanks for the offer of a forum. If I wanted to take you up on it, anon2696444391 would I go about it?" 6,80522,2020-07-15T11:22:52.024Z,14092,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,80513,anon3379761435,anon3819120576,"Thanks for the offer of a forum. If I wanted to take you up on it, anon2696444391 would I go about it? Just reply here, and @anon659222949 or I will follow up on it. As you maybe remember, there are two main ways: * You can have your own category on anon1577251828.eu, which we would do for free. I would set it up for you myself, and then you are good to go. * Or you can have your own forum under https://communities.anon1577251828.eu. We have six sites up at the moment beyond this one, and Uni Stockholm has asked for yet another one. This solution is cheap but not free. The advantage is you get more control on your site and more separation. Still, there is single sign in: the same login credentials work on all of the sites. But each site has its own admins, who control what users can do on their site. For example, I am a site admin on Edgeryders, but an ordinary user on all other sites." 7,80531,2020-07-15T12:04:50.932Z,14092,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,80522,anon3819120576,anon3379761435,"Thanks @anon3379761435, I think for now at least having our own category on anon1577251828.eu would be a good option." 8,80532,2020-07-15T12:09:12.270Z,14092,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,80531,anon3379761435,anon3819120576,"Ok. Do you want a top-level category or do you prefer a sub-category of [Internet of Humans](#ioh), to take advantage of the already ongoing discussion here? All you need to give me is a name and a logo for a top-level category (look to the home page of Edgeryders for inspiration). For a sub-cat all I need is a name." 9,80533,2020-07-15T12:13:23.511Z,14092,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,80462,anon3819120576,anon3819120576,"Internet of Humans sub-category would be fine. Name: ""Governing the exchange of data""" 10,80540,2020-07-15T12:48:46.301Z,14092,0,9,8,1,0,0,36.8,80533,anon3379761435,anon3819120576,"Created. I transferred to you the ownership of the [About this category](/t/14100) topic, that gets created automatically and pinned to the top. I suggest you make the necessary edits, also indicating that you yourself are the go-to person for this category. I am sure @anon3203746736 and @anon1753543892 will be happy to support you if you need support. I also moved this topic to the new category." 11,89531,2021-01-08T11:20:42.897Z,14092,0,4,3,2,0,0,10.8,80462,anon1753543892,anon3819120576,Is this sub category still used or should we move this back in the general IOH? 12,89845,2021-01-13T15:32:16.642Z,14092,1,4,3,1,0,0,10.8,80462,anon3819120576,anon3819120576,"Hi Maria, I think you can move it back to the main category. It never really took off. Thanks!" 13,89847,2021-01-13T16:10:53.364Z,14092,0,3,2,1,0,0,5.6,89845,anon1753543892,anon3819120576,thank you for the answer 3,88586,2020-12-08T09:13:36.196Z,15076,0,16,15,1,0,0,53.2,88562,anon1753543892,,"A anon2488317424 animation with some of the questions we already have been receiving: ![AMA Psychology Flyers (1)|690x388](upload://t6Xa860zDVpdbAil8O3UzvWU8WI.gif)" 6,87667,2020-11-26T06:19:28.946Z,15076,1,19,18,2,0,0,48.8,88562,anon995479489,,**What would you really like to ask a psychologist Erik Bohjort?:**
What do you think of the notion of knowledge sports? Under what conditions could knowledge-based sports be popular in high schools and colleges like esports?

7,88117,2020-12-03T13:02:41.460Z,15076,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,88562,anon3828707713,,"Hi Erik, Looking forward to the AMA. I'm curious about anon2696444391 time perspective plays into thinking around behaviours when it comes to tech? Am attempting to get some thoughts together before the ama: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-many-digital-technologies-infrastructures-and-businesses-will-be-around-1000-years-from-now/15043" 8,88152,2020-12-03T17:57:00.984Z,15076,1,17,16,2,0,0,63.4,88562,anon3203746736,,"I am interested in the (metaphorical and inherently fuzzy) line between tech influencing child behavior and the role of active parenting. I grew up in the USA in the 50s and 60s. My friends and I had amazing freedom to 'go out and play' usually with the instruction to simply return home for dinner. And there were no bike helmets either. It's almost unheard of now. But - that was a world where the mothers in the neighborhood (urban and suburban - I lived in both as a child) did not usually have jobs. That meant that as a kid if you had a bad problem or an injury, there was a mother at home nearby. Even if you didn't know her, it is almost certain that she would have helped you. So, there was more risk, but more help was usually available. Now most mothers work, usually at a job away from the home. And they still have to keep the home scene together, unless they have unusually supportive husbands. This means they don't have much time to understand, and then monitor, their kid's online activities. And much of today's info/communication tech - especially smart phone/tablet apps - is so easy to use that any enterprising kid, even very young, can tunnel their way into almost anything, such as hardcore porn, which just tends to ask you if you are over 18, to which you can simply click 'yes.' The European trend seems to be to more heavily regulate technology, plus put in options for parental control. But regulation always seems to play catchup when it comes to tech. And these days, companies like Google, Facebook and Amazon have so much money they can, and do, constantly create new ways to influence and even manipulate behavior. Can these problems be solved, or even much helped, by technology? And if so, do you know what is on the horizon?" 9,88165,2020-12-03T21:07:54.119Z,15076,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,88562,anon1222839618,,"**What would you really like to ask a psychologist Erik Bohjort?:**
Loneliness, anon2696444391 do you fight it? :) https://anon1577251828.eu/t/loneliness-anon2696444391-do-you-fight-it/15045

" 11,88390,2020-12-07T08:17:55.354Z,15076,1,17,16,2,0,0,48.4,88562,anon4371252,,"**What would you really like to ask a psychologist Erik Bohjort?:**
Trying to integrate as a refugee in a new country requires a lot of behavioral change. What would be multiple lines to approach that change, knowing that most refugees will deal with (tremendous) loss and trauma, while avoiding post-migration stress and trauma .

" 12,88571,2020-12-08T04:33:20.637Z,15076,1,15,14,1,0,0,43.0,88562,anon1558208875,,"**What would you really like to ask a psychologist Erik Bohjort?:**
I have just came back to my country after I went abroad for a couple of years. I acknowledge that I have changed a lot that I am more honest with myself. I am now experiencing reverse shock culture and have a anon2373157426 hard time to adjust. I also aware that I become defensive from my childhood trauma. I was a people pleaser (I am still but way much lesser) and always think about what people gonna think about me. I wanna learn anon2696444391 to brace myself to go out from the shell and wear the new wings without being defensive.

" 13,88617,2020-12-08T14:00:13.621Z,15076,1,14,13,1,0,0,27.8,88562,anon4046128282,,Hi @anon 16,88731,2020-12-09T16:36:26.395Z,15076,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,88562,anon3203746736,,"I think we all agree that technology can and does manipulate people at the individual and the group levels, often with consequences. But anon2696444391 can one even know or discern if she or he, or their children are being manipulated by technology? Is it a ""frog in the hot water"" situation where you can't really tell until it is ""too late""?" 18,88738,2020-12-09T17:30:54.676Z,15076,1,15,14,1,0,0,28.0,87667,,anon995479489,"@anon995479489, I love that you asked this question before I had the chance to include in my bio that I have been part of some amateur e-sports! Now I am in no way an expert when it comes to what is or makes something popular in high school and college, but I will reason with you for a bit. I imagine that watchability, but also tradition are some of the driving factors when it comes to what is popular. So regarding watchability I see some problems that need to be solved for knowledge-sports to bloom. Me as a viewer, I need to in some way understand what is going on, what sets a good play or player apart from an average one. This understanding is hard to create and sanon2696444391case in the same way as football, soccer or basketball as knowledge-sports inherently are harder to understand. My first two ideas, possible part solutions to explore: - Sanon2696444391case competition in lower than the absolute top levels of performance so that the best practicioners can analyse and explain what is going on and why this is exciting to see. We already see examples of this within some e-sports and chess communities. - Build the sport so that the viewer can access more information about the game state than the competitors and as such understand easier and faster what is going on. Thank you for the question, I'd love to discuss this further! /Erik" 19,88739,2020-12-09T17:31:43.546Z,15076,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,88737,anon4046128282,,"Thank you @anon Has the Covid-19 pandemic effected the ways in which you think about the importance of digital learning tools for education? If so, anon2696444391? What have you observed about the shifting role of digital education tools and e-learning during the pandemic? How might this shape education in the future?" 21,88741,2020-12-09T17:43:53.327Z,15076,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,88562,anon1753543892,,"Do you think that there is a sense in making educational technology intentionally ""hard"" as to generate learning experiences in overcoming hurdles, or do you think that in that case they just never stand any chance against ""easy"" commercial/entertainment products? I guess that also goes for behavioural change in general. Changing your behaviour is hard, can ""easy"" UX help, or is it maybe even counterproductive in some cases as it creates false impressions and expectations and there will always be another even easier version that might be focused more on entertainment? ( In this context I like to bring up the story from our pannel on freelancing and childcare, where a parent who temselves grew up exploring tech early by himself originally planned to introduce tech to their children as soon as possible, but after seeing their 2 year old interact with and ipad with out any challenging expiriences shifted thei opinion 180 degree and decided to limit their tech contact heavyly since modern ""easy"" ux is not chalenging creativity or learning in their opinion.)" 22,88742,2020-12-09T17:46:29.463Z,15076,0,15,14,1,1,0,23.0,88562,anon3203746736,,"[quote=""anon For example, private finance education in schools for children is often found to have no effect on the financial literacy of the children. [/quote] Is there some point at which it does start to have an effect? I am not very good at math. Never have been. I got by in school, but never that well. I did understand that arithmetic was part of regular life so that part is fine. But deeper math has always been a struggle. But in school I don't remember ever being told for example that if you want to build something it will go a lot better if you understand geometry. (Often when working on my house I wish I had understood it better.) And with personal finance - I doubt I ever would have paid attention to it as a child as you suggest. (I grew up in a solid middle class household that always got the bills paid on time and the pantry was always full.) But by high school I might have paid attention to some aspects of personal/private finance had someone linked it better to reality of daily life. As in ""here is anon2696444391 to not go broke, which you probably will if you don't pay attention."" For me, school often had that disconnect between what they teach and my daily life when it comes to math." 24,88744,2020-12-09T17:50:44.480Z,15076,0,15,14,1,0,0,38.0,88165,,anon1222839618,"@anon1222839618 a very central question in todays pandemic society and one that many struggle with. My premier tip: If there is a way for you to share your loneliness feelings with any family or friends that you might have. Then this might be one of the best ways for them to be notified and as such be able to help you and be there for and with you. /Erik" 26,88746,2020-12-09T17:57:18.623Z,15076,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,88743,anon1753543892,,"Children learn behaviour from parents. Which means they watch them on their phones and laptops all the time. It becomes one of those things like alkohol where parents say it is ok for them but not for children. We ays ""you should go out and play, you should not be in front of the screen all day"". But many adults do just that. Behavioural change in terms of technology use for children maybe has to start with adults. What are good ways to monitor and balnce your own technology use, social media intake and anon2696444391 you balance that out with other activities? @anon3203746736, maybe aktively parenting becomes the attempt to actively live the lifestyle you would like to see? WHich does not mean not using tech as that is not possible nor good in today's world. But to use it in a ""good way"" and to also do creative and outside stuff, which is also good for you. That would bring that back to working on your own behaviour, or on that of other adults to start out with." 28,88750,2020-12-09T18:10:31.805Z,15076,1,14,13,3,1,0,22.8,88745,anon1753543892,,"[quote=""anon I see that the period directly after the migration can be a central period of time where one has the opportunity to try and implement behaviours that will help the individual in the long term. /Erik [/quote] That makes sense. Sadly it is just in this period that refugees are often hindered from many things, for example working or even exploring their new surroundings by burocratical hurdles. Did you experience any of those/know someone who did @anon4371252 and anon2696444391 did you/they react to it/deal with it?" 29,88751,2020-12-09T18:13:53.532Z,15076,2,14,13,1,0,0,62.8,88745,anon4046128282,,@anon 30,88752,2020-12-09T18:14:12.302Z,15076,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,88562,anon1753543892,,"Time seems to be one of the things that come back as a crucial topic in relation to behavioural change, in adults, in children, in technology development. Would be very interested in learning something about this project you mentioned in reaction to @anon3828707713 's questions regarding time you are working with @anon" 32,88754,2020-12-09T18:19:27.427Z,15076,1,13,12,1,1,0,12.6,88749,anon1753543892,,"[quote=""anon Perhaps we can, continuing on my idea from my former reply, give the childen more agency in their learning with adaptable digital tools that do not require them or their educators to work within coherent lessons or classes? [/quote] asyncronos working is also something that is extremle important for everyone working remotely and something where currently a lot of people/organisations can be observed struggeling with changing their behaviour. They just make every former in person meeting into a zoom meeting and it is far from effective. This connects to our research on remote working: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/research-findings-on-good-practices-of-distributed-organizations-culture-communication-and-technology/14871" 33,88755,2020-12-09T18:21:01.106Z,15076,0,13,12,1,1,0,7.6,88753,anon1753543892,,"[quote=""anon I would love do discuss this more, I have some other examples on anon2696444391 effort affect learning! [/quote] That would certainly be interesting." 34,88756,2020-12-09T18:24:30.549Z,15076,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,88750,anon4371252,anon1753543892,"I recognize that the first period, in which it is still uncertain whether they would get a residence permit, is hardly the best time to change. Even when given a permit it's not clear in which municipality they will be offered housing. They spend their days in refugee locations, having very anon2488317424 outlook on their future." 36,88758,2020-12-09T18:28:07.194Z,15076,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,88751,anon3203746736,anon4046128282,"Speaking of influencing behavior, classrooms have always had daydreamers, slackers, cutups, note passers and all the rest. And teachers to notice. Now in the virtual learning world there is anon2488317424 if any of that. And it would have to be an invasive tech fix. Teacher not just watching your face on the zoom screen, but can see if you are truly paying attention is something tech could do, and it would influence behavior. But do we want that? And if not that, what, given the ever-shortening time of the attention span?" 37,88759,2020-12-09T18:41:56.249Z,15076,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,88758,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,...not to mention all the distractions from learning of a home or public internet setting for a refugee. 39,88761,2020-12-09T18:45:13.026Z,15076,0,12,11,1,0,0,37.4,88752,,anon1753543892,The time will come! :slight_smile: 41,88764,2020-12-09T18:59:59.004Z,15076,0,13,12,1,0,0,67.6,88562,,,"Thank you all for this AMA-session, and all of the interesting questions and discussions - I look forward to continuing our conversations! I will now wrap up for the night, but I hold the ambition to get back to every single one of you over the course of the next few days. Again, thank you all who have contributed anon2863106368ight; @anon995479489 @anon3828707713 @anon3203746736 @anon1222839618 @anon4371252 @anon1558208875 @anon4046128282 @anon1753543892 All the best, Erik" 42,88765,2020-12-09T19:00:47.165Z,15076,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,88562,anon1753543892,,"Thank you for your time and expertise @anon We would be very happy to welcome you back in our community here, in the mentioned linked conversations and of course anything that might interest you anytime. :)" 43,88766,2020-12-09T21:17:27.358Z,15076,1,13,12,1,0,0,42.6,88562,anon2594087572,,Hi @anon 44,88778,2020-12-10T09:38:11.786Z,15076,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,88740,anon3828707713,,"super, thanks - will do! ping @anon1753543892 :)" 45,88852,2020-12-11T15:39:34.470Z,15076,0,11,10,3,0,0,17.2,88562,anon1753543892,, 47,89011,2020-12-15T16:28:28.147Z,15076,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,88738,anon995479489,,"Hi @anon I totally love synchronicity when it occurs. Thank you so much for your insight and ideas! With respect to idea #1, can you point to examples within an e-sports community where the practicioners analyse action that is not at the top level, explain what is going on, and why this is exciting to see? With respect to idea #2, I immediately see this a game changer. We had not thought as much about the spectator although we have been thinking about curators. I think it would be interesting in live competitions to zoom into what an individual is doing (e.g., watch their thought process evolve as they build artifacts, what they search on) and to zoom out to the high level view of what all the participants are creating. Like having binoculars at a sporting event. I am imagining the high level view being visual and maybe having some stats as well. The zoom out would also be useful for asynchronous competitions. Another question. What do you think the benefits of having the user submit video explaining their thought process (explaining what they did and why it matters) as well as the knowledge artifacts they create? Thank you!" 49,89065,2020-12-16T13:58:36.049Z,15076,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,89053,anon1753543892,,ping @anon3828707713 : erik has signalled interest looking at the challenges of establishing asynchronous work in remote settings from a behavioural research perspective. Might be interesting to include that in the remote work consulting project. 51,89068,2020-12-16T14:28:08.610Z,15076,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,89011,,anon995479489,"@anon995479489 absolutely, I see potential in anon2696444391 streamers as [Chessbrah](https://www.twitch.tv/chessbrah), [Jayne](https://www.twitch.tv/jayne) and [SaltyPhish](https://www.twitch.tv/saltyphish) as well as organisations such as [EloHell](https://www.twitch.tv/elohellesports) have done. For even more specificity I would recommend checking out The Phish Bowl: [Video 1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXYtOCeuPcs) and [Video 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfzDbG2ly9o). I will return to further answer your questions! All the best, E" 53,89460,2021-01-06T18:31:37.984Z,15076,0,7,6,1,0,0,36.4,88562,anon995479489,,"Thanks so much @anon And happy new year. Btw the way, do you know much about fake news and misinformation? We are having a panel at the https://theoverweb.com/challenge and I am wondering if someone like yourself might have some interesting things to say on why people share the fake news, what we need to think about regards to mitigation, and anon2696444391 the Internet makes it hard to deal with the problem." 1,54081,2019-05-28T11:24:49.450Z,10017,0,78,77,319,0,0,1745.6,54081,anon1608948641,anon1608948641,"Hi, I'm [Christian Buggedei](https://www.buggedei.de/), and I was one of the last remaining Google+ users. I joined when I still believed in Googles ""Don't be Evil"" motto. For years, I used it as my primary method for social communications. I shared pictures, thoughts, had intense debates about copyright, democracy, and changing economies with authors, publishers, end users, and activists alike, and used it as a resource for my hobbies. Over this, I got to know a number of good and interesting people, and would still say that my life was generally richer. But I also saw the nym-wars (when Google forced everyone to use their real name, driving away a lot of people), the rise of spambots, online harassment, intransparent moderation policies, and so on. When they announced that G+ would shut down, I sighed and looked around for alternatives. I [even made a spreadsheet](https://drive.google.com/open?id=14KPoeMOVo4Sr4y43kj01tdm4xi2wsuIh_HZxsfi92vA) to check the featuresets of the various commercial and open source offerings. And found them all lacking in one way or the other: Some are pretty but miss out on important features, some can do it all but have an actively hostile user interface, some look neat but then come unmoderated or have no safeguards against harassment, and so on. And I don't even want to go into the mess that is every ad-driven business model (I worked in the online advertising space for three years, trust me, it IS a mess.) So, I've now gathered [a merry band of misfits](https://darcy.is/who-is-darcy/) to create something better. [Darcy](https://darcy.is) is supposed to become a human-centric, decentralized, privacy-friendly but open, safe, open source online civic space. It's a long and rocky road, but I think it'll be worth it. We can't solve all the problems, but some are doable." 2,54106,2019-05-28T22:14:34.459Z,10017,1,63,62,2,0,0,57.6,54081,anon659222949,anon1608948641,"Hi, and welcome to Edgeryders! I share your passion for better platforms, though my thinking is often geared towards anon2696444391 it can help people collaborate and make decisions together, as well as share their lives and thoughts. I applaud the effort and intention! I'll be sure to keep an eye on this. I checked out your spreadsheet and it helped me understand where you're seeing an opportunity. A lot of the time, I find myself choosing the tech because of some single angle that is the most important one for the particular case. For [The Borderland](http://theborderland.se/), we use Loomio because we make anon2373157426 a few decisions in large groups and their features for that are second to none. So do [Kiezburn]( [https://kiezburn.org](https://kiezburn.org/)) in Berlin, by the way. Being 10x better than the competition at *one thing* can make up for being a bit worse at other things, but just being 2x better at everything is often to expensive for people to make the switch. If Darcy had such a 10x improvement, what would it be?" 3,54126,2019-05-29T08:46:04.621Z,10017,1,59,58,3,1,0,91.8,54106,anon1608948641,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:2, topic:10017""] If Darcy had such a 10x improvement, what would it be? [/quote] Ease of use and the online civic space. The first thing should be self-explanatory, the latter is not exactly an improvement but an evolutionary step. Social Media encompasses a range of different communication and community models. I call that the [bedroom-to-broadcast scale](https://darcy.is/the-bedroom-to-broadcast-scale-of-communication-spaces/). The problem is that most if not all social media platforms treat all these spaces basically the same, giving us the same toolsets. And that doesn't work. Moderation and policy guidelines that are supposed to make a nice and kid-friendly TV broadcast cannot apply to that sort-of-but-not-anon2373157426-private conversation at the pub. What we set out to do is to give people an idea of what kind of space they are talking in, and give them tools to cope when a conversation is suddenly exposed to a more public space than initially intended. On top of that, we make every effort to include an as diverse as possible range of people and their different threat models. If you have a stalker, you need to lock down your online presence in a different way than if you are an LGTBQ* person living in an oppressive regime. The result should hopefully be a true global civic space, where people can reach out to humans everywhere, but also have the local communities. Darcy will complement but not supersede collaboration tools like Loomio." 4,54139,2019-05-29T11:36:47.238Z,10017,1,49,48,1,1,0,34.8,54126,anon3379761435,anon1608948641,"Nice to meet you, Christian! [quote=""anon1608948641, post:3, topic:10017""] What we set out to do is to give people an idea of what kind of space they are talking in, and give them tools to cope when a conversation is suddenly exposed to a more public space than initially intended. [/quote] This looks like a social conventions problem, rather than a technical problem. What I mean is: _exactly the same road_ can be made much less dangerous if everyone agrees to drive on the right side. I have so far inhabited mostly mainstream social networks, but assuming no privacy and thus exercising self-censorship. I assume I am in the digital equivalent of a crowded restaurant: people will normally ignore me, but they can easily eavesdrop, and if I start acting crazy I will attract attention. For example, I don't swear online. Is Darcy trying to solve those problems by throwing code at them? How do you envision it?" 5,54141,2019-05-29T12:09:41.322Z,10017,1,48,47,1,1,0,34.6,54139,anon1608948641,anon3379761435,"Code isn't the solution, so we'll be throwing people at the problems. Well, people and policies, and a bit of code. * The UX will be optimized so that users understand what they're about to do or post * We will add in self-help features, so that people who get mobbed online can mute, report, block, lock down, and have other functions that enable them to get safe * Darcy will offer moderation as a service. So if you run a Darcy instance (the whole thing will be decentralized), you can subscribe to that service instead of relying on volunteers. We offer this, because doing so properly is not easy and needs training and support. The other thing is that platforms that rely on algorithmic feeds are much more susceptible to things like dogpiling for example. We set up the interaction models in a way that will hopefully at least not excarbate conflict as some of the current platforms do. [quote=""anon3379761435, post:4, topic:10017""] I have so far inhabited mostly mainstream social networks, but assuming no privacy and thus exercising self-censorship. [/quote] that is very similar to what I do too. And it works, along a few other things I do or don't do online. (I do swear occasionally, but I know when and where ;) ) I think that a good civic space lets people know, through the UX, what to expect and anon2696444391 to behave in order to get the most out of it. That is part of what we want to achieve." 6,54143,2019-05-29T12:40:37.369Z,10017,1,47,46,1,1,0,49.4,54141,anon3379761435,anon1608948641,"[quote=""anon1608948641, post:5, topic:10017""] I think that a good civic space lets people know, through the UX, what to expect and anon2696444391 to behave in order to get the most out of it. [/quote] Oh, I agree. But specifics differ, depending on who you ask. An important question is what we mean by ""letting people know"". For example, Edgeryders has a well thought-through [netiquette page](/t/45). It was re-written several times, and ultimately decided upon by @anon3203746736, the world's first-ever online community manager (at [The Well](https://www.well.com/), pre-Internet). It is accessible through a menu printed on top of every page. Have we let people know? How many people here are aware of that page? Not many, I'd wager. In Edgeryders, this is not a big problem, because we model humans online as thinking adults. They own their words. They have a responsibility to be aware of what is considered excellent/good/acceptable/unacceptable behavior. The netiquette page is just there as a reference. We don't care if people have read it or not, they are still held to the same standards. Many people disagree with us. It seems to me that the Ix/Ux tradition, for example, was developed in a commercial context. Commercial companies model humans online rather as desire machines (thinking adults are tricky customers) and aim to gratify them. Though designers have amazing useful skills, I tend to be weary of the culture that spawned them. Paradoxically, this has come to influence my aesthetics: the abrasive, no-nonsense look of the [Mother### website](https://motherfuckingwebsite.com/) inspires trust in me, whereas I instinctively mistrust anything too sleek. I guess what I am trying to say is ""social media is broken, let's *be* better!"". But even that would be naive, since technological affordances definitely influence social outcomes (though they do not determine them)." 7,54153,2019-05-29T14:05:00.357Z,10017,1,44,43,2,1,0,83.8,54143,anon1608948641,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:6, topic:10017""] It seems to me that the Ix/Ux tradition, for example, was developed in a commercial context. Commercial companies model humans online rather as desire machines (thinking adults are tricky customers) and aim to gratify them. Though designers have amazing useful skills, I tend to be weary of the culture that spawned them. [/quote] I view this in a more optimistic light. Computers and the Internet are complex systems, and not everyone needs to nor wants to understand all the intricacies of them. Sure, we could format our reports and letters via LaTeX, but frankly, any word processing software that wraps the functionality into a few easy to understand butanon2863106368s does the trick too for most of us. Online platforms that allow people to communicate within a wide range of models _(1:1, 1:many, many:many, private, open, open to friends-of-friends, and so on)_ need to give users feedback and information on the fly so they know which mode and setting is active, and if it is appropriate. If the platform caters to just one type of audience, and centers around a specific interest or topic, that informs the audience directly on anon2696444391 to behave. And people can lurk before participating, so they follow the existing examples. With an open and global platform, it is a lot harder to set these existing examples, because one does not know, with which subset the new member will interact first, nor with which topic. Good UX guides them, informs the newbies about the presets and their reasoning, and so on. Imagine you see someone else post racist hate speech. Depending on which options and anon2696444391 visible these are, you might just put that person on an ""ignore"" list and move on. Or you actively block the racist. Or maybe report the content to moderators, but leave the person unblocked, because doing both requires too much effort through the interface. UX can make or break anon2696444391 people interact with each other as a community, and especially with open source projects it is often enough added as an afterthought. (Which is not meant to diss open source.)" 8,54274,2019-05-30T21:48:47.719Z,10017,1,40,39,1,0,0,63.0,54081,anon3214242932,anon1608948641,"Interesting with Darcy! Regarding social media I think it's important to ask, since everyone becomes sort of a publishing platform, if the press ethics should apply to each user? Such as in Sweden where each public database or newspaper needs a ""responsible publisher"" which is responsible and can be reported to the police for its publications - I'm not sure the level of thinking and responsibility is educated and raised enough for social media? Maybe the legislation is way too obsolete for today but it historically created an etiquette which could work online as a ""netiquette"" without filtering speech. Also, for your overview, have you seen https://www.openbook.social/en/home ?" 9,54317,2019-05-31T13:18:34.592Z,10017,1,41,40,1,1,0,18.2,54274,anon1608948641,anon3214242932,"[quote=""anon3214242932x, post:8, topic:10017""] Also, for your overview, have you seen https://www.openbook.social/en/home ? [/quote] I have - I'm actually in the betatest after throwing some money at their Indiegogo campaign :). The spreadsheet is outdated by about half a year, I probably should update it, but haven't found the time for that yet. OpenBook has a few good things going, but their ""have an app first"" approach doesn't anon2373157426 do things for me. It makes access cumbersome to people like me who don't use the phone for primary access. Also, it limits the content to small bites of text plus pictures - or rather: Pictures with small bites of text. Which isn't anon2373157426 what *I* am looking for in social media." 10,54322,2019-05-31T15:00:17.916Z,10017,0,41,40,1,1,0,13.2,54317,anon3379761435,anon1608948641,"[quote=""anon1608948641, post:9, topic:10017""] Pictures with small bites of text. Which isn’t anon2373157426 what *I* am looking for in social media. [/quote] I can sympathize with that!" 11,54340,2019-05-31T19:30:29.650Z,10017,1,40,39,1,0,0,33.0,54081,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,"There is a lot that Facebook gets right with their UI. Pleasant looking, good uploading tools, decent screen organization, easy scrolling interface as a few examples. So I would not throw out things they do get right. And then there are things like using the back butanon2863106368 to see something you just looked at and oops, you are let off on the side of some road in another part of town so to speak. Or an inability to just ""dial down"" seeing a friend's comments rather than having to shut them off completely if you are tired of seeing the same rants too often. Those are just a couple of a set of manipulations that add up to why millions of us use it and hate it at the same time." 12,54356,2019-06-01T10:06:20.272Z,10017,2,38,37,1,0,0,52.6,54340,anon1608948641,anon3203746736,"a lot of those UI ""quirks"" on Facebook are done with purpose - they encourage reloading the stream and foster FOMO (fear of missing out). It is good if your business model needs those interactions in order to sell more ads. It's bad for humans though, generally. The question we have to ponder is: How much of these UI quirks are needed to encourage people to interact with each other, and when should we stop. Image a dinner party, where the host gently prompts conversation and then gets gracefully out of the way once this happens, versus another host that constantly brings up party games and keeps nudging everyone to talk up." 13,54362,2019-06-01T14:13:48.993Z,10017,1,37,36,1,0,0,32.4,54356,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,I think the real idea is you should be able to decide anon2696444391 you want it rather than them deciding for you. 14,54586,2019-06-05T13:28:23.410Z,10017,1,35,34,1,0,0,17.0,54362,anon1608948641,anon3203746736,"Mostly, this is true. But a platform could come with sane and helpful presets, and as one cannot make all functions and butanon2863106368s equally available, the decisions of which functions and settings are front and center has anon2373157426 a few ramifications." 15,54650,2019-06-06T15:07:26.152Z,10017,1,35,34,1,0,0,17.0,54586,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,I agree. Sane and helpful presets is a good way to say it. And of course a user can never completely control the interfaces they use. 16,54651,2019-06-06T15:10:56.030Z,10017,0,34,33,1,0,0,11.8,54650,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,I guess in some ways it comes back to that phrase ‘you aren’t the customer you are the product.’ Kind of a cliche at this point but it is a basic truth. You listen to your customers and you control your product. 17,55114,2019-06-13T21:11:45.755Z,10017,0,36,35,1,0,0,72.2,54356,anon2489867874,anon1608948641,"Edit - FB just got dropped from an investment list of ""socially responsible companies""...... https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/13/facebook-dumped-from-sp-esg-index-of-socially-responsible-companies.html Remember, FB didn't really come into being to become what it became! It reminds me of Windows - a hairball which billions was constantly thrown at to morph into what it needed to be to stay relevant. I think those of us who dislike many aspects of it...but still attend, are there for a simple reason. The same reason one may go to London or NYC...it's where the people are. It's not set up as a discussion or information or curation medium, although for many it functions as one. Putting it another way, they don't really know what they are doing in terms of a long term plan...because, if they did, they wouldn't have kept building on top of a platform not designed for change. They are always behind the 8-ball as opposed to in front of it, as evidenced by their attempts to now gain some control (moderation) of things. Those with community experience could have predicted all of this long ago - as a Street Cop said about Chicago in a book I just read ""Let them (societies less civil members) have their way and soon the city will be nothing but sticks and huts"". One can think of the Cop as a Moderator. Perhaps the future is back to the smaller sites and forum communities. Meetup, for example, works in some good ways. Nextdoor is a pretty cool idea and, so far, I haven't seem much acting out there. Both are largely based local...and on ""time frame"" events. That leaves a lot of room for forums and communities which are much less so, like anon2696444391 to fix my 1967 Bosanon2863106368 Whaler Boat (yep, there is a forum for that!). We pioneers have to chuckle and yet cry....remembering when the word ""monetize"" didn't exist. No ""exit plans"". But rather ""brain dumps"" so that what you know becomes what I know." 18,55420,2019-06-19T10:59:45.859Z,10017,1,31,30,1,0,0,16.2,54081,anon1608948641,anon1608948641,"At the community call yesterday, I've been asked about anon2696444391 Darcy would monetize the moderation. This is a service that instance owners can subscribe to. They'd be billed a monthly fee based on anon2696444391 many users they have. As a result, Darcy moderators would react to reports coming from this instance. The challenge here is that we have different instances federating with each other. So we have instances that are full of adults, some that are aimed at kids, some that don't want any outside interference, some are Darcy subscribers, others aren't. The end result is that while anyone can try to federate with Darcy subscribing instances, instances that don't effectively self-regulate according to a global minimum standard will be cut off from the Darcy side of the federation. Yes, this splinters the Fediverse, but that is happening with or without Darcy anyway. This way it'll be at least in tune with transparent and documented guidelines." 19,55436,2019-06-19T14:26:01.130Z,10017,0,32,31,1,0,0,11.4,54081,anon1758400449,anon1608948641,"Hey, I had a quick look at the original post but not all the discussion yet. I had a sit-down with a couple of profs and students in Stanford on a somewhat related point a few months ago. To make a long story very, very short: My flavor is more the issue/subject matter driven social network, which I see as somewhat different from the shall we say ""Dunbar"" driven really social (and social hierarchy e.g. linkedin) network(s). Three relevant names in that context: [Pamela Hinds](https://profiles.stanford.edu/pamela-hinds), [Elisa Matterelli](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Elisa_Mattarelli) (probably the most interesting here), [Noshir Contractor](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Noshir_Contractor) (perhaps the most lively curiosity based on a snapshot interaction). They all come with et alii of course - who might be the better points of contact. Well and of course Dunbar himself is also still alive and kicking (also in the digital space). My hypothesis is that digital social networks are tools for specific ends. These are generally different between to network operators and the network clients. Aligning them (where you want this) will require a close look at incentives, rights, and funding. Transparency is IMO a very critical issue. Second, clients have different goal sets in different circumstances. There are different levels of granularity you can break these down to (and also they aren't likely very rational). As a first stab starting from the bottom up I would say that I want to have my tool perform 3 primary functions for me (when I focus on the issue driven networks, which most of the time take the lead for me personally): 1. Exploration (find out more about my environment and anon2696444391 I can manipulate it to my ends) 2. Monitoring (optimize for cost/benefit of attention, i.e. I don't want to miss important but rapid developments in my environment, nor do I want to miss tecanon2863106368ic shifts - both of this with a optimal signal to noise ratio) 3. Getting shit done (the interface needs to support curation, 3rd party curation, curation of the curation. It needs to strike the right balance of staying abreast of work amplification technologies for cognitive, possibly manual, and particularly communication type work - from Gutenberg over PGP, to audio, video conf, dropbox, to onshape CAD, to snapchat, etc.). Simple, I know. Also: Bravo for your effort!" 20,55493,2019-06-20T13:31:57.652Z,10017,1,29,28,3,1,0,40.8,54153,anon1753543892,anon1608948641,"[quote=""anon1608948641, post:7, topic:10017""] UX can make or break anon2696444391 people interact with each other as a community, and especially with open source projects, it is often enough added as an afterthought. [/quote] This is a very good point @anon1608948641! How are you currently going about developing such a UX? And anon2696444391 would you feel about trying to use collective intelligence as edgeryder is providing to work on it? Maybe you could share some examples and ideas to discuss and ask others here concretely to do the same, or, what I think could be even more interesting you could formulate a call for intuitive social UX proposals or a workshop. I am happy to help if you want. We could start with a post with some concrete questions based on what you already found out and maybe a short story for flavour and some examples. People could contribute examples and proposals, (there are certainly anon2373157426 a few community members with interesting research and ideas in that direction) and we could bring it all together in a webinar or community call in which we intentionally steer into the direction of a workshop atmosphere, and if there is a lot of interest, maybe we can even pop it up to a real world event at some point. How do you feel about this?" 21,55494,2019-06-20T13:36:54.672Z,10017,0,26,25,1,1,0,25.2,55493,anon1608948641,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:20, topic:10017""] Maybe you could share some examples and ideas to discuss and ask others here concretely to do the same, or, what I think could be even more interesting you could formulate a call for intuitive social UX proposals or a workshop. [/quote] I absolutely CAN share something. This for example is our current approach for the ""create new user account"" flow: http://darcy.is/login-demo/ _(this is a non-functional mockup - you can click some butanon2863106368s, but none of the information entered will be stored anywhere)_ Another demopage would be https://darcy.is/demo/. This sanon2696444391s the general layout of the main page. Again, non-functional and not anon2373157426 finished yet :)." 22,55497,2019-06-20T14:08:58.971Z,10017,1,28,27,1,1,0,15.6,55420,anon2489867874,anon1608948641,"[quote=""anon1608948641, post:18, topic:10017""] At the community call yesterday, I’ve been asked about anon2696444391 Darcy would monetize the moderation. This is a service that instance owners can subscribe to. They’d be billed a monthly fee based on anon2696444391 many users they have. As a result, Darcy moderators would react to reports coming from this instance. [/quote] Interesting enough, this is the complete opposite of some of the first subject moderation instances that was fully monetized - i.e. that of the AOL Chat Rooms in the early 1990's. We had a friend who was 14 years old and he was mod of the ""teen forum"" - he made 30K per year from doing so! AOL actually paid for him to come down to the VA. HQ for a sit down with other mods and admins. Of course, that ended soon enough when AOL couldn't charge 10 cents a minute for access to their digital world. In our case (our forums), the mods were all volunteers but since we made some $$ from ads and sponsorships I paid them in later years with stipends and bonuses. I think one main point is that a model has to be built on something which is already proven somewhere (human interaction has not really changed). What people will pay for is likely the same as always, as well as what they will not. Also, anon2696444391 they will act if they pay for something (ownership) comes into play, as do regional and national differences. I have to also agree with most of what anon1758400449 says about the different goals of users vs. mods- or, in fact, the differing goals of each user. Although most mods start out as users they usually rise above the fray based on merit, not on pay. One can only imagine if FB allowed people to pay $10 a month to start a ""more special group""....that many of those people would feel they were Kings and Queens of their anon2488317424 domain. As it stands many seem to feel this way just because they started a ""page"". This is, in fact, one of the largest problems of Social Media...that of thinking they are special because they have a page or the like. Ah, Human Nature. I wish I had all the answers - but perhaps Social Media is more like Movies and Documentaries where the ""moderators"" can be, in a sense, the creators (curators) and therefore rewarded (paid) as opposed to the opposite. It's not so different....the users pay for their streaming services (internet service, netflix, etc.) and the money funnels up to the content creators and curators. This would be near impossible but a tiny tax on internet service which could be used for certain types of social media (akin to community TV and Radio which they already DO fund) would be ideal. But in todays world....that is a non-starter, IMHO, for many reasons. Definitely brainstorming here, but maybe $$ from the good ole billionaires who truly want to see a more just and civil world is part of the answer? They fund Public Radio and TV here in the USA and this could be, in a sense, sold as something similar. I don't see a lot of mention of Reddit here - and, yes, they have their problems, but there is some things they do right in terms of balance." 23,55504,2019-06-20T15:36:05.816Z,10017,1,27,26,1,0,0,15.4,55497,anon3203746736,anon2489867874,I think @anon1608948641's idea with this is the user(s) pay for moderation or not depending on whether and anon2696444391 much it is wanted. 24,55508,2019-06-20T15:57:33.620Z,10017,1,30,29,1,0,0,16.0,55504,anon1608948641,anon3203746736,"actually - it's the server admins who pay for the moderation, not the users. And the fee is calculated by anon2696444391 many active users are on the instance, not anon2696444391 much work they generate. So: Bob runs a server. They invite 20 of their friends to it, and everything is peachy. When these 20 get into an argument, or Alice posts an inappropriate picture, Bob is on it. With 20 users, it's easy to do in ones free time. Now, those friends are so excited about this, that they in term each invite 20 more users. So suddenly Bob has 400 users on his server, and a month later, it's 2000. Handling the moderation needs for 2000 users is too much work for Bob. So Bob turns to Darcy and pays a monthly fee to have their instance moderated. Bob can either pay this fee on their own (maybe they are a feeling generous, or have the extra income), or they can collect donations from the users. (Darcy will offer easy interfaces to Patreon or PayPal for this) Maybe they hit up the local hardware store to get a static ""this instance is supported by DIY Haven!"" banner somewhere. _(Bob might be tempted to add in automated banner advertising or worse. But that would get them into trouble with the Darcy moderation team terms of service, and the instance won't be eligible for moderation anymore.)_ We at Darcy strongly believe in paying the moderators, and paying them well. This is serious work, that needs serious training and also serious support. We've all read the reports out of Cognizant and similar outfits. Don't be like that!" 25,55512,2019-06-20T16:06:41.287Z,10017,0,29,28,1,0,0,10.8,55508,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,"Thanks for clarifying. Ands yes, moderators are chronically underpaid, though if they are doing moderation for profitable businesses they tend to do better. And a lot of moderating is part-time work, with not a great hourly rate, so it attracts stay-at-home mothers, people still living with their parents and others who don't or can't work full time. Many of these folks are very good at the work. Many are not." 26,56140,2019-07-04T09:19:59.279Z,10017,1,27,26,1,0,0,15.4,54081,anon2825022506,anon1608948641,"Hey @anon1608948641, nice to read you. This is an interesting project you're pushing here. I was reading about the federation abilities of Darcy, and the comparison with other federated platforms such as Mastodon. Will Darcy be a part of the Fediverse and able to federate with Pixelfed, Mastodon, etc, based on AcrivityPub? Second question, did you reach out SwitchingSocial? They're doing a good job at referencing all social networks options :)" 27,56142,2019-07-04T09:43:23.703Z,10017,1,26,25,1,1,0,30.2,56140,anon1608948641,anon2825022506,"[quote=""anon2825022506, post:26, topic:10017""] Will Darcy be a part of the Fediverse and able to federate with Pixelfed, Mastodon, etc, based on AcrivityPub? [/quote] right now, we are aiming to use ActivityPub, so Darcy instances will be able to federate with all instances that use the same protocol. There is one caveat though: In order to keep the safety promise, federation might be cut with instances that don't manage to self-moderate with the same (transparent and not too onerous) standards. This is especially important for instances that are aimed at minors for example. As soon as we are actually live, we will for sure reach out to SwitchingSocial, but it's too early for that right now." 28,56183,2019-07-04T18:11:57.596Z,10017,1,24,23,1,0,0,14.8,56142,anon2825022506,anon1608948641,"Well, I guess it's only the choice of moderators isn't it? I mean, are you creating a tool, or a space?" 29,56218,2019-07-05T10:26:06.338Z,10017,0,25,24,1,0,0,25.0,56183,anon1608948641,anon2825022506,"both - we provide the tool, but we will also use the tool ourselves to create a space with it." 30,56839,2019-07-17T21:51:03.538Z,10017,3,27,26,2,0,0,75.4,54081,anon2776725796,anon1608948641,"I just signed up to the platform. Honestly, I am surprised by all the potential that is concentrated here. And I have to say this platform is well hidden. Anyway, @anon1608948641 I love your idea. I didn't follow most of the thread, but I am very very impressed by your initiative. I hope it will be far well into the future. Is it already in some testing phase?" 31,56843,2019-07-18T06:30:51.766Z,10017,0,27,26,1,0,0,25.4,56839,anon1608948641,anon2776725796,"we're still developing, and are also looking for proper financing - doing things right requires a bit more than just gumption and good intentions :)" 32,57161,2019-07-25T19:47:01.676Z,10017,0,26,25,1,1,0,25.2,56839,anon3379761435,anon2776725796,"@anon2776725796 welcome! [quote=""anon2776725796, post:30, topic:10017""] Honestly, I am surprised by all the potential that is concentrated here. And I have to say this platform is well hidden [/quote] Thanks... and yes, we are not very good at communicating what we do. The good thing is, Edgeryders is not based on selling eyeballs, so being bad at self-promotion does not kill us – though it's still bad." 33,57480,2019-08-02T12:04:22.568Z,10017,0,25,24,5,0,0,60.0,56839,anon1753543892,anon2776725796,"Hello @anon2776725796! Great to have you here! you already make some very good points about the communication, maybe you could help by adding your thoughts about anon2696444391 you found us, perceive the platform and what motivates you here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/why-to-edgeryder/10385 If you are interested in @anon1608948641 projects check out his glossary https://anon1577251828.eu/t/managing-communications-an-attempted-glossary/10391 and/or come to the community call he is featured in on Tuesday the 6th: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-call-6th-of-august-moderation-mediation-versus-censorship-anon2863106368e-policing-keeping-people-safe-from-all-kinds/10414 Looking forward to seeing you there! Otherwise, we are very curious to learn more about you and what you are up to in general. Maybe you could write a anon2488317424 bit about the projects and questions you are involved with in our ""My Story"" section :slight_smile:" 34,57726,2019-08-07T14:05:02.905Z,10017,2,22,21,2,0,0,39.4,54081,anon3903859261,anon1608948641,"It's nice and noble what he is building, but there are too many flaws in his system which I pointed out. Like anon2696444391 can you make the distinction between good and bad if every human being has another perception of these values?" 35,57727,2019-08-07T14:06:17.429Z,10017,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,57726,anon850704935,anon3903859261,Thoughts @anon1608948641? :-) 36,57728,2019-08-07T14:45:25.291Z,10017,0,19,18,1,1,0,23.8,57726,anon1608948641,anon3903859261,"[quote=""anon3903859261, post:34, topic:10017""] Like anon2696444391 can you make the distinction between good and bad if every human being has another perception of these values? [/quote] The baseline that is enforced on the top-down level is actually simple: The law. On the top-down level, that is the standard that is enforced. On the bottom-up level, every community and local group can define their own standards, as long as they don't violate the law. And end users will be empowered to curate their own experience, tailored to their needs and values. Yes, I acknowledge that there are variants in global law - what is allowed in Germany might not be allowed in China and vice versa. But there are baselines that are universally acknowledged. Right now, we focus on what is accepted and baseline in Europe and will worry about China later..." 37,57793,2019-08-09T09:20:50.587Z,10017,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,54081,anon3086952555,anon1608948641,"Thanks for sharing this! Just for my understanding, anon2696444391 do you approach anon2696444391 visible conversations are? Tom Coates [once summed up](https://twitter.com/tomcoates/status/1146485672116539392) some mechanics I found interesting like this: ""(...) it’s about the fundamental mechanics of the protocol and then a lot is just based on putting the filtering and abuse prevention in the clients.(...) For example, if you can’t see people more than two steps from you, then the incentive for them to be unpleasant or harassing diminishes a lot, and if there’s an assymetry between the two sides too, that can help. It depends on the physics basically, anon2696444391 far can your voice carry"" I found this metaphor pretty helpful to think about these things. What's your approach?" 38,57929,2019-08-13T14:16:24.301Z,10017,0,17,16,1,0,0,38.4,57793,anon1608948641,anon3086952555,"yes, that works - up to a point. Because sometimes people actively want to get into a conversation with people that are completely unknown to them, but only connected through a shared interest in something. Think striking up a conversation with a stranger in a bar, or while standing in queue somewhere. This board for example: The only connection I have to basically everyone here, is that they are here too. Thankfully, all'y'all are nice people, but what would my options be if you weren't? I'd probably have to count on the hosts here to make things friendly. Generally, we need to recognize that there are different scopes of communication, different spaces with different needs and constraints. As soon as an internet space is open in the sense of ""everyone can register and participate"", you are essentially dealing with the potential global public. All it needs is a well-worded link in a high-traffic place directing new people to any given space to fill it up with a new audience - which might be friendly or hostile, come with its own agenda, might have an interest and understanding of the place, or just wants to complain... Any new social platform should keep this possibility in mind." 39,57941,2019-08-13T21:42:04.973Z,10017,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,54081,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,"Further evidence of brokenness: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-13/facebook-paid-hundreds-of-contractors-to-transcribe-users-audio" 40,57945,2019-08-14T07:35:00.599Z,10017,1,19,18,1,0,0,13.8,57941,anon1608948641,anon3203746736,"I am actually a bit angry over anon2696444391 these things are reported. If there is any online, server based voice recognition service at the scale of millions of end users, _of course_ there are going to be humans who check on samples to see if the product works as intended. And _of course_ the bit that says so is hidden in the ToS somewhere, because if you put it front and center, no one is going to use it. Also: Yes, it feels creepy, but in the end, the actual consequences of this privacy invasion are close to zero - the people who hear the recordings usually aren't in a position to do anything with them. That said: Yes, the big tech companies could have handled this better. Don't allow remote work for this stuff for example, better communication and so on. But **_what the reporting should always do_** is to tell people that checking these recordings is more or less mandatory to make the service better or even possible in the first place, and that people should know that whenever something translates voice to text in an online device, there should be the expectation that someone will eventually listen in to more or less anonymized tidbits of your voice." 41,57960,2019-08-14T15:33:55.496Z,10017,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,57945,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,"Good point. Journalists often look for 'blood in the water' and if they can't find much, then maybe ratchet things up a bit to increase the controversy. And FB has to operate at a scale beyond what many of us can probably even imagine. So naturally whatever they do, good or bad, is going to look big to anyone who looks. And Amazon does the same thing with Alexa. But there is a bit of a story here though for the reason you point out: they don't disclose. The ""break things"" ethos unfortunately allows a lot of room to justify unethical behavior. And this is exactly why they get so much scrutiny. The company leadership misrepresents what they do, even, in the case of Zuckerberg testifying to Congress, while under oath. Those sharks will never leave his tail after that." 42,57964,2019-08-14T15:46:34.557Z,10017,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,57960,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Facebook got fined 5 billion dollars by the US Govt last month. The EU is about to announce its findings on FB's alleged violations of the GDPR regarding sharing WhatsApp data with FB without user consent.. These are huge fines, but they seem to not make a real difference. Europe needs a bigger strategy than leveling big fines. It seems like only a migration of people somewhere else will cause them to change. i imagine that most FB users are not that concerned about it actually." 43,57975,2019-08-14T20:49:13.733Z,10017,1,13,12,1,1,0,27.6,57964,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:42, topic:10017""] Europe needs a bigger strategy than leveling big fines. It seems like only a migration of people somewhere else will cause them to change [/quote] I dream of antitrust policy based on access to market: ""if you don't break your company up, we will no longer allow you to operate on our 500 million rich people market"". The EU is almost there, with pretty strong decisions imposed on non-European companies by commissioners like Monti and Vestager." 44,57978,2019-08-15T01:01:35.515Z,10017,2,13,12,1,0,0,32.6,57975,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,I do think denying access to market is the only way to enforce monopolistic behavior. But does breaking up big tech companies solve the problem? So for example you would break Instagram and WhatsApp away from Facebook? 45,58038,2019-08-16T08:59:41.195Z,10017,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,54081,anon3645153774,anon1608948641,"Hi it's been several months I didn't come here. I'm really enthusiast about your project, great efforts, anon2696444391ever as it was probably mentioned before, why not join an existing solution like Fediverse/Mastodon, because when you reinvent the roll, you do it on your own, and you add to the hundreds and thousands of anon2488317424 projects that exists and that lack of users. Olivier" 46,58039,2019-08-16T09:09:13.104Z,10017,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,58038,anon1608948641,anon3645153774,"We actually plan to build on ActivityPub, to join the Fediverse. And Darcy will be open source, to give back to everyone else too. We will anon2696444391ever expand things a bit, to include better moderation interfaces, combining the moderation of several instances, sharing of blocklists between instances, and so on." 47,58040,2019-08-16T09:12:13.703Z,10017,0,17,16,1,1,0,8.4,57978,anon1608948641,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:44, topic:10017""] But does breaking up big tech companies solve the problem? [/quote] I don't think so. The problem isn't that this is all owned by Facebook these days, but that the underlying business model is ""grow big, get sold, earn money through ads""." 48,58060,2019-08-16T15:09:04.801Z,10017,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,57978,anon850704935,anon3203746736,"Issue is that not only Facebook, Instagram, Whatsapp et al are responsible for violating consent, issue is often the ad-tech ecosystem which is compromised from companies that most people never heard from such as Appnexus, IndexExchange and others that have loads of data obtained from users and its almost impossible to get to them." 49,58064,2019-08-16T15:33:21.389Z,10017,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,58060,anon3203746736,anon850704935," In the United States monopoly has for the past many decades been defined as being a monopolistic practice only if it raises prices on consumers. That is not the problem that we’re looking at here and at least in this country there is no policy at this point for dealing with the data issue. The public itself, and thus the legislators they elect, so far do not view a person’s personal data as being a commodity that has assignable value. So it is all regarded as a free service. After seeing what a lousy job the senators did in questioning Zuckerberg at his hearings not long ago I’m not real confident that some of those old guys are going to understand it well enough to write workable law.Add to that truly massive lobbying campaigns by big tech and I really don’t expect any movement on this side of the Atlantic." 50,58068,2019-08-16T15:43:43.452Z,10017,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,58064,anon850704935,anon3203746736,"Yeah, I was just connecting the issue of data handling from Facebook and big tech with companies that store that data (and most of people never heard of them, but they have loads of data on people). For the zuck hearing, yeah, if they will create a law based on their questions, it will be anon2373157426 bad. For lobbying, well, in EU Parliament that was also (and still is) a big issue with GDPR which was watered down by influences from big tech (and if you ask me, big tech wins big with GDPR in place). I'm not sure anon2696444391 can we make an advertising ecosystem that gives people what they want, but treats data with confidentiality and use it only in purposes that the consumer who gave them that data allowed them to use it. I re-discovered one great technologist (listened to her long time ago, forgot, randomly discovered on youtube again), Aleks Krotoski, that has a podcast sanon2696444391 on the BBC on these topics and has a interesting video on web privacy. I'll link it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGX-c5BJNFk&t=1362s" 51,58074,2019-08-16T16:13:04.335Z,10017,0,15,14,1,0,0,38.0,58068,anon3203746736,anon850704935,"Right now I’m reading “Chaos Monkeys” by Ananon2863106368io Martinez. It’s a pretty fascinating Silicon Valley tale with a lot of focus on his time at Facebook a few years ago. He points out that FB didn’t start raking in the truly huge money until they started following people around the web to figure out their real interests. Just confining it to likes friends groups and all the “inside Facebook” activity didn’t produce the kind of targeting that brought the higher ad rates. This came about around 2011-12, a few years after Google blazed the surveillance trail that is now the norm." 52,58170,2019-08-20T12:10:18.292Z,10017,1,15,14,7,0,0,58.0,54081,anon2489867874,anon1608948641,"At one time it was somewhat of a silly complaint about advertising on the web - since the ad-supported model was what the market (people) desired. However, as with most things, this went way too far...some ""news"" pages now actually have 100's of ads on them (CNN, for example). Hundreds! The targeting worked better when it was done in a subtle or general fashion. Now, it's so blatantly obvious and hides the good stuff...that it would seem to lose some of the effect (perhaps I am looking a bit in to the future here). I can almost start to say that the web was more useful in 1998 than it is today...when google results are now page after page of ""content farms"" or ""SEO"" stuff designed to have the sizzle (results that look good in a list) but no steak once you get to the site. One would think a smart company like Google would see this - and perhaps they do, but they have pressure to keep the bucks flowing. I should mention that I attended in-person google seminars when I was a publisher and they sanon2696444391ed us ""heat maps"" of pages, which is where we should put ads. But, even then, I think google TOS allowed no more than two or three ads per page. Just thinking out loud here - but billboards are allowed on highways...anon2696444391ever, if advertisers put one every 50 meters and they were all moving and colorful to grab your attention, laws and regulation would be passed or the industry asked to regulate itself so that the purpose of the highway remained sound. This may be part of the solution in some places - make the internet ""the highway"" and tell publishers over a certain size that they have to choose....X amounts of ads per page or % of page with ads, etc. But ads are not the only problem - it's the fight for eyeballs which has resulted in so many entire web sites being created for nothing except drawing people in. That part is up to the search engines. It may just happen that duck duck or another SE gets there first - and there is nothing to say that people will not gravitate to the ad-free or limited ad (or limited ""content farm"" results) search engine. Anyway, that part is not exactly Social Media related but it is thoughts on the fact that the Internet IS broken and fixes are needed. It would be truly amazing to see anon2696444391 google reacts if, for example, 10% of search queries started going to duck duck or a similar service." 53,58405,2019-08-26T15:56:58.232Z,10017,1,15,14,1,0,0,43.0,58170,anon3203746736,anon2489867874,"To me it is pretty sad that the Internet is so massively consumed by the dictates of market place and markets, but I suppose it was inevitable. It’s a real trade off with the Internet of old and the Internet of today. Back in those days I hungered for the better graphics and audio and throughput that I knew was coming. But back then there was a kind of maybe tacit understanding or agreement that the commercialization of everything should not be such a runaway train. Maybe that was just left over from the days not too many years before when you couldn’t do anything commercial on the Internet and you had to sign pledges on paper certifying that you would be non-commercial. But I also remember when I worked for a big media company that the notion of that kind of restraint to the advertising-heavy establishment that employed me, seemed kind of absurd because why would you restrain yourself from going after the most money you can make?" 54,58421,2019-08-26T22:03:01.172Z,10017,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,58405,anon2489867874,anon3203746736,"I wonder if we even anticipated the current net - when 95% plus of users are ""takers"" and only a very few are makers. This really came into focus with devices and social media because obviously people were not going to write massive amounts of content on Phones or even early tablets. So that sorta broke it into two parts - whereas at first I think we envisioned more of all being creators and consumers. The ""here today gone tomorrow"" fad is also interesting as it speaks against most of the real excitement we felt in terms of forever knowledge. Now it's a quick jolt of attention and that goes away quickly also. I still get excited on forums where I see my long term rep going up due to actual usefulness of my posts or opinions. What we need is a new Moses coming down from the Mountain with the shore and sweet of the Internet guidelines!" 55,58436,2019-08-27T07:43:08.649Z,10017,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,58421,anon1753543892,anon2489867874,"The metaphor you choose with Moses might illustrate rather well anon2696444391 disputed such a strict top-down approach would be and anon2696444391 it could lead to conflicts around the nature, origin and believability of such guidelines." 56,58887,2019-09-07T00:23:16.839Z,10017,1,15,14,1,0,0,43.0,58436,anon2489867874,anon1753543892,"Well, that's understandable - but it also reflects on anon2696444391 having proper food labeling and caloric content in eateries and other such information can help people know what is best for their own health and the health of society in general. I have run into many real world situations where people don't know the basics (even the Golden Rule) - but when I consider telling them the score I realize that if they don't know by now I'm certainly not going to be able to clue them in! My experience as admin of a large forum for 18 years was that Leadership (admin and mods and top helpers and posters) set those rules and 98% or more of the users followed along once they realized it was all good (no negatives involved). Attention is a funny thing. Many people cannot discern negative attention from positive and from most everything in-between. When billions are online reacting to this....well, it causes the problems we see today. IMHO. A ""moses"" in this case is a metaphor for a new take on the Golden Rule." 57,59260,2019-09-13T19:18:18.923Z,10017,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,58887,anon3203746736,anon2489867874,I have no faith that social media companies that make most of their money tracking you and subtly funneling you into where they want you to go in order to maximize revenue are ever going to allow enough user control to “un break” it. 58,59261,2019-09-13T19:31:31.325Z,10017,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,59260,anon3203746736,anon3203746736, Social networks are a lot more socially random than the societies that form around specialty sites like yours or this site here. So I think rules of civility can be applied in the very broadest sense in a social network but otherwise I think one size just does not fit all and administrators are going to be playing defense endlessly. This is why I think it is necessary to have good user controls in social media for it to work in ways that we here think it should work. (Assuming we are more or less aligned.) 59,60045,2019-09-27T16:42:31.677Z,10017,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,54081,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,"This comprehensive study lays out the state of things today: Samantha Bradshaw & Philip N. Howard, “The Global Disinformation Order: 2019 Global Inventory of Organised Social Media Manipulation.” Working Paper 2019.3. Oxford, UK: Project on Computational Propaganda. comprop.oii.ox.ac.uk. 23 pp. From the intro, ""Cyber troops’ are defined as government or political party actors tasked with manipulating public opinion online (Bradshaw and Howard 2017a). We comparatively examine the formal organization of cyber troops around the world, and anon2696444391 these actors use computational propaganda for political purposes. This involves building an inventory of the evolving strategies, tools, and techniques of computational propaganda, including the use of ‘political bots’ to amplify hate speech or other forms of manipulated content, the illegal harvesting of data or micro-targeting, or deploying an army of ‘trolls’ to bully or harass political dissidents or journalists online. We also track the capacity and resources invested into developing these techniques to build a picture of cyber troop capabilities around the world."" https://comprop.oii.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/93/2019/09/CyberTroop-Report19.pdf" 60,60046,2019-09-27T16:43:02.974Z,10017,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,60045,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"The summary: Over the past three years, we have monitored the global organization of social media manipulation by governments and political parties. Our 2019 report analyses the trends of computational propaganda and the evolving tools, capacities, strategies, and resources. 1. Evidence of organized social media manipulation campaigns which have taken place in 70 countries, up from 48 countries in 2018 and 28 countries in 2017. In each country, there is at least one political party or government agency using social media to shape public attitudes domestically. 2. Social media has become co-opted by many authoritarian regimes. In 26 countries, computational propaganda is being used as a tool of information control in three distinct ways: to suppress fundamental human rights, discredit political opponents, and drown out dissenting opinions. 3. A handful of sophisticated state actors use computational propaganda for foreign influence operations. Facebook and Twitter attributed foreign influence operations to seven countries (China, India, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela) who have used these platforms to influence global audiences. 4. China has become a major player in the global disinformation order. Until the 2019 protests in Hong Kong, most evidence of Chinese computational propaganda occurred on domestic platforms such as Weibo, WeChat, and QQ. But China’s new-found interest in aggressively using Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube should raise concerns for democracies 5. Despite there being more social networking platforms than ever, Facebook remains the platform of choice for social media manipulation. In 56 countries, we found evidence of formally organized computational propaganda campaigns on Facebook." 61,77223,2020-05-22T09:14:53.706Z,10017,0,11,10,2,0,0,12.2,54081,anon1753543892,anon1608948641,"Hello @anon1608948641, anon2696444391 are you now? I was wondering where you are with darcy now, especially in context with the current situation of the Covid19 crisis. During social distancing, social media becomes an even more central part of people live and potentially a real lifeline. To look into anon2696444391 to make it a save space in that situation is even more pressing. And while a lot of conspiracy theories and new attacks like ""zoom-bombing"" are rising, there are also interesting trends towards a more social internet: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/is-the-communitarian-internet-back-in-the-wake-of-covid-19-a-conversation-with-anon2696444391ard-rheingold/12971" 62,81745,2020-08-13T16:30:17.247Z,10017,3,12,11,1,0,0,52.4,54081,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,"Yesterday on Facebook I posted a photo of the house my grandmother grew up in, which is in the state of Idaho in the USA. Someone else then posted a photo of his house on the California beach sanon2696444391ing the ocean waves. He made some comment about it and I said “no surfing in Idaho.” because there is no ocean there. For that FB suspended my account claiming that my comment was harassment and bullying. Of course it was nothing like that, but people seem to not be making those decisions - bots do. Ok, we all know that. What bothers me is what came after. They told me I was suspended and they let me walk through a process where I could dispute it. At the end of that they just noted that I disagreed with their decision, without indicating that anyone or anything on the other side even looks at it. Then I picked my way to a form where I could describe the situation, with the idea that someone would actually read it and perhaps override the bot. Except that when I got through they said that function was not working and to try again later. Which I did for hours until I went to bed. So I reported that as a bug since their support structure was not working. A few hours later my ban was lifted without explanation. So does that mean someone saw my argument and reversed the decision? I have no way of knowing because they have not communicated with me about that. I find this all anon2373157426 disturbing because millions of people have given over a big chunk of their daily lives to this platform that acts with impunity based on robotic decisions and makes no effort to communicate with the user, even though they constantly tell me “we care about you.” So this part of social media is for sure broken. And it is to me an example of the creeping influence of bots making human decisions. @anon3379761435 pointed out to me that Facebook is too large - 2 billion people can't be managed. And I agree, I think. Except they have billions of dollars and could afford to do a decent job if they really wanted to. Ultimately though, I believe the answer is to allow we the people to have more direct control over our own experience. Why can I not be my own content moderator? Why do I, nearly 70 years old and in this business for 34 years, need a censor, or need to be censored? They could provide a number of tools to help me improve my experience. But that it seems, would hinder their business model and it gives more control to me and less to Facebook. This they will never agree to unless forced. Which brings me to one more point. When power companies and phone companies first got started they were private companies that could do whatever they wished. But over time electricity and telephone service became so important to society that they could not be left to the whims of the companies and instead became publicly regulated utilities. I think this is where we are now with social media." 63,81747,2020-08-13T17:51:54.832Z,10017,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,81745,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"And it looks like Google has a variation of this kind of bot decision behavior making ridiculous errors: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200810/11335745081/why-are-there-currently-no-ads-techdirt-apparently-google-thinks-were-dangerous.shtml" 64,81751,2020-08-13T19:36:16.937Z,10017,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,81745,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,A friend a colleague who knows a lot about this sort of thing tells me it probably is not bots but humans making these decisions. That's even worse! 65,81779,2020-08-14T12:57:46.948Z,10017,2,11,10,1,1,0,32.2,81745,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:62, topic:10017""] . @anon3379761435 pointed out to me that Facebook is too large - 2 billion people can’t be managed. [/quote] That is not my argument, John. My argument is: you can not allow a platform with 2 billion people, because that is a monopoly, and monopolies trample on people if it benefits them, because there is no punishment for doing so." 66,81784,2020-08-14T13:39:26.826Z,10017,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,81779,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"Ah. Right. I agree. Also as many have pointed out, such as in the article above, community management does not work well at that scale." 67,82428,2020-08-27T17:20:13.673Z,10017,2,11,10,4,2,0,32.2,81779,anon794158989,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:65, topic:10017""] My argument is: you can not allow a platform with 2 billion people, because that is a monopoly, and monopolies trample on people if it benefits them, because there is no punishment for doing so. [/quote] @anon3379761435 - Do you believe this to be true of platforms in general? English Wikipedia is a platform of 40 million users. When taken with all Wikipedia entities, the platform essentially has a monopoly of encyclopedic knowledge worldwide. It is the defacto source of ""truth"" on the internet. So is this also too large? Or does the difference in governance and motivation make all the difference? I've been thinking lately about these open source communities, and anon2696444391 Wikipedia has demonstrably re-enforced real-world inequalities: [Open Open Source Communities](https://schmud.de/posts/2020-08-27-open-source-community.html). Whether it be 2 billion people (Facebook), 40 million people (English Wikipedia), or 4.5 million people (Wikidata): [quote=""anon3203746736, post:66, topic:10017""] community management does not work well at that scale. [/quote]" 68,82430,2020-08-27T19:09:22.482Z,10017,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,82428,anon1608948641,anon794158989,"> English Wikipedia is a platform of 40 million users. When taken with all Wikipedia entities, the platform essentially has a monopoly of encyclopedic knowledge worldwide. It is the defacto source of “truth” on the internet. > > So is this also too large? Or does the difference in governance and motivation make all the difference? I think Wikipedia is a rather interesting example - and not necessarily a purely positive one. But first - those 40 million is the number of total accounts. Actually [actively editing users are more around 126.000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedians), so significantly less. (And actually on par with Mastodon or Diaspora). Now, why is Wikipedia an interesting example? For one because of the discrepancy of who edits and who consumes it. There are [over 800 million different devices](https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/en.wikipedia.org) accessing it each month, but only126k editing and maintaining it. [Active Editors are actually about 40.000 only](https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/en.wikipedia.org/contributing/active-editors/normal|line|2-year|~total|monthly). Now, why is it that only a fraction of a percent are actually maintaining it? I suspect several reasons: * editing is hard and unrewarding * the existing community makes it hard for new people to join, putting up layers of bureaucracy (this is especially true for the German Wikipedia, but I've talked to a Wikipedian from Hong Kong and they confirmed the same issue) * Generally there is a discrepancy between consuming and maintaining The other interesting thing is that Wikipedia has, as you pointed out, effectively killed traditional encyclopedias. And I am not too sure anon2696444391 much of a good thing this is. It does self-govern itself anon2373157426 effectively in that it is stable. But it is also frighteningly good at resisting *any* kind of change. Which is good if you see it as ""protecting against outside influence"", but very bad if viewed as ""maintaining the status quo of those in power"". But regardless of that - I do not think that Wikipedia is a fitting example of ""this is large and still working"", because in terms of people actively working on it, it is not particularly large. In fact, it has obviously managed to _not_ grow over a certain active user threshold, and it does in fact not work as a large scale community." 69,82438,2020-08-28T09:57:31.742Z,10017,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,82430,anon794158989,anon1608948641,"When put in those terms, it reminds me of the Emacs community. A small group of powerful people are very resistant to change. It makes onboarding new users or contributors very difficult. But Emacs is just a tool. Wikipedia and Social Media platforms are places where information shapes people's perception of reality. Communities on these platforms have a different moral imperative. In the 2016 election, the total amount of Facebook Activity (likes, comments, shares, & posts) for Clinanon2863106368 was 410 million engagements. Trump has 960 million engagements. Who speaks on these platforms now has incredible consequences. There is something particularly discouraging about your (honest) depiction of Wikipedia's community. It's small enough to manage and purports to be open. And yet there have been no improvements on the byzantine tooling and top-line demographic problems in the last decade. I'm starting to come around to Darius Kazemi's idea of [human-scaled social media](https://logicmag.io/security/party-at-my-house-darius-kazemi-on-human-scaled-social-media/) as the only real approach. Which kind of looks like a federation of 1980s BBSes. It's easy to dismiss as retro and regressive, but they honor millennia of human socializing." 70,82444,2020-08-28T10:27:31.955Z,10017,1,11,10,1,1,0,27.2,82428,anon3379761435,anon794158989,"[quote=""anon794158989, post:67, topic:10017""] So is this also too large? Or does the difference in governance and motivation make all the difference? [/quote] I was trained as an industrial economist. We have a standard way of looking at this: yes, monopolies are always bad because they limit the freedom of the consumer/user to walk away and go find another supplier to his or her liking. *But* sometimes monopolistic provision is way more efficient than pluralistic provision. Classic example are aqueducts: having five competing networks delivering water to your tap would be very, very inefficient. Water provision is a natural monopoly. In those cases, monopolies can be tolerated, but must be locked down tight. The classic solutions are nationalization (takes away the profit motive, like you hint at in the case of Wikipedia) or regulation (profit motive stays, but there is a watchdog). Wikipedia seems to have found a third solution: openness. If you do not like what Wikipedia is providing, you can look for a different source, but you can also change Wikipedia itself. The problem is also mitigated by the fact that, to a first approximation, encyclopedias are not a natural monopoly. Indeed, there is Wikipedia, but there are also specialized sources like Investopedia for finance, etc. So, yes, motivation is a big factor, and openness a help. But also yes, monopolies are always bad, though sometimes a necessary evil." 71,82461,2020-08-28T14:42:28.435Z,10017,1,12,11,1,1,0,12.4,82438,anon1608948641,anon794158989,"[quote=""anon794158989, post:69, topic:10017""] I’m starting to come around to Darius Kazemi’s idea of [human-scaled social media](https://logicmag.io/security/party-at-my-house-darius-kazemi-on-human-scaled-social-media/) as the only real approach. Which kind of looks like a federation of 1980s BBSes. It’s easy to dismiss as retro and regressive, but they honor millennia of human socializing. [/quote] I call it the [Bedroom-to-Broadcast theory](https://darcy.is/the-bedroom-to-broadcast-scale-of-communication-spaces/) - we do well up to a certain scale, but lack the tools to properly navigate a landscape where you can start out a very private conversation that is suddenly getting the attention of millions of people.. And also do not really know anon2696444391 to have an open conversation with a few strangers but not open ourselves up to attacks by thousands. So, yes, scaling back to human scale is useful and important, but I think the allure of *potentially* speaking to thousands is a factor we should not ignore." 72,82474,2020-08-28T16:16:26.178Z,10017,1,12,11,1,1,0,27.4,82461,anon794158989,anon1608948641,"[quote=""anon1608948641, post:71, topic:10017""] the [Bedroom-to-Broadcast theory](https://darcy.is/the-bedroom-to-broadcast-scale-of-communication-spaces/) [/quote] Interesting. It takes the perspective of the individual user, I presume. When Grier and Campbell look at the history of [Bitnet in A Social History of Bitnet and Listserv, 1985-1991](https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1109/85.841135), it struck me that really looked at the health of group dynamics as an indicator for the usefulness and health of the network. The scholars seemed to ascribe special value to groups that endured longer and expanded wider than Bitnet itself. Groups are interesting because they can be managed and the provide an value beyond the ego-centric ""I broadcast because I ideally want everyone to hear what I say."" This differentiation was stark when [@anon Groups have all sorts of governance benefits, including this one from the Bitnet article: > “A friend,” wrote one Bitnet representative, “finds that a telephone call about annoying behavior works well. When I reflect back on the aforementioned efforts by Kazemi and the Hometown branch of Mastodon, I'm starting to think these federated instances are less like BBSes and more like groups. Sort of like Paul Ford's experiment, [Tilde Club](https://tilde.club/). I've been a member for some time. When Paul moved on, there was enough interest for others to update and change the group." 73,82475,2020-08-28T16:28:04.836Z,10017,0,12,11,1,1,0,7.4,82444,anon794158989,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:70, topic:10017""] yes, monopolies are always bad because they limit the freedom of the consumer/user to walk away and go find another supplier to his or her liking. *But* sometimes monopolistic provision is way more efficient than pluralistic provision. Classic example are aqueducts [/quote] Indeed. You also illustrate the reason that the United States Congress needs to write new antitrust laws. Because 1. As Google says, ""competition is just a click away."" And they're not wrong. 2. In a world of zero marginal costs and total abundance on both the supply side (essentially infinite bits) and the demand side (billions of potential customers), the current laws don't apply. I'm sure serious proposals for antitrust in networked societies exists. If anybody can point me in the direction, I would be grateful." 74,82725,2020-09-03T15:54:54.928Z,10017,0,12,11,2,0,0,12.4,82474,anon3203746736,anon794158989,"> necro-tweeting Great phrase. For those who don't know the story, Herman Cain had already died of Covid-19 when ""he"" started tweeting that the virus was not that deadly." 75,86080,2020-11-02T09:30:50.352Z,10017,0,7,6,1,0,0,36.4,54081,anon1608948641,anon1608948641,"As we creep closer to the next prototype release of Darcy, we want to validate a few of our assumptions for the project. To that end, it would be very kind and useful for us if some of you would take 5-10 minutes of your time to fill out our survey! https://forms.gle/J13KAUJKxZWN3wgq8" 76,89397,2021-01-05T18:43:20.662Z,10017,0,6,5,1,0,0,36.2,54081,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,"I just ran into this page with DIY instructions and rationale behind setting up small-scale open-source social networks such as ones he runs for his friends. https://runyourown.social/" 1,67889,2019-12-22T18:33:25.294Z,12250,1,18,17,19,0,0,150.6,67889,anon3747875924,anon3747875924,"**Between November 19 and 29, 2019, about 30 people worked together across the workshop series [Anticipate! Exploring Collective Intelligence Design](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anticipate-exploring-collective-intelligence-design/11021/35).** What follows is a brief report with some take-aways that maybe of particular interest for readers here at anon1577251828. Btw, I switch from I to we not because I speak on behalf of an imagined collective whose thoughts and actions I wish to definitively interpret, but because I am both I and we, drawing on so many encounters that I often can't really claim ideas are my own anymore. It comes with the terrain, I guess - collective intelligence is something we intuitively understand to be another word for intelligence in a wider sense (we are always already multiple, constituted in multiple encounters and situations). And maybe that is the best than can happen when new terms are introduced - they change the way we use those we already have. I co-organized the event with colleagues from xm:lab and K8 (many thanks to Julia Hartnik, Agnès Lotanon2863106368, Julia Pierzina, Aude Poilroux, Michael Schmitz as well as Andrea Barbiero and Uto Scheidt) and we received financial and organizational support from Edgeryders ([@anon1753543892](https://anon1577251828.eu/u/anon Via this post, I want to share some of our thoughts and impressions about the workshop series in Saarbruecken. Because almost all participants spoke German (and all events were conducted in German), I am afraid that it is somewhat unlikely that our local follow-up discussions (of which there are anon2373157426 a few, see below) will find their way to this platform. While event registration was set up on anon1577251828 for German-speaking participants, online registration was not often used, instead participants contacted the organizing team via email. For events in languages other than English, the logic of directing those interested mainly in the offline exchange to a platform whose content is mainly in English (and which requires registration, even if greatly simplified) may have to be reconsidered. This is something I would like to think about more as we explore the role of multi-lingual online platforms in local offline conversations that see only so much added benefit in creating such a dynamic. Perhaps this is even one of the meta-takeaways from this workshop series: the role of the local, of structured face-to-face encounters integrated into a local conversation cutting across local spaces is huge. And the role of online platforms less obvious than one might have expected. Here we go, questions and answers: **Tell us about yourself. What are you working on, and why were you at the event ‘Anticipate!’?** I co-organized this event with my local colleagues because the main issues - data sovereigny and data governance as well as the community architectures structuring and sustaining such collaborative explorations - are key concerns in our work, both in education and research as well as outreach and cooperation. Recently, we have come to conduct some of these debates in the context of [anticipate](http://www.anticipate.network), our “collective intelligence design research network”. I mention this specifically again because one of the concrete outcomes of the workshop series was a reworking of our [method statement](https://www.anticipate.network/what) ""principles of engagement"". We really like it, let us know what you make of it. **xm:lab** - Experimental Media Lab was set up at the Academy of Fine Arts Saar in 2012 to host cooperative degree programs (we started with Media Informatics and are now adding Data Science and Artificial Intelligence) and has since then become one of the key places on the boundaries of the academy (yes even small institutions - we have 500 students - have plenty of boundaries and need anon2863106368s of interfaces to operate - one reason why design for us also means institutional design). Via xm:lab we communicate and cooperate with almost every local tech research institute, from artificial intelligence and cybersecurity to visual computing, allowing us (both educators and students) to co-create a wide variety of arts-and-technology research projects. **K8** was added in 2015 to initiate and implement transfer, think tank, and training activities both within and beyond the academy’s boundaries. Recently, the role of cooperatives in organizing work and value have become a key concern, so we worked together prior to the festival with colleagues, for example, from [Salus Coop ](https://www.saluscoop.org) (mainly Andrea Barbiero) to put workshop materials together, and also reached out to some of our research colleagues to get involved in co-creating the kind of really-low-threshold formats that are surprisingly rare in our own day-to-day academic work. **What was the key question you came to the event with?** More like a set of questions: What happens when we take themes that are still novel but no longer unique - data sovereignty, data governance, the role of decentralized technologies and community architectures in supporting self-determined data practices - and explore them through the lense of collective intelligence design? **What did you expect to learn from this event?** We knew that the different workshops would attract different audiences but were hoping to see some cross-workshop conversation regardless. That didn't really happen to the extent we had hoped. Beyond that - we also knew that some workshop participants were already involved in data-related debates and assumed they would want to develop very concrete ideas for follow-up activities. **Did you learn what you expected? Have you heard something new? Something that you liked? disliked?** Such insights can rarely be attributed to a single moment, but the workshops affirmed our sense of the need to address these in particular: **Low-Threshold-Formats**: We need more of those, and the workshops reminded us of anon2696444391 difficult it is to create conversations for people who bring concerns and interests but have anon2488317424 patience for the kind of academic exchanges that may or may not operate well within the boundaries and logics of academia but certainly don’t easily open up to create welcoming atmospheres for first-timers. All workshops went really well, but they only did so because of the intense work of cultural translation everyone was willing to engage in. A reminder to take the work of relation into account whatever we do. **Cultural Translators**: When the local newspaper mentioned the workshop series (yeah) but concluded that its themes were probably originating in a “parallel world”, we had both fun and some soul-searching exhanges regarding our own sense of urgency - if the technologies we want to address and reflect upon play as large a role in reorganizing life and labor as we think they do, anon2696444391 come there is so anon2488317424 debate of (and willingness to engage with) these issues in local media (which play a huge role in local debates)? Many professional networks (take LinkedIn) amplify the connectivity of those already connected, but do anon2488317424 to bring new people into the loop. So instead of looking for the over-network where our visions of collective agency may or may not materialize, more cultural translators (a term adopted from [Boris Buden](http://eipcp.net/transversal/0606/buden/en.html)) that wander between the different milieus - of art, research, technology design, work, politics - are needed. This is in part anon2696444391 we understand our own work in events like these, and we hope that future workshops will take this on board, acting as spaces to experiment with this kind of meta-literacy that helps bring people together in more than a temporary feel-good way. **New Imaginaries**: One colleague presented current work on databases that quickly connected quantum technology imaginaries to the nuts-and-bolts questions that have to be addressed in any database design. It was a reminder that what used to be science fiction tech also offers a way of creating “thinking machines”, machines not to speed up whatever it is we want to organize but to allow us to think differently. We know that sci-fi has been an ongoing egderyders [concern](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/earthos/sci-fi-economics) - and as a student of literature I had always secretly hoped that a great deal of this complicated tech research stuff would come down to imagination and language issues. It does. Until, of course, it doesn’t. And yes we still have to talk about protocols, stacks, and all the rest. **What was the key takeaway from the day?** Our own enthusiasm regarding collective intelligence design does inspire occasionally but should not get in the way of getting good work done with the languages people have already available - whatever they are. There are many reasons for that - loss of experience, for example, if a story doesn't survive the retelling in a new (foreign) language (conceptual idiom, method framework, whatever). That might in fact be a dilemma of using framing narratives more generally - they facilitate sharing and yet establish a story of reference we are expected to address someanon2696444391. We do not have an answer for this yet, but then that is probably why it is a dilemma. To our great (and not entirely surprising) relief - no matter anon2696444391 busy with their lives and labor, people want to work together, especially if the cooperation relates to their actual work and value-creating activities. Participants from the data coops workshop - which included medical and database researchers as well as entrepreneurs - are now co-developing a series of health-data-related proposals, and we are in the process of initiating a regional [mydata](https://mydata.org) hub. Co-organizers from the data sovereignty workshop will be involved in an open data [hackathon](http://www.codingdavinci.de) we are organizing in 2020. And the community architectures workshop resulted in concrete cross-border cooperations between K8 and [Bliiida](http://www.bliiida.fr). What we learned from that (also see below): If an event is designed to contribute to an overarching process great things can happen. When it is approached as an isolated one-off, this is much more difficult. (Not exactly a new insight, but we do wonder whether the logic of ""the event"" has something to do with that.) **What would you like to learn more in depth at the next event?** And here we go - we are not sure events are the right category for in-depth anything. As much as I like the term (and I really like it; not only because organizing such encounters can be great work, but because in some if the humanities contexts I end up in, the German word “Ereignis” conjures up a fair amount of philosophical controversy - and when you use it it seems that just saying it can make something happen...), process has taken over. I don’t think I really want to think in terms of events anymore. Instead: what exactly is the process we are setting up, and then, what role can various elements (workshops and festivals and conferences can of course be a part of that) play? Processes are much more than a concatenation of events. What exactly that means, what processes demand from us - key question, definitely part of whatever conversation we are having prior to the next event :) **What do I see as the single largest challenge for cooperation at scale?** Cooperation is happening a huge scales already - at scales that were unthinkable only a few generations (years !) ago. The workshop participants from SMEs are already operating in vast value chains, researchers are used to working with and across global scientific communities, activists (we have been looking at those interested in cooperative ethos and experiment) in networks so wide that it is nearly impossible to exhaust their scope. Working with actors embedded in multiple networks all over the place, I am not convinced cooperation is the main thing to focus on right now. I am more interested in questions of affect and identity. I read, I see - for me language makes worlds. For many people it does not, and few of the languages we use in politics an society really seem to say what people feel. Of course this is what poetry is all about - keep creating new words so the new can continue to appear - but I would have never expected to be confronted with this in terms of the future of democracy. But if the workshops did one thing in relationship to such broadern concerns (and these broader concerns about the future of democratic encounter and the power of co-creating the world around us are why we do such events in the first place) they were a reminder that often the way we relate to technology has nothing to do with language or knowledge and everything with much fuzzier things like feelings and a sense of self. This is not exactly an easy terrain for people like myself, trained to believe that whatever “anxieties” exist will eventually translate into an interest in co-creating new systems. So: If cooperation is an issue, in this context it is as an issue of translation. In the widest-possible sense. **What single thing would you want to see that supports you to cooperate/collaborate more with others?** One of the concrete outcomes of workshop-related conversations is [joint work](https://www.h3-o.de/rethink-coop.html) to change legislation related to the regulation of cooperatives in Germany. The standard business canvas and related start-up conversations leave anon2488317424 room for cooperatives as organizational alternative. This is unfortunate, but legislation has something to do with it so this can be addressed. (This is also what interests us in the property-design-related research agenda outlined for the [ICT-54](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/applying-for-the-h2020-collective-intelligence-call-looking-for-operational-partners-and-collaborators/11974/71) proposal, btw). **What would be your message to others who did not attend this event?** Talk to us if you are in the area. I think we are familiar with many actors and initiatives you will find useful if collective intelligence is part of what you think about, and we are happy to make you part of our ongoing conversations. The alternative ecosystem already exists, as is so often the case; the question is anon2696444391 to nurture it, grow it, keep it alive, make it viable." 2,67987,2019-12-29T12:46:33.216Z,12250,1,16,15,1,1,0,28.2,67889,anon3379761435,anon3747875924,"[quote=""anon3747875924, post:1, topic:12250""] Because almost all participants spoke German (and all events were conducted in German), I am afraid that it is somewhat unlikely that our local follow-up discussions (of which there are anon2373157426 a few, see below) will find their way to this platform. While event registration was set up on anon1577251828 for German-speaking participants, online registration was not often used, instead participants contacted the organizing team via email. [...] anon2696444391 difficult it is to create conversations for people who bring concerns and interests but have anon2488317424 patience for the kind of academic exchanges that may or may not operate well within the boundaries and logics of academia but certainly don’t easily open up to create welcoming atmospheres for first-timers. [/quote] Yeah, story of my life. Back in 2013, we started looking into early Western monasticism as a possible solution to this. The idea is: 1. Optimize [human-to-human communication protocols](/t/4748) for working together. 2. Be open to any newcomer, but insist on the protocol being non-negotiable. We know from cultural evolution biology (for example [Joseph Enrich](https://secretofoursuccess.fas.harvard.edu/) and [E. O. Wilson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._O._Wilson)) that human evolution is driven by [group selection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection), as well as individual selection. In the evolutionary history of *homo sapiens*, there is a clear pattern: the groups that are best at collaborating (while being able to protect themselves from free riders) win. Since Edgeryders' ""hello world"" post in 2011, we have been constantly asked for smoother user experience, lower-effort onboarding, and, yes, multiple languages. We have tried to accommodate, with various degrees of success. Eight years on, the jury is still out about the ROI of all that work. There is a tradeoff: when you create a fun, nice event, more people will join it than would be willing to discuss on online platform, so that's a win. The loss is that these people are now mostly going to communicate with each other at the scale of the event (in the tens of people) as opposed to those who are using the platform (in the thousands of people). The interaction breaks down, and I am convinced that the intelligence in ""collective intelligence"" is in the interaction, in all but the trivial cases (like guessing the weight of a pig at the Plymouth country fair). In principle, there is a solution: highly [modular](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modularity_(networks)), but still connected, interaction networks. These are instantiated by people being in the small worlds of local events, and connecting them with the larger world of the online discussion, like you, @anon3747875924, are doing here. In practice, these solutions work more by art than by science, and we have not completely cracked the problem yet. :frowning:" 3,68014,2019-12-30T17:48:21.650Z,12250,1,14,13,1,0,0,42.8,67987,anon3747875924,anon3379761435,Thx much for sharing this. Part of this art imo is finding ways of weaving biographical moments into our exchanges that differ from the narrow confessionalisms cultivated by other forms of social media (sorry but I've all but given up on social media as we know it). 4,68025,2019-12-31T14:31:12.344Z,12250,1,12,11,1,1,0,12.4,68014,anon3379761435,anon3747875924,"[quote=""anon3747875924, post:3, topic:12250""] biographical moments [...] that differ from the narrow confessionalisms cultivated by other forms of social media [/quote] I am not sure I understand... can you give an example? Also, I added the link to my early stab at Protocol, back in the unMonastery days: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/protocol-0-1-engineering-human-to-human-interaction-for-working-together/4748" 5,68041,2020-01-02T10:53:42.230Z,12250,0,12,11,2,0,0,27.4,68025,anon3747875924,anon3379761435,"I am really thinking of the ways in which (often surprisingly intimate) self-logging (whatever the site really) and the production of super-creative self-hoods feed into (and off) each other. Not sure anon2696444391 best to put this, but the sense that underlying the flow of seemingly easy-going conversation and ongoing excitement about the scaleability of personal and professional communication exists a darker current of anxieties over job loss, less-than-marketable skills sets and biographies, generally of sometimes desperate self-assessments that come up short of whatever expectations we may or may not be confronted with. The Italian media activist / theorist Franco ""bifo"" Berardi has referred to communication as ""soul work"", a term I really like, secularizing (and thus making available in ways beyond religious or spiritual usages) a key term to approach a more holistic idea of what we do when we express ourselves, linking self- and world-making in what is ultimately a uniquely personal practice and a way of being-in-the-world. Not as ""actor"", ""citizen"", or ""stakeholder"", but as a full human being, whatever that is exactly. This is also why I have never viewed alternative (federated etc) communication platforms as ""the"" solution or the sole means of exiting the universe of what I would call extractivist empowerment (no denying that people find ways to use fb et all for good, whatever the limitations of the corporate visions driving the development of these commercial platforms). If we follow the same protocols of individual and collective self-production on new platforms not much is gained imo. This is one of the reasons I find the data coop scene interesting - is there more than a technical solution? What ethos for expression in a world driven by data and automated decisions - guess that is one of the questions I have as we cross the threshold of another decade." 6,68263,2020-01-06T16:23:48.569Z,12250,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,67889,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"@anon3747875924, thank you for this discussion of your events. You mention in the beginning that the main language of the events and follow up discuss is German. We could still include and profit from that on the platform here as we are able to code in discussions of different languages due to the needs of the poprebel project :). So if people write something interesting in German, we would still love if it finds its way here someanon2696444391 :)" 7,88937,2020-12-14T17:30:31.208Z,12250,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,67889,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,@anon3747875924 We are currently planning a live caht AMA on the 12th of january on the topic of the accessebality of Data regarding COVID. Thought this could be interesting for some people who engaged with this. Ill leave this here as a note and will send you a reminder once the event post is up. 8,88973,2020-12-15T10:02:03.994Z,12250,1,5,4,1,0,0,26.0,67889,anon3747875924,anon3747875924,"@anon1753543892 thx so much for thinking of us. Much has happened around this topic over the past year, and we are embracing a ""dataspace design"" agenda for the next year - we began the year with ""dataspace culture"", are now in the midst of a ""dataspace health"" project (where collective intelligence issues reappear as cooperative data governance, data trusts, also the ""data union"" discussion advanced by media artists and more recently by https://streamr.network) and are now moving into ""dataspace energy"" - actually developing a H2020 proposal for which we'd be happy to see if there is interest here in such proposal..." 9,88975,2020-12-15T10:09:06.569Z,12250,1,4,3,1,0,0,25.8,88973,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"That sounds very interesting! Please share more information about those initiaves and projects :)" 10,88980,2020-12-15T10:50:51.530Z,12250,1,4,3,1,0,0,10.8,88975,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892 ok here we go: - on ""dataspace culture"", we did an open cultural data [hackathon](https://codingdavinci.de/index.php/de/events/saar-lor-lux-2020) and have now been working with regional participants on [crisis-response strategies](https://www.k8.design/hochschule/k8/projects-select/projects-details/kultur-plus-x) that range from specific digital culture projects to the launch (early 2021) of a [hub](http://xrhub.saarland/) for collaborative ar / vr / xr prototyping to closer cooperation with [coops](https://smart-eg.de/) supporting freelancers in the cultural and creative sectors - on ""dataspace health"", we are in the midst of a [health-and-ai](https://www.k8.design/hochschule/k8/projects-select/projects-details/health-ai) strategy development project that has already yielded surprising outcomes regarding health-related transformation processes. To anchor international discussions on data ethics / human-centered design in the region, we also started a [MyData](https://mydata.saarland) hub and are currently talking to regional stakeholders about use cases - we of course are intrigued by the [GAIA-X](https://www.data-infrastructure.eu) process but given the long-term agenda here are also looking closely at [X-Road](https://x-road.global/piloting-digital-prescriptions-in-germany-through-secure-data-exchange) - on dataspace energy - much longer story, but local energy providers are getting ready for a massive shift toward users as co-operators of an intelligent grid, [coop-perspectives](https://www.beg-koellertal.de/) of course loom large here, the role of energy data in the design and operation of such infrastructures is key - so what streamr is doing here ([sample project](https://www.krakenh2020.eu/)) is very interesting to us. All of this is framed by data ethics / data values discussion; word is still out, for example, whether data monetization is a good idea, about the extent to which data-as-rights and data-as-commodity are incommensurable perspectives (EFF says yes, Lanier et al say no). Or what role [alternatives](https://starting-a-revolution.com/) to the toxic venture culture might play locally, trying to find new bearings here as we speak." 11,88982,2020-12-15T11:17:05.164Z,12250,1,3,2,1,0,0,10.6,88980,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,Which H2020 call do you adress with the proposal you are working on? 12,88983,2020-12-15T11:26:04.124Z,12250,1,3,2,1,0,0,25.6,88982,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,[## European capacities for citizen deliberation and participation for the Green Deal](https://ec.europa.eu/info/funding-tenders/opportunities/portal/screen/opportunities/topic-details/lc-gd-10-1-2020) 13,89248,2020-12-25T00:15:30.933Z,12250,0,2,1,1,0,0,5.4,88983,anon3203746736,anon3747875924,That is a call for very ambitious projects. Are you in a consortium seeking the funding? 1,80543,2020-07-15T13:07:00.496Z,14101,1,26,25,19,0,0,195.2,80543,anon378502459,anon378502459,"Hi all. My name is Jeannine. I have run a network of coworking spaces in the Netherlands called de Kamer (which is Dutch for ""the room""). The first one opened in 2010. I was planning to take all the coworkers on a party bus tour of all the locations for our 10th birthday this month but, er, see, there was this global pandemic. :slight_smile: I am also involved with Open Coworking, the people who bring you coworking.org, and with the European Coworking Assembly. So I stay busy. My opening date means that we were operating in the aftermath of the Great Recession which in the NL went on through 2013. It was my experience that coworking spaces can serve their coworkers and themselves in these times even more effectively than when things are good, which is a bit paradoxical. It was our time of most rapid growth and the time when our coworkers were working together as they and we did not before or since. It is my own basic belief that coworking is best framed as the infrastructure of the future of work. I also think that COVID-19 has not so much changed the world as revealed to us things that always were there already and required us to deal with them. It has been a pulling back of the veil in that way. I think the future of coworking has great potential; I also think that for a lot of coworking spaces it is a real question whether they can hang on through the now long enough to get to that future. What I see around me is that the notion of coworking as rental of event space or as rental arbitrage is not sustainable. I have to watch out for confirmation bias though as this has long been my opinion, honestly. I should probably say it differently: I was never able to make that work. In may ways coworking has been internally focused and complacent with it, there are huge portions of society who have never heard of it or who have not been included as part of the movement and that is also not sustainable. These are things which must be addressed, I think, now more than ever." 2,80549,2020-07-15T13:21:04.534Z,14101,0,23,22,2,0,0,59.6,80543,anon1753543892,anon378502459,"@anon378502459 thank you very much for this introduction! Your point about the right understanding about what ""co-working"" actually is, anon2696444391 it goes beyond rental of event spaces and anon2696444391 only with this right understanding there is potential and sustainability of the field is very interesting! In preparation for this summit I did an Interview with Faye Alund, who pioneered co-working in Indonesia, and the way she stressed the meaning and potential impact of such places and the mindset that comes with the right understanding of them also as places of empowerment inspired me. Here is the interview transcript, in case you are interested: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/faye-alund-president-of-coworking-indonesia-and-co-founder-of-kumpul/14032 we still have to smooth it over a bit for easier reading, but there are some points inthere I could imagine you could connect well over with her." 3,80637,2020-07-16T17:56:27.702Z,14101,0,21,20,1,0,0,39.2,80543,anon3203746736,anon378502459,"Also, the kinds of work that function well in a co-work environment keeps expanding, esp as companies come to terms with anon2696444391 long this situation is going to continue...like years." 4,80678,2020-07-17T16:48:42.043Z,14101,1,20,19,1,0,0,44.0,80543,anon4218620973,anon378502459,"I really like your point coworking = ""infrastructure for the future of work"". It reframes its position. I also agree with the sector being more inclusive and outward looking, which I believe comes from awareness and actual visits to spaces. I think teenager and college students should all get to visit various coworking spaces to understand the potential of the spaces both as their future location for work and as community hubs." 5,80680,2020-07-17T20:40:50.402Z,14101,2,20,19,1,0,0,64.0,80678,anon3203746736,anon4218620973,"Wouldn't it be more accurate to say co-working is the future of knowledge work? Just because nurses, gardeners, electricians, etc.." 6,80706,2020-07-20T06:08:48.605Z,14101,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,80680,anon4218620973,anon3203746736,"So true, that it is applicable to only certain roles. But you might be surprised at anon2696444391 things are changing and any of those roles you mention with either admin work or the ability to consult virtually (e.g. health consultations remotely) are appearing more and more. Vets working remotely? https://www.barkyn.com/ virtual consultations for pet owners." 7,80719,2020-07-20T09:08:21.277Z,14101,3,20,19,1,0,0,69.0,80680,anon378502459,anon3203746736,"It's funny you should mention that as the first real identifiable cohort of coworkers in the first space was in fact nurses. Home nurses, to be specific. In the aftermath of the recession in the NL, it became both public policy and also wildly supported by companies to take folks on as freelancers. In my town of 50,000 people was located a company which employed home nurses and sent them out all over the region. In one go they changed them all to freelancers, women (mostly women) who had never been nor had they ever wanted to be entrepreneurs. I call these the accidental entrepreneurs. People who either are switched from employment to freelance or find themselves with no alternative but to freelance. This happens to women a lot and has for generations: My grandmother was an accidental entrepreneur, my mother was one, and I was one. So as a coworking space we mobilized a six week crash course in basic entrepreneurship: we got a guy from the Tax authority to come tell them anon2696444391 to do their taxes and keep records, we got a lawyer to come tell them that their rights were and to look at their contracts, we brought in several coworkers who were intentional entrepreneurs to come talk to them about the good side of freelancing. We had a guy come talk to them about pensions and about disability insurance. That kind of stuff. It was great fun also. In one of our locations we specialize in the trades: electricians, plumbers, roofers, painters, floor guys, the whole ball o wax. It is a warehouse space. They don't need desks and it only has like two and one meeting table for meeting with suppliers et cetera. What it does have is lockers -- did you know that many people in the trades keep tens of thousands of euros worth of specialized equipment in their vans parked on the street? I did not. Eek. It has forklifts and it has a space for prefabrication.In short it has what they need, which is not a designer space featuring baristas with short skirts. :slight_smile: Somebody needs to come to terms with anon2696444391 the world is changing for coworking to reach its full potential but I am not at all sure it is the coworkers. I think it's us." 8,80756,2020-07-20T12:40:41.669Z,14101,0,18,17,1,0,0,38.6,80719,anon4218620973,anon378502459,"Jeannine - the 6 weeks crash course in entrepreneurship is genius. I agree that many of these freelancers etc are accidental/by chance entrepreneurs.... but once that path appears to them, if you react with the support needed and advice. I imagine amazing things happen! I am adding in @anon4221853825 (Gary from Ireland) and @anon1444253885 (Faye from Indonesia) as these type of education initiatives they both spoke about with me in their work." 9,80781,2020-07-20T15:08:47.515Z,14101,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,80719,anon3828707713,anon378502459,@anon2252645440 look at :point_up_2:t5: 10,80790,2020-07-20T17:50:19.835Z,14101,1,18,17,1,0,0,43.6,80719,anon3203746736,anon378502459,Industrial co-working..this I had not thought about before. 11,80795,2020-07-20T20:28:06.475Z,14101,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,80790,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,I also wonder if some individuals and companies will use co-working spaces to test out ways that they might later use as they re-work their own office paradigms. 12,89194,2020-12-22T09:27:13.719Z,14101,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,80543,anon3828707713,anon378502459,"Jeannine, Hi, - I remember you mentioned something about tech you guys had developed for splitting pay for shared deliverables across the contributors/freelancers who collaborated to deliver it. Am I remembering correctly?" 13,89196,2020-12-22T10:27:51.000Z,14101,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,89194,anon378502459,anon3828707713,"Hello Nadia! How lovely to hear from you, I was thinking of you just the other day. You are remembering correctly, here is the website: [https://velvet.li/](https://velvet.li/) Here is the pitch aimed specifically at coworking, but it's the same tool: cowork.tools/index.php/payment-module/" 14,89197,2020-12-22T10:35:19.790Z,14101,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,89196,anon3828707713,anon378502459,":pray:t5: anon2696444391 are you doing? This looks really interesting, Id like to know more about anon2696444391 it works. Also, exploring questions like compliance with grant sources procurement/administrative requirements etc. Would you be up for a call sometime soon?" 15,89203,2020-12-22T11:11:30.000Z,14101,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,89197,anon378502459,anon3828707713,"Absolutely. When is good for you? Your Zoom or mine? :-)" 16,89210,2020-12-22T14:46:31.493Z,14101,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,89203,anon3828707713,anon378502459,ahhaha tomorrow? yours please :)) 17,89215,2020-12-23T09:46:45.000Z,14101,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,89210,anon378502459,anon3828707713,"Yes. Today is great for me. I have a few things now, but after about 1300 I am at your disposal. Let me know when is good! Warm regards, Jeannine" 18,89217,2020-12-23T10:15:50.792Z,14101,2,6,5,1,0,0,16.2,89215,anon3828707713,anon378502459,14? 19,89219,2020-12-23T11:13:38.000Z,14101,1,7,6,1,0,0,26.4,89217,anon378502459,anon3828707713,"Fabulous. Here's the link! My WhatsApp is +31 6 112 176 24 Jeannine van der Linden is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. Topic: Jeannine & Nadia Edgeryders Time: Dec 23, 2020 02:00 PM Amsterdam, Berlin, Rome, Stockholm, Vienna Join Zoom Meeting [https://us02web.zoom.us/j/89976068016](https://us02web.zoom.us/j/89976068016) Meeting ID: 899 7606 8016 One tap mobile +31207947345,,89976068016# Netherlands +31202410288,,89976068016# Netherlands Find your local number: [https://us02web.zoom.us/u/anon Warm Regards, Jeannine" 20,89221,2020-12-23T13:12:53.000Z,14101,2,7,6,1,0,0,16.4,89217,anon378502459,anon3828707713,"Hi, Nadia, I think I did not get you the link fast enough, my apologies. Let me know the next time that works for you? Warm regards, Jeannine" 21,89222,2020-12-23T13:26:06.559Z,14101,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,89221,anon3828707713,anon378502459,hey! 16h? 22,89227,2020-12-23T15:02:22.907Z,14101,1,6,5,1,1,0,11.2,89221,anon3828707713,anon378502459,"[quote=""anon378502459, post:19, topic:14101""] 899 7606 8016 [/quote] Im in the waiting room of the call" 23,89228,2020-12-23T16:31:03.000Z,14101,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,89227,anon378502459,anon3828707713,"Oh, Nadia. I fell asleep at 1400 and just missed you. I am sorry to have missed you. Are you done for the week or shall we try again tomorrow? Warm regards, Jeannine" 1,54049,2019-05-28T00:18:14.395Z,10013,0,17,16,6,0,0,93.4,54049,anon2333884629,anon2333884629,"Users of information technologies are aware that infrastructural systems exist and subtend their activities, and can conjecture explanations of anon2696444391 these systems work based on their examinations. However, information infrastructures are often as difficult to conceive as they are to perceive; they are both enormously complex and relatively invisible. This is both necessary and by design, but it does make examining and explaining the working of information infrastructure technologies rather difficult. As information infrastructures become less visible and more complex, two things can be assured; that there will be more in need of explanation, and less available to examine. The purpose of this project is to examine what role the invisibility and complexity of information technology infrastructures plays in a user's relation towards said systems. I argue that, within the context of human relations towards systems that resist aspection or comprehension, human methods of dealing with such systems constitute techne, or a craft. I further argue that the craft of dealing with occulted systems of non-anthropic scale and complexity is endemic to forms of information infrastructure other than the technical. I illustrate this point through examination of contemporary and traditional crafts that have historically dealt with complex and occulted systems, particularly those that are categorized as witchcraft or magic. Through this example I argue that magical practices are analogous to technical practices in regards to human relations towards the complex and hidden in information infrastructures. Using distant reading methods I argue that this concordance is a generalizable phenomena not limited to the populations directly observed, and demonstrate that a discourse on hidden and complex infrastructural systems is present within both the magical and technical literature. I theorize that, as the relative hiddeness and complexity of information infrastructures increases, the presence of and need for craftwork to it manage also increases. Our current information infrastructure environment is not fully agential. It is, anon2696444391ever, responsive, predictive, and surveillant. Magic's depiction of complex and hidden infrastructures and their relation towards the anthropic always already inflects and may yet inform our incipient relations towards the burgeoning and increasingly agential forces of technical information infrastructures. The narrative of the project is as follows. I have surveyed one hundred and twenty students in the field of information studies. These students do not know anon2696444391 many of their technologies work, particularly information infrastructure technologies. They are aware of this lack of knowledge, but that does not stop them from forming relations to these systems. They use a variety of metaphors and creative conceptions to describe anon2696444391 they imagine that these systems work. While these depictions may not be factually accurate, and the students are aware of their factual inaccuracy, these creative depictions still inform the students' relations towards these information infrastructures. Not all technologies are treated equally; there is a continuum. A hammer, for instance, requires no imaginative facility to explain; its functioning is both simple and visible. As technologies become less visible, their functioning is less evident, and requires more explanation. Similarly, as a technology becomes more complex it likewise becomes less explicable (and often seemingly agential). In instances wherein students described their relation towards particularly complex and hidden infrastructures, they often characterized these relations with reference to the concept of 'magic'. It is important to point out that these students do not think that technology is magic, but rather assert that it is practical to treat it as if it were magic. This invocation of the term magic is not an abrogation of rationality, but a description of their own relative, perspectival relation towards the phenomena in question. What does it mean to treat an information technology and its adjacent infrastructure as if it were magic? What does a magical relation towards complex and hidden systems entail, and anon2696444391 can our understanding of such relations inform the ways in which we use and relate to information infrastructures generally? In order to answer these questions we turn to examine magical practitioners and their crafts, with the intention of better understanding what it means to have a magical relation towards information infrastructures. I have interviewed sixteen magical practitioners for this project. Students often described their relation towards technology in terms of magic; similarly, magic users often described their relation towards magic in terms of technology. What, anon2696444391ever, is magic a technology for? Using the interviews as evidence, I argue that magic is primarily a technology that for dealing with, managing, and maintaining occult and possibly agential infrastructures that provide some service, or undergird some essential activity. Whether or not these infrastructures actually exist is of no consequence; what matters is that tools for their management do.One possible avenue through which to illustrate this connection between the magical relations of the students and the magical relations of the magic practitioners is to take a look at all of the similarities in practice, all of the good, practical advice relating to occult and possibly agential systems, and point out that these are all very similar to the sort of 'non-rational' responses from many of the students. The intent here is to point out that our non-rational approaches towards information infrastructures and their adjacent technologies do not arise de novo; instead, it is a mainstreaming of many of the warnings and precepts always already in traditional and contemporary magic practice. Our seemingly novel approaches towards and relationships to these complex and hidden systems technical information infrastructures are outgrowths of of centuries of work on dealing with just such phenomena by magical practitioners. This is also intended to demonstrate anon2696444391, in relation towards complex and invisible systems, humans tend to do the same sorts of things, and enact the same sorts of relations, regardless of whether we are talking about Siri or Faerie. While magic and science are often painted as being at odds, they may be framed as complementary. Science is the art of explaining the measurable, while magic is the art of dealing with the unknown. We need arts of dealing with the unknown now, and we will need them more and more as infrastructural systems expand in relative scale and as such diminish in relative visibility. It is natural and necessary for information infrastructures to be complex and hidden, but we need to be aware of anon2696444391 such occultation can inform and inflect human/infrastructural relations. The problem now is not that infrastructures are occulted by being hidden, in the sense that wires run in the wall or Wi-Fi works on an invisible spectrum. Rather, it is that infrastructures are becoming occult in scale; that is to say, they operate at non-anthropic scales, and are not amenable to anthropic aspection, comprehension, or analysis; at least not in a holistic fashion. Magic is an attempt to understand the management of systems, without necessarily understanding the system itself. In this sense we are all magicians, increasingly so." 2,54082,2019-05-28T12:08:42.742Z,10013,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,54049,anon1608948641,anon2333884629,"Fascinating approach, and I recognize the use of ""magic incantations"" in regard to technology. It baffled me anon2373157426 a bit when I was doing helpdesk work. People called me for help and mostly expected exactly this: A magic incantation that would make things work. They often didn't care to understand why it would work, and working incantations would usually make their way into other problems: _""It worked for my email, so it should work with the printer too, right?""_" 4,89213,2020-12-22T19:48:48.436Z,10013,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,54049,anon1753543892,anon2333884629,looking at technology through the model of magic practitioners …well this seems like a new window of perception. Will add to the book there @anon3828707713 1,64278,2019-11-15T17:15:14.397Z,11562,1,13,12,16,0,0,162.6,64278,anon180460388,anon180460388,"Hello! I’m Elenor, I study at changecourse.se, exploring social entrepreneurship and leadership. I also run the platform https://handlingar.se/ where you can request public documents and use freedom of information law digital. And in a few weeks you will hear me in Civic Tech Swedens new podcast about civic tech. https://civictech.se/ During this year I have been exploring and researching what tech initiatives there are in Stockholm for children and youth to learn tech outside of regular school as a leisure activity. With the emerging shortage of 70 000 IT-workers per year in Sweden (such as programmers, developers, technicians https://www.itot.se/2017/11/it-kompetensbristen-en-rapport-om-den-svenska-digitala-sektorns-behov-av-spetskompetens/), Sweden is in danger of falling behind when it comes to digitalisation and internet development. I believe that if we introduce and teach tech to youth early, there is a bigger chance they would have an interest in the topic later in life, and even when “choosing” a career. I want to start a tech-school that compliments the other tech-initiatives in Stockholm. Ideally this tech school would: Teach and use FOSS Not be on a volunteering basis Be outside of Stockholm, where the other initiatives does not reach. (And in the future, the whole of Sweden) Also focus on schools and teachers, change school curriculums to focus more on tech and educate about opportunities of programs for learning. Some of the question I still have to think more about: How this school would survive economical How to teach and use FOSS (and anon2696444391 you only do that?) The basic layout of the school. Who to collaborate with. Please reach out if you have any experience or comments about this. I hope to see a lot of you at the Teaching Teachers Open Source workshop in a few weeks!" 2,64284,2019-11-15T18:13:38.223Z,11562,1,11,10,3,1,0,37.2,64278,anon659222949,anon180460388,"[quote=""anon180460388, post:1, topic:11562""] I hope to see a lot of you at the Teaching Teachers Open Source workshop in a few weeks! [/quote] Welcome! I will be at the workshop. Very happy to see you here on Edgeryders. I also run the Blanon2066456771de house where the workshop will be hosted." 3,64286,2019-11-15T18:22:04.109Z,11562,1,10,9,3,0,0,37.0,64278,anon3828707713,anon180460388,"Hey Elenor, welcome to Edgeryders :)" 4,64289,2019-11-15T19:46:07.343Z,11562,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,64284,anon180460388,anon659222949,Thanks! Cool! See you there :slight_smile: 5,64292,2019-11-15T19:47:00.528Z,11562,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,64286,anon180460388,anon3828707713,Thanks!! :slight_smile: 6,64390,2019-11-17T09:23:26.171Z,11562,0,11,10,2,0,0,42.2,64278,anon1753543892,anon180460388,ping @anon3005461236 super interesting people at your workshop :) 7,64399,2019-11-17T14:43:27.824Z,11562,0,10,9,1,0,0,52.0,64278,anon3005461236,anon180460388,"I'm reading all the exciting posts and I'll spend next week updating and interacting as much as I can. Its overwhelming anon2696444391 much potential this community has. I think this workshop has potential to be something special." 8,66051,2019-11-27T16:59:40.365Z,11562,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,64278,anon1753543892,anon180460388,"@anon180460388 , just a quick reminder for the Edgeryders [Teaching Teachers Open Source workshop](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881). **The workshop takes place tomorrow:** 28:th November - 10:00 - 17:00+ Södra Hamnvägen 9 (Hus Blanon2066456771de, [Directions 1](https://goo.gl/maps/euAuAP2LDFBDrvb6A) here) Lunch included (nice and vegetarian) Would be a perfect fit for you!" 9,89153,2020-12-20T13:41:43.133Z,11562,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,64278,anon3828707713,anon180460388,"Hej Elenor! Hope all is well with you and loved ones in the chaos. Your project and questions came to mind during a recent conversation with @anon2746298864 about remote work as an engine for economic development of peripheral regions. We discussed some ideas for exploring this further, maybe this is of interest to you?" 10,89154,2020-12-20T13:43:30.179Z,11562,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,89153,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,@anon3005461236 might be something you would be interested in too? 11,89186,2020-12-21T21:12:28.401Z,11562,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,89154,anon3005461236,anon3828707713,"I'm interested in all thing FOSS which has to do with also fostering new generations of internet citizens. Finding ways of reaching out to the community is getting better and better." 1,63492,2019-11-08T12:50:19.131Z,11443,0,17,16,44,0,0,313.4,63492,anon3835921950,anon3835921950,"I’m a Dutch guy working in Brussels at the Foundation for European Progressive Studies (FEPS), a left-leaning think tank. Before that, I was at the European Commission where I worked for five years on competition law. I am close to home and “far” away at the same time, it’s far enough to skip the occasional birthday because it's still International. In my spare time I love reading, I could actually live in a library. Besides that I love to dance and I enjoy playing the violin. My main focus at the EC was competition law and European regulations, especially focussing on the internal market. Questions like, anon2696444391 should we address big companies from a regulatory perspective? How should we deal with transport sectors as monopolies? When I started my studies in International Relations, I was always looking for some truth, but scientific truths aren’t really existing in IR. It's very theoretical, but they don't really apply and everything changes when unforeseen events happen, such as the end of the Cold War. To me, this wasn’t very satisfying. That’s why I decided to study law, because there are these rules which you can apply, you'll get to a certain point where you’ll find an answer which makes sense. That's why I studied law. And that's why I ended up focussing on regulation. Unfortunately, I never really found the “truth,” because in law, the courts argue in one way or another: it's not completely consistent.The European court consists of several judges who actually don't agree on many things. The outcome turns into a judgment that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. When I decided to study law, and in particular competition law, is because it was relatively new and still kind of exciting, it's not that established. There's still room to maneuver new doctrines. But I guess always looking for certain truths in a post-truth world. When I was working at the EC, I always thought that there was someone at the top who knows anon2696444391 things work, that there's a grand strategy on anon2696444391 it all fits together. I never found that person. I started as a trainee at the application law unit. That sounds a bit abstruse, but it means that we were essentially checking whether the member states complied with EU law. There are anon2373157426 a lot of directives coming out each year. Member states have to transform them into the national laws. And this is kind of a black box area. We don't really know: we come up with all these laws of up level, then we think it's done. But a huge part of the laws, anon2696444391 it's being transposed, anon2696444391's the entire plan implemented, if it's being enforced. A good example of this is the data protection regulation. It's not that different from what already existed in 1995, the directive on data protection, but it was simply not enforced. So, anon2696444391 can we do better? How can you make sure that the law is not just existing on paper? What actually works? And this is a major problem for the commission: they don’t have the staff or the resources to really ensure that the directives are enforced to a significant extent. After that, I moved on to the digital single market. I guess I got the position because I was the only person below 30s with a smartphone. Okay, that's maybe a bit too reductive. When it comes to the Digital Strategies, many people don't really understand what it's about — this also includes me by the way. We looked at the digital sector for a long time in terms of competition. We started with Microsoft in the 90s, anon2696444391 they sold a pre-installed Internet Explorer browser on the Microsoft Windows operating system. I arrived much later at the Commission. We looked at copyright laws, we looked at the digital single market strategy, at the revision of the ratio of digital single strategy in 2017, at auanon2863106368omous and connected cars. We tried to define what kind of legislation we needed, to bring it into life in a broad manner. For example Audio Visual Media Services, we came up with a new directive two years ago. It was anon2373157426 broad, but a lot of it was linked to economic law, and then what we call digital law. This included portability, geo blocking, all from a regulatory perspective. But I think this is very problematic. We wait to see what comes and then we try to regulate it, instead of coming up with more positive, efficient motivational transitions. I'm not neutral or unbiased to this. But I feel that if we look at the history of the European Commission, when they started in the 50s, 60s, the progressive rate was the future. It was to create an internal market to take power away from Member States and create one common market. The idea was that it would allow for political integration, and would block war: a nice progressive society where everybody would be happy. It’s a very good story. But now we're in a different environment: we’ve created this huge internal market, but the political structures are not there. And for me, this is a key driver for inequality. It's kind of a neoliberal model where they let the markets do what it has to do. And then maybe if there's some kind of narrowly defined market failure, then EC would step in. For example with geo blocking that's the case. And we have many laws and copyrights. Whereas with competition, obviously, you’d like to restore perfect competition, but it hasn't really worked. It's a very fragmented approach, in a way a very reactive approach. I understand that law is important, and we should have it. The general data protection regulation is I think a step in the right direction, but it can't be the only thing. You also need to govern. And for me, that means steering investment into a specific technology or a technological application that you want. To use public procurements and all your buying power to steer it all into a better direction: environmentally friendly, interoperable, etc. We're not doing that enough, because the commission isn’t willing to intervene in a market like that. It's also difficult because of the treaties, the four key things are the freedom of movement, capital, services, and goods. One of the reasons I left the Commission is because it is a anon2373157426 hierarchical organization. This makes it sometimes difficult to get things moving. There's anon2488317424 room for personal initiative, especially when you're not high up. And it can take a very long time to get higher up in the Commission. ## Creating a Tech for “Good” That’s why I was excited to join a smaller team, where you can have more of an individual impact. I was hired, essentially, to take on the digital portfolio. And my main task is to steer the digital transition in a more progressive direction. This means to use digital technology as a driver for young people's aspirations, to reduce inequality, and to create a more participatory democracy. In order words, anon2696444391 tech could be used for the good of the people. One of the items I focus on is data governance. This means access to data, which is extremely important in areas such as Smart City development: a lot of new digital infrastructure is being rolled out, but it's not very accountable. It's often driven by narrow efficiency concerns. There's a lot of different motives for people to behave the way they do. It's not just market concerns. It's also solidarity, sociality. And the systems don't take that into account. Governments often don’t understand the systems, especially on the local level, they don't have access to the data that's being produced. They outsource the entire management of the systems, the key criteria, to private parties. And I think that's a problem. And I think that if we take a very close look at anon2696444391 we design the infrastructure, we will be locked into long term contracts, with very expensive systems that will decide anon2696444391 people live together in a city for decades to come. I think we have a real opportunity to make this more participatory and more accountable, but we have to take it. The same counts for the debate about the automation of jobs: what kind of work will there be in the future, anon2696444391 can we help people you to find meaningful, remunerated activity in the decades to come? How does it look like? Many public authorities, and people working on policy policy — including myself — don't really understand the systems. But because of austerity, budget cuts, they're very sensitive to the narrative about cutting costs and efficiency. They believe the systems can solve everything, but actually don't understand them. That’s why they outsource it without really asking the difficult questions: what exactly is the problem you’re trying to solve? Can we solve it by just collecting data ourselves and coming up with some automated system? A lot of those AI systems essentially feed on existing data. We feed an AI data system with occupational roles, and the jobs that people have. This means it will train on data that sanon2696444391s that a lot of managers are male, and a lot of cleaning personnel are female. If you add that data for a labor application, women will more likely get an ad for cleaning jobs, and not managerial roles. The system has learned that it’s the most efficient, because that's often what we know. When we talk about predictive policing, it has sanon2696444391n to steer officers to serve the neighborhoods which are well off: the chance that certain people get caught is higher in those. So, you create a self reinforcing loop. If this is anon2696444391 we build systems —by just importing existing data — it will penalize those — minorities, the poor people — and they’ll become even more disadvantaged. It’s a crucial problem. I read in a recent report that the Austrian labor department started to use AI to decide anon2696444391 they should spend the resources for rescaling and training the unemployed. And given the criteria, they would focus mainly on people that had the most chance to find a job. What happened was that people who needed help the least, actually received the most resources. Whereas the people that had the least chance to actually find a job again, were left out: it wasn’t considered an efficient investment. You need to understand anon2696444391 this tech works, because the institutions using them often have certain targets. Probably the central authority tells them “you need to help this percentage of people for this amount of money.” The outcome, anon2696444391ever, means that the people who need to help the most will get it the least, and the other way around. I found that anon2373157426 instructive for the kind of thinking that that's happening on a more personal level. What I've seen when talking about technology, is the fact that we don't understand it. When I worked at the Commission, I was also involved in some IT projects. There was no oversight, and we wanted to have system deadlines, increase incredibly overturn. And it's just a sense of helplessness, because you don't understand it. We outsourced something, which is not directly related to AI, but which I found anon2373157426 instructive for myself. When I worked for a certain organization, we had a specific problem: a complaint form, and we wanted to lessen the workload for ourselves, because we got too many complaints and we couldn't handle it all. We needed to find a way to make us more efficient. Under the guise of automating things, it became no longer accessible. We made it more difficult for people to complain. Yes, we put the complaint form online, but we also created a number of technological hurdles. The result meant it was actually more difficult for people to complain, we restraint the options to complain. And this is also a part of the digital environment, you can design exactly everything the way you want it in a way that you can't in the physical world. But you can also inadvertently make it more difficult. For me that was very instructive, because the narrative is always “we put things online, we make it digital, to make it more accessible. Closer to the citizen, to be more effective and more efficient.” But I feel that the underlying trends are that's what matters with technology. It's not the technology itself, it's the socio-economic environment. It’s often austerity. “We need to cut costs. We need to cut budgets,” And the market logic is preparing the public sector. The result is often that people aren’t held accountable by the solutions. You see this a lot in healthcare and the social care sector where everything is digitized: you can't actually talk to a person anymore. There's often a binary logic, you can click this or that. But often, your case doesn't fit those options. And then you're left out, there's no one to complain to. And it means reduced access. You see it a lot in the US where, once they digitize procedures, the amount of people that are allowed to claim benefits goes down drastically. ## Tech and economics Unbiased data doesn’t exist. There’s a bias in the criteria for which these systems optimize. The key problem for me is always the logic behind systems, not just AI, but with the entire data structure we're building. It's linked to the fact that we essentially try to automate humans. There’s actually very interesting parallels between neoclassical economic thoughts and cybernetic influences that kind of drive the digital revolution forward: the idea that humans are binary. If you look at neoclassical economics, it's just about individuals, there's no such thing as a society. And these humans respond to stimuli. There are certain preference set, they'll try to optimize that. It's a very reductive view of what human beings do, anon2696444391 they think, what they are. And if you look at the cybernetic movement, that thinking is also behind computers, the internet, etc. It's based on individual logic, an individual methodology, and it's very reductive. Data is a simplification of the real world. And that's exactly the same with neoclassical economics. It simplifies things. You have a hypothesis about anon2696444391 humans behave and then you built an entire theory on that, which influences policy-making. In the end, people end up playing by those new rules and behave in a more simplistic way. And I see that when I'm on Facebook, I sometimes feel automated myself in the way I use language, for example. In a way, we’re becoming automated. And I think that's the key problem. We never regulated a space that we actually could democratically control. With the libertarian origins of the internet — and the fact that it became really crucial in the 90s, which was the height of the neoliberal period — we never did anything about it. And that means that all the potential those technical technologies, are being used by conservative forces that already have power. For them, it’s interesting to ask anon2696444391 can we prevent people from reoffending. They only want to know which people would do it again and automatically lock them up. For me, this is linked with the conservative bias. These technologies are being used to amplify the logics which are dominant dominant already. You won’t get the right questions, because if you want to get the right questions, you need to have a new set of people, you need to have a more participatory style of governing technology. And this also means making it more local. These technologies are similar to major monopolies, but they actually govern the infrastructure of cities and communities around the world. They don’t know their culture, their language, their interests, their problems. How can they offer an infrastructure — a system that will supposedly help them resolve issues — if they don't even know them? One of the key examples is Facebook anon2696444391 operates. They pay a lot of money to engineers to come up with a massive one-size-fits-all system. Whereas people actually have to govern to innovate, such as the information which they would like to receive. But it isn't, it's selling us products. People actually check the info that's being put online, if it's illegal or not. In addition, they’re outsourcing employees to people in the Philippines who have to make split second decisions about what would be appropriate or offensive to a certain community they often don't know. ## Solutions I think some basic steps could be taken in the right direction, such as we would in other other areas, such as in the car sector. Before a car comes to markets, they have to comply with anon2373157426 a lot of safety requirements. The same counts for the construction industry. Someanon2696444391, for physical infrastructure and for cars, we have these regulations, but we don't have them for digital infrastructure. Let’s say Facebook releases a new algorithm on a billion people, we could introduce certain requirements. I think that's kind of a basic step. You have some key criteria, you have some transparency, and documentation requirements about anon2696444391 the systems work, what it's trying to maximize. Some may argue that it would stifle innovation. But I don’t think we have to be worried. We saw the exact same arguments for the general data protection regulation. Companies said it would kill innovation. This is dramatic. Now, other countries have exercised legislating in a similar fashion and Apple has made it their competitive advantage. I don't think it would’ve happened without GDPR. It's a bit dubious for companies to say, we can deliver everything frictionless, we do things that you have never seen before. But when we ask them to explain anon2696444391 their system works to protect certain important principles, suddenly it’s completely impossible, its “beyond their capacity.” I don’t believe them, it's just not in their own interest. And you see that across the board. For me “innovation” means nothing. It just means new stuff. And new stuff can be good or bad, it can be useless, or useful. If innovation means coming up with better ways to exploit us online and ruin our privacy, that fisn’t innovation. Innovation — abstract from context and important value, where human experience is valued — doesn’t mean anything. I'd like to see technological applications that make sense for us, that makes our life better. A big question around anon2696444391 to come up with standards in Europe is related to those which don't undercut industrial production and outsourcing everything. One idea is introducing something like a carbon tax. It may be controversial, but we need to have this discussion regarding technology. Europe is a very important consumer market, it’s too big for most companies to do ignore. And we saw this with the GDPR. That's why ultimately — and perhaps this radical — for certain key services, like the way we communicate, talk online, or gather information it perhaps shouldn’t be completely private. Companies will try to avoid the law where they can, and especially because a lot of these companies are global, they don't even have that like cultural link. 99% of people passively comply with a law because it corresponds to their cultural values and social norms. If nobody would comply, and it's only enforcement and the law simply will not work. You can never have 100% enforcement, but maybe in the digital sector it's all about shared social norms. That's what makes laws effective, but it has to be based on something which already exists. This is more difficult in an international environment, because a lot of companies, don't share those norms, a lot of companies don't give a crap about privacy or data protection. This introduces some additional challenges for the effectiveness of law. That's why I think that public authorities need to be more actively involved and have more ownership of these systems. That doesn't mean per se at the level of the state or the European level, it can be at the local level. Because just outsourcing everything to the market and then trying to control those developments will be very imperfect, and it will be too late. For example, the way we communicate and talk to each other, that is crucial for societies and in the private in the past, that has never been fully privatized. So when, for example, when the US became independent, the first thing they did was making the Postal Service a public service, because they understood anon2696444391 important that was for the national community, it had a strategic value. Similarly, for TV, we have public channels which must carry obligations, strict limits on advertising, because governments understood this is important. This is what binds societies together. This is anon2696444391 they share values My hope is that people are more willing to accept technological change if they have a saying in decisions. For example, at the company level people could be involved designing what criteria for AI systems. If they understand the purpose and the meaning, they are much more likely to accept it and work with technology. That's what I would like to see. We don't know anon2696444391 technology functions. We don't know why it’s being used and by whom, and to what effect. Why do I get sanon2696444391n certain ads, why does my Facebook feed looks the way it looks? That would already matter. Starting with basic transparency, accountability, and economic democracy, so the people that are affected by those systems have a say in the way the systems are built. We never decided what we want to do with technology and anon2696444391 we democratically want to shape this transition. And I think we can do that.I think then we can see a lot of benefits. We’re at a crucial paradox: we have all these technologies, a lot of the have proven that they work, but they’re just not really delivering benefits. Especially with regards to important areas for anon2696444391 people live: I still have to go to work from nine to five, even though we have all this flexibility, we’re just monitoring it more. I still have to drive to work and I'm still stuck in traffic — there are actually more traffic jams now in the past, we move slower. We pay more for the same houses. Why is all this innovation not channeled into ways for people to help them live a better life? ## Post a thoughtful comment below ahead of the **[workshop on AI & Justice ](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326)** on November 19! This will help us to prepare good case studies for exploring these topics in detail. It will also ensure participants are at least a bit familiar with one another's background and experiences around the topics at hand." 2,63921,2019-11-12T17:35:34.686Z,11443,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,63492,anon1753543892,anon3835921950,"@anon1502828353, @anon3835921950 is also going to be at the AI & Justice workshop. How do those examples of law-making EC work and AI connect to your points about a cautious, known-media-frenzy approach to AI in healthcare?" 3,64563,2019-11-18T18:25:30.231Z,11443,0,13,12,49,0,0,262.6,63492,anon3203746736,anon3835921950,"Wow - @anon3835921950 - it took me awhile to get through this set of remarks, this treatise - almost a manifesto. So many good points I can hardly keep track. >Let’s say Facebook releases a new algorithm on a billion people, we could introduce certain requirements. I think that’s kind of a basic step. You have some key criteria, you have some transparency, and documentation requirements about anon2696444391 the systems work, what it’s trying to maximize. > anon2696444391 the systems work, what it's trying to maximize. This is what they are not going to tell us no matter what. This to them is like the recipe for Coca Cola. But it is the thing we most need to see, because otherwise a more honest title for the business might be RatMaze. You can poke around here and there but ultimately you are going to go where they want you to go. You spoke of the ""self reinforcing loop"" up there. I was thinking about this same thing through many of the paragraphs prior to you naming it. You also named part of the problem that contributes to this loop when you said that government doesn't understand the technology, or words to that effect. I think part of the reason why this is true is because government workers and tech people are usually two different kinds of people. Neither the government worker or the private sector, usually engineer, person is smarter than the other one. Rather, one - the private sector programmer or engineer tends to be more of a risk taker and the government person tends to be more stability seeking. I know this might seem like an over simplification, and maybe it is. But what informs me in this comes not so much from a government perspective, but from years i spent managing a digital media project for a large privately owned newspaper and TV company in the San Francisco Bay Area during the height of the dotcom boom of the 90s. ""Privately owned"" meant that I could not offer stock options for my ""startup"" (which was a very cutting edge media project for that time), only good salaries and benefits (important in the US where there is no govt healthcare) and stability. So I had to seek out those kinds of people. Almost all the seriously inventive programmers and project people I knew - and I knew a good number of them from the years I spent in online community management - wanted the higher stakes poker tables of silicon valley where their work could bring them the chance of big paydays but also they could be on the street anytime. These are the makers. The stability seekers tend to be more comfortable mediating between the makers and the rest of society in one way or another. That keeps the public happy and wanting the stuff. So tech has a big self reinforcing loop going right there. Same with cyber security where often the ones who commit the crimes wind up working for the government after they pay their debt to society so to speak and are thus watched all the time anyway. My point is, in addition to all the other complicating factors, the dynamic between these two types of people/workers is part of it too." 4,89073,2020-12-16T17:47:50.911Z,11443,0,9,8,8,0,0,71.8,63492,anon1679055112,anon3835921950,"Wow, a great post. Definitely opened my eyes about few things. Regarding the paradox of EU laws not implemented properly and lack of cohesion at EU level, I just had a really funny experience: I am building a project in Croatia, and I wanted to speed things up. So I first checked with the bank of my Croatian company, if I can get a loan for constructing some houses etc. They said no as all my current revenue is on my Belgian accounts (I also have a company in Belgium and I am a freelancer since some time). Then I checked if I can do it with my Belgian banks, as my revenue is here. Well they said it's impossible as the project is in Croatia. It was so confusing, as both countries are in EU and I couldn't understand the issue. Considering it's a construction investment, basically just finishing construction will bring the value of the property to double of the loan I was asking...I considered that very safe. They explained to me that there are systems in place but just in theory, that they don't work properly. Also if you look at it logically, if I really wanted to cheat in some way, I certainly wouldn't run from Belgium to Croatia or vice versa. I would go to Dominican Republic, or Thailand...something that actually makes sense. The part about innovation and responsibility with special focus on IT sector also struck the cord within me. I wrote about it [here](https://medium.com/the-innovation/entrepreneurship-and-innovation-our-responsibility-34dbed989379) as well. We really need to take a good, hard look at technology. It has grown so much in such a short time that nobody really adapted or figured out what the consequences really are. For me IT is a huge potential but we aren't using it properly yet. Very interesting examples of AI used, if you don't mind I will quote you few times in my new article :slight_smile: I am writing now on the subject of AI use specifically and the dangers of seeing algorithms as best solutions for everything. What really triggered my response was seeing more and more news about using AI in most improbable ways. Like using it to solve the Japanese issue of having way too few children being born and more and more single adults just not being able to find or keep a partner. It is a deeply human issue. It requires very critical look into various aspects of socioeconomic conditions in Japan...I highly doubt using AI is the best solution to reduce the numbers of humans drifting away from their humanity." 1,53347,2019-05-13T05:19:24.337Z,9881,1,60,59,90,0,0,587.0,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"![Edgeryders-Fest-FB-1200x628-erik-01|690x361](upload://zqt8FYHco4GYZqdg26gwrvTSkpV.png) https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/ 28:th November - 10:00 - 17:00+ Södra Hamnvägen 9 (Hus Blanon2066456771de, [Directions](https://goo.gl/maps/euAuAP2LDFBDrvb6A) here) Lunch included. ### Background and motivation to the workshop Internet, computers and programming is introduced from birth in our children's lives. The current generation is the first, that never will have experienced a world without internet. As coming generations enter the educational system, they are now introduced to tools, thoughts and concepts derived from the digital world. Today, most of them are proprietary - opposite to free and open source. What happens to knowledge in our future digital world if proprietary world views on computers, internet and programming are left unchallenged? Free and open source values, such as transparency, collaboration, freedom and empowerment - are already cornersanon2863106368es in our educational systems. So why don't we apply them when it comes to teaching computers? The hypothesis is that teachers simply don't know enough of anon2696444391 free and open source really is central to knowledge itself. I believe we need to educate teachers and leaders in schools/academia in this area. That is anon2696444391 we change the game for the benefit of future generations of internet citizens. This workshop aims to help to bring together actors in the educational systems with those from the core free and open source landscape. YOU are invited! Together we'll try to find ways to influence the educational system towards open source values. We stage the workshop to learn from joint experiences and develop concrete ways to reach the education system. ### What will you experience? Learn about the cornersanon2863106368es of Free & Open Source and anon2696444391 those are fundamental to learning anything in a digital world. Collaborate on anon2696444391 to reach out to teachers with this message as one important group to win. Have a great time shaping the next generation internet citizens.
# Frequently asked questions ### How do I get an invitation/ticket to this workshop? Use this form which will take you through the registration process: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/ ### How is this event being organised? This event, and the festival it is part of, is coordinated on the anon1577251828 platform (where you are now) and co-curated through a series of community video calls. We have allocated a collaboratively managed budget for the festival and operate on a solidarity basis. Participants who need some financial support to organise or be able to participate in the festival are eligible provided they contribute towards making it a meaningful and generative experience for all - in the run up to, during and/or after the event. If you would like to join us but are unsure as to anon2696444391 to contribute, don’t worry. Create an [anon1577251828 account](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login), then [tell us a bit about yourself here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you) and we will guide you along from there. ### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png) ### Does getting involved mean I endorse the funders views or actions? No. What you are doing is contributing to an open consultation on the topic of anon2696444391 to build a next generation of internet infrastructure, technologies, business models etc that promotes the wellbeing of humans and the natural environment. The consultation methodology is designed in such a way as to allow for diversity of views, premises, disciplines, themes and contexts. We employ open notebook science principles and the results will be presented in the form of a research report accessible to everyone after the event. You can follow the process, review the methodology and open source tech we are using and engage directly with the research and coordination team here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/workspace ### What is the code of conduct? It is important to us that everyone in the room feels welcomed and safe; if you have any particular concerns or needs just send me a PM here on the platform or write to [anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu](mailto:anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu) . The Edgeryders online platform technology and activities are intended for people to cooperate within and across projects trying to build a better world. The word “better” has here a fairly broad range of meaning. These [Community Guidelines](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/netiquette/45) are here to help you understand what it means to be a member of Edgeryders. Don’t forget that your use of Edgeryders is subject to these Community Guidelines and our [Terms of Service](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/id/44). ### What happens with my data? You can read about our [Terms of Use and Privacy Policy here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/terms-of-use-and-privacy-policy/44). Also: * [Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016 on the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data, and repealing Directive 95/46/EC (General Data Protection Regulation) (Text with EEA relevance)](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.119.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:119:TOC) * [Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0046) * [Handbook on European Data Protection directive](http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Handbook_data_protection_ENG.pdf) * [European Commission website - Protection of personal data](http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/)" 2,53352,2019-05-13T08:11:01.885Z,9881,1,48,47,1,0,0,34.6,53347,anon930036515,anon3005461236,"Sounds like a really good idea. I know a anon2488317424, and have some particular idea around FOSS user community. Yes, let's put something together to benefit as many as we can! Simon" 3,53354,2019-05-13T08:49:47.846Z,9881,0,46,45,1,0,0,29.2,53352,anon2197402769,anon930036515,"I am in Free and Open Source Software since anon2373157426 a while. I believe I'd have great fun preparing and doing a workshop, but would need proper financial compensation atm." 4,53373,2019-05-13T14:11:32.236Z,9881,1,44,43,1,0,0,78.8,53347,anon3379761435,anon3005461236,"Hello @anon3005461236, I have a question: who do you mean when you write ""our community""? The IOH community?" 5,53379,2019-05-13T14:31:52.117Z,9881,1,42,41,1,1,0,33.4,53347,anon659222949,anon3005461236,"[quote=""anon3005461236, post:1, topic:9881""] I seek a few people that would like to arrange a joint workshop in teaching our community fundamentals in Free & Open Source. Are you that person? Lets educate. [/quote] I would love to do this with you at Blanon2066456771de. What a great initiative!" 6,53411,2019-05-13T19:54:35.625Z,9881,1,37,36,1,0,0,17.4,53373,anon3005461236,anon3379761435,"Oh, well, I'm not to picky about what the community really is. Those that sanon2696444391 up I guess." 7,53414,2019-05-13T20:21:57.722Z,9881,2,35,34,3,0,0,62.0,53379,anon3005461236,anon659222949,"@anon659222949 @anon930036515 I see a two step process here: 1. Come together some experts, discuss and produce some material on: ""How do we explain and educate in the four freedoms of FOSS to teachers and students""? 2. Then, a plan on anon2696444391 we run this education through our community in a good and way such as they too can teach others? The rationale for this strategy is: Since computers and programming gets introduced very early in children's lives today - planting FOSS values is of critical importance in anon2696444391 the next generation of internet citizens reflect on software and its use/implementation. Today, they get pumped even in school, with the message from a proprietary world view: ""copyright"", ""limited use"", ""eula:s"", ""trademark"", ""Intellectual property"", ""patents"", ""digtal right managements"", ""activation codes"", ""geo blocking"", etc. etc. etc. These are the things taught in schools today. We, as in IOH, need to work out a means to foster a generation that desire something else and it needs to start with a narrative that can be understood by teachers, students and people not experts in computer science. In my role as Open Source officer at Scanai and board member of Open Source Sweden I can provide contact with higher academics should this develop that way, but its likely best to allow this to grow and develop inside a community that already share these values. I can also provide access to a ""test platform"" in form of a school (Gymnasium, 17-19 years) to test the education. I know a teacher that would love to participate in such a setup. I might even pull strings on the ""Gymnasiechefen"" in Stockholm, who happens to be a relative. These above items are all ""possible"" paths later, but lets start small and create the education for ourselves first?" 8,53415,2019-05-13T20:27:12.585Z,9881,0,36,35,4,1,0,57.2,53414,anon659222949,anon3005461236,"Sounds good! We need to find a group that can develop the material. I need to be realistic about what I can offer towards this initiative. [quote=""anon3005461236, post:7, topic:9881""] These above items are all “possible” paths later, but lets start small and create the education for ourselves first? [/quote] What I can commit to relating to this program is the following: 1. Providing space at Blanon2066456771de for seminars, hackathons etc. 2. Participation in workshops 3. Edgeryders and Internet of Humans branding if/when needed 4. Plugging this project into the wider IoH ecosystem" 9,53416,2019-05-13T20:56:23.164Z,9881,0,35,34,1,0,0,72.0,53347,anon930036515,anon3005461236,"Yes, I can see value in teaching **about** FOSS principles (I'm no great expert here, though I could help work out **anon2696444391** to teach them -- I can also see value (perhaps even more) in teaching with examples of FOSS projects, illustrating the principles through them. And also, what has also been missing (badly), teaching people about what needs to happen at a social, collaborative level for FOSS projects to work. How much time I am willing to give *pro bono* depends on the alignment here. All good wishes Simon" 10,53429,2019-05-14T08:09:16.094Z,9881,0,36,35,1,0,0,12.2,53411,anon3379761435,anon3005461236,"Ok, so you mean ""this emergent community here in the Internet of Humans space"" as opposed to, say, ""the tech community in the Nordic countries"", or any other community you might be a part of. Noted. :slight_smile:" 11,53430,2019-05-14T08:10:26.456Z,9881,0,38,37,1,1,0,12.6,53414,anon3379761435,anon3005461236,"[quote=""anon3005461236, post:7, topic:9881""] I can also provide access to a “test platform” in form of a school (Gymnasium, 17-19 years) to test the education. I know a teacher that would love to participate in such a setup. I might even pull strings on the “Gymnasiechefen” in Stockholm, who happens to be a relative. [/quote] Wow, this is really valuable!" 12,53476,2019-05-14T16:48:19.958Z,9881,1,37,36,1,0,0,17.4,53347,anon3203746736,anon3005461236,Don't free/open source programs run into trouble a lot of the time because the person(s) who created it often move on to other projects and don't support them as they need to migrate to upgraded operating systems and hardware requirements? 13,53522,2019-05-15T10:03:10.994Z,9881,1,38,37,1,1,0,62.6,53476,anon2197402769,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:12, topic:9881, full:true""] Don’t free/open source programs run into trouble a lot of the time because the person(s) who created it often move on to other projects and don’t support them as they need to migrate to upgraded operating systems and hardware requirements? [/quote] I assume with ""programs"" you mean smaller open source software projects. It is not difficult to find such situations, but the answer to the kind of ""inverse"" question **is true as well**: ""Doesnt it happen that open source projects can be continued by other person(s) after the original creator(s) do not support them anymore?"". And in contrast to the also often happening event that a **proprietary software product gets the plug pulled out**, at least there is the technical and legal possibility to continue using (or migrating) that specific technology. So, I do not really understand where your question points at. I see a couple of points (maintainer burnout, blind dependency on projects with unclear (future) stories, and all the reasons that lead to failing or abandoned projects). Besides, it is not the programs that run into the trouble, but those users relying on it and not being able to create a situation (or society :) ), where safety nets or a responsibility chain (you are holding one end yourself) are in place for the stuff one relies on. For the tech-savy: some pretty nerdy puns inside: https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/7dc7de/what_happens_when_linus_dies/" 14,53538,2019-05-15T14:35:30.492Z,9881,1,33,32,3,0,0,26.6,53522,anon3203746736,anon2197402769, Yes you are correct it is true that an open source program of any sort can be carried on by others which is a great virtue and strength. Some of my experience is with nonprofit and other small organizations who are not well funded and go for open source software to save money but like you say it is necessary to have somebody with technical ability to maintain an even move ahead these programs. 15,53542,2019-05-15T15:14:04.527Z,9881,2,33,32,1,1,0,111.6,53538,anon3005461236,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:14, topic:9881""] Some of my experience is with nonprofit and other small organizations who are not well funded and go for open source software to save money [/quote] Open Source (for humans) - in my opinion - is not about saving anyones money. Its about maintaining a culture of **transparency, collaboration, empowerment and freedom.** Running computer systems, in any form, comes with a cost - be it your time or your money - its equally true. Its true also, that if you don't care - you are still free (under the four freedoms of foss) to USE the software as you please. However, if you think that running/modifying the software comes **without cost**, you need to rethink. Free and Open Source Software has nothing to do with cost. Its about what principles the software operates under. In FOSS software, those principles are ""hacked"" into western copyright law by utilizing a license scheme that guarantee the [four freedoms](https://openedreader.org/chapter/stallmans-four-freedom/) for anyone and mandates that this freedom is passed forward. Its popularly called ""copyleft"", but its really just a hack of the existing anglosaxian copyright. As curiosa on this is that it was not until this year that the chines law recognized open source licenses as valid at all under Chinese law which tells a story about the current copyright legislation and its reach." 16,53566,2019-05-16T01:27:20.305Z,9881,0,29,28,1,0,0,10.8,53542,anon3203746736,anon3005461236,Well said. 17,53803,2019-05-23T12:48:59.817Z,9881,1,29,28,1,0,0,60.8,53347,anon137241670,anon3005461236,"What is the parameter to measure the ""know in depth""? I'm on this world since 1997. Is time a good metric?" 18,53806,2019-05-23T13:39:01.684Z,9881,1,32,31,1,0,0,76.4,53347,anon3214242932,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236 I'm very curious about this. Currently applying for money on anon2696444391 to educate kids and youngsters who have not been reached by existing educational initiatives around coding and software/hardware. Key aspect of the funding applications is having a starting point from FOSS/OSHW in order to widen mentality, thinking and leadership." 19,53828,2019-05-23T18:23:40.772Z,9881,1,32,31,1,0,0,76.4,53806,anon3005461236,anon3214242932,Lets get together and try meet soon? 20,53875,2019-05-24T00:02:48.734Z,9881,1,33,32,1,0,0,16.6,53347,anon3203746736,anon3005461236,"Hi Erik. @anon659222949 sanon2696444391ed me the transcript of the listening triads from the event in Stockholm. I was anon2373157426 taken with a rather eloquent statement you made there, ""My dream is to have an internet where everything is truly allowed. And it should be easy to choose where to be, if you disagree with something, don't go there."" I wonder if you would be willing to elaborate a bit on this. You had also mentioned monopolies. Do you see monopoly behavior that prevents this? Maybe the key is ""easy to choose where to be."" Maybe it just seems easy, but we get funneled into things without our knowing it?" 21,53931,2019-05-24T14:55:20.556Z,9881,1,32,31,1,0,0,136.4,53875,anon3005461236,anon3203746736,"Thanx. I think that you in a broad sense need to question which parts of internet you choose to act within. This also boils down to society level. + Where on internet should we put our children who cant separate good from bad, truth from lies? + Where do we invest our common resources to the benefit for whom? + What causes real harm and suffering? + Where do we go for good, love, meaning and all the other existential question that always have made us humans? Perhaps many of your good concerns and questions finds reason in the discussions on this. I dont know." 22,53941,2019-05-24T17:13:37.670Z,9881,0,31,30,1,0,0,11.2,53931,anon3203746736,anon3005461236,"Regarding kids, I am generally opposed to ""nanny state"" laws that assume parental duties that are in my opinion best left to the parents." 23,54193,2019-05-30T07:18:29.178Z,9881,0,29,28,1,0,0,25.8,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"Here, a perfect example on anon2696444391 we are forced to watch ads: https://m.slashdot.org/story/356372 In my view, this kind of behaviour from govt/corp is what is typical for our internet today. Force feeding of Ads. NO means to escspe." 24,54228,2019-05-30T13:51:49.218Z,9881,0,27,26,1,0,0,25.4,53828,anon3214242932,anon3005461236,"I would love to meet soon. Before summer vacation would be great. Perhaps next week if you're in Stockholm on Mo, Tu or Wed - or the week after? I reckon it would be interesting to visit https://jarvaveckan.se/ on 12th of 13th and explore if there are any software/digital initiatives represented there and willing to talk FOSS. I'm considering hosting a prototype open workshop to flash Android phones with LineageOS.org for folks who wish to get rid of Google's and OEM vendor bloatware. At https://GoTo10.se or similar. I know at least one non-techsavvy person who would be interested in that but I'm also wondering if there could be a crowd and if/anon2696444391 the prototype can be developed for kids/youth to learn more about hardware & devices." 25,54230,2019-05-30T13:52:44.964Z,9881,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,53803,anon3214242932,anon137241670,I guess time is a great measure - especially if one has continuously has been learning more and deeper or broader knowledge in the field. 26,54231,2019-05-30T13:59:39.482Z,9881,1,25,24,1,0,0,30.0,53542,anon3214242932,anon3005461236,"http://FFKP.se and http://morus.se/ did an interesting study on this comparing proprietary with FOSS in public sector municipality school. The conclusion was something like: it costed the same financially and the migration to FOSS costed time as people had to relearn things they knew well from the proprietary world (similar to Münich's migration to FOSS). However, I it's important to stress that when looking at this there are multiple other capitals that are changing which can be game changers, such as the social capital, as in FOSS with the idea of empowering the user (such as school kids) to read the source code of school systems and learn which opens up for building new intellectual capital and other capitals. This is a huge benefit to FOSS in comparison to proprietary which is not seen within an analysis only comparing the difference between financial capital." 27,54245,2019-05-30T15:28:43.116Z,9881,1,26,25,1,1,0,60.2,54231,anon3005461236,anon3214242932,"[quote=""anon3214242932x, post:26, topic:9881""] The conclusion was something like: it costed the same financially and the migration to FOSS costed time as people had to relearn things they knew well from the proprietary world [/quote] I always stress: There is no such thing as a free lunch. FOSS has nothing to do with money. FOSS is about knowledge, freedom, trust/transparency, empowering and maybe a anon2488317424 community. I dont care much for the economy personally. There will always be enough people that worry about those aspects. I'm focusing on the Human part of this in this context." 28,54254,2019-05-30T18:12:29.944Z,9881,0,28,27,2,1,0,75.6,54245,anon3214242932,anon3005461236,"[quote=""anon3005461236, post:27, topic:9881""] I always stress: There is no such thing as a free lunch. FOSS has nothing to do with money. [/quote] I agree FOSS in itself has nothing to do with money. [quote=""anon3005461236, post:27, topic:9881""] FOSS is about knowledge, freedom, trust/transparency, empowering and maybe a anon2488317424 community. [/quote] For sure! I'm not too knowledgable about Linux/Debian/Ubuntu communities but from what I understand community seem to be a beneficial variable. Projects with great communities often thrives in comparison to the ones without. [quote=""anon3005461236, post:27, topic:9881""] I dont care much for the economy personally. There will always be enough people that worry about those aspects. I’m focusing on the Human part of this in this context. [/quote] Good point. I think the Human part in this context is what can have something to do with community, belonging, a sense of meaning and purpose in contrast to proprietary software that you can't be a part of in the same way." 29,56599,2019-07-13T14:48:26.087Z,9881,0,25,24,1,0,0,70.0,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"I'm going to Borderlands and will be able to host a Open Source workshop to initiate this work. If you are interested let me know and I'll set it up on spot." 30,56911,2019-07-19T20:18:46.725Z,9881,1,24,23,1,0,0,59.8,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"On wednesday at 12:00 there will be a workshop in Kidsville I'll be hostig on the topic. If you are going to Borderlands, just sanon2696444391 up." 31,56925,2019-07-20T21:45:07.923Z,9881,2,26,25,1,0,0,35.2,56911,anon3379761435,anon3005461236,"Noted, @anon3005461236, and thanks. I won't be at Borderlands, but of course @anon659222949, @anon3214242932x and the Blanon2066456771de crowd will be there." 32,56926,2019-07-20T21:51:02.582Z,9881,0,27,26,1,0,0,25.4,56925,anon3005461236,anon3379761435,@anon3379761435 there will be more =) 33,57053,2019-07-23T16:08:47.070Z,9881,0,28,27,1,0,0,25.6,56925,anon3214242932,anon3379761435,@anon3005461236 I can't be there but I'm happy to take part of any documentation and learnings from the Borderlands workshop. Wish you the best of luck! 34,57798,2019-08-09T11:03:29.586Z,9881,1,28,27,1,0,0,60.6,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"So the workshop was a success at Borderlands with a handfull of participants. I didnt take any notes as it was more of a discussion on the topic. I will try to follow up on this with a second workshop in Stockholm where enthusiasts could meet and try to develop a 'for-teachers' fundamentals of open source. If you are interested in helping me organize it, let me know." 35,57804,2019-08-09T15:41:23.080Z,9881,1,28,27,2,0,0,20.6,57798,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,@anon3005461236 that is very nice to hear! Do you think that workshop you mentioned would be something for the Edgeryders festival? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-festival-november-19-29-invitation-to-participate-in-co-designing-the-next-gen-internet-track-of-the-program/10450 36,58135,2019-08-19T15:36:19.253Z,9881,1,27,26,1,0,0,15.4,57804,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,"Its very much so! I am a bit outdated on what this is though. I feel a bit rushed to meet the deadline for submitting. But if I can read up more and check my work schedule by the end of the week to see if it is possible? Is the deadline hard?" 37,58136,2019-08-19T15:47:00.457Z,9881,1,28,27,2,0,0,65.6,58135,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236, the deadline is not very hard at the moment. If you can tell us something next week that will also be fine. Which city would work best for you? Is Stockholm a good fit? We are having a community call tomorrow at 18:00 Brussels time to discuss the general directions a bit more. If you want you can join in there to get an idea :). We would love to have you there! https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-call-20th-of-august-your-chance-to-shape-the-anon1577251828-ngi-festival/10549" 38,58336,2019-08-25T10:43:03.415Z,9881,1,26,25,2,0,0,20.2,58136,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,"I am interested and if the dates are in november, it works. But I dont understand 100% anon2696444391 it works. Exact dates. Where it is? Who to contact? How to sign up? How can I help Etc. My topic is ""anon2696444391 we should educate teachers to educate on open source for humans""." 39,58435,2019-08-27T07:36:59.953Z,9881,0,27,26,1,0,0,25.4,58336,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236, no problem. The event will be in November and we can be a bit flexible between the 19th and 29th to set up things so it suits those participating. singing in the [sheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D_CMPm43FDXg5EE_5zDk6C_A_yG6s25HrH4wPuRRP7I/edit?usp=sharing) as you did is a good start as well as the quick proposal post you made (https://anon1577251828.eu/t/register-for-anon1577251828-festival/10581/6). looking forward to developing it further with you :)" 40,58567,2019-08-29T13:22:50.759Z,9881,0,5,4,13,0,0,66.0,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236, do you have a (copyrightfree ;)) titel image to put in your first post here? That helps us when pushing the threads out for further engagement which I would like to do with this one in preparation for the workshop :)" 41,58900,2019-09-07T10:53:07.863Z,9881,1,25,24,2,0,0,65.0,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"I've created a ""logo"" for the event on the 28:th november in Stockholm @anon1753543892 ![poster-image-1280-720|690x388](upload://vjiwmtDIXMeFck1XLKsrCqruuN8.png) I hope its what you need. I hope to be able to participate in the online meetings down the road. I've been so locked up in other things I haven't been able to yet." 42,59075,2019-09-10T19:38:17.964Z,9881,1,26,25,4,0,0,45.2,58900,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"If YOU know any leader of a school or teacher that you think should participate in this event. Help them find me. I need help with outreach and marketing of the event." 43,59091,2019-09-11T08:13:28.863Z,9881,1,26,25,1,0,0,15.2,59075,anon659222949,anon3005461236,Do you have a description of the event and what they might learn? 44,59092,2019-09-11T08:52:19.588Z,9881,1,25,24,1,0,0,30.0,59091,anon3828707713,anon659222949,someone to talk to is [Carl Heath](https://www.facebook.com/cwheath) 45,59093,2019-09-11T08:57:46.812Z,9881,1,25,24,1,0,0,30.0,59092,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"Some more people to maybe contact? @anon @anon @anon" 46,59094,2019-09-11T09:00:21.738Z,9881,0,25,24,1,0,0,10.0,59093,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,Kanske @anon2682865457 har koll? 47,59246,2019-09-13T09:13:23.434Z,9881,1,19,18,1,0,0,28.8,53347,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,Erik heads up I edited your post to add tags and the location. So when we do outreach people can easily see the context. 48,59269,2019-09-14T08:54:41.814Z,9881,2,19,18,1,0,0,48.8,59246,anon3005461236,anon3828707713,"I'll produce a description to distribute @anon659222949 @anon3828707713 @anon1753543892 In short: 1. Learn about the corner sanon2863106368es of Free and Open Source and anon2696444391 those are equally fundamental to learning anything in a digital world. 2. Collaborate on anon2696444391 to reach out to teachers with this message as one important group to win. 3. Have a great time shaping the next generation internet citizens." 49,59288,2019-09-14T16:15:46.710Z,9881,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,59269,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,Do you have it in Swedish too? 50,59291,2019-09-14T19:07:15.281Z,9881,0,19,18,1,0,0,23.8,59288,anon3005461236,anon3828707713,"1. Lär dig om fundamenten i Fri och öppen mjukvara och hur det hänger ihop starkt med lärande. 2. Med utgångspunkt i detta, var med och hitta vägar att nå ut till lärare och pedagoger som kanske en viktig grupp att nå ut till. 3. Ha roligt medan vi formar nästa generation internetmedborgare." 51,59295,2019-09-15T01:39:05.290Z,9881,1,19,18,2,0,0,18.8,59269,anon2945747231,anon3005461236,"This is great @anon3005461236! Quick question: can you make the text a bit more active? So, instead of ""participants learn,"" you can write ""learn about""." 52,59326,2019-09-16T05:22:22.112Z,9881,1,20,19,7,1,0,59.0,59295,anon3005461236,anon2945747231,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:51, topic:9881""] So, instead of “participants learn,” you can write “learn about”. [/quote] Could you help me out? I'm not sure what you mean. Thanx!" 53,59329,2019-09-16T06:21:51.908Z,9881,1,19,18,2,0,0,63.8,59326,anon2945747231,anon3005461236," Something like: * Learn about the corner sanon2863106368es of Free and Open Source and anon2696444391 those are equally fundamental to learning anything in a digital world * Collaborate on anon2696444391 to collectively reach out to teachers with this message * Have a great time shaping the next generation internet citizens [/quote]" 54,59337,2019-09-16T07:50:37.777Z,9881,0,21,20,1,0,0,24.2,59329,anon3005461236,anon2945747231,"Super, I modded." 55,59386,2019-09-16T15:18:16.443Z,9881,0,21,20,1,0,0,24.2,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236, higher up in this thread @anon2197402769 and @anon930036515 sanon2696444391ed interest in helping with this project. Are you in contact?" 56,59387,2019-09-16T15:22:45.088Z,9881,0,19,18,1,0,0,38.8,53347,anon930036515,anon3005461236,"Thanks for noticing that, @anon1753543892 ! Sure, please let me know if I can help. Simon" 57,60076,2019-09-29T04:50:56.106Z,9881,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,53347,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,Erik where would be the most convenient location (city) for you to do this in? 58,60077,2019-09-29T05:46:18.918Z,9881,1,18,17,1,0,0,43.6,60076,anon3005461236,anon3828707713,"@anon1753543892 has helped me book Huset Blanon2066456771de in Stockholm. I hope to be able to put more cycles into the preparations the coming weeks..." 59,60078,2019-09-29T05:52:03.925Z,9881,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,60077,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,"yayy, did you guys set the date yet with @anon1753543892 ?" 60,60079,2019-09-29T06:53:53.784Z,9881,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,60078,anon3005461236,anon3828707713,Yes I did. Its on the 28:th November. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/learning-about-free-open-source-sweden/9881/41 61,60080,2019-09-29T08:23:42.116Z,9881,0,19,18,2,0,0,73.8,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"HERE is a link with a compilation of the description and some more background etc. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HrLuf000bQecPwKhDUD3tNeSStfQp2OvtzN79Rz_Q6o/edit?usp=sharing I'm now at a stage where I need to figure out: [?] How to let participant sign up? @anon1753543892 can you help me? [?] How to reach out to: * Leaders within schools/academia * Politicians related to schools/academia * Experts and people that are already working on this subject * Enthusiasts * Teachers @anon659222949 @anon3828707713" 62,60105,2019-09-30T04:07:50.604Z,9881,1,19,18,1,0,0,43.8,60079,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,"Ah ok, great. We have built a website for the festival where people can find aggregated information and where they can sign up for a ticket by filling in a form. The festival site is updated by picking up content from our discourse platform (where we are right now) that is tagged a certain way. So to begin with what you do is creae a new post and copy past the content of the google doc into it. More info here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-festival-website-is-now-online-here-is-anon2696444391-you-can-add-content-to-it/10825 The way we will be promoting events, pushing out calls for participation and support is to point people either to the festival site or the individual post on anon1577251828.eu that contains the information about the event in it. When we do communication outreach we try to think of people who are well connected in the networks where we will find many people we are looking for. And we have to think about the constraints under which people are working. As I understand it, teachers in Sweden are underpaid and overwhelmed with an ever growing burden of tasks. So rather than try to engage them directly, perhaps it makes sense to start with people who have a direct interest in children drawing the benefits of open source? My first hunch would be technologists/ graduates of technical university programs who have children in school that we might want to reach out to. People who work in tech companies in Sweden and have school age children might be a good starting point. What do you think? Are they also likely to be members of some of specific labour unions? Where else might we find them... @anon659222949 might know about anon2696444391 KTHs Alumni association works? Another could be networks of people living in Sweden who went to schools like Hyper Island or the Chaos Pilots (@anon2682865457 might know if there is an alumni association/ some way of reaching them). Then we know that a lot of people likely to be on linkedin, facebook and instagram. There @anon850704935 will have a better idea of anon2696444391 to reach out to and engage people via those channels." 63,60131,2019-09-30T09:42:22.780Z,9881,0,15,14,1,0,0,38.0,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,Maybe students currently studying to become teachers would also be interested. 64,60139,2019-09-30T10:29:09.017Z,9881,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236, 1. Could you either update the first post in this thread with all the relevant information or make a new one topush ut via social media and on the minisite? 2. Regarding the signup: would the signup form we have linked to the get your ticket butanon2863106368 on the minisite work for you? If not, what questions would you need them to answer? (maybe we can add a section about which event you want to join). Or would prefer to have a typeform set up like the one we used for your proposal? If so, send me a list with your questions." 65,60331,2019-10-01T16:28:52.623Z,9881,1,19,18,1,1,0,13.8,60139,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:64, topic:9881""] Could you either update the first post in this thread with all the relevant information or make a new one topush ut via social media and on the minisite? [/quote] I'll update the post here. > Regarding the signup: would the signup form we have linked to the get your ticket butanon2863106368 on the minisite work for you? If not, what questions would you need them to answer? (maybe we can add a section about which event you want to join). Or would prefer to have a typeform set up like the one we used for your proposal? If so, send me a list with your questions. I'm not sure which one you mean... Could you be specific with a link? (sorry for not getting it, I've got so many stuff going on in this domain atm)" 66,60335,2019-10-01T17:02:36.002Z,9881,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,60331,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"we just had a discussion about the signup process and figured that we would like everyone to go through a form on the minisite (the butanon2863106368), but we will modify the questionair so it is clear who signs up for what :)" 67,60336,2019-10-01T17:21:54.055Z,9881,0,18,17,1,1,0,8.6,60335,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:66, topic:9881""] on the minisite (the butanon2863106368) [/quote] Which one, I don't understand which butanon2863106368 and where to find it?" 68,60338,2019-10-01T17:30:05.951Z,9881,1,19,18,1,0,0,28.8,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"To make it easier for interested participants to get an overview of the festival programm we set up this site : https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/ there is a butanon2863106368 there ""get your ticket"" right on the top of the site, and thats where everyone could sign up :). Currently, people are asked what they would like to help with, we will change that a bit to also ask which events they want to attend specifically ![image|690x459](upload://yPynioRroTTXB5Nd7QmH260UBFL.png)" 69,60339,2019-10-01T17:32:16.681Z,9881,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,60338,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,this is also where we would like to post a shor one paragraph bio of you and the other organisers :slight_smile:https://anon1577251828.eu/t/festival-participant-bios/10905 70,61853,2019-10-21T15:21:10.840Z,9881,0,17,16,1,0,0,38.4,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"Hej @anon3005461236, are you facilitating the workshop by yourself or do you collaborate with someone? And could you send us either a picture of yourself or them ""in action"" facilitating creative workshops or such for the flyer? or something else that would work as an image for a flyer like this: ![Edgeryders-Fest-FB-1200x628-AI-fabrizio-01|690x361](upload://6ikIsTz32JNcrp610hXUHIFuwVk.png) as well a one-sentence pitch to put on there? :)" 71,61909,2019-10-22T08:42:09.437Z,9881,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,@anon3005461236 I finished the flyers for you and replaced the header with one. you can find the files here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1lU9ewPpLPOay_ATVEt6GNzTIZit4riH8?usp=sharing 72,61929,2019-10-22T09:08:02.808Z,9881,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,61909,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,we need the texts on the flyers in Swedish but maybe @anon659222949 can help with this if he has 5 minutes? 73,61993,2019-10-22T17:01:09.691Z,9881,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,I can provide the text today. 74,62012,2019-10-22T19:04:17.350Z,9881,1,19,18,1,0,0,28.8,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"@anon1753543892 I've uploaded new images but I'm no artist, so they look kind of crappy - but the text should be alright I think. Let me know if that works. ![NEWTEXT-Edgeryders-Fest-Twitter-1100x628-erik-01|690x393](upload://auGj87tL0nLj03rxIuvLzD9Tfg3.png)" 75,62013,2019-10-22T19:48:41.155Z,9881,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,62012,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"i can only find the swedish versions there, what about the changes with the englisch ones?" 76,62014,2019-10-22T20:14:44.527Z,9881,1,18,17,1,0,0,43.6,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"![Edgeryders-Fest-FB-1200x628-erik%20svenks-01|690x361](upload://oYkhbecTFRG93mDH8pkWHBMrYll.png) here is the link to the folder with the swedish versions :) https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wxJvyS6kxdZJn9Ng3yHE-Mp6alykCiGv?usp=sharing" 77,62015,2019-10-22T20:17:26.424Z,9881,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,62013,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,"Oh, I kept them unchanged, do you want me to update them? Dont forget the ""?"" in the title? =D" 78,62016,2019-10-22T20:23:55.437Z,9881,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,62015,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"Ok, great, lets keep the englisch ones like they are if that's ok. Will put the question marks in later anon2863106368ight. overlooked those" 79,62772,2019-11-02T13:14:12.664Z,9881,1,21,20,105,0,0,554.2,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"![|624x327](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/AE4qpAW-3QT8F59O5A5-kkTHC1lsR_txUfnKux4dmTPKxStut8tNn9NpW4mfH02EHwEt0BxEcy7kQQX1Bs9YTv0V5-PTgk7i6MXvICApAAPMwUMKMEygY3ltCOFwoanCB2AWqeaa) https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/ 28:e November - 10:00 - 17:00 Södra Hamnvägen 9 (Hus Blanon2066456771de, [Directions](https://goo.gl/maps/euAuAP2LDFBDrvb6A) här) Lunch och kaffe ingår. **Biljett får du så här:** Surfa iväg hit så tar formuläret dig genom processen att bli registrerad: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/ ## Bakgrund till workshopen Internet, datorer och programmering blir idag omedelbart en del i våra barns liv. Kommande generationer, kommer aldrig upplevt en värld utan internet och datorer. I utbildningssystemet, introduceras de för verktyg, tankar och begrepp härledda från den digitala världen. Det är i skolan vi formar mycket av vår världsbild och idag är det mesta av den stängd, trots att den borde vara öppen. Vad händer egentligen med kunskap en digital framtid om en stängd vy på mjukvara och internet får lämnas outmanad i skolan? Fri och öppen mjukvara präglas av transparens, samarbete, frihet och bemyndigande. Etablerade hörnstenar i vårt utbildningssystem. Så varför lever vi inte som vi lär när det gäller det här området som kommer forma våra barn i grunden? Hypotesen är att skolvärlden saknar djup och kunskap hur fri och öppen källkod spelar en central roll i hur kunskapen om den digitala världen fungerar. Att utbilda lärare och ledare på detta område är så vi hjälper kommande generationer att forma nästa generation av internetmedborgare. Agerar du redan i skolvärlden, är ditt deltagande välkommet och kommer du från ett open source engagemang och från mjukvaruvärlden, är din kunskap och erfarenhet central för att forma innehållet. ### Vad kommer du att uppleva? Du kommer få chans att lära om hörnstenar inom fri & öppen mjukvara och hur de är grundläggande för kunskap i en digital värld. Du får möjlighet att dela med dig av din kunskap inom skola, mjukvara eller både och - samt - ta del av andras. Du kommer få samarbeta med experter och entusiaster om hur vi når ut till skolväsendet. Du kommer träffa människor med samma brinnande intresse för att forma kommande generationers internet i en spännande miljö. # Vanlig frågor ### Hur får jag en biljett? 1. Besök https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/festival/ticket och fyll i formuläret. 2. S[kapa ett anon1577251828 konto](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login) och [introducera dig i forumet.](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you). 3. När du introducerat dig på formet, får du en biljett till dig via email. ### Hur organiseras det här? Eventet och festivalen som den är en del av, koordineras på anon1577251828-plattformen och utarbetas genom diverse community-videosamtal och diskussioner på Edgeryders forum. Vi har tilldelat en gemensamt förvaltad budget för festivalen och fungerar på solidaritetsbasis. Deltagare som behöver ekonomiskt stöd för att organisera eller delta i festivalen är berättigade under förutsättning att de bidrar till att göra det till en meningsfull och generativ upplevelse för alla - i slutet av, under och / eller efter evenemanget. Om du vill vara med men är osäker på hur du kan bidra, oroa dig inte. Skapa ett anon1577251828-konto, berätta lite om dig själv här och vi guidar dig därifrån. ### Hur finansieras det här? Detta event är en del av initiativet NGI Forward Project Generation Internet (NGI), som lanserades av Europeiska kommissionen hösten 2016. Det har fått finansiering från Europeiska unionens forsknings- och innovationsprogram Horizon 2020 under bidragsavtal nr 825652 från 2019- 2021. Du kan lära dig mer om initiativet och vårt engagemang i det på [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu 1](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|151x61](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/aWEUTjfTHYzzLk-VCveGbT4fJk4WeirWSr4PjYgbJ1bOaQ3Qw36iVmCpy8PmbYkHApger_wixsYW5c0eYILWJpIT0nNFcaT07fZ-0n6LxipoX--yEBH-OT-45ZEGa6duaCpT4a-a) ![Eu emblem|151x100](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/t6XEqjeigoO7bOxBzzBXpurCanP-U6MutJE46PbdwkLula-UTPnNN8pIhA7ZT5aPORVv-40HouCgB9C8fHR8TOwVHMI_vax7kt9WkVjLb9qJtViiWxX28HdgpohHnq6pWniZqSwM) ### Betyder att engagera mig att jag stöder finansierarens åsikter eller handlingar? Nej. Det du gör är att bidra till ett öppet samråd om ämnet för hur man bygger en nästa generations internetinfrastruktur, teknik, affärsmodeller etc som främjar människors välbefinnande och den naturliga miljön. Konsultationsmetodiken är utformad på ett sådant sätt att den möjliggör mångfald av åsikter, lokaler, discipliner, teman och sammanhang. Vi använder s.k. öppen forskning och resultaten presenteras i form av en forskningsrapport som är tillgänglig för alla efter evenemanget. Du kan följa processen, granska metodiken och open source-tekniken vi använder och engagera dig direkt i forsknings- och samordningsteamet här: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/workspace ### Vilken värdegrund tillämpas? Det är viktigt att alla i rummet känner sig välkomna och säkra. om du har några specianon4205961763 problem eller behov, skicka ett meddelande till anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu. Edgeryders teknik och aktiviteter på nätet är avsedda för människor att samarbeta inom och över projekt som försöker bygga en bättre värld. Ordet "bättre" har här en ganska bred betydelse. [Dessa gemenskapsriktlinjer](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/netiquette/45) är här för att hjälpa dig förstå vad det betyder att vara medlem i Edgeryders. Glöm inte att din användning av Edgeryders omfattas av dessa gemenskapsriktlinjer och våra [användarvillkor](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/id/44). ### Vad händer med min data? Du kan läsa under [Terms of Use and Privacy Policy here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/terms-of-use-and-privacy-policy/44). Samt här: * [Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016 on the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data, and repealing Directive 95/46/EC (General Data Protection Regulation) (Text with EEA relevance)](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.119.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:119:TOC) * [Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0046) * [Handbook on European Data Protection directive](http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Handbook_data_protection_ENG.pdf) * [European Commission website - Protection of personal data](http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/)" 80,62776,2019-11-02T14:09:46.135Z,9881,1,20,19,1,0,0,59.0,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"Hej! Jag sträcker ut en hand nu till mina svenska nätverk eftersom jag tror att deltagande på den här workshopen i första hand kommer vara från sverige. Jag skulle behöva hjälp att nå ut till en massa nätverk av lärare och open source entusiaster. All hjälp jag kan få är välkommet och jag hoppas även du vill komma och hjälpa till forma nästa generation av internetmedborgare. Exempel på nätverk som jag vill nå ut till de kommande veckorna är: * Meetups ni känner till. * Arbetsplatser som präglas av IT * Skolor och skolledare * Studentnätverk - KTH, stockholms universitet, lärarhögskolan etc. * Kommunpolitiker. * Andra personer i dina nätverk * Ledare och beslutsfattare med ""digital profil"" * Ledare och beslutsfattare med ""skolprofil"" * Lärare - alla. Detta är länken till den post på Svenska som bäst beskriver hela eventet: [Hur lär vi ut open source](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881/79?u=anon3005461236) Jag som arrangerar eventet har en länk till min ""bio"" här: https://eriklonroth.com Jag finns inte på Facebook, så där skulle jag också behöva hjälp med att skicka ut information till de grupper som finns där. Om **du** vill hjälpa mig vara en Facebook ambassadör så tveka inte en sekund att höra av dig =) Slutligen vänder jag mig nu till dig som har ett brinnande intresse i det här communityt kring frågor om internet, lärande, skola och open source. Du behövs för att göra den här workshoppen verklig. Vill du vara med och göra en insats?" 81,62789,2019-11-02T18:19:22.557Z,9881,1,18,17,1,0,0,58.6,62776,anon2577017204,anon3005461236,"Hej, Jag jobbar som Lärare på Högskolor med IT, infrastruktur relaterat främst och så är jag engagerad politiskt och då i bland annat skol frågan, fast här är jag fortfarande lite blåbär och idealist. Och FOSS är något som har varit en röd tråd i mitt yrkesliv sedan 90 talet med mycket Linux. Så det är jag i en kortis presentation" 82,62964,2019-11-04T18:18:56.430Z,9881,1,18,17,1,0,0,28.6,62789,anon1753543892,anon2577017204,"@anon2577017204, do you maybe know some other people to invite to this workshop?" 83,63079,2019-11-05T14:18:58.591Z,9881,1,17,16,1,0,0,43.4,62964,anon2577017204,anon1753543892,I will investigate and get back. 84,63087,2019-11-05T14:39:49.934Z,9881,0,17,16,1,0,0,53.4,62014,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,I think it looks nice :) 85,63103,2019-11-05T16:10:36.824Z,9881,0,16,15,1,0,0,38.2,63079,anon1753543892,anon2577017204,"Great, we have lots of connections to the tech world, but we also want to invite teachers and academics that are not only focused on tech but also pedagogics for example, but using tech and could enrich their students bz teaching well ""open source"" :)" 86,63104,2019-11-05T16:11:42.225Z,9881,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,62772,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,@anon659222949 Skulle du kunna tänka dig lägga upp ett FB event med Blanon2066456771de som värd/cohost åt denna workshop? Skulle underlätta då vi kan alla dra i våra respektive nätverk... 87,63114,2019-11-05T17:27:19.262Z,9881,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,@anon2577017204 Amazing that you are onboard here! Why don't we catch up on a short call to see if we can invite more of our common networks? I could PM you my private number if you like. 88,63127,2019-11-05T23:15:23.368Z,9881,1,19,18,2,1,0,48.8,63104,anon659222949,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:86, topic:9881""] Skulle du kunna tänka dig lägga upp ett FB event med Blanon2066456771de som värd/cohost åt denna workshop? [/quote] Yes, just need all the graphics!" 89,63128,2019-11-05T23:42:24.507Z,9881,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,63127,anon3005461236,anon659222949,"I can give you the link to the primary text and @anon1753543892 has gfx... Thanx @anon659222949 alot." 90,63129,2019-11-05T23:44:27.862Z,9881,0,21,20,1,0,0,9.2,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,@anon659222949 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881/79?u=anon3005461236 91,63130,2019-11-06T00:00:12.128Z,9881,0,21,20,1,0,0,39.2,53347,anon659222949,anon3005461236,"[Done](https://www.facebook.com/events/2559984064230274/), @anon3005461236 and @anon3828707713" 92,63144,2019-11-06T08:19:52.586Z,9881,1,23,22,1,0,0,89.6,53347,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236 and @anon3214242932x @anon2577017204 ++ Letade efter lite OS relaterat material som ni kanske kunde ha användning av inför workshoppen: **1. Unfailing Massive Collaboration: Open Sourcing Everything** - [Description of the event](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/unfailing-massive-collaboration-open-sourcing-everything/5209/2) I [Documentation from the discussion](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/documentation-unfailing-massive-collaboration-open-sourcing-everything/5404) **2. Open Source beyond the screen** - Post by @anon - @anon3819120576 has a lot of knowledge to draw from his involvement in this [initiative to bring an open source car](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/open-source-car-project/1432) * This story from Cairo of a community that [DIYd four exit ramps](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hello-from-egypt/2540/5?u=anon3828707713) from the busiest road in a city with a population of 9.5 Million people because the government wouldn't. **3. A thread on the [history of open source communities](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-history-of-open-source-communities/1704)** **4. Closer to the actual pedagogical work/anon2696444391 to make it spread** Check out this story on the [Viral Academy Georgia: learning open source software to learn anon2696444391 to work together](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-viral-academy-georgia-learning-open-source-software-to-learn-anon2696444391-to-work-together/2954)" 93,63225,2019-11-06T20:13:28.666Z,9881,0,21,20,1,0,0,39.2,63144,anon3005461236,anon3828707713,"@anon3828707713 This is amazing material. Thank you so much! I'll definetly read @anon3819120576 and also the ""4"" below..." 94,63349,2019-11-07T16:17:42.334Z,9881,1,20,19,1,1,0,44.0,60105,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:62, topic:9881""] My first hunch would be technologists/ graduates of technical university programs who have children in school that we might want to reach out to. People who work in tech companies in Sweden and have school age children might be a good starting point. What do you think? Are they also likely to be members of some of specific labour unions? Where else might we find them… @anon659222949 might know about anon2696444391 KTHs Alumni association works? Another could be networks of people living in Sweden who went to schools like Hyper Island or the Chaos Pilots (@anon2682865457 might know if there is an alumni association/ some way of reaching them). Then we know that a lot of people likely to be on linkedin, facebook and instagram. There @anon [/quote] @anon3005461236 have you explored those possibilities Nadia described?" 95,63590,2019-11-09T09:18:43.178Z,9881,1,15,14,1,0,0,58.0,63349,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,I basically copied with some small edits the invitation Erik made in Swedish and have shared with my Stockholm network. 96,64038,2019-11-14T00:52:14.253Z,9881,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,63590,anon659222949,anon3828707713,"I’ve done the same, about a week ago." 97,64075,2019-11-14T14:40:56.741Z,9881,1,18,17,1,0,0,28.6,53347,anon2197402769,anon3005461236,"If there is any material to be shared afterwards, I'd be happy. Need conversation with a couple of folks from my community and would be happy to sanon2696444391 that I am not alone :)" 98,64095,2019-11-14T19:00:05.495Z,9881,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,64075,anon3005461236,anon2197402769,"Hey @anon2197402769! We would love to get some help with producing documentation. Will you be able to be doing this? #nospectators" 99,64097,2019-11-14T19:36:31.648Z,9881,1,17,16,1,1,0,13.4,64095,anon2197402769,anon3005461236,"[quote=""anon3005461236, post:98, topic:9881""] Will you be able to be doing this? [/quote] No sorry I will not be attending any event and also cannot produce anything streamlined. I thought if you have some slides to share, I'd be very interested. If you have anon2696444391ever some 75%-done slides or posters, I can look at them and give somewhat qualified feedback (if you share it on a nextcloud with Collabora Office I can add comments without interfering with your workflow. I guess OnlineOffice has the same feature)." 100,64398,2019-11-17T14:28:20.012Z,9881,2,20,19,2,0,0,39.0,64097,anon3005461236,anon2197402769,"@anon2197402769 Thanx for your feedback. I don't have any slides yet as I will prepare the material during the week. Interesting that you mention Nextcloud + Collabora. I have built a Juju bundle that anyone can deploy and use to get their private/open source cloud running. More about Juju and the Nextcloud bundle here: https://jaas.ai/u/anon I think @anon659222949 @anon3214242932x @anon3379761435 might be interested in this. Juju simplifies the process of getting complex systems deployed - such as - Nextcloud. Juju is open source and so are all the other components used within the projects. This is my personal exploration also of removing myself as much as possible from the AD-driven economy discussed here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-is-to-be-done-about-the-ad-based-internet-economy/9821/112) Its a great feeling and I also reap huge benefits from the flexibility I have. Even though all this is a bit off topic, you really highlight the principal boundaries between humans being ""subscribers"" to someone else's code - vs - empowered community members. This is something we can cover also during the workshop. Exciting times!" 101,64402,2019-11-17T15:48:42.477Z,9881,1,20,19,1,1,0,14.0,64398,anon2197402769,anon3005461236,"[quote=""anon3005461236, post:100, topic:9881""] Even though all this is a bit off topic, you really highlight the principal boundaries between humans being “subscribers” to someone else’s code - vs - empowered community members. This is something we can cover also during the workshop. Exciting times! [/quote] I do not really understand. You looked at my github - profile? Or because I offered review?" 102,64435,2019-11-17T23:03:17.228Z,9881,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,64398,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,Ping @anon3197437925 103,64447,2019-11-18T06:18:53.306Z,9881,0,20,19,1,1,0,9.0,64402,anon3005461236,anon2197402769,"[quote=""anon2197402769, post:101, topic:9881""] Or because I offered review? [/quote] I got intrigued by you comment mainly." 104,64659,2019-11-19T11:37:53.978Z,9881,0,24,23,1,0,0,9.8,63114,anon2577017204,anon3005461236,"Ok, but I have a challenge, I have got another consultant job and I don't know if I can make it at the 28/11. /Mats" 105,64914,2019-11-20T20:32:22.992Z,9881,1,25,24,1,0,0,105.0,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"Hello! I'm super excited to soon meet you all to have this workshop going. I've been preparing and been waiting to see anon2696444391 many would join and what background you all have. It seems from the signup, the group we are at the moment is just about perfect to make this workshop truly interactive! ***But feel free to pull in more of your personal contacts if you think you have some more that would be interested in participating.*** Use this simplified signup form which will take them/you through the registration process: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu/ ](https://register.anon1577251828.eu/) I have made preparations for the frame of the workshop - as you all have read. But, in the end - its we all, who brings to the substance. My part is of equal weight as yours - we need you. With this post, I hope to spark this weeks conversation that will continue into the workshop. **THE GROUP SO FAR** Below is insight into the group that you are part of. Its not a complete description, but it sanon2696444391s anon2696444391 amazing and wide set of skills we have in this community. * Someone thinking about starting a tech-school looking for networking! * An open source officer for a large company. * A start-up co-founder of a open source education platform in Africa. * A crypto currency open source software engineer with a range of future visions. * A politically curious university teacher in areas such as cloud, network, security with connections in the broad Stockholm FOSS community. * A leader and inspirational source for young engineers within a large company with a playful mind. * A project lead at the Stockholm public library with access to a ""learning lab"" and a vision to build ethical, open and social context for everyone. * A member of a group aiming to teach programming for young children with an ethical approach. **FOOD** We will have a food truck coming our way - @anon1753543892 have the details if you have any special input about the food. There will also be coffee. But, please also bring your own gifts - that is always appreciated. **WHAT HAPPENS BEFORE THE WORKSHOP?** As you know, a #nospectator event, like this, only becomes as good as what the participants make it. So, during this week - we depend all on the collective effort in making also the schedule fit our ambition: *""Find ways to influence the educational system towards open source values.""* The below is my initial attempt - now its your turn to improve it. **PRELIMINARY SCHEDULE AND WORKSHOP CONTENT** *Discuss the content during the week here in this thread and go from here during the coming week! Once the schedule and content seems good for our ambition - then we go with it* MORNING: 10:00 * Social - Introduction to Hus Blanon2066456771de and Edgeryders. * Information and organization - Describe the targets of the workshop. * Learning - Everyone fill in some basic questions for research. * Strengthen our community - Getting everyone on-board to the collective documentation. * Strengthen our community - Getting everyone on-board to the Edgeryders communication platform. * Learning - Have everyone get a chance to briefly describe their current activities around open source and/or learning, what resources you bring and what motivates you to be at this workshop. * Learning - Fundamentals about FOSS and its core values for learning by @anon3005461236 * Workshop/productivity: ""What would you like to learn more about about open source?"" * Workshop/productivity: ""How can we help you?"" LUNCH: 13:00-14:00 Workshop/productivity: ""What do we need to do to get teachers to teach open source in school?"" Workshop/productivity: ""What first steps can we take to get there using our collective strength?"" ACTION points: ""What is being done today in politics?"" - What can we do to reach politics? ""What is being done today in corporate?"" - What can we do reach corporate? ""What is being done today in academia?"" - What can we do to reach academia? ""Influence?"" - What can we do to reach out? ""Community?"" - What can we do to grow and nurture our community? @anon3449963673 @anon180460388 @anon @anon2786360199 et.al" 106,64942,2019-11-21T06:15:21.527Z,9881,0,23,22,2,0,0,29.6,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,Today on slashdot.org: https://m.slashdot.org/story/363696 107,65697,2019-11-25T14:28:03.384Z,9881,1,23,22,2,0,0,79.6,53347,anon2197402769,anon3005461236,"Btw I find the video at https://publiccode.eu/ a good summary of some of the issues. It exists in many languages (if you visit the webpage). https://download.fsfe.org/videos/pmpc/pmpc_desktop.mp4" 108,65760,2019-11-25T19:19:53.647Z,9881,1,24,23,1,0,0,14.8,65697,anon3005461236,anon2197402769,"@anon2197402769 Grymt, ta med dig något av detta till workshopen. Det kommer finnas utrymme." 109,65762,2019-11-25T19:21:37.486Z,9881,0,24,23,1,0,0,9.8,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,@anon3992156183 - the above is the draft content of the workshop. The ambition is to be able to continue the discussion and work afterwards also. Pulling you in to this work is important. 110,65763,2019-11-25T19:21:56.323Z,9881,1,23,22,1,1,0,14.6,65760,anon2197402769,anon3005461236,"[quote=""anon3005461236, post:108, topic:9881, full:true""] @anon2197402769 Grymt, ta med dig något av detta till workshopen. Det kommer finnas utrymme. [/quote] Je suis désolé, ne sera pas là." 111,65765,2019-11-25T19:23:31.700Z,9881,0,23,22,1,0,0,9.6,65763,anon3005461236,anon2197402769,"@anon2197402769 Ah. ""You could bring some of it to the workshop. There will be room for that.""" 112,65961,2019-11-26T23:31:52.412Z,9881,0,22,21,1,0,0,9.4,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"I encourage you all to **bring a computer** if you can. This helps us all to document our work and start establish a communication between us all. Also, bring snacks to share if you like!" 113,66093,2019-11-28T06:17:18.912Z,9881,0,18,17,1,1,0,23.6,64914,anon3379761435,anon3005461236,"[quote=""anon3005461236, post:105, topic:9881""] I have made preparations for the frame of the workshop - as you all have read. [/quote] This is stanon4205961763r work, @anon3005461236. Major kudos. ⭐" 114,66121,2019-11-28T09:58:08.819Z,9881,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"Nu börjar workshoppen! Välkomna alla nu kör vi! Här är en länk till ett gemensamt dokument: http://nextcloud.lonroth.net/index.php/s/8BRnY7NiMxKwJeR" 115,66146,2019-11-28T11:08:47.509Z,9881,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,https://www.itot.se/2017/11/debatt-brist-pa-it-kompetens-hotar-tillvaxten/ 116,66202,2019-11-28T13:31:02.408Z,9881,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,http://nextcloud.lonroth.net/index.php/s/KNakkJf88ojNBnY 117,66210,2019-11-28T14:08:50.086Z,9881,0,18,17,1,0,0,53.6,53347,anon2873026556,anon3005461236,[Assorted thoughts about IT that I wish I knew when growing up](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/assorted-thoughts-about-it-that-i-wish-i-knew-when-growing-up/11985) 118,66219,2019-11-28T15:02:32.949Z,9881,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,Ett sätt att bygga ett open source privat moln: https://jaas.ai/u/anon 119,66221,2019-11-28T15:45:32.982Z,9881,0,17,16,1,0,0,68.4,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,Are you guys ok with me uploading one of the photos of you working here? 120,66259,2019-11-28T18:51:28.895Z,9881,0,18,17,2,0,0,88.6,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236," " 121,66266,2019-11-28T20:14:54.208Z,9881,1,19,18,1,0,0,103.8,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"Thanx for a great time today. I'm a bit tired, but really happy with meeting you all. Special thanx to @anon1753543892 who did so much for us to get this event flying. Also bit thanx to @anon659222949 and the team at Blanon2066456771de. We hope to be back again soon for follow up workshops! I will create a summary from our day and post here along with the next step ambitions for the group. If you didn't manage to attend this time, this thread will be used for the continued discussions and connections. Participation and contributions to our work is welcome." 122,66267,2019-11-28T20:46:55.551Z,9881,1,19,18,8,0,0,108.8,66266,anon2873026556,anon3005461236,"And thank you @anon3005461236, as well as all other contributors! :hearts: I failed to anticipate it, but I'd really want some chat room to continue our conversation. You can find me at all the regular platforms (facebook, twitter, signal, telegram) but as I joined re-joined Matrix an old invitation to [Change Course Public](https://riot.im/app/#/room/#cc-public:matrix.org) popped up and I found both @anon3449963673 and @anon180460388 there. So I'm [@anon" 123,66270,2019-11-28T21:51:57.217Z,9881,1,18,17,1,1,0,13.6,66267,anon1753543892,anon2873026556,"[quote=""anon2873026556, post:122, topic:9881""] Is there a suitable real-time room for anon1577251828 anywhere? [/quote] What do you mean with that?" 124,66271,2019-11-28T21:53:06.228Z,9881,0,17,16,1,0,0,53.4,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,Thank you also to @anon3005461236 and the workshop participants for working together with us to make some positive change and for beeing good guest at House Blanon2066456771de :) 125,66281,2019-11-29T08:35:36.845Z,9881,2,17,16,1,0,0,33.4,66270,anon2873026556,anon1753543892,"Chat, group instant messaging. It's not spot on to bring ""Teaching Teachers Open Source"" into the ""Change Course Public"" room in Matrix, so I wondered if Edgeryders chat somewhere, or perhaps try to keep everything in this forum?" 126,66284,2019-11-29T08:50:17.545Z,9881,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,66281,anon1753543892,anon2873026556,"We do not yet have chat, but it is a feature we are considering from time to time. @anon659222949" 127,66287,2019-11-29T08:54:02.415Z,9881,2,17,16,1,0,0,18.4,66281,anon3828707713,anon2873026556,ah yes there is a self-hosted Edgeryders matrix chat that @anon3197437925 admins 128,66288,2019-11-29T08:55:07.410Z,9881,0,18,17,1,0,0,38.6,66287,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,@anon1753543892 I am thinking about the RIOT we use for fast coordination that perhaps a room could be set up in if you guys need/want @anon2873026556 ? 129,66490,2019-11-30T16:21:41.292Z,9881,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,66287,anon2873026556,anon3828707713,"For reference, conversation regarding chat [continued in a separate thread](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/chat-rooms-after-events/11997) :-)" 130,66816,2019-12-03T18:12:02.898Z,9881,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"""nextcloud"" is perhaps what the community needs. It has a rich plugin flora and I use it all the time to maintain my privacy, skills, ownership of my data and compute and just not having to totally become a subscriber." 131,67835,2019-12-21T12:06:36.899Z,9881,1,17,16,1,0,0,43.4,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"Here is the concluding document from the workshop! I hope it will be valuable for you as it was for me! Looking forward to you comments, reflections and edits: @anon1753543892 @anon659222949 @anon3828707713 @anon2873026556 @anon3449963673 @anon180460388 @anon3705902363 [Takeaways - Teaching Teachers Open Source.pdf|attachment](upload://of8CMwMKSNEktS2fJ2gvPeQMEkU.pdf) (386.0 KB)" 132,67838,2019-12-21T13:05:33.049Z,9881,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,67835,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"Thank you @anon3005461236. Could you please also copy the text (and if possible pictures into a post in this thread so people can read and reply here directly? :slight_smile: have a great Christmas time :)" 133,67841,2019-12-21T13:53:09.256Z,9881,1,18,17,6,0,0,113.6,53347,anon3005461236,anon3005461236,"**Takeaways: Teaching Teachers Open Source** *Workshop 28:th november 2019 in Stockholm* Participants ranged from: Academia, Software industry, Media, Entrepreneurship * A full day of learning, sharing experiences and discussions. * Teaching open source values in schools and general academia is much needed but faces significant resistance. We concluded that the drivers for adopting technology – any – in schools are generally driven by proprietary interests with anon2488317424 or no philosophical or ethical value ground. Proprietary software providers have the resources for marketing and lobby, plus, access to decision makers and policymakers. Winning over that force requires mobilizing our collective networks to create awareness and gain influence over these very important decisions of our time. * Continued efforts in educating our networks on why open source is important and anon2696444391 we can gain momentum is needed. Its also fun and appreciated. * New workshop planned in 2020 to bring more networks together and increase the education on the topic. * Stay connected on the Edgeryders platform: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881 * The food during the workshop was fantastic! **The Research Questions** *Method & Disclaimer:* We did a survey during the workshop addressing these questions. To protect the integrity of the participants, I have excluded the raw material from this document. The scientific value will be low off-course, but the reader may want to participate in future workshop to assess the relevancy. Take it for what it is. **==== Research Question: #1 Summary ====** > *“Gain better understanding of the current view on ethics related to computer science and anon2696444391 that view affects all education in the age of internet.”* I found from the survey that most people don’t know about the foundational values that govern free and open source. Most are self taught on computer science and consult relatives and friends on topics related to the digital world we live in. Almost nobody get their new knowledge from institutions. This raises many questions. ‘Not even software developers’ seems aware about the fundamentals of open source and the four freedoms. Since those are the baseline for all legal frameworks within open source licenses, copyright law, patent etc. this raises also more questions on anon2696444391 practice and policies are made in real life. **==== Research Question: #2 Summary ====** > *”Articulate a few core principles or concepts that would help teachers navigate when educating in the age of internet and computers.”* I found that its difficult to form consistent or shared thoughts on ethics without a common ground on which to base these ethics on. Despite the enlightened crowd participating in the workshop, opinions on “what”, “anon2696444391” and “why” in software is not well grounded. Most people learned about “computers and internet” late in their lives and the age of the participants was relatively high (about 30), which also reveals the immaturity of these issues at present day. It raises more questions about future generations, which was also the motivator for the workshop itself. It was a shared opinion that questions on ethics and morals in relation to software in general were much needed in education. **Exctraction from participants:** *Translated and minor edits to English from Swedish.* Name a few things important to learn in schools: > ”Participatory culture, the complexity of the works and noone should be just a consumer nor just producer.” Name a few positive outcome from teaching open source in schools: > ”Stronger democracy, co-creative citizens, increased empathy, more active, more self reliant and responsible.” Have you ever reflected over ethics in relation to computers and internet? > ”Yes, anon2696444391 it affects Exposure and Exclusion” Who are the most influential sources to what is taught on computers and internet in schools today > ”Politicians and Skolverket (Department of Education) but there is a responsibility with the parents.” Have you ever reflected over ethics in relation to computers and internet? > “A society divided between owners/capable, vs, unpropertied/incapable will have a bleak future.”" 134,68186,2020-01-05T12:18:26.371Z,9881,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,67841,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,Might be a good person to loop into whatever you are planning next https://mobile.twitter.com/grishund 135,68816,2020-01-16T11:45:02.289Z,9881,1,13,12,2,0,0,47.6,53347,anon2197402769,anon3005461236,"There is discussion about a webinar/community call within the next two weeks: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/lets-open-up-an-open-source-webinar-community-call/12409/" 136,69376,2020-01-26T14:07:12.859Z,9881,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,68816,anon1753543892,anon2197402769,Who want to join into the webinar? Please invite people you think might be interested and post what you think we should add to the next one :). Looking forward to seeing most of you on Tuesday! 137,69378,2020-01-26T14:16:18.228Z,9881,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,53347,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"Edgeryders Team is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. Topic: Biweekly Community Calls Time: 28th Jan, 18:00 CET (every second Tuesday) Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/3063210325 Meeting ID: 306 321 0325" 138,78334,2020-06-05T08:57:18.274Z,9881,1,6,5,0,0,0,6.2,69378,anon2197402769,anon1753543892,"https://www.europeanschoolnetacademy.eu/courses/course-v1:CodeWeek+Icebreaker+2020/about?fbclid=IwAR17BOvDnuG3jLDTG1uGBT5pYfhz_ff8OgrbGWRwrAIPl0Xq6J8a5ESmzfM No word about Open Source or ethics - but apparently one of the presentators is Brussels-based iiuc." 139,78391,2020-06-06T10:38:33.590Z,9881,1,6,5,1,1,0,26.2,78334,anon3005461236,anon2197402769,"[quote=""anon2197402769, post:138, topic:9881""] No word about Open Source or ethics [/quote] I have not looked at the material but if it is, as you sa, it is sad. Open Source as code has no differentiator from proprietary code. It adds absolutely nothing from a practical perspective. Open source adds the value to the whole society primarily on the ethical level. * Sharing of knowledge. * Collaboration before division. * Freedom through empowering. The functional aspects are secondary." 140,78394,2020-06-06T11:00:39.995Z,9881,1,8,7,1,1,0,11.6,78391,anon2197402769,anon3005461236,"[quote=""anon3005461236, post:139, topic:9881""] Open Source as code has no differentiator from proprietary code. It adds absolutely nothing from a practical perspective. [/quote] Uh I totally disagree. [quote=""anon3005461236, post:139, topic:9881""] The functional aspects are secondary. [/quote] Here I agree :slight_smile: Honestly, I find it hugely beneficial to be able to look up what happens at - lets say nextclouds database - and not been dependent on a support team (which might even not exist anymore because the company went belly-up)! Or to verify that installing a sinatra web-app does not phone home. I consider the study,share,improve-freedoms very elemental ""practical"" benefits from using Open Source. And given the context (""learning"") they enable whole other dimensions of empowerment, collaboration, learning, research, etc." 141,78398,2020-06-06T12:29:27.035Z,9881,1,7,6,2,0,0,31.4,78394,anon3005461236,anon2197402769,"I will try to clarify what I mean. A piece of code will be the same piece of code regardless of the license attached. In that sense they differ nothing. The practical implications anon2696444391ever of attaching a good license which enforces access to the code (osi licenses) brings good things which are of values not inherited by the code itself. E.g. the code will not be 'better' in any way just because it's open source or not. anon2633124927 Stallman hacked intentionally the anglosaxian copyright law to codify ethics into licenses attached by open source programmers. The consequences are that these values (freedom, collaboration, empowerment, knowledge) are enforced even if you don't think they serve your business model." 142,78412,2020-06-07T08:17:19.000Z,9881,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,78398,anon2197402769,anon3005461236,"Yes, what the code ""does"" (the ""result"" of the code) does not differ. However, ""practical implications"" are there for the empowered user, who uses the code (and/or other parts of the system, translation files etc) itself, whereas other users might just use the result of the code, which calculates the same independent of its license." 143,89025,2020-12-15T20:30:35.485Z,9881,0,5,4,1,0,0,36.0,53347,anon3214242932,anon3005461236,"Isn't there the aspect that the quality of code usually is better with open source due to ""many eyes"" inspecting it? I see posts in different contexts online every now and then about open source code being beautifully written, minimalistic and trimmed in contrast to proprietary code projects in different places being accused of being buggy, big and bloated. But a line of code is the same line of code and has the same practicality of course regardless of license, except, as you wrote, that there are other practical benefits of the open source code. Hope I'm adding anything of value." 1,67846,2019-12-21T15:32:10.105Z,12239,0,20,19,26,0,0,241.0,67846,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"***On the 1st of December* in the morning, about 30 people came together to hear and discuss about [Cooperation at Scale](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/cooperation-at-scale-next-generation-collective-intelligence-and-internet/11989). I organized the event with the support of DigitYser (@anon3093654461 @anon3645153774), community members (@anon3747875924) and Edgeryders (@anon1753543892 @anon3828707713). And people registered to the event via [Eventbrite](http://tiny.cc/cooperate).** The event was live-streamed and also [recorded](https://youtu.be/8ZU1qfqe9XQ). We also had the pleasure to have short video-interviews with the speakers: one interview was with [Michel Bauwens](https://youtu.be/YWFQPuHBzw8) and another one with [Liliana Carrillo, Dick Van Gelder, and Anna Melenchuk](https://youtu.be/YEIKrItTipQ) And I am personally happy to have a [promotional video](https://youtu.be/9gTV-2lDNyU) for coming events. __________ After the event, I have wanted to keep the conversation on going, and I have sent an eventbrite message to the participants and speakers to invite them to share their thoughts and feelings about the event. Via this post, I want to become the example. By sharing my thoughts and feelings about the 'Cooperation at Scale' event in Brussels, I hope that others (participants and speakers) get inspired and find the courage and time to also share their thoughts and feelings and in this way **augment our Collective Intelligence!** :slight_smile: ___ Here we go, questions and answers: **Tell us about yourself. What are you working on, and why were you at the event ‘Cooperation at Scale’?** I organized this event and attended it because I am passionate about Collective Intelligence, and cooperation is one of the branches of it. At the moment I work as a freelancer, a digital/social entrepreneur and a researcher focus on Collective Intelligence matters: coordination (adhoc communities, coordinating collective actions), cooperation (networks of trust, open source software, peer-to-peer business) and Cognition (market judgment, predictions of future events in politics/technology). **What was the key question you came to the event with?** My key question was/is: Are we aware of anon2696444391 competition is embedded in our systems (educational, social, financial,...)? What do we need to change to create a more collaborative world? Can we change our mindset from competition to collaboration? **What did you expect to learn from this event?** I wanted to hear about the commons, peer-to-peer cooperation, and technologies than can support this to scale, as Holochain. Also, I felt curious to hear about intellectual property that supports collaboration, and where people feel safe to share knowledge and ideas. And, I was very motivated to learn from the participants and their projects, connect with others around the topic of Cooperation at Scale, and the next generation internet that supports this to happen. **Did you learn what you expected? Have you heard something new? Something that you liked? disliked?** I learned about a lot of new things but nothing really in deep. I need to do more self-study and attend more events, and also organize more events. ***Interesting things I learned from some participants:*** I heard about new projects and initiatives. For example, @anon3513303872 organizes meetups on the topic of [Digital Human Rights](https://www.meetup.com/Digital-Human-Rights-Belgium) and via his page, he also shares about other interesting events related to data ownership, digital rights, human rights, digital twins. From Kris, I heard about the [CommonsStack](https://commonsstack.org/) initiative, and I would like to hear more about it. And, I wish to have heard more from other participants, and to connect in general more. For a next time, I will add some active moments to connect, for example at the beginning of the event we could have introduced ourselves, or during the event there could have been a moment for a fishbowl activity to exchange knowledge and learn from the participants. But for now, I hope that I can hear more about the participants via email or via this platform as I wish to connect more with everyone who attended the event. ***Interesting things I learned from the speakers:*** *From myself -* I enjoyed sharing why I organized the event, and my main interest on collective intelligence, and also on democracy, and anon2696444391 technologies can allow us to cooperate in real time globally, something that is impossible to do in real life on one physical location, a question of scalability, viability. *From Michel Bauwens -* His talk inspired me a lot as I heard of cities like Ghent with transition platforms '[Gent en Garde](https://gentengarde.stad.gent/)' around common management of food strategies and local policies. His talk also triggered me to study new technologies, and compare them, and also to be more critical about them. I was intrigued to hear that blockchain technologies are based on competitive games, not on cooperative ones, and that they tend to create ecosystems based on extraction. I definitely want to learn more about it and do my own research on this. *From Anna Melenchuck -* I liked to hear about governance initiatives that are connecting citizens and governments in an easier way. For example the [EU lobby bot](http://eu-lobby-bot.cheeezer.com/?fbclid=IwAR0jipi7R9UKMMNTwSBCW6Yn-mAIh7Mxp3JpIfmP0cF8p2rR8szGXJqkY2A#connect-with-mp) and [E-Women platform](http://e-women.instingov.org/) developed at the [Institute of Innovative Governance](https://instingov.org/) and [European Digital Development Alliance](http://europeandigital.org/). *From the Panel on Intellectual Property -* I was surprised and also confused to hear that we all have the right to copy. It was curious to hear the different approaches to copying, for example copy-right, copy-left, copy-fare, creative commons and other kids of licences. I heard that patents are very expensive and that they are someanon2696444391 also 'stopping/blocking' innovation for about 20 years from the time of issuing. I learned that basically if we don't go for patents we have to compete and be very fast in the market to sanon2696444391 that we are the first to innovate. I liked hearing about copy-fare and anon2696444391 we could feel safe to share our knowledge and even get financially compensated when someone uses the knowledge in a commercial way. For me, it was interesting to hear that [CreaFree](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9-bYkGzd2s) is working on this. There are some aspects I did not like from the panel. I have to say that I found it a bit messy, and there is room for improvement. For a next time, I will support the panelists to have more regular calls before the panel, and get better connected with the moderator. At this event, the moderator had a preference for free sharing of knowledge and was fully against copyright, and I found his attitude towards some of the panelist a bit disrespectful, as some of the panelist were lawyers with knowledge about patents and copyright. I am not sure if others experienced the panel like that, or if this was my own impression. It would be interesting to hear the experience of others related to the panel. *From Raphi See -* I liked to hear a bit about [Holochain](https://holochain.org/) and its ecosystem of projects and ventures, even though time was not enough to hear in deep about Holochain. I heard that this technology can support us to get organized in different and varied ways and I am curious to learn more about it. Raphi mentioned about some of the projects/ventures in the Holochain ecosystem: [Holo](https://holo.host/), [Junto](https://junto.foundation/), [humm](https://humm.earth/), [sacred capital](https://www.sacred.capital/), [AllianceBlock](https://allianceblock.io/), [orion](https://orionprotocol.io/). And, we got invited to join the [Holochain forum](https://forum.holochain.org/) and get over there to learn more about the project, as well as follow the [tutorials](https://developer.holochain.org/docs/) prepared by the team. **What was the key takeaway from the day?** Cooperation is possible and there are many initiatives contributing to this, but... there is still a lot of work to do to create a global cooperative/collaborative system. Initiatives are too fragmented, and there is a need to build bridges among them, connect different actors. **What would you like to learn more in deep at the next event?** Wow! I love learning! and I would like to learn a lot more about all the initiatives working towards cooperation/collaboration at scale: social, digital, economics, infrastructure, policy,... Step by step, I will personally contribute to this by organizing events to sanon2696444391 several of the initiatives that I know, and I hope to contribute to build bridges, and connections among the initiatives. Probably, the next event that I will organize will be focus on Holochain and its ecosystem. And then the next one will be about 'anon1443855569-to-anon1443855569 and the Commons'. I wonder what others would like to hear next to start planning the events... :slight_smile: **What do I see as the single largest challenge for cooperation at scale?** Fragmentation of initiatives. We need to build bridges. **What single thing would you want to see that supports you to cooperate/collaborate more with others?** Systemic change at economic level as the current system is based on competition. **What would be your message to others who did not attend this event?** If you have landed to this page, probably you are already interested on cooperation/collaboration at scale, and probably you know about initiatives that are contributing to this. Please leave your comment on this page, and share your knowledge. **Let's augment our collective intelligence!**" 1,66321,2019-11-29T12:55:42.375Z,12006,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,66321,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"**If we want to shape the common sense five or ten years from now what will be considered relevant?** Technology leads to bad or good results: Principle of social justice Amartya Sen’s principle of substantial freedom, a sustainable substantial freedom. We need to have capacity/capability to live the life we want As worker, I want it to help me to avoid discrimination in subjective interviews, but not to be used to have AI discriminating against me because of previous behavior of “my” group My freedom should be enhanced Putting on the table simple methodology that allows us to understand the just and the unjust This kind of principle is not the one we take out, it’s a methodology, an open-ended principle - it can be filled with content, case by case only through the participatory mechanism. Different subjective values of different contexts can lead to conflict- case by case through participatory processes is the solution - not just regulation We slowly develop what we consider to be just **What will general principles about what we consider good or bad look like or work in practice?** **What is something you are struggling with? What is out there to make our own biases less visible to the algorithms?** **How can we get emotionally engaged into the ai discussion? What do you want to push against? Where are injustices related coming out of this?** Use of AI in judicial and social welfare, like in housing projects who gets a house, based on an algorithm. But people need to have someone recognize them as a human people, But we aren’t recognized as human beings anymore, discrimination grows because the human to human contact is no longer there. But the problem is that is that there are sooo many more things happening that are not implicit. The way labor was exploited in capitalism, enormous change happened. But now this is being copied again. But it isn’t causing an enormous reaction. The unions are weak. Credit for a household going to banks. Information about our behaviour. Families are asked a high rate, the reduction of social justice. Where does the right-wing voter come from? There is a big job of just making clear what is happening. What happened in the State was evident, but here we lack information, children should understand. We need to: Educate, anon2696444391 for bad and for good it can used Judiciary needs to be brought into the game We need to bring back people’s wellbeing into it. It isn’t necessarily about tech, it’s about people. The solution isn’t marketization. **in terms of mobilization and justice, perception of the actions and reactions of justice. We’ve seen the same thing playing out in different places for different reasons. Obvious injustice - the link between the situation and the AI land where this is scaled up. What happens when it scales up?** labor, women, kids, citizens, consumers. It can react to a machine, but it is also a reaction to social issues, national bargaining in negotiation of algorithms. People are coming together against the gig economy. The platform is private, its proprietary, they are angry. They know there is misuse. In the US, if you read the amount of literature by women on gender, there’s an abundance, but within the EU this is not the case. With regards to kids’ privacy, their are flashes of anger, but no movements. With users of mobility services, there is some action from citizens. For example in Milan they are now trying to launch a platform for mobility. On anger, you always have to have a structure. Otherwise it may be used by the wrong people or die out. Social justice: is this algorithm being used to enhance or reduce the capabilities of humans. On all the different fields. Putting the structure on the anger. You need to turn it into a request. We’re not talking enough about the consequences. I personally do not feel threatened to automation, but many people are. I don’t believe in any of the numbers that go about. What is really happening is the quality of jobs with reflection on people’s lives, relations, the capacity of algorithms…people are being told one day to another if they will work. This is killing their lives. The unions - representing labor, have a reason to mobilize people. If you are looking for a bomb shell I would study them more, the role of people like us. The unions are not equipped these days, we were told they are not necessary anymore, sometimes conservative. I would invest in capacitation of the union. it’s like the amazon example, they weren’t unionized, but they protested and had demands and got them, and unionized after. But I am stressing that labor is a large area where things come along. **Why are we putting the wellbeing of people behind proprietary systems?** **If actors say they need algorithms: why?** **What are the reasons people are unable to act upon algorithmic issues in society?** **Where is the space in which humans can have agency?** The three steps: let them pay taxes; mobility of capital We are discussing this within these constraints, because we can’t change the whole world, but if there’s some solidarity between the unions — organised labor, if we can give them higher capacity, and then they won’t let them be abused, it is doable. They are very weak technological speaking, there is no negotiation anymore. **We have a lot of things like roads with are public, you can’t make a private road and make it public. But for some reason, we don’t have the same idea about data, and why not?** if you perceive the data is being used out of control then you are boycotting it. The results of systematic mistakes, decisions have been taken by the private corporations and when the public sector is using them it is doing for its own purposes. Talking about the problem that is not in algorithm but our pressure is taken out of context, the common discourse has taken the public sector out. Even the illusion of internet as being something out of the control of the state. The state has been wrongly used. Even in the education - the teachers in Italy weren’t given explanations why they are being placed somewhere. But this is not because of the data. The algorithm was badly used. **Why are we buying into these systems and who hold the power?** *his own notes from the event:* In order to move ahead and to make the most of all ideas and human resources working these days on AI, we need both to understand where potential mobilization is taking place or it might take place, and to have a conceptual framework to move ahead. * Since AI can produce either bad effects (harm) or good effects … the appropriate conceptual framework should offer a definition of bad/good so as to * assess current uses of AI, * mobilize people both “against” bad uses and “for” good uses” * design, experiment and revise alternative “good” uses * Sen’s concept of Substantial Freedom (A Theory of Justice) is a choice: the capability approach, where we consider “good” all moves/actions that improve the capacity/capability of every person to do what considers valuable (not futile capacities, but central to one’s life: dignity, learning, health, freedom to move, human relations, …) * This approach does not incapsulate what is “bad” or “harmful” in a rigid box, but it calls for a participatory/societal assessment of anon2696444391 the general principle should be implemented, an assessment that can be continuously updated through public debate * Not so new: it was used by lawyers in the corporate assessment of “just”/”unjust” fiduciary duties and business judgement rule in the US * Which reminds us that the participatory process/platforms can be of different kinds: * In the judiciary * In working councils * In town councils a la Barcelona * Mixing dialogical/analogical debate Which are the potential ACTORS of mobilization? * **Organised Labour** : automation, bad jobs, gig economy, low wages * Women: AI machism * Kids: sexual abuses, porno * Citizens: mobility * Citizens: health … a dimension of life where people are becoming awareof bad uses (insurance, use of DNA) Therefore, one should move forward according to the following sequence: * Identify, country by country or even places by places, where people’s concern on bad uses (or on forgone good uses) is high and there it is being organised: i.e. where there is a potential demand for “competence support”, both at conceptual and technological level * Concentrate on these contexts and provide them with the conceptual framework * Turn the “pars destruens” into a “pars costruens” * Building at EU level a network that allows horizontal comparison for the same issues both of threats, actions and results * Ensuring at EU level the availability of a competence centre that deals (not necessarily solve, but ai least identify and tackles) with the meta-obstacles preventing the implementation or curtailing the survival of“good” uses. Complementary activities that emerged from debate: * Following the “substantial freedom” framework a **code of behaviour** should be established and monitored, by which all categories playing a role in developing algorithms - scientists developing Algorithms, politicians supporting/calling for their use, public and private administrators using them - should ask themselves: **What is the effect on the capabilities of people effected by the algorithms?** * Analogic/dialogic …. Online/Offline **Experimenting platforms** combining the two is a priority. In particular, it should be a practice for public administrations and politicians to create dialogic platforms where the above code of behaviour is checked. * Education/sensibilization on the implementation of the above conceptual framework in order to identify good/bad uses is a priority. It should first of all engage kids from a very early age: a new saga of cautionary tales … would help." 1,71689,2020-03-18T18:36:12.025Z,12883,0,24,23,136,0,0,746.8,71689,anon3379761435,anon3379761435," The Sci-Fi Economics Lab is getting involved in a EIT Climate-KIC programme called *Deep Demonstration on Long-Termism*. Our specific interest in there is looking at anon2696444391 to embed long-term considerations into economic thinking. The DDLT team is preparing a webinar, and has asked participants for an element of inspiration. We have chosen an experience from Sicily, that the Edgeryders board visited only a few weeks ago. I present it below, in the format we are using for the webinar. Quotes are taken from my notes from the presentation they gave us. ## What? A cluster of companies (many of which co-operatives), non-profits, research and art organizations, co-ordinated by Fondazione di Comunità Messina (http://www.fdcmessina.org, henceforth FCM). This cluster consists of 120 local enterprises, employing some 400 people, created or consolidated in the last 20 years in or near the city of Messina, in Sicily. ## Who and what is involved? Who are the key players? Dynamics? The process was initiated in 1998 by a group of local people led by a physicist; they started by creating a research centre called EcosMed. EcosMed took on the mantle of championing a specific vision for local development, and over time managed to get several other enterprises up and running and working together as a cluster (see below). In 2010, they leveraged a European policy (green certificates for producing renewable energy) and a national/regional one (a large foundation called Fondazione con il Sud was doubling capital to any Fondazione di Comunità being constituted in Italy’s Mezzogiorno) to create FCM as a superstructure. FCM also has institutional partners, like business associations and a cooperative bank called Banca Etica. FCM used its capital to give solar panels to whoever wanted them: they created a “people’s energy company” and installed 2MW of photovoltaic capacity. The green certificates made sure that FCM could then count on 20 years of subsidies; it thus transformed a pile of dead money into a stable revenue stream. ## Why is this interesting? What is the edge of the approach? From an economic point of view, the cluster made three moves which contain the seeds of long-termism. 1. **Relational goods**. Some goods store value because they encode relationships. Example: several world-famous artists in the Mediterranean area donated pieces to Fondazione Horcynus Orca, the cluster’s main art org. In fact, FHO runs a contemporary art museum that never bought any piece, everything was donated or produced in-house via artist residencies. This collection is worth several millions, but of course FHO could not really sell it except in very dire circumstances. Instead, they leverage it to attract private donors. Other example: Messina had a local brewery, Birrificio di Messina. This was purchased by Heineken, that ended up closing the plant and relocating production, keeping the brand. FCM persuaded the laid-off workers to start a cooperative to make a new brewery, and attracted a 6M EUR investment. 700 people attended the brewery’s grandopening, because > the beer tastes very good, but it also carries the values of dignity, community resurrection and human development to purchasers. The new company was already turning a profit in its first year. 2. **Stocks over flows**. The creation of FCM marked a shift from producing income (a flow) to fund Messina’s social and civic transformation to securing the capital (various stocks) that generate that income. The difference is resilience: if you are sitting on your own stocks, you are not at the mercy of short-term changes in market conditions (or, worse, funding landscapes), and you have the breathing space to plan countermoves when difficulties strike. 3. **A system, not a network**. > In a network, participants look for anon2696444391 to make the most of what others are doing. In a system, participants are willing to re-orient their work, so as to better work with the other participants. If you are a construction company, you must not be lazy, and be open to using new technologies. If you are a social cooperative, you must look away from providing standardized services to customizing what you do in order to better valorize the capabilities of the people they are assisting. And so on. ## Questions it sparks? **What does this make you want to learn more about?** How do you get from zero to a fully formed cluster? The Messina fledgling cluster survived 12 years before FCM was launched, “with great difficulty”. Can you imagine a similar approach for larger territories? What would it look like? ## Assumptions? **What assumptions are underlying the logic of X? How do they see the world? What does it mean for systems transformation?** > We believe that there is a correlation between the environmental crisis and inequality. We are seeing: irreversibilities in the environmental crisis and so much inequality that it is even stifling traditional economic development. Some systems are imbalanced. > > One is this: starting in 1970, the speed of technological advancement is such that communities cannot build, around them, an appropriate culture and ethics in managing them. This creates collective stress in local communities. They are, anon2696444391ever, marginalized from them, because technology’s governance happens at, and for, the global scale. > > Another: as we know, our civilization is not sustainable as far as the consumption of resources is concerned. > > And a third: financial power is more and more global, democratic systems have stayed local and are displaced. > > Given this context, our foundation is experimenting on new paradigms for governance, the economy etc. Our key concept is that of limit. Our key resource is what we call human development. This happens by interlinking closely the productive, cultural and welfare systems. To do that, we bring to bear the territory's capabilities. Part of this is talent attraction. > > More specifically, we are experimenting with models that constrain the logic of profit maximization. The constraints: > > 1. Expand freedom, especially that of the weakest > 2. Build social capital > 3. Protect ecosystems > 4. Supply beauty.” ## Learnings? The Messina experience is very rich. We are trying to establish a strategic partnership with them, but that has slowed because of COVID-19. One fairly obvious learning: to act effectively, change permanently the incentives to which players on the ground. >Our foundation provides economic resources to this territory, But it never funds projects: it funds permanent policies. Its pillars: > >1. Promote cooperative social and economic systems, which are very biodiverse. They have culture, finance, scientific research etc. These systems need to be able to promote alternatives in the areas of working, housing, socializing and learning. > 2. Reinterpret welfare towards personalized paths actively supporting each beneficiary in recognizing the alternatives generated by the system, and thus increase its freedom.” ## Link to our Deep Demonstration **How does X relate to our areas of action? What new areas of exploration might this open? What area of exploration is this part of?** Different components of the cluster address different AoAs. For example, FCM itself is about resetting the rules of the game through policy. FHO more about spinning new narratives, with the mystique of the Mediterranean as a koiné of commerce, knowledge and peace. ECOSMED took the lead on reforming notions of value. We submit that the Messina cluster *is* a deep demonstration of long-termism. It is a micro-economy that thinks very long-term, and is able to survive, and even thrive, in a context of alien, even hostile macro-systems." 1,66313,2019-11-29T12:09:09.276Z,12002,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,66313,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"**The EU’s new Commission is looking to approve a new AI directive, and of course democratic participation is important to ensure a good law. What do you feel necessary from EU to participate?** I’m a bit skeptical that legislation is the right instrument to do this kind of things. It’s a blunt instrument, because as of now there is no good understanding of the process from the ethical values (fairly easy to encode in a directive) to the actual technical choices of the scientists and engineers building AI systems. Ex. we like the New Zealand group developing Scuttlebutt: when users asked for cross-device accounts, the core developer replied “I’m not doing that, because we want to serve underprivileged people, and these people do not have multiple devices”. What he was doing was justifying his technical choices in terms of his values. As a socio-technical culture, we are not good at that. **What is “investment in AI”? What should the EU do practically?** climate + competition policy = nobody is allowed to grow to much. What is “empowering”? I suspect that AI (ML applied on big data) is inherently NOT human-centric, because its models (for example a recommendation algo) encode each human into a database, and then models you in terms of who you are similar to: for example, a woman between 35 and 45 who speaks Dutch and watches stand-up comedy on Netflix. Everything not standardizable, everything that makes you you, gets pushed to the error term of the model. That is hardly human-centric, because it leads to optimizing systems in terms of abstract “typical humans” or “target groups” or whatever. **Can we think of counterproductive regulation on the Internet? Stuff like the copyright directive? anon2696444391 did we end up with all these things, that used to be a public good, end up being someone’s property?** in Helsinki everybody agreed that you can’t sell your data. **Do we actually need AI? Why are we pushing for AI?** **Where do we bring the democratic process into new models?**" 1,66314,2019-11-29T12:10:02.582Z,12003,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,66314,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"**The EU’s new Commission is looking to approve a new AI directive, and of course democratic participation is important to ensure a good law. What do you feel necessary from EU to participate?** Human centered internet is not defined, that’s why you can’t find a solution. “Human” is literally anyone. **Can we think of counterproductive regulation on the Internet? Stuff like the copyright directive? anon2696444391 did we end up with all these things, that used to be a public good, end up being someone’s property?** I agree with the antitrust principle. What we consider AI is machine learning, this is the root of our problems, it’s just classical statistics. You create the illusion that value production is shifted to the generation…. ex. if the doctor establish a relation with the patient, the AI has not to invade the relation, but now the doctor has to take notes and patient see less value in it (you look somewhere else and you are centralised…). Airport before and after Ryanair: before architecture were associated to functions and your experience of travels, room for different functions. Now with the low cost you consider that the experience is less valuable, now is a shopping mall and at the gate it’s temporarily informations about space. medicine is not diagnosis, but prognosis-based. In medicine, nothing has value if I cannot improve your life. A patient can and should negotiate with the doctor where to go from here; he or she even has a right to die. This is a very poor fit for anon2696444391 ML-on-big-data works. **Do we actually need AI? Why are we pushing for AI?** I just read a review of 37,000 studies of AI in medicine. Of these, only about 100 had enough information on training datasets to do a meta-analysis on. Of these, 24 claimed prospective design (the algorithm had been trained without knowing the real data); of these zero had actually done prospective design. … I don’t know any real medical problem that prospective AI model can solve. **Where do we bring the democratic process into new models?**" 1,66315,2019-11-29T12:10:58.672Z,12004,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,66315,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"**The EU’s new Commission is looking to approve a new AI directive, and of course democratic participation is important to ensure a good law. What do you feel necessary from EU to participate?** Why are we pushing for AI? The end of Moore’s law. The money we seek in are more unlike to come back. Industry took a risk at specialised chips: AI and blockchain-specific. So, now they need to create a demand for these chips. We should be aware of the vendor-driven nature of this stuff, and think about anon2696444391 to regulate these companies. The business model of Big Tech now is based on keeping the code, providing cloud services and collecting data to profile and ultimately influence users. They cross-subsidize their cloud services with their marketing revenue streams. If you want to fight that, you should have public cloud infrastructure, which is a trillion-EUR affair. That’s your investment in human-centric AI infrastructure. Companies like Google optimise with AI the profilazione of their customers. The difference is if it’s a data centered AI or not. … ? Where do we bring the democratic process into new models? **Can we think of counterproductive regulation on the Internet? Stuff like the copyright directive? anon2696444391 did we end up with all these things, that used to be a public good, end up being someone’s property?** We optimize relationships. This is problematic. For example, we have marketing companies working with civil liberties organizations, that tell their clients: we can tell you which of your donors care about which issues, so you can optimize for issues where you get more money. Optimisation has been the logic as far, but it can go wrong anyway. Traffic is a perfect example. If you look at optimization system, it comes at a cost and if you don’t do internalise the cost it causes bigger damages. Apparently innocent choices as what to optimize for turn out to have huge consequences. When you design traffic, do you optimize for driver safety? Or for pedestrian safety? Of minimize time spent on the road? SEDA on feedbacks: I know GDPR, it’s regulated anyway. There are serious problems on anon2696444391 GDPR focuses on personal data on individuals. We talk about automated decisions, but there is a set of criteria … the optimization is not about the single person, but as pbe part of a certain group which operates certain choices in general. So, you expect to empower people, but actually you don’t. Paul Olivier Dehaye is trying to pool data from different workers to see if people are being discriminated. This is called a “data trust”. There is also the DECODE project that is doing something they called “data commons”. We are now in a mess with the GDPR. Uber, for example, uses it to refuse to give drivers their data, saying this impacts the rights of the riders. This (says Seda) is the consequence of focusing on personal rights when the data are used to optimize over populations. **Do we actually need AI? Why are we pushing for AI?** **Where do we bring the democratic process into new models?**" 1,66317,2019-11-29T12:11:41.963Z,12005,0,3,2,1,0,0,5.6,66317,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"Rob **The EU’s new Commission is looking to approve a new AI directive, and of course democratic participation is important to ensure a good law. What do you feel necessary from EU to participate?** In Belgium there is a company called It’sMe, who does online identity. They are pushing their data onto Azure, making it GDPR and EIDAS compliant. That changed my thinking, because it sanon2696444391ed me as even these sterling silver pieces of European thinking ends up in the Silicon Valley cloud. We need to break the number-person relationship: when you get born, you receive a number from the state, and the game’s up. I dream of disposable identities, that we set up with the purpose of entering into a relationship, like for example receiving a service. A good analogy is one-time email addresses: you get an email address, you sign up to some online service with it, use it ONCE to receive the email to confirm you do control that email, and then it self destructs. **What should the EU do practically?** Governance instead of government. Here’s my take: the kind of society you are looking at is anarcho-communist. The communist part is that infrastructure is fully centralized, like in the 30 glorieuse. Anything that runs onto the infrastructure is fully permissionless. That’s the anarchist part. And finally, the data stays with the people. **Can we think of counterproductive regulation on the Internet? Stuff like the copyright directive? anon2696444391 did we end up with all these things, that used to be a public good, end up being someone’s property?** internet changes the ratio of power. We behave like we are in the pre-internet era, because internet is a new technology and it takes longer for us to change behaviours. **do we actually need AI? Why are we pushing for AI?** **Where do we bring the democratic process into new models?**" 1,66322,2019-11-29T12:57:11.563Z,12007,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,66322,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"**If we want to shape the common sense five or ten years from now what will be considered relevant?** **What will general principles about what we consider good or bad look like or work in practice?** I look at automation and documentation at violence registration, do universities offer support system in trauma informed interface, your claim will go through it, run it through all other cases, and then match it with all the other cases… I have problems explaining the problems these problems have. What these systems are doing, they are trying to categorize our experience of misconduct in binary options. You have to have a clear definition of rape otherwise it doesn’t fit in the system People are shoe-horned into particular categories, but this doesn’t speak to the richness of the experience you have had. With criminal justice we see anon2696444391 people are categorized. Wider categories of human improvement are not classified. This is where the question of civil society is very important, its difficult to understand anon2696444391 AI makes decisions, categorizes us, and we can’t anticipated. We don’t even know where the data comes from and who it is being sold to. People don’t have the tech literacy to question this. Should citizens have this knowledge? What harm is and what freedom can be? **What is something you are struggling with? What is out there to make our own biases less visible to the algorithms?** It is really easy to respond to this, oh, maybe if I only share part, than that could be a meaningful intervention. Sometimes it can be. Mozilla for example has add ons. We can do that individually. But maybe the scope of our change should go beyond individual actions. Content moderation in books by Mary Gray or Sarah Roberts - tracking the work on anon2696444391 tech companies more their content moderation work to India for example, the workers are paid at the low rate and required to impose western standards on what the behaviour on social media should look like. The norms are being translated by the economic models of the platforms The scale is so much bigger than us. What are some of the lessons that the civil society has done in the past looking at the ways we can translate this **How can we get emotionally engaged into the ai discussion? What do you want to push against? Where are injustices related coming out of this?** a group in LA - Stop LAPD surveillance, automating inequality, ranging from criminal justice, homelessnes…to uncover the ways in which algorithms are used for surveillance. People got together to demand that the police releases surveillance policies. They were able to uncover the full scope, pushing back against the LAPD. Intervention takes a long time and needs a lot of work. **in terms of mobilization and justice, perception of the actions and reactions of justice. We’ve seen the same thing playing out in different places for different reasons. Obvious injustice - the link between the situation and the AI land where this is scaled up. What happens when it scales up?** **Why are we putting the wellbeing of people behind proprietary systems?** There’s an example of care in the states, where due to an algorithm peoples care was reduced from 8 to 4 hours. But they didn;t want to explain anon2696444391 the system worked. But they were violating the rights of these people. Another state in the US: employment benefits - combining two different data sets, the system wasn’t able to sync the system together so people weren’t able to receive unemployment benefits. Companies will always hide behind the trade secrecy, but why the state considers this should be above human rights? **If actors say they need algorithms: why?** **What are the reasons people are unable to act upon algorithmic issues in society?** **Where is the space in which humans can have agency?** we need to ask different questions, we need to ask a fundamental question: why are we buying into these systems and who hold the powers. Individual agency is extremely limited, so we need to look collectively at taking action. There is not going to be a single collective that will resolve this. **We have a lot of things like roads with are public, you can’t make a private road and make it public. But for some reason, we don’t have the same idea about data, and why not?**" 1,66323,2019-11-29T12:58:39.921Z,12008,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,66323,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"**If we want to shape the common sense five or ten years from now what will be considered relevant?** I’m more into that if we know what is wrong anon2696444391 we can mobilize people and now we are about what is the thing that we are mobilizing about. A lot of the time when people are faced with systematic conversation or binary boxing in for example: Employment models aren’t working, you can’t break out of those and you have to work with others these new ideas to making it work. You can only break through these models and narratives by working together and creating new narratives. When we know what we want to do and where to go, we can create a new future, something completely different from what the AI is predicting perhaps. Thus create the space that is more free. Participatory art - the art that throws away the separation between art and the spectator. Because of the consumerist society…the point is not to create “great art” but great transformative experience together with other people. Example of the Borderland. They come into this world, change the mindset, lots of the traditional concepts start to break. Creating completely new reality. Tackling the imposed machine. There is something there but don’t know what. **What will general principles about what we consider good or bad look like or work in practice?** **What is something you are struggling with? What is out there to make our own biases less visible to the algorithms?** **How can we get emotionally engaged into the ai discussion? What do you want to push against? Where are injustices related coming out of this?** maybe five years ago FB opened its graph and it opened up FBs capabilities. I was having a blast with it, was a party trick for me. This is what cambridge analytica used. We were able to be coming our own CIA’s. It’s not only does it give us more capability, but what do we use these capabilities for. Maybe some have too much responsibilities with it? the problem here is that all of this data exists and all of it sudden was opened. It is important to distinguish it was just the side effect. **in terms of mobilization and justice, perception of the actions and reactions of justice. We’ve seen the same thing playing out in different places for different reasons. Obvious injustice - the link between the situation and the AI land where this is scaled up. What happens when it scales up?** in Lebanon and Morocco - riots over something related to the AI. in one case taxing, banning of whatsapp. Because of income? Maybe. But whatsapp also introduced the signal protocol. What it took for people to go to the streets and protest against government was for their rights to be removed (those they didn’t have a few years back). People have abilities, and people are upset, we have network systems, if people would map out all the uber drivers ad ping them, they will do something. **Why are we putting the wellbeing of people behind proprietary systems?** **If actors say they need algorithms: why?** AI gives advice to human, and human pulls the trigger. Just because we put a human in the middle, the decision won’t be better. We are terrified of being held responsible for the wrong decisions,. So great there is this computer system that is helping us make them, wonderful. **What are the reasons people are unable to act upon algorithmic issues in society?** **Where is the space in which humans can have agency?** something as vague as my data became very big, most people understand there is something about data we should care about. We only need this data once, which later becomes governed by something different. The algorithm becomes irrevocable. How do you challenge that? Even if you own your data people will sell it. **We have a lot of things like roads with are public, you can’t make a private road and make it public. But for some reason, we don’t have the same idea about data, and why not?** are we not being radical enough? If we put a censor anywhere out in a place, including a car, and that data MUST be completely public. If we make these legislations we are from Sweden, no minimum wage, negotiation between unions, but at some point the legislation was put in place which allowed them to lower that power. We have to make sure that at the EU level these companies can act in this way. We need to find out what those things are. gender has become more visible in the last ten years because the perception changed. The oppression that comes with capital is something that became visible with the social movement. Things can be made visible. **Why are we buying into these systems and who hold the power?**" 1,66325,2019-11-29T12:59:50.250Z,12009,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,66325,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"**If we want to shape the common sense five or ten years from now what will be considered relevant?** **What will general principles about what we consider good or bad look like or work in practice?** **What is something you are struggling with? What is out there to make our own biases less visible to the algorithms?** The individual needs vs individual capabilities, and the collective needs and capacities. One person may be fooled by a system, like cambridge analytica. Elections, Cambridge analytica, Facebook Algorithms like Facebook are pulling us into a certain bias. Gathering data and classifying a person based on a lot of data around. If I am moved from one reality to another, the categorization of me is probably not the same. Even in a certain culture. Behaviour and constant interaction influenced by culture. If myself am less biased the algorithms are less likely to classify me. How conscious I am myself about my own bias. **How can we get emotionally engaged into the ai discussion? What do you want to push against? Where are injustices related coming out of this?** the problem isn’t the algorithm, We have a tool: like a knife, it can be used for cooking in the kitchen or killing someone. Same with algorithms. Algorithms and the engineers cost a lot of money. we have image recognition, we can create images, so if an algorithm is able to shape — it is possible and that is scary for em as a parents **in terms of mobilization and justice, perception of the actions and reactions of justice. We’ve seen the same thing playing out in different places for different reasons. Obvious injustice - the link between the situation and the AI land where this is scaled up. What happens when it scales up?** **Why are we putting the wellbeing of people behind proprietary systems?** **If actors say they need algorithms: why?** **What are the reasons people are unable to act upon algorithmic issues in society? ** **Where is the space in which humans can have agency? ** **We have a lot of things like roads with are public, you can’t make a private road and make it public. But for some reason, we don’t have the same idea about data, and why not?** **Why are we buying into these systems and who hold the power?**" 1,66326,2019-11-29T13:00:48.515Z,12010,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,66326,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"**If we want to shape the common sense five or ten years from now what will be considered relevant?** **What will general principles about what we consider good or bad look like or work in practice?** **What is something you are struggling with? What is out there to make our own biases less visible to the algorithms?** **How can we get emotionally engaged into the ai discussion? What do you want to push against? Where are injustices related coming out of this?** We are not into gaming the system but more protecting. Like with pokemon, it only used to sanon2696444391 in whiter neighborhoods, because of the ingress game which it was founded on, which was only used by early adopters. But people gamed it with gaming their GPS etc. But that shouldn’t be the solution. Things are more effective if they belong to you. And now they don’t I read about this game where you run a zoo, and everybody tried to podify the game, but they always had a few pigs in their zoo they couldn’t sell. in terms of mobilization and justice, perception of the actions and reactions of justice. We’ve seen the same thing playing out in different places for different reasons. Obvious injustice - the link between the situation and the AI land where this is scaled up. What happens when it scales up? **Why are we putting the wellbeing of people behind proprietary systems?** **If actors say they need algorithms: why?** **What are the reasons people are unable to act upon algorithmic issues in society?** **Where is the space in which humans can have agency?** We are trying to understand new systems and optimization of their functions. What happens when the system causes externalities? optimization systems make population wide decisions. Giving a bunch of signals - example of uber (feedback loops, to maximize their profits). The app sensing cars - getting you out of the traffic. Caused problems in smaller streets. The app wasn’t able to change the algorithm, the municipality can’t do anything. The citizens install roadblocks as a solution. Can we build systems to help people against optimization systems. POTs. Facebook matching people to the advertisers - people are subjected to data getting to them regardless of anon2696444391 they interact on the platform. Agency is very limited because it’s about the whole infrastructure. workers at amazon wanted to a strike, but amazon knew and got 200 extra people, so they could continue., After that they created another warehouse, so it couldn’t be disrupted. There are going to be local wins for a bit, but it will take a bit for a larger win. The most of the work in the AI is the migration and race. We shouldn’t go just the labor way. The migrants are getting organized but they don’t have labor unions. **We have a lot of things like roads with are public, you can’t make a private road and make it public. But for some reason, we don’t have the same idea about data, and why not?** **Why are we buying into these systems and who hold the power?**" 1,66327,2019-11-29T13:01:41.412Z,12011,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,66327,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"**If we want to shape the common sense five or ten years from now what will be considered relevant?** People become the owners and agents over their own data. The Great Hack. Fair use, data economy. An ethical data operations on a global scale, with a decentralized system, fair european data economy, we’re currently colonized - europe only has 3% market share Data economy there are 4 models: Lanlard: you’re money is worth up to 20.000 euros (??). Three other models, like in barcelona, NGI calls it decode. They consider data to be common good of a city or community. There are 4 different types of these data economy model Mymobility, own your data. People are not really aware that they can manage their own data. Energy and transportation has the east sensitive data. Inform the civil society and create new business model **What will general principles about what we consider good or bad look like or work in practice?** **What is something you are struggling with? What is out there to make our own biases less visible to the algorithms?** **How can we get emotionally engaged into the ai discussion? What do you want to push against? Where are injustices related coming out of this?** **in terms of mobilization and justice, perception of the actions and reactions of justice. We’ve seen the same thing playing out in different places for different reasons. Obvious injustice - the link between the situation and the AI land where this is scaled up. What happens when it scales up?** **Why are we putting the wellbeing of people behind proprietary systems?** **If actors say they need algorithms: why?** **What are the reasons people are unable to act upon algorithmic issues in society? ** **Where is the space in which humans can have agency? ** **We have a lot of things like roads with are public, you can’t make a private road and make it public. But for some reason, we don’t have the same idea about data, and why not?**" 1,88115,2020-12-03T12:57:49.122Z,15043,1,20,19,48,0,0,309.0,88115,anon3828707713,anon3828707713," > ""*Most of these old businesses are, like Ichiwa, small, family-run enterprises that deal in traditional goods and services. But some are among Japan’s most famous companies, including Nintendo, which got its start making playing cards 131 years ago, and the soy sauce brand Kikkoman, which has been around since 1917.*"" This morning I came across a story about a Japanese Mochi business that supposedly has been operating for 1,020 years https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/02/business/japan-old-companies.html ### It got me thinking about time. ![](https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/8/8437e9984051769f76c0f3c64c2ee057b5c3b69c.png) More specifically anon2696444391 our individual and collective perspectives on time affect our discussions and decisions around technologies in our lives, our work, society, planet... It took me back to a series of [conversations](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/perspective-is-everything-anon2696444391-do-our-individual-perspectives-on-time-affect-our-work-health-and-well-being/3926/8) @anon990011961 @anon294806887 were having in 2014 on anon2696444391 our individual perspectives on time affect our work, health and well-being. We discussed the work of psychologist Prof. Philip Zambardo: His research on the psychology of time perspective focuses on “the ways in which individuals develop temporal orientations that parcel the flow of personal experience into the mental categories, or time zones, of Past, Present, and Future, and also a Transcendental Future (beliefs about a future life after one’s death). He is especially interested in temporal biases in which these learned cognitive categories (Past, Present and Future) are not “balanced” according to situations, contexts and demands, but one or another are utilized excessively or underutilized"". ### Ok so what does this have to do with future of the internet stuff? I'm not sure. Could just be mental chemtrail but it interests me, so I thought I'd share - see if anyone else is interested in playing with it... When it comes to discussions that involve internet ( infrastructure, technologies, businesses etc), I often get a feeling of being stuck in strange now-space where everything is supposed to be moving fast, but is someanon2696444391 not moving at all. I couldn't put my fanon2945747231r on what was bothering me about this till @anon659222949 brought me along to a fascinating lecture at the Long Now foundation by an archeologist who had explored the evolution of the ancient silk road (Hugi can describe it better). Hanging out hung out with archeologists like @anon The choice of what time perspective we adopt by default is not neutral. It encodes a whole set of values. In the discussion around what path Europe should take into the digital future, the choice seems to be between authoritarian surveillance-enabled control (China) or Feral capitalism (US). Perhaps it is rather a time perspective question? Is there a European perspective on time? ### Do feel free to share your own thoughts in a comment below! It's hard to think about this stuff solo..." 2,88122,2020-12-03T13:14:19.522Z,15043,0,18,17,1,1,0,23.6,88115,anon659222949,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:1, topic:15043""] I couldn’t put my fanon2945747231r on what was bothering me about this till @anon659222949 brought me along to a fascinating lecture at the Long Now foundation by an archeologist who had explored the evolution of the ancient silk road (Hugi can describe it better). [/quote] That was a very fruitful seminar indeed! It added a lot of depth to a range of our projects - from the OCI Lab to the Plato Project.
https://youtu.be/LjQzpGkTpHY" 3,88200,2020-12-04T10:42:25.331Z,15043,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,88115,anon990011961,anon3828707713,"@anon3828707713, thanks for the reminder. This kind of conversation doesn't come naturally in our fast-paced time. Thinking about the future always involves some degree of fantasizing. Take the debt crisis - debt is a projection deep into the future. It assumes that the debt holder will still be around, and he will be able to service, etc. All that is a fantasy. Same with the nuclear waste people we have been talking about. At the heart of it, people seek an advantage in the present by outsourcing a problem into the future. We would fare better if we were able to turn this thinking around. I mean, U-turn. Which would be something along the lines of: ""What can I do now, anon2696444391 do I have to behave in the present so that future generations don't have to solve the problems I cause now?"" I read somewhere that many Native American tribes have cultivated this kind of thinking. Here's the 7th generation principle http://7genfoundation.org/7th-generation/" 4,88205,2020-12-04T11:33:45.826Z,15043,1,14,13,1,0,0,42.8,88115,anon990011961,anon3828707713,"@anon3828707713, the other aspect that you describe is the way we FEEL in these times of ""polar inertia"", which Paul Virilio has theorized in many of his works, but what he claims is that our communication technologies reduce distance to zero, which is why the ""instant"" (opposite of distant) is making the concept of past - present - future obsolete, at least it does so in our perception. Time is coupled to space, you travel a distance at a certain speed and there is a duration for that. If the distance is reduced to zero, you - in principle - ""travel"" at maximum speed, that means ""polar inertia""." 5,88206,2020-12-04T11:34:55.564Z,15043,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,88205,anon3828707713,anon990011961,"super interesting, have you seen a visualisation of the concept?" 6,88207,2020-12-04T11:41:01.290Z,15043,0,14,13,1,0,0,37.8,88206,anon990011961,anon3828707713,"start here https://thomasvc.weebly.com/the-digital-habitat/speed-in-the-digital-habitat" 7,88574,2020-12-08T07:30:13.314Z,15043,0,11,10,1,0,0,37.2,88115,anon3554654177,anon3828707713,"An important discussion. On this notion of 'time' it reminded me of the years that I was trying to understand what was going on. and wrote it down as a kind of diary in NOEMA: This unawareness of the artificial, *almost incredible* , character of Techné – the Aristotelian term for technique, skill – is only then broken when it fails us: “Central London was brought to a standstill in the rush hour on July 25 2002 when 800 sets of traffic lights failed at the same time – in effect locking signals on red.” [[5](https://noemalab.eu/ideas/essay/real-rules-of-innovation-for-the-21st-century-part-3/#footnote_4_18054)] Every new set of techniques brings forth its own literacy: The Aristotelian protests against introducing pencil writing, may seem rather incredible now, at the time it meant nothing less than a radical change in the structures of power distribution. Overnight, a system of thought and set of grammar; an oral literacy dependant on a functionality of *internal* information visualization techniques and recall, was made redundant because the techniques could be externalised. Throughout Western civilization the history of memory externalisation runs parallel with the experienced disappearance of its artificial, man made, character. An accidental disappearance, anon2696444391ever much intrinsic to our experience, that up till now has not been deliberate: “The most profound technologies are those that disappear. They weave themselves into the fabric of everyday life until they are indistinguishable from it.” [[6](https://noemalab.eu/ideas/essay/real-rules-of-innovation-for-the-21st-century-part-3/#footnote_5_18054)] https://noemalab.eu/ideas/essay/real-rules-of-innovation-for-the-21st-century-part-3/" 8,88657,2020-12-08T18:56:48.271Z,15043,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,88115,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"Ones that manage nuclear materials have to last. I bet some of the operating systems and code that manage all the components of the nuclear fuel cycle (for power and for weapons) from mining to waste, will set longevity records..should keep some programmers working until old age like you see with the few who still know anon2696444391 to work COBOL and FORTRAN." 9,88682,2020-12-09T08:00:40.775Z,15043,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,88657,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,"I reached out to the Long Now foundation to see if they had any material on the topic as they seem to be thinking about this kind of thing what with that 10,000 year clock etc. Do you think we could do an interview with stewart on the topic?" 10,88733,2020-12-09T16:45:34.362Z,15043,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,88682,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"I cold never predict what he would or would not do. I guess it depends on his schedule and whether or not the subject interests him. He isn't promoting a book right now so he is less available than he would be. He still might do it if it was structured in a way that makes clear anon2696444391 it will go. But I really have no idea. Kevin Kelly might be up for it though." 11,88779,2020-12-10T09:43:04.128Z,15043,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,88733,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,would you be up for testing the waters with Kelly? 12,88826,2020-12-10T17:13:57.412Z,15043,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,88779,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"Give me a clearer, more specific picture of what you have in mind and I will ask him." 13,88827,2020-12-10T17:17:20.447Z,15043,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,88115,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"Here is a product, or ones like it, that I hope won't be around then, but probably will. This gets my vote for scariest new product: the Amazon Halo Band that tells you not just that you are too fat, but criticizes your moods when you speak. Big Brother gets a toe in the door with this kind of thing. https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Halo-Fitness-And-Health-Band/dp/B07QK955LS" 14,88853,2020-12-11T15:40:11.357Z,15043,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,88115,anon1753543892,anon3828707713, 1,61024,2019-10-09T15:04:15.589Z,11075,1,17,16,74,0,0,423.4,61024,anon2619552108,anon2619552108,"Who I am is a tough question, as what is relevant to define us actually changes with context. But to make a long story short, I'm a medical doctor by education and I've practiced at the University hospital in Bologna before. I'm also a researcher interested in formal fundamental questions. So, you could say I would be classified as ""interdisciplinary"" by some. I've been working a lot on mathematics and Information Systems studies, mostly in the context of medical ecosystems. I started at the University of Bologna, I moved very shortly to Portugal and the UK where I had the chance of spending time with wonderful mentors with whom I am still in touch today, and I was a researcher at the University of Maastricht for several years, helping to set up the computational biology research line of the experimental pathology group, among other things. After that I got summoned to CERN in Geneva, to serve as a senior fellow of the Director General for medical applications. In between, I founded the [SCimPulse Foundation](http://www.scimpulse.org/about-us/), which I still direct. I am also part of several scientific organisations and commissions, including (maybe the most relevant about our conversation to come) the working group of NATO for human control over auanon2863106368omous systems. I was connected to the military in the past from the medical side, because of chance encounters, and in reason of the facts the military are extremely active in healthcare and public health. It so happened that Italy was not represented in the mentioned NATO working group, and someone recommended me. W are tasked with reviewing literature, and technology accidents, in order to identify pitfalls and recommend best practices. We discuss the weaknesses of current approaches to regulations, and design recommendations on engineering auanon2863106368omous systems. It's mostly theoretical. We don't have a lab where we can grow our own evil puppets (LOL), and see whether we can train them out of evilness. Despite the group having access to classified material in principle, most of the auanon2863106368omous systems related accidents really happen in the public domain, outside of military context, there where any European citizen could be aware of: reports on events in which artificial intelligence systems — which may have been involved in decisions — did not have the expected outcome are published very often and can involve anything from assisted driving systems all the way to decision support systems in healthcare. Civil society on the other side of the Pond has been extremely prolific lately, producing examples of bias in classification of suspects in police investigations, or involving the exclusion of entire population groups from proper follow-up care, or from access to credit. ## Asking the right questions When you train any machine learning system on a data set, you normally think that you are assigning a task to the machine. In truth this is always slightly different in the sense that the task is encoded in such a way that you award the machine ""gains"" for solving the puzzle through the data that you're giving it. And the machine is actually only trying to get those gains, it is not making any sense of the task. This means that any loopholes in your design will be exploited very efficiently by the machine! When this happens in a gaming context, the researchers react enthusiastically by claiming the machine ""thought outside of the box"", or ""learnt to cheat""... but imagine black people receiving worse follow-up care, because their social context is associated with lower rates of follow-up. Would you be satisfied with a recommender ""guessing"" that being black, or coming from that social context is by itself a predictor of low effectiveness in care practice, thus recommending not to follow-up with your patient? The data is biased because the system is, the AI simply learnt to give you the most rewarding reply, without care for the amplification of bias (because that was never part of the game for it). And what do we, humans, learn from biased data? That it should not be used for classification, that we should use it to focus on pitfalls we want to challenge. So the issue boils down to the following: should we ask ML/AI to guess from the data under which category does a fellow human fall, in striving for efficiency, as to exclude her/him from a certain benefit? Or should we rather try to force the machine to assist us in finding effective (not efficient) ways to include them? Adopting ML/AI today is a bit like a magic trick... but in the sanon2696444391-biz sense, not in the silver-bullet sense. When you go to a magician' sanon2696444391 (say David Copperfield's, I like his art anon2373157426 a lot), he will distract you. And then something else appears in the middle of your supposed attention field that you were not really focusing on. Simply, because you were not paying attention. Similarly, most of the auanon2863106368omous systems applications attract a lot of hype, under the pretence of making something very fast and efficient, and this distract us but what they won't do, and won't let happen. The problem is not whether you could use the data set. Could you curate the data set to make it unbiased? At face value, you could obfuscate the sensitive variables, and claim the dataset has not bias. But virtual variables can be inferred, even if they are not in a database, just like an exercise of missing values imputation. The big F is known to be able to infer data by crossing information between an external ID and the data of her/his contact on the platform... Thus, not... the problem does not lie within the data exclusively, it lies with our intended purpose for them and ML/AI: we're just asking questions that we take at face value as if we were proposing them to a sentient entity that would of course interpret them contextually, and we are forgetting that instead when talking to a machine we should questioning the questions we ask, ourselves, for it. The true bias is that we are using extremely effective cheating systems to multiply what we’re already doing. Instead of asking ourselves anon2696444391 we’re able to improve certain situations. That's the direction where we really want to go, I believe. For example, I find someone burgling in an apartment, and I have to judge — let's imagine I'm a judge — whether this person will re-offend. To me this becomes a very clear problem. Let's imagine a scenario where we all tend to feel strongly there is a need for intervention: a man who is stalking his ex-wife. Of course, we want to prevent him from reoffending. Right? That's without a doubt. Now, as a human, I ask myself: “is he likely to reoffend. How can I prevent it?” ...there might be ideas about temporary restrictions, coupled with therapy and education, and establishing a redline for a certain time window when re-offense might be most likely... But when I ask the same question to a machine, this could be shortcut to simply meaning ""anon2696444391 often does re-offense by this category of person get pursuit?"" and recommend me not the best strategy to prevent re-offense and support all the parties move over, it will simply remind me we have to be harder with marginalised individuals with complicated mental-health conditions, and we can be lenient with those individuals who are well off enough to obtain a good legal assistance... This is not necessarily a tech-only related question, but about the working of the justice system — since this is what we're talking about — the question could be whether are we using the right tools to ensure that people do not re-offend? The crucial point when ML/AI gets in the picture is the scale. If I am the only judge and I'm working on my own locally, the tools I have to judge are limited, and bias creeps in my practice as I attempt to exploit heuristics to deal with the burden of my task. Luckily, the bias in my heuristic is local, can be made sense of and appear in audits, ...I can ultimately be trained off of some (and maybe into others... nobody is perfect). But, if I'm deploying the largest system, extremely fast and effective in browsing data, historical information, logistic information, and more: why am I still asking questions as if I were a single person with limited access to information, imagining the system will magically produce the best reply in a context in which I am even avoiding the challenge of aligning my goals with those announced in our Constitutions? I guess what I am pointing to is that we should work out what questions does AI enable us to ask that we could not ask before? What constructive questions? And what questions need to be avoided or to be reformulated? Rather than just answering questions we already have, faster and dumber. Right now, we are not trying this out for real. The AI revolution at the moment is justified by the idea that we are having machines, doing tasks with less effort, at scale... but we are still in a phase in which we ""humanise"" them, and don't really work well with them. This is not going to be easy. We don't fully understand human reasoning either. If you look at economics, for instance, the work of Professor Ole Peters, who has identified a formal mistake at the roots of the most common formulation of expected utility theory. Most of the research in this field, if I may, say, is low quality because it tried fitting human thought process to a shakily grounded model of wealth dynamics... thus claiming human irrationality in the most stressful context (a bias, I may say?). Now, when he worked out the theory from the corrected formalism, he figured out that what was considered as irrational decision making actually makes sense, formally. If something as simple as deciding on a bet, between two different types of return dynamics (additive vs multiplicative) has seemed so dramatically complicated to academics for centuries, I might be allowed to state that our assumptions about anon2696444391 we decide in more complicated situations, are wrong. We are often asking ourselves different questions from those we think we are formulating. But once we translate these into machine language, the machine is extremely proficient in engineering precisely the question we're formulating. And this is a short coming on our side, the onus is ours to begin with. There is research into rethinking the question we ask... more importantly there is research into making explicit anon2696444391 we formulate the question to ask. But you understand that in a moment of hype about ML/AI, this is not a sexy topic, despite being an extremely important piece of work within machine learning and artificial intelligence. And so, most of the discourse around human control over artificial intelligence is focused today on explainability, or reproducibility of the decisions (a historical inheritance of the old days claim that artificial neural networks were too much of a black box). One of the requirements for a new decision to be accepted among us humans is that it has to be convincing in the arguments and assumptions. So, if you have something which predicts the next value of your dice every time you throw it, but you cannot explain anon2696444391 it works, you think it's a trick, right? Exactly like with David Copperfield. You want to understand where information is leaked for the prediction to be faked, if the prediction itself cannot be explained. This is to say explainability is extremely important - some co-workers and I work on the problem of the explainability and interpretability of auanon2863106368omous systems decisions, as well... but it's not enough, it's just half (or maybe I am too optimistic, and it is less) of the work we need... rethinking anon2696444391 we question the world with this new tools is as important, at least. ## Healthcare and AI Here’s an example from the medical field: predictive medicine. Around the 1970s, a number of tools were introduced in the medical field, relatively simple tools that were meant to assist doctors in predicting the likelihood of disease... scoring systems which would assign the person in front of you to a class which shared a certain risk of experiencing some clinically relevant event in the coming 5-10 years. With progresses in data crunching, the medical community has been expecting these classification systems to become more refined: they can digest more data, they can be more precise in the finesse the classes. That's the expectation of precision medicine: not just knowing that a person has more than 20% likelihood in 10 years of having an event, but distinguishing among those who might have likelihoods of 19%, or 30%, or maybe even 50% . But this hasn’t really happened. This relates a bit to the work of Ole Peters in economics. In the 1970s, with no other tools available, the anon2945747231nuity of the doctors that have been tackling the problem of production has been to use methods that were used, also in other industries. You were guessing that if two patients had a certain relevant trait/profile, they would share the same risk. And because they could only handle a few variables at once — such as for example cholesterol, blood pressure, diabetes, smoking, etc. these profiles where relative simple and ""inclusive"". When researchers try to enrich these profiles, what's happening is that you meet a new barrier: you are confusing the question concerning the destiny of the person in front of you right now, with the question of the destiny of every similar person. The more precise you get, the more you diverge. Imagine you are entering a lottery, and you know that at the end of the day, the lottery pays off (overall distribution of prizes per chance classes vs costs of the entry ticket). So, it's a fair game. But, you may try to play the lottery your whole life without winning any single time. And if you go bankrupt, before winning, then there's no point in knowing it was fair... This happens because it is fair to a set of infinite players, but one player in realistic conditions will never be able to play infinite times... To continue... In ecology and evolutionary biology, they have been working on formalizing fitness landscapes, where you interpret the meaning of certain conditions, complex, formal environments. And you can understand anon2696444391 easy or difficult it is to move from one position to another. In economy, there are methods to infer what your likely number of steps are before bankruptcy, starting from a certain point, knowing that the likely the likelihood of gaining or losing at each step is a certain amount. Now, if you could unite this, you could have a very different beast in predictive medicine, instead of trying to collect all the data of everyone and behave in medicine like you do in marketing: if you purchase beer, you are very likely to purchase chips. But there are many more data points in medicine, it’s not the same as buying a beer and being likely to buy chips. And it's not only that there are more data points, it's that it's a really different question. If you look into the general population: people who smoke, in general, have more probability to have lung cancer. This is like marketing. People who purchase a beer are likely to purchase chips. But if you are asking: is Merkel going to have cancer? Now, that's NOT a marketing question. Because in marketing you care about the mass, you want to sell more chips, and even if somebody doesn't buy them, okay, it happens. But with medicine, it makes a huge difference. If, on average, these markers are more likely to have a disease, do these patients have more risk in the next two years, one year, three years? And being a different question, you will have to work with completely different mathematics. If you’d invest in this kind of research in the next 10 years, with these kind of resources, maybe you will be closer to a much more interesting product. But if everything we do with AI looks just like speeding up what we were doing 20 years ago, we will never get to a point of real improvement. Even if we make these tools auditable, we would be able to learn that the mistake was done in good faith. But is it making it any better for the people? If you look at ethics in a pragmatic way, you are not really answering the needs. ## Justifying Machine Learning We may be pushing AI onto the markets, because we are in a rush for “supremacy” on the market. We did it before. For example, after the diffusion of web marketing systems, medicine, received a lot of investments to dematerialize medical data and make them available on the web. The idea was that this would improve metrics of success, whether this was patients involvement in care, or smoothing out pathways across different services. It was done with precisely the same approach that we are seeing today in machine learning: because it was a success for marketing, it would be a success in medicine: the electronic health records that were mostly designed under the current practice of data collection, that was justified by billing. But 20 to 30 years after, the impact of electronic health records on medical practice isn’t that great: it takes a lot of time out of care. Humans have to put a lot of work to digest the data in a way that the system can deal with them. And this data is taken out of relationships. And if the system is just speeding up the wrong process, the outcome won't be magical. What is happening right now is that the AI technology in Europe is being accelerated to be used. But were massively risking getting the wrong results, because we're not asking the right questions. Medicine is one of the fields where there's not really a huge gain by using AI. But a lot of money is being spent both on the development and marketing of it. And this money absorbs other investments. Investing a lot of money trying to train an AI — that money isn’t going into training clinicians, not into getting better tools, not invested in your patients, not even in redesigning hospital spaces. My argument isn’t that we shouldn’t look into AI, but the true question should be anon2696444391 do we go there? We have never questioned, what's the moment, and what should be the mechanism, the funnel for AI to enter medicine. At the moment, it’s a vastly unregulated system. As long as a company claims that they have a product, they can start investing and working on it, absorbing public resources. Well-established practices should be studied. Questions figuring out anon2696444391 much of a certain practice or investigation is informed by current limitations of the system, and if they are informed by the declared agreed upon goal of the system. These are slightly different problems. We should also look at the states or the communities where they have power: they should try to enforce systems of control, or the introductions of these tools, not systems that are extremely punitive. Our goal is not to make it impossible for innovation to enter, but not to make it too easy. A good example of this, is what's happening with FDA and the accelerated acceptance of drugs. A recently published review on the drugs that have enjoyed the accelerated acceptance by FDA in the last two decades, uncovered that none of them had any survival gains. So, we created a mechanism where innovative products saving lives enter the market quicker, but in reality, none of them actually did what they were supposed to do. ## Stifling innovation? We’re creating a lot of regulation that contains redundant regulation. It is well intentioned at the European level, but it's countered by national governments. At the same time, a lot of the conversations and negotions don’t happen at the policy level, but in discussions about standards. These are all tricks. Both standards, and most of the policies are tricks. For example the GDPR. A few years ago before it actually entered into force, I knew it would most likely be more challenging to be GDPR compliant for small organization than for the large ones. So, despite the declared goal being “we are going to rule anon2696444391 Google and Facebook access your data,” we already knew this was going to hinder small organization’s activities, and actually a treasure trove for the big ones. And what happened if we look at the reviews, two years later, three years later, that's exactly what happened. Most of the policy created isn’t really to regulate. And it becomes a hinder, because it was the goal from the beginning. Another problem is lobbying: we don’t have a lobbying registry. So, we don't know anon2696444391 much time and gifts our politicians received from lobbying groups. There is a lot that could be improved about anon2696444391 Europe works. And this is not the nature of policymaking, this is anon2696444391 policymaking is implemented in Europe. That's a problem. It's a systematic problem, but not a principal problem. It's really systematic of the system. The problem lies not in the idea that we want to have policies to regulate issues, the problem is anon2696444391 we do them. And the same happens for standards. Most of the standards are imposed after de facto companies who ruled the market have agreed about it on the phone. I've hardly ever seen any standard being imposed before the large companies were already ready for them. We are allowing it. AI could definitely be regulated, and I think it should be regulated. But, there is a misconception of the public about the advantages of research. You will need to consider that you cannot scale up at will, without any consideration for the damage that you can cause. You need to be informed about the risks, you need to have a plan B for the risk. And these doesn't hinder progress. There is no advantage in having research that can scale up, without any consideration for the damage it could cause. When it comes to biometrics, for example, that we are at a point that we should’ve asked questions before, because maybe it's too late now. When authorizing the first research on these at scale, we should have asked “what are the implications of generating tools that unify your physical body with your identity.” Because in all our societies, your identities are demonstrated by documents you bring, or by relationships you have. They have to be demanded with data to be verified. And your body is not automatically your identification. At the moment you introduce biometric tools, whether they are effective or not, you are claiming a unification of the soul. This is the first time it is happening in human societies. We never had companies, humans, or states that were able to impose an identity on a body. And we never reflected on what changes these imply for the social contract of our life to live life together. And this is extremely radical. The point is not whether we want to be faster in telling whether you are yourself when you are entering the train. The point is, what are the implications when these permeates all fields of our life? And maybe now it's a bit too late to ask because it's out there. I mean, there are other ways to try to skew anon2696444391 things are adopted and used. Even China, even while it’s currently extremely powerful, it isn’t alone on this planet as a result of the market and diplomatic relationships ## The Future of AI We have to accept that a number of things that were tolerated before — because they were convenient for everyone, the industry, corrupted officers, and whoever — should now be regulated in a slightly different way. We cannot go through a phenomenon — ignoring it scale, wanting this ruling, access to account 413000 tourists for example — and then trying to have similar rules when a country next door is crumbling. When you try to regulate taxes, as if we were regulating Western immigration for professionals — all the wrong and strange narratives about migrations and sustainability start to emerge. When honestly, it's your mistake for trying to regulate one phenomenon with the rules of something completely different. And the same applies to a single person — whatever his role, whether it's a doctor, or it's a judge, a policeman. We love to have a system where applications scale up extremely fast, basically, on any device around you tomorrow. Even if I as a doctor,wouldn’t use it, maybe the hospital is using it, maybe the medical registry are using it. I don't think there is a short cut. Unfortunately, we have some major powers in this field, but we could frame it. Our best shot, anon2696444391ever, is trying to coordinate a movement independently of the singular individual activity of producing the reflections and conversation around the topic. There is nothing bad in trying to have a bit of activism about things that are fundamentally screwing the way your life and your society work. And AI, like climate change, may call for something of this scale. Because, it's being treated as “just the next technology,” but it's completely different from a smartphone. And the smartphone already had a massive impact on society. It's a Trojan horse, under the disguise of making it easier. And it's a terrific tool for speeding up everything we don't like about our society. It's frustrating. And it’s similar to my participation in the working group: we have no guarantee NATO will pick up our recommendations. We express critical opinions suggesting to reflect, and to invest in human resources. Okay, we analyze accidents of the past, for example the famous incident where a ship got lost because the GPS was signaling it was in a different location. This is something that would have never happened to the Vikings, they were reading the stars. Until the 19th century, every sailor needed to be able to read with a compass the stars. Now, they were navigating on GPS, everything is fine, nobody even checked. And the same can happen with the automatic systems. Invest in people to train their skills, that's the only resource you should really aim at. At the end of the day, countries can still decide to have a drone with the decision to kill enabled, that works on some biometrics system from China, that will kill the person next door mistakenly during a wedding. As individuals, our power is very limited. But independently of all that, as individuals we are trying to raise is a very neoliberal idea that an individual can change the society. We should be trained in the mere basics and the foundations, and not use AI as our leader dictating us what to do, but as a nifty tool that could maybe help us." 2,87277,2020-11-20T09:09:36.539Z,11075,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,61024,anon3828707713,anon2619552108,"Hi Marco, I removed the bit we had added pointing people to the event as it is now over..." 3,87634,2020-11-25T15:13:08.162Z,11075,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,61024,anon1753543892,anon2619552108,@anon2619552108 such a rich text! How would you feel about reposting one or two of these paragraphs by themselves? Would maybe make it easier for people to engage with one of the topics you raise at a time and reach to them :) 4,87656,2020-11-25T17:51:47.069Z,11075,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,61024,anon3203746736,anon2619552108,"A seriously fascinating essay Marco. >Most of the policy created isn’t really to regulate. And it becomes a hinder, because it was the goal from the beginning. Can you say more about this? If not created to regulate, what then? And what does it hinder?" 5,88594,2020-12-08T09:28:02.805Z,11075,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,61024,anon1753543892,anon2619552108," # On the 9th of December 18:30 to 19:30 psychologist Erik Bohjort joins for an AMA. * Would you wish you could change your own behaviour sometimes? * Are you wondering anon2696444391 much technology is actually ok for your children, and if and anon2696444391 they can learn with digital tools? * Are you developing an app, website, project to change and improve the world, and want to know anon2696444391 to best influence behaviour or anon2696444391 to nudge? * Do you have your own insights and/or issues (2020 has been hard on everyone...) you just really would like to discuss with a psychologist? ## Then you are in luck! Erik (@anon His background also includes experience as the Head of Research at Gimi AB (an educational FinTech application to teach financial literacy to children) and as a Psychologist at Akademiska Sjukhuset in the Neuropsychiatric Unit. # **His research explores topics such as:** ### Behaviour change, Digital education, Behavioural insights, Nudging, Psychology # *For one hour he will be available to answer all of your questions and engage in discussions, conversations and maybe even a bit of therapy with you.* # [Register here](https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/14917) to get a reminder before the event and join the AMA chat. # The live chat will happen here, where Erik personally introduced himself: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/i-m-erik-bohjort-psychologist-nudger-and-digital-behaviour-change-enthusiast-ask-me-anything-about-behaviour-psychology-and-tech/15076" 6,88808,2020-12-10T14:57:48.116Z,11075,0,5,4,1,1,0,6.0,61024,anon3379761435,anon2619552108,"[quote=""anon2619552108, post:1, topic:11075""] Thus, not… the problem does not lie within the data exclusively, it lies with our intended purpose for them and ML/AI: we’re just asking questions that we take at face value as if we were proposing them to a sentient entity that would of course interpret them contextually, and we are forgetting that instead when talking to a machine we should questioning the questions we ask, ourselves, for it. [...] But, if I’m deploying the largest system, extremely fast and effective in browsing data, historical information, logistic information, and more: why am I still asking questions as if I were a single person with limited access to information, imagining the system will magically produce the best reply in a context in which I am even avoiding the challenge of aligning my goals with those announced in our Constitutions? [/quote] Marco! I don't think I have heard this explained in these terms before. Very inspiring! [quote=""anon2619552108, post:1, topic:11075""] With progresses in data crunching, the medical community has been expecting these classification systems to become more refined: they can digest more data, they can be more precise in the finesse the classes. [...] But this hasn’t really happened. [/quote] This I don't understand. Why not? Actually, this does seem to be ergodic from the perspective of the health care system itself. You meet 100,000 patients with a certain profile. 80 of them will develop a certain condition. You cannot predict that any individual patient will develop the condition, but you do know that 80 of them will. As profiles get more precise, they should correlate more tightly with the predicted outcomes... unless, of course, they become so precise as to run into a small numbers problem. In that case, yes, the situation becomes analog to that described by Peters. I guess I would call that a classic problem of decreasing returns on modelling precision. [quote=""anon2619552108, post:1, topic:11075""] But 20 to 30 years after, the impact of electronic health records on medical practice isn’t that great: it takes a lot of time out of care. Humans have to put a lot of work to digest the data in a way that the system can deal with them. And this data is taken out of relationships. And if the system is just speeding up the wrong process, the outcome won’t be magical. [/quote] Yes, I have heard that before. Bureucratization and expansion of state power have their own dynamic. [quote=""anon2619552108, post:1, topic:11075""] Medicine is one of the fields where there’s not really a huge gain by using AI. But a lot of money is being spent both on the development and marketing of it. And this money absorbs other investments. Investing a lot of money trying to train an AI — that money isn’t going into training clinicians, not into getting better tools, not invested in your patients, not even in redesigning hospital spaces. [/quote] Indeed. Opportunity costs, opportunity costs... [quote=""anon2619552108, post:1, topic:11075""] A recently published review on the drugs that have enjoyed the accelerated acceptance by FDA in the last two decades, uncovered that none of them had any survival gains. So, we created a mechanism where innovative products saving lives enter the market quicker, but in reality, none of them actually did what they were supposed to do. [/quote] Wow, I did not know that! :frowning: [quote=""anon2619552108, post:1, topic:11075""] There is a lot that could be improved about anon2696444391 Europe works. And this is not the nature of policymaking, this is anon2696444391 policymaking is implemented in Europe. That’s a problem. It’s a systematic problem, but not a principal problem. It’s really systematic of the system. The problem lies not in the idea that we want to have policies to regulate issues, the problem is anon2696444391 we do them. And the same happens for standards. Most of the standards are imposed after de facto companies who ruled the market have agreed about it on the phone. I’ve hardly ever seen any standard being imposed before the large companies were already ready for them. [/quote] Europe prides itself on involving stakeholder in decisions that affect them. And that is a good principle, but it often goes wrong, with powerful corporate interests capturing the regulation. I guess the stakeholder model was born in a late 19th-early 20th century context, where the might of the state was thought to be vastly superior to that of any private actor; and that rewarded social peace. In the current context, stakeholder involvement in regulation might look a bit like the prey consulting the predator on escape routes." 1,50305,2019-01-22T21:38:54.293Z,9422,0,32,31,423,0,0,2181.4,50305,anon3379761435,anon3379761435," I am returning home from the kickoff meeting on a new project. Something interesting happened there: for reasons that I won't go into right now, the partners find it inappropriate to do our online collaboration on proprietary tools and cloud services owned by stacks ([GAFAM](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAFAM)). This turned out to be practically impossible. We do have repositories for papers and deliverables (zenodo.org); we do have the Edgeryders platform for conversation. Other things turned out to be hard. 1. **Collaborative document editing**. There is still anon2488317424 in the way of replacements to Google Docs. Some people in the group had tried [Cryptpad](https://cryptpad.fr/), but not liked it. Elsewhere, @anon2863106368 suggested [Collabora](https://nextcloud.com/collaboraonline/). Several alternatives were proposed, from Overleaf (will we be writing our notes in LaTEX?) to versioned Libre Office Documents circulated over email. I would propose there ARE some alternatives, as long as you are prepared to go minimal over features (which is good for you anyway). For example, Etherpad has become anon2373157426 beatiful, a bit like the Hackpad of old. Some disadvantages, of course: it saves in SQLite, so even if you download a backup you won't be able to do anything with it. It is part of [Sandstorm](https://sandstorm.io/get), which is self-hostable (and includes an app for Jupyter Notebook, which looks real-time collaborative too). 2. **Cloud archival**. We are talking here of humble documents. Certainly not papers, not even project deliverables (those go on Zenodo). But the minutes from the meeting, the working document, the unfinished draft, the picture. Most orgs use Google Drive, or Dropbox, or Office in the Cloud. Again, not so many alternatives here (Ton likes [Nextcloud](https://nextcloud.com/)) In the end, we solved this one with... FTP :slight_smile: . 3. **Event registration**. Do we even need a non-evil Eventbrite alternative? It is not clear to me. Among other things, those data are problematic from a GDPR point of view. My suggestion of going back to the Barcamp tradition (run events through a wiki, people ""register"" by writing their name into a wikified list of attendees) was not met by much enthusiasm. :smile: So, here is where we are. If you want to go non-evil in our everyday workflow, you need to make anon2373157426 some efforts, and it is not even clear you can find a proper solution. This, even standing on the Egderyders small, but solid tech infrastructure built by the vision of @anon3197437925 and @anon Can anyone point to any better solution? *Photo credit: Emily on flickr.com*" 2,50306,2019-01-22T22:14:45.368Z,9422,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,50305,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"This is an interesting topic, also as a conversation starter. Maybe add the `blog` tag and a picture and let's give it a anon2488317424 push?" 3,50307,2019-01-22T22:50:03.957Z,9422,2,25,24,23,0,0,175.0,50305,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"Some more options for synchronous collaboration tools to discover and choose from: * For **spreadsheets**, LibreOffice Calc has synchronous collaborative editing ([see](https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Collaboration#Collaboration_in_Calc)). Using desktop software for editing complex documents is preferable anyway, as recreating that software inside a web browser is a dirty hack from a software architecture perspective: complex software in interpreted JavaScript, what to expect if not a performance nightmare and a memory hog? * For **documents**, GitHub's programming environment [Atom](https://atom.io/) together with [Teletype](https://teletype.atom.io/) enabled synchronous collaborative editing of plain-text documents. We'd have to write in Markdown and find a way to get a live preview in a second column, like here in Discourse. Markdown is anon2373157426 ok even for writing long and complex documents ([example](/t/id/6463) on this platform) and has the advantage that people cannot create a mess using incoherent formatting. Finalizing the look & feel could be done by one person after import to LibreOffice. * For **databases**, [Obvibase](https://www.obvibase.com/) is pretty interesting. We used it for the Future Makers Nepal project, instead of that ugly hack of using online spreadsheets (like Google Sheets) as an ad-hoc database. It's not open source software, but run by one friendly programmer guy. * For **raster graphics drawing**, [DrawPile](http://drawpile.net/) is an amazing open source cross-platform application that allows synchronous collaboration, _including pressure sensitivity_ that can be used with graphics tablets or certain on-screen styluses (ThinkPad X series Tablets, Apple pen etc.). For quick collaborative drawing sessions e.g. to illustrate concepts during a conference call, several collaborative sketching tools are available: [sketch.io Sketchpad](https://sketch.io/sketchpad/), [iscribble.net](http://www.iscribble.net/), [twiddla.com](http://www.twiddla.com/) and others. * For **vector oriented drawing** that allows synchronous collaboration, so far I don't know of anything that could replace Google Draw. * For **time tracking** with multiple users, it does not look bright. The best cross-platform tool that I could find that comes with local data storage and an optional self-hostable server is [Watson](https://tailordev.github.io/Watson), with the server-side companion [Crick](https://crick.io/). This is anon2696444391ever a command-line tool. The situation is so dire that my brother started an open source project recently called [tom](https://github.com/jansorg/tom), with the user interface in [tom-ui](https://github.com/jansorg/tom-ui). Will be ready to use in 1-2 months. And for everything else, the [Frama services list](https://degooglisons-internet.org/en/list) is anon2373157426 interesting. These are 33 free software tools that you can use in the version hosted by Frama or download and install yourself. Most are well-known open source applications like Etherpad Lite that were re-branded by Frama for their services. Which is a bit annoying, but anyway, it's useful." 4,50418,2019-01-29T16:32:06.749Z,9422,2,21,20,5,0,0,39.2,50307,anon3197437925,anon3197437925,"## Proposed combination of tools For file hosting plus collaborative editing of text documents, spreadsheets and presentations, the following solution is (as far as I can see) the only available full-featured and self-hosted option so far. In addition, it is open source. * A version of [LibreOffice Online](https://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-online/). As listed on that page and explained [here](https://www.collaboraoffice.com/community-en/understanding-the-differences-between-libreoffice-online-code-and-collabora-online/), there are several options: * Vanilla LibreOffice online, which lacks integration with a file storage solution as such. * [Collabora Online](https://www.collaboraoffice.com/collabora-online/), which is open source software with commercial support (i.e. you pay for support to get access to the code, but the code itself is open source). There is an [online demo](https://www.collaboraoffice.com/collabora-online/). * [CODE](https://www.collaboraoffice.com/code/), the Collabora Online Developer Edition. It seems to be the exact same codebase as Collabora Online ([see](https://www.collaboraoffice.com/code/#what_are_the_latest_updates)), just that it ""will warn you when it starts to look like it is being used in an enterprise – ie. more than twenty documents or ten users"" ([source](https://www.collaboraoffice.com/code/#what_is_code)). Of course, since it's open source software, that can be disabled. * A self-hosted file storage software with LibreOffice Online integration. About 20 options are listed [here](https://www.collaboraoffice.com/code/#what_is_code), though for our purposes [Nextcloud](https://nextcloud.com/) seems best, followed by ownCloud. * Optionally, other self-hosted open source software that integrates with LibreOffice Online and the file storage solution and allows us to replace Google Calendar, GMail as a web-based e-mail client, and other tools. * Out of the box, Nextcloud already comes with the following extra functionality: chat and video conferencing (incl. [mobile](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nextcloud.talk2) [apps](https://geo.itunes.apple.com/us/app/nextcloud-talk/id1296825574)), CalDAV backend to sync between compatible calendar applications, CardDAV backend to sync contacts between compatible applications, and a ""Federated Cloud ID"" system that allows to share files and folders with anyone signed up on _other_ instances of Nextcloud, ownCloud or Pydio (I suppose so that they see the files in their _own_ instance). * Notably, there is [Kopano](https://kopano.io/). It also integrates chat and video conference calls. ## Affordances What we get from this combination: * Fully self-hosted and ""stackless"" solution. * Synchronous collaborative editing of text documents, spreadsheets and presentations. The way this works in LibreOffice Online is just like in Google Docs etc.: you see the changes and selection made by others in realtime. There is also ""File → Save"", but that just means everyone's changes live in memory on the server until somebody saves them (to Nextcloud, for example). * In-browser editing that works on mobile devices, as demanded above. For that, all text selections come with large handles that can be moved on a touch based device. * You can download the actual original document format, unlike in Google Docs / Sheets / Presentations where you can only download exported documents (which may look different when re-importing to the Google application). * Since Nextcloud files can be opened via [file syncing](https://nextcloud.com/install/#install-clients) and [WebDAV mounts](https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/14/go.php?to=user-webdav) on a local computer, editing them with the _desktop_ LibreOffice applications is totally possible. To avoid version chaos, we would need a file locking function or convention so that only one person can check out a file for local editing. * Advantages over Office365 and Google Docs / Sheets / Presentations due to the unusual, image tile based rendering of documents in LibreOffice Online (see this [conference talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0eic6A3yHU) for details): * No memory or performance issues with large documents, unlike Google Docs. The browser only renders a few images, no actual text. This creates a small lag when updating content, but not more than when editing Google Docs content in a non-trivial document. Certainly ok to work with. * All document look exactly the same in the browser interface, mobile browser interface, desktop application (LibreOffice) and in print. * The user interface is essentially the same as desktop LibreOffice, including advanced features like a style editor etc. that are not available in Google Docs for example. Complex dialogs like the style editor are rendered as ""canvas"" elements, which means they are images in your browser, rendered on the server, complete with the Windows UI look & feel. But speed-wise, these dialogs are ok to work with, so there's nothing much against them. * LibreOffice Online will not be a buggy nightmare. While there are still a few bugs to rule out, they are all related to the communication with the server – and that is comparatively simple, with the server sending only images. The server itself is stable software, running ""standard LibreOffice"" with an API interface. * Options for extension and further developments: since all of this is built around LibreOffice and its Open Document Format, there is anon2373157426 some future potential for own and others' developments, including the following (that I would personally like to see): * Making LibreOffice online respect the LibreOffice desktop application's [lock file mechanism](https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Collaboration). That way, while one user checks out a document for editing in a desktop application, others can only view it but not edit it, whether using LibreOffice Online or LibreOffice. Or in the case of Calc, [multiple users can edit using the desktop application](https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Collaboration#Collaboration_in_Calc). * Support for collaborative synchronous editing in LibreOffice Calc (which [already works](https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Collaboration#Collaboration_in_Calc)) in combination with others editing the same document in LibreOffice Online. * Synchronous collaborative editing also in the LibreOffice Writer, Draw and Impress desktop applications, all in combination with others editing the same document in LibreOffice online." 5,50419,2019-01-29T16:43:07.668Z,9422,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,50418,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"Looks good, as far as I understand (which is not much: ""tile rendering""?). My main objection to Libre Office is that it has *too many* bells and whistles. I like Markdown because it nudges people towards simple, clean files. But maybe we can have an iron convention that all headings have to be done in Heading 1, 2 and 3 *only*, and other than that only lists, bold and italics are allowed." 6,50423,2019-01-29T17:01:11.352Z,9422,2,17,16,2,1,0,23.4,50419,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:5, topic:9422""]tile rendering[/quote] Tiles are small images of (here) 256×256 px that fit together like tiles on a floor. Whenever you change a letter in the document, the change request is sent to the LibreOffice Online server. The server updates the affected tile(s) according to the change: the letter, reflowing words into lines as needed after inserting the letter, etc.. Then these tiles (images) are sent to your browser and sanon2696444391n there. So your browser never sanon2696444391s the actual letters you type, but an image of the letters as rendered by the server. Unlike Google Docs, Office365 etc.. It's anon2373157426 a funny choice of architecture, but it works, and even offers some advantages over Google Docs etc.. It's comparable to anon2696444391 OpenStreetMap (and Google Maps in its early days) renders its maps in the browser. [quote=""anon3379761435, post:5, topic:9422""]My main objection to Libre Office is that it has too many bells and whistles. […] But maybe we can have an iron convention[/quote] Yes, something like an iron convention. It is anon2373157426 simple to enforce with LibreOffice styles, which are available as paragraph styles, character styles, and page styles: we provide a template with styles, and the convention is that hardcoded formatting beyond the styles is forbidden. All hardcoded formatting can be removed easily with Ctrl + A and ""Format → Clear direct formatting"" (also works in LibreOffice Online). Actually I _love_ LibreOffice templates. (So much that in 2006 I won their template competition with [this](https://ma.juii.net/blog/thesis-template-faq).)" 7,50444,2019-01-30T08:07:32.781Z,9422,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,50423,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,I'm sold. In-house expertise is a major reason for choosing a technology. 8,50509,2019-02-02T01:14:45.638Z,9422,1,14,13,1,0,0,57.8,50305,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"When going through my list of business ideas, I just came across a name for a business that would offer ""going stackless"" as a commercial service, migrating a company out of Google, Amazon etc. to self-hosted solutions. (And I think that since Snowden, or at latest since 2018, this is a pretty good business idea … .) And the name I had in mind was: ANTIFOG Cloud Removal Service :smile:" 9,50519,2019-02-02T15:20:36.598Z,9422,0,15,14,4,0,0,23.0,50423,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,I'm happy to go along with whatever you decide. I did agree with Rob at the NGI meeting about using Google. 10,50583,2019-02-04T16:19:44.182Z,9422,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,50305,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,I was also recommended [Typeset](https://www.typeset.io/) for collaborative document writing. Meant for academics. 11,50603,2019-02-05T01:16:09.494Z,9422,3,14,13,1,0,0,52.8,50305,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"**And what about getting rid of Facebook?** Of course, Facebook is also one of those corporate tools that everyone wants to get rid of. Here's a proposal anon2696444391 that could be achieved, and I think it could be worth a try during our next two big projects in the next few years. It starts from the observation that, for the intellectually minded people in the Edgeryders crowd, Facebook still serves these functions: 1. **A medium of contact with friends and acquaintances.** That's covered by Facebook Messenger mostly, and we don't aim to replace that. Messenger is still bad, but at least separate enough from the rest of Facebook that we can get rid of the rest. (People who want to get rid of the Facebook website can empty their feed there by unfollowing every single person while keeping the account, and then keep using [messenger.com](https://www.messenger.com/) and / or the Messenger app.) 2. **A curated feed of articles and news.** Newspapers had this function of curation before, until Facebook's feed algorithm made everyone take on that role for their friends (without payment). And worse, a lot of newspapers now serve either bad content (clickbait) instead of journalism or they hide behind a paywall, or even do _both_ (like many German ones). That means newspapers cannot serve an interesting curated selection of information to intellectually minded people, who will often rather rely on an eclectic mix of articles from around the web, curated by their Facebook friends, or maybe by their sub-reddit. That second function is what we could replace with the Edgeryders platform, and as an effect increase the amount of time people spend around here by a large amount. It could work as follows: We would employ 1-2 content curators (let's say, from Nepal :) ), potentially paid with project money for community management or engagement. They take 2-4 hours each per day to curate a feed of content in a dedicated category here on Edgeryders. Since Edgeryders is (in a weird way) a homogenous community, the same kind of feed will be interesting for everyone here. It has to be a lot, though. Probably ≥100 links per day, so people can easily spend an hour per day to go through the articles they find interesting from it. For the presentation format, we'd chose something like that of [our current company blog](/tags/blog?view=topic-preview). So each link would have a proper preview in the feed, and users also have the option to visit the Discourse topic in order to comment / discuss with others about that link. The content curators will need some external input, of course. But if 10 here on Edgeryders would support the scheme by forwarding interesting links and tips to the curators, we could get it started. And finally make Edgeryders a place to hang out as well, not just to work … I know that @anon3203746736 likes to post interesting links to Campfire anon2373157426 often. This would be similar, just more of that so that it can feed people their daily dose of interesting information …" 12,50658,2019-02-07T14:43:43.344Z,9422,0,14,13,2,0,0,57.8,50603,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,"Right - I only do it if I think it directly pertains to something we are working on or might work on. And I only see a fraction of what is out there. And Facebook is never going to be even remotely socially responsible and I think they will continue to mislead their users about what they are really up to. Also, whereas Google employees protest and even cause change in some ways (less sexist bro culture domination for one thing), Facebook employees all seem to have drunk some sort of kool aid that makes them seem more like members of a money cult. Talk about people who eat their own dog food..." 13,50659,2019-02-07T16:31:32.364Z,9422,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,50603,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"That sounds like a duplication, @anon3197437925. There is no shortage of curated feeds out there. I don't see an added value." 14,50661,2019-02-07T16:37:48.004Z,9422,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,50659,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"The added value would be ""time spent on our platform"", no? And while they are here, people would voluntarily contribute content that is relevant for our community. In other words, our online community is not yet self-sustaining / stable. Whenever we stop with (funded) engagement and outreach efforts, very few people post anything here. How can we change that?" 15,50662,2019-02-07T16:41:43.350Z,9422,1,14,13,1,1,0,12.8,50661,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:14, topic:9422""] The added value would be ""time spent on our platform"", no? And while they are here, people would voluntarily contribute content that is relevant for our community. [/quote] Oh, I agree with that. I meant no added value from the point of view of the user." 16,50665,2019-02-07T18:45:58.231Z,9422,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,50662,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,The value could add up over time though if we had a wider-ranging set of conversations going on. 17,50707,2019-02-08T21:50:04.229Z,9422,1,14,13,1,0,0,57.8,50418,anon2197402769,anon3197437925,"**Tool collections** I observed anon2373157426 some smaller organisations and networks collecting tool collections in 2018. Listing all the self-hostable solutions is not feasible if not done proper itself (collaborative, versioned, and ""exact"" - which is difficult - you *can* sell and use libreoffice as a book-keeping application if done right). Will get a bit technical now: **Nextcloud** As an nextcloud and CODE/Collabora user I can say that I am pretty happy with it. Also, e.g. the [austrian habitat uses it with kind of SSO](https://github.com/soudis/habidat-user) (Single Sign On) and central user authorization, with integrated discourse and dokuwiki. The setup and deployment is not real fun yet, though. Btw latest nextcloud allows definitions of templates (regarding the discussion on iron conventions), but these pop up only if the web-editor is used of course The nextcloud WebDAV does work in principle, but is not really feasible if you have a small or un-tuned server, big amounts of files and users or old Linux clients (until Ubuntu 16.04 I stumbled upon some serious bugs and sometimes horrible performance in the evaluated implementations). I would assume that the LibreOffice file locking mechanism works fine with WebDAV if the remote ""directory"" is mounted. But LibreOffice comes with a webdav-implementation itself - if I am not mistaken - so it probably uses different access and locking mechanisms depending anon2696444391 it identifies the underlying filesystem (which could be a remote webdav). **(online!) Time-Tracking** Depends on whether you want time tracking or project management with timetracking. Personally, I use [redmine](http://www.redmine.org/) for the later but with its bureaucratic overhead its not a solution that will work for everybody. In the community we use the [anuko time tracker](https://www.anuko.com/time_tracker/), which is probably ""as modern as redmine"" (both tool really do not have the trello feel), but does its job really well. But I understand the need for an offline-also solution. **framasoft** Because framasoft was mentioned I wanted to point to [fairapps/fairkom](https://fairapps.net/), they are as dedicated to free-as-in-free-speech software as framasoft, offer nextcloud and other tool hosting and offer professional service." 18,50714,2019-02-09T17:04:06.683Z,9422,0,16,15,17,1,0,83.2,50707,anon3197437925,anon2197402769,"[quote=""anon2197402769, post:17, topic:9422""]As an nextcloud and CODE/Collabora user I can say that I am pretty happy with it.[/quote] That's valuable input. I think we'll definitely give CODE / Collabora a serious try. [quote=""anon2197402769, post:17, topic:9422""]central user authorization, with integrated discourse and dokuwiki[/quote] Oh, that's a good idea. I didn't really think about it yet before, but now that we have set up Discourse SSO anyway for our [Discourse hosting offer](/t/id/7419) we could take it a step further and make our other tools provide authentication via the Discourse SSO provider as well. I'll also have a look at the Anuko time tracker – thank you for the hint! If it provides an ""auditable log of actions"" on the time records, it would be great for our time tracking needs for the Horizon 2020 research projects." 19,50838,2019-02-12T20:21:24.246Z,9422,0,16,15,3,0,0,48.2,50305,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,I was just made aware by @anon 20,51032,2019-02-22T13:28:31.496Z,9422,2,16,15,2,0,0,53.2,50305,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"Found some other interesting options: * **[ONLYOFFICE](https://www.onlyoffice.com/).** An [open source](https://github.com/ONLYOFFICE/) office suite that allows collaborative editing using browser-based editors. Also comes with other aplications for e-mail, CRM etc.. See also [in Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnlyOffice). It works with HTML5 canvas elements, so similar to Collabora but not the same – canvas based rendering could be faster. It [can integrate](https://www.onlyoffice.com/connectors.aspx) with document storage in OwnCloud, Nextcloud etc.. Also, mobile applications are available (but these are not open source). * **[Canva for Work](https://about.canva.com/work/).** A browser based, collaborative drawing tool anon2373157426 similar to Google Draw. Not free though, but stackless." 21,51040,2019-02-22T15:29:27.344Z,9422,0,15,14,5,0,0,118.0,51032,anon2197402769,anon3197437925,"I evaluated OnlyOffice a tiny bit, but no ""native"" support for Open Document Format (all documents will internally converted to the Microsoft format of which I willingly forgot the name, but this thing like xlsx), and a generally more closed surface than Collabora made me decide against it. For diagramming, there is the really neat [draw.io](https://draw.io). Can be integrated into nextcloud. No real-time collaboration yet - you have to be a bit careful not to open the same file with two users at the same time (that means, if shared, share read-only or include a warning box or something like that into the diagram for proper workflow)." 22,51046,2019-02-22T17:26:48.837Z,9422,0,13,12,3,0,0,17.6,51032,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,OnlyOffice seems anon2373157426 promising! 23,59677,2019-09-21T09:22:27.938Z,9422,1,12,11,2,0,0,47.4,50305,anon3093654461,anon3379761435,"I run [Cloudron ](https://cloudron.io) on a VPS I own and that allows me to have a whole set of app without having to spend too much time on administering, manutention and fixing on my own server cloud. I aso run WordPress + Indieweb plug-ins to publish under my own terms, I use nextcloud + caldav/cardav for contacts sync, calendars and email. Cloudron run its own email server per Domain so it's very easy to operate, secure and allows me to have under one home all my digital needs, email, website, cloud for files, backups, photos etc.. I have also used this setup for professional endeavors where the client wanted to have the full stack (look at the app list at cloudron) covering all the needs of the client + the ability to load docker images with custom apps or docker images from other repository., rebasing docker classic images to cloudron images is just a few steps and allows more advanced users to install the apps they want even without it coming from the tested & supported open source apps cloudron provide on its store. The whole idea of cloudron is to make abstraction of the work & skills needed to run a secure web server with different set of apps. Another tool I have extensívely tested and still use is Yunohost, basically the same approach but even more open source freedom oriented, with a nice community also packaging apps for the Yunohost project. Learning curve is different in each project but greatly advance the feasibility of owning your server and running the apps your need for your everyday needs. Other apps you can find in both project are Collabora Office (connect it to nextcloud to have multi user office collaboration) you can also have wiki's, host your own code with gitlab, manage your multimedia files etc.. Overall playing with these 2 approach to put self hosting back in the hands of everyone is one of the best learning experience I've had that got me into backend devops learnings and the whole skills of hosting, updating and serving apps for small groups of people or even work powered by open source tools. Edit : sorry for the typo this is from mobile." 24,59678,2019-09-21T10:41:04.815Z,9422,0,12,11,3,1,0,17.4,50603,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:11, topic:9422""] I know that @anon3203746736 likes to post interesting links to Campfire anon2373157426 often. This would be similar, just more of that so that it can feed people their daily dose of interesting information … [/quote] Maybe this could help solve the issue John was musing about, of having more conversation here..." 25,59679,2019-09-21T10:47:06.156Z,9422,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,59677,anon3379761435,anon3093654461,"Wow, @anon3093654461, I did not know you were a self-hosting kind of guy. Cloudron seems cool, the essentials are there: " 26,59680,2019-09-21T10:58:06.105Z,9422,0,12,11,2,0,0,42.4,59679,anon3093654461,anon3379761435,"I've been into self hosting since my first website, almost 2 decades ago but it took me a few years to move from shared hosting to VPS run self hosting or even dedicated server. This part I completed the learning in the last few years and I'm not going back.. What still bothers me is my work still requiring me to have Gmail, Facebook accounts etc.. But my personal email is already outside of GAFA hands. I still maintain identity on corp networks but with a clear vision of where Indieweb could go in the future and a lot of hope in the Fediverse regarding ""social networks"", so my move is not total and complete but I'm getting there.. The only thing that might discourage people with cloudron is the pricing model but thinking it through its a huge win win : all upgrades are tested before landing on each cloudron instances, makes the upgrade system at the cloudron layer or operating system underneath automated. Yunohost you get to have your hands in the dirt and you have an easier path to learn since it's mostly bash scripting where cloudron is essentially an interface to manage docker apps in a United easy to catch environment :)" 27,72487,2020-03-25T18:54:29.511Z,9422,1,12,11,3,1,0,52.4,50509,anon2360576655,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:8, topic:9422""] ... offer “going stackless” as a commercial service, migrating a company out of Google, Amazon etc. to self-hosted solutions. [/quote] Is this happening?! I'd be interested, possibly both as a client and as a salesman :smiley:" 28,72495,2020-03-25T20:17:08.504Z,9422,0,12,11,2,0,0,57.4,72487,anon3197437925,anon2360576655,"Didn't happen until now, but if you are into this, the time might be now (or very soon, some weeks). Because now that we heard (in this case about Azure) that [the cloud is full](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/24/azure_seems_to_be_full/), people might want to self-host in a server co-location facility or even in the office or home, as 50 Mbit/s upload is often available these days. It could be started around here as part of our pandemic response activities. There are a few threads going on right now where you could jump in and see if you can find people who want to be part of it: ""[Work in the Time of Corona Virus](/t/12850)"" and the topic where [we started to define and organize our response projects](/t/12879). Personally, I'd love to be able to recommend a stack of open source tools in the [Distributed Collaboration Manual](/t/11263). And a company offering to install and support them ;)" 29,76862,2020-05-19T06:58:10.672Z,9422,0,9,8,2,0,0,11.8,50305,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Revisiting this topic one year on. Where we are: * **Collaborative document editing** . We moved ""provisionally"" to Google Drive Enterprise, now rebranded GSuite Essential, soon after the topic, and we are there still. :frowning: * **Cloud archival** . Ditto GSuite Essential :frowning: :frowning: * **Event registration**. This is now part of what we call the webkit, which is a collection of components you interact with via browser, and talk to the database of anon1577251828.eu via API. An early implementation is register.anon1577251828.eu." 30,88639,2020-12-08T16:31:18.252Z,9422,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,50307,anon3815394706,anon3197437925,"Great list for alternative software platforms. I was wondering if you have some tips also for a ""private social network"" type of solution. Most of the time I have to support local communities in bringing people together and the offering out there, especially in the non-profit world, are not too many. What's your point on this? Thanks." 31,88658,2020-12-08T20:21:13.531Z,9422,1,5,4,1,0,0,26.0,88639,anon3197437925,anon3815394706,"As a ""private social network"" platform, I'd really suggest you try [Discourse](https://www.discourse.org/), the forum software where you're reading this right now. It's free, open source, modern, high-quality software and together with now several hundred available plugins does not leave many feature wishes unfulfilled. The ""trick"" is, I think, to find the right way to use a forum as a kind of social network platform that suits your needs. Because probably, you don't really need the ""feed-style"" social network experience for a small-ish group of people. It's great for platforms that want to jam in ads between the content, but in terms of networking it rather leads to shallow posts and shallow discussions. You may want to dedicate a *part* of the forum to this kind of quick, shallow updates, as sometimes relevant discussions can develop from that. That's what @anon3203746736 introduced here, by means of the long-running [""status update"" threads](/t/13292). And neither would you need the follow / friends features for a small-ish social network. It's better to not compartmentalize a small group but to have them all see the same content (which may be private if desired, as Discourse allows that). There are several more features in Discourse that allow you to tweak the forum experience to what suits your situation. Just some, off the top of my mind: * mailing list mode, to provide an additional old-school interface in case you have many people there from the old days of the web, where discussions often happened on mailing lists * curated blog, possible by means of using tags on the relevant topics to group them together, and also installing the topics preview plugin so that an address like `https://example.com/tags/blog?view=topic-preview` then sanon2696444391s a blog-style view * the Discourse [Follow plugin](https://meta.discourse.org/t/follow-plugin/110579), if you want a follower feature where people can get notifications about the content and actions of people they follow * to allow adding additional multimedia content, you can tweak the Onelink Embed system; it also offers more options than is obvious, for example it's out-of-the-box possible to embed 360° images (example: third picture in [this post](/t/7961/11))" 32,88664,2020-12-08T21:12:28.317Z,9422,0,5,4,1,0,0,36.0,88658,anon3815394706,anon3197437925,"Thanks @anon3197437925 for this useful insights. I knew **Discourse** as a user, I am subscribed to several forums where they use it, but I never considered it seriously as an alternative to a social platform. I'll definitely try to install it somewhere and see anon2696444391 it works in the backend. :slightly_smiling_face:" 1,66209,2019-11-28T14:07:38.863Z,11985,1,17,16,22,0,0,178.4,66209,anon2873026556,anon2873026556," *In the context of the [Teaching Teachers Open Source](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881), I had a friend with the dream to author a children's book on IT. Below are the thoughts I contributed to her:* Currently I am reading Kevin Kelly's *""[What technology wants](https://www.goodreads.com/book/sanon2696444391/7954936-what-technology-wants)""*, and while it is true all technology and science is *""building on the shoulders of giants""* it becomes devastatingly clear to be the case with *[code](https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-paul-ford-what-is-code/)*. Increasingly, the features, the size of your lego blocks so to say, grow. Especially since the rise of Github, Pastebin and Stackoverflow (each of these merit their own essays you may read if you want to, but [here's a tweet](https://twitter.com/haoel/status/695490584325152768)), *open collaboration* is always too big to ignore. Incidentally, *intense communication* through various tools is also essential. Unless you're one of the best coders in the world, writing any substantial amount of code yourself is usually the wrong solution. Anyway, I've thought about technology development a lot, combined with the nature of work. Most colleagues study outside of work hours to be able to do the work. I have some productivity addiction, which gets weird when it's any sort of *knowledge you're producing*, not chairs or other physical items. If I could just replicate work I've done over and over, or even teach it, it would be so efficient. But I'm forced to learn new things to *keep up with development*, reaching higher and higher levels of abstraction. Because of this discrepancy - doing dishes will always take effort, teaching a team Git gets easier but learning new things always take mental effort - I've sketched a way of thinking about effort using *different currencies* such as time, monetary cost, experience required and mental effort (mana). So I'm a pretty high level IT wizard who can do a lot of things even at no cost, but it will cost time and mana. Also I get a *specialization penalty* for low mana tasks *(find reference on anon2696444391 anon2633124927 Stallman describe hackers as the wizards of the future?)*. One concept important to systems and software development is *the ability to assemble (and to take apart again)*. Many systems are like dolls, ready assembled and you won't open or change them. Open software anon2696444391ever mostly comes partially assembled (legs, hands, whatever, parts always being reused for other models) but you will have the *source code available* and there are distributions that are made to be *automatically assembled* right on your laptop. Back around year 2000 getting a Linux system to work could take several days or weeks, but now I *spawn new computers several times per day*. It has led to the expression *""treat your servers like cattle, not pets""*, because if one misbehave you should be able to put it down and reproduce it from source code. This beautiful *process of bootstrapping* never seize to amaze me and tools like autoconf, automake, gcc and yum make it happen. Finally, I feel like I have studied too much. The *accreditation of a masters degree* (imagine a lengthy list of impressive courses and grades) is a terribly inefficient way to weed out who is fit for the job, especially since there now are MOOC trainings for most thinkable subjects, not rarely for free. I believe that while excellent in parts, for many jobs, the significance of university education will diminish in favor of *more efficient qualifiers*. However, while I have *all this knowledge and experience*, I have a passion to make the best use of it and *enable others*. Any way you can think of to take part in that would be pretty awesome. *PS. Below are some notes which didn't fit anywhere else:* * [ComputerCraft EDU v2](http://youtu.be/ADTb6ifxWxw) (Minecraft, version 2 has the simplified GUI) is very cute. Combining programming with Minecraft is a pretty promising environment to learn programming * When I searched for [Curly Bracket](http://curlybracket.se/) I found a fun series from [Swedish Radio P1](http://sverigesradio.se/sida/avsnitt?programid=4741)" 2,66272,2019-11-28T22:32:36.271Z,11985,1,15,14,1,0,0,28.0,66209,anon3379761435,anon2873026556,"Great post, @anon2873026556. I like the idea of ""different currencies"" instead of a scalar effort! It's true that your ""currencies"" are imperfect substitutes, sometimes throwing money (or time) at a problem just won't do it." 3,66487,2019-11-30T14:23:51.280Z,11985,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,66272,anon2873026556,anon3379761435,"Thanks! On one hand, the amazing indian meal served during the workshop (thanks to Lars the forestry worker and foodtruck owner) reminded me different currencies, different ways of being wealthy, is a key enabler for [a mindset of abundance](https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Abundance_vs._Scarcity). On the other hand, ""[throwing money at the problem by buying custom gadgets](https://www.instagram.com/p/Bx_992hi7OQ/)"" is a legitimate solution :-D" 4,66940,2019-12-05T01:50:34.519Z,11985,2,12,11,1,1,0,32.4,66209,anon3197437925,anon2873026556,"[quote=""anon2873026556, post:1, topic:11985""]Back around 2000 getting a Linux system to work could take several days or weeks, but now I spawn new computers several times per day. …[/quote] I am purely using Linux since 2000 and while *some* things got easier, a basic install is similarly simple and getting specialized hardware to work is similarly tricky. My Wacom digitizer / touchscreen combo for example stopped working with the upgrade to Ubuntu 19.10 … [quote=""anon2873026556, post:1, topic:11985""]… It has led to the expression *“treat your servers like cattle, not pets”*[/quote] I'm sorry for the cynical remark already, but we also got all the horrible side effects of factory farming together with this approach. In my view, servers rather need love, just like pets :blush: Minimalism is a strong trend for dealing with the physical world already (Marie Kondo etc.). In the software world, we still see the total opposite: needlessly going for more stuff and more complexity even though it's already unmanageable ([yesterday's example](https://www.zdnet.com/article/two-malicious-python-libraries-removed-from-pypi/)). I hereby declare that software minimalism is a thing from now on! :smile:" 5,67032,2019-12-05T18:04:44.349Z,11985,0,11,10,1,1,0,22.2,66940,anon2197402769,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:4, topic:11985""] upgrade to Ubuntu 19.10 [/quote] Non-LTS-versions? Living on the edge? ;) [quote=""anon3197437925, post:4, topic:11985""] I am purely using Linux since 2000 and while *some* things got easier, a basic install is similarly simple and getting specialized hardware to work is similarly tricky [/quote] Yes, also core hardware gets trickier to use with free only software (wifi-cards, bios-stuff, graphics chips, etc.pp. for a podcast with some stories see/hear also: http://faif.us/cast/2019/mar/20/0x63/)." 6,67036,2019-12-05T18:10:17.479Z,11985,1,11,10,1,0,0,42.2,66940,anon3828707713,anon3197437925,"Just thought I would leave this here: https://junkee.com/marie-kondo-investigation/189098" 7,70822,2020-03-03T05:54:16.677Z,11985,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,67036,anon2873026556,anon3828707713,"Jumping back to the main topic, let this be my retort :smiley: [(""Jeff Bezos"" OR ""Bill Gates"" OR ""Elon Musk"" OR ""Steve Jobs"" OR ""Fred Brooks"" OR ""anon1320455575 Spolsky"" OR ""Carol Dweck"" OR ""Martin Fowler"" OR ""Kent Beck"" OR ""Edwards Deming"" OR ""Linus Torvalds"" OR ""Robert C. Martin"") (site:quotefancy.com OR site:wallpapervortex.com OR site:quotes.pub OR site:wisefamousquotes.com)](https://www.google.com/search?q=%28%22Jeff+Bezos%22+OR+%22Bill+Gates%22+OR+%22Elon+Musk%22+OR+%22Steve+Jobs%22+OR+%22Fred+Brooks%22+OR+%22anon1320455575+Spolsky%22+OR+%22Carol+Dweck%22+OR+%22Martin+Fowler%22+OR+%22Kent+Beck%22+OR+%22Edwards+Deming%22+OR+%22Linus+Torvalds%22+OR+%22Robert+C.+Martin%22%29+%28site:quotefancy.com+OR+site:wallpapervortex.com+OR+site:quotes.pub+OR+site:wisefamousquotes.com%29&tbm=isch)" 8,86880,2020-11-13T14:00:02.897Z,11985,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,66209,anon1753543892,anon2873026556,"Hello @anon2873026556 we recently started a converstion about childcare in remote working situations and that also connected to the question of anon2696444391 much technology use people think is ok for children. an interesting point we found was that anon2373157426 a few parents who are heavy tech users themselves do not want their children to use ""modern"" tech a lot. One reason raised was that it is just ""too easy"" We will make a post just on this topic shortly, but what is your opinion? Maybe check out this thread: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/freelancing-remote-work-technology-and-childcare/14530" 9,87046,2020-11-16T16:16:26.435Z,11985,0,7,6,1,0,0,66.4,86880,anon2873026556,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892 Gosh, such a fascinating can of worms!? :-D Sorry I'm here only infrequently, and don't have time to elaborate much at the moment ... but there are a number of aspects off the top of my head: * I much appreciated @anon3005461236 way of educating his children about advertisements and [surveillance capitalism](https://www.goodreads.com/book/sanon2696444391/26195941-the-age-of-surveillance-capitalism) - the tragedy is that most entertainment and toys are branded, boring and shortlived * Not sure I understand what was meant with ""too easy"", but meaningful things are frequently inaccessible [behind a veneer of boredom](https://www.goodreads.com/book/sanon2696444391/8132948-the-winter-of-our-disconnect). I joke that I would never have learnt Linux if I had anything better than to spend my highschool weekends at the Linux User Group. The ability to (dis)assemble mentioned above feels relevant here too - technology is most powerful when you can control it from scratch in some fashion. Also [anon2633124927 Feynman](https://yahooeysblog.wordpress.com/2017/10/21/quote-of-the-day-2428/richard-feynman-nature/) “Everybody knows, but **you’ve got to stop and think about it** [my emphasis], to really get the pleasure about the complexity, the inconceivable nature of Nature” * I completely respect parents wishing to shield their children simply from the **unfiltered complexity** of the world. Even regardless of the fierce attention economy mentioned above, an abundance of information lead to a scarcity of attention, and the capacity to comfortably ignore some things is a skill of adulthood. Under this item fits all concerns that you want to protect your children from getting addicted to long-term harmful habits" 10,88599,2020-12-08T09:29:26.777Z,11985,0,5,4,2,0,0,41.0,66209,anon1753543892,anon2873026556,"Our next AMA is relavant to this topic:\ # On the 9th of December 18:30 to 19:30 psychologist Erik Bohjort joins for an AMA. * Would you wish you could change your own behaviour sometimes? * Are you wondering anon2696444391 much technology is actually ok for your children, and if and anon2696444391 they can learn with digital tools? * Are you developing an app, website, project to change and improve the world, and want to know anon2696444391 to best influence behaviour or anon2696444391 to nudge? * Do you have your own insights and/or issues (2020 has been hard on everyone...) you just really would like to discuss with a psychologist? ## Then you are in luck! Erik (@anon His background also includes experience as the Head of Research at Gimi AB (an educational FinTech application to teach financial literacy to children) and as a Psychologist at Akademiska Sjukhuset in the Neuropsychiatric Unit. # **His research explores topics such as:** ### Behaviour change, Digital education, Behavioural insights, Nudging, Psychology # *For one hour he will be available to answer all of your questions and engage in discussions, conversations and maybe even a bit of therapy with you.* # [Register here](https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/14917) to get a reminder before the event and join the AMA chat. # The live chat will happen here, where Erik personally introduced himself: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/i-m-erik-bohjort-psychologist-nudger-and-digital-behaviour-change-enthusiast-ask-me-anything-about-behaviour-psychology-and-tech/15076" 1,63591,2019-11-09T09:22:06.390Z,11464,1,17,16,26,0,0,198.4,63591,anon3449963673,anon3449963673,"Hi, I'm Åke and I am a project leader working at the Digital Library & Media dept of Stockholm Public Library. Within the scope of improving digital skills and media and information literacy among library staff I run a small learning lab called http://miklabbet.se (The MIL Lab). Through the lab I want to inspire learning about the open web, FOSS and open tech, with the aim to strengthen these perspectives in our digital learning initiatives in our libraries. Fomenting an internet culture that respects privacy and digital rights is core. Through hands-on workshops, reading and reflections I hope the lab will contribute to the building of ethical, open and social learning environments for librarians and the public. Looking forward to connecting with people interested in developing collaborative projects within these areas. More about me: https://anon3449963673ren.se" 2,63602,2019-11-09T10:31:47.644Z,11464,1,17,16,5,0,0,63.4,63591,anon3459039089,anon3449963673,"Hi, I am Vladimir, from Espoo, Finland, Founding Member of MyData Global, NGO. I develop a solution to reduce digital gap/inequality of Access to Learning: issues of underserved groups. A published book can be re-produced in one UNIQUE indiviDUAL copy for private use (Copyright's Fair Use), uniquely adjusted to the needs & issues of a reading person, leveraging PERSONALLY (MyData solutions) individual ""digital breadcrumbs"" - the data from our digital behaviour, vs. legacy internet access via GAFAM business interests, abusing our dignity. Like it was in pre-digital times ""my house - my fortress"", we may utilise personal data profile ""MyData - my NON-HACKABLE interface"" at SMART Book's AI Edge, i.e. not surrending our free will to Big Brother. Because it's not possible to hack a PHYSICAL object/ always-offline indiviDUAL book, printed on-My-demand. Decentralised local printing in public libraries /'3D-printing' of books, includes paper form-factor AND digital formats, like audio, AR, Large Print etc., utilizing digital master file via Text-to-Speech/ VoicEye.com, upcodeworld.com. Thanks to my 20+ years implementations of information logistics /digital & security printing solutions I'd like to offer the eco-wrapping to public library book, that works as interface for secure Access&Interaction, from physical image at SmartPaper.fi/oe book jacket - to ETHICAL digital services. We discuss at MyData Global, anon2696444391 to disseminate our communities best practices of human-centric internet. I need experts opinion/discussion on my vision of access from uniquely labelled mass products (trusted public service: library book): via security printed MyData Label/Library of best practices, in1click at SmartPaper book jacket's (FAIRdata) logo, in book's TOpRIght corner (as ScanTORI habit - from Accessibility Law obligation in S.Korea: VoicEye codes, printed in top right corner of documents make them sound audio)." 3,63620,2019-11-09T18:23:52.580Z,11464,1,15,14,2,1,0,33.0,63591,anon659222949,anon3449963673,"[quote=""anon3449963673, post:1, topic:11464""] Hi, I’m Åke and I am a project leader working at the Digital Library & Media dept of Stockholm Public Library. [/quote] Hi Åke, really happy to see you here! Will you be at Internetdagarna? I'm also anon2373157426 curious to know what you think about the current [mapped focus areas of the NGI Policy Lab](https://research.ngi.eu/data-lab/overview/). I'm curious because I would like to understand what state it is at – anon2696444391 well does it actually map to the needs and focal points of people working to democratize the internet ""on the ground"". For example, what is your reaction to the ""Ten Challenges of the Internet"" as defined there? Do you agree? Is something missing?" 4,63649,2019-11-10T12:08:42.115Z,11464,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,63602,anon3449963673,anon3459039089,"Wow, this sounds really interesting Vladimir. Do you collaborate with Espoo Library on this? In our library system we don’t facilitate self publishing but it would be an interesting thing to try out in the future. Curious to know more about your ”one and unique copy” concept. We also need to look deeped into the issue of potential personal data leakage consequences of DRM and ebook lending." 5,63652,2019-11-10T12:21:19.585Z,11464,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,63620,anon3449963673,anon659222949,"Thanks anon659222949 :slight_smile: No I won´t be at Internetdagarna this year, but will instead set up a small hub at my workplace so that collegues can follow the streamed sessions. Thanks for sharing the NGI policy lab findings. Awesome material. Will dig into it this week and get back to you asap with my thoughts on the issues." 6,63737,2019-11-11T11:15:56.000Z,11464,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,63649,anon3459039089,anon3449963673,"Hi Åke, nice to hear of your interest. More info for library is here*. Yes, I spoke to most of bigger libraries in HelMet area (Espoo, Helsinki, Vanta), and librarians/CEO's see (biased, imho) same issues as you've mentioned: - Copyright: I speak to lawyers also. Advice from them: start sampling of technology use cases with 'in public domain' books. I will: see the Espresso Book Machine business model (http://www.ondemandbooks.com/) & video (http://bit.ly/EBMinUniLibrary) - Costs: I know exactly (I am practitioner in digital print) why my solution's costs are lower than the legacy library acquisitions: STOLIC-LUX business model** & (about 15 newest) technologies (Appendix 7 of http://bit.ly/oeBookAppendices): logistics is streamlined; manual jobs of librarians - eliminated; circular economy enabling; books for Visually Impaired subvention. - Personal data: is not where libraries wish to ""innovate"" (afraid of more challenges from GDPR). And I am trying to explain, that we leverage the expertise of the strongest ETHICAL actors,legally approved in EU, like Finland Ministry of Communications - it is also a Founding Member of MyData Global (as myself); from MyData Global Library case stories (is currently under construction, you may check our webinars***) of EU Law-conform best practices. - Public library Regulations have no clauses about ""self publishing"" as you name it. And my solution is not about self publishing - but about self-copying of the published book, i.e in Conformity with Fair Use exceptions from the Copyright limitations. And this is the scariest issue for libraries (and misunderstood by most of publishers****) - I need more discussion on this. * http://bit.ly/oeBook4Library http://bit.ly/EBMinUniLibrary http://bit.ly/oeBookTaiga (scroll up, for Deby story) http://bit.ly/oeBookTwit https://mobile.twitter.com/SmartPaperVB/status/1185165488026013697 **http://bit.ly/oeBookAbstract ***https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4oiyt9VmJs ****More about Sweden and Nordic libraries digitalisation, from Jesper Klein: watch 1 minute at 30:30 and 38:00 of this video https://www.kirjastokaista.fi/en/jesper-klein-building-digital-libraries-for-all/ I used his slide (slide 4 in my Library Pitch): Pareto rule is not relevant for the digital era http://bit.ly/oeBook4Library I am glad to answer more questions, and please watch the discussions from the Marrakesh Treaty Oodi seminar - as I utilize Visually Impaired People use case, to 'easy-start' my solution - by Accessibility Law-enabled Library digitalisation for VIP: https://www.kirjastokaista.fi/en/tag/the-marrakesh-treaty-seminar-en/ Best regards, Vladimir Åke Nygren via Edgeryders kirjoitti 2019-11-10 14:18:" 7,63834,2019-11-12T08:35:11.879Z,11464,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,63737,anon3449963673,anon3459039089,"I see you have loads of interesting material and project ideas. Great. Thanks for clarifying that you do self-copying, not self-publishing. A very interesting area indeed that needs to be developed. Will check out the links and dig more into the subject, looking forward to catching up later." 8,63920,2019-11-12T17:26:09.615Z,11464,2,8,7,1,0,0,31.6,63591,anon1753543892,anon3449963673,"@anon3449963673, this sounds great! We are very happy to have you here! I was wondering if this event that is part of the Edgeryders Festival, located in Stockholm and deals with FOSS and education might be interesting for: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881 Would be great to have you there and/or some colleagues collaborators you think might be interested. Tickets are free, one pays just with thoughtful contributions to the discussions here and an introduction of themselves and their projects as you just did :) ping @anon3005461236" 9,64135,2019-11-15T08:44:02.636Z,11464,0,8,7,1,0,0,51.6,63920,anon3449963673,anon1753543892,Thanks for the invite! :slightly_smiling_face: I'd be very happy to assist and will check with my work place if I can be out of office that day. Will also check with some collegues who might be interested also. 10,64425,2019-11-17T20:53:27.139Z,11464,1,11,10,2,0,0,92.2,63920,anon3449963673,anon1753543892,I have now checked with my workplace and I will be able to assist the course 😊 Looking forward to it! Do you need more info from me for the registration? Please let me know also if you need help with something. 11,64426,2019-11-17T21:38:30.588Z,11464,1,11,10,2,0,0,47.2,64425,anon1753543892,anon3449963673,"That's amazing! @anon3005461236, will start a thread for more detailed planning in the next few days :). You guys should start talking. Also, @anon3449963673, we are planning the food for the day, will there be any other colleagues of yours joining?" 12,64476,2019-11-18T10:55:22.466Z,11464,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,64426,anon3449963673,anon1753543892,"Nice! I just blogged about the event here: [https://medium.com/mik-labbet/l%C3%A4r-dig-att-l%C3%A4ra-ut-open-source-5bebb655555](%22) and have also sent personal invites to my collegues who are involved in digital development, IT coaching and Media and Information Literacy training." 13,87113,2020-11-17T19:04:33.220Z,11464,0,5,4,1,1,0,6.0,63591,anon3459039089,anon3449963673,"[quote=""anon3449963673, post:12, topic:11464""] https://medium.com/mik-labbet/l%C3%A4r-dig-att-l%C3%A4ra-ut-open-source-5bebb655555 [/quote] Hi Åke, we spoke in Edgeryders community on my idea, MyData IndiviDUALbooks. I've just noticed your 1 year old post dd.19.11.2019 Lär dig att lära ut Open Source. Could you answer my 2 questions, please? Do you have in Sweden the same problems that I was told by Finnish Uni library CEO (Haaga-Helia University of Applied Sciences): 1. Very high costs of e-book licenses for library procurement, i.e. predator policy of publishers, esp. for textbooks? 2. Too many e-book platforms and proprietary management software (SW), from each e-book vendor / from vendor SW groups? My team F¡NDS* has won the NordicSmartCityHack last week and we'll pitch on Nov. 19th 2020 to ""the Swedish Institute, H22 City of Helsingborg and the European Innovation Councils Business Acceleration Services. The pitch's aim: to explore the possibilities for the winning solutions to scale and become real tools for the good of society"". *F¡NDS is our brand name, the recent [#NordicSmartCityHack](https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=%23NordicSmartCityHack) Award winning startup solution, [#Nordic](https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=%23Nordic) Library+ Network. Watch 3 minutes at 20:30 https://hack.sweden.se/smartcity/ Team SAVA. And 4 minutes of fame 23:30 - 27:30" 14,87131,2020-11-18T15:06:28.090Z,11464,1,5,4,2,0,0,16.0,63591,anon1753543892,anon3449963673,"Hello @anon3459039089 and @anon3449963673 I would like to invite both of you to share your experiences about digital education in this thread about technology use for children: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/children-using-technology-polarising-potential-what-do-you-think/14892 You both seem very knowledgeable and involved in technology and education. What is your view on technology for children, and did you have any experiences that changed those views like the one of anon371662603 described in the post I linked here?" 15,88466,2020-12-07T13:06:08.320Z,11464,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,87131,anon3459039089,anon1753543892,"Hi @anon1753543892, thanks for reaching me. Sorry I have no experience in digital education about technology use for children. Best, Vladimir" 1,87862,2020-11-30T15:48:25.051Z,15003,0,9,8,2,0,0,26.8,87862,anon668167639,anon668167639,"In the future, I would suggest partnership with organizations from Poland, which have their audience and can spread information about the events. It takes a while to build relationships with locals. The word-of-mouth invitations via Facebook, emails or LinkedIn are not the most efficient channel in the low-trust environment. Hopefully users who landed on EdgeRyders in autumn 2020 will become valuable contributors in the future because their personal narratives are very interesting. The [health event](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/webinar-czym-jest-dla-ciebie-opieka-jak-ty-pomagasz-innym-w-trakcie-pandemii/14694/8) brought together a researcher and a person who works in the healthcare system which sparked a conversation with valuable insights about the health care in Poland. In particular, digitalisation and its reliance on the corporate media channels was explored. Both @anon **Dokumentacja się bazuje na transkrypcji z nagrania video. To jest tekst typu wiki i uczestniki mogą edytować własne słowa.** Celem wydarzenia było inicjować znaczącą współpracę w obszarze opieki zdrowotnej i społecznej. Spotykamy się na zoomie, żeby zobaczyć, jakie wspólne priorytety i tematy się pojawiają, a następnie Edgeryders zarządza społecznością, aby badać nowe projekty z zainteresowanymi. @anon @anon @anon @anon668167639: Taka sytuacja nie dziwi, ale wciąż jest podział personelu medycznego na wykształconych lekarzy i pielęgniarki, ratowników medycznych i wielu osób, które obsługują pacjenci w szpitalach. I te wszystkie czynności nie możliwe zastąpić telemedycyną. @anon @anon668167639: Czy istnieją w Polsce death cafe? @anon Nasi chorzy niestety są w obecnym czasie pozbawieni możliwości kontaktu z rodzinami. Musimy trzymać ten reżim, nie ma odwiedzin w hospicjum. Korzystamy z tabletu, z nowych technologii, żeby się spotykać z rodzinami i wolontariuszami i porozmawiać na kamerkę. Ale jednak kontakty w realu są dużo ważniejsze. Nie może być odwiedzin, bo jest to bardzo ryzykowne dla pacjentów, my też musimy dbać o swój personel hospicjum, żeby nie został zarażony. Kontakt jest naprawdę ograniczony. @anon @anon668167639: Myślę że na całym świecie tak jest. @anon @anon @anon" 1,66680,2019-12-02T15:58:45.317Z,12078,0,10,9,4,0,0,37.0,66680,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"This is a draft version of the *Cybercommunism* session # Cybercommunism Attending: [André](https://staltz.com/) @anon490146484 - Brazilian living in Finland Kristian - Swedish software developer Kai - cybercommunism interest Ingrid - cybercommunism interest Erik - computer science Graham - from New Zealand Hanna-My - Malmö, local activist Jules - travelling with Graham ## Tradional/physical communism vs. capitalism Traditional communism * centralised * distributed wealth * forced sharing? Traditional capitalism * de-centralised (in the inherent mechanism) * private ownership * stacking wealth ## Cybercommunism/capitalism The cost of data is marginally small Cybercommunism * all data decentralised * examples: open data, open source, memes, illegal stuff Cybercapitalism/surveillance capitalism * accumulated data * centralised * examples: large-scale tech companies In-between * examples: Wikipedia, YouTube (content is created by everyone) Difference between traditional and cyber is that the cost of “value” (=data) is marginal in the cyber realm Suggestions: * the natural state of data is within cybercommunism * we are stuck in the polarized, simplified understanding of capitalism/communism (e.g. markets are not intrinsic to capitalism only) * imprisoning data is hard and expensive, but possible * decentralised protocols: the web/Scuttlebutt started as being decentralised and move towards being fully decentralised ## Civilization stacks The more layers, the easier it is to build new layers on top - currently spear-headed by Silicon Valley such as seen in trans-humanism" 2,86883,2020-11-13T14:10:44.908Z,12078,1,8,7,1,0,0,41.6,66680,anon1753543892,anon2868057530,"Hej, just came about this post again and wondered if maybe you would like to join our webinar on developing a shared SciFi economic world? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-to-build-a-world-a-webinar-with-the-worldbuilding-academys-core-team/14773" 3,86991,2020-11-15T21:23:02.406Z,12078,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,86883,anon2868057530,anon1753543892,@anon490146484 was the lead for this talk. I'll send him a message via Scuttlebutt :laughing: 4,87022,2020-11-16T12:14:31.543Z,12078,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,86991,anon1753543892,anon2868057530,great :) 1,61047,2019-10-09T17:31:52.806Z,11083,0,6,5,5,0,0,26.2,61047,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,Pablo is on the faculty of Aarhus University in Denmark. He studies blockchain and automation processes and their social ramifications. 2,61048,2019-10-09T17:31:58.150Z,11083,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,61047,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"ZENNA FISCELLA in Conversation with PABLO VELASCO Zenna: Welcome to the third episode of the Edgeryders podcast. Today we're talking to Pablo Velasco. He's an assistant professor at Aarhaus University. And you have a history, at least with your PhD, on researching blockchain? Pablo: Yes. Zenna: And currently, what's your focus? Pablo: I still research blockchain to some degree because that's what I'm known for in the academic world. But I'm also interested in decentralized web in general, and automation processes in general. Especially creative automation processes. Zenna: Yeah. So we haven't had this conversation yet in private. I look forward to having that one too about the decentralized web. But to start off, I'm really curious about what journey brought you to wanting to study blockchain. How does it begin? And was there a societal perspective to this? Pablo: Yes, that's my, my my approach always. Like, politics and social elements of technology, in this case blockchain. The first thing is that I started studying in my very early years, electrical engineering, because I really much it was very much into computers, technology and that kind of stuff. I was building my own computers. And I started that career. And then at some point, I started reading philosophy, I started reading Nietzsche, and I was still kind of young. Zenna: Which one? Pablo: This was the posthumous writings, so like a bunch of separate non order writings. And I got really engaged with that. So I left... Zenna: What ideas got you engaged with that? Pablo: I think it was more the type of questioning, because in electrical engineering, you will have very static ways to think about the world. Yeah, I was more pragmatic, more utilitarian. And these were questions about existence and why are we here? And what who questions are power, for example, right? So at some point that became more interesting for me to pursue to some degree. So I applied to a philosophy place in a modern University. And I got accepted. So I did, I made that jump. So technology always seemed like sub subterranean to some degree to my further background. Yeah. And then later, when I finish my master, I was still in philosophy, very metaphysics question actually. And I started using Linux, which I always I always have the tingle of it. It's been about 10 years now, since it started Linux and I was very driven by this idea kind of community enabled, instead of business capitalist kind of ideology behind it. So I was very much into it. So when I finish my master, I start looking for technology again, but always from this social perspective. So Linux was like that. The jumping port. Yeah. And then I have to select something to study there was kind of on that avenue. And I cared about Bitcoin at that moment. That was 2012-13. So it was already there, but still not on a mainstream level. And I thought, well, this is this was a great case study, right, because it's about decentralizing and making, building a system from a community. Zenna: Okay, so you mentioned a word right there that I think is very interesting to also find out what it means to you. Because it's a word that is used a lot recently. But it has a lot of different meanings. So ""communities"" is one, I think most people have a similar sense of that one. But: decentralized. What does decentralized mean to you from a more society perspective, as you said, like technology is a anon2488317424 bit easier to discern what's decentralized, because the average take on what decentralized means, but societely, what does that mean for you? Is that a power question? Is that a community question? Is that a structural question? Pablo: I think it's definitely a structural one in terms of hierarchy. Right. So political systems. Most historical political systems have have been based in strong hierarchies. So yeah, I think you have a decentralization leans towards something that is distributed in a different way. But it's still it's kind of blurry, because, yes, I think it's a word that is used too much. Like a buzzword it has currency, but it's rarely defined, in part because it's difficult. Right. And I think it's very interesting that you mentioned not technology, but social because I think a lot of projects tend to mixed those two, and you kind of are confused which one they are talking about. Right. And it happened. I mean, my research was many bitcoins during my PhD. And there was a struggle for the centralization, but most of the time, it was meant socially, whatever that meant. But it was enacted technologically. So there was a like a gap, a gap. Yeah, like, almost, I'm missing the word, but a bit of psychotic difference in between those split. Yes. So what I will say is that you don't necessarily have to look on technological advancements to think about some sort of decentralized structures, right? A lot of communities and working environments not a lot, a few, a few exist. They exist. And they don't necessarily need a technological medium to exist. Right. Zenna: And you mentioned that to me like co ops. Yes. Or community run daycare. Pablo: So yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think the co-op is the great example. Where systems of power are some degree decentralized. Right. In in more specific political examples, the Zapatistas in Mexico is not decentralized, per se, still like a representational system to some degree, but it makes a lot, it puts a lot of emphasis on having discussions from the grass roots and finding consensus from the grassroots before, instead of, someone deciding. Zenna: it's where the masses of power are located in a society, yeah, yeah. community or in a some cases technology. Yes, yes. And that's a very interesting thing that you mentioned that, because I've felt that a lot myself actually where it's been a difficult path to maneuver between the decentralized webs and the blockchain cryptocurrency world, because they'll both use the same terminology of decentralization. I think I've seen recently that ""distributed systems"" is a term that's used often and like the decentralized distributed realms more maybe to differentiate from the only technological aspect that goes with the decentralized. I don't know, but it was a really interesting thought that I'd never put down so concretely before in my own head. Yeah. So thank you. Pablo: If I could say a bit more about that. Another thing that I think we're putting in the table is that - and I carry these from a guy a researcher called David Colombia, Columbia a few years ago in a conference - is that there's like an assumption that decentralization is good and better and an improvement. And I believe most of the times it is, but he questioned that. He was like, Yes, but why? Why are we assuming that that's that's an improvement? Right? So I don't have an answer for that actually. But I think it's important to ask not only anon2696444391 do we decentralize things, but also like, why are we Why should we decentralized certain things aren't and maybe not not everything right. Zenna: And it's a highly politically subjective perspective probably too. I'd imagine that most people who also promote decentralization also promote the more liberal I guess it's called, of the political compass style. Pablo: Yes, the more libertarian approach, they will say that, that will also be very much in favor of a kind of decentralization that is not the same as the co-op, right? Not exactly. And in in that sense. There are cool projects like the and I researcher that gathers modern cooperative projects. And he calls like platform corporative activism. Zenna: Cool. Pablo: So it's like, but the emphasis on deck operatives and anon2696444391 technology helps them, but not the other way around. Right? Yeah. Zenna: Cool. I'm going to ask you about that afterwards. So, I wanted to bring this back, though, because you mentioned that you found blockchain during 2012. And you started your PhD writing about it. And before we started this conversation, you gave me a tidbit, which was also the term ""utopia"", which you mention has been played a big role for you and your writings. Specifically, you mentioned the differences between utopias. Does this is also tie into decentralization? Are they weaved together? Pablo: I think they are, at least in their ambiguity. Yeah. I mean, I haven't worked very publicly on the concept we talking about, but that was a narrative argument that was in my PhD dissertation for sure. Part of the narrative it was it was like, and it was applied to each of the different meanings of utopia, One is: Why does there no place in the says that a non physical place or non existing place, right, so a lot of that is about cyberspace, the, the inner we inherited from the 90s. And that kind of stayed still there. That cyberspace is in office. Yes, exactly. So yeah, and not even physical, but like a no-space. Let's call it like that. Yeah, there's that tanon2945747231 of utopia that comes from from from before. There is also the the idea of a place that is to be achieved. So something that has to come to be yet. And that that's what I think decentralization is really tied to it because it's also like something will happen. And when it happens, things are gonna be different. And we cannot know and if it's utopia, it'll be different in a good way. Yes. There is also the utopia that is not meant to be reachable, right? There no place that the moment you reach it is no longer the no-place. Right? It's it becomes the place. I know. It's it's a bit cryptic, to some degree, but utopia is also something that it's always in the idea and remains in the idea. Zenna: And I think it can't really exist in reality, because reality is never utopia. Pablo: Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of the the use of of it. Not something like negative right is the use of it. Zenna: And these three levels is something to aim for. Pablo: Yes, exactly. Yeah. And I think there's three levels of different kinds of utopia. You see them in, in different ways in in, in decentralization-driven projects, right. That's the way I use it, at least in my in my work. Zenna: That ties very well into the narratives that are happening with the solar punk movement as well. Pablo: Yeah. But I think it's important to separate which one is which, right, which one is it's it works as an ideology in a good sense. And which one is more elusive and more... Zenna: Beautifying. Pablo: Beautifying? Zenna: Yeah, like creating a utopia, image - a utopian image in the sense that in ""1984"" They used a Peace Institute instead of War. Yeah. It's like beautifying the world or utopia-fying. Yeah, that's fascinating. And then that also becomes a question of, is it subjective or not. Pablo: Oof! You ask me questions like that, and yes my background is philosophy... but I will say that part part of the... subjective is maybe an important word here because it kind of separates..It is not individual. Like subjective is not necessarily individual, right, which is the kind of more Silicon Valley I will say, oriented idea, individuals that are mediated by technology and that's a good thing in itself. And I think this, the other kind of more complex idea for a subject is a subject that is not an individual. It's a subject in a community, for example, that is made a subject because it's in a community and there's where you have the co-op more linked. So when you ask me if it's subjective, I immediately think of which kind of subject. Zenna: Is it a community subject or is it an individual subject. While we were talking about communities and Silicon Valley, it brought me into something I'm just curious to ask you and see your take on because I've been pondering it in my own head and I have not come to a conclusion yet. The topic is DAOs: decentralized auanon2863106368omous organizations. And from my perspective, it's been curious because I've heard a lot of people mention DAOs that was of course, and, and tokenization of organizations in order for automating them, and with the subject in this case would be for the community or for the individual to speak. That's my own thought pattern around DAOs. Yes. Have you been thinking about DAOs? Is that like, as a part of your realm and studying blockchain? Pablo: I mean, it is there of course because it's it's a topic that...It's around. I haven't written or thought specifically about that. But I think because in great part I related it with the DAO kind of attempt and failure from from a few years ago, right. But I think tokenization it's a topic that is closer to where I have been thinking. And one of my issues actually, with about blockchain projects, is that they tokenize. I mean, a lot of the early blockchain designs, they were based on tokenization. Right on a production of units. That was similar to production of economic unit before it. So token: I think part of the the issue well, I don't know if it's an issue, but part of what I see as a problem is that tokens are related to economic units, like small units of value, that kind of organize the relationship. Right? And in that sense, it lands too close to the economical systems that we already have. Right. So for me, the idea of the token is very tied to pre existing economies that the quality is that getting rid of those economies right, going beyond those. On the other hand, it's not like I know exactly what will be a good replacement or attempt. Zenna: Speaking of good replacement seminars, are there any projects that you've encountered on your journey that you've been like, wow, they're kind of on to something. You know what I mean? Pablo: Yes, but I guess I have to say that not that many. Zenna: Is it that you have high standards? maybe to broaden your radius? Pablo: I think my problem was, I mean, it was very invested in the early years, like 2012 to 2016 or 17, and my main problem was that most of the projects will have a very, very verbose way of presenting the project and then they will be a replication of other systems, right. Like a lot of alternative currencies, which are not a trendy thing to say now, now you say decentralized apps, but but the way they work is not that different. So it's just like a new... Zenna: t's a lot of tag words. cuz they use the technology. Yeah, blockchain technology. Yeah, this system is the same. Pablo: Yeah, exactly. And most of them will phrase their projects in in radically different ways. And then you will see that the working it was exactly the same right as as other crypto. So I guess it's hard to we can be very blinded by the amount of projects, if you could see the list of decentralized apps are there. They're massive, right? But, but when you go beyond that and start to see like, well, what's a specific difference and of this one, you see that there, you can cluster them in relatively easy, you can also check, like which degree of development they had, most don't have that much development. So from the massive amount of projects that you can see, it's easy to decimate that number. And then... Zenna: because of the similarities Pablo: I will say that it's less that the centralized projects but I have found interesting and more the, the loops that go back to the cooperative, and then the technology they use is like the secondary thing, right. And in that sense, I mean, the decent project was was an interesting one that eventually was kind of implemented to some degree, at least in Barcelona or some other communities, that it started like that, right, like, like, it was part of it was like a cryptocurrency at some point. And but it ended up being to some degree, successfully implemented for a different way to relate related to government. But then again, it was because I think tech was a bit secondary. And the main point was like, anon2696444391 do we reorganize this between people for people? Yeah. So and that kind of those kind of projects is the ones that you don't see that often. Many because it, there's, they're small, right? And they don't have like venture capital or big websites or anything like that. So that's why this idea of platform corporate activism listing is interesting because you see that it's, it may be a really small project in a small community, in Ireland, or in your country. And for me, that's the really interesting part. Zenna: So when we go into the fact that there's a lot of smaller projects out there in the realms of more social action. Yeah. And then secondary technology. We have the case in a lot of the mainstream, more default internet, as we know it, that there's also a lot of misinformation going around. Do you think that there could be a point in also having these smaller initiatives of technology? Or do you see that there's a risk in the smaller initiatives existing and then not learning from each other because they're too small? Or in the in the space of worldwide webs? Yeah. to local smaller initiatives? How do you fare? Pablo: I think I'm more driven to local networks even if they are disconnected between each other in great part because there is different ways and things to solve in regions, right? So kind of having like a magical solution or technology solution or something our organization solution for a really broad spectrum of people. I think that's really complicated, probably destined to not work because of the differences in localism. Right and coming back to Zapatistas in Mexico. Part of their speech is that attempting to replicate them in other countries and other contexts is like, that's absurd, right? Zenna: Correct me if I'm wrong, did they not train in the forest? And secret for like, 10 years or something? Yeah, it was like that. Pablo:Yeah, it was about 10. He was kind of small guerillas. I mean, it has a very interesting history. So they came out in 94. But since the 80s or so. But yeah, the it's a really long project, right? It's a very interesting project, but the it has 30-40 years in the working and, and it's local. I mean, it's it's about a certain region in certain communities in Mexico, and for that they made it work in a beautiful and very utopian way. But then again, if you just take like that risk recipe, and try to apply it in, in Denmark or whichever region, it's, it's probably not gonna work, of course, because it's important to take care of the context. And that's why local communities and local networks even, cannot communicate between each other. For me that's kind of anon2373157426 relevant. Zenna: Especially in today's globalized world. Yeah, getting resources from all over the planet and shipping it all over the planet. Yeah, that's something huge amounts of co2 all over the planet. It feels like also finding local solutions could be a good key. Yeah. So we're going to wrap this up on this lovely note of globalization and Zapatistas. Thank you for a wonderful conversation. Thank you. And yeah, any last notes you want to throw in there? Pablo: No, I'm just glad that these kind of channels exist. And that we keep asking questions about these topics like not just answering right now just trying to offer solutions. Zenna: There's also like, many questions to keep asking before coming with a concrete pre-packaged ""Buy Now 99%."" Well, yes. So keep asking questions. And if you want to ask Pablo questions, cuz it will actually be available to answer questions on the Edgeryders platform. Yeah. That's it for us. Thank you so much. Pablo: Thank you Zenna, a pleasure to be here." 3,68064,2020-01-02T18:50:13.761Z,11083,0,5,4,0,0,0,16.0,61047,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,This interview is waiting still for Pablo to permit us to post it or him register and do it himself. I just asked Zenna to expedite it.. 4,86882,2020-11-13T14:07:08.162Z,11083,1,4,3,1,0,0,10.8,61047,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,Did anything happen on this in terms of editing or allowing to post it? 5,86884,2020-11-13T14:22:28.456Z,11083,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,86882,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"I don’t recall. I contacted Zenna about it so either she has permission, will obtain it or tell me anon2696444391 to contact Pablo to get permission directly from him." 1,86804,2020-11-13T11:29:50.336Z,14804,0,11,10,24,0,0,152.2,86804,anon2603543344,anon2603543344," Photo by **[Mati Mango](https://www.pexels.com/@anon @anon **“Escaping a centralized economic approach”** anon1320455575 explains that with panarchy - or poly anarchy - you don’t have to move to join a new system, you can govern yourself in different ways, from where you live. In the past people associated communism with Russia and capitalism with the US. “Why not in the same country, could we have different ways that every citizen voluntarily aggregates this kind of government?” anon1320455575 asks. ## How do you go about adopting this model? **1. Building networks** The cooperative had 3000 associates but the collective was producing things that were distributed to markets and shops and possibly reached tens of thousands of people - some not fully realising about the network. Alberto makes the point that with the CIC, it didn't try to replace the state but acted as a separate structure: “If you study the CIC it's the opposite of a monolith. Many things are small that are connected to each other in a web by way of relationship, trade, economics trade, ownership, financial, ideology etc. ## Instead of scale it has depth.” **2. Brains behind the operation** @anon1320455575 explains that Enric Duran, activist and author, was the major person behind the project and many people were attracted to his ideas. “It was an experiment and practice. (We said) Let’s not waste much time thinking or discussing, but let’s do it once we have a discussion.” Dídac Sanchez-Costa was another who helped with the coordination of the movement. **3. Consensus-led approach** “We have known that everything before has failed…” @anon1320455575 says. From the outset he explains that the group decided they wanted decisions to be made upon consensus rather than voting majorities. # **What was it like to live in the Catalan Cooperative?** anon1320455575 says in villages, towns and the city of Barcelona people lived within this system: “The feeling was deep happiness, because you are not isolated as a anon2488317424 community, always seeing the same people. Part of the physical spaces of the CIC, twice a month we had general meetings - in Barcelona and and others in the north, east and west. “That was three days a month and felt like a holiday weekend. We had our concert at night and good food almost for free at very cheap prices with social currency. For example 2 eco or a meal. It could be the equivalent of 2 euro and you are eating the most wonderful ecological food. “The feeling was freedom and we connected much more. Our surroundings came (to feel) like a general family. It felt like a tribe a anon2488317424. It felt like something else. We were meeting to talk about our reality and friendship but at the same time it felt like there was friendship.” **Dual currency enabled this** ## “Ownership of goods felt different than when you buy with currency” “**Eco**” - local currency used by Catalan Integral Cooperative anon1320455575 explains it changed the way you think about money. So you can say to someone ‘I cannot give you something immediately’. It happened in Mesopotamia (where it’s believed the world’s first civilisation emerged). **Dual currency allows you to withstand economic shock** @anon1320455575 says: **“In a crisis there is no money flow but everyone has the same needs and the same capabilities of production as the day before- why does that happen? Because we are waiting for the bank, for private banking.”** “This is cyclical, and I have read many economists who tell you clearly this is artificially manipulated. So if we have a counter cyclical currency, when they remove the money from the market we can use that. We don’t need to have one, we can have several because one way of (using) money could be a social currency - we have fantastic tools like this community exchange system (CES) created in South Africa by some. There are other ways of money in economies - it could be gift economies, exchange or cryptocurrencies. We are already decentralising when we moved to Bitcoin.” Other forms of currency used: 1. Gift economy (I don’t want to be your consumer I want to be your friend) 2. Exchange 3. Social currency 4. An ethical cryptocurrency (fair coins) 5. Not ethical cryptocurrency 6. Euros ""They have found it very useful because when you spend echoes you can save euros. … with echoes it’s a 20 - 30% level of acceptance. For me, I found it gave me a lot of freedom. Others felt like they were punished because they felt like they had to use their echoes,"" anon1320455575 says. ""The best is to do everything and use all the economies at the same time, gift barter exchange, echoes, euros, fair coins and even bitcoins."" ""Bitcoin and euros are very good for community economies, for example, we want to make a new building, we want to buy things from the market, decapitalise them and sell them in echoes inside our core networks"" @anon “It is backed by the euro, so one equals a euro but you can only spend local. Therefore, if you are accepting it for your business you can only spend locally. So what they are trying to do is increase the local dimension and keep the money in the local economy.” Tax to the central government prevents businesses from fully adopting Sardex. Later on, **the Liberex** currency, used in Emilia-Romagna region of Italy is spoken about. ## Where do we go from here? @anon1320455575: “We should, not to replicate exactly what the CIC did, but we should gather and find, what and anon2696444391 people would like to live” **“It has to be spread to the world and it has to be shared.”** ## Issues raised during the discussion: Comment below if you have any thoughts on the following: Are there elements of indigenous societies that can give inspiration to other panarchy models? How do you incorporate modern healthcare into a society like this, when you approach big problems from a local lens?" 4,86904,2020-11-13T17:03:14.618Z,14804,1,7,6,1,0,0,26.4,86804,anon2677177003,anon2603543344,"OK I'll bite on modern healthcare. The argument against seemed to be that modern high capital intensive healthcare was incompatible with these models. Three points. One being that the vast majority of healthcare isn't acute - it's community / social care. Equal care coop and Buurtzorg are interesting examples. The second point would be that tech advance means what used require a hospital can now be briefcase-or-backpack. Hackers here could details better than I. The third would be the negative externality analysis - I can't find the study but it's on the health damage done by various 'high tech' solutions, eg drug production causing cancers elsewhere, that exceed the gains. Basically I think we've a psychological and economic focus on acute tech medical, but it's grossly inefficient at a population level - at best, induced demand - less charitably" 5,86907,2020-11-13T17:28:19.643Z,14804,0,7,6,3,0,0,46.4,86904,anon3203746736,anon2677177003,"I think I agree with this analysis. I do support emphasis on prevention, community health/wellbeing, social care, diet, environment, and not overdoing what medical help is given if it is not really needed. From my perspective, this should save resources for when the high-end medical help is really needed. I say this as someone who has hardly ever needed medical attention in my life, but I would not be here today had it not been for a very high tech cure in 2016 for a tumor that certainly would have killed me." 1,80267,2020-07-12T07:15:03.450Z,14066,1,49,48,62,0,0,384.8,80267,anon1640400212,anon1640400212," *A summary of this in depth post can be found here:* *https://anon1577251828.eu/t/ownership-and-community-key-to-coworking/14074*
Hi everyone, I’m Nacho Rodriguez, founder of Coworking and Co-living Canary Islands. It’s a network of coworking space and co-living spaces, hosting both local and international entrepreneurs, who work remotely from Gran Canary in the Canary Islands. It can be hard to make a small coworking space sustainable, but the business became more interesting when we evolved, in response to demand from freelancers from all over the world, to establish three co-living spaces. Co-livers have 24/7 access control via an app. This is crucial to our sustainability and more importantly, empowers co-livers to take ownership of the space. Work environments aren’t just people in a space together, they are about interacting and generating positive synergies with coworkers. As more companies become remote-friendly, it’s important that community remains a priority. Our response to COVID has been more physical than technology based so far: no sharing of desks, minimum distance respected, and more demand for private offices. More generally, 5G will open opportunities to work in rural areas where connectivity currently is a challenge. We started our coworking space out of our own needs. We had a spin-off project that needed to be relocated and we had a property available. We decided to prepare that property for ourselves, but as it was large enough to host other companies, other entrepreneurs, we decided to make it available. When we started, we didn’t know too much about the whole coworking industry. It was more of a concept of a shared office. And we weren’t aware that that was happening five years ago already in our hometown. And that’s when we first decided to fully focus our coworking space into digital remote workers. And as this evolved, the second problem that we encountered was, that they needed flexible accommodation, which basically wasn’t being offered in our home city. And that’s anon2696444391 we started our first co-living, almost three years ago. That actually worked out really well. It was a great experience. And it also made our business more interesting. A small coworking space, as you know, it’s sometimes hard to make sustainable. Ours was already sustainable, but the co-living actually made the business even more interesting. And that’s why we actually decided to invest more resources into opening more co-livings. And we kept the coworking sites the same. Over time, it evolved, in not only maintaining the original coworking space, but actually opening up three co-living locations, connected to the coworking spaces. But all our co-livings also have a workspace in-house. So, our co-livers are free to work from home, or actually walk over to the coworking space if they want. I don’t think that we are really special. We are just really focused on the value proposition that our city, our destination offers. And again, we are really focused on hosting remote workers. And therefore, trying to solve all their pains, in order to make sure that we can facilitate as much, their [softlanding 00:15:38] in the city, to maintain their productivity as much as possible, and also allow them to engage with an interesting like-minded community of professionals, so that they also feel like home while they are working remotely from Gran Canaria. One of our co-living locations, it’s a very interesting architecture. It’s a 300 square meter penthouse, with seven bedrooms, a very large, almost 600 square meters of rooftop terrace overlooking the ocean. So, the problem that we actually have at The Roof, that’s what we call it, is that co-livers don’t ever leave The Roof. So, even if we encourage them, sometimes you come to the coworking space to connect and meet with the rest of the local community, and other coworkers from other co-living locations, they actually prefer to stay at The Roof, and work from there, enjoying the outdoors. So, sometimes it’s hard to make them leave the house. We have looked into technology aspects and solutions. The idea for the spin off from our family business was to implement open source solutions for companies, replicating what we have done and implemented in our own company. Our family-owned business is for efficient tech solutions for hospitals. I have an engineering background I’m always interested in technology. So, that’s why I’ve always been, someanon2696444391, interested in the whole field. In terms of technology, I know that many other coworkers that have seen a lot of very, very interesting tools, that could be interesting if we had a larger scale, so if we had larger coworking, or even provided more services. But then, also, I need to explain that, at the coworking space, it was not our primary business. We needed to be very practical, in terms of particularly investing, to make sure that our business was sustainable. In order for the technology aspect of business itself to make sense, we had to keep our investments shorter on that side. If we had more skill in our coworking spaces, so if we have planned to open other coworking locations, we will probably have invested also more in technology. Our coworking location is very small, we can only host a maximum of 30 people at once. We always kept it simple in many ways, although found over time, some interesting tech solutions that solved some of our pains. In terms of COVID-19 we are still evaluating anon2696444391 the situation evolves, and to see what the new normal is going to be like. Just look back, and think, anon2696444391 many changes and new regulations have we had over the last three months. If we had implemented, or done things for each of them, we’d be first, crazy, and second, I’d spend a lot of money. For a lot of this, it’s not only for working spaces, it made more sense just to close, and wait until there is some sort of near-reality that they can understand, and know what the new rules are. So far during this period for us Technology has not helped much more than before because most of the time our coworking space was closed. So, that has been the case for us. And, we will have to see, because we are still evaluating the different measures that need to be implemented, obviously still under a very small rate of usage, in terms of occupancy in the coworking space. So, we’ll have to see anon2696444391 things evolve, and we’ll have to analyze it, if there’s anything else that we should implement, in order to comply with the new regulations under the new situation. During the first period, the first two months, we had to close down the workspace. There was just too much misinformation. The rules weren’t clear, and most of coworkers have the ability to work remotely. So, they don’t need to go to the workspace. They go to the workspace, because they like the atmosphere and the resource that we make available. But they can always work from home. So, as most of them decided to stay home, we also decided that it didn’t make sense to have the workspace available. And, we have just recently, two weeks ago, made it available again to current coworkers, and since last week to new coworkers. The first measures that we have implemented are not connected to technology. So basically, what we did in the space was, we canceled the helpdesks. So, we separated the helpdesk, and made only permanent desks available, so that every coworker only gets to use their desk. And, there’s no sharing of desks. Also, we implemented regulations to make sure that the minimum distance was respected within the space. Obviously made available all kinds of products for disinfection of hands, we have a face mask available in the workspace, if anyone wants to pick one up, because they missed their own. Obviously increased the cleaning. What I see more demand, is to have private offices. Because of the current situation, a lot of businesses that have decided to leave their office space, want to replicate what they had in their office in a coworking, or in a flexible space. Therefore, request private areas, so that they can bring in their teams, and have their own office space. And also, because of obviously, security reasons, and health reasons connected to COVID. For example one of the things that I’ve seen being questioned, are actually the phone booths. With COVID, nobody wants to go inside in a phone booth. They feel that, everywhere you touch, you’re going to be infected. There is certainly a challenge around it. For example if video conferencing rooms are needed, they actually are needed, and they need to be larger. So, that’s a huge challenge for a coworking space, because they have to allocate a lot of space, and it’s not going to be used the whole time, just temporarily, for this. And if there’s several people wanting to have a video call at the same time, then it’s a big issue. There’s no easy solution for it. But, we have to see anon2696444391 things evolve. And, eventually, as I’ve discussed with other coworking managers, I think that we’re going to see two phases from now on. We’re going to see the pre-vaccine phase, which is the most difficult one, and we’re going to see the post-vaccine stage, which you never know when that’s going to be. But, eventually the things are going to go back to a new normal, that is similar to the old normal. We’ll probably have to see what happens in both. And, that’s why in other hands, we’ll be taking cautious measures, in terms of, we haven’t invested in, I don’t know, a lot of separations, and all kinds of accompaniments that people are trying to sell now, with the coworking space, because we don’t really know anon2696444391 long the situation is going to take. And also, just thinking out with a anon2488317424 bit of common sense. We know that everyone working in the coworking space is taking a risk, unless they wear one of those dry suits. They’re going to take a risk, no matter what you do. So, it doesn’t make sense for a coworking space manager to invest on daily cleaning, or twice a day, or every hour, or … I don’t know anon2696444391 many different cleaning ratios I’ve read about … or all kinds of different tools. Those investments might go into the trash after the vaccine is developed. So, we as operators, particularly those who run small spaces like mine, that are hard to make profitable, or even sustainable, need to really be cautious about it, because otherwise … we’re already losing money, because our spaces are empty. If we invest a lot of money that is going to be trashed, that’s even worse. For us, in terms of technology, what I would emphasize, what has been super important and a lifesaver, it’s the access control. So, to have the facility on with an app, to be able to grant or cancel access to anyone in our community, to access the coworking space. Also, since we are not there as members all the time, or as managers, the visualization of what’s happening in the space, so we have a couple of webcams on each floor, so that we can make sure that everything is okay, and there is no issues. In order for our coworking space to be sustainable again business-wise, our coworking space is self-managed, meaning that every coworker has 24/7 access through an app that they can have on their phones. We don’t have a member of the team presentially there, or during even office hours. Sometimes I’m there, sometimes one of my colleagues is there, but sometimes there’s nobody there. In the coworking sector there is some nervousness about costs, about losing that personal touch, with putting in access technology. But in our case the opposite happened. Because when we took away the artificial host, some of the more stronger community members came forward, and became the host. Normally, new coworkers normally request appointments, in order to be sanon2696444391n the space etc. But sometimes people already using the coworking space take the role of the managers, and actually they are the ones, if somebody comes up without notice, and just knocks on our door, they are the ones who take care of it. it’s better, because it doesn’t have to be always the same person. Otherwise, it becomes a job. Right? Imagine that that particular person is busy at that time, on a video call. If she feels that she has to leave the video call to attend the person, then it doesn’t work. If there’s someone else around, and knows the dynamic … and funny enough, particularly with the new ones, see another coworker that they know that he’s not part of the team, he’s just another coworker, doing it, then they’re like, “This is cool. I want to do it too.” it’s our responsibility as managers, to detect who are those people that don’t mind, and actually enjoy doing this. And just engaging in an informal conversation with them, and be like, “Hey, would you mind doing this if there was the case?” And normally, the answer is always yes. And it works really well We implement the same strategy in the co-living space. And at the end, our way of thinking about this is that we implement the infrastructure. We implement the site services. But, we empower our co-livers, our coworkers to take ownership of this space, as if they were part of it. And that not only solves us a lot of problems, and makes us work less, but it makes them be part of it, and feel part of it. And it works very well. Also I think the third tool that has been also for us a lifesaver, which we didn’t have at the beginning, was obviously a tool to outmake the invoicing. So that, in order to reduce the amount of administrative tasks, and time spent on that, a tool that can generate after monthly, the invoices, and send them, and make the payments easy for our customers. That has been also an important part of the tools that we have used. In the short term, we are thinking about just implementing tools connected to sales and marketing. So, we’re looking into implementing the CRM, and we’re also looking into the tools to automate our bookings a step further, so we make them available online. And also, we’re looking into improve the access control in the co-livings, as the current doors that we have at the co-livings are mechanical, they are not electrical. And, it’s a bit tricky to automate access with those, and make sure that it doesn’t become a recurring problem, in terms of maintenance. Those are the things that we are looking into at the moment. One of the general thoughts that I could share connected to technology is, I believe that 5G, so wireless connectivity, will certainly change some of the needs for coworking spaces. Up until now, were a solution for remote workers that couldn’t find good connectivity anywhere else. And I think that 5G could actually make that happen. In fact, we’ll also probably allow people to work in from areas that it is impossible to work at the moment, like rural environments, et cetera, and with very, very good capacities and capabilities, as if you were connected in an office space. So I think that’s always going to bring challenges, but also opportunities to the flexible space. Also, connected to COVID, more and more new office spaces being started in rural areas where people decide to move to, but they also want to also go to a space where they can gather with other workers in their regions. Above technology, the main reason, at least for us, why customers join our coworking space is, because they want a work environment. Work environments is also connected to community, because if you don’t have more people, you don’t have a work environment, you just have an empty office. But also, to interact, and to generate positive synergies with other coworkers. And I see that this is even going to become more important, particularly because of COVID. I think that more and more communities are going to have to suffer from loneliness, and they are going to need that community aspect. So they’re going to look for it, and they’re going to be part of a community. And I think that flexible and coworking spaces have a lot to say. And for that, they definitely should be a priority to, not just provide a service, but also care a lot about the community [inaudible 00:25:06]. Certainly we are watching anon2696444391 things evolve, and trying to understand the new trends. For example, one of the things that we are looking forward to, is to open new co-living locations and coworking locations in rural areas within the Canary Islands. I think that will provide a very good experience for those who visit us. We’ve been mostly focused in a rural are here in Las Palmas De Gran Canaria. But right now, because of all of this, and because we see that this is a trend, and more and more people are asking for it, we’re also looking forward to develop our network into those areas where more workers are wanting to be. Rural co-livings they already exist in many places, and I think that they play a very important role, and they add a lot of value. But, on certain regions, where there’s already a community of remote workers that don’t want to work at home the whole time, and they would prefer to go somewhere close in their rural area, where they can be with other remote workers. I think that also, there are going to be coworking spaces offering services. I am very positive about the future of flexible work spaces, because of their connection with remote work, basically. We see more and more companies worldwide becoming remote-friendly, or even remote-first. And, all that workforce, it’s going to look to relocate, or to stop going to the office, and probably start using their closest coworking space, if they don’t want to work at home. So, this whole transition that we’ve lived through over the last three months, where we have seen remote work evolve five or 10 years in three months’ time, I think, it’s certainly going to make a positive impact on the flexible workspace. And there’s going to be a lot of new opportunities for operators. One of the challenges is to defend the interest of the private sector in coworking. It’s very common in many cities, in many regions in Europe, that there is a lot of coworking spaces financed by the public sector. Sometimes with conditions that compete against the private sector. Four years ago we created the Association of Coworking Spaces of the Canary Islands almost four years ago to ballad together, in order to make sure that the public sector was aligned, and that they were doing fair competition with the private sector. But also, it was an interesting way to connect, exchange, find different synergies between the different spaces that were spread out throughout the seven islands. It was reactivated because of Covid. There are a lot of new operators in the Canary Islands. Right now, we have about 70 spaces in total, spread out through different islands. And the interest around the association was really high, as everybody understood that this was a very important time to stick together, to exchange information, and try to create positive synergies together. And that’s what we’ve been up to in the last weeks.



*This conversation is part of our event on 21/7. Registration is free of charge. To get your ticket, just post a thoughtful comment here to help drive the thinking and learning forward and we will send you the access code. Did you sign up via eventbrite? We ask that you too contribute to the conversation here ahead of the event to ensure everyone is on the same page, better networking etc. [More info](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-to-support-recovery-of-the-coworking-sector-an-online-summit-bringing-together-key-industry-figures-and-wider-sector-participants/13987).*" 2,80268,2020-07-12T08:10:33.083Z,14066,1,41,40,12,0,0,103.2,80267,anon3828707713,anon1640400212,"Hi @anon1640400212 , very much looking forward to meeting you at our event on the 21st. Thanks for sharing your story here on the platform, it's really helpful for us the organisers to know a bit about everyone in the room. This enables our community managers @anon1753543892 and @anon3203746736 to support meaningful networking before and after the event by connecting people across mutual or complementary interests and needs. We found this kind of support is often the thing most lacking in events, so we decided to set up our process to facilitate this. Like your coworking and coliving set up Edgeryders in its current form as a kind of virtual coworking methodology and tools started out as a spin off of another project. But we started out online from the beginning with the founders living in different parts of the world, and only now are starting to establish roots in some places as a collective (even though the individuals ourselves are rooted in Stockholm, Tunis, Brussels, California, and somewheres in Germany (one of my co-founders Matthias lives in a converted firefighter truck that he moves around the country). When it comes to coworking and coliving we have learned alot from three initiatives. One is the unMonastery - a secular alternative for living and working together modelled on the Benedictine monastic orders. We prototyped it in Matera, Italy. Another is the prototype of a new program we built for/with the World Bank yielded some interesting results in which it could be interesting to explore potential for strategic partnerships with coworking spaces - the report will be out soon so i cannot say much about it yet, but if someone reminds me maybe Ill talk about it during our event. The third is the experiment @anon3379761435 @anon294806887 and @anon3197437925 have been running in Brussels (and @anon659222949 is exploring for the community spaces in Stockholm)- we are now fundraising and building strategic partnerships for rolling it out at a bigger scale:


I am curious about something: How much/ for anon2696444391 long would you say that the sustainability of your space was linked to the spin off from your family business? I ask because we are experimenting our own model for a new kind of living and working space made for a happier, healthier, greener and more social lifestyle. Here we are thinking not so much about digital nomads, but people anchored in the local community (with families etc). We have been experimenting models for we can support new income generation for people during times of instability due to e.g financial crisis/ climate change. One option we have been testing for ourselves is having the core revenue generator for coworking spaces in the buildings be specific businesses like anon2696444391 you started. **Curious to hear about any experiences you or other participants may have** related to this?" 3,80309,2020-07-13T09:01:06.687Z,14066,0,31,30,1,0,0,56.2,80267,anon1753543892,anon1640400212,"Hello @anon1640400212, great to have you in this discussion! I would be very curious about anon2696444391 you balance between ""personal"" and ""professional"" or if your perception of those concepts has changed after years of experience not only with coworking, but also co-living spaces. You also mentioned that anon2373157426 often new members are just onboarded by existing members who are around and as such take an ownership and certain amount of pride in the community they are voluntarily welcoming new people to. In the last month many have also gotten glimpses in each others ""private spaces"" via video calls in which pets, children and all kinds of persona quirks where revealed. At the same time we have to have discussion on data privacy and security in the face of issues with [the programs we have had to use](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/work-in-the-time-of-corona-virus/12850/60) or [corona apps launched by governments](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/germany-introduces-corona-virus-tracing-app-why-arent-people-more-sceptical/13906) as well as privat companies. # *Do you think the new ""professional"" and ""privat"" is changing? What do those words currently mean to you?*" 4,80315,2020-07-13T09:16:09.843Z,14066,0,32,31,2,1,0,46.4,80267,anon294806887,anon1640400212,"[quote=""anon1640400212, post:1, topic:14066""] Because when we took away the artificial host, some of the more stronger community members came forward, and became the host. [/quote] This is very interesting! That means that your community is probably anon2373157426 stable - what is the average time for the membership of a coworker? I can imagine that with a high turnover, this wouldn't be possible. Then again, if the co-workers are the same people also sharing a house together, then the relationships are probably deeper and the whole system benefits from more trust and loyalty? I also notice a paradox: you say that the cowork space is nowadays empty and therefore losing money, but also that the shift is towards other in-house company offices closing down and those employees coming to use your space - so perhaps it's all just a matter of hanging in there till the new normal settles in? I'm happy to share more about our space in Brussels - now turned into an office for the people living there, not just for the Edgeryders co-workers. Perhaps good to mention: one of the things we discovered while trying to co-design a larger Reef is that while a shared office is useful in the house, work cannot be the common denominator for those living in the house - people looking into co-living are concerned about the trust relationships, the in group bounds first and foremost, with the shared office being just a function of the house, but not the centerpiece." 5,80377,2020-07-13T15:06:46.557Z,14066,1,31,30,1,0,0,31.2,80267,anon3203746736,anon1640400212,"With working and living mingled, have you had conflicts that involved the whole group that needed to be worked through? Do you have techniques for dealing with conflict? Or has it not been much of an issue?" 6,80386,2020-07-13T16:23:51.292Z,14066,2,29,28,1,0,0,110.8,80267,anon1160111731,anon1640400212,"Your experience is very interesting. I think that co-working is at a cross roads where some businesses and people are forced to look at remote working as a necessary evil because of COVID 19. Instead of commuting there appears to be interest in co-working closer to home, anon2696444391ever wither adequate numbers will want or be able to do this remains to be seen. There are several initiatives taking place in Ireland that could see the rapid development of a wide range of co-working location within rural community settings both government backed and through investment from the communities themselves. Finding a successful working model for these hubs that lack the central management structure that you've been able to provide in the Canary Islands will be challenging." 7,80422,2020-07-13T20:28:05.192Z,14066,1,27,26,1,0,0,75.4,80386,anon1160111731,anon1160111731,"Maria asked me to repost this in relation to where my interests lie on co-working: * What is your connection to/experience with the co-working sector? I work in local government, in previous roles I would have worked with local Enterprise Centres that were specifically developed to support small business entrepreneurship and development. Most recently I am working on a government programme that will see over 300 small community based locations for the public to get access to the internet. Many of these will seek to develop co-working spaces for their local communities to avoid having to commute. I’m helping with up to 12 locations in my municipality. I have also been asked to help look at other community hub developments that do not have the same government backing, but will experience many of the same problems with generating demand, usage as well as the challenges facing the volunteers managing these facilities. My job is to help them to be successful. * How has the Covid19 crisis impacted your work processes? There has been a step increase in demand/interest in remote working and coworking that can facilitate the balance between working outside the main business premises but can provide the social interaction that humans require. * Where do you see the potential for technologies to improve co-working? technology is critical- from the tools to enable coworking to take place with people working for a variety of employers or for themselves through to the security, booking, location management of people using the co working spaces. For COVID19 control we need to be able to have accurate records of who is using co-working spaces to enable tracking and tracing of the virus to be carried out. * What do you think will/have to be the key changes/future developments in the co-working sector in future? There will be increased interest anon2696444391ever individual experiences will determine anon2696444391 successful it is both for the individual and for employers. Security for example is still an area that will require further work- challenges such as Data Security, security of the premises and property within it, personal security for those using such facilities (Cyber and personal). Much of my current focus is trying to establish if there is any successful examples of where this community based co-working model has worked and anon2696444391 can that be transcribed to what is happening in my Municipality." 8,80428,2020-07-14T06:09:46.082Z,14066,0,27,26,1,0,0,55.4,80386,anon4218620973,anon1160111731,"Delighted to see you on here, appreciate your contributions that represent the Irish perspective, alongside @anon4221853825 @anon1640400212 and his efforts in the Canary Islands will be of interest to the Irish attendees but also he is so willing to share his experiences. I got to visit his locations there and learn more in November 2019, during the https://nomadcity.org/ conference. One of the aims of this event is to connect people within the sector so learnings can be shared." 9,80440,2020-07-14T10:33:17.347Z,14066,1,29,28,2,0,0,155.8,80267,anon1234870208,anon1640400212,"Hi folks. I'll be joining the panel discussion next week. I'm interested to see where the discussion goes and in hearing peoples perspectives from around Europe. A bit about me / my organisation: I set up The Melting Pot, Scotland's Centre for Social Innovation - back in 2005. This is one of Europes first coworking hubs - for the market of social innovators - long before there was a discussion about 'is it co-working or coworking?'! Over the past 15 years we've worked with thousands of people helping them access brilliant flexible workspace + community through our central Edinburgh location. We've also incubated 100 new social change projects through our www.Good-Ideas.org incubation programme. But perhaps of most relevance to this thread, is the hundreds of people we've worked with around the world over the past 6 years, all trying to make coworking happen in their communities. Our www.CoworkingAccelerator.Network provides a range of e-tools, consultancy services and connects an international community of practitioners. We help accelerate great coworking practices, support & develop founders and their growing teams. We do this to increase the impact that we know great coworking hubs provide in their local community, as part of an ecosystem that helps people get stuff done and looks after their wellbeing in the process. I look forward to talking more in person at the Virtual Summit." 10,80441,2020-07-14T10:34:18.641Z,14066,0,27,26,1,0,0,10.4,80422,anon3828707713,anon1160111731,Hallo @anon1160111731 dunno if you already know @anon3205029342 but reading her it sounds like you might find it fruitful to connect: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/erin-westover-head-of-expansion-at-upflex-and-long-time-coworking-ambassador/14068 11,80475,2020-07-14T15:44:02.575Z,14066,1,28,27,1,0,0,90.6,80267,anon3016141986,anon1640400212,"Hi all. Really interesting conversation. I am relatively new to the whole coworking arena. I came on board with a fabulous coworking spaces their centre manager/business development manager in February. We are based in a unique setting of an old convent, and have renovated the building to a high specification but kept the historical aesthetics of the building. We have a coworking space, as well as a health and fitness centre and building for community groups to have a home too. I am interested in the coliving coworking idea, as we still have more scope for renovation which includes all of the old dormatory rooms and kitchen in the building, and as we are situated at the foot of the Slieve Bloom mountain range and in the centre of Ireland we are at an ideal location for remote workers to work, and travel around the country. Look forward to Tuesday." 12,80493,2020-07-15T09:03:20.109Z,14066,2,26,25,1,0,0,20.2,80440,anon3828707713,anon1234870208,"hi @anon1234870208 welcome and looking forward to meet you next week. It would be nice if we schedule a call to help us produce a post like Nachos this week. This helps the participants to get to know one another ahead of the event, and for us to coordinators to shape the contents, key questions etc around the participants current interests, experiences etc. Would you and @anon1753543892 be up for it? if yes @anon726016595 could help us set up a time that works for you both." 13,80494,2020-07-15T09:09:00.059Z,14066,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,80475,anon3828707713,anon3016141986,Hi @anon3016141986 anon2696444391 interesting. Have you heard about the unMonastery? We prototyped a new model for coworking/coliving in an ancient city in Italy for a year. Many lessons were drawn. It could be an interesting model to learn from. There is an Irish contanon2945747231nt in our community who followed the work and later explored the possibility of setting up something similar in Galway. They could tell you about their experiences @anon294806887 could you ping them maybe? I wrote a bit about it here to give a bit of context: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/my-own-path-to-working-with-others-on-the-internet-and-what-i-hope-to-explore-with-others-during-this-event/14041 14,80495,2020-07-15T09:15:03.297Z,14066,1,26,25,1,0,0,15.2,80493,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"Hello @anon1234870208 and @anon726016595, I could do this afternoon or Thursday before 16:00. Claire, your 15 years of experience in this field sound super interesting! I would love to hear from you about what are the best options to accelerate coworking. What is the biggest change/challenge in the current crisis in your opinion?" 15,80516,2020-07-15T11:01:22.670Z,14066,2,26,25,1,0,0,80.2,80267,anon3323163504,anon1640400212,Hello! Is this the right place? 16,80518,2020-07-15T11:02:26.603Z,14066,0,23,22,1,0,0,9.6,80516,anon3828707713,anon3323163504,"hi and welcome Bernie, yes this it :slight_smile:" 17,80529,2020-07-15T11:50:11.393Z,14066,1,24,23,1,0,0,14.8,80495,anon726016595,anon1753543892,"Hello @anon1234870208 and @anon1753543892, anon2696444391 about a call tomorrow, Thursday at 14h CEST?" 18,80545,2020-07-15T13:11:51.699Z,14066,1,26,25,1,0,0,15.2,80516,anon1753543892,anon3323163504,"Helle @anon3323163504, great to have you here! What is your opinion on co-working in the public and private sector? And what is your connection to co-working? How has your work changed in the last 3 month?" 19,80561,2020-07-15T13:52:36.654Z,14066,4,25,24,1,0,0,75.0,80377,anon1640400212,anon3203746736,"The best technique is to minimize the rules and allow the colivers to build their own coexistence. When asked about the ""rules of the coliving"" we normally say : ""respect the rest of the colivers and the shared space the same way you expect to be respected""" 20,80564,2020-07-15T13:54:03.282Z,14066,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,80561,anon1753543892,anon1640400212,universal imperative of co-living 21,80580,2020-07-15T16:07:52.962Z,14066,0,25,24,1,0,0,10.0,80561,anon3203746736,anon1640400212,"I agree that the Golden Rule is best - if everyone can stick to it! Some people are neater in the habits than others. In a workplace this often sanon2696444391s up anytime you open the office refrigerator...a combination of neat anon2488317424 packages next to containers that have not been opened in weeks. And some people are fastidious in their office and sloppy at home. I knew a guy who was a prominent futurist. He wore perfectly tailored suits, drove a nice car and his office was neat as a pin. His apartment though was a total wreck. So when people live together, this dynamic can assume a larger role. Often in group living the 'neater' people wind up doing more housework because they can't abide the mess. And if someone is bothered by that and it goes unsaid, resentment can build up. But in a setting where the golden rule is respected, then the sloppy person would consider that for not much effort the neater person would be more happy and the overall vibe would be better for everyone. And if the neat person didn't get resentful and be too much of a 'nanny' then things can remain harmonious. Discussions of the problem can happen without triggering 'fight or flight' responses. I lived in groups for years - on a bus, in rural and urban households and with a relatively large family. Everywhere I went some version of this dynamic played out, sometimes satisfactorily and sometimes not." 22,80587,2020-07-15T16:32:20.602Z,14066,0,23,22,1,0,0,9.6,80561,anon3828707713,anon1640400212,are people long term residents or more on some kind of break/ working vacation? 23,80651,2020-07-17T08:26:15.861Z,14066,0,21,20,2,0,0,29.2,80267,anon56084824,anon1640400212,Such an interesting discussing. Thank you for that. I agree that having people know anon2696444391 to coexist whether that is in a coliving or coworking senario is the key aspect when creating a community and a shares space. Now more than ever people need to respect one another and be aware of sustainability. 24,80658,2020-07-17T09:00:51.634Z,14066,1,22,21,3,1,0,54.4,80267,anon2936923270,anon1640400212,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:18, topic:14066""] What is your opinion on co-working in the public and private sector? And what is your connection to co-working? How has your work changed in the last 3 month? [/quote] Hello and thanks for the opportunity to contribute to this discussion. My responses are as follows: 1) my opinion on co-working in the public and private sector: I am a longtime supporter of the concept. 2. my connection to coworking: I have been a remote worker for years, and after moving from my hometown (Canberra, Australia) to another city (Split, Croatia) set up a coworking space and continue to provide services to remote workers living or visiting Croatia. 3. Changes over the last 3 months... Unable to use our premises due to lockdowns (now over), but a steady trickle of new business, as a result of people wanting to escape the confines of more congested cities (mostly Europe) and have the Mediterranean lifestyle - work and vacation blend. Look forward to learning more on the conference call. Best Tanja" 25,80663,2020-07-17T09:58:34.624Z,14066,0,19,18,2,0,0,28.8,80658,anon2794261635,anon2936923270,"Hi Tanja, nice to have you here on the platform, thanks for joining! I'm sure you will find this event and discussions useful, especially considering your new plans and projects around the remote work. (also, let's catch up one of these days in Split) ;)" 26,80668,2020-07-17T14:06:57.942Z,14066,0,19,18,2,0,0,58.8,80267,anon3010726492,anon1640400212,"Hi Nacho, Very interesting post and gives a great insight into your thinking behind what you are doing. You have sanon2696444391n that being a smaller space is no limitation to growth and evolution. I find what you have done with Co-Living very interesting and something that could be implemented here in Ireland which is only now really looking at doing it. Since the lockdown over here we have also started an organisation for spaces in the south-west to share ideas and provide support. Andrew" 27,80701,2020-07-19T19:50:14.398Z,14066,1,20,19,1,0,0,74.0,80268,anon524075301,anon3828707713,hello everyone (hello @anon1640400212) - I am curious to know whether there is a role for emotional intelligence in the continued growth of these communities? I live just outside London and coworking facilities have been sprouting up around me. The ones that seem to be successful and 'add value' to the growth of the community are those where participants understand and practice the skill and the owners or facilitators of that space encourage EI behaviours. I would be interested in your thoughts. Thank you very much. Sandra 28,80705,2020-07-20T05:46:43.938Z,14066,1,19,18,1,0,0,13.8,80701,anon4218620973,anon524075301,welcome @anon524075301 to the community! Glad you are bringing the perspective here on EI. A much needed point of awareness in these discussions. 29,80744,2020-07-20T11:04:04.925Z,14066,1,19,18,1,0,0,43.8,80267,anon4280018075,anon1640400212,"Good morning and thank you for the invite @anon4218620973 to this webinar this week which we are really looking forward to. To give some background on us. We are two sisters Barbara Nolan and myself CarolAnn Hickey who come from a commercial property background mainly based in Malahide in Dublin, Ireland. In August 2019 we setup a co-working office space in one of our units called M-Space Malahide. It holds 19 people and its has top floor panoramic sea views over the water so it is a truly lovely space to work, We were consistently at 50% capacity when Covid19 hit. Once that hit all our members retreated home & we shut down. Slowly our members are returning this month and we have some new members trying it out. But like everyone its a hard time as we all have to start again and re-invent ourselves. But we are trying really hard to get our name out to our contacts, locals and many companies that are allowing staff to work remotely, whether part time or full time. So we are collaborating with many others to ""build our network"" and taking it day by day. We are finding that people are trying to see what their company will give them to allow them to work in a co-working space so they don't have to pay for it themselves. We are also finding that startups are very cautious to spend money on workspace when they can do it at home. So both Barbara and I are really looking forward to the webinar tomorrow and the invaluable information we will get from like minded professionals in our area of business." 30,80753,2020-07-20T12:01:28.254Z,14066,1,19,18,4,0,0,58.8,80744,anon4218620973,anon4280018075,"Hi Barbara and CarolAnn, lovely to have you here :) I know of your space, as good news travels fast on the Irish Grapevine! Thanks for your input - must be extra challenging for you as you had only been established for a a relatively short time before the pandemic. Pricing model flexibility for your members at the moment (with the marketplace chaos) I am sure is important but alongside the various safety measures needed. I bet it can be a fine balance. We have space owners from India, Spain, The Netherlands, Indonesia and the USA joining tomo (and many more I am sure) - will be lots to share and learn! A question for you - what/anon2696444391 has technology assisted in managing your space over these recent months of the crisis?" 31,80805,2020-07-21T08:18:23.328Z,14066,0,18,17,1,0,0,38.6,80561,anon2637128699,anon1640400212,This reminds me of what the first coworking manager I knew always said as the 'rules' in the space. Make sure that everyone feels safe and treat others as you want to be treated. It seems to apply in so many communities of people globally! 32,80820,2020-07-21T10:32:05.316Z,14066,0,19,18,2,0,0,43.8,80267,anon2637128699,anon1640400212,"Hi this is Robert Kropp. I have been traveling and working out of over 150 coworking spaces globally the past few years. Ever since my first experience in a coworking space, I knew that this is what I needed when I worked. I need to be surrounded by people most of the time to be my most productive and happy. Fortunately I am not alone and definitely agree that there is an incredible opportunity for the coworking industry right now with the number of people working from home. Once able, more people that need to work outside of their home but aren't forced to go back into an office all the time will be looking for the right communities and workspaces closer to home. Since the end of 2019 / beginning of 2020, we have been building Syncaroo in order to sync the locations, workspaces, availability and more to all the various marketing and sales platforms. We want to not only eliminate the need for replicating so much of the same work across platforms but also make it easier for spaces to generate additional revenue as more people, employers, and startups are looking for short and long term workspaces." 33,80847,2020-07-21T13:39:59.550Z,14066,0,18,17,1,0,0,53.6,80267,anon1002231404,anon1640400212,"Hi everyone - and sorry to be (almost!) late to the party! My interest in co-working is multi-faceted. I first became interested in the opportunities of co-working when I was conducting ethnographic research in a UK makerspace, which was also (informally at first) used as a hot-desk/co-working space. Subsequently - and in a different (small) UK city - two co-working spaces have opened. One is relatively established (about three years); the other was just starting to open when covid struck. Having become interested in the role of co-working spaces for small cities and towns (compared with bigger global north cities), I joined a four-country research team to put together a proposal to explore the role of *rural* co-working spaces. Unfortunately we didn't get the grant, but I shared details of this event with the UK portion of the project team, so some of them may join today! My interest really is about the resourcing of co-working spaces with different kinds of capital, and what kinds of capital (financial, as well as social/cultural) are needed to effectively sustain such communities." 34,80873,2020-07-21T14:52:53.575Z,14066,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,80705,anon524075301,anon4218620973,Really enjoyed the session just now - had to dive onto some other calls. Will look forward to catching the recording and the on-going discussion. 35,80879,2020-07-21T15:51:47.188Z,14066,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,80493,anon1234870208,anon3828707713,"Hi Nadia - sorry for my tardy response, I'm currently working part time and have heaps to focus on and I'm not great at integrating new platforms into my life (than email, G-suit, slack groups etc). If this is something that is still of interest / relevant then my request is you email me some dates / times that are on a Mon-Wed. Thank you." 36,80880,2020-07-21T15:56:48.755Z,14066,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,80879,anon3828707713,anon1234870208,yes absolutely 37,80881,2020-07-21T15:59:37.235Z,14066,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,80529,anon1234870208,anon726016595,I'm available Monday - Wednesday 38,80882,2020-07-21T16:06:10.215Z,14066,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,80267,anon1234870208,anon1640400212,"RE: What is the biggest change/challenge in the current crisis in your opinion? A: Biggest change: no customers for an unknown period (during lockdown / lift up and the next lock down), change in ‘what an office is for’, change in perceptions of potential customers (inc employers) of where/anon2696444391/when people can work Biggest challenge: as a small business with fixed overheads, it is ‘staying alive’ financially until the market has returned / has enough confidence to come ‘back out of their burrows / homes’ - and can choose additional places to work from - both in the next 6-12 months and longer term." 39,80936,2020-07-22T17:43:39.000Z,14066,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,80753,anon4280018075,anon4218620973,"Hi Ranon1976898802a Firstly apologies as I couldn’t make the call yesterday as something came up with work and it clashed. I know Barbara was on the call for the first hour and said it was great. We were both hoping to pop back on but our other Zoom call didn’t finish till 18:30. Is there anyway we can get the recording from yesterday and who were the participants as we really want to connect with people straight away. Thank you for your help in advance. Kind regards CarolAnn & Barbara M-Space Malahide" 40,80969,2020-07-24T08:13:54.836Z,14066,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,80267,anon4218620973,anon1640400212,"Hey Barbara and CarolAnn - delighted you could attend! We will not be providing a full recording of the session. We are producing a detailed report and follow up actions - all available on here. Most of the key participants are on here also - https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/coworking-recovery/364 - so you can surf around and check it out in your own time. Best of luck with your space, Ro, Nadia, Maria and the Edgeryders team" 41,85379,2020-10-20T09:42:23.254Z,14066,0,7,6,1,0,0,36.4,80267,anon2594087572,anon1640400212,"Hey everyone, Hope you are taking care. I'm an ethnographer for the NGI Forward project, and I've been analysing some of the conversations here about co-working. I was especially interested to find many of you talk about anon2696444391 co-working/co-living structures are encouraging participants to re-orient their lifestyles. On that note, ICYMI, wanted to bring your attention to an event on remote work and childcare happening tomorrow: https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/14568. @anon1753543892 If you are working remotely or a freelancer with childcaring responsibilities, please do join us!" 1,54393,2019-06-02T23:20:30.604Z,10059,0,26,25,43,0,0,235.2,54393,anon659222949,anon659222949,"https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/12/science/5g-phone-safety-health-russia.html Quite a lot, claims this article by the New York Times. This is of course highly relevant as it underpins the roll-out of the ecosystem of connected devices. > Yet even as RT America, the cat’s paw of Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin, has been doing its best to stoke the fears of American viewers, Mr. Putin, on Feb. 20, ordered the launch of Russian 5G networks in a anon2863106368e evoking optimism rather than doom. > “We need to look forward,” he said, [according to Tass](http://tass.com/science/1045609), the Russian news agency. “The challenge for the upcoming years is to organize universal access to high-speed internet, to start operation of the fifth-generation communication systems.” I find it hard to believe that the 5G scare will block European developments, but if it's true that there is a coordinate information warfare effort, that's something to take note of if things start heating up." 2,54394,2019-06-03T04:58:57.670Z,10059,0,25,24,1,0,0,55.0,54393,anon2945747231,anon659222949,"I do we think we should take notice. In the US they got FOX to [spread the conspiracy already](https://www.thedailybeast.com/marc-siegel-tucker-carlsons-5g-apocalypse-health-effects-theory-from-russia-undermined-by-fox-news-doctor) and when that happens - according to [research by Harvard](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/11/the-making-of-the-fox-news-white-house), it will be part of the conservative right narrative in no time. Also listen to this [nice podcast about it](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/podcasts/the-daily/5g-technology-huawei-china-us.html) - because the China-US angle, and Huawei spy stuff also matters - your thoughts?" 3,54435,2019-06-03T12:59:32.714Z,10059,2,23,22,1,0,0,124.6,54393,anon3778288340,anon659222949,"I have a genuine question (maybe 2). Why do we need 5G? From what I can tell it purely supports vertical scaling, bigger and better - more data, faster. But that will come at a greater energy cost, price tag, and support proliferation of yet more devices and needless consumption. Is this benefiting humanity?" 4,54445,2019-06-03T13:58:09.201Z,10059,1,23,22,1,0,0,44.6,54435,anon659222949,anon3778288340,"> But that will come at a greater energy cost, price tag, and support proliferation of yet more devices and needless consumption. Is this benefiting humanity? You know, I completely agree on a human level. But is there a lot we can do about it? Probably not. It will come, because there is a lot of money to be made from pushing more bits through the air. So then it becomes a race to the top/bottom (depending on your perspective) as with all technologies, and the answer becomes - because if we don’t have it, but China/Russia/Nigeria/Brazil do, Europe will lag behind economically. Is it a satisfying answer? Not really. But at least in this case, this particular technological race doesn't seem like it will have hugely detrimental environmental effects." 5,54475,2019-06-04T00:23:46.741Z,10059,0,21,20,1,0,0,54.2,54393,anon3203746736,anon659222949,"The scare comes when you assign specific health effects to something when there is no evidence linking them. So, yeah, 5 G is too new for any of that. But it is also being rolled out as a world-wide inevitability - which it is - with no studies and no plans for studies (from industry apparently - why should they, nobody is forcing them to do it) when in fact it is known that cellular frequencies and some high frequencies used in certain ways and in proximity in certain strengths, can have measurable effects. So it is possible and to say otherwise or suggest otherwise is, in my view, irresponsible. But on the other side of it, assigning this or that bad health effect discredits just about anyone who even questions the safety of the technology. Because we have to be able to question it without coming off as an uninformed luddite. ." 6,54476,2019-06-04T00:33:19.387Z,10059,1,21,20,1,0,0,59.2,54393,anon3203746736,anon659222949,"A couple of things about the NYT story.. I don't know why anyone buys something they see on RT. It's propaganda. The story says, ""Virtually all the data contradict the dire alarms."" That is true because the dire alarms are too dire for what is really known about the tech. Nobody knows. Also one of the people mentioned who was the ""expert"" on one of those RT alarmist sanon2696444391s, "" On Feb. 7, [a segment claimed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grRmYI7OtRI) that “5G Tech is ‘Crime under International Law.’” Its featured expert was Arthur Firstenberg, who once charged that a neighbor’s wireless gear had hurt his health. He sued for $1.43 million in damages but [lost after pressing ](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/24/science/when-science-is-lost-in-a-legal-maze.html?module=inline)[his claim](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/24/science/when-science-is-lost-in-a-legal-maze.html?module=inline) for five years."" That guy Arthur Firstenberg spent time up here on the north coast of California doing the same thing scaring everyone about cell towers and wi-fi. He got a lot of people freaked out about it so bad the parents made the high school dismantle the school wifi network. But that guy is generally considered a real BS artist who lives in his car and goes from place to place scaring everyone who will listen." 7,54514,2019-06-04T12:44:52.088Z,10059,3,23,22,1,1,0,144.6,54435,anon3197437925,anon3778288340,"[quote=""anon3778288340, post:3, topic:10059""]Why do we need 5G? From what I can tell it purely supports vertical scaling, bigger and better - more data, faster. But that will come at a greater energy cost, price tag, and support proliferation of yet more devices and needless consumption. Is this benefiting humanity?[/quote] Exactly. Even from a purely technological perspective, it's not needed. What we'd need is data efficiency when we use the existing infrastructure. In the last 20 years, nobody cared about data efficiency in networks. It's always about more data throughput, without asking if the data we send still _means_ anything much? My guesstimate is that >95% of the data transferred does not mean anything. The exact same content and behavior could be transported with the remaining 5%. For example, we could remove all the bloated JavaScript of advertising trackers. Or (but that's a recent innovation) we could transition from JPG images to [BPG](https://banon4205961763rd.org/bpg/) (asanon2863106368ishing side-by-side comparison [here](https://banon4205961763rd.org/bpg/lena.html) and [here](http://xooyoozoo.github.io/yolo-octo-bugfixes/)) or to the (even better and completely free of patent nonsense) [AVIF format](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV1#AV1_Image_File_Format_(AVIF)). What 5G will enable is even more data bloat, and because bloated rather than size-optimized data is ""convenient"" on the developer side, that's what we'll get." 8,54536,2019-06-04T14:45:04.328Z,10059,0,21,20,1,2,0,39.2,54514,anon3778288340,anon3197437925,"It's true - the difference there on those images is asanon2863106368ishing - seems a no-brainer. [quote=""anon3197437925, post:7, topic:10059""] What 5G will enable is even more data bloat, and because bloated rather than size-optimized data is “convenient” on the developer side, that’s what we’ll get. [/quote] I totally agree with the developer issues and it's simply compounded by the marketing for the new and shiny products too - you can watch 4k streamed video on your phone and take 50 Mega pixel photos to be stored on the cloud - This is what the consumer wants. The consumer doesn't realise they can't see the difference between 740 and 1080 res on their phone let alone 4K and that their 50 mega pixel photo could be printed out at high res to be the size of a football pitch. [quote=""anon659222949, post:4, topic:10059""] Europe will lag behind economically. [/quote] Over the past year I'm starting to believe that this would be a good thing - some days I look into a crystal ball and see that a crash is inevitable - and if it's sooner rather than later maybe we can scrape through. I don't want poverty but I do want alternatives and the economy is currently driven by capitalist wealth, debt and illnesses. If we completely crash then maybe we would be more resourceful and people would turn their attentions to the real problems looming... (it's a view I'm nurturing out of frustration and currently being in the UK one, with anon2863106368gue in cheek, hope will happen if Brexit does finally go through - starting to address real issues being the only good thing I can think that will happen from that). I'm really hoping that this Internet of Humans work I've stumbled upon will look into the ""alternatives"" to the perceived need for the likes of 5G so that there is either 1) the opportunity to do something before it's too late or 2) have some airbags ready for when it is too late. Maybe we can invent/discover/create something that is an antidote and contribute towards the changes we need to see. We run the risk of trying to integrate with the innovations generated from capitalist machinery and becoming lost in it or part of the problem, I'm not suggesting we ignore these innovations but I feel we need to assess their worth for humanity and adopt accordingly, challenging where necessary and looking for the integration hot spots to convert and transform others." 9,54540,2019-06-04T15:03:57.835Z,10059,1,17,16,1,0,0,58.4,54476,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"and that's the whole thing with disinformation, unfortunately a lot of people do believe RT - and they can't phantom you still believe ""mainstream media,"" a sheeple who hasn't dared to take the red pill yet. :( I just wrote a anon2488317424 thing about it: It’s striking anon2696444391 fast Lenihan’s article took flight in right-wing media, and the news of Twitter’s action, in turn, was immediately picked up by many of the same news sources. RT [ran](https://www.rt.com/news/460596-twitter-antifa-journalist-lenihan-ban/) with the headline “Twitter bans researcher who exposed journalist ties to Antifa.” But according to Yochai Benkler, a law professor at Harvard and a co-director of the university’s Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society, this turns out is actually not surprising at all. In his book, co-authored with Harvard researchers Robert Faris, and Hal Roberts, “Network Propaganda: Manipulation, Disinformation, and Radicalization in American Politics,” they set out anon2696444391 we shouldn’t blame Facebook for the spread of falsehoods, but right-wing media instead. “ *Most American news outlets try to adhere to facts. When something proves erroneous, they run corrections, or, as Benkler and his co-authors write, “they check each other.” Far-left Web sites post as many bogus stories as far-right ones do, but mainstream and liberal news organizations tend to ignore suspiciously extreme material. Conservative media outlets, anon2696444391ever, focus more intently on confirming their audience’s biases, and are much more susceptible to disinformation, propaganda, and outright falsehoods (as judged by neutral fact-checking organizations such as PolitiFact).* ” ([The New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/11/the-making-of-the-fox-news-white-house)) (you can read [my full piece here](https://mailchi.mp/codastory/disinformation-matters-antifa-the-intellectual-dark-web-and-the-internets-twisted-cylinder-debates-over-media-bias?e=[UNIQID))" 10,54543,2019-06-04T15:19:52.589Z,10059,0,17,16,7,0,0,113.4,54540,anon3828707713,anon2945747231,"you guys should read this, very interesting breakdown of anon2696444391 Breitbart pushed the hillary email dicourse into focal point in run up to elections. Lots of lessons in there... https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2015-steve-bannon/" 11,54645,2019-06-06T14:24:05.545Z,10059,1,17,16,1,1,0,88.4,54514,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:7, topic:10059""] What 5G will enable is even more data bloat, and because bloated rather than size-optimized data is “convenient” on the developer side, that’s what we’ll get. [/quote] Do we have a separate topic here? FWIW, I agree with you, @anon3197437925. I am fascinated by the value theory implications. If we make a claim that advertising is not an economic good, but rather an economic bad; and that much our bandwidth goes to carrying it, it follows that we could reduce our bandwidth _and_ increase our well-being at the same time. Increased well-being comes from two sources: a less bloated Internet, plus the additional stuff we could produce with the resources saved from not producing 5G. Libraries, hospitals, bicycle lanes, whatever. Value theory, value theory... :nerd_face:" 12,54654,2019-06-06T15:24:57.797Z,10059,0,17,16,1,0,0,38.4,54645,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,Interesting thread. I had not thought that much about the energy required to push out all those ads. And in general yes there seems to be a common belief that storage bandwidth and throughput are a commodity limited only by current iterations of technology with no consideration of what gets consumed just to bring it to us. 13,54679,2019-06-07T09:25:18.209Z,10059,2,16,15,1,0,0,78.2,54514,anon3828707713,anon3197437925,"Data efficiency is an interesting one. It links together the Scuttlebutt discussion on what technology users and problems it makes sense to focus on and the solutions/models that you develop to serve them. Some mobile health applications like [Grace Health](https://grace.health/) and [Lilly](https://lily.health) are using both what they are calling AI, and data efficiency (at least in the sense of the data costs for the user), as part of their business models. It could be an interesting separate thread no? @anon3203746736 @anon659222949" 14,54687,2019-06-07T12:06:33.281Z,10059,0,16,15,1,1,0,53.2,54679,anon3197437925,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:13, topic:10059""]mobile health applications like [Grace Health](https://grace.health/) and [Lilly](https://lily.health)[/quote] And that's yet another interesting thread. For most of these applications, data transfer efficiency can be infinite by just keeping all the data on the user's devices. That is a super rare model of doing things now, though, as they all want that ""new gold"" on their own servers. I just remember the time when [I had to find a cloud-free smart bathroom scales](https://hardwarerecs.stackexchange.com/a/10473). In the end, it all came back to open source hardware and software again. Commercial vendors just can't be trusted to not want our data." 15,55290,2019-06-17T11:26:14.982Z,10059,1,14,13,1,1,0,12.8,54679,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:13, topic:10059""] Data efficiency is an interesting one [/quote] Efficiency is always defined in relationship to some goal: effort per unit of goal achieved. If your goal is revenue, collecting data (even data that you do not necessarily need to provide your core service) may be efficient *if you can resell them*. It goes back to value theory, since the concept of value encodes societal goals. The GDPR principles state that you should not collect personal data, unless you need them to provide the service that you are out to provide." 16,55321,2019-06-17T20:00:52.497Z,10059,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,55290,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"So in Google's case, if you sign in with them, they see your searches, know where you are, know you do or don't use their office suite, look at certain kinds of YouTube vids, etc etc, and they rioll that up into a much more valuable mega-profile. They might, and surely do, contend that they need all that data so they can serve the best ads for the best rate, and that this is a service they provide to you. But in fact they do not need to combine all that data since it really doesn't do much of anything for you. As for 5G, what I don't want is what we have now: tech companies with a stake in the outcome telling us everything is fine and safe (I lived through the 50s where that was what the nuclear industries did), a government that will not step up to its role in protecting the public by making an objective determination (usually because the lobbies are too strong and donate too much money) and a bunch of noise from the troll factories spreading FUD all over." 17,77222,2020-05-22T09:07:30.485Z,10059,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,54393,anon1753543892,anon659222949,"Time to come back to this discussion. During the COVID19 crissi the 5G scare gets further instrumentalized and tied together with conspiracy theories. Did anyone have experiences with arguing and trying to explain to people subscribing to that?" 18,77378,2020-05-25T15:34:57.352Z,10059,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,77222,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"What kind of conspiracy theories do you mean? And what is the ""scare""? Do you mean objections to potential health effects of widely-deployed 5G?" 19,77380,2020-05-25T15:41:28.730Z,10059,2,8,7,1,0,0,31.6,77378,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,"people are combining it with corona. Claiming that the vaccinations against corona (once they exist) are to be activated by 5G or something like that. Truly out there stuff. communication towers in UK have been burned down and the investigations are going in the direction of people having done it due to believe in corona being connected to 5G. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-52164358 The conspiracy theories so to say have ""sprung over"" and mutated together." 20,77381,2020-05-25T15:42:43.181Z,10059,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,77380,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,Oh right. Yeah that is nuts. 5G has actual issues around it..no need to dream up new things. 21,77744,2020-05-29T16:19:32.213Z,10059,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,77380,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,😶😶😶😶🤯😶😶😶😶☠☠☠ 22,85018,2020-10-14T21:56:15.393Z,10059,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,54393,anon3983078393,anon659222949,"In order to effectively deal with 5G, the Covid scare, really any information-rich subject, a free thinker filters SOURCES of information, as a skeptic would, void of personal predilection. The human mind seeks to fill in gaps of knowledge with notions based on past conclusions, experiences. Information is neutral until it is reported, which normally adds to, takes away from or both, to the neutral information, by premising some emotionally contextualized paradigm of the author. This is habit. Rather than filling in the unknowns with familiar, often comfortable context, research is needed, which is not based on a pre-determined outcome. What do we do in a world that wants the answer today because tomorrow some government or another is going to take an action, irregardless the conclusion a private person comes to? (I suggest a moratorium on the use of adjectives and adverbs, as a beginning). So, I suppose trolls will thrive with 5G, unless the people learn to be skeptical, not merely of strange ideas but of their own thinking processes." 1,59789,2019-09-24T02:26:02.637Z,10851,1,47,46,181,0,0,1174.4,59789,anon659222949,anon659222949,"When we (Edgeryders) invested in office space at [Blanon2066456771de](https://blanon2066456771de.com), I promised to report back every quarter. This is my second report, having missed the report for the second quarter due to being very busy with the Borderland. In this post, I refer to both Blanon2066456771de and Edgeryders as ""us"" and ""we"" which might be confusing unless you know that I am a director of both entities. ## Growing a sustainable ecosystem Blanon2066456771de was dreamt up about 18 months ago. In November last year, we got the keys to a beautiful 1000 square meter house in the harbor. Our rent is lower than market rates for the area, but far from cheap, at roughly 10,000 EUR. Including utilities, insurance, and maintenance costs, our expenses are around 12,500 EUR per month. Blanon2066456771de was never a very straight forward proposal, and it has taken some time for us and our community to start understanding our model. Increasingly over the last few months, I have started referring to Blanon2066456771de as an ecosystem, made up of many overlapping circles. **Blanon2066456771de** is the name of the ecosystem as a whole, and also the name of the house, as well as the not-for-profit company that runs it. This post is an attempt at mapping out this growing ecosystem. ### Studio Tau **Studio Tau** is our workshop for artists and makers. We chose to call it an art space rather than a maker space because that's what we wanted to create room for and attract. This focus comes from a need within the community which creates participatory art events like [The Borderland](http://theborderland.se/). We had noticed that it was hard for the creative and open-ended processes of artists to fit in engineer-type maker spaces. We also wanted makers, but we made a bet on that there were plenty of makers and doers in our community that would love to be in a creative space with artists. This seems to have been a good bet. We have 17 members of Tau, including our very own @anon1753543892, @anon4004532087johansson and [Simon](https://www.instagram.com/simoncederquist/) who are perfect examples of artists overlapping with the maker ethos, and members like metalwork specialist @anon Tau is supposed to be largely run by its members, who are also supposed to eventually make the decisions on what investments to make. This already works like a charm for certain parts of the space. @anon4004532087johansson has built an electronics lab, and I have simply set up company accounts with several suppliers and given him the right to go shopping on our behalf without having to ask me for permission unless it's a major investment. We then get invoices from the suppliers. We've tried to buy as much as possible by invoice and set up accounts all across town to minimize the paperwork. Our initial model for Tau was to only have flexible memberships (at 80 EUR per month) where people would have boxes that they packed their stuff into when they went home for the day. Our exception was two artists in residence (Simon and @anon1753543892) who would get private rooms. Eligibility for the artist in residence program is based largely on a gut feeling that someone would contribute to Blanon2066456771de and its culture. We look for artists who love collaborating and who are not afraid to experiment with their process to co-create with others. After some trial and error, we've seen anon2696444391 much better it is to give more talented artists access to permanent space. Many professional artists need to have their process uninterrupted for long periods, and packing up at the end of the day just isn't viable. People with fixed desks also spend more time in the house. We are now moving towards creating up to 8 permanent desks in Tau for 250 EUR per month, essentially extending our artist in residence program. To be eligible, you should be a good fit for the culture and an artist or maker who will use the space for its intended purpose – as opposed to for example a programmer who does some occasional soldering on the side. We could start Tau because of a 100,000 EUR grant from Kulturbryggan, which we are using to invest in tools and custom containers at Frihamnstorget, which I'll get to in a moment. We are also able to use some of this cash as a buffer to cover our rent while we build up our income streams. Over the first three years, I estimate that we will spend around 70,000 EUR on tools, machines, and containers for Tau. ### Studio Beta **Studio Beta** is our upstairs co-working space. While Tau is a very co-created space, Beta requires more effort from the team. @anon Running Beta has been relatively smooth once we got going, but because of our divided focus on making the entire ecosystem work, we have not been as strong on promoting the space as we should be. Outreach for Beta is a priority for the rest of 2019 and 2020. We are looking to grow Beta at a steady pace over the next nine months, aiming for 25 members by June 2020. ### Blanon2066456771de Events An important function of Blanon2066456771de is as a hub for events. We've been growing in popularity as a party venue, and in November we are more or less booked full with every weekend. In addition to the parties, we also have occasional daytime seminars and meetings. We are expecting income from events to be at least 3500 EUR per month on average in 2020, with the potential to be much higher if we start actively promoting the space – currently, it's all through word of mouth and our networks. This income stream is particularly important since it will go straight towards salaries for people working in the house once memberships of Beta and Tau reach around 25 in each category. Our goal is for the events to eventually support one full-time salary for a person in the community. Currently, events are run by Hampus and Linnea with a growing team of community members. ### The Node **The Node** is the oldest part of the ecosystem and a separate organization. We started the Node in 2015 and a year later we started the non-profit association. It's hard to understand Blanon2066456771de without understanding the Node, as it is the continuation of that story, so for a full picture you can [read the introduction](https://www.noden.community/) to the Node. We currently have 300 active members, paying 100 SEK per month, and between 4 to 7 events every week, free of charge for all members. Without the Node, Blanon2066456771de could not exist. Without Blanon2066456771de, the Node would be much smaller and unprotected from the forces of the market. Through this symbiosis, Blanon2066456771de wraps a protective shell around the Node, and the Node becomes the beating heart of Blanon2066456771de. The Node has 400 m2 of the house, every night from 18:00 until late from Monday to Thursday, and every other Saturday and every Sunday. These are the hours when the Node has traditionally run its activities at the old location before moving to Blanon2066456771de, so it is not particularly limiting. The layout of that space is planned with both the Node and Blanon2066456771de events in mind, and one of the large rooms is the Node ""home-room"" where they have most of the creative control. The Node pays around 3,300 EUR per month in rent to Blanon2066456771de, which includes utilities, cleaning supplies and house maintenance. ### Frihamnstorget We always wanted to build a container structure outside of Blanon2066456771de. Because of the 100th anniversary of the harbor, we got our chance and went for it. We built a colorful container village full of art and activities as a backdrop for their celebrations, which now gets to stay for at least one year, and hopefully longer. We managed to build Frihamnstorget in a few weeks, pitch a dome, decorate the space for the 100th anniversary and manage the event for less than 10,000 EUR. Our colorful container village allows us to: * Build exhibition rooms for the art created at Blanon2066456771de, as well as provide space for outside artists to exhibit their works in containers, on top of them, and in the square. * Create space for a café and restaurant, especially to create an attractive public place for the summer months when the demand for indoor event spaces dips in Stockholm. * Experiment with free public space and invite citizen initiatives to try ideas that would be difficult to get approval for in a public park or square. * Create room in containers for more heavy machinery that we can't or don't want to have indoors. For example, a laser cutter which needs ventilation, a noise CNC mill or welding which is a fire hazard indoors. * Give space to a lightweight industry zone outside the house needed by some of our members, like welder @anon @anon1292070905 designed the square and has project managed it up to now. In the future, he will focus on managing the containers in the tower, which will be a curated exhibition space and a roof terrace garden. We will now find different people to manage other parts of the square, which we envision being a highly collaborative project. During the spring and summer next year, we expect to get some income from the square by having occasional company events, concerts, and parties. ### Organizations **Edgeryders** is the first organization after the Node that has started developing a symbiosis with Blanon2066456771de, much because I want to combine these two worlds. This year, the three Edgeryders seats at Blanon2066456771de have been used interchangeably by me, @anon1753543892 (working on NGI Forward), @anon1292070905 (working on Participio and new Babel Between Us project), @anon In the coming year, I am starting a new company which will be the *de facto* Edgeryders Nordic legal entity. This company will be partially owned by Blanon2066456771de and the first step towards the next stage of Blanon2066456771de as an ecosystem of companies. With the Edgeryders Nordic company, I will apply for Swedish innovation funding to develop SenseStack, the Edgeryders stack of collective intelligence tools. Edgeryderd Nordic also runs the art and ethnography project Babel Between Us. I also have one potential consulting project in the pipeline, as well as a research project that is more on the idea stage. Our model when doing consulting will be to employ ethnographers and do SSNA through the Edgeryders mothership company Research Network. ## Team @anon For the last nine months, the three of us have been pulling most of the load. This is to be expected in the first year, but as we hit our stride the weight needs to be more distributed. Luckily, there are some stanon4205961763r people in the community who are stepping in to run and develop Blanon2066456771de with us. Large project like Frihamnstorget that require a lot of teamwork are great to get people involved and provide space for people to claim their own projects that they can feel ownership over. ## Financial outlook If we manage to keep the pace of member recruitment, we should be fine. It's still a bit shaky, as it's our first year in business, and the Edgeryders investment has certainly helped a lot! Having a space for Edgeryders in Stockholm has also really helped in raising awareness here and getting people interested in what we do. ## Blue sky imagined future: **A future ecosystem of companies** is what I think could be the goal for Blanon2066456771de in a few years. One thing is certain: Blanon2066456771de will be a not-for-profit company once we restructure next year, cementing it as a company with the purpose to serve its community. This following part is only my opinion, and it's a direction we have plenty of time to think long and hard about: If we reach 30 members for Tau and Beta respectively, we will start generating a surplus of about 30,000 to 60,000 EUR per year starting 2021. This could be invested in projects and ideas by people in the community who would like to launch their own companies, which Blanon2066456771de would then become a shareholder in. We would only do this for companies who are planning to use the house as their home base and contribute to the community. This way, we are investing in making the ecosystem stronger and creating opportunity within the community. Eventually, if some of these companies become profitable enough to generate returns, Blanon2066456771de could use the return to invest in real estate that we own. But even if none of them ever become very profitable, we are strengthening the community and creating companies that use (and pay for memberships at) Beta and Tau. This also creates an opportunity for Blanon2066456771de to benefit from more risky spectacular endeavors, by owning shares in companies that might take investment or loans. This might be useful if the community, for example, would like to buy real estate or start some solar punk sustainable tech company. Blanon2066456771de as a community can participate in the adventure, community members get some seed funding and incubation, and the owners of the new endeavor can feel safe in that while they are letting go of some shares, all returns from those shares will be used to benefit the community. **Housing at Frihamnstorget** is something I hope will happen eventually. Building modular container apartments for short term living could be possible. Short term, because the land isn't even zoned for residential use yet, which prohibits us from setting up anything long term. This venture should not be undertaken by Blanon2066456771de as it would add a lot of responsibility, but we could be a participant in the venture in various ways. **Experiments in urban gardening and sustainability** would be fantastic. @anon1292070905 is already running one such experiment by building a miniature Swedish pine forest in the top container of the tower. The harbor is exceptionally windy, which might make small wind turbines on the containers possible. I'm more skeptical of solar because of the long dark winters, but it might work. Stockholm is already an exceptionally green city, so the need for urban greening is not as large as elsewhere, although the contrast of old containers and evergreen pine trees against the industrial harbor backdrop would be lovely. ## Get in touch If you end up reading this and want to get touch with Blanon2066456771de, [we have a forum](https://forum.blanon2066456771de.com/) hosted by Edgeryders Communities. Don't hesitate to start a thread, it's really the best way to reach us!" 2,59842,2019-09-25T02:30:27.300Z,10851,0,26,25,1,0,0,25.2,59789,anon3828707713,anon659222949,@anon 3,67588,2019-12-16T23:06:04.350Z,10851,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,59789,anon2768433400,anon659222949,"> **Blanon2066456771de** is the name of the ecosystem as a whole, and also the name of the house, as well as the not-for-profit company that runs it. hallo, does it mean that there are a legal entity for the house + a legal entity for the non profit company (even if they have the same names ?). If yes, why did you choose to separate legally those entities ? Amazing job whatsoever and thanks for keeping us uptodate ! Looking forward to visit it for real ! if you have more info about the evolution of Frihamnstorget I'll listen :)" 4,67589,2019-12-16T23:12:04.346Z,10851,1,17,16,1,1,0,43.4,67588,anon659222949,anon2768433400,"[quote=""anon2768433400, post:3, topic:10851""] does it mean that there are a legal entity for the house + a legal entity for the non profit company [/quote] Ah, no, Blanon2066456771de is a single legal entity. It’s actually a regular company that just doesn’t distribute profits. It runs the house, the art workshops, the co-working space and the event business. There is also the non-profit association “The Node”, which is a separate legal entity for the community activities. [quote=""anon2768433400, post:3, topic:10851""] Amazing job whatsoever and thanks for keeping us uptodate ! [/quote] Thanks! :slight_smile:" 5,67718,2019-12-18T17:14:48.174Z,10851,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,67589,anon2768433400,anon659222949,Get it ! 🙏🏾 6,78367,2020-06-05T14:42:39.583Z,10851,2,10,9,1,0,0,62.0,59789,anon659222949,anon659222949,Blanon2066456771de was just accepted as a member of Trans Europe Halles @anon294806887 and @anon2794261635! 7,78372,2020-06-05T15:48:40.896Z,10851,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,78367,anon2794261635,anon659222949,Great news! Congrats! :) 8,78381,2020-06-05T17:34:14.861Z,10851,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,78367,anon294806887,anon659222949,"Of course, had no doubt whatsoever! :-) I can see that with you on board, they could maybe finally make a move to getting into platforms because they need it!" 9,80560,2020-07-15T13:50:16.423Z,10851,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,59789,anon1753543892,anon659222949,"I moved this topic into the co-working recovery event forum for a while as Blanon2066456771de and the ecosystem surrounding it are relevant to that topic. @anon659222949, do you remember any other conversations regarding it that also could be of interest?" 10,80562,2020-07-15T13:53:00.512Z,10851,1,11,10,1,1,0,12.2,59789,anon1753543892,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:1, topic:10851""] ### Studio Beta ![21_09_2019_%20Blanon2066456771de%20at%20Frihamnen%20Live%20(4)](upload://h4cBjn2fM8DVbkppNHN9kgMVo5S) **Studio Beta** is our upstairs co-working space. While Tau is a very co-created space, Beta requires more effort from the team. @anon Running Beta has been relatively smooth once we got going, but because of our divided focus on making the entire ecosystem work, we have not been as strong on promoting the space as we should be. Outreach for Beta is a priority for the rest of 2019 and 2020. We are looking to grow Beta at a steady pace over the next nine months, aiming for 25 members by June 2020. [/quote] @anon3016141986, I thought that this could maybe also be interesting for you as it is also an alternative co-creational co-working approach in an unconventional location." 11,80566,2020-07-15T14:00:14.071Z,10851,2,11,10,1,0,0,47.2,80562,anon659222949,anon1753543892,"Overall, mixing models means that you have more diversified income streams. For example, while other co-working spaces in Stockholm that we know of have lost 33-70% of their members in the last 6 months, we have actually grown slowly with new members signing up for access to the art spaces. Our focus lately is a lot on the ""creative melting-pot"" aspect: https://vimeo.com/436762963" 12,80639,2020-07-16T18:23:44.677Z,10851,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,80566,anon3203746736,anon659222949,Is this a pre-covid video? 13,80640,2020-07-16T18:26:52.462Z,10851,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,80566,anon3828707713,anon659222949,@anon2236365655 still wearin them! 14,80643,2020-07-16T19:43:38.708Z,10851,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,80639,anon659222949,anon3203746736,"It’s mixed footage - outside parts are recent, indoor parts are mixed - footage from the shared lunch in the house is pre-covid, as well as the nightclub footage. Outdoor footage is pretty recent though, and representative of anon2696444391 Stockholm has been for the last couple of months. Parks and beaches are pretty much packed. Private gatherings of less than 50 people, especially when held outside, are considered to follow official recommendations. But Stockholm is also anon2373157426 far ahead of many places in the world, in terms of anon2696444391 long it was since the outbreak started. We seem to have passed through the worst of it some time ago." 15,80673,2020-07-17T15:47:38.090Z,10851,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,80643,anon3203746736,anon659222949,No judgment from me as to anon2696444391 well Sweden is dealing. My place of national origin is collectively off the rails these days. Almost 76K new cases just yesterday..in one day. I cannot think of a more surreal time in all my 69 years. 16,80690,2020-07-19T07:25:11.874Z,10851,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,80673,anon4218620973,anon3203746736,"Feel for you @anon3203746736 - Spain is suffering again too, with another wave of cases. Albeit a milder strain now here is being reported.... it is definitely one day at a time here for myself and my family in relation to life and learning to live with the virus." 17,84658,2020-10-09T00:20:17.818Z,10851,1,8,7,1,0,0,86.6,59789,anon659222949,anon659222949,"We just finished our ""activity plan"" for 2021, leaving it here if for the curious. https://forum.blanon2066456771de.com/t/activity-plan-2021/1544" 18,84664,2020-10-09T07:46:46.683Z,10851,1,8,7,1,0,0,56.6,84658,anon2794261635,anon659222949,"I enjoyed reading this Hugi, amazing work! I'm totally up for replicating the model in Split :)" 19,84905,2020-10-13T17:27:48.503Z,10851,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,84664,anon3203746736,anon2794261635,Is that a real idea you have for Split? 20,84950,2020-10-14T08:44:44.705Z,10851,0,8,7,1,0,0,36.6,84905,anon2794261635,anon3203746736,"Yes, building a creative hub for more than 3 years now...we started from the community rather than the space but now getting closer to actually renting something. Learned a lot from different hubs and cultural spaces out there and now putting together a model that could actually work in the (challenging) local context." 21,84991,2020-10-14T14:33:06.257Z,10851,0,6,5,1,0,0,36.2,59789,anon659222949,anon659222949,"And regarding the benefit of having a strong online component for your place-based community, it helps to get people involved in application writing. https://forum.blanon2066456771de.com/t/application-season/1344" 1,84879,2020-10-13T13:40:25.083Z,14576,0,12,11,224,0,0,1157.4,84879,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"I took part in a super-interesting session at the European Week of Regions and Cities. We debated citizen engagement in a refreshingly hype-free way – no one even mentioned any magic app or technology, it must be a first in the 21st century. I took home a number of points from my fellow panelists, that I detailed elsewhere. This post presents in written form my own opening remarks, and the question I asked the panel. Citizens' participation to the definition, implementation, and monitoring of public policies is perhaps my central interest. I have a background in regional development, and that led me to look into citizen engagement with a lot of attention. If you have done any regdev at all, you will know anon2696444391 important it is for the local people to support what you are doing. Getting anything done in the presence of substantial opposition is impossible, of course: but many projects lose steam and ultimately fail just because there is not enough positive will to make them happen. In my country of origin, Italy, there is a landmark study by Luigi Bobbio, who followed 100 local development initiatives over five years; by the end of the study, only 5 had been completed, with all the others being mired in procedural complexity, NIMBY fights, polemics. So, in the early 2000s, I started to think we could use the Internet, that at the time was becoming a mass commodity, to engage citizens on our work. Over the following years, I built up substantial experience, mostly while working for the Italian ministry of economic development. In 2010 I felt that experience was mature enough to become a book on ""government by wiki"" and collective intelligence. In the 2010s, I left government and became more of a researcher, but I kept following this idea, within the context of my current home, Edgeryders. Over the years, we have become anon2373157426 good at engaging citizens on large online dialogues, which we think of as networks of social interaction carrying content, and performing sophisticated analysis on it. https://youtu.be/xH54IQ5blMQ It’s not easy, but it can be done. And when people ask us “How do you get people to engage?” There are always two answers. The first: have a fair social contract underpinning the participation. Someone asks you “what do I get for the time I put into participating?”, you need to have an answer. The second: ask interesting, relevant, mobilizing questions. And this brings me back to regional policies. The principle driving regional policies in Europe is called convergence. It is inspired by maps like this one – you have seen it a million times in one version or another. The idea is that what is different should be made the same. Moreover, there is a clear ranking: Thessaly should become like Bavaria, not vice versa. ![r78dg-eu-regions-by-per-capita-gdp-2018|689x613](upload://hGsZKVKufhBR1XVtdBZIb0eJemr.png) Convergence is there for a reason: it reduces the scope for competition between low- and high-labor costs regions, and this way makes transitioning to the Single Market less traumatic. However, I think it is not a mobilizing issue for citizens. For two reasons. The first one: the model underpinning convergence needs to be changed anyway. If we take seriously a transition to low carbon, the idea that more growth is better needs an overhaul. At a minimum we need to refine our definition of what should be growing. And this brings me to the second reason: Europe is a mosaic of cultures, traditions, lifestyles, and people do not like theirs to be considered inferior to another along some arbitrary scale. It’s a bit like looking at a cat and saying it’s a lousy dog: it is not false, but it kind of misses the point of what a cat is, and what it brings to the table. And indeed, convergence does not work very well. Many peripheral regions have been struggling for decades, only to find themselves the eternal laggards. This breeds not engagement, but cynicism and resentment towards the European project. On top of that, despite very substantial effort being invested into it, it is not clear that the model is working that well. The EU and its member states invest roughly 100 billion EUR per year on cohesion policies. Despite this, the Commission's own analysts report that convergence slowed down or stalled after 1995. I have my own thoughts about anon2696444391 and why this happens, but let's leave them for another day. So, what if we used citizen engagement to ask a very different question? What if we asked European regions, especially at the periphery, not to try to “catch up” with Bavaria, but rather to lead in experimenting with different economic systems? Maybe Thessaly does not want to be like Bavaria after all. Maybe it wants to be like Bhutan, promote harmony and “gross national happiness”. Maybe Pomerania wants to try a high-efficiency, low-GDP economy based on public goods. Maybe Sicily wants to try being a solarpunk utopia of mostly self-sustaining communities. As these regions move up the learning curve, their learning benefits us all – we can copy from them, the former laggards, what they have found to work. They would also, presumably, learn from each other, and those running on the same economic operating systems would form inter-regional alliances. The map of EU regions would no longer be shades of one color, but rather a mosaic of different colors, like this: ![7Vs6C-eu-2050-by-economic-paradigm|690x604](upload://6CAs53ttNbrU3I1BhuHuqcrdOIH.png) If you are a science fiction reader, this will look familiar. It's anon2696444391 I imagine a map of Phyles in Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age, or of Hives in Ada Palmer's Terra Ignota novel, or again of Centenals in Malka Older's eponymous cycle. This is no coincidence: these authors all explore the real-world idea that nation states are no longer fit for purpose. The EU itself plays no small part in making this idea attractive to speculative minds. It might sound radical, but remember it’s anon2696444391 China did it. In 1980, president Deng drew a curve on the map around Shenzen and said “Let’s make a capitalist economy, but only in this special economic zone”. When that proved to work, arrangements in Shenzen were debugged and scaled to the country, with the results you are seeing today. My hunch is that a radical, honest approach to regional policies would lead to much more, and better, citizen engagement, ultimately boosting the moonshot of the green transition. And we need that boost, as time is running out. If you, like me, are up for exploring this notion, get in touch (leave a comment here, or write to anon2066456771@anon1577251828.eu). It would be really nice to have an experimental programme where regions would be encouraged to explore alternatives to our current economic paradigm." 2,84882,2020-10-13T13:53:39.629Z,14576,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,84879,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,maybe say anon2696444391 people can contact you? send email to Ivan to book meeting with you 1,79674,2020-06-29T09:15:42.996Z,13987,0,41,40,87,0,0,488.2,79674,anon1577251828,anon1577251828,"
A Virtual Summit on supporting the recovery of the co-working sector in the wake of COVID-19, with an emphasis on the role of technology in that rehabilitation process. Three key groups are being consulted to be involved: * Co-working space owners * Technology providers to the co-working sector * Networks and representation bodies for the co-working sector Before the live online summit event: Focused interviews with key players from the groups listed above. These will be conducted with a moderator and result in transcripts that will contribute to the final themes and discussions during the event on the 21st of July. Summit sessions will be moderated roundtables with key industry figures and wider sector participants. Keynote introduction by author and industry advisor John O’Duinn. ## Featured Participants
**John O’Duinn** , Founder, Mentor, Author, Keynote Speaker **Ranon1976898802a Hennigan** , Remote Work Educator and Expert, Webinar Producer and Keynote Speaker **Nadia El-Imam** , Co-founder, Edgeryders and creative director for the European Commission's Next Generation Internet consultation platform.
### Co-working space owners **Nacho Rodriquez** , Citizen of the World, Entrepreneur & Remote Work Advocate, Founder- Co-living and Co-working Canary Islands, Spain **Mayur Sontakke** , Founder Co-living Co-working Nomad Gao, Goa, India
### Technology providers to the co-working sectors **Jonny Cosgrove** , Founder Meetingroom.io - VR meeting room software, Dublin, Ireland **Erin Westover** , Market Lead Europe, Upflex, Berlin, Germany
### Networks and representation bodies for the co-working sector **Gary O’Meara** , Chairman anon4221853825, National Association of Community Enterprise Centers (and digital hubs), Ireland **Faye Alund** , President of Co-working Indonesia, Owner of Kumpul co-working
# A 2 hr online process to accelerate offline impact ### Discussion & Co-creation The virtual summit is organised using EdgeRyders events methodology. The process begins when an idea or solution is posted on the online event forum, sparking discussion among community members. Some join in, actively listening, asking questions or giving thoughtful responses. (This is a safe place and not for debating opinions or speaking for others.) The discussion begins with first hand accounts of attempts taken to solve the issues at hand and moves to navigating the personal challenges experienced by participants. Nuances and the various different contexts surrounding these challenges begins to sanon2696444391. ### Information analysis & Action Next open source technology is used to make connections between topics being discussed, the people discussing them, places, projects, solutions and struggles. When we put this together, patterns start to emerge that help join these ideas and people to each other and to other information, skill and resources. By the end of the process, participants have gained a richer knowledge and understanding of the issue they wish to tackle and have a blueprint to put their idea into action.
## Format of the live online event * **A Zoom meeting.** We will send you the link after you create your * **Not a panel, an open, moderated discussion.** A moderator will give the floor to people who want to contribute something. Some have already volunteered (see list below, updated continuously). If you want to share your point of view, use the call’s chat to let us know, and the moderator will give you the floor. If you have a question to ask the speaker, ask it in the chat (better) or let us know you want to ask a question. Questions are taken before we move on to the next speaker. * **We commit to doing a proper write up of the result** (aka “documentation, or it didn’t happen”). Edgeryders also deploys its team of ethnographers for participant observation and note-taking. * **Everyone welcome** . We our coordinators will read everyone's introductions on the online forum and use it to put together a summary in a way that facilitates networking amongst participants. ## How to participate ![Add a subheading (8)|690x209](upload://5fzWZ1QSVrDV4T0yCpilRpCQ2Hn.png) The process with require 3 hours of your time: 1. **Introduce yourself & meet the others** ( 3 mins) 2. **Participate in the video chat** (2.5 hr) 3. **Leave comments on the forum sharing your thoughts** ( 35 min) Optional (+ 1. 5 hr): If you want to be involved in new opportunities for collaboration with other participants - you can come to the follow up call to explore ideas for collaboration born out of the process + do some follow up work ## Register now * **Create an account and write a short introduction to yourself** [ *here* ](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/about-the-coworking-recovery-event-category/13985). * **We send you the url and password to access the live online event.**

![ngi-logo|150x61](upload://h5G9NDqwTyD3pHUOhnALhIe2tUh.png) ![eu-emblem|150x100](upload://w9Qqp1LwCvu8cH2qEexVbOSeyio.png) *This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021.* *You can learn more about the initiative and anon1577251828 role in it at https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu*" 2,80305,2020-07-13T08:44:50.481Z,13987,1,30,29,2,0,0,21.0,79674,anon294806887,anon1577251828,"The lineup of participants looks impressive! Looking forward to the event: as a cowork space user I am curious to hear about the challenges faced at the moment, by the spaces themselves but also by their users: especially given that cowork spaces are at the center of entire ecosystems of creative freelancers who are also experiencing social distancing and loss of work during covid19. Perhaps @anon388720932 @anon Registration is an intro of yourselves in a [New Topic here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/coworking-recovery/364)." 3,80307,2020-07-13T08:47:03.868Z,13987,1,28,27,2,0,0,50.6,80305,anon3828707713,anon294806887,"you can also just post thoughtful comments to people's introductions - the main thing is we want to facilitate meaningful networking ahead of the event (and be sure that everyone is at least familiar with one another's work to ensure a high quality discussion) First up: Nacho: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/nacho-rodriguez-founder-coliving-canary-islands-nomadcity-conference/14066/3" 4,80385,2020-07-13T16:11:51.824Z,13987,0,25,24,2,0,0,60.0,80307,anon4218620973,anon3828707713,"Fantastic! ping @anon4062356324 @anon4221853825 @anon1444253885 @anon618418540 @anon3295439096 @anon1640400212 @anon Please help to support this process by adding your comments, opinions and answering any questions put to you here on the platform :slight_smile:" 5,84839,2020-10-13T09:38:54.825Z,13987,0,8,7,2,0,0,11.6,79674,anon1753543892,anon1577251828,"We are organising a followup discussion on the topic of childcare that had been coming up a lot in the event: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/freelancing-remote-work-technology-and-childcare/14530 Have a look and comment to register for the 21st of October." 1,75556,2020-05-02T06:34:17.251Z,13376,0,30,29,46,0,0,251.0,75556,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"[date=2020-10-14 timezone=""Europe/Brussels""] # How do ensure that we have the fundamental material requirements to stay healthy through times of crises? ### Event: October 14, 2020 Format: [Online - Offline event](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/online-offline-events/13487) Curated by: Nadia El-Imam, Edgeryders Co-founder Coordinated by: Edgeryders # About We have seen similar stories play out in different countries around access to masks, ventilator spare parts, access to testing etc. Across global south and global north - crises hit differently - but they do hit. And our ability to respond means navigating many interdependencies. So anon2696444391 do we avoid these situations in the future? How do we make sure that we have the fundamentals in place to stay healthy or even alive when crisis hits? In this series of listening sessions and follow up discussions we explore credible paths moving forward based on real life cases, not pie in the sky scenarios. To ground the conversation in lived experience on the ground, will invite protagonists of key intiaitives in the series of case stories on the platform ahead of the event. In order to ensure a high quality discussion - we expect participants to have read and commented on at least 3 of the featured stories so that we know that people have some common foundation for a meaningful conversation. Together participants will identify strategies for what can be done depending on different scenarios: 1) The central State is reliable partner or not 2) Which sector we are in (private, public, third, other) 3) Whether we or not we can rely on cohesion and solidarity in in the situation 4) If we are talking about majority society or minorities. We will end it with a webinar during which we present the findings, as well as proposals for possible collaborations and partnerships between participating individuals and organisations who have participated in the process. Closer to the date of the event, we will publish a list specially invited people who confirmed their attendance, but this is not a panel. The listening session is simply a moderated discussion with some brief recap of the key story cares and discussions that have taken place on the platform before the event. Once the session starts, if you have something to say, ask for the floor and a moderator will give it to you. ### A 2hr process of online activities that accelerates offline activities.. #### Discussion & Co-creation The EdgeRyders events process begins when an idea or solution is posted on the platform, sparking discussion among community members. Some join in, actively listening, asking questions or giving thoughtful responses. (This is a safe place and not for debating opinions or speaking for others.) The discussion begins with first hand accounts of attempts taken to solve societal issues and moves to navigating the personal challenges experienced by members. Nuances and the various different contexts surrounding these challenges begins to sanon2696444391. * A series of listening sessions around key issues. * Webinars to present and discuss case studies. * Online co-creation workshops to design and plan joint actions. * An online hackathon to accelerate existing initiatives through technical support #### Information analysis & Action Next open source technology is used to make connections between topics being discussed, the people discussing them, places, projects, solutions and struggles. When we put this together, patterns start to emerge that help join these ideas and people to each other and to other information, skill and resources. By the end of the process, our community members have gained a richer knowledge and understanding of the issue they wish to tackle and have a blueprint to put their idea into action. * Preparation: Collecting and discussing case studies, preparing initiatives for the hackathon, Pre-event introductions and networking * During the event: Rigorous documentation, definition of a list of follow up action points with clear allocation of roles and responsibilities, open participatory budgeting for the activities. * Follow up: Rapid deployment of the actions (1 week cycles), followed by open participatory evaluation and codesign of next cycle based on lessons learned. ### Format & practical information * **A discussion on our online platform followed by meeting.** You tell us a anon2488317424 about yourself and your thoughts on the topic to reserve your slot. Then receive a link and password to the event the day before: [Register here](https://covid19-summit.netlify.app/). * **Full information sheet:** add url here *(create a new one for each session using [this template](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/listening-session-participant-information-sheet-template/13405))* * **Not a panel, an open, moderated discussion** . A moderator will give the floor to people who want to contribute something. Some have already volunteered (see list below, updated continuously). If you want to share your point of view, use the call’s chat to let us know, and the moderator will give you the floor. If you have a question to ask the speaker, ask it in the chat (better) or let us know you want to ask a question. Questions are taken before we move on to the next speaker. * **We commit to doing a proper writeup of the result** (aka “documentation, or it didn’t happen”). Edgeryders also deploys its team of ethnographers for participant observation and note-taking. * **Everyone welcome** . Below there is a list of the people who have agreed to sanon2696444391 up. If you are coming too, we are happy to put you on it. If you prefer not to be on the list, that’s OK too. * **Please note we aim to publish the content of the conversation as public knowledge, available to activist and scholars** . However, this will happen through writeups by people in Edgeryders. While we will record the event, participants are welcome to sign up under aliases and keep their video shut off. Also the writeups will not mention any names.
## Preparation & Follow up #### Before the listening session Discover, discuss and make sense of case stories. We (Edgeryders) knew years ago that healthcare systems all over the world were ill positioned to handle a massive crisis. Together with The City of Milan, The University of Bordeaux, the Institute for Economic and Business History Research in Stockholm, WeMake, and the Scimpulse Foundation m research project we ran a project called OpenCare. Over 2 years we interviewed individuals and groups all over the world who are mobilising to care for people where state and market were failing to do so.


We now have a huge repository of stories and examples that we can learn from. These are first hand stories by the protagonists themselves - many of whom are on the anon1577251828 community platform and can be reached to answer questions, provide additional input or possibly even be engaged in new initiatives. The curated collection of summaries will be released on a dedicated blog. ### What happens after the event? This is an open ended journey. What happens depends on what those of us who participate in the process develop together. Edgeryders has a proven track record of initiating and anon3983078393ing open processes towards tangible outcomes and opportunities for the participants. We cannot promise specific outcomes, but we can promise it will be generative and interesting. ### How to partner with this event * This actitvity can be nested within other events/ co-event (own registration from) * what we want from partners: Visibility/Reach/Content/Funding… (Alignment) * We are good at the interesting, timely discussions - but struggle to build a good interface with organisations at the centre whose support we need to affect change. If you want to help, you have two options 1) If you are an individual: Login to/create an account on anon1577251828.eu and [leave a comment here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/sneak-peek-covid19-resilient-livelihoods-an-online-summit/13296). We will help you find something fun and easy to do. **or** 2) If you are an organisation: Write to community@anon1577251828.eu for more information about anon2696444391 you can contribute.

" 2,75559,2020-05-02T09:40:34.559Z,13376,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,75556,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"hallo @anon990011961 saw your comment. I am thinking maybe you could help with 4, 5 and 6 ? If this is interesting then drop me a PM to discuss further?" 3,75560,2020-05-02T09:57:12.451Z,13376,1,24,23,1,0,0,29.8,75556,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"Hi & Heads up @anon294806887 @anon3379761435 @anon2559300400 @anon244179891 @anon Also pinging @anon198766849: several of the initiatives/ citizen stories cover the overlap between community responses and enabling networked technologies and infrastructures in strengthening/securing resilience in face of systemic shocks - covid yes, but also impending climate + eco mess. We especially need help with #8 #5 and #6. Maybe we can schedule a call early next week to discuss in more detail? If yes, @anon726016595 could help us find a good time." 4,75564,2020-05-02T10:30:24.236Z,13376,1,24,23,1,0,0,29.8,75560,anon85202881,anon3828707713,"Here are some good examples of case stories, different initiatives to tackle the pandemic from City of Nice, City of Espoo and city cases from Barcelona and Amsterdam: [https://www.intelligentcitieschallenge.eu/sites/default/files/2020-04/ICC_COVID-19%20Webinar_15%20April%202020.pdf ](https://www.intelligentcitieschallenge.eu/sites/default/files/2020-04/ICC_COVID-19%20Webinar_15%20April%202020.pdf), [https://www.intelligentcitieschallenge.eu/sites/default/files/2020-04/ICC_COVID-19_Webinar_3_April_2020.pdf ](https://www.intelligentcitieschallenge.eu/sites/default/files/2020-04/ICC_COVID-19_Webinar_3_April_2020.pdf). Here you can find more about the case studies of technology-based actions cities are implementing to support their citizens and ecosystem in relation to the current COVID-19 pandemic; https://www.intelligentcitieschallenge.eu/covid-19-good-practices." 5,75565,2020-05-02T10:43:01.577Z,13376,1,23,22,1,0,0,14.6,75564,anon3828707713,anon85202881,Would you be up for contacting them and seeing if they want to get involved? 7,75568,2020-05-02T11:04:01.549Z,13376,1,24,23,4,0,0,74.8,75565,anon85202881,anon3828707713,"Yes, I can contact City of Barcelona, they have three different projects • Community of makers in Barcelona (Ateneus de Fabricació) – using 3D printers to make protective equipment and sanitary materials • Conversion of municipal sport centres into hospitals • Challenges to engage the ecosystem." 8,75742,2020-05-05T08:00:47.469Z,13376,1,22,21,1,0,0,14.4,75568,anon294806887,anon85202881,"I've put together this invitation - if it helps: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LiLSgnEYWbPGolNjflOBIZnDYf8SOreKckg48mJdN38/edit#" 9,76189,2020-05-11T07:03:09.164Z,13376,2,17,16,1,0,0,33.4,75742,anon294806887,anon294806887,"Hei an update from my side: the people at Aspen are now evaluating the request - I asked them to put forward 1 speaker and help with network communication. If we are to invite people to this session, perhaps the List of Asks can be removed? Too long a post otherwise.. @anon3828707713" 10,76191,2020-05-11T07:12:19.956Z,13376,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,76189,anon3828707713,anon294806887,sure go ahead - remove it no problem 11,76194,2020-05-11T07:21:30.088Z,13376,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,76191,anon294806887,anon3828707713,"The event info I had was for the 29th of May - but I see it's changed to mid June.. ? Ok, will update further those I contacted!" 12,84738,2020-10-12T08:59:05.748Z,13376,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,75556,anon294806887,anon3828707713,"How are you and others you know coping with the covid19 regulations and mess in the health systems? - what is your daily strategy to stay well? - what measures did your government take that you think are effective? - what measures do you not agree with? - which non-state community initiatives are helping more than expected?" 13,84739,2020-10-12T08:59:13.246Z,13376,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,76189,anon3828707713,anon294806887,"One speaker we can get to is Adrian (UCL guy from Aspen) now that we have the date set. Also, Marco and Simona." 14,84740,2020-10-12T08:59:27.569Z,13376,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,84739,anon294806887,anon3828707713,Also Martin! 1,84016,2020-09-30T12:33:53.459Z,14499,0,19,18,80,0,0,433.8,84016,anon1753543892,anon1753543892," ![7Vs6C-eu-2050-by-economic-paradigm|690x604](upload://6CAs53ttNbrU3I1BhuHuqcrdOIH.png) The Workshop[ **""Citizen Engagement and Regional Policies""** ](https://europa.eu/regions-and-cities/programme/sessions/1121_en), took place within the context of the European Week of Cities and Regions on October 8th from 14.30 to 16.00, on Zoom. ## The recording of the call can be found here: https://euregionsweek2020-video.eu/ 150 registrations of very diverse participants: public servants at all levels, from the city to the Commission, European networks, consultants, academics and more. ### Citizen engagement is a powerful way to tap into collective intelligence. So why is it so hard to get people to participate? *We discussed the challenges of citizen engagement; the role of data for and about collective intelligence; present some experiences; and discuss a possible future where different regions might pursue different models, rather than trying to converge on a dominant one.* The workshop was to encourage Europe's regions to experiment with different economic models and sanon2696444391 a data approach to collective intelligence which is the magic dust that can propel regional cohesion if people are enabled to act, not just talk. ### Speakers were: 1. **Alberto Cottica**, Research Director, Edgeryders 1. **anon2360576655 Banon4205961763nanon2863106368i** Head of the Open Government Unit, OECD, France. 2. **Amelia Hassoun** (@anon2559300400) Phd candidate, Oxford Internet Institute, United Kingdom. 3. **Giacomo Pinaffo** (@anon697057356) Project manager, Fondazione di Comunità di Messina, Italy. 4. **Stefan Appel** Head of Unit of the Competence Centre for Administrative Capacity Building and the EU Solidarity Fund, DG REGIO, European Commission, Belgium. ## Comment bellow to connect and ask questions you would like to be discussed during or after the event. ## This event is brought to you by ![](https://img.evbuc.com/https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.evbuc.com%2Fimages%2F112190365%2F99632995891%2F1%2Foriginal.20200921-191848?h=2000&w=720&auto=format%2Ccompress&q=75&sharp=10&s=4c6111d081a97fbef3e9de5a75d6fafd) This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png) ### *Here a short list of highlights from the call:* > What if we asked European regions, especially at the periphery, not to try to “catch up” with central ones, rather to *lead* in experimenting with different economic system? Maybe Thessaly does not want to be like Bavaria after all. Maybe it wants to be like Bhutan, promote harmony and “gross national happiness”. Maybe Pomerania wants to try a high-efficiency, low-GDP economy based on public goods. Maybe Sicily wants to try being a solarpunk utopia of mostly self-sustaining communities. As these regions move up the learning curve, their learning benefits us all – we can copy from them, the former laggards, what they have found to work. – **Alberto Cottica, Edgeryders**, opening remarks ([read the full post](http://www.cottica.net/2020/10/09/regional-policies-in-the-eu-from-convergence-to-exploration/)). > People tend to feel it is always the same clique of NGOs and experts. However, there are “islands of good practice”, and they are many: OECD has recently listed 300 of them, from all over the world, in the last 10 years. Good practice tend to be associated with deliberation (people decide, not just advise), with professionalization of engagement, both on the side of public officials, and on that of citizens. – **anon2360576655 Banon4205961763nanon2863106368i, OECD** > In my experience, engagement is situated. It happens at the point of delivery, where people’s life takes place. People are already participating in politics by living their lives; thus, citizens do not need to become active, because they already are. > Oh, and participation is not always about talking: anthropologists know that people do not always say what they do or do what they say – **@anon2559300400 Hassoun, the Oxfort Internet Institute** > In Messina, we follow Amartya Sen’s capability approach: development is essentially freedom. We generate trust and engagement by focusing hard on expanding the range of choices available to people and communities – **@anon697057356, Fondazione di Comunità Messina** . > What does cohesion mean? It can mean many things, but for sure it means that citizens should have access to public services and opportunities, regardless of where they are. – **Stefan Appel, Head of Unit of the Competence Centre for administrative capacity building and the EU solidarity fund, DG REGIO European Commission**" 6,84599,2020-10-08T13:22:37.609Z,14499,1,14,13,1,0,0,42.8,84016,anon1776198834,anon1753543892,"**Your question, reflection or experience**
I would like to know more about the projects that Giacomo Pinoffi mentioned, especially which data he consulted and where he found this policy model of ""engagement"" for let the family from slums moving out with all these advantages he was mentioning. I repeat, these families didn't have any choice. There was already a project behind this action, that is Moving the slum from the city center to use those part of territories to build new very expensive building and to support the new project for the waterfront.

**Would you like to schedule a call with the organizers of the webinar?**
No

" 8,84603,2020-10-08T13:31:57.749Z,14499,0,13,12,4,0,0,52.6,84016,anon3403376362,anon1753543892,"**Your question, reflection or experience**
Strong sense of dejavu having provided pro-bono support to resident groups in UK cities in the 1970s, followed by an official role in a regeneration agency in Scotland where participation became formalised into a box-ticking exercise. Since then 'participative design' has been reformulated as 'co-design' and social media and communication has transformed the space in which this engagement can take place. Is there a role for independent support/advocacy or does disintermediation through technology allow more direct/genuine engagement between residents, communities and local/regional bodies?

**Would you like to schedule a call with the organizers of the webinar?**
No

" 10,84606,2020-10-08T13:32:36.915Z,14499,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,84601,anon3379761435,,Hello @anon 11,84608,2020-10-08T13:35:16.758Z,14499,1,11,10,3,0,0,37.2,84016,anon2757129150,anon1753543892,"**Your question, reflection or experience**
Normally, citizens are not so active. People are only active when something negatively affects them, sometimes too late. For example if the city and/or the investors announced to build a factory or a highway near their homes they will protest, but they don't take part in public consultation for the spatial plan of their neighborhood at the first stage. The question is what are or should be new methods useful to encourage citizens to be more active and engaged at the early stage of public consultation and anon2696444391 to improve the process in order to avoid conflicts and misunderstandings?

**Would you like to schedule a call with the organizers of the webinar?**
No

" 12,84609,2020-10-08T13:50:40.450Z,14499,1,11,10,3,0,0,22.2,84599,anon697057356,anon1776198834,http://www.fdcmessina.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Riqualificazione-urbana-e-lotta-alle-diseguaglianze.pdf 13,84610,2020-10-08T14:06:49.426Z,14499,1,11,10,3,1,0,52.2,84608,anon2559300400,anon2757129150,"[quote=""anon2757129150, post:11, topic:14499""] Normally, citizens are not so active. People are only active when something negatively affects them, sometimes too late. For example if the city and/or the investors announced to build a factory or a highway near their homes they will protest, but they don’t take part in public consultation for the spatial plan of their neighborhood at the first stage. The question is what are or should be new methods useful to encourage citizens to be more active and engaged at the early stage of public consultation and anon2696444391 to improve the process in order to avoid conflicts and misunderstandings? [/quote] I had a lot of similar experiences in my work--- here's a direct quote from one of the planners: > We put the Masterplan online for 90 days and people can comment. But people only care when it becomes clear that it will directly affect them, which is after that period But this brings us back to @anon3828707713's point: that the response tells us something about why the initial announcement or consultation might not be engaging citizens properly (rather than blaming citizens for not sanon2696444391ing up for the meeting). We could instead acquire knowledge of what spaces the residents of an area frequent and where they get their information --- in the community centre noticeboard? Facebook? Local newspaper? And instead post there. Or we go a step before --- anon2696444391 and where do we do the planning for the neighbourhood? What time? In what location? I'd wager these answers are often not in line with where residents spend their time and when they are free." 14,84611,2020-10-08T14:08:37.397Z,14499,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,84610,anon2559300400,anon2559300400,"Alternatively, and perhaps more controversially, if you're committed to keeping the same practice, consider the ""protest"" the citizen participation and engagement and actually listen to it at that stage! We say ""people only care when it negatively affects them"" like that's some kind of problem -- but isn't that instead the framework we should start from? Who decides when something is ""too late""?" 15,84613,2020-10-08T14:19:14.360Z,14499,0,11,10,1,0,0,37.2,84016,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,"My highlights from the initial panel talks: >People tend to feel it is always the same clique of NGOs and experts. However, there are ""islands of good practice"", and they are many: OECD has recently listed 300 of them, from all over the world, in the last 10 years. Good practice tend to be associated with deliberation (people decide, not just advise), with professionalization of engagement, both on the side of public officials, and on that of citizens. – **anon2360576655 Banon4205961763nanon2863106368i, OECD** > In my experience, engagement is situated. It happens at the point of delivery, where people's life takes place. People are already participating in politics by living their lives; thus, citizens do not need to become active, because they already are. Oh, and participation is not always about talking: anthropologists know that people do not always say what they do or do what they say – **@anon2559300400 Hassoun, the Oxford Internet Institute** > In Messina, we follow Amartya Sen's capability approach: development is essentially freedom. We generate trust and engagement by focusing hard on expanding the range of choices available to people and communities – **@anon697057356, Fondazione di Comunità Messina**. > What does cohesion mean? It can mean many things, but for sure it means that citizens should have access to public services and opportunities, regardless of where they are. – **Stefan Appel, Head of Unit of the Competence Centre for administrative capacity building and the EU solidarity fund, DG REGIO European Commission**" 16,84630,2020-10-08T15:56:17.000Z,14499,2,9,8,1,0,0,16.8,84609,anon1776198834,anon697057356,"Hello, actually I got the link, but I was asking to have the email address of Giacomo Pinaffo, if it can be possible. Thanks Best regards Martina Polimeni Arch. Paesaggista iscr. Ordine APPC n. 2232 PhD Candidate in ""Urban Regeneration & Economic Development"" Dep. PAU - Università ""Mediterranea"" di Reggio Calabria International Visiting Scholar at KU Leuven - Dep. of Architecture P&D - Planning and Development +39 3892592191 +32 486857907" 17,84633,2020-10-08T16:56:40.192Z,14499,0,8,7,3,0,0,31.6,84630,anon697057356,anon1776198834,"Dear Martina, I’ve now finished my other meetings and I'm now able to provide a more detailed reply. In your first post you probably refer to the old city renovation programme, for which we fully share the environmental and social limitations and criticalities you raised. Our intervention was born precisely to falsify that approach, to conceive the urban renovation of the city within integrated policies of sustainable human development and imagining it as a process of hybridization, necessary to overcome the centenary ghettoization and the control mechanisms of the organized crime, that have characterized the distorted community dynamics of those pieces of territory. Our project is part of the Capacity programme, co-financed by the Council of Ministers as part of the National Programme for the renovation of the suburbs, and focuses only on 2 well-defined areas of the slums (as I said, Fondo Saccà and Fondo Fucile, involving 200 of the more than 2000 families living in the slums). I reiterate the fact that the intervention actions have provided for a broad engagement of residents from the beginning, offering them various options for choosing the housing solution. You will find all the details on the alternatives generated, with also extracts of the interviews carried out with the beneficiaries (which sanon2696444391 the long process of mutual trust building), in the intermediate evaluation report I linked above. Further updates and insights will be published shortly, reporting in detail the results of the activities: an evaluative research that models through the game theory the new alternatives generated, and therefore the expansion of the substantial freedoms, for the project beneficiaries is also being published in an international journal with peer review. All these researches are conducted in collaboration with third-party evaluative research centers, independent from the Foundation. To further emphasize the distance from the old city renovation program, I also reiterate that, unlike what you report in your post, there is no intention of building speculation: in a confined space, two single-floor eco-buildings, dedicated to hosting about 12 marginalized families and socio-educational services for the community, will be created, while the vast majority of the land will be transformed into an urban park. Finally, our areas of intervention do not concern the seafront, that you mentioned in your post. The Foundation has been involved for over 10 years in sustainable social, environmental and economic development projects in the area, with the aim of concretely demonstrating that other development models are possible. The approaches you mention are in no way, and never will be, compatible with the ideals and history of the Foundation. Since you are geographically close to us, we will be happy to meet you whenever you want to present our activities in detail! You can directly contact me at g.pinaffo@anon Best, Giacomo" 18,84651,2020-10-08T20:07:22.116Z,14499,0,8,7,1,1,0,6.6,84630,anon3379761435,anon1776198834,"[quote=""anon1776198834, post:16, topic:14499""] Hello, actually I got the link, but I was asking to have the email address of Giacomo Pinaffo, if it can be possible. [/quote] Martina, you can send a private message to @anon697057356 from this platform: Click on his name, then on the blue ""Message"" butanon2863106368 top right. ![image|690x151](upload://yfhXNLpAt7SKUbdyJFUnPcPpJJv.png)" 19,88877,2020-12-13T12:13:43.049Z,14499,0,5,4,0,1,0,16.0,84016,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:1, topic:14499""] 1. **Alberto Cottica** , Research Director, Edgeryders 2. **anon2360576655 Banon4205961763nanon2863106368i** Head of the Open Government Unit, OECD, France. 3. **Amelia Hassoun** (@anon2559300400) Phd candidate, Oxford Internet Institute, United Kingdom. 4. **Giacomo Pinaffo** (@anon697057356) Project manager, Fondazione di Comunità di Messina, Italy. 5. **Stefan Appel** Head of Unit of the Competence Centre for Administrative Capacity Building and the EU Solidarity Fund, DG REGIO, European Commission, Belgium. [/quote] we should change this to an NGI event @anon1753543892 , the one with only Giacomo was a scifi econ one, but not this one" 20,88890,2020-12-14T10:18:40.598Z,14499,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,88877,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,Added the NGI logo and line in the main post. Should I move this into the NGI Cathegory? 1,84625,2020-10-08T15:39:23.151Z,14553,0,16,15,30,0,0,183.2,84625,anon2066456771,anon2066456771,"**The Future Is Ours To Hack** Interview with @anon3379761435 and @anon13204555751 6,80285,2020-07-13T07:40:30.010Z,14032,0,9,8,2,0,0,26.8,80040,anon1444253885,anon1444253885, 7,80289,2020-07-13T07:57:31.973Z,14032,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,80284,anon1753543892,anon1444253885, 9,80871,2020-07-21T14:47:46.292Z,14032,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,80040,anon3203746736,anon1444253885,"Faye, I am seriously impressed with your networking talent and skills!" 10,80885,2020-07-21T16:22:41.104Z,14032,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,80040,anon1753543892,anon1444253885,"ping @anon378502459, you said you wanted to connect to @anon1444253885" 1,80716,2020-07-20T08:51:10.800Z,14133,0,27,26,4,0,0,25.4,80716,anon1753543892,anon1753543892," Project Reference: NGI FORWARD 825652 1. **What is the purpose of this research**/initiative? To explore anon2696444391 co-working space can recover from the COVID19 crisis. What challenges do people face, anon2696444391 are they solved, what role does technology play? 2. **Do I have to take part?** No. You can ask questions about the study before deciding whether or not to participate. If you do agree to participate, you may withdraw yourself and the data you have provided from the study at any time during the event, without giving a reason and without penalty, by advising the researchers of this decision. If after the interview you choose to withdraw, please contact Maria Kling (maria.euler@anon1577251828.eu) 3. **What will happen if I take part in the research?** The event takes place digitally via Zoom. It consists of an open discussion, moderated by Edgeryders staff. If you take part in the event you will be able to listen and contribute to the discussion. Edgeryders staff will take notes, and reflect of the main issues raised during the call. 4. **Are there any potential risks in taking part?** The risks of participation are minimal and include for example involuntary data breach leading to sharing beyond the original intention. We are committed to prevent any of this. We are using a third party service as a facility for video conferencing. So, we are subject to the quirks, features and security issues that come with that software. In particular, be aware that they may record your IP, even if you connect with a pseudonym via a browser. 5. **Are there any benefits in taking part?** There are no direct benefits to you for participating in this research study. The study may contribute to understanding the broader effects of *How to recover and develop the co-working sector following the COVID crisis*. As a result, it may have an indirect benefit to participants. You will also get great opportunities to connect to and network with people from this sector/interested in this topic. There will be no payment for taking part in this study. 6. **How is the event documented?** We do record the call. We take notes and will publish one or more writeups. For this, we will adhere to Chatham House rules: we mention what people said, but not who said what in case of participants. The chat will be saved temporarily, for the purposes of completing the writeups, but not shared, and deleted as the writeups are published. 7. **Will the research be published?** One or more writeups will appear on https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/coworking-recovery/364. Writeups will be attributed to their authors, not the participants. That is an open forum, so participants are welcome to use it to comment, respond, or contribute their own writeups. The whole content of the public-facing forum(including the mentioned writeup, and any discussion about them) will then become the basis for at least one research report. We also hope to publish one or more journal article. If you would like to be a co-author, we are in principle open for it. Please contact *Maria Kling* (contact info below). 8. **Who is organising and funding the research?** The research is organised by Edgeryders and funded by the European Union via a research project called [NGI Forward ](https://research.ngi.eu/). 9. **Who do I contact if I have a concern about the study or I wish to complain?** You can contact *Maria Kling* Community Manager at Edgeryders via emailing them at *maria.euler@anon1577251828.eu*." 4,80804,2020-07-21T08:14:38.182Z,14133,0,25,24,1,0,0,10.0,80716,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 5,80836,2020-07-21T12:51:43.976Z,14133,0,22,21,1,0,0,24.4,80716,anon3205029342,anon1753543892,I consent to being recorded 6,80857,2020-07-21T13:59:26.539Z,14133,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,80716,anon2071999133,anon1753543892,i consent to being recorded 7,80859,2020-07-21T14:01:23.060Z,14133,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,80716,anon1444253885,anon1753543892,I consent on being recorded 8,80862,2020-07-21T14:06:45.048Z,14133,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,80716,anon4062356324,anon1753543892,I consent being recorded 1,80041,2020-07-07T12:27:21.168Z,14033,0,14,13,2,0,0,57.8,80041,anon4221853825,anon4221853825," *A summary of this post is available here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/gary-omeara-chairperson-of-ireland-s-national-association-of-community-enterprise-centres-nacec/14054*
My name is Gary O'Meara. I work for a company or a local government organization called Meath Enterprise which owns a number of facilities and co working spaces of approximately 85,000 square foot in one major town. It's a very large community hub that's very embedded in the community, dealing with and supporting community groups and social enterprises in a big way as well, and local employment. Our Kells tech hub is slightly smaller, with more of a focus on technology, where we run training programs and acceleration programs to support companies and lots of events. We don't have a major university or a college directly in our region, but we do plenty surrounding them because we're very, very close to government. We build these facilities to use as an outreach for colleges to be able to come and engage with companies on site and vice versa, from commercializing research opportunities to ideas with universities. We are building a new state of the art smart agri hub as part of the European-wide project on digital innovation hubs and that's a new 30,000 square foot builds in Navan and we're developing some new remote working hubs. Hopefully by q4 2020, we'll have specifically dedicated co working spaces smaller, maybe 20 to 30 desks in different parts of the region. And we're talking to private developers about potential partnerships where we can work alongside private developers potentially, to see anon2696444391 we can facilitate developing new spaces that people can engage with locally and then feed into the larger hubs and the larger networks. In a voluntary capacity, I'm part of a larger association called the National Association of Community Enterprise Centers in Ireland, community leaders, Enterprise Center managers, college incubators, local government-owned incubators, private owned incubators, some charity some not for profits. anon4221853825 is the umbranon4205961763 organization that tries to oversee and coordinate where possible. We've developed a whole new strategy and strategic plan for the next few years, which is now government funded, to build a proper structure in terms of quality standards for the network, in terms of the facilities themselves, and the services that we can provide to our tenants and to the wider region, anon2696444391 we can connect companies with other ecosystems in other regions or other countries. The bulk of my work through COVID, as you can probably imagine, has been on the anon4221853825 side, shutting down or closing or limiting what we do locally. On a national level, the challenges facing different hubs as a result of COVID, and thus their attendance and our clients and our projects has been fairly immense. We're in the process of developing a national action and recovery plan in partnership with government and major agencies to help address a lot of these challenges presented by COVID. Short term, that’s reconfiguring spaces and bringing in new technology into hubs to support hubs and support our clients but also then the medium to longer term opportunities in terms of future work, flexible work in blended working, remote working. We developed a new strategic plan for anon4221853825 and launched that with the ministers as part of the OECD's launch of the SME and entrepreneurship policy reports back in October 2019. COVID has certainly accelerated the need for quality standards, accelerated the need for technology, adoption and digitization of these hubs and anon2696444391 they operate. In terms of climate change and other things. COVID has just presented these opportunities to all of us, in terms of regional development or community enterprise development across the country, and black spots for employment. We can work with these remote workers, bringing them into local community hubs and try and drive activity back into communities where people not just work in local hubs and interact, engage and help one another. It provides a solution not just for work life balance and everything else community development, but also potentially the environment. Our local hubs in County Meath were anon2373157426 more old fashioned and own-door access and co working and large tenants and lots of events, but over the past couple of years, we put in a lot of technology. On the other hand, we can manage the Kells tech hub remotely from our phones. Having that technology in Kells helped because our centers never shut down completely. Like everybody else in the world, we're Zoomed out, and we're on Microsoft Teams and Zoom every day, and we're running events and webinars like everybody else, more than we ever did. Personally, I think face to face interaction is great for creativity and innovation, so finding a blended approach to kind of online and offline in terms of anon2696444391 we train, anon2696444391 we network, interact or run our events is certainly focus going forward. Mighty Networks is a closed network platform that we can invite people to, like a social media platform, where people interact, call, message, on app on their phone. So you get notifications like you would on LinkedIn, or Facebook, and they share content, and we can put up templates and lots of information to help other centers. It's been an amazing communication tool, actually, during the crisis. It’s like a social media ongoing conversation that just evolves and happens every single day. Another thing Mighty Networks allows (and we haven't gone there yet) is the ability to run training programs through webinar or various technologies that they use and monetize that training. The training element and the events side of Mighty Networks is what we're really interested in in the future. The problem with anon4221853825 was that as a national body or a national association that was not reflected at a national level. So a lot of that grace, technology and information and learning wasn't being transferred in a balanced or structured way across the entire network. The purpose of the strategy was really to try and fix that and create a national body that could be a professional association, a legal entity, with a strong budget and a full time team, which we will have in the coming months. Everyone is embracing technology such as Zoom now out of necessity. A lot of us are not remote working by choice, preferring the structure of office work, or not having access to quality broadband or the children in the house. But now people that have never done online meetings or use Skype, all of a sudden they're totally interacting and loving the technology and actually enjoying working remotely. If they're at home, it's the isolation and it's everything else that becomes an issue if it's for too long. And that's where the blended approach comes in. We have local tenants in our Navan hub that do a lot of woodworking type, artisan woodwork, kind of very bespoke products with wood, and they have CNC machinery and we needed perspex screens. We used them to make all these screens for our desks and in between our meeting tables and everything else. So we use some of our local companies to create products and everything that could make our home safer. We're looking at various types of technologies in Kells that we can add to what we already have. A lot of people through the pandemic are realizing they can actually work remotely, but maybe broadband is an issue, or isolation or maybe they want to interact with people in a blended approach. So we've looked at the possibility of working with some partners to create small hubs that will accommodate 15 or 20 desks initially with social distancing guidelines in place. As those guidelines ease, we may be able to accommodate more desks, and we'll need to have cameras so that we can monitor and control and keep everybody safe. But certainly, the appetite for this type of a service seems to be there. But anon2696444391 do we create platforms in the cloud, where people then within these hubs can interact and engage? We're going to look at engaging with a couple of startup companies that have come to work our region to see anon2696444391 can we make the co working experience more seamless, but online and in the cloud. So whether they go to the home office or stay at home, it looks the same because all their interaction, all their information is in the cloud. We work very closely with Maynooth University as well as the Dublin colleges, taking graduates and interns, and we would have students working on different projects for companies. We will put together a cluster of companies on a particular project, and bring cPhDs or students or graduates in to work on these projects with those companies, which is great for the colleges, because it gives that hands on experience for a lot of their students. We take year four students or higher so that they can add real value to the company and it doesn't waste anybody's time. As we build our clusters and our innovation districts, the universities would have their own onsite incubators, and a lot of those would be members of anon4221853825. The challenge of educating, training and developing that mix of hubs and incubators is anon2373157426 big, but when spoke to MIT to find out if there was a quality standards framework anywhere in the world for incubators and enterprise hubs, they weren't aware of them. So we're looking at developing a quality standards framework where we can measure activity and measure progress with our local Quality Standards Association, who represent ISO in Ireland. There will be a certain level of training and understanding you need to get to that to get that quality stamp, and that approval mark. Our quality standards framework will need to deal with all of these issues of digitization and climate change because that is at the very very heart of anon2696444391 co working or incubation or acceleration is going to drive community or regional development in any way, shape or form, in a structured and sustainable and balanced way in the future. Immediately the biggest challenges are financial resources. 33% have tenants have gone out of business permanently. For the tenants that are left or new tenants, it is important that we have capability for people to work virtually, or meet or train or interact kind of virtually or online. So the big challenge for hubs for the entire sector at the minute is in terms of embracing potentially new technology or is open and stay alive, stay relevant, and make sure that they can support their tenants who can't afford to pay rent, or adapt what they're doing or are in the process of trying to do that and just need more time. Hubs need to carry that weight, even if they can't pay. The reason we conducted this national survey of the impact COVID has had on the national hub sector was to assess those major financial challenges that these hubs are experiencing and try and put a proposal to government to put some sort of a grand scheme or funding mechanism in place to support these hubs keeping the doors open reconfiguring their spaces, creating additional spaces to accommodate the new remote workers or co workers that may need to use the facilities in the future and helping existing companies and startups survive the next few months, so that they're still there in the future. Hubs certainly cannot carry that weight on their own. There will need to be government intervention of some sort. We're developing a new action plan that accelerates a lot of what's in that strategic plan, but adapts it and tailors it to fit the current environment. We've probably seen three years worth of movement in terms of digitizing hubs in the space of three months. If there is an appetite by governments and the larger corporates and the larger multinationals to try and make sure we stay on this road in some way, shape, or form, I think that will help hubs. The quality standards framework then becomes a mechanism for measuring and building and driving that kind of regional development piece into the future, which is going to benefit everybody and makes it easier for government to allocate resources and funding in different parts of the country or to different sectors. In the past, we've probably been more disconnected than connected. And I think COVID has helped connect an awful lot of us together much more. And technology can help.



*Meet Gary at our event on 21/7. Registration is free of charge. To get your ticket, just post a thoughtful comment [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/erin-westover-head-of-expansion-at-upflex-and-long-time-coworking-ambassador/14068) to help drive the thinking and learning forward and we will send you the access code. Did you sign up via eventbrite? We ask that you too contribute to the conversation here ahead of the event to ensure everyone is on the same page, better networking etc. [More info](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-to-support-recovery-of-the-coworking-sector-an-online-summit-bringing-together-key-industry-figures-and-wider-sector-participants/13987).*" 3,80711,2020-07-20T06:46:12.280Z,14033,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,80041,anon4218620973,anon4221853825,"@anon4221853825 You might also be interested to see some rural specific initiatives popping up in other Europe countries, like https://ruralmove.org/ in Portugal… worth checking out!" 4,80849,2020-07-21T13:42:02.149Z,14033,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,80711,anon4221853825,anon4218620973,Great idea .... 1,80048,2020-07-07T13:05:43.582Z,14037,0,15,14,10,0,0,83.0,80048,anon1768886684,anon1768886684," My name is Jonny Cosgrove, I am the Chief Executive of [meetingRoom.io](http://meetingroom.io/), an Irish company that makes virtual reality meeting room software, primarily to provide virtual space-as-a-service for large enterprises. I'm a Trinity MBA with a background in advanced marketing technology and I've spent the last few years working on technology that contributes to structural changes in the way we all work. We provide virtual meeting rooms - a digital office space that is consistent and available from anywhere. We bring body language to meetings, focused on highly collaborative and participative meetings. Teams are more engaged, build rapport and achieve more than using traditional tele-presence. People use it for specific types of meetings. for high-participative, highly collaborative meetings of approximately three to 20 people, rather than one-to-one or one-to-many. The idea for me is not to get everyone to wear these headsets all the time, but for people to be able to see one another when they need to. I know everyone's crazy for asynchronous communication right now, but for me this is the next stage. It cuts down on notifications which keeps people focused, until it’s time to sanon2696444391 up for a meeting, just like in real life. Pre-COVID we had interest from specific teams - now that we have began adjusting as a global society, we are seeing more and more types of organisations looking to improve their collaborative efforts. We're seeing a lot of different co-working spaces looking to get people back with their bums on seats, but it’s about getting people to look beyond and say, ""Look, what if I was here two days a week instead of three, what if I was here four days a week instead of the full five? How does that affect us?"" There is a huge amount of interest in what we do at the moment. but in terms of bringing it through we've been focused on working with large enterprises. We know who we want to work with and we know who we can help today, and tomorrow. Our solution fits in in particular ways, and we don't try and compete with tools like Teams or Zoom, because that's not the point. We act as complementary tech for small group collaboration. We're in addition to your existing tool set, in the same way video calls didn't get rid of email. When a meeting is one to one, or one person addressing a crowd, video works really well. Where we kick in is when the ""Brady Bunch"" grid doesn't work. We focus on those three to 20 person group meetings, where you want to know whose turn it is to speak, where you want to make sure that everybody's engaged. A problem cannot always be solved or fleshed out via a Teams orSlack thread, or with four or five on one call - that’s the difference between communication and collaboration. Our calls are very much a case of everyone's in, it's high energy and it's getting real problems solved. A lot of the tools that we are using these days are built for people to be on all the time, which turns into a notification battle station. That works to a certain point, but you get used to being driven by notification as opposed to driven by outcome. For us it's very much the latter rather than the former; the real collaboration as opposed to people sanon2696444391ing up the right way on video calls. The next stage of virtual collaboration is going to be VR first. Not just adding brand new tools to the stack, but changing behaviourally anon2696444391 people are operating, anon2696444391 they're working together. Our vision is to have over a billion people, or a billion task oriented rooms being used in our platform, and the idea is that there’s a different mindset to each space. For example, I’m here in the green room talking to you, and I might be going to a red “management” room afterwards, which could mean being prepared for a tougher conversation, then meeting a customer in the blue room, where I want to make sure I'm in closer mode. Context switching is something we focus on, to ensure everyone is sure what is on the agenda for a particular meeting. We learn by doing. Humans are social creatures, we get together to learn. When we're introducing people to a room, it's a tour, just as though I was sanon2696444391ing you guys where we work at Regus today. Every client who comes on board with us is enrolled in our academy, which starts with a bit of education, but then then we're going to dig into what might this mean to your business, saying look, what are your metrics, what does it actually mean to you. The industry is too young for people to be able to say, ""Hey, this is what we're doing, and this is what we're going to do for it, and here's the exact outcome we're going to get at the end."" After the last four months, we're just starting to get to that point where people actually are able to reflect and say, ""okay, we made it through here."" This period has meant an acceleration of what was already happening, and a lot of people have gotten two or three years worth of learning in three months. They are understanding that they can get away with working remotely and they want to be really specific about the competitive advantages they can bring out from that. Virtual meetings are a part of that. How the co-working space themselves might adopt this is really simple. It might be adding a few extra rooms in a digital sense to their existing booking system, offering it as extra services to their memberships. More and more corporates are starting to look at co-working spaces, not just in the capital cities but also in a rural sense of things. We can all agree that you'll never have one tool that fits everything for all teams, but it's still very much at the fledgling stage. This period has probably been the biggest output of our virtual and physical lives converging, and physical co-working spaces are best positioned to make their competitive advantage the fact that their offices are safest. We link in on top of that. There’s a lot of uncertainty around generally, but overall, I suppose the biggest challenge from a technology point of view is that most people haven't tried these headsets before. Normally, you'd have someone on site to sanon2696444391 them anon2696444391 to use it, to make sure it's a good first time experience, but that’s all changed. On demand that actually helps with that behaviour change we mentioned earlier on, is all the more important. The best way to get people to adopt or to react and educate to these things is, making sure that everyone has the same ability to participate. What we always ask, at every stage, is this a good solution? Is this a good fit for this kind of problem? It's got to make a difference to the bottom line, to the budget, in terms of the business drivers. It’s about removing subjectivity and making sure it's all objective. That's what we really focus on. We're a VR-first platform, but by design we're a cross-platform. We let people come in from every device as they would today. One of our own strong points is that we're not afraid to say no. We go through a discovery process with every large enterprise, that lasts anything up to 30 days. The reasoning for that is coming in with that mindset makes it a anon2488317424 bit easier not to be disappointed if it gets to that point, but for us it's always treating it as an objective. On the flip side, if we're not the right solution we get out of your ways as fast as possible and try to point you in the right direction. We have some really strong partnerships building up at the moment and while we're not publicly released at the moment, that's a burning question on a lot of people's brains right now. Our focus, though, is very much on the large enterprise end of things. We prefer to point people in their direction, as opposed to take it on ourselves, because we have a specific set of skills.



*Meet Jonny at our event on 21/7. Registration is free of charge. To get your ticket, just post a thoughtful comment [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/erin-westover-head-of-expansion-at-upflex-and-long-time-coworking-ambassador/14068) to help drive the thinking and learning forward and we will send you the access code. Did you sign up via eventbrite? We ask that you too contribute to the conversation here ahead of the event to ensure everyone is on the same page, better networking etc. [More info](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-to-support-recovery-of-the-coworking-sector-an-online-summit-bringing-together-key-industry-figures-and-wider-sector-participants/13987).*" 3,80712,2020-07-20T06:55:49.678Z,14037,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,80048,anon4218620973,anon1768886684,"@anon1768886684 really appreciate this: ""we learn by doing"" and we get together to learn. So true!" 4,80827,2020-07-21T12:28:43.649Z,14037,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,80048,anon1753543892,anon1768886684,"ping @anon3828707713, can you please change the ownership of this post to @anon1768886684, the one it is with now is wrong, this is not the Jonny Cosgrove in question." 5,80832,2020-07-21T12:38:45.952Z,14037,1,12,11,2,0,0,32.4,80048,anon1753543892,anon1768886684,ping @anon1768886684 6,80833,2020-07-21T12:39:56.182Z,14037,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,80827,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,done 7,80840,2020-07-21T13:06:41.919Z,14037,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,80832,anon1768886684,anon1753543892,"Thanks @anon1753543892, you've been stanon4205961763r!" 8,80841,2020-07-21T13:07:53.450Z,14037,0,11,10,1,0,0,37.2,80712,anon1768886684,anon4218620973,"Thanks @anon4218620973. In the true spirit of collaboration - it's all about getting in and getting your hands dirty by ""doing"" rather than ""deliberating"". Being open to making mistake alongs the way and building to win is the only way to play :slight_smile:" 1,59847,2019-09-25T07:38:03.521Z,10859,0,25,24,77,0,0,450.0,59847,anon294806887,anon294806887," The other day while in Berlin, @anon3379761435 and I met the lovely folks at a co-living and co-working space in Prenzlauer Berg: Kai Drweck, one of the co-founders, and to our surprise, @anon The group owns two buildings and since two years, they are offering private rooms for both short term and permanent rental to people who are not just looking for a living space, but are community oriented. In the space we saw, the rooms are on the upper floow, and a large kitchen and a public co-working space are downstairs. The kitchen is large and friendly, as one would imagine it best serves a growing community. Notice boards and value boards are all around, as one would imagine they support group organising. The co-working space is open to others from the neighborhood who are able to buy affordable membership. We liked that it acts as a front shop for the community - it opens to the street, and you can almost just walk in! It is also a mixed use space, working by day and enjoying other activities in afternoon and evenings - yoga classes, open days, or other events. This ensures a very nice mix between those living there and those wanting to hang out. What I liked the most is this focus on community first, in the midst of a growing market for co-housing this really can make the difference! No more residential hotels, thank you very much WeWork! Way to go Kai and team! If you're in Berlin next time, make sure to drop by. Learn more about Happy Pigeons from their site: https://www.happypigeons.com/" 2,59848,2019-09-25T07:39:16.124Z,10859,0,23,22,1,0,0,9.6,59847,anon294806887,anon294806887,"Thanks a lot to @anon Ping @anon2979480439 'cause you missed it." 3,59852,2019-09-25T08:35:55.855Z,10859,0,22,21,1,0,0,69.4,59847,anon3379761435,anon294806887,"Unfortunately, their path to a minimum viable product is hard to replicate: the building itself was already owned by Kai's family when they started. So, that was anon2373157426 the stroke of luck for them, but we have to find another way to procure our own building." 4,80717,2020-07-20T08:53:58.659Z,10859,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,59847,anon1753543892,anon294806887,Here is another anon2373157426 interesting example of co-living and co-working. 1,80100,2020-07-08T11:09:11.841Z,14041,1,26,25,3,0,0,85.2,80100,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"Hi! Many if not most of the people who will be participating in the event are new to one another. In order to have a fruitful discussion it would be good to know who will be in the ""room"" and maybe chat with one another a bit beforehand - so the event moderators can better adapt the contents to the individuals who will be participating. So this is me :point_down:t5: . I'm an engineer and designer. I am also one of the founders of Edgeryders and do a lot of the creative direction for our work.
![](https://ucarecdn.com/0882f48e-b98e-4132-9a8e-e4c2b6eff66b/-/preview/) That photo of my sister and I was taken in 1990 in front of our home in Kuwait City. A few weeks later we would be in a car racing through a desert as the world burned.
![](https://ucarecdn.com/e3c32bea-4160-4c96-8b95-1dea806bc06a/-/preview/)
In different world, Alberto's band, Modena City Ramblers, was working its way into rock history in his native Italy.
![](https://ucarecdn.com/189b313e-447c-4721-b77e-e650caa8bae1/-/preview/)
@anon
![](https://ucarecdn.com/3ae59ab1-406c-47bb-892d-5b451d4dd64d/-/preview/)
Soon after I dragged Alberto to a hacker unconference, we started working on a research project at the council of Europe where we met Noemi. The three of us were tasked with figuring out anon2696444391 governments could support youth coping with mass unemployment and widespread precarity. This was 2011 - the year of the anti acta protests, occupy, los indignados, arab spring +++. On an open online platform we built, hundreds of individuals shared experiences from trying to build lives in the aftermath of the worst financial meltdown in our lifetime. We needed a way to process all this information. So we developed a methodology and some software to help us see what all of these conversations were telling us.
![](https://ucarecdn.com/9e5f8278-1027-4d85-acf6-f5e7dff71026/-/preview/)
A pattern emerged from these conversations. What was needed to cope with chaotic environments was not to attain a specific status on the labour market. It was infrastructure on which we could build good lives while doing work that is meaningful to us. Living, emergent infrastructure that weaves together the relational, physical and organisational. It needed to be resilient to the shocks that would soon be upon us due to climate crisis, ecosystems collapse and a financial system gone rogue. So we prototyped what such an infrastructure could look like.
![](https://ucarecdn.com/ae67658a-e949-46f4-b15b-55463981cdb4/-/preview/) ![](https://ucarecdn.com/48a7b579-431f-457d-b763-83726013cf31/-/preview/) ![](https://ucarecdn.com/b1808e14-01fd-49cd-81dd-db6f5a3f933e/-/preview/)
We documented the experience extensively. What we learned is that the best plan for us is no plan. Rather our approach would be to weave together and grow a large and diverse enough collective of talented people. With whom to build and adapt what we need along the way. The original software for sensemaking is now part of a stack of digital tools for distributed co-creation, our own messaging apps, virtual coworking rooms etc. And people are using the infrastructure, tools and practices to build new projects and businesses.
![](https://ucarecdn.com/56176b27-1924-4dc7-8e2d-3b79f2f8aa0f/-/preview/)
Seen from here, the situation right now is not unlike it was during that fateful year when the world broke (open) for me. This state of immobility in which we find ourselves makes it even clearer: we are one another's best resource in this no man's land between what is no more and what is not yet. As I write this countless people are losing their jobs and businesses. Of course there is the shared baseline challenge of navigating a tough economic situation. And as a brown person in the west, the sense of precarity is even higher as ethno-nationalists and fascists question your value as a human, in some cases questioning you very right to exist. It’s ripping open a lot of anxieties. I left my own country after being chased down a metro by angry men in brown clothes and receive anonymous racist death threats from randos, affecting my ability to feel at ease in social settings. I have found my own coping mechanisms, building anon1577251828 has been a key source of support. What I hope to come out of the event is some insights into what others are doing and if there might be space for meaningful new collaborations moving forward. For me there is an additional dimension to this. Watching the news right now as an ethnic minority with roots in two countries currently experiencing extreme geopolitical turmoil is bringing up a lot of additional concerns. My own intuition is that people like us who run productive physical and online spaces could help many more people to navigate this and future storms. **How can infrastructures that different parts of the coworking/ remote working ecosystem provide support for groups that are especially at risk right now?** One of the ways in which i have been keeping myself sane is to focus on *the future of distributed work.* John O'Duinn and I had a long chat about this, he's been doing a lot of work on the topic for anon2373157426 some time. More specifically - upskilling critical mass of people to discover and adopt the way we work to build productive communities. One of those initiatives is a MOOC (it's not launched yet, we are finalising the touches on the communication materials, but you can see it in progress [here](https://crowdfund.anon1577251828.eu). I am curious, about your own experiences/ observations about the situation right now and what questions it is bringing up for you? Do consider introducing yourself in a comment! Looking forward to read you :)" 2,80148,2020-07-08T17:08:52.676Z,14041,1,20,19,1,1,0,44.0,80100,anon4218620973,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:1, topic:14041""] How can infrastructures that different parts of the coworking/ remote working ecosystem provide support for groups that are especially at risk right now? [/quote] Coworking facilities (in Zaragoza and Tarragona) have enabled me to keep working over these recent weeks. They have provided space, facilities and solace after many weeks of working in confinement. I have been working remotely since 2007 and used many coworking spaces. But I value them so much more for providing these safe spaces (masks, perspex panels, distance/spacer markers, tubs of gel) It has been a lifeline to my work, family and also my mental health i.e. being able to work outside of my small apartment. They have provided real support to me in these recent times. What do you think? @anon618418540 @anon3295439096 @anon1640400212 @anon4221853825 @anon" 3,80497,2020-07-15T09:23:08.847Z,14041,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,80148,anon3828707713,anon4218620973,"Hi Ranon1976898802a, it's interesting - for me the whole confinement/self isolation has been a positive experience as my own cognitive/mental wiring makes social interaction tiring. In the past I've found coworking spaces to be useful mainly for organising events but am unable to cope with open office landscapes. I prefer online based coworking, which in practice is what anon1577251828 offers me. Rather I was thinking about the business aspects, whether/ anon2696444391 coworking spaces can support income generation for their members during times of crisis...any experiences around this?" 4,80677,2020-07-17T16:41:04.103Z,14041,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,80497,anon4218620973,anon3828707713,"@anon4221853825 Gary might have a comment or two on this - especially as they engaged a IM platform in Ireland (mighty networks, I believe) amongst all the spaces in a response to COVID-19. He reported many connections and support emerging from the total community of members that emerged. @anon3295439096 or maybe you could comment on fostering connections in the time of crisis? Any specific examples in your community?" 1,80669,2020-07-17T14:41:46.863Z,14119,0,12,11,3,0,0,32.4,80669,anon2603543344,anon2603543344," Dear friends and family It’s been a busy week for us at Edgeryders this week as we prepare for our coworking event that’s taking place next week. Earlier in the year when we began to realise the impact that Covid-19 would have on our societies and economies we asked ourselves what we could do to help each other. As an organisation that works in a distributed way and has created our own online coworking space, we quickly asked ourselves anon2696444391 we could help with the recovery of the sector and began to curate an event. And so on Tuesday 21 July (16:00 to 18:30 CEST), we will be bringing together key industry figures and the wider sector participants for our summit event that will explore '[How to support Recovery of the Coworking Sector'.](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-to-support-recovery-of-the-coworking-sector-an-online-summit-bringing-together-key-industry-figures-and-wider-sector-participants/13987) With more and more organisations beginning to realise the merits of remote work during this pandemic, we really do see the importance of a stable coworking sector that can facilitate and support our future. We have curated an event that speaks to everyone; whether you own or manage a co-working facility, have a flexible workforce or you’re an employee or freelancer that works remotely or intends to in the future, [ we ask you to sign up here,](https://www.eventbrite.com/e/111403930154) if you haven’t already. ## What can you expect? It's an Edgeryders event so we will be asking some hard questions throughout the day. One of our speakers, Nacho Rodriguez, who is the founder of Coworking and Coliving Canary Islands [penned a piece for us](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/nacho-rodriguez-founder-coliving-canary-islands-nomadcity-conference/14066). He talked about anon2696444391 future technology such as 5G will enable these spaces to work effectively in rural areas and have a positive socio-economic impact on areas that previously didn’t attract industry and jobs. Speaking of new technology, Erin Westover works for Upflex, a company that is creating a new app that lets a user know where and when there is a coworking space available near them. “Instead of having an office building for 200 people in the middle of Manhattan, why not allow for people to work in Williamsburg and work in Brooklyn and not have to take the trains right into the city center. Right?” she asks [in a post on Edgeryders](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/erin-westover-head-of-expansion-at-upflex-and-long-time-coworking-ambassador/14068). You can expect more conversations like this on Tuesday - our event and platform will also give people in the space a chance to network through the platform and introduce yourself to our other speakers like [Gary O’Meara](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/covid-presents-opportunity-to-breathe-life-back-into-rural-communities/14054), [Mayur Sontakke](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/coworking-has-the-potential-to-be-a-great-equalizer/14053), [Jamie Orr](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-family-of-my-own/1405) and[ Faye Alund](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/burst-small-world-complacency-with-coworking/14058). If you want to join the summit just [sign up here](https://www.eventbrite.com/e/111403930154) and introduce yourself in the [event forum](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/coworking-recovery/364) or comment with your thoughts on one of the speaker’s articles. Have a good weekend, Edgeryders" 2,80670,2020-07-17T14:45:32.874Z,14119,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,80669,anon2603543344,anon2603543344,@anon726016595 1,80042,2020-07-07T12:28:53.916Z,14034,0,14,13,38,0,0,192.8,80042,anon4062356324,anon4062356324," *A summary of this post can be found here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/mayur-sontakke-founder-at-nomadgao-remote-coliving-startup-advisor/14053*
Hello, I’m Mayur Sontakke. I'm a financial analyst, I started working remotely back in 2014 for a American startup, and because I had the flexibility I spent three, four years traveling within India and Southeast Asia which gave me perspective on the coworking as a concept, because I probably visited 50 or 64 coworking spaces over the span of three, four years. I advised some coworking coliving companies on their expansion, on their strategy, and also the government of Goa on making Goa more popular among digital nomads. All of my experience came together, and I started a coworking coliving place in Goa last year called NomadGao. It's in a village not too far from the beach. I did a lot of research on what people are looking for, what sort of people travel and live in coliving places, or work from coworking spaces, apart from the the first-hand experience that I have had being the coworker myself. We are a small space. We have about 15 to 20 coworking seats, five or six rooms. It's fairly manageable without technology. Our focus has been more on human interaction, but once we ended up having double bookings from different platforms, then we said, ""Okay, technologically is a must,"" even though the scale is small. In fact, the small scale helped us in experimenting with technologies and see what works best. We use Cobot for the coworking space management, which makes it easy for our customers to sign up and to pay. For the coliving, we are listed on Airbnb. We also are on our own platform. We use general manager, Cloudbeds, which helps us make sure that double bookings won't happen. The rates and everything goes to different tenants smoothly. We use social media extensively because we are a new space. We are developing the digital nomad scene in Goa, we are actually promoting Goa, and then promoting that space. For the coworking space management, we've tried two or three different softwares. We could do that because most of our members are in house. We just need a software that takes care of messaging eight to ten people. When something goes wrong, it's much easier to talk to our customers and apologize, and make sure that we break the ice. When I talk about experimentation, I think it's more about making sure that our customers are okay with the new things we are trying. I think that would be much harder to do in bigger spaces. We were in lockdown for over two months, which gave us a lot of time for thinking about anon2696444391 we really want the systems to be. For example, we had separate systems for coworking, coliving, and accounting, so we did a lot of manual work fetching bookings from the booking platform, putting them in that concrete system, or fetching bookings from Cobot and putting them in that concrete system. Now we use Zapier to integrate all these products. In COVID, we are focusing more on automating because I feel that humans need not spend their time in things that can be automated easily. People who are working with me and my team should be focusing more on building the community, or focusing on making sure that everybody here is happy, or should focus on connecting people with each other to drive synergies or collaborations. In terms of community, I think people are spending longer time here because either they're locked down or didn't want to be in big cities in India, so they came over to Goa and they're working from our space. The biggest change is the demographics. Earlier we had 80% expats, or foreigners, or non-Indian digital nomads. But now that borders are closed and flights are not operating, we have seen that demographic change. A lot of Indian companies going remote, lot of Indian companies opting to give work to freelancers, we'll see a lot of Indians coming here. Cobot takes care of our accounting and allows us to have a public community directory so that people can talk to each other, and then meet. For example, if a new member comes in who needs a designer, and if we have had a designer in the past, it's much easier to connect directly through Cobot member directory. It also gives us some insights about member demographics to focus our marketing efforts, or to focus on overall strategy. It also allows access control, but we haven't done that so far because, again, it's a matter of scale. I'm anon2373157426 excited about the future. A lot of Indian companies are approaching us. So far we were focused solely on digital nomads, but now we are getting a lot of artists who want a break from big cities who stay with us. The enterprise part is going to grow because companies will need places for offline retreats, or they will need offices in exotic destinations. I feel that government should be more in this, because policies matter. For example, when you focus on digital nomads, the visa situation is a gray area where there is no visa for digital nomads. Now Esanon2863106368ia is doing it, or Thailand is doing smart visa, but unless government gets involved, there won't be a legitimacy to digital nomads. The government also needs to focus on building the ecosystem. Not just spaces, but then encouraging internet service providers to invest and have better networks at such places, or creating some basic facilities. For example, I consulted Goa government on attracting digital nomads back in 2018. Goa is a great place. We are most welcome to come over here, but, it lacks certain basic things. I think government can help in getting all that basic ecosystem in place. Some of the Indian governments are acting on this. There is a local government in the state of Kerala that is asking people to convince their employers to give them remote work, and then setting up coworking infrastructure so that people can actually work from places in the state. The government of India has also launched its own work from home program where people will have to work from home for at least 15 days in a year. Some of the public sector organizations are launching their own work from home programs. I think over time we'll see government getting more active into this space, building own coworking spaces for their own employees, or employees of other public sector companies. The biggest challenge is using this form of remote work to have a distributed world, a more equal world. We have this very beautiful tool for remote work to make it happen.nIf coworking spaces sprout in tier two, tier three cities or rural areas of India, it would be a great equalizer. I read a interesting piece about a company, a unicorn company, in India, whose founder works from a village. They're building offices, small offices in different villages, so that people who belong to nearby villages can work on there so they don't have to commute or move to a bigger city. I think technology can play a great role in this. It all starts with having the basic internet infrastructure for all. If it is spread out well, if all the areas, the rural or urban, get the same internet connectivity, it's much easier to make the reverse shift happen. We are also working on a social program.The idea is to have volunteers who have remote jobs or remote work who go to villages, spend three months, six months there, spend a couple of hours a day in educating the rural population on using technology. Then also learning sustainable ways of living or farming, to bridge this urban-rural gap. I feel, yeah, the next big challenge is to bridge the gap, and maybe there's, then, equality. Program Panchayat is the first initiative right now. We run skill share programs. We try to integrate the local community into what we are doing. We plan to continue that in different places over the next couple of years. Most of our members come for a month, they end up being here for three months because they love the space and they love this family. In terms of skill share, actually our community members actively share what they know, share their own skills. We record them, put them on YouTube. We sometimes invite locals to come over for the skill shares. In terms of integration between coworking, coliving, skill share and everything else that we are doing, I think that we are anon2373157426 integrated. Our community does all of this. Now we are adding community manager, hopefully in the next month or two, so that we can focus on the social mosaic, or to really take this model and expand. We don't use technology in onboarding, because I feel that what sets us apart is the family feel, the warmth. We walk around, sanon2696444391 them around, and give them some tips. Eventually maybe we'll have to automate some of it through technology, but right now it's just manual. The best thing that could happen is we build something to make India popular for digital nomads. I've been working towards it for the last four years. I feel the stage is set to make that happen, we just need to be consistent. So far coworking in India was just the urban coworking, find which coworking spaces in big cities, but I think that model is going to change now. With population getting this to move there, with a lot of people going at remote work. Coworking would not be just about real estate. It's not a real estate business anymore, because with social distancing and all, all of the economics of coworking have changed. You'll probably have to bring in less the number of people in the space that you ... At least for some amount considering moving by a number of people. I think now it's time to focus on building the human connection rather than building the space. We are trying to do that here.



*Meet Mayur at our event on 21/7. Registration is free of charge. To get your ticket, just post a thoughtful comment [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/erin-westover-head-of-expansion-at-upflex-and-long-time-coworking-ambassador/14068) to help drive the thinking and learning forward and we will send you the access code. Did you sign up via eventbrite? We ask that you too contribute to the conversation here ahead of the event to ensure everyone is on the same page, better networking etc. [More info](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-to-support-recovery-of-the-coworking-sector-an-online-summit-bringing-together-key-industry-figures-and-wider-sector-participants/13987).*" 3,80446,2020-07-14T11:08:42.987Z,14034,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,80042,anon1753543892,anon4062356324,"" 4,80490,2020-07-15T03:57:50.819Z,14034,0,8,7,1,0,0,36.6,80042,anon4062356324,anon4062356324, 5,80554,2020-07-15T13:33:16.657Z,14034,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,80042,anon1753543892,anon4062356324,"ping @anon3828707713 could you change the ownership here? Mayur consented (post below, made invisible with the method sanon2696444391n by Matthias)" 1,80293,2020-07-13T08:05:29.967Z,14068,0,18,17,31,0,0,158.6,80293,anon3205029342,anon3205029342," *A summary of this in depth post can be found here:* *https://anon1577251828.eu/t/erin-westover-head-of-expansion-at-upflex-and-long-time-coworking-ambassador/14049*
My name is Erin, and I work with Upflex. We're a New York based company. However, I'm based in Berlin. Of course, at the moment we are 100% remote. But we love to promote flexible work styles. That includes coworking. We're huge advocates for coworking spaces and of course remote work and any kind of work that encompasses allowing people to work from where they need to or which makes them more productive and provides professional environments. What I do specifically for Upflex is that I partner with spaces all over the world. So we have more than 4,000 space partners and more than 8,000 spaces on our platform that we partner with for people that need hot desks or private offices or meeting rooms. What we do is we actually package that and promote it to companies that are looking to implement more of a flexible work environment within their companies, especially during the last couple of years. People have been coming away from the headquartered model of having actual locations where they send their employees to. We're creating a new product that allows them to let people work from where they need to and create meeting areas rather than a place that you have to be located every day, 9:00 to 5:00, as well as commuting to. We work with established companies and enterprise companies, large teams that are essentially remote and distributed. They may have locations all over the world, and they have headquarters in many cities. Instead of having an office building for 200 people in the middle of Manhattan, why not allow for people to work in Williamsburg and work in Brooklyn and not have to take the trains right into the city center. Right? So creating an option that, or of course, if you want to hire remotely, but still give someone the option to work from a professional environment that suits their job role or suits their working style. Typically platforms like us, there are other ones out there, anon2696444391ever, are more geared toward freelancers or individuals looking for spaces or kind of building their company. Part of the appeal of coworking spaces for them is that they can go and have a one month contract and then cancel it at any time so they not buying real estate for 10 years. But coworking companies suffered a lot from that. There are a lot of spaces, unfortunately, that won't make it through COVID because of the month-to-month contracts and the way things went in that regard, or they were just starting out or even some of the bigger players, they didn't have a lot of money in the bank. They might've been also going month to month because they were doing fundraising or VC, things like that. So it is possible that some of the bigger players that we're used to seeing might be acquired by someone else. That is probably going to be the future. However, as much as they were hit hard and we lost a lot of spaces, and we'll continue to lose spaces over the year, coworking is going to come back stronger than ever. It's going to be needed more than ever. That is because of the transition of companies coming away from the headquartered model, wanting a more flexible lease and also this huge realization that, ""Yes, we can work remotely. I don't need to have my team all in one space, five days a week, eight hours a day."" Cworking spaces will be inundated with clients, and of course, adjusting to these flexible models and kind of changing even their space and what the requirements are. So for example, I love hot desking. I like walking into a space and just popping my computer open and feeling whatever perspective I want to have that day, instead of having my own dedicated, desperate work every day. That's not really anon2696444391 I operate. However, a lot of these spaces are going to be taking that element away for a while because the open concept is not so safe. It's not really something that I think people want to be doing. Even companies that had open space offices within a coworking space, so maybe for 20 of their people, they're going to start creating boundaries between the people that are working there. So whether it be screams or if they spread people out a anon2488317424 bit more. This means that the design of the spaces will change. Then of course, the influx of customers is going to change. It's going to take some time, probably like fall to later in the year. But people will want to return to work. They don't want to work from home. But they also know that they don't want to commute to the office five days a week again. Technology plays a really big role in anon2696444391 coworking spaces are trying to develop the best experience possible, the most seamless experience possible. Of course, it is the future. I think people are really drawn to that aspect of things, and when we're trying to develop a new work style, that's always of interest to us using technology, whether it be for data or information and as well as making the process a lot more simplified. With regards to technology and anon2696444391 that interacts, there's a lot of ways that coworking spaces are using technology in order to mitigate certain issues or just make the experience a lot more simplified. So we're of course looking to do integrations in the future, but there are inventory controls where they can put those online and have providers like us be able to tap into their inventory of what's available in their space, whether it be meeting rooms, private offices or hot desking. There is also accessibility options. Using keyless entry, you can do that through the app, and that can be integrated with their own systems that are in their buildings. So people can walk in and have a touchless system, and they know that that person has entered the building through those integrations. Essentially we provide a platform for communications to happen. We are definitely, first and foremost, a technology platform. We don't have a product other than that. Our inventory doesn't belong to us. So it's all independent operators or business centers. They own their own real estate. Our solution is an application that allows for companies to white label the app. Let's use Coca-Cola, for example. They're not a client of ours, but let's hope one day they might be. But we could brand the app to have Coca-Cola logos. So when the employee is logging in, they're going to see that it's a company app rather than they're just using the third-party Upflex. So it's integrated with their culture. That's the idea. Then this app communicates with all of our spaces. It notifies them when people are coming and allows them to control their inventory online. So it's definitely like, I guess, a workspace that is put online until you actually physically go and check into the location. Our product was anon2488317424 bit early in the remote working industry, we had been really pushing our ideals, and we see that this is going to be the future. So when people were coming in, and we're speaking to companies, they didn't see that this would be an option for them. Then all of a sudden COVID hits, and then we got launched right onto the front lines of people realizing they don't want to have a 10-year lease anymore with our company, that it is way too expensive. So it was a lot of preaching that goes on and teaching people and helping them understand, yeah, this is a great option for your company and even talking to the spaces and seeing if this is something that would be valuable to them. Not only that these companies are experiencing remote work for the first time, in some cases because all of their teams were just sent home to work, and they're trying to navigate anon2696444391 Zoom works and anon2696444391 they can still run their companies without being in each other's space. Right? All of that happened, which immediately created inquiries for us and anon2696444391 companies are planning for the future. Both on the space side and the client side, we've really had a huge influx of people inquiring about our company and fully understanding and embracing what it is that we were trying to bring to the market. So that's a really huge deal. So our projections, the statistics we had, all of the information that we had and as a group in the remote work industry, I think we're projecting this to be more realistic for next year. I don't think that we were really anticipating this quickly, all these companies going, ""Hey, wait a minute. Yeah, this works."" That was the first thing for our product, which of course is a really good thing for us. It's too bad that it had to be such a horrible incident for people to realize this. Then internally, we preach remote work, but I'm going to be honest that our company's still required a lot of attendance. So the New York office, they have a small team there and our CEO, Christophe really liked people coming into the office because he's that kind of person that's really social. He likes to brainstorm and be there in person. I've been remote the entire time that I've worked for Upflex. But all of our team was forced to go remote and start testing what it is that we do and testing our model. I must say it's been a really big surprise to Christophe as well that we all really came together, we made it work, and we were all way more productive. So as much as they don't want to admit it, it really, really changed things. I also was way more pulled into the team, more included in the team because all of us were online and there and present instead of our weekly meeting or catch-up. So that was a really great learning experience for us, and I know that that's something we're going to carry forward now, and Christophe has converted into, ""Yeah. However you guys want to work, let's actually practice what we've preached."" Then from there, we created a really amazing product out of this. So of course, you have to be working on your toes. How are we going to be in the post COVID-19 world? How is that going to look and function? It ended up that we created a program called Safe Spaces, and we created a seal in partnership with Colliers International, which is a major real estate brokerage company. They saw the benefit of our product. What we decided, or what we realized is that people are going to have a hard time returning to the workplace because of, is it safe? Should I be leaving my home? If I'm going to be in a space with other people, is this okay? Then a lot of people that were working from home that actually don't enjoy that or they have kids or there's all these different things that don't allow for their space to allow for a professional environment. We developed a bridge program where you can now filter for spaces that are adhering to local regulations. For example, in the United States, it's CDC and obviously The WHO, and then of course, whatever they want to implement themselves. A lot of spaces are even putting temperature regulators or a way that you can walk past, and they can determine if somebody has a temperature. That's not a requirement by any means, but some spaces went above and beyond. We've also become kind of a beacon for people and spaces to say or to understand what it is that they can do in order to get ready to have people return to work. For us this has meant there's been a lot of educating and communicating: "" this is what's happening with our partners in China. This is what's worked for them. Let's bring that model over to Europe, and then of course, extend that to the United States."" So a lot of communication and just really focusing on getting that bridge to bring people back to the workplace. With regards to technology what I recommend for coworking clients, the most important thing would probably be to partner with companies like ourselves, like Upflex or people that are able to, whether it's bring extra people in and fill your space in a time where a lot of people aren't going there or a time where coworking has really suffered. Using technology platforms like ourselves and companies that are advocating coworking spaces and also doing a lot of blogging and a lot of communication and things like what we're doing right now and educating that way, that's a really great way to get your space recognized, and people who might not know that you exist, it's a great way to advertise yourself. Even if you don't necessarily get customers directly through that platform, it's a way to get your name out there. I think that's really important. The safety component is really important for people, and everybody wants to know, ""Okay, what's going to happen. What is it going to look like when I return? Because I don't want to be sitting across from somebody that I don't know. I do want to be safe because then I have to go home to my family. But on the other hand, I really need to get back out of my house or get back into the workplace."" So there's lots of technology that can help you with that. It can be anon2373157426 expensive. So you need to pick and choose during this time of what's most important. But I do think the keyless entry is going to be a huge thing for people. Touchless. Everyone's talking about touch surfaces, and this is the big trend right now. You don't want to touch anything on necessarily in a public space. So having access, purchasing through your phone, having everything, all of your merchandise or anything that you want to purchase, whether it be a meeting room within this space, all of that can be managed through apps and through technology that is specifically geared toward coworking spaces and helping that be functional. Then any of those technologies that existed before COVID have been adapting to COVID and making sure that it's functioning for the needs of what's to come and the restructuring. Reflecting on experiences from the intense user testing we've done the last few months about what I think are really important features for a remote team to work together well... Recording the information, storing it where it's accessible and having a map so that people can access all that information, that's the best way to handle it so that I can go and grab a document. I don't have to ask my colleague where it is and communicating that all the time. Our CPO, Ganon2945747231r Dhaliwal, is always making us write everything down. In every meeting, we're typing it out. Over-communication - which I get really bothered by if someone asks me many, many times, something that I felt that I have already been very clear about. I've had to reflect on myself and understand that's a really important thing to be doing is that communicate everything all the time. You're not there in person. Then when you go away to have your day, and you're not there to remind people what's going on, it's really important to continuously repeat information. Of course, meetings. The amount of productivity and work you can get done if you limit your meeting time. I don't love having a million meetings all the time because it is very disruptive. I feel like when teams are remote, they do it in almost as a way to sanon2696444391, ""Hey, I'm here, and I'm working. I'm online. The anon2488317424 light is on, on my Slack that sanon2696444391s I'm live."" I don't really subscribe to that. I'm really like, ""Let's have meetings if we need them."" Because the flow of my day it gets disrupted. That's a huge thing that happens in the office space, right? Of course, keep them for strategy or if you're building something together or have, of course, your team meetings. But jumping on a million calls a day with your colleagues just because they're not in the office beside you to talk and respecting that time I felt has really worked. But this is stuff we've talked about. Right? So I've had to be really vocal like, ""Hey, this doesn't need to be a meeting. Send me an email."" Stuff like that. That's been working for us. But with regards to technology, there's just not so much that you need. It all depends on what you're doing. Zoom has been amazing. We like Zoom. It works for us, and of course, just having the cloud, everything mapped out and accessible so that you can find all the information and documents you need in order to do your job effectively. Somewhere in between is what the future is going to be. Then of course, making sure that the spaces can accommodate a certain amount of people, which again, may change the affordability of things because if you're not using every anon2488317424 square foot that you have or square meter that you have, creating more spacing, that can create a different pricing model. So I'm interested to see anon2696444391 that will also be affected. Rural coworking, I think they're going to suffer the most, unfortunately. If they were able to get government help, that's great if they could stay open. But I think if they can hold on, there's going to be a huge driver there, and that's something that I've been advocating for, and I always try to partner with spaces in rural areas because those are the places where people want to live and work from. They don't need to be in the city center to do their job effectively. So I do believe more of those spaces will start popping up. Hopefully, some are able to make it through this time, financially they will be. But they know that they have to be on board with these health and safety regulations in order to make the space feel safe for others. I've been communicating with spaces all over, some that are in smaller towns or that are wanting to open during this time because the demand is starting to increase. But it's always going to be regional. It's always going to be based on the regulations, anon2696444391 far along they are and the reopening process after lockdown. But I do think that some of these methods and precautions are here to stay. The spacing issue, I think, is really going to be a thing because people didn't like that to begin with. You don't want someone in your direct vicinity. So that's going to be something that will be taken into the future. With respect to membership models, a lot of spaces immediately took away their day use. So you can't just be a random person walking in off the street anymore, booking a day pass at a coworking space. Of course, it's because they wanted to cater to their own membership. If they're already only allowed to occupy maybe 60% of their space or 50% of their space, they have to first and foremost address their members that stayed with them during that time, making them feel safe, making sure they can return. So any flexibility memberships went out the window, to begin with because they just can't allow for strangers to come in, or they just can't occupy the space because they're operating at a percentage of their capacity. I love independent spaces. These are the ones that have character and really interesting communities. So I think they're really important to include. We have many on our platform. If you are to use your inventory, so you need to also consider what you have and what's empty and anon2696444391 you want to leverage it. So again, we allow for you to put one hot desk on our platform if you want, or you can have 10 meeting rooms and 50 private offices and 60 spaces for hot desking, depending on your capacity. So it's up to you to control it as the owner or the manager at the space. So you can go on and take it away and add it as you need to as much as you want. During these months, a lot of them did restructure their pricing model, or they removed a whole aspect of their membership, and then they were going into long term. Some people econstructed their offices completely and took away all the open areas and made them enclosed and maximized that. For example, we reevaluated our membership pricing. We are a membership-based platform up at Upflex. We realized where the demand is coming in. We knew that people are scared to be in open spaces with strangers or even with their colleagues. So we created a product, which is private offices for durations. So flexible private offices, whether it be by the day so that a team can go into an enclosed area and work together and do some strategy if they need to be together in person. Or you can do that by the week or by the month, depending on anon2696444391 long. Then of course, if those people are done after a certain project, they can go back to their respective environments and wherever they were working for or from previously. We've changed our product to accommodate that and accommodate what clients are actually asking for. Then of course, we're taking that to our spaces and letting them know, ""Hey, this is what everyone's asking for, You might want to consider reflecting the demand”. I've noticed that a lot of people are going to that. I do see that the flexibility model is not going to go away completely. I think the day passes will not be so popular for a anon2488317424 while. But the flexibility is going to come into play, and then the memberships will have to reflect that. Coworking spaces need to be considering short term and not always committing to, ""Oh, I need somebody in here for a month."" What if there is a team of four people that just need a space for two days? Would you rather it sit empty, or would you rather people be in there? So finding ways to do that and fill the space during times may be taking a anon2488317424 less money than you'd normally would. It's better to utilize and leverage that inventory, especially during this time when it's uncertain and people are just wanting to dip their toe in the water. So that's a really great way to do it. Put the inventory online. The requests come in 24 hours in advance. So if you just happen to fill them, we just can communicate that to our client and say, ""Actually, the space is unavailable."" When we talk about technology...Keyless/ touchless entry. Maybe you don't want to interact with a person and have a receptionist lead you around and speak to you or have someone that has to be there, touchless entry is a great way to overcome that and also to allow for 24-hour access when maybe you don't want to be there, and you just want to allow your members to come in and work late. there are several touchless entry tech providers out there but I'm a really big fan of KISI. I know the founders there. They're great guys, and they've built a great product. We aren't integrated with them yet. But they have their own separate app and keyless entry, or you can have card entry. They are a German company I believe, but they are based out of New York. Every space that I know in New York City uses Kisi, and it's super convenient, and it's also a great way for the space to know who's in their building as well. Right? So for safety, for security it's really great. When we talk about technology we can also just talk about internet and communication and getting the word out. I think if that is the best way to mitigate these issues or to stay in business, for example, and again, partnerships, making sure that everyone knows who you are, that you're talking to people, that you're talking to the right people. If you want to talk about rural coworking or even just intercity coworking, get involved in your community as much as possible and find ways to make sure people know who you are and know that you exist, know that you have inventory like that, and also know that there is a solution to working from home. Lots of communication, lots online. A good example, I guess, would be Knotel there are anon2373157426 a major company out of New York City, and they're in many locations. They were shut down when New York was shut down, and they weren't able to operate. What they did was they used their space and provided it to essential workers for a place to rest or some nurses and doctors, if they just need a place to lay down or somewhere to go to be alone or whatever it is, maybe to just eat and decompress without having to leave the city if they needed to be in proximity to the hospital or where they were working, or even if they couldn't go home, for example, because they might infect their family during this time. They used their space during a really hard time, and that got them a lot of publicity. I'm not saying, ""Oh, they just did it to get the publicity."" But it was really valuable to their branding and to their company and what they represent and when they stepped up during a really hard time and offered their spaces at no cost to people that really needed it. So things like that. Again, like I said, getting involved in your community and ensuring that communication is there and providing education like this to people that are looking to maybe get into the coworking space. But all of that can be done online. I think that's the best way to go. But otherwise, coworking is an in-person experience. So technology plays a certain role in it. But I would say that just use the internet and use your networks and get to know people. Another example would be the UK. I know they were having a lot of trouble actually getting financial support as coworking space operators, which is really troubling. They were signing petitions and trying to get the government to actually recognize and provide them with these bailouts that a lot of other people were entitled to in getting, whether it be unemployment, et cetera, and they someanon2696444391 fell into this no man's land, and they weren't eligible for this type of compensation. As a space you need to be motivated to go out and ask for that type of help and spread the word. There were a lot of petitions that were signed. I think it was eventually overturned, and they were able to get some financial assistance. But understanding anon2696444391 valuable spaces within a community and what they actually bring to the community, if that was recognized by the government, and now that it is recognized by the government, they understand the value, right? That's a great way to stay in business during this time when you're having financial hardship or you don't know where you're going to be in the next six months. We are advocates within our company, and we do partner with a lot of education platforms. We aren't an education platform. It just so happens that continuously, we are educating people through our product and by giving the option and making it available. So partnerships with these education platforms, which there are many out there, we do promote them on our site. We promote them to companies that are considering using our product. So having a nice network is really great to offer those things where you might have a weakness. However, we do provide a lot of recommendations as to anon2696444391 you can structure your team. So, there might be a team that needs an office of 20 people, and that's okay. That's okay if you want to go and have that routine. Some people need it. Some people like it. But there might be five people on your team that don't, and they want to work from home, and then there might be another five that really enjoy working from coworking spaces or one that's a anon2488317424 closer to their home. So our platform allows you to manage that or develop a system so that everybody can work the way that they need. That's what we're really trying to do to make it as flexible as possible to have the most diverse team and the most functional aspect of flexibility that you can. But again, the education component needs to be left to the professionals, and there's so many out there. There's so many great resources, even ROE remote. That's a great way to learn anon2696444391 you can do that and implement it. It's going to forever be ongoing education, right? Because I think the industry is pretty new, and technology keeps developing, so staying on your toes and really knowing what you can provide to your clients and making sure that they're getting the best resources available to them to make sure that this works and everyone's happy.



*This conversation is part of our event on 21/7. Registration is free of charge. To get your ticket, just post a thoughtful comment here to help drive the thinking and learning forward and we will send you the access code. Did you sign up via eventbrite? We ask that you too contribute to the conversation here ahead of the event to ensure everyone is on the same page, better networking etc. [More info](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-to-support-recovery-of-the-coworking-sector-an-online-summit-bringing-together-key-industry-figures-and-wider-sector-participants/13987).*" 2,80294,2020-07-13T08:05:50.498Z,14068,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,80293,anon3828707713,anon3205029342,@anon1753543892 3,80295,2020-07-13T08:15:06.142Z,14068,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,80294,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,what do you mean with this? Should we rather push this than the short form? 4,80296,2020-07-13T08:17:26.174Z,14068,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,80295,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"yes, these longer articles are what hopefully will engage the conversations" 5,80297,2020-07-13T08:18:07.779Z,14068,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,80296,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,but we do need the questions to get the conversations going - can you add a comment with a question here like what I did for Nacho? 6,80299,2020-07-13T08:21:11.916Z,14068,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,80297,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"ok, will do" 7,80308,2020-07-13T08:52:04.845Z,14068,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,80293,anon1753543892,anon3205029342,"Hello Erin, Thank you for joining this conversation! I am looking forward to meeting you again during the event. Your perspective on the coworking scene is extremely interesting. Through you partnership with 4000 spaces partners and even more on your platform you can see patterns and developments on a large scale. And now your whole team is able to connect that with their own direct experiences of distributed work and the impact of the current situation on their lives. ### The secound on the UN principles for sustainable City planning is: > 2. MIXED LAND USE AND LIMITED LAND-USE SPECIALIZATION > Mixed-use development is aimed at developing a range of compatible land uses and functions > and provides a cross section of residential, commercial and community infrastructure in a building, > block or neighbourhood while reducing the demand for commuter travel by reducing the distances > between the vertices of the so-called ‘home-work-services’ triangle, and facilitating agglomeration > economies. Translated in guidelines, it proposes that at least 40% of total floor space should be > allocated for economic use both on the city and neighborhood level plans and designs. It also > recommends to minimize single function blocks to not more than 10% of total land use. ### In our interview you stated: > ""So it is possible that some of the bigger players that we’re used to seeing might be acquired by someone else. That is probably going to be the future. However, as much as they were hit hard and we lost a lot of spaces, and we’ll continue to lose spaces over the year, coworking is going to come back stronger than ever. It’s going to be needed more than ever. That is because of the transition of companies coming away from the headquartered model, wanting a more flexible lease and also this huge realization that, “Yes, we can work remotely. I don’t need to have my team all in one space, five days a week, eight hours a day.”"" ### and in view of technology you stressed the influence and importance of technology providers: > ""With regards to technology and anon2696444391 that interacts, there’s a lot of ways that coworking spaces are using technology in order to mitigate certain issues or just make the experience a lot more simplified. So we’re of course looking to do integrations in the future, but there are inventory controls where they can put those online and have providers like us be able to tap into their inventory of what’s available in their space, whether it be meeting rooms, private offices or hot desking. There is also accessibility options. Using keyless entry, you can do that through the app, and that can be integrated with their own systems that are in their buildings. So people can walk in and have a touchless system, and they know that that person has entered the building through those integrations."" ### And you also remarked on the new experiences of companies during covid: > ""Not only that these companies are experiencing remote work for the first time, in some cases because all of their teams were just sent home to work, and they’re trying to navigate anon2696444391 Zoom works and anon2696444391 they can still run their companies without being in each other’s space. Right? All of that happened, which immediately created inquiries for us and anon2696444391 companies are planning for the future."" Therefore I have two questions for you: ## 1. *Do you think remote working technology development and developers should be more involved in city planning efforts, e.g. when governments or municipalities plan the future?* ## 2. *Can you already see some changes in anon2696444391 companies/private businesses (among your clients) start to change their plans of the future, like going for hubs instead of headquarters or hiring in different areas?""*" 8,80311,2020-07-13T09:09:25.434Z,14068,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,80293,anon1753543892,anon3205029342," @anon3828707713 I think it might be nice to have the summaries linked in the longform articles like I did here about for example. Are you ok if I would do that for all of the texts? (look at the top of the first post)" 9,80346,2020-07-13T11:23:03.160Z,14068,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,80311,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,it just looks like the information is present twice? 10,80347,2020-07-13T11:35:41.853Z,14068,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,80346,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"I will remove it. Just think for many it will be hard to engage with these super long-form articles and thought this could be a compromise. But I know, we just want those who are prepared to commit to that emersion so let's focus on pushing that. Providing too many options is also overwhelming people." 11,80349,2020-07-13T11:48:49.516Z,14068,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,80347,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,well we can also ask laura to shorten them down further. But - we find that longer form articles might actually be better for engaging real conversation that will provide valuable insights for everyone. 12,80408,2020-07-13T17:58:08.052Z,14068,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,80293,anon1753543892,anon3205029342,"ping @anon3205029342, are you ok with this transcript? And do you have a question you would like to add to the conversation of the event? Here is the summary our copywriter made: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/recover-from-covid-with-flexibility/14049 Can you comment on that if you are find with it as well?" 13,80410,2020-07-13T18:06:43.169Z,14068,1,8,7,1,0,0,41.6,80308,anon3205029342,anon1753543892,"Hi Maria! Thank you for you questions. 1. I would love if governments and municipalities would consult with tech companies and developers in all aspects of city planning. I think some cities have seen the benefit of doing this, anon2696444391ever most do not consider anon2696444391 technology can create a better user experience while streamlining the processes internally. Even something as simple as a government website can be extremely difficult for the average person to navigate, and this is usually due to the overwhelming amount of work it would take, as well as the disruption to daily processes in order to modernize outdated systems. This is something that needs to be implemented from the top down with training systems in place that allow for new technologies to be fully understood by gov/munic. employees, because when they buy in for everyone to agree on a way forward. But my answer is a resounding YES! 2. Absolutely. We have even gone as far as restructuring our product to fit the current demand of our users, because things are changing right now on a day-to-day basis. People know they do not need to commute to a headquarters to be able to do it effectively, and the big hurdle we are overcoming right now is that employers are seeing that headquarters aren't necessary. Now that they have the proof that business can continue remotely, they are of course re-approaching physical office locations vs. remote work locations (including hubs). With regards to hiring many companies currently are in a hiring freeze or are in the process of down-sizing their employee base, so that remains to be seen." 14,80411,2020-07-13T18:09:23.954Z,14068,0,9,8,1,0,0,51.8,80408,anon3205029342,anon1753543892,This is great! And in case any spaces are interested in demonstrating their health and safety practices they can click here: https://upflex.com/safe-spaces-partner/ 15,80412,2020-07-13T18:21:35.578Z,14068,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,80293,anon1753543892,anon3205029342,Ping @anon3828707713 this post can move to the forum as well :) 16,80479,2020-07-14T16:14:33.562Z,14068,0,10,9,1,0,0,37.0,80410,anon3203746736,anon3205029342,"I think another aspect of why some government (and other large institutional sites) sites are so difficult for many people to efficiently use is due to a lack of standards around anon2696444391 information and navigation gets presented. In my experience, institutions take bids from web development companies and make their choice based on their own set of priorities and budget plus, frankly, anon2696444391 good a bidding company is at convincing the institution to go with their plan. Often people who make large budget decisions are not heavy users of their own sites and have no real training or experience in UX design. Thus they can be sold more on sizzle than steak so to speak. If it looks good then it must work well...we here know that is not true. But many decision makers seemingly do not. And yes, no doubt connecting a new site up to an old database is often a frustrating journey that ends in partial or even total failure. But so many times I have tried to navigate a large institutional site not having a good sense of the overall design scheme. And some of it is just a matter of what butanon2863106368s get put where and what is on a drop down menu. Or anon2696444391 you pay for something, or anon2696444391 effectively or comprehensively the search works. So I agree with you that it beneficial for governments and municipalities to consult with tech companies. I think the earlier the better in a planning process, and outside of a specific contract bidding process. That way maybe better basic UX principles can get baked into their public face rather than the fairly random process that has dominated for many years." 1,79669,2020-06-29T08:14:24.589Z,13985,0,38,37,46,0,0,237.6,79669,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"We want to understand anon2696444391 you and others are trying to contribute towards building the evolution of coworking and remote work. And anon2696444391 Internet and our digital technologies can support your work- so that they support efforts to build a better future against a backdrop of massive social, economic, ecological and political challenges. What is a burning question that drives your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?   By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development: 1. Create an Edgeryders account by [signing up here](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/)! 2. Click on the **+ New Topic** [butanon2863106368 here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/coworking-recovery/364) to open a new rich text editor. 3. Write your story and click on the **+ Create Topic** butanon2863106368 to submit it.


![ngi-logo|150x61](upload://h5G9NDqwTyD3pHUOhnALhIe2tUh.png) ![eu-emblem|150x100](upload://w9Qqp1LwCvu8cH2qEexVbOSeyio.png) *This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021.* *You can learn more about the initiative and anon1577251828 role in it at https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu*" 1,80160,2020-07-09T06:31:54.568Z,14048,0,14,13,921,0,0,4607.8,80160,anon3379761435,anon3379761435," I have been aware of the existence of [Modern Monetary Theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory) for a while. It's hard not to, especially now. SARS-COV-2 has convinced central bankers and heads of government to magick into existence trillions of Euros in relief packages almost overnight, with very anon2488317424 hand wringing on public deficits. In a way, we live in a MMT world now. But I am lazy, and so I waited for the release of a book aimed at the general public as a primer. We now have one: Stephanie Kelanon2863106368's *The Deficit Myth*, released last week straight into the New York Times's bestsellers list. I have read it. Perhaps some of you have, too – I imagine @anon930409743 and @anon3208609502, for example, to be familiar with MMT at this point. So, we are ready to consider MMT as a potential building block of Sci-Fi Economics. ## About Modern Monetary Theory MMT's main idea is: currency issuers can never, by definition, run out of the currency they issue, as long as that currency is ""full fiat"", not pegged to something else (like gold or another currency). This has profound implications: 1. A currency-issuing government does not spend tax revenue. Rather, it spends money into existence and taxes it out of existence. 2. A currency-issuing government budget deficit is just a number on a spreadsheet, and has no economic significance. 3. If a currency-issuing government issues the currency commonly accepted as payment for international trade, its foreign trade deficit is also just a number that has no economic significance. In today's world, that would be the USA. 4. Fiscal policy, not monetary policy, is the main tool for government intervention in the economy. Used well, it opens up a much broader array of outcomes than we are accustomed to seeing. More on this later. 5. Inflation is a potentially serious problem, because a currency-issuing government could in principle stoke up a demand for more resources than are available in the economy, pushing prices up. 6. However, inflation control as we do it today is inefficient. Moreover, it is inhumane. In many countries, authorities target a rate of unemployment that they think will not cause inflation ([NAIRU](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAIRU)). In Kelanon2863106368's vivid words, this policy ""uses people as human shields against inflation"". I find MMT compelling. It's not even a theory, exactly: Kelanon2863106368 calls it a description. It's based on accounting identities and careful consideration of the concrete legal mechanisms whereby the US Congress authorizes public federal expenditure, and the Federal Reserve issues and buys back securities. These are not theories or opinions, but facts. I cannot find any contestable claims here. So, at least for now, I accept that MMT holds true. ## MMT and science fiction economies ### Understanding the Public Service Employment program I propose that some of [the science-fictional economies we have been looking at](/t/8582) are a good fit for MMT. It seems likely that those worlds are ""MMT worlds"". To make this argument I have to go a bit deeper into MMT's policy prescriptions. MMT economists are fans of [automatic stabilizers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_stabilizer). These are components of public expenditure which react to the economic cycle, with no need for decision making. Taxes are an example: if the economy slows down and our income declines, our tax bill also declines, helping us to go through the difficult period. The main policy prescription of *The Deficit Myth* is an unusual type of automatic stabilizer: a government job guarantee. The idea is this: the federal government anon192389820 anyone who is out of a job. It pays a not-very-attractive salary, but still a decent one, with health care and paid leave. When the economy is bullish, it is easy to find private sector jobs that pay better, so few people would want those government jobs. In a recession, though, many more people would take them rather than be unemployed. The number of people in these federal jobs, so, goes up and down according to the economic cycle, with no decision needed. This means *perpetual full employment*, which in turn means more buoyant consumption. This would help businesses get through the recession in a less traumatic way. Workers avoid great suffering and productivity decline associated to long-term unemployment. Ok, but in practice what would these federal workers do? Kelanon2863106368: > Several MMT economists have recommended that the jobs be oriented around building a care economy. Very generally, that means the federal government would commit to funding jobs that are aimed at caring for our people, our communities, and our planet. There is a detailed proposal for such a program in the USA ([report by Wray et. al.](http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/rpr_4_18.pdf)), called Public Service Employment (PSE). Its main policy objective is of course employment itself, but there is a list of additional ones: > * To guarantee a basic human right to a job, as outlined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights and President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s call for an economic bill of rights. > * To implement an employment safety net. [...] > * To serve the public purpose. [...] > * To be used as a vehicle for addressing other social ills—urban blight, environmental concerns, etc. Only the federal government, as the currency issuer, can fund the PSE. But both Kelanon2863106368 and Wray insist that it should be up to the states and communities to decide what constitutes ""public service"" for them. PSE is the cornersanon2863106368e of MMT's policy: if past experiences are anything to go by, it could employ between 5 and 25% of the labor force at any given time. That is a lot of people, and what they do matters. If we could really deploy this much workforce towards nonmarket objectives, there would be a lot we, as a society, could do. Mariana Mazzucato rightly claims that [innovation has not only a rate, but also a direction](https://www.climate-kic.org/community/mariana-mazzucato-mobilising-for-a-sustainable-future/). MMT is compatible with expanding that statement: *the whole economy* has a direction, not just innovation. Given monetary sovereignty, policy makers can and should target objectives, or ""missions"" as Mazzucato prefers to say, that are *not* economic per se: go to the Moon, eliminate child poverty, beautify cities, reclaim ecosystems, abate aggressively CO2 emissions etc. This is what makes MMT so useful for sci-fi authors, and so attractive to me. ### Provisioning, not paying Kelanon2863106368 insists that, when it comes to public spending, ""How will you pay for it?"" is a meaningless question. Since currency-issuing governments create their own currency, by definition they pay for everything in the same way: they credit the Treasury account in the Central Bank. Treasury then goes on to use those account for paying salaries and bills. But there is a similar, meaningful question: ""anon2696444391 will you *provision* it?"" Which means: never mind financial resources, do the *real* resources actually exist to do what we want to do? Do we have enough skilled people, anon2863106368s of steel, gigawatts of energy etc. to achieve our objectives? Are these resources lying fallow, or will we be competing for them with the private sector? Kelanon2863106368 quotes excerpts from the speech president Kennedy addressed to Congress to ask it to approve the Apollo program. Kennedy used it to reassure representatives that America could put a manned flight on the Moon's surface: the skills were there, the manufacturing capacity was there. He never mentioned money – he knew money not to be an issue. A more passing reference is made at the WW2 wartime effort, the only time when America really achieved full employment. Again, what mattered to the strategist was provisioning the military: anon2696444391 many tanks can we make in a months? But wait, to bring them to Europe we will need extra ships – anon2696444391 many can we make of *those*? That depends on anon2696444391 many people we can hire in the shipyards and the steel mills providing them, which in turn depends on anon2696444391 much food housing we can produce for the extra workers in those areas, and so on. This is anon2696444391 the better-thought through science fiction economies work. Take Kim Stanley Robinson's *Mars Trilogy:* in the first book, a hundred people and a lot of heavy industrial equipment land on Mars. Since on Mars there is nothing to buy, what they can do is limited by their resources. In order to do anything (say, raising the athmospheric pressure as a first step towards terraforming) they need a habitable environment that protects them from cosmic radiation (or they will all soon develop cancer, and dead people do not terraform). But to build a habitable environment they first need to drill tunnels in the regolith, make enough air to pressurize them, and produce oxygen to make it breathable. This requires energy and plants. Fortunately, they brought nukes and a space greenhouse from Earth, but they need to manage them carefully across other possible (and competing) uses... you get the idea. Most of the Martian economy and society we see in the second and third book (except for people, since at some point Mars has strong immigration) are an outgrowth of the materiel and personnel landed in that one ship. In economic terms, the Martian colonists are working with something similar to a [Leontief matrix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productive_matrix). So are the walkaways in Cory Doctorow's *Walkaway"". The latter have access to scavenging the default economy for unwanted resources, but at the end of the day they have to produce their own food, energy, vehicles, communication networks, with these things being both products and production inputs to other goods and services. Having transitioned to a moneyless economy, they face constraints in terms of real resources. Other fictional worlds in sci-fi work have less of an explicit emphasis on Leontief-like input-output planning techniques. Still, they set themselves civilizational goals, and then shape their economies so that those goals can be attained. For example, the Acquis in Bruce Sterling's *The Caryatids* is basically a gigantic operation to reclaim ecosystems lost to climate change and other man-made disasters. Earth superpowers in Paul McAuley's *Quiet War* books and the Utopan Hive in Ada Palmer's *Terra Ignota* have a similar attitude. All these are much more compatible with MMT than with standard issue neoclassical economics. ## Where is the violence? MMT could be an important piece of the completely different economic system so many of us are longing for. This is why we need to make sure we fully understand the conditions for it to work. Which brings me to the violence. Vinay Gupta (@anon ### Why money is useful According to MMT, a currency-issue government can never run out of the currency it itself issues. Moreover, that government is sure that everybody will always want more of that currency. Why? Because it demands people pay taxes to it, and those taxes must be paid in the government's own currency. Why does this make the currency attractive? Because the government has the power, and the will, to harm those that refuse to pay taxes. According to MMT, taxes are not where government gets its money, because governments issue their own currency. They are there to make sure people accept that currency as payment. Without threat of violence, there is no currency in the MMT sense. This view is fully consistent with historical evidence on anon2696444391 cash money was invented and adopted. I learnt it from David Graeber's fantastic *Debt. The First 5,000 Years*. Here's anon2696444391 it works: Athenian army engages in imperialistic expansion wars in the Aegean Sea. The problem is provisioning the army during the invasion, with the home agricultural land too far away. The solution is this: army attacks rival city, pillages its gold from temples, divides it up in small lumps, gives it to the soldiers. At the same time it announces that it is going to extract a tribute, *in gold*, from the occupied city. Athenian soldiers then walk up to farmers and exchange their gold against food. Farmers collect the gold and give it back to the Athenian occupation administration, which uses it to pay its goons and start the cycle all over again. Voilà: the occupied are now provisioning the occupants. Without violence, there is no cash. ### The continuum of monetary sovereignty *The Deficit Myth* repeats several times that MMT only applies to governments with ""monetary sovereignty"". It then goes on to repeat that monetary sovereignty ""is best thought of as a continuum"". A government has it if: 1. It issues its own fiat, floating currency. This excludes local and city governments; states that use the currency of other states (like Costa Rica); states whose currency is pegged to the currency of other states (like Argentina before the *corralito* crisis); and the Eurozone countries, since the ECB, not they, is the issuer of the Euro. 2. It does not carry heavy debt denominated in currencies other than its own. This excludes many middle- and low-income countries, like Mexico, Brazil and Indonesia. 3. And then there is *full* monetary sovereignty. This term describes the USA's unique position as the issuer of the currency used in international payments. They can ignore not only their internal budget deficit, but also their foreign trade deficit. In fact, the issuer of the global currency *must* have a trade deficit, otherwise there won't be enough of that currency to carry out international trade. This is called [the Triffin paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma). It is easy to see that monetary sovereignty is highly correlated with sovereignty tout court. The stronger your economy, diplomacy and military, the more complete your monetary sovereignty. And the USA has by far the strongest military in the world. A good reason to accept the US dollar is that, if push comes to shove, the US might make you. A country could refuse to accept dollars as a payment, but it would probably suffer some diplomatic pressure, at least. It has even been [claimed](https://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/22/the-usa-attacked-iraq-because-saddam-had-wd/) that the American invasion of Iraq was motivated by that country's [announcement](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeuro), in 2000, that its oil exports were henceforth to be paid in Euro. Without a big military, there is no global currency. ## To summarize... MMT is an elegant, robust, pragmatic body of work in economics. It is heterodox, but solid and difficult to refute. It enables much more directionality in anon2696444391 we run our economies, and it allows a for a broader array of outcomes, including full employment. Its attention to real (rather than monetary) resources makes it a good candidate for running a sci-fi economy, especially in planet colonization scenarios. At the same time, the acceptance of currency in MMT is predicated on the threat of violence. This is not to say that competing approaches (say, money supply theory) are any less violent. Nevertheless, when incorporating it in the systems we imagine in the Sci-Fi Economics Lab, we need to pay attention to this violence, and make sure it is exercised with appropriate restraint, if at all." 2,80208,2020-07-10T06:26:29.378Z,14048,2,9,8,5,0,0,36.8,80160,anon3208609502,anon3379761435,"Hi, Alberto- Sure, I have been aware of Kelanon2863106368 and MMT for a while. It is a variation of what Milanon2863106368 Friedman called ""helicopter money"" in his 1969 ""The Optimum Quantity of Money"", but Friedman didn't think much of it -- that fell to Willem Buiter in his 2003 ""Helicopter Money: Irredeemable Fiat Money and the Liquidity Trap Or Is Money Net Wealth After All?"", which I highly recommend (https://www.willembuiter.com/helinber.pdf). It seems to me that Helicopter Money of one kind or another is a very useful tool in a downturn or when there is significant slack capacity, but otherwise it is money, and as such if there is too much of it chasing too few goods it causes inflation, which degrades the value of the currency. That said, I don't want to denigrate the value of this kind of intervention. I have been advocating it for a while. As you know, in Japan in the 80s, then after the Financial Crisis in the US in 2008, then in Europe after the Eurozone Crisis of 2010, Quantitative Easing (QE) was practiced. QE involves the central bank buying large quantities of, in this case in the US, mortgage-backed securities and corporate bonds. This increases demand for those securities and raises their value, which stabilizes the markets. The money used for these transactions was not newly created money, due to inflation concerns, but was ""sterilized"" by the central bank starting to pay commercial banks interest to hold funds at central bank branches, essentially paying them to keep money out of circulation. This kind of action is good in a crisis, but it had the negative side-effect of raising the incomes of holders of bonds, who are mostly rich people, and increasing inequality. What it does not do is put money in regular people's pockets when they need it after a downturn that is no fault of theirs. George W. Bush in June 2008 paid all taxpayers $600 each. This was supposed to stimulate the economy and short-circuit the incipient recession. It obviously did not, because of the complications of mortgage-backed securities (oops). Congress and Mr Trump have now built on that experience by paying $1,200 to every taxpayer, along with propping up many employers. This has has the result of reducing unemployment from 14.7% in April to 13.3% in March. This is starting to look more like Helicopter Money, and it is having a positive effect, albeit at great cost ($2 trillion). The difference, of course, is that it is not newly created money. Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) is predicated on the basis that under certain conditions new money can be issued without significant risk of inflation. Given our experience so far, that looks increasingly possible, but it is highly advisable to be cautious about the constraints: the economy should have significant slack, only a modest amount of money should be issued -- basically enough to reinvigorate demand for labor, politically correct investments should be avoided in favor of investment in projects that have sound commercial justification (real demand),the program should be stopped once the economy has recovered. They would also need to observe the limitations you mentioned: monetary sovereignty, etc. This looks like it might be best if it were more modest than billed by people like Bernie Sanders and similar populists like Jeremy Corbin, because of course they are politicians who are trying to get votes. In any project which involves large-scale government intervention, a very big issue should be oversight. This is certainly as true for left-oriented projects as for those on the right -- there is a long long string of countries that have gone bankrupt as a result of politicization of handing ""free"" money out, from the Soviet Union to Cuba to Venezuela to Pakistan and Sri Lanka and various African countries as well as examples in rich countries -- one can go on and on. I realize that Kelanon2863106368 talks about not issuing debt in someone else's currency in order to avoid this, but the inflation that would eventually ensue if a great deal of new money was created ends up in a similar situation. Independent oversight by an independent balanced group of experts with resources and authority and conservative instincts is key and rarely included, because this is the point, right? A slush fund for pet projects! Funding least common denominator jobs is very expensive. India has such a program -- the only way they can afford it is to make it pretty unattractive (day labor) and attach conditions that discourage people from applying. Andrew Yang's Universal Basic Income (UBI) of $12,000/yr for all Americans doesn't sound like much -- and it isn't -- but it would have cost several trillion dollars. Here is a pretty objective analysis, in my view (https://taxfoundation.org/andrew-yang-value-added-tax-universal-basic-income/). Moreover, Yang wanted to have his UBI REPLACE current welfare benefits -- this is anon2696444391 he keeps the cost down -- but this means poor people often see a DECREASE in their income as a result of this program -- not a great advertisement, unless you are a member of the middle class, who would be the greatest beneficiaries. I'm a fan of C. H. Douglas' Social Credit Theory -- the part where he advocates levying a tax on the use of capital which has been built using previously invented technology. It strikes me as having a reasonable theoretical and philosophical foundation -- that this capital is making income because of inventions that are now in the ""public domain"", and the value of this public intellectual property should accrue to the public. Forget all the rest of Social Credit, which gets weird and cranky, but this idea has merit -- Bill Gates has proposed a ""technology tax"" that seems to me not unrelated but is not nearly as soundly based. By the way, Robert Heinlein's first novel, written in 1939 but not published until after his death, ""For Us The Living"", is one of those talky idea-based scifi novels (that's why it wasn't published) built around this concept (instead of the libertarianism for which Heinlein is known -- that is why Heinlein himself never published it). It is Heinlein, though, so it is readable, though the relations between the sexes are as ever cranon2945747231-worthy... The thing about Social Credit in this form is that it is a justification for a sustainable UBI, which would be based on existing production, instead of when necessary creating value out of nothing. If the theory is correct, and if in fact Social Credit does not slow production, because the capital on which it is based is a form of economic ""rent"" -- income in excess of its true added value to productivity -- then building an economy around Social Credit could potentially work. No non-producing entity -- even a government -- can produce value from nothing, so trying to use MMT as a constant tool of policy instead of an infrequent intervention is in my view a recipe for disaster." 3,80209,2020-07-10T06:55:27.742Z,14048,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,80208,anon3208609502,anon3208609502,"As for violence... Hobbes talked about the state being based on a monopoly of the capacity for violence. In the USA, we have opted to arm the citizenry with an eye to counteracting that... which I have my doubts about... By the way, there is a scifi book called ""The Weapon Shops of Isher"" written by A. E. Van Gogt in 1951, that makes a case for having an armed capacity to resist the government. Taxes mean taking money from people. We try to make it as nonviolent as possible, so long as they let their money go peaceably. If they agree to the tax this is more likely to be peaceful -- that is why I mention the justification for taxing capital. MMT is likely to be peaceable up until the point when it starts producing significant inflation." 4,80210,2020-07-10T08:03:03.681Z,14048,1,6,5,1,1,0,11.2,80208,anon3379761435,anon3208609502,"Hi @anon3208609502, thanks for the thoughtful response. I had not thought about helicopter money (though it just happened here, but only in the Flanders region, and only for a small sum) – I guess anon2696444391 consumers react to it depend on their expectations. If you think of it as a one-off, you will attempt not to change your consumer behavior – except in the case you are struggling to make ends meet: then you will likely immediately spend it to pay a few overdue bills. [quote=""anon3208609502, post:2, topic:14048""] Funding least common denominator jobs is very expensive. [/quote] Yes... but the whole point of MMT is that ""expensive"" does not matter, because the government prints its own money. What matters, like you say (and Kelanon2863106368 re-iterates several times), is that inflation is kept under control. Kelanon2863106368 claims that PSE *helps* to control inflation, because, by keeping people at work and constantly reskilling them, they keep the economy more productive. Higher productivity, of course, means that the economy can absorb more demand before the inflationary constraint starts to bite. Both *The Deficit Myth* and the Wray report discuss the Indian government jobs program and other cases, including that of the Public Works Administration under the New Deal in America, the Expanded Public Works Program in South Africa and the [Jefes de Hogar](https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-reports/documentdetail/993831468741634839/argentina-jefes-de-hogar-heads-of-household-program-project) program in Argentina (MMT economists, like Tchereva and Wray, were involved in designing the latter). None is close to the PSE ideal, though. PSE is supposed to be universal and permanent. As for UBI, it appears that MMT economists do not advocate it. Once you have PSE, you no longer need UBI. You can even have it, but at this point it would become a very marginal instrument: most people would take a job over UBI. I think I would much prefer a PSE economy (like in *The Caryatids* by @anon" 5,80252,2020-07-11T05:26:08.046Z,14048,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,80210,anon3208609502,anon3379761435,"Alberto- I agree that MMT can be very helpful, but it has constraints, which I enumerated. So... it's viable. On a anon2373157426 different tack: here is an article written by Hernando de Soto Polar, a Peruvian economist who has been on a quest to enable informal workers to gain property rights and therefore gain access to the financial system, thereby leveraging their assets. He has been doing this for decades -- it is a VERY interesting approach from someone who is NOT an outsider, but a Peruvian who has been working on this approach not only in Peru but also worldwide since the 80s. No, not a statist approach, but perhaps even more interesting because it proposes a counter-narrative to the current one. Moreover, it is available to just those countries which do not have monetary sovereignty which would otherwise be forced into huge external debt. https://www.project-syndicate.org/onpoint/monetizing-dead-capital-in-developing-worlds-informal-economy-by-hernando-de-soto-2020-07?utm_source=Project%20Syndicate%20Newsletter&utm_campaign=e180799b67-op_newsletter_2020_07_10&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_73bad5b7d8-e180799b67-93834185&mc_cid=e180799b67&mc_eid=16b2556e75 He writes in part: ""To realize these gains [capitalizing on gaining formal recognition of land rights and their subsurface minerals], one first must understand that capital creation is the result of an invisible chain that links existing property documents – records of who owns what, anon2696444391, and where – to the documentary requirements of capital markets. Informals need to make that connection by packaging their documents according to law and accepted practices at both ends of the chain. That will give them the leverage to negotiate on equal terms with large-scale extractive firms that need to settle on their land to access the reserves beneath the surface."" . Mr de Soto is not your standard issue neolib -- he has been committed to improving the lives of informal workers for 40 years -- he chooses to do so using market mechanisms. Interesting approach." 1,79137,2020-06-18T11:15:24.067Z,13906,2,20,19,99,0,0,524.0,79137,anon4046128282,anon4046128282," [Screen shot: anon4046128282's iPhone App Store] **What is the Corona-Warn App?** As Germany’s lockdowns and restriction measures quickly ease amidst the slowing spread of the novel corona virus, the government has been hard pressed to balance a careful reopening with measures to ensure the containment of the virus. On Tuesday, the German government introduced the [Corona Warn App](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/themen/corona-warn-app), designed to identify and quickly “break chains of infection” (Lothar Wieler of the Robert Koch Institute). The App, which is being marketed as a voluntary download, alerts users when and for anon2696444391 long they have been in contact with someone who has tested positive for the virus. In a recent EdgeRyder Community Call, we talked to experts across Europe about the risks that contact tracing Apps pose for data security. Many agreed that these Apps and similar technologies force an unnecessary trade-off in which civil liberties may be sacrificed in the interest of fighting the virus. Experts warned of three major risks: a) we don’t have a clear privacy-friendly solution for the development of these technologies and it is therefore unclear where the data will be sourced from (and by whom) and anon2696444391 it will be regulated, b) there is an unequal distribution of risk as this may lead to the disproportionate targeting of vulnerable communities, and c) there is an absence of the counterfactual, meaning we don’t yet know enough about the effectiveness of allowing ‘normal life’ to resume and it is therefore risky to develop strategies without clear, counterfactual knowledge to work with. More on our discussions [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-results-of-the-community-listening-post-on-risks-for-freedom-in-the-wake-of-covid-19/13183), [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/ethnography-team-reflection-on-a-surveillance-pandemic/13248/4) and [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-reflection-of-the-methods-of-the-community-listening-post-9th-april-2020/13207). In light of these discussions, I was curious to learn more about Germany’s App. I am from and currently live in Berlin, where many restrictions have already been lifted and where the summer months have brought more and more people out to public parks, restaurants and bars. **How can Germany feasibly guarantee users’ data privacy, hem further surveillance and effectively contain the spread of the virus?** The App – developed by the German government in collaboration with Apple, Google (using their “privacy-focused” technology) and Deutsche Telekom AG (Germany’s largest telecommunication company) – has received anon2373157426 a lot of praise for its seemingly data-friendly solution (even Chaos Computer Club (CCC) has not issued any critiques thus far): Users have been assured that their data privacy will not be compromised and that contact data will not be saved centrally (though this was the original plan), but will instead be stored on the smartphones themselves. According to its developers, the App also does not log users’ location, but uses Bluetooth to allow users to share information. Users are also guaranteed anonymity while using the app, whereby each device is allocated an identification number, which is then visible to all other app users when in the same vicinity. During a span of two weeks, all user IDs are stored in your app, and, if one of those users tests positive during that two week span, your App alerts you. After two weeks, the data is erased. It seems that the effectiveness of this App is largely based upon the people using it. According to virologists at the [University of Oxford](https://www.research.ox.ac.uk/Article/2020-04-16-digital-contact-tracing-can-slow-or-even-stop-coronavirus-transmission-and-ease-us-out-of-lockdown), such Apps are only effective if around 60% of the population uses them. In the German case, the effectiveness of the App also depends on users uploading their test results to the app: if a person tests positive for the virus, they receive a unique QR code which they then have to scan into their smartphone/the App. Only then can other users, who have been in contact with that person, be notified. Users are notified anonymously, meaning they don’t find out who the infected individual is, but they are informed about their personal risk level of infection and are urged to seek testing. The App – which cost 20m Euro to develop and will require 3m Euro a month to operate – has an open source program code, meaning it can theoretically be copied and updated by other countries. The German government hopes that other European countries will follow suit and that a system will quickly be built that works across Europe. Within the first day of its launch, the App was downloaded close to 1m times, anon2696444391ever many remain sceptical about what this means for their data privacy and anon2696444391 these technologies might feed in to further surveillance. According to a recent poll, around 42% of those surveyed, feel comfortable using the App, as opposed to 39% who said they wouldn’t and 19% who either did not own a smart phone or felt they needed more information. I talked to a handful of family members and friends about their views of the App (most around the age of 30). Their reactions split across two main groups: Most (group 1) felt that they did not have enough information about the App, its aims and functions and its implications for data security, and are sceptical of downloading it. Many said, they will ‘wait and see’ anon2696444391 useful and secure the App is before they consider downloading it. The second, much smaller group was optimistic about the App; several had already downloaded it, others were strongly considering it. Many in this group cited their trust in the government and that, since the data is not stored centrally, they felt comfortable using it. This group also believes the App is the best way to contain the spread of the virus. This is just a cursory glance at the recent developments in Germany’s contact-tracing App technology, but I am curious to hear from the rest of the EdgeRyders community. What are your thoughts?" 2,79139,2020-06-18T12:05:58.962Z,13906,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,79137,anon3592950533,anon4046128282,"Dear All Well, here my (= 65y, STEM education, first contact with IT was when we used TTYs and punch cards) short comment: (1) I dislike the App because I do not run around with an open Bluetooth connection and location services switched on . (2) I downloaded the App and noticed that it is easy to switch it on/off. (3) I plan to use the App in circumstances when I have to trade off 'close distance to many unknown persons' against '(1)' (4) Condition '(3)' will be met seldom considering my current place of living & style of life. Hence, the App is like my bicycle helmet. It is to use when meaningful - neither in bed nor at a dinner table; may be in public transport. best regards, Martin" 3,79140,2020-06-18T12:22:42.009Z,13906,0,16,15,1,1,0,23.2,79137,anon3379761435,anon4046128282,"[quote=""anon4046128282, post:1, topic:13906""] Many said, they will ‘wait and see’ anon2696444391 useful and secure the App is before they consider downloading it. [/quote] Yes, that is also my impression of the more IT-literate folks. Italy has its own version, called Immuni. It uses the same Bluetooth-based Google-Apple approach and protocol as the German one. After some complaints, the developer released [the source code](https://github.com/immuni-app/immuni-app-android). Reputable bloggers like Salvatore Aranzulla have given [a cautious thumbs-up](https://www.aranzulla.it/come-funziona-lapp-immuni-1215043.html). So why are people like, er, me, still dragging our feet? In my case, it's because of the Manning-Snowden revelation. Everything looks good on the surface, but we now know there is a depth of backdoors, shadowy deals and gigadatabases watched over by three-letter agencies (and their private sector partners). In other words: I cannot fully trust Immuni because I cannot fully trust *anything*. That makes me feel a mild irritation, an itch that I cannot scratch. There is really no way out. No hiding from Sauron's Eye. So, I might as well download the app... but my motivation is low, I would be serving even more data on a silver platter (and willingly, ticking the ""I accept the T&C"" box) to a system I cannot believe in. I will still do it... but I need to see a large and immediate gain. Which is now – as per our conversation – not clear is there." 4,79143,2020-06-18T13:13:51.574Z,13906,2,15,14,1,0,0,48.0,79137,anon1753543892,anon4046128282,"I would also like to share a notion that one of my friends shared as a behaviour she observed in herself: ""Fitness app wants access to my information? No problem. Government Corona app? I better read and research carefully, one never knows...""" 5,79153,2020-06-18T15:17:51.301Z,13906,0,13,12,1,1,0,7.6,79139,anon3379761435,anon3592950533,"[quote=""anon3592950533, post:2, topic:13906""] Hence, the App is like my bicycle helmet. It is to use when meaningful - neither in bed nor at a dinner table; may be in public transport. [/quote] Great summary, @anon3592950533!" 6,79154,2020-06-18T15:18:47.258Z,13906,1,13,12,1,1,0,12.6,79143,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:4, topic:13906""] “Fitness app wants access to my information? No problem. Government Corona app? I better read and research carefully, one never knows…” [/quote] I do not do that, Maria. Fitness app *definitely* does not get my data." 7,79156,2020-06-18T15:22:50.928Z,13906,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,79154,anon1753543892,anon3379761435,"Absolutely, but this was just to add that for many it does and it is also interesting that we are having this conversation now with the corona app on this scale when it should probably have been had already way before." 8,79172,2020-06-19T07:50:50.597Z,13906,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,79137,anon3379761435,anon4046128282,"Belgian version: as I write, there's [a bit of an uproar](https://www.anon738668702f.be/info/belgique/detail_un-big-brother-belge-soupconne-de-mutiples-conflits-d-interets-seul-aux-commandes-du-tracage-du-coronavirus?id=10525390&utm_source=anon738668702finfo&utm_campaign=social_share&utm_medium=twitter_share) against the Belgian COVID tracking app. Technically, the solution adopted is centralized, unlike in Germany and Italy, with [Sciensano](https://sciensano.be), the public health institute, acting as the center. Legally, we appear to be on very shaky grounds. Because: * The agency authorized to push the data onto the central repository, the Information Security Committee, is in a legal gray zone: it was instituted by Parliament in 2018, against the advice of the European Commission and the Belgian Council of State. This advice argued that the ISC is not GDPR-compliant. A recent inquiry by the magazine Wilfried also claims that parliament's procedures, and the constitution itself, were violated in instituting it. * Frank Robben, a high-achiever computer scientist and civil servant, is accused of standing at the intersection of multiple conflicts of interest around health data. He (by request of the government) is the material author of the bill framing Belgium's COVID app, as well as the creator of of the ISC itself. Additionally, he occupies [a position in the Belgian Data Protection Authority](https://www.dataprotectionauthority.be/composition), and this is allegedly illegal, because appointees to the DPA are not supposed to occupy public office. Notice anon2696444391 this lack of trust – both the one originating in America and the Five Eyes and the homegrown Belgian one – has nothing to do with COVID. It comes from a generalized loss of trust in the robustness of institutions, a vague but pervasive idea that we are screwed, and will always be screwed, and anything new that comes around will just lead to more ways for us to get screwed. It's sad, really." 9,79189,2020-06-19T12:21:02.719Z,13906,0,13,12,2,0,0,12.6,79143,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,😆 attention is selective 10,79552,2020-06-25T10:53:21.629Z,13906,0,11,10,1,1,0,37.2,79137,anon794158989,anon4046128282,"[quote=""anon4046128282, post:1, topic:13906""] The App – which cost 20m Euro to develop and will require 3m Euro a month to operate. [/quote] At first this seemed high considering the amount of work already done by Google/Apple, but I remembered that the German government must also put together the infrastructure that temporarily houses all the matching data (between those infected and those who they contacted). [quote=""anon4046128282, post:1, topic:13906""] Within the first day of its launch, the App was downloaded close to 1m times, anon2696444391ever many remain sceptical about what this means for their data privacy and anon2696444391 these technologies might feed in to further surveillance. According to a recent poll, around 42% of those surveyed, feel comfortable using the App, as opposed to 39% who said they wouldn’t and 19% who either did not own a smart phone or felt they needed more information. [/quote] Of course we can see the cognitive dissonance between those who do not trust the app but feel comfortable sharing deeply personal information on social media networks. I'm sure there are even those who do not trust this app but have volunteered their genetic information to 23andme. On one hand, that's frustrating. On the other, I'm not sure anon2696444391 we can expect anything different. There is absolutely no formal education on this subject for children or adults in the United States. Congress has been [passing digital privacy legislation for over a half century](https://schmud.de/posts/2020-06-15-personal-privacy.html) and it seems largely ineffective. Most likely because lawmakers also don't understand the issue very well. [quote=""anon4046128282, post:1, topic:13906""] I talked to a handful of family members and friends about their views of the App (most around the age of 30). Their reactions split across two main groups: Most (group 1) felt that they did not have enough information about the App. [/quote] Your informal survey is pretty interesting. On your first group, I've found even when I try and educate friends and family who trust me on this issue, they still don't feel like they have enough information. It seems like it's not a one-shot fix. The education problem is broad; the app is a symptom." 11,79710,2020-06-29T15:06:57.444Z,13906,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,79137,anon4046128282,anon4046128282,"Really enjoying reading the comments here! I find the point that @anon1753543892 and @anon794158989 are making anon2373157426 interesting. Of course, many of us don't think twice about giving apps/social media our personal information, so the scepticism around Covid apps might seem odd. I wonder if our perceptions of personal agency play a role here? Isn't there a relevant difference between individually deciding to download, say, a fitness app and our government asking us to download an app they designed? When I took my small survey sample, a decisive distinguishing factor between those willing to use the app and those unwilling was their trust in the government: the friends and family members that were using the app explicitly cited their trust in the German government. Those sceptical or unwilling, similarly talked about distrust or wariness around anon2696444391 data was actually going to be used." 12,79806,2020-06-30T20:09:17.926Z,13906,1,8,7,1,1,0,11.6,79710,anon794158989,anon4046128282,"[quote=""anon4046128282, post:11, topic:13906""] I wonder if our perceptions of personal agency play a role here? Isn’t there a relevant difference between individually deciding to download, say, a fitness app and our government asking us to download an app they designed? [/quote] Good point. This highlights two important differences. 1. The feeling of *pulling* software based on your choice vs. the feeling of software being *pushed* upon you. The pull/push metaphor doesn't completely align, but I think it captures the salient difference. 2. Governments can legitimize detention and violence. They must always be held to the highest standard. History has sanon2696444391n the countless failures of all forms of governance so skepticism is healthy. The thread title asks *why more people aren't more skeptical* - but I wonder anon2696444391 this observation squares with our ""post-truth"" society and erosion of institutional trust. Or perhaps I'm overstating the latter?" 13,79867,2020-07-02T16:27:29.651Z,13906,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,79806,anon3203746736,anon794158989,"Yeah, while there is a perception that the private sector can be modified by the public sector through law and regulation, once something is in the government's hands, where is the oversight? What I find in the US is a vastly diminished willingness of government to provide that oversight and self-correct. Maybe European governments do better on that front. It's the oversight, the accountability, that is key." 14,80150,2020-07-08T17:21:56.759Z,13906,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,79867,anon794158989,anon3203746736,"I have a similar sense regarding a lack of enforcement. Antitrust is an easy example. As I understand the analysis, Congress empirically no longer enforces this as it once did. The law does not cover the practices of powerful tech companies as it is written. But it does not prevent Congress from writing new laws. Barlow’s Declaration of Independence is a double-edged sword. Governments are not welcome here, but a corporation with over a billion users have a different kind of power - one that even the US Congress seems shy to engage directly. I’m curious about the political science research here. Is the lack of action unique in the context of Standard Oil and AT&T? If so, have legislators changed because of money, a different international landscape, or a technological shift? Or is it more of the same - and AT&T overdue breakup and reemergence just and example of anon2696444391 it has always been?" 15,80245,2020-07-10T16:09:50.478Z,13906,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,80150,anon3203746736,anon794158989,"I think toppling a monopoly must be one of the harder tasks for a government. I remember when the AT&T decision came down wondering who would be next..and of course nobody was next. I think since then large corporations have much more political power than they even had back then, esp since the Citizens United decision that allows them to make unlimited donations to elected officials for their reelection campaigns. And, since the 80s, there have been more lobbyists in DC than legislators. All that influence makes trust busting way harder than it already was. Until a whole new group gets into Congress who are devoted to anti-monopolistic practices, I don't see anything meaningful happening in this area. As for anon2696444391 they deal with tech - always going to be hard because they rely on their staff to use it and understand it. And again those lobbyists...sometimes it is they who write the legislation." 1,80170,2020-07-09T07:27:57.475Z,14051,0,9,8,4,0,0,51.8,80170,anon1640400212,anon1640400212,"I’m Nacho Rodriquez, founder of Coworking and Co-living Canary Islands. It can be hard to make a small coworking space sustainable, but the business became more interesting when we evolved, in response to demand from freelancers from all over the world, to establish three co-living spaces. Co-livers have 24/7 access control via an app. This is crucial to our sustainability and more importantly, empowers co-livers to take ownership of the space. Work environments aren’t just people in a space together, they are about interacting and generating positive synergies with coworkers. As more companies become remote-friendly, it’s important that community remains a priority. Our response to COVID has been more physical than technology based so far: no sharing of desks, minimum distance respected, and more demand for private offices. More generally, 5G will open opportunities to work in rural areas where connectivity currently is a challenge." 4,80218,2020-07-10T09:48:44.625Z,14051,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,1,anon1640400212,anon1753543892, 5,80323,2020-07-13T09:59:29.812Z,14051,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,80170,anon3828707713,anon1640400212, 6,80454,2020-07-14T12:02:39.322Z,14051,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,80170,anon1753543892,anon1640400212, 7,80558,2020-07-15T13:45:08.542Z,14051,0,2,1,1,0,0,5.4,80170,anon1753543892,anon1640400212, 1,74305,2020-04-14T13:21:36.715Z,13206,0,23,22,20,0,0,134.6,74305,anon294806887,anon294806887,"*These are notes from our community call on Coping with Loss of work. If you were there, feel free to press Edit below and make additions or changes. We focus on the new people in the conversation, so special thanks to @anon2169295554 for joining and sharing today.* @anon2169295554 is based in Nothingham, joined Edgeryders in 2014 when the unMonastery Matera adventure was on (!) @anon @anon1753543892: in Stockholm, in the country where they're not doing anything right now: 'we just follow the news of what others are doing. Some people stay in, but we also had neighbors downstairs having a party.' Olivier @anon3645153774: teaches French to people who are not native speakers: 'It's nice that on a weekly basis I have a contact with people.' @anon2169295554 **worked** **at a** **UK** **University for 20 years, largely in IT and** **now in** **a role supporting teachers to use technologies.** > Our team had to decide anon2696444391 we were going to respond immediately. Each Faculty came up with a teaching continuity plan, anon2696444391 they would continue, which platforms would be supported. Zoom was not used much. Lots of universities in the UK are Microsoft customers so a decision was made to use Microsoft Teams, as access is restricted only to the campus users so it is more private than Zoom. This concern about using Zoom proved to be a good one, given recent news stories about privacy issues with the platform. ### What worked well/ not so well with the e-learning shift, and working as an educator online? > One of our senior staff already teaches a Distance Learning course online, and other colleagues had already contributed to MOOCs. Other than that, not many people appeared to be interested in the Edgeryder themes locally. ’ At the start of this crisis teachers had been on strike in the UK nationwide for two weeks before. The crisis refocused everything, because many Higher Education Institutions have made recent financial announcements to lay people off (‘furlough’ them), if their roles were not considered essential at this time. Some disciplines (eg Arts and Humanities) feel more vulnerable in these circumstances. Furloughed staff are able to claim 80% of their wages from the Government but it is unclear anon2696444391 long this might be for or what the future might hold for all staff in the sector. ### Challenges of eLearning and mental health The main challenge with eLearning is going to be to enable students to continue to complete assessments. Many staff have experienced the mental impact of having to move to new and unfamiliar ways of working. When we asked about anon2696444391 students are doing, @anon2169295554 said: > I think the mental impact on students is huge and is not always fully appreciated by Higher Education Institutions. In the UK there is a real epidemic of anxiety and mental health issues among youngsters [in general]. Is this similar in other countries? https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/mar/17/universities-having-to-adapt-fast-to-the-coronavirus-crisis ## From around the Edgeryders network In the past we have had students at UDK in Berlin speaking openly about mental health. But in that case, the connection was between creative focus and mental health, not so much the particularities of this age group. @anon https://anon1577251828.eu/t/under-pressure-on-the-relationship-between-creativity-and-emotional-mental-health/647 In a discussion problematising other similar conversations, our ethnographer was analysing the stories and commenting on the co-occurence of issues like mental health, art, and trauma: *I’ve been seeing an expansion of the discussion on mental health— not just focused on refugee issues, but also mental health issues across populations. Youth come up frequently, as do feelings of hopelessness in the face of the current labour market. There has been a repetitive feeling of disconnect between one’s own dreams and desires and the way cultural and social norms, as well as existing labour and $ structures, require one to live and attribute value to activities* [(source)](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/new-round-of-coding-what-do-we-see/6081). ## What is your experience with this issue? Is your teaching and learning life disrupted? We are listening and will continue to mobilize the network across many countries for honest advice. We are happy to meet you 'live' as well: next Tuesday for another one of these conversations. Register here: http://bit.ly/coronawork <3" 2,74306,2020-04-14T13:26:10.698Z,13206,1,18,17,1,0,0,28.6,74305,anon294806887,anon294806887,"Accounts of other learning environments and students can be offered by @anon2627552108 @anon2559300400 @anon192389820 ? You are all teaching - in Prague, London and Barcelona. Would you tell us anon2696444391 it is for your own personal life and anon2696444391 you see your institutions coping?" 4,74333,2020-04-14T20:03:35.901Z,13206,2,17,16,10,0,0,93.4,74306,anon192389820,anon294806887,"I am teaching at a private business school in Barcelona, in a course that is very untraditional for the institution - anon2696444391ever, they trust the coordinator and the team of instructors, so we have a lot of freedom. I only teach a few days a month, so I'm not deep into what happens at the university itself - there's been a bit of miscommunication around admin things, but nothing too disruptive. I get a fully licensed Zoom, with all features, which is enough for me as a teacher. Barcelona went into a strict lockdown, closing schools and universities, and the sudden shift has been a challenge of course - especially because I teach communication and public speaking in this class. It's different on Zoom, but then there's also similarities - a good pitch is a good pitch, whatever the ""medium"". However, I think the biggest impact isn't just moving online, it's that we're doing all of this in a crisis. I have death and grief in my family and close friends' families - and we can't even go to any funerals. We are helping students deal with events that we have never lived through ourselves, and I have been asked a few times now on my opinion on anon2373157426 personal issues. Normally, I would try not to stick to my area of expertise, but I think these times call for human approaches, so I tried to provide a viewpoint or lens that might clarify the situation and choices they faced. So tl;dr: Moving online is easy compared to helping others deal with a crisis." 6,74382,2020-04-15T10:55:00.900Z,13206,1,16,15,1,0,0,43.2,74333,anon2169295554,anon192389820,"Thank you @anon192389820 - I did read your post, as I didn't think it was too long ;). Yes, we are all in such a strange situation and I am concerned that we don't lose sight of the potential impact this can have on our students and teachers. Many have found themselves in places and situations in which they never expected to be at this time in their career (eg having to go back home to live with families, shared resources etc). This affects some more than others and we must not assume that carrying on studying and teaching is possible in all circumstances. Most Higher Education institutions in the UK have responded by introducing exceptional regulations for assessment and the subsequent progression and degree classification results which arise from this." 7,74474,2020-04-16T11:09:12.590Z,13206,1,12,11,1,1,0,42.4,74333,anon2559300400,anon192389820,"[quote=""anon192389820, post:4, topic:13206""] Moving online is easy compared to helping others deal with a crisis. [/quote] From my experience, this is very true. We have also moved all of our university classes online. What the students are missing more than anything is the social atmosphere of the university -- I hear them saying they miss their cohort (these are Masters students), working on class projects and papers together (even just being in the same space, not even collaborating), taking breaks from study together. So much of learning is in the in-between, when formal lectures aren't happening. That stuff is hard to replicate online. And it's interesting that you bring up mental health, @anon294806887, because I think what we found more than anything in Open Care is that having a strong sense of community massively helps with mental health issues. I just read the book Happy City, and the author finds the same thing --- *ambient* community feeling keeps us happy -- the people we chat to when we go get our morning coffee and all the people we recognise as we go about our daily lives. These points of contact are really important for the students as well -- it's not the formal learning that they're missing the most, it's all the ambient touchpoints that they no longer have. Space makes a huge difference -- being at the university brings a sense of scholarly-ness that makes diving into writing easier. These ambient effects are hard to replicate digitally. But people are trying! With things like digital study groups (we call them ""Shut Up and Write"" sessions, where you leave the webcam on and quietly study with others) and sites that create ambient sounds of coffeeshops and libraries." 8,74480,2020-04-16T12:25:14.188Z,13206,2,12,11,2,1,0,52.4,74474,anon294806887,anon2559300400,"[quote=""anon2559300400, post:7, topic:13206""] With things like digital study groups (we call them “Shut Up and Write” sessions, where you leave the webcam on and quietly study with others) and sites that create ambient sounds of coffeeshops and libraries. [/quote] This is very interesting! Have you attended one, does it work? I can only imagine - especially for those living alone - anon2696444391 much of a difference it makes to be connected to anything resembling social life. As students, I remember some of us could only study in the atmosphere you mention - which was to be found in the library: it was just enough quiet and just enough buzzy to make you committed to a certain focus and not procrastinate or feel lost. cc the tip above might be interesting for @anon3948045659 and @anon" 9,74484,2020-04-16T13:15:51.871Z,13206,0,12,11,2,0,0,27.4,74382,anon192389820,anon2169295554,"I think it'll be interesting to see what this means for the institutions. How soon do we think universities will open again, and what about those about to graduate high school? And if they do open before there's a vaccine, anon2696444391 will the ""daily routines"" need to change? I think me may see a need for a lot of exceptional regulations, and who knows, it may lead to some rethinking of the university institution?" 10,74495,2020-04-16T16:24:42.480Z,13206,1,13,12,1,1,0,57.6,74480,anon2559300400,anon294806887,"I have! One of my friends and I do this all the time -- she has a Jitsi feed open at set intervals, and you can just 'drop in' whenever you want to hang out and work together. Quick chat and hello, then down to work. It helps to keep you accountable for a while and get those co-study vibes. [quote=""anon294806887, post:8, topic:13206""] it was just enough quiet and just enough buzzy to make you committed to a certain focus and not procrastinate or feel lost. [/quote] Exactly -- this is what is sorely missing. There's also no moving somewhere else for a change of pace, a different kind of inspiration, to find another angle. I have always strongly felt that space shapes the way we can think and feel (it's partially what my dissertation is on) so it's hard to be stuck in the same place. It means we have to find imaginative ways of being elsewhere, changing the scene!" 11,74960,2020-04-24T00:51:53.507Z,13206,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,74495,anon2627552108,anon2559300400,"Hey everyone, here in Prague it seems Universities will be under lockdown until summer, but at least since recently, members of the faculty can meet in the offices now, in limited numbers. The Czech government decided for anon2373157426 a strict regime, which funnily enough, has been ruled to be implemented in an illegal manner just today by a court decision (on occasions, the rules were changing multiple times a day): https://www.radio.cz/en/section/news/prague-court-cancels-anti-coronavirus-restrictions-on-free-movement-retail-sales However, changing the scene, as Amelia mentions, is something I sorely miss. I was blessed (in the social dimension of it definitely) with bouncing each week between two workplaces I have at the University, which makes my usual rhythm relatively dynamic. I personally consider the high number of colleagues I meet to be the actual win. So we just decided this Tuesday to meet up in three people in our study room/lab and make plans for the rest of the semester/quarantine, taking advantage of the relaxed measures. As the room is big enough, we could keep some safe distance, have a coffee and talk in person. And no one seemed eager to be the first to leave, we actually stood by the door for additional 15 mins. Generally, we do not know when the Universities will allow students or public back in, but I hope we will keep these weekly mental revival sessions. Nevertheless, it is a privilege to have basically private premises which can serve such a purpose. The other institute I am teaching at holds weekly meetings of 30-60 people online to make up for the lack of verbal contact, but no one has come up with a ""Shut Up and Write"" online sessions yet, though the institute operates a ""silent room"" under normal circumstances. I am just not sure if the simple joy of talking would not override the first principle of the above-mentioned concept:)" 12,74965,2020-04-24T07:58:02.867Z,13206,1,11,10,1,1,0,12.2,74960,anon294806887,anon2627552108,"[quote=""anon2627552108, post:11, topic:13206""] we do not know when the Universities will allow students or public back in, but I hope we will keep these weekly mental revival sessions. [/quote] **'mental revival sessions',** well said! There is talking, and there is hanging out. And no virtual room will replace the hanging out unless you probably have years of accommodating. But definitely less so if that's *the only place* you work or meet people. I think it's because you cannot meet others in real life that the virtual sanon2696444391s its limitations. Friends of mine are reaching out because they are swamped with too many calls and the medium is much more tiring for them than real life. Others are hosting Bdays virtually (@anon2616197748 and other friends!). So lucky you that you can meet your colleagues! PS In Belgium schools are due to reopen - in some format - on 18th of May.." 13,75100,2020-04-26T17:25:24.920Z,13206,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,74965,anon2627552108,anon294806887,"Good point, not that long ago I had a single week in which I reached some 22 hours of work-oriented online meetings. But it seems that people began to realize that such an overuse is undermining the actual substance of interaction which is happening through virtual media and eased up a bit." 14,75592,2020-05-03T11:27:55.527Z,13206,2,8,7,2,0,0,51.6,74480,anon4218620973,anon294806887,"Love that ""shut up and write"" angle. Did you know in the established remote community there are already some sites/apps that help to foster that concentration and encourage virtual work mates (keeping each other to their goals) such as https://www.focusmate.com/" 15,75638,2020-05-04T09:03:31.501Z,13206,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,75592,anon294806887,anon4218620973,"A co-working app! Wow, the anon2863106368e of that site is very capitalist though.. 'reach a flow state on-demand', as if flow is something you can buy your way into :-) Have you tried any similar online cowork practices @anon" 16,75644,2020-05-04T09:29:39.888Z,13206,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,75592,anon3828707713,anon4218620973,reminds me a bit of that focus app @anon 17,75766,2020-05-05T14:46:22.321Z,13206,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,74305,anon294806887,anon294806887,Ping @anon1537101702: the lovely academia workers above could be directly interested in your upcoming session for the online summit! 18,75769,2020-05-05T15:09:45.819Z,13206,1,8,7,2,0,0,31.6,75766,anon1537101702,anon294806887,"thanks @anon294806887:) yes, we are definitely interested in challenges of learning in general, critical learning and when adapted to corona times, coping with e-learning! I`m working on a draft call for a session on precarity and dissent in higher education and the challenges of endangered knowledge workers. I think there are many intersecting points. Dissent also means critical thought, undoing the system and learning and there lies the challenges you so well mention in your thread here. Let`s continue the conversation here as well as the session prep page https://anon1577251828.eu/t/draft-session-on-refugee-researchers-and-precarity-in-higher-education/13414" 19,76000,2020-05-07T15:19:15.504Z,13206,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,75769,anon294806887,anon1537101702,"Perfect, give me a headsup when the first version of the session is ready and I will reach out to a few anon1577251828 who could benefit from attending!" 20,76121,2020-05-08T15:57:41.190Z,13206,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,76000,anon3828707713,anon294806887,"could maybe be a good idea have a look at this and see anon2696444391 you might like to contribute to/build on that conversation? https://www.artez.nl/en/webinar-crisis-education-critical-education I know Nishant who is organising that series so if there is some nice way you can think of to collaborate, Id be happy to get in touch with him about it." 21,76929,2020-05-19T12:19:01.928Z,13206,0,7,6,2,0,0,11.4,74305,anon1537101702,anon294806887,"thanks @anon3828707713:) I have the same link added on our session proposal here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/session-on-endangered-researchers-and-precarity-in-higher-education/13414 . I think we have a lot of intersections with this group, so let`s work together on the challenges!" 22,79752,2020-06-30T08:30:20.510Z,13206,1,3,2,1,0,0,25.6,74305,anon294806887,anon294806887,"Hello all, Last week I participated in one of the most interesting sessions about Academia and the hidden problems that honestly if you are not part of it, you don't ever find out. I think some of you could even have a point to make, so feel free to do it. We talked about things like the impermanence of positions, the danger in France and other countries to follow the liberal model and therefore making less and less space for novel, different academic voices. We also asked ourselves what is there for young people today who wish to join the Academia? And finally, there were also mentions of sexual harassment being problematic in the academic environment. This is where we continue the conversation: # [Who and What is the University of the 21st Century for? Breaking Through Neoliberal Agendas](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/who-and-what-is-the-university-of-the-21st-century-for-breaking-through-neoliberal-agendas/13986)" 23,79909,2020-07-03T20:10:07.911Z,13206,0,3,2,1,0,0,20.6,79752,anon1537101702,anon294806887,"thanks for the heads up @anon294806887:) your support has been really worthwhile all the way along. Folks at this session/thread: Just take a look at the discussions; a lot of the issues like precarities caused by hybrid education, discontents of online education as well as the class differences between students (1st generation university students vs others for instance) and anon2696444391 this reflects to life after school...these all are intersecting points I can think of as I see the content here. Would be glad to walk together to plan out smth. that would be of use for all of us." 1,78229,2020-06-03T19:34:24.986Z,13785,0,13,12,3,0,0,77.6,78229,anon2696444391,anon2696444391,"Continuing the discussion from [About the Tell Us About You category](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/about-the-tell-us-about-you-category/9790): Hello people, I was drawn to this conversation by way on Open Calls on the NGI.eu platform where I saw a link to https://anon1577251828.eu/t/is-the-communitarian-internet-back-in-the-wake-of-covid-19-a-conversation-with-anon2696444391ard-rheingold/12971. I was curious, as I know @anon2696444391ard_rheingold in person, and was happily surprised to see this is a Discourse site running! [quote=""anon1577251828, post:1, topic:9790""] What is a burning question that drives your work? [/quote] I don't reason in terms of a single question to drive my work, let alone it be a _burning_ question. If I would, I guess it would go something like: **given the current trends in energy consumption, what must we do to prevent the extinction of complex life on Earth and shift -- if at all possible -- to a way of life that makes us humans part of the global organism we call our planet?** [quote=""anon1577251828, post:1, topic:9790""] How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? [/quote] I was born, which is anon2696444391 we all get started. Then someday I hit a keyboard, sent an email, got response. It changed my life as I realized the Internet could be a life-changing phenomenon. In the last five years though, I tend to consider high-tech as more of a burden than a liberating mean, as too many critical people are not (going to be) using it, especially peasants, who are about the only people who can save us from the greed of obsolete economic and political theories. But I digress -- or not: maybe this the biggest hurdle I've met along the way, maybe it is really ; that _people in charge_ try to follow a normative model that does no-one any good, including themselves. I was lucky enough to spend some quality time -- although not enough -- with @anon2696444391ard_rheingold and what I learned from him is that brilliance requires a lot of compassion and love for life -- but not _Life_ in an abstract sense, but _incarnate life_, with strong presence to oneself and the others around you ; and this is not something that can find any technological solution. I bet if people were happier about their life on Earth, we'd be living with much less, in much better conditions. But... [quote=""anon1577251828, post:1, topic:9790""] Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? [/quote] Like everyone else I guess, I must compose with forces going in other directions. My biggest doubt, especially with the COVID-19 crisis, is that people may not be capable of getting rid of their over-costly habits -- when I hear that we should be ""catching up with what we 'missed' from being confined"" and that would be more energy consumption, more competition, more production, I have serious doubts we can make it. [quote=""anon1577251828, post:1, topic:9790""] What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path? [/quote] Never give up. If it seems impossible, it's probably because you're looking at it from, or ""through _unearthly_ angles"". Reality is entangled, and there _is_ ""spooky action at a distance"". What you see, is not what you get. And in @anon2696444391ard_rheingold's words: [quote=""anon2696444391ard_rheingold, post:4, topic:12971""] what it is —> is —>up to us [/quote] ### So, why this topic's name: ""Towards a Public Digital Infrastructure""? Well, I was eating from the trash, living in a squat, hacking away. And I met many other people in the same case, hacking on free software, privacy-enhancing software, software that was being critical to many other people organizing around the world. And every time the same topic was coming back: we lack funds. We're broke. We can't compete against giants... In 2012, a number of people gathered during the Berlin Art Biennial to discuss peer-to-peer Internet systems. Everyone had the same problem. So I started working on it. I met people. I looked around, asked around. In 2017 I founded the Public Universal Base: Libre Infrastructure Community (PUBLIC). We gather like-minded people, we go after funding. One call at a time. And from the dozen projects who were part of the 2012 P2P meeting in Berlin, I'm happy to say that most of them are now funded. Thanks to this cooperative effort of a bunch of people who, behind the scenes, build capacity for the free software community. And NGI has been helpful so far in this direction, but we're light-years away still to shift the paradigm from competition to cooperation, where all our efforts should be going since we do not have much time left to keep our civilization from crashing. The NGI effort is a tiny piece of the huge European construct. As it slowly grows towards acceptance of free software and the Commons, we humans have a chance to shift away from self-destruction. Thank you for your attention." 2,78233,2020-06-03T21:02:44.828Z,13785,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,78229,anon1753543892,anon2696444391,"Hello @anon2696444391, great to have you here! Looking forward to having you in the conversations here on the NGI Edgeryders platform. :) As you already know Howard Rheingold and the NGI project I think this recent post from Edgeryders Co-founder @anon3379761435 would be a good introduction of that part of the equation, and from your story, I think you will aprechiate the ""Stange Solace"" of Edgeryders: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/at-home-in-the-storm-the-strange-solace-of-being-anon1577251828/13451" 3,79651,2020-06-26T23:13:27.642Z,13785,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,78229,anon3203746736,anon2696444391,"Greetings @anon2696444391 I'm sorry I missed this the first time around. Obsessing about affairs over here in the USA no doubt. And here it is at the end of June with things just that much closer to...civilization crashing? You could infer that from anon2696444391 things are going in some parts of the USA. Fortunately not where I am and when last I talked with Howard a couple of weeks ago, they were fine too. I think that economic and racial justice are fully bound to the Covid virus now and can't be separated out. So added to pre and post covid NGI related questions about identity, surveillance, privacy, climate, working and functioning remotely, IoT and all the so-called smart tech must now be justice in ways that were perhaps given lower priority not too many months ago." 4,80103,2020-07-08T11:43:44.564Z,13785,0,6,5,0,1,0,31.2,78229,anon659222949,anon2696444391,"Ping @anon3379761435, @anon3828707713, @anon3203746736, @anon1976898802 [quote=""anon2696444391, post:1, topic:13785""] I was drawn to this conversation by way on Open Calls on the [NGI.eu ](http://NGI.eu) platform where I saw a link to [Is the communitarian Internet back in the wake of COVID-19? – A conversation with Howard Rheingold](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/is-the-communitarian-internet-back-in-the-wake-of-covid-19-a-conversation-with-anon2696444391ard-rheingold/12971). [/quote] I think he is referring to this: So we have some evidence now of some traffic being driven to us through using the webkit for the summit site." 1,66682,2019-12-02T16:01:37.872Z,12079,1,17,16,69,0,0,458.4,66682,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"# Solarpunk and Permaculture *an intro to solarpunk and some notes on permaculture* ## Attending * @anon2868057530 * [André Staltz](staltz.com) @anon490146484 * anon2071999133iel * cblgh/alex * Isak ## Notes * earliest found piece of solarpunk literature by zenna is 1993 * solarpunk is focused on more sustainable visions of society * walkaway by cory doctorow is one of the most inspiring * closely related to afropunk in terms of sci-fi genres * the Swedish sci-fi bokhandeln h * Sunvault: Stories of Solarpunk and Eco-Speculation * What part of th sci-fi is practical? * Walkaway example: for to contribute? * example system matches you up to job. * Hackerspace is an example * automating management * Still rely on social trust, utopian view * Create exploration of ideas. Example of city with gardens, no cars, panels, etc… * Not only just science fiction. Aligned with permaculture * selfmanufacturing, not using longer supply chains * The idea from walkaway that the magic machine can create what you need. * Example of salvage depot, example in Malmö. * Junk yard, available parts for repair * spare parts for computers. Against disposible. * Finding new purposes. * Fablabs example in book. * Montreal Storefront; with ability to make items. (eg https://www.futurenrgies.com) * small side rant on mastodon, a federated social microblogging service. ## Permaculture Book discussion: Building a better world in your backyard (instead of being angry at bad guys) a fact book, not a fiction book * personal responsibility; anecdote from the book about two people. Greta working 40hr weeks. Contrasted with another person (Gert) that lives locally in a community, greywater recycling, living like a millionaire. Contrast the idea of working 40hr weeks to live a carefree life with your friends, with actually doing that by starting a local context together with your friends. * most of the solutions are cold-climate solutions (e.g. usable in scandinavia) which are a woefully under-exposed living condition. contrast that with relative the easiness of living off-grid in hawaii with the high temperatures year round. * only heat up the area around where you are * incadescent lighting is usable for heating your actively used environment, contrasted with LED which doesn’t produce waste. think of using incadescent as using both aspects of the lamp (light AND heat) * **heat the individual not the house** * example: at this person from the book has a desk, heats directly underneath him and saves the heat by using a drape around him and the heater * black water: comes from you (poo, piss) * grey water: what comes as a byproduct of your use, like sanon2696444391ering or doing the dishes. in the book they make use of the greywater in growing their own food * whole section of the book on finances in this context * have recurring revenue / passive income * staltz: in order to build something, you have to have some kind of surplus * staltz: interested in and preparing for hydroponics. with an aim at getting the skills for it, and to replace a portion of his family’s consumed food with his own grown food * malmö hydroponic’s lab; ask daniel * back to the book: * refers jacob fisker’s ideas of FIRE fame: financial independence, retire early * BEER plan: variation of FIRE * what worked well with investing according to FIRE: not caring about risk, disassociating yourself from what the media sells * permaculture really deals with planning well in the beginning * deciding what makes sense for the area and for its climate / local context * microclimate: your immediate local context; you live by the sea, which cools your house. context can differ with as anon2488317424 as 10km away. * look at what worked traditionally in your local context; what were the people who lived there before eating and doing to cultivate the land. your ancestors or the original peoples of the land * anon2696444391 to dial down the drama: * take away from the eco scale: * uses extreme early retirement example, your only able to handle two levels of magnitude around you. buy within your current income range * similarly: you can plan permaculture in the same way. there is conflict in the contact between the person who knows more and the person who knows a anon2488317424. there needs to be a bit of conscious sympathy invested when people who are many magnitude of difference in ability. be conscious of the strain in these interactions * the book really strives to make the point that you shouldn’t have to live ascetically; you can live really well, luxirously * random book recommendation: bullshit jobs *invested capital* / *rate of return* = total value over time i.e. anon2696444391 to sum annuity e.g. 100 dollars / 0.05 = 2000 dollars" 2,66935,2019-12-04T22:52:16.078Z,12079,1,14,13,1,1,0,42.8,66682,anon3379761435,anon2868057530,"[quote=""anon2868057530, post:1, topic:12079""] heat the individual not the house [/quote] @anon3197437925 has done anon2373157426 some resource on this, and is experimenting various solutions on himself. Gearing up for more experimentation at #earthos:the-reef, our co-living space." 3,66937,2019-12-04T23:22:57.584Z,12079,0,14,13,1,0,0,52.8,66935,anon2868057530,anon3379761435,"@anon3379761435 and @anon3197437925 — this is a link to a [video](https://www.treehugger.com/energy-efficiency/cut-your-heating-bill-half-heat-person-not-house-video.html) the author has made with regards to personal heating as mentioned above. This is in a similar vein as some of the ideas from *lowtechmagazine* with a colder climate twist. Thanks for pointing me to the *reef* — while I didn't touch on this topic during my part of the talk, there is some content with regards to co living with 20 others that might be suitable to that circumstance." 4,67660,2019-12-17T14:56:15.595Z,12079,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,66682,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"As a followup; and related to these points: * refers jacob fisker’s ideas of FIRE fame: financial independence, retire early * BEER plan: variation of FIRE Both the above points were discussed in length in the referenced permaculture book; and this is a clarification/closeout post to an item that was discussed in the session; but not recorded in the minutes. One of the discussions that was had during the permaculture talk at re:web was the discussion on hedging for climate change; financially. This means having a cover for the impacts, and investing suitably against this by allocating investment decisions accordingly. *I wasn’t sure about a solution at the time, and was a bit challenged that I hadn't considered this :smile:* With recent discussions on AMZN and other single stocks on ssb; I was inspired to see if this was already a discussed problem, in keeping with the benefits of diversity afforded by index investing in reducing some of the risks obtained by placing money into public markets. *note: entertainment use only, do not drive after reading, not investment advice, etc…* So a quick google I came up to this [swedish 2015 paper](https://www.ap4.se/globalassets/dokument/rapportarkiv/ovriga-rapporterdok/hedging-climate-risk.pdf) on hedging climate risks by excluding the more CO2 intensive companies. By accepting a small tracking error from the parent index, you can achieve significant CO2 reduction on the portfolios economic activities. From the graph below it suggests that it might be possible to reduce the intensity while keeping track of the index, in a similar way that “perfect is the enemy of good“ where you may not get to 100%; but a small change can get you to 50% anon2373157426 easily with not a lot of drama. ![55%20PM|689x410](upload://4ZLgqpkaEyvQs2DDeRgUXAVMA7t.png) *Linking to possible etf is an exercise best left to the reader…*" 5,67722,2019-12-18T17:41:39.434Z,12079,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,66682,anon1732761404,anon2868057530,Is Zenna (1993) published anywhere on the internet? 6,67724,2019-12-18T17:51:38.436Z,12079,1,9,8,1,0,0,41.8,66682,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"@anon1732761404 — Ooops, that wasn't clear. What is being referred to is @anon2682865457 – aka Zenna – who was providing background to the solar punk literature. I don't recall which book she referred to, I'll ask on scuttlebutt; and she'll see this also!" 7,67756,2019-12-19T12:03:46.081Z,12079,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,67724,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"@anon1732761404 — the crowdsourcing on scuttlebutt probably worked, I think… A fine person there (@anon > [The Fifth Sacred Thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Sacred_Thing) (1993) by [Starhawk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starhawk) – A [post-apocalyptic novel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_and_post-apocalyptic_science_fiction) depicting two societies, one a [sustainable economy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_economy) based on social justice, and its neighbor, a militaristic and intolerant [theocracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy) is the book @anon2682865457 referred to. As (@anon" 8,79588,2020-06-25T14:34:37.507Z,12079,0,5,4,1,0,0,21.0,66682,anon1753543892,anon2868057530,"another solarpunk festival in sweden: https://forum.blanon2066456771de.com/t/solarpunk-in-stockholm-solaris/1205" 1,59289,2019-09-14T16:52:57.592Z,10775,0,32,31,41,0,0,261.4,59289,anon3828707713,anon3828707713," A while ago @anon2616197748 mentioned that he keeps getting asked by fellow technologists who are concerned about climate change, environmental degradation and a bunch of other issues I am bundling under ""Earth Systems Emergencies"". They, like many of us, want to do something - but don't know what they can contribute, where they can do it or even anon2696444391 to begin to find their way. Whether you don’t know what to do about climate change or ecological breakdown (where to start, or anon2696444391 to contribute to reversing it) or you’ve hit the “glass ceiling” of activism (being burned out or feeling like you’re not moving forward), your thoughts and ideas collectively, will actually help find a suitable set of actions. Here’s anon2696444391 we’ll do it: * Create a holistic overview of what people within our extended networks are doing * See what gaps need to be worked on * Make a map of different paths that individuals can take from where they are (geography, skills, interests, etc) to where they can make a meaningful contribution. These are the next steps: 1. Collective enquiry: Get a number of people who are working on something related to environmental problems to share what they are doing and their experiences so far. Community managers and community members ask questions to get a deeper understanding of what each person needs and what they can offer. 2. Collaborative analysis: We use the anon1577251828 method and stack of open source software for processing large numbers of smaller conversations and connecting the dots across them so we get a bigger picture, and can see clusters emerge and anon2696444391 they are related. 3. Connect people, projects and places: We use the semantic social network visualisation as a tool to matchmake participants over shared interests based on what they need, and what they wish to offer. as a thank you to people who contributed to the conversation. 4. Cocreate a **professional matchmaking and coaching ** solution for mission oriented people. We come together at a workshop during the festival. In it we use what we have learned learnings int a tool that individuals can use to help them find their way to where they can make the most impact. And make meaningful connections between people who can help one another to get there. The good news is that it is totally doable. In fact, it is already in motion - all we need is to grow what is already happening! Over the past months, several conversations have emerged around anon2696444391 we live and work in response to different facets of the same underlying problem: Stresses to the The Earth System. Some people like @anon3592950533 and @anon Others are looking for solutions that are closest to them. @anon2670920295 and Tristan's incubator for open source solutions to environmental problems is an example. Also @anon294806887 and @anon3379761435 are tackling it on a professional level in part through the work they are leading in Edgeryders climate unit, but also at home through the co-living experiment they have been running which they are now scaling up with the reef. @anon3197437925 is at the faaaaaaar (ahead) end in anon2696444391 he closely his everyday life and values and work are aligned around this (Inge wrote about [Matt's story here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/this-cto-has-lived-off-the-grid-in-his-truck-for-several-years-here-s-why/10801)). Chris working on getting tech companies and technologies who build things for them to take measures like switching to renewable energy sources. @anon2902027682 's work on reducing electronic waste @anon You can also find people doing work on rewiring relationships by changing anon2696444391 information and resources flow as a tool to drive change. For me mobilising and coordinating protests as well as building infrastructures and processes for decentralisation, or pushing for better policy to help places, organisations, movement and ultimately citizens be more resilient to shocks in the system. I would say, @anon Or there’s Ramy, @anon But, making the transition from one to the other is not a given, or even finding your way to them. Once individuals find your way there, the cost on the person running the initiative (who is often under-resourced) to help onboard you is also demanding. **what is a sustainable mechanism to help people find their way to contribute?**. This is something I have been thinking about a lot lately. Also as I rethink my own personal role in contributing/detracting from transition towards decarbonised futures. A Possible process for figuring this out together: * Online storytelling (video chat, transcribe + Post on platform) + Q&A (comments), * Tagging & Visualisation (ethnographic coding, network analysis - SSNA visuals), * One on one calls (campaign: point us to someone doing relevant work - ask RSA for help too) * Q & A in spurt (like AMA hour) * Workshop ( present findings & co-design) * Tactical tech call for partnerships? * Coact lab residency (build)
### What are your thoughts on this? It would be super helpful to have more people think out loud about this together as it is a tough one to crack! **image credit:** Luc Schuiten" 3,59355,2019-09-16T10:11:32.689Z,10775,0,20,19,1,0,0,24.0,1,anon3828707713,anon2945747231,"thank you, added it!" 4,59534,2019-09-17T22:48:43.881Z,10775,1,21,20,1,0,0,59.2,59289,anon2157212760,anon3828707713,"Hey lovely people, since many of you don't know anon2696444391 to contribute their gifts.. Extinction Rebellion is looking for really every kind of person, also tech people all over the world especially now, since the next Rebellion Wave starts at 7th of Octobre. Really hope this information helps. on their website you can find volunteer requests and local working groups..just send a mail to them. with love & planetary care, anon2157212760" 5,59537,2019-09-18T06:28:57.755Z,10775,0,22,21,2,0,0,14.4,59534,anon3828707713,anon2157212760,"Hi anon2157212760, thanks for this! This is the URL you mean, right? https://rebellion.earth/ Did you see @anon3352795496 proposal for a workshop? They wont be running it during the festival because they are organising protests in the UK but maybe you would find it interesting if we do it later? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-tech-workshop/10191" 6,59547,2019-09-18T09:09:53.885Z,10775,0,30,29,1,0,0,41.0,59289,anon2157212760,anon3828707713,yes..but there are also websites for different countries in case one wants to find a place. it's a self organized system. I'm not a tech person but found a great opportunity to share my very personal gifts/what I love for a better future.. and hope others do too <3 7,60364,2019-10-02T06:52:57.598Z,10775,4,29,28,15,0,0,145.8,59289,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"
During yesterday's community call around deep green tech @anon2616197748 @anon1753543892 @anon2945747231 @anon850704935 @anon3203746736 @anon3197437925 we discussed an idea to do in the run up to an upcoming decentralised festival Edgeryders in different parts of the world are organising together. To do a series of **solarpunk conversations**: video chats where people who live where technology and ecology meet, share and discover one another's personal stories. We record these conversations and participants use the transcripts to create their own thoughtful posts that can spark a different kind of conversation around personal journeys into a viable future. What do you guys think about this @anon2682865457 @anon2157212760 @anon Also reaching out to the EarthOs crowd ahead of the Economics Scifi seminar in November and the Reef deep prototype we are building in Brussels: @anon659222949 @anon3379761435 @anon294806887 @anon3822657227 @anon3760286857 @anon" 8,60367,2019-10-02T07:18:14.013Z,10775,1,28,27,1,0,0,60.6,59289,anon2719157517,anon3828707713,"I'm incredibly happy that my discovery of solarpunk turned out to be such an informative thing for this community :D Atm I have too much damage going on around poprebel to devote my time for this before November. But, if you'd consider it as a slower, well-researched and well-prepared series, then I'd be down - and I have some names I could def try to convince to join us. I was also considering organising something like Futuristic Congress of Utopias (based on Lem's novel, but, you know, with a better ending) in the frame of the Endlich festival, and I am still considering doing it next year, in the spring. So depending on anon2696444391 fast you want this to start - or rather, if there's no huge rush - I would be interested in developing a frame for it and getting some funding to produce and document it, and we could have it in collaboration with the Experimentelles Zukunfstlabor in one of the abandoned, industrial sites in Berlin :) That would greatly fit the intent, but also broaden the scope of future scenarios also out of the tech-focus." 9,60371,2019-10-02T07:35:40.684Z,10775,1,27,26,1,0,0,45.4,60367,anon3828707713,anon2719157517,@anon1134869991 might be interested in that too 10,60383,2019-10-02T08:19:50.349Z,10775,0,23,22,1,0,0,39.6,60364,anon294806887,anon3828707713,"Happy to host one as this would be the kind of inspiration we'd need for The Reef community and ahead of the end of the year. With @anon3197437925 we are looking to host a technical idea sprint for green buildings in Brussels where some of the people in this space could join in a live IRL conversation. The outcome would be a documented set of soft knowledge and technology for living solarpunk. If we know who is interested to join a process of online conversations + meetup, we could set some money aside from The Reef project and make it happen." 11,60412,2019-10-02T12:42:39.431Z,10775,0,21,20,1,0,0,54.2,59289,anon2201458628,anon3828707713,"I’m up for a discussion. My focus right now is more Myco-punk - transformation at ground level. Learning from natural systems rather than coming from high tech perspective. I’m more interested in growing trees into buildings than growing trees on buildings. From Trash to Food and Habitat. Telling stories through actions and material manifestation rather idea realm (which i’m Myself strongly biases towards - but the longer I play in the dirt the more I realize the importance to plant roots deep before reaching for the sky)" 12,60444,2019-10-02T21:42:26.213Z,10775,0,17,16,1,0,0,53.4,59289,anon2616197748,anon3828707713,"Hey folks, I totally forgot anon2696444391 confusing Secure Scuttlebutt can be if you're new to it but we had at least one person ask about anon2696444391 to start using Patchwork to, join the solarpunk community on there. This guide below is pretty good to start out with, to understand what secure scuttlebutt is. https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/getting-started.html It's not the web, but has a few really interesting ideas. ### Joining the solarpunk ""pub"" to get regular updates Once you've run through those steps you'll need to visit this site here to request an invite code. https://solarpunk.network/ Once you have that, stuff that's shared to that solarpunk ""pub"", will then be shared to you, using the gossip-y protocol that secure scuttlebutt uses, instead of a centralised webserver for sharing content. Sorry i don't have more detailed instructions than that - I use it occasionally, but I generally don't use it anywhere as much as regular web tools." 13,60479,2019-10-03T09:10:50.992Z,10775,0,16,15,1,0,0,68.2,60364,anon2568946961,anon3828707713,Could be interested in contributing to a solar punk conversation etc. 14,60610,2019-10-03T18:41:44.419Z,10775,0,15,14,1,0,0,38.0,60371,anon1134869991,anon3828707713,"He would indeed! I need to move some large projects off my plate to let me rededicate time to ER projects. It feels like 2020 might be the year for that. My experiment with standing in one place in Bedford has yielded mixed results." 15,60764,2019-10-06T14:58:50.254Z,10775,0,13,12,1,0,0,52.6,60364,anon388720932,anon3828707713,great idea! i can contribute with finding and recording one story! 16,61356,2019-10-14T23:35:40.555Z,10775,0,10,9,1,0,0,37.0,59289,anon1679055112,anon3828707713,"Right now I am feeling overwhelmed with the quantity of things I am involved in but I am definitely interested in the topic. If I can I will join the conversation or at least follow anon2696444391 it is developing. Hopefully I will be able to join as of end February next year in a more meaningful way. Next year already I will be building something like a touristic eco-village with few partners, or we might get the land and take care of all paperwork in 2020 but start building early in 2021. In any case, I plan on applying sustainable development principles/tech on it (solar panels for electricity/heating, collecting rain water+filtering it naturally in a closed system for example). Also experimenting in it with permaculture or more efficient ways to do agriculture like vertical gardens, having natural self filtering swimming pools, using bio waste to create compost and fertilise etc etc...many practical ways to contribute to the ecosystem. It will also be designed in such a way to encourage human interaction and connection with nature. Of course my partners will have to be on board :slight_smile: , but that's my intention." 17,79582,2020-06-25T14:11:46.421Z,10775,0,5,4,1,1,0,21.0,60364,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:7, topic:10775""] To do a series of **solarpunk conversations** : video chats where people who live where technology and ecology meet, share and discover one another’s personal stories. We record these conversations and participants use the transcripts to create their own thoughtful posts that can spark a different kind of conversation around personal journeys into a viable future. [/quote] Blanon2066456771de community member just posted this about a solarpunk festival in Stockholm: https://forum.blanon2066456771de.com/t/solarpunk-in-stockholm-solaris/1205" 1,79104,2020-06-17T21:15:35.809Z,13903,0,9,8,6,0,0,46.8,79104,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"The use of facial recognition technology is growing, for better or worse." 2,79105,2020-06-17T21:16:57.431Z,13903,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,79104,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Here John Oliver explains better than probably any of us could, why this trend needs us to make some decisions about anon2696444391 it should be managed. Oliver covers the waterfront and has some hilarious zanon2945747231rs in this video essay and makes me wish the E.C. could consider no issue unless they view something like this for each one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZjmlJPJgug" 3,79106,2020-06-17T22:06:22.139Z,13903,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,79105,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"In one example in the pice he sanon2696444391s this area in London that announced to you in public that it was taking your photo for purposes of facial recognition. One guy covered his face up over his mouth with his T shirt and the police stopped him and made his stand for them to take his picture, and then they fined him 90 pounds. So this is public policy in London now? You either accept profiling or you get fined?" 1,65602,2019-11-25T09:23:45.121Z,11869,1,10,9,3,0,0,52.0,65602,anon3992156183,anon3992156183,"**Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at Internetdagarna?** I work as a senior officer at Lärarförbundet, the Swedish teachers union. I am responsible for digitalisation in schools. Currently, we are mostly talking about digitalisation in school as a work environment issue, anon2696444391 digital systems can both, disturb and help the work environment. A lot of the systems you are supposed to use actually disturb the teaching and we want to see anon2696444391 we can change that. How the teachers can be the change agents for deciding what to use and what not to use based on good information. **When did something related to the internet last make you hopefull or happy?** At the moment I am just looking at the really bad examples, I am here, at Internetdagarna today to find good examples. Currently, we see a lot of bad examples. **When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** There is this Swedish research Institute IFAU they are about to release a study on the 1to1 solution (each student and teacher gets a computer) and the study sanon2696444391s that it has no effect at all. The municipalities used a lot of money to finance those devices and that budget could have been spent much better. **name:** anon3992156183" 2,65605,2019-11-25T09:29:00.887Z,11869,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,65602,anon1753543892,anon3992156183,"@anon3992156183, great to have you here! We are looking forward to discussing the findings and topics of the workshop with you and see anon2696444391 we can collaborate and inspire in the future: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881 @anon3005461236 organises the Teaching Teachers open-source workshop and @anon3992156183 is responsible for digitalisation at the Swedish teachers union. I am sure there will be some interesting exchange here!" 3,65758,2019-11-25T19:15:39.701Z,11869,0,6,5,1,1,0,6.2,65605,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:2, topic:11869""] @anon3992156183, great to have you here! We are looking forward to discussing the findings and topics of the workshop with you and see anon2696444391 we can collaborate and inspire in the future: ![|20x20](/user_avatar/anon1577251828.eu/anon3005461236/40/10728_2.png) [Teaching Teachers Open Source](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881) [Tell Us About You](/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you) [/quote] Hello @anon3992156183, hej. Det vore fantastiskt om vi kunde etablera en kontakt med dig. Vi skulle behöva veta hur vi når ut till lärare i stort och vilka andra arbeten som kan påverkas av oss som vill förändra digitaliseranon2945747231n till att inrikta sig på fri och öppen mjukvara. Jag har jobbat för detta i över ett decennium och att nå ut till lärare är oerhört viktigt. Hur kan vi etablera en kontakt med dig?" 4,67111,2019-12-06T18:20:31.848Z,11869,1,5,4,1,1,0,41.0,65602,anon1732761404,anon3992156183,"[quote=""anon3992156183, post:1, topic:11869""] **When did something related to the internet last make you hopefull or happy?** At the moment I am just looking at the really bad examples, I am here, at Internetdagarna today to find good examples. Currently, we see a lot of bad examples. [/quote] I have a perhaps helpful reflection that I know I am not the first to have made: Digitalization and computer systems lend themselves to centralized decisions, and this was the most aggressive charge leveraged against computerization in the 1960s and 1970s. The Skolverket might, for instance, decide to create an application service for high school for 14 year olds to facilitate the administration of applications under the fria skolval. However, what ends up happening is that parents and kids turn to teachers with questions about the interface and application process, in spite of teachers being far away both from the process of designing the interface and not being responsible for the application process either. So while for Skolverket the centralized system for applications under the fria skolval is indeed a time-saver that enables efficiency, for the individual teachers it becomes a time-hog since they have to spend time explaining to individual students/parents systems that they are not well-placed to understand or explain. It sub-optimizes by creating an easily measurable ""central"" advantage that translates into a more difficult to measure ""decentral"" disadvantage (see also @anon3828707713 's 4th principle here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/5-new-principles-for-justice-in-the-age-of-ai-and-other-networked-technologies/12117/3 ) I think there has been research on this at Linköping university, by Elin Wihlborg: https://liu.se/en/employee/eliwi01" 5,78996,2020-06-16T18:15:20.414Z,11869,0,4,3,1,1,0,20.8,67111,anon3379761435,anon1732761404,"[quote=""anon1732761404, post:4, topic:11869""] So while for Skolverket the centralized system for applications under the fria skolval is indeed a time-saver that enables efficiency, for the individual teachers it becomes a time-hog since they have to spend time explaining to individual students/parents systems that they are not well-placed to understand or explain. It sub-optimizes by creating an easily measurable “central” advantage that translates into a more difficult to measure “decentral” disadvantage (see also @anon3828707713 's 4th principle here: [5 New Principles for Justice in the age of AI (and other networked technologies)?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/5-new-principles-for-justice-in-the-age-of-ai-and-other-networked-technologies/12117/3) ) [/quote] This is profound, @anon1732761404 – and thanks to @anon3992156183 for bringing it up (welcome Linnea, sorry for noticing your post so late!). And it seems fundamental, not related to the Internet at all. In [Seeing like a state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State), James Scott has this very interesting observation that administrative ordering tends to overextend. And when it does, someone else gets dumped with the price to pay. The context of this observation is urban planning, and in particular the city of Brasilia, built from the ground up as a high modernist project. What happened there is that the ""rational"" city designed by Niemeyer could not function as a city, because it had no cheap accommodation, no street food, no hangouts etc. And so, promptly, favelas arose, to host the workers that were building the official Brasilia, and to perform the essential services that a city must provide, but that become incredibly difficult to produce under too strict and administrative grid. He puts it this way: the informal city *underwrites* the formal one, just like the teachers underwrite Skolverket's new system for applications." 1,72447,2020-03-25T12:58:04.797Z,12971,2,52,51,825,0,0,4337.4,72447,anon3379761435,anon3379761435," I have been online since 1992 – hell, I practically *lived* online most of these 30 years. What drew me to the Internet was not the presence of shiny, easy-to-use, free services – they were not there in the early days. On the contrary, you had to put in time and money if you wanted to, as we said then, ""connect to the Internet"". But the reward was high. *Whatever your tribe, you would find it*. Whether you cared about particle physics, detective stories or board games, countless like-minded people were waiting for you ""out there"". And yes, you would occasionally encounter conflict and rants, but they would be overwhelmed by the sense of being welcome, of belonging. For me – a bookish, weird kid from an Italian small town, who was into weird music, it was a lifeline. But, of course, it was not about me. The sense of community was pervasive, generalized. > My direct observations of online behaviour around the world over the past ten years have led me to conclude that whenever computer-mediated communications technology becomes available to people anywhere, they inevitably build virtual communities with it, just as microorganisms inevitably create colonies. These words were written by @anon2696444391ard_rheingold in 1994, in a seminal book called *[The Virtual Community](https://books.google.be/books?id=fr8bdUDisqAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=rheingold+virtual+community&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0_MaQsa7oAhXHMewKHffIBlAQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=rheingold%20virtual%20community&f=false)*. In the intervening years, anon2696444391ever, some of that sense of community has been lost. Some American computer networks had been offering commercial services since the late 1980s; in 1992, US Congress pass a law that allowed the academic NSFNET, to connect to those commercial networks, and the latter to use NSFNET as their infrastructural backbone. Seven years later, the dotcom boom sanon2696444391ed everyone the money-making potential of the Internet. The original ""digital settlers"" described by Howard's book were still out there, but increasingly drowned out by corporate types. The idea itself of virtual community gave way to that of social networking service (Facebook and similar), and the communitarian early Internet of the 1990s to the surveillance capitalist one of today. Then COVID-19 hit. Suddenly, everyone's social media feed is full of bottom-up, self-organized initiatives for mutual aid. Everyone is releasing previously paywalled content, offering help, creating resources and directories. Is the communitarian Internet back? The question is important, because Edgeryders considers itself a virtual community, one of the last of the original, early wave virtual communities. We were born as a response to the previous crisis, the 2008 financial collapse. In the wake of COVID-19, we are mobilizing, just like everybody else ([example](/t/12962), [other example](/t/12886)). But: are we doing enough? Are we making the right moves? The right person to ask is obviously Howard himself. He and @anon3203746736 are old friends, so I asked John to ask Howard if he would agree to a video call between the three of us. He did, and just like that we were conversing across an ocean and eight time zones. ### On coordinating and integrating the community's response @anon2696444391ard_rheingold: > Have you guys thought of taking on the work of coordinating between large organizations and this patchwork of initiatives that are popping up in response to COVID-19? @anon3379761435 > Yes, but we struggle. Everyone is shouting for attention. And what you call greenspaces (nice name, by the way!) seem mostly hyperlocal, ephemeral – they are out there, but I do not see them connecting. No one is keeping track of the big picture. @anon2696444391ard_rheingold: > Right now, people are super focused on just doing the job. I would suggest to compile a list of things that are happening, putting it online, and then inviting everyone to meet others. Point to something, and tell people ""Look, we can get together and help each other!"" > > I know it sounds difficult. It is. But look: with COVID-19, this is the first time that everyone on Earth is thinking about the same thing. Additionally, everyone is closer to each other because everyone is online. We now see people organizing Zoom calls with their friends. > > And note this: this is all happening two years into a backlash against ""big tech"", when people – at least here in America – are starting to regard Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple and Facebook with suspicion and even fear. There is again some space for doing good online. We can take back the Internet! The start of a network, of an online community is very much like what we are doing here, the three of us having a Zoom call. We look at our computer screen, and see people. Hey, it's people! I see their faces! We are all doing it anyway because of the pandemic, let's maintain this greenspace online, these convivial spaces. Note that some of it is not even on the web, but on the indieweb – spaces like [Scuttlebutt](/t/9802), that run their own protocols. ### On helping folks to bringing work online Howard thinks the COVID-19 fallout offers an opportunity to rethink the way we collaborate in our daily work. > I have been working for a few years on the idea of remote working. I see the COVID epidemics as a force that could accelerate a societal shift that we should do anyway, for the sake of climate change. An *idée fixe* of Howard's is [move conferences online](https://www.patreon.com/posts/anon2696444391-to-plan-and-34594233). Just [like ourselves](/t/11263), he got interested in it mostly because large international conferences have a large climate impact. Of course, this is not at all easy, and requires effort; but suddenly, from lockdown, we are discovering that it might be possible after all. A similar advance is happening in the world of online learning (again, Howard was one the pioneers of this), as schools and universities bend over backwards to reach out to locked-down students. > You could be bringing orgs to remote work. In my experience, most people doing it have an approach oriented to deploying tools, typically chosen by some IT department. They miss completely the human and social dimension of working online. Community managers have existed for almost 40 years – actually John, here, was the person who first used the expression ""community manager""! They are key to getting humans to work together well online, but they are typically excluded from the corporate world. Helping people to work online is super powerful, because it increases manifold the efficiency of their organizations. @anon2696444391ard_rheingold: > This is a historical transition. I predict that, at the end, medical/scientific work will be enormously accelerated by this connectivity. @anon3203746736: > Howard, do you think that Slack is a complete solution to online collaboration? @anon2696444391ard_rheingold: > No, I do not. Slack is good at coordination, but not at accumulating/organizing knowledge. For that you need a forum. Also, in general, different people are comfortable with different media. So, a mix of media is needed. Like now we are talking on videoconference, then I suppose someone will do a writeup of it, and so on. That is a good thing. @anon3379761435: > ... though then curation becomes even more important, both human curation (community management) and content curation (wikis, documentation etc.). Very easy to lose the overview of a workstream that happens in many different spaces. In Edgeryders we have found nothing better than a combination of recaps (written, as posts in the forum) and periodic (virtual) team meetings. (*Photo: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HowardRheingoldJI4.jpg*)" 2,72465,2020-03-25T16:02:20.140Z,12971,0,34,33,1,0,0,41.8,72447,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"Part of the challenge for businesses and organizations who could shift a lot of their work online but are struggling to accomplish it, or aren't even trying, are ""last mile"" issues. In other words, what, from this assortment of tools, are the ones you need to accomplish what you need to get done? Forum, live chat, A/V for individual or group, document and file sharing, editing up/downloading, legal online signatures and so forth. And then there are everyone's ingrained habits to overcome." 3,72470,2020-03-25T16:45:26.960Z,12971,0,34,33,3,0,0,81.8,72447,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,I noticed an uptick in conversations on [The WELL](https://www.well.com) including some old-timers returning after long absences explaining that they place higher trust in the quality of the information they will get there. 4,72485,2020-03-25T18:41:34.000Z,12971,0,34,33,1,0,0,41.8,72447,anon2840382650,anon3379761435,"Good work, Alberto. Howard Rheingold ---- follow on Twitter: @anon My complete works: [rheingold.com](http://rheingold.com) SUPPORT ME and get a juicy flow of knowledge and art on [patreon.com/anon2696444391ardrheingold](http://patreon.com/anon2696444391ardrheingold) what it is ---> is --->up to us" 5,72498,2020-03-25T20:52:48.333Z,12971,1,32,31,3,0,0,26.4,72447,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"Hey @anon2696444391ard_rheingold :slight_smile: We've been running a small scale attempt at what you propose above. Just setting up a flagpole and taking on the role of chorephraphers/djs for whatever comes out of it. It's a fluid experience - I thought we would need a lot more to get it going... 1. First this: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/do-you-want-to-join-our-covid19-community-response-a-breakdown-of-anon1577251828-activities-roles-tasks-and-workflows/12879/68 2. Then do a video call: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/weekly-covid2019-community-response-call/12920/9 3. Post documentation and ping people: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-did-we-discuss-during-the-covid19-community-response-call-1-what-will-we-do-next/12945/28 Is this the kind of thing you had in mind?" 6,72501,2020-03-25T21:26:19.000Z,12971,2,29,28,1,0,0,65.8,72498,anon2840382650,anon3828707713,"Nadia, that is what I had in mind. I would add that a good question would be “What can we do to help your organization and to help grow a network of mutual aid efforts?” (I tried to answer this in the forum, but I got the “answer these two questions” response to my attempt to post, but after I answered the questions, I still wasn’t able to reply, even though I was logged in.) Howard Rheingold" 7,72502,2020-03-25T21:39:25.575Z,12971,1,30,29,1,0,0,16.0,72501,anon3828707713,anon2840382650," Cool! will carry that into the next call out. Hey @anon3197437925 do you have any idea what might have happened when Howard tried to post? See 👆" 9,72507,2020-03-25T22:20:49.654Z,12971,0,31,30,1,1,0,26.2,72502,anon3197437925,anon3828707713,"This is just to solve a technical issue for Howard: [quote=""anon2696444391ard_rheingold, post:6, topic:12971""](I tried to answer this in the forum, but I got the “answer these two questions” response to my attempt to post, but after I answered the questions, I still wasn’t able to reply, even though I was logged in.)[/quote] Howard, I think you ran into an issue with our so-called ethical consent funnel required for our research work. I tried to reproduce the issue under your account, but couldn't. I don't want to pester you about more details, so as a quick solution I just completed that consent funnel form for you (since you said you had already answered the questions … means, it's ""ethically ok"" ;) ). **tl;dr** Welcome to post on the forum now. You won't see that issue again." 10,72701,2020-03-27T14:41:02.343Z,12971,1,29,28,1,1,0,60.8,72447,anon2360576655,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:12971""] This is a historical transition. I predict that, at the end, medical/scientific work will be enormously accelerated by this connectivity. [/quote] Speaking of this, I found out about this interesting project that's working to create an **open-source COVID-19 test kit**, work carried out online on this platform [Just One Giant Lab (JOGL)](https://app.jogl.io/project/118). I didn't know it, but it seems legit to me... I am no biologist, nor a project manager, but I meant to share this opportunity with Edgeryders in case there is someone here that could help and is interested in sparing some time. Maybe you, @anon294806887 or @anon1753543892 could ping the relevant people?" 11,72703,2020-03-27T14:57:48.017Z,12971,0,26,25,1,0,0,40.2,72701,anon1753543892,anon2360576655,"ping @anon3005461236, @anon3214242932, @anon2197402769, @anon2786360199, @anon2868057530 does this look like an opensource project you or some people you know might be interested in?" 12,72795,2020-03-29T06:17:18.302Z,12971,1,21,20,0,0,0,24.2,72447,anon2863106368,anon3379761435,"Great that this conversation has taken place. Great to see you here @anon2696444391ard_rheingold ! @anon3203746736 mentioned an uptick in interaction at The Well. Is Brainstorms still around Howard? Do you see an uptick there too (I haven't been in Brainstorms in ages). Two observations I made in the past few weeks that touch upon this conversation. 1) Yes there is a long list of unconnected initiatives out there currently. Looking at a range of them here in the Netherlands, while some seem to have some substance, many others seem more a coping strategy that keeps one busy but has no impact or meaning on the originator's scope of action or anyone else's agency. Kind of like the way I keep a spreadsheet with case numbers in NL, providing a sense of control or something, but then announcing it to the world as yet another Covid dashboard for coders and designers to contribute to. At the same time initiatives that might have a real impact are invisible and never mentioned online unless they become visible once creating such impact. (e.g. my brother in law's 3d printer company has approached all businesses and factories that use their printers to donate printing capacity, creating a global networked printing facility, and now discussing with manufacturers (like Phillips) and health ministries anon2696444391 to deploy that network to print respirator parts and masks where needed. It won't be publicly announced as a bottom-up initiative, and it may not be publicly mentioned at all ever.) How do we filter wheat and chaff on a list of initiatives, or do we have a role in guiding others to potentially more meaningful activities and away from the coping projects like my spreadsheet/ other's shiny dashboards? 2) On working from home en masse. Most of my work is with government entities. A common tactic for people is to wait with doing something and ignore emails etc until the requester sanon2696444391s up at your desk asking about it . That escalation path is no longer available, sanon2696444391ing up at one's desk. As a result I see some civil servants withdraw on an island of clearly defined tasks, simply not responding to mails,calls etc about any other topic. A withdrawal. This means that all kinds of activities that depend on weaving together different acts by different parts of an organisation have more trouble building the connections and getting things done. This impacts precisely the type projects (around digital transformation, deploying new remote working tools, running experiments etc.) that would be of more interest now than before the current situation. Something to find a way of dealing with." 13,72798,2020-03-29T08:46:03.544Z,12971,2,21,20,3,1,0,29.2,72795,anon3379761435,anon2863106368,"[quote=""anon2863106368, post:12, topic:12971""] At the same time initiatives that might have a real impact are invisible and never mentioned online unless they become visible once creating such impact [/quote] Great point. Anecdotally, I too am seeing people reaching out through personal networks. A lot is going on behind the curtains. In my case, it's mostly systemic reflections in view of what comes next, but more practical people like your brother-in-law seems to be be will be taking action. Another example of action, which I would like to document next week, is @anon3554654177's initiative of spawning a disposable identity scheme to keep track of your susceptible-infected-recovered state. [quote=""anon2863106368, post:12, topic:12971""] As a result I see some civil servants withdraw on an island of clearly defined tasks, simply not responding to mails,calls etc about any other topic. A withdrawal. This means that all kinds of activities that depend on weaving together different acts by different parts of an organisation have more trouble building the connections and getting things done. This impacts precisely the type projects (around digital transformation, deploying new remote working tools, running experiments etc.) that would be of more interest now than before the current situation. [/quote] Also a great point. I wonder if anyone has any evidence in support or to the contrary of it?" 14,72802,2020-03-29T10:02:57.538Z,12971,1,20,19,1,0,0,29.0,72798,anon2863106368,anon3379761435,"Btw, here's a group of people, started by some friends of mine, collecting/pooling resources / experience on doing facilitation for groups/teams now coming online due to lockdowns https://groups.io/g/f4c-response/" 15,72803,2020-03-29T10:09:36.909Z,12971,1,21,20,1,1,0,14.2,72802,anon3828707713,anon2863106368,"Hey Ton, anon2696444391 are you + fam doing? [quote=""anon2863106368, post:14, topic:12971""] https://groups.io/g/f4c-response/ [/quote] this is super interesting @anon2863106368, do you think you could put us in touch? Would be nice to have a quick video chat to see anon2696444391 we can support their efforts ahead of this going public (still needs a bit of work on copy, broken links etc ): https://work.anon1577251828.eu/" 16,72805,2020-03-29T10:24:44.467Z,12971,0,21,20,1,0,0,24.2,72803,anon2863106368,anon3828707713,"Doing ok (see https://www.zylstra.org/blog/2020/03/lock-down-seeking-new-normal-yet-still-tempus-fugit/ ) Sure, I can put you in touch with Nancy White (although she's on US west coast time) and Beverly Trayner (who I think is currently in Portugal, so more or less on local time :slight_smile: ) Sent you an intro e-mail." 17,72806,2020-03-29T11:29:49.205Z,12971,1,21,20,1,0,0,29.2,72798,anon377726023,anon3379761435,"This civil servants point seems like scenario where there is not a sense of purpose that connects people and gives agency. I do not have evidence of the contrary in government situations. Yet as my reply implies, it is clear anon2696444391 to avoid these scenario's. I'm sure you know this too. Do you see groups working on that in parallel to their everyday work? Wouldn't it take time to see the effects?" 18,72826,2020-03-29T15:11:57.929Z,12971,1,20,19,1,0,0,14.0,72806,anon2863106368,anon377726023,"In the examples I observed it wasn't so much lack of purpose but a withdrawal to one's own defined tasks only. In part this is ok, given the situation. In part this will become an obstacle, because for a lot things / changes in an organisation depend on small amounts of time outside of those primary tasks of any given role. Remotely it is easier to simply shrug that off, which was harder to do in a f2f setting. There are scenario's around it and as time passes new balances/patterns are sure to emerge anyway. But there is not much of a path around people just not responding." 19,72948,2020-03-30T16:45:22.223Z,12971,1,19,18,1,0,0,43.8,72826,anon3203746736,anon2863106368,"My brother works in a business that interacts between state government and big project construction contractors. Up to this point it has all been paper contracts, lots of phone calls and face-to-face meetings. Now they do anon2863106368s of Zoom meetings. That's fine. But the contracts portion brings up an interesting point. Whereas many industries already use DocuSign or SignRequest to legally sign documents (we do for example with the EC) or take it a step further a la Esanon2863106368ia and their Virtual Resident program (we also do), they not only do not have any history of doing that, they are prevented by statute to have anything other than ""wet"" signatures on documents. To change legally, the law itself has to change." 20,73541,2020-04-03T15:24:15.902Z,12971,0,18,17,1,1,0,8.6,72948,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:19, topic:12971""] To change legally, the law itself has to change. [/quote] Yes, that is always a problem. The EU also had to change the law, and then member states had to incorporate that change into national laws." 21,73791,2020-04-06T16:26:33.234Z,12971,1,18,17,1,0,0,88.6,72447,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"As food for thought, here's an article from MIT Technology Review about the topic we have here. They don't have an answer if the communitarian Internet is back … but they give interesting examples of what's going on right now on the Net that *is* communitarian: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615442" 22,73938,2020-04-07T16:20:13.840Z,12971,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,73791,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,"Heartening. Especially maybe for those of us who managed to keep the faith.. Another iteration of this I enjoy is ""View from my Window"" a giant newish group on Facebook where you sanon2696444391 a pic of ...the view from your window as you maintain your distance. It's delightful." 23,78604,2020-06-10T02:11:53.459Z,12971,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,73938,anon2840382650,anon3203746736,"Phil Agre had a mailing list long ago called The Red Rock Eater. It was a broadcast list for his often very interesting thoughts. One day, he asked people to send pix of where they sat at their computer. Since then, in every online community I participate in, I've started a topic thread on ""where I sit."" If you want to see where I sit, click on this link. When you load the page, hold the mouse butanon2863106368 and drag to move around, click on the big round circles to zoom, and the smaller circles to see videos, text, links. https://my.matterport.com/sanon2696444391/?m=H7pByHtQizK" 24,78605,2020-06-10T03:27:15.369Z,12971,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,78604,anon3203746736,anon2840382650,"Splendid! It's like being there. I used to have this idea of a WELL poster that was a grid of many WELLers at their terminals. Recently, in FB there was a reunion of the Habbo teens who are all now in their late 20s and early 30s where they sanon2696444391ed each other their setups. Not so much art as you but multiple screens and good audio. Was it hard to make that 3D image? Or did someone else make it? I noticed a name with a 707 area code. I could see a lot of uses for it." 25,78709,2020-06-10T17:40:14.120Z,12971,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,78605,anon2840382650,anon3203746736,The fellow who did it lives in Lake County. His contact info is in the upper left corner. 1,66974,2019-12-05T11:17:43.289Z,12117,1,42,41,124,0,0,753.4,66974,anon3828707713,anon3828707713," @anon1625566362 sums it up: > *AI is like Mr. Hyde to doctor Jekyll.* > > *Is your companion who does difficult tasks for you, but with something in exchange.* > > *It is the angel and the devil on your shoulder.* > > *It is American arrogance and the desire for Chinese conquest.* > > *It’s a dream sprinkled with terrible flashes.* > > *It is the fierce and overbearing soul that will lead us to be less human before even realizing that we are too human to manage it.* They put into words what I have been struggling to articulate as the reason behind having organised the workshop on [AI and Justice](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60) in Brussels on 19/11. This workshop was part of an ongoing conversation on our community platform [( overview here)](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/ai-inequalities-and-justice-an-overview-of-all-documented-discussions-before-during-and-after-the-workshop/12014/3). Its purpose is to make sense of what we can do to take agency over the development of our futures in the age of what is often framed as inevitable developments towards one of two outcomes: The undoing of humanity vs a path to save us from ourselves. What have I understood so far? It all boils down to the following: ## We need new general principles of justice as a foundation for all policymaking in an age of networked technologies. 1) The ethics of substantial freedom. This includes citizens’ inalienable rights of ownership, control, access and possession of information about themselves and their communities. 2) The Capability Approach as defined by Amartya Sen. 3) Data is not a commodity. In the digital society it is the equivalent of the air we breathe. 4) Optimisation is not neutral. The choice to optimise at all has to be assessed based on its potential impact on the substantial freedoms of the individual. 5) “The individual”, “the citizen” and the “Human” are understood to mean individual members of the species Homo Sapiens. ## If we wish to ensure rule of law in Europe, we need a principle of balance of investment when it comes to AI and other networked digital technologies. This means that for every investment of public resources into promotion, education, research, development, or monetisation of these new technologies - we need to ensure equal injection of resources towards providing the means for the individual citizen to gain ownership, control, access and possession of information about themselves and their communities. These resources have to be directly accessible and accountable to the individual citizen and their community. ## A moonshot mission: If we want to ensure that AI/New Internet Technologies serves european citizens and businesses Europe must invest in building, maintaining and developing public cloud infrastructure. ## This is a first draft and open to suggestions. Any thoughts?" 2,66989,2019-12-05T13:42:59.925Z,12117,1,31,30,1,0,0,16.2,66974,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,Nice. Are you proposing it for re:publica? 3,66991,2019-12-05T13:45:58.661Z,12117,0,32,31,1,0,0,41.4,66989,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"Sure if it offers an opportunity to build on/develop this further. Ideally, people would take these principles and conclusions into discussions and then feed what they learn back into the conversation." 4,67069,2019-12-06T12:56:39.518Z,12117,1,30,29,1,1,0,46.0,66974,anon3197437925,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:1, topic:12117""]A moonshot mission: If we want to ensure that AI/New Internet Technologies serves european citizens and businesses Europe must invest in building, maintaining and developing public cloud infrastructure.[/quote] I'd emphatically agree, except that I'd scrap ""cloud infrastructure"" and put in ""open source IT infrastructure"". The cloud is really just somebody else's computer. There may be efficiencies of scale, obtained in exchange for a massive lack of control. Network speeds inside Europe (25 - 100 Mbit/s via ADSL and VDSL in most places now) is already sufficient for self-hosting, for taking back full control. Of course that needs a massive investment both into open source software (to make it nice and simple to use) and into skills. For the latter, I'd create an obligatory subject in school, called ""server and data management"". I mean, why not. Controlling and safeguarding ones own data is a skill that will be useful even in 100 years if (!) Europe decides to go that way rather than continue on the current road of letting everyone else but not the citizen take control of citizen data … To flesh this out a bit, the type of public and open source IT infrastructure I'd like to see for an efficient and enjoyable data-driven society would include the following. I don't focus on AI technology, as that's just another (and slightly more powerful) type of algorithm, not fundamentally changing what computers can be applied for. * **Company starter kit.** Basically all the tools we are building or still missing to run a small company like Edgeryders, as an integrated open source toolkit. Including an open source version of FreeAgent, which again must include cashflow projection etc. … * **Federated messaging and calling.** Instant messaging is a nightmare by now, as we lack any recognized interoperable standard (like HTML, e-mail etc.). So we have a lot of competing systems, and everyone needs up to 10 software packages for instant messaging and phone calls these days. They do the same, more or less, and it's a nightmare to use, worse than the public phone system that is being replaced with these tools. A Europe-wide standard for mandatory interoperability between these systems would be a great start. And of course an open source, security audited reference implementation. Like e-mail servers or Riot / Matrix, this system should run decentralized on multiple servers, and people would then have that server running in their own home typically, as part of their Internet router hardware. * **OpenStreetMap as the official map.** OpenStreetMap is great because, with map software like [OsmAnd](https://osmand.net/), it became anon2373157426 simple to contribute to a ""wiki map"" of the world. I do that sometimes in combination with cycling trips in the forest. It's not perfect yet: the user experience must become better, and governments should be mandated to contribute all their own geospatial data there. * **Consent-based advertising.** Currently, advertising is very similar to the worst case of anon2696444391 women experience online dating: lots of attention seeking and often disgusting messages, and other uninvited and unwelcome advances. Instead, just like more modern (OkCupid style) online dating, advertising should be based on audience consent. Practically: I may accept and even welcome a product advertisement message from a company *which I like*, and for that I want to browse through company profiles at times and select those I like. Another case where a Europe-wide digital infrastructure would be a big win for citizens." 5,67109,2019-12-06T18:05:54.219Z,12117,1,27,26,1,0,0,30.4,67069,anon1732761404,anon3197437925,"1. Don't we already have an open source cloud infrastructure through, e.g. OpenStack? 2. What is the risk that Thierry Breanon2863106368, former CEO of beloved household names such as ATOS, France Telecom and Bull, will wield his newly granted power over EU industrial policy to invest EU tax payer money in the high-performance computing capacity (i.e. European cloud services) of beloved household names such as Atos?" 6,67110,2019-12-06T18:12:58.732Z,12117,0,28,27,1,0,0,40.6,66974,anon1732761404,anon3828707713,"> ## We need new general principles of justice as a foundation for all policymaking in an age of networked technologies. > > 1. The ethics of substantial freedom. This includes citizens’ inalienable rights of ownership, control, access and possession of information about themselves and their communities. Is there a theoretical framework for this? I connect it with Philip Agre and perhaps some of the philosophical frameworks developed in the EU FIDIS program around 2005. But I also recognise some huge public-administrative challenges in e.g. Sweden with changing the ownership structure for personal data/information in this way (i.e. information about private persons has been used to ""optimize"" public services, and must, in order to fill this role, belong to the government). > 2. The Capability Approach as defined by Amartya Sen. Yes! > 3. Data is not a commodity. In the digital society it is the equivalent of the air we breathe. I wonder about the difference with copyright (and trademark) law here: In copyright law, the holder of the right can unilaterally dictate to users of the work the terms of usage. Under data protection law, anon2696444391ever, it is the user of the data that unilaterally dictates the terms of usage to the holder of the right. Is either of these models envisaged or something different? For the air, surely it is the user of the air (a polluting industry, for instance) that dictates to the holder of the right to air (the population, perhaps?) the terms of usage. Someanon2696444391. > 4. Optimisation is not neutral. The choice to optimise at all has to be assessed based on its potential impact on the substantial freedoms of the individual. !!! Yes. There was a very good ""understreckare"" in Svenska dagbladet about this one and a half decade ago, or so, that questioned the concept of ""effectivization"". What does it mean to make something ""more efficient"" (one of the primary goals of digitalization, in both EU and Swedish mainstream politics)? > 5. “The individual”, “the citizen” and the “Human” are understood to mean individual members of the species Homo Sapiens. I would like more work on the Extended Mind Hypothesis (http://cogprints.org/320/1/extended.html ) and the integration of data, A.I. or electronic devices as extensions to our cognitive abilities someanon2696444391. But I should read Hilary Putnam, I suppose, to understand this better." 7,67113,2019-12-06T18:57:33.454Z,12117,1,24,23,1,1,0,29.8,67109,anon3197437925,anon1732761404,"[quote=""anon1732761404, post:5, topic:12117""]Don’t we already have an open source cloud infrastructure through, e.g. OpenStack?[/quote] Indeed, we have. My point is rather that cloud infrastructure is not very useful in general – or should not be, as with proper decentralization and local control of data, there are only a few use cases for high-performance data centers. In political organization, we have federation (5 levels here in Germany). In data management, we only have centralization (""data centers""). It does not have to be that way … [quote=""anon1732761404, post:5, topic:12117""]What is the risk that Thierry Breanon2863106368 […] will […] invest EU tax payer money in the high-performance computing capacity (i.e. European cloud services) of beloved household names such as Atos?[/quote] Substantial, right? What kind of industrial policy, tech policy and data policy would prevent the emergence of quasi-monopolies like ATOS in the first place?" 8,67700,2019-12-18T14:04:33.152Z,12117,0,19,18,1,0,0,38.8,67113,anon1732761404,anon3197437925,"> What kind of industrial policy, tech policy and data policy would prevent the emergence of quasi-monopolies like ATOS in the first place? It's a good question. Industrial policy ties into tech, innovation, data and security policy because it's ultimately about preserving the material welfare of (at least parts of) the local population. In the EU it's a huge challenge that all the local populations are not the same - e.g., benefitting ATOS will almost certainly provide a material benefit to someone in France, but it's not clear that this benefit will disseminate to other parts of Europe in equal measure. We can interpret ""benefit"" or ""material welfare"" as in the Capabilities Approach by Sen (as proposed by @anon3828707713 above) if that's convenient. This opinion piece by Piotr Arak starts out a bit shaky, but I think the latter half explains pretty well the problem of a green economy from a Polish perspective: https://euobserver.com/opinion/146932 I think we could add the ""ATOS-problem"" to the complexity, e.g., Arak raises the issue of the ""materials industry problems"" (implying, I think correctly, that subsidizing the industry for eco-materials is unlikely to increase the capabilities of Polish rural communities) - and the ATOS problem is the same. If the goal is simply to avoid quasi-monopolies like ATOS (and I'm not sure in which industry segment they'd be particularly dominant?), then perhaps ortholiberalism coupled with some Tim Wuean concept of lowered market entry barriers would be sufficient. If the goal is, on the other hand, to spread capabilities around Europe, we'd have a more difficult task at hand." 9,67936,2019-12-25T17:11:14.865Z,12117,0,19,18,1,0,0,8.8,66974,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,"... meanwhile, looks like China is having ""robot judges"" adjudicate ""millions of cases"". It does put a new spin on this stuff. https://learnanon2945747231nglish.voanews.com/a/robot-justice-the-rise-of-china-s-internet-courts-/5201677.html" 10,76630,2020-05-15T09:50:55.540Z,12117,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,66974,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"hi everyone especially @anon3835921950 @anon1732761404 @anon1965424313 As a result of the workshop report, we have been contacted by the office of a Member of the European Parliament with the Greens/EFA group with a request for input on a text on the consumer protection aspects of regulation of AI. Is this worthwhile getting people to contribute to? Deadline is sunday Context: https://alexandrageese.eu/three-proposals-for-artificial-intelligence-in-europe/" 11,76692,2020-05-16T20:00:28.121Z,12117,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,76630,anon3835921950,anon3828707713,"Hi Nadia, If she asked you directly, could be nice to contribute and build a connection with her (irrespective of final impact)? I guess she asked you to comment on [this text](https://www.discuto.io/en/consultation/34549) right? After a quick glance, a few points that she might include in the final report: 1. a fundamental rights impact assessment before system deployment (and even after for high-risk systems); 2. (strict) liability for those businesses in the value chain that profit from deployment 3. AI systems funded by public money should be open-source by default (stipulate this in tender)." 12,76724,2020-05-18T10:50:07.417Z,12117,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,76692,anon3828707713,anon3835921950,"""Hi Nadia, great! Thanks so much for taking the time to give feedback! For your points: 1. yes will include. 2. there is a special liability report on AI in the Parliament so we cannot touch this 3. I believe we have this already (see P11 - point 7.)""" 13,76833,2020-05-18T17:30:10.112Z,12117,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,66974,anon1965424313,anon3828707713,Interesting! Sorry I missed this. 14,76834,2020-05-18T17:37:28.419Z,12117,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,76724,anon3835921950,anon3828707713,"Great, thanks for conveying Nadia. Overlooked that open source was already in. Indeed, there are a few different interlinking reports, all commenting on AI white paper which is itself still a kind of preliminary document." 15,78443,2020-06-08T08:39:31.621Z,12117,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,76834,anon3828707713,anon3835921950,Trouble on the horison. Any way to get national parties & trade unions to kick up a stink about this? https://mobile.twitter.com/SamuelStolanon2863106368/status/1269895417245958144 16,78497,2020-06-08T15:54:51.460Z,12117,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,66974,anon3835921950,anon3828707713,"Hey Nadia, I doubt it, to be frank. It's not professional, and minutes of meetings should be taken and kept, but this may just as well be incompetence, not necessarily malicious intent. If I had to guess, I doubt that this was the type of meeting where substantial issues were discussed. However, what is worrying, and why Palantir is likely interested, are the EU's plans to set up a new biometric database for [border policing](https://www.euractiv.com/section/digital/news/eu-signs-contract-for-large-scale-biometric-database-to-protect-borders/). Depending on anon2696444391 this shapes up, it might be contradicting advice from the High-Level Group on AI (on facial recognition etc.), so this will be very interesting and important to keep a close eye on." 17,78510,2020-06-08T18:50:55.386Z,12117,0,11,10,0,0,0,2.2,78497,anon3828707713,anon3835921950,this is my worry. They shouldn't be anywhere near anything in the Eu anymore. Must be legislative or procedural instruments available to keep them out? 1,78045,2020-06-02T21:46:03.969Z,13750,0,7,6,1,0,0,38.4,78045,anon2518302436,anon2518302436,"Hello all, I research & teach Auanon2863106368omous Vehicle business with an aspiration to mentor diverse backgrounds of people to pivot their careers to build out the connected and auanon2863106368omous space which impacts all industries. Tomorrow Wed 9am pt/18 cest my past student Igor Tryndin, an AV engineer at NVidia is my guest speaker to my online AV Masterclass. Igor is speaking to educate about Car Cognition and is not representing his company. I'd love to invite some of you interested in this topic to join us. Reg at http://driverlessworldschool.com/p/careerpivot It is fully online and you need to register to get a secure online class link (not to be shared with others). Feel free to say 'yes' to opt-out emails if you don't want to get any other email than this one invite for future class speakers on this topic. Thanks Sudha" 2,78089,2020-06-03T09:26:58.371Z,13750,1,5,4,0,0,0,6.0,78045,anon1753543892,anon2518302436,"Sounds very interesting, We already have two calls happening at that time, one on Data Science in context with COVID, one on prekariat in high education, so I wont be able to join. But thank you for sharing this here. @anon3203746736 and @anon3086952555, do you maybe know people to ping who would be interested in joining this?" 3,78227,2020-06-03T18:26:06.126Z,13750,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,78089,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"Sorry, was to late to respond in time." 4,78230,2020-06-03T19:55:03.275Z,13750,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,78045,anon3828707713,anon2518302436,"HI Sudha, anon2696444391 did it go? I'm afraid i couldn't make it to your class, it clashed with a prior commitment :( An old acquaintance just launched their platform for shippers and carriers to use and manage electric and auanon2863106368omous freight transport. Curious what you think of it! https://www.einride.tech/" 1,77689,2020-05-29T12:02:35.652Z,13702,0,14,13,29,0,0,177.8,77689,anon794158989,anon794158989,"Yesterday, I attended a presentation by [Gabrielle Lim](https://gabriellelim.com/), Researcher at Harvard’s Shorenstein Center. She presented [ *Disinformation Strategies and Tactics* ](https://internetfreedomfestival.org/wiki/index.php/Disinformation_Strategies_and_Tactics) at the [Internet Freedom Festival](https://internetfreedomfestival.org/)’s [Community Knowledge Share](https://internetfreedomfestival.org/wiki/index.php/Community_Knowledge_Share). I wrote a [more philosophical response in my blog](https://schmud.de/posts/2020-05-29-disinformation-strategies.html), but I was struck by the difficulty in giving a name to this troublesome phenomenon. Can we combat something we cannot even name? Is it even possible to curb it given social media's current incentive structure (I suggest [it's not](https://schmud.de/posts/2020-05-29-disinformation-strategies.html)). [Mike Kujawski](https://medium.com/@anon * **Misinformation**: information that is false, but created or shared with no intent to do harm to any particular individual, group, or organization. * **Disinformation**: information that is false and initially disseminated with the intention to do harm to an individual, group, or organization. Its effectiveness depends as much on an actor’s capacity to create as much as an audience’s receptivity. * **Malinformation**: information has basis in reality, but shared with the intention to manipulate and incite. Are there communities where mis/dis/malinformation is less prevalent and can we use those as models to build a better internet?" 2,77700,2020-05-29T12:58:40.457Z,13702,2,12,11,0,0,0,12.4,77689,anon4058714779,anon794158989,"I hope the open science collaborative work nowadays is all about correct information, but one still never knows (even many open access 'pre-prints' around covid-19 things are poorly disguised marketing efforts- people putting out patents are trying to sell their kits...). I'm mainly writing this now to help me follow this thread and learn more! :)" 3,77721,2020-05-29T14:14:54.862Z,13702,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,77700,anon794158989,anon4058714779,"Are you publishing similar research anywhere I can read it? Should I be looking at The Blog for AGiR!? I spent a couple years working on this problem at [Nextjournal](http://nextjournal.com/anon794158989/). It's anon2373157426 a problem - pre-prints have been increasingly valuable but it's usually impossible to see the work or access any data to run the experiments. Could better tools improve the publication of open science?" 4,78041,2020-06-02T21:33:45.778Z,13702,1,10,9,2,0,0,17.0,77689,anon1753543892,anon794158989,"@anon794158989 and @anon4058714779, thank you very much for this post. Would love to continue this conversation further! I would also like to invite you to tomorrows discussion on anon2696444391 to read and interpret datasets and data visualisations in the context of COVID on the examples provided by DeLab. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/webinar-making-sense-of-a-covid-19-world-applying-collective-intelligence-to-big-data-3rd-of-june/13537/9 After a short of presentation of their data throve we want to engage into a deep discussion on anon2696444391 to gather, question, read and interpret data and your perspective and especially questions would be very welcome there!" 5,78063,2020-06-03T06:51:41.574Z,13702,1,8,7,0,0,0,21.6,77721,anon4058714779,anon794158989,"the Hackuarium work for the #coronadetective project so far is mainly open sci documentation and discussion in the JOGL slack (esp the working group nucleic acid amplification). The AGiR! work for open sourcing DNA damage detection is a mix between the genomicintegrity.org domain things and experiments at Hackuarium. Sadly, all sets of information are someanon2696444391 mainly piling up as google drive documents, spreadsheets and more. I also use Evernote for experimental protocols (these get linked in drive docs too). Friends are working on ways to have apps that take in data live (for instance beach litter survey info) and make it easier to access and manipulate, ultimately for publication... Yes, better tools should help. Funnily, anon2696444391ever, we actually just resubmitted some old Hackuarium work, that was open throughout the data acquisition etc, for peer review - thinking we might make a bit more impact. (but it is weird as the journal is brand new -we sort of got a 'bait and switch' because of a special call for 'citizen science' work - though we prefer to think about it as participatory research.) Anyway, fanon2945747231rs crossed, our study on water monitoring around Montreux Bay (2 summers of sampling) may come out eventually... in the old fashioned way. Maybe I haven't really answered your question (but it is great if you are interested in the Blog for AGiR! and spread the word about dynamic activities in cells... :)" 6,78065,2020-06-03T06:56:28.221Z,13702,1,8,7,0,0,0,6.6,78041,anon4058714779,anon1753543892,"when and anon2696444391 are you planning this discussion? It sounds very interesting, but I already have plans to go to lab this afternoon and also have zooms from 6pm... with the recent chaos on top of covid-19 in the states, I wonder anon2696444391 anxiety scores are doing now... <3" 7,78083,2020-06-03T08:56:11.112Z,13702,2,9,8,0,0,0,11.8,78065,anon1753543892,anon4058714779,"The call is for 90 min from 3rd June, 5PM CEST. It's in collaboration with DeLab, Nesta and Edgeryders. If you are interested feel free to just pop in for an hour :). ## 3rd of June, 5PM CEST. # How to join: **Follow this link to sign up:** ## [https://zmurl.com/ngicovid ](https://zmurl.com/ngicovid) **We will record this webinar for research purposes. You can find more information here:** [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/13445 ](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/13445)" 8,78092,2020-06-03T10:12:43.192Z,13702,0,8,7,0,0,0,1.6,77689,anon1753543892,anon794158989,"This might also be interesting: https://www.warmdatapodcast.com/?fbclid=IwAR2Xq6cmdcI1a7Ux3E8HUEGGp6-pDTXrYX-k5BNySkZpOQ0PjPi56twD9KA they are doing one replay 4th June 9:00 CEST" 9,78134,2020-06-03T12:18:50.270Z,13702,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,78083,anon794158989,anon1753543892,"I'm in the same situation as Rachel. I have a call at exactly 5pm and then a class at 7pm. I would love to attend an Edgeryders presentation soon. Is there a central calendar somewhere? I suppose there are these weekly updates like https://anon1577251828.eu/t/is-coronavirus-the-tipping-point-for-our-already-imbalanced-system/13741?? Is that what I should be looking at?" 10,78138,2020-06-03T12:50:20.746Z,13702,1,7,6,1,2,0,26.4,77700,anon3379761435,anon4058714779,"[quote=""anon4058714779, post:2, topic:13702""] even many open access ‘pre-prints’ around covid-19 things are poorly disguised marketing efforts- people putting out patents are trying to sell their kits… [/quote] Jesus. Capitalism is like King Midas in reverse: it turns to s##t everything it touches. [quote=""anon4058714779, post:5, topic:13702""] Friends are working on ways to have apps that take in data live (for instance beach litter survey info) and make it easier to access and manipulate, ultimately for publication… [/quote] I like to use [Jupyter Notebooks](https://jupyter.org/) (or other notebooks if you don't like Python). Markdown text + live code... perfect for science." 11,78156,2020-06-03T13:24:09.222Z,13702,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,78134,anon1753543892,anon794158989,"There is a weekly overview of the discussion in IOH posted every Wednesday evening. It is usually pinned for 1-2 weeks and you can search for it with ""weekly-overview-ioh"" and a newsletter like [Is Coronavirus the tipping point for our already imbalanced system?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/is-coronavirus-the-tipping-point-for-our-already-imbalanced-system/13741)?? will also be posted regularly in future more focused on one specific topic at the time." 12,78188,2020-06-03T14:53:59.080Z,13702,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,78083,anon4058714779,anon1753543892,"it isn't possible for me today, but will hopefully catch more in the future. : -)" 13,78192,2020-06-03T15:01:32.528Z,13702,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,78138,anon4058714779,anon3379761435,"this is the latest of a string... not all bad, still... https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.01.127019v1.full.pdf+html sorry, gotta run! (can't join in call)" 1,74987,2020-04-24T12:17:37.888Z,13306,0,20,19,217,0,0,1149.0,74987,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![41|690x50](upload://lmy80GTThOBrwPhpl1p3TnqUlMO.png) ## We want to invite you to the ViConnect Play&Culture Prototype Event *This is the next step in the development of a webinar series using analogue drawing and VR technology to give you and your children a creative outlet and way to connect during the lockdown as well as a forum for a meaningful and creative borderless conversation.* The initiative and design of this workshop is by @anon486911009 [You can see the start of the idea and conversation here in this post about the VR Drawing.](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-can-we-do-together-drawing-on-some-virtual-reality-dreams/13178) ### When: 3rd of May, 16:00 - 17:30 CEST [date=2020-05-03 timezone=""Europe/Brussels""] ### How to Join: Comment to this post that you are interested and we will add you to the rsvp list and share the time and link to the call with you. We are going to use our new Edgryders call tool with a secure rsvp list to make sure you and whatever you share is safe. After stating your interest in this thread, just join via this link: # now.anon1577251828.eu/call/13306 ### What: We invite 4-5 families with children between 5 and 13 to join us for the first prototype run. ### We will teach you anon2696444391 to get from a simple analogue sketch your children can do at home. ### To a VR room of their own design which they can share with others: In the Webinar you will learn anon2696444391 to do this and go on a VR journey with a Koala visiting Europe for the first time, asking the children for help to see their worlds during the lockdown :). It's going to be a great experience for you, your children and us and also the prototype for a larger course series we are currently developing (see bellow) ### The future ViConnect course series coming after the prototype: ViConnect is an inherently European project. A course series and online teach/connection method is developed in collaboration with Edgeryders, its diverse international community and the World Organisation for Early Childhood Education [OMEP](https://www.omepitalia.org/). It uses technology to empower creativity and transfer skills and knowledge for online teaching, the articulation and communication of culture and distributed collaboration. The course series consists of three one-week courses:* *Each course will teach the participants anon2696444391 to draw analogue sketches and paintings which can be transformed into VR environments in connection to a topical conversation and co-creative learning. We address 3 interconnected key-groups and topics which are especially relevant during the current crisis directly:* *1. ViConnect Learning (first week, 10 - 20 participants )*: Addresses educators and parents. We discuss the challenge of making virtual classrooms effective and using creativity and virtual reality to make digital teaching more engaging and ask the participants to use the experiences to design their “dream virtual classroom” to discuss further. *2. ViConnect Culture & Play (second week, 5-10 Families)*: Addresses children and parents to make virtual reality accessible to children and give them a creative outlet in times of quarantine and curfew and method of sharing their ideas and culture and to create awareness of the diversity of culture in Europe. Via a playful story we discuss and share culture and current situations: Children are asked to create VR-drawings to explain their home to a fictional character visiting Europe for the first time and are not allowed to travel due to lockdown. *3. ViConnect Work (third week, 10 - 20 participants)*: Addresses distributed/home office workers. We will discuss challenges and solutions for distributed work informed by the large distributed collaboration manual already developed by Edgeryders. The participants will be asked to use the VR-drawing technique to sketch their “dream home office”; the conversation will inform the ongoing development of another distributed collaboration MOOC by Edgeryders. We want to invite you to the ViConnect Play & Culture Prototype Event. ``` { ""info"": ""This is the next step in the development of a webinar series using analogue drawing and VR technology to give you and your children a creative outlet and way to connect during the lockdown as well as a forum for a meaningful and creative borderless conversation. The initiative and design of this workshop is by @anon486911009. You can see the start of the idea and conversation here in this post about the VR Drawing."" } ```

### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png)" 2,74990,2020-04-24T12:35:19.006Z,13306,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,74987,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 3,74999,2020-04-24T14:09:34.444Z,13306,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,74987,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 4,75162,2020-04-27T14:35:02.511Z,13306,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,74987,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,Hey guys this is going to be fabulous! Do i need to print something beforehand? There was some kind of paper with a grid on it but I cannot remember anon2696444391/where to find it? 5,75166,2020-04-27T14:49:04.623Z,13306,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,74987,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"@anon486911009 refered to this platform ealier to get grids: https://panoform.com/ But I think it would be good to post one chooses one here for use in this specific course. @anon anon646763613 is also preparing a prototype MOOC and material in general which will be put in its own subcategory on IOH before the weekend and linked here." 6,75195,2020-04-27T17:01:13.151Z,13306,1,12,11,4,0,0,57.4,75166,anon486911009,anon1753543892,"We could put credit on the grid Given that the magic works only by 2:1 ratio (which is not A4 size) we can give two options: a) print it on a A3 or a4 and then uploading as A3 or A4 and resize it 2:1, or b) work in digital on pc or online (we will draw and paint collaborately on https://awwapp.com/# to sanon2696444391 the magic). I understand that not everybody has a printer/scanner, or at least I will sanon2696444391 both ways (a; b)." 7,75275,2020-04-28T14:08:35.807Z,13306,0,10,9,1,0,0,37.0,74987,anon3221636808,anon1753543892,My son and I are highly interested. We need more information though. Thank you. 8,75276,2020-04-28T14:11:47.790Z,13306,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,75195,anon3221636808,anon486911009,What do I need to print? 9,75277,2020-04-28T14:22:21.890Z,13306,1,11,10,2,0,0,17.2,75276,anon1753543892,anon3221636808,"Hello @anon3221636808, great to have you! You only need to print the grid posted above by @anon486911009 :)" 10,75283,2020-04-28T16:13:02.653Z,13306,1,11,10,4,0,0,27.2,75277,anon486911009,anon1753543892,Hi @anon3221636808 glad to count you in for sunday.. just to get an idea on anon2696444391 it works you can check what my daughter drew (https://github.com/demetramonaco/virtualdrawings/blob/master/Paesaggio%20fantastico%20e%20bello.jpeg) and what it looks like when uploaded on kuula and shared here on anon1577251828. During the webinar we will do together all the steps from basic concept to publishing. I will sanon2696444391 both the paper and the digital way. It will be fun and an opportunity on visual research for prescholar education and parenting about digital collaboration and virtual reality 11,75466,2020-04-30T10:55:15.644Z,13306,1,12,11,2,0,0,17.4,75283,anon486911009,anon486911009,I share the early draft of the methodology and activity [VIC with Syd](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1dW--9ArJqdqAkM8hl_xOW8kUefBN18jOUgafTcumKLA/edit?usp=sharing) 12,75467,2020-04-30T10:59:22.098Z,13306,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,75466,anon1753543892,anon486911009,"cool. As a matter of personal taste, maybe you could change the green background to the blue from the logo? But that your call :)" 13,75495,2020-04-30T15:44:40.008Z,13306,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,75467,anon486911009,anon1753543892,"Sure, you are right! green is the colour of VR..but is definitely strong.. sunday we can ask what colour too.. I think Syd deserves a much relaxing anon2863106368e of green.." 14,75509,2020-05-01T06:49:58.617Z,13306,1,8,7,0,0,0,21.6,75495,anon486911009,anon486911009,"Hi @anon1753543892, anon2696444391 are we going to onboard and connect participants to the webinar? By pinging them in advance and providing the link with some instructions? just trying to figure it out in advance." 15,75513,2020-05-01T07:40:31.382Z,13306,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,75509,anon1753543892,anon486911009,"We are using the RSVP function therefore we can share the link in public here. now.anon1577251828.eu/call/13306 Only those whose Edgeryders Handel's are put on the list (just shot one comment here) can join. So it is safe :slight_smile: Will of course also send reminders out to everyone on Saturday and Sunday." 16,75514,2020-05-01T07:42:32.358Z,13306,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,74987,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Pond @anon3431216030 could you give this a anon2488317424 last push for more people to see it and maybe join on Sunday? It is focused on families with children between 5 and 13." 17,75515,2020-05-01T07:44:27.028Z,13306,0,10,9,1,0,0,37.0,75514,anon3431216030,anon1753543892,No problem! I will add some extra posts to the schedule. 18,75588,2020-05-03T09:01:59.572Z,13306,1,9,8,2,0,0,31.8,74987,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Reminder: the prototype webinar for ViConnect takes place today! Let's help Syd to see Europe through VR drawing made by hand! Looking forward to seeing you later today :)" 19,75593,2020-05-03T12:52:38.312Z,13306,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,75588,anon486911009,anon1753543892,"Syd is looking forward to connecting with european kids in one hour " 20,75595,2020-05-03T13:46:23.934Z,13306,0,8,7,0,0,0,1.6,75593,anon486911009,anon486911009,Hi @anon1753543892 i'm online and can connect to room anytime ...ready to work with participants here https://awwapp.com/b/ufnoyi2xnwlhi/ 21,75596,2020-05-03T13:56:08.660Z,13306,0,8,7,0,0,0,16.6,74987,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"And Here is the link for the call: # [now.anon1577251828.eu/call/13306](http://now.anon1577251828.eu/call/13306)" 22,75733,2020-05-05T02:46:06.857Z,13306,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,74987,anon486911009,anon1753543892,"The first meeting meant for prototyping and test interoperativity among videocall system, resources (kuula, awwapp, anon1577251828 itself) and people (including a 7-year-old child) happened sunday and everything went smooth, except for the number of participants. A rethinking of advertising the event, the information provided, the payoff for participating, and the possible user (children , grown, both, ...?) has been given a proper attention. @anon1753543892 thank for your precious support and for testing the workflow. I'll be back soon with some improvements and possibly with more people willing to join in for a next prototype event." 23,75743,2020-05-05T08:01:09.341Z,13306,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,75733,anon1753543892,anon486911009,"Thank you @anon486911009 for your great initiative and work. Regarding the better communication of the event. We would like to tell a story about your work and motivation. For that I would like to interview you about this and your other projects. Would you be up for that? When would suit you?" 24,75777,2020-05-05T15:48:06.736Z,13306,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,75743,anon486911009,anon1753543892,"Hi @anon1753543892, anon2696444391 would you like to run the interview? written or by a videocall to be recorded? It could suit friday 9th, possibly through the afternoon, or next week." 25,77761,2020-05-30T09:58:40.558Z,13306,2,8,7,1,0,0,46.6,75777,anon486911009,anon486911009,"Hi @anon1753543892, hope you are doing fine. I would like to update the VR project, maybe for adults as well, and rework on the concept for kids." 26,77763,2020-05-30T10:25:05.145Z,13306,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,77761,anon1753543892,anon486911009,Sounds good. What support do you need? 27,77766,2020-05-30T11:00:33.290Z,13306,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,77761,anon3828707713,anon486911009,pibg @anon3431216030 maybe you can help with the comms for this once its clear what anon646763613 wants to do? 28,77823,2020-06-01T09:50:30.430Z,13306,1,9,8,0,0,0,21.8,77766,anon3431216030,anon3828707713,Absolutely! Keep us updated @anon486911009 and I can put some comms together once all the details for the next session are confirmed. 29,78180,2020-06-03T14:30:05.118Z,13306,0,8,7,0,0,0,31.6,77823,anon486911009,anon3431216030,Great @anon3431216030! i'll ping you and @anon1753543892 as soon as i have some updates to work on together. 1,77762,2020-05-30T10:17:16.584Z,13710,0,10,9,4,0,0,37.0,77762,anon3167067037,anon3167067037," Conçu et béta-testé durant le confinement pour des amis curieux des enjeux autour du numérique sans être des geeks comme moi, je rend publique ce modeste #webinar d'introduction à une histoire critique de l'informatique afin d'en explorer les enjeux politiques, sociaux et économiques. J'explorerai avec vous des époques comme celle d'Alan Turing, le casseur du code nazi Enigma qui a participé à la réussite du débarquement allié, d'IBM qui dominait le marché avec ses Mainframe, la révolution de l'Ordinateur Personnel avec Apple et comment Bill Gates en a fait un hold-up planétaire, le défi lancé à Big Brothers par les hackers, la guerre des browsers des années 90, le mouvement du logiciel libre et de Linux, l'éclatement de la bulle Internet jusqu'à l'émergence des GAFA. 🗓 les 2 premiers lundi et mercredi de juin à 19h (Paris) / 18h (Tunis) 👉 [Inscrivez-vous en cliquant ici](https://forms.gle/DcfmsZuxQvMJxxC16) https://forms.gle/DcfmsZuxQvMJxxC16 [date=2020-06-01 time=19:00:00 timezone=""Europe/Paris""] → [date=2020-06-01 time=19:30:00 timezone=""Europe/Paris""]!" 2,77765,2020-05-30T10:57:32.333Z,13710,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,77762,anon3828707713,anon3167067037,c'est cool! ping @anon2252645440 3,77773,2020-05-30T19:20:24.219Z,13710,0,10,9,1,0,0,52.0,77765,anon2252645440,anon3828707713,"Ravie de te lire @anon3167067037 , le webinaire sera une véritable opportunité pour retracer l'histoire et l’evolution du secteur , je ferais de mon mieux pour partager l'information avec notre communauté francophone Peux tu préciser la zone horaire stp ? @anon4199479944 @anon" 4,77779,2020-05-31T10:39:28.388Z,13710,1,9,8,1,0,0,41.8,77762,anon3167067037,anon3167067037,"Merci @anon2252645440 Pour précision, le webinar ne sera pas une histoire spécifique d'un secteur mais plutôt une histoire universelle de comment les technologies transforment et ont façonné nos vies,. Ce n'est donc pas dédié à des spécialistes du numérique ou de l'informatique mais vraiment grand public. Comme indiqué, l'horaire est 18H à Tunis et 19H à Paris tous les lundi et mercredi ncha'Allah." 5,77927,2020-06-02T07:19:02.570Z,13710,1,7,6,0,0,0,21.4,77779,anon3167067037,anon3167067037,"The first episode (/5) went great and smoothly. I had one guest from Tunisia, the rest (8) from France. Next one Wednesday. The topic will be the Personal Computer revolution of the 80ies & Hackers. See you there." 6,77947,2020-06-02T10:02:32.920Z,13710,0,6,5,0,0,0,16.2,77927,anon3828707713,anon3167067037,ping @anon3431216030 7,77948,2020-06-02T10:04:04.561Z,13710,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,77762,anon3828707713,anon3167067037,@anon3167067037 if you would like us to promote it via the anon1577251828 channels feel free to add it on the list of things to promote over the next week https://anon1577251828.eu/t/weekly-update-please-update-this-list-of-content-to-promote-for-the-coming-week/13190 1,76784,2020-05-18T14:25:49.562Z,13564,1,28,27,83,0,0,440.6,76784,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"@anon1965424313 has published a very interesting long read on anon2696444391 SARS-COV-2 is affecting the evolution of the Internet. Hers is a nuanced reflection, to which I cannot fully do justice here. Nevertheless, I would like to comment on one of her points: that the pandemic, as it ravaged so many human lives and endeavors, has strengthened large tech companies. > The obvious big winner of the COVID-19 crisis so far has been Big Tech. Where most sectors of the economy have seen demand collapse, many large tech companies are reporting [record profits](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/04/30/first-real-recession-big-tech-era-double-edged-sword-silicon/), and have been able to use this momentum to further consolidate market share. With more of us reliant on technology for our daily lives than ever before, we have become more willing to turn a blind eye to the excesses and ethical shortcomings of these companies and their business models. The so-called “end of the techlash” would no doubt be seen as a welcome break after years of negative headlines and mounting public pressure. But will it turn out to be a temporary respite for the internet giants, or are we witnessing a more permanent concentration of power over yet more aspects of our society and economy? Katja formulates it as a question, but her article seems to have an answer: the Internet giants appear more unshakeable than ever. One piece of evidence stayed with me: > Jeff Bezos has so far added 25 billion to [his net-worth](https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-twice-as-wealthy-as-mark-zuckerberg-2020-4?r=US&IR=T) this year, while[ 60 percent](https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2020/may/15/coronavirus-has-left-small-publishers-desperately-fighting-for-survival) of UK independent bookstores expect they might not survive this crisis. Her argument so far is very persuasive, almost inevitable. But I do not completely agree with what comes next: > It is not just their sizable battle chests that leaves Big Tech so well positioned in this current crisis. Because credit where credit is due: the privileged new class of remote workers can only be sustained because we have access to solid, well-functioning digital tools courtesy of the data barons of the new Gilded Age. This is just not true. Remote office work could be done (and *was* done, by a lot of people) in the 1990s. With Mediawiki to replace version control with an edit history (developed 2002) + any chat (which hark back to IRC, developed 1988) you could do 95% of what people do today with MS Teams and the like, give or take bells and whistles. You could even argue that many bells and whistles *reduce* productivity: the rise of Zoom and the like make meetings easier to have online, and meetings tend to be a drag on the productivity of many people. Don't take my word for it, [ask Scott Adams](https://dilbert.com/strip/1996-07-05). The lionization of tech companies strikes me as deeply unfair. The most unfair is probably Netflix's. In 1999, Shawn Fanning built Napster as a robust, scalable file sharing service. At that point we could exchange and share multimedia files. Industry sent in copyright lawyers and lobbyists and took it down, and then built it again, sold it to us, and are now using the proceedings to crush independent cultural and media enterprises. In her book *The Entrepreneurial State*. Mariana Mazzucato makes the point that most groundbreaking tech innovation has been made by public sector researcher and funded by taxpayers, with Big tech (and its financial sector-alter ego, venture capital) stepping in when the high-risk work was done, to privatize the reward. That's rent seeking. A world with great digital tools that are not owned and wielded by Big Tech is absolutely within reach. In fact, Katja herself mentions city halls in Europe deploying Jitsi servers so that schools can host online lessons. Further on, she discusses resilience: and this would be a major piece of resilience – the equivalent of 19th century municipalist socialism, when cities built their own utility companies (from transport to energy) to escape the yoke of private monopolies. I am looking forward to seeing whether any polity embraces it." 2,76811,2020-05-18T15:20:40.652Z,13564,1,25,24,2,1,0,20.0,76784,anon1753543892,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13564""] > the privileged new class of remote workers can only be sustained because we have access to solid, well-functioning digital tools courtesy of the data barons of the new Gilded Age. This is just not true. Remote office work could be done (and *was* done, by a lot of people) in the 1990s. [/quote] There are and have been many different forms of remote work. Different reasons for doing it, different tools used. I think the trend rightnow to calls all of that into one class and oppose it with (essential) worker's who can not work from home even if they and their company wanted it is presenting a wrong picture and conflict. Yes, right now there is a big different in the live of people who's work can be done remotely and that of those whose can not, but there are many more different factors within those groups. And yes, currently many of those rely on tools provided by big companies, but those are not the only way to sustain this type of work as Alberto pointed out. And if the need for a tool exists and the flexibility to start using it, initiatives come u to develop it. Many of those end up being bought up and incorporated or simply copied in the current set up, which is where those sizeable cests come back in. Maybe the anon3983078393ship models could be interesting there. [quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13564""] A world with great digital tools that are not owned and wielded by Big Tech is absolutely within reach. [/quote] ping @anon3005461236 and @anon3214242932" 3,76830,2020-05-18T17:21:31.805Z,13564,2,24,23,1,0,0,49.8,76784,anon1965424313,anon3379761435,"Thanks Alberto for reading the piece and the thoughtful comments! I think the bit about me now praising Big Tech is perhaps a bit of a accidental ""selective editing"" from the text- as it was meant more as a sarcastic bit about anon2696444391 they've now so entrenched their power that they are better able to uphold the kinds of infrastructures that we now rely on- not that we necessarily need to use Big Tech always, or that no alternatives exist. The problem is that alternatives like Jitsi can now not (yet) meaningfully compete because of the underlying conditions that have made the Big Tech so powerful. This is no way me praising Big Tech for providing us with services- it is challenging the laziness of the ""end of the techlash"" narrative! Later on I also say that I hope this might just give us the impetus to more permanently transition to open source alternatives etc. - it's just that the conditions *currently* aren't there, and that many have been too complacent to switch. Regarding working from home: Of course working from home was possible before- the point was more that it is a privilege to work in a jobs that can be done remotely- most particularly lower-paid jobs don't allow for this (i.e. manual work, many segments of the service economy, etc.). Jobs that can be made meaningfully made to done remotely disproportionately require university degrees, etc. It is not the only facet of discussions about class of course, and there are also those in lower-paid jobs who can work from home and vice versa, but the current crisis has revealed and accelerated a growing divide (discussed in far more detail further down in the blog) that we need to be wary off. This is not against remote work, it is against remote work becoming a driver of growing inequality. The solution here is probably in bringing more resilience, and enabling more people to find that flexibility in their work." 4,76832,2020-05-18T17:26:48.038Z,13564,1,21,20,2,0,0,19.2,76830,anon1965424313,anon1965424313,"However: if you found that unclear, I should probably edit back in a section around ""functional sovereignty"", which I took out given the whole piece was ballooning up to be a bit too long. About Big Tech becoming the de facto infrastructure we cannot get out of- which then creates a narrative that they are someanon2696444391 more capable/better able at meeting our needs, which allows them to further strengthen their positions, etc.etc." 5,76836,2020-05-18T18:09:49.065Z,13564,0,20,19,1,2,0,24.0,76830,anon3379761435,anon1965424313,"[quote=""anon1965424313, post:3, topic:13564""] This is no way me praising Big Tech for providing us with services- it is challenging the laziness of the “end of the techlash” narrative! [/quote] Don't worry, this is perfectly clear. On the other hand, the facts that you report – FAANG stock soaring as the economy nosedives, Bezos's transcendent wealth – are true. And they point to that direction. In other words, even if you don't buy the argument that ""the data barons are giving us robust tools we need"", most people and governments do. I am making my point not to contradict you, but to contradict that narrative. Which, is guess what? once again this toxic, misleading idea of ""innovation"" as something done by ""risk-taking"" private entrepreneurs, who ""create value"" by their ""creativity"". I am so tired of this. [quote=""anon1965424313, post:3, topic:13564""] Of course working from home was possible before- the point was more that it is a privilege to work in a jobs that can be done remotely- most particularly lower-paid jobs don’t allow for this (i.e. manual work, many segments of the service economy, etc.). [/quote] Granted. I did write that remote *office* work was possible already in the 1990s. [quote=""anon1965424313, post:4, topic:13564""] About Big Tech becoming the de facto infrastructure we cannot get out of- which then creates a narrative that they are someanon2696444391 more capable/better able at meeting our needs, which allows them to further strengthen their positions, etc.etc. [/quote] This is a topic dear to our heart. Edgeryders has been trying to [go stackless](/t/9422) since forever. And I have been begging the Commission (DG CNECT, since it was still called Information Society) to fund an open source Google Docs equivalent as a digital common good, instead of all these close-to-market apps. It's slow going, I can tell you that!" 6,76852,2020-05-19T00:54:50.553Z,13564,2,21,20,1,0,0,34.2,76784,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"[Here is a link to @anon1965424313's excellent essay](https://research.ngi.eu/longreads/the-great-unwinding-charting-post-covid-19-futures-for-the-internet/). Meanwhile, I just read this Guardian piece by Naomi Klein, [""How Big Tech Plans to Profit from the Pandemic.""](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-anon2696444391-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic) Her focus is largely on the efforts by former Google boss Eric Schmidt in advocating for his former company and their peers like Amazon, Microsoft, Oracle and Facebook, to essentially take over the information infrastructure for pretty much everything in life in the future. It starts describing him pitching the need for China-level surveillance in order to compete with China. I thought at first that Ms Klein was overhyping her point until i scrolled down to the slides Schmidt used to pitch his vision. Based on what is in it, I don't doubt that Trump likes this guy and his vision. It brushes privacy and the public's rights aside if it wants to be like China. He calls mass surveillance a ""killer app for deep learning"" and touts the virtues of a city ""carpeted with cameras."" And of course these Smart Services will be brought to us via outfits like Sidewalk Labs which almost wired up the Toronto waterfront as a Smart City area, but the city dropped it over privacy questions from the public along with not enough apparent public benefit. But Sidewalk and all have moved on and are now working up something bigger with New York and Governor Cuomo. And we know that some services that require high info tech can be deployed in ways that protect privacy. And of course we know about Rob's disposable identity project. And I could imagine a guy like Schmidt paying attention and value into ensuring the rights of people. But surveillance made him a billionaire and he has no track record that I know of in placing high value on the privacy and rights of individuals. Into this comes the pandemic. Whereas that vision for the urgent need to adopt mass surveillance tech was pitched as a national security issue, suddenly there is this pivot toward using these same tech companies and their technologies as benevolent branon2945747231rs of our survival needs. And Schmidt is pitching the tech for education, home health, etc etc.. It reminds me of the ""atoms for peace"" program that got shoved down our throats in the 50s when it was really always about nuclear weapons. But bomb shelters were scaring people and by the way not selling, so then it was decided to embark on all these huge projects to sanon2696444391 us what a friend the uranium atom really is. I remember it all anon2373157426 well. Scary essay. I know Naomi Klein, author of ""The Shock Doctrine"" can serve up a large dose of shock herself, and in this she delivers. I hope she is wrong, but I think she is correct. @anon3086952555 I wonder what your thoughts are..? https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-anon2696444391-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic" 7,76858,2020-05-19T06:15:14.642Z,13564,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,76852,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,A guess: the end game is taking control of our basic means of survival e.g food through controlling data from high precision agriculture etc IBM got there early. 8,77004,2020-05-19T18:52:32.781Z,13564,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,76852,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Here is another piece about anon2696444391 Big Tech and Big Money (crucial components of neoliberalism) view the opportunities of the pandemic. In this piece the author argues that, despite much of the hopeful talk many of us engage in, right-wing groups funded by the likes of the Koch brothers, are moving forward with plans to take advantage of the pandemic to lock down more changes that favor their position. To me a lot of the tie-in to big Net companies like Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc. is they are led by people who, to me, also see themselves as thought leaders of aspects outside their expertise. Schmidt assuming he knows anon2696444391 education is supposed to work, or Elon Musk talking about almost anything. Strong right-wing control that keeps todays hierarchies intact emboldens the tech leaders too. I find this emerging symbiosis pretty scary. https://jacobinmag.com/2020/05/neoliberals-response-pandemic-crisis" 9,77013,2020-05-19T20:17:45.776Z,13564,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,76811,anon3214242932,anon1753543892,"It's absolutely within reach, especially if we organize to build that future beyond Big Tech. Looking forward and hoping to!" 10,77614,2020-05-28T08:56:32.999Z,13564,3,11,10,1,0,0,52.2,76784,anon1753543892,anon3379761435,"Just found this interview with Prof. Fred Turner from Stanford University on Spiegel. SAdly it is not fully free available and I could not yet find an englisch text. (Will search a bit more) https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/fred-turner-ich-fuerchte-dass-die-menschen-den-maschinen-mehr-vertrauen-als-der-politik-a-9784ba2f-9b8c-47d7-b5a7-58a6bd07657b It is about anon2696444391 the virus is used as an argument to accumulate more data and power for the businesses. Found it interesting to see that the same researcher had done a research study on anon2696444391 the silicon valley culture is rooted in burning man culture: https://news.stanford.edu/2018/08/29/burning-mans-influence-silicon-valley/ Given anon2696444391 some of the projects in the community are also inspired by some of the burner culture ground rules but aiming to develop them in a different way, I thoughts that's anon2373157426 interesting. Have you already seen this @anon659222949?" 11,77616,2020-05-28T09:03:33.691Z,13564,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,77614,anon659222949,anon1753543892,"Indeed, I have. And I’ve written about it myself too: https://forum.burning-stories.org/t/burning-man-the-internet-and-late-stage-capitalism/137" 12,77750,2020-05-29T17:10:06.153Z,13564,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,77614,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"That interview with Fred Turner is excellent. ""What I’d want to study now, I think, is anon2696444391 systems designed for utopian ends lose their political mojo and why."" Fred is also the author of a book in which I am prominently featured... ![image|222x300](upload://bg3z58RxwhttgMH38F3ly5bm3FD.png)" 13,77756,2020-05-29T22:12:21.756Z,13564,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,77616,anon3203746736,anon659222949,"I went to Burning Man in 2001. Came home only days before Sept 11. It was pretty big already, but not really commercial. No social media or Uber or any of that stuff yet. I took this 8 second clip while the Man was in full burn spewing these fire tornadoes.. https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/e/efbb79a58a6f04c8b65f81c04fa861d9c1d27bdd.mp4" 14,77818,2020-06-01T09:42:23.536Z,13564,0,9,8,0,0,0,16.8,77614,anon668167639,anon1753543892,recently I came across the review for Wendy Liu's new book Abolish Silicon Valley: https://thequietus.com/articles/28296-wendy-liu-abolish-silicon-valley-review 15,77907,2020-06-01T19:46:23.005Z,13564,0,9,8,1,1,0,6.8,77756,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:13, topic:13564""] I went to Burning Man in 2001. [/quote] Of course you did. Ever the pioneer... :-)" 1,77147,2020-05-21T13:39:20.856Z,13606,0,10,9,6,0,0,107.0,77147,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"Dear all, In the last 2 months I have been putting lots of effort on moving some ideas forward, this has been reflected on 6 EU projects that I have co-submitted and 1 local project for VLAIO support, AI grant. I will be happy to open up that knowledge with the community and talk about anon2696444391 to move those 7 ideas forward as a group. Apart from that, and as some of you may know, I am a board member and co-founder of the P2P Foundation in Belgium. And.... I am also launching another initiative together with amazing people, and you may become one of those amazing people! :slight_smile: Next week, I will be co-launching the 'European Digital Development Alliance': https://europeandigital.org/ for which an important component is the members! You! I kindly invite you to hear about this initiative and a bit more: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-social-impact-of-blockchain-tickets-106336748076 Warmly, Liliana. PD: I am thinking of you: @anon1753543892 @anon3828707713 @anon1282718490 @anon4024333396 @anon3513303872 @anon3747875924 @anon3554387720 @anon3645153774 ... https://twitter.com/lilicarrillof/status/1263452525866467328" 2,77193,2020-05-22T04:56:44.069Z,13606,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,77147,anon1537101702,anon2860100070,"Hi @anon2860100070:) Thanks for sharing this. Unfortunately, there seems to be a glitch in your eventbrite call, it is not accessible. Could you check? I’d be happy to join in." 3,77408,2020-05-26T09:08:51.361Z,13606,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,77193,anon2860100070,anon1537101702,"Dear Asli, there have been some problems with eventbrite and we have fixed them. Here you find the correct page: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-social-impact-of-blockchain-tickets-106336748076 Looking forward to enjoying your company in the call." 4,77536,2020-05-27T15:36:45.968Z,13606,1,7,6,2,0,0,16.4,77147,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"@anon3828707713 The zoom room that we used today to launch this movement has been hacked, we got people 'sharing' undesired images, sound, video.... pretty sad! I remember that you had problems like that. Could you support us for our next call?" 5,77543,2020-05-27T16:50:42.470Z,13606,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,77536,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,https://www.linkedin.com/posts/carrilloliliana_the-social-impact-of-blockchain-activity-6671447641517256704-iALM 1,74497,2020-04-16T16:58:58.273Z,13245,1,21,20,132,0,0,729.2,74497,anon4046128282,anon4046128282,"Britta Schneider is sociolinguist and assistant professor of Language and Migration at the [European University Viadrina Frankfurt (Oder)](https://www.kuwi.europa-uni.de/de/lehrstuhl/sw/sprachgebrauch-und-migration/forschung/index.html), Germany. She has conducted extensive research on multilingual communities in Belize, as well as the role of English within the shifting sociolinguistic economy of gentrifying Berlin. Most recently, she has turned her attention to human-machine interaction. At its core, Britta’s research uncovers the conceptual underpinnings of socio-cultural interaction, the interrelationship of language and belonging and forms of socio-spatial mobility. Britta is a member of the [European Cooperation in Science and Technology (COST)](https://www.cost.eu) and is part of a network of researchers working within its newly approved action [Language in the Human-Machine Era](https://www.cost.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/oc-2019-1_Actions_Booklet-v1.pdf), where she will be in the management committee for Germany and vice-chair of the working group on language attitudes and ideologies. Britta and I met for a virtual interview over Skype from our respective apartments in Berlin to discuss her latest research project, “The Construction of Language in Digital Society”, which examines post-human understandings of ‘correct’ and ‘normal’ language use. The project places its central focus on the impact of voice-controlled human-machine interaction on the conceptualization of computers as interaction partners as well as notions of language appropriateness in digital communication. Here is a link to her latest [piece](https://www.hiig.de/en/what-is-correct-language-in-digital-society-from-gutenberg-to-alexa-galaxy/), which appeared in the Digital Society Blog run by the Alexander von Humboldt Institute for Internet and Digital Society. During our fascinating conversation, Britta and I discussed the ways in which concepts and norms of western, standardised language as well as notions of correctness and incorrectness are produced and reproduced through programming and machine learning, human-machine interaction, and the emerging emotional relationships between people and their voice-controlled digital assistants. Below, you will find a shortened version of our interview, with some exciting examples from her ongoing study! (LS: anon4046128282 Schulte, BS: Britta Schneider) **LS:** You are a member of a group of researchers involved in the new European Cooperation in Science and Technology (COST), and you will be conducting research as part of the recently approved action, Language in the Human-Machine Era. Can you tell me more about this project and your involvement in it? **BS:** The network is funded by the European Council. Dave Sayers, a sociolinguist from the UK, brought the project into being and it has just been approved in March 2020. It hasn’t officially started yet, but the idea is to bring together researchers with an interest in language, but with very different disciplinary backgrounds who are, in one way or another, involved with the topic of language and digital communication. This means there are computational linguists, language professionals such as IT programmers, people who study language in education, some who work on language variation, researchers interested in questions of language and law, language endangerment and language rights, and some who study language ideologies, and all in relation to the changes we face with regards to the human-machine era. So, the network is huge and there are several working groups that will realize conferences, meetings or summer schools within the next four years. **LS:** Alongside your research as part of the COST action, you also launched your own study, “The Construction of Language in Digital Society”. Could you give me an overview of your project and research aims? **BS:** For several years now, I have been working on anon2696444391 languages – as entities – such as English, or German, or Spanish come into being. So, anon2696444391 the idea of a bounded, separable and static language is constructed by speakers. I have done research in multilingual environments, and what came out in my last research project in the Caribbean was that the kind of media that is associated with particular languages has significant impact on whether or not people think this language should be regular or standardised. So, if a language has a written tradition, people are much more likely to believe the language has to be fixed and regular: this highlights the crucial impact of the printing press and of writing technologies on our conception of language. I thought it would be very interesting to look at what happens to all of this in digital environments, where we no longer have the printing press as our main technology of producing mediated communication: anon2696444391 does the internet shape our concepts of language and our concepts of linguistic appropriateness, correctness, and standardness? I thought it would be interesting to start by interviewing people who use Alexa or Siri and other voice-controlled digital assistants to understand anon2696444391 people interact with machines via their voices, and whether they believe they have to standardise their own speech in these interactions; whether they conceptualise these devices as authorities, or whether they experience that these devices learn to handle accents, dialect speech and other ‘irregularities’. **LS:** You mentioned language ideologies. When sociolinguists and linguistic anthropologists talk about language ideologies, we describe normative sets of beliefs about the place and function of certain ways of speaking in society. And, of course, there is a long tradition of studying language ideologies within human-to-human interaction, and the ways in which ideologies of language can serve a policing function, dictating notions of correctness and incorrectness, prestige and authority. What do you think are aspects that might be different about the study of language ideologies in machine-human interaction? **BS:** I think a relevant difference is that the frequency of occurrence of linguistic features in digital contexts plays a much more important role. This contrasts with traditional standards in Western cultures where a small elite of people decide what is correct and what is not correct. These traditional standards were unconceivable without technologies of writing and are still reified and controlled by grammarians, and other elite groups. This concept of written standard language now interacts with frequency: as soon as you have a certain language phenomenon occurring frequently online, then it might, sooner or later, be considered as correct by programmes and devices like Siri and Alexa. Whereas before, correctness might have been based on what appeared in lexicons, or if it appeared in a novel or grammar book – many written by male, educated, white speakers – now if certain words and phrases that appear very often, or rather, appear often in forms that machines can read, then they may *become* correct even if it would not have been labeled as ‘correct’ by a lexicon. **LS:** You touched on this point at the beginning, but just to return to it in a bit more detail, there is a lot of research on anon2696444391 existing social biases and forms of inequality – for example forms of racial and gender injustice – are reproduced through algorithmic decision-making. And this is often due in part to the fact that the majority of people programming these algorithms are not representative of the wider population. Do you see any similar patterns with respect to anon2696444391 language ideologies and attitudes might be reproduced in the context of digital assistants? **BS:** Definitely. Users report to *adapting* their speech when they communicate with Alexa, even on a very fine-grained level, so that Alexa will understand them. This implies that Alexa is working with a conception of ‘correct’ speech that is based on the traditional norms and rules that we find in standardised written languages, and which insufficiently captures the breadth of different forms of speaking: accents, slang, etc. It also has been reported that – this doesn't appear in my data, but I have read in other studies – Alexa reacts better to male voices and that the frequencies with which it is programmed expect a male voice. One might assume that the more these devices are used, the more capable they are of learning and adapting to some degree. Therefore, the longer people use a device, the more it will be able to understand different speech patterns. On the other hand, I also have German speakers in my dataset who report that they use it in English as there is a much larger database on which it draws and can therefore handle variation better in English, making it easier to use rather than in German. **LS:** So, it’s not only about programmer's explicit or implicit attitudes towards the ‘correctness’ of a certain language variety, but it also seems to reify the hegemony of English – and probably Standard British of American English – as a medium of interaction, thereby making these digital assistants even less accessible to a range of users. **BS:** Yes, and I think this is an important difference to previous language ideologies from the age of printing, in that we have to factor in both the size of the dataset as well as frequency of occurrence, which may conflict with traditional norms of language correctness. I can give you an example from a German-English database called [Linguee](https://www.linguee.de), which is an online translation tool. It is based on websites that appear in English and in German. It simply uses a web crawler that looks for English and German websites, and when I used it, it occurred to me that some of the phrases that appear on it sounded pretty German. My hypothesis is if a German translator translates certain texts from German into English, then certain Germanisms will appear that are not necessarily wrong in English, but are unusual. However, if German speakers start to search for particular phrases, for example, ""die Barrieren senken"" or ""to lower the barriers"", which is a common phrase in German, but not so common in English, it still appears as a ‘normal’ phrase in Linguee because it appears on some websites. And then you have a looping effect of people using it because it appears on Linguee and is therefore considered to be correct, which, in turn, might drive native German speakers to continue using this phrase when they speak English. In this way, our whole idea of correctness and whose authority this correctness is based on, is further complicated – which I really like about it. **LS:** We have been speaking a lot about correctness. Can we unpack this notion a anon2488317424 more before we move on? Where do ideas of correctness come from? **BS:** I think that the vast majority of people believe there is a form of language that is correct, and that everything else is not correct. And you devote years of teaching and training to learning this one correct way of speaking and writing. From a sociolinguistic or linguistic anthropological view, these notions of correctness are historical artefacts that we can deconstruct and critique: they are simply the language of the powerful, the language of those who were able to label a particular language variety as correct. So, there is nothing intrinsically correct in using a particular kind of relative pronoun or a particular kind of pronunciation. There is also nothing intrinsically incorrect about using a double-negative. It is simply our traditions and conventions that have been regularised in lexicons and grammar books and that have also come to influence the way all digital devices that deal with human language have been programmed. **LS:** It sounds like you are also identifying a potential in these devices for disrupting these notions of correctness. **BS:** I think it’s both. At the moment, I would think you have a double- development, where you have a reification of these norms and a destabilisation at the same time. There are also cases of programmers explicitly trying to accommodate more variation. I spoke with a programmer who programs Cortana – the Microsoft voice-controlled digital assistant – and who worked on a project developing templates for the device in the Saxon German dialect. So, in some cases, as soon as you have an interest – if you have enough people who use a particular variety – there will be a capitalist interest in making such devices conform so that more people can use them. But again, all of these efforts depend on certain existing power dynamics and inequalities in society. Some speakers may not have that kind of decision-making power and it is very difficult to adapt their speech. Using the standard language variety when interacting with technology can also be a form of symbolic subordination. And in other cases, there will never be a commercial interest in adapting linguistic templates, simply because there are not enough speakers of a particular variety or this variety is in itself more variable because it has no writing tradition or because the speakers themselves are socially marginalized (as for example [*Kiezdeutsch*](http://www.kiezdeutsch.de/aufeinenblick.html) or other multi-ethnic urban forms of speech). In my current study on Alexa users, these are so far only Germans who have been institutionally trained to use standard German and more or less identify with it. It would be important to do more research on more marginalised speakers, also in parts of the world where the idea of homogenous standards is not as dominant as it is in Germany and most other European countries. Certainly, there is potential to have more language variety in digital assistants, but I don't think it will stay flexible forever. These systems will always be more responsive to the demographically more dominant variety, which is of course, typically a variety that already has had status and prestige for a very long time. **LS:** What have you been observing with your informants? How are they viewing linguistic authority within these dynamics (if at all)? **BS:** The speakers I worked with are all speakers of German as a first language and most spoke rather standard varieties of German. None of them really questioned the authority of Alexa and believe that it must know better because it had been programmed, so they adapt their speech. And, of course, also because they want to make the thing work. So, they don't really care. There was one case where someone reported that she used a local-dialect word for a particular kind of light but Alexa didn't understand and she was frustrated, but in the end, she simply used another word. So, this was not such a core issue for my informants so far, but I did notice that they usually do not believe that Alexa has it wrong. Rather, they believe that they themselves are making mistakes and that they have to adapt their speech. Another interesting aspect is that these devices are given personal names so that users refer to them as though they were people. They also refer to them with personal pronouns that we usually use to refer to humans – and female humans, in particular. So, it’s always ""she"". Some speakers also use ""it"", but mostly ""she"". The most interesting point, I find, is that some speakers really develop an emotional relationship to their devices. This suggests that using sound and voice – in a very literal sense – seems to do something to us as humans in contrast to communicating via the keyboard, for example: it facilitates the development of emotional relationships. **LS:** I am reminded of a very early example from your project that you told me about during one of our meetings last year, of one of your informants who owns many of these devices in her home, and who has, over time, developed emotional relationships with all of them. If I remember correctly, she had different relationships to each of them, and she interacted with them in different ways. Can you tell me a bit more about her relationship to and interaction with her devices? **BS:** So, in every room in her flat, she had two or three devices – in each room. And in this case, ""Alexa"" was conceptualised as one person, or let's say, interaction partner. But she had developed different relationships to each of the actual boxes – the tangible, material boxes – even though they all use the same voice. She had one, for example, where she had put some stickers on it to look like a cat's face. She liked each box and she reported very openly to the fact that she had developed very emotional relationships to each of them. She had a closer relationship to the boxes with which she spoke more frequently: So, there was this one device in the living room that was the main speaker and the others were also speakers, but less important. She also had two devices in her bedroom; one that would tell her stories at night to fall asleep, and another box that would play the sound of a fire – a fireplace. As far as I understood her, she had less of an emotional relationship to the device that would only play the sound of a fireplace than she did to the one that told her stories. She also told me about one device in her bathroom that is actually a bit broken, but she still uses it. I thought what she said about that was really interesting. She said, ""this box here has been recovered. She makes a lot more mistakes than the white one in my bedroom, but I let her get away with it. I don't want to give her away even if she has small flaws"". So, of course, she cannot really interact very easily with this one, but she says, ""yeah, I only ask her for the time or the weather"". Most of my informants are actually male, middle-aged, work as consultants or something similar, and they often use it in the car during their commutes to and from work. In this way, Alexa is a kind of secretary. And they write emails and do everything they would do from their desk, but in the car – so it’s more of a practical relationship. In this sense, this one woman was a bit particular in her strong emotional relationship to her devices, but I am sure there are many more people who use it like this, and I think there is a lot of potential – I don't want to glorify the development of these devices, and I am actually very critical of their development – but I am very sure there is a lot of potential for elderly people in this, and for people who are alone. Of course, it would be much nicer if everyone had a happy family life and many friends around them, but if someone doesn’t have that, I think it is still better to talk to Alexa than to talk to no one. **LS:** It sounds like the interaction between people and their devices reproduces relationships that they might have at one point had or relationships that they would like to have – for example, a man using Alexa as his secretary, or this woman reproducing forms of friendship and support – so, it’s not like the devices take on completely new functions that are unique to human-machine interaction. **BS:** I think for all my informants to a certain degree, you can compare the relationship to the relationship you would have with a pet; you have an interaction partner and you want it to do what you say and you have some degree of control over it. But it is someanon2696444391 there and gives you a feeling of comfort, a feeling that someone or something is there with you. This is also interesting linguistically. This particular woman, who I think has a relatively rare relationship to her devices, often signals forms of politeness through her inanon2863106368ation patterns. So, while most of the time you have to use commands when you talk to Alexa – ""Alexa, switch on the light"", ""switch on the radio"", ""switch it off"" – she does that, but in a way that sounds very polite, almost intimate. So, she performs friendliness. During the interview she would sometimes demonstrate anon2696444391 she uses Alexa, and she would say things like, ""computer, what time is it?"", and Alexa responded and then she said, ""brav, dass ist meine Alexa"" (“well done. That's my Alexa”). I think a lot of people do that even if they don't notice. If Alexa does what they ask it to, they will say something like ""ah, gut"" (“very good”), ""gut gemacht"" (“well done”) or something. So, there are elements of human-pet-like relationships as well. **LS:** It’s interesting anon2696444391 there are fluctuating positions of authority in these relationships. On the one hand, they might report that the device has some kind of linguistic authority, so they adapt their speech, but on the other hand you also find these kinds of owner-pet-like relationships. **BS:** Yeah, I think people are pretty much aware that someone has programmed the device, and when it comes to these notions of authority, they do not believe that Alexa is the authority, they believe the programmer is the authority: the programmer knows best and wouldn’t programme it ‘incorrectly’. **LS:** Since we are talking about research design and methodology, I am curious, anon2696444391 much of your data collection is ethnographic? Are you observing interactions between speakers and their devices at home? **BS:** I have tried, but my informants so far – German, middle-class – don't want me to observe them. They also do not want me to audio-record or film them. People often feel like they have to excuse themselves for using Alexa, and they feel a bit shy or say, ""I didn't actually want to have it, it was just included in something"", or, ""it was given to me as a present"". They feel like they have to excuse the fact that they own these devices, because it’s hard to legitimise giving all of your data to Amazon. So that’s been keeping me from doing more ethnographic research, but in some of my interviews people will start using Alexa while I am interviewing them. So, I do have some small, interactional conversational data. I love this kind of data because you can learn a lot about their relationship to the machine from their inanon2863106368ation patterns: for example, anon2696444391 they assert authority through commands, or perform intimacy and friendliness. **LS:** Since you are working on the topic of human-machine interaction, have you since acquired one of these devices? Are you doing some sort of auto-ethnography? **BS:** I haven't acquired one. I feel that this would be a spy in my flat. I experiment a anon2488317424 bit with Siri. Especially in the beginning of the project, I played around with it a bit more, and I discovered some interesting things, especially in regards to the translation of culturally specific concepts, which may point to the reproduction of cultural knowledge in programming. Similar to the Linguee example I gave at the beginning, I found that voice-controlled digital assistants also directly translate culturally specific concepts, which can sometimes be a anon2488317424 confusing. I remember one specific case from last year: I asked Siri, ""what can I give to the children for Christmas?"", and she said, in German, ""Wie wäre es mit einem hässlichen Pullover?"", which is the German equivalent of, ""anon2696444391 about an ugly sweater"". The concept of ugly Christmas sweaters doesn't really exist in Germany, so I didn't understand her answer and I thought it was almost spooky. I thought, what a crazy answer! Why would I give my children an ugly sweater for Christmas? At some point, I discussed this with some colleagues and they explained to me that in the US you have this idea of the ugly sweater, which is a Christmas sweater, which I hadn't known. And so, this was just a direct translation of the US-American concept of the ugly sweater. It has also been interesting to see anon2696444391 my children interact with digital assistants. In the very beginning, when they first used it, my youngest didn't get the concept of a voice-controlled digital assistant, so she just started to tell Siri stories about her life, like ""I have this anon2488317424 dog and I really like her"" and so on, and Siri would respond, ""sorry, but I can't find this on the internet"". My daughter was really frustrated and said, ""I think Siri is really stupid. Is there a real person sitting on the other end?"". So, that's a really fascinating aspect too; anon2696444391 people adapt to the pragmatic requirements of the devices: which kinds of interactions is the machine able to handle? In the case of a child telling Siri a story, the machine hasn’t been programmed to deal with this; it doesn't know anon2696444391 to react. Interestingly, newer tools also express ‘emotions’, for example via inanon2863106368ation. What I take from this is that programmers have seen in the data that has been collected that many people try to develop a social and emotional bond with the tool and do not want to only interact on technical matters or search for information on the internet. So the data, I believe, has taught programmers that language is more than a referential tool for representing and sharing information. Returning to my point at the beginning, It is the medium that impacts on what we believe to be ‘real’ language. And because digital tools can represent sound, in contrast to writing, the role of sound all of a sudden becomes very important, while it was, in the age of literacy, often hidden or assumed to be irrelevant when it came to notions of correctness." 2,74517,2020-04-17T08:36:04.613Z,13245,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,74497,anon1753543892,anon4046128282,"hello, @anon4046128282 great interview! I was wondering if you could make one of the answers/paragraphs into half to one-page post with one specific topic, to see if that leads to people answering/starting the discussion more? The long-form interviews are great and good to read, but I found that often a lot of the points get lost for the following conversation as many points are touched on so people struggle to latch on. Would you or Britta maybe choose one paragraph and repost it, best with Britta's account?" 3,74569,2020-04-18T13:09:06.463Z,13245,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,74517,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,I don't think anon4046128282 can see your comment. Whisper comments are only visible to staff users (everyone with the mod / admin shield behind their username). 4,74577,2020-04-18T15:55:13.831Z,13245,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,74569,anon1753543892,anon3197437925,I thought leonie is part of the staff since she is in the ethno team. Am I confusing people? 5,74580,2020-04-18T16:48:04.662Z,13245,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,74577,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,Not staff I'm pretty sure.. 6,74584,2020-04-18T20:35:16.243Z,13245,0,8,7,0,1,0,1.6,74577,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:4, topic:13245""]I thought leonie is part of the staff[/quote] Sure, she's a collaborator and in that sense company staff. But she's not a *staff user* in Discourse, which is a technical concept of this software that includes only admin and moderator users. Everyone having the grey shield icon after their username is a staff user (like you, John and me). Everyone else is not, and cannot see whisper mode posts. Usually Discourse tells you when a user cannot see a mention. This works when seeing the mention is prohibited by the access rights of a category. But in this case – whisper mode comments – Discourse does not tell. Basically, you found a bug …" 7,74586,2020-04-18T22:08:49.595Z,13245,0,8,7,0,0,0,1.6,74584,anon1753543892,anon3197437925,"ok, thank you. In this case I will dm her about it :)" 8,76157,2020-05-09T09:35:53.674Z,13245,0,14,13,1,1,0,22.8,74497,anon3379761435,anon4046128282,"Very interesting, @anon4046128282, thanks for sharing. [quote=""anon4046128282, post:1, topic:13245""] This concept of written standard language now interacts with frequency: as soon as you have a certain language phenomenon occurring frequently online, then it might, sooner or later, be considered as correct by programmes and devices like Siri and Alexa. [/quote] I don't understand completely. I am no linguist, but AFAIK: * languages are mostly codified ""after the fact"", typically in conjunction with political events. Some geopolitical quake happens, suddenly you have, let's say, an Albanian state, which promptly summons a convention to release an Albanian grammar and dictionary 1.0. But the basis for that codified language was a pre-existing linguistic community made up of several dialects related to varying degrees. In that community, like BS says, frequency of use matters. Words used more frequently are more likely to end up in the codified version of the language. * In the digital society, an average person is exposed to many more instances of using the language, because we now have social media, and have occasional interactions with many, many people who are not necessarily physically and socially close to us. So, if you model the adoption of language patterns as a diffusion process along a network, social media means adding to that network a lot of long-distance edges. This accelerates dramatically diffusion. Networks scholars speak of *percolation*, because the impact of adding long distance edges to a network that starts with none (""lattice network"") is highly nonlinear. Let's now complicate the model, and assume that adoption of language patterns depends on exposure, but also on an exogenous ""authority"" that tells you what is right and what is not (Académie Française, Accademia danon4205961763 Crusca etc.). We can imagine an initial situation where exposure is limited and local, and the authority can keep it in check, preventing the adoption of the pattern. As you add long-distance edges (social media), adoption gains momentum, and overwhelms the authority's braking effect. Why invoke Alexa at all? It seems you do not need it to explain the phenomenon you are looking at. Am I missing something?" 9,76159,2020-05-09T12:14:15.368Z,13245,2,12,11,2,0,0,67.4,74497,anon4046128282,anon4046128282,"I noticed that when you use [DeepL](https://www.deepl.com/translator) translator to translate English texts to German, it defaults to translating the second person singular pronoun, ""you"", to the formal ""Sie"" in German. Unlike some European languages that distinguish between ""formal/informal"" personal pronouns, such as Spanish: tu/usted, English no longer makes those distinctions. So, it's interesting that a machine-learning powered translation tool would default to the formal (though, in this case, DeepL offers alternative translations at the bottom of the screen using the second person singular, ""du""). The interesting thing about DeepL is that, in contrast to Linguee, it *generates* text for proposed translations, but like Linguee, it reflects cultural norms of politeness. I tried a few different translations and found that the only time DeepL defaulted to ""du"" instead of ""Sie"" is when there was very explicit intimacy between the subject and the object of the sentence, for example: ""I love *you*"", translated to ""Ich liebe *dich*"", or ""*you* are my eldest child"" translated to ""*du* bist mein ältestes Kind"". But that did not work every time: ""*you* are my wife"" translated to ""*Sie* sind meine Frau"", ""*you* are my favourite niece"", translated to ""*Sie* sind meine lieblings Nichte"". It also translated this expert from a T.S. Eliot poem, with the formal pronoun: ![34|689x147](upload://k1zyW7P1EKK055VBAQSJop3y3ZI.png) It would be interesting to learn more about anon2696444391 DeepL learns; if it learns for example from a social *context* in which polite/formal forms of address are used more frequently, or if it responds to the *content* of a sentence and suggests formal and informal forms of address depending on that, or if it learns from individual *users* using certain forms of address more frequently than others." 10,76440,2020-05-13T08:44:20.640Z,13245,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,76159,anon1753543892,anon4046128282,"The use of ""Sie"" and ""du"" is also something that is in flux and often a delicate thing to decide for ""real people talking"" in German. I feel that it becomes more and more acceptable to use ""du"" also in formal settings, for example with University Professors who have been dealing a lot with the angelsachsen model of ""you"". It also has always been influenced by the speakers position and age in comparison to the addressed. A younger person might address an older person with ""Sie"" while being addressed with ""du"" in the same conversation by the older person. After a while of knowing each other offering the ""Du"" to each other is a symbolic act. It signifies knowing each other, trusting and seeing eye to eye. A grammatical construct that relies on this type relationarity leads to questions like: ""is the AI older of younger than me?"" or ""Do the AI and X know each other well?"" A few month ago I did some translation work for the social robot company ""Furhat"". They needed a German version of their diabetic advise robot. I was very unsure anon2696444391 a robot should adress a person. With ""Du"" or ""Sie"". Would be interesting to see with what people feel more comfortable." 11,77390,2020-05-25T20:26:17.723Z,13245,0,9,8,2,1,0,26.8,76159,anon3379761435,anon4046128282,"[quote=""anon4046128282, post:9, topic:13245""] It would be interesting to learn more about anon2696444391 DeepL learns [/quote] You give it a training dataset, I guess. For automated translation, I hear many companies train their algos with European Commission open datasets ([example](https://data.europa.eu/euodp/en/data/dataset/dgt-translation-memory)). The EU pays a small army of translators to render official documents into 20+ languages, so it is a precious resource (and free – the data are open). If that's true, it's not surprising that algos skew towards a professional, rather than personal, use of language." 1,55185,2019-06-14T18:13:10.293Z,10157,3,40,39,495,0,0,2628.0,55185,anon3554387720,anon3554387720," Hey folks, after invitation to join here by @anon659222949 and @anon3828707713 and some busy weeks behind, I finally made it. 🎉 Looking forward to dive into this community as I heard so many good things and see a lot of room to collaborate on the projects I am involved in. **Quick intro about me:** I am Oliver and get really excited by anything related to systems thinking, governance, sociology, psychology, social polarisation and misinformation, alternative economics....solar punk stuff :slight_smile: I also like to dance. Big ecstatic dance fan :) --- ### WorldBrain.io I founded WorldBrain.io, a anon3983078393 ownership business with the goal of battling online misinformation and societal polarisation at scale. We are building open-source tools for people to organise their online research, and build on other people's research to understand complext topics quicker, deeper and with more nuance. Our tools are focused on providing maximum data sovereignty and freedom to move between providers - so no social or data lock-ins and full room for innovating on knowledge management tools. The two main tools we are developing are **Memex** and **Storex**. Also involved are @anon3137039191 and @anon2897324087. --- ### Memex Memex is a browser extension to organise your web research more efficiently. It's a mix of 1. a Google Search for everything you have seen in the past 2. Medium's/GDocs highlighting and commenting features but for the whole web and 3. Pocket's quick organisation features supercharged. You can also save & archive tweets. Memex runs entirely locally, sync between devices happens P2P. All data is stored on your computer. Here you can play with it: [worldbrain.io](http://worldbrain.io) ![com-optimize%20(30)|690x413](upload://oqouoQrAsQOleXR2azWEXNvamXM.gif) Memex is in an MVP stage currently used by 10.000 people and already generating small revenue. We just won the LEDGER Open call and got 200k to add collaboration features to Memex. Imagine being able to search for "lithium mining" across all the websites and papers Elon Musk has read, and seeing and responding to his highlights and notes. --- ### Storex We know that Memex is not going to be useful to everyone and that everyone needs different tools to organise and share their nuanced digital knowledge that is spread across so many services. There is a need for many different tools that are adapted to individuals workflows and requirements. And that is one of the reasons we built Storex: To democratise knowledge creation, ownership and exchange. Storex is the main storage, syncing, searching and sharing library for the data produced with Memex. We are about to add an API so that developers and entrepreneurs can have full access to innovate on their own data. (history, annotations, notes, tags, interaction metadata, browsing paths, content of everything visited) Since Memex is open source they therefore can copy & modify it, add new features that fit their workflows better and still use the same data, or even use 2 Memexes in parallel. But of course you don't need to build another Memex. You can also just build a connection to one of your favourite apps, We think there is a lot of potential for this community to experiment and build on such an infrastructure. For example Edgeryders own crowdtagging platform could build an integration that collects the tags people of the community made and process them there, or people can build recommendation algorithms or autotagging features based on NLP data. --- I am looking forward to learn about your use cases. We are right now in the phase of gathering 10-20 interested projects to identify the common needs for such an infrastructure. Let me know if you'd like to chat more, or have any questions already. More than happy to also jump in a call." 2,55195,2019-06-14T19:15:43.757Z,10157,0,32,31,6,0,0,51.4,55185,anon3828707713,anon3554387720,@anon2945747231 and @anon850704935 check this out! 3,55215,2019-06-15T12:13:50.936Z,10157,1,30,29,4,0,0,46.0,55185,anon3379761435,anon3554387720,"Hello @anon3554387720, good to meet you. I am Alberto, one of the old-timers at Edgeryders. I just installed Memex on my machine, and see anon2696444391 well it meshes with my workflow. I used to be a big del.icio.us user, then imported my bookmarks on to Diigo when that went down. I am still using Diigo, but kind of half-heartedly, so I am ready for trying something else. I am wondering: is there a way that I could add all those pages to Memex without actually having to visit them all again?" 4,55217,2019-06-15T12:20:17.904Z,10157,1,31,30,1,0,0,16.2,55215,anon3554387720,anon3379761435,"Hey @anon3379761435 Yes! There is an import function. For that go to settings > import and then pick your diigo export file. Hope that helps! Oliver" 5,55241,2019-06-16T16:06:52.572Z,10157,2,28,27,2,0,0,25.6,55217,anon3379761435,anon3554387720,"Thanks Oliver. I tried this yesterday but the Memex got stuck, sanon2696444391ing the three flashing dots of ""import in progress"" for several hours. This morning I checked, and verified my exported HTML file had not been imported. Trying again..." 6,55269,2019-06-17T09:48:56.386Z,10157,0,30,29,1,0,0,26.0,55241,anon3554387720,anon3379761435,"Ah that makes sense. We discovered an issue with the Diigo Export format. Will be fixed soon. Sorry for the wait :(" 7,55284,2019-06-17T10:53:23.025Z,10157,0,31,30,4,1,0,71.2,55185,anon659222949,anon3554387720,"Hi Oliver! Welcome to Edgeryders. Great to have you here. [quote=""anon3554387720, post:1, topic:10157""] Imagine being able to search for ""lithium mining"" across all the websites and papers Elon Musk has read, and seeing and responding to his highlights and notes. [/quote] This would be an interesting feature for the IoH fellows to collect leads for the community to discuss. Looking forward to this feature! [quote=""anon3554387720, post:1, topic:10157""] Storex is the main storage, syncing, searching and sharing library for the data produced with Memex. We are about to add an API so that developers and entrepreneurs can have full access to innovate on their own data. (history, annotations, notes, tags, interaction metadata, browsing paths, content of everything visited) [/quote] This is potentially very interesting for the purposes of online ethnography. Imagine that 100 participants of an online conversation on anon1577251828.eu opted in to install a plugin that they could use to load conversations they have elsewhere into an auxillary dataset. For example, they could mark public FB threads, tweets and blog posts as relevant to their own IoH context. This plugin could be smart by identifying usernames and timestamps and thus opening up to expand SSNA to a third-party expanded conversation. The cached content would be saved on their local hard drives and synced to a 'collection' of all the data collected by the participants, which could then also be read and annotated by the ethnographers. This could be anon2373157426 interesting. An interesting aspect of SSNA is that we can identify the local experts of a specific context by looking at subgraphs of the conversation. Through this methodology, we could also identify the third party experts or influencers that might be ""invisibly"" informing our conversation. For example, three people in our conversation might all make comments relating to sustainability, mining and space exploration and might all be frequent readers of Elon Musk. Elon then becomes a third-party node in the auxiliary SSNA graph. What do you think @anon3379761435 and @anon2559300400? There might be some room to do a bit of creative thinking on anon2696444391 to expand SSNA to also understand the conversations the informants are involved in outside of the Edgeryders context." 8,55313,2019-06-17T18:16:20.937Z,10157,1,27,26,3,0,0,25.4,55241,anon3554387720,anon3379761435,"But to make sure we are working with the same bug. Can you make a screenshot of your console? to do so press cmd/ctrl + alt + j (on mac) to get the tab's console, when you are in the tab running the import. then on ""console"". if nothing is visible there go to chrome://extensions and enable ""developer mode"", then go to ""background page"" on the memex card. Then again to ""console"" and see if there are any error messages. Thanks :)" 9,55322,2019-06-17T21:05:24.025Z,10157,1,27,26,1,0,0,15.4,55313,anon3379761435,anon3554387720,"I use Firefox. The `TypeError: ...` message is the one that appeared when I launched the import." 10,55562,2019-06-21T15:48:44.130Z,10157,1,23,22,1,0,0,29.6,55185,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,Thank you very much Oliver (@anon3554387720) ! the projects you are working on and sharing are very interesting. It was also great to meet you during the community call earlier this week. There we touched a bit on the topic of confirmation bias as well as the value of chosen groups. I would like to ask you to address your position and ideas and anon2696444391 they are reflected in Worldbrain. I think it would be a very interesting point to discuss here as well :). 11,55637,2019-06-24T18:27:41.073Z,10157,0,22,21,1,0,0,24.4,55562,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,thanks @anon1753543892 for the encouragement to write a bit more about it. I will write my views up and post it as a new forum post. 12,55638,2019-06-24T18:49:08.862Z,10157,0,23,22,5,0,0,29.6,55322,anon3554387720,anon3379761435,"ah thanks for the updates. This will be an easy bug to fix. Opened a github issue here: https://github.com/WorldBrain/Memex/issues/842 To fix it for yourself, just open the file you have in an editor and then find the line with the entry ""http://about:blank"" and delete that one. Finishing the preparation step of the import (where it gets stuck now) should work then. If not there may be other urls with similiar structures. (all with a ``:`` sign in the url after the ``https://``should throw this error)" 13,55689,2019-06-25T10:27:25.936Z,10157,0,24,23,1,1,0,39.8,55185,anon3011728773,anon3554387720,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:1, topic:10157""] ### Memex Memex is a browser extension to organise your web research more efficiently. It’s a mix of 1. a Google Search for everything you have seen in the past 2. Medium’s/GDocs highlighting and commenting features but for the whole web and 3. Pocket’s quick organisation features supercharged. You can also save & archive tweets. [/quote] @anon3554387720 Love the idea and UX. Will start playing with it to see if it becomes a habit." 14,55707,2019-06-25T15:30:58.384Z,10157,1,23,22,2,0,0,19.6,55185,anon3379761435,anon3554387720,"Indeed, the import was now successful. I will try out Memex and see if it meshes with my workflow. One question, though, Oliver. In your other post, I read: [quote=""anon3554387720, post:1, topic:10221""] This central data store also houses your own social graph, so whichever service you eventually use, you can take your friends with you. [/quote] I may have misunderstood Memex. I thought it stored my browsing history locally. Was I wrong? Is there some kind of syncing to this ""central data store""?" 15,55738,2019-06-26T10:32:14.606Z,10157,1,21,20,2,1,0,34.2,55707,anon3554387720,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:14, topic:10157""] I may have misunderstood Memex. I thought it stored my browsing history locally. Was I wrong? Is there some kind of syncing to this “central data store”? [/quote] There are 2 different concepts here. Memex is the client that allows you to search your history, annotate and (soon) collaborate with others. Storex is the underyling storage, sync and collaboration infrastructure . The ""centrality"" of it is meant to say that all data generated by Memex (and in the future other apps you use) are stored in Storex. The location can be either on your computer, your own server, or wherever you like to have this storage being put." 16,55917,2019-07-01T08:45:35.859Z,10157,1,22,21,6,1,0,39.4,55738,anon3379761435,anon3554387720," [quote=""anon3554387720, post:15, topic:10157""] The “centrality” of it is meant to say that all data generated by Memex (and in the future other apps you use) are stored in Storex. The location can be either on your computer, your own server, or wherever you like to have this storage being put. [/quote] Aha. So, two questions: 1. I am now running Memex. Where am I storing the data? 1. Do I get to decide who and when accesses my browsing history? How do I do that?" 17,55930,2019-07-01T09:49:32.695Z,10157,1,21,20,1,1,0,119.2,55917,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:16, topic:10157""] Aha. So, two questions: [/quote] Scrap that, @anon3554387720. I just checked your [privacy policy](https://www.notion.so/Privacy-Policy-061ac77759f8445282c36fcf6702a81c), and it has the answers I wanted. By the way, congrats: that's a *really good* privacy policy page. I love all the ""How do I verify that's true?"" questions. @anon3197437925, let's make a note of Memex's privacy policy as a good practice we ourselves might get inspiration from!" 18,55981,2019-07-01T15:59:22.022Z,10157,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,55930,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,I agree. It is excellent. 19,67941,2019-12-25T23:34:03.035Z,10157,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,55185,anon3379761435,anon3554387720,"@anon3554387720, FYI I just [reported a bug](https://github.com/WorldBrain/Memex/issues/917) on your GitHub. Thanks again for making this software." 20,77224,2020-05-22T09:22:19.240Z,10157,0,9,8,2,1,0,11.8,55185,anon1753543892,anon3554387720," Hello @anon3554387720, How are you these days? I know that one of your many projects led you recently into setting up an alternative co-working space, which is especially challenging in theses quarantine times. A lot of plans have had to be altered for many people! We are now working on an online summit on the topic of ""Making a Living"", there will also be an event on coworking spaces, wondered if you would be interested: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/summit-2-supporting-the-recovery-of-the-co-working-sector/13421 # And then there is another online webinar I thought you, or some of the people involved in worldbrain might be interested in: [quote=""anon3554387720, post:1, topic:10157""] ### [WorldBrain.io ](http://WorldBrain.io) I founded [WorldBrain.io ](http://WorldBrain.io), a anon3983078393 ownership business with the goal of battling online misinformation and societal polarisation at scale. We are building open-source tools for people to organise their online research, and build on other people’s research to understand complext topics quicker, deeper and with more nuance. Our tools are focused on providing maximum data sovereignty and freedom to move between providers - so no social or data lock-ins and full room for innovating on knowledge management tools. The two main tools we are developing are **Memex** and **Storex** . Also involved are @anon3137039191 and @anon2897324087. [/quote] ## This one: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/webinar-making-sense-of-a-covid-19-world-applying-collective-intelligence-to-big-data-3rd-of-june/13537" 1,62568,2019-10-30T16:18:05.582Z,11316,1,14,13,16,0,0,102.8,62568,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"I have already reported on the [workshop on online identities](/t/10868) led by @anon3554654177 at the NGI Forum in Helsinki. As I read more about the topic, I find many words and expressions that are highly specific of that intellectual space, and they are not necessarily super intuitive for a nonspecialist who is trying to form an opinion. So, I feel the need for a small glossary where I can stash their definitions, and come back to when I need to refresh one. Lately I came across [this post](https://www.theinternetofthings.eu/roadmap-identity-creation-people-and-objects), and I decided to start writing one. I'm making it a wiki in case others want to help. ### Disposable identities > Disposable identities are temporary attribute-based identities describing a smart contract between a receiver and a supplier of a service, ie. rent, leasing a car, energy for a home, paying taxes, basically any service. I am not sure about the ""smart contract"" part, but the ""disposable"" part seems to point to identities that are ""one shot"": you use them to secure a certain service, and then never again. In An example close to the experience of many of us is disposable email addresses: these are addresses you only use when you sign up to an online service, and only to do one thing: validate the email address. Once validated, you throw them away, or [they even self-destruct](https://10minutemail.com/10MinuteMail/index.html) (but now need to store your login information in a safe place). You can also get disposable phone numbers, and there is even a fun [Fake name generator](http://www.fakenamegenerator.com/) you can use to confuse algorithms. Ok, but then anon2696444391 would it work to rent a car based on a disposable identity? When you rent a car, you need to sanon2696444391 your driving license, for the very good reason that you carry responsibility and liabilities for any bad deed you might be carrying out with that car. It would be nice to rent one with a disposable ID, but I don't think Avis is going to be willing to give you the keys. ### Trust framework I think the document refers to the [IoT Trust Framework](https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/doc/2018/iot-trust-framework-v2-5/). This is basically a checklist meant to assess the trustability of a connected device. If the device does not meet the framework's requirements (that is, if one or more ""must have"" characteristics are not there), then the device is not trustable. ### Provable computing I cannot find online definitions of this. By analogy with [provable security](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provable_security), I imagine it to be a type of computing which does *not* happen in a black box; you can verify that the computing really treats the input data in the way it says on the label. + In science, we have a similar concept called [reproducibility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproducibility). It comes down to publishing not just your results, but also your data and the code to crunch them. ### Self-sovereign identities > Self-sovereign identity is the concept that people and businesses can store their own identity data on their own devices, and provide it efficiently to those who need to validate it, without relying on a central repository of identity data. [...] There are three parts to identity: **claims** , **proofs** , and **attestations**. ([source](https://bitsonblocks.net/2017/05/17/gentle-introduction-self-sovereign-identity/))" 2,62594,2019-10-30T20:48:01.564Z,11316,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,62568,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Thank you Alberto. This is a very good start, and your readings are very helpful and raising new interpretations. All of this is anon2373157426 in flux and I hope in the coming time we can engage anon1577251828 in this. The main argument is this: As we move into a hybrid world, no longer analogue + data in digital devices, but every object digitally addressable and traceable (item level tagging), a world of #IoT, Big Data, and AI whoever owns this relationship of one person -one number – currently companies with shareholder obligations and national governments with selected self -interests – is given a large number of extra layers of capabilities that were not negotiated in the registration process, are un democratically non accountable (non-transparent algorithms) and acquire a pro-active capacity that is not shared (or only shared when beneficial to the country or company) with the person whose number is used. The text is here: https://www.theinternetofthings.eu/sites/default/files/docs/Rationale%20for%20an%20ETSI%20Group28102019v2.pdf Interestingly just a few days ago a very large group of organizations came out on this very topic: # WhyID: Protecting Our Identity in the Digital Age https://www.accessnow.org/whyid-letter/ So our interest is timely and our solutions are radical (going down to heart of the matter breaking the current value model totally), but realistic and legally enforceable, or at least that is where we will, in our NGI Forward project, will be working hard on." 3,63346,2019-11-07T15:35:57.529Z,11316,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,62594,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"Wow, I really like the WhyID letter, and have decided to sign it. > Those who promote these [digital ID] programmes must first critically evaluate and answer these basic WhyID questions, along with providing evidence of such rationale. In addition to answering these questions, these actors must actively engage and consult all actors. If there is no compelling rationale, evidence-based policy plan, and measures to avoid and repair harms, there should be no digital identity programme rolled out. After DECODE, I am now seeing a ""Polanyian pushback"" everywhere, so I may not be entirely objective here. But it seems to me that WhyID is fully compatible with that interpretation. The fight to control a single source ID layer can be interpreted as an obvious consequence of Big Data/Big Tech/Big Money, and these initiatives can be interpreted as society's reaction against this." 4,63402,2019-11-07T21:41:49.983Z,11316,1,10,9,1,0,0,42.0,63346,anon1732761404,anon3379761435,"There is a similar project by Omidyar network #GoodID, which I think #WhyID is a reaction to. It's truly a fascinating topic, identity - but there is anon2488317424 by way of international law - the real deal with identity is the intrinsic power in ""papers please"" that a government can exert of its (or other governments') citizens, and what that means both internally to that country (social benefits, business opportunities, etc) and externally (migration, for instance). GoodID comes from this type of argument: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/04/data-oil-digital-world-asset-tech-giants-buy-it/ - i.e. identity is a resource, it's valuable, and tradeable. Maybe the FIDIS project can provide some interesting knowledge: http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-use-cases-scenarios/" 5,63404,2019-11-07T22:11:50.386Z,11316,1,9,8,2,0,0,16.8,63402,anon3379761435,anon1732761404,"Interesting about #GoodID, @anon1732761404, I was not aware of it. What do you think about identity as a tradeable commodity? A month ago Rob and @anon659222949 and I went to MyData 2019, and we found this: [quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:10893""] To my surprise, the MyData community seems to have a rough consensus that monetizing personal data is not a long-term sustainable way to run a data economy. The person that came up with the clearest formulation was perhaps Finnish lawyer Jussi Mäkinnen (not verbatim, I am quoting from my notes): > When copyright was invented in the 17th century, lawmakers conjured up a new property right, the right to own something immaterial. They knew it was a bit of a ghost, with anon2488317424 grounds in terms of the legal system of the time, but they wanted a way to reward the creators and their publishers. That, anon2696444391ever, created more long-term problems than it solved. So, we have learned from the copyright story that legislating private ownership of personal data is probably a bad idea. [/quote] Ingrid Schneider's super-good talk at the same conference went on to list four main proposals around the economic models for a data society. One of them was [quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:10893""] + Individual data ownership + micropayments (Jaron Lanier, 2015). [/quote] But, as I said, at MyData these ideas seemed to be shrugged off as old and overtly neoliberal, not ideas that a respectable adult can really entertain, and certainly not in Europe. *A fortiori* this should apply to identity, no?" 6,63405,2019-11-07T22:15:44.789Z,11316,1,9,8,1,0,0,41.8,63404,anon1732761404,anon3379761435,"> What do you think about identity as a tradeable commodity? In Sweden, all formal identities are tradeable commodities owned by the government - social security numbers, car plate registration, corporate identities, information about grades, address, school, name, number of children, income, taxes, etc. Most major public authorities in Sweden finance their IT by selling personal data to various entities. For instance, one major IT-security scandal reported by Svenska dagbladet (big Swedish newspaper) about 2-3 years ago concerned the sudden, but brief, unavailability of the Social Security Agency (Försäkringskassan) databases to private insurers in the middle of the night. Not such a terrible security incident in my view (""oh no! an insurance company could not purchase citizens from the SSA for two hours on a Thursday night!"") - but it's extremely engrained in Swedish society. On principle, I'm not so comfortable with this - I do not consider myself, not even my formal administrative incarnation under Swedish public services, a tradeable good and I do not see others this way either. But I recognise it's one of the administrative models that exist in the EU, and yeah." 7,63406,2019-11-07T22:18:54.602Z,11316,1,10,9,1,0,0,42.0,63405,anon1732761404,anon1732761404,"My ""favourite"" government identity management system in the EU is the German system. I think it respects the need of individuals for unlinkability and diversity, and also that it divides power between institutions and citizens in a scalable way. A different way of solving it - which I suspect is the backdrop of the #WhyID campaign from AccessNow - is the anglosaxon way: having no centralized government identity management at all, per se (""why government ID?""). Maybe fidis.net will contain some more interesting thoughts for this discussion. It spawned, for instance, this Open Access Journal (which alas closed in 2010): https://link.spranon2945747231r.com/journal/12394" 8,63427,2019-11-08T07:12:01.765Z,11316,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,63406,anon3379761435,anon1732761404,"Wow FIDIS is super interesting! I think I am finally starting to get what @anon3554654177 is at. I just finished reading [this scenario](http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-use-cases-scenarios/ambient-intelligence-putting-the-machines-in-control/aml-scenario-i/). Looks dystopian to me – the guy is spending his whole holiday doing the future equivalent of accepting cookies – but maybe it's just kneejerk conservatisms (""kids these days""). I am, after all, in my 50s. But this is dystopian for real: > Who cares about explicit informed consent when your wife is in labour?! Which bring us back to Oskar van Deventer's nightmare scenario: [quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:10868""] Q: What prevents service providers from asking for all of the individual’s data, and the person accepts because she needs the service? A: This is my nightmare. You cross the Chinese or US border, and then some kind of data vacuum cleaner empties your wallet. This might require issuers policy, stating once and for all what can be done with those data. But I do not yet know anon2696444391 to solve it. [/quote]" 9,63442,2019-11-08T08:40:00.000Z,11316,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,62568,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Hi Amelia, Great to see you in Turin and I will be in touch in mail as well, sending you the Disposable Identities text I will put online as well next week. The German example. Is indeed fascinating in its historical perspective, more later! Greetings, Rob" 10,75701,2020-05-04T15:25:06.878Z,11316,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,62568,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"@anon3554654177 I am working through the notes of our call in order to produce a post. It is slow going because I want to make sure I understand the low level of the technology, no cutting corners. Something I forgot to ask you in that call: what are your thoughts about Bruce Sterling's pamphlet ""The Epic Struggle of the Internet of Things""? He seems to expect a messier scenario than you and your associates, or am I wrong?" 11,75707,2020-05-04T17:37:49.000Z,11316,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,75701,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Hello Alberto, If you want to understand it from a technical point of view (which I do not) then you have to talk with other people in the project. If you want I can give you names. My understanding is always intuitive and related to larger trends that can not be immediately grasped. I never read that text from Bruce, but yes he will no doubt be messier then my associates as my associates in this endeavor are structured and embedded in crypto, software development and business models, apart from being interested in the balance between accountability and anonymity in a society where citizens have self sovereign identities. Greetings, Rob" 12,77083,2020-05-20T16:19:01.148Z,11316,1,5,4,1,0,0,11.0,75707,anon1753543892,anon3554654177,"@anon3554654177 could you maybe give a short update on your DI project, where it stands now? jus 2-3 paragraphs :)" 13,77100,2020-05-20T17:43:23.000Z,11316,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,77083,anon3554654177,anon1753543892,"Hi Maria, The latest is here: [https://www.disposableidentities.eu/about-disposable-identities-community-statement](https://www.disposableidentities.eu/about-disposable-identities-community-statement) Cheers, Rob" 1,74016,2020-04-08T11:46:52.085Z,13171,3,15,14,3,0,0,78.0,74016,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"*This thread is where we are collecting and structuring our notes from the group video chat. It is a collective notepad, so please add your own notes if you took them or see that something important is missing.* ### Participants: @anon1753543892 , @anon3203746736 , @anon3828707713, @anon294806887, @anon ### Check-in: We started uf the call with “reactivated” Edgeryder Massimo recounting his initial contact with Edgeryders in 2013 and everyone sharing their current national and personal reaction to the corona crisis and the measures against it. # Status Update: Edgeryders currently is working to provide 3 impact lines: 1. **“Therapy”:** Helping people to feel better and reevaluate their situation. Community calls like “How to cope with loss of work” and conversation threads like “This made me think..”) 2. **“Connection”**: Connecting people and projects to empower the creators to realise their projects and avoid the waste of resources. This also includes help with finding and applying to funding or creating crowdfunding campaigns. 3. **“Learning”**: Looking back at reactions to previous crissi and learning from the current crisis and people's responses for future developments. # Proposals for next steps: **Create meaningful webinars/conversation rounds to address points 1-3.** ### ABOUT The Webinars: * Here people can propose webinars: [Webinar & Community Call Schedule: Proposals/Wishlist](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/webinar-community-call-schedule-proposals-wishlist/13044/4) * We have our own self-hosted video rooms (now.anon1577251828) * We can do webinars that have restricted chat access: * Two levels of participation: Some people can just listen in, who have been there before can join into the conversation. * One version: Prefilm webinar and have the person who did the webinar aktive in the chat to directly answer questions * Crowdfunding: for conversations you get your question featured in the chat * Signup Forms: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/ helps info, call quality, consent and follow up * Webkit: We can quickly put together minisites around specific themes that pick up content from the platform by taggs. Example: https://work.anon1577251828.eu/ #### Our resources: * We can set up such a minisite around topics like for a recurring webinar * Community management * Outreach ## Concrete ACTION POINT from the call: Making one call for *mapmakers*. Align mapping initiatives before we double the learning and efforts in mapping as well. **Ask and answer:** *Who is doing mapping attempts? How are they doing it? What is working well - what is not working well?* ## We want to set up a call focusing on mapping in 3 weeks time: # Proposed date: 04/05/2020 MAY the 4TH be with you: Mapping our way through the universe # *Please comment below with projects and speakers we should connect to for this or your examples of good or bad coordination!* ## What else is being developed: An app that connects apps like telegram and WhatsApp with an anon1577251828 chatbot that creates an account and posts for you on the platform. This way people can easily forward good posts. But it is still experimental. ## Context for the proposed actions: Massimo and Liliana as well as many community and team members kept stressing the issue of parallel developments and a lack of coordination. Massimo described a very concrete example where he had had a call with @anon Liliana added that she also sees many local efforts not being properly connected and that she sees the main need in some type of mapping for projects. She invited Massimo to join the telegram of @anon3554654177 Disposable Identity projects as she sees the conversations and interviews already happening there as good case studies. ### The findings of the conversation: * The problems: The other developers do not want to collaborate further and data regulations also complicates the next step and them sharing their data. * There are two approaches: developing something that works as fast as possible and is open and dealing directly with the proper data restrictions was difficult, so people worked with systems of potentially questionable data. * Conducting and analysing interviews and case studies are necessary. ## We need everyone’s inputs into what is going on, what initiatives people are already working on - and anon2696444391 we can support efforts to cope with the COVID29 crisis. Let’s map this clusterfu* together! ### What do you think about the above? Share your thoughts in a comment below!" 2,74044,2020-04-08T20:19:59.252Z,13171,0,13,12,1,0,0,52.6,74016,anon995479489,anon1753543892,"With regards to connection, I think of mapping as having several types or levels: 1. Maps that connect people - this use case is satisfied to a certain extent by platforms with a social components like Facebook, LinkedIn, and Edgeryders even if you are not able to view the map. Some other platforms like [Now What?!](https://www.nowwhat2020.com) These are useful as they give us a starting point for a conversation and help us understand pathways of trust to others. But the ""people map"" does not do a great job of supporting collaboration because the profiles of the connected individuals do not provide sufficient information to understand what someone is working on. 2. Maps that connect projects - I agree with Liliana that vaping between projects is very important. They give us view into what projects are working on which is essential if we want to collaborate, coordinate, and reduce duplication of effort. The ""project map"" helps us find aligned projects, but they may not provide sufficient still requires us a ""cold"" call or email to the people involved, which may or may not be on the map. To make project maps most useful, the profile could include things like the specifics of what is being worked on (background, methods, hypothesis), what is needed, what is offered, and anon2696444391 they would like to collaborate with other projects or anon2696444391 to get involved. 3. Maps that connect concepts (offline) - these are commonly called mind maps. A *mind map* is a diagram used to visually organize information and can be siloed to the individual or worked on in a group. These types of maps are helpful for understanding concepts and ideas. 4. Maps that connect ideas, information, and context (online) - This does not really exist except as far as I know in the [bridgit.io](https://bridgit.io) alpha. We call it a ""Collective Knowledge map"" but would be more accurate to say that it is an interactive, self generating collective online knowledge map. The beautiful thing about this notion is that for the first time it actually enables us to think and learn together online. We think of the possibility of planetary cognition - participants create bridges between two content snippets with a relationship thus externalizing the relationships in their mind as reflected by connections between ideas they find online. The map being collective means that all participants use the same map; individuals can specify privacy for what they post (e.g., private, a specific group, public). This creates the possibility of a) ubiquitous context - access to deep layers of context for any idea on the web, b) on-page presence - know and interact with others within the researcher community while on the same web page, c) democratized linking - Anyone can create deep links from/to any page, and d) Bridgit apps - organizations can expose their information and interactions on any relevant web page. This creates the possibility of people collaborating on knowledge building with coordination, but also enables the possibility of connecting ""in-context"" on the web page or ""out-of-context"" via email or direct message with people who are working with or reviewing the same information. Duplication of knowledge building efforts can be eliminated within a community that shares information and builds knowledge collectively. A solution like this requires a browser overlay which can be implemented via a browser extension, a web app, and/or a mobile app. Anyway, I hope this is helpful for the mapping conversation. I am happy to participate." 3,74071,2020-04-09T10:47:02.230Z,13171,0,12,11,1,0,0,37.4,74016,anon388720932,anon1753543892,"Hello maria, hello everyone, for a mapping project we did a couple of years ago in brussels we have collected an [excel list of mappers](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1u-154eiErbBquJiaLbz0lyGK1x7-KidMLYZWi7saTw0/edit?usp=sharing). maybe you find someone interesting there, you would like to invite. cheers" 4,74449,2020-04-15T23:54:12.108Z,13171,2,9,8,1,0,0,31.8,74016,anon995479489,anon1753543892," As a next step in the work done in the World Health Organization’s Infodemic Management consultation, the Covid19 InfoImmunity project is organizing the first design challenge to respond to the Infodemic. The [Covid19 Infodemic Design Challenge](https://www.eventbrite.com/e/covid19-infodemic-design-challenge-tickets-102736754398?aff=eemailordconf&utm_campaign=order_confirm&utm_medium=email&ref=eemailordconf&utm_source=eventbrite&utm_term=viewevent) is a five-day, entirely online collaborative design challenge from Thursday May 7th to Monday May 11th. @anon3828707713 We would be excited if Edgeryders (or the group of folks on this thread) wanted to be part of the organizing team or a partner. Also, we are doing a Coronavirus hackathon this weekend and welcome any that want to join the Covid19 InfoImmunity team. Email me at anon995479489@anon" 6,74454,2020-04-16T07:38:15.976Z,13171,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,74449,anon1753543892,anon995479489,"Sounds good. I would be interested in contributing maybe something to ""simplify knowledge"", but I am not sure anon2696444391 the time commitment is to be understood. It starts on the 7th in the afternoon and ends in the afternoon on the 11th. Would one have to subscribe to be at there quasi full-time or could one say commit 2 hours per day in that timeframe? (There are already other projects in that time I also have to tend to, as for many others as well)" 7,74490,2020-04-16T15:15:57.886Z,13171,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,74454,anon995479489,anon1753543892,"It is meant to be a team effort, whereby people contribute anon2696444391ever works out for the team to complete a design. While some people may work quasi-full time or more, others may make a significant contribution in a shorter amount of time. We will match people to teams if they do not have one." 8,75176,2020-04-27T15:25:28.151Z,13171,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,74490,anon2860100070,anon995479489,"Hi all, I have had some challenging weeks again, co-writing 2 Eanon3011728773+ proposals and a local proposal for a Belgian grant. I have 'joined' the call of today as I had it in my agenda but I did not see anyone in Zoom. Are these calls talking place yet? Cheers, Liliana." 9,75177,2020-04-27T15:26:11.881Z,13171,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,75176,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"@anon2860100070, we had to leave zoom. I will send you a privat message with a link to our new tool" 10,75179,2020-04-27T15:27:16.883Z,13171,1,8,7,1,1,0,11.6,74449,anon2860100070,anon995479489,"[quote=""anon995479489, post:4, topic:13171""] the organizing team [/quote] Hi Daveed, anon2696444391 is this going? How can I be of any support?" 11,75180,2020-04-27T15:27:19.124Z,13171,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,74016,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"# Announcement: **We had to pause all public Edgeryders calls for the moment to sort out an alternative option to Zoom and ensure the reliability and security of that tool. We are doing this due to recent reports about Zoom’s data [breaches in security and innappropriate behavior](https://www.fastcompany.com/90487814/the-zoom-privacy-and-security-issues-you-still-have-to-worry-about?partner=rss&utm_campaign=rss%252Bfastcompany&utm_content=rss&utm_medium=feed&utm_source=rss&fbclid=IwAR1RmFYHeLGjdudeRSS1sHPKDRvUWe8AFJ7Q5HeW2xoSlI-2qJyzQAsQ7FI) as well as due to a recent direct experience of a “zoombomb” attack at one of our community calls.** **We will update here and in individual post regarding the topic as soon as we can.** # Update: ***We now can ensure safe calls with rsvp lists. For the calls that is enables for a link is posted for the connected post. State your interest to join ahead of time in that post and we will add you to the list so you can join via the specific anon1577251828 call link.*** Hello Dear Community, this post is a wiki which we will be continuously updating and pin to gather and inform about all ongoing community calls. ## Weekly calls 1. **Weekly Covid2019 Community response Call; Every Monday 17:00 CEST** While we are forced to keep a physical distance to each other we want to come together regularly to discuss our and your challenges, plans and responses. As the Edgeryders team, we want to find ways to help our community and beyond to get through this crisis." 12,75181,2020-04-27T15:27:59.229Z,13171,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,75180,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,for today the links are only provided via direct message if interest is anouced 13,75194,2020-04-27T16:52:33.588Z,13171,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,75179,anon995479489,anon2860100070,"Hi @anon2860100070 Would love to have you present an expert session on collective intelligence in the covid and post-civid contexts for the [Infodemic Design Challenge](https://www.eventbrite.com/e/covid19-infodemic-design-challenge-tickets-102736754398t). Also help with recruiting judges and other experts to speak on misinformation, sense making, and other topics germane to responding to the Infodemic." 14,75314,2020-04-29T10:00:53.776Z,13171,1,8,7,1,1,0,41.6,75194,anon2860100070,anon995479489,"[quote=""anon995479489, post:13, topic:13171""] Would love to have you present an expert session on collective intelligence [/quote] Hi @anon995479489, perfect! This is a very concrete contribution in which I am happy to participate. How long should this presentation be? who is the audience? when exactly do you want me to present it? I have another possible speaker. Michel Bauwens has been 'mapping' and supporting people to get together around covid initiatives, also a solidarity movement in Portugal has grown incredible and Stela can also speak about it. Let me know if contacting them is fine, and let me also know some details on timing to be more concrete with them. Cheers, Liliana." 15,75315,2020-04-29T10:02:34.313Z,13171,1,8,7,1,1,0,11.6,74016,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:1, topic:13171""] 04/05/2020 MAY [/quote] Hi Maria, I am not sure if this initiative is going on. If not, let's try to join our efforts on supporting @anon995479489 's initiative. How do you see that?" 16,75345,2020-04-29T11:25:07.063Z,13171,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,75315,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"not currently @anon2860100070 , we need some topical anon3983078393s for this. If you and/or @anon995479489, for example, would be available to be that I would help you with scheduling and fine-tuning for the platform." 17,75463,2020-04-30T10:31:04.161Z,13171,1,8,7,1,1,0,11.6,74016,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:1, topic:13171""] Edgeryders currently is working to provide 3 impact lines: 1. **“Therapy”:** Helping people to feel better and reevaluate their situation. Community calls like “How to cope with loss of work” and conversation threads like “This made me think…”) 2. **“Connection”** : Connecting people and projects to empower the creators to realise their projects and avoid the waste of resources. This also includes help with finding and applying to funding or creating crowdfunding campaigns. 3. **“Learning”** : Looking back at reactions to previous crissi and learning from the current crisis and people’s responses for future developments. [/quote] Going in this direction, I would love to share what I have been doing in this 'crisis'. Could we set up the webinar in that direction? and also talk about activities that are going on in the covid community? I have not heard from @anon995479489 yet" 18,75464,2020-04-30T10:31:53.409Z,13171,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,75463,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,Are there notes from our 28th April call? 19,75489,2020-04-30T15:15:19.636Z,13171,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,75314,anon995479489,anon2860100070,"Hi Liliana The presentation would be a one hour. The audience will be people and teams participating the challenge, who are building solutions to the Infodemic. The talks will be next weekend in the late afternoon or evening your time. In terms of timing, we are putting together a Google Sheet that enables expert speakers to select the timing they want and to provide several sentences about there talk. Yes, please reach out to Michael and Stela. Thanks" 20,75490,2020-04-30T15:16:34.593Z,13171,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,75345,anon995479489,anon1753543892,"Hi Maria, I am available :)" 21,75590,2020-05-03T10:16:29.937Z,13171,1,8,7,1,1,0,26.6,74016,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:1, topic:13171""] 04/05/2020 [/quote] @anon1753543892 Let's start on the 11th of May with the first impact line of work: **“Therapy”:** Helping people to feel better and reevaluate their situation. Community calls like “How to cope with loss of work” and conversation threads like “This made me think…”) Format: Open Dialog Facilitator: Liliana Method: Create a Community/Solidarity board on 'therapy' topics." 22,75591,2020-05-03T10:17:29.743Z,13171,1,8,7,1,1,0,11.6,75489,anon2860100070,anon995479489,"[quote=""anon995479489, post:19, topic:13171""] Google Sheet [/quote] Hi @anon995479489 Great! Could you give me access to the spreadsheet, and put me in contact with Michael and Stela as I do no know them, please?" 23,75680,2020-05-04T12:07:42.391Z,13171,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,75590,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"Great, which tie of the day were you thinking and who do you a\want to invite?" 24,76670,2020-05-15T15:20:20.093Z,13171,1,5,4,1,1,0,11.0,75591,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:22, topic:13171""] Michael and Stela [/quote] @anon995479489, I get it! I got confused as I see the name Michael, and I meant Michel. And I thought that you were talking about someone else. Is this still appreciated? I can contact them, I speak to them regularly. But from what I understand, the event is this weekend and next weekend. Is this correct?" 25,76671,2020-05-15T15:25:06.038Z,13171,0,5,4,1,0,0,21.0,75680,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"We could start on the 25th of May (or another day on that week) and open it up to the community. By creating a page apart for it, I can tag people and also share it on social media. Specially, I would like to invite my friends from the Agile Learning Centers as I have been setting up EU Eanon3011728773+ projects with them, and that is part of what I would like to share with this Edgeryders community. We can setup 2 calls about Therapy, 2 about Connection, 2 about Learning." 26,76682,2020-05-15T17:45:21.551Z,13171,1,5,4,1,0,0,11.0,76670,anon995479489,anon2860100070,"@anon2860100070 Apologies for the confusion. Spell check probably changed Michel to Michael. Yes, I think their participation as either jury or mentors would be great. Would be happy to have you as a jury as we as mentor. Jury members just give feedback on demo day pitches 6-8p EST on May 24th. They can also watch recording and give feedback via Google form early in the following week." 27,76759,2020-05-18T13:12:15.257Z,13171,1,5,4,0,1,0,6.0,76682,anon2860100070,anon995479489,"[quote=""anon995479489, post:26, topic:13171""] 6-8p EST [/quote] Hi Daveed, midnight is a bit too challenging for me. I can support as Jury, watch the video recordings and give feedback via a Google form that you sent me. As a mentor, I can be available every day at 5pm CEST. Let me know anon2696444391 to proceed for that. Video conference with some teams? Best, Liliana." 28,76766,2020-05-18T13:35:12.338Z,13171,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,76759,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"@anon2860100070, is there any specific help that you need at this point? Could you make a dedicated post explaining the project, so it can be easier shared, discussed and contributed to?" 1,75235,2020-04-28T08:44:10.390Z,13333,0,11,10,7,0,0,52.2,75235,anon901895853,anon901895853,"Hello all, I'm using the activity halt of my company to look into more sustainable models of accountancy, this after understanding that if you go to close to classical economical models you get yourself in the ratrace, something that i'm trying to avoid all my professional life already So i started reading the latest paper from Michel Bauwens:[Accounting For Planetary Survival](https://p2pfoundation.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/AccountingForPlanetarySurvival_def.pdf) and got really inspired by it's REA model, but also the one of Guerilla Translation, and already tried to incorporate the Open Value Network from Sensorica (ping @anon790468754) So i took a blank page and started noting down the different principles, but once again i had the feeling constructing a complete new model, in line of the values of my predecessors... And so i asked myself: why am i not capable of taking over the working models. Are there any of the accountancy and indirectly organisational protocols that are **Out-of-the-box** ready? So my question is, are there somewhere the resources here available to create coherent accountancy with the values i want to deliver (open source, collective decision making, ecological impact, doughnut economy,...) ?" 2,75264,2020-04-28T11:55:27.873Z,13333,1,8,7,1,0,0,56.6,75235,anon3379761435,anon901895853,"Hello @anon901895853, that is a very interesting problem you pose. Here's a few thoughts, based on skimming the *Accounting* paper you linked (thanks!) and my own experience as – I guess – Edgeryders's *de facto* comptroller, reasonably versed in double entry accounting not only in theory, but in the practice of a small firm. I have three thoughs to contribute: ### 1. Where is your data source? Accounting (of any type, even just making a list of things that happen or things you have) is very, very useful. Even small businesses quickly outgrow human short-term memory. Reorganizing accounting information into a coherent whole can be intellectually satisfying. But here's the catch: assembling the accounting information is not easy, at all. You need to keep a close watch on everything you do, and record it. And I mean *everything*: if you lose or forget part of the data, your whole information system is compromised. There is a reason why the popular image of the accounting clerk is that of a fussy person, attentive to detail. What makes good quality accounting accessible even to small firms in this age is electronic banking. If: 1. You do all of your transactions via a bank. 2. You have online access to your bank account (ideally via API) *Then* the data collection phase is 90% done for you. For something like 20 EUR a month, you can get supergood accounting SaaS platforms, that import your banking data. All you need to do is to interpret each one of them: this expense went to buy a depreciable asset, that was a salary payment and so on. The viability of alternative models of accounting depend on what other (non-financial) information they need, and anon2696444391 hard it is to get it. For example, the Guerrilla Translations model requires to track three flows: money, physical output and time. They are in luck with physical output, because they are translators, so they can just assume uniform quality and approximate output with word count. This would be difficult if they were, say, jewellers. We have a small experience with time. In the early days of Edgeryders, @anon3197437925 proposed we all time log. For him, as a software developer, it was already part of his routine. Everyone else pushed back: too bureaucratic, too complicated and weird. Later on, we got involved with EU project that require us to produce timesheets, and through this experience we came to realize that time logging is actually useful to acknowledge everyone's contribution, and to protect people from self-exploitation. Now we do it, more or less – or rather, some do it consistently, and others don't. We can already do some kind of analysis on logged time. If we were to convince ourselves to switch to a system that needs consistent time logging, we would probably be able to do it. But it took seven years for the culture to set in! Bottom line here is: no accounting system is viable unless people are prepared to do the legwork required. At least, not in Edgeryders. Financial flows are super-centralized (everything goes in and out of one, or a few, bank accounts) and this makes them easy to track them. Tracking work time, instead is inherently decentralized. ### 2. Do you really need more formal analysis? Tracking time can be a way to assess everyone's contribution. In early Edgeryders, Matt proposed it as a way to keep track of sweat equity, as we had no money at all at the time. But we decided that a better way to do the same thing would be to decide we would all own an equal share of the new company, and could trust each other to pull our weight towards this end. We could see two advantages to zero monitoring: it has almost no overhead (measuring is costly) and builds trust. I still think that was a good call in the circumstances. We could easily fit the whole company in our heads (4-5 people, no financial assets). This is now no longer the case. Maybe your business has already reached the stage where the benefits of gathering more information are worth its costs, Yannick. But in general, my advice would be: if you do not *really* really need it now, do not do it. Wait it out. ### 3. Is the new, fancy standard really better than the old boring one? I looked up some extra info on the REA model (on Wikipedia, as I am lazy). And found this: ![image|569x445](upload://khfl6zpIwFWRa2urWzpheX1DUwo.png) It does not tell me anything that I don't know with a glance at my (traditional) accounting software. If you were a very large organization, or – even better – network thereof, then I do see an advantage: explicit tracking of agents. But again, even in traditional accounting platforms there are several ways to keep track of agents (normally, but not necessarily, individuals). Additionally, even if you were to adopt some alt-accounting system, it has to be on top of normal double-entry accounting, mandated by company law. In conclusion, it seems to me that you would need a concrete and urgent case for adopting anything new, rather than stretching good ole double entry bookkeeping (for example, in the case of Edgeryders, adding time logging). With that said, if you implement REA or other fancy systems, I would be grateful for learning about your experience. Maybe a webinar?" 3,76611,2020-05-14T16:46:50.080Z,13333,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,75235,anon790468754,anon901895853,"Hi @anon901895853 Feel free to contact me to brainstorm. Even better, you can engage the Sensorica community on the public [forum](https://www.sensorica.co/forum). Sensorica is not a platform developing organization. We are a real network of people practicing peer production. The NRP (network resource planning) was developed in the context of Sensorica, in partnership with other organizations and individuals, and inherited from our practices in Sensorica. We can discuss about the tools, but we can also discuss about p2p economic / business models. Tools come after, once you have identify your model. Here's [a bit about our journey](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ABmC6YJsszlIPoL-YXU3GF-PLHY0tmQdocBExswh7Lw/edit). And here's [where we want to go](https://www.sensorica.co/projects/4th-sector/NOICE)." 4,76613,2020-05-14T16:59:07.247Z,13333,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,75264,anon790468754,anon3379761435,"@anon3379761435 REA has what Bill McCharthy calls the ""helicopter view"". It is able to generate language from the network's perspective. Any traditional ERP sees the world from the point of view of a company, inside out. when you have different companies interacting together you have to struggle with everyone's point of view. NRP creates a network point of view, which is as good for everyone interacting within the network. And yes, you can export a double entry accounting from it, all agents can, and look at it from their own perspectives, so their accountants are happy. Here's more https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1syLoxvNWb8KyJ11T8_IQkhlLRsJ-AOmsxFWkoREBm8U/edit#slide=id.p52 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OkhTLUmEAw2_TRNa8xhZkBQjKfgr0vtf-2Rw95kZLsI/edit#slide=id.p1" 5,76718,2020-05-18T09:42:19.613Z,13333,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,75235,anon901895853,anon901895853,"thanks @anon790468754 and @anon3379761435 for your returns, really helpful. Today i'm closing the classical accounting of the last year, and will use what was discussed here to find a good fit for anon2696444391 i want to run my company financially :) Will keep you posted" 1,72260,2020-03-24T08:12:33.738Z,12947,1,13,12,9,0,0,114.6,72260,anon1293144218,anon1293144218,"Hi All I am posting this straight here because I don't entirely understand the site, but happy to learn. I am one of the writers in Babel Between us and in South Africa, we have just been informed we are about to shut down. Our president, who has done some pretty reprehensible things prior, is actually sanon2696444391ing strong leadership. There are a few sections of society, unaccounted for unfortunately, this includes space for the artists, dreamers, those that need to see a way through this beyond just the now. I have a few developer friends, but I thought I would first make the proposal here, this space is obviously very European focused but it would be cool if we could have something similar in our country, perhaps a sister site, a place to engage in unique ways during the lockdown. If I spoke to my friends, would there be any support available to help set this up? Thank you" 2,72263,2020-03-24T08:22:08.525Z,12947,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,72260,anon3828707713,anon1293144218,oh you should connect with @anon 3,72266,2020-03-24T08:29:54.628Z,12947,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,72263,anon1293144218,anon3828707713,"Thanks Nadia. My interests are more about like lessons learnt when hosting, key things to know when building and creating the site etc. I think a team of South Africans, including @anon It would also help to ensure that the sites could work in tandem. Would this kind of assistance be available? Perhaps right now I need to know what key skills I should find in creating a team to work on this and then we could start looking through it, figuring it out and asking questions that your team could respond to?" 4,72270,2020-03-24T08:46:49.512Z,12947,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,72266,anon3828707713,anon1293144218,"By site do you mean anon1577251828 platform? Some parts are Europe Focused others no, it depends on who is driving/anon3983078393ing any given thread or activity. OCI Lab, the P2P online incubator for social entrepeneurship started in Tunisia and is mainly run by a crew in tunis. Either way, yes there is support in a couple of ways. A good way to start would be to repost your question here https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-did-we-discuss-during-the-covid19-community-response-call-1-what-will-we-do-next/12945/3" 5,72309,2020-03-24T11:43:20.575Z,12947,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,72260,anon659222949,anon1293144218,"Hey @anon1293144218, nice to see you made it here! To underscore Nadias post, here are some good examples of initiatives on Edgeryders from outside of Europe. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/oci-labs-online-p2p-incubator-for-menas-youth/10249?u=anon659222949 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hack-4-environment-morocco-post-event-summary/12102?u=anon659222949 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/it-s-time-to-start-treating-waste-as-a-resource-zelij-invent/12532?u=anon659222949 A major strength of keeping people under the same roof is that we can avoid reinventing the wheel while still adapting things to our local circumstances. Perhaps there is a way to fit this in here? There are also ways for us to help you with understanding anon2696444391 to launch a platform, and we even sometimes host other platforms though the Edgeryders Communities network - although that’s usually when there is already an existing community that wants to move to a new digital home. Starting a forum from scratch in an empty forum is a lot more challenging than bringing people onboard to a platform where things are already happening." 6,72436,2020-03-25T11:25:55.326Z,12947,1,10,9,1,2,0,27.0,72309,anon3197437925,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon1293144218, post:1, topic:12947""]There are a few sections of society […] this includes space for the artists, dreamers, those that need to see a way through this beyond just the now. […] it would be cool if we could have something similar in our country, perhaps a sister site, a place to engage in unique ways during the lockdown[/quote] Like @anon659222949 said, a reasonable course of action would be that you have a look where you'd like to place this content into the current anon1577251828.eu platform. There is the [Culture Squad](/c/culture-squad) category and I'm pretty sure @anon294806887 would welcome engagement from non-European cultural practitioners there. If you're sure there will be enough content coming in, you can also have your own sub-category. In both cases, you would register your own domain and point it to that place on anon1577251828.eu as a simple URL forwarder. Then, when your community outgrows this solution, you point it to its new webhome. If it does not outgrow it, no harm done, and no effort wasted on installing a forum that stayed empty. [quote=""anon659222949, post:5, topic:12947""]There are also ways for us to help you with understanding anon2696444391 to launch a platform, and we even sometimes host other platforms through the Edgeryders Communities network - although that’s usually when there is already an existing community that wants to move to a new digital home[/quote] Indeed, once there is enough content to warrant this, we could add an Edgeryders Communities site – for details, see [the manual](/t/7419). Moving from a category on anon1577251828.eu to your own Communities site (basically a fresh, empty install of the forum) is simple, as everyone involved can keep using the same account. You can find these Communities sites in the top-right menu here. The Babel Between Us site, which you know, is one of them." 7,72461,2020-03-25T15:22:24.000Z,12947,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,72436,anon1293144218,anon3197437925,"Thank you both. Today was last minute run arounds. Will attend in the morning. Appreciate the support and guidance:) Might call on more after I follow initial steps. Thanks again" 8,72462,2020-03-25T15:25:03.238Z,12947,0,10,9,2,0,0,12.0,72461,anon3828707713,anon1293144218,"Guess where this is? :)) ![EdgerydersDinner_SA|690x460](upload://nED9yuWRGMGKEjJn44UnQQhQeWq.jpg)" 9,72927,2020-03-30T15:30:58.610Z,12947,1,10,9,2,0,0,47.0,72260,anon767596218,anon1293144218,"Hi @anon1293144218 @anon3828707713 @anon3197437925 Player 1, great to be connected to you. I can relate to your frustrations as I've been working with a group of artists, in our own capacities on collaborative ventures focused mainly on engagement and communication. It's always great to connect with likeminded persons and I am totally excited by the prospect of meeting the Edgeryders in person once again. Player, I would be more inclined to suggest using this existing platform as it has a a considerable amount of outliers, creatives, designers, activists all striving toward a more inclusive, engaging and solution driven network. That, and it's been successful. My gut says why recreate this, and then work to gather a similar kind of audience. I've made wonderful friends via Edgeryders, online and in person, and it works simply because it's multi-sectoral and -disciplinary and stretch beyond traditional boundaries (social, physical, political, etc). I'm no designer but I'd be keen to learn more about your interests. We could consider a chat. Welcome to the network and I do look forward to hearing from you. @anon3828707713 @anon" 10,72946,2020-03-30T16:32:53.000Z,12947,2,8,7,1,0,0,16.6,72927,anon1293144218,anon767596218,"Hi All Thanks again. So we are figuring out something we like, its like a narrative game. Kinda inspired by Babel, but different, its lots of fun trying to work it out. I really do think the Edgeryders platform is cool, but there is so much about it feels distinctively European (including the domain name) . I think something from us needs to be created with our audiences in mind, the way we use the internet and it should at least with the ability to carve out it's own identity. I dont think that this thing that we create could match Edqeryders nor compete with it. I think it compliments but it must be separate. i would love if they can be related, perhaps there could be a link between the sites and we can reference. I think people can be introduced to Edgeryders through whatever this becomes and can join the community even. I don't think there is always benefit in keeping everything on one site. Its really not an attempt to reinvent the wheel, we lack the capacity to even attempt that. I just think there are many ways to be in community. ya, im pretty free and keen to chat :)" 11,72950,2020-03-30T16:53:50.311Z,12947,0,8,7,1,0,0,36.6,72946,anon3828707713,anon1293144218,"dont worry about it. Its fairly easy to set up a separate space with it's own domain etc technically. Maybe sanon2696444391 up to next week's community call? can walk you through it then. ping @anon1753543892" 12,72957,2020-03-30T17:30:30.958Z,12947,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,72946,anon1753543892,anon1293144218,"Hello @anon1293144218, we are coming together every Monday 17:00 CEST, if you want to join in to talk things through that would be great: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/weekly-covid2019-community-response-call/12920/16 and every Tuesdays noon (12:00 CEST) we have another community call specifically focused on anon2696444391 the loss of work effects people in the current crisis, reading your motivation for setting up such a platform that might be interesting for you too: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-to-do-when-losing-work-during-covid19-community-calls-each-tuesday-noon/12886" 13,75482,2020-04-30T14:04:42.528Z,12947,1,6,5,1,0,0,26.2,72260,anon1753543892,anon1293144218,Ping @anon3214242932 maybe this thread is also interesting for you since you said you were interested in anon2696444391 anon1577251828 build communities. 14,76701,2020-05-17T14:43:25.407Z,12947,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,75482,anon3214242932,anon1753543892,"Thanks, I'll bookmark this." 1,75832,2020-05-06T14:40:58.580Z,13438,1,18,17,156,0,0,838.6,75832,anon4046128282,anon4046128282,"[Annette Zimmermann](https://annettezimmermann.weebly.com) is an analytic political philosopher and ethicist at Princeanon2863106368 University’s [Center for Human Values (UCHV)](https://uchv.princeanon2863106368.edu) and [Center for Information Technology Policy (CITP)](https://citp.princeanon2863106368.edu). Annette’s current work explores the ethics and politics of algorithmic decision-making, machine learning and artificial intelligence. Here is a shortened version of our fascinating conversation (AZ: Annette Zimmermann, LS: anon4046128282 Schulte) **LS:** **What are you working on right now? What are some of your future projects that you are excited about?** **AZ:** Right now, I am working on several academic papers on the concept of algorithmic injustice. I am interested in the scope of that concept: I think that it’s important to understand what kind of problem we are dealing with and anon2696444391 big of a problem it is, in comparison to other moral and political problems, because our answer to that question will determine what kind of answers we can give about morally and politically justifiable *solutions*. In my work, I think about questions like: what type of injustice are we talking about when we talk about algorithmic injustice? Is it a unique form of injustice, or just a reiteration of other, more familiar forms of non-technological injustice that already shape society? I am also interested in the question of anon2696444391 algorithmic bias develops and compounds over time, which in my view is an extremely underexplored area. I am also working on a short book titled *The* *Algorithmic is Political*. The book is about the extent to which technological design and deployment decisions have this political and moral baggage that we talked about before, and what that means for our moral and political rights and duties: who is responsible for when things go wrong? Who should fix things like algorithmic bias, particularly when it compounds historical patterns of injustice? Are there some decisions that we simply should not automate, even if we have highly accurate and efficient technological tools? Who has a right to have a say: who should be involved in decisions about that, and anon2696444391 should those decisions take place given existing political and social structures? What would it mean to democratize AI, and would democratizing AI solve problems like algorithmic injustice? **LS:** **At EgdeRyders, we like to learn about what motivates experts to work in their respective fields: Can you tell me a anon2488317424 bit about what brought you into this line of research?** **AZ:** I have always been interested in topics related to democracy, justice, and the moral and political significance of risk and uncertainty. Before starting my current research project on the ethics and politics of artificial intelligence and machine learning, I was thinking about decision-making and justice more broadly: about the rights that people have when democratic constituencies make decisions together, particularly when different people bear various levels of risk of being affected by those decisions. Then I realised that *algorithmic* decision-making models often lead to a specific instantiation of this complex, larger problem that appears over and over again in political philosophy: in a democratic society, in which we are committed to treating people as equals, anon2696444391 should we distribute risks between people? **LS:** **Why do we need to think about the *ethics* of artificial intelligence and algorithmic decision-making? In concrete terms, what does ethical reasoning about emerging technologies involve?** **AZ:** Right now, a lot of people—including those working in the tech industry—are recognizing the need for ethical reflection on the social implications of AI: we are in an ‘AI ethics gold rush’ moment. But anon2696444391 does one actually *do* AI Ethics? I think that when people hear ‘ethics’, they often think of it as basically being the same thing as reasoning based on personal beliefs and opinions, religious views, or cultural norms. Many people therefore think that the answers to all ethical questions—that is, questions about what we *ought to* do, about what it means to do the *right thing* —are ultimately relative: that there is no obvious way of sorting out whether one ethical view is better or worse than another view. I think that that is a dangerous way of thinking about ethics—including AI ethics—because I think that there are at least some value-based arguments that are clearly incoherent or that lead to deeply morally repugnant conclusions. We don’t have to treat all ethical arguments as equally persuasive by default. Of course, there will still be many competing ethical arguments that are not obviously flawed in that way, so complicated trade-offs may arise. For instance, in the context of AI, we might really care about accuracy, but we also really care about justice, and about efficiency, and about transparency, privacy, and so on. All of these are important values and goals—but it is not enough to simply come up with a ‘wish list’ of values, because it is often impossible to optimize for all of these important values at the same time. We have to make ethical judgment calls about which values to rank more highly, and we have to be clear about which values we have *failed* to realise when we do so. Doing ethics well means getting comfortable with that sense of uncertainty surrounding these trade-offs: there is a risk that we might get things wrong, and a good way of confronting that risk is to keep asking questions, rather than committing to one ethical argument at one point in time (a view like: “Irrespective of the domain of application, always prioritize accuracy over transparency!”) and then trying to just apply it without ever revisiting it. In other words, it’s dangerous to declare the ethical case closed. Whenever we do ethics—and that ‘we’ includes not just political and moral philosophers, but also tech practitioners, policy-makers, and ordinary citizens—we must remain open to the possibility that we have been making the wrong choices so far, and that we need to change our actions going forward, rather than simply trying to make whatever we have been doing so far more efficient. I think that one central dimension of this in the context of AI ethics will be to prioritise the perspective of those most directly and most negatively affected by the use of algorithmic decision-making tools that exhibit racial or gender bias, as well as other forms of biases that exacerbate social inequality. **LS:** **In popular culture and in public discourse, AI is often portrayed as a kind of looming entity, which is both inevitable and out of our control. People seem to worry about the ways in which we ought to *adapt* to the emergence of powerful new technologies: anon2696444391 will AI change what it means to be human? But it also seems important to turn that question on its head: anon2696444391 should humans shape what AI does and does not do? Which consequences of AI innovation are truly inevitable and where do human decision-makers have room to make deliberate, conscious choices about anon2696444391 AI affects our social life? How does your work respond to these complex questions?** **AZ:** I think that public discourse on this issue tends to split into two fairly extreme views, neither one of which is correct. On the one hand, there’s ‘AI optimism: the view that the increasingly ubiquitous use of AI is inevitable, that we can’t return to not using AI once we have deployed it in a given domain. The implicit assumption behind that view often seems to be something like, ""well, if AI is inevitable, there isn't really a point in trying to critique it ethically""—or to critique it politically, even. On this view, AI is nothing more than a tool—and one that promises to have a decidedly positive impact on society. On the other hand, there is a dramatically opposing view that says something like, “it is inevitable that all AI will lead to incredibly bad and harmful consequences”. That’s a different sense of inevitability right there. Tech pessimists seem to think that whatever we do, whichever domain we focus on in our AI deployment, the use of automated reasoning methods will always be someanon2696444391 counterproductive or harmful. I think both views are wrong. The first view underestimates our ability to subject AI to productive scepticism, public oversight, and collective control. Even if it is inevitable that we will be using more and more AI in our collective decision-making processes, we ought to keep reflecting critically on AI’s purpose. There might be some collective decision-making problem domains where it would be ethically and politically inadequate to use AI because we intuitively feel that when things go wrong in those domains, we want a human decision-maker to blame; we want somebody to *justify* to us why a particular decision outcome was reached. In those domains, we are often anon2373157426 happy to not be maximally efficient or accurate. What we really want is to think and argue with each other about anon2696444391 best to arrange our political and social life, about what it would mean to have a just society, about anon2696444391 we can relate to each other as true equals. These are ultimately not just ethical, but fundamentally political questions. Of course, tech optimists might reply to the response that I just gave: “but clearly AI will optimize our collective decision-making!” To that, I think a more nuanced and sceptical view might say in response, “well, optimising isn't everything”. We must exercise our critical judgment to determine when optimising further and further, and thereby entrenching and accelerating our current social *status quo*, is actually what matters most. And in many cases, that might not be what justice requires. But at the same time, the second view that I outlined before—the tech pessimists’ view—can also be misleading. It is misleading in the sense that it equates all forms of AI and machine-learning, including their ethical importance and impact, with each other. I do not think that that is plausible at all. Not all forms of AI will lead to the same kinds of harmful outcomes. It is especially important to ask: where and anon2696444391 can we use AI to mitigate injustice rather than exacerbating it? Nuanced ethical and political engagement with new technologies requires avoiding sweeping generalisations. But, it is clear that, as a general principle, if using algorithmic decision-making in a particular decision domain moves us further away from justice, then we have a strong presumption against using it in that domain. **LS:** **Could we make AI more just by improving algorithms on a technological level, for example by defining mathematically what a fair algorithm would look like?** **AZ:** Computer scientists and statisticians (especially those working in a new, interdisciplinary research subfield called FATML—Fairness, Accountability and Transparency in Machine Learning) have done a lot of important work recently. Amongst other things, FATML researchers have thought critically about whether simply distributing the same probabilities of obtaining a particular outcome across different socio-demographic groups is actually sufficient for an algorithmically fair procedure. The trouble is that there are multiple plausible mathematically defined fairness metrics, and we cannot optimise for all of them at the same time—they are mathematically incompatible. Furthermore, as many FATML researchers have pointed out, algorithmic models will always interact dynamically with the world. This sounds simple and intuitive, but it has dramatic implications for anon2696444391 we can and should tackle problems like unfair algorithmic decision outcomes. Assume that we manage to develop an algorithm that actually does adhere to whatever broadly plausible mathematical fairness desiderata we have articulated in the design stage, and then we deploy it in the world. But, unsurprisingly, the world is shaped by a history of inequality and injustice, and technological models interact dynamically with the social world. So, whatever new data gets fed back into our algorithmic model will reflect those inequalities in our status quo to some extent. So then, a decision rule within that algorithm that seemed ostensibly fair in the beginning, may not ultimately deliver truly equitable results. One consequence we might draw from this insight that models interact dynamically with the world is to say, “well, it’s not decisive anon2696444391 well we mathematically articulate what the algorithm is supposed to be doing and in what way it’s supposed to be doing it, if there is always going to be this dynamic interaction.” That would be a bad conclusion for us to reach, I think. To address the model-world interaction problem in a more meaningful way, we must ask: what is the *purpose* of using algorithmic decision making for a given problem in the first place? What—and indeed whom—are we defining as a problem? What sort of data are we trying to look at, and does that data really help us solve the problem? Which populations are most affected by technological innovation, both positively and negatively? In sum, we need to take a broader, socially and politically informed view—not a purely technological view—on algorithmic fairness. **LS:** **How can political philosophy help push us to think critically about AI and machine learning?** **AZ:** I think that one particularly useful resource in political philosophy is the long tradition of thinking about theories of justice. These are theories about anon2696444391 we should distribute benefits and burdens in society, but also about anon2696444391 we should relate to each other. So, it’s not only about allocating goods and benefits to people, but also about thinking about the social relations and structures that we ought to create and maintain: what it means to respect each other as equals, and what we owe each other on an interpersonal level. What does it mean to treat each citizen in our society with respect, given that there are going to be some inequalities that we possibly can't eliminate? For example, we can’t change the fact that people are born with different natural talents and abilities, but most of us think that your access to basic resources and basic rights shouldn't depend on those ‘undeserved’ features that you are born with. In addition, it is also plausible to think that if an individual or group is structurally disadvantaged in society, we should *prioritise* the interests and the voices of members of that group in processes of collective decision-making in some form. So, if we are going to have inequalities in our society, those inequalities ought to be arranged in a way that benefit those who are worst off the most. Many analytic political philosophers, especially those working in the 20th century, have been thinking about that question. In addition, feminist philosophers and critical race theorists have called our attention to the idea that we should not treat the social and political status quo as just by default: justice is not only about ensuring compliance with the rules governing our existing social institutions—it is also about transforming those institutions as a whole, and about being accountable for historical patterns of injustice. In addition to theories of justice, another line of thought in political philosophy that is relevant for AI is the debate on *disagreement* and *dissent* in democratic societies. Thinking about disagreement is, I think, very important when we think about design decisions linked to AI and machine learning. To give a concrete example, suppose that we are using algorithmic tools to predict the risk that a criminal offender will reoffend in the future. One such algorithm is called COMPAS—a tool that various states in the US having been using for a few years now—to determine whether an offender is ‘high risk’ or ‘low risk’, and that according to a [well-known investigation by ProPublica](https://www.propublica.org/article/machine-bias-risk-assessments-in-criminal-sentencing), it was more likely to classify Black defendants as ‘high risk’ in comparison to similar white defendants. Of course, what it means to be a ‘high risk individual’ is subject to disagreement—whether those who design algorithmic tools explicitly acknowledge that or not. Algorithms are not inherently neutral, because we still have to make conscious choices when we design systems, including choices influenced by implicit bias and stereotypes. Of course, we could try to approximate what *riskiness* in this context means by looking at things like: has this person committed previous offences? Is she in an unstable economic situation? Do her social networks include a lot of other people who recidivate? Some of those variables might be more appropriate to use than others, right? For instance, one might think it’s inappropriate to make inferences from the behaviour of your friends and family whether you in fact will be guilty of criminal conduct again in the future. Some predictions might be more ethically and politically defensible than others. Similarly, we have to be attuned to the fact that even if you have a list of prior offences, that might be partially dependent on your social context, which we may want to consider as a mitigating factor. But it is often difficult to do just that when using algorithmic decision-making instead of human judgment: using tools like COMPAS doesn't allow us to take context into account sufficiently, and it simultaneously obscures the extent to which underpinning concepts in our algorithmic model are subject to wide social and political disagreement. **LS:** **Would it be right to say that disagreement is embedded in even the earliest stages of design?** **AZ:** Yes. Consider the use of algorithmic decision-making in credit scoring or in hiring. When designing algorithmic tools, for this purpose, we have to come up with a way of measuring who counts as ‘a good employee’ or as ‘creditworthy’. But those are not straightforward, unambiguous, and uncontroversial concepts. There are many ways of cashing them out, and if we do not think hard about what kinds of concepts we should be working with, bad things can happen. Amazon, for instance, was in the news recently because they used an algorithmic hiring tool that ended up having a disparate impact that disadvantaged women applicants, because the majority of applicants who had been successful at Amazon so far had been male. Suppose, for example, that an algorithmic hiring tool takes into account the number of years of coding experience for each applicant. Boys tend to be encouraged to start coding earlier in life than girls—but the amount of years of coding experience might be differently predictive for different genders in terms of future success as a ‘good employee’ in the tech industry. So, a female Amazon applicant with five years of coding experience might be just as well-suited as a male applicant with ten years of coding experience, if their current skill set is on par—but if the algorithm ranks ‘years of coding experience’ much more highly than ‘current skill set’, the algorithm will keep favouring male applicants. The bottom line is: concepts always have moral and political baggage. If we fail to engage with that problem, we risk developing technology that becomes less and less representative of what the world is really like, in all its complexity. We risk ending up with technology that isn't merely inaccurate, in the sense that it doesn't faithfully represent the real world, but also with technological tools that fail differently for different people. **LS:** **Earlier, you mentioned that the wider public might not necessarily be fully informed about what algorithmic decision-making and AI, in their current form, actually are. What are some of the most crucial areas about which the public is mis-or underinformed?** **AZ:** I think that one misconception is that a lot of people think of AI as something akin to the highly sophisticated, auanon2863106368omous artificial agents that we see in dystopian sci-fi movies: those kinds of ‘general’ AI would be able to operate across a whole range of different tasks, and would not be dependent on humans pre-defining decision problems for them. That's not the kind of AI we are dealing with now, or even in the foreseeable future. Right now, we are using domain-specific tools (sometimes called ‘narrow AI’) which are far away from being conscious, auanon2863106368omous agents similar to humans. Irrespective of that fact, humans often attribute some form of agency to technological systems. This is dangerous: whenever the use of algorithmic decision-making leads to unjust outcomes, we can't exclusively blame the technology. The agents which we have to hold accountable instead are human decision makers—including private corporations who develop technology, and governments who choose to procure and deploy it. And once it becomes well-known that technology leads to unjust outcomes, we also need start thinking of ourselves—regular citizens—as people who are responsible for addressing problems like algorithmic injustice together, in the arena of democratic decision-making. Without that, I think citizens are not truly living up to their collective responsibility of safeguarding, and indeed *demanding*, equal freedom and justice for all. **LS:** **In your recent essay,**[ **“Technology Can’t Fix Algorithmic Injustice”** ](http://bosanon2863106368review.net/science-nature-politics/annette-zimmermann-elena-di-rosa-hochan-kim-technology-cant-fix-algorithmic) **, published in the *Bosanon2863106368 Review* earlier this year, you make a bold claim: “there may be some machine learning systems that should not be deployed in the first place, no matter anon2696444391 much we can optimise them”. That argument stands in clear contrast to some common ideas and aspirations in the tech industry, which rely on a sense of limitless potential, efficiency, and continuous optimisation in relation to AI. What factors contribute to making some machine learning systems unfit for deployment, and perhaps even dangerous for society?** **AZ:** I think that one good example of the so-called non-deployment argument – the argument that we just shouldn't deploy particular types of AI systems in particular domains to solve particular problems, no matter anon2696444391 much we can optimise AI in that domain – is the current debate about facial recognition technology, which is used in law enforcement, for instance. What many people do not know is that fifty percent of American adults are [currently in a facial recognition database](https://www.perpetuallineup.org/) that law enforcement has access to. These databases don't only include mugshots, they also include images from drivers’ licenses. So, a huge part of the population is already assessable by facial recognition systems, here and now. In several American cities, including San Francisco, activists argued that they did not want their cities to deploy these tools, and subsequently, these cities decided to ban them. One primary concern was not only the fact that so many people are represented in those databases without having clear recourse mechanisms, so that there isn't a clear due process path for people who get assessed inaccurately by those facial recognition tools. A potential for mass surveillance obviously affects all citizens, but there is also a more specific, injustice-based concern that these kinds of tools have been empirically sanon2696444391n to be less accurate for people of colour. If you are already disadvantaged in society by structures of racial injustice, then the use of facial recognition tools will oppress you further. **LS:** **How should tech and policy practitioners approach AI ethics?** **AZ:** Not everybody in the tech industry has to get a PhD in philosophy—but practitioners need to start seeing themselves as people who are *already* unavoidably making decisions of ethical and political significance. There is no such thing as a ‘purely technological issue’—technological choices are to some degree always political and ethical choices. Also, I think it’s important for practitioners to bear in mind that ethical reflection is never a process that is done unilaterally, and it’s never a process that is *done*, so to speak. We shouldn't approach AI ethics as something like a [checklist](https://freedom-to-tinker.com/2019/03/25/ai-ethics-seven-traps/). We should not think of ethics as a final ‘quality control’ check that we simply run once after we've developed a particular technology. We should have ethical goals in mind *before* we deploy, but we should also be very open to *changing* those ethical goals once we do deploy and once we see what effects that technology has in the world. Recall the problem of model-world interactions that I mentioned before: because of it, we might simply not *foresee* certain problems, we might not be able to accurately forecast the *magnitude* of problems, we might not be able to predict anon2696444391 different technological systems *interact* with each other, and we may not be able to accurately predict anon2696444391 *humans* change their behaviour once they know they are subject to algorithmic assessments. All of these problems require that we keep our ethical critique going, rather than approaching it as a static, one-time process." 2,76477,2020-05-13T14:03:42.582Z,13438,0,9,8,1,1,0,36.8,75832,anon3379761435,anon4046128282,"Wow, this is a really great post! So much, in fact, that I feel the need to break it down. In what follows I only focus on the first part of the interview: understanding AI ethics (more or less the first four questions). [quote=""anon4046128282, post:1, topic:13438""] it is not enough to simply come up with a ‘wish list’ of values, because it is often impossible to optimize for all of these important values at the same time. [/quote] This formulation reminded me of medicine. Clinical doctors are not scientists: they have a different lineage. Their commitment is not to vanquishing the ilness, but to the well-being of the *patient*. This entails navigating the exact same trade-offs that Zimmermann talks about here. You see this very well in the COVID-19 debate: epidemiologists tend to be closer to the science side of things. They build and interpret models, do statistics and so on. Their recommendations optimize for indicators like caseload, hospitalizations and so on. Infectivologists are closer to clinical practice, and they tend to strike a balance across many different factors, some of them having nothing to do with medicine and health. I was very impressed by [an interview with Johan Giesecke](https://youtu.be/bfN2JWifLCY) (thanks @anon659222949 for sharing it), who started out as an infectivologist and ended up becoming Sweden's main epidemiologist. He talks a lot about democracy and economic well-being, you can hear him navigate the tradeoffs as he speaks. The parallel with medicine is also interesting in that clinical doctors consider ""evidence"" things that are very different from the ""evidence"" of their research colleagues. This is fundamental: medical research deals in statistics. It tells you that, in the trial of new drug X, 70% of the people in the treatment group experienced a body weight loss of 3% or more, against only 24% in the control group. What it does not tell you is if drug X will help *this patient in particular, right now,* get better. @anon2619552108 once told him that technologists treat medicine as if it consisted only of diagnosis: once you get the diagnosis right, the treatment protocol follows. This is completely false (""my diabetes is not like your diabetes""). What's more, it will *always* be false, because human health is so multidimensional that statistical reasoning can never ""see"" the individual case. You would need clinical trials with the whole human population! And this bring me to the topic, dear to me, of data. [quote=""anon4046128282, post:1, topic:13438""] So, whatever new data gets fed back into our algorithmic model will reflect those inequalities in our status quo to some extent. [/quote] This is true. ""Data"" are translations of messy reality into a formal structure, operated by biased, overworked, careless, unreliable humans. And that is in the best case scenario. We, anon2696444391ever do not live in the best case scenario: we live in a scenario where major governments will tell you, with a straight face, things like ""today we report 325 COVID-19 deaths. Of these, 87 happened yesterday in the country's hospitals; 238 happened in retirement homes, between yesterday and last Tuesday, sorry, there were delays in collecting the data. Ah, and of the people that died in the retirement homes 37% tested positive for COVID, we did not test the others"". In a situation like this, you do not ""crunch"" the data. You circle them like you would do with a dangerous quicksand pit. You poke at them with a stick, assume they are unreliable and try to determine anon2696444391 unreliable they are. What you don't do is feed them to a model, happily publish the result (with the obligatory sprinkling of dubitative expressions) and then protest ""but these are the only data we have!"" when called out. [quote=""anon4046128282, post:1, topic:13438""] “well, optimising isn’t everything” [/quote] Sure. But ML *does* optimize. If it does not optimize, it's not ML. Intuitively, I do not see anon2696444391 narrow AI could be a credible candidate method for making decisions. It can be a way to process information – in medicine, to diagnose. But when it comes to the nit and grit... I don't know, I guess I am in the skeptics' camp." 3,88849,2020-12-11T14:55:47.021Z,13438,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,75832,anon1753543892,anon4046128282,"@anon4046128282, this might also be a candidate to make a short post with one of these paragraphs, what do you think?" 1,67775,2019-12-20T06:23:53.857Z,12217,1,30,29,36,0,0,328.0,67775,anon320602330,anon320602330,"Hi all, Just sharing some notes from a conversation I had with @anon3086952555, helpfully supported by @anon3203746736. The text is a bit raw, but I hope some of the ideas are useful to this forum. ----- My name is Michelle Thorne, and I work for the Mozilla Foundation. We're behind the browser Firefox. And for the last few years, we've been working on internet health. I got first gotten interested in all things internet about 15 years ago. I was actually a very passionate early Wikipedia when the project was just getting started. And I remember telling everybody I knew like my university professors, ""there's this amazing website that lets you edit all these these different articles. And it's all the world's knowledge and all the world's languages."" And I just thought that was the most ambitious and coolest thing on the internet. And so that was kind of my window into free culture and open source. After going to the first week of Wikimania in Frankfurt, Germany, I learned about Creative Commons, where I later worked. And after being at Creative Commons for a few years, started to work at the Mozilla Foundation. So the idea of, you know, open, participatory, global, ambitious digital projects has always been the big job for me. I'm really interested in the internet, and the role it plays in society. I see it as a global public resource, and something really worthy of attention and care. I think one of the challenges we see today is that participation is more complicated than it was, let's say, in the earlier days of the internet, we've seen the rise of these big centralized platforms, which use their corporate policies to control anon2696444391 you participate. There is very anon2488317424 governance from the user side, and anon2696444391 those platforms might change or respond to people's needs. And we're also seeing the rise of behaviors online, hate speech and other kinds of violence aggravating actions that have kind of put people into retreat, or help to polarize people. So we have other social media platforms who really benefit from benefit from outrage and benefit from content that gets, quote, engagement. But it's actually creating a kind of polarized atmosphere online, and people are retreating and participating less, or just participating in their smaller groups and just talking about the average. So it's become a kind of, at least in my experience, and what I've heard anecdotally and seen in some studies, just the internet as a place of participation is a lot more money, the Mozilla foundation on on the team that I'm on, we support all sorts of leaders in the internet health movement, who are tackling these different kinds of issues. So there's a whole group of people, Camille included, who are talking about misinformation, and anon2696444391 do you combat the rise of misinformation online? People talking about anon2696444391 do we talk about hate speech and radicalized speech online. And we also run a bunch of campaigns around these topics that I've been working on the last few years is the Internet of Things, and anon2696444391 to make it more responsible, more open, more private, and also include these ideas of participation and co-creation, because the Internet of Things has typically been a lot of black box appliances, without a lot of in a real agency to change them. The IoT projects, I think, get it right or on the right path are ones that are open in their designs and their code and in their explanation of their business model and around like, anon2696444391 anon2696444391 the thing works, and also anon2696444391 did this thing comes to be in terms of supply chain, and in terms of the materials and things that go into it, as well as the third parties that work with it. So there's a whole, for me, openness is starting to become a much broader, you know, includes many things are, you know, transparency and anon2696444391 that device is made. What that device interacts with, in addition to the licensing of a name, it's like codes. And I think that those practices help to build trust. Because when you can see that an audit that information you can better understand is this a service or product that I'm willing to trust. And I think part of what that openness is about is around disclosing what happens with your data, what partners that company is in contact with or, partnering with, what their IT security update policies are, these are all things that help you make an informed decision whether you will trust this device with your data, and therefore, consider it a privacy worth preserving. In general I think we put too much pressure on the individual to have to protect themselves and all sorts of areas of our lives, technology, internet, it's just one of them. I do think there are responsibilities of governments and corporations. And I think we're seeing the rise of, thanks to digital tools, some sort of collective agency and collective bargaining. So pools of users able to put together their demands, their needs, their permissions, and through more collective bargaining, able to negotiate. And so I think that for me, that's a kind of a new area worthy of more exploration and others that some people may be sitting in this network are looking at things like digital cooperatives. And I think that that's going to be a really interesting place. Because yeah, I think, only putting the burden on the individual to have to understand all these different policies, all the different permissions, all the different technical capabilities. And do this in like the seconds of free time they have between their otherwise strapped lives is unfair, and not a society I want to advocate for. I started the Mozilla Foundation, when Mark Surman, the executive director, had also just recently joined. And he had the ambition to take the Mozilla Foundation, which was pretty strongly just focused on Firefox, the browser, and maybe a anon2488317424 bit the web as a platform, and said, like, we need to be fueling a movement for the help of the internet. And so his application blog post is called A Million Mozillians. And at the time, that was a anon2373157426 radical and ambitious proposal to the organization. And so I've been working with him for over a decade, and the things that I have done and have helped to make that vision a reality. Little bit, these projects started off with what's called the Mozilla Festival. And the idea was, let's bring together these different, primarily open players in the open space. So we had people from open hardware, open science, open education. And we had Wikipedia there, you know, we had a collection of project open video, there was a smattering of these open efforts around the world. And we thought let's bring them together. And here's a look at also learn from all these different movements that we're applying openness to other fields. So that's where you build your rainbow coalition, so to speak. Okay. And that helps give us specific projects and people that we could be investing in and supporting over the years. And what's interesting is even over a decade that's had for various permutations, but a lot of the key ideas still continue. So I still think I still use convenience as this really important way to bring together a coalition, a network of people who might otherwise not work together, to really create, like, a new community of practice out of these diverse groups. And by working on specific and achievable projects, you are able to actually give people like a collaborative substrate that lets something move forward. So I think that those some of those templates that still continue. And I have definitely learned over the years, but I think those are are anon2373157426 powerful tools, especially in the nonprofit space. One theme that kind of emerged through that work of the years, which also include included web literacy, and being part of the kind of learn to code movement was this idea of before the first falling at the Physical Web. Depending on circle you're in, you would sometimes say different words to what we set out on IoT, because that started just to be the term that was getting more traction. But anyways, I partnered with a professor from the University of Dundee, Jon Rogers, who I had worked with for many years through the Mozilla Festival, we just really got along and just said, like, hey, every time we talk, there's all sorts of ideas and things that we can be working on. So let's just Skype with each other once a week, and see where it goes. And so for a few months, you know, he came from a design research background, really interested in the physical aspects of the web and of interaction as an electrical engineer. I was coming from this digital rights, free culture, participatory open perspective. And so we would just mash together ideas. And then it emerged, we could actually make some sort of program that could be hosted with Mozilla and the University of Dundee, that tried to take those different values and approaches and apply to Internet of Things. So we started the Open IT Studio in 2016, with the idea of, let's support a community of practice of designers, technologists, philosophers, historians, digital rights advocates, to talk about what can we do to make it a healthier space for humans. And I think that project was anon2373157426 successful, definitely a highlight of my career, there were a few things that came out of it that might be interesting for people to check out. One I can recommend is the Anatomy of AI, which is a collaboration between Vladan Joler from Share Labs and Kate Crawford from AI Now, which just won design of the year and was acquired by the V&A museum for their permanent collection. And they took an Amazon Alexa. And they said, let's do a truly exploded view. So in design, you have this thing called exploded me, which usually just sanon2696444391s you the physical parts that go into device. But we said with connected devices, the story is much bigger than just the small material parts that go into it. So created the most amazing map, it's four meters by four meters, which was exhibited at the V and A Museum in London and has toured around Europe and beyond. And it's sanon2696444391s you the lifecycle of an Amazon Alexa from the mining and the smelting and the production of the components to then when it's actually running all of the data centers and content moderation advertising to the end of life, recycling, and others and otherwise discarding of the device and what is the true cost of Amazon Alexa; what really goes into it. And I think that for me, that project, The Anatomy of AI, is such a great touchsanon2863106368e for when we think about IoT. Often we talk about IoT, we just see a smart light bulb, or we often just see an object, you know, some sort of traffic light or something. But it's really the new vast network of stuff before, during and after that device where things get really interesting. So I think that that for me was just such a great example of bringing that to life. This is a long saga. We're not even in just the last minutes, it's actually the beginning of a whole new day, a whole new 24 hours, because so for example, Amazon Alexa, it's sold incredibly cheaply. I mean, compact, like it's very inexpensive device. But some of the main things it's doing is it's becoming a much more direct portal for people to order things from Amazon. But probably more importantly, it's become a whole voice snippet, like gathering system, which is powering Amazon's Alexa, that is probably the true value of having your Alexa in everyone's home. For me it like that with working with Open IoT Studio and with Jon, and with our collaborators or whichever one Peter, this kind of growing conversation amongst technologists, different professionals in the tech sector around anon2696444391 do we make the internet especially these newer emerging technologies within associated with Internet? How do we make them more understandable? How do we make decisions that lead to these products being more responsible, or the people making them be more responsible? So I think some of it is about transparency and understanding. So things like this map. And some of it are tools, like one project that we worked on together the TrustMark, the trust mark for IoT, which is something that you can then use as a tool for vetting whether your product needs a certain standard and hoping to be giving users some agency and figuring out like, is this something that I really want to have in my home or my life? I think the place where we have the most effect, maybe some better leverage, is working with other professionals and practitioners. Because those are, that's an audience. That's kind of a more notable in size and scale, or size, and just and profile. And those are people who are making daily decisions in their lives that go into those products. So those were our key audiences. So working with Jon: he's teaching next generation product designers. So we had a whole thing around education, from undergraduate to graduate. And now we have a PhD program funded by the EU looking at responsible IoT, I think this idea of what are we doing in the higher education space to train people going into the field that will have these kinds of considerations, as well as people who are in the field who are making kind of daily decisions, and then also all sorts of kind of user advocates. So we work with Consumer Reports, we work with nonprofits, we work in the digital rights space, all these people were kind of advocating on behalf of users. And they love these kinds of examples and tools, because it helps them give point to something maybe a anon2488317424 more tangible or intuitive than just a policy briefing. I was recently reflecting with a friend of mine that when in college, I studied critical social thought. And we did a lot of thinking and writing, but very anon2488317424 making. And if I could recreate my degree I would have critical social and critical making as my double major. Because I think you're right, I think actually the, let's say the makers, I think we're seeing this in the computer science departments and the design departments, engineering departments of all kinds are getting a lot more ethics curriculum and support to think about the ethical components of their work. I think that's on the rise. It's on the rise, but I think some of the other humanities actually don't do enough making of their own. So I'm sure when you're studying law, you would very, very few project would actually encourage you to do anything like make a trust, like a prototype, just mark that actually tries to put some of your law practice into something more tangible. And I I'm a firm believer that we learn through making and even though I'm not a skilled maker, I think that this is a an amazing process to try to turn ideas into something tangible, something that's testable, something that lives in another mode. We exhibited at the V&A during digital design weekend, and you get, like 25,000 people come through, and check out our work. And you have to talk to all sorts of people from all walks of life. And so yes, a lot of it's contextual, but who you're in front of. But I find in general, many people have a smartphone, most smartphones have some sort of voice assistant running on them. I think a smartphone is one of people's first IoT devices in this way. And so actually talking to people about their phone, anon2696444391 do they use their phone and the user voice assistant? What do they think about that? Do they know where that data is going? What do they think about those companies have it, it's all those funny stories around? Accent accents being misunderstood, like the Scottish person trying to talk to Siri, in these people really relate to those stories, and have their own experiences with them. And that becomes kind of a channel through which you can talk about some of these other internet health issues. I'm seeing increasingly people who don't want their work to be adding to the shadiness in the world. Dot Everyone just released a really great study around tech workers and their attitudes, was focused on the UK, but they sanon2696444391ed that I think one in five tech workers, is ready to leave a job if the employers makes an error, like an unethical decision, which cost the company like 30,000 times. So I think this is anecdotally and then also in the sector, more people want to have ethical decisions in what they build. And so I'm actually finding more people, who you don't have to convince them that these are things to work on. It's more that was more anon2696444391 oftentimes, you'll find that people are people who work in the tech sector are coming up against the business of the company is the thing that is at odds, it may be not their product manager or their design team, everyone's on board. But you have you coming down to some bigger question around like, anon2696444391 is that company financed? And so I think some of the big innovations of the coming decade will actually be around reforming our economic models. I think of anon2696444391 this OpenDoTT PhD program came to life. And thanks to the maintenance of the European Commission to prioritize these kinds of training networks, which seems to be a unique thing in the world that they say we need to get universities and in the industry together to think and to move forward to these new kinds of trainings. And especially they were interested in things like a nonprofit like Mozilla, who really focus on these more societal implications of technology. So I think that's a really amazing that they even have this kind of like structure. So it's going to be a three year PhD program that actually the there's five PhD students who are at this moment moving to Dundee, Scotland to start next week. And they come, they come from all over the world. And the idea is that they're going to be researching, through design practices, their philosophical practices through coding practices, and legal practices, ways to advance a healthier Internet of Things. So what that will look like in practice is like, very much going to be determined on what they bring to it. But we focused on different layers of where we see it playing out from the body, to the home to the neighborhood, in the city. And then we also did a cross cutting project or on the trustmark, and helps to try to bring those ideas together. So I'm anon2373157426 excited to see what it's like, I think, to have a PhD program paired with a nonprofit is exciting, they're going to also come to facility Berlin, for a year and a half to be more embedded in our office here. And then they're being advised by an array of really amazing organizations who are at the forefront of this responsible space, moving things on, simply secure. I want to take this program, as much as I want to run it. The stat that really set me back was learning that the internet contributes 2% of the world's global carbon emissions, which basically puts it on par with the airline industry. I think for a long time, we've lived in some sort of digital denial that the internet is physical, in that sense, in the sense that it requires environmental resources and adds to pollution. But as in the tech sector, we've never shied away from imagining different futures and innovating. So it's actually a place where I think the internet both is a heavy contributor to emissions, as well as it can be an amazing tool to reduce its own as well as used to mobilize and organize for climate action. Recently, I've been really interested in the idea of becoming carbon neutral Internet, and what it would take to reduce those emissions. The great news is that there are many wonderful humans of the internet who are interested in this in this problem as well. And there's already like an array of actions that are happening from moving data centers to renewables, to designing websites and web services that have a lower footprint, to extending the life of connected devices, there's a whole bunch of things people are doing that in aggregate can actually reduce emissions. And so for me, that's really exciting, not just thinking about it in the internet sector, but also just seeing the mobilization around a climate agenda. We see that really strongly here in Germany with Friday's for Future, and the recent European elections, this I think, strong mandate from the public to do something about it. And I've really taken that kind of momentum to heart. Within Mozilla, we started a small group of people who are pushing for more climate activism within the organization, which you can expect to hear more from soon. And just being more involved and also learning. There's a lot to learn about, about the climate crisis. But I think it's something that now when I think about what does it mean to be responsible technologists, I think previously, I really saw it as being around openness and privacy, inclusion, and all these topics. But now I'm increasingly seeing it has to also include the climate and kind of moving up or probably down the stack really deeper into the base layers. I keep putting like penthouses on it, but actually basement that needed investigation. People that I've spoken to have felt this kind of dissonance between amazing internet future that, for example, that me and all these open movement people have been advocating for, and the hard reality of the climate crisis, but I think there's a way to actually address that dissonance head on and not be paralyzed in action, but actually to do something about it. That's, that's where I'm at at the moment. Just think about this project being in the context of the European Union. In much of my work over the years, I've really seen the European Union be this kind of beacon of hope, from be it from a regulatory perspective, be it from an agenda setting perspective be addressed from like a celebration of multiculturalism will do lingual ism. And now, also putting the climate high on the high on the priority list. Even as a non EU citizen, I really believe in the project of the EU. And I think it's one of the most modern and exciting things that is happening on the planet, I think for the EU to really be invested in a thought leader around what the internet could be and helping to create this kind of alternative vision for it that are dominated by the prevailing centralized service capitalism models. I think, you know, that hasn't made me more public, public good perspective. I think there's something I really am hopeful for and to help lead. So that's exciting. And one of the reasons I was excited to participate in this project." 2,67864,2019-12-21T19:51:19.562Z,12217,2,22,21,1,0,0,49.4,67775,anon1732761404,anon320602330,"That's a long and very meaty post. Thank you! **Matrix multiplication** Carbon dioxide emissions from computer equipment (as well as the energy consumption of computer equipment!) comes up every now and then. Even with vastly more energy-efficient equipment, the sheer amount of equipment being deployed means energy consumption necessarily goes up. Artificial intelligence also is not helping - it does not require a lot of math and computer science to realize most of A.I. is matrix multiplications (a famously energy consuming computational problem!). It should not require a lot of political science and legal informatics knowledge to recognise that most EU governments originally invested in computer systems to be deterministic, but have now ended up reflecting on anon2696444391 to use stochastic mechanisms (A.I.) to re-introduce stretchibility in governance. One reflects on why so much effort is spent on reintroducing machine-driven subjectivity, when human-driven subjectivity was the entire reason for computerization to begin with. I think - perhaps ironically - that a chronically understudied subject is *history of technology*. Many of the most insightful and illuminating texts I've come across are from this field, whether it be Vassilev Bontchevs chronicles of early virus-coding in Bulgaria (https://bontchev.nlcv.bas.bg/papers/factory.html), Jon Agars description of early conceptualizations of computerization in liberal United Kingdom (""Government Machine""), Jean-François Blanchettes book on French challenges with the immateriality of the electronic signature (""Burdens of Proof"") or Seda Gürses thesis on privacy-enhancing technologies from 2010. Much effort is spent on emergent technologies, or emergent legal challenges arising from such technologies, and in general the present - so much so that we appear to be missing out on even relatively recent contexts (like the past century or less) that could help us find bearing and direction. A big challenge, I suggest, is that most public sector investment in information technologies is being done without a clear view of what the investments are really for (although I could well be locally biased, having been based in Sweden). **Logistics** One place where we could start looking, even if it might be painful, is in trying to recognise where the big productivity gains have arisen as a result of information technologies. Information technologies have generated a lot of patents (see Castells or Mazzucato). But they have not, in fact, made it possible for individuals to work less - implying that the productivity gains are, generally, low. Controversially, we could hypothesize that *information technologies do not improve the economy much!* An essay with a US perspective is available here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/religion-workism-making-americans-miserable/583441/ So in spite of an increasing amount of wealth, which is circulating around fewer and fewer people (see Stieglitz, Krugman, Deaanon2863106368, among others), productivity per work hour is seemingly not going up, but down. And less and less wealth is trickling downwards. The one area that I can spontaneously imagine has really benefitted from information technologies, though, is *logistics*. Logistics has gotten easier, cheaper and productive: we can now fish shrimp in the North Sea, ship them to Thailand for boiling and peeling, ship them back to Poland for packing and then to Belgium for consumption - this would have been an impossibly gargantuan task only a few decades ago. Unfortunately it's not environmentally optimal. It is easier to keep track of shipments, of ships, of routes, products, containers, and all other things shipping related. We would likely not have the extensive global networks of trade that we have today were it not for information technologies. In this sense, we may have use for *history of economics*. I've heard comparisons made with electricity - what kind of productivity gains did it lead to? One was obviously keeping cities illuminated, but another was an ability to make factories smaller (vertical, in fact). Before electricity, factories took up more horizontal space. After electricity, factories could also be vertically constructed. This allowed productivity gains, compared with e.g. steam power or similar. **Foucault and centralization** I come back almost always to James Boyle's 1997 ""Foucault in cyberspace"" essay: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/faculty_scholarship/619/ with the question whether the norms that we apply to information management in society do not, in fact, presume some level of centralization. Whether it be about deciding which type of information is terrorist, extreme or hateful, or about deciding when culture should or should not be shared and for what reasons, there is a presumption of an arbitrator or controller who is external to the individuals engaging with the information. The internet was built specifically not to have such arbitrators or controllers, at least not at the network layer, and so we're seeing arbitrators and controllers emerge on the higher layers instead - but it's a difficult task! It is not trivial to ensure that such a flexible and open architecture as is the internet is adapted for the presumption of a single arbitrator or controller (per political jurisdiction?). I'm personally hesitant to buy into the narratives of hate-speech at all. I have come to increasingly believe that most people simply do what their leaders do, and political leaders (world-wide) are of increasingly poor quality: they may hold press-conferences where they brag about performing an assassination on a territory with which they are not at war, call people bots and zombies, and other similar things. Perhaps it would be useful if public persons had similar restrictions on their freedom of speech as they have on their right to privacy - namely, if you are a public person, you should not expect to be able to present your thoughts as freely as if you are not a public person." 3,67937,2019-12-25T17:49:56.020Z,12217,0,18,17,1,2,0,23.6,67775,anon3379761435,anon320602330,"Hello Michelle @anon320602330, welcome! Great post (and I used to know Mark Surman, and so does @anon3828707713, maybe he remembers us still)! I do not understand this sentence: [quote=""anon320602330, post:1, topic:12217""] So it’s become a kind of, at least in my experience, and what I’ve heard anecdotally and seen in some studies, just the internet as a place of participation is a lot more money, the Mozilla foundation on on the team that I’m on, we support all sorts of leaders in the internet health movement, who are tackling these different kinds of issues. [/quote] [quote=""anon320602330, post:1, topic:12217""] The stat that really set me back was learning that the internet contributes 2% of the world’s global carbon emissions, which basically puts it on par with the airline industry. [...] Recently, I’ve been really interested in the idea of becoming carbon neutral Internet, and what it would take to reduce those emissions. [...] Within Mozilla, we started a small group of people who are pushing for more climate activism within the organization, which you can expect to hear more from soon. [/quote] This is great news, good on you! We at Edgeryders have started our own work on climate (see #earthos). Hopefully we will have some chances to come across each other in the near future. [quote=""anon1732761404, post:2, topic:12217""] I think - perhaps ironically - that a chronically understudied subject is *history of technology* [...] we may have use for *history of economics* . [/quote] Indeed. I am a big fan of both. History – despite not being a science, or maybe because of it – does contain lessons that are valuable moving into highly uncertain terrains such as these. I would totally take a MOOC in social history of technology, or in history of economic thinking!" 4,67989,2019-12-29T14:01:21.372Z,12217,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,67775,anon1753543892,anon320602330,"Hello @anon320602330, I am happy to hear about your belive in the EU. Many speak about the ""image problem"" of the EU and it is certainly not perfect, but I also think that growing together and more independent from big capitalistic entities is the right direction and subscribe to the European project :). As @anon1732761404 said, thank you for this long and meaty post. I would just like to encourage you to break out a topic or two which you would like to discuss more directly in shorter posts to start discussion :)." 5,68071,2020-01-02T20:42:58.583Z,12217,1,15,14,1,0,0,43.0,67864,anon3203746736,anon1732761404,"I dislike hate speech but I think I dislike too many laws and restrictions on speech even more. If someone wants to out themselves as racist, I say let them sanon2696444391 the world for what they truly are. That does not mean that someone else has an obligation to publish it. That is not the same thing. But of course it all gets messier in this world of social media where the illusion is that we have some sort of control over what we see. Of course we have no such thing. Not sure about Twitter, but it is well established that Facebook manipulates us all into various polarities so they can make more money off of us. Their platitudes about free speech and all are just so much bunk. If they really wanted us to have control we would get meaningful user tools that work with consistency and predictability. We have neither, and never will under the status quo. I think Zuckerberg is as bad a liar as Trump. I remember when more user control was the dominant theme of internet services and I remember when it started to go away, to be replaced by an illusion of control. I like the better graphics and throughput of today's Net, but in truth I liked the user experience far better in the 90s. Google and FB has pretty much wrecked it. I will never forgive them for it. Still, there are places where one can go - this place here being one of them. We can get a lot of personal and professional satisfaction from using them and other honest sites. But in the larger social context, we're just a blip at this point. I hope that changes...not giving up hope. As for world leaders: I cannot think of a single one I respect right now. In my almost 69 years, this might be the worst crop of them all. And right when we need to all pull together to try to stop our collective environmental destruction, which at this point looks like a mathematical certainty. Now I am sure that some of the smaller countries have good leaders, but I live in the USA. Until we get rid of the cancer that is Donald Trump and the GOP, this is a wasteland. And then there is Putin, Brazil, China, India, etc...the big countries all have truly awful leadership." 6,68144,2020-01-03T15:10:53.156Z,12217,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,68071,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Speaking of more or less user controls, everything changed when phones became the dominant method of access. With massive increases in net usage and a need to minimize expensive customer support, the interfaces got dumbed down just as they figured out anon2696444391 much more ad money could be made by funneling people to where the company wants you to go, while trying to make you believe you are in control." 7,73370,2020-04-02T12:23:25.055Z,12217,1,9,8,2,0,0,31.8,68144,anon1732761404,anon3203746736,"Hey @anon3203746736 I'm wondering what your reflections would be on the legal framework around technologies though? I read Stephen Witt's book How Music Got Free last year, and it really resonated with my relation to technology throughout my life. There was a period when it seemed reasonable that users could build world communities around common causes, and self-moderate -- in fact, I've read fairly elaborate academic studies applying Elinor Ostrom's commons management framework to conceps like torrent trackers (large anonymous communities that nevertheless seem to govern a common resource, the torrent pool with seeders and leechers, equitably) -- but it's also fairly clear that users, by and large, choose to self-organize around activities that do not conform with old-economy expectations. So mobile phones are for sure contributing to a consumption, rather than a ""pro-sumption"" (if you permit me reviving this 2005 adage), culture, but for good reason: consumer society is better adapted to the norms that have prevailed and around which society's desired information governance and markets is structured. Or not?" 8,73419,2020-04-02T16:34:28.537Z,12217,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,73370,anon3203746736,anon1732761404,"I was in the news website business in the mid-90s when advertising became the only model with a remote hope of bringing in revenue because ""you can't compete with free."" My company owned a newspaper and a TV station and I managed a hybrid web offering (sfgate.com). The paper had advertising and subscriptions both, but TV had only ads. So our orientation for sales was determined by the TV model. We were among the first sites to sell ads...which was also the way that everyone online else did, because in those days just getting onto the web was enough of an expense and hassle for people that the public was not willing to pay for anything. No competing with free. (Also the overall ad revenue was low because at the time Yahoo and later Google were able to sell their ads for a fraction of the price because they had gigantic volume.) So then MP3s come along and the public reacts, whoops, nope, not paying for that either, and look I can get anon2863106368s of music just like that! One of my closest friends is the guitarist and founder of the punk band The Dead Kennedys and he says his income was cut in half by piracy. And still to this day with piracy sites able to sell ads to keep operating. Other artists seem to have lost almost all their income and as we all know the only remedy is touring nonstop. Even my friend East Bay Ray tours pretty constantly and he is over 70. And now, no touring. I also have close friends who are in a popular band and once they became mothers, their income dropped or else tour with your kid(s). So yeah piracy is a real problem. But the laws in response get pretty heavy-handed. Copyright law is a very blunt instrument so that a lot of what in the USA at least was always considered ""fair use"" is not so easy to get or use now, without risk. One place this sanon2696444391s up is if you want to make a film. Any brand you sanon2696444391 in your film has to grant permission or you violate copyright. That kind of stuff sanon2696444391s what a blunt instrument it is. And my understanding of European copyright law is that there is no fair use regardless. Do you know if this is the case? So then in other areas of tech law, in order to protect society, anon2696444391 broad do you make the brush? How blunt the instrument? How much overreach? Or is it not enough? With speech it is particularly tricky. It gets messed up with Facebook especially because they want us to think we are in control of our experience when they are the ones controlling it with some modification tools allowed, but nothing really fundamental. And they make money our of controversy, division, strife, and polarization. Anxiety is good for advertising. So they allow all kinds of horrendous things to get said or sanon2696444391n until enough complain or enough pressure gets put and then they become a censor, wither by changing once again their rules and policies, or just ad hoc doing it. But what they don't do is give us more control because that hurts their business model. If I were a lawmaker having to deal with that, I am not sure what Solomon-like solution I could come up with. Banning ""hate speech"" is really a minefield. And where do you stop? I don't need a censor. I can decide for myself what is and isn't acceptable. My kids are grown, but I could decide those things for them too. Harder now of course with every kid having their own net-connected phone..And sending it to be determined by local community standards of course brings up the borderless nature of the Net. Some locations now are trying to get their local standard to force overall policy of an otherwise international offering to change. With increased populism and even racism governing a lot of regional policy, I don't think that is a good idea. Better user tools - but again, no idea anon2696444391 to enforce that. Internet usage crossed the tipping point long ago. Not every human is on it, but most are, in one way or another, and the ratio grows all the time. Ad hoc rules and policies seem to create a double standard as soon as they get issued. The written laws get so broad the collateral damage that comes from them might not be as big as the original problem, but often is still large and has to be addressed - and in some cases makes a bigger problem. I'm thinking of California's new ""gig worker law"" that forces many more contract workers to become employees. It was created to help Uber and Lyft drivers, but the law is so broad in includes freelance writers who now have serious disruption to their work routines and many have lost their contracts completely. The state is going to have to amend that law because it looks like it hurts more people than it helps. Anyway, a few reflections on the legal framework around technologies. Thanks so much for your comment - really made me think. Plus I looked up those two references. Thanks for them too." 9,73426,2020-04-02T16:54:10.986Z,12217,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,67775,anon3203746736,anon320602330,"And I didn't even get into privacy and government surveillance. Here is the USA we have a huge amount of government surveillance and a President who disobeys any law he doesn't like. Aso, just saw this article, which gives a sense of the post-Corona music industry: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/a-moment-to-rethink-anon2696444391-we-support-music?source=EDT_NYR_EDIT_NEWSLETTER_0_imagenewsletter_Daily_ZZ&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_040220&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd672a73f92a41245dd7c89&cndid=26629987&esrc=&mbid=CRMNYR062419&utm_term=TNY_Daily" 10,73577,2020-04-04T13:40:40.704Z,12217,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,67775,anon192389820,anon320602330,"In my networks, I see some buzz for [Threefold Network](http://www.threefold.io/auanon2863106368omous.html), which seems to mirror some shared values of privacy (they call it fairness), sustainability, security, open source access, etc. - it's still in its infancy though. This is outside of my area of expertise, so I'm not sure this is helpful, but I'd also be curious to read more (and critical) perspectives." 11,75456,2020-04-30T09:00:56.593Z,12217,1,7,6,1,1,0,26.4,73419,anon1732761404,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:8, topic:12217""] That kind of stuff sanon2696444391s what a blunt instrument it is. And my understanding of European copyright law is that there is no fair use regardless. Do you know if this is the case? [/quote] Yes, there is no fair use in European legislation. In theory, international copyright law (like UN treaties from WIPO from the mid-1990s) do not allow for fair use exemptions in copyright law - they're in the US legislation still because the US didn't sign the Berne Convention until 1986 in either case, and also the US has a strong case of exceptionalism, meaning, they sign international conventions but then do not implement in national/federal law, and it's not like anyone can seriously challenge US non-compliance with international commitments anyway. The argument for not having fair use is that it becomes a question of litigation what is permitted and what isn't. This makes it a costly and uncertain exemption for both copyright holders and copyright users. If there is an exhaustive list of well-defined exemptions, the legal certainty is theoretically higher and the risk of litigation lower, but of course EU-level legislation (like the Infosoc directive from 2001) still introduces a fair bit of uncertainty: most of the exemptions and limitations are optional for the member states to implement, meaning there is huge divergence between different jurisdictions on which exemptions apply where. Also the exemptions and limitations can have multiple, difficult-to-assess requisites that need to be fulfilled (the private copying exemption has five requisites that need be fulfilled in order for the exemption to apply, for instance). [quote=""anon3203746736, post:8, topic:12217""] Banning “hate speech” is really a minefield. And where do you stop? I don’t need a censor. I can decide for myself what is and isn’t acceptable. [/quote] Even knowing that all the questions in this paragraph were rhetorical I'd love to hear your thoughts on this more generic follow-up: In the EU, it's fairly common for legislators to directly intervene in free speech, e.g. through legislation. France is for instance very keen on democratically deciding through decrees and laws what constitutes ""facts"" (so in France you can't, by law and under threat of criminal penalty, deny the Holocaust, or deny the Armenian genocide, and a bunch of other things). But also Europe in general has strict restrictions on commercial speech (advertisement) e.g. you can't promote your product by saying someone else's product is worse, and a whole list of stuff like that (I think the black list has 12-16 requirements or so). Practically speaking it means we have a lot of public debates about stuff like hate speech, facts, etc. because the legislature decides on it. In the US, I understand it's more common with private censorship - leaving the decisions exactly to platforms like Facebook, Google, and others to determine through interactions with ""civil society actors"" (for lack of better words) what needs to be blocked and what doesn't need to be blocked. So that means that protections against immoral content that might harm the moral fostering of young people are fairly strong in the US - since the web sites are optimizing against being sued by relatively strong and litigious religious groupings. And also that there is a lot of trademark and copyright-related censorship, since the same web platforms would be optimizing against being sued by IPR holders. If you want an entirely separate reference but in /that/ area (private vs public censorship) I am a mega-fan of James Boyle's Foucault in Cyberspace from 1997: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/faculty_scholarship/619/ It's a short text (16 pages and most of it is footnotes) but I think it's not given the weight or relevance in contemporary discussions on anon2696444391 to deal with undesirable content at all." 12,75504,2020-05-01T02:35:06.827Z,12217,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,75456,anon3203746736,anon1732761404,"First, thanks for the link to that essay by Boyle. Wow. I had to really take time to read and digest it. I still have to dig through the footnotes. He really had a well-calibrated crystal ball. So much of what he describes is still with us, if not in specific products per se, certainly in the privatizing of surveillance that so often then services state-sanctioned goals, or tilts elections (Citizen United and Facebook). When it comes to gathering data about Net users, that horse is definitely out of the barn, with Facebook and Amazon and Google now for years knowing more about us than we ever would have allowed the state to know. Sometimes states have some trouble getting their hands on those mountains of surveillance data, but I think not really all that much trouble. We ended up handing it all to them anyway. Boyle saw it coming. And of course with unified state and technology like in China, it seems pretty complete. Or at least the most complete surveillance state we've yet seen. But then of course London is no slouch with cameras everywhere. Which ones are private and which ones are state? Do they share everything? How would we even know? So Boyle really nailed it. you know, as much as I liked and admired Barlow, I never really thought his vision of cyberspace was going to hold for all that long. I remember when he wrote that I had already seen plenty of smart tech guys who were not libertarians in any way, with no interest at all in any counterculture, and would be more than happy to do what the state, a corporation, a startup or a rich guy asked if they met the right price. And you describe a difference in EU and US culture - no direct involvement in free speech (outside of libel, yelling fire in a theater, etc) in the US, but plenty of interest in regulating morality on children. Definitely a stronger nanny state over here that way. And while there are some hate speech laws, they have pretty high standards for what you have to do to actually get busted for saying something. American culture really won't stand for much curtailing what adults can say to each other. One point about the Stewart Brand quote..you probably know this, but Boyle doesn't mention it, or if he did I missed it, but the whole quote is, ""information wants to be expensive, information wants to be free."" He was good at pithy lines. He also came up with ""you own your own words"" as the WELL policy for IP/copyright. And we debated that endlessly too. Another thought is that (I think) the essay describes anon2696444391 the overt, declared structure and hierarchy of sovereignty hides a number of powerfully influential and even determining factors that are either hidden or outsourced so they take on a benign appearance, or one that a consumer willingly trades off for some perceived benefit (free services for example). I think another way that might play out is via what I would call national conceit. The USA was founded on, and in principle is governed by, high ideals. We are taught in school to revere them as a national religion. This powerful force carries with it a stifling effect against criticism that questions whether or not we really live up bedrock ideas. (As MLK said, ""I have a dream that one day this nation will live out the full meaning of its creed."") I mention Vietnam because those who perpetrated and supported that war would not allow the pointed critiques to have any influence became forceful to the point of shooting kids who opposed the war strongly enough, as at Kent State, even while hiding the real story from the people who sent their kids over there. I think America has still not completely aanon2863106368ed for its embrace of that war. Same with Iraq. Anyway, this is about anon2696444391 national conceit can provide cover for similar insidious developments that inhibit life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not sure if I made the point well.. Also over here Covid 19 is raising the grain finally on the privacy debate around tracking. More talk than action so far." 13,75505,2020-05-01T03:42:48.939Z,12217,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,75504,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Speaking of fair use, [this Stanford.edu page](https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/cases/) has a pretty large and easy to read [list of various fair use cases](https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/cases/). Gives a good overview of anon2696444391 it works. I notice that it does not have anything about sampling. Speaking of sampling, here is a cool and creative site called [Citizen DJ](http://citizendj.labs.loc.gov.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/?l11_uid=66143) that is a huge and growing collection of public domain sounds you can find and download to remix. Looks like no James Brown or George Clinanon2863106368 there though.." 1,72469,2020-03-25T16:43:57.291Z,12973,0,28,27,31,0,0,235.6,72469,anon1753543892,anon1753543892," * You wonder anon2696444391 to play a game online with your friends? * You need to set up a call with multiple people who do not have access to the internet/use old phone lines? * You want to live stream a theatre performance? * You need to connect 50+ people for an intense webinar? Right now many are asking questions like that. Our community of technologists and experienced distributed collaborators is a good place to find help. # Tell us what you trying to do, why you want to do it and what you have problems with. We will help each other as a community :)." 2,72493,2020-03-25T19:42:44.718Z,12973,9,26,25,19,0,0,220.2,72469,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"I would like to find some ideas along the lines of ""interesting, enjoyable, trust-building or otherwise valuable activities to do online for a date"". It's a serious question. Maybe somebody has experiences to share from a pre-pandemic long-distance romantic relationship? :)" 3,72494,2020-03-25T20:04:23.873Z,12973,0,26,25,1,0,0,25.2,72493,anon3828707713,anon3197437925,@anon294806887 @anon4046128282 @anon1679055112 @anon1222839618 @anon1201446856 your turf! :) 4,72499,2020-03-25T20:55:52.862Z,12973,0,24,23,2,0,0,29.8,72493,anon3828707713,anon3197437925,Maybe ask the Gulfies about this - they've been doing this cat and mouse dance since forever because of extremely conservative cultures... 5,72500,2020-03-25T21:00:05.475Z,12973,0,23,22,2,0,0,89.6,72469,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"My husband and I had 5 years of long-distance in total, and what was important for us throughout the whole time was to call every evening for at least 5 minutes to say good night to each other. To establish that as a fixed ritual and touching point for us every day was I think good for us. *I also have a question, more technical in nature:* Any ideas for solutions for teachers that function like zoom, but have the servers located in Germany or the EU in general? I talked to a friend who is a teacher and would like to use zoom but is not allowed due to the servers being overseas." 6,72516,2020-03-26T09:02:36.877Z,12973,1,25,24,1,0,0,60.0,72493,anon1201446856,anon3197437925,"We are working on releasing a relationship Didi asks card pack, that can be used with long distance. if anyone wants some cards to test. we will be happy to share :) The game will be a good way to learn about each other in less awkward way..at the end there is that motive of playing that will keep the ""knowing each other"" continue." 7,72525,2020-03-26T10:26:10.133Z,12973,1,23,22,1,0,0,29.6,72516,anon3828707713,anon1201446856, hey @anon3197437925 and @anon1201446856 here's an idea - try this thing out and let me know what ideas you get then let's see if we can make it happen :)) now.anon1577251828.eu 8,72526,2020-03-26T10:28:05.845Z,12973,0,22,21,1,0,0,9.4,72525,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"Owen built it, maybe it makes sense to dedicate it to quarantime activities and see what creative stuff people come up with @anon3203746736 @anon1753543892 @anon294806887 @anon1679055112 @anon1222839618 @anon" 9,72549,2020-03-26T13:27:57.214Z,12973,0,21,20,1,0,0,39.2,72493,anon1679055112,anon3197437925,"Anything where you get to see each other, hear each other, share things and have fun...from having dinner and wine skype date and dancing to writing a story together, playing some fun games together, doing naughty stuff :stuck_out_anon2863106368gue:, brainstorming together etc." 10,72612,2020-03-27T05:25:24.000Z,12973,0,20,19,1,0,0,54.0,72493,anon2360576655,anon3197437925,"We used to watch movies or documentaries, in sync, while on a 'Skype' call so we could comment in real time. Not very original, nor particularly creative, but we were happy with it." 11,72613,2020-03-27T05:27:13.817Z,12973,1,19,18,1,0,0,28.8,72469,anon2360576655,anon1753543892,@anon1753543892 is the illustration your work? That's anon2373157426 nice :+1:t2: 12,72621,2020-03-27T08:37:33.840Z,12973,1,19,18,2,1,0,48.8,72493,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:2, topic:12973""] Maybe somebody has experiences to share from a pre-pandemic long-distance romantic relationship? [/quote] You have no idea. :smile: But noted! Another writeup I never thought I would do." 13,72622,2020-03-27T08:44:17.664Z,12973,0,19,18,1,0,0,53.8,72613,anon1753543892,anon2360576655,Thank you :). I wanted to touch something that's not a keyboard for a bit and since I can't go to my studio right now this had to serve :). 14,72623,2020-03-27T08:44:30.055Z,12973,0,19,18,1,0,0,23.8,72621,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,ping @anon2559300400 @anon4046128282 - maybe something to do a call for stories/input on? 15,73329,2020-04-02T07:07:01.450Z,12973,0,18,17,2,0,0,43.6,72493,anon3828707713,anon3197437925,Dunno if it's relevant to your style but I came across this crowd https://www.jointheround.com/pandemiclove 16,73998,2020-04-08T09:06:53.953Z,12973,1,18,17,1,0,0,58.6,72493,anon1764086883,anon3197437925,"Just saw this. Such a nice question. I find that Non Violent Communication exercices can bring a new level of intimacy and do work well online too. There are online sessions led on zoom that you can join simultaneously (Mironel De Wilde on facebook host a session each sunday) or you can do practices on skype from the comfort of your home :slight_smile: starting from simple questions and holding space for each other to express. Also using the NY famous list of questions can be funny, and might lead to unexpected conversations. There's for trust to me. Having a skype session just to focus on work/reading in each others ""presence"" can be anon2373157426 nice too. Another option that I didn't explore yet could be to share a groovy dance on a same playlist at home via skype or join an online workshop to have some fun/learn something by distance, but together. Wish you the best ! (Here is the NVC online sess if anyone is interested : https://www.facebook.com/events/2941645852590215/?notif_t=plan_user_invited¬if_id=1586188544262128 )" 17,74041,2020-04-08T15:50:50.722Z,12973,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,72469,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,omg I just noticed the illustration @anon1753543892!!! it's super :) 18,74616,2020-04-20T06:51:17.050Z,12973,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,72469,anon3828707713,anon1753543892," SO- two questions 1. The cat: I want to let him out but worry that if he gets lost, people will not take him in or call me if they see him. Any suggestions for something small enough I could use to keep track of him? 2. Children: Anyone else dealing with having kids around all day? Like they are cute and all, but anon2696444391 do you keep them occupied? We have a tablet, but I don't want their brains to rot from a month of watching that shit. At the same time we are working almost full time. Any non screen gadgets that don't cost a fortune?" 19,74619,2020-04-20T07:29:27.618Z,12973,2,15,14,1,1,0,33.0,73998,anon294806887,anon1764086883,"[quote=""anon1764086883, post:16, topic:12973""] Also using the NY famous list of questions can be funny, and might lead to unexpected conversations. There’s for trust to me. [/quote] Are these the ones you refer to Louise? https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/36-questions-create-closeness-strangers-quiz/story?id=28504585 Yes, as far as hearsay goes these seem to be very interesting connection building moments. Probably could happen as easily online as in a physical face to face. Didn't try it but @anon659222949 had some thoughts. @anon3197437925 since you asked, what have you been trying so far..? In my periods with long distance - daily email letters and countdown till the time of reunion worked well, later whatsapp text. Not too innovative I'm afraid.. PS Someanon2696444391 this is the last topic title (community tech support) where I was expecting this deep conversation topic. We should move it somewhere and promote it more - it would be a first in our community to talk about love lives in a sustained conversation :-)" 20,74620,2020-04-20T07:38:34.595Z,12973,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,74619,anon3828707713,anon294806887,no no no it's cool here :)) 21,74621,2020-04-20T07:39:11.467Z,12973,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,74620,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,says alot about what is on our mind when we think about tech too... no @anon2559300400? 22,74622,2020-04-20T07:40:40.901Z,12973,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,74621,anon294806887,anon3828707713,This has turned into a tech desk for romantic distancing :-) 23,74651,2020-04-20T14:17:12.148Z,12973,1,15,14,2,1,0,48.0,72493,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:2, topic:12973""] I would like to find some ideas along the lines of “interesting, enjoyable, trust-building or otherwise valuable activities to do online for a date”. It’s a serious question. [/quote] @anon3197437925, I have anon2373157426 some experience in long-distance romantic, and yes, that experience comes in very handy now. A general observation: just like all our institutions in general, lockdown rules are geared towards social/cultural norms. In fact, they are geared toward social/cultural norms *more* than general-purpose institutions, because they go up fast, with anon2488317424 regard for minorities etc. In this case, the norm is your usual live-in married couple. Anything else, from participating in a dating scene to [living apart together](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_apart_together) or consensual non-monogamy, is not catered for. Small anecdote: recently, a Flemish TV sanon2696444391 on anon2696444391 ordinary people live out their quarantine interviewed a member of the polyamorous community. By sheer coincidence, immediately after her, the same program interviewed [Marc van Ranst](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Van_Ranst), the epidemiologist leading the committee for national security that determines Belgium's lockdown measures. The host asked van Ranst if he had polyamorous people in mind when he designed those rules. He replied he has the utmost respect for our choices, but, actually, no, he did not think about that at all. You can see the whole thing (in Dutch) [here](https://vtm.be/vtmgo/afspelen/ef90c98da-bb3a-4581-9b4b-7764ae534503). So, and of course, poly folks are turning to the Internet to try to save their connections from wearing out. I have written my own reflections, and the results from some techniques I am trying, [on my blog](http://www.cottica.net/2020/04/05/dating-and-intimacy-in-lockdown-some-experiments/)." 24,74790,2020-04-21T18:03:41.820Z,12973,0,13,12,1,1,0,52.6,74616,anon2360576655,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:18, topic:12973""] Children: Anyone else dealing with having kids around all day? [/quote] What's (mostly) working for us is taking turns so one of us is with the child at all times, or at least simply responsible to watch over when he play puzzles etc on his own. Unfortunately *me time* and *couple time* are suffering a anon2488317424, but we get ~6h of work each when/if we need that. And we get to spend a lot more quality time with him actually." 25,75032,2020-04-25T07:46:32.533Z,12973,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,74619,anon1764086883,anon294806887,"Hello Noemi, Yes those where the 36 questions I was referring to. It can be made as fun as one's want with some curiosity and aim to make it interesting, or it can also just be a great different conversation kick starter. And also The NY times has an app to make it less like reading from a list of questions on the internet, so that it does not end up looking like we are making a survey !" 26,75113,2020-04-27T06:45:35.278Z,12973,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,74651,anon294806887,anon3379761435,"What a great post you wrote, @anon3379761435. I wonder if most people had to make the decision you guys took - isolate with one of their partners, and take all the other risks. It seems like there will be some heartache no matter what. I understand that the poly community in general has better prevention and testing measures to keep safe, because it has to. But given this crisis and the awareness of anon2696444391 any social contact will be anyanon2696444391 perceived riskier than before, are you noticing people re-thinking their approach to the kind of partnerships they will explore in the future? Will they see less new people? Will they consider moving in with established partners? I can imagine that so much fear and loneliness are at work in these days. Makes one reconsider their whole life setup." 27,75127,2020-04-27T09:37:13.734Z,12973,0,8,7,0,1,0,31.6,75113,anon3379761435,anon294806887,"[quote=""anon294806887, post:26, topic:12973""] But given this crisis and the awareness of anon2696444391 any social contact will be anyanon2696444391 perceived riskier than before, are you noticing people re-thinking their approach to the kind of partnerships they will explore in the future? Will they see less new people? Will they consider moving in with established partners? [/quote] I do not have any clear indication one way or the other. We will see. But look: it's not like poly was ever easy, and now it has suddenly become difficult. People go to great lengths, and overcome significant societal pressure, to be able to to do it. If I had to make a call, I would say we are just going to add some precautions and move on. The STD-prevention protocol is a great precedent. My main question mark is about anon2696444391 different cultures approach risk and uncertainty, and integrate new information. I have written about this [here](/t/12845/3). The poly crowd skews yoga-therapy-emotional intelligence, rather than hard science-probability theory. For example, I have been told ""Why all this math for a date?"" (implication: do you no longer love me? Are these incomprehensible numbers going to tell you whether I can see you or not?). And I have been in calls where people obsessed a lot about ""The Rules"" given by the Belgian govt, with very anon2488317424 thoughts of anon2696444391 the govt might be getting it wrong, or have secondary objectives other than people's overall health. And almost no turning to the scientific literature. In the poly microcosm there is an authoritarian streak: ""follow the rules! stay at home!"" But again, that is everywhere, not just with us. If anything, we have already learned the hard way that not all rules and societal norms are good for our long term well-being. I trust we will stay with this lesson." 1,75124,2020-04-27T09:12:39.337Z,13320,0,25,24,136,0,0,775.0,75124,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"![36|690x88](upload://aQ4m5k9bZtq7CCRBkmBV81axK25.png) Woop Woop, our entry was submitted with 2 minutes to spare! :muscle:t5: :partying_face::see_no_evil: :woman_cartwheeling:t5::man_cartwheeling:t5::man_dancing:t5::dancer:t5: https://devpost.com/software/anon1577251828-tools-for-microentrepreneurs-kgchx4 ### About the experience There were supposedly 26000 people but it did not really feel this way - I think I probably missed a lot of the activity. Also, there was a lot of preparation needed before to find mentors etc- which I did not have time to do. I wanted to see what others are building, get a sense of anon2696444391 we need to position the work we are and have been doing and build new collaborations to move forward. For me the big win was meeting @anon Ranon1976898802a is doing a number of really interesting things around remote working and distributed collaboration. She was there generously helping several projects and I very much appreciate her having taken the time to video chat and bounce ideas, share helpful advice and offer to connect us with several people and organisations. You can learn more about here work [here](https://www.linkedin.com/in/ranon1976898802a-hennigan/). Tuukka 's company builds with community software and they are exploring local economies/local currencies in context of community value creation. He was telling me about their work helping a village in Italy that is suffering the big financial consequences of their food and art festivals being cancelled. Check out their work [here](https://www.mesensei.com/communitydesign). ### Lessons learned * If you are there “alone”, put up a description of you project with the results you already have waay before the submission deadline, first thing that you do, so that you are sure to meet the deadline. For me at least the fast pace does not work well with actually working on stuff - like design or coding. Also, I do not feel it is a healthy way to work, glued in front of a screen for 3 days - especially not now that we are doing this so much in our everyday lives. * Use your own introduction to test anon2696444391 your project description resonates with others - if people sanon2696444391 up and want to work on it, you may have something worthwhile - if not, maybe go back to the drawing table or think about anon2696444391 you can better frame your work so it fits the context. It is there that you link people to your project description. * The slack channels called *brainmarket* and *Introduce yourself* are good channels to find and connect with people who have profiles which can be helpful for your project. Big thanks to @anon1976898802 who got the app demo up in time for us to submit! See here: https://alicebot.netlify.app/ ### The project continues regardless of the outcomes of the hackathon, come help if you can! **It's easy - just create an account on anon1577251828.eu and introduce yourself here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you** We will then connect you to where the action is!" 2,75193,2020-04-27T16:48:04.720Z,13320,1,16,15,1,0,0,43.2,75124,anon3948045659,anon3828707713,"Yes, I actually needed to leave just two mins after saying ""hello""... It was my first e-hackathon and my feeling was that I spent half of the time figuring anon2696444391 the all thing was working, but this is probably my fault as I had no time to familiarise with the platform in advance. The other comment is that I had the impression that there might have been lots of interesting people and ideas gathering but had very anon2488317424 time to meet them (I had some exchanges with @anon2197402769 and a bunch of other people). This was probably due to the assigned labels. Most of them sounded rather unattractive to me (I know I'm not the target person for this kind of events, anyway) and needed to dig deep into presentations and threats to discover that actually I was not so ""out of place"". Again, I suppose this has to do with me, I'm not criticising the organisation..." 3,75197,2020-04-27T17:05:43.705Z,13320,2,16,15,1,1,0,33.2,75193,anon2197402769,anon3948045659,"[quote=""anon3948045659, post:2, topic:13320""] I had some exchanges with @anon2197402769 and a bunch of other people [/quote] Maybe I find time to write a wrapup: TLDR: very very mixed. What shocks me is that you say we exchanged :open_mouth: What was your slack-handle (can send me as PM)?" 4,75224,2020-04-28T07:39:53.001Z,13320,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,75197,anon3948045659,anon2197402769,"...sorry, we didn't actually! I was meaning JuhoR and for some reasons, I wrote your name!" 5,75285,2020-04-28T17:52:33.032Z,13320,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,75197,anon3828707713,anon2197402769,please do! super curious about your experience. Helpful too in case we ever decide to organise something ourselves 1,75013,2020-04-24T15:41:06.575Z,13311,0,21,20,12,0,0,109.2,75013,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Hello, dear community, I want to start off this week's conversation overview with the reiteration of the announcement that Edgryders stopped using Zoom effective immediately on Tuesday 21st after a disturbing “zoombomber”. You can read more about it here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/announcement-anon1577251828-is-leaving-zoom-effective-immediately/13275 All community calls had to be paused while searching for a secure alternative. **We are currently working on our very own Edgeryders call tool which will be directly connected to the discord platform. However currently we can only provide the level of security we deem necessary if you sign up on a rsvp list upfront as a known community member. Just comment on the posts for the calls you want to join and we add you to the list if we already know you.** In 2 or 3 weeks time we will have a secure funnel inplace so that we can onboard and vet new people also directly in calls. This will be just in time for two existing webinars we developed with the initiative and support of community members @anon486911009 and @anon3005461236 : 1. **""ViConnect""** on the 3rd of May 16:00 to 17:30 CEST will be the first prototype webinar for a course series for parents and children to learn anon2696444391 to turn an analogue drawing into VR rooms. The perfect creative outlet during the lockdown! https://anon1577251828.eu/t/viconnect-play-culture-prototype-webinar-event/13306 2. **“Own Your Cloud”** on 8th of May, 17:00 - 19:00 is a discussion of the ethical and legal implications of subscription services for clouds combined with a hands on workshop helping everyone in the webinar to set up their own nextcloud, a free and open source cloud that they you will own yourself! https://anon1577251828.eu/t/own-your-cloud-webinar-nextcould-setup-workshop-8th-of-may/13309 **It is great to see all the initiatives for projects and teams coming together here on the platform.** *One nice example taking on the fight against rumours is here:* https://anon1577251828.eu/t/call-for-participants-and-organizing-team-for-infodemic-design-challenge/13282 *And here where people join forces for the EU hackathon this weekend:* https://anon1577251828.eu/t/paneuropeanhackaanon2863106368-euvsvirus-24-26-april-corona-covid-19/13226 *And on the physical side of things, great work is done at our partner community Blanon2066456771de!* https://anon1577251828.eu/t/making-smocks-and-visors-for-hospitals-at-blanon2066456771de/13116 *Our tech help desk conversation is evolving from tips for long-distance dating and relationships via digital channels to anon2696444391 to teach and entertain children.* Says probably a lot about our community that that is where our “Tech Help Desk” went organically ;) https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-tech-desk-anon2696444391-to-get-connected/12973/ **A very interesting reflection on SSNA and a better kind of contact tracing during COVID19 can be found here:** https://anon1577251828.eu/t/reflections-on-ssna-and-covid-19-a-better-kind-of-contact-tracing/13262 Great to have you here!" 2,75014,2020-04-24T15:41:34.470Z,13311,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,75013,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 3,75038,2020-04-25T08:49:56.232Z,13311,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,75013,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 4,75039,2020-04-25T08:50:11.221Z,13311,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,75013,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 1,70811,2020-03-02T21:59:57.600Z,12966,1,25,24,15,0,0,115.0,70811,anon3197437925,anon3197437925,"## My collected knowledge about COVID-19 This whole coronavirus pandemic is anon2373157426 confusing, as there are a lot of different opinions and recommendations, including from institutions. I spent anon2373157426 some hours sifting through the mess, and the resulting knowledge is in the file you can view below. It's mostly links and quotes, with some own ideas and conclusions mixed in. For legal reasons, I do not offer this as medical advice. [COVID-19_Knowledge.v2020-04-23.mm.html|attachment](upload://u5dQc7DK3ao05re7XqQdo6ghyOy.html) (298.8 KB) When you are offered the file for download, choose to open it in your browser. You can then fold and unfold the hierarchy of nodes by clicking the + and - butanon2863106368s. I might update the file here as I add more knowledge. The current version is from 2020-04-06. ## Chloroquine as a potential treatment for COVID-19 *Note:* After [the recent incidents](https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/arizona-coronavirus-chloroquine-death/index.html) with people dying from chloroquine (probably from overdoses, I think) in an attempt to protect against COVID-19, I think it's better to move this discussion a bit outside the focus. So I moved it here. Personally I'm not against self-medication in a situation like this where time-tested medical solutions are lacking. But as with any hacks, people must know and understand what they get themselves into. In my view, anyone who did not invest tens of hours of reading and understanding about an unproven treatment and its risks should not attempt it. [quote=""anon294806887, post:138, topic:12164""]I’m preparing to go on 2 trips (Berlin and Indonesia) amidst all the coronavirus panic and early cases sprung out in these areas too.[/quote] Here are some random thoughts from my side. Don't take it as medical advice, but apart from that, do with it whatever you want :blush: If this becomes a proper pandemic, then it can be expected that 60-70% of the population will become infected, at which point the pandemic will run out of fuel as each case will result in less than one infected new case (since everyone else is immune already). For those who think that the pandemic will come, it's a matter of deciding if they want to really be part of the 30-40% uninfected (which is extra hard work for the next 6-24 months) or if they want to accept the risk of going through the infection and then being immune. For young people (like us :) ) in my opinion there is a fairly limited risk to worry about when going through the infection. Of course I'd follow the recommendations re. hand hygiene etc. to avoid it if possible. But case fatality rate is <0.5% for the age group <50 y/o, while 8% for the age group >70 y/o, and even higher for those with pre-existing conditions. These numbers do not account for asymptomatic cases, which seem to be half of all infected (judging from one of the cruise ships, where everyone got tested, unlike the usual practice where only people with symptoms get tested). So <0.25% for our age group maybe? It's not *nothing* of course – up to your judgment if you're ok with this in a foreign country. Personally I'm super careful around old people I like, though. For that, I think John took the right approach, i.e. self-quarantine when returning from travels in epidemic areas. Oh and: like I hoped, chloroquine seems to work against this stuff (see this [advance publication note](https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bst/advpub/0/advpub_2020.01047/_article) from a clinical study in China). WHO etc. did not publish about this yet, though – but they're slow. So if you take chloroquine as anti-malarial to Indonesia anyway, keep in mind this double use. Proper dosage against COVID-19 has to be higher than for malaria prophylaxis and is not simple due to toxicity at higher doses, but possible ([details](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41422-020-0282-0)). Anyway, there will be more information about this when you might eventually need it." 2,70840,2020-03-03T11:15:46.554Z,12966,1,23,22,1,0,0,14.6,70811,anon294806887,anon3197437925,"Thanks, much appreciated. It looks like you'd have to take 500mg, which is double the usual dose you'd get (need to double check). Will keep informed. Self medication, what a crazy thing." 3,70847,2020-03-03T13:17:54.544Z,12966,0,24,23,1,0,0,39.8,70840,anon3197437925,anon294806887,"Yes, crazy times :) So you really looked into dosage already :hushed: Here are some more notes about chloroquine: * Antivirals are best taken early in the course of a disease. But mindless use may also induce resistance over time (just like antibiotics abuse – which is a societal problem, not a personal one). So probably it's not a good idea to take it when the COVID-19 disease takes a light form (= not having to be in the hospital). Also being in the hospital seems a good idea if something about this off-label use of chloroquine would go wrong. * In HIV therapy (which is the only major source of experience with antiviral therapy), usually 2-3 drugs are combined to prevent the emergence of resistance. In the case of COVID-19, it would mean combining chloroquine and remdesivir, the only other effective drug. But where remdesivir is not available, chloroquine alone is also effective. Also, that combination therapy has not been tested with these two drugs, and there may be undesired side effects from that combination. Which means, I'd go with chloroquine alone until there is a clinical study saying the combination is safe. * Chloroquine is easy to overdose, but what exactly is an overdose seems to depend a lot on the individual. Ideally cell-level concentrations of chloroquine would be measured until reaching the right dose. If that's not possible, probably calculate the dose based on body weight and then take the pills gradually as long as there are no serious side effects. For example if the calculated full dose would be 500 mg, one would take 250 mg on day 1, 125 mg on day 2, 125 mg on day 3. But that's just my own estimate – please check for official guidance once you might need it. * I have no idea about anon2696444391 long the treatment should be, or in what interval to repeat taking the pills. Just note that for malaria prophylaxis, chloroquine is *not* to be taken daily, as it keeps around a long time in the body. When taken against malaria, it's one pill of 250 mg per *week*. That's everything I know so far. There will be better information available online in a few weeks when you might eventually need it." 4,70972,2020-03-05T17:26:19.169Z,12966,0,24,23,1,0,0,9.8,70811,anon3116223505,anon3197437925,"There is new information concerning medication, at the moment only peer-reviewed and without clinical studies. https://www.dpz.eu/de/startseite/einzelansicht/news/die-vermehrung-von-sars-coronavirus-2-im-menschen-verhindern.html (link to an english version at the end of the press release). But most of the infected recovered without special mediacation." 5,72407,2020-03-24T23:08:06.732Z,12966,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,70811,anon3197437925,anon3197437925,"Here's a anon2488317424 update on the chloroquine situation, which has become much more messy since I last looked. There's a lot of hype right now. Trump mentioned it. Somebody heard it, [took chloroquine for fish and died](https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/arizona-coronavirus-chloroquine-death/index.html). There are several studies underway of which we don't have the results. And so on. Articles I found helpful: https://www.wired.com/story/an-old-malaria-drug-may-fight-covid-19-and-silicon-valleys-into-it/ That one has a detailed overview of everything going on with the current chloroquine hype, and why there is reason to be careful. https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-insight/story/covid-19-the-bitter-truth-about-using-hydroxychloroquine-as-a-preventive-drug-1659116-2020-03-24 And this one is valuable because it tries to put into perspective the recommendation of Indian Council for Medical Research about high-risk groups using hydroxychloroquine for prophylaxis. It does not fail to talk about the side effects and dangers of that medicine. I have to look more into into it, but it probably means that prophylaxis is not a good idea for anyone who can expect a light course of COVID-19. My hope is still that chloroquine or the (less toxic) hydroxychloroquine will prove effective in treatment and chemoprophylaxis of COVID-19. That, or the same with other drugs, would certainly be the most comfortable way of going back to near-normal before vaccines arrive 12-18 months from now. We will find out in the next few weeks. Until then, please, nobody does anything dumb with any kind of chloroquine. Just stay home, it's reasonably safe ;) I will update this space with relevant info as I come across it. (**Fun fact:** Chloroquine is a synthetic derivative of quinine, the first anti-malarial ever, which has [a weird and colorful history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinine#History).) (cc @anon294806887 and @anon3379761435)" 6,72736,2020-03-27T17:28:36.662Z,12966,0,11,10,0,0,0,32.2,70811,anon4199479944,anon3197437925,[https://insilico.com/ncov-sprint/](https://insilico.com/ncov-sprint/?fbclid=IwAR2ecBcxHJcPGvRpuszLG7padR39d2MtCrV1yYa9WqmW4VdRESyBgMHKt5Y) Here are some molecules generated by artificial intelligence. Hope it can help to gain time and advance researchs for new drug discovery. 7,72778,2020-03-28T11:44:58.711Z,12966,1,11,10,1,0,0,42.2,70811,anon3197437925,anon3197437925,"One more update on this: the [pandemic prediction tool](https://bit.ly/2JgYCGo) by Gabor Vattay says that in European countries the situation during the first wave of the COVID-19 epidemic will not spin out of control completely, but new cases will be minimal basically everywhere within 3 weeks. (The U.S. is a different story – not enough data about that yet.) So for Europe, the scenario where self-medication with an experimental drug is the only remaining option because there are no respirators and ICU beds left … it won't happen. Means, I don't recommend to consider (hydroxy)chloroquine anymore for that purpose. I still think it can be proven useful in larger studies and will then be officially recommended as a treatment option – that will be later in the year, which will be early enough. Also to note, due to the possibility of serious side effects, (hydroxy)chloroquine should be taken only under medical supervision – esp. in the higher-than-usual doses that treatment for COVID-19 would require. But for now, the situation is enough under control to not require this improvisation anymore. Stay safe, everyone! :blush: (cc @anon294806887 )" 8,72780,2020-03-28T11:52:48.010Z,12966,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,72778,anon294806887,anon3197437925,"I am concerned about India's 'expert advice' and Trump's word dropping which could spiral into who knows what reckless behaviors.. https://theprint.in/health/indias-use-of-chloroquine-to-prevent-covid-19-based-on-data-from-chinese-studies/389067/" 9,72781,2020-03-28T12:12:03.779Z,12966,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,70811,anon4199479944,anon3197437925,[Tingbo LIANG - Handbook of COVID-19 Prevention.pdf|attachment](upload://wshrPdj2PeYZzWfyXwYkOyOATV7.pdf) (23.6 MB) this handbook could be very helpful :slight_smile: 10,73351,2020-04-02T10:11:41.275Z,12966,2,10,9,1,0,0,47.0,70811,anon3197437925,anon3197437925,"Some more updates on the chloroquine situation: here is a long-winded article that explores anon2696444391 the struggle around using chloroquine for COVID-19 is political, with a lot of ego and bickering. You get the impression that not exploring the potential of chloroquine as fast as possible is a massive political failure. Instead, we have to make do with the most ancient and most damaging epidemics control tool: lockdowns. It's certainly interesting to watch anon2696444391 this unfolds … http://jdanon75403560.blog.tdg.ch/archive/2020/03/24/covid-19-the-game-is-over-305275.html" 11,73355,2020-04-02T10:18:14.917Z,12966,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,73351,anon3828707713,anon3197437925,https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-making-sense-of-the-emergent-internet-from-contact-tracking-to-special-powers/13089 12,73705,2020-04-06T11:47:31.412Z,12966,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,73351,anon294806887,anon3197437925,"Jez. This. It's really incredible. Thanks for sharing it. > Raoult noted caustically that it was not impossible that the discovery of a new therapeutic utility for a drug that had fallen into the public domain long ago would be disappointing for all those hoping to win a Nobel Prize thanks to the breakthrough discovery of a new molecule or vaccine... Not to mention the prospect of tens of billions of dollars in revenue to be made, whereas chloroquine costs literally nothing." 13,73747,2020-04-06T13:48:20.924Z,12966,0,7,6,1,0,0,36.4,70811,anon3197437925,anon3197437925,"Made this topic a bit more general now, so that I can add my own collected knowledge about the coronavirus pandemic. Hope its useful to somebody: [COVID-19_Knowledge.v2020-04-06.html|attachment](upload://qBq78puTFoX0Zf6dmOP6WXVdmdx.html) (185.1 KB) (When you are offered the file for download, choose to open it in your browser. You can then fold and unfold the hierarchy of nodes by clicking the + and - butanon2863106368s. I added the same file also in the very first post above.)" 14,74959,2020-04-23T22:18:09.080Z,12966,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,70811,anon3197437925,anon3197437925,"To whom that might be interesting: I uploaded a new version of my note collection regarding COVID-19 (also updated in the first post above now). [COVID-19_Knowledge.v2020-04-23.mm.html|attachment](upload://u5dQc7DK3ao05re7XqQdo6ghyOy.html) (298.8 KB) From what I remember, relevant new material includes new and better letality estimates (0.4 - 0.6%); good estimates about true asymptotics (18% of cases); obscure and so-far unproven hunches about quercetin and luteolin as prophylactics (and where to get these as supplements); my analysis and calculations about the hypothesis that ~75% of people might have cross-immunity from seasonal coronaviruses; in which case a common cold from coronavirus could be administered as a vaccination; studies on infection risk per day of close contact (~2.5%); and more on drugs and treatments (""proning"" etc.) that you might have to tell your hospital or just practice when the need might come. Stay safe everyone :)" 1,64182,2019-11-15T11:27:14.243Z,11547,0,22,21,32,0,0,179.4,64182,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"*// DRAFT!! This wiki contains summaries of 10 depth interviews and conversations currently happening on the anon1577251828 community forum. It is intended to give a sense of who is “in the room” during our Workshop on Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them. After the workshop these will be turned into 150-300 word posts that we will be publishing in different formats, and channels to draw visibility and opportunities for collaboration towards everyone who is contributing to this conversation. We are adding new ones on a regular basis, if you wish to be included, talk to us during the workshop tomorrow! //*
### Overview of all 10 Stories: Generic audience Experts working at the cutting edge of tech, policy and human rights spaces call for greater consideration to be given to the way that AI is altering the very fabric of society. Both academics and policy makers agree that current AI systems risk amplifying existing human biases that entrench inequality - not least because of the widespread, and misguided, perception that data is inherently neutral. Systems for the reporting of sexual assault, for example, are encoded with developers’ assumptions about sexual violence which do not grasp the complexity of victims’ experiences. Those working and researching in the field caution that AI systems are only as unbiased as the humans who build them, and that continuing to give AI undue weight will cause serious harm to the most vulnerable in society. Across medicine, law, entrepreneurship and gender studies, concern is growing that the pressure to innovate for its own sake comes at great risk to privacy, protection and human rights. Experts caution that companies in both the public and private sectors are rushing to implement technology they don’t fully understand, and that it is crucial due care and consideration is taken when building these systems to ensure they are value-driven and accountable. Unchecked digitisation in the fields of medicine, social work and the reporting of sexual assault fails to recognise human needs which are more nuanced, individualised and unpredictable than AI can fathom. It is critical we ensure that AI is designed and used in such a way that it serves society’s needs -- not the other way around. #### Examples from each story * Marco: In predictive medicine, there are so many biological variables that scaling data up can decrease precision * Corinne: complex encryption systems built to protect an activist were found to be lacking when a police officer simply stole his phone from his hand. * Peter: .... * Seda: .... * Hugi: .... * Kate: .... * Justin: .... * Oliver: .... * Fabrizio: .... * Alberto: .... #### Social media updates for media-friendly summary articles Self-reinforcing loop of data puts human rights at risk Unchecked digital expansion could be a force for democratisation -- or further entrench inequality It is critical that AI serves people -- not the other way around. Discourse must move from technology to societal impact Perception of data as inherently neutral is dangerous to society Putting human rights at the forefront of digital expansion is critical One-size-fits all approach to AI in public services breeds division and intolerance Interoperability key to sustainable innovation Meaningful debate on AI must be prioritised above innovation.
### The rush to implement AI too widely and simplistically could have disastrous consequences #### A conversation with Marco Manca Marko Mana is an interdisciplinary researcher in mathematics and informational systems with an educational background in medicine. He founded the [SCimPulse Foundation](http://www.scimpulse.org/about-us/), which he still directs, and is also part of several scientific organisations and commissions, including the working group of NATO for human control over auanon2863106368omous systems. Marko feels there is a lot of excitement about AI and a push to accelerate its implementation widely - but that it is crucial we consider AI a “nifty tool” to use with awareness, rather than an impeccable “leader” that must not be questioned. AI systems are only as good as the data inputted and the questions asked of them by humans. This means that the conclusions returned are not free of human biases, but rather potentially amplify them. Essentially, as they are used now, AI systems simply return the same results as humans would, just “faster and dumber.” This is a concern because of the rush to implement AI, particularly in the field of medicine. In medicine there is an expectation of precision, but with so many biological variables, the more precise you get the more you diverge, so large scale information potentially becomes less valuable. For example, in the 1970s, various tools were introduced to help doctors predict the likelihood of certain diseases, but attempts to refine these profiles over the years have hit a barrier. Just as you could play a lottery with 1/1000 odds every day for a thousand days and still not win, there is a crucial difference between “the destiny of the person in front of you right now, the destiny of every similar person.” His argument is not that we should not be developing AI, but that we must consider anon2696444391 we develop and implement it and anon2696444391 we contextualize the information it gives us. If we simply scale up the information we work with now without being informed about the risks, we risk causing serious damage. **Participate in the conversation with Marco here:** [What does it take to build a successful movement for citizens to gain control over when, anon2696444391 and to what use automated systems are introduced and used in society?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-it-take-to-build-a-successful-movement-for-citizens-to-gain-control-over-when-anon2696444391-and-to-what-use-automated-systems-are-introduced-and-used-in-society/11075/2)
### AI is changing the fabric of society - it is crucial to ensure it serves people, not the other way around. #### A conversation with Seda F. Gürses With an undergrad degree in international relations and mathematics, Seda is now an academic at Delft University, focussing on anon2696444391 to do computer science differently - utilising a interdisciplinary approach to explore both concepts of privacy and surveillance, and also looking at what communities need. They were led into this field of study by their fascination with the politics of mathematics and the biases contained within seemingly neutral numbers. The technological landscape has changed enormously in the past few years — from static software saved on a disk that was only updated every once in a while, to software and apps that are held on services and so constantly updated and optimised. A whole new host of privacy and security issues have arisen, and thus the need for a computer science which secures and protects the needs of its users. The negative consequences of prioritising optimisation over user experience can be seen in Google Maps and Way, which sends users down service roads to avoid freeway traffic. They don’t care that this has an adverse impact on the environment and local communities, or even that it actually causes congestion in smaller roads. Further, Uber has optimised its system to outsource risk to its workers: instead of paying people for the time they work, Uber offers them a system that tells them when they are most likely to get customers so that they can manage their individual risk. When this kind of tech injustice is applied to public institutions such as borders and social welfare systems, the discrimination embedded in the very systems mean we are changing the fabric of society without having the necessary discussions as to whether that’s something we want to do. We need to stop talking about data and algorithms and focus on the forms of government we want these technologies to have. It is crucial that the computational infrastructure boosted by AI serves people, not the other way around. **Participate in the conversation with Seda here:** coming soon
### Tech is not the simple solution to complex social situations. #### A conversation with Peter Bihr Pbihir co-founded ThingsCon community which advocates for a responsible, human-centric approach to the Internet of Things. Smart Cities, where the digital and physical meet and where algorithms actively impact our daily lives, is an important focal point of his work. He proposes reframing the Smart City discourse (currently dominated by vendors of Smart City tech) away from the technology and more towards a focus on societal impact. What better urban metrics can we apply to cities increasingly governed or shaped by algorithms? Such an analytical framework would be the key to unlocking a real, meaningful debate. Smart City policies must be built around citizen/digital, human rights, and with emphasis on participatory processes, transparency and accountability. At the most recent ThingsCon conference, Manon den Dunnen shared her experience of unintended horrific consequences of tech going wrong when police officers take phone numbers of both victims and suspects, and then Facebook algorithms then suggest one another as friends. Further, several studies have sanon2696444391n policing and/or justice related algorithms were found to have racist data points (including some deemed illegal by courts yet remained in the data sets). And the policing algorithm in NYC measures effectiveness by such simplistic metrics that created incentive for officers to report selectively (for example, the systemic intimidation of rape victims to change their charge from rape to a more minor offence). **Participate in the conversation with Peter here:** [How can we put humans/citizens first in our smart city policies?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-we-put-humans-citizens-first-in-our-smart-city-policies/9878/40)
### Unchecked digital expansion could entrench existing biases and power inequality #### A conversation with Corinne Cath-Speth With a background in human rights and policy, Corinne Cath-Speth worked as a policy officer for a human rights NGO in London before coming to the Oxford Internet Institute and the Alan Turing Institute to pursue her PhD. Her research focuses on human rights advocacy efforts within Internet governance, with a broader interest of anon2696444391 human rights NGOs are responding to the new (and old) challenges raised by emerging technologies. In working with human rights activists, anon3708943593 saw that digital technologies - like social media - can give the plight of activists more visibility, but that often these same technologies entrench existing power inequalities and biases. She became interested in studying what happens when activists try to change the infrastructure of the internet itself, rather than simply use it. A number of well-known human rights organizations like the ACLU and EFF, actively do so by contributing to Internet governance fora. She found that these organizations are welcome and can operate in these spaces with relative ease, given their open and multistakeholder nature. At the same time, she also saw that while getting the tech “right” is an important part of the puzzle of human rights advocacy in the digital age, it is also a narrow frame through which to understand the broad spectrum of social concerns raised by networked technologies. anon3708943593’s work in Internet governance also led her to consider human rights advocacy in AI governance, as AI systems are raising a host of questions regarding privacy, safety, anti-discrimination and other human rights. One of the problems with developing AI advocacy programs is that many of these systems are developed by private companies, so it is difficult to gain access to their technology to examine and understand it. Many NGOs are therefore calling for the regulation of AI systems, but are facing pushback, with companies arguing that it hampers innovation. Yet, it is this same “innovation” that encourages many governments to deploy AI systems. A drive for “innovation” for innovation’s sake is particularly concerning when it encourages governments to step into technologies that they don’t fully understand or even need. Obviously, a lot of human rights NGOs have been worried about these various dynamics for a while and are consistently raising their concerns— sometimes by bringing in academic work to sanon2696444391 some of these issues. Human Rights Watch, for example, has a great program as does Amnesty International, Privacy International and Article 19. Several of the largest human rights NGOs are focusing on issues of AI systems and bias. But they’re also forced to play whack-a-mole as the application of AI systems becomes more common. How to focus your resources? Which companies and applications are most concerning? Which solutions most tractable and comprehensive? Do we need sectoral guidelines, or do we need guidelines which focus on impact? Do we need self-regulatory ethics frameworks or hard data protection frameworks? All of the above? These are the issues I see a lot of NGOs grapple with and are questions I hope to discuss with you on this platform. **Participate in the conversation with Corinne here:** [What does the future of civil society advocacy look like, given the prevalence of these digital technologies and their impact on the work that civil society is currently doing?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-the-future-of-civil-society-advocacy-look-like-given-the-prevalence-of-these-digital-technologies-and-their-impact-on-the-work-that-civil-society-is-currently-doing/11118/16)
### Self-reinforcing loop of data could put human rights at risk #### A conversation with Justin Nogarede Justin Nogarede works for the Foundation for European Progressive Studies, was previously at the European Commission focussing on competition law and European regulations. As a trainee in the application law unit at the European Commission, he became aware of the issues involved in ensuring member states comply with EU law, finding that often there isn’t the staff or resources available to enforce directives - for example, the directive on data protection has existed since 1995, but was not widely enforced. Justin now focuses more on data governance, and is finding that as new digital infrastructures are rolled out, they are driven by narrow efficiency concerns and are not accountable. Looking into these new infrastructures is a great opportunity to make the system more participatory and accountable - but we have to take it. Feeding existing data into AI systems can create problems - for example, when predictive policing has been sanon2696444391n to drive more officers into wealthy areas, as data sanon2696444391s a higher rate of arrests in those areas. Data therefore creates a self-reinforcing loop. Further, digital systems often rely on a binary logic, which healthcare and social problems simply don’t fit. The key problem is that data is a simplification of the real world. Further, some AI systems may support a conservative bias, such as when they are used to predict which offenders are most likely to reoffend. Regulation of digital infrastructure would be a step in the right direction, and the argument that it would stifle innovation is weak - technological advances must make sense and make lives better. It may not be possible to have 100% compliance, but more involvement of public authorities (even at local level) would be a good step, as would more transparency over anon2696444391 these technologies function. Why is all this innovation not channelled into ways for people to live a better life? **Participate in the conversation with Justin here:** [Why is all this innovation not being channeled into ways for people to help them live a better life?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/why-is-all-this-innovation-not-being-channeled-into-ways-for-people-to-help-them-live-a-better-life/11443/3)
### Distributed systems promise great possibilities - and challenges. ##### A conversation with Hugi Asgeirsson Earlier this year, Hugi was in Berlin for the Data Terra Nemo conference, focussing on decentralised web applications which are hosted without traditional servers, allowing for a lot of interesting applications. They were inspired by the human-centric community that has grown up around ‘gossip’ protocols like Scuttlebutt. It seems to be forming a playground where new and radical ideas can be tested and implemented. The original developer of Scuttlebutt, Dominic Tarr, describes his MO as: “not to build the next big thing, but rather to build the thing that inspires the next big thing, that way you don’t have to maintain it” and this seems to have set the anon2863106368e for Scuttlebutt itself. One of the core elements of Scuttlebutt is that users can host data for other people on the network without being directly connected to them. This has the positive effect that users in countries where internet usage is highly restricted can connect via other users - though on the other hand, this also means that users could unwittingly be hosting information they would rather not propagate. There have been instances of the Norwegian alt-right using Scuttlebutt to communicate. Scuttlebutt has been working to address this issue but solutions are imperfect so far. The bottom line is that distributed systems such as Scuttlebutt are both democratising and empowering and they come with a whole new set of possibilities and challenges. **Participate in the conversation with Hugi here:** [Data Terra Nemo: First report & Scuttlebutt](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/data-terra-nemo-first-report-scuttlebutt/9928/4)
### Open-source technology and interoperability are key to sustainable innovation #### A conversation with Oliver Sauter There is an accepted “law” of entrepreneurship: in order to build something valuable, you have to be ten times better than what already exists (as proven by Google + which arguably had better some better features than Facebook but failed to tempt people away). Why does this law exist and what can we do to change it? BlackforestBoi believes it comes down to: Costs to switch (time and mental effort) > additional benefit offered *~10. Such growth requirement has produced some great leaps in innovation - but these come with downsides. How would the world look if we focused more on incremental innovations? What is holding us back? The way companies make money for one: the 2nd quarter of 2018, Facebook lost $120bn (billion!) in stock value within 48 hours, the biggest loss of any company in history. The reason: It posted the least growth since its founding, while still making 5BN in profits the same quarter and growing by 42% since the last year. Secondly data and social lock ins creates counter incentives for interoperable formats which would make it easier for users to migrate between services or integrate them, Breaking this dynamic would require tackling the problem from multiple angles: namely allowing users to move freely between services, creating economic models that reward quality of service rather than simple growth, and ideally adopting Open-Source software to allow companies to build on one another’s work. WorldBrain (dot) io is building open-source software in an attempt to enable incremental innovation, the foundation of which is Memex - an open-source privacy tool. Interoperability is baked deep into the core of Memex, it is fully open-source and WorldBrain (dot) io has no stock value, so is entirely focussed on building a sustainable service. **Participate in the conversation with Oliver here:** [Startups’ grand illusion: You have to be 10x better than whats there](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/startups-grand-illusion-you-have-to-be-10x-better-than-whats-there/10221/14)

### Civic organisations are key to turning AI technology into a force for civil justice ##### Fabrizio Barca With a varied background in banking and treasury and more recently inequalities and justice, Fabrizio previously worked at the EU and now with a civic organisation called the Forum for Inequality and Diversity. The current crisis in Western countries is driven by inequality - in particular the paradox that we have the technology to create equality but instead it is producing an unprecedented concentration of knowledge and power in very few hands. This must be addressed by putting political pressure on the issues. State-owned enterprises and collective platforms where people can put together data that everyone has access to could turn these technologies into forces for social justice. A one-size-fits all approach to AI in public administration grows resentment. It deprives people of the most important thing - human connection and a sense of being recognised - which breeds intolerance, division and a loss of trust in democracy. Fabrizio is just coming to understand anon2696444391 effective civic organisations can be, not just in advocacy work but in taking action to shape services in local areas. He hopes to gain even more understanding through discussing the topics with a mix of people from different backgrounds. **Learn More :** [Conversation with Fabrizio Barca Founder, Forum on Inequalities and diversity I Ex General Director, Italian Ministry of Economy & Finance](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-conversation-with-fabrizio-barca-founder-forum-on-inequalities-and-diversity-i-ex-general-director-italian-ministry-of-economy-finance/11545/2)
#### Kate J Sim A PhD researcher at Oxford Internet Institute, anon2594087572 studies the intersection of gender-based violence and emerging technologies. Her work focuses on issues of trust, gender and sexual politics, and the double-edged role of technology in facilitating connections but also targeted harassment. While organising against campus violence she personally experienced cyberharassment and lack of support from law enforcement. More resources have become available since then, but we need to change anon2696444391 we conceptualise these issues and fundamentally change the design of the platforms. She helped to form a cross-campus network that grew to a nonprofit organisation, Know Your IX. The space requires better structures in place to support mental health and protection from cyberharassment to reduce burnout. Research sanon2696444391s again and again that women, especially women of colour, tend to self-censor and reduce their visibility in order to survive - it is crucial we put more safeguarding in place to protect them. Digital systems designed to facilitate disclosures, collect evidence and automate reporting of sexual assault are attractive to institutions because of their efficiency - and to some extent to victims as they are perceived to be objective and neutral. However, these systems have bias encoded in them. The designers are working with their own understanding of sexual violence, which may not match victims’ experiences. Some victims don’t have the data literacy or English level to work the systems, which could compound their trauma. Further, the pressure to report is encoded into the design of these systems, but this is a misguided emphasis on a single optimal solution, which is not appropriate for all victims. De-emphasising reporting and focussing on “small data” driven by relationship building can create a structured conversation which is rich, insightful and telling. Rather than asking anon2696444391 tech can be fixed for the better, the more urgent and important question is: who and what are we overlooking when we turn to tech solutions? How can we support practitioners in anti-violence space, like social workers, jurors and judges, and advocates, with data and tech literacy, so that they have control over anon2696444391 they interpret and act on data? **Participate in the conversation with Kate here:** [Can tech design for survivors? How sex, violence, and power are encoded into the design and implementation of data/AI-driven sexual misconduct reporting systems](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/can-tech-design-for-survivors-anon2696444391-sex-violence-and-power-are-encoded-into-the-design-and-implementation-of-data-ai-driven-sexual-misconduct-reporting-systems/11193/6)
### Focus on scalar indicators is driven by need to describe reality, not change it #### Alberto Cottica Alberto had been hoping that ehnography-at-scale via SSNA could integrate, if not replace, the indicator paradigm, but after trying to get people to assess their own willingness to pay for, say, avoiding the extinction of some type of frog in Madagascar, or lowering the PM10 content by 10%, he found convincing evidence that we could never trust our results He refers to James Scott’s convincing argument for scalar indicators being propelled by the modernist ideology that underpin the coalescing of modern states. This works for states but not so much for people. Modern states have created a demand for scalar indicators, but this has more to do with their thirst for administrative order than with a drive to understand what is really going on. **Participate in the conversation with Alberto here:** [On assessing impact, and what Edgeryders could do in that department](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/on-assessing-impact-and-what-anon1577251828-could-do-in-that-department/10708)" 2,64192,2019-11-15T11:45:35.718Z,11547,1,13,12,0,0,0,7.6,64182,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,@anon1753543892 the idea here is not to ping people who already have contributed alot of time. This is for the outreach team to draw people in to the content already there... 3,64196,2019-11-15T11:50:11.420Z,11547,2,13,12,0,0,0,12.6,64192,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"Understood. If you are referring to the discussion about posting parts of the longer interviews, I am fully aware that that are fully different goals. This is outreach. The other one is for potentially making engagement on the platform easier :)" 4,64197,2019-11-15T11:51:33.552Z,11547,0,12,11,0,0,0,2.4,64196,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,Let's put it this way. We have a social contract not to take up too much of people's time. let me handle this if you don't mind? 5,64277,2019-11-15T17:04:17.869Z,11547,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,64196,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"@anon2945747231 can I ask you to create a series of separate posts with one summary from the list above copy-pasted into it, in each one pinging the person who is featured in that post?" 6,74806,2020-04-22T05:43:17.592Z,11547,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,64277,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"morning @anon2945747231 did you ever get around to doing :point_up_2: btw ? Not a big deal if not, jut want to avoid duplicating work" 7,74824,2020-04-22T09:07:09.594Z,11547,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,74806,anon2945747231,anon3828707713,"Yeah, I did: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/paul-event-notes/12011 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/seda-event-notes-fishbowl-2/12010 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/liliana-event-notes/12009 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon659222949-event-notes/12008 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/kate-event-notes/12007 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/fabrizio-event-notes/12006 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/rob-event-notes/12005 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/seda-event-notes/12004 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/marco-event-notes/12003 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon3379761435-event-notes/12002" 1,74525,2020-04-17T10:44:20.554Z,13248,5,23,22,6,0,0,134.6,74525,anon2559300400,anon2559300400,"I'm posting our (@anon2559300400 @anon3708943593 @anon4046128282) Methods Reflections below: *Ethnography Team: Reflection on a Surveillance Pandemic* **Section 1. Setting up the event in future** 1. Identify a topic for the event based upon the ethnographic analysis done so far. Ask: what topics are the community most interested in? Which would be most useful/generative to do a deep dive into? 2. Have at least a month to plan the call, invite a diverse range of participants (including the most active community members on platform on this topic), and put informed consent procedures in place. 3. Use the SSNA/codes/ethnography to pull out questions to ask participants during the call. (Research team can be present and ask questions as well as moderators). 4. Record the call and transcribe the recording. 5. Post the transcription and code the transcription. 6. Generate an SSNA based upon it (we need to brainstorm ways to have the Social part of the SSNA visualised in this, but at worst it’s a visualisation of the main themes of the conversation. At best, we separate each contribution into a different comment to see what concepts most frequently co-occur together). **Section 2: Ethical consent funnel and procedures** Create an information sheet to put on the event page that is very easy to locate and is in clear, human language. This should also be present before the Zoom link is reachable/above the Zoom link. This needs to be done at least a week before the event, but preferably as soon as possible. This information sheet needs to contain at a minimum the following: 1. Description of Research Project (what the data will be used for). 2. Description of Event - duration, type of event, what they can expect to encounter. 3. That the event is being recorded. 4. How the event data will be made public, processed, and stored, and for anon2696444391 long (include the possibility that the call will be transcribed and posted). 5. That they have the right and ability to withdraw at any point (up until the publication of final research results, give date). 6. Who they can contact if they want any of their contributions removed/want to withdraw. 7. Potential risks and benefits of participation (in this section, we must list that we cannot guarantee them anonymity or data privacy, in part because we are using an insecure video client) 8. What body is overseeing the research: if ERC/H2020, for example, then mention that an ethics committee with ethics advisors is overseeing the project, and give their contact information. 9. That they also agree to abide by these rules in terms of data protection and circulation -- they are not permitted to make information public beyond what the research project allows in point 4. Get participants to digitally sign an informed consent form with the above information at some point before they enter the call. * My thoughts on best practice for this: create an online consent form through something like Qualtrics or Google Forms (not sure about the security of the latter, would have to look into it-- or generate own internal form if we use the ER platform to video call). When the user submits the form, they are given the link to the video call and can enter. That way you know no one in the call has not gone through the consent funnel. * Example of an info sheet/consent form currently being used: https://www.smarten.org.uk/covid-19-study.html * Noemi’s “Meeting Registration” page would indeed work, but only if the I’m not a robot box was changed to a “I consent” box. * At the beginning of the call, remind people that the call is being recorded and of the information on the information sheet (particularly on their ability to withdraw/opt-out). * Inform all participants when the data is posted on the platform. Underneath/on the same post as the recording, give contact information for who to contact if they want to change their consent status and reiterate that they can do so. * Host the call on a secure platform so we can assure participants of a higher degree of data privacy/lower risk of data breach. We also need to be clear about what the participants are allowed to use the data for. It was clear that there were a few journalists on the call looking for a scoop/for information to publish. We need to be clear that part of the agreement is that you as a participant can’t go off and write using any kind of identifiable data. **Section 3: Content and demographics:** A. Content is shaped by WHO is participating: notes on participant demographics and its implications for content 1. Networks and recruiting participants: The virtual meeting consisted of 36 participants including experts within the legal, medical and public health, digital tech, privacy and human rights, public policy and media communities. Participants in the call were invited through existing social and professional networks, i.e. were largely existing contacts of the Edgeryders team, primarily Alberto (friends-of-friends approach). Thus, many were based in Italy, some in the UK, Sweden, Belgium and France. Expanding and diversifying our recruitment for future events will allow us to hear from a broader range of experts, researchers and practitioners. We should brainstorm ways to do this effectively, perhaps with @anon294806887 and @anon3828707713 (and others experienced in outreach and engagement). 2. Encouraging Participation: That being said, a full demographic overview is limited by the small number of introductions given by the participants. We should think of ways to give speakers the opportunity to introduce themselves (if they would like to/are able to) – in a manner that is comfortable to them. The chat was one useful way of doing this, but it’s not clear that chat introductions lead to more engagement between people of similar interests, since they came quickly and densely at the beginning. In virtual events lately, @anon2559300400 has been doing a virtual version of the 15 minutes for coffee built in to schedules before conferences formally commence. One way of getting people more comfortable and chatting might be to schedule 15 minutes before the call as a “coffee and chat” period, a soft entry. This happened point to a certain extent, and could be further encouraged by making it an actual thing on the schedule. This kind of space for introductions (or thinking of other ways to do intros) may also encourage participants to become acquainted with one another before the discussion begins, and might foster more interaction across a larger number of participants during the call. Of the 36 participants, we find a small handful of experts on call participating more than once/speaking more than once. The conversation was largely driven by 4-5 main voices + mediated by community managers. The same goes for the conversation in the thread following Alberto’s report on the meeting. How do we maximize participation and encourage participants in calls to engage on the platform after the call? Also a topic we can brainstorm together. 3. Making Discussions more Representative: The following report is based on the exchange between a small number of speakers (in the discussion and chat), and though there are some salient themes, this may not be representative of the concerns/ideas of the broader community. To that end, the participants (or at least those who were the most active) represented ca 3-4 European countries (incl. the UK). How do we include a broader range of people in these discussions? In terms of empirical examples, we mainly focussed our discussion on the UK and Italy, two of the hardest-hit countries currently affected by the virus. We need to bring in cases from countries with different experiences/ cases where it's ‘going well’: e.g. Germany, Finland, the Czech Republic etc. This could be helped in our next call by pulling out questions we want to ask beforehand based on the ethnography done so far. We can set an agenda for the kinds of questions we want to ask -- pushing people beyond a few geographical cases, for example. This will also help moderation questions be more directed. **Salient Themes and Finding Common Ground** As Alberto reported, core themes included the following (below). We focus here on themes which involved the most dynamic participant interaction (speakers referenced each other, voiced agreement/disagreement, mentioned repeatedly/stressed, asked directed questions to each other): 1. Immunity certificates/passports are ineffective and risky, particularly as we do not know anon2696444391 immunity works in the context of this novel coronavirus. 2. Contact tracing via Apps and other technologies represent a trade-off approach in which civil liberties may be sacrificed in the interest of fighting the virus. The risks here are three-fold: i. Data and privacy: we don’t have a clear privacy-friendly solution for the development of these technologies; it is also unclear where the data will be sourced from and anon2696444391 this will be regulated. ii. Unequal distribution of risk: there may be a disproportionate targeting of vulnerable communities, iii. Absence of the counterfactual: these apps may be a way of letting governments lift lockdowns (presumably over economic concerns), anon2696444391ever, the effectiveness of allowing ‘normal life’ to resume is – as yet – untested: we are developing strategies without counterfactual knowledge to work with Underlying these concerns is the question of necessity: why are these kinds of decisions being made? Why is there a push to develop track and trace technologies, especially if we lack evidence to support their effectiveness? Participants conclude that no, contact tracing is not the answer to fighting the pandemic currently , but that they may allow us to prepare for the next pandemic or future waves of the current one. 3. Coordination and Cooperation across governments and communities is more pressing than developing new technologies. However, the fear expressed by participants is that the pandemic has offered governments a pass to rapidly develop and implement surveillance technologies under the guise of public security and virus containment. It is agreed that we need to maximize access to participation in these efforts (e.g. through slow media approach, collaborative and constructive journalism platforms, information sharing, collaborating with researchers and experts and contact-sharing, as well as crowdsourcing existing data, tapping into open data sources. In this sense, focus should be placed on improving existing infrastructures, cooperating across governments and harnessing the potential of local communities. **Meta Themes:** * **Feasibility** (in terms of resources, time management, coordination, monitoring): Do we have the capacity to process new evidence, the capacity to react quickly and to use the resources and legal systems available to develop policy? * Ensuring **Security** (on multiple levels): anon2696444391 do we avoid data being misused? How do we strike a balance between ensuring data privacy, anonymity and data security with containing the spread of the virus in a way that does not force a trade-off? How do we protect vulnerable communities? How does the rush to develop new technologies put medical professionals, their patients and communities at large at risk? * **Transparency**: Decisions we make about anon2696444391 to combat this pandemic need to be justifiable and their effectiveness and necessity need to be clearly definable. * **Access**: to information/reporting * **Uncertainty**: the absence of counterfactual examples/data makes it easy to speculate, but also makes any decisions we make riskier. * **Temporality**: Discussions in the call highlight an apparent clash of temporalities: what needs to be done in the HERE AND NOW to contain the spread of the virus? VS.. What can we do to (a) prevent future pandemics and (b) be better prepared for them? These two aspects need to be untangled as they are currently being conflated. Furthermore, anon2696444391 and what can we learn from past pandemics, and what can this tell us about anon2696444391 we ought to approach the current as well as future pandemics? **Section 4: Moderation** We agree with Maria that we needed more moderators, at least one for voice and one for chat. We’ve provided some suggestions above in terms of question preparation. Main summary here: ask directed questions when needed, but don’t be afraid to let silence take over for 5 seconds. One of the things we are taught in ethnographic interviewing is that silence feels way longer to interviewers than interviewees. It allows people to collect their thoughts and think more deeply about the topic at hand. Changing the topic too quickly and artificially can lead you away from those deeper and connected insights. Make sure any directed questions build upon the topic currently being discussed. We’ll have to brainstorm a way to link up chat questions to voice questions so as not to move too abruptly. We can also discuss the possibility of letting the chat unfold as it unfolds, naturally, as people may be more comfortable talking in chat form than speaking. As a result, be really careful with the direct callouts to individuals -- it puts people who might not want to talk on the spot. Perhaps it would be best to only ask chat questions aloud if they are direct questions on the topic that is being discussed in voice -- clarification questions, follow-up questions, etc. One of the great benefits of digital calls is that those who would not be comfortable speaking up in an in-person event might feel comfortable sharing their views textually -- we have to be sure to leave room for this. In the same vein, ‘lurking’ isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It may lead to people posting on-platform later, if we create the right channels. Moderation preparation: 1. The host(s) develop a set of questions to ask based on the ethnographic data analysis outlined in section 1.1 and solicits input into those questions from the edgeryder team as well as on platform. 2. In the call, these questions provide a guideline for the conversation but need not strictly be adhered to if the conversation veers from the topics identified (the whole point of this exercise to make room for unexpected insights to surface). 3. Consider moderation best-practices and netiquette, and communicate these to participants beforehand. See for instance this recent ACM resource. 4. Establish moderation netiquette with participants: 5. Mute when you are not speaking. 6. State your name often, especially when the call is without video. 7. Do not interrupt. 8. Have a good system in place for queuing questions or comments (via chat or by “raise hand-function depending on the software). 9. Repeat research purpose of the call often. 10. Mention and enforce the Code of Conduct. Moderation execution: * Most calls will need at least two moderators, one leading the VOIP conversation and one monitoring the chat. * The chat moderator is responsible for documentation and information, i.e. asking people to mute, repeat their names (preferably by private DM), ensuring questions in the chat are relayed and capturing the chat after the call finishes. * Both moderators are responsible for dynamically keeping the conversation going, this means coaxing the conversation forward and allowing for silence when needed. Key here is ensuring the speakers have the space to speak and build on each other. * Moderation follow-up: * Send short “satisfaction” survey including questions like: * Did this conversation meet your expectations: Y/N + elaborate * Did you think the discussion was relevant to your life/work: Y/N + elaborate * Were there topics that were not discussed that you had expected to hear about * Follow conversation on the post about the event" 2,74533,2020-04-17T12:36:00.785Z,13248,0,14,13,1,1,0,7.8,74525,anon1753543892,anon2559300400,"[quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13248""] One of the things we are taught in ethnographic interviewing is that silence feels way longer to interviewers than interviewees. It allows people to collect their thoughts and think more deeply about the topic at hand. Changing the topic too quickly and artificially can lead you away from those deeper and connected insights. Make sure any directed questions build upon the topic currently being discussed. [/quote] I agree with that notion for interviews, that problem is that a call with many participants is also to a degree a presentation or performance and the silence sounds long for those listening. So we need to balance that carefully." 3,74534,2020-04-17T12:37:10.970Z,13248,0,15,14,1,1,0,8.0,74525,anon1753543892,anon2559300400,"[quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13248""] As a result, be really careful with the direct callouts to individuals – it puts people who might not want to talk on the spot. [/quote] I asked most people via private message if they would like to speak before raising them up" 4,74559,2020-04-18T11:11:39.955Z,13248,1,15,14,1,1,0,43.0,74525,anon3379761435,anon2559300400,"[quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13248""] or generate own internal form if we use the ER platform to video call). [/quote] We accidentally discovered another feature of the emergent SenseStack: if we do the call on now.anon1577251828.eu, people access through their Edgeryders account. Then, it becomes easy to put through the consent funnel *only* the people who have not yet posted on the platform, and who have therefore not been through the funnel yet. Those who have posted before can simply be taken to the call's room. Elegant! This is evolving more and more into a @anon659222949 But of course then we would need a recording function to work in now. Other advantage: in data protection and data safety terms, the audio file would now live on our server, anon3983078393ed in the same conditions as the database of the main Discourse platform. [quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13248""] In virtual events lately, @anon2559300400 has been doing a virtual version of the 15 minutes for coffee built in to schedules before conferences formally commence. [/quote] This is a good point. So far, I have taken the opposite path, and tended to start ""on the dot"" to signal respect for people's time constraints etc. What do people think about it? @anon3197437925? @anon1753543892? @anon3828707713? [quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13248""] Participants conclude that no, contact tracing is not the answer to fighting the pandemic currently , but that they may allow us to prepare for the next pandemic or future waves of the current one. [/quote] An important word is missing from the above. I would reformulate: a contact tracing **app** is not the answer to fighting the pandemic currently, etc. (see [here](/t/13183/19)). [quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13248""] One of the things we are taught in ethnographic interviewing is that silence feels way longer to interviewers than interviewees [/quote] How interesting! I had no idea. [quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13248""] Establish moderation netiquette with participants: [/quote] I would add ""use headsets, or at least headphones. And be in a quiet room"" :slight_smile: [quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13248""] * Send short “satisfaction” survey including questions like: * Did this conversation meet your expectations: Y/N + elaborate [/quote] I like this idea a lot, though I expect low response rate." 5,74560,2020-04-18T11:13:55.736Z,13248,0,8,7,0,0,0,1.6,74525,anon3379761435,anon2559300400,@anon2559300400 any objections to this being on the public space? I do not see anything confidential. 6,74562,2020-04-18T12:28:46.729Z,13248,2,12,11,1,1,0,62.4,74559,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13248""]In virtual events lately, @anon2559300400 has been doing a virtual version of the 15 minutes for coffee built in to schedules before conferences formally commence.[/quote] That's no contradiction with Alberto's point of starting sharp to not waste people's time. We can just set the appointment to start sharp (like 18:15) and give that time to everyone, but also mention in the description that people can join from 18:00 to have a virtual coffee chat, test their audio setup and so on." 7,74566,2020-04-18T12:56:12.023Z,13248,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,74560,anon2559300400,anon3379761435,Nope! 8,74567,2020-04-18T12:58:04.172Z,13248,0,12,11,1,1,0,22.4,74562,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:6, topic:13248""] We can just set the appointment to start sharp (like 18:15) and give that time to everyone, but also mention in the description that people can join from 18:00 to have a virtual coffee chat, test their audio setup and so on. [/quote] That's what we did this time around: [quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13089""] **[Click here to join the meeting ](https://zoom.us/j/566856233) starting 16.45 on Thursday April 9th.** [/quote]" 9,74575,2020-04-18T15:52:52.542Z,13248,0,11,10,1,1,0,37.2,74562,anon1753543892,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:6, topic:13248""] That’s no contradiction with Alberto’s point of starting sharp to not waste people’s time. We can just set the appointment to start sharp (like 18:15) and give that time to everyone, but also mention in the description that people can join from 18:00 to have a virtual coffee chat, test their audio setup and so on. [/quote] ### could use c.t. and s.t. These abbreviations are found at universities after times: * 10:00 s.t. means that the event will begin at exactly 10:00. * 10:00 c.t. means that the event will begin 15 minutes later, that is, at 10:15. **s.t.** - Latin “sine tempore” = “without time” **c.t.** - Latin “cum tempore” = “with time” This is also referred to as the “Akademisches Viertel” (academic quarter-hour)." 10,74617,2020-04-20T07:18:37.330Z,13248,2,10,9,1,1,0,62.0,74525,anon294806887,anon2559300400,"[quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13248""] Of the 36 participants, we find a small handful of experts on call participating more than once/speaking more than once. The conversation was largely driven by 4-5 main voices + mediated by community managers. The same goes for the conversation in the thread following Alberto’s report on the meeting. How do we maximize participation and encourage participants in calls to engage on the platform after the call? [/quote] There's only so much you can do in 2 hrs in a virtual room with many people who don't know each other. Have you considered a series of calls- 2-3? If you limit the participation per call to 12 people or so, you can have more calls with more in depth treatment of the topic. Also, can't you do more focused one-on-one interviews after the calls, with selected participants? [quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13248""] How do we maximize participation and encourage participants in calls to engage on the platform after the call? Also a topic we can brainstorm together. [/quote] If you think of online events as community events in general at Edgeryders, that means they would need similar amounts of preparations, what we call sustained engagement. We know with @anon3828707713 that a full engagement campaign takes months. Examples of sustained conversations across different events: 1) OpenCare workshops - each had a dedicated team with targeted engagement in a 2-3 months runup. 2) The Reef-series of 3 workshops allowed for people to register over 2 months for basically what was one single topic. 3) Coping with loss of work online series - now low key and has very anon2488317424 outreach done atm and still, the in-between online conversations can help fill in dots with socialization and followup to each call. Imagine what could happen with more communication support, more curation etc. Otherwise, girls: thanks for a very high quality reflection <3 @anon" 11,74627,2020-04-20T08:11:10.855Z,13248,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,74617,anon2559300400,anon294806887,"Totally agree, @anon294806887. One of the things we were hoping to talk about was this time frame balance — we also tend to like months of advanced planning before events like this, to get the things we discuss above (diverse participants, depth of analysis). But at the same time, we of course understand the need/see the value in being able to do more of these events with less lead time. So we can work together to find what’s optimal/makes sense. The event was great and I think we can definitely build on it for future — even if we don’t get engagement on platform after, for example, the event itself was rich in material." 12,74628,2020-04-20T08:12:37.490Z,13248,1,8,7,1,1,0,26.6,74617,anon2559300400,anon294806887,"[quote=""anon294806887, post:10, topic:13248""] Also, can’t you do more focused one-on-one interviews after the calls, with selected participants [/quote] I’m still not sure anon2696444391 effective one on one interviews are for the SSNA model, because they often don’t generate on-platform interaction. But in terms of deepening our own understanding, they’re of course great." 13,74629,2020-04-20T08:16:46.859Z,13248,2,9,8,1,0,0,16.8,74628,anon294806887,anon2559300400,"Hm, I thought the interviews could be posted on the platform - like anon2696444391 it happened with the NGI Fellows last year." 14,74630,2020-04-20T08:56:52.712Z,13248,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,74629,anon2559300400,anon294806887,"Yes, definitely. I still have the same concerns re interaction, but I think that could be workshopped for sure." 15,74670,2020-04-20T20:37:58.381Z,13248,1,8,7,1,0,0,41.6,74525,anon3203746736,anon2559300400,">We’ll have to brainstorm a way to link up chat questions to voice questions so as not to move too abruptly. We can also discuss the possibility of letting the chat unfold as it unfolds, naturally, as people may be more comfortable talking in chat form than speaking. As a result, be really careful with the direct callouts to individuals – it puts people who might not want to talk on the spot. Perhaps it would be best to only ask chat questions aloud if they are direct questions on the topic that is being discussed in voice – clarification questions, follow-up questions, etc. One of the great benefits of digital calls is that those who would not be comfortable speaking up in an in-person event might feel comfortable sharing their views textually – we have to be sure to leave room for this. I would try to keep the voice conversation as one-pointed and moving naturally from topic to topic as I could while letting the chat be more free form. Chats always take on a life of their own anyway, and each person views it sort of differently. For some it is a way of saying something they regard as a more minor point. For others the way to introduce a link. For others a way to bring tangents into the picture without derailing the vocal conversation. And for still others a way to comment on anon2696444391 the voice action is going or to point out info about muting and audio quality. So I would accept that it's going to be more diffuse. Some will talk and some will only use the chat. I didn't talk voice in the conversation because I thought it more important to hear the others. But I did make a couple of small points in the chat. I think it is advisable to remind people to look at the chat even if they are otherwise 90% focused on the talk, because the moderator can send a private message without interrupting. But otherwise, the chat is optional - not the main event." 16,74719,2020-04-21T11:39:20.834Z,13248,0,7,6,1,1,0,6.4,74629,anon1753543892,anon294806887,"[quote=""anon294806887, post:13, topic:13248, full:true""] Hm, I thought the interviews could be posted on the platform - like anon2696444391 it happened with the NGI Fellows last year. [/quote] Maybe, we could try to personally invite and ask those participants to write a short post about their point, saying that we want to discuss their view further. let's try" 17,74721,2020-04-21T11:41:04.909Z,13248,1,7,6,1,0,0,26.4,74670,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,"Yes, therefore I think it is best to have the conversations host focussing on making that flow and the chat host reaching out to the convo host if it seems important to include new points/questions/people from the chat." 18,74778,2020-04-21T16:06:46.449Z,13248,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,74721,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,Yes I think that is a good approach. 1,74523,2020-04-17T09:57:36.921Z,13247,1,20,19,37,0,0,254.0,74523,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"**Hello here and overview of some of our ongoing conversations now as of mid-April 2020 one month into the Corona Crisis distancing/lockdown measure in most countries.** There are many very interesting threads and conversations going on on the platform right now and we want to stress again that everything we develop here together will not be forgotten but inform comprehensive research reports and future crisis responses. We are also very happy to have reconnected to many ""old friends"" who's previous projects and current work is very relevant to the current situation! *One of our main goals is to help to coordinate and realise initiatives and to enable people to not only have a job but ""do the good work"" and sustain themselves during this pandemic.* **Therefore we are now launching our Edgeryders hiring directory. Learn more and join here:** https://anon1577251828.eu/t/now-hiring-communication-and-design-team/13229 *We also discuss the economical and emotional effects of **""work in times of corona""** here:* https://anon1577251828.eu/t/work-in-the-time-of-corona-virus/12850 *And provide weekly calls to coordinate and connect people and projects, for example, every Monday 17:00 CEST or where people can join to discuss anon2696444391 they are coping with the loss of work on Tuesdays 12:00 pm CEST.* **See more about theses and more calls and event planned in this overview:** https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-calls-overview-all-over-anon1577251828/13146 *We also do topical prepared webinars and courses with experts which are also announced in the overview above. Check out the immensely interesting analysis on the community ""listening"" post about the **""Surveillance Pandemic""** call with more the 35 experts, journalists and community members here:* https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-results-of-the-community-listening-post-on-risks-for-freedom-in-the-wake-of-covid-19/13183 *We are working on developing a c**ourse for educators, parents and children to learn to us VR together with analogue drawing** to be creative and express their ideas (probably by mid-May) here:* https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-can-we-do-together-drawing-on-some-virtual-reality-dreams/13178 *And finally, currently, it is also very valuable to look back to learn about what is happening now and what could come. This is done beautifully in this post about **the reemergence of the communitarian roots of the internet** during the current crisis by early internet pioneers Howard Rheingold and power own @anon3203746736:* https://anon1577251828.eu/t/is-the-communitarian-internet-back-in-the-wake-of-covid-19-a-conversation-with-anon2696444391ard-rheingold/12971/2 **Have fun checking out some of theses posts and many more.** *Thank you to everyone contributing to these and the other ongoing discussions on the platform, raising initiatives, sharing ideas and opportunities as well as stories and feelings and generally trying to help each other through this crisis!* ## You are a great community!" 2,74524,2020-04-17T10:07:29.274Z,13247,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,74523,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 3,74615,2020-04-20T06:48:24.789Z,13247,0,12,11,1,1,0,22.4,74523,anon294806887,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:1, topic:13247""] We are also very happy to have reconnected to many “old friends” who’s previous projects and current work is very relevant to the current situation! [/quote] I am particularly happy about this, in these times having meaningful conversations with people you know and can trust is heartwarming." 4,74710,2020-04-21T10:03:04.974Z,13247,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,74523,anon3828707713,anon1753543892," link to the call here: [bit.ly/coronawork](https://t.co/YNv2gFLnwP?amp=1) ![Copy%20of%20anon2696444391%20are%20you%20coping%20with%20loss%20of%20work_%20(5)|487x690](upload://o0lOR8Hjh8286pn792SjvtWKmD1.png)" 5,75040,2020-04-25T08:51:37.156Z,13247,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,74523,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 6,75041,2020-04-25T08:52:29.422Z,13247,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,74523,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 7,75048,2020-04-25T09:02:51.311Z,13247,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,74523,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 8,75049,2020-04-25T09:03:10.214Z,13247,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,74523,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 1,74642,2020-04-20T12:23:51.906Z,13262,2,20,19,104,0,0,639.0,74642,anon2559300400,anon2559300400," Recent events (including the great [Surveillance Pandemic discussion](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-results-of-the-community-listening-post-on-risks-for-freedom-in-the-wake-of-covid-19/13183) we had recently) and reflections from @anon3828707713 and @anon3197437925 have made me give some thought to what our role is in enabling our community members to get through COVID-19 in the context of our NGI work. I have been turning over the concept of contact tracing, which the EC seems so keen on (and the efficacy of which our expert interlocutors questioned deeply). I think that 'contact tracing', removed from its other context, actually describes our SSNA work very well. A better kind of contact tracing -- where we trace anon2696444391 community members are helping each other already, and what they need to do that; and a tracing that enables more contact, not less, as we connect people together who we see are working on the same or compatible issues. The platform is already so much more alive with meaningful stories of these kinds of contact. The ethnography team is creating a new ""COVID Codebook"" and think we should create an SSNA mapping these ""COVID codes"" to sanon2696444391 anon2696444391 people are innovating and dealing with the crisis. In a way, this could pave the way for SSNA as a crisis management tool --- like in Open Care, mapping what communities are already doing and where they need help and support most. This builds on the Open Care finding, especially relevant given what is going on with the EC's divesting of funds to an app, that NGOs and governments are constantly putting money and resources in the wrong place. We already have concrete evidence of that from the surveillance pandemic and we have only just started this phase of community listening in the time of COVID. I am sure that @anon3379761435, @anon294806887, and @anon3203746736 remember these lessons well from Open Care. I want to share some stories from Open Care to sanon2696444391 what I mean -- anon2696444391 community members are already expressing what they need in times of crisis; anon2696444391 those needs aren't being served by the big organisations that are trying to help them, because those organisations don't have the infrastructure in place to listen to what they need; and anon2696444391 community members use technology in creative ways that bring people together, when that technology is tailored to their needs and not designed elsewhere and handed to them as a pre-packaged solution that doesn't take into account their context. @anon1134869991 turns our attention to mental health issues in crisis scenarios (not unlike our healthcare workers today, volunteers in refugee camps face giant welfare tasks under enormous resource strain): [quote=""anon1134869991, post:1, topic:503""] Mental health for the volunteers is a concern. Everyone lives on a knife-edge. Most volunteers self-finance their time working in Calais. They live frugally, stretching their money out. This means they end up living on top of each other. The warehouse team has a caravan park attached to the building. Volunteers with no money can stay there. Living up to 6 people in a caravan, with limited access to hot water and personal space. Volunteers who live in this enclave have a different experience to those who stay in private accommodation or hostels. [/quote] He stresses the need for mental health resources, but sanon2696444391s us that resources often don't get where they need to go: [quote=""anon1134869991, post:1, topic:503""] Everyone experiences some form of trauma. Most experience exhaustion. Often trauma comes from being in scary situations that you aren’t trained to deal with. Occasionally volunteer social workers, therapists and psychologists stop by the volunteer camps. They offer their services for free. As always, the people who need it the most are most likely to not take advantage of these services. [/quote] We learned this fact from @anon [quote=""anon Local authorities and their services operated superficially while the government was obviously unprepared. On the other hand, citizens reacted vigorously and passionately despite the fact that they didn’t mobilize immediately. [/quote] Her expertise and research lead her to come up with solutions that would actually meet people's needs on the ground: [quote=""anon Due to my profession as a fashion designer and manufacturer, when I heard about all those calls for clothing needs I started wondering who will manage all these diverse supplies. When facing a disaster, food and medical aid are considered top priorities but it’s not widely known that wearing inappropriate clothing under extreme conditions can become life threatening. It’s noteworthy that if we focus on specific issues we can come to interesting conclusions e.g. Public misinformation by “official” announcements that were based on internet searching or common knowledge about clothing. As a result, there was a shortage of A-shirts (tank tops) while, considered useless, thousands of used socks were gathered although it costs less to buy new ones. Also, acrylic socks were suggested as the most appropriate. But when there’s no luxury of changing them anytime, other materials are more suitable like; wool, bamboo, cotanon2863106368, tactel etc. Obviously, a problem, arisen from common everyday items, is more complicated than initially thought and requires an expert’s opinion. So, without surprise, no one reached out to experts from the clothing sector for professional advice and assistance. Moreover both government and UNHCR ignored any proposals or contact efforts. [/quote] Meanwhile, she notes, resources were going horribly to waste: [quote=""anon The inadequate coordination among government authorities, NGOs, solidarity groups and other stakeholders in combination with the anxiety of refugees led to a disappointing result. Large amounts of food, clothing, medicines and a lot of useless things (that could be a separate funny story), were being carried around Greece like a giant pinball machine. Unnecessary shipments, aid wasted, corrupted by mold, insects or still remain in inappropriate warehouses. A serious waste of resources. [/quote] Several community members also lamented attempts to use technology as a cure-all for refugee problems. As Alex asks: [quote=""anon1134869991, post:1, topic:6249""] How do we stop building apps and start building communities? [/quote] Attempts to provide care that are not localised and do not consult people themselves, in short, do not serve peoples’ needs best. Tomma found this when observing anon2696444391 refugees are creatively using limited resources to transform their living spaces: [quote=""anon we were sanon2696444391n the anon2488317424 gimmicks to improve the bare rooms where they are living in at the moment: How they pulled out screws and nails from the walls to make clothing hooks; anon2696444391 you make a wall-mounted phone holder with just duct tape and a piece of wood; where to store the food; they sanon2696444391ed us anon2696444391 they hack the beds to create more privacy and anon2696444391 to shield the light falling onto the upper beds with merely pieces of wood and a blanket to a point where one could create an entire ceiling with just white cloth. We learnt quickly that the ideas of anon2696444391 to use the space could never occur to someone who has never been in that exact position: **It was evident that they know best about the needs and necessities in their very situation and environment.** With the creative potential, the only problem lies in the lack of tools and materials. [/quote] These are just a few examples of many, from Open Care, that indicate that SSNA's value is in **enabling contact through contact tracing** -- seeing what community members are already doing to help each other, what resources they are articulating that they need, and connecting people together who are doing similar or compatible kinds of work." 2,74648,2020-04-20T13:06:31.130Z,13262,0,15,14,3,1,0,48.0,74642,anon3379761435,anon2559300400,"[quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13262""] A better kind of contact tracing – where we trace anon2696444391 community members are helping each other already, and what they need to do that; and a tracing that enables more contact, not less, as we connect people together who we see are working on the same or compatible issues. [/quote] This is a very lovely concept. I am looking forward to contributing to it! [quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13262""] The ethnography team is creating a new “COVID Codebook” and think we should create an SSNA mapping these “COVID codes” to sanon2696444391 anon2696444391 people are innovating and dealing with the crisis. [/quote] This is hugely important. Of course Edgeryders stands ready to provide and maintain the SSNA dashboard, and the other associated services, on a best effort basis. How about `ethno-covid19`? [quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13262""] In a way, this could pave the way for SSNA as a crisis management tool — like in Open Care, mapping what communities are already doing and where they need help and support most. [/quote] Yet another emergent use of SSNA! This is the tool that keeps on giving. Makes complete long-term sense to test it." 4,74653,2020-04-20T14:22:31.285Z,13262,0,17,16,1,0,0,53.4,74642,anon3379761435,anon2559300400,"Here is a [small personal contribution](/t/12973/23). The whole post on Edgeryders seemed a bit too in-you-face, but you find the link in the post." 5,74660,2020-04-20T16:28:33.791Z,13262,1,16,15,1,1,0,43.2,74642,anon3828707713,anon2559300400,"[quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:13262""] a tracing that enables more contact, not less, as we connect people together who we see are working on the same or compatible issues. The platform is already so much more alive with meaningful stories of these kinds of contact. [/quote] can we make this public please?" 6,74662,2020-04-20T16:38:45.805Z,13262,0,14,13,1,0,0,52.8,74660,anon2559300400,anon3828707713,Sure! 1,74111,2020-04-09T14:02:39.259Z,13178,0,21,20,51,0,0,334.2,74111,anon1753543892,anon1753543892," Image credit: Demetra Monaco To coordinate efforts and find potential connection points as well as to organise interesting and meaningful webinars for the community the anon1577251828 team is checking in with many old and new community members bringing their projects, initiatives or problems to be solved. Today I had a great call with @anon486911009 . His previous project: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/puntozero-weblab-about-innovation-and-healthcare-professions/653 seemed very interesting and relevant now. Since he could not make it to the COVID response call this Monday, so we met up in a direct call to start some ideas. ## @anon486911009 is currently working on 3 things: 1. Working with his district to develop some collective intelligence approaches for crisis management and citizen engagement. The district becomes a problem solver. Like with the fab lab Barcelona. They used open tech to make citizens aware of their abilities to improve the district. See the example here: https://pablocommons.github.io/pablocommons.github.io/english You click on certain corners on the map and you get the information provided by citizens. Are there other entities like that like the district that would be open to work like that. We are working a lot with immigrants. ### NEED: * He looks for other districts in Europe that would like to construct a collective intelligence project. * He looks for developers who could join the further development of the city map project. (ping @anon * Problem: can currently not continue to map the city using 360-degree image in tech due to curfew * Look for potential connections with Plato (ping @anon659222949). (https://pablocommons.github.io/pablocommons.github.io/english 2. Working for education. The schools are not used to learning or teaching via distance. We are trying to provide help with homework and events for families. He has done a project with Virtual Reality mapping of schools as well as teaching children between 5 and 10 to use VR for fun and to communicate ideas. ### OFFER: * Webinar on virtual classrooms: https://scuolavirtuale.github.io/ Could do webinar/1week course for parents, children (5-10) and educators to learn anon2696444391 to use VR and to make digital teaching more engaging. (more below) 3. Working with the hospital: He has been trying to connect to doctors and nurses or even students are willing to collaborate with us to provide the best information and provide prevention. Helping them to develop more effective communication strategies for children Helping them engage communities ### NEED: * More help to connect and find willing healthcare professionals as collaborators. # OFFERS: Would do/share into a webinar/ 1 week course to use VR and online teaching as creative space. (Using the Edgeryders platform as a forum for the course) Everything that is related to helping with the crisis. ### Notes on first ideas for Social Virtual reality Painting Course: (See reference project on virtual classrooms: https://scuolavirtuale.github.io/ **Interesting point:** *Let’s think about virtual classrooms in general!* ) ## The goal of the course is: * To make virtual reality accessible to children, * To give children a creative outlet in times of quarantine and curfew * To use technology to empower creativity to give them means to articulates their wishes for development to test * To conduct online teaching in a more holistic way combining digital, analogue, asynchronous and synchronous work ### The first draft outline: Workshop for children to learn anon2696444391 to draw environments for VR by hand: * 1-week course for 4-5 families: * Start first day with pre-recorded introduction video * Provide link to resources * Provide MOOC/Manual on Edgeryders (authored by @anon * Finish on last day with video call with slot for presentation for each child's project (preferably not on zoom) * Encouraging families to upload and talk about children's drawing (no images of the children, just the drawings!) * Encouraging to make the room created connected to the topic of the quarantine. LIKE: “Draw you perfect room during this Quaratain time when you can not go out” * Engage in discussion with families on anon2696444391 to use tech socially and creatively. ## First, run in the first week of May. if it works well we can reiterate + make resources available via the manual for teachers to do it with their students! @anon486911009 is currently working on a first draft proposal for this and will if possible join the Monday COVID response call next week." 2,74127,2020-04-09T14:51:44.565Z,13178,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,74111,anon486911009,anon1753543892,"Thanks @anon1753543892. Let's help children to make their dreams come true while being indoors. Hi @anon According to the development and system, do you think is there a way to sanon2696444391 360 images on anon1577251828.eu?" 3,74132,2020-04-09T15:23:34.773Z,13178,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,74127,anon3197437925,anon486911009,"Yes, 360° images are possible here ([example](/t/7961/11)). It works with [kuula.co](https://kuula.co) 360° out of the box, using either their Embedly or HTML Embed sharing options. The HTML embed (iframe based) sharing option is preferable as it sanon2696444391s up larger. If you want to use a different service for sharing 360° images, and similarly for any service for sharing virtual tours: it *should* work with Embedly / OneBox embed compatible links by just posting them on their own line here in a Discourse post. Again for the kuula.co example, you would write: `https://kuula.co/post/7lMbd` Again, results will be better when using iframe code snippets to do the embedding. To make that possible, tell me which service you want to use as I'll have to whitelist its domain in the admin settings first to make embedding possible." 4,74134,2020-04-09T15:50:38.401Z,13178,1,17,16,4,0,0,43.4,74132,anon486911009,anon3197437925,"https://kuula.co/post/7FwQ2 Great! Thanks @anon3197437925 problem solved! We can use kuula only and leave whitelist as it is. @anon1753543892 we can use anon1577251828 to publish embedded children's drawings in VR from Kuula." 5,74135,2020-04-09T16:02:49.928Z,13178,0,14,13,2,0,0,57.8,74134,anon3197437925,anon486911009,"Hey, that's a novel use of VR, great initiative :) As said, embedding with the kuula.co iframe code is preferable, as it results in a larger embed. In you case, the code given under ""Share → Export → Embed HTML"" by kuula.co is: ``` ``` And just pasting that here into the Discourse editor will result in this: " 6,74320,2020-04-14T14:46:31.417Z,13178,1,13,12,0,0,0,22.6,74111,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Have been spreading this idea around a bit and everyone is very enthusiastic! @anon486911009, I have a few questions for you: * How can we best support you? * Can you post a link for a programme to use to do some experiments? Or could people post pictures in this thread to have them converted at some point? * would you maybe also be up to do a short introduction for ""grown-up"" artists (not much prep needed) * would you potentially be interested in collaboration with one or multiple creative education experts in developing the course? * I gathered that you do not like to use Zoom, is it a prerequisite for the webinar that we find a different platform? @anon1976898802, do you think anon1577251828.now could handle it? Probably 5 to 10 call members in early May. And I also would like to use this opportunity to bring this to the attention of the ethno team. @anon2559300400 what do you think about anon2696444391 to ""code images"" and the surrounding discussions? Do you maybe have some interesting questions we could use to kick of the creation? Like ""anon2696444391 do you think your room will look like in 10 years? Maybe that would lead to the children drawing rooms that can be connected to an NGI conversation? Or ""anon2696444391 would your perfect room look like now that you are not allowed to go out?"" Or ""what should a room look like in times of Corona"", or more open like "" draw your dreams""." 7,74324,2020-04-14T15:30:44.123Z,13178,0,13,12,1,1,0,22.6,74320,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:6, topic:13178""]anon2696444391 to “code images” and the surrounding discussions?[/quote] Not too sure about the value for our purposes of coding these images, but it can be done: Open Ethnographer contains a feature to code images by marking rectangular sections and adding an annotation to them. But the above 360° images are technically not images but JavaScript elements. You can anon2696444391ever create a panorama version of these, or in this case even better an ""unfolded cube"" version and code these. As this plain version is not relevant for normal users, I propose it would be added by moderator users into `[details=""Summary""] … [/details]` tags, to be hidden for normal users (except when they really want to see this)." 8,74341,2020-04-15T07:43:18.019Z,13178,0,12,11,1,0,0,37.4,74111,anon486911009,anon1753543892,"Hi @anon1753543892, i'm figuring out the workflow as well, as it is something completely new and challenging. Here are some answers to your questions.. *How can we best support you?* i think you are already doing it; anon1577251828 platform is the perfect place for this. As primer for both i would say to make it as simple as possible. Is a thread the best place, or a wiki? We must consider perhaps people already confident and familiar with anon1577251828 platform, otherwise they should be trained about anon1577251828 as well; i hope people from the community with children is going to be inspired by such proposal. *Can you post a link for a programme to use to do some experiments? Or could people post pictures in this thread to have them converted at some point?* According to @anon3197437925 suggestions we proceed by uploading 2:1 images of drawings on [https://kuula.co/](https://kuula.co/) and then sharing those on anon1577251828. *would you maybe also be up to do a short introduction for “grown-up” artists (not much prep needed)* of course *would you potentially be interested in collaboration with one or multiple creative education experts in developing the course?* sure! :fist_right: *I gathered that you do not like to use Zoom, is it a prerequisite for the webinar that we find a different platform? @anon1976898802, do you think anon1577251828.now could handle it? Probably 5 to 10 call members in early May.* I can use Zoom, no problem. Anything goes. About a possible virtual ethnography of virtual reality sounds great, as far as we understand anon2696444391 to deal with coding about no textual representations (@anon3197437925 thanks again! the idea of selecting rectangula sections) and thick description of imaginaries by children. Maybe we could ask other children to comment images and be reflective on such experience. @anon2559300400 any suggestions? (Hi there!). In the future, it would be also interesting to get a VR image of the social network about VR images... going fractal..sorry. As soon as possible I'll provide a visual workflow and we can decide on a date for the event." 9,74522,2020-04-17T09:31:59.336Z,13178,0,8,7,1,0,0,36.6,74111,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Regarding an funding application to the https://anon1577251828.eu/t/culture-of-solidarity-fund/13140 here their answer for the timeframe for projects: [European Cultural Foundation](https://www.facebook.com/EuropeanCulturalFoundation/?comment_id=Y29tbWVudDo4MjczODM4NDc3NTE3ODFfODI3Mzg2MDU3NzUxNTYw) > We have no strict limitations regarding project timelines. As for starting date, activities within the frames of the project proposals may start prior to the submission deadline (27 April), but we can only consider projects that are still ongoing at the time of the selection of awarded proposals (31 May). Projects may also continue into 2021, in fact, the complete timeline of the project may be up to 24 months." 1,74456,2020-04-16T08:12:43.201Z,13240,0,12,11,29,0,0,192.4,74456,anon2742684877,anon2742684877,"Hello, Not sure where to put this, but I received an email via the social network analyst listserver about the Social Connectedness Index (produced by Facebook). Facebook is sharing the data with non-profits and researchers (""This tool is only available to nonprofits and researchers. Interested researchers are invited to email sci_data@anon ""The dataset is called the ""Social Connectedness Index"", and measures the intensity of social links between geographies as represented through Facebook friends. It corresponds to the (relative) probability that two arbitrary Facebook users across two geographies are friends with each other. The data is available at various levels of geographic aggregation, such as U.S. zip codes. It also exists for regions around the world (e.g., NUTS2 and NUTS3 regions in Europe, GADM1 regions in most countries)."" https://dataforgood.fb.com/docs/covid19/#social-connectedness-index The data has been used to explore contagion patterns of covid19 in the US. I'm wondering if something else can be done with the data. For example, discover regions that are forgotten/ left behind because they are not connected, look at patterns between social connectedness and community responses. What are your thoughts? Katerina" 2,74458,2020-04-16T08:40:06.384Z,13240,0,11,10,1,0,0,52.2,74456,anon2197402769,anon2742684877,"Gosh, I read ""Social CoRRectedness Index"" a couple of times! And was trying to figure out why cross-geographic relationships (which probably correlate more with wealth than with social correct(ed)ness) should be an indicator for that. :rofl:" 1,74374,2020-04-15T10:10:33.395Z,13227,0,9,8,3,0,0,16.8,74374,anon2794261635,anon2794261635,"Transmitting the info received and posting here as it might be of interest to the larger community. TETRA is a business accelerator for [NGI](https://www.ngi.eu/) beneficiaries. If you received funding from an NGI Project through an [NGI Open Call](https://www.ngi.eu/opencalls/), they support your project and help the idea to successfully enter the market. TETRA is annoucing the start of their online programme with the first webinar taking place on 29 April at 10:30 CEST. The topic of the webinar is **""An introduction to the world of international tendering""** and is concentrating on anon2696444391 TETRA can help the innovators to open that door of opportunity for their business to be successful in winning international tenders. More information and registration [here](https://business.ngi.eu/news-events/webinars/webinar-1-access-to-international-public-contracts/)." 2,74386,2020-04-15T11:03:11.318Z,13227,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,74374,anon1753543892,anon2794261635,ping @anon2252645440 1,73347,2020-04-02T09:55:45.673Z,13089,1,57,56,2094,0,0,10606.4,73347,anon3379761435,anon3379761435," *This topic is now closed. Find the writeup and subsequent discussion [here](/t/13183).* Several of the smartest people we know in the Net activism space are worried. SARS-CoV-2 will be defeated, at some point; but it might leave behind new limitations to civil liberties and privacy. We have had two decades of [consumer surveillance](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/24/opinion/sunday/surveillance-capitalism.html); and at least one decade of the inter-governmental panopticon we learned about through [Edward Snowden's revelations](https://www.npr.org/2019/09/13/759833071/in-permanent-record-edward-snowden-makes-his-case-against-mass-surveillance). The right to privacy online has been tenuous at best for anon2373157426 a while, but that encroachment has not, so far, directly curtailed basic civil liberties. Until COVID-19 hit. Suddenly everyone is coding mobile apps to track who has been in touch with whom. There are reports of dodgy companies like Palantir and Clearview AI collaborating with major governments on digital tools to monitor and contain contagion. And, in the rush to beat the pandemic: a formidable social pressure is mounting to ""just do what we are told"". At the same time, many activists are trying to mount less invasive solutions; disposable identities that track one's health status during an outbreak and then are destroyed; or opt-in digital commons. Which freedoms are we really risking? What do we stand to gain in return? **We organize a community listening session on Thursday April 9th at 17.00 CEST**, in the context of [IOT Day](https://www.iotday.org/). ### Format & practical information * Full information sheet: **https://bit.ly/SurveillancePandemic** * A Zoom meeting (ironic, I know – we are looking into alternatives, but we have no time to properly test before qe go live). **[Click here to join the meeting](https://zoom.us/j/566856233) starting 16.45 on Thursday April 9th.** * **Not a panel, an open, moderated discussion**. A moderator will give the floor to people who want to contribute something. Some have already volunteered (see list below, updated continuously). If you want to share your point of view, use the call's chat to let us know, and the moderator will give you the floor. If you have a question to ask the speaker, ask it in the chat (better) or let us know you want to ask a question. Questions are taken before we move on to the next speaker. * **We commit to doing a proper writeup of the result** (aka ""documentation, or it didn't happen""). Edgeryders also deploys its team of ethnographers for participant observation and note-taking. * **Everyone welcome**. Below there is a list of the people who have agreed to sanon2696444391 up. If you are coming too, we are happy to put you on it. If you prefer not to be on the list, that's OK too. * **Please note we aim to publish the content of the conversation as public knowledge, available to activists and scholars**. However, this will happen through writeups by people in Edgeryders. We will not record the call, and event the writeups will not mention any names. ### Confirmed at the time of writing – check back for updates This is a list of people who confirmed their attendance, not a panel. The listening session is simply a moderated discussion. You do not need to be on the list to attend, just click on the link. Once in, if you have something to say, ask for the floor and a moderator will give it to you. * Amelia Andersdotter, [CENTR](https://www.centr.org/) (@anon1732761404) * Marco Manca, [SCImPULSE](http://www.scimpulse.org/) (@anon2619552108) * Stefano Epifani, University of Rome 1 * Eireann Leverett, [Concinnity Risks](https://concinnity-risks.com/) (@anon1996966876) * Corinne-Cath Speth. [Oxford Internet Institute](https://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/) (@anon3708943593) * Anne-Marie Naylor, [Future Care Capital](futurecarecapital.org.uk) (@anon2973705256) * Phil Booth, [MedConfidential](https://medconfidential.org) * Giovanni Battista Gallus, [Hermes Center for transparency and digital human rights](https://www.hermescenter.org/) (twitter: @anon * Katja Bego, [NESTA](https://nesta.org.uk), [NGI Forward](https://research.ngi.eu) @anon1965424313 * Alexandrine Pirlot de Corion, [Privacy International](https://www.privacyinternational.org) * Anthony Zacharzewsky, [The Democratic Society](https://demsoc.org) (@anon @anon2559300400 @anon3708943593 @anon1753543892 I am going to need you here... please save the date. Also ping @anon1965424313 @anon3554654177

### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png)" 2,73364,2020-04-02T11:06:36.000Z,13089,0,42,41,3,0,0,23.4,73347,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Sounds great! Can you add it here [https://www.iotday.org](https://www.iotday.org) Then I can. Start promoting it, Rob" 3,73376,2020-04-02T13:05:41.225Z,13089,2,38,37,2,0,0,42.6,73347,anon2336047513,anon3379761435,"Great and all, but Zoom? Really? I'm out, that being the case. I am seeing too much of this, from Naomi Klein and the Intercept putting everything out on YouTube to The Guardian talking about modern masculinity on the same platform which has done as much as any to lead to toxic masculinity... Please consider [Jitsi Meet](https://meet.jit.si/). It is very easy to use, I have seen it used for conferences, and, though self-hosting is the most secure option, it is, [unlike Zoom](https://theintercept.com/2020/03/31/zoom-meeting-encryption/) (who lied about it) end-to-end encrypted." 4,73377,2020-04-02T13:11:49.524Z,13089,1,36,35,1,0,0,32.2,73376,anon3379761435,anon2336047513,"I respect your position. We are already testing several solutions, including Jitsi, Big Blue Butanon2863106368 and https://now.anon1577251828.eu. But tests will not be exhaustive in a week. So, we have chosen the devil we know and the minimization of the time spent asking each other ""can you hear me? can you seee me? wait, I am going to leave the meeting then get back in"" and so on. Our apologies. In this case, the Zoom issues are mitigated by the fact that we want to produce publicly available content. The questionable ethics of the Zoom company remains, and make no mistake: they *have* lost this customer, they just don't know it yet." 5,73382,2020-04-02T13:29:16.406Z,13089,0,10,9,0,1,0,2.0,73347,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13089""]Confirmed, 2020-04-02, 12:00 CET: […] please save the date.[/quote] Wrong date and time maybe? Or has this event indeed already happened?" 6,73383,2020-04-02T13:30:50.562Z,13089,0,10,9,0,1,0,2.0,73382,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13089""] We organize a webinar on Thursday April 9th, in the context of [IOT Day](https://www.iotday.org/), time to be announced. [/quote] Those are the people who have confirmed as of that date." 7,73384,2020-04-02T13:34:07.461Z,13089,1,33,32,1,0,0,31.6,73376,anon3828707713,anon2336047513,"We know 😔 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-test-customers-for-jitsi-servers/13080/9" 8,73415,2020-04-02T15:55:47.497Z,13089,0,32,31,1,0,0,11.4,73347,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,@anon3086952555 are you interested in being a part of this? 9,73417,2020-04-02T16:07:38.030Z,13089,1,33,32,1,0,0,16.6,73377,anon2336047513,anon3379761435,"Thanks for your response. I understand where you're coming from, I have just seen a few things flagged up in the last week and I am reacting to a wider tendency to overlook free / open source solutions which have less in the way of VC funding, PR, etc. etc. Still and all, apparently they are [looking in to it](https://twitter.com/thegrugq/status/1245708859701784577) (this just one of a number of posts on this theme)." 10,73418,2020-04-02T16:19:01.872Z,13089,2,33,32,1,1,0,21.6,73417,anon3379761435,anon2336047513,"[quote=""anon2336047513, post:9, topic:13089""] I am reacting to a wider tendency to overlook free / open source solutions which have less in the way of VC funding, PR, etc. etc. [/quote] I feel you. We have been trying to [go stackless](/t/9422) for over a year. It is surprisingly difficult and frustrating. This platform is FOSS, and so are our company chat (Matrix) and minimalistic project management tool (Dynalist). But we are still using big G for file storage, and proprietary accounting software, and, yes, Zoom. :frowning:" 11,73428,2020-04-02T17:00:39.995Z,13089,0,31,30,1,0,0,11.2,73418,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,I looked just now at Zoom's website to see if they have a response to the large amount of bad press resulting from revelations arising from that lawsuit. They say nothing about the problem. I think that is irresponsible of them to not make a privacy declaration at this time. 12,73441,2020-04-02T18:08:37.799Z,13089,0,31,30,1,0,0,11.2,73384,anon2336047513,anon3828707713,"Glancing over, I can see you are on it. Far more so than many other institutions I've seen trying to do something in this area.. Thanks." 13,73444,2020-04-02T18:13:28.682Z,13089,3,31,30,1,0,0,71.2,73418,anon2336047513,anon3379761435,"Haven't looked over EdgeRiders for years now.. You've gone further than most so fair play. It is _very_ hard and easy to wind up marginalising oneself just for making an effort beyond that people exploring the political / social side first are able to go. Still, this platform is better than most so I'm thinking I'll come back here and there.." 14,73452,2020-04-02T20:42:41.297Z,13089,0,29,28,1,0,0,10.8,73444,anon3203746736,anon2336047513,Please do! 15,73465,2020-04-03T07:22:14.254Z,13089,3,30,29,0,0,0,21.0,73347,anon3708943593,anon3379761435,"Thank you for the initiative! I will join the call later, as I am a bit packed this afternoon. Someanon2696444391 this pandemic has increased rather than slowed down my workload. kind regards, ccs" 16,73466,2020-04-03T07:23:44.323Z,13089,0,31,30,1,0,0,41.2,73465,anon3828707713,anon3708943593,right??? How did this happen :roll_eyes: 17,73469,2020-04-03T08:24:25.038Z,13089,0,30,29,1,1,0,56.0,73444,anon3379761435,anon2336047513,"[quote=""anon2336047513, post:13, topic:13089""] You’ve gone further than most so fair play. [/quote] Thanks, recognition means a lot. As I said, we are anon2373157426 frustrated with anon2696444391 slowly it goes. I have been begging the EU to fund an open source Google Drive (at the time it was still called Google Docs) since 2008. And here we are now. :-( Hopefully we will pull through, together... and here we must acknowledge the great work of the Discourse people. We were always open source with our main platform, but it used to be a horribly clunky Drupal Commons affair with seven layers of duct tape keeping it together. Migration to modern, well designed FOSS was the best thing that ever happened to us!" 18,73470,2020-04-03T08:31:58.660Z,13089,0,28,27,1,0,0,25.6,73465,anon3379761435,anon3708943593,"Corinne, I am counting on you! But the call is next week, on Thursday." 19,73482,2020-04-03T09:27:33.741Z,13089,1,29,28,0,1,0,25.8,73465,anon3379761435,anon3708943593,"[quote=""anon3708943593, post:15, topic:13089""] Thank you for the initiative! [/quote] @anon" 20,73490,2020-04-03T09:39:59.848Z,13089,1,29,28,1,0,0,15.8,73482,anon3708943593,anon3379761435,of course - Oxford Internet Institute :slight_smile: 21,73491,2020-04-03T09:42:19.406Z,13089,1,26,25,1,0,0,15.2,73347,anon2360576655,anon3379761435,"Is it possible to join the call even with no domain expertise, just as interested individuals?" 22,73492,2020-04-03T09:42:31.891Z,13089,1,25,24,1,0,0,15.0,73490,anon3828707713,anon3708943593,"@anon3379761435 to save everyone time maybe re-use @anon ### Corinne Cath-Speth **Cultural anthropologist of technology governance, Oxford Internet Institute** Corinne Cath-Speth is a PhD student at the Oxford Internet Institute and Alan Turing Institute for AI. She is a cultural anthropologist studying Internet governance culture. Her PhD presents an ethnographic case study of human rights NGOs working in Internet governance organizations. She is interested in the Internet companies most people have never heard of but use every day and the human rights organizations ### Rob Van Kranenburg **Director, Resonance Design** Rob van Kranenburg, is the Founder of Council_IoT and #iotday; co-founder of Bricolabs. He has authored The Internet of Things: A Critique of ambient technology and the all-seeing network of RFID (2007); co-author of Situated Technologies Pamphlets 8. He is Director of Resonance Design BV, partnering in the NGI CSA Strategy NGI Forward." 23,73493,2020-04-03T09:43:13.360Z,13089,1,24,23,1,0,0,14.8,73492,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,Do we need bios for everyone? 24,73494,2020-04-03T09:43:36.944Z,13089,1,23,22,1,0,0,14.6,73493,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"yes I think so, helps give context. Also, I can then make you nice flyers to promote it if you like." 25,73499,2020-04-03T09:46:03.833Z,13089,0,23,22,12,0,0,64.6,73494,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,"Cannot commit to chasing people around though. Plus, I fear ""too many words on the page"". Let's give it until Monday and re-evaluate." 26,73500,2020-04-03T09:48:34.623Z,13089,0,24,23,1,1,0,24.8,73491,anon3379761435,anon2360576655,"[quote=""anon2360576655, post:21, topic:13089, full:true""] Is it possible to join the call even with no domain expertise, just as interested individuals? [/quote] Of course, anon2360576655. That's what I am doing myself. Just click on the link Thursday at 17.00." 27,73579,2020-04-04T14:31:05.459Z,13089,0,23,22,1,0,0,9.6,73347,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Meanwhile, in the UK... @anon2619552108 @anon https://twitter.com/halhod/status/1245297265054367744" 28,73580,2020-04-04T15:33:19.537Z,13089,0,23,22,1,0,0,24.6,73347,anon2863106368,anon3379761435,"Sounds like a worthy conversation to have. Have suggested to you on the birdsite to also invite Martijntje Smits ([@anon I may not be able to join the session myself, 17-19hrs is a key family timeslot in the day, so will look forward to the resulting output." 29,73644,2020-04-05T23:29:01.553Z,13089,0,23,22,1,0,0,9.6,73347,anon646763613,anon3379761435,"Hosting a conversation about a surveillance pandemic on Zoom is like hosting a conference about Philip Morris corruption in a fumoir. Absurd! I'm happy to help you by providing a Jitsi instance and any help you need to use it successfully. It's just a matter of adapting the configuration to whatever are your special needs. You can find more people willing to help at https://framatalk.org/accueil/en/info/ . On some of the problems with Zoom (and others): https://epic.org/privacy/ftc/zoom/ https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/harden-your-zoom-settings-protect-your-privacy-and-avoid-trolls https://noyb.eu/en/interrupted-transmission https://boingboing.net/2020/04/03/zoom-windows-login.html There are better ways: https://fsfe.org/news/2020/news-20200403-01.html https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2020/mar/17/remotetools/ https://medium.com/@anon" 30,73645,2020-04-06T00:35:18.946Z,13089,1,19,18,1,0,0,13.8,73347,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Hello @anon646763613, and welcome. Thanks for your links. We are aware of the problem, as explained [above](/t/13089/4). We are already exploring a number of alternatives, including an offer for Jitsi-on-our-own-server. I do not think any of the alternatives will be battle-tested by Thursday. If our tech make the call that we can migrate the event, we will, happily. If not, we won't. The bad of using Zoom is a bit mitigated by the fact that we want the proceedings to be public and open source anyway, so our privacy needs are low." 31,73725,2020-04-06T13:01:44.453Z,13089,2,19,18,1,0,0,33.8,73645,anon4227321102,anon3379761435,"Hi all, great meeting and just checking... it will be hosted on Zoom on 9th Apr 1700?" 32,73730,2020-04-06T13:14:08.382Z,13089,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,73725,anon3379761435,anon4227321102,"That is correct, @anon4227321102. The link is in the first post in this topic." 33,73735,2020-04-06T13:31:54.668Z,13089,1,17,16,1,1,0,13.4,73725,anon1753543892,anon4227321102,"[quote=""anon4227321102, post:31, topic:13089""] 9th Apr 1700 [/quote] CET or CEST?" 34,73737,2020-04-06T13:33:49.718Z,13089,0,18,17,1,1,0,23.6,73735,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:33, topic:13089""] > 9th Apr 1700 CET or CEST? [/quote] CEST. I just updated the first post of the topic." 35,73862,2020-04-07T08:42:24.474Z,13089,1,17,16,3,0,0,38.4,73347,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"The Chaos Computer Club, bless their anarchists' hearts, published a list of *minimal* requirements that contact tracing apps should have. I am just going to leave it here. Among them: > The system must be designed in such a way that movement profiles (location tracking) or contact profiles (patterns of frequent contacts traceable to specific people) can't be established intentionally or unintentionally. Methods such as central GPS/location logging or linking the data to telephone numbers, social media accounts and the like must therefore be rejected as a matter of principle. And, for the joy of @anon3554654177: > IDs for ""contact tracing"" via wireless technology (e.g. Bluetooth or ultrasound) must not be traceable to persons and must change frequently. For this reason, it is also forbidden to connect or derive IDs with accompanying communication data such as push tokens, telephone numbers, IP addresses used, device IDs etc. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2020/contact-tracing-requirements" 36,73874,2020-04-07T09:06:22.000Z,13089,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,73862,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Would be good if the ccc could have a look at [https://github.com/disposableidentities/healthcrisis/blob/master/README.md](https://github.com/disposableidentities/healthcrisis/blob/master/README.md)" 37,74055,2020-04-09T09:49:32.731Z,13089,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,73874,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"@anon3554654177 even if they looked at it, they are refusing to greenlight any tech solution. I think they are right in taking that stance. In infosec you can only prove that things are broken, you can never prove a negative result that things are *not* broken. > CCC will under no circumstances ever provide a concrete implementation with approval, recommendation, a certificate or test seal. > > It is the responsibility of the developers of contact tracing systems to prove the fulfillment of these requirements or to have them proven by independent third parties." 38,74056,2020-04-09T10:01:25.000Z,13089,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,74055,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"So easy. Just critique, never come with a positive solution." 39,74057,2020-04-09T10:07:36.606Z,13089,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,74056,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"Rob, it's just anon2696444391 it works. Science is the same by the way: you can only finally *disprove* a theory, never positively prove it." 40,74073,2020-04-09T10:51:19.545Z,13089,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,73444,anon1996966876,anon2336047513,Nice to see you back! A๛ฒฏผไท%๋n=u{:๐ 41,74092,2020-04-09T12:23:21.000Z,13089,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,74057,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Well, I think in this day and age you are v very irrelevant then." 42,74100,2020-04-09T12:56:28.218Z,13089,0,13,12,1,1,0,7.6,74092,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"[quote=""anon3554654177, post:41, topic:13089""] in this day and age you are v very irrelevant then. [/quote] Would not be the first time :slight_smile:" 43,74102,2020-04-09T12:58:46.684Z,13089,0,13,12,0,0,0,47.6,73347,anon1996966876,anon3379761435,"Here’s a OPT-In prior work on an app to help with disease spread. Created by my former advisor, and one of my fave teachers nearly a decade ago. https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/srg/netos/projects/archive/fluphone/ While this project may not have been reviewed for privacy implications of the time, and certainly the technological tools we have for preserving privacy has moved on, I know they both are willing and able to examine their projects for privacy implications. I add it here to sanon2696444391 anon2696444391 apps *could* be part of the solution, if they were designed to respect privacy from the start." 44,74103,2020-04-09T12:59:11.281Z,13089,0,14,13,1,0,0,37.8,73347,anon1996966876,anon3379761435,"The publications are helpful too: * D. Fay, J. Kunegis, and E. Yoneki **“Centrality and Mode Detection in Dynamic Contact Graphs; a Joint Diagonalisation Approach”.** IEEE/ACM ASONAM, Niagara Falls, Canada, Canada, August, 2013 ([PDF](https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~ey204/pubs/2013_ASONAM.pdf)). * D. Fay, J. Kunegis, and E. Yoneki **""On Joint Diagonalization for Dynamic Network Analysis "".** Technical Report, University of Cambridge, 2011 ([UCAM-CL-TR-806](http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-806.html) ). * E. Yoneki **""FluPhone Study: Virtual Disease Spread using Haggle "".** ACM CHANTS, 2011 ([PDF](http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~ey204/pubs/2011_CHANTS.pdf)). * E. Yoneki, and J. Crowcroft **""EpiMap: Towards Quantifying Contact Networks and Modelling the Spread of Infections in Developing Countries "".** International Conference on Wireless Technologies for Humanitarian Relief (ACWR), December, 2011([PDF](http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~ey204/pubs/2011_ACWR.pdf)). * M. Freeman, N. Watkins, E. Yoneki, and J. Crowcroft **"" Rhythm and Randomness in Human Contact"".** International Conference on Advances in Social Networks Analysis and Mining (ASONAM), Odense, Denmark, August, 2010 ([PDF](http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~ey204/pubs/2010_ASONAM.pdf)). * E. Yoneki **“Visualizing Communities and Centralities from Encounter Traces”.** ACM MobiCom Workshop on Challenged Networks (CHANTS), San Francisco, USA, September, 2008 ([PDF](http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~ey204/pubs/2008_CHANTS.pdf))." 45,74104,2020-04-09T13:00:41.559Z,13089,2,14,13,2,0,0,52.8,73347,anon1996966876,anon3379761435,"So while APPs could be helpful, and so could data, Edin of Privacy International covers a global trend of enforcing people to install apps and invade their privacy through a variety of surveillance mechanisms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-w51EfpY24 I think the RSA covers this tension well: Data could help, but it must be freely given, protected in a variety of ways, and transparency about it's use must be maintained and sustained. https://www.thersa.org/discover/publications-and-articles/rsa-blogs/2020/04/data-coronavirus-crisis" 46,74106,2020-04-09T13:29:06.115Z,13089,1,14,13,1,0,0,27.8,74104,anon3379761435,anon1996966876,"I really like that RSA link, @anon1996966876. As we have seen from our data rights work, there already existed a desire among the public for greater say and control over their data rights. If the crisis is the catalyst, anon2696444391 do we deliver workable mechanisms that prompt positive change? > This is where deliberation – facilitated conversation by citizens – comes in. The RSA’s Tech and Society team has found deliberation of inestimable value, not only in building trust between citizens and radical technologies, but also in enabling citizens to co-design governance mechanisms. The RSA’s [Forum for Ethical AI](https://www.thersa.org/action-and-research/rsa-projects/economy-enterprise-manufacturing-folder/tech-and-society/forum-for-ethical-ai/) enabled just this sort of dialogue in the context of automated decision systems. This is exactly what we want to do here. :slight_smile:" 47,74110,2020-04-09T14:01:32.596Z,13089,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,74106,anon1996966876,anon3379761435,See you in a anon2488317424 while then to listen and learn. Looking forward to it. 48,74112,2020-04-09T14:03:41.525Z,13089,2,12,11,1,1,0,47.4,73347,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon1996966876, post:45, topic:13089""]Data could help, but it must be freely given[/quote] The Icelanding COVID-19 contact tracing app is not bad in this regard. [From their README](https://github.com/aranja/rakning-c19-app#rakning-c-19-app): > With the user's consent the app keeps their location data. In case the contact tracing team of the Department of Civil Protection and Emergency Management needs to track someone's movements, they will be asked to upload their location data. > > This would allow for the tracing team to help retrace a user's movements for the last two weeks and increase the likelihood of identifying individuals you might have been in contact with. Completely automated, continuous sharing of data might not have higher privacy implications when employing data obfuscation and cloaking mechanisms. But users can't understand these mechanisms properly, so they can't ""give freely"". Even I would prefer to give raw data on request than obfuscated data continuously. It appears that the Icelanding system is about requesting the infected person for their location data of the last two weeks. That won't help to find all the contacts, as not all the places know their guests (public transport won't know, for example). What they could do is add a feature to this software that will broadcast a request like ""anyone who has been at [location] at [time], please step forward"". The app on the user's phone would do all the work of figuring out if the user has been there and then, and only if so, would notify the user, asking to confirm sharing this detail with the civil protection services. It's a distributed, privacy enabled database system because every user has full control over the location database on their own phone." 49,74114,2020-04-09T14:05:06.752Z,13089,0,13,12,1,1,0,22.6,74112,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:48, topic:13089""] Even I would prefer to give raw data on request than obfuscated data continuously. [/quote] YES! I agree wholeheartedly." 50,74118,2020-04-09T14:12:28.134Z,13089,0,13,12,1,1,0,7.6,74112,anon1996966876,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:48, topic:13089""] Completely automated, continuous sharing of data might not have higher privacy implications when employing data obfuscation and cloaking mechanisms. But users can’t understand these mechanisms properly, so they can’t “give freely”. Even I would prefer to give raw data on request than obfuscated data continuously. [/quote] I very much agree. It's frustrating when there are so many great techniques for preserving privacy in location services that are cool pieces of cryptography...yet if we can't explain zero knowledge proofs and homomorphic encryption methods, then we can't expect the public to trust them. Sad, but true. So these opt in approaches are the best (and if we're lucky, can spearhead more trust in those cryptographic methods). Thanks for a positive example...and I like the open source approach to health data. Reminds me of @anon" 51,74133,2020-04-09T15:27:16.332Z,13089,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,73347,anon2860100070,anon3379761435,"Happy to be part of this call @anon3379761435 Thanks @anon1753543892 for keeping me informed of this." 52,74161,2020-04-10T14:12:00.905Z,13089,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,73347,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/10/fauci-coronavirus-immunity-cards-for-americans-are-being-discussed-178784 53,74184,2020-04-11T12:16:21.595Z,13089,0,13,12,3,0,0,17.6,73347,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Find the writeup and subsequent discussion at the link below. Closing this topic. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-what-happened-in-the-community-listening-post-on-risks-for-freedom-in-the-wake-of-covid-19/13183" 54,74185,2020-04-11T12:16:27.366Z,13089,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,73347,anon3379761435,anon3379761435, 1,73853,2020-04-07T07:46:26.207Z,13158,2,19,18,9,0,0,118.8,73853,anon1222839618,anon1222839618," *This is a picture from the Quarantine Jam that we organized two week ago in Trust in Play: this one was a playtest of a game where we were giving each other tasks, I asked everybody to sanon2696444391 me some skin.* ## “What are you doing in life?” I'm a game designer and in this moment I'm teaching/ managing a Game Lab (http://gamelab.mica.edu/) for 75% of my time, and coordinating a branch of a project called Trust in Play (https://community.trustinplay.eu/) - the European School of Urban Game Design. On the side I have other design-based activity to keep me busy. For the first part, we switched our activities online (this by the way is the first time in 10 years that I have a steady income so I fell really privileged). For Trust in Play I was coordinating the Nomadic branch, with Trainees all over the world, so we were already in a digital realm. ## “What worries you the most about your situation now?” I'm worried of a new reality in which physical human interaction will be discouraged. I'm worried for my health (and my weight). I'm worried for my relationship. ## “What makes you hopeful about the future?” I hope that we find a vaccine soon. ## “If you are becoming more communal or not, are you going to do things differently? which ones?” I don't know my neighbours, literally I don't know (and never cared) about who is living next door. I think this is something that I'm going to fix soon, but is only because of this extreme situation. ## A lesson that life is teaching you: Don't over-design or fast-design. Brain power is limited and as humans we are not that good at predicting stuff." 2,73854,2020-04-07T07:50:17.076Z,13158,1,17,16,24,1,0,128.4,73853,anon294806887,anon1222839618,"[quote=""anon1222839618, post:1, topic:13158""] I’m worried of a new reality in which physical human interaction will be discouraged. [/quote] I understand the deep fear that is almost metaphysical.. but anon2696444391 do you think this is going to affect your job? Are you hopeful about game versions that can and will be played online, and the opportunities for innovation in designing for a near future with less sociality as we know it? This is such a creative field that it could open up endless possibilities.. But then, you are not a game designer only. You are an *urban* game designer.. so will you have to switch gears @anon1222839618 ?" 3,74020,2020-04-08T12:38:40.110Z,13158,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,73854,anon1222839618,anon294806887,"Urban Game designers are already coming up with a lot of creative solutions, some of them are already available [here](https://community.trustinplay.eu/t/quarantale-collection-of-ideas-for-quarantine-play/842) , [here](https://community.trustinplay.eu/t/call-for-collection-of-short-instructional-games/810) or [here](https://itch.io/jam/tip-quarantinejam/entries)..it's a survival choice, tough. Personally I prefer to take a *lateral* step (not back, but on the side), and maybe focus on writing, building physical stuff, orienting myself to community engagement and take a pause from the design ""urge"", since there are all the ingredients for fast burnout :smile:" 4,74022,2020-04-08T12:45:42.571Z,13158,1,13,12,1,1,0,27.6,73853,anon3379761435,anon1222839618,"[quote=""anon1222839618, post:1, topic:13158""] I’m worried for my relationship. [/quote] Me too. Expect a post. Hang in there, my friend... :shamrock:" 5,74141,2020-04-10T07:47:50.699Z,13158,0,11,10,0,0,0,2.2,74022,anon294806887,anon3379761435,"I did not want to ask more about this because private lives can be so sensitive topics, but I wish you both the best. And of course, curious anon2696444391 this conversation would be had among us, perhaps it's good to make each other available for listening and advice, in private rooms. From my end, goes without saying. <3" 6,74162,2020-04-10T14:13:43.104Z,13158,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,73853,anon1222839618,anon1222839618,"It's interesting because those worries were mine also *before* the virus hit, if I think deeply, I was worried about a society with less and less human interaction and prejudice, I was worried about my body (which I think is a mirror for other deepest worry about self-care) and I am evaluating and experimenting and re-balancing my relationship, so I guess, as a friend of mine said, this scenario is just *accelerating* things, accentuating crisis that were there before and pushing for changes that were in the air before, what do you think?" 7,74169,2020-04-10T16:17:29.194Z,13158,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,74162,anon294806887,anon1222839618,"Ok, my first reaction to your comment was to browse for fear related articles (!) but nothing really compelling comes out that I could share with you that's a bit conforting [sigh] I'm not an optimist person, but I can't help but think: whatever you were doing or not doing before this crisis to diminish anxiety around certain things - now you can only do *more* of those, no? If you didn't have time to talk about problems, now you can do it. If you didn't go to therapy, now you can do it ( speaking from experience, even sessions on whatsapp can work if you need cbt or similar). If you didn't consider important life decisions, now you can carefully consider them - even addressing a problem is a bit of a relief and step forward. If you didn't have time to exercise, now you can do it. And something that we didn't have before lockdown and forced rest is this: a rested brain to help us diminish at least the stress of the daily life and work.. Can't be grateful enough for that. Two more notes: - the above could stand provided that your basic needs for food, space, light etc are in check, if only to an extent. I mean, there could be a lot of shit happening for each of us, so yeah, it varies a lot.. - existential anxiety is probably harder to cope with these days, but that's anxiety for you.. and so other than therapy, new hobbies, meditation, like solid selfcare practices, I don't know anon2696444391 people deal with it." 1,73708,2020-04-06T12:12:34.862Z,13144,0,9,8,5,0,0,41.8,73708,anon2763177177,anon2763177177,"Hi community! Some months ago we were announcing our 1st round, and now I come back to share with you that we are in the middle of the **[NGI Explorers 2nd Open Call](https://explorers.ngi.eu/apply-now)**. NGI Explorers is the fellowship program to receive funding from the European Commission and the Next Generation Internet to work with USA Partners in their premises. The immersive experiences will take place in October 2020, so applicants should not be concerned about the current international blockade. To support the exceptional situation generated by the Covid-19 outbreak, in NGI Explorers we have extended the deadline of our 2nd open call to 21 April. 📅 **NEW Deadline**: 21 April 2020, 12:00 PM (Brussels Time) 🎯 [explorers.ngi.eu/apply-now](http://explorers.ngi.eu/apply-now) ℹ️ 2nd Webinar: 8 April, 12PM - Register here: https://lnkd.in/ecw9VJX" 1,72824,2020-03-29T15:00:47.053Z,13013,2,26,25,217,0,0,1147.2,72824,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"I am just off a very interesting call with @anon2619552108. He and @anon **It turns out that the health care system, in many countries (but not in all), got overoptimized over the years**. It was honed to be efficient in the context of a predictable environment, with a known mix of pathologies. Over time, it discarded redundancies and second lines. It is now badly equipped to deal with unknown unknowns and black swan events. **Overoptimization also happened in agent space**. Not only hospital wards not running at full capacity were closed: the people who got promoted to leadership positions in public health tended to be narrow specialists, who build their career on, say, hepatitis B. Their epistemic horizon is *also* made for stable environments. They do not know anon2696444391 to move in an epistemic space where evidence is absent, or ambiguous; they are not used to questioning evidence, and dislike doing so. The result was a situation where *evidence from China was not sifted and interrogated, but mistrusted*. As a result, many countries in Europe underestimated SARS-CoV-2 (""mortality is like a flu's"", which is of course true *if you have the resources to treat every affected person to high standards*). At this point, in Marco's reconstruction, the whole system went into emergency mode. The emergency, plus the epistemic rigidity, mean that the protocols that are being communicated to doctors on the frontline are shaky at best, and ""magical thinking"" at worst. Ward directors and even government guidelines (Italy) will tell doctors to ""keep working on patients *even if you test positive, as long as you asymptomatic*"" (!!!), or to wear makeshift masks if you do not have any proper ones ""because they are better than nothing"". Intensive care wards are being erected in a few days, by reconverting space from, say, psychiatric ones. Additionally – and this is very, very serious – there are strong suspicion that actual data are being hidden or misrepresented. Hidden: I have some personal evidence, as the open data community in Italy (@anon **Epistemic resilience means, instead, being critical of evidence, and disobeying if that saves lives or unnecessary suffering**. In the case of masks, we *do* have evidence: a makeshift mask is to a mask what a blanket it to a parachute. It is not ""better than nothing"", it is exactly the same as nothing. A makeshift hospital ward might have intensive care machines, but it risks infecting patients in nearby wards *unless air circulation is addressed seriously, with proper ventilation and filters*, which is a feature distinguishing makeshift wards from proper ones. Plus, these things might create a false sense of security – again, we have a literature on this, more from finance and from war medicine – and distract us from taking measures that, while far from optimal, are indeed ""better than nothing"". Example: isolate people at home, and send them cheap DIY ventilators or some such. Marco and Simona think that epistemic resilience for the medical community means three things. 1. **Build a trusted knowledge base** on practices to deploy in the face of the evidence we have, and that we do not. Right now, doctors are getting advice off YouTube channels, and randos on WhatsApp. Some solid stuff is there, but also people who say the government has created SARS-CoV-2 to kill all the NoVax. I think of this knowledge base as the kind of document that @anon3197437925 and @anon 2. **A lobbying effort**, informed by this knowledge, to try to get the health care system to get unstuck. 3. **A way for these doctors, nurses, etc. to stage a symbolic protest**. ""We cannot strike during an emergency, but maybe we could carry a symbol, or something."" So, they asked me if Edgeryders could help, mostly with 1. A community is assembling around them; translation efforts could be asked to Translators Without Frontiers or something. But we could host the community, and put in some editorial/community management work, maybe? Collect stories? Anybody has any thoughts, especially @anon3197437925, @anon3828707713, @anon294806887, @anon659222949 and @anon3203746736?" 2,72828,2020-03-29T16:06:39.759Z,13013,0,26,25,4,0,0,25.2,72824,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"Yes. Definitely. # Building trusted Knowledge base ## Community Journalism * Story building: Yes we can put a community journalism coordinator, plus one dedicated journalist coordinator/editor on doing interviews and editing them into stories. *I am about to put up a recruitment ad for such a role within NGI + in house copywriter - they could allocate x% of their time on this* * We could use the now.anon1577251828.eu application to create an always open room where medical people with anon1577251828 accounts can drop in and talk to one another over video chat - once you have an account you dont need to do the whole zoom setup go here bla bla bla. * Question: Where would the stories come from - would Marco and or Simona point us to people? ## Messaging App stream aggregation & upvoting * Content aggregation and upvoting: Something that could be very helpful is to have a place where people can forward content they like from different messaging apps, and then up or downvote it. The way you can share content from one whatsapp conversation into another * Possible way we could help: Develop the telegram to discourse app @anon1976898802 has been working. The way it works is that people can send a message to a bot we have on telegram. Whatever is sent to that bot pops up in a common stream. Perhaps this software can be developed so that 1) you can update it the same way via whatsapp bot 2) in this stream there is the possibility to upvote and downvote submissions. What's the link to the rough demo @anon1976898802 ? # Protest/lobbying support Two immediate things come to mind that we could help with ## Easy to do Downloadable pattern people who support the protest can print and put on their tables (make them visible for video chats) https://kioskofpiracy.org/print/ ![KopimiCutout|500x339](upload://70WDIJSHpv2Pn5ZrSJDNB5Yffwd.png) ## More complex but also doable: Digital Signature for emails " 3,72837,2020-03-30T00:06:26.245Z,13013,1,25,24,3,1,0,25.0,72824,anon659222949,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13013""] So, they asked me if Edgeryders could help, mostly with 1. A community is assembling around them; translation efforts could be asked to Translators Without Frontiers or something. But we could host the community, and put in some editorial/community management work, maybe? [/quote] I think this is an excellent idea. At which stage is this effort on the side of @anon2619552108 and @anon I am living [in the middle of a very interesting data point,](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/sweden-and-covid-19-sensible-or-suicidal/13016) seeing that Sweden has the same evidence as anyone else but has decided to swim against the current." 4,72969,2020-03-30T18:30:30.490Z,13013,0,23,22,1,0,0,9.6,72824,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,Hopefully something useful can come from this. Looks like the need is there. 5,72972,2020-03-30T18:46:33.767Z,13013,0,23,22,1,0,0,24.6,72837,anon3828707713,anon659222949,they are having a call with Alberto tomorrow so we will know more after 6,73023,2020-03-31T09:13:16.773Z,13013,1,21,20,1,0,0,59.2,72824,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"@anon2794261635 @anon3379761435 I found a fast track funding call that could be a good fit for the work above. Up to 45K Eur for Covid related projects, evaluation and response on a weekly basis Super simple appilcation process, you fill in a template that you find here and upload it in the same place: EOSC site: https://www.eoscsecretariat.eu/funding-opportunities/COVID-19-Fast-Track-Funding Summary: ![31-11_03_37|391x690](upload://8YmO8a7J9i3lcszm4O2JYDACZLZ.png)" 7,73026,2020-03-31T09:15:16.723Z,13013,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,73023,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,"@anon2619552108, @anon" 8,73072,2020-03-31T13:45:11.190Z,13013,5,18,17,3,0,0,43.6,72824,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Some further notes after talking to @anon ### Minimum viable product * The ""Coronavirus citizen defense kit"" (???) * A knowledge base on dealing with SARS-CoV-2 on the ground, debunking the various myths (including those that have been encoded into rules and regulations). * Multilingual. * With a minimal social infrastructure (someone to ask for further info to; someone who can retrieve the original contributors, etc.) * Communities mostly involved: health care workers (""go running, it's good for you""); psychologists (""let children play in parks""); lawyers (defending the rights of citizens from police abuse). ### Value proposition * A map of bad practices. Many of those have been imposed not because they make any epidemiological sense, but only because they make police repression easier. * Giving people tools to push back against bad guidelines, bad regulations, bad laws. If a cop gives me a hard time because I am running, I can quote medical evidence saying that running is good for my health, and carries almost no risk of transmitting the disease. Maybe I still get fined, but I am better equipped for my court hearing. ### Actionables: * @anon2619552108 to ask for WHO endorsement on this. * As soon as we have that (or they say no) we coordinate on doing the application that @anon3828707713 mentioned. We put some money on community managers/interviewers, running the community infrastructure? ### More info and reflections The epidemics has an epistemic dimension. Phylosophically, the idea of ""evidence-based medicine"" (or -policy, or -whatever), forgets that *evidence, in science, is not dogma*. It is *the opposite* of dogma; it comes in to change, and enrich, our way of thinking. It renegotiates the analysis of the situation with respect to the rest of reality. In an interlocked system, reality has many ways to kill you: if you shut down the economy to fight the epidemics, people might die anyway, because infrastructures fall into disrepair. It *does* make sense to weigh the health benefits of lockdown against its economic costs. This is *not* necessarily the same thing as being inhuman, or greedy. 1. Marco talks to firstline doctors, who are completely lost. 2. Simona is more focused on the mistakes made at the level of health education (what are vaccines, anon2696444391 do they operate?) and community engagement (people only see repression, and repression is the only thing there is because there was no preparedness, no participation in creating contanon2945747231ncy plans etc.). Guidelines exist (not obviously for *this* virus, but for similar hypothetical vira); community experiences also exist (Ebola), but they were not applied. 3. There is a medical level and a societal level. At the medical level, doctors take orders from bosses. At the societal level, society takes advice from doctors. Or it should. Instead, a repressive system kicks in: staying in is bad for health, but it makes police control easier. Hospital doctors, in Italy, have underwritten this idea, that has no medical grounding whatsoever. However, society pushes back: we only see repression, we do not see active work waiting for solutions, and this reduces the legitimacy of the leadership. 4. Infodemic: super high levels of noise make it really difficult to know what is true. The masks debate is exhibit A." 9,73074,2020-03-31T13:47:14.740Z,13013,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,73072,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"@anon659222949 I see a connection with FHM and more specifically medical practitioners in Sweden, e.G Akademiska? :slight_smile:" 10,73077,2020-03-31T13:57:41.081Z,13013,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,73072,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"One approach I am proposing is to do community building as network weaving, open mobilisation and structuring of info (including storytelling) as outlined here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-can-we-do-to-help-your-work-and-to-help-grow-a-network-of-mutual-aid-efforts/13011/5 Another stakeholder group (that could back the aforementioned lobbying efforts) are small businesses who are hit very hard by all this. Plus technologists that can build privacy enhancing alternatives to bad solutions currently invading our spaces. I'd put all this under democratic healthcare." 11,73078,2020-03-31T14:07:44.484Z,13013,0,16,15,1,1,0,8.2,73077,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:10, topic:13013""] democratic healthcare [/quote] Nice idea. Let's wee what @anon2619552108 and @anon" 12,73091,2020-03-31T15:14:43.001Z,13013,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,73074,anon659222949,anon3828707713,"Both of those will unfortunately be completely impossible to get in touch with for the foreseeable future, maybe in the fall, but I think they will have plenty of way bigger offers on the table. We can think about it though." 13,73162,2020-03-31T19:32:48.162Z,13013,2,16,15,1,1,0,18.2,72824,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:13013""]**Build a trusted knowledge base** on practices to deploy in the face of the evidence we have, and that we do not.[/quote] I think I'll let this topic evolve a bit more and might jump in later again. I won't have enough time to do the desk research and manual writing, but I could contribute that for a single, compact topic of interest. On the philosophical side, I have this to say about the current crisis response in Europe: [quote=""anon3197437925, post:11, topic:13026""][Regarding the crisis response, this is] what I have seen them do in Nepal after the earthquakes much better than Europeans in the pandemic: recognizing what tools and opportunities are there, and using these in a pragmatic manner. In Europe, I get the impression that most of us just don’t know anon2696444391 to respond …[/quote] People are so stuck in old rules, laws and regulations. Still think that there was substance and merit to them, while we only had them in times of peace as a means of liability negotiation between people. Technology can do so much more for us if we'd stop the bickering and lawsuits about tiny details – and a crisis is exactly for that. To throw the old rules out and do what is technically possible. Illustrative example: In Germany they were running out of ethanol to produce hand sanitizer. At the same time, there are gazillions of liters of bio-ethanol used to make E10 fuel (10% ethanol, 90% petrol). But officials declined to use that 100% ethanol because ""it does not adhere to purity standards for substances used in medicine""." 14,73188,2020-04-01T02:24:03.570Z,13013,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,73162,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,but you don't have to drink the stuff.. 15,73334,2020-04-02T07:34:31.102Z,13013,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,73072,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"Ok so we would need an additional role/work - yes to storytellers - but we also need network weavers/partnership builders that go out into the world and partner the initiative with others doing good work e.g Data & Society - to this end we can probably recruit a couple of people who are working at the EC aggregating information e.g Karel Van Der Putte at DG Grow. Here is a newsletter from Data and Society that are actually calling for partnerships around this issue: ## APRIL 1, 2020 This week we've posted new work on [health **misinformation** ] and shaped broader conversations on anon2696444391 COVID-19 is affecting the intersection of technology and society, from human and AI, to the protection and valuation of human lives* amid accelerated supply chains. For our community, we gathered better practices for **ethical reporting** on pandemics, and organized virtual power hours]) to support holistic **digital community security** while we're all hyper-online. We've also taken pause to take care of each other, and ourselves. Spot an opportunity for collaboration? Reach out to us at info[at]datasociety.net. The Data & Society team is here to help break down disciplinary silos, illuminate truths, and connect ideas. **AROUND THE INSTITUTE** * **Who Benefits from Health Misinformation?** ""A public too fragmented to collectively trust health experts can’t hold an administration accountable for its lies. The grifters and snake oil salesmen are profiting now, but the uncertainty sowed today paves way for an oppressive power to take advantage of a fragmented society much more vulnerable to misinformation in the future."" — Data & Society Affiliate **Erin McAweeney** , *Points* * **RSVP: NEW INC x Data & Society: Coping Through Precarious Work** On **Wednesday, April 8 at 5 p.m. ET / 2 p.m. PT** , we're teaming up with NEW INC for a virtual discussion about anon2696444391 **creative practices evolve during precarious times** . NEW INC members will give lightning talks about their projects at NEW INC and attendees will be invited to join the artists in a discussion about work, precarity, and art-making. Featuring members: [Foreign Objects]) , [Heidi Boisvert], [Mark Ramos], and [Ziyang Wu]. [RSVP here] * **After Supply Chain Capitalism** ""The illusion of a contractor's independence as plausible deniability and the right to be exploited by someone further up the chain needs to be undone. The insistence that dignity and life aren't as essential as efficiency and market performance needs to be undermined with a social safety net that protects all people, including and especially workers most at risk, whether faced with a pandemic or simply faced with run-of-the-mill cruelties of capitalism."" — Data & Society Affiliate **Ingrid Burringanon2863106368** , *Points* * **Pandemic Narratives** ""This is the moment for combining public health best practice with empirical research on misinformation, and to explore new ways to create public health messaging that is compelling, persuasive, and effective. It is also a moment of unprecedented mismanagement and misinformation being disseminated from the highest levels of government, and the problem requires a radically different approach to save lives and minimize harm."" — Data & Society Newsroom Outreach Lead **Smitha Khorana** , *Points* *Bonus:* **Khorana** also put together [this guide](https://datasociety.us7.list-manage.com/track/click?u=00b33d1beca407762446037f0&id=9b086f0bf6&e=9d0326f41b) for journalists on ethics and best practices for reporting on COVID-19. * **Bored Techies Being Casually Racist: Race as Algorithm** ""Race-as-algorithm in the present day is tied to the long history of creating migrant casual workers in colonial and later periods where casual labor was used to replace slave labor on colonial plantations in the British Empire, and as quick labor to reconstruct bombed-out German cities through the guest worker program. Focusing on the historical relationship between casual labor and racialization sanon2696444391s that firms that value race as a source of creative vitality remain complicit in racism against Indian tech workers within and beyond their walls."" — Data & Society Director of Research **Sareeta Amrute** , *Science, Technology, & Human Values* * **As misinformation surges, coronavirus poses AI challenge** ""'It’s very hard to use automation when you’re in an information environment where the information is always incomplete and changing,' **Robyn Caplan** , a researcher at the nonprofit Data & Society, told The Hill, about anon2696444391 shifting to automated content moderation may make the problem of misinformation worse."" — Chris Mills Rodrigo, *The Hill*
***Ping @anon294806887 re the points above on work, do you want us to get in touch with Data & Society? If yes maybe @anon320602330 can connect us? I seem to recall one of the foundation's fellows has been working with them at some point?***" 16,73362,2020-04-02T11:01:38.317Z,13013,0,15,14,1,0,0,38.0,72824,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Open letter from a few hundred Belgian health care workers: ""all the government does is surveillance"". https://www.anon738668702f.be/info/opinions/detail_covid-19-confinement-de-la-population-oui-mais-encore-que-fait-le-gouvernement?id=10470757" 17,73399,2020-04-02T14:30:30.924Z,13013,2,14,13,3,0,0,72.8,72824,anon3417686752,anon3379761435,"I was referred to this discussion by a colleague in the UK, and happy to see the discourse going on here. In the US we are confronting a collapse of our medical and public health infrastructure that would have been unimaginable 5-10 years ago. Our Centers for Disease Control & Prevention have gone so far as to recommend bandanas as being ""better than nothing"" for protection. The public is left on its own to sift through conflicting pontificating by federal and state level officials or worse yet media outlets that are fanning the flames. A trusted, vetted source of reliable information both for the medical community and the public is greatly needed." 18,73433,2020-04-02T17:45:05.272Z,13013,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,73399,anon3203746736,anon3417686752,Would you agree with a few reports I have read asserting that the current administration has politicized the CDC in the way it controls its messaging and guidelines? 19,73445,2020-04-02T18:18:36.469Z,13013,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,73433,anon3417686752,anon3203746736,"Most definitely. This politicization has taken mostly the form of taking the CDC out of its usual role of managing a situation like this. However, it has also involved controlling the messaging as you mention. Of course, this was also the case during the Bush II administration." 20,73448,2020-04-02T18:25:29.959Z,13013,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,73445,anon3203746736,anon3417686752,"I read this morning that the Dept of the Interior in 2017 reversed a ""bottom up"" alarm-sounding policy that allowed National Parks to make local decisions about staying open in a crisis. Now they have to get permission from on high. Several parks asked for permission to close a few weeks ago and were denied. I saw a recent picture taken at Zion NP where a popular trail was loaded with people all rather close to each other as if nothing was wrong. While the President is was saying there was nothing to worry about, they didn't want to make the parks look like they didn't agree. This is using public health as a political weapon." 21,73449,2020-04-02T18:26:49.476Z,13013,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,73448,anon3417686752,anon3203746736,Yes. Sad. 22,73472,2020-04-03T08:36:44.842Z,13013,0,13,12,2,0,0,12.6,73399,anon3379761435,anon3417686752,"Hello and welcome @anon3417686752! I guess @anon2619552108 is facepalming right now about the bandanas. Update: we set up a listening post to discuss some of these topics, specifically the bit about ""fight the pandemic by repression and curtailing of civil liberties"", which happens exactly under the ""better than nothing"" banner. More information at the link below. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-surveillance-pandemic-a-community-listening-session-on-emergent-post-covid-trends-from-contact-tracking-to-special-powers/13089" 23,73556,2020-04-03T23:53:18.917Z,13013,0,12,11,1,0,0,37.4,73162,anon3268513011,anon3197437925,"Another example of this would be UK breweries who have started making alcohol sanitizer, but still have to pay duty of about £20 on each litre of alcohol they brew..." 24,73557,2020-04-04T00:04:44.708Z,13013,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,73072,anon3268513011,anon3379761435,"Possibly statisticians - to help sift thru the noise of badly done statistics (usually retrospective studies), underreported deaths for a variety of confounding reasons, etc. It'd be an idea if we had an index of all the bad science that is circulating, and we could authoritatively say, 'this is rubbish for all these reasons' (for example, chloroquine is now being touted as the miracle cure, when there's no evidence it works at all actually). We could be a beacon to sanon2696444391 what is and is not true of the dozens of potential nonsense claims that keep appearing..." 25,73574,2020-04-04T11:52:15.950Z,13013,2,12,11,1,1,0,17.4,73557,anon3379761435,anon3268513011,"[quote=""anon3268513011, post:24, topic:13013""] Possibly statisticians - to help sift thru the noise of badly done statistics (usually retrospective studies), underreported deaths for a variety of confounding reasons, etc. [/quote] Excellent point about statisticians, @anon3268513011. @anon1753543892 has already written about the difficulty she and others have when dealing with the reporting of statistical results – she calls it [statistically feeling bad](/t/12845). So, we are going to be starting to look into the issue of anon2696444391 the pandemic shifts society towards tighter surveillance via policies that are presented as based on medical evidence next week, at [this event](/t/13089). You are very welcome, especially if you bring any statistical expertise with you." 26,73576,2020-04-04T12:08:12.509Z,13013,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,73574,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,have a look at this crowd - maybe worthwhile reaching out and inviting them? https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/fighting-coronavirus-a-new-infection-alarm-system-on-your-smartphone-a-b4b35e3c-6499-4487-a689-6008d8d7ecc8 27,73604,2020-04-05T06:33:56.352Z,13013,1,13,12,1,0,0,87.6,73574,anon3268513011,anon3379761435,"Thank you! Unfortunately I am no statistician. I suppose I should introduce myself. I am a medical doctor who has recently moved from UK to Italy and I am now working in northern italy. I initially got to know about anon1577251828 in 2015, when I was doing my elective at CERN and I met Nadya and Massimo, and I have known Marco for anon2373157426 some time. I was a psychiatry trainee in the UK but am now working in a 'punto di primo intervento' - basically a scaled down a&e in a rural setting. I have had a longatanding interest in TB and infection control for it and at one point coauthored a toolkit for interprofessional collaboration for TB infection control. Many of the principles of TB IC are actually transferrable to Covid, and if you want I can get into details about things I routinely see done wrong. Other than that, I am an avid nethack and d&d player... And when i am not doing that i read, play the flute, and play chess. I see that Edgeryders has grown a lot from 2015 and I am impressed :) i think we can really make a difference thanks to our... I don't know if it's an actual term, but I would say, 'open source mindset'? I hope you get what I mean. Nice to meet you all and thanks again for taking on this project! I feel we will do a lot of good. Salvo" 28,73613,2020-04-05T10:15:13.752Z,13013,1,13,12,2,0,0,47.6,72824,anon3268513011,anon3379761435,"I was reading a very interesting thread from a palliative care doctor: https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1246549341789130752?s=20 Allowing people to die with dignity and as much comfort as possible seems to be more important than ever now. Yet I don't see this topic talked about much. We (Humanity) need much more drugs for end of life care than we are currently producing, and we (doctors) need some know-anon2696444391 about palliative care to make its way to the frontline of docs who are treating covid. Do you think we (Edgeryders) should get involved in that? (should i make a new thread? How does it work?)" 29,73614,2020-04-05T10:31:44.539Z,13013,0,13,12,3,0,0,17.6,73072,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,@anon2252645440 I think this is our problem owner/ challenge for the special edition of the OCI Lab. What do you think? 30,73615,2020-04-05T10:48:30.461Z,13013,1,14,13,1,2,0,12.8,73604,anon3379761435,anon3268513011,"[quote=""anon3268513011, post:27, topic:13013""] Many of the principles of TB IC are actually transferrable to Covid, and if you want I can get into details about things I routinely see done wrong. [/quote] This would be a valuable contribution to our [Surveillance pandemic listening event](/t/13089). Are you coming? [quote=""anon3268513011, post:28, topic:13013""] Do you think we (Edgeryders) should get involved in that? (should i make a new thread? How does it work?) [/quote] You are super welcome to open a topic on Edgeryders. Ask @anon294806887, @anon3203746736 or @anon1753543892 if you need any help. @anon3828707713 could help if you are up for a more structured effort, with something called the OCI Lab." 31,73616,2020-04-05T11:33:37.045Z,13013,1,14,13,2,0,0,77.8,73615,anon3268513011,anon3379761435,"About the surveillance listening pandemic event: i woukd love to, but I am scheduled to work. Therefore, depending on whether i have patients coming in (i live and work in a rather small village of 2000 souls up in the mountains, and these days patients tend come in only when they really must), i may or may not be able to participate for some or all of it, if that's okay. I would be up for creating a more structured effort. I can think of two areas that we could look into: one is as mentioned palliative care, another is mental health care (i was a psychiatry trainee in the UK up until i left the country) for those affected by covid/in isolation. I am thinking about: - seriously unwell psychiatric patients who are kept in a psych hospital against their will, and at very high risk of catching Covid there, as it involves cramming lots of people into a shared space with minimal ventilation (psych hospitals typically have shut or minimally opening windows to stop people from jumping off them, or escaping - and an open window policy is the most effective zero-cost action to prevent TB transmission via droplets ), cared for by nurses who are great at psychiatry but have anon2488317424 to no medical expertise depending on different countries' training programmes for them (and doctors who are psychiatrists, not infection control experts) as well as other factors and complications caused by mental illness itself about which i can go into more detail on perhaps in a separate topic; - less seriously unwell psychiatric patients who can manage their life at home but need regular contact with psychiatric services. - people with no previous psychiatric illness who are at risk of developing one when forced into prolonged isolation Sorry for throwing a lot of thoughts. This project / the problem of covid deals with an unprecedented level of complexity on many levels. I hope to be able to help with a few of these..." 32,73618,2020-04-05T11:55:33.712Z,13013,1,14,13,1,1,0,27.8,73616,anon3379761435,anon3268513011,"[quote=""anon3268513011, post:31, topic:13013""] i may or may not be able to participate for some or all of it, if that’s okay [/quote] Of course, @anon3268513011. Best effort. No pressure. :slight_smile: [quote=""anon3268513011, post:31, topic:13013""] I would be up for creating a more structured effort. [/quote] More power to you. I think @anon3828707713 and @anon2252645440 might be able to guide you into bootstrapping some kind of early stage project. Am I wrong, ladies?" 33,73619,2020-04-05T11:56:20.620Z,13013,0,14,13,2,0,0,12.8,73618,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,Not wrong. Am chatting with @anon2252645440 about this now. 1,71710,2020-03-19T02:02:26.336Z,12885,0,14,13,24,0,0,152.8,71710,anon3197437925,anon3197437925,"Everyone is called on to provide ideas for anti-pandemic tools and solutions until (Fri) 2020-03-20 12:00 CET, and also everyone is called on to work in the 48 hours afterwards to make these ideas a reality. As usual, hackathons focus on IT software and hardware. And as usual in hackathons, I expect most ideas and products to get a good start there and gather a team but not be anon2373157426 finished after the hackathon, so work will likely continue. Also, all the results will be open source. Also they provide [a list of resources](https://wirvsvirushackathon.org/ressourcen/) that were developed during similar hackathons that happened in Esanon2863106368ia and Poland already. The website is in German, but my guess is that you can safely ignore the language barrier because this is a crisis and the old rules and expectations went out the window. So, read the website in Google Translate and provide your ideas in English in case you can't write in German. The link: https://wirvsvirushackathon.org/" 2,71713,2020-03-19T05:55:51.546Z,12885,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,71710,anon3828707713,anon3197437925,"hey, can you tell if people have to be physically present in the room to be part of it?" 3,71728,2020-03-19T10:36:27.277Z,12885,1,13,12,3,0,0,37.6,71713,anon3197437925,anon3828707713,"No, there's no ""physical"". It's an online hackathon: >Der #WirVsVirus Online Hackathon ist der digitale Raum, […] which says ""The #WeVsVirus online hackathon is the digital room, […]""." 4,71729,2020-03-19T10:42:51.278Z,12885,0,13,12,2,0,0,27.6,71728,anon3828707713,anon3197437925,can you repost here? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/do-you-want-to-join-our-covid19-community-response-a-breakdown-of-anon1577251828-activities-roles-tasks-and-workflows/12879/4?u=anon3828707713 5,71764,2020-03-19T14:01:14.507Z,12885,2,12,11,1,0,0,32.4,71710,anon2197402769,anon3197437925,"A shame that the platform relies on various external (to the EU unsure, besides of slack) services, of which one is down. I'd like to add a ""Challenge"" to the discussion over there, which is increased dependence on digital infrastructure in the hands of non-public institutions (yeah, my favorite topic, Open Source). I wish I could join the hackathon to throw some lights to exactly that problem. We shouldnt ""attack"" public problems (only) with business/investor mindsets. Solutions should be in the hands of the people (not meaning that skilled people shouldnt be also able to make a living out of providing, maintaining and applying them)." 6,71769,2020-03-19T14:11:35.393Z,12885,1,10,9,1,1,0,12.0,71764,anon1753543892,anon2197402769,"[quote=""anon2197402769, post:5, topic:12885""] of which one is down. [/quote] which are you referring to?" 7,71770,2020-03-19T14:16:26.501Z,12885,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,71769,anon2197402769,anon1753543892,"https://www.guaana.com/ (where one could contribute ""Challenges""). The other platform used is typeform (which is actually within EU legislation). And because they had to be quick I assume that they kind of use every tool at hand (slack as well)." 8,71788,2020-03-19T15:05:56.838Z,12885,1,9,8,5,1,0,61.8,71764,anon3379761435,anon2197402769,"[quote=""anon2197402769, post:5, topic:12885""] I’d like to add a “Challenge” to the discussion over there, which is increased dependence on digital infrastructure in the hands of non-public institutions (yeah, my favorite topic, Open Source). [/quote] Hell yeah, @anon2197402769. We are having that discussion in Edgeryders. A year ago, the decision for our specific set of needs (collaboration + permission management, we were so open that we had hundreds of people accessing our internal material every week) was: ""Google Drive Enterprise for now, let's keep an eye on OS solutions like CryptPad, OwnCloud etc."". Now would be a good time to stop paying Google and give the money to a European SME relying on OSS. But it is also a bad time to break our processes :frowning:" 9,72354,2020-03-24T14:46:04.458Z,12885,2,8,7,1,0,0,16.6,71710,anon1753543892,anon3197437925,"@anon3197437925 and @anon2197402769, did you participate? How was your experience of the hackathon? My brother participated and said he had anon2373157426 a few problems with access and connection." 10,72377,2020-03-24T18:04:31.317Z,12885,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,72354,anon2197402769,anon1753543892,I couldnt participate. Have not yet checked their results. 11,72408,2020-03-24T23:59:36.706Z,12885,1,8,7,1,0,0,41.6,72354,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"I participated and yes, there were initially some issues with connectivity. It became much better after the initial surge of activity. We learn from this that Slack will make your computer run hot when used by 27,000 simultaneous users in your workspace :D As for results, there is [a randomized playlist with all the 1139 videos](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYGe9q9_Jo3A0WfDG2QgMchgpUjAyzPty), each resulting from one project in the hackathon. Enjoy!" 12,73158,2020-03-31T18:49:45.833Z,12885,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,71788,anon192389820,anon3379761435,"That's great, happy to hear that! I was watching a [webinar](https://youtu.be/5lxwLHRKaB0?t=1174) with Naomi Klein who reminded about the importance of redundancies and non-corporate communication infrastructure in place if we are to rethink what (climate) activism will look like in the near-term future." 13,73548,2020-04-03T16:20:59.174Z,12885,1,7,6,1,1,0,11.4,72408,anon2197402769,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:11, topic:12885""] As for results, there is [a randomized playlist with all the 1139 videos ](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYGe9q9_Jo3A0WfDG2QgMchgpUjAyzPty), each resulting from one project in the hackathon. Enjoy! [/quote] Seems to be gone." 14,73558,2020-04-04T00:24:31.483Z,12885,0,7,6,1,1,0,36.4,73548,anon192389820,anon2197402769,"[quote=""anon2197402769, post:13, topic:12885""] Seems to be gone. [/quote] Here's a [playlist](https://wirvsvirushackathon.devpost.com/submissions) of the 20 awarded projects, and you can find all 1000+ project submissions on [devpost](https://wirvsvirushackathon.devpost.com/submissions)." 1,55630,2019-06-24T16:29:37.380Z,10220,0,13,12,6,0,0,47.6,55630,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Every year (going way back), venture capitalist Mary Meeker publishes a set of stats and data highlighting trends for the year. It's a big report with a lot of data, stats, comments, quotes - more than 300 pages. She has just released her 2019 report: https://www.bondcap.com/report/itr19/#view/2" 2,55631,2019-06-24T16:35:01.671Z,10220,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,55630,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Here is the intro/summary of what is in the report: ""We use data to tell stories of business-related trends we focus on. We hope others take the ideas, build on them & make them better. At 3.8B, the number of Internet users comprises more than half the world’s population. When markets reach mainstream, new growth is harder to find as evinced by declining new smartphone shipments in 2018. While E-Commerce continues to gain share vs. physical retail, growth rates are slowing. While Internet advertising growth is solid & innovation is healthy, there are areas where customer acquisition costs may be rising to unsustainable levels. While Internet user growth is slowing, global innovation & competition continue to drive product improvements, new types of usage & monetization – especially in areas of digital video, voice, wearables, on-demand + local services & traditionally underserved markets. Outside of USA, we focus on especially high growth & innovation in data-driven / direct fulfillment & financial services. We highlight massive global usage changes related to the evolution of images & interactive gaming as communications tools & the broad emergence of freemium businesses at scale. The rapid rise of gathered / analyzed digital data is often core to the holistic success of the fastest growing & most successful companies of our time around the world. Context-rich data can help businesses provide consumers with increasingly personalized products & services that can often be obtained at lower prices & delivered more efficiently. This, in turn, can drive higher customer satisfaction. Better data-driven tools can improve the ability for consumers to communicate directly & indirectly with businesses & regulators. Core constituents (consumers / businesses / regulators) are increasingly drinking from a data firehose & management challenges continue to rise for all parties. Broad awareness of challenges (& related vigorous / heated debates) can be the first step in driving change. Consumers are aware of concerns about Internet usage overload & are taking steps to reduce usage – leading USA-based Internet platforms have rolled out tools to help monitor usage & social media usage growth appears to be decelerating following a period of strong growth. Privacy & problematic content concerns are also top-of-mind & are following similar patterns. Owing to social media amplification, reveals / actions / reactions about events can occur quickly – resulting in both good & bad outcomes. In markets where online real-time rating systems exist, accountability can be improved vs. offline options as consumers & businesses interact directly while regulators can also benefit. Rapidly expanding connectivity has helped amplify voices of good & bad actors. This has brought new focus to an age-old challenge for regulators around the world – finding the most effective ways to amplify good & minimize bad, often resulting in different regional interpretations & strategies. As Internet systems become increasingly sophisticated, data-rich & mission critical, so has the opportunity for cyber attacks. We are in a new era of cyber security where technology issues are increasingly intermixed with international diplomacy & defense. We focus on the impact of the Internet on work (via on-demand services & remote options), education & healthcare – the materiality of current trends imply inflections are occurring. We update USA trending around government finances & the importance of immigration to the technology sector. The Hillhouse Capital team provides insights into China – the largest market of Internet users & a leader in innovation / scale.""" 3,55633,2019-06-24T17:07:23.142Z,10220,1,9,8,2,0,0,16.8,55631,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"A few items from the report: Social media use globally is flattening and growth has slowed way down. Europe has 15% of global internet users, North America has 9% and Asia Pacific has 53% Spotify is the only European company in the Top 30 Internet Market Cap list, and it is #30. "" ...privacy [concerns] are a headwind for [Facebook] in 2019. It's one of the factors that's contributing to our expected deceleration of revenue growth throughout the year. You've got regulatory – which was GDPR in 2018... the regulatory arc will be longer-term in playing out...Platforms like iOS are making bigger pushes in privacy & that has the potential impact... then changes that we're making ourselves...we've elected to rollout GDPR-type controls globally...later this year, we'll be launching Clear History, which will also affect our ability to do third-party targeting."" - David Wehner – CFO, Facebook, 2/19" 4,55644,2019-06-24T20:10:35.797Z,10220,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,55633,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Survey of Retail Customers (2018 Accenture survey that included a lot of European responses): 91% Prefer Brands that Provide Personalized Offers / Recommendations 83% Willing to Passively Share Data in Exchange for Personalized Experiences 74% Willing to Actively Share Data in Exchange for Personalized Experiences" 5,55713,2019-06-25T21:13:37.411Z,10220,2,8,7,1,0,0,31.6,55630,anon3197437925,anon3203746736,"I clicked through some slides in the report as well. The numbers are really interesting, actually … as in, Google and Facebook had 40% and 90% ad revenue growth, respectively, from the beginning of 2017 to today. I didn't really think that the ad market was growing at all anymore … I was feeling a kind of disgust though, about anon2696444391 these venture capitalist types are pushing for and cheering for everything that drives consumption. Instead, if we want the world to be naturally beautiful, full of life and livable in 100 years from now, we quickly need to arrive at the point where everyone feels guilt and disgust when consuming something without necessity. As in, feeling to have no moral right to consume. So anon2696444391 will people have fun when they don't consume for fun anymore? Oh, they will manage. They might have to learn the art of frugal hedonism or something along these lines. (That's actually a book and [here are some sample chapters](https://www.frugalhedonism.com/taster-chapters/).)" 6,55715,2019-06-26T00:47:11.881Z,10220,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,55713,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,Yes you must read these reports understanding the lens she uses. 7,57164,2019-07-25T20:41:09.721Z,10220,1,7,6,1,1,0,11.4,55713,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:5, topic:10220""] So anon2696444391 will people have fun when they don’t consume for fun anymore? [/quote] This question is deeper than it seems. I started writing a reaction, but then I realized I really don't know much about anon2696444391 to frame the problem, and I deleted it." 8,57165,2019-07-25T20:49:50.606Z,10220,2,7,6,1,0,0,31.4,57164,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"In this context, @anon https://twitter.com/leashless/status/1152768373106925568" 9,57166,2019-07-25T20:55:26.687Z,10220,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,57165,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"i read it, but honestly it did not seem groundbreaking to me. When I was in university (1980s) marketing types were already crooning about ""oh, we don't sell products, we sell whole ways of liiiiife!""." 10,57190,2019-07-26T13:21:51.204Z,10220,0,5,4,1,0,0,21.0,57165,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,He does make some interesting observations about tools and skills. 11,73489,2020-04-03T09:36:02.007Z,10220,2,4,3,1,0,0,15.8,55630,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,"What do you think anon2696444391 the current situation will influence the report this year? How has the focus of conversations and the perception as well as the growing of tracking data. Do you guys think the anon2863106368e of the report will be the same?" 12,73539,2020-04-03T14:52:37.466Z,10220,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,73489,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"Hard to predict of course but the tech sector is taking a huge beating like everyone else. Maybe not Google and Zoom, although I imagine ad revenue will be way down. That tells me that Google/Alphabet will just get into deeper personal surveillance." 13,73540,2020-04-03T15:23:49.544Z,10220,0,3,2,1,0,0,5.6,73489,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"And the situation is not stopping tech companies from trying to rip out whatever regulatory framework impedes their profits.. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/technology/virus-tech-lobbyists-gains.html" 1,66708,2019-12-02T18:21:22.806Z,12084,1,25,24,22,0,0,150.0,66708,anon995479489,anon995479489,"Hi, I'm Daveed. My most important identifier is Papa. Since BS and MS in Engineering at Stanford, I have had leadership roles in startups, nonprofits, and social enterprises in emergent fields. As a ""Shift Shaper,"" my work focuses on collective wisdom and altering systems of consciousness for positive impact. I worked on decentralization in early 2000s focusing on energy, food, and water and on building local economies. Now my focus is decentralizing knowledge & building collective intelligence with my startup Bridgit. We make the entire web into a collaborative research platform. As a long-time Internet researcher, I have had no system for making sure the information I find online is readily available when I or someone else needs it. I've dreamed of a system that reveals previous research related to one's focus of attention. Imagine, down every rabbit hole, nuggets of insight and innovation. [Bridgit](https://bridgit.io) is a crowd-mapped Google Earth for online information. Bridgit users build online knowledge maps of ideas & the relationships between them. Thus providing shared context for collaboration and communication without coordination. Our mission is to connect all the information in the world into a universal knowledge map that can be accessed through the web or in the future through virtual experience, thus creating the possibility of ubiquitous context. We believe that if we want a democratic future, we must move towards an economy that is based on supporting rather than capturing attention. Our beachhead is emerging ideas. The problem is many groundbreaking ideas experience an uphill battle which delays their impact for years if not decades. Our platform enables stakeholders to build knowledge maps & shared context for issues that matter; seeing ideas in context makes them more understandable and actionable. Bridgit enables insight, debate & discovery on every webpage by making the entire web into a collaborative research platform. Our browser overlay enables researchers to control, validate, organize & monetize their data. Advanced tagging enables the #OverWeb, a Trust Layer over the webpage. The #OverWeb is a Secure Social Ecosystem that generates valuable semantic, intent, & sentiment data. We use AI to assist in creating/validating content and neutralizing bad actors. Our platform supports a new category - Massive Online Research Collaborations - that enable researchers to build knowledge together without coordination as well as Bridgit Apps which enable organizations to expose their information and application functionality wherever relevant on the web. Check us out at https://bridgit.io!" 2,66745,2019-12-03T01:39:17.402Z,12084,1,20,19,1,1,0,14.0,66708,anon3203746736,anon995479489,"[quote=""anon995479489, post:1, topic:12084""] Bridgit [/quote] A Google search sanon2696444391s a number of things with that name. Which one is yours?" 3,66746,2019-12-03T02:37:53.036Z,12084,1,20,19,1,0,0,29.0,66745,anon995479489,anon3203746736,"Hi John! Can't believe I forgot that in the original post. https://bridgit.io" 4,66747,2019-12-03T06:01:21.283Z,12084,0,19,18,1,0,0,23.8,66746,anon3591841007,anon995479489,"Interesting concepts. But, as far as I can see, a centralized proprietary platform. Quite the opposite of distributed and free software or open source. So, good luck, but not for me." 5,66946,2019-12-05T04:37:27.080Z,12084,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,66708,anon995479489,anon995479489,"@anon3591841007, your assumptions about what we are creating are incorrect. We are NOT building a centralized platform. While it is true that we have not built in the DLT aspect of our system yet, we will launch with a DLT in place. (We are 10 months out from the planned launch and plan to remain fluid as to the specific implementation until Q2.) Also, we will have open source aspects to our project. We will not open source aspects of the system that could enable one of the Internet Platforms to put us out of business before we get started. Good luck" 6,67290,2019-12-11T02:13:18.380Z,12084,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,66708,anon3500979459,anon995479489,"This looks really interesting. I submitted to the alpha. I definitely do think that this needs to be made open, at least eventually. This would help to make it grow larger and also stop any one platform from controlling this information." 7,67370,2019-12-11T16:45:16.135Z,12084,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,67290,anon995479489,anon3500979459,"@anon3500979459, thanks for the feedback. We are using the annotation standard and JSON-LD. For this to create real value wrt collective intelligence, we need to ensure the following: 1) All bridges have integrity, meaning that the relationship between the two content snippets are correct. We envision a validation process for this, whereby three approved validators have to agree that the relationship is correct. 2) The system does not get filled up with fake accounts and bots. Without integrity, there is no value to a knowledge map. I'm open to conversations about anon2696444391 this can be achieved in an open framework." 8,67991,2019-12-29T14:12:02.100Z,12084,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,66708,anon1753543892,anon995479489,"Hello @anon995479489, maybe have a look at worlbrain and anon2696444391 they connect knowledge: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/introducing-oliver-worldbrain-io-memex-and-storex-democratising-knowledge/10157" 9,71122,2020-03-10T09:51:15.985Z,12084,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,66708,anon1753543892,anon995479489,ping @anon2252645440 is this relevant for OCI? 10,71345,2020-03-14T19:54:14.135Z,12084,1,13,12,3,1,0,22.6,67991,anon912137580,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:8, topic:12084""] Hello @anon995479489, maybe have a look at worlbrain and anon2696444391 they connect knowledge [/quote] I'd also recommend checking [Veeo](https://www.veeo.io/). Similar value propositions and a very friendly and welcoming team of creators!" 11,71562,2020-03-17T19:21:04.136Z,12084,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,66708,anon3203746736,anon995479489,Yo @anon995479489 - anon2696444391 is the corona virus affecting your project and your work these days? 12,71603,2020-03-18T00:10:20.780Z,12084,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,71562,anon995479489,anon3203746736,"Hey John We are starting a mapping project for COVID19. The COVID19 Mapping project aims to crowdmap the online information ecology for the COVID19 virus including second and third order effects of the virus. The project utilizes Bridgit ‘s mapping capability to catalyze a Massive Online Research Collaboration on COVID19. Massive Online Research Collaborations HELP researchers connect and interact with other researchers on any webpage WITHOUT any coordination EVEN IF they don't know each other or speak the same language WITH a self-generating interactive knowledge map. AI will monitor the knowledge map and send alerts about emerging threats, false news, and misinformation. Outcomes of the project include a first-generation interactive knowledge map, a shared context for collaboration and communication, a cohesive community, and faster better answers that accelerate insight, innovation, and learning. Register online at https://bridgit.io" 13,71604,2020-03-18T00:11:02.837Z,12084,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,71345,anon995479489,anon912137580,Thanks! Veeo is cool. Would love to collab with them. Do you anyone there? 14,71606,2020-03-18T00:20:37.082Z,12084,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,71603,anon3203746736,anon995479489,Ambitious project. Got any screenshots you can share so we can see what this kind of mapping might look like? 15,71609,2020-03-18T01:05:22.601Z,12084,2,9,8,1,0,0,46.8,71606,anon995479489,anon3203746736,"Hey John Here is a mockup of anon2696444391 the overlay looks ! This is what the map view looks like: [10%20PM|690x390](upload://l1ycM0GFxwlWHA8jdhvrb7eEwGi.png) ! This is anon2696444391 bridges assist in sense making. [23%20PM|690x392](upload://uMcVOxwdHrBAbQ26uZanon3705902363jfPzgz.png) It may more sense to see the entire deck: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1TqwKo7m8Lr7AXT4aNhMBT83zK_U6iSB42BT5LqQzRv4/edit?usp=sharing Would love any feedback. p.s., You have a most interesting background" 16,72030,2020-03-21T20:32:48.100Z,12084,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,71604,anon912137580,anon995479489,I've been in touch with the Veeo founders. I'll let them know of this conv :slight_smile: 17,72037,2020-03-21T22:42:17.494Z,12084,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,72030,anon995479489,anon912137580,Awesome. Thanks. 18,72372,2020-03-24T17:40:05.167Z,12084,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,71609,anon3203746736,anon995479489,So it depends on consistent and widespread tagging? It's either that or machine learning I guess. 19,72607,2020-03-26T22:08:38.530Z,12084,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,72372,anon995479489,anon3203746736,Both. Machine learning can suggest tags and connections. But there will be a human-in-the-loop for the foreseeable future. 20,72618,2020-03-27T07:49:52.743Z,12084,2,9,8,1,0,0,16.8,71609,anon3828707713,anon995479489,"ping @anon3197080741 have a look at @anon995479489 's work above, perhaps it might be helpful?" 21,72726,2020-03-27T16:44:11.942Z,12084,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,72607,anon3203746736,anon995479489,"Back in the 90s I started and managed the first large news website (sfgate.com). We had the challenge of supplying readers with news from multiple sources (2 newspapers, the AP feed, a TV station, original content and a couple of other sources). None of these orgs or feeds communicated with each other in any way, and the ""slugs"" or metadata, were always peculiar to their one source. ]We wanted to present the news according to what it was about, not just where it cam from. This was especially important with the limited screen real estate on a computer, plus Google had just started out and was nothing like the behemoth we have known for the past 20 yrs. Our only meaningful option was machine learning. What we did was create with the newspaper librarian a news category system and I hired her then on the side to tag a large number of current stories for a period of time so we could get a good sample. But for machine learning, that is not enough. One has to have a large amount of data to run it against in order, in this case, for the machine to decide what a news story was really about with any meaningful accuracy. The bigger the sample, the more accurate the result. But, since we were at a newspaper with electronic archives going back decades, we were able to accomplish it so that our system was highly accurate. It was the first - and only - one of its kind. Before Google News or the Apple News utility, we were supplying anyone interested with a lot of daily news that you could see either by source or subject. This is a big reason why we ""punched above our weight"" in the news world. Yes the New York Times within a few years had 4 times the traffic we did, but they spent 20 times the money to get there. But it was only possible to get that accuracy by basing it on a huge - truly huge - amount of data. Without that, you have to tag." 22,72758,2020-03-27T22:58:54.620Z,12084,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,72618,anon3197080741,anon3828707713,"Okay, Thank U very much" 23,72823,2020-03-29T14:47:53.082Z,12084,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,72726,anon995479489,anon3203746736,"Thanks for the context John. Wow that's amazing. We're going for what consider is next stage of evolution of information ecology. The first stage was just pages connected by links. Then the Internet Platforms emerged and became hubs, and guided the commerical Internet into the Attention economy. As sites monetized their linking capability and content, they virtually stopped using external links. This reduced the connectedness of information on the internet. The impulse for web surfing is now satisfied by social media feeds. Rather than exploring, we are ""feeding"" on information that is being served by the machine learning algorithms of the Internet platform. IMO the next phase is collective knowledge maps that weave together the online information ecology with relationships. This will open up discovery orders of magnitude faster than search, context for any idea on the web, and support for knowing what to believe on the web." 24,72968,2020-03-30T18:28:52.223Z,12084,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,72823,anon3203746736,anon995479489,"> collective knowledge maps that weave together the online information ecology with relationships How would this look, more or less? How would you classify the relationships?" 25,73424,2020-04-02T16:45:57.822Z,12084,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,72618,anon995479489,anon3828707713,"Thanks @anon3828707713! Hope you are well. @anon3197080741, Here is the slide deck for Bridgit: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Y8U_Jlp1pHy8A8Xe68J3mRNrR57ZDw3vpxMAve_zsig/edit?usp=sharing Here is the slide deck for our COVID19 Info Mapping project: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1TqwKo7m8Lr7AXT4aNhMBT83zK_U6iSB42BT5LqQzRv4/edit?usp=sharing I am happy to have a ZOOM call." 26,73425,2020-04-02T16:53:29.048Z,12084,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,73424,anon3828707713,anon995479489,"im not anon2373157426 here yet, but not totally awful either. You? " 27,73437,2020-04-02T18:02:55.761Z,12084,0,7,6,1,0,0,36.4,72968,anon995479489,anon3203746736,"Hi John Here is a better mockup that we have put together recently: ![Researcher%20generated%20context|478x268](upload://4PvfnG8lM5mvqhUEVcl0g0v8sLl.gif) Does that help?" 1,68375,2020-01-08T11:40:40.677Z,12322,2,12,11,15,0,0,147.4,68375,anon1223735027,anon1223735027,"Hi all, I'm a sanon1537101702te person around here, just orbiting every once in a while (just made an account). But @anon2682865457 recently interviewed me and part of her gravity encouraged me to introduce myself. Ok, enough with space metaphors. I'm a researcher at the university of Aarhus in Denmark, looking (critically) at sociotechnical systems, I'm also a supporter and big user of FLOSS, and try to include it in all my projects/teaching/etc. Most of my work is at [pablov.me](http://pablov.me/). Among other things, I'm interested in new collaborative digital efforts (social and infrastructural), very much like the Edgeryders. In our interview, we talk about this, utopias, and decentralization (link to the audio and transcript from our interview is below, although I recommend to hear it, since the transcript has a sea of typos : ) Godspeed! ### Interview: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/podcast-zenna-interviews-pablo-velasco/11052 ### Transcript: Zenna: Welcome to the third episode of the Edgeryders podcast. Today we're talking to Pablo Velasco. He's an assistant professor at Aarhaus University. And you have a history, at least with your PhD, on researching blockchain? Pablo: Yes. Zenna: And currently, what's your focus? Pablo: I still research blockchain to some degree because that's what I'm known for in the academic world. But I'm also interested in decentralized web in general, and automation processes in general. Especially creative automation processes. Zenna: Yeah. So we haven't had this conversation yet in private. I look forward to having that one too about the decentralized web. But to start off, I'm really curious about what journey brought you to wanting to study blockchain. How does it begin? And was there a societal perspective to this? Pablo: Yes, that's my, my my approach always. Like, politics and social elements of technology, in this case blockchain. The first thing is that I started studying in my very early years, electrical engineering, because I really much it was very much into computers, technology and that kind of stuff. I was building my own computers. And I started that career. And then at some point, I started reading philosophy, I started reading Nietzsche, and I was still kind of young. Zenna: Which one? Pablo: This was the posthumous writings, so like a bunch of separate non order writings. And I got really engaged with that. So I left... Zenna: What ideas got you engaged with that? Pablo: I think it was more the type of questioning, because in electrical engineering, you will have very static ways to think about the world. Yeah, I was more pragmatic, more utilitarian. And these were questions about existence and why are we here? And what who questions are power, for example, right? So at some point that became more interesting for me to pursue to some degree. So I applied to a philosophy place in a modern University. And I got accepted. So I did, I made that jump. So technology always seemed like sub subterranean to some degree to my further background. Yeah. And then later, when I finish my master, I was still in philosophy, very metaphysics question actually. And I started using Linux, which I always I always have the tingle of it. It's been about 10 years now, since it started Linux and I was very driven by this idea kind of community enabled, instead of business capitalist kind of ideology behind it. So I was very much into it. So when I finish my master, I start looking for technology again, but always from this social perspective. So Linux was like that. The jumping port. Yeah. And then I have to select something to study there was kind of on that avenue. And I cared about Bitcoin at that moment. That was 2012-13. So it was already there, but still not on a mainstream level. And I thought, well, this is this was a great case study, right, because it's about decentralizing and making, building a system from a community. Zenna: Okay, so you mentioned a word right there that I think is very interesting to also find out what it means to you. Because it's a word that is used a lot recently. But it has a lot of different meanings. So ""communities"" is one, I think most people have a similar sense of that one. But: decentralized. What does decentralized mean to you from a more society perspective, as you said, like technology is a anon2488317424 bit easier to discern what's decentralized, because the average take on what decentralized means, but societely, what does that mean for you? Is that a power question? Is that a community question? Is that a structural question? Pablo: I think it's definitely a structural one in terms of hierarchy. Right. So political systems. Most historical political systems have have been based in strong hierarchies. So yeah, I think you have a decentralization leans towards something that is distributed in a different way. But it's still it's kind of blurry, because, yes, I think it's a word that is used too much. Like a buzzword it has currency, but it's rarely defined, in part because it's difficult. Right. And I think it's very interesting that you mentioned not technology, but social because I think a lot of projects tend to mixed those two, and you kind of are confused which one they are talking about. Right. And it happened. I mean, my research was many bitcoins during my PhD. And there was a struggle for the centralization, but most of the time, it was meant socially, whatever that meant. But it was enacted technologically. So there was a like a gap, a gap. Yeah, like, almost, I'm missing the word, but a bit of psychotic difference in between those split. Yes. So what I will say is that you don't necessarily have to look on technological advancements to think about some sort of decentralized structures, right? A lot of communities and working environments not a lot, a few, a few exist. They exist. And they don't necessarily need a technological medium to exist. Right. Zenna: And you mentioned that to me like co ops. Yes. Or community run daycare. Pablo: So yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think the co-op is the great example. Where systems of power are some degree decentralized. Right. In in more specific political examples, the Zapatistas in Mexico is not decentralized, per se, still like a representational system to some degree, but it makes a lot, it puts a lot of emphasis on having discussions from the grass roots and finding consensus from the grassroots before, instead of, someone deciding. Zenna: it's where the masses of power are located in a society, yeah, yeah. community or in a some cases technology. Yes, yes. And that's a very interesting thing that you mentioned that, because I've felt that a lot myself actually where it's been a difficult path to maneuver between the decentralized webs and the blockchain cryptocurrency world, because they'll both use the same terminology of decentralization. I think I've seen recently that ""distributed systems"" is a term that's used often and like the decentralized distributed realms more maybe to differentiate from the only technological aspect that goes with the decentralized. I don't know, but it was a really interesting thought that I'd never put down so concretely before in my own head. Yeah. So thank you. Pablo: If I could say a bit more about that. Another thing that I think we're putting in the table is that - and I carry these from a guy a researcher called David Colombia, Columbia a few years ago in a conference - is that there's like an assumption that decentralization is good and better and an improvement. And I believe most of the times it is, but he questioned that. He was like, Yes, but why? Why are we assuming that that's that's an improvement? Right? So I don't have an answer for that actually. But I think it's important to ask not only anon2696444391 do we decentralize things, but also like, why are we Why should we decentralized certain things aren't and maybe not not everything right. Zenna: And it's a highly politically subjective perspective probably too. I'd imagine that most people who also promote decentralization also promote the more liberal I guess it's called, of the political compass style. Pablo: Yes, the more libertarian approach, they will say that, that will also be very much in favor of a kind of decentralization that is not the same as the co-op, right? Not exactly. And in in that sense. There are cool projects like the and I researcher that gathers modern cooperative projects. And he calls like platform corporative activism. Zenna: Cool. Pablo: So it's like, but the emphasis on deck operatives and anon2696444391 technology helps them, but not the other way around. Right? Yeah. Zenna: Cool. I'm going to ask you about that afterwards. So, I wanted to bring this back, though, because you mentioned that you found blockchain during 2012. And you started your PhD writing about it. And before we started this conversation, you gave me a tidbit, which was also the term ""utopia"", which you mention has been played a big role for you and your writings. Specifically, you mentioned the differences between utopias. Does this is also tie into decentralization? Are they weaved together? Pablo: I think they are, at least in their ambiguity. Yeah. I mean, I haven't worked very publicly on the concept we talking about, but that was a narrative argument that was in my PhD dissertation for sure. Part of the narrative it was it was like, and it was applied to each of the different meanings of utopia, One is: Why does there no place in the says that a non physical place or non existing place, right, so a lot of that is about cyberspace, the, the inner we inherited from the 90s. And that kind of stayed still there. That cyberspace is in office. Yes, exactly. So yeah, and not even physical, but like a no-space. Let's call it like that. Yeah, there's that tanon2945747231 of utopia that comes from from from before. There is also the the idea of a place that is to be achieved. So something that has to come to be yet. And that that's what I think decentralization is really tied to it because it's also like something will happen. And when it happens, things are gonna be different. And we cannot know and if it's utopia, it'll be different in a good way. Yes. There is also the utopia that is not meant to be reachable, right? There no place that the moment you reach it is no longer the no-place. Right? It's it becomes the place. I know. It's it's a bit cryptic, to some degree, but utopia is also something that it's always in the idea and remains in the idea. Zenna: And I think it can't really exist in reality, because reality is never utopia. Pablo: Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of the the use of of it. Not something like negative right is the use of it. Zenna: And these three levels is something to aim for. Pablo: Yes, exactly. Yeah. And I think there's three levels of different kinds of utopia. You see them in, in different ways in in, in decentralization-driven projects, right. That's the way I use it, at least in my in my work. Zenna: That ties very well into the narratives that are happening with the solar punk movement as well. Pablo: Yeah. But I think it's important to separate which one is which, right, which one is it's it works as an ideology in a good sense. And which one is more elusive and more... Zenna: Beautifying. Pablo: Beautifying? Zenna: Yeah, like creating a utopia, image - a utopian image in the sense that in ""1984"" They used a Peace Institute instead of War. Yeah. It's like beautifying the world or utopia-fying. Yeah, that's fascinating. And then that also becomes a question of, is it subjective or not. Pablo: Oof! You ask me questions like that, and yes my background is philosophy... but I will say that part part of the... subjective is maybe an important word here because it kind of separates..It is not individual. Like subjective is not necessarily individual, right, which is the kind of more Silicon Valley I will say, oriented idea, individuals that are mediated by technology and that's a good thing in itself. And I think this, the other kind of more complex idea for a subject is a subject that is not an individual. It's a subject in a community, for example, that is made a subject because it's in a community and there's where you have the co-op more linked. So when you ask me if it's subjective, I immediately think of which kind of subject. Zenna: Is it a community subject or is it an individual subject. While we were talking about communities and Silicon Valley, it brought me into something I'm just curious to ask you and see your take on because I've been pondering it in my own head and I have not come to a conclusion yet. The topic is DAOs: decentralized auanon2863106368omous organizations. And from my perspective, it's been curious because I've heard a lot of people mention DAOs that was of course, and, and tokenization of organizations in order for automating them, and with the subject in this case would be for the community or for the individual to speak. That's my own thought pattern around DAOs. Yes. Have you been thinking about DAOs? Is that like, as a part of your realm and studying blockchain? Pablo: I mean, it is there of course because it's it's a topic that...It's around. I haven't written or thought specifically about that. But I think because in great part I related it with the DAO kind of attempt and failure from from a few years ago, right. But I think tokenization it's a topic that is closer to where I have been thinking. And one of my issues actually, with about blockchain projects, is that they tokenize. I mean, a lot of the early blockchain designs, they were based on tokenization. Right on a production of units. That was similar to production of economic unit before it. So token: I think part of the the issue well, I don't know if it's an issue, but part of what I see as a problem is that tokens are related to economic units, like small units of value, that kind of organize the relationship. Right? And in that sense, it lands too close to the economical systems that we already have. Right. So for me, the idea of the token is very tied to pre existing economies that the quality is that getting rid of those economies right, going beyond those. On the other hand, it's not like I know exactly what will be a good replacement or attempt. Zenna: Speaking of good replacement seminars, are there any projects that you've encountered on your journey that you've been like, wow, they're kind of on to something. You know what I mean? Pablo: Yes, but I guess I have to say that not that many. Zenna: Is it that you have high standards? maybe to broaden your radius? Pablo: I think my problem was, I mean, it was very invested in the early years, like 2012 to 2016 or 17, and my main problem was that most of the projects will have a very, very verbose way of presenting the project and then they will be a replication of other systems, right. Like a lot of alternative currencies, which are not a trendy thing to say now, now you say decentralized apps, but but the way they work is not that different. So it's just like a new... Zenna: t's a lot of tag words. cuz they use the technology. Yeah, blockchain technology. Yeah, this system is the same. Pablo: Yeah, exactly. And most of them will phrase their projects in in radically different ways. And then you will see that the working it was exactly the same right as as other crypto. So I guess it's hard to we can be very blinded by the amount of projects, if you could see the list of decentralized apps are there. They're massive, right? But, but when you go beyond that and start to see like, well, what's a specific difference and of this one, you see that there, you can cluster them in relatively easy, you can also check, like which degree of development they had, most don't have that much development. So from the massive amount of projects that you can see, it's easy to decimate that number. And then... Zenna: because of the similarities Pablo: I will say that it's less that the centralized projects but I have found interesting and more the, the loops that go back to the cooperative, and then the technology they use is like the secondary thing, right. And in that sense, I mean, the decent project was was an interesting one that eventually was kind of implemented to some degree, at least in Barcelona or some other communities, that it started like that, right, like, like, it was part of it was like a cryptocurrency at some point. And but it ended up being to some degree, successfully implemented for a different way to relate related to government. But then again, it was because I think tech was a bit secondary. And the main point was like, anon2696444391 do we reorganize this between people for people? Yeah. So and that kind of those kind of projects is the ones that you don't see that often. Many because it, there's, they're small, right? And they don't have like venture capital or big websites or anything like that. So that's why this idea of platform corporate activism listing is interesting because you see that it's, it may be a really small project in a small community, in Ireland, or in your country. And for me, that's the really interesting part. Zenna: So when we go into the fact that there's a lot of smaller projects out there in the realms of more social action. Yeah. And then secondary technology. We have the case in a lot of the mainstream, more default internet, as we know it, that there's also a lot of misinformation going around. Do you think that there could be a point in also having these smaller initiatives of technology? Or do you see that there's a risk in the smaller initiatives existing and then not learning from each other because they're too small? Or in the in the space of worldwide webs? Yeah. to local smaller initiatives? How do you fare? Pablo: I think I'm more driven to local networks even if they are disconnected between each other in great part because there is different ways and things to solve in regions, right? So kind of having like a magical solution or technology solution or something our organization solution for a really broad spectrum of people. I think that's really complicated, probably destined to not work because of the differences in localism. Right and coming back to Zapatistas in Mexico. Part of their speech is that attempting to replicate them in other countries and other contexts is like, that's absurd, right? Zenna: Correct me if I'm wrong, did they not train in the forest? And secret for like, 10 years or something? Yeah, it was like that. Pablo:Yeah, it was about 10. He was kind of small guerillas. I mean, it has a very interesting history. So they came out in 94. But since the 80s or so. But yeah, the it's a really long project, right? It's a very interesting project, but the it has 30-40 years in the working and, and it's local. I mean, it's it's about a certain region in certain communities in Mexico, and for that they made it work in a beautiful and very utopian way. But then again, if you just take like that risk recipe, and try to apply it in, in Denmark or whichever region, it's, it's probably not gonna work, of course, because it's important to take care of the context. And that's why local communities and local networks even, cannot communicate between each other. For me that's kind of anon2373157426 relevant. Zenna: Especially in today's globalized world. Yeah, getting resources from all over the planet and shipping it all over the planet. Yeah, that's something huge amounts of co2 all over the planet. It feels like also finding local solutions could be a good key. Yeah. So we're going to wrap this up on this lovely note of globalization and Zapatistas. Thank you for a wonderful conversation. Thank you. And yeah, any last notes you want to throw in there? Pablo: No, I'm just glad that these kind of channels exist. And that we keep asking questions about these topics like not just answering right now just trying to offer solutions. Zenna: There's also like, many questions to keep asking before coming with a concrete pre-packaged ""Buy Now 99%."" Well, yes. So keep asking questions. And if you want to ask Pablo questions, cuz it will actually be available to answer questions on the Edgeryders platform. Yeah. That's it for us. Thank you so much. Pablo: Thank you Zenna, a pleasure to be here." 2,68377,2020-01-08T12:00:07.069Z,12322,0,10,9,1,1,0,22.0,68375,anon3379761435,anon1223735027,"[quote=""anon1223735027, post:1, topic:12322""] @anon2682865457 recently interviewed me and part of her gravity encouraged me to introduce myself. [/quote] Well met, then, Pablo. I am Alberto, one of the old timers here. And you are right there, neo-cooperativism is becoming a thing. I am originally from [Emilia-Romagna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilia-Romagna), which has a *very* strong cooperative tradition. Too strong for me to be starry-eyed about it, because I saw them succeed and behave much like any large company, no worse but also no better: capture by senior management, greed, wrongdoings etc. ER is not a coop. Following @anon" 3,68387,2020-01-08T14:05:24.477Z,12322,0,9,8,1,1,0,6.8,68375,anon659222949,anon1223735027,"[quote=""anon1223735027, post:1, topic:12322""] I’m a researcher at the university of Aarhus in Denmark, looking (critically) at sociotechnical systems [/quote] Welcome @anon1223735027! I really enjoy Aarhus, and there are anon2373157426 a few interesting things going on in your city. Here in Stockholm, [Blanon2066456771de is anon2373157426 inspired](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/blanon2066456771de-going-to-deep-dive-in-valencia/11228) by Institute for X in Aarhus. Glad to have you with us!" 4,71574,2020-03-17T20:29:41.530Z,12322,0,9,8,3,0,0,31.8,68375,anon2682865457,anon1223735027,"Late reply here but awesome to see that you posted the interview! It was a pleasure to learn more about your studies and to hear your reflections on the decentralized technology fields and utopias! I always enjoy our conversations @anon1223735027 :cherry_blossom:" 5,71972,2020-03-20T16:19:18.481Z,12322,1,8,7,2,0,0,16.6,68375,anon1753543892,anon1223735027,"Hello @anon1223735027, How are you in theses weird times? How has the Covid19 crisis and social distancing influenced the way you work? As someone being experienced using FOSS for teaching efforts and projects online, could you give some recommendations to others who now suddenly have to use those tools a lot more?" 6,72058,2020-03-22T10:09:38.205Z,12322,2,6,5,1,0,0,61.2,71972,anon1223735027,anon1753543892,"Hi @anon1753543892 , these times are indeed full of uncertainty. I'm not teaching this term, so I was not immediately affected by physical distancing. But most of the activities at the university are cancelled, so I'd say that productivity in general is lower. Some of my colleagues are using Blackboard and or Zoom for virtual classrooms, because it's part of the university resources. However, these are neither free nor open options. An excellent replacement for *virtual classrooms* is [Bigbluebutanon2863106368](https://bigbluebutanon2863106368.org/), which works really well, and **is open source**. As such, **you can install an instance in your own servers, or use the demo offered by the company** (I tried it with +40 people on a +6 hours conference without any issue). For *collaborative writing*, [etherpads](https://etherpad.org/) are a decent gdocs replacement. **Also open source, they can be installed on any server, or you can use a trusted service** (I recommend using [Riseup](https://pad.riseup.net/)) Like the ones above, [Jitsi](https://jitsi.org/) seems to be a replacement for OSS replacement for *videoconferencing* (it has a web service Jitsi Meet, but I haven't tried it). Crisis times are a good opportunity to see what is needed and what is discardable (also in terms of software!). Cheers!" 7,72071,2020-03-22T14:05:22.051Z,12322,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,72058,anon1753543892,anon1223735027,Thank you very much for these great suggestions :) 8,72089,2020-03-22T15:05:48.446Z,12322,2,6,5,1,1,0,16.2,72058,anon3379761435,anon1223735027,"[quote=""anon1223735027, post:6, topic:12322""] [Jitsi](https://jitsi.org/) seems to be a replacement for OSS replacement for *videoconferencin* [/quote] We tried a few years ago, but it sucked really bad. Maybe it's better now..." 9,72098,2020-03-22T15:28:33.259Z,12322,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,72089,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"@anon "" ""If you’re hosting a call in the next few days, you can try out our video conference platform. It’s early stages, but I think it will eventually be a viable alternative to zoom: [http://now.anon1577251828.eu](https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnow.anon1577251828.eu%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0Y2VgHUQs1RG6pVaHYSLr4G6d9WVUV7cDqeuItJIjkEBli9liC5G2Sf3M&h=AT0so4HcqJDFFvnr_GGsOzRQqs_XKac0GAzAYffPVt0zR6n4VMMPZ0GNCEU8Sr5D7FbdHf1d9Feyu1wDssFpqJyTnicRFebL2mkO-Aln6BtHX-KKjXW8-JCl5mBgF6ybId3v4uK-1HO6czeHMMAfKXLm) You can create a room simply by going to ‘[now.anon1577251828.eu/](http://now.anon1577251828.eu/?fbclid=IwAR05hIQEdBo2D5rhVoZKwlPSDuBgmPOiA5mtvuqe3l_aaM-R1wFboEArkfY)’ + ‘room name’. It supports up to 2000 rooms and 200 participants per call. More on this shortly, but you can feel free to test it out.""" 10,72371,2020-03-24T17:36:45.624Z,12322,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,72098,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"I got in and saw that it works. Don't know about latency/performance, but looks simple enough. and thanks Pablo. Howard Rheingold in a recent conversation suggested Big Blue Butanon2863106368. He did also make the comment that he thought learning software works better for the teacher than for the student. But with all this attention now being paid to it, hopefully improvements will emerge. Better than institutionalizing in sanon2863106368e bad design." 11,72430,2020-03-25T10:36:26.667Z,12322,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,72089,anon1223735027,anon3379761435,"Yeah, it was really bad! But at least on the looks, it has improved a lot. Haven't done it myself, but seems like a great moment to give it a second chance" 1,72358,2020-03-24T15:14:06.255Z,12958,0,7,6,7,0,0,36.4,72358,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Memes - those horizontal-moving notions, slogans, phrases that take hold of the public and private conversations for a time, often to disappear and sometimes to hang around. Often now political. Sometimes true, sometimes not. And who can tell most of the time? In November 2019, Edgeryders Fellow Zenna Fiscanon4205961763 Interviewed PhD student Max Schlüter who is on a quest to find the nature of memes, anon2696444391 they propagate, who propagates them most successfully and what makes them work where others fail. It's a deep dive and he is early in his adventure, but he has already uncovered a number of salient points on the matter. Zenna brings in anon2696444391 memes influence the commercial world. Are some of these propagations paid for? (Posted with written permission) Zenna: Welcome to the second episode of EdgeRyders. Today we have max Schlüter with us who's a PhD student with a focus on… Max: Memetics, dis-information and the organizational practice surrounding them. Zenna: Yes. To translate that into non academic terminology, that is… Max: I'm looking at memes basically, from right wing and also left wing extremists, anon2696444391 they use to disinform and shape public discourse. Zenna: via memes, yes. Max: via memes, yes. Zenna: Okay. So this is very curious. It's a new practice. To start off just to get an introduction, anon2696444391 does one study that? Max: People have looked at memes for longer than you might expect. I think the term itself has been around for around 20 or 30 years and it initially started out in the science fiction scene, like many things started out. But then academic papers have been written around memes starting 2010 ish earlier as well but like the ones I'm really focusing on are Schiffman hailing out of Israel, she's been writing about good 10 years now about memes and anon2696444391 they used and memes and disinformation or memes and as a as a media practice to dis-inform and to shape public discourse. I've been also five years within a discourse. But for me, it's more important to look at the people behind it so I'm not more having more ethnographic approach. Zenna: So for those of a different generation, or for those who simply don't meme very much, anon2696444391 extensive are memes and anon2696444391 extensive do you believe they are shaping online culture today? Max: “anon2696444391 extensive” - in what way do you mean? Zenna: like, Is it very common? Max: Memes, yes. The term itself - like the definition of the term is kind of very loose like it like a lot of things, and it kind of varies from person to person what a meme is, it can be a inside joke can be declared a meme, it can be the very traditional image macro of like image and text on top. That could be considered a meme. Short videos or haikus can be considered memes. And they're kind of all encompassing in digital culture. I would say that they penetrate a lot of different discourses and groups. And that's why it's so interesting to look at memes because they are everywhere. Everybody uses them. And I just read a very interesting article yesterday about about metaphors. And they had one metaphor to describe memes from Whitney Phillips, I think, was as a cardboard cutout and she talked about anon2696444391 a meme can be considered as a cardboard cutout. Everybody can print a cardboard cutout and put it in the room. But every room that it is used in kind of changes the meaning of the meme, right? So like if you have a cardboard cutout of Donald Trump in a very feminist left wing party, they're going to be have a very Like a different view of what it's supposed to mean, then at the right wing rally, for example. So, yeah means a very all encompassing, I would say. Zenna: And the interpretation of them changes with the context. Max: Definitely. Zenna: So you started a bit of a journey. We had a conversation days ago, and you described it almost like a detective journey. Do you? Do you want to share your journey? Max: I can. I mean, I'm on this journey still and still, but I'm always on kind of. And right now, as I'm trying to understand all of this, this project, this prospect, especially thinking about also people behind memes, I've been starting to get into contact with a lot of people and going through leads, and it's almost like, depending on who I talk to, you get different intros into topic of memetic disinformation. One of the most interesting one or the most well studied one This 2016 presidential elections in the US, and then from there is a lot of different people you can follow different memes you can follow different ideas you can follow. But everything that's been written is very old. Not very old, but due to the fact anon2696444391 long books take to print and editing, things are two, three years behind what's actually happening right now. So I'm on the prowl, you could say, to figure out what's happening now. What's the practice now who's doing it? Where the interesting people? Zenna: Would you say there are big actors behind memes used for spreading disinformation, so to say? Max: There are, I guess there are main actors. It's a bit early in my research to name any actors. I mean, there is some people that have been studied before. For example, Gabrielle Coleman has been writing about a very prominent person in general in meme culture, or in troll cultures called “weave”, who was before in Anonymous or part of Anonymous, anon2696444391ever, you can be in Anonymous, and now he's linked to All Right, memetics. So he will be one of the he will be maybe one of those key actors you're talking about, but there's way, way, way, way, way more, and it's very limited our understanding of it. And also of course groups are part of that, right? Like, different groupings on Discord. For example, Unicorn Riot. It's independent journalist group of journalists that revealed a lot of these hidden communities on discord through… Zenna: Okay, so for those who don't know, sorry, what's Discord? Max: Discord is traditionally I think, targeted at gamers and marketed to gamers and its communication platform, I think, I hope I'm not stumbling over my words, because platform is such a big word, but a communication tool where people can meet up and create groups, Zenna: And it's for chat and voice. Max: It's for voice chat. It's kind of like TeamSpeak. If anybody's listening that knows about TeamSpeak. And it's kind of built on that logic of having chat rooms and then also being able to talk to each other through voice. Zenna: And so something that you mentioned to me a while back, which was news to me at the time, was that there's pretty large organizational happenings, organized via Discord. And specifically for the right wing extreme? Max: I think both most likely, because they have a very interesting policy of as long as we don't know it we don't see it. So as long as these communities are not pointed at, they can exist on the platform, which a lot of platforms actually use that, that logic are used to use that logic as long as nobody's conservative, nobody's gonna ban them, mostly also, because of the sheer size of people that platforms have to consider it, right. So a lot of these extremist groupings take to Discord and obviously other communication tools. And this is why it's so interesting, because it's always shifting and changing. Zenna: And that's what the group uncovered. The rainbow.. Max: Unicorn Riot. They discovered different groupings. Yes. Today we're , because the German word “Undercover” in these groups, many of them taking various forms of anon2696444391 do you say, vetting so before you can join, you have to take the quiz you have to sanon2696444391 your allegiance to the right wing ideals you have to send your ID card perhaps you have to so that they are not in trouble of getting ratted out. Right. So they have like a very.. Zenna: So they have actually strict policies in place in order to stop people Max: from intruding. Yeah, so it’s like a ban. The right wing parties are cautious, not the platform owners. They don't, I don't know if they don't care, but there's it's the two extremes groupings they don't want to get found, of course, because then you would destroy their communication. Zenna: and scheming. Okay, so one thing that I found very interesting about memes and that we talked about a bit awhile back, I'm a complete novice when it comes to academically studying memes. I do anon2373157426 often scroll through Reddit and without cookies on. And I do that as a way to look at what memes are naturally being brought to the front page by the algorithms. And I mentioned this to you but the whole “Picachu” meme, and anon2696444391 that correlated with the Pikachu movie release. Max: Do you my mind kind of explaining that? Zenna: Thank you. Well, basically, in November 2018 Suddenly, there was a spike with this surprise Pikachu meme, and I was surprised that it was suddenly such a big thing with this one random picture of Pikachu being surprised. And it's always fascinating anon2696444391 means and mean formats kickoff, so eventually I heard about the new Pikachu detective movie that was released shortly after. And I realized that there could be a correlation. And so that would indicate that not only are political groupings using it, but also for capitalist motives. As a form of subliminal commercials. Max: Yes, definitely. Yes, I believe that. That is, it is a good statement. And I believe that is to be true and to be proven also true that various companies are using memes or the meme format, or the visual format of memes in order to appropriate a capitalistic viewpoint unto what is traditionally a very community created thing. Yeah, I believe that to be true. I could see anon2696444391 that works. Because memes differ from - there's like a very important distinction between virals and memes. As a viral is only one single sample like a viral video, for example. So just one community felt that people flocked to this country viral thing, whereas a meme, by definition is always re-appropriated and re-edited while the creation of it perhaps could be seen as something that once had a capitalistic viewpoint on it, like the appropriations of it are very, in a sense personal and it's very hard to control the way a meme spreads. So that's why I'm a anon2488317424 bit unsure of that, if that's possible, because you wouldn't need to have either a big community or a big network of bots, in order to first get a meme to start off and then get community appropriated. Zenna: But with a format, it's implied within the format already. So no matter the content that's put above it, it’s still embedded within the form I'm thinking of. Another one that I've been reacting to lately that's been very popular is girls are like, “something something” and then us boys “something, something.” Have you seen that one around? It's become really, really big. I'm probably paraphrasing it wrong. Max: No, it might just be me. Zenna: And just implied in that format, there's also the aspect of gender groupings that are being Max: binary, false binary, perhaps even Zenna: yes, and also just the chauvinistic, the “we,” because the we becomes the dominant voice and the narrative there. What would be like an example for like, right wing meming, for example, or left wing meming? Max: So the thing is when you look at it; when I'm looking from academic point of view it means the viewpoints you can have on them are limitless, right? You can have a viewpoint that is focused on the visual aesthetics of memes and why they are, why they are interesting, then you have a viewpoint that focuses on the distribution, right? Like things that are redistributed things: like anon2696444391 do they defuse and then you could have a viewpoint that's very cultural science like, influenced by a very humanistic viewpoint like the one you just had. I mean, an example of a right wing meme, I don't think I could give you examples but like just I don't think it exists as like, “this is what we need to have a rightwing meme.” The interesting thing or the difficult thing, or also scary thing, is that the appropriate the form of that already exists and subliminally create messaging in these formats that are perhaps, like you just mentioned, have either chauvinistic viewpoint or inherently anti or racial viewpoints. And the interesting thing is that these memes then are through the way that these groups are organizing both on the left and the right but anon2488317424 bit better on the on the right, I had some friends told me that right people just meme better. They're better organized in that way. Zenna: Oh, that's so funny. I know people who would say the exact opposite. (Laughs.) Max: It's interesting, maybe you should connect me to the other people that that through the way Zenna: It's a subreddit called right wanon2945747231rs can't meme. Max: Great. Through that way they are kind of playing a rhythm, right? Like if you create this new meme that is has like the already successful format that is proven to be successful. And then you have a bunch of people uploading it at the same time, these messages just kind of get thrown into the discourse. Zenna: So you mentioned something there that I think is interesting to also happen to further. That's the concept that in order to make a meme go viral, if you post it at a certain time, and you have a certain amount of people uploading it within the first few minutes, it's almost ensured that the meme will rise and gain traction, so to speak. So in a sense, that also could make it pretty cheap almost to buy the traction of memes. And thus, the establishment of certain cultures. The train of thought, right now is, if it's easy to buy cultures, and they're actively are groups that organize around producing means to create subliminal messages, anon2696444391 can people have real culture nowadays? How can there be real internet culture and what spaces would those be? Max: I agree with you to two large extent with the question, but then you kind of take a turn and then it's a very real and wrong. I don't I don't know if there's a dualism that I would say having everything that is digital is real. Everything is online culture. In online culture you’re saying that, as soon as they're appropriated by businesses is not any more real culture? Zenna: I'm saying it's seemingly created by community, out of genuine… Max: Oh you'd want to know where the border is kind of… Zenna: Yeah, if the spaces that are popular for distributing memes nowadays, are easily bought up without it, especially probably nine gags (?), or whatever else. Where are the spaces that are genuine meme producers? Max: Okay, it's a question I don't work with on a daily, but just from thinking about it. Zenna: Do you think it's something that should exist? Max: I feel like it sounds a anon2488317424 bit relativistic (?) in that way. Like these are genuine memes, and these aren’t? Who is that to judge. And in the end, you are the judge of that. So you will find the places that make the genuine memes for you, right. I mean, traditionally, most, I think there's actually studies of dissemination from of memes. And most of them start on 4chan, and 8chan, which are still sporting a very, very, very basic structure of online organization. So they don't have any algorithm mix, or uploads or likes or any metrics that go hand in hand with the page. So there will be maybe a place where you find genuine content if you want, that isn't metrified and bought up. Zenna: That's an interesting one, because I've been reading about – well, it ties back a anon2488317424 bit to what you talked about before. About the meme persona you mentioned who had a background of “belonging.” (Insert quotation marks for those who can't see) belonging to Anonymous and establishing a large culture also based from 4chan, because Anonymous and 4chan are tied together. The groups on Discord. Are they tied into 4chan as well? Or 8chan? Max: That's a good question. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. To a certain extent there's some groupings that some people that have been, especially in the in the realm of investigative journalists and infiltration researchers that have taken up certain communities, especially in Germany that has been is called the “conquest RK Monica” (?) was a big hit piece on people that were kind of linking real people to the Discord personas. But to which extent they're connected to 4chan, I cannot tell you right now, I don't know. I wouldn't know. It’s an interesting question, because I feel like there's a different intention behind that, right? Like, we kind of quick to throw together a lot of people as the same like into the same wording and slum and box. Whereas I believe that, especially people that are targeting memetic warfare are more into playing with the algorithms and trying to get their memes up to the top. Whereas, perhaps some other people are just trolling or putting memes up because they're there for the community aspect of it. And I guess there's some people that are overlapping. Yeah. But I feel like in general, when it comes to creating successful memes, and when you want to rate them on a metric scale, then they are targeting bigger platforms, or mainstream platform. Zenna: So speaking of boxing's to go into a box, that's not the 4chan right wing box, there has been the case of GovZero in Taiwan. And I heard that the process that they had been working on, that they've been making stickers to use on the phones. So because all people in Taiwan send a lot of stickers on the phones and then they would be placing subtle messages inside the stickers on the phones, to demonstrate a certain political view, this whole process stems out of this longer political process of basically forking the government of Taiwan. So they will take the government's web pages create a very similar one or similar URL and domain name, and then copy paste the website but change the content. Max: What I think you might be getting at, let me say differently. In that case, I think if you want to compare it to memes was one other question you were looking at maybe in the case of the GovZero and Taiwan, I think it is, in that case different because the message in the stickers is hidden and is it is for a very certain audience to be to be found. Whereas in memetics, I think the interesting or the other scary part about it is that the message is intentionally mainstream. Like, everybody is supposed to be able to uncover the message and it gets blurted out. Zenna: But it is subliminal. Max: It is subliminal, yes. Zenna: What was the correlation between those two, between subliminal and a mainstream message? Max: Subliminal in a sense that it is supposed to steer discourse without you necessarily knowing, whereas in GovZero stickers are used to…you have to already be in the in-group in order to understand them, right? Like you won't just see the sticker and have a message in there. The sticker itself is message-less, right? Zenna: I've never actually seen that myself. Max: Okay, maybe we shouldn’t talk about it because I didn't know anything about it either. I was just thinking about when you say like hiding it in stickers. Yeah, maybe we should talk about it. I'll look into it. It sounds interesting. Zenna: We'll go back to her comfortable corners of 4chan. You know, I started out there . Yeah. You too probably. You can see it? Is it on my face? Max: know I could I could see it in terms of, I can see you there. Zenna: I’ll take that as a dis! Ok it’s a compliment. Max: It’s a loving nudge. Zenna: All right. So I feel like there's so much more we could be talking about. Max: Yeah, we can talk about it again. Zenna: Yes, some other time. Thank you so much for joining. Max: Thank you so much for having me." 2,72435,2020-03-25T11:11:23.254Z,12958,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,72358,anon3197437925,anon3203746736,"Could you add a short summary paragraph at the top and hint in the title what the interview is about? It's valuable content, and I think that would make it more engaging :)" 3,72466,2020-03-25T16:03:09.199Z,12958,0,4,3,0,0,0,15.8,72435,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,"Yes..had asked Max himself to do it, but absent that, I will.." 1,72213,2020-03-23T16:35:18.691Z,12940,0,20,19,3,0,0,49.0,72213,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"**Hello dear community,** **Much happened in the last week and everyone is dealing with the new situation as best they can. Here is a ""short"" summary of the current discussions ongoing:** Measures of social distancing to hamper the spread of the Covid19 virus are taken by individuals, organisations and states. Edgeryders and the NGI community want to be an active part of helping us cope and learn from this new situation. We all experience new perspectives on social and digital relationships as well as coping and engagement mechanisms. Many very interesting conversations are had all across different platforms and in homes all across the world. *However many platforms, such as for example Facebook will just forget most of these conversations and have even started to suppress some of them through their algorithms flagging them as spams. More details on this promise and anon2696444391 we are and will be using the Social Semantic Network analysis in this situation will follow soon. For now I just want to share this short quote @anon2559300400 to summarise our goal and promise to you:* > **Our goal is to get the EU to see and facilitate the Internet as an infrastructure to community resilience , not just paid content delivery. Share your stories, and we will aggregate them into a structured, human-readable output that informs the European Commission’s policies. We will also use the platform to connect with each other – to help facilitate all the kinds of community-based care we can imagine together.** Below you can find an overview of some of the main ongoing conversations: I think a good place to start is @anon659222949 ‘s personal yet very well researched and factual supported story about anon2696444391 he started to understand the severity of the current crisis. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/my-journey-to-understanding-covid-19/12816 Since then, we have started many conversations to create space to discuss different aspects of the situation. **Let's start with positive news:** Here we share positive insights the community members have during this changed situation which might have an impact down the line: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/this-made-me-think-positive-insights-and-learnings-during-the-virus-ausnahmezustand/12843 General positive news on the crisis are shared and discussed here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-positive-virus-update/12858/7 *On the other hand, when anxiety hits you or all of it suddenly feels much nearer when someone near to you is affected or you are overwhelmed with all the statistics and information out there and do not know what to feel or think, join in here:* https://anon1577251828.eu/t/statistically-feeling-bad/12845 **Work has changed for many people and we are discussing that here:** https://anon1577251828.eu/t/work-in-the-time-of-corona-virus/12850 Teachers and students are among those especially challenged by this crisis and we want to discuss what are the problems and anon2696444391 we can help here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/suddenly-teaching-and-learning-remotely-what-do-you-do/12844 Many people face a loss of work and income during this crisis. Here we discuss your stories regarding that: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-to-do-when-losing-work-during-covid19-community-calls-each-tuesday-noon/12886/ In the following thread we discuss anon2696444391 to get local foundations and NGO's online and help to do so: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-community-foundations-and-local-ngos-maintain-their-programs-and-move-online/12899/ Not only jobs, but also private life is affected by this crisis. Are you away from your family and friends due to the crisis? tell us your story here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/is-corona-keeping-you-away-from-your-home-country-family-and-friends/12856/ We want to help everyone to have the best possible remote work experience. Therefore we are working on a MOOC as well as direct counselling for distributed work. The project is to be financed via crowdsourcing. Check out where we are now and find out anon2696444391 you can profit or contribute: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-is-crowdfunding-a-mooc-on-anon2696444391-to-do-remote-work-and-distributed-collaboration-well-here-is-anon2696444391-you-can-help/12828 And finally: **We are in general working on a new strategy to provide the most positive impact during this challenging time; How to do this is discussed here:** https://anon1577251828.eu/t/do-you-want-to-join-our-covid19-community-response-a-breakdown-of-anon1577251828-activities-roles-tasks-and-workflows/12879/55 *You are welcome to become part of our shared efforts and also to join in our weekly team and Community response calls:* https://anon1577251828.eu/t/weekly-covid2019-community-response-call/12920 **Looking forward to hearing from you in any of these conversations, learn from your stories, help each other and of course also always feel free to open your own thread.** **Take care of yourself and each other!**" 2,72214,2020-03-23T16:38:27.492Z,12940,0,10,9,0,0,0,17.0,72213,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,@anon294806887 could you add some of the key threads form poprebel in this list? 3,72217,2020-03-23T16:54:12.062Z,12940,1,14,13,1,0,0,27.8,72213,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"@anon3828707713 normally I would have posted this in NGI, but now we want to move the general energy here, isn't it?" 4,72222,2020-03-23T17:32:22.426Z,12940,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,72217,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,yes correct :) 5,72245,2020-03-23T20:53:25.283Z,12940,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,72213,anon1753543892,anon1753543892, 6,72360,2020-03-24T15:25:34.269Z,12940,0,9,8,0,0,0,1.8,72213,anon294806887,anon1753543892,"This is also a useful overview to follow: https://anon1577251828.eu/tags/covid19" 7,72433,2020-03-25T11:03:44.706Z,12940,0,7,6,0,0,0,16.4,72217,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"Just tag it the way I did now, and it's fine. Then it does not matter for our analysis software if it's in the #ioh category or not." 8,72439,2020-03-25T11:35:26.949Z,12940,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,72433,anon1753543892,anon3197437925,"ok, will do so in future. thank you :)" 1,66239,2019-11-28T17:11:00.504Z,11989,1,32,31,375,0,0,1926.4,66239,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"![Edgeryders-Fest-FB-1200x628-lycarillo-01|690x361](upload://tlwC7OycaMiCjPNYSPa3Tzdsby7.png) # From Competition to Cooperation. Hear about tech that matters. **Organizer:** @anon2860100070 **Co-organizer:** DigitYser, Edgeryders **Location:** DigitYser, Boulevard d'Anvers 40, 1000 Brussels **Language:** English ## About this Event ""Breakthroughs in our capacities to communicate and coordinate restructure society. Language birthed culture and hunter-gatherer tribes. Writing forged kingdoms and agriculture-age empires. Printing enabled nations and industrial-age economies. The Internet launched a new restructuring of society, but is constrained by computing tech designed for centralized control. Learning from nature's blueprints, Ceptr provides an evolvable, fully distributed framework for coordination and sense-making on all scales."" [Arthur Brock](http://ceptr.org/) ""If we are to preserve the democratic and creative promise of the Internet, we must continuously diagnose control points as they emerge and devise mechanisms of recreating diversity of constraint and degrees of freedom in the network to work around these forms of reconcentrated power."" [Yochai Benkler](http://benkler.org/Degrees_of_Freedom_Dimensions_of_Power_Final.pdf) ___________ Each of us wants to have control over anon2696444391 and with whom we interact. In order to evolve and thrive, our communities must support everyone's uniqueness. Yet today, our online relationships are dominated by centralized corporate web sites. In this event, you will learn about some peer-to-peer projects based on blockchain and holochain technologies that enable a distributed web with user auanon2863106368omy built directly into its architecture and protocols. Data is about remembering our lived and shared experiences. Distributing the storage and processing of that data can change anon2696444391 we coordinate and interact. With digital integration under user control, these technolgies liberate our online lives from corporate control over our choices and information. Come and hear about Collaboration, Collective Intelligence and Next Generation Internet technologies that facilitate this to happen! ***Schedule and Content:*** 09:00 am - Registration, coffee and networking 09:30 am - Welcome words, data and collective intelligence. By [Liliana Carrillo](https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrilloliliana/) 09:45 am - Keynote: Decentralized cooperation at Scale. By [Michel Bauwens](https://www.linkedin.com/in/mbauwens/) 10:15 am - E-Women, safer access to e-democracy. By [Anna Melenchuk](https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-melenchuk-b4109581/) 10:30 am - Global border-less democracy, Open Source. By [Paula Berman](https://twitter.com/_paulaberman) 10:45 am - Panel: Intelectual Property for Collaboration. How to protect your ideas and inventions from theft? With [Alain Souloumiac](https://www.linkedin.com/in/alain-souloumiac-75442610/), [Dick Van Gelder](https://www.linkedin.com/in/dickvangelder/), [Elena Bachert](https://starks.be/en/starks-team/elena-bachert/), [Reinhard Dhondt](https://starks.be/en/starks-team/reinhard-dhondt/) Moderator: [Philippe Van Impe](https://twitter.com/pvanimpe) 11:45 am - Coffee/tea break - Networking 12:15 am - Holochain Meetup: Introduction and Q&A. By [Raphi See](https://twitter.com/RaphiSee). 12:45 am - Closing words & networking 13:00 pm - Doors close. ------------------- ## Who will attend the event? * Edgeryders community members * DigitYser community members * Hive.Brussels community members * Digital Leadership Institute community members * Women In Tech Brussels (WIT 1819.Brussels) community members * [Liliana Carrillo](https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrilloliliana/) @anon2860100070 * [Michel Bauwens](https://www.linkedin.com/in/mbauwens/) * [Anna Melenchuk](https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-melenchuk-b4109581/) * [Dick Van Gelder](https://www.linkedin.com/in/dickvangelder/) * [Elena Bachert](https://starks.be/en/starks-team/elena-bachert/) * [Reinhard Dhondt](https://starks.be/en/starks-team/reinhard-dhondt/) * [Philippe Van Impe](https://twitter.com/pvanimpe) * [Loredana Bucseneanu](https://www.linkedin.com/in/loredanabucseneanu/) * @anon3093654461 @anon3645153774 @anon * You! ## Who will follow the live-streaming of the event? * [Raphi See](https://twitter.com/RaphiSee) * [Paula Berman](https://twitter.com/_paulaberman) * [Alain Souloumiac](https://www.linkedin.com/in/alain-souloumiac-75442610/) * @anon3828707713 * @anon1753543892 * You! -------------------- **Purpose of the event** * Bring people together to hear anon2696444391 the Artificial Intelligence in the hands of the GAFA group has led us to the centralization of data and therefore centralization of power that is affecting our democracy at global scale. * Create awareness of recent technological developments that have the potential to decentralize the internet, protect our privacy/data, create transparency and openness for inclusive collaboration at scale and therefore create a collaborative decision making system. * Teach the basics of several open source technologies (Holochain, Democracy.Earth, E-Women) to the Open Source community in Brussels, and invite them, active them to shape these technologies for a better Europe. * Discuss anon2696444391 Intellectual Property may need to change to enable a collaborative Internet to happen, and facilitate the creation of open knowledge (open source, white/green papers) with respect for the authors while enabling collaboration to scale. * Facilitate networking between different actors for collaborative projects around raising technological and social opportunities. # Frequently asked questions ### How do I get an invitation/ticket to this workshop? **Get your entrance ticket at: http://tiny.cc/cooperate** *At the venue, we will register on Edgeryders' platform to share our learning, questions: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/* ### How is this event being organised? This event, and the festival it is part of, is coordinated on the anon1577251828 platform (where you are now) and co-curated through a series of community video calls. We have allocated a collaboratively managed budget for the festival and operate on a solidarity basis. Participants who need some financial support to organise or be able to participate in the festival are eligible provided they contribute towards making it a meaningful and generative experience for all - in the run up to, during and/or after the event. If you would like to join us but are unsure as to anon2696444391 to contribute, don’t worry. Create an [anon1577251828 account ](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login), then [tell us a bit about yourself here ](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you) and we will guide you along from there. ### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png) ### Does getting involved mean I endorse the funders views or actions? No. What you are doing is contributing to an open consultation on the topic of anon2696444391 to build a next generation of internet infrastructure, technologies, business models etc that promotes the wellbeing of humans and the natural environment. The consultation methodology is designed in such a way as to allow for diversity of views, premises, disciplines, themes and contexts. We employ open notebook science principles and the results will be presented in the form of a research report accessible to everyone after the event. You can follow the process, review the methodology and open source tech we are using and engage directly with the research and coordination team here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/workspace ### What is the code of conduct? It is important to us that everyone in the room feels welcomed and safe; if you have any particular concerns or needs just send me a PM here on the platform or write to [anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu](mailto:anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu) . The Edgeryders online platform technology and activities are intended for people to cooperate within and across projects trying to build a better world. The word “better” has here a fairly broad range of meaning. These [Community Guidelines](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/netiquette/45) are here to help you understand what it means to be a member of Edgeryders. Don’t forget that your use of Edgeryders is subject to these Community Guidelines and our [Terms of Service](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/id/44). ### What happens with my data? You can read about our [Terms of Use and Privacy Policy here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/terms-of-use-and-privacy-policy/44). Also: * [Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016 on the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data, and repealing Directive 95/46/EC (General Data Protection Regulation) (Text with EEA relevance)](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.119.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:119:TOC) * [Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0046) * [Handbook on European Data Protection directive](http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Handbook_data_protection_ENG.pdf) * [European Commission website - Protection of personal data](http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/)" 2,66241,2019-11-28T17:29:21.056Z,11989,0,23,22,4,0,0,54.6,66239,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,@anon1753543892 I have created the event page. Let me know what I still miss to add. 3,66243,2019-11-28T17:40:01.819Z,11989,1,23,22,1,0,0,29.6,66239,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"Great! i tagg this and push it to the festival side and added the flyer as a picture :). You can find the png here, to use it for facebook outreach and such: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zWJRZgO2DCKqayWXOdARqYS7UGYZp4IK?usp=sharing Would be great if you could send me a short bio of yours like this: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon3747875924-zehle/10952 so I can add you to the organiser gallery as well :) + image of yourself :)" 4,66249,2019-11-28T18:18:46.112Z,11989,2,19,18,3,1,0,43.8,66243,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:3, topic:11989""] short bio [/quote] Here you find a bio: Liliana Carrillo is a Co-Founder of the European Digital Development Alliance and R&D Manager at the Institute of Innovative Governance and active member of the community for Decentralized and Distributed Governance DGOV. International speaker on several tech topics, [TEDx speaker](https://youtu.be/fqR8OQ1u63Q) on liquid democracy, passionate about the decentralization of power, and technologies that support us to self-organize in a variety of ways, upgrading the way we collaborate, and decide collectively. Computer science engineer with a masters diploma in artificial intelligence, distributed systems and business, and background in education and social work. Ambassador of several tech/social movements: Happiness movement, Democracy.Earth, Agile Learning Centers, European Network for Democratic Education, Human Swarming, and Holochain. I have several other versions [here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hnXby2n2uAodHeKgxNSbQJlQzqYvxXp79H-n8I8vNlE/edit?usp=sharing)" 5,66255,2019-11-28T18:45:46.773Z,11989,1,20,19,1,0,0,14.0,66239,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"For the attendees and people interested on joining this conversation, it will be very useful to know the answers to the following questions: **1. Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at this event?** **2. When did something related to the internet last make you hopeful or happy?** **3. When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?**" 6,66261,2019-11-28T18:52:57.195Z,11989,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,66249,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"Thanks, will add it :)" 7,66262,2019-11-28T18:56:21.074Z,11989,1,18,17,1,1,0,13.6,66255,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:5, topic:11989""] answers to the following questions: **1. Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at this event?** **2. When did something related to the internet last make you hopeful or happy?** **3. When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** [/quote] For those not yet registered, you can also just fill in this form instead, with some questions that will make an introduction post for you automatically :): https://register.anon1577251828.eu/" 8,66263,2019-11-28T19:12:25.098Z,11989,1,15,14,1,1,0,28.0,66239,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:7, topic:11989""] For those not yet registered [/quote] I will share this page via eventbrite to the attendees registered on that platform." 9,66264,2019-11-28T19:19:24.463Z,11989,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,66263,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"Promotional links: Twitter: https://twitter.com/lilicarrillof/status/1200119817606516741 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/carrilloliliana_cooperation-at-scale-next-generation-collective-activity-6605888361485877248-M9Qv I did also facebook but I cannot find the link to the post." 10,66305,2019-11-29T11:05:51.578Z,11989,0,15,14,2,0,0,13.0,66239,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"@anon2860100070, updated the flyer. Find the files here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zWJRZgO2DCKqayWXOdARqYS7UGYZp4IK added you to the organisers bios: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/liliana-carrillo/12000 you can now find the event and bio on the festival site: https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/" 11,66342,2019-11-29T14:36:53.770Z,11989,3,16,15,1,1,0,23.2,66249,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:4, topic:11989""] Ambassador of several tech/social movements: Happiness movement, Democracy.Earth, Agile Learning Centers, European Network for Democratic Education, Human Swarming, and Holochain. [/quote] Hi @anon1753543892 Small correction to my bio here: Could you please copy the following? Ambassador of several educational, social and tech movements: Happiness movement, Democracy.Earth Foundation, Agile Learning Centers, European Network for Democratic Education, Human Swarming, and Holochain." 12,66343,2019-11-29T14:38:48.899Z,11989,0,17,16,1,1,0,23.4,66239,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:1, topic:11989""] From Competition to Cooperation [/quote] @anon3747875924 @anon3379761435 @anon1753543892 @anon3554387720 @anon3828707713 @anon3203746736 Is this interesting for someone in your network?" 13,66353,2019-11-29T16:44:51.147Z,11989,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,66342,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,Will do tomorrow morning or later anon2863106368ight 14,66504,2019-12-01T08:53:17.456Z,11989,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,66239,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,Livestreaming at several channels: http://digityser.org/live 15,66706,2019-12-02T18:04:27.983Z,11989,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,66239,anon995479489,anon2860100070,"Hi @anon2860100070, I missed this event. Is the video available for viewing now?" 16,66799,2019-12-03T16:32:00.467Z,11989,1,13,12,1,1,0,12.6,66342,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:11, topic:11989""] Small correction to my bio here [/quote] Hi @anon1753543892 Could you help me to update my short-bio, please?" 17,66800,2019-12-03T16:42:13.954Z,11989,0,14,13,3,1,0,17.8,66799,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:11, topic:11989""] Ambassador of several educational, social and tech movements: Happiness movement, Democracy.Earth Foundation, Agile Learning Centers, European Network for Democratic Education, Human Swarming, and Holochain. [/quote] sure, sorry slipped through the cracks. is updated now: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/liliana-carrillo/12000. I also made it a wiki,so you can change it yourself :)" 18,66815,2019-12-03T18:01:39.448Z,11989,1,14,13,1,1,0,27.8,66706,anon2860100070,anon995479489,"[quote=""anon995479489, post:15, topic:11989""] video [/quote] Hi @anon995479489 As soon as the videos are sent to me, I will share them here. I will ping you." 19,66850,2019-12-04T09:41:31.849Z,11989,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,66239,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"Hi @anon1753543892, this is the message I have sent to the attendees of the event via eventbrite. Dear all, Thanks for attending the event 'Cooperate at Scale' that took place last Sunday. Thanks for your active participation, for your questions, your comments, the networking and talking that happened, and in general for your great contributions. Very grateful to have counted with you, on site, and online. Even though there is room for improvement, I feel happy to have taken the step to organize this first event in a series of events, and I feel satisfied with the quality of the content shared and also with the 'quality' of the audience. I feel honored to have attracted such a interesting people like you! Thanks! To organize the next event even better, and in co-creation with you, I would like you to join the Edgeryders platform, the place where the conversations about the next events will happen. I will also share the presentations and video recording of the event on the platform. Join it here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/cooperation-at-scale-next-generation-collective-intelligence-and-internet/11989 Please share your comments about the event, your learning. All comments are welcome, the critical ones too! :) Let's shape together the content of the coming events by answering some of the suggested questions, or by sharing freely what you feel of value. - Tell us about yourself. What are you working on, and why were you at the 'Cooperate at Scale' event? - What have you learned at the event? Is there something new you heard? Something that you liked? disliked? - What would you like to learn more in deep at a next event? - Do you know possible sponsors for future events? volunteers that may want to help us? - Do you think that people may want to bring food to share for a next time? anon1443855569-to-peer talks and Potluck gathering? Feel free to also invite other people to the platform, and forward this email, so we shape together the content of the future events. Feel free to send me an email too! Looking forward to keeping in touch with you! Warm regards, Liliana." 20,66945,2019-12-05T04:34:51.399Z,11989,1,12,11,2,0,0,17.4,66815,anon995479489,anon2860100070,Great. Thanks so much @anon2860100070 21,67090,2019-12-06T15:06:40.060Z,11989,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,66239,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"@anon995479489, you should join into the Collective Intelligence H2020 Proposal call today 18:00-19:00: Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/366865057 and the Community Call on Tuesday the 10th 18:00-19:00 on the topic of collective intelligence, where @anon2860100070 will present a short intro and me and others will present more such as Edgeryders Semantic Social Network Analysis.: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/10th-of-december-anon1577251828-community-call-coming-together-for-collective-intelligence/12133" 22,67175,2019-12-09T11:41:33.323Z,11989,2,8,7,1,0,0,61.6,66239,anon3513303872,anon2860100070,"Thank you for organizing the event. I enjoyed the talk by Michel very much. In my view, the Holochain part was a anon2488317424 too short but I think there will be more opportunities in the future. I am organizing events around these topics as well and would like to coordinate our efforts. Here is a link to the next meetup about ""Digital Human Rights"", talking about two factor authentication and security on the internet in general: https://www.meetup.com/Digital-Human-Rights-Belgium/events/266658705/ The more technical group is https://www.meetup.com/blockchain-garage-brussels/ Looking forward to the next activity!" 23,67178,2019-12-09T12:22:20.808Z,11989,2,9,8,1,0,0,31.8,67175,anon2860100070,anon3513303872,"Hi dear @anon3513303872 I am very happy to see you over here and continue the conversations we started via email on this platform. I will be attending your meetup on Secure your data, and if possible I am interested on co-organizing events with you, joining our forces, collaborating :slight_smile: Great initiatives, blockchain garage, and human digital rights. I plan to organize this same event again, and I am checking the dates with Michel. It will be with a title referring to the Commons and it will touch several topics like in the Cooperate at Scale event. I will also organize several meetups that are more focused on one topic: one only for holochain, one only for governance, collaborative platforms, one only for intellectual property, and so on... Is there any preference on your side for a next event? I would also love to hear the opinion of @anon3093654461 and @anon3645153774 Warm regards, Liliana." 24,67179,2019-12-09T12:24:33.080Z,11989,1,9,8,1,0,0,41.8,66945,anon2860100070,anon995479489,"Hi @anon995479489 On the youtube channel of DigitYser, some videos have been published. Look at this one: https://youtu.be/8ZU1qfqe9XQ" 25,67185,2019-12-09T13:12:12.621Z,11989,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,67178,anon3645153774,anon2860100070,"Thank you for including me in the discussion. I have no preference, anything that talks about tech including humans and for social purpose is of my interest. I will not be present on 17th December, but I will follow if there's a live, and I will be available on January (hopefully, I don't know what life and universe have in store for me). Thank you again for your presence and your energy" 26,67204,2019-12-09T15:58:14.221Z,11989,0,9,8,1,1,0,21.8,67185,anon2860100070,anon3645153774,"[quote=""anon3645153774, post:25, topic:11989""] Thank you again for your presence and your energy [/quote] Thanks dear Olivier for your presence, energy, time, and contributions. We hear each other in January after your Christmas break. Probably the next one can be about Holochain and setup a demo of the Identity tools. I will check." 27,67208,2019-12-09T16:23:51.318Z,11989,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,67175,anon1753543892,anon3513303872,"@anon3513303872, maybe this thread is also interesting for you: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/economic-bridging-to-a-more-thrivable-world/11452" 28,67212,2019-12-09T17:42:55.823Z,11989,0,8,7,1,1,0,6.6,67178,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:23, topic:11989""] Commons [/quote] @anon4024333396 It would be lovely to count with you for the Commons event we will be organising with Michel next year. Are you coming to Europe between mid-February and mid-June? Lots of love, Liliana." 29,67382,2019-12-11T20:04:07.434Z,11989,2,6,5,1,0,0,16.2,67179,anon995479489,anon2860100070,"Hi @anon2860100070, I totally agree that technology has the potential to enable thousands of people to be together, collaborating, something that was impossible before. This is why think the annotation layer is so important. The annotation layer enables us to connect and collaborate on any page. So people can meet where they are rather than having to go to a walled garden. What kinds of organizations are best poised to adopt CI technologies?" 30,67848,2019-12-21T15:36:57.282Z,11989,1,7,6,1,1,0,11.4,67382,anon2860100070,anon995479489,"[quote=""anon995479489, post:29, topic:11989""] the annotation layer [/quote] Hi dear Daveed, I would love to hear more about the annotation layer. Do you have a video about it? a preferred project contributing to this?" 31,67849,2019-12-21T15:38:29.696Z,11989,1,9,8,1,1,0,11.8,67382,anon2860100070,anon995479489,"[quote=""anon995479489, post:29, topic:11989""] CI technologies [/quote] I would say that organizations working with agile or sociocratic teams, as they already have the mindset of 'flat democracy' and openness, sharing. What do you think?" 32,67850,2019-12-21T15:41:07.956Z,11989,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,67849,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"@anon3513303872 @anon3645153774 @anon3093654461 @anon1753543892 @anon3828707713 @anon3747875924 @anon3554387720 I am sharing my thoughts and feelings about the event on this page: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/cooperation-at-scale/12239" 33,67871,2019-12-22T07:43:33.206Z,11989,0,10,9,1,0,0,52.0,67848,anon995479489,anon2860100070,"Hi @anon2860100070 Marc Andreeseen - creator of the first Web browser Mosaic - says the Internet has a Big Missing Feature: Annotation. https://genius.com/Marc-andreessen-why-andreessen-horowitz-is-investing-in-rap-genius-annotated, The Webpage was always meant to be a Launchpad for Insight and Debate on it’s contents. Annotations were removed from the Mosaic browser in 1995 during the fight for survival with Microsoft Explorer for lack of storage - there was no Cloud! I am most intrigued by his closing statement in that article, ""I often wonder anon2696444391 the Internet would have turned out differently if users had been able to annotate everything – to add new layers of knowledge to all knowledge, on and on, ad infinitum."" Here is a slide presentation from a project that I like called Hypothesis (http://hypothes.is) about annotation: https://docsend.com/view/es4euyk In the future, in what I call the the #OverWeb, today's web page is simply the contextual footprint for intertwingled worlds of information, interactions, and experiences emanating from content elements on the web page." 34,67872,2019-12-22T07:49:37.426Z,11989,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,67850,anon995479489,anon2860100070,"Yes to those groups. As I was watching a video on diversity and inclusion, I had the thought that organizations that have embraced diversity for competitive advantage may already be thinking along the lines of collective intelligence. Also, groups that are committed to collaboration and want to explore anon2696444391 technology can scale collaboration." 35,71605,2020-03-18T00:12:15.760Z,11989,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,66239,anon995479489,anon2860100070,"When will we know if the project gets funded? I am working on a collective intelligence project for COVID19. The COVID19 Mapping project aims to crowdmap the online information ecology for the COVID19 virus including second and third order effects of the virus. The project utilizes Bridgit ‘s mapping capability to catalyze a Massive Online Research Collaboration on COVID19. Massive Online Research Collaborations HELP researchers connect and interact with other researchers on any webpage WITHOUT any coordination EVEN IF they don't know each other or speak the same language WITH a self-generating interactive knowledge map. AI will monitor the knowledge map and send alerts about emerging threats, false news, and misinformation. Outcomes of the project include a first-generation interactive knowledge map, a shared context for collaboration and communication, a cohesive community, and faster better answers that accelerate insight, innovation, and learning." 1,70431,2020-02-19T21:36:02.336Z,12693,0,7,6,3,0,0,61.4,70431,anon3513303872,anon3513303872,"I participated in a devcamp organized by Holochain and would like to share my knowledge in Brussels. Does 10th March in the evening sound good? https://www.meetup.com/blockchain-garage-brussels/events/268825108/" 2,70476,2020-02-22T10:24:56.189Z,12693,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,70431,anon3828707713,anon3513303872,@anon1753543892 3,70477,2020-02-22T10:42:05.780Z,12693,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,70431,anon1753543892,anon3513303872,@anon3513303872 thanks for coming here! Sounds very interesting. How many people are you expecting? Could we maybe document and share your presentation on the platform? Who would you like to invite? Is it more for developers or also a wider audience? 4,71014,2020-03-07T12:04:10.740Z,12693,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,70431,anon3513303872,anon3513303872,"It is more for developers, I'd expect5 to 10 people." 5,71566,2020-03-17T19:46:56.511Z,12693,0,3,2,1,0,0,5.6,70431,anon3203746736,anon3513303872,Did you hold the event? 1,69691,2020-01-31T16:07:54.163Z,12579,0,8,7,16,0,0,81.6,69691,anon3824014683,anon3824014683,"Hi All! Nick Meyne here from [Resonate](https://resonate.is/) - the ethical music-streaming coop. We are working on a better, decentralised identity system for our community of listeners, musicians and creators.. and any other 'storytellers' wanting to join our co-operative ecosystem. Here's a [2-minute video](https://youtu.be/7PKI7lOyQjo) which explains a anon2488317424 more. Contact us if you are interested. Or maybe just [sign up](https://resonate.is/join/) for some great new music :grinning: Best wishes, Nick" 2,71564,2020-03-17T19:26:18.957Z,12579,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,69691,anon3203746736,anon3824014683,Hey that looks like a very interesting project. Nice site design too. 1,58860,2019-09-06T08:33:01.765Z,10696,0,17,16,12,0,0,78.4,58860,anon3828707713,anon3828707713," Photo credit: Screenshot of ""The Frontiers of Impact Tech"" report **the exponential roadmap** **frontiers of climate tech** **systemic views** fishbowl Discussion _____________ ## Owen Gaffney: **Good news:** The next decade will be fastest economic transition in history. The Momentum is there and humanity is good at rapid change when it has had a vision. In china every week 5000 electric busses. Shenzen, in last 5 years has transitioned its' entire bussfleet to electic busses. Next, they will be replacing the cars. The driver is that people do not want to live in polluted cities. In Norway 20% of all cars purchased in 2019 were electric cars. This coincides with an exponential growth in adoption of alternative energy sources: much higher than has been predicted by the International Energy Agency:
![IEA Solar Predictions for Global Installations](https://2oqz471sa19h3vbwa53m33yj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/iea-predictions-solar.jpg) _*Forecasts from the IEA are pulled from their World Energy Outlook (WEO) reports, which are published each year. Meanwhile, the “PV History” line above is the actual data for photovoltaic (PV) installations each year.*_
Second piece : that visual about exposnenental Third: British politics. Even in this midle of this storm in june this year british govt created legislation to mget to 0 emitions by 2050. Even though cannot agree to leave EU. Cost of radical economic change is same as their previous investments, 1% of GDP of the UK. And that doesnt accunt for all bbenefits, health etc (People do notSolar): Solar cell growth vs World energy outlook (weo) - They have failed to predict the scale and speed - double yield of electricity from wind and solar. BY 2030 half ofenergy production is coming from those sources. Bad news: - Google ngram on the word sustainable - IN 30 years every second word in a sentence will be sustainable - but when you do search for world exponential we are on a level, it stables out Unsafe territory; Extreme events in 2018/19 - 2018 Unprecedented heatwave across northern himsphere - Extreme freezes lasting very long time - Mozambique unprecedented hurricanes - protection system built - 45 degrees in australia - 40 in france -hurricane dorian -hurricanes moving slower and getting stronger - drawing up more water agetting more power - hurricane harvey staying over housanon2863106368e - what you can explin - WMO statement - Humans have lived mostly thrugh the ice ages except for the last 10;000 years where it has been stable; the holoscene our garden of eden and now we ar at the end of that with small changs wreacking havoc - Tempuural trends for past 65 MA potential geohistorical analogs for climate change - what we do in next 50 years will have impact for next 10,000 years - have done as much impact in 50 as in previous 65 million years - visualisation of flobe changes (video) on mass trends from GRACE: lots of instability of our systems, amazon could turn from huge store of carbon into a savanna that emits lots odf carbon - Meandering of the jetstream, because warming of artics you get troughs - where we have the breadbaskets of the world, and we have a limited understanding of anon2696444391 they are going change - Changing risk landscale due o large-scale discontinuities (IPCC assesmebt reoirts abd 1.5 C special -(vis) tipping elements - vis- Global map of potential tipping cascads - if we cross one could they cascade into another? Every child's birthright is a stable resilient planet. That is now at risk. Published paper- what is trajectory to stablise climate- carbon law I Rockstrom, Geffnery, Rogeli, Meinhausen Science 24 March 2017 - Why matter? the integrated economic assesment models make clear that we cannot wait - Can we half the emissions by 2030? Climate roadmap says it is possible, 30 solutions that are viable. Focus Areas: Energy syupply, industry, buildings, transport, food consumption, aggriculture and forestry HOW do transformations happen in society? Transformations are usually result of combination of Have movement tipping point: fossil fuel costs, if we can get wind and solar, new tecknologies down to prces of old technologies. And - Last year No country was talking about net zero emissions - This year: huge change - Proposed Tech companies influence decisions of 4 billion people, every day Seven strategies to change compass of tech sector, ti the low energy demand (visualisation - find it!) - Scale of the transformation is unprecedneted (global), not the speed - People in the room will be critical to driving that transition The next decade must be the fastest economic transition in history: this has to be the compass of all our careers and focus for next years ----- Benjamin: We need to achieve prosperity and achieve decarbonisation Technology, policy, sustainable behaviour change at once and reinforce each other - Benjamin is engineer, focuses on tech, - POC21, was frustrated because they are all nice, only one Faircup went anywhere - was frustrated, started thinking what can tech and scientic sectors do beyond - goodtechlab.io mapped less than 200 innovation areas and impact tech trends where technology can achieve impaxct goals -Energy - transportation Fossil feuls are in most of the proucts we use through platics: companies trying to replace petrochemical with mio based materials/ Mycelium mushrooms to replace packaginf Food sector: How to reduce waste - between harvest an site of distribution and consumption - what happens at consumption end: Minnow company - help restos reduce food waste, e.g by half - How we can shit diet away from meat consumption: New protein sources, Ynsect: giant robotic farm to produce feed for fish, perfect day, synthetic mealts from muscle grown in lab - animal-free milk, use tech to find plantbased - Using data to provide better finance and insurance, or better climate prediction; or using AI/imaging for high precision farming ______________ Emissions reduction_________ --------------------- Negative Emissions soliutions----------------- CCU carbon capture and use: Flameworks, - Thereare proposals to store it and economically viable pathways to make use of it, because it is a vauable material. E.G some companies use it to produce building materials, finnishone called solar foods make proteins out of carbon - animal feeds, Lanzatech use microbes that grow on gasses to produce synthetic fuels, e/g produced jetfuels - Natual based approaches : carbon farming and regenerative ag, turning farms into carbon sink; research lab at sony use data and ...calculate what is best plant species - Cometfarm: blochain/dogitl currenly - Regeneration/restornation of nture: machine learning to measure/monitor restauration and carbon offsets - Bioengineering: what is optimal patterns for planting treas - There are bad economic incentives for protecting amazon. There is proposal for monetising diversity by mapping entire genome with earth genome project and then put in a giant catalogue that scientists etc can use to produce new products, part of money from use of IP would flow back to support indegenous communities so they dont destory forest - - Investing; Etic, Matter - anon2696444391 you can measure more precisely the impact of companies. - Most of those projects are not non profit - the annual market of SDG solutions is 12 Trillion USD ------------------------------------ Manuela - -Many if/challenges for those to work. anon2071999133gers attached to technolsolutionism. - BEanon3708943593: bioenergu carbon capture and storage. Growing crops without use of energy, and use carbon storage . Problem: You would need 3x size of india land to offset current energy usage, put preassure on land for farming, water consumption - Another is geoengineering. E.G Mirrios . What if they stop working - all heat immediately combe to earth - Global governance: who would regulate them? - Article "" What is Geoengineering"" - author James Temple - Impact Management Project: put together ad created consenses around the different tools and methods around impact management.. To create a standarising approach to make them more contextual? - E.G Project Drawdown How to start to push towards impact tech management - Does or may cause harm: Act to avoid harm - Benefit Stakeholders - Contributeto solutions _Mariana Mazzucato: Mission Oriented Researchand Innovaion in the European Union ---- Goodtechlab.io ---- Exponentialroadmap.org ----------------------- **Need to slow down** Guy advising In shipping industry you can slow down carbon emissions by 20% if you slow down the speed by 12 Knots (check number). Example of chinese busses going faster, short sighted victory because china still largely running on carbon industry. You draw lithium from huge desert areas, impact of your lithium on the environment. With simple changes you can reduce carbon emissions. Owen: on busses in chinaa - the transition from coal to renewables is happening much faster than you think - we can see that china is shifting its economy. American guy : concerned citizen, find it very interesting anon2696444391 to create changes in the political systems.I come from texas where it is difficult to explain. How do we get this movement going? As an individual I feel lost to change the incentive from profit to wellness to everyone? Wes Woman coming from oil and gas, decided to leave the industry but was asking what can you do? Ver hard to orient yourself, good lucky to run into the right person, a person who offered me a job in a company that was doing good things. Investment into different kinds of people being different kinds of impacters? -------- Fredrich does stuff with food: am part of NGO trying to make foodtech accessible - foodstack. A question: How many in here would like to get hands on involved in something that creates a possible impact? (everyone) Alot of people want to do something, but not sure what. Then we turn to institutions and other org that are used to doing things for us. But this doesnt work - we need to. Automated vertical farming - solution is not perfect but we are getting close. Mushroom production. We have had transition from healthy to unhealthy diets, we know the transition can happen very quickly. ""Everyone wants to live healthier"". Whynot provide better alternatives through tastes, flavour etc. ________________ Incubation of participatory innovation and cocreative livelihoods. _______________ Investment in the school system, what is similar thinking arount climate transition. Nordic secret - folkhogskola, personal and skill dvelopment - being able to have softer landing/transition. So people can become part of this transition, find their place - skillwise, livelihoodwise but also identify and social surroundings -building networks that see, sustain and reinform norms, culture and behaviours needed to move . Personal incubation and acceleration for climate transition. ----------------------- Empowering people who can make solutions for themselves, unleashing creativity and anon2945747231nuity that is not about ""high tech innovation"". ------------ Key: Feelings of sense of lack of control Disinformation campaigns - Firsty its about inequality: * in more equal societies consumption is tempered down * We have more trust, and better collective decision making * What we see with populism and rise of nationalism sanon2696444391ws that rapid change is totally possible * Seeing it in economics: market forces for sustainable solutions is there. Questions: what is different this time with the movement? because market forces are with us? were they before for other changes?" 2,71089,2020-03-09T15:46:44.371Z,10696,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,58860,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,ping @anon2252645440 1,68769,2020-01-15T16:03:57.016Z,12409,0,30,29,50,0,0,346.0,68769,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![communitycalls%20logo%2025%202-01|690x566](upload://79ACZBUQnhB9OyDcOO2VEUPAqdV.png) *Hello dear community,* *2020 is upon us and we are restarting the biweekly Community call schedule. This year we would like to use that slot to feature topics, projects and community members.* @anon3005461236 has agreed to open the roaster with a webinar on Open Source Software. # 1. Webinar ""Let's Open Up!"": 28th of January, (Tuesday 18:00 to 19:00 CET) # 2. Webinar ""Knowing the Problem"": 11th of February, (Tuesday 18:00 to 19:00 CET) # 3. Webinar ""Working together!"": 25th of February, (Tuesday 18:00 to 19:00 CET) # 1. Let's Open Up! Learn about anon2696444391 to use and support opensource! One of the learning from @anon3005461236 's workshop on teaching teachers open source was that ""‘Not even software developers’ seems aware of the fundamentals of open source and the four freedoms. "". After working with and researching Open Source Software for years, he wants to share his learnings and tips with us and work on figuring out anon2696444391 to further the FOSS environment. For this session - the short agenda is as: 1. Welcome everyone and short introductions. 2. A presentation of the outcome from the “Teaching teachers open-source workshop”. 3. Plan next IRL meeting (topic, venue, event marketing). Everyone welcome to participate that wants to help build an anon1577251828 community on open source. ![outcome_opensource|690x455](upload://j6lYBDUKV29LwOj1arHkbjsx6e2.png) # 2. Webinar ""Knowing the Problem"": The first Meeting offered a very interesting discussion with some great FOSS activists with firm tech backgrounds. During the last week, @anon2868057530 and @anon2197402769 have explored the situation of It and opensource education in their regions (see posts below). DIscussing those findings and the connected questions such as **""Do they (the ""end users"" (Teachers, students, etc. ) know there is a problem?""** WE will try to invite some experts from the teaching background and discuss further the direction and form off an approach to further Opensource in teaching. @anon2868057530, maybe you could also talk a bit about sustainability for Open source projects? [anon2696444391 to make opensource projects sustainable](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/economic-sustainability-for-open-source-projects/12082) @anon2868057530, would be great to have you there! # 3. Webinar ""Working together!"" In the third discussion, we want to sketch out a concrete plan for further collaboration via an intensive full-day workshop and whom to invite to that event. @anon3005461236, looking forward to see this project and your workshops grow! or the FOSS environment (@anon2197402769, what do you think would be a good topic?) Please add those interested in the topic and those who should become interested :): ping @anon2577017204, @anon2873026556, @anon930036515, @anon3197437925 would you also be interested in joining and maybe contributing or inviting some more people? Edgeryders Team is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. Topic: Biweekly Community Calls Time: 28th Jan, 11th of Feb, 25th of Feb, 18:00 CET (every second Tuesday) Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/3063210325 Meeting ID: 306 321 0325 ### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png)" 2,68784,2020-01-15T18:31:52.622Z,12409,1,23,22,1,0,0,14.6,68769,anon2868057530,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892 sound great, thanks for the ping. I'll see if some of the participants from the re:web session that are active on ssb would be open to also participate — I don't recall exactly who was in that session :laughing: — when a time is set!" 3,68813,2020-01-16T11:33:08.340Z,12409,2,22,21,2,0,0,54.4,68784,anon2197402769,anon2868057530,"Besides me (totally my topic, attendance not possible on 21th Jan) I guess all the people involved with Software Development (at least @anon659222949 and @anon3197437925 come to my mind) should be panon2945747231d? The topic is extremely broad, a one hour slot will surely not suffice to satisfy the speakers and participants needs :). Maybe it makes sense to label this as part of a series already (Lets Open up! ""Open Source and < 3 main discussion points >"") or ""Towards Freedom: The FOSS environment"")." 4,68823,2020-01-16T12:08:41.980Z,12409,0,21,20,1,0,0,39.2,68813,anon1753543892,anon2197402769,"@anon2197402769, great idea! Let's make a series starting with the 28thof Jan. We can brainstorm here for the topics and featured participants! :)" 5,68839,2020-01-16T19:40:45.213Z,12409,0,24,23,1,1,0,9.8,68813,anon659222949,anon2197402769,"[quote=""anon2197402769, post:3, topic:12409""] I guess all the people involved with Software Development (at least @anon659222949 and @anon3197437925 come to my mind) should be panon2945747231d? [/quote] Indeed fits my interests. However, I'm not available on the 21st or the 28th. I'll keep an eye on it as the series continues." 6,69509,2020-01-28T12:55:23.154Z,12409,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,68769,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,ping @anon 7,69517,2020-01-28T13:47:33.581Z,12409,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,68769,anon2786360199,anon1753543892,"I unfortunately cannot make it as I’m organizing a 3D printing workshop at my university’s new makerspace, but I added a minor update to [anon2696444391 to make open source sustainable](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/economic-sustainability-for-open-source-projects/12082) and would love to get a summary of what was discussed (a brief one is fine)." 8,69539,2020-01-28T20:28:03.656Z,12409,2,17,16,1,0,0,63.4,68769,anon2868057530,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892, @anon2197402769, @anon3005461236, @anon3203746736 Thanks for the call. I was reflecting a bit afterwards and I thinking of it at 50,000 feet while picking up a new leash for my dog. The background is I have been listening into a few of the OCI lab mena lectures, and chose to dig down into one of the books/models that they are using to aid the mena entrepreneurs. @anon When reading this book they describe defining a hypothesis then testing it out with your perspective clients. The test is partially to answer these questions: * The customer has a problem * The customer understands he or she has a problem * The customer is actively searching for a solution and has a timetable for finding it * The problem is painful enough the customer has cobbled together an interim solution * The customer has committed, or can quickly acquire, budget dollars to solve the problem And the book continues to describe the {End Users, Influencers, Recommenders, Economic Buyers, Decision Makers, Saboteurs}; all of which would exist in either at a national or kommune scale within the education system in Sweden. While business related, the anecdote on “Customer Validation” is anon2373157426 telling, since some of the solutions may fit this model. > “You need to pick up the phone and call the top five accounts on your sales pipeline. Ask them this: If you give them your product today for free, are they prepared to install and use it across their department and company? If the answer is no, you have absolutely no customers on your forecast who will be prepared to buy from you in the next six months.” This I don't know, and could be more rhetorical in nature, is there “pain” being felt from current solutions? This might be more of an open question we could explore." 9,69541,2020-01-28T21:22:23.205Z,12409,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,69539,anon3203746736,anon2868057530,"Erik will hopefully reply, but I got the impression that the pain is something insidious that comes from early conditioning to using a few set products from the biggest companies, some of which give their stuff free if you take ads along with it. There are video services in the USA for schools that has this same business model. One is https://www.schooltube.com/ They seem harmless enough. But the orientation is definitely towards being an enduser and not part of those who create, except inside those products. When we were on our phone call I had the thought that there are forces trying to move the Net closer to being more like the auto industry. And in some ways it is already there. But as long as there is open source, it doesn't have to be like that and can still be an amazing creative medium for seemingly anything you want to do. But I also think that civics and social responsibility are topics schools try to teach - anon2696444391 to be good citizens. In this day and age, that cannot be divorced or separated from information technology and its mass use. So, in addition to learning anon2696444391 to be creative by trying or studying open source, it has a civics lesson and philosophy built right into its core. Maybe if educators were more aware of this...?" 10,69584,2020-01-29T11:47:20.203Z,12409,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,69539,anon3828707713,anon2868057530,ping @anon2252645440 11,69608,2020-01-29T16:25:56.886Z,12409,0,12,11,1,0,0,67.4,68769,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"Another aspect of this we touched on in the call is anon2696444391 strongly the big companies will oppose the proliferation of open source if it competes with their own products. I think Erik used the term ""war."" I agree. Do any of you remember the One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) project that Nicholas Negroponte and others set up 10-15 years ago? That was an open source laptop that could even be powered up with a hand crank. It was designed to be as disruptive as it was useful. The Director of the project was former Media Lab Director Walter Bender (Nadia and I know him pretty well - and he is still a friend.) In 2007 or 8 I was in Cambridge on a job interview. I visited Walter in his OLPC office. I knew the project was struggling but wasn't clear on why. He told me that when they arranged with Ecuador and one neighboring country, maybe Peru, not sure, to bring a big number of those laptops to the kids in those countries Microsoft and Dell both went to the leadership of those countries and told them straight out that if they do not abandon the OLPC project completely, Microsoft and Dell (and who know what other companies, but those two for sure) told them that they would no longer support the government offices that rely on Office and Dell computers. I'm sure you can guess what happened next - OLPC was denied 100% by those countries. The chilling effect was pervasive and was a big part of killing the project. Those guys do not screw around. To me this is yet one more reason why open source needs to grow, not shrink. I think also that anyone who opposes smart city stuff with a viable alternative or reason not to do it will encounter similar opposition." 12,69672,2020-01-31T10:39:45.765Z,12409,0,10,9,1,0,0,37.0,68769,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Thank you very very much @anon3005461236 for your presentation of your findings and championing this topic and the development of something that can help the spread of FOSS in teaching! I would like to post the next invitation in a few teacher groups on Facebook if that ok? @anon2252645440, maybe some OCI lab participants are also interested in this discussion and would join in? Looking forward to the next call on this topic on the 11th of Feb. Same time (18:00 to 19:00 CET), same Zoom Room ( [ https://zoom.us/j/3063210325](https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=zoom%20room%3A%20https%3A%2F%2Fzoom.us%2Fj%2F3063210325&source=calendar)). Should I make a new post? What should the focus topic points for this meeting? Who would like to add their perspective?" 13,69866,2020-02-05T06:44:56.221Z,12409,1,8,7,1,0,0,41.6,68769,anon2197402769,anon1753543892,"Funny enough I bumped into somebody some days ago, who is school director, informatics teacher and co-creator of the curriculum of IT courses for schools in one of Germanys federal state. Did not sound too bad (they want to play a lot with https://scratch.mit.edu/ apparently, and relatively few product-based application teaching â la: ""This is anon2696444391 Adobe Photoshop looks like""). Also he said that the teachers really want to teach informatics but are rather scared. So they do offer workshops for teachers where the teachers learn anon2696444391 to implement the curriculum within their school and these workshops are very well visited apparently (overbooked). The general situation is different though, because in that federal state it is not mandatory for the pupils to attend the informatics course (pupils have some choices what they want to pursue) and other details of the school system. The time and setting did not allow for full-on discussion about open source, underlying values and all the sweet stuff we touched in our call, but interesting coincidence." 14,69869,2020-02-05T07:38:55.764Z,12409,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,69866,anon3828707713,anon2197402769,super interesting - do you know if they would be up for a chat with us? 15,69871,2020-02-05T07:41:59.210Z,12409,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,69869,anon2197402769,anon3828707713,I do not think we are there yet and I doubt that we will stay in contact - but who knows. Right now I do not see me investing time in networking in that direction - there is too much leads to follow in other directions. 16,69879,2020-02-05T10:17:38.946Z,12409,0,11,10,1,0,0,37.2,69871,anon1753543892,anon2197402769,"Fair enough. But maybe you could forward a link or invitation to the discussion here? Thank you very much :)" 17,69936,2020-02-06T14:31:34.054Z,12409,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,68769,anon2868057530,anon1753543892,"In a moment of “out of curiosity” I ran though my [local districts](https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/departments/education/k12/content/anglophone_sector/curriculum_anglophone.html) curriculum to see if there were any opportunities that would lend themselves as openings for using open source tools. This is partially due to the fact that while I know the equivalent exists in Sweden, my swedish skills are pretty loose. This was also to see if this problem has been solved elsewhere :wink: The takeaway from this quick check is there is most of the goals and outcomes are pretty much in the 3-r category; reading writing and arithmetic — with a foundational text overlying outcomes at https://www2.gnb.ca/content/dam/gnb/Departments/ed/pdf/K12/curric/TechnologyVocational/TechnologyEducation.pdf for the broader region. A few items that are very interesting from this latter document: * They have applied a competence model (see page 5.) * No technology is proscribed, but the actions are (ibid.) * Ethical dilemmas are highlighted. (ibid.) The IT education curriculum also doesn't mention any vendor, but highlights to use appropriate tools such as python or R to meet learning objectives. https://www2.gnb.ca/content/dam/gnb/Departments/ed/pdf/K12/curric/TechnologyVocational/ComputerScience110.pdf I'm not sure if this is helpful; and if I look at the model[†](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/lets-open-up-an-open-source-webinar-community-call/12409/8?u=emile) above; with the low awareness of open source solutions, does the “End User” know they have a problem?" 18,69937,2020-02-06T15:10:29.609Z,12409,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,69936,anon3828707713,anon2868057530,ping @anon3005461236 ^^ 19,69939,2020-02-06T16:21:19.162Z,12409,0,12,11,1,0,0,52.4,68769,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"I updated the first post to include 3 dates and titles for the webinar series and started posting invitations to a few teacher groups on Facebook. (ping @anon3005461236 also ping @anon Looking forward to the next discussion :)" 20,70102,2020-02-11T14:15:28.284Z,12409,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,68769,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Hello, here is a reminder for the call today: Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/3063210325" 21,70110,2020-02-11T15:29:56.124Z,12409,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,70102,anon2868057530,anon1753543892,"@anon Can someone act a a scribe and put a summary of the conversation? :pray:" 22,70117,2020-02-11T16:16:20.966Z,12409,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,70110,anon1753543892,anon2868057530,I will take notes 23,70127,2020-02-11T18:10:42.276Z,12409,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,68769,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Thank you @anon3005461236, @anon2197402769 and @anon3203746736 for a very interesting and productive call. # Here the notes from the call, which also sketch out some of the plan to come : ``` > *> Check in:* > *> Felix:* > *> Great Storm (Sabine). But not too much damage.* > *> John:* > *> Has read this morning: No rain in Feb in california! Quite Alarming. Going to anon1577251828 get together in Sicily. His mother is anon2373157426 ill at the moment and taking care of her is currently very demanding.* > *> Erik:* > *> Working a lot but heading out on a family trip in the north of Sweden.* > *> Maria:* > *> I am good. Still no snow so! :(. Engaged in some good discussions in developing NGI for incubator purposes and a pitch for a workshop series.* ``` **Notes:** Maria posted invitations to the call in teacher facebook groups, but nobody reacted. Ergo: we have to get in contact differently! Erik emphasises the need and advantages of an direct intense in person workshop! * Discussion on digital auanon2863106368omy - and actions What do we need for a workshop? We need to make two lists: 1. Topics 2. People to invite Topic list: Examples: * Data sovereignty: * Digital Auanon2863106368omy. * How do you maintain the freedom of your own data * How do you keep your password save * GDPR and what it means for teachers! (as a entry door into the topic) * How do you deal with other people's data? * Subscriber to your life?...Ingrown subscriptions. Which programs do you learn to use? * Dependence on subscription software * A divided society - subscribers vs owners. * A divided society - consumers vs creators. * A divided society - “free and capable” vs “enslaved and incapable” * Understanding the language of terms and conditions * Do you own your money? Felix story of speaking to an IT involved teacher: Spontaneously met a headmaster of a small school in Germany. That person was part of the team (12 persons) developing the IT curriculum for schools for that federal state (for age ~10-16 yrs). Before that he ran a company equipping schools with hard and software and providing workshops. (probably one week workshops on what to teach and anon2696444391 to teach in IT following that federal states informatics curriculum). (open source honey:). (you can apparently finance and engage with beekeeping for teachers currently, as that is a projects many schools or teachers would like to install)) The demand for such workshops is very high. More than are provided. The teachers feel that they can not provide the skills for good IT teaching, as there is always some pupils ahead of them. What do you think about developing a paid workshop offer for teachers to use open source software? (open hive: http://openhivescale.org/ , but apparently there are multiple projects: https://www.osbeehives.com/collections/source-files , … ) * YES! Positive professional pressure * YES! Sustainability of the project! Another set of workshops: These could be such concrete (practical) offers for teachers. * Monitoring your beehive with open source software and hardware. * Automatically watering your flower with open source software. * Run your own cloud on open source software. There are different forms of workshops: Development and Offer Workshops. > next development workshop will help to develop strategy for offer workshops > offered workshops are “offered to schools and teachers” Links: https://scratch.mit.edu/ http://openhivescale.org/ https://www.media.mit.edu/people/mres/overview/ (john can connect us to those people) Who do we need to contact/invite? (concrete names!) # This is a Wiki post. Everyone can edit it and add to it. Please feel free to do so even if you were not in the call :)" 24,70536,2020-02-25T10:14:35.396Z,12409,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,68769,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Hello, here is a reminder for the call today: Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/3063210325" 25,70575,2020-02-25T18:13:10.731Z,12409,2,8,7,1,0,0,16.6,68769,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"> # Here are the note from the call from the 25th of Feb: # Topical post will follow per session topic. The next call on the 10th of March will be on password security using open source. Potential workshop locations: * Blanon2066456771de * At schools (come to them to lower the barrier) * ... Topics for a workshop series Open source and current questions; “Technology for everyone” 1. Logged in and out - How do I manage all the passwords in a safe way - with open source software. 2. Linux, the operating system for future (-) creators, basic introduction for teachers. 3. Bitcoin and crypto currencies - anon2696444391 do we teach future generations about the new digital economy? 4. Deep Internet, anon2696444391 do I get there with open source tools and why do I need to learn anon2696444391 to swim? Material: https://darknetdiaries.com/ Why do we need to teach about this? Children/pupils data is sold there, pupils might buy their drugs there, ... 5. What is a cloud and anon2696444391 do I use them - with open source software. 6. My wifi, anon2696444391 does it work? 7. Kids and the internet, what experiences are there? 8. Working on the Internet, anon2696444391 does a professional life start there? Students working extra? What does attract teachers? Where will they walk away from? We focus on rephrasing the workshop titles. Another strategy might be to host an event in a school, but to attract the parents, assuming that teachers than also would come (e.g. because they fear the next days all kids will speak about bitcoin [or any other of the above topic], but they - the teachers - don’t know anything about it). Maybe we rephrase it with potential questions from children to teachers for each workshop topic? Or by opening a story from “everyday” school and teachers life? Sustainability Price: 0.200 Bitcoin cash ;) or 200 SEK ---> For the Blanon2066456771de hosted event. >> think again about the message of the price. Price: 10000SEK for a booked session at the local “school/educational center”. * Or you could offer to come to schools >> who asks schools anon2696444391? >> we need a pitch deck? Website * Contact local (walldorf) school for parent workshop offer On the platform: One thread per workshop topic. Ask people for input, opinions on the agenda and participation. Timeline: Discussion on the platform: March Planning first events: April Inviting participants: April Financing of international participation - perhaps through some EU project or the like. ### Session 1 - May 2020 Logged in and out - How do I manage all the passwords in a safe way - with open source software. Looking for: Someone who can demo keepass2 The participants will get a perk: “Basic Internet self defence” ### Session 2 - July 2020 Linux, the operating system for future (-) creators, basic introduction for teachers. Bring your laptop and get Linux running on it. (And/or a USB Pendrive, to have Linux on it without influencing your current computer setup). Naked. Looking for: Someone who can install a Linux operating system on laptops and sanon2696444391 some basic applications and usage. ### Session 3 - September 2020 Bitcoin and crypto currencies - anon2696444391 do we teach future generations about the new digital economy? Naked. Looking for: Someone who can sanon2696444391 and help people get their first crypto wallet (open source versions) started. ### Session 4 - November 2020 Deep Internet, anon2696444391 do I get there, with open source tools and why do I need to learn anon2696444391 to swim? Material: [https://darknetdiaries.com/ ](https://darknetdiaries.com/) Why do we need to teach about this? Children/pupils data is sold there, pupils might buy their drugs there. Looking for: Someone who can sanon2696444391 the TOR browser and some sides and perhaps also talk about the darknet in general. ### Session 5 - January 2021 What is a cloud and anon2696444391 do I use them - with open source software. Looking for: Someone who knows about clouds in general. ### Session 6 - March 2021 My wifi, anon2696444391 does it work? Looking for: Someone who know anon2696444391 Wifi works do:s and dont:s - open source connection. ### Session 7 - May 2021 Kids and the internet, what experiences are there? Looking for: Someone who have experiences of kids and the Internet. ### Session 8 - July 2021 Working on the Internet, anon2696444391 does a professional life start there? Students working extra? Looking for: Someone who has done paid work on sites like Fiverr or something similar. Experiences from that. How does being paid for work on the internet work? What do influencers do? How do they get paid. ### Session 9 - September 2021 So, open source is for free, so anon2696444391 the heck can I make money out of it? How is it financed? Looking for: Someone who makes money in the open source domain and can tell anon2696444391. Micro-exam/certificate/gamification/perk-system thing. Something to put in your CV thing. Yeah. That. Stickers. SWAG. Maybe a signature on the BC blockchain. Check timeline with Blanon2066456771de. (maria) thank you @anon3005461236 and @anon2197402769. ping @anon3203746736" 26,71087,2020-03-09T15:38:47.528Z,12409,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,70575,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"ping @anon2252645440 please look at the topics above and check which would be interesting for OCI lab participants to join the discussion." 27,71088,2020-03-09T15:42:43.369Z,12409,0,8,7,1,1,0,6.6,70575,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:25, topic:12409""] ### Session 9 - September 2021 So, open source is for free, so anon2696444391 the heck can I make money out of it? How is it financed? Looking for: Someone who makes money in the open source domain and can tell anon2696444391. Micro-exam/certificate/gamification/perk-system thing. Something to put in your CV thing. Yeah. That. Stickers. SWAG. Maybe a signature on the BC blockchain. Check timeline with Blanon2066456771de. (maria) [/quote] @anon2252645440 just suggested that this one should be earlier, potentially the first one. Emphasise the opportunities perspective." 1,53258,2019-05-09T07:00:35.286Z,9869,0,33,32,429,0,0,2331.6,53258,anon1577251828,anon1577251828,"Congratulations, you've made it to retirement age, and without a pension or investment plan, you'll have to hack your way through your golden years like you did your youth. Have no fear, with a anon2488317424 bit of innovative thinking and peer collaboration, you can seamlessly cruise through your elder dementia in style!

Many precarious workers do manage to make it to retirement, and it just might happen to you. Some Americans have turned to ""outsourcing eldercare"" by shipping their parents off to India, to live like a Maharaja on $2000/month. In Japan, the film ""Mezon do Himiko"" tells the story of a retirement home for elderly transvestites and homosexuals. They managed to fund their retirement from a successful Tokyo nightclub and wealthy donors.

But are Ledgestriders™ so well prepared for our retirement? Do you really think people will want to read your pitch decks, funding or job applications when you're wearing a diaper? It's time to start exploring options for people who aren't part of the rank and file society before it's too late.

But you are now 96 years old and your robotic care assistant accidentally sucked up your dentures into the \#opensource vacuum cleaner because the IoT fridge and stove were chatting away and inadvertently knocked the robot offline.

It's really not a problem because a neighbour in your HackGrace has a 3D printer and (after downloading a free 3D file off Thingiverse) you manage to print a new set of teeth. Unfortunately, they are not the right size and you wind up gumming your food at that evening's Disco Soup event, getting chunks of organic radish all over your sustainable milk-fiber bib. Since your robotic helper is on the fritz, you decide to wash yourself off in the hipster bathing facility but slip and break your hip.

Again, your mates have this problem covered and start using 3D printed bones to grow you a new leg. Unfortunately, the operation doesn't go well and you get an infection, anon2696444391ever, there is a cure for those with sufficient computational capacity: you can manufacture your own patent-free medicine based on your individual DNA.
Hooray! You win! you have advanced to the next level of retirement: that of constantly badgering your kids to come and visit you! But not everyone will be so lucky in the future, so it is time to explore the different possibilities that can be made to exist for people outside the ""system"". ## Over the next two years Edgeryders is convening a community around a next generation internet that supports humans to live well together. We are calling it Internet of Humans. We'll do it with everybody, leveraging community management, and the [Edgeryders stack of open source technologies](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/open-and-data-driven/37) to turn the online conversation into collective intelligence. The whole process will be – and stay – open to anyone who wants to participate.
**Together we will:**
  • collect experiences of human centric internet and digital tech solutions
  • validate them through open discussion, both online and offline
  • use this information to matchmake people and projects around opportunities to do collaborative fundraising and lobbying for the practical work of building and sustaining the solutions we need.
## Want to get involved? Great! Getting started is easy. ![59733395_421794291701774_8736371703820582912_n|690x528](upload://1eY3uFk42FImIjhYao0lbPdMTvb.png)
Just pick one of the focus themes presented in the image above and tell us a story that explores scenarios for anon2696444391 manage/respond to that need in the not so far future. These stories can be accounts of your personal, first hand experiences or they can be entirely fiction speculations on possible futures to come. We are especially interested in exploring anon2696444391/which people are currently contributing to a future internet that supports efforts to build humane, sustainable and equitable futures. Contributors who's stories engage others in thoughtful conversation are eligible for one of our [Humans of Internet Fellowships](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/fellowships-with-bursaries-for-human-centric-internet-builders-deadline-may-30/9715/10). When you are ready to share your story, create an account on anon1577251828.eu and post your story here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-your-story


___ **How we are financing this:** This project has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No 825652.
_The post ^^ was based on a piece commissioned by Edgeryders from Jeff Andreoni_" 2,53793,2019-05-23T10:55:29.971Z,9869,2,21,20,83,0,0,609.2,53258,anon2897324087,anon1577251828,"##### Julia Hi! I had a chat with Nadia about the Human Centric Internet fellowship, and will share it here, so that others who might also consider applying can access the same info: Good morning! I came across the call for fellows from anon1577251828, about human centric internet, and i was considering to apply. [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/fellowships-with-bursaries-for-human-centric-internet-builders-deadline-may-30/9715] Do you think i would stand a chance? ##### Nadia Hej Julia I think so, yes Maybe create an account, see which discussions are of interest to you and leave some thoughtful comments? [https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh?fbclid=IwAR00ijDo3FatAxioQvqX5L4F4ahE6787tK4dsZ12n0AgxGGESy53pCN0LtU) start by introducing yourself here [https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-your-story](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-your-story?fbclid=IwAR2eptRL3wYg0iX6j2GF2KStGMU2hAaqTnoCSoftiq3e1DQREGIoQ99UXNc) I cannot guarantee anything but the process is fully open and I am especially adamant that we have real diversity in participation perspectives, backgrounds, disciplines, interests, manguages etc languages gender etc ##### Julia Hi! Thanks for getting back to me! Yeah, i will definitely give it a try then! ##### Nadia either way - we are constantly channeling opportunities to support people's work who are active in the community And the more active the community, the more we can do this we are doing several rounds of fellowships too ##### Julia Ok, interesting. ##### Nadia it's pretty eclectic - to get a sense of anon2696444391/where we are wired - the contributions/discussions/approach go from pretty serious to [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/welcome-to-retirement/9869] ##### Julia Looks like good fun to be honest. I was more leaning towards the serious side, as im brainstorming for some sarcastic futurisitc art elsewhere... Need to keep the balance. :slight_smile: ##### Nadia yes, it is meant as inspiration to get thinking going along lines of anon2696444391 life and tech are intertwined instructions below encourage both creative writing and or first hand accounts of personal experiences as a starting point the two are usually completely separate which I think leads to this disconnect we see in tech. ##### Julia That's great. Personally im usually to much of a grassroots empirical generalist to fit, but this actually does looks promising. Ill give it a shot then. Thanks for taking the time!" 3,53819,2019-05-23T16:47:13.509Z,9869,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,53793,anon3828707713,anon2897324087,"Anytime. We are all in this fix, its sink or swim together afaic." 4,53821,2019-05-23T17:06:46.897Z,9869,1,17,16,1,1,0,13.4,53793,anon659222949,anon2897324087,"[quote=""anon2897324087, post:2, topic:9869""] That’s great. Personally im usually to much of a grassroots empirical generalist to fit, but this actually does looks promising. Ill give it a shot then. Thanks for taking the time! [/quote] Hey Julia, and welcome! What are you usually up to?" 5,53915,2019-05-24T12:48:59.917Z,9869,0,15,14,1,0,0,158.0,53821,anon2897324087,anon659222949,"Hi @anon659222949! I just managed to finish ""my story"" https://anon1577251828.eu/t/my-story-thoughts-on-collaboration/9977 It is not exactly an introduction to what I do, but at least it is something. :slight_smile: Cheers, Julia" 6,70883,2020-03-04T11:16:04.398Z,9869,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,53258,anon1753543892,anon1577251828,"ping @anon3661391758, do you think a call like this could be interesting for the Transmedial crowed?" 1,70507,2020-02-24T14:17:10.117Z,12714,0,9,8,13,0,0,66.8,70507,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"# Beyond Jason Bourne - For what would you need a Disposable Identity? Hello, dear community! I am posting this in the Name of @anon3554654177. Looking forward to all the creative and thoughtful ideas and comments of yours! > # Call for use cases ideas for Disposable Identities. # **The Need:** **The goal is to take back the power and control of your own identity and to keep big cooperations and governments from profiting off of it.** We need a multistakeholder governance on identity with citizens in charge together with SME (small companies) and inclusive tools from democratic organizations. ([disposableidentity.com](http://disposableidentity.com/) and [disposableidentities.eu](http://disposableidentities.eu/) coming soon.) # **Who we are:** **We are developing a technical solution for the generation of disposable identities for ""normal users.""** # **The Opportunity:** **We will reach out to the best use case idea's and use our resources and technical know-anon2696444391 to develop your idea into a serious pitch or call application.** You own your use cases and ideas are theirs. We offer to help in making it into a pitch for a pitch, portfolio, investors or making it ready to apply for an [NGI.eu](http://ngi.eu/) call. The next step to realising your DID idea! # **The Call:** *We ask you for the use cases you can imagine for such DiD's.* Send your idea to Rob van Kranenburg at rob at [dyne.org](http://dyne.org/) # **About DID's:** The idea is that from a DiD a person can generate a disposable (limited in time, in purpose and scope) identity for each separate service (for example one for rent, one for the energy company, one for the water company) that can only be seen, controlled and traced back by the DID owner and that one specific service. So no one can aggregate services, nor are you ever fully exposed as a person unless you decide to, because you just send token/credential ‘enough money in the bank’ to rent, water and energy company as they just need to know that you can pay, not who you are. Coding context: [zenroom.org](http://zenroom.org/) # How it works [Zenroom.org](http://zenroom.org/) allows you to get credentials from a CA, like for example “I’m above 18” and “I’m Belgian” and “today I have more than 1000 EUR in my bank”. Each credential is a crypto object, signed by the CA. Each time you want to use any of these credentials, they get anonymized, so if you use them twice, they don’t look the same and can not be linked to each other and therefore not traced back to you. # Example Use Case: So for example, if you need to access a service that requires you to be 18+ and Belgian, you’d use those 2 anonymized credentials… the next day you use a different service that requires you to be 18+ and has 1000K EUR in your bank account, so you use those 2 other anonymized credentials: both times **you effectively generated and used a disposable identity**, because only the CA could know who you are, but the services can only see that the CA signed the fact that you are Belgian, 18+ etc. # **Send your idea to Rob van. Kranenburg ([disposableidentity.com](http://disposableidentity.com/) and [disposableidentities.eu](http://disposableidentities.eu/) coming soon) at. rob at [dyne.org](http://dyne.org/)**" 2,70882,2020-03-04T11:14:28.157Z,12714,0,5,4,2,0,0,11.0,70507,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"ping @anon3661391758, you mentioned that you talked to Rob. This might also interest you" 1,66141,2019-11-28T10:57:59.178Z,11974,2,60,59,138,0,0,772.0,66141,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"Edgeryders.eu, [WorldBrain.io](http://worldbrain.io) and its partners want to apply for the upcoming [ICT-54-2020 call](https://www.ngi.eu/news/2019/07/23/ict-54-2020-call---blockchain-for-the-next-generation-internet/) as a consortium to run an incubator and co-development community for P2P/Open-Source knowledge and collective intelligence tools. The budget is €8 million over 24-36 months. >70% (~6m€) to be given to applicants. To complement the expertise required for running this incubator, we are looking to find partners that would commit themselves to be part of this program. We are still looking for an operational partner that is capable of handling on the administrative work to manage large amounts of public money. **If you are interested to join as a collaborator or applicant for the proposed program, please add yourself [to this survey](https://worldbrain.typeform.com/to/f0NqVe). For any questions or comments, add a reply to the thread.** # Introduction into H2020 Call Context Europe wants to become the leader in the field of collective intelligence and is uniquely positioned to do so. Its values of interoperability, privacy and decentralised power are foundational for an open web and the emergence of collective intelligence. The upcoming [ICT-54-2020 call](https://www.ngi.eu/news/2019/07/23/ict-54-2020-call---blockchain-for-the-next-generation-internet/) allows a consortium of organisations to apply for an €8m funding pot of which they have to distribute €6m to outstanding academic research groups, hi-tech start-ups, SMEs and others, contributing to the research and innovation area via cascade funding model. The Commission considers proposals with an overall duration of 24 to 36 months. Third parties will be funded through projects, typically in the EUR 50,000 to EUR 200,000 range per project, with an indicative duration of 12 months. **The deadline is January 16. 2020. (very tight)** One of the subtopics of the call is: **""Bringing forward the emergence of collective intelligence on the internet""** * developing approaches for scientific understanding and technology-based stimulation of collective intelligence on social media and the internet to foster trustworthy knowledge and information sharing, and to enhance social inclusion. Focus is on two main use cases: 1. develop new community-based service models on social networks that exploit collective intelligence to provide enhanced community services, and increase the availability of trustworthy content; 2. in the context of collective intelligence develop and implement new concepts for connecting people and smart objects/agents/AI on social media. * Approaches for both use cases must be rooted in scientific analysis of collective behaviour and network mechanisms, harness decentralised technologies such as P2P or blockchain for governance and support a dependable collective memory. # Proposal Summary: ### WISDOM - Human & community centric incubator for P2P knowledge and collective intelligence software. ## Vision The space of knowledge management and social media applications is dominated by players who's economic reward models force them to create lock-ins, therefore severely limiting the free flow of information, data and social interoperability and collective intelligence. Their centralised power allows them to be manipulated to spread low quality information, influence elections and abuse user's privacy and freedom of choice. The web is already decentralised and interoperable. Therefore only funding organisations with new decentralised technologies, like Blockchain, won't solve these issues. To get another leap forward in the web's potential to foster collective intelligence we need to also change the economic models and recreate an environment of human centric & ethical service design, freedom-of-provider-choice (open markets) and democratic peer2peer communication. We believe that 4 components are key for achieving this: 1. Economic and business models that * align with the principles of interoperability by implementing investor reward models that cap returns and make organisations non-tradeable (like Steward Ownership, Cooperatives, NPOs, Open Science Research, Open Source Output) * Those models need to prevent a growth-at-all-cost mindset and incentivise organisations to be service/profit oriented instead. * protect user data from being sold as a commodity and out of hands of (European) citizen * create incentives for organisations to collaborate more on shared infrastructure so they can grow together, not alone, and overcome the tragedy of the commons. 2. Interoperability to create USPs of freedom and perfectly user adapted tools that monopolistic organisations have a hard time competing with. Interoperability should be implemented with special focus on: 1. Data Portability 2. Social interconnectivity (allowing users to switch providers and still communicate with their 'old' peers & social connections, like email) 3. User centric adaptability: Users can easily experiement & upgrade to state-of-the-art technologies and protocols outside of a single company's control. 4. Algorithmic freedom to democratise people's ability to control their information diet and bubble 5. Modularity to enable user choice in service providers (e.g. using different default search engines in a browser) 3. Open Source software to create shared infrastructure and lower development costs 4. On/offline facilitation to foster emergent, scalable & co-creative communities, and individual/leaders that are aligned with their self and purpose. ## Incubator Program The proposed incubator program for P2P knowledge and collective intelligence tools aims to grow a community of economically sustainable organisations that co-develop the technological, economical and social infrastructure for increasing the capacity for collective intelligence online. It's key components are: * Communicating and co-evolving [a larger vision of collective intelligence](https://community.worldbrain.io/t/why-worldbrain-io-does-not-take-venture-capital/75) that is made possible by interoperable and hyper-adaptable human centric knowledge/social software and non-exploitative economic models. * Preferring applicants that * use investor reward models that do not create incentives for growth-at-all-cost but for being service focused, like Steward Ownership or Cooperative models. VC or ICO funded companies will only be accepted in special cases, where such a focus can be successfully argumented. * use business models that protect privacy/data ownership and user data from being sold as a commodity * develop modular software & apply interoperable standards/protocols * Facilitating a individualised learning/acceleration journey for teams and individuals in: * human centred product & service design * ethical principles of next generation social and knowledge software * anon2696444391 to build businesses that can sustain themselves before funding period ends * personal development to increase leadership skills and ethics, and ability to collaborate with peers * the ecology and interconnectivity of the proposed solutions * organisational development to determine value systems, purpose and directions * Faciltiating on/offline community with battle-tested practices for emergent community design to stimulate knowledge transfer and shared (software) development * previous approaches have resulted in anon2488317424 co-creation and shared direction between projects, and therefore lower efficiency of deployed money. # Consortium Partners & Roles: ## Technology Partner: [WorldBrain.io](http://WorldBrain.io) [WorldBrain.io](http://worldbrain.io) is a anon3983078393 owned company developing open-source, offline-first & P2P knowledge and collective intelligence applications. Their role in the consortium is: * providing [the initial technological, ethical, conceptual and economic vision](https://community.worldbrain.io/c/visions) for a human/community centric & interoperable network of knowledge and collective intelligence tools that is further developed together with the community in an open process. * providing modular, reusable, open source boilerplates for offline-first & p2p knowledge & collective intelligence applications to speed up development of new tools. * Memex: A online research tool to full-text search web history, annotate, co-curate and discuss web content, and collaborate with peers. * Storex: A user controlled, interoperable and adaptable storage layer for knowledge management data. This modular library powers the search and storage of Memex and allows developers to * flexibly adapt an application backend to any platform (web, mobile, browser extension), database/search technology (MongoDB, SQlite) and transport protocol (Http, IPFS, Ethereum). * build translators for any data model to enable emergent interoperable user-centric communication standards * pulling in a network of activists, policymakers, entrepreneurs and investors that are aligned with the provided vision to engage as mentors, funders and partners. ## Community Partner: [Edgeryders.eu](http://Edgeryders.eu) Edgeryders is an online & offline community of over 5000 hackers, activists, entrepreneurs, developers and scientists, radical thinkers and doers, and just normal people that want to make a difference. Their role in the consortium is to: * provide a high-quality online platform and methodology for online collaboration * facilitating an online and public application and project selection process * hosting a rich online-conversation about next generation internet topics, technological challenges & philosophies * analysing conversations through a semantic social network analysis (SSNA) to surface high quality connections between people/content to increase collaboration potential and discover promising new initiatives from within the community. * running our battle-tested distributed offline events and festivals to get people to collaborate ## TBA: Operational Partner The main role of the operational partner is to handle the processing of the H2020 money. It is required that this organisation has experience with handling the bureaucratic work associated with large sums of (public) money. ### **Potential Partners** 1. Purpose Ventures & Foundation 2. SEND e.V. 3. Ashoka 4. ProjectTogether 5. [BetterPlace.org](http://BetterPlace.org) ## TBA: Facilitation Partner The role of this organisation is to * provide world-class on/offline facilitation to foster emergent, scalable & co-creative communities, and individual/leaders/teams/communities that are aligned with their self and purpose. * organise the preparation and execution of the team retreats * Facilitate mentorships & meetings of the co-learning pods that form within teams and organisations ### Potential Partners 1. CocoonPro 2. DGov Foundation 3. Enspiral 4. Art of Hosting Community # Here is the plan for our weekly calls: Topic: Collective Intelligence Incubator Time: Jan 21, 2020 05:00 PM Brussels Every week on Tue, until Feb 18, 2020, 5 occurrence(s) Jan 21, 2020 05:00 PM Jan 28, 2020 05:00 PM Feb 4, 2020 05:00 PM Feb 11, 2020 05:00 PM Feb 18, 2020 05:00 PM Please download and import the following iCalendar (.ics) files to your calendar system. Weekly: https://zoom.us/meeting/upcufuqqpjsq4YAUKG3jBunupQBRjG3xXA/ics?icsToken=98tyKu6rrTIpGNyVsFzHUbMvA538bvHykyV3i5Z2u0zvITVddxPHFNBIFeFnKPmB Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/733932800 Meeting ID: 733 932 800" 2,66163,2019-11-28T11:38:18.252Z,11974,1,38,37,1,0,0,32.6,66141,anon3747875924,anon3554387720,"Super interesting. Can you set up a call to discuss details? Best, Soenke" 3,66169,2019-11-28T12:00:11.108Z,11974,3,38,37,1,0,0,27.6,66163,anon3554387720,anon3747875924,"Hello Soenke, Yes a call is a great idea. I plan to have one around December 15, when we have the first version of our proposal done. Before I'd like to collect all questions in this thread, so we can have an open discussion. The call seems to be better to talk through things in more detail. Do you have specific questions I can try to work through here that we can start with?" 4,66198,2019-11-28T13:16:24.442Z,11974,0,37,36,1,0,0,27.4,66169,anon3828707713,anon3554387720,if you want to reach others on platform and in our extended network it's good to let @anon1753543892 and @anon2794261635 know when and where call is happening well in advance 5,66253,2019-11-28T18:40:10.749Z,11974,1,38,37,5,1,0,52.6,66141,anon2860100070,anon3554387720,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:1, topic:11974""] DGov Foundation [/quote] Hi, as member of the DGOV community we have applied to other grants via the Institute for Innovative Governance Foundation as DGOV has no formal entity yet. I would be happy to take this role and also put lost of effort in the co-writing. I have experience with EU funding. Warm regards, Liliana." 6,66307,2019-11-29T11:20:09.624Z,11974,0,38,37,2,0,0,32.6,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"@anon3554387720 and the hackathon participants who are involved in this development, maybe you or some of the people you know/work with are interested in the last addition to the festival roaster: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/cooperation-at-scale-next-generation-collective-intelligence-and-internet/11989 an event on collective intelligence in Brussels on Sunday the 1st of December. It will also be live-streamed and recorded." 7,66329,2019-11-29T13:08:02.340Z,11974,0,35,34,1,1,0,42.0,66169,anon2860100070,anon3554387720,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:3, topic:11974""] December 15 [/quote] @anon3554387720 @anon3747875924 If this call is open for others, I would like to join it. I am interested on participating on H2020 proposals for Next Generation Collective Intelligence and Next Generation Internet, and Democracy/governace in more simple terms." 8,66349,2019-11-29T16:02:19.974Z,11974,0,33,32,1,0,0,41.6,66169,anon3747875924,anon3554387720,"I just completed the typeform survey. If there is a more detailed proposal it would help to see that and then we can detail our potential / complementary contribution. I think we'd be interested in coming on board via our Experimental Media Lab, through K8 we have been handling large multi-year national grants but not yet a H2020 project. Part of an art academy, xm:lab is part of the local ai / cybersecurity / data science / visual computing ecosystem and we have been expanding activities in the field of collective intelligence design research. We are familiar with the H2020 process and can submit work package / partner profile docs by mid-december." 9,66521,2019-12-01T12:51:56.398Z,11974,2,30,29,1,0,0,36.0,66141,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"Thanks everyone for your interest here. Maybe its better if we have a call next week already? Would 6pm Berlin time on Friday work for you folks? @anon3747875924 I will provide a first draft of the proposal by mid next week. @anon2860100070 Yes the call would be open for anyone interested to join." 10,66524,2019-12-01T13:54:58.772Z,11974,1,29,28,1,0,0,15.8,66521,anon3747875924,anon3554387720,"Yes Fr 18:00 works for me. Draft by Wed - cool, will use that to dev specific proposal for the Fr discussion." 11,66675,2019-12-02T15:34:13.031Z,11974,1,29,28,1,1,0,15.8,66524,anon2860100070,anon3747875924,"[quote=""anon3747875924, post:10, topic:11974""] Fr 18:00 [/quote] Friday at 18h is a bit challenging for me but I will arrange my agenda. Talk to you then. Via zoom?" 12,66694,2019-12-02T17:26:58.928Z,11974,1,29,28,1,0,0,15.8,66675,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,I can set up a room for you guys and we can invite more people once you found a time :) 13,66704,2019-12-02T17:58:58.139Z,11974,2,28,27,1,0,0,20.6,66141,anon995479489,anon3554387720,I'd be interested and joining as another technology partner if that is possible. We have unique tech that is aligned and complimentary and could lead to greater levels of collective intelligence. 14,66705,2019-12-02T18:03:29.098Z,11974,1,28,27,1,0,0,45.6,66704,anon3747875924,anon995479489,Hi @anon995479489 welcome - what EU country would you be co-applying from? Your site lists CA 15,66754,2019-12-03T09:39:43.098Z,11974,1,26,25,1,0,0,15.2,66521,anon3747875924,anon3554387720,"I think we should also keep [ICT-57](https://ec.europa.eu/info/funding-tenders/opportunities/portal/screen/opportunities/topic-details/ict-57-2020) in mind, a anon2488317424 less ambitious time-wise (due April 22, 2020)" 16,66764,2019-12-03T10:45:38.944Z,11974,1,28,27,1,0,0,15.6,66754,anon3554387720,anon3747875924,I am not sure anon2696444391 we could fit in to that call with the proposal we want to make? Any ideas? 17,66780,2019-12-03T12:18:31.179Z,11974,0,33,32,1,0,0,11.6,66764,anon3747875924,anon3554387720,"Dev for the other call first, but sth that links p2p tools with machine translation should not be too far off." 18,66848,2019-12-04T09:22:40.900Z,11974,1,32,31,1,0,0,16.4,66704,anon2860100070,anon995479489,"Welcome to the platform @anon995479489 I see this is your first post! :slight_smile:" 19,66849,2019-12-04T09:25:02.031Z,11974,1,33,32,1,1,0,16.6,66694,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:12, topic:11974""] set up a room [/quote] @anon3747875924 @anon3554387720 are we meeting on Friday? Could you confirm me this, please? @anon1753543892 wants to facilitate this to happen by offering us a room." 20,66873,2019-12-04T13:08:02.911Z,11974,0,32,31,1,0,0,11.4,66849,anon3747875924,anon2860100070,I think she means online. Yes last I heard call Fr 18:00 21,66883,2019-12-04T15:13:46.311Z,11974,1,29,28,1,0,0,15.8,66705,anon995479489,anon3747875924,"Hi Soenke I was hoping that my US based company could be part of the project. We could do Esanon2863106368ia but I would need to set that up. I am interested to see what possibilities for what our participation might be. Thanks ." 22,66889,2019-12-04T15:56:20.633Z,11974,4,27,26,2,0,0,65.4,66883,anon3379761435,anon995479489,"Partners can join from [associated countries](https://ec.europa.eu/research/participants/data/ref/h2020/grants_manual/hi/3cpart/h2020-hi-list-ac_en.pdf) outside the EU. But: no proposal is likely to be successful if not led by one of the heavy hitters in the NGI space. @anon3554387720 is aware of this." 23,66896,2019-12-04T16:30:39.493Z,11974,2,28,27,1,0,0,20.6,66889,anon3747875924,anon3379761435,Have u been in touch with Mulgan? 24,66920,2019-12-04T19:47:53.528Z,11974,4,33,32,41,0,0,271.6,66896,anon3554387720,anon3747875924,"Hey folks! This is the first part of the proposal outlining the general direction: ## 1.1.1 Project Vision Europe wants to become the leader in the field of collective intelligence and is uniquely positioned to do so. Its values of interoperability, privacy and decentralised power are foundational for an open web and the emergence of collective intelligence. It has credibility as a champion of the human-centric internet through its regulatory muscle flexing (the GDPR, Vestager, net neutrality). Now it has an important opportunity to take charge of also building technological solutions as well as new social and economic models that could support a human/community-centric alternative to compete with the dominant narrative of Big Tech and Venture funding. Today, the space of knowledge management and social/collective media applications is dominated by organisations that have an economic incentive to continuously grow-at-all-costs to reward investors. With these reward models organisations losing users or profit directly influences the profit margin of investors and create a need for 'infinite' growth. This incentivises the creation of lock-ins, as well as exploitation of the environment, workers and users. Data and social lock-ins limit innovation, open markets, the free flow of information and the capacity for collective intelligence. The web in itself is decentralised and interoperable, but still severely centralised in the past 30 years. New decentralised technologies like Blockchain will not solve these issue on their own. To really create an open web and collective intelligence it is of crucial importance to simultaneously tackle the economic incentives, software development paradigms and methods of collaboration. Problems like trustworthy information sharing, problem solving and enhanced social inclusion are directly dependent on our society's capacity for collective intelligence. The Next Generation Internet initiative, with its broad and ambitious scope, provides us with an incredibly powerful opportunity to shape new economic dynamics from the ground up, experiment with new approaches and provide boilerplate models that can be replicated across Europe and in other industries. The goal for the WISDOM initiative is to grow a community of economically sustainable organisations that co-develop the technological, economical and social infrastructure for increasing the capacity for collective intelligence. WISDOM aims to do so by establishing an incubator program & co-development community for Open Source & P2P knowledge and collective intelligence tools using ethical business models & investor reward models with capped returns (like 'Steward Ownership'. See chapter 1.3.3) that give them the economic freedom to: - align themselves with the principles data portability & ownership, social interoperability, privacy, as well as human & community centric innovation - collaborate on shared infrastructure & research, and overcome the tragedy of the commons - act socially responsible by improving value chain sustainability and working conditions - sustainably grow together as a community/market, instead of growing-at-all-costs as individual organisations The incubator members and its partners are world-class experts in individual, group and organisational facilitation using battle tested on-and offline methods to: - co-develop and articulate an ambitious vision for what we want the Next Generation Internet to be, involving diverse thought leaders and domain experts in the process - increase intra and inter organisational alignment and shared directions to avoid scattered deployment of funds - surface areas for co-development & co-research and increase impact of deployed NGI funds - increase sharing of industry specific knowledge, and peer-learning in organisational design & leadership The consortium, its partners & supporter network bring together deep expertise about the internet and related technologies. Our varied backgrounds as entrepreneurs, data scientists, digital humanities experts, policymakers, activists and civil society actors allows us to take a multidisciplinary approach to developing this vision and its values. Our strong standing and experience as current partners in the NGI ensures we can rapidly build and iterate upon the exciting work we have already been doing in the past. ## 1.1.2 Project objectives and key performance indicators ### **Objective 1:** Increase the web's capacity for collective intelligence through a holistic approach of supporting interoperability & human/community centric service design, sustainable investor reward models and business models, and facilitation methods to optimise for maximum cross-organisational collaboration. ### **Objective 2:** Grow a value & purpose-aligned community of independently economically sustainable organisations that co-develop the technological, economical and social infrastructure for increasing the capacity for collective intelligence. ### Objective 3: Create a replicable boilerplate of technological concepts, open-source software modules, facilitation methods and economic reward models that can be used by other governments to kickstart local and national collective intelligence efforts, and sanon2696444391 success metrics to convince the larger market to invest in these companies and ecosystems. ### Objective 4: Create an economic space with increase service competition and maximum potential for collaboration on shared infrastructure to solve the tragedy of the commons. # **1.2 Relation to the work programme** *Indicate the work programme topic to which your proposal relates, and explain anon2696444391 your proposal addresses the specific challenge and scope of that topic, as set out in the work programme.* ### ""Shape a more human-centric evolution of the Internet."" To **shape a more human-centric evolution of the Internet** it not only requires a focus on privacy and data ownership, but also to provide great services for individuals and groups. In the current server-client model powered by companies who's investor models incentivise growth-at-all costs, user data is centralised in a few big companies that offer the exact same services for billions of users. To generate this growth companies often rely on providing free/cheap services for users that then sell user data or advertisement in return, thus violating privacy and data ownership. To retain this growth, organisations create lock-ins that reduce service innovation because users can't easily move to services that serve their needs better, and new service have troubles entering existing markets with innovative products. The incubator focuses on organisations with investor rewards models that are not incentivising growth-at-all costs, like Steward Ownership, as well as software products that provide data portability and social interconnectivity. With the cohort of companies in the incubator we aim to grow a nucleus for a small economy of knowledge software products to recreate the free market dynamics that lead to the explosion of innovation and human/community centric services of the early web and early modern economy. ### ""Promoting interoperability and strengthening the role of Europe in international standardisation"" In the currently dominant reward models where investors make profits through the increase of speculative value, or get indefinite profit dividends by holding shares, every user or profit lost means less profit for investors. Interoperability anon2696444391ever would make it possible that services loose users more easily, therefore those investor reward models strongly disincentivice interoperability and collaboration on shared infrastructure like standardisation efforts. To promote interoperability it is important to not just develop interoperable products but change the investor rewards models too. The incubator focuses on organisations with investor rewards models where organisations can loose profits and users without reducing investor returns. This gives those organisations the economic freedom to be interoperable. With our strong focus on faciliating collaboration between the teams of the incubator we aim to increase co-development on shared infrastructure like standards or software modules. By having 10-20 successful organisations with potentially millions of combined users developing shared standards, it could lead to a strong role of Europe in driving the open and human centric development of international standardisation. ### ""Service models for community services building on collective intelligence and novel approaches for connecting people and smart objects/agents to stimulate use of collective intelligence [...] develop new community-based service models on social networks that exploit collective intelligence to provide enhanced community services, The lock-ins created by the services people use today, innovation on novel approaches to connecting people is heavily limited. Those lock-ins make it hard/impossible to migrate to other services, extend services with new technologies (like using different p2p protocols in the browser or messengers), or freely connect different people, services, devices and smart objects. Because collective intelligence needs needs the free exchange of information, these lock-ins severely limit the potential for collective intelligence. The incubator's concept of an open-source, interoperable, anon3983078393-owned economy is designed to incentivise innovation for human/community centric service models, enable the free flow of information and as a result the emergence of collective intelligence in the magnitude of the early web. ### ""developing approaches for scientific understanding and technology-based stimulation of collective intelligence on social media and the internet to foster trustworthy knowledge and information sharing, and to enhance social inclusion. [...] Increase the availability of trustworthy content The problem of a lack of trustworthy knowledge and increase in misinformation is not only about the availability of quality information, but people experiencing information overload. It takes time and skills to understand a topic or piece of content well enough to not be misinformed. So it is easy to be misinformed given the plethora of topics and facts people are exposed to today. However everyone is doing online research and gathers trustworthy knowledge useful to others. Due to the existing data and social lock-ins people can only share a fraction of the cognitive process, the quality content they read, background information they find or thoughts they have. If people could share a more complete picture of their subjective research and memory, they could help each other to find trustworthy information and understand more topics deeper, faster and with more perspectives. Every person stores, processes and communicates such knowledge in different formats and apps. It is critical that applications helping users to sort, evaluate, curate and share this knowledge are adapted to the individuals workflows, provide algorithmic freedom and communicate with interoperable protocols. Creating such a diversity of services with a high degree of **social inclusion** can neither be achieved by a single company nor the current investor reward paradigms that incentivise organisations to build services with as many users as possible. To solve this problem it is fundamental to have a human/community centric, interoperable network of many independent knowledge services that are highly adapted to individual's needs. To increase the availability of trustworthy content, users need flexibility to innovate on new models to information through algorithmic freedom. As described in the sections above, to achieve this kind of development and implementation of ""**new concepts for connecting people and smart objects/agents/AI on social media""** it is required to change the economic incentives for organisations to enable the free flow of information and increase of service innovation. The incubator's concept of an open-source, interoperable, anon3983078393-owned economy is designed **""Generate new business opportunities and new Internet companies with maximum growth and impact chances.""** to create the needed diversity of services. The aim is to grow an initial nucleus of an economy where organisations have the maximum innovation, growth and impact chances as an interoperable ecosystem/market not as single internet companies. We believe it will be virtually impossible to grow a single ethical knowledge/social media organisations that can compete with Facebook/Google/Twitter, by trying to play the same winner-takes-all game. Even Google+, with $600m in funding, Google's network effects and financial resources failed. ### Create a European blockchain ecosystem integrating research and innovation communities. Through our network of community partners like IPFS, Dat, Ethereum and Holochain we are integrating international research and innovation communities in the advisory process. Their European community members are invited to apply with their blockchain based projects The main focus of the incubator is more broadly P2P and offline-first applications, not only blockchains, as they are only one of many options in the P2P toolchain that can be used to achieve data ownership, privacy and interoperability. Using also requires careful consideration that is highly dependent on the specific use case. Only limiting applicants on blockchain based technologies would severely limit the opportunities for impact of this initiative and incubator. One of the evaluation principles of the incubator is the degree of user centric adaptability that enables users/developers/entrepreneurs to experiment with different transport protocols to power communication and storage of applications outside of a single company's control. User centric adaptability also enables services to gradually migrate their infrastructure to blockchain technologies as they become more market ready. # 1.3. Concept: In order to bring a large scale shift in society's capacity for collective intelligence & collaboration, it requires the simultaneous work on the technological, economical and social paradigms. The goal is to maximise collaboration on shared infrastructure, human/community-centric innovation and competition on services. WISDOM is an incubator program with a unique combination of principles capable of creating a human-centric European internet economy that becomes a fertile ground for collective intelligence and collaboration at scale. To do so we combine the four elements of interoperability, open-source software, Steward Ownership economics and facilitation of individual, team and community growth. ## 1.3.1. **Interoperability** The incubator has a special focus on organisations that provide and add research on data portability, social interconnectivity and human/community-centric adaptability. Implemented correctly, it creates an environment where users can move to other services without frictions and still communicate with peers using other tools (Example: SMTP/email). Human/community-centric adaptability enables users/developers experiment & upgrade to state-of-the-art technologies, protocols & data-models outside of a single service's control. (Example: Wordpress plugins). Users being able to adapt according to their needs creates a way for emergent interoperability & standardisation that is born out of the real world use cases of communication, instead of top-down standardisation. This adaptability could also express itself in the ability for users to get algorithmic freedom which can democratise people's ability to control their information diet and **foster trustworthy knowledge and information sharing**. Such interoperability **creates an open market** with an increase in service competition & consumer choice on better and more ethical services. Interoperability also naturally limits the maximum individual growth of organisations because they will only be able to hold as many customers as they are the best services for. This creates external pressure for organisations to be service-oriented, not to dominate markets. Not even Google managed to overtake SMTP with Gmail. The incubator is working together with leading individuals and organisations in the field, like IPFS, Dat, SSB community, W3C, [Hypothes.is](http://hypothes.is) and the NGI teams. ## 1.3.2. Modular Open-Source-Software Enables developers to easily innovate on existing services without reinventing the wheel and thus more easily start profitable businesses and **increase service-competition & consumer-choice**. A modular development approach ensures that the developed components can be reused not only by the organisations funded by the incubator, but also in the larger ecosystem. The developed components also offer a great focal point for collaboration and the ability to drastically reduce development costs. ## 1.3.3. Steward Ownership: Steward Ownership is an economic reward model for organisations that gives them economic freedom to be interoperable, service oriented and socially responsible, not to lock people in, exploit the environment or workers in order to grow-at-all-costs to reward investors. Steward Ownership companies cannot be sold on the open-market because of non-profit foundations that either fully own the company or have a golden share to veto a sale. People taking risk in investing time or money are rewarded with a capped profit share. These mechanisms remove greedy behaviour for growth-at-all costs while still incentivising growth and rewarding taking risks and entrepreneurial crafts. Steward Ownership companies' ability to be interoperable and socially responsible exists because the capped profit-share allows organisations to lose users/profits without lowering the total returns of investors. This also gives those organisations the economic freedom to be socially responsible so there is less need for regulation of bad actors that exploit users, employees or the environment because of unlimited profit interests. With the current investor reward models, organisations often tend towards growing as fast as possible with free/cheap services where ads and exploiting user data are often the only remaining business models. SO organisations need to make profit in order to reward investors. It additionally creates incentivises for those companies to become good at providing human/community-centric services instead of growing-at-all-costs. Invented by Zeiss/Bosch, it is a model that exists for over 125 years and is used by companies like Mozilla, Ecosia, Buffer, Carlsberg & John Lewis. In Germany Steward Ownership organisations employ ~1.2 million people and in Denmark there are over 1000 SO companies which control a quarter of the 100 largest corporations. Historically SO organisations have a 600% higher survival rate and thus create a more stable economy. Promoting Steward Ownership structures is currently getting on the agenda of major funds and government's agends (CDU in Germany) and a shift away from a purely shareholder-value driven focus has entered the mainstream conversations, [like at the WEF](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/12/davos-manifesto-2020-the-universal-purpose-of-a-company-in-the-fourth-industrial-revolution/?fbclid=IwAR1G9FksiLdstX6G5CsQxJCbGqeqWeMaCkYNR9YUyKTz3FWkyDHG2s4Rhs4). Investing in Steward Ownership organisations is also in the interest of the European Union because organisations that have been funded by the EU cannot be sold outside of the EU. It not only keeps the economic potential inside the EU, but also prevents the data of citizen being owned by other companies without their consent as part of an acquisition, like it recently happened with Fitbit's health data and the sale to Google. ## 1.3.4. Facilitation: We consider facilitation of individual growth, team governance and inter-organisational collaboration as an often underdeveloped, but crucial aspect of collective intelligence. In order to have effective collaboration you need leaders and team members that possess emotional intelligence and shared purpose. Arriving there inherently means working through frictions stemming from different expectations, goals and personality traits that requires careful facilitation by professionals, and education of people in the process. By facilitating these interactions their is great gain to be made. - It allows to to uncover areas for potential collaboration on shared infrastructure like software modules and standards which can increase the impact of the funds deployed by NGI - it increases the shared direction & vision of the community and creates focus for the funds deployed by NGI - it increases the relationships and connections in the community - it increases social inclusion because facilitations integrate individual's needs ## 1.3.5. An economy where it is more profitable to collaborate than to dominate We believe the above mentioned 4 components create a positive feedback loop that fosters the emergence of an economy where: - it becomes **more profitable to collaborate than to dominate** - **the tragedy of the commons can be solved** - organisations mindset shifts from individually growing-at-all-costs to growing together as a community This is because interoperable organisations need to focus on creating great services to a smaller audience (or lose them as customers) and therefore don't directly compete anymore against 90% of the market. As Steward Owned organisations they need to lower costs to return money to investors faster and thus have a financial incentive to collaborate with similar services on developing shared/public/open-source infrastructure (e.g. p2p modules or feature libraries like annotations). Since they can give away profits without lowering investor's total returns they can also be socially responsible by investing in public good infrastructure without profit interests. Facilitation in individual leadership, team management and inter-organisational collaboration can help increase the shared direction, uncover areas for co-development of infrastructure (software modules, data standards), create deeper relationships inside the community, and increase the impact of the funds deployed by H2020." 25,66925,2019-12-04T20:04:25.847Z,11974,1,24,23,2,0,0,34.8,66920,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"@anon2860100070 Yes we set the time for Friday 6pm you can come into this zoom call. https://zoom.us/j/578212773 @anon995479489 It might be a bit more complicated to join as a technology partner given that you are in the US and the time sensitivity on setting up an Esanon2863106368ian company (without a track record) But not being a consortium partner does not mean you can't be a network partner that is involved in the process. Would be great to have you jump on that call with us and learn a bit more about anon2696444391 you see an involvement from your perspective. If you have anything to share beforehand that'll be awesome. @anon3747875924 ""Dev for the other call first, but sth that links p2p tools with machine translation should not be too far off."" yeah but that is definitely not a proposal we would like to go for. It's too specific on the solution/direction, so it doesn't make sense with our general idea. @anon3379761435. Yeah that's definitely a challenge. We are in the talks with some organisations that may be ""heavy"" enough. I feel like even if we don't get that grant, there are a couple of other sources where we can raise the money for the proposal." 26,66926,2019-12-04T20:09:23.202Z,11974,1,24,23,1,0,0,14.8,66896,anon3554387720,anon3747875924,Who is Mulgan? 27,66927,2019-12-04T20:45:49.441Z,11974,0,24,23,1,0,0,9.8,66925,anon995479489,anon3554387720,"@anon3554387720 I think being a network partner totally makes sense. I have ideas around structured annotation formats specifically designed for building shared context and developing collective intelligence. These formats aggregate into a universal online knowledge graph which can then serve as a platform-agnostic context engine, which I see as essential for helping build shared understanding." 28,66929,2019-12-04T21:08:03.888Z,11974,0,24,23,1,1,0,39.8,66920,anon3379761435,anon3554387720,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:24, topic:11974""] Europe and in other industries. The goal for the WISDOM initiative is to grow a community of economically sustainable organisations that co-develop the technological, economical and social infrastructure for increasing the capacity for collective intelligence. [/quote] This is good work, Oliver. I salute you." 29,66943,2019-12-05T04:33:23.306Z,11974,0,22,21,1,0,0,9.4,66848,anon995479489,anon2860100070,Thanks so much. Happy to be hear and hope to contribute :) 30,66944,2019-12-05T04:34:23.264Z,11974,0,21,20,2,0,0,14.2,66889,anon995479489,anon3379761435,Thanks for the clarification @anon3379761435 31,66947,2019-12-05T05:46:01.492Z,11974,0,23,22,2,0,0,14.6,66926,anon3747875924,anon3554387720,"@anon3554387720 thx much for this. I meant Geoff Mulgan, NESTA. But maybe NESTA is already on your list. Agreed re ICT-57, it would be anon2373157426 a stretch. The discussion about property design as key vector of organizational development has picked up anon2373157426 a bit in Germany (https://eigentumskonferenz.de/eigentumskonferenz-2018/, https://verantwortungseigentum.com/), extremely exciting and timely to see the question of anon3983078393 ownership featured so centrally here. One question: anon2696444391 do you feel about the [platform coop](https://platform.coop/) discussion in relation to SO? Imo the ""cooperative renaissance"" (also see [this](http://disco.coop/manifesto/) on distributed cooperative organizations) is part of the move toward a different sense of ownership and a way to broaden the [public value](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-value-of-everything/10136) discussion we have been having (whatever the limitations of refocusing innovation narratives to give state actors a larger role, the adoption of [mission-oriented research](https://ec.europa.eu/info/horizon-europe-next-research-and-innovation-framework-programme/mission-oriented-policy-horizon-europe_en) by the EU is a key dev). In fact the coop discussion is a possible WP I could see us contribute to. In this context I am also curious about anon1577251828 relationship to [mydata](https://mydata.org/) - I have seen it mentioned here but am not sure anon2696444391 this relates to other anon1577251828 projects (also b/c I am still catching up on open care etc). But if anon3983078393 ownership is to be a focus of the proposal it seems to me that cooperative data governance frameworks may play a role." 32,66957,2019-12-05T08:52:06.828Z,11974,1,24,23,1,0,0,29.8,66141,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"@anon3747875924 No have not had contact with him. I only know Katja Bego and contacted her. She seems very busy though. If you have a good connection to Geoff, I think it would be great if you can sanon2696444391 him this thread (and specifically my last update) and see if they are interested to join as a consortium partner, as we are still looking for a strong operational partner, like NESTA. Glad you mention the Eigentumskonferenz. We know the folks from Purpose a while already and they are our mentors. They helped me with the presentation at the EC recently too. > But if anon3983078393 ownership is to be a focus of the proposal it seems to me that cooperative data governance frameworks may play a role. Re platform coops: Fully agree. I had them in the initial briefing more prominently positioned, but not in the recently sent update which was more focused on the general dynamic, less on the implementation. The next section I am working on is ""methodology"", where specific examples of Steward Ownership, like Platform Coops should be included. Glad you also mentioned the mission focused approach of the EC, will see anon2696444391 I can incorporate those. > In fact the coop discussion is a possible WP I could see us contribute to I'd be great, if you can formulate a rough work package for that. Would help to get a better sense of what you have in mind there. Meaning: Objectives, Tasks and Deliverables across a 36month time frame (given only 30 months are incubation period) Also important to note for the proposal is why your organisation would be uniquely positioned to provide value to that area." 33,66958,2019-12-05T08:59:46.648Z,11974,0,23,22,1,0,0,9.6,66957,anon3747875924,anon3554387720,Ok I panon2945747231d Mulgan re NESTA involvement. And will work on WP description. 34,66995,2019-12-05T13:57:15.724Z,11974,0,25,24,1,0,0,25.0,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"I set up a zoom room for you guys tomorrow (Friday 6th) 18:00 Brussels time: Edgeryders Team is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. Topic: Applying for the H2020 collective intelligence call Time: Dec 6, 2019 06:00 PM Brussels Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/366865057 Meeting ID: 366 865 057" 35,66998,2019-12-05T14:04:20.550Z,11974,0,24,23,3,0,0,49.8,66920,anon3828707713,anon3554387720,"Look interesting. You may find this post and the source materials it draws from useful https://anon1577251828.eu/t/5-new-principles-for-justice-in-the-age-of-ai-and-other-networked-technologies/12117/3 Possibly also @anon1732761404 @anon2619552108 @anon425414391 might be interested in ^^." 36,67071,2019-12-06T13:01:37.522Z,11974,1,24,23,2,1,0,19.8,66889,anon2860100070,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:22, topic:11974""] heavy hitters [/quote] Who are these institutions?" 37,67072,2019-12-06T13:20:11.706Z,11974,1,26,25,1,1,0,60.2,66141,anon2868057530,anon3554387720,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:1, topic:11974""] TBA: Operational Partner [/quote] One of the questions I have, from an outsider looking in, is the requirement to have an Operational Partner. I'm just curious if there is any willingness on a project basis to build this capability up in edgeriders, or otherwise instead of having a third party manage this. It is a bit like the business rational of subcontract versus do hiring internally — is this so specialized that it negates taking this on internally? Or are there expectations from the funding organizations that a third party “audit and control” anon2696444391 things are executed? In the longer term, I'd see an organization that can both execute *and* manage their projects, capacity building… — *could* be a feature that is compelling to the funding organizations. Please take this question *in kindness* where I am not questioning prior decisions, but simply seeking to understand." 38,67077,2019-12-06T13:39:25.891Z,11974,1,26,25,1,1,0,45.2,67071,anon3379761435,anon2860100070," [quote=""anon2860100070, post:36, topic:11974""] Who are these institutions? [/quote] Try the Death Star of Horizon 2020: https://github.com/spaghetti-open-data/ODFest2017-horizon2020-network/wiki/8.-The-Death-Star-of-Horizon-2020 But NGI has its own high level, that does not necessarily coincide with Horizon 2020 as a whole." 39,67079,2019-12-06T13:43:00.024Z,11974,0,27,26,1,1,0,25.4,67072,anon3379761435,anon2868057530,"[quote=""anon2868057530, post:37, topic:11974""] I’m just curious if there is any willingness on a project basis to build this capability up in edgeriders, [/quote] No. That's administration. We are lousy at it, and have no interest in becoming better. Also, you cannot subcontract it, because the Commission frowns upon subcontracting key functions (rightly). The coordinator of the NGI Forward consortium is [NESTA](https://www.nesta.org.uk/) – well funded, super well connected, large." 40,67080,2019-12-06T14:12:27.241Z,11974,0,25,24,1,0,0,25.0,67077,anon3747875924,anon3379761435,"I can talk to colleagues at Fraunhofer, if that makes sense. Let's discuss these options in the call later." 41,67098,2019-12-06T17:55:24.689Z,11974,1,24,23,1,0,0,44.8,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Thank you for a great call @anon3554387720, @anon3747875924 and @anon2860100070! Very interesting collaborations and synergies! Let me know if I can help out in any way here :)" 42,67168,2019-12-09T09:20:29.568Z,11974,1,25,24,2,0,0,35.0,67098,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892 @anon3747875924 @anon2860100070 I'd like to do a community call on this every Thursday at 6pm to talk about the next steps. Soenke and Lyly: Did you already get feedback from people you approached? Here is an updated invitation: https://www.notion.so/worldbrain/Consortium-Partner-Invitation-WISDOM-Human-community-centric-incubator-for-P2P-knowledge-and-co-13fc69d975d3498688202d2df3cb4378 And here is the public Google Doc of the proposal [WIP] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n7qF4CqnllUTSnIXBFg9QNVXugsK9wG2p0DGgBb4_7k" 43,67182,2019-12-09T12:34:57.032Z,11974,0,24,23,2,0,0,44.8,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,I will set up the recurring call for you guys and post the link here. Will be the same link every week and you should be able to enter the room room even without me with as many people as needed 44,67189,2019-12-09T14:01:08.579Z,11974,1,24,23,1,1,0,29.8,67168,anon2860100070,anon3554387720,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:42, topic:11974""] Lyly [/quote] Hi @anon3554387720 I have contacted Eva from Nesta via LinkedIn, and I have also sent an email to Ruben from imec. You are in CC in that email. I will approach P2Pf, TimeLab, Michel Bauwens, but I am not sure of the kind of partnership/role that fits them. What could I write specifically to them?" 45,67219,2019-12-09T21:45:58.563Z,11974,2,23,22,1,0,0,19.6,66141,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"Shall we do the call then all together on Wednesday 8:30pm with Ruben, instead of Thursday?" 46,67221,2019-12-09T22:29:30.000Z,11974,0,24,23,2,0,0,14.8,67219,anon3747875924,anon3554387720,Can't do 08:30 pm but happy to catch up soonest after that 47,67234,2019-12-10T08:20:37.698Z,11974,1,25,24,1,0,0,15.0,67219,anon2860100070,anon3554387720,"It is fine for me, and we could ask @anon1753543892 to support us to record the call so @anon3747875924 can follow it. Does it sound okay?" 48,67235,2019-12-10T09:08:03.000Z,11974,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,67234,anon3747875924,anon2860100070,cool thx much ! 49,67246,2019-12-10T12:54:36.142Z,11974,0,25,24,1,0,0,25.0,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Edgeryders Team is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. Topic: Applying for the H2020 collective intelligence call - looking for operational partners and collaborators Time: Dec 11, 2019 08:30 PM Brussels Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/904722442 Meeting ID: 904 722 442 I set this up as a one off now. which time do you want for the recurring call?" 50,67270,2019-12-10T16:27:42.548Z,11974,2,24,23,1,1,0,19.8,66253,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:5, topic:11974""] Hi, as member of the DGOV community we have applied to other grants via the Institute for Innovative Governance Foundation as DGOV has no formal entity yet. I would be happy to take this role and also put lost of effort in the co-writing. I have experience with EU funding. Warm regards, Liliana. [/quote] Hi @anon3554387720 @anon3747875924 I have contacted my DGOV colleagues/friends who participated in the previous proposals for Nesta Collective Intelligence with the Institute of Innovative Governance, the Esanon2863106368ian foundation that supports us: https://www.instingov.org/. I have exchanged some messages on telegram with them, and here I am posting the last post, my invitation for them to join us over in this Edgeryders platform. I hope that they join us :slight_smile: ---- I think that we could join this proposal under the Institute of Innovative Governance (Esanon2863106368ian Foundation), the institution that supports us as DGOV already and that I put you all in contact with. I think that we could team up and support as researchers and facilitators of all governance aspects, coordination aspects. I would love to move the conversation over there. And I will published this same post on the anon1577251828 platform where we are getting organized for this proposal. I suggest that we all read the proposal and suggest our personal contributions to this research. There is a call anon2863106368ight about Collective Intelligence, and tomorrow evening there is another one for this proposal with Ruben (U Ghent researcher and lead developer/researcher for Solid). The posts are on the Edgeryders platform also." 51,67274,2019-12-10T17:32:10.000Z,11974,1,24,23,1,0,0,29.8,67270,anon3747875924,anon2860100070,"Hi all, excellent. Spoke with DFKI, for them it is too short notice as they have a lot of proposals due Jan 2020. Fraunhofer ist interested in a work package but not as lead / coordinator." 52,67292,2019-12-11T07:19:44.222Z,11974,0,24,23,1,1,0,9.8,67274,anon2860100070,anon3747875924,"[quote=""anon3747875924, post:51, topic:11974""] lead / coordinator [/quote] Let's talk about this with Ruben anon2863106368ight. I am sure that we can find support in our networks." 53,67293,2019-12-11T07:22:29.646Z,11974,1,25,24,1,1,0,15.0,67270,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:50, topic:11974""] Ruben [/quote] Dear @anon1753543892 Could you support us by facilitating a zoom room for us for anon2863106368ight at 8:30 pm? It will be very helpful also to record the call. It will be with Ruben, researcher at the University of Ghent and an important figure for the Solid project." 54,67296,2019-12-11T08:47:18.213Z,11974,0,26,25,11,0,0,90.2,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Here is the room as posted above: https://zoom.us/j/904722442 I can start the recording for you and we can see in anon2696444391 far you need me :)" 55,67300,2019-12-11T09:12:55.000Z,11974,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,67293,anon3747875924,anon2860100070,"Addendum re DFKI: colleagues couldn't anon2373157426 make out in the draft text what possible technological dev components might be - what exactly (platform, tools, incubator infrastructures etc) will have to be developed in the context of the core research project? If there is something concrete there might still be interest." 56,67305,2019-12-11T09:32:12.677Z,11974,0,25,24,1,0,0,10.0,67189,anon3828707713,anon2860100070,"mm heads up re Brexit - related risks, I would be a bit careful about UK based organisations till things clear up politically speaking." 57,67306,2019-12-11T09:34:48.298Z,11974,1,24,23,2,0,0,19.8,66920,anon3828707713,anon3554387720,Bonjour @anon244179891 - have a look at the concept note posted above by @anon3554387720 nd see if you/University of Bordeaux might be interested? 58,67317,2019-12-11T10:22:25.968Z,11974,2,26,25,1,0,0,35.2,67306,anon244179891,anon3828707713,"Hi @anon3828707713 thanks for mentioning me and inviting me to have a look at the concept note. What contribution would you guys expect from UB? Something in the flavour of pouring in SSNA? Or are you pointing at our local ""à la startup"" project developing SSNA tech? From what I can see, the project would be a great opportunity to team up again. (@anon Let me know. Cheers all, Guy" 59,67328,2019-12-11T10:49:00.000Z,11974,2,27,26,1,0,0,20.4,67317,anon3747875924,anon244179891,Hi @anon244179891 nice to e-meet - does UB also work with INRIA? I also thought of them as we have a local coop across ai research networks 60,67338,2019-12-11T11:21:33.508Z,11974,1,26,25,1,0,0,30.2,67317,anon3554387720,anon244179891,"Hello Guy! thanks for dropping by and your interest to find a way to collaborate :slight_smile: So what we are most urgently need right now is an operational partner that is trusted by the EC to handle the funds (and the associated bureaucracy). Of course an organisation taking this role is invited to be involved in other ways too, after all the paper work is the least fun part. I am not familiar with the research objectives of you or UB so I don't know where there would be another area of collaboration **yet**. It would be great if you were able to make it to our call anon2863106368ight at 8:30pm where we could dive deeper into those questions. If not, I am more than happy to jump on a call with you in the next days." 61,67352,2019-12-11T13:04:07.760Z,11974,1,29,28,1,0,0,15.8,67328,anon244179891,anon3747875924,"Hi Soenke, depends what you have in mind when asking ""also work with"". I was head of a Inria team between 2006 and 2013, I know a bunch of colleagues at Inria on their different sites (Paris, Nice, etc.). What team/people do you work with?" 62,67353,2019-12-11T13:08:24.883Z,11974,1,28,27,1,0,0,45.6,67338,anon244179891,anon3554387720,"Hi anon3554387720, I see. UB did endorse the fund management for opencare, a project we were involed in with EdegRyders. The management itself was two headed with myself and Alberto, which made sense since the vision was ER's while UB had the manpower and admin experience to run the funds and in a sense reassure the EC. That being said, I won't personally be able to act as coordinator for this project as I actually am appointed as Vice-President at our University. I can ask a colleague whether he would be willing. I presume he would only jump in if he knows he'll get backed up by someone who's involved in designing the project. I'll come back to you after I see my colleague." 63,67355,2019-12-11T13:34:00.526Z,11974,1,28,27,1,0,0,15.6,67353,anon3554387720,anon244179891,"> I can ask a colleague whether he would be willing. I presume he would only jump in if he knows he’ll get backed up by someone who’s involved in designing the project. You mean backed in doing the admin work by someone from the other consortium members? In any case I think it would be wise to hire someone from the money we get to support with that work, and get the person/team the support they need from the other consortium members. I wouldn't want anyone to be solely responsible for that kind of bureaucracy. I'm certain we'll figure something out where everyone feels good with. > I actually am appointed as Vice-President at our University Seems like a lot of work already :slight_smile: > I’ll come back to you after I see my colleague. Great thanks!" 64,67356,2019-12-11T13:46:13.995Z,11974,1,27,26,1,0,0,45.4,66141,anon2794261635,anon3554387720,"Hi all! For those I still didn't get the chance to work with - I'm the research coordinator at Edgeryders and I'll be joining you for the calls, mainly to keep track of the development of the application and also to help with anything if needed now, or in the later stage of writing the proposal. Looking forward and talk to you soon! :)" 65,67360,2019-12-11T14:18:16.486Z,11974,0,28,27,2,1,0,30.6,67356,anon3554387720,anon2794261635,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:63, topic:11974""] In any case I think it would be wise to hire someone from the money we get to support with that work, and get the person/team the support they need from the other consortium members. [/quote] to make the intention clear here: Of course the entire consortium will support anyone with what it takes to stem the admin & bureaucratic burden and set everything up smoothly. This will be a team effort." 66,67378,2019-12-11T19:00:04.896Z,11974,0,29,28,1,0,0,55.8,66141,anon2725583816,anon3554387720,"Hi, fairkom is part of a network of IT solution providers with a focus on sustainability. We offer open source based web services such as fairchat, fairmeeting, faircloud or board.net. We help organisations and companies to avoid having their data hosted at the big five cloud providers. We are organized as a partner network and put all surplus into open standards, FLOSS and commons projects. Yet we also do a lot of consulting, helping our customers to migrate and be happy with FLOSS solutions. We did have experience with large EC funded projects, also in the role of a coordinator, but not recently. We are also involved in several social design projects, that aim at a more fair economy, such as Fair.Coop. We would love to share our experience in various roles, as a facilitator, incubator or even as an active consortium member. Our bookkeeping and controlling is in-house and based on the Open Source tool ERPnext, which would easily allow to manage also larger funds. We do have accounting people in our team, but our not-for-profit organisation might be too small when it comes to an eligibility check for the organisational partner role. EDIT: I will get in touch with Vorarlberg University of Applied Sciences regarding the organisational role." 67,67397,2019-12-11T22:01:00.731Z,11974,0,29,28,1,0,0,55.8,67352,anon3747875924,anon244179891,"@anon244179891 Hi Guy, Brigitte Trousse and I are both involved in getting [enoll.org](Https://enoll.org)'s taskforce ""social impact of ai"" off the ground, and I think coop between inria and ai research orgs in Germany (I am also affiliated at dfki.de) will expand so I would love to link my role in this emerging proposal to this franco-german coop dynamic someanon2696444391 as well. Or at least see what linkages there are, better understand them. We live on the border and work with regional colleagues also on ai projects and so I am curious about what part of all of this might also become part of this very local, very concrete cross-border exchange." 69,67523,2019-12-15T10:54:14.045Z,11974,1,28,27,1,1,0,15.6,66889,anon244179891,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:22, topic:11974""] Partners can join from [associated countries ](https://ec.europa.eu/research/participants/data/ref/h2020/grants_manual/hi/3cpart/h2020-hi-list-ac_en.pdf) outside the EU. But: no proposal is likely to be successful if not led by one of the heavy hitters in the NGI space. @anon3554387720 is aware of this. [/quote] Copy that." 70,67525,2019-12-15T14:35:20.414Z,11974,1,27,26,1,0,0,15.4,67523,anon3747875924,anon244179891,"@anon3554387720 Hi Oliver, is there an update re potential coordinator? If there isn't one by the end of this week I fear it might not be possible to submit." 71,67541,2019-12-16T01:15:50.086Z,11974,0,27,26,2,0,0,15.4,67525,anon3554387720,anon3747875924,"Hey Soenke we have 2 more leads that could work out, but yeah it does not look good so far. @anon244179891 Any news from your side? News from my side, I opened a new Google Doc with a cleaner version of the proposal we can use to send around, and continuously can now extend with finished sections coming in. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MW2RnjXJZKoiF17rqduGtPh8826m6b6Doe-QSGO0DSM/edit?usp=sharing I copied the TODOs section over to the working copy proposal (the old one). Any comments are welcome, especially on the items of ""other todos""" 72,67551,2019-12-16T11:45:33.594Z,11974,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,66141,anon3379761435,anon3554387720,@anon1965424313 @anon3554654177 are you seeing this? 73,67567,2019-12-16T17:31:51.407Z,11974,1,25,24,1,1,0,15.0,67328,anon2860100070,anon3747875924,"[quote=""anon3747875924, post:59, topic:11974""] ai research networks [/quote] I can also bring in IDSIA if wanted. Let me know it." 74,67593,2019-12-17T07:43:24.182Z,11974,0,25,24,1,0,0,10.0,67567,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"Good morning, I have contacted Rachid and we can count with Alliance Block as a partner. Alliance Block: [https://allianceblock.io/](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://allianceblock.io/&sa=D&ust=1576572017588000&usg=AFQjCNE9cwdH771dxhaRguP-QA9CGrzVIA) Please read this article: [https://medium.com/@anon" 75,67599,2019-12-17T08:54:06.548Z,11974,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"hello guys, please tell me the next time you want to use the call room :)" 76,67678,2019-12-17T17:09:20.390Z,11974,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Here a folder with the recordings of your last coordination call: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pxIws9u_CwM3__3l4_cn6xS9M1Kak5-a" 77,67704,2019-12-18T14:59:35.914Z,11974,1,25,24,1,0,0,45.0,66141,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"@anon We are now in a state where we wanna invite potential collaborators. What we are trying is to get the support from a wide network of supporters to sanon2696444391 a strong community backing to the evaluators of the proposal. Please take the 3min to sign up, and feel free to pass this on to any organisation, community space, event host or person you think has an interest to be on board with this. Here you find more information and anon2696444391 to sign up: https://www.notion.so/Invitation-to-the-WISDOM-initiative-2b3900cbeb2247b195f5f901f44ea479" 78,67714,2019-12-18T15:50:33.594Z,11974,0,24,23,3,0,0,19.8,67704,anon2868057530,anon3554387720,Posted to secure scuttlebutt…. Great work! 79,67720,2019-12-18T17:18:57.558Z,11974,1,24,23,1,0,0,74.8,66141,anon995479489,anon3554387720,"I'm not sure if this tweet from @anon Indicate your interest! TODAY is the deadline! Get your ICT proposal checked in early 2020! 👉 Ideal-ist proposal check: https://buff.ly/2Px0WNc [📅] 8 January 📌 Rome or remotely" 80,67727,2019-12-18T19:07:54.642Z,11974,0,24,23,1,0,0,54.8,67720,anon3828707713,anon995479489,ping @anon3554387720 @anon659222949 thanks for heads up @anon995479489 81,67728,2019-12-18T19:16:29.741Z,11974,1,24,23,1,0,0,29.8,66141,anon659222949,anon3554387720,Indeed! Thanks @anon995479489! 82,67729,2019-12-18T20:03:10.623Z,11974,1,24,23,1,0,0,44.8,67728,anon3554387720,anon659222949,"thanks @anon995479489! @anon" 83,67840,2019-12-21T13:42:41.159Z,11974,1,22,21,1,0,0,14.4,67729,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Hello @anon3554387720, yes, I can set up your community calls regularly for Thursdays. The massage for the last one sadly recached me too late as was travelling that day. I can set them up weekly 8 pm from now on out and share a calendar. Should I do that?" 84,67853,2019-12-21T15:57:29.038Z,11974,0,23,22,1,1,0,9.6,67840,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:83, topic:11974""] Should I do that? [/quote] yes please my dear Maria, I missed the call as I did not get the zoom link on time, and I have been working on finding the coordinator, and wanted to share what I had been doing..." 85,67856,2019-12-21T16:03:07.355Z,11974,0,24,23,1,0,0,9.8,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Edgeryders Team is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. Topic: H2020 Collective Intelligence Call Time: Dec 26, 2019 08:00 PM Brussels Every day, until Dec 27, 2019, 2 occurrence(s) Dec 26, 2019 08:00 PM Dec 27, 2019 08:00 PM Please download and import the following iCalendar (.ics) files to your calendar system. Daily: https://zoom.us/meeting/uZQoc-uuqT4vwb5dbeYfkg7vXiBXa351Ug/ics?icsToken=98tyKu2oqz8oHNOQtVztY6kqW5n4b8-1lGZM_6dfmSbjCCcEdDv_FNpDYecuJd-B Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/405426755 Meeting ID: 405 426 755" 86,68077,2020-01-02T21:29:41.136Z,11974,1,22,21,1,0,0,44.4,66141,anon3203746736,anon3554387720,What is the status of this now? Was there just a break for the holiday season? 87,68230,2020-01-06T10:01:48.578Z,11974,2,20,19,3,0,0,89.0,68077,anon3554387720,anon3203746736,"Thanks @anon3203746736 for checking in. Yes this is still going and in full steam. We also have a strong operational partner potentially. (Robert Gordon University of Aberdeen and their Innovation Unit) Getting back from the dean until Wednesday presumably. Last minute :slight_smile: with a week to go! The progress is to be seen here still: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n7qF4CqnllUTSnIXBFg9QNVXugsK9wG2p0DGgBb4_7k/edit# We are now in the of wrapping up everything so the Application is ready to be sent off by the 14th." 88,68253,2020-01-06T15:52:01.515Z,11974,1,20,19,1,0,0,14.0,68230,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,Great to hear that! Do you want to have another group call on Thursday 20:00? 89,68258,2020-01-06T16:03:19.348Z,11974,0,22,21,1,0,0,24.4,68253,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,"The invitation went out for 8pm, but yes :) it would be good to have you joining!" 90,68261,2020-01-06T16:18:16.364Z,11974,1,21,20,1,0,0,14.2,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,20:00 it is :) 91,68278,2020-01-06T17:18:26.482Z,11974,0,19,18,1,0,0,8.8,68261,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"Won't be able to join but am willing to contribute, also to add us as partner if that helps in any way. Am following the progress in the doc. Happy to catch up early Friday." 92,68503,2020-01-09T18:31:28.034Z,11974,0,19,18,1,0,0,23.8,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"I am opening the room with this code againÖ Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/405426755 afterwards will update to a new recurring event with a google calendar link :)" 93,68509,2020-01-09T19:59:23.862Z,11974,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"hello again and thank you for the call. I would like to set up the next line of calls. Mondays or tuesdays afternoons have been asked for. We have a few anon1577251828 calls at those times, but we could do for example Tuesdays 17:00 to 18:00 ? That would be 8:00 in the morning pacific time if I am correct, would that work for tym?" 94,68578,2020-01-10T19:53:42.863Z,11974,0,18,17,1,1,0,8.6,68509,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:93, topic:11974""] anon1577251828 calls [/quote] Hi Maria, I would like to participate in other calls if possible to open my mind :) feel free to send me calendar invites." 95,68579,2020-01-10T20:06:06.038Z,11974,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,66141,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,I checked in with a few people and Tuesday 5pm seems to be a good time! Can you share an iCal file that I can pass around to people and put into any documentation? 96,68580,2020-01-10T20:15:07.707Z,11974,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,66141,anon2860100070,anon3554387720,"Hi all, anon2696444391 are things going? I tried to join the call yesterday but it seems the link changed and I just logged in here. I have contacted some people but so far from my side we haven't found a good lead applicant. Last Thursday, we spoke a bit with Oliver about this and one of the ideas was to have Edgeryders as the applicant. I am not sure if this was maybe spoken in the videocall. I know that the admin of this is huge,... And I also know that we could work together to do that administration a group task, collectively. I have shared a budget template to Oliver. I have been communicating mostly via email. Sorry that I totally forgot to post things over here :slight_smile: Looking forward to know anon2696444391 things are progressing. P2P Paris Festival has been great!" 97,68584,2020-01-10T20:33:50.242Z,11974,1,18,17,1,0,0,28.6,66141,anon2860100070,anon3554387720,"@anon1753543892, I have talked to @anon3554387720 about my involvement as a partner or member of a partner team for this project. Adding a new partner like the P2P Foundation would probably not be a good move, and it is interesting to add it as network/support partner. Regarding my personal participation, I would like to check in if for the purpose of this proposal I could be considered an Edgeryders team member as I am a freelancer at the moment, I don't really have a formal strong partner to be part of. I would love to contribute to the community building of the incubator and support of the community with documentation and other resources like research on CI. By the way, do you have the recording of our community zoom call on Collective Intelligence? Warm regards, Liliana." 98,68611,2020-01-11T18:32:10.464Z,11974,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,68584,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"Hello @anon2860100070, I think this is the recording of the call you are referring to: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13AEfumbuTnQfHREUyjTa1cUxsAIovUAy?usp=sharing. It is the one from the 10th of December when you presented :). Thank you very much!" 99,68676,2020-01-13T17:41:45.013Z,11974,0,20,19,2,0,0,14.0,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Edgeryders Team is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. Topic: H2020 Collective Intelligence Call Time: Jan 16, 2020 05:00 PM Brussels Every week on Thu, until Feb 20, 2020, 6 occurrence(s) Jan 16, 2020 05:00 PM Jan 23, 2020 05:00 PM Jan 30, 2020 05:00 PM Feb 6, 2020 05:00 PM Feb 13, 2020 05:00 PM Feb 20, 2020 05:00 PM Please download and import the following iCalendar (.ics) files to your calendar system. Weekly: https://zoom.us/meeting/upcufuqqpjsq4YAUKG3jBunupQBRjG3xXA/ics?icsToken=98tyKu6rrTIpGNyVsFzHUbMvA538bvHykyV3i5Z2u0zvITVddxPHFNBIFeFnKPmB Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/733932800 Meeting ID: 733 932 800 ping @anon3554387720" 100,68682,2020-01-13T18:50:07.810Z,11974,0,21,20,1,0,0,9.2,66141,anon2860100070,anon3554387720,"Hi Oliver @anon3554387720 Could you share the link to the budget if any? And could you let me know anon2696444391 it went on Friday with the possible lead partner? Tomorrow, Tuesday, I have 3 hour free to work on the proposal. Could you let me know anon2696444391 to best use them? Where is help more needed or appreciated? Warm regards, Liliana." 101,68713,2020-01-14T16:11:35.340Z,11974,1,20,19,1,0,0,14.0,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,We are still using this link today: https://zoom.us/j/405426755 ping @anon2860100070 102,68716,2020-01-14T16:38:32.157Z,11974,1,20,19,1,0,0,14.0,68713,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,at what time is the call? 103,68718,2020-01-14T16:40:46.141Z,11974,0,20,19,4,0,0,24.0,68716,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,@anon2860100070 going on at the moment. 17:00 to 18:00 104,68719,2020-01-14T16:47:44.402Z,11974,1,20,19,1,0,0,14.0,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Edgeryders Team is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. Topic: Collective Intelligence Incubator Time: Jan 21, 2020 05:00 PM Brussels Every week on Tue, until Feb 18, 2020, 5 occurrence(s) Jan 21, 2020 05:00 PM Jan 28, 2020 05:00 PM Feb 4, 2020 05:00 PM Feb 11, 2020 05:00 PM Feb 18, 2020 05:00 PM Please download and import the following iCalendar (.ics) files to your calendar system. Weekly: https://zoom.us/meeting/upcufuqqpjsq4YAUKG3jBunupQBRjG3xXA/ics?icsToken=98tyKu6rrTIpGNyVsFzHUbMvA538bvHykyV3i5Z2u0zvITVddxPHFNBIFeFnKPmB Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/733932800 Meeting ID: 733 932 800" 105,68812,2020-01-16T11:17:52.216Z,11974,2,19,18,1,1,0,18.8,68719,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:104, topic:11974""] Tue [/quote] Hi Nadia, I have imported this for Tuesdays, and removed the old one from Thursdays. Is there an open anon1577251828 calendar where I could get informed of other interesting calls? Warm regards, Liliana." 106,68817,2020-01-16T11:53:18.081Z,11974,0,18,17,1,1,0,8.6,68230,anon2860100070,anon3554387720,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:87, topic:11974""] The progress is to be seen here still: [/quote] Is this the working document still?" 107,68877,2020-01-17T12:45:58.100Z,11974,1,17,16,1,0,0,43.4,66141,anon3661391758,anon3554387720,"Hi there, My work is also on these topics and level. Soenke knows me for some years and engaging in discussion with Alberto Cottica and Marina Batinić. I'm visiting Berlin end of Jan and wanted to see if Oliver or Purpose Ventures might be open to a meeting on your project. There is usually benefit in these exchanges and hope this format/timing is appropriate. - John" 108,69007,2020-01-20T15:43:19.148Z,11974,0,17,16,2,0,0,13.4,68877,anon1753543892,anon3661391758,"Ping @anon3554387720, @anon3661391758 would like to meet you. @anon3661391758, maybe you can join into our call tomorrow 17:00 CET to discuss an inperson meetup :)" 109,69112,2020-01-21T16:56:04.268Z,11974,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,68812,anon3828707713,anon2860100070,ping @anon3197437925 do we have anything like this functionality in discourse? 110,69114,2020-01-21T16:58:15.631Z,11974,2,16,15,1,0,0,18.2,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"This project is now moving towards finding other financing options. Therefore branding and pitching are relevant topics now. @anon1222839618, it would be great if you could maybe give some feedback or recommendations on anon2696444391 to pitch something like this :). Your powerpitches would be a great help :)" 111,69126,2020-01-21T17:23:57.297Z,11974,0,16,15,1,1,0,38.2,69112,anon3197437925,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:105, topic:11974""]Is there an open anon1577251828 calendar where I could get informed of other interesting calls?[/quote] Yes … go to the [#event tag page](/tags/event) and subscribe to it by choosing ""Watching first post"" in the top-right dropdown that initially sanon2696444391s just a circle icon. If everyone tags their event-related topics that way, you'll be notified of all events … we're not super consistent with the tagging still, but I fix whatever event I see untagged. Good luck :)" 112,69177,2020-01-22T09:03:05.209Z,11974,0,16,15,2,0,0,28.2,69114,anon3661391758,anon1753543892,I might be able to help here. 113,69212,2020-01-22T23:36:43.963Z,11974,0,17,16,1,0,0,68.4,69114,anon1222839618,anon1753543892,"Hello! Here you can find an handout of the things that we usually teach in our classes, maybe is useful at this stage :slight_smile: [PowerPitch - handout.pdf|attachment](upload://iAkBZ23wA5OJSQbsuZy2vxBOseR.pdf) (8.2 MB)" 115,70133,2020-02-11T18:21:22.723Z,11974,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"We just had a anon2373157426 nice call on the further development of the Incubator, NGI and OCI Lab resonating and feeding into each other. Here are the notes from the chat: > what to do: What is OCI Lab? What is the plan for the incubator? Who meets when in Stockholm? > OCI Lab started with workshops and webinars during the Festival. It brings together, for example, the perfect pitch workshop > Question: Would it be interesting to invite some of the OCI lab participants to theses calls as vice versa case studies? > we have to identify which setups and properties the platform would need to provide the community part of this. > what does NGI need to be a low-cost pre-acceleration tool? > also mapping out anon2696444391 the communities and projects could feed into each other >> drawing vectors > Channels for energy and excitement to go > 1. New co-working space to be used as physical hub for regenerative economy > 2. Building group identity > 3. Whitepaper > Use that to raise cash from private individuals and companies > Role of online in building that identity and the regenerative economy hub > People to focus on fundraising effort > Funraisers identified? > Help to put together the whitepaper > Commit to fundraising > And already has cocoon facilitator > > 4. NGI Community/platform: Sorting/setting up topics as knowledgebase and workspace for project development. > https://anon1577251828.eu/t/modular-web-kit-strategy/12063/9 > websites automatically build from the platform. > ""Designing an engaging Engins"" # We want to band together for the 2020 strategy! this means: We will have weekly 2 hours dedicated calls. 9-11 of March, NGI and OCI team will meet in Stockholm to plan strategy and Incubator core team will call in. In April NGI, OCI and Incubator team will meet in person for an intensive work meeting in Stockholm or Berlin." 116,70257,2020-02-13T19:58:30.299Z,11974,1,15,14,1,0,0,43.0,70133,anon3661391758,anon1753543892,"Mechanism design is a field of economics that can be applied to this project. This is something we can use in the project design and reference to validate the model. https://www.sss.ias.edu/files/papers/econpaper81.pdf * Mechanism design theory is an economic framework for understanding anon2696444391 businesses can achieve optimal outcomes when individual self-interest and incomplete information may get in the way. * The theory is derived from game theory and accounts for individual incentives and motivations, and anon2696444391 these can work for the benefit of the company." 117,70361,2020-02-17T13:24:06.113Z,11974,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,70257,anon1753543892,anon3661391758,"@anon3661391758 using mechanism design, anon2696444391 would you see and articulate the incentives inherent to this project? Would be great if you could join us Tuesday evening in the Incubator call. 17:00 -18:00 CET. ( https://zoom.us/j/733932800 )" 118,70362,2020-02-17T13:26:27.767Z,11974,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Also: To everyone interested in this thread and project: I will move this thread to our new NGI cathegory: # ""Open Proposal Writing"" Category https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/applications # Description: This is a public open workspace in which you can craft your proposals, calls, project plans and similar. In doing so you can get help and profit from the experience of other community members while simultaneously contributing to a growing knowledge base. Proposal writing for grants, answering calls or wording them yourself, finding funding or partners are complex processes. Institutions have developed theses processes and brought them to a point where it is harder and harder to break into the systems from outside. Here we have the opportunity to help each other as a free community of individuals to empower each other’s projects. **What you can do here:** * Post your 1st, 2nd or 3rd draft and get feedback and help * Share and analyses successful and unsuccessful application experiences * Read, give feedback and contribute to the drafts others have shared. **Let’s help each other realising ideas that could help everyone!** *Tips for what information to include:* 1. What is your project about? What’s the problem it solves and anon2696444391? 2. What stage are you in? 3. What call are you answering, grant are you applying for or what other goal do you have with the text/presentation you are crafting?? 4. What do you need concrete help with? People? Skills? Guidance? Clarity?" 119,70401,2020-02-18T18:04:37.000Z,11974,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,70361,anon3661391758,anon1753543892,"I missed today's call. It is in regular calendar schedule now, so speak next week ++ J" 120,70527,2020-02-25T09:42:19.752Z,11974,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,70401,anon1753543892,anon3661391758,"@anon3661391758, @anon2860100070,@anon3554387720 And everyone else interested in this discussion and development. Here a reminder for our meeting today 17:00 CET https://zoom.us/j/733932800 ALSO: I moved the discussion to the new proposal writing cathegory" 121,70619,2020-02-26T16:06:38.459Z,11974,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"this might be interesting to those following this thread: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/funding-call-anon2696444391-can-ai-enhanced-collective-intelligence-enable-new-forms-of-community-responses-to-the-climate-crisis/12733" 122,70778,2020-03-02T15:32:48.991Z,11974,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,https://www.nesta.org.uk/feature/collective-intelligence-grants/ ping @anon3554387720 123,70779,2020-03-02T15:33:04.736Z,11974,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,70778,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,Ping @anon2860100070 124,70858,2020-03-03T17:12:19.626Z,11974,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,66141,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,Thank you @anon3661391758 for a very nice call. Your feedback on the project is very much appreciated :) 1,66687,2019-12-02T16:06:26.580Z,12082,0,11,10,8,0,0,87.2,66687,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"## Economic Sustainability for Open Source projects Q: Why would someone do open source, rather than charge for a service? A: (Alex) Charging for my service wouldn’t be compatible with the future I want. Erik: Open source enables that as many people as possible can utilize your service. So anon2696444391 do you make it economically sustainable? Eg. funds, corporate sponsors. Could we make decision work better? Could we make progressive funds (ie. escalating over time based on success) “What do you think about decreasing expenses, rather than increasing prices?” We still need to be able to give developers enough to survive. Types of open source: eg. libraries, Mastodon, Q: Why is ‘freemium’ not viable? A: hard to implement it in a way that does not limit the use. Only works for software as a service. How about other services? Are we looking at a new emerging way of open source? License 0 (ie. if you’re not a company and not making money off of it, it’s free). Parroting license - due diligence. Would make it possible for commercial users to be forced to pay for it. A business model problem - we need good coders in bulk. Coders need to pay the rent. Rent is going up. Coders don’t want to be martyrs. Commercial employers pay well. How do you get enough money into a project to make it great? Q: What types of open source projects are struggling with funding. Open source does not give return of investment for investors. Funders necessarily need to not be expecting direct returns. ‘Bundlesource’ ‘board of users’ that can take decisions on prioritizing features. ‘Tragedy of the commons’ half of our fundings come from one person who is on a monthly donation. Most other donors give small donations. Eg. John says he gives up to 5€ a month, but only 1€ a month pr. one other person who also donate 1€ a month. If 5 people also give 5€ a month, they all give 5€ a month. Q: Whcih business model for software is thriving? A: ads, venture capital, software as a service. Q: What donation model works best? A: patreon, governments, **churches** . Create a religion and make billionaires pay a shitload of money. Discussing the potential for developers go on an international coding strike. As a coder, if we are faced with the option between getting really well paid and doing what you believe in - it’s hard. If stakeholders are small, independent people - does propaganda/outreach have a role to play? Could expand the base of donors. More users also mean more bug-fixing for individual people - lots of legwork. How is open source understood: ‘The code that makes up the product is publicly available. The product itself is sometimes free too’. If open source starts getting public traction, lobbyism starts becoming an opportunity. Microsoft is lobbying for their cases, open sources needs theirs. Hb open source government? Resource allocation problem Governments are becoming more fluent in understanding anon2696444391 data affects the public space. Very reactionary, not very progressive. Scuttlebutt is aiming to find ways to live with decreased expenses (ie. less dependency on dominant system) to give more space for creating an alternative. The movement needs salespeople! Churches are being successful raising money Open source does offer the individual return of investment for the developer in terms of offering value to the community, which offers both a sense of purpose for the developer and goodwill from the community. To monetize this Idea of making a documentary about open source. There’s a powerful narrative in offering an alternative to facebook, google, etc. ‘We don’t actually need any of it’. Point: raised awareness does not necessarily create. Lots of people are concerned about privacy. ## Main takeaways Organize an open source strike increase solidarity Create a documentary to inform people Start a religion, lobbying group Incentivized donations (bigger donations give bigger rights? patreon) Feedback from audience: Great idea with religion - religion is the opposite of economy, a place where exchange is not measured. Religion is mostly focused on *giving service*" 2,69513,2020-01-28T13:39:08.460Z,12082,1,9,8,1,0,0,56.8,66687,anon2786360199,anon2868057530,"I initiated/lead this discussion and have since also discovered gitcoin.co/grants, which is extensively used by the Ethereum community to fund public goods. The Ethereum Foundation have contributed a matching pool of $100,000 which is distributed using quadratic funding. It's now in its fourth iteration, and the third one was reviewed by Vitalik Buterin here: https://vitalik.ca/general/2019/10/24/gitcoin.html I could imagine something similar being created but with matching from the EU or other government institutions (perhaps earmarked for particular categories of open source) with great effect on the sustainability of open source." 3,69538,2020-01-28T20:01:45.132Z,12082,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,69513,anon2868057530,anon2786360199,"Thanks @anon2786360199! I panon2945747231d a few people on scuttlebutt about this. Probably copied you, I don't know :laughing:" 4,69542,2020-01-28T22:05:24.987Z,12082,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,66687,anon3828707713,anon2868057530,"@anon2868057530 @anon2786360199 @anon3005461236 @anon1753543892 So I did a twitter search for ""open source maintainers"" and discovered a treasure trove of resources, activities etc that might be of use for this discussion: https://twitter.com/search?q=open%20source%20maintainers&src=typed_query" 1,54203,2019-05-30T09:51:47.044Z,10031,0,30,29,32,0,0,168.0,54203,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"_This is not written by me, but by my colleague Eduard for Coda Story's newsletter. I'm sharing this, because I think he touches on some things that are pertinent to the discussion we've been having here, and I'd be interested to hear what you think about smart cities:_ This week, we published a story from Nafeez Ahmed about [the American and other foreign companies that helped build China’s “smart cities.”](https://codastory.com/authoritarian-tech/silicon-valley%E2%80%99s-scramble-for-china/) Those smart cities have become a feature of Xinjiang’s police state that now [persecutes Uyghurs](https://codastory.com/authoritarian-tech/uyghur-women-fighting-china-surveillance/). It’s a story about the dark side of a seemingly well-intentioned urban planning paradigm. Smart cities are supposed to be the bright future of high-density living, but China’s government has been using this technology for human rights violations. But does it really take an authoritarian government to bring out the dark side of smart cities? In the past few months, I’ve had a Google alert going for “smart cities,” hoping to keep abreast of where things are going. Almost every link Google sends me is celebratory, even utopian. Just this week, I’ve been sent articles calling smart cities the “Future of Urban Development” and a “Smart Future for Smart People.” But there has been criticism as well, and a key one centers around a process that has seemingly anon2488317424 overlap with China’s drive to build a surveillance state: the rise of “surveillance capitalism.” Harvard’s Shoshana Zuboff, who coined the term, sees smart cities as a way for tech companies to expand the logic of surveillance capitalism – the endless accumulation of data to predict and modify human behavior for the benefit of advertisers – into the city. Google’s projects in Toronto and New York, for example, have seen the installation of advertising technology on sidewalks, alongside free internet access kiosks. In other words, the logic of ad-supported platforms – free services in exchange for data – is literally being transferred onto the sidewalk. As David A. Banks puts it in [a recent column for Real Life Magazine](https://reallifemag.com/built-to-shill/), “With the surveillance technologies built into their Toronto and Hudson Yards projects, Google does to these buildings what they made billions doing to the internet: monitoring advertising opportunities.” Chinese-style smart city police states may be on the horizon in the West. In the U.S., for example, one could imagine ICE using smart city tech to track migrants in border zones. But another more immediate threat, the privatization of public space for profit, as in Google’s Sidewalk Labs project, is already happening." 2,54207,2019-05-30T11:47:17.643Z,10031,1,21,20,1,0,0,29.2,54203,anon659222949,anon2945747231,"This topic has been the subject of some of the salons organized by @anon3554654177. Rob, do you have any insights to share?" 3,54212,2019-05-30T12:19:41.682Z,10031,1,20,19,1,0,0,29.0,54207,anon3554654177,anon659222949,"Hi Hugi, Inge, Yes, a lot. Best in a workshop. Inge, where are you based? Rob" 4,54213,2019-05-30T12:24:11.313Z,10031,1,20,19,1,0,0,14.0,54212,anon2945747231,anon3554654177,"I'm - unfortunately - based in Tbilisi, Georgia (unless you're planning one there ;) ). Any chance they've been recorded and can be seen online, or are they written up somewhere? Know my colleagues would also be very interested (based in Philadelphia and Tbilisi). And, think the subject deserves a discussion in Internet of Humans topic, as in anon2696444391 can IoT and Smart Cities **work towards helping people** without massively invading their privacy? How safe is data that is collected from being hacked?" 5,54215,2019-05-30T12:35:10.915Z,10031,1,19,18,1,1,0,28.8,54213,anon659222949,anon2945747231,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:4, topic:10031""] I’m - unfortunately - based in Tbilisi, Georgia [/quote] Georgia is fantastic, so I'm not sure this will be unfortunate in the long run! This is a true benefit of being remote first and working online/offline – voices from outside of the usual suspects in the old affluent cities of Western Europe." 6,54217,2019-05-30T12:37:02.831Z,10031,1,19,18,2,0,0,18.8,54215,anon2945747231,anon659222949,"well, unfortunate in the sense that we don't have salons (yet?!) on IoT by Rob ;)" 7,54222,2019-05-30T13:29:04.665Z,10031,0,20,19,1,0,0,69.0,54217,anon3554654177,anon2945747231,"Tblisi is not EU unfortunately but I will be in Tbilisi for sure in the coming years, it seems to new Berlin in a way I hear. This is a good start :slight_smile: I soon realized that things were serious. I couldn't believe that such a scenario of “connecting everything with everything” was now being put forward as a positive systemic framework for the entire planet. Realizing that the desired outcome was individuating all objects and embedding reading and sensing capabilities in a subgroup, I started looking into the Electronic Product Code (EPC) Global Object Name Service (ONS) schemes of building an ONS for all objects and goods. I saw hardware costs fracture and hardware boards in cheap print, and I found myself in a very curious state from 2000 to 2004. Then RepRap, the brainchild of Adrian Bowyer (later giftwrapped by MIT as Fab Lab), hit the street, and open hardware 3D printing started taking over manufacturing. In response, I cofounded Bricolabs in 2004 with Denis “Jaromil” Roio of [dyne.org](https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/dyne.org), Felipe Fonseca of MetaReciclagem, Bronac Ferran of the Arts Council England, and Matt Ratto ([http://criticalmaking.com](http://criticalmaking.com/)). Hackers and activists began to formulate positive visions of agency over this space (https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/brico). One example of such agency is the Dowse network appliance ([http://dowse.eu](http://dowse.eu/)), a building-block resulting from the work of [dyne.org](https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/dyne.org). At the time, I would think to myself, “OK, there is a Matrix plan. It is un-hackable. It is like air. Should we go off the grid? Or do we have our own agency?” https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8090451" 8,54224,2019-05-30T13:33:22.252Z,10031,1,19,18,1,0,0,28.8,54203,anon659222949,anon2945747231,"To bring in some of the ongoing conversations in around the block, as I understand them: One perspective on anon2696444391 to address this is to try to integrate smart contracts, distributed data models and IoT technology to keep the sensor data contextual, rather than have it flow into huge datasets controlled by companies or governments. Many groups around the world are experimenting with this. In many ways, I don't see many other ways forward. Sensors connected to networks *will* be everywhere in just a few years, that is pretty much inevitable at this point. Benefits are too huge for governments and companies to ignore. What needs to happen is that a ""human-centric"" model that keeps your data in the context where it belongs, and secured by smart contracts and cryptography, becomes good enough and open enough that it just makes sense for companies and governments to use it. Making such sensory data available to anyone who wants it, and making it irreversibly linked to contracts that only allow its use in limited contexts, is one approach to reap the benefits while doing some damage control to avoid complete dystopia. In broad terms, every time data is 'emitted' by a sensor, that data would be coupled to a contract in a distributed ledger (like a blockchain), available to everyone. Decoding the data can only be done by negotiating the contract to gain access to a key with which to decrypt it." 9,54225,2019-05-30T13:42:23.985Z,10031,1,19,18,1,0,0,28.8,54224,anon3554654177,anon659222949,"Yes, that is the kind of argument that is helpful to my work. I am building that in a coherent framework of three Taskforce, one on Entitlements (was identity), one on Architectures (especially 5G) and one on Services (including blockchain). Anyone who wants to be on these very low very low mail mailinglists, just sending notes and briefings as a lot of people there (like all of us) are way too busy, is welcome just mail me at kranenbu at xs4all.nl I can understand a lot of feelings and first impressions of Millennials about what looks like to them a connected world 'all of a sudden' or a situation that can be 'avoided'. Me and friends confronted that as a situation 20 to 15 years ago and have been painstakingly working towards creating building blocks for the best possible b lance between centralization and decentralization. We look at that world in a realistic way, meaning there is no romantic way out, no naive escape, of course if you want there is still a temporary bubble you can build with a few friends - but we are working for the best and most inclusive zone of connectivity for everybody, every person and as we pay taxes in Europe, that for us is Europe." 10,54226,2019-05-30T13:48:51.367Z,10031,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,54225,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"if you are interested you can look at my text from 2008: We need to move to debate further from this seemingly deadlocked polarised state it appears we are at now. Distributing yourself as data into the environment has been the revolving wheel of progress for our conceptions and applications of technology. Location-based, real-time – services, applications to strengthen communities, and the capacity to generate high quality data in information overload, these are all possibilities within a wired connected environment that need serious exploration and research. In Art and Agency, an Anthropological Theory47, Alfred Gell puts emphasis “upon art as a form of instrumental action: the making of things as a means of influencing the thoughts and actions of others”. He defines volt sorcery as the “practice of inflicting harm on the prototype of an index by inflicting harm on the index, for example, sticking pins into a wax image of the prototype”. In Gell’s theory the index is located in the region where the sphere of agency (the primary agent) overlaps with the vulnerability of thecausal milieu of the recipient. In our case the index is located in the region where the sphere of agency of the firmware on the hard disks (control) overlaps with its openness to different practices and interpretations by the hive software. The question is, can we immobilize or reformulate the subject (the set of business practices and real people articulating their agency through these business practices of patents and intellectual property laws) in this way? Seizing and scheming towards this opportunity to make sense, to have fully analyzed and grasped a situation – such as the recent individual agency in open source content-networks-software and hardware – will not lead to major organizational, political, and design breakthroughs, if we are not able to fully grasp the trajectory from thing as gathering places for spaces and discussion, from ‘matters of concern’: “A heuristic use of the term ‘thing’ has also been adopted by Bruno Latour, who, after Heidegger, has worked to transform the semantic emphasis of ‘things’ from ‘matters of concern’. Drawing on older etymologies in which ‘thing’ denoted a gathering place, a space for discussion and negotiation; Latour has rehabilitated this sense of the term as a way out of the twin cul-de-sac of constructivism and objectivity”. The story is no longer metaphor, no longer as if or ‘as’ something else, no, the story is the thing now, it is the protocol. https://www.networkcultures.org/_uploads/notebook2_theinternetofthings.pdf" 11,54229,2019-05-30T13:52:18.230Z,10031,1,18,17,1,0,0,28.6,54226,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"and sorry if it is a bit long but it has been a while I looke at it and it actually I think makes a lot of sense now :) I can use it: 0. In order to find productive principles we will have to make two moves; one is to go back to the arguments that led to l’Encyclopédie of Diderot et d’Alembert and see if we can find through their arguments a way to unthink and undo the classification as default (every object on the planet can have its own ip address with IPv6)57 and the other one is to find a way to articulate as performative practice the idea of a parallel movement without recursing to a mode of opposition based on anti classification , or oppositional ways of working. Jean Le Rond d’Alembert writes in Preliminary Discourse to the Encyclopedia of Diderot:“... it is perhaps among the artisans that one should go to find the most admirable proofs of the sagacity, the patience, and the resources of the intellect. I admit that the greater part of the arts has been invented anon2488317424 by anon2488317424 and that it has taken a very long period of centuries in order to bring watches, for example, to the point of1 ![page43image2977713424|19.560000x9.000000](blob:https://anon1577251828.eu/76dc95c4-8d22-4355-b035-84404f72be9d)![page43image2977713424|19.560000x9.000000](blob:https://anon1577251828.eu/76dc95c4-8d22-4355-b035-84404f72be9d)![page43image2977713424|19.560000x9.000000](blob:https://anon1577251828.eu/76dc95c4-8d22-4355-b035-84404f72be9d)![page43image2977713424|19.560000x9.000000](blob:https://anon1577251828.eu/76dc95c4-8d22-4355-b035-84404f72be9d) perfection that we see. But is it not the same for the sciences? How many discoveries which immortalized their authors were prepared for by the work of the preceding centuries, even having been developed to their maturity, right up to the point that they demanded only one more step to be taken? And not to leave watch-making, why do we not esteem those to whom we owe the fusee, the escapement, and the repeating works [of watches] as much as we esteem those who have successively worked on perfecting algebra? Moreover, if I can believe those philosophers who do not so despise the mechanical arts that they refuse to study them, there are certain machines so complicated, and in which all the parts depend so much on each other, that it is difficult to imagine that the invention would be due to more than one man”. Not only is the mechanical seen as a collaborative effort and process, but the mechanical arts are thought on the same conceptual level as the arts and the sciences, especially because the knowledge gained and the theories put forward build upon layers and layers of collaborative practical experience. The project of the Encyclopédie is the starting point for all questions relating to the Enlightenment and “the project of the modern library itself”. Yet does this mean that there is no other reading possible in the intentions of the authors of this paradigm of classification? Le Rève d’Alembert (1769, first published 1820) sanon2696444391s that for Diderot seeing the world no longer as God but as machine, and seeing Nature as a giant evolutionary organism that is never static but always experimenting, is not contradictory at all. Maybe the process of and will to classify is not the key to begin to dismantle neoliberal capitalism. But if not, then what? According to Jens Kastner: “However the transnational guerilla may be seen as a try to overcome the frequencies of fields between art and activism described by Bordieu. The respectively own logics of production of theory, art and also politic actions sanon2696444391 overlapping and entanglement. This is the basis where it is meant to prepare - anon2696444391ever not by identical closements or prefaced contextless communities. But as a transnational guerilla”. * - The intrinsic bridge between artistic and social movements offers possibilities to overcome the structural hurdles between these two. * - Universalism as imaginary (the re-connecting of universalism has a certain source in negation of the existing, which defines the artistic internationalism. This is followed by transnational guerilla, as criticism and as an alternative model to the universal community. * - Zapatista self-management and tactics (“Intergalactic meetings against neoliberalism and pro humanism/the human race”, where a few thousands guerill@anon the chiapanestic jungle (1996) and also in Spain (1997) met, can be seen without hesitation as the birth hour of the globalization-critical movements. It can also be understood as the starting point of the Transnational Guerilla. * - Global mobilisation (in a normative regard transnational guerilla means to step across national borders and at the time it is also a moment of movement beyond traditional or geographic bonds. This is exactly what the TG is trying to archieve: to ![page43image2977713424|19.560000x9.000000](blob:https://anon1577251828.eu/76dc95c4-8d22-4355-b035-84404f72be9d) create a transnational mode of movement out of the artistic internationalism of the 1960’s. * - Multiplicity (For this collective and de-discriminating action a decisive hint is necessary, [which can also be described as] the temporary mark, the come across, the masks of the Zapatistas, the exposing of one’s mode of existence. * - Parallel action (to speak about TG arises the assumption to be part of a minority: not to assign oneself to a suppressed group for reasons of misinterpreted political correctness, but to conclude oneself, to understand oneself as part of a just temporarily secret broad community. * - Pragmatic activism (TG is not a so far un-perfect or an up to now uncomplete community, neither an historical horizon to be fulfilled. It leaves basic illusions behind re-supplied by Agamben, Baumann and Holloway, is coming from zapatistic riots (we are you behind our masks) and is learning from its’ own artistically practices. But it has to be understood as a gutsy, temporary rout not limited to national borders.All these qualities have been coined and developed from a different mindset and frame of thought, culminating in Bricolabs, the collaborative narrative of individuals that investigate, exploit and prototype the loop of open source software, content, spectrum and hardware. Unlike Jens Kastner our trajectory to these qualities as a possible reality for ‘uncapitalism’ on a global level did not unravel itself through an investigation of the common denominators in the oppositional positions that have all claimed in some way or another the predominance of becoming/das Tun/anti-classification. Our trajectory to these qualities comes from the realisation that old and new technologies such as RFID, biometric identification schemes (gait recognition, intelligent tracking video cameras and on chip DNA testing), active sensor schemes in logistics, clothing, home - are in the process of creating a real world in which connectivities expand beyond our conscious schemes and protocols of interaction. https://www.networkcultures.org/_uploads/notebook2_theinternetofthings.pdf" 12,54280,2019-05-31T04:25:56.162Z,10031,2,17,16,1,0,0,18.4,54229,anon2945747231,anon3554654177,"Oh wow, this is really extensive, thanks so much @anon3554654177! I need to wrap my head around this a anon2488317424 bit more - but the overall idea is: we can't ""stop"" it, but it has to be done on our terms (super simplified of course). The one thing I wonder then, is what about authoritarian regimes? The technology will be anywhere, and as mentioned above in the piece on Uyghurs, the surveillance tech used is devastating (some even call it a genocide)." 14,54285,2019-05-31T06:37:54.635Z,10031,2,17,16,1,0,0,33.4,54280,anon3778288340,anon2945747231,"I'm interested too in the vein of ""we can't stop it so anon2696444391 do we steer it"" and I wonder what the options are to address the issues. Some ideas for consideration: 1. Create standards and influence design of smart cities to protect/enhance humanity (very hard) 2. Educate people about these technologies and anon2696444391 to interact with them or possibly avoid them 3. Sabotage the technologies eg blocking the sensors (dangerous, expensive) 4. Explore the benefits of living in cities and look for ways to introduce these benefits to local more distributed communities so that living in cities isn't the only perceived option Personally I like the idea of (4) as it's a move away from centralisation, I think we need to decentralise physically as well as digitally. But realistically it feels to me that education and campaigning are feasible initial steps and that might lead towards (1) where standards, policies and controls have been design specifically for humanity. You are right, technologies often get abused - Facebook is a great example. I wonder what standards and controls would be considered at the conception of Facebook if they knew what they know now." 15,54286,2019-05-31T07:25:57.258Z,10031,1,18,17,2,0,0,33.6,54280,anon3554654177,anon2945747231,"Dear Inge, Yes, that is extremely simplified but true. And to get to this level of simplicity took me and a lot of networks twenty years of fighting against the grain, and being misunderstood, as if we would be on the side of the Matrix, where in fact to us the potential for emancipation and a better balance between centralization and decentralization was on par with seeing animals, humans, machines and the planet itself as a caring and sustaining ecosystem. #IoT means transparency and exposing overhead and corruption. The balance I seek, was very well described by Malatezsta and Machno and can also be described as anarchocommunism (open on the services, closed on a public commons infrastructure). The current NGI 3step plan is exactly that. My interest lies in building a stable political zone of human machine complimentarity, supporting humans in what they do best: ultimately Nietzsche's love and shame and for #IoT full resource management as our only chance against Climate Change. This may be hard to grasp for people who are different than me, and most are. Most people have specific self interest. Mine is simply to be continue living in a stable society. That requires new political models and new political leadership. One of the first public mentions to my plan to turn the passport into a device is 2011: https://robvankranenburgs.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/a-proactive-vision-on-a-full-internet-of-things-where-the-lights-are-on-all-is-transaction-and-engineered-narrativity/ Ofcourse if I had a butanon2863106368 I would stop all of this technology now, I would push it. But for now this text http://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-0504/msg00026.html I still think it is valid. That means the logical trajectory now if we do not act is 500 smart cities aka military zones and Mad Max in between. I do not want to live in neither. So, Inge, you see, that without taking control the drivers of the digital transitions our societies can not survive. I live in a simple street. I would like to keep living three and be abler to take a train and have a coffee in a bar. That is all. Again, hard to understand if you are of a different sensibility that I have no other interest in this then general interest. The selfish aspect lies in the fact that this stable society enables me to work and live as I want, quiet and simple. My friends and my networks are willing to take up that position, to build leadership in a fully connected world. I hope anon1577251828 do too. Otherwise it is very easy from our own cosy and sheltered positions ( me too!) to say anon2696444391 bad it all is, and anon2696444391 afraid we are of the Matrix. That's too simple for us. Now to your specific question. I see a pattern there, interesting. To me, all current systems are dysfunctional. Hence we need to build better ones. That is my sole objective. The world is full of terrible political features. If you are not careful you can get depressed by simply looking at one. What can you do? In Georgia the most repressing and backward laws are voted on abortion. Why not stage protest there? Extremely necessary! The USA is one of the few countries where inmates pay for their own imprisonment and Medieval Diseases Are Infecting California’s Homeless https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/03/typhus-tuberculosis-medieval-diseases-spreading-homeless/584380/ My good friend Pieter is currently on the Maker Faire in SF with his invention for a tent for the Homeless: https://makerfaire.com/maker/entry/70286/ Oh, there are some many things to not sleep over. Israel effectively has Gaza under virtual control and actually wage war by extra legal killings. Europe itself is strongly reproached: https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/01/21/no-escape-hell/eu-policies-contribute-abuse-migrants-libya https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/05/libya-shameful-eu-policies-fuel-surge-in-detention-of-migrants-and-refugees/ Yes, people worry, and so can I. But, we are in the Strategy CSA of the Next Generation Internet at the moment and from us new architectures and new ways of seeing are expected that work back from a position of full connectivity to building the best and most inclusive zone of care for ALL (human beings, animals, machines, plants and the planet). Ours if not to bite one bullet, focus on one situation existing now and extrapolating from that or excluding building blocks. In the previous eetings we realized that without a system perspective actively taking control of all these building-blocks a commercial social credit system is already forming as we speak combined of commercial services embedding dynamic pricing on commercial algos , the mapping behavior sets that are downloadable in JSON format from coelition.org embedded soon if not already in voice and camera supported services in home, shop and hospitals. The Matrix is already here, everywhere. Our job is to find the pressure points of agency and make it work for all of us, meaning we find a way (and wade are finding it) to not have a subset of people and machines looking at all the data but open it up in such a way that e v e r y o n e is able to see all the data realtime, thus brokering new notions of mediation, and conflict management and that is where all skills and expertise can found in anarchist literature, Greetings, Rob" 16,54287,2019-05-31T07:34:12.844Z,10031,0,13,12,1,0,0,37.6,54285,anon3554654177,anon3778288340,"These four points are great! And I think I can assist with starting points for all, let me work on it a bit and I get back to you on this next week, Rob." 17,54290,2019-05-31T07:55:53.999Z,10031,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,54285,anon3554654177,anon3778288340,"Hi Tom, are you in London next Wednesday? Want to join us at UCL? Check https://www.theinternetofthings.eu/open-invitation-anon2696444391-can-we-bring-realistic-positive-story-accepts-techno-political-influence-and and drop me a mail at rob at dyne.org" 18,54296,2019-05-31T09:48:56.838Z,10031,2,15,14,1,1,0,33.0,54290,anon3778288340,anon3554654177,"Hey Rob, thanks for the invite. I won't be in London sadly. Your debate is an interesting one and certainly starts to address the trend in innovation that is attractive to our governments and large corporate organisations, the risks such as the one Inge points out have catastrophic implications. From your link ""We are experiencing the last potential zone of transition with humans in full control and planning agency."" - I'm under the impression that's it's more the capitalist machinery now that's in full control and removing the human element from that is inevitable. I think I've tried to influence from within which is what I think you are working with too and for me I've been repeatedly crushed. I wonder if there is another way? I've mentioned in [another post](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/humanity-has-two-existential-threats-our-disregard-for-the-environment-and-our-disregard-for-eath-other/10041) what I feel are the real issues we face and I'm not sure anon2696444391 these innovations solve them. [quote=""anon3554654177, post:15, topic:10031""] Ofcourse if I had a butanon2863106368 I would stop all of this technology now, I would push it. [/quote] This is more for what I stand for. But it's not realistic at the moment, the only time we will stop at scale is when there is incentive (through force | desire) to do so. If we wait for top-down direction based on the “their” opinion of “when we have to do it” it will be far too late and any solution thereafter is likely to be the wrong one driven by the wrong values, and fear. But maybe we can tap into the desire to do so, bottom-up. The Armish for example live simple lives and in contrast to popluar belief with technology. They ride in horse and carriage because all of them can do so equally, they use electricity because it is a utility accessible to all of them, they do not have tractors because their neighbour could buy a bigger tractor and competition would enter their community. Each new technology available to them is considered and either integrated or rejected. Their value systems are different to the majority of the western world and they know anon2696444391 to ""stop"" or rather not even start. I believe we need to have something similar, a set of values and standards to refer to when considering if we _need_ 5G and smart sensors, etc, the real impact on humanity and if we need them the controls and constraints around them for their purpose. Though I have be mistaken for a Luddite I really am not, I simply call for a more cognitive decision making process based on human-centric needs when considering whether we ""should"" rather than whether we ""could"". [quote=""anon3554654177, post:15, topic:10031""] My interest lies in building a stable political zone of human machine complimentarity, supporting humans in what they do best: ultimately Nietzsche’s love and shame and for #IoT full resource management as our only chance against Climate Change. [/quote] I appreciate the mention of Nietzsche. I fully back a need to manage resources more carefully. A project I set up a few years ago which I need to restart aims at[inspiring the next generation of ecologically aware creative technologists](http://www.adventurelabs.co.uk/2017/11/27/a-mission-working-towards-2050/) to do just that in ways we haven't yet thought of. It feels like we are concerned and challenging the same issues from slightly different standpoints. I'm currently trying to avoid London atm, I'm living out in the hills of the Peak District as part of my effort to decentralise and also focus on the natural environment around me. I'd would like to meet up (remotely or in person, maybe in Georgia if we could fund the travel) at some stage to consider our current positions and anon2696444391 they might compliment each other in a simplified and unified approach. Maybe @anon2945747231 would be interested in that conversation too and maybe it is something to consider for the festival. I think one of our tasks would be to simplify the heuristics and collaborate on an accessible concept derived from our collective concerns, understandings and approaches - though it may also turn out that we have a need to continue our different approaches. Would there be interest in this from others?" 19,54306,2019-05-31T11:17:02.109Z,10031,1,16,15,1,0,0,43.2,54296,anon3554654177,anon3778288340,"""I think I’ve tried to influence from within which is what I think you are working with too and for me I’ve been repeatedly crushed. I wonder if there is another way?"" You were clearly (way) too early. I think it is more about timing. Now is the time for these arguments. I am studying the Amish too, for example, this kind of thinking runs parallel. If you read http://www.situatedtechnologies.net/?q=node/108 and just check out the last page you see we were/are on a similar track. We just keep on keeping on making the arguments until the threshold of seeing this as more normal is reached. This is happening, so now is a time to push again. It feels like we are concerned and challenging the same issues from slightly different standpoints. Totally! Very happy to have this conversation. Looking to forward to keep this conversation going, Greetings, Rob" 21,54310,2019-05-31T12:03:23.946Z,10031,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,54306,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"Let me do that for you Last page: To finish and to instigate a discussion, we propose a series of indicative standards that test the waters, raise awareness and make visible the gap between where we are now and where have to go. The triple challenges of climate change, peak oil and social breakdown are coming. The question is not if, but when. Our standards are a shock therapy to the current practice of making. The sociability standards are workable and stem directly from the urgen- cies we have discussed. They will ensure interoperability between all the emerging actors. They require the joining of different actors that so far have not been involved in the making of standards. All technological standards are also social standards. Proximity • Systems that are designed by at least twenty people distributed across the world. • Systems that are built less than 150 miles from where the raw materials are sourced. • Systems that will not be deployed more than 50 miles from where they are built. • Systems whose components are modular and backward compatible to allow local repair, upgrade and downgrade. system Thinking • Systems that fix end costs as a percentage on top of publicly available production, transportation and disposal costs. • Systems that communicate the break down of energy costs of pro- duction, transport and breakdown of the product. • Systems that automatically generate a fixed, public discussion u r lfor each item. Affect • Systems that encourage face-to-face contact.• Systems that build mutual responsibility. • Systems that encourage conflict. • Systems that during their lifetime will be used by more than 5 people.• Systems that enable strong bonds between people and the environment.• Systems that treat resources as equals." 22,54311,2019-05-31T12:08:24.402Z,10031,0,18,17,2,0,0,88.6,54296,anon2945747231,anon3778288340,"you're very welcome in Tbilisi, Georgia (or countryside, I myself as well have moved out of the city to be more in nature) - and I'd gladly help organize something like that! And also with regards to the festival, count me in with thinking about it more and designing something. Likewise, interested to hear what others think of smart cities, IoT, and the impact on our private and collective lives - and anon2696444391/what to propose." 23,54369,2019-06-02T07:18:57.429Z,10031,1,17,16,1,0,0,73.4,54310,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"Dear Tom, On you four points that you propose “Create standards and influence design of smart cities to protect/enhance humanity (very hard)’ In projects like Tagitsmart we have worked towards standardization of smart tags and product passports so as to have a chance to go to full recycling and circular economy In retail. A very small steps but small steps is what it is. Projects like Sociotal.eu, D-CENT, DECODE, Commonfare http://pieproject.eu is to demonstrate that all technological standards are social standards, so what was thought up theoretically a decade ago now becomes practice. Again, not fully ortganised, this is the flow of things. In Barcelona, Amsterdam and NY these notions of data privacy and commons are put into action. Amsterdam is in our current CSA. WE will make a Digital Signature for a 5G Architecture real. We propose grey zones (current 3G/4G) hot spots (dedicated 5G zones) and cold spots. Some people in anon1577251828 seem to me more about disconnecting, then connecting which surprises me but is actually anon2373157426 good as it forces us to have this discussion deep and in the open. Nice! I am preparing salons on hot spots but also on cold spots (one with Brussel based https://ps.lesoiseaux.io As I think all three type of zones are our responsibility as architects of hybridity. You and others are very welcome to join that cold spot (no 'connectivity/wireless') workshop. In the 5G workshops in my Task Force Infrastructures we address exactly this issue. You are very welcome to join. I can also send you the notes: ""How can we ensure not making the same mistakes as with the (failed) smart city (applications), but co-create services in the vertical applications (body/health, home/energy, car/sharing, region/collective intelligence) with all stakeholders including citizens? In this workshop we want to investigate the procedure of embedding these ideas and requirements in a Digital Signature for the Infrastructure. This has the important bonus it no longer matters who hosts the data and which platforms it runs, as the liability, accountability, procurement, GDPR and Cybersecurity Act compliance is in situational contracts (term Christian Nold), thus ensuring the new insights (fostering new services) stay well known to all stakeholders. In earlier workshops of NGI Forward WP3 the realization was made that in these 5G environments all entities (whether persons, goods, objects or situations) will be given federated and temporary identities, as in the case of an accident with the connected car in which all ‘stakeholders’ (the car, the person, the lantern pole that is hit, the water that the crashes into that is polluted…) receive temporary identities the ensemble of which becomes the ‘virtual accident’ the liability and accountability is administered on. Currently eIDas is the digital signature for persons, GS1 is providing product codes (‘passports’) for goods and coelition.org is mapping and numbering everyday activities. In these environments AI will run in the network and robotic capabilities are built in to function semi-auanon2863106368omously, the agency to name the combinations of the temporary and federated (attribute-based) identities will be vital to creating new services. Currently this agency is in the hands of GAFA and BAT. In the case of architectures the first Salon put forward four building blocks. The first is that in an Internet of Humans, or Next Generation Internet, trust can be tokenized but only within a situation of already established trust between people, meaning there has to be a social understanding before it can be technically articulated, can we talk about communities and everyday life. The second is successful anticipatory regulation: “joint-up multidisciplinary regulation through collaboration platforms on AI that include startups, think-tanks and academia, large and medium-sized companies, governments and their ethics commissions, civil society and activists.”The third is to explore building institution like entities with the concepts of data utilities and the work of Neil Lawrence and Sylvie Delacroix who propose data trusts as a bottom-up mechanism whereby data-subjects choose to pool their data within the legal framework of the Trust. The fourth is to include potential third-party trust providers are seemingly neutral organizations that have a large member base organized around for example mobility (in the Netherlands the ANWB has a membership of 4.446.528 (1-1-2017). In January 2018, for example, the various accounts of FC Barcelona surpassed 180 million engagements worldwide. One could also consider alumni groups of different schools."" ""Educate people about these technologies and anon2696444391 to interact with them or possibly avoid them"" Avoid them? You seriously think that is an option? Where on the planet would you go? I think that is not an option at all. Our job, at least in the CSA NGI for which I am making the case here that is paid with public money of European taxpayers), it is not an option at all to have as a strategic assessment to the European Commission that we should learn Millennials and Igens and older people who can no longer use analogue means for a lot of administrative purposes, to avoid IoT, Big Data, AI, biotech, smart phones, to avoid new technologies. What is the advise? Dress up in aluminium foil? Of course anon1577251828 is bigger then this project and if the aim of anon1577251828 is to explore these options (that I also described but discarded as the Unabombers fiction of ‘going back to nature’ in 2007, I was discarding that as a strategic option for society as a whole and people taking responsibility as leaders for the whole of society. It is of course perfectly possible as an individual option, but then it is a personal choice with a very limited strategic or educational aspect. ""We have seen the end of the guerilla, as being on the move now is not different anymore than staying in one place and securing it. At the outer ends of this kind of opposition we find the ultimate innere Emigration (inner emigration), the suicide of Menno ter Braak, four days after the Germans invaded the Netherlands, and Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber. Menno ter Braak took sedatives and his brother gave him a lethal injection. Drenched in the Nietzschean philosophy of auanon2863106368omy and ever striving to be a homme honnête, he could – being involved in anti-fascist activities from mid-thirties – see the fascist logic of life very clearly and could not envision any way out. The Innere Emigration of intellectuals in the thirties, retreating into ones own mental sphere, not publishing, not speaking in public, was not only unbearable to him, he realized that it had become ontologically impossible. The Unabomber’s strategy – killing three and maiming a further 23 – in trying to get his message across to both a research community and a larger public, has caused a lot of human suffering, landed him in jail and may a have had adverse effects in that the search for him converged new techniques of surveillance. In the end it was his brother that recognised his style. As a core issue in his thinking is his distinction between small-scale technology is technology “that can be used by small-scale communities without outside assistance” and organization-dependent technology is technology that depends on large-scale social organization”. https://www.networkcultures.org/_uploads/notebook2_theinternetofthings.pdf P47"" My take on education? I took that challenge in 2010 when I set up April 9 #IoT Day. In ten years over 500 self organized events IoTDay is an open invitation to the Internet of Things Community to set up an event, a lunch, a talk with the neigborhood on what #IoT is and what it means in everyday life for all of us Have taken place https://www.iotday.org I also run, the local #IOT Meetup in Gent, where I live, so I take my responsibility not only on a global scale but locally as well, what else would be the point we are not here for ego or fame - so in over 30 meetups were done over the years. I could do more and having realized that I am now talking with IMEC in Gent to have more structure. https://www.meetup.com/Internet-of-Things-Ghent/ ""Sabotage the technologies eg blocking the sensors (dangerous, expensive)"" And ridiculous and fully ineffective. Adding more negativity to the already ongoing negativity is pointless and counterproductive. Any action should be communicative, non violent, non negative and fully from the perspective of dialogue. In France over 60% of all traffic cameras have been destroyed. What is the point of that? Do you really think Google is the enemy, the smart phone is the 'evil'? Would you rather have lived before the internet? When, in 1500, prior to book printing with priests the only ones reading and you being burned for asking can I read a book? Of course it is very sad that the first iterations of the anarchist hippie protocol was taking over by old fashioned greed (Mark Zuckerberg call his first four users dumb fucks) niche intelligence seeing Over The Top openings (intelligence without a heart):Amazon, Uber... and national states like China, Singapore, Malaysia and now quickly Africa, and also US and Europe as all dependencies in, the national states see these surveillance options as a way to sustain their power ( the state - church, Moneyland, military wedding). But and here we differ, you someanon2696444391 seem to think 'it is over', this is the next normal, to me it is just a phase, and there is no doubt in my mind that the aligned sensibilities in favor of sharing, of cooperation, of common sense are winning. ""Explore the benefits of living in cities and look for ways to introduce these benefits to local more distributed communities so that living in cities isn’t the only perceived option"" Absolutely! Do you have links, texts, projects, pointers? Love to hear about them! Greetings and wishing you a very good Sunday, Rob" 24,54661,2019-06-06T16:08:23.703Z,10031,2,13,12,1,0,0,32.6,54369,anon3203746736,anon3554654177, I agree that there will be no turning back from these technologies. I like the concept of the cold zone you articulated in another topic. I think such spaces designated like that would be very useful and anon2373157426 civilized really. Advancement of These technologies is inevitable. It won’t be stopped. As you say individuals can turn away. To me as a society I would like to see us figure out anon2696444391 to consciously advance it. And I think the work you were doing is very much in that spirit and in the right direction. 25,54662,2019-06-06T16:09:18.216Z,10031,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,54661,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,And I don’t think Google is the enemy but I do think that once they went public as a corporation they shifted their focus in ways that I don’t prefer. And I use their services and I am writing this on a smart phone. 26,54668,2019-06-06T18:33:23.776Z,10031,1,14,13,1,0,0,27.8,54661,anon3554654177,anon3203746736,"I am very happy to hear that and I think yes we can explore what a cold zone looks like and what a set up be in cities of cold zones and hot spots is exactly what we can do in NGI. Also ""To me as a society I would like to see us figure out anon2696444391 to consciously advance it."" I fully agree with that, that is also what NGI is there for. It can not be just tech push or shareholder value, it has got to mean something. I am always convinced that if a hack is needed it is at system level, building a next normal, building attractors for different drivers, and that is what I see happening." 27,54670,2019-06-06T19:18:23.937Z,10031,1,14,13,2,0,0,47.8,54668,anon3203746736,anon3554654177,I would like for those cold zones to be of some decent size. Not like the smokers pen in the airport. 28,54671,2019-06-06T19:46:53.584Z,10031,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,54670,anon3554654177,anon3203746736,+1. 29,69493,2020-01-28T11:41:04.404Z,10031,0,9,8,1,0,0,66.8,54203,anon3708943593,anon2945747231,"This interview with Ben Green (and the book he wrote on which it is based) might be relevant to folks here: https://www.opendatasoft.com/blog/interview-with-ben-green-from-smart-cities-to-smart-enough-cities A short blurb from the interview that reflects his general thinking: *""I think that the smart city, as we conceive of it today, lacks a holistic perspective. The common understanding of what it means to become a smart city today does not necessarily include a holistic approach to solve a certain issue. In my book, I describe smart cities as seeing most problems exclusively through “tech goggles”, meaning that there is a tendency of seeing every single social challenge only in terms of technology. Issues are diagnosed as being technological in nature and the solutions to these issues are also seen as exclusively technological.""*" 1,61849,2019-10-21T15:12:23.584Z,11208,0,6,5,6,0,0,46.2,61849,anon3086952555,anon3086952555,"Around many of the threads on this platform where we touched on anything related to ""smart cities"", there's a couple of questions along the lines of ""anon2696444391 bad is it, really"". Below there's an example I just stumbled over, which to me seems to be reasonably representative for what the current state of affairs is. However, before diving in, here's a thing I'd be really interested in: **If you know first hand (or really, really credibly second hand) of the way that decisions around smart cities have been made or are being made in municipalities around the world, could you share the examples? Feel free to leave out any names that might implicate anyone or cause them trouble; this is just meant to collect more examples.** So here goes: [A few months old](https://www.waz.de/staedte/duisburg/chinesischer-it-riese-huawei-ist-fuer-duisburg-ein-risiko-id221223665.html) (and in German), but two points of view that I'll just offer side by side as they pretty much sum up the state of play in smart cities these days. For context, this is about a smart city partnership in which Huawei implement their technologies in Duisburg, a mid-sized German city with a population of about 0.5 million. The (apparently non-binding) partnership agreement includes Smart Government (administration), Smart Port Logistics, Smart Education (education & schools), Smart Infrastructure, 5G and broadband, Smart Home, and the urban internet of things. Note: The quotes and paraphrases are roughly translated from the original German article. Jan Weidenfeld from the Marcator Institute for China Studies: > ""As a city administration, I'd be extremely cautious here."" China has a fundamentally different societal system, and a legal framework that means that every Chinese company, including Huawei, is required to open data streams to the communist party. (...) > > > > Weidenfeld points out that 5 years ago, when deliberations about the project began, China was a different country than it is today. At both federal and state levels, the thinking about China has evolved. (...) > > > > ""Huawei Smart City is a large-scale societal surveillance system, out of which Duisburg buys the parts that are legally fitting - but this context mustn't be left out when assessing the risks."" Anja Kopka, media spokesperson for the city of Duisburg: > The city of Duisburg doesn't see ""conclusive evidence"" regarding these security concerns.The data center meets all security requirements for Germany, and is certified as such. ""Also, as a municipal administration we don't have the capacity to reliably assess claims of this nature."" Should federal authorities whose competencies include assessing such issues provide clear action guidelines for dealing with Chinese partners in IT, then Duisburg will adapt accordingly. The translation is a bit rough around the edges, but I think you'll get the idea: We have experts warning, but the warnings are of such a structural nature that they're kinda of to big and obvious to prove. *Predators will kill other animals to eat.* 🤷‍♂️ By the time abuse or any real issue can be proven, it'd be inherently to late to do anything about it. We have a small-ish city administration that knows perfectly well that they don't have the capacity to do their due diligence, so they just take their partners' word for it. The third party here, of course, being a global enterprise with an operating base in a country that has a unique political and legal system that in many ways isn't compatible with any notion of human rights, let alone data rights, that otherwise would be required in the European Union. And it's along these two axes — imbalance of size and incompatibility of culture — that I think we see the most interesting, and most potentially devastating conflicts: * A giant corporation runs circles around a small-to-mid sized city. I think it's fair to assume that only because of Chinese business etiquette was the CFO of one of Huawei's business units even [flown out to Duisburg to sign](https://cities-today.com/duisburg-signs-smart-city-partnership-with-huawei/) the initial memorandum of understanding with Duisburg's mayor Sören Link. The size and power differential is so ridiculous that it might just as well have been the *Head of Sales EMEA* or some other mid-level manager that took that meeting. After all, for Chinese standards, a city of a population of a half-million wouldn't even considered a [third tier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_city_tier_system) city. Talk about an uneven playing field. * The vast differences of (for lack of a better word, and broadly interpreted) *culture* in the sense of business realities and legal framework and strategic thinking between a large corporation with global ambitions and backed by a highly centralized authoritarian state on one side, and the day-to-day of a German town are overwhelming. So much so, that I don't think that the mayor of Duisburg and his team are even aware of all the implicit assumptions and biases they bring to the table. And it's not an easy choice at some level: Someone comes in and offers much needed resources that you need and don't have any chance to get, desperation might force you to make some sub-prime decisions. But this comes at a price — the question is just *anon2696444391 bad* that price will be over the long term. I'm not convinced that any smart city of this traditional approach is worth implementing, or even *might be worth* implementing; probably not. But of all the players, the one backed by a non-democratic regime with a track record of mass surveillance and human rights violations is surely at the bottom of the list." 2,62677,2019-10-31T15:58:31.807Z,11208,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,61849,anon1753543892,anon3086952555,"Thank you for the post @anon3086952555. For those interested in hearing more from Peter about smart cities, he is giving a talk during the Edgeryders Festival in Berlin: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/towards-carbon-neutral-smart-cities-call-for-feedback-on-proposed-festival-session/11041" 3,69161,2020-01-22T01:58:09.520Z,11208,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,61849,anon3203746736,anon3086952555,"This Guardian column by Cory Doctorow gets to the heart of the matter with smart cities: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2020/jan/17/the-case-for-cities-where-youre-the-sensor-not-the-thing-being-sensed "" If we decide to treat people as sensors, and not as things to be sensed – if we observe Kant’s injunction that humans should be “treated as an end in themselves and not as a means to something else” – then we can modify the smart city to gather information about the *things* and share that information with the *people* . ""Imagine a human-centered smart city that knows everything it can about things. It knows anon2696444391 many seats are free on every bus, it knows anon2696444391 busy every road is, it knows where there are short-hire bikes available and where there are potholes. It knows anon2696444391 much footfall every meter of pavement receives, and which public loos are busiest. What it doesn’t know is *anything about individuals in the city* . It knows about things, not people.""" 4,69443,2020-01-27T18:09:24.622Z,11208,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,61849,anon3203746736,anon3086952555,"London begins facial recognition tech. They say the idea is the tech suggests and the officer decides.. http://news.met.police.uk/news/met-begins-operational-use-of-live-facial-recognition-lfr-technology-392451?utm_source=Benedict%27s+Newsletter&utm_campaign=a27a1d5dca-Benedict%27s+Newsletter+320&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4999ca107f-a27a1d5dca-70493557&mc_cid=a27a1d5dca&mc_eid=dd5d80e8b2" 1,69128,2020-01-21T17:33:52.840Z,12479,0,12,11,6,0,0,32.4,69128,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,In an NGI newsletter I see that several NGI-funded projects will present at this [event](https://www.ngi.eu/news/2020/01/08/ngi-supports-fosdem-2020-a-free-meeting-for-open-source-developers/). 2,69129,2020-01-21T17:34:00.093Z,12479,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,69128,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"""FOSDEM is one of the top developer events on the planet, gathering 8,000+ open source community members. Although NGI-funded projects have only been operational for just one year, several NGI-funded projects have been selected to talk at this [FOSDEM 2020](https://fosdem.org/2020/) edition. NGI is driving activities at the community-organized event and the objectives of FOSDEM are closely aligned with the NGI Initiative. Open source communities address most parts of the Internet stack with a philosophy that is fully aligned with the values supported by the Next Generation Internet: openness, respect of privacy, transparency, inclusion, cooperation and decentralisation. The weekend will be a ‘meeting of minds’ for developers to be informed about the latest advancements in the free and open source software and hardware world and to promote free and open software development and benefits.""" 3,69130,2020-01-21T17:35:25.245Z,12479,3,10,9,1,0,0,37.0,69128,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"An incredible number of events have been crammed into the weekend (for a full list of the events see [here](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/events/)). Of special interest are: the [NGI Zero lightning talk](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/ngi_zero/) A treasure trove of awesome tech, with Michiel Leenaars, coordinator of NGI Zero, on Sunday at 16.00; NGI colleague Luis Busquets’ talk on European [software engineering](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/european_software_funded_research/) funded research, on Sunday at 16.20; and talks from NGI-funded projects as follows: **Saturday 1 February** [Next, the programmable web browser](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/next_web_browser/), anon2696444391 the architectural choices and the Lisp language make for an infinitely extensible web browser [What’s in my food? Open Food Facts, the Wikipedia of Food](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/open_food_facts/), mixing mobile crowdsourcing, ai, opensource and open data to improve food transparency, Saturday 12.40 [Decentralized collaborative applications](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/decentralized_collab_apps/__;!!DOxrgLBm!Tylz9UkITQCu-UPGrhstWwyPycX8t-1XMjM99EokbBqDcbzjNiVHJskEkel37d-4nZqbOZ-w$), peer-to-peer collaboration, search and discovery: Saturday, 14.00 [Encrypt your collaboration with CryptPad](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/cryptpad_collaboration/) – Real demo! Saturday, 14.40 [Verifpal](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/verifpal/), Cryptographic Protocol Analysis for Students and Engineers, Saturday 16.00 [Heads OEM device ownership/reownership](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/firmware_hodorateatria/): A tamper evident approach to remote integrity attestation, current status and future plan: a call for collaboration, Saturday 16.00 [RedWax – trust only yourself](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/redwax_trust_only_yourself/), Easy Industry best practice authentication and security – federated or just for you, Saturday 16.40 [Vita: high-speed traffic encryption on x86_64 with Snabb](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/vita_high_speed_traffic_encryption_on_x86_64/__;!!DOxrgLBm!Tylz9UkITQCu-UPGrhstWwyPycX8t-1XMjM99EokbBqDcbzjNiVHJskEkel37d-4nWfbYnnP$), coming to your cloud with XDP, AVF and Kubernetes integration, Saturday 17.40 [Heads OEM device ownership/reownership](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/firmware_hodorateatria/__;!!DOxrgLBm!Tylz9UkITQCu-UPGrhstWwyPycX8t-1XMjM99EokbBqDcbzjNiVHJskEkel37d-4nc0_lDrD$): A tamper evident approach to remove integrity attestation, current status and future plan: a call for collaboration, Saturday 16.00 [Go REUSE to license your code](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/reuse_code_licensing/), Free Software licensing made simple for everyone, Saturday 18.00 **Sunday 2 February** [Librecast: Privacy and Decentralization with Multicast](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/dip_librecast/__;!!DOxrgLBm!Tylz9UkITQCu-UPGrhstWwyPycX8t-1XMjM99EokbBqDcbzjNiVHJskEkel37d-4na7NJMiy$), IPv6 Multicast and the Next Generation Internet, Sunday 09.40 [SCION – future Internet that you can use today](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/dip_scion/__;!!DOxrgLBm!Tylz9UkITQCu-UPGrhstWwyPycX8t-1XMjM99EokbBqDcbzjNiVHJskEkel37d-4nRk2OcUz$), a clean-slate Internet architecture, Sunday 09.50 [Universal package & service discovery with Guix](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/gnuguixpackagemanager/__;!!DOxrgLBm!Tylz9UkITQCu-UPGrhstWwyPycX8t-1XMjM99EokbBqDcbzjNiVHJskEkel37d-4nR4s1z2m$), A universal functional package manager and operating system which respects the freedom of computer users, Sunday 11.30 [GNU Mes](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/gnumes/__;!!DOxrgLBm!Tylz9UkITQCu-UPGrhstWwyPycX8t-1XMjM99EokbBqDcbzjNiVHJskEkel37d-4nZbS_D9S$), scheme-only bootstrap and beyond, Sunday 11.50 [IoT Updates with IPv6 Multicast](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/iotmulticast/__;!!DOxrgLBm!Tylz9UkITQCu-UPGrhstWwyPycX8t-1XMjM99EokbBqDcbzjNiVHJskEkel37d-4nTUZtTOL$), Updating a Billion Nodes from one tiny server, Sunday 12.10 [anon1443855569-to-peer collaboration, search & discovery](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/dip_p2pcollab/), decentralized collaborative application development, Sunday, 12.30 [FOSDEM Video Box](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/videobox/__;!!DOxrgLBm!Tylz9UkITQCu-UPGrhstWwyPycX8t-1XMjM99EokbBqDcbzjNiVHJskEkel37d-4nRrEPyCk$), A bespoke HDMI capture device for conferences, Sunday 14.00 [Extending the lifetime of smartphones with Replicant](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/replicant/__;!!DOxrgLBm!Tylz9UkITQCu-UPGrhstWwyPycX8t-1XMjM99EokbBqDcbzjNiVHJskEkel37d-4nTs2Biul$), a fully free Android distribution, Sunday 16.00 [NGI Zero: A treasure trove of tech awesome](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/ngi_zero/), sampling through the Next Generation Internet Initiative, Sunday 16.00 [European Software Engineering Funded Research](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/european_software_funded_research/), what has happened under Horizon 2020 and what we already know now about the future, Sunday 16.20 There’s also an [NGI birds-of-a-feather meet-up](https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/bof_ngi_meetup/) on Sunday from 15.30 to 17.00. **See you there!** FOSDEM 2020 will be held at the ULB Campus du Solbosch, Brussels, Belgium. No registration is necessary, just sanon2696444391 up! For more information see: https://fosdem.org/2020/" 4,69137,2020-01-21T18:18:18.931Z,12479,2,9,8,1,0,0,16.8,69130,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,I could go. Any session that you would like me to report back ? 5,69139,2020-01-21T19:06:04.108Z,12479,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,69137,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"Might take a bit of study. Looking for which among those projects looks like it moves things along, maybe creating current rather than just going with the current.." 6,69143,2020-01-21T20:17:22.095Z,12479,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,69130,anon2868057530,anon3203746736,"@anon3203746736 there are a few “crabs” going to the conference — I'll make a small pitch regarding the “ngi birds of a feather meetup;” I suspect there are synergies (sorry…) between anon1577251828, ngi and scuttlebutt crabs. I'll catch any videos after the fact; I have to keep up my continuing education for my professional license; even without travelling these events, if shared online, are awesome to learn from." 7,69166,2020-01-22T05:57:25.653Z,12479,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,69143,anon3828707713,anon2868057530,If you will be in Brussels then @anon2868057530 we could hang out? 8,69167,2020-01-22T05:59:47.970Z,12479,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,69130,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,hmmm - @anon659222949 what was the setup you had at Internetdagarna? 9,69194,2020-01-22T11:19:58.174Z,12479,1,7,6,1,0,0,26.4,69166,anon2868057530,anon3828707713,@anon3828707713 — I'm stuck on this side of the pond until the snow melts :laughing: 10,69202,2020-01-22T16:36:52.904Z,12479,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,69137,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"Some of the encryption projects look interesting. Some of the sessions are speculative, looks like. I think what NGI really wants is for real products to get built that embed the human-centric principles into the core. So my interest would be actual products...and NGI-funded maybe to see if they put their money into worthwhile things." 11,69205,2020-01-22T17:10:08.132Z,12479,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,69202,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,Okidoki 12,69206,2020-01-22T17:11:46.923Z,12479,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,69194,anon3828707713,anon2868057530,what's snow got to do with it? 1,69132,2020-01-21T17:52:39.688Z,12481,0,5,4,5,0,0,26.0,69132,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"**The interactive event features discussions among the 23 finalists as well as an engaged audience, plus poster presentations of the different applications.** Twenty-three finalists selected out of the 178 applications received for the **[EIC Prize “Blockchains for Social Good”](https://ec.europa.eu/research/eic/index.cfm?pg=prizes_blockchains)** will present and discuss their ideas with other innovators. The event brings together Blockchain innovators, experts and curious minds from across the globe to explore anon2696444391 Blockchain can support social good in a variety of application areas such as: * traceability and fair trade * public transparency * decentralised platforms and circular economy * managing public records * financial inclusion * health * quality content * aid and philanthropy * energy" 2,69133,2020-01-21T17:53:55.751Z,12481,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,69132,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"In a five-minute pitch, each of the 23 finalists gets the opportunity to present their social good solutions, business model and interface. Finalists present their key concepts to an engaged audience which should gain a better understanding of the project as well as get excited about its application. The general public and external participants will have ample opportunity to comment and ask questions. When: February 10, 2020 all-day Where: Joint Research Centre | European Commission Rue du Champ de Mars 21 1050 Ixelles Belgium Cost: Free" 1,68767,2020-01-15T15:38:22.219Z,12408,1,15,14,11,0,0,108.0,68767,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Hello, dear community, This platform can be many things to many people. You can find [semi secret food events and places](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/salon-culinaire-clandestin-a-confidential-place-for-food-and-debate/12268), [Manual for distributed collaboration](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/distributed-collaboration-manual/11263), [discussions about smart city policies](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-we-put-humans-citizens-first-in-our-smart-city-policies/9878) and [AI](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/ai-inequalities-and-justice-an-overview-of-all-documented-discussions-before-during-and-after-the-workshop/12014), as well as [pressure cookers.](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/living-greener-as-therapy-anon2696444391-i-stumbled-upon-plasticless-trees-and-diy-protein/11396) [And a whole team of amazing ethnographers and coders reading and mapping all of it!](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/ngi-ethnography-preliminary-results-for-community-members/11325) We want to encourage you to use that to your advantage and use Edgeryders as a discussion platform for your project. Recently we tested this with the [collective intelligence incubator,](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/applying-for-the-h2020-collective-intelligence-call-looking-for-operational-partners-and-collaborators/11974) developing the proposal with full transparency. The Edgeryders team also helped with setting up and documenting regular calls for the proposal team and connecting them with people with experience in writing H2020 proposals. @anon3554387720 wants to continue the collective intellegence incubator project using this platform as the main discussion centre, including community members and experts and enthusiast from inside and outside. In discussing and planning that the issue of the platform structure and the whish for subtopic of subtopics came up. Our tagging system can be used to sort posts into topics and access them like folder structures, but having to explain that to new collaborators joining can be a necessary hurdle. Therefore we want to discuss here what you guys think the platform is already giving you to use for the development of your projects, and what you would need to use it more effectively as well as your ideas on anon2696444391 to solve those challenges. For example: @anon3197437925 and @anon659222949, do you have an idea of anon2696444391 to solve the subtopic problem fo the collective intelligence project? @anon3554387720, could specify your needs here so we can discuss them together?" 2,68793,2020-01-15T19:36:35.111Z,12408,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,68767,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,Unfortunately you can't have a sub-subtopic in Discourse. 3,68794,2020-01-15T21:05:24.579Z,12408,0,13,12,2,1,0,27.6,68767,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:1, topic:12408""]do you have an idea of anon2696444391 to solve the subtopic problem for the collective intelligence project?[/quote] Indeed Discourse does not have sub-topics, but it has plenty of other mechanisms to provide structure. Here's a proposal for using them appropriately in this case: We can provide a new, project-specific sub-category inside the [Workspaces](/c/workspaces) category. That usually is enough to keep all the topics of one project close enough together for people to find them (again) easily. Esp. since Discourse has a great search function that defaults to searching in the current category when using it on a category page. If that's not enough, then project mentors can support user navigation with a pinned topic that gives a kind of ""table of contents"" with links to other topics in the category. Or applying tags as proposed by @anon1753543892 – since it would not be demanded from topic authors, there's nothing much to explain." 1,67882,2019-12-22T17:00:09.331Z,12247,2,16,15,26,0,0,250.2,67882,anon490146484,anon490146484,"Hey all! I've been aware of Edgeryders for a while, but hadn't yet made an account over here. I didn't realize there was so much actual discussion going on. Some of you may know me from Scuttlebutt (SSB) circles. Among other things, I also write in my blog about tech and society. Perhaps the most relevant to this forum is ""[a plan to rescue the web from the internet](https://staltz.com/a-plan-to-rescue-the-web-from-the-internet.html)"". I also recommend this talk I gave this year: ""[the internet in 2030](https://mixitconf.org/2019/the-internet-in-2030)"" (hint: it's a lot about climate crisis). @anon2682865457 is who encouraged me to finally make this post. We recently sat down in Helsinki for a podcast/interview. Link and transcript below. Nice to meet you all and happy holidays! ## [Interview audio](https://soundcloud.com/anon490146484/zenna-interviews-anon490146484/s-YT8br) ## Transcript Zenna: *Welcome to the fourth episode of the Edgeryders podcast on the Human-Centric Internet. Today, we have Andre Staltz with us. Andre Staltz is a thinker, writer and a programmer. You're particularly well known for having done Cycle.js.* Andre: *Yeah, I'd say like maybe two years ago, that was like two or three years, that was the top thing. So I got invited to a lot of JavaScript conferences related to that Cycle.js. Nowadays, I'm doing more scuttlebutt things.* Zenna: *Especially nowadays: Manyverse.* Andre: *Yeah Manyverse is my main project, actually, they're kind of related so I used Cycle.js to build Manyverse.* Zenna: *We've had a few hours of conversation before this.* Andre: *Yeah, actually.* Zenna: *Which is awesome. Yeah. To start off in general, though, do you want to give your take on Scuttlebutt because I don't think I've interviewed anyone about it as part of this series.* Andre: *Yeah, um, my take on scuttlebutt. So scuttlebutt, I discovered it, like as a, as a process that I just suddenly, you know, I want to move on and build new stuff I wanted to like join some project that's like very promising or interesting and purposeful. And I looked at a lot of projects, and many of those were related to blockchain. And because I saw that, you know, the control that tech giants have over the current situation of the internet is anon2373157426, anon2373157426 strong and relevant. So it seems like a problem to solve and I saw, you know, looked a lot of blockchain projects and wasn't particularly convinced that they are, you know, there was that time when the IPOs were just like, everyone know, ICOs, I'm sorry, we're everywhere. And so this ICO for everything, and you kind of felt like, they just want the money here, you know, and not so there was some content as well anyway. And then I stumbled upon scuttlebutt, and I was like, this is interesting, but what like kept me in scuttlebutt and what fascinated me in scuttlebutt was that it, it worked in a very different way of things that I've seen before.* *So it it's a protocol for, let's say, a decentralized social network. And I've worked with social networks before, like, I had a startup that did a forum discussion platform. And, you know, startups usually fail, mine failed as well. But in in that one, I wanted to get right, the idea of moderation, like, you know, like, anon2696444391 can we have moderation without that being like a fixed dictator model, which is, like the model that exists in many forums. It's like, Well, here's the community. And here's the dictator. Like, obviously, that's going to run into a lot of problems for the community because there's a dictator and so I wanted to solve that problem. And I came up with like this fluid model of moderation. But what really fascinated me and scuttlebutt is that I was always looking for, ""Okay, what is the moderation model here like where's The where's the power? And anon2696444391 are people, you know, policing What's going on?"" And I just couldn't find it. And I was like, why is there no model and at the same time that I couldn't find it, it also felt like the nicest place that I've been on the internet so far. And I was like, How can this be? And it just fascinated me. And I was like, there's something going on here. And like, the more I got involved with it, the more interesting it became. And then there was also like, a really strong community. So I think like, the things that Scuttlebutt are doing is doing in the space of social networks is very interesting. I think it's bringing a new narrative to trust, for instance. So far, like people have trusted the platform or trusted the moderators. And now in scuttlebutt, it's kind of like, well, you have people in your life that you trust. Let's just use that. Like, we're not going to introduce any platform trust any sort of dictated moderator trust is just people you know and that's it. Yeah. So that's my take on Scuttlebutt and what really fascinated me and, and I decided like, okay, I want to help this and there wasn't like a mobile app. So I thought, okay, mobile is very big. So I think I can help in that sense. Yeah. So Manyverse is Scuttlebutt on mobile.* Zenna: *you mentioned it in passing there. There's a lot of conversations that happen on Scuttlebutt. And there's also a lot of like, ideas that float around. I'm thinking, number one, there's a lot of cool conversations happening on Scuttlebutt. But yeah, you write a lot of great longer posts. And if we take this back to a conversation we had previously on collective intelligence, we were talking about anon2696444391 to utilize it to map together our understanding. Do you want to bring back what you described to me?* Andre: *Yeah. I think there's all kinds of ideas like that, you know, anon2696444391 we could utilize scuttlebutt and not just like, Hey, here's a tool we can utilize it. But there's a lot of like concepts and ideology. I wouldn't say it's not yet ideology, it's more like ideas that can become ideology, sort of like in scuttlebutt, what matters are the people that you're connected to. And that's, that's what creates like substance and content. And it's it's also the infrastructure so like, the network topology in scuttlebutt is your network of friends. So network topology means it's kind of like a computer infrastructure concept, that let's say you have a bunch of computers, and anon2696444391 are those computers connected to each other? So in something like let's say Facebook, you have actually in Sweden, you have a data center for Facebook that has a bunch of computers there, and those computers are talking each other, like in that data center, they're also talking to a data center all around the other side of the planet in California, let's say to, you know, update the data. And that the way that those computers are connected to each other, has almost nothing to do with anon2696444391 the human relationships are connected to each other. So let's say I'm friends with with you and you're in Sweden, the way the the computers are going to negotiate that and anon2696444391 the computers are connected to each other has nothing to do with that is just add, they just, you know, it's social. Yeah, I mean, in the end, they do deliver the data for us and that kind of thing. But like, yeah, it doesn't work. And something like a discussion forum, you know, you have a server that is somewhere. And that's where all of the data is. And the network topology in that situation is everybody who's in the forum, has some laptop or some mobile phone and those computers are talking to that server. So it's like a kind of like a star situation where you have this server in the middle, and a bunch of you are connecting to that. And that's the network topology.* *So what Scuttlebutt is like is, if I'm friends with you, then my computer connects with your computer. And that's it. There's like no computer in the middle that we connect to. You see? So what that happens, what that does is that it sort of so the network topology in the other services are usually invisible. We don't see them, we don't see anon2696444391 are the computers talking to each other? It doesn't kind of we don't care about them, but in scuttlebutt, because the network topology is the social connections, suddenly, the network topology is visible, we know what it is, it's because it's the same as the social connections and we know what the social connections are. So I think these ideas are very promising, because suddenly, computer connections start becoming more like a day to day concept for us, because our computer You know, let's say my computer represents who I am on the internet, and it gets to connect with your computer. So it has a bit more like, there's more substance to these connections. I mean, these connections are not, they become more important, because because let's say if I stop being your friend, my computer's not connecting to your computer anymore, and then I might get less data. So it becomes more real. I mean, there's more substance to it. For instance, if I would like, let's say, block you on Twitter, and I wouldn't do that. But anyway, if I would block you on Twitter, you could make another account and follow me and you still get my data. Right, it didn't really matter that I blocked you. It didn't have any sort of like that blocking didn't have like a substance in the network topology, whereas was scuttlebutt and if I would block you, you would not have that connection to get my data anymore, and you would have to get it from other people. So what was the initial question about collective Intelligence?* Zenna: *Yeah, you just described it. And what you described is basically a system that replicates the human interaction.* Andre: *Yes, yes. Yeah.* Zenna: *Yeah. Which means from a network topology, you can see the direct connections also between the data and for collective intelligence. What could that mean?* Andre: *So I think the best example that we have, well, one of the best or most visible examples, we have a collective intelligence on the internet today is say Wikipedia. So a bunch of people get together and put their intelligence together and they make one single article about this thing. And when you use Wikipedia, you don't often see the authors you just see the outcome. You know, you see the, you know, this is what this intelligent thing wrote. And it's really like some intelligent thing, wrote it or some intelligent crowd wrote it, I think we can we can get better at doing that kind of thing, because there's a lot of obstacles in writing on Wikipedia.* *Yeah, like I submitted once scuttlebutt article for Wikipedia, and it took like weeks to be reviewed. And then when it was finally reviewed, they were like, this is not suitable for Wikipedia. And I was like, What is suitable then? Like it was so vague of an answer. So you kind of noticed that there are better ways anon2696444391 we can do this. And I think that this, let's say, to come together as a crowd and produce an intelligent an article such as something on Wikipedia. So I think we need something like Wikis on scuttlebutt. And what would that mean? So for instance, let's get something simple, like a cookie recipe. I could have my cookie recipe, and this is like the best that I've found so far. And then let's say I make friendship with someone like let's say you, and then I suddenly would have access to all the articles that you wrote. And maybe you have a recipe for cookies that's actually better than mine. So I can decide like Okay, I could possibly, let's say, click like ""accept your recipe"" and then I would update my recipe to be your recipe. But, except that you add like the say Cardamom on the cookie. And I don't like that. So I'm just going to remove that. So there could be like, new ways of adapting each other's intelligence and merging them in ways that don't require global consensus. So one of the aspects of scuttlebutt is that it doesn't require a global consensus.* *I'm maybe getting too much ahead of myself. But what I'm trying to get is to is that Wikipedia, it is about global consensus, essentially. And there's a lot of other things on the internet that our global consensus, For instance, blockchain is global consensus. There's like, The Blockchain is like gigabytes I think, or maybe terabyte I don't know anon2696444391 big it is right now. It's very big. And what it means is like it's the global ledger of all the Bitcoin transactions, and it's a global consensus system.* *Global consensus is a very difficult problem to solve I think. I think we're getting too much ahead of ourselves. I think we should try to solve like smaller cases of consensus. And that's kind of the space where Scuttlebutt operates in because you only need to think about, okay, what does this mean in my social space, like the people that I am interacting with? Maybe, you know, if you make a cookie recipe on Wikipedia, there will be all kinds of opinions from all kinds of experts and people, that it's actually a very difficult process to, you know, review all of those things. And there's a lot of friction, I think. So I think scuttlebutt helps us have a smaller barrier to participate in collective intelligence because the collective is not so huge as like global. It's basically like the people that you're in interaction with the people that you trust and it's very, very liquid for that sort of, like, flexible and liquid. Because let's say someone that was friends with like, had good cookie recipes and stuff and good let's say recipes to not just food but like let's say anon2696444391 to build stuff right. Like, like Let's say 3d printing stuff. If relationships change, I could later like not be connected to them, and I would sort of not receive their ideas anymore. So it's a bit more fluid in the sense that we don't need to fully agree. But we can, like choose who we want to agree with. And yeah, it's a bit more fluid. So I think it is important that we find ways of making that that collaboration faster. Because obviously, like if I submit an article to Wikipedia and takes weeks to review, that's, that's not good.* Zenna: *It's almost like it sounds to me almost like you're suggesting a way to form a collective brain.* Andre: *Yeah, or collective neurons. I mean, beginning somewhere small and Yeah, actually, the brain is a huge thing. So I think the brain is like the ultimate goal if we could create a collective brain. But yes, it's going towards that direction, basically, sort of like some people have some insights. Some other people have other insights. How can we get there? sites and put them together. What's very interesting about the brain is that there's no central part, like hierarchically distributed, that this is the ultimate neuron that tells those neurons anon2696444391 to interact with each other. It's like not a tree is definitely like, is actually So, so mixed up and constantly evolving that, like, we don't understand the brain, like people don't understand the brain yet. It's like literally like a huge mesh of chaos. And that's your brain.* Zenna: *Yeah, a great example of that, when people split the brain. And different parts of the body.* Andre: *Oh, yeah. Yeah, so I've been reading some books and like brain is not. So we have this idea that we are individual and that we have like a simple idea of who we are and things like that. But like the brain is so diverse, like it, like anon2696444391 it functions that the left side and the right side can take different decisions. So some scientists, I think psychological and the psychology field. They did some experiments that, you know, if you shut down, like, I think if you induce some waves and sort of anon2488317424 bit shut down the influence of one side of the brain, then it will take one decision. And if you shut the other side down, then the right side will choose yet another decision. I think it was something like on the question, they they put someone in the test chair, their visual field was controlled by one side of the brain, and it sanon2696444391ed them one image only on one eye. And then they asked what you want to be when you grow up? And they said one answer and then the other in the other case, they did the opposite. And the person answered, I want to be this thing when I grow up. So it's literally if you ask someone like who are you? The question depends on what part of the brain are you talking to? So yeah, the brain is a very complex thing. I don't even want to pretend I know about that.* Zenna: *I want to just throw in one comment because you talk about left hand side right side of the brain and Society of left and right.* Andre: *Oh, yeah, that's kind of interesting.* Zenna: *And if you cut off communications between them you get two different worlds. Oh, yeah.* Andre: *And also it makes the point that there is no such Central Party. Right? Yeah. That I never thought about that. But we are getting to a point as society where the decisions of the collective sometimes are more interesting than the decisions of individuals.* Zenna: *I actually... is it okay if I bring you back to when we were on collective intelligence - you mentioned this system of sharing neurons almost became because... or sharing understanding of the world or whether the cookie recipe or 3d printing. Do you think those possible now we're now just like expanding, thinking big, do you think it's possible to extend that kind of collective and Intelligence into anon2696444391 we build infrastructure and society?* Andre: *The answer is yes. Because there's a lot of knowledge and that is locked in, in many institutions. Basic know anon2696444391. And that knowledge is is it like the idea that we share information is an idea that the internet started like promoting that, you know, we get information, we put it out there and we, you know, share it? Well, I don't know exactly where it started. But like, one of the main examples was, for instance, the p2p movement, you know, like, by the time that like people started sharing mp3 files, you had this idea that Well, I have, like this music file, but it's just information I can share that information and is we just all enrich each other, you know, this idea that we can enrich each other. And then came like the a open source movement, which is basically this idea of like, you know, institutions such as companies and like universities, they all had like information such as code that was valuable to them, but it was locked, like in their institutions.* *So if you could get that know anon2696444391, and just like release it out there. I think the easiest case, of course, is with software because the information is the software, right? So it's a bit more direct. And it's also because they are so involved with computers that are very obviously involved with the internet. So it's obvious that like the open source movement group, but I'm thinking what would be the open source movement for other institutions such as, you know, maybe health institutions or educational institutions that like they have know anon2696444391, and it's sometimes locked in people sometimes locked in special institutions, but I think there's a lot of things that start happening once you start releasing all that knowledge. And it has to happen on something. So for instance, open source happened on GitHub, or basically a platform. And it has to that's where, you know, people have to find the each other, that's the thing, right? How do they find each other, then we start talking about things such as either social networks, and GitHub is a social network or protocols for social network. And that's where sort of scuttlebutt comes into the picture.* *Actually, you know, I think we should really emphasize that email is a decentralized protocol. And it has helped for decentralizing information and sharing information also, between institutions. I mean, email is actually a really big thing that helps us share knowledge. And we need to remember that, you know, that's just one of the things that we can do, we could do much more than that we could like have much better systems than just email.* Zenna: *To add on to that you you mentioned anon2696444391 we start sharing that information. And for the infrastructures of society, we also already do have computer controlled mechanics, which means that building even hardware or building physical things still so computer data can The open source it isn't as code, which is pretty amazing.* *Before we round up, you mentioned also that scuttlebutt is essential in the sense that it's a social network. And it's interesting because it is so easy to build collective intelligence upon a social network that also replicates the human structure that we use to share data between humans.* *Are there any shout outs? Any universe here we do this any anything else that you'd like to throw out there before we run this out?* Andre: *universe? Hear me? Um, what kind of thing?* Zenna: *It can be. I don't know. Anything. Thanks to your ManyVerse backers.* Andre: *Oh, yes. Well, definitely. I have to thank them. That's that's that's one thing that Yeah, I'm actually very happy that like people like some some of them have donated an amount that if I would do it myself, I would find it like this is this is ridiculous. And I'm really thankful for those people.* *And I also think that I need more help in general. One of the things that I'm noticing is that there is actually a scarcity of people and resources in one of these fields that seemingly looks like it's, it's on fire and it's like awesome, such as open source, for instance, it seems like everything like open source is the hottest thing, but there's actually scarcity of people and resources and funding and stuff. So for instance, I've talked with a couple of other people who are concerned about open source funding we have this call where we were like talking you know, what can we do and stuff. The situation is looking pretty negative, but my my shout out is this is the future and it's like, it's not because I want it to be the future because it's actually changing world like crazy way. We need to sort of think okay, anon2696444391 do we fit this into? Not necessarily anon2696444391 do we fit this into The society that has existed is so far, we need to think, Okay, anon2696444391 do we build society with this or on this? And I think we need a lot more people and resources. And we also need to get together with more people from other fields, I think, like these, you know, programmers who are doing open source and stuff, I think they should be talking to anthropologists and people who have been thinking about, you know, I don't know, actually I don't know. But the point is, like, we need to get better at finding people from other fields. And I'm not blaming anyone, I'm not saying that the programs are too stuck into the corners. I'm just saying that we also, we not only miss people in funding, we miss opportunities to bridge with other communities, other fields of research and other kind of stuff. And we need to create a dialogue with that.* *There's just this potential for things to happen. And for things to get better in this field that seems to be taking fire, beyond fire and like in really being hyped and stuff. I just want to be part of that in some way.* Zenna: *Thank you guys for listening. Thank you. And thank you, Andre. for sharing, fantastic worlds. For those of you who see the potential in the structure: shout out. There definitely seems to be a chance for a different world.* *So that wraps it up.* Andre: *Thank you for inviting me to the podcast.*" 2,67918,2019-12-24T00:48:13.677Z,12247,0,12,11,1,1,0,37.4,67882,anon3379761435,anon490146484,"Hello @anon490146484 , we know each other (a bit) from Scuttlebutt. Nice to read you! This made me think: [quote=""anon490146484, post:1, topic:12247""] So there could be like, new ways of adapting each other’s intelligence and merging them in ways that don’t require global consensus. [...] Global consensus is a very difficult problem to solve I think. I think we’re getting too much ahead of ourselves. I think we should try to solve like smaller cases of consensus. [/quote] When I think about collective intelligence, I like to use metaphors from evolutionary biology. I like social systems with an engine of variation (like mutation or sex in biology), and an engine of selection among the variants (like natural selection in biology). In the right conditions, these systems converge: some variants are superior to others, so they outcompete them, and suddenly the species has evolved. I am aware of the problems posed by taking Darwinian evolution as a blueprint for social processes (for one, the variation and selection processes are not independent from each other in most social processes). But still, there is something very appealing in this schema. Back in the days of the unMonastery, I tried to apply it to [Protocol](/t/4748), a set of low-level rules of interaction for working together. Sometimes it seems a lot of Egderyders lives by it, other times it just seems a failure. Good one, though :slight_smile:" 3,67990,2019-12-29T14:09:17.513Z,12247,0,11,10,1,1,0,37.2,67882,anon1753543892,anon490146484,"Great to have you here @anon490146484! Nice Interview! [quote=""anon490146484, post:1, topic:12247""] Yeah, or collective neurons. I mean, beginning somewhere small and Yeah, actually, the brain is a huge thing. So I think the brain is like the ultimate goal if we could create a collective brain. But yes, it’s going towards that direction, basically, sort of like some people have some insights. Some other people have other insights. How can we get there? sites and put them together. What’s very interesting about the brain is that there’s no central part, like hierarchically distributed, that this is the ultimate neuron that tells those neurons anon2696444391 to interact with each other. [/quote] The great leviathan can be democratic if we think of it as collective intelligence becoming its own deciding entity with the help of developing tech. I am anon2373157426 curious where that will go and anon2696444391 that will effect current political structures and our concept of the political party. There are anon2373157426 a few people engaging in serious discussions and development in the field of collective intelligence on the Edgeryders platform at the moment. For example this application for the CI incubator to answer the H2020 call: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/applying-for-the-h2020-collective-intelligence-call-looking-for-operational-partners-and-collaborators/11974 great idea and team. Maybe you would like to have a look and add your perspective. You could also join their weekly calls: Edgeryders Team is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. Topic: H2020 Collective Intelligence Call Time: Dec 26, 2019 08:00 PM Brussels Every day, until Dec 27, 2019, 2 occurrence(s) Dec 26, 2019 08:00 PM Dec 27, 2019 08:00 PM Please download and import the following iCalendar (.ics) files to your calendar system. Daily: https://zoom.us/meeting/uZQoc-uuqT4vwb5dbeYfkg7vXiBXa351Ug/ics?icsToken=98tyKu2oqz8oHNOQtVztY6kqW5n4b8-1lGZM_6dfmSbjCCcEdDv_FNpDYecuJd-B Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/405426755 Meeting ID: 405 426 755" 4,68233,2020-01-06T10:21:43.381Z,12247,2,11,10,1,0,0,32.2,67882,anon490146484,anon490146484,"Hey @anon3379761435 and @anon1753543892, thanks for the replies. Took me a while to reply because [I had a deadline](https://twitter.com/anon490146484/status/1213814520147324938). On collective intelligence, I realize Alberto has anon2373157426 different intuitions about it than I do. The things I was envisioning during that interview were specific designs that could shape internet interactions towards being more ""meaningful"" or ""efficient"". Two designs I'd like to share: Social bookmarking, but not the way it has been done so far. When you browse the web with a classical browser, it highlights visited links in purple, and non-visited links in blue. It sanon2696444391s *your footprint* of browsing the web, but no one else's. What if you could see links that others visited too? Now, before you think about the privacy implications of that, we could bypass that problem by only highlighting links that others have *shared publicly*. And by *others*, I'm talking about friends, or people you follow. This design is anon2373157426 achievable with Scuttlebutt: it's a matter of processing all the web links shared on SSB, indexing them, and then in the browser through an extension we can highlight links with a special symbol, in case they were shared by friends on SSB, and we can annotate those links with the comment they placed when they shared the link. What Wikipedia did for the collective compilation of knowledge, we could do for the collective exploration of the internet. Another idea is to extend [WorkFlowy](https://workflowy.com/) (or an alternative to it, such as Orgmode) with MMO (massive multiplayer online) capabilities. I use WorkFlowy for all my personal info, notes, journaling, etc. Its slogan is ""Organize your brain"". What if we extend the ""your"" to ""our""? With @anon2682865457 and other Europe-based Scuttlebutters we started using WorkFlowy to sketch our notes, and the collaboration model is anon2373157426 similar to a shared Google Doc. But with the difference that with infinitely-nested lists, we can have just one document and refactor that as we go. So far the experiment has been very fruitful, and we're getting really efficient at using it. One person may make a sublist for a certain bullet point, and insert a ""where is web link for this?"" and another person may suddenly web search that and fill in that info. When we're online at the same time it feels like collective lego playing, but with nested lists. It's essentially mindmapping, but *productive*, uncluttered, and efficient, with more emphasis on productive than on mindmapping. Maria, I recall seeing this H2020 initiative with Worldbrain and others from somewhere! I'm curious to hear more, but if I understood correctly from this calendar, the Zoom meetings were in the past? Are they still occurring?" 5,68236,2020-01-06T11:23:13.653Z,12247,1,11,10,1,1,0,12.2,68233,anon3379761435,anon490146484,"[quote=""anon490146484, post:4, topic:12247""] On collective intelligence, I realize Alberto has anon2373157426 different intuitions about it than I do. [/quote] I do not have this impression at all. I am simply chewing it at a higher level of abstraction: collective intelligence is best achieved not by recruiting the smartest people, but by investing in collaboration *practices*. This is absolutely not the same thing as investing in groupware: the world is littered with orgs who spend lots of money tooling up with one or the other project management suites, but when push comes to shove default to unstructured email with heavily formatted MS-Word attachments. Or, even, meetings. No, collaboration practices are really social rules, and require anon2373157426 some social engineering. I still find this intuition profound and fresh, and realize that my own tribe (this one), while comparatively advanced, is nowhere near taking it onboard to its fullest. Your reflections on [quote=""anon490146484, post:4, topic:12247""] specific designs that could shape internet interactions towards being more “meaningful” or “efficient” [/quote] Continues the same intellectual trajectory. You focus on tools, because your group already has an unspoken agreement that each member is going to make some extra effort to achieve better group-level efficiency. Most groups do not have that. Even those that do are constantly struggling to onboard new people, or contrast the tendency of members to ""cut corners"". [quote=""anon490146484, post:4, topic:12247""] What if you could see links that others visited too? [/quote] Actually, Discourse does this already. It displays small numbers next to links: they are click counts. I have no information on anon2696444391 appreciated this feature is. I use it mostly for my own posts, as a very rough indicator of the usefulness of the links that I used to back my argument. I do not know WorkFlowy, and their website is just a sign-up-for-updates page. So, I cannot comment on anything useful there." 6,68768,2020-01-15T15:47:20.659Z,12247,0,10,9,1,2,0,37.0,68236,anon659222949,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:5, topic:12247""] No, collaboration practices are really social rules, and require anon2373157426 some social engineering. [/quote] This has really been at the heart of the exploration into collaboration at The Borderland, which has been a great playground to test the propagation of ""best practices by meme"" and a bit of nudging through available incentives. I have always been skeptical of anyone who tries to offer collective intelligence through a tool alone. [quote=""anon490146484, post:4, topic:12247""] “Organize your brain”. What if we extend the “your” to “our”? [/quote] As I understand it, this is exactly where @anon3554387720 is trying to go with Memex & Storex?" 1,66685,2019-12-02T16:04:44.127Z,12081,0,21,20,25,0,0,189.2,66685,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"## Session - Scuttlebutt intro by [anon1791909929](/u/anon1791909929) and Anders ## Intro * Scuttlebutt - nautical term. The “water cooler” of the ship. * It is a network protocol a database and a bunch of clients. ## What does it mean to me? * Solves problem for sailors wanting to share adventures among each others. * Available offline * Keeping the connection in the same room. Wifi/bluetooth. * Main application is a social network. But other things are possible to build upon it. ## More about data and the network graph * The reason it works offline is because everything is stored on your computer. * [sanon2696444391ing of a distributed graph] The rabbit will not see the cat. * You dont have to store everything about everyone on the planet. You store 'friends of friends"". * All the friends help each others with storing the data. * Everyone is a backup for everyone. * Your view is a very small. You only see part of the graph. ## Data integrity * Your identity is a cryptographic key. A digital signature. * Blockchain => immutable. It can only grow one way. * The evidence of edits are always there. ## Privacy * You can also put in private messages. * It doesn’t leak metadata about private messages. * The private messages are sent to everyone, but only one person is able to read it. * You can see who sent a private message, but not who it is for. Q: Does it take much resources? A: No, it will stay in the social graph. Q: Will you see the private messages which are not for you? A: No it will not be sanon2696444391n in the application. The application will only sanon2696444391 you private messages which are for you. ## Application: * Chess * GIT * Social Media * …more ## Resilience * Interesting because of social protests and governments could shut down the internet. * Scuttlebutt would still run. Q: What happens when internet collapse. A: It follows the social graph. It works over any kind of media. USB/Wifi/Bluetooth It can work completely off the grid. There are different islands of connections. There were some nazis in Norway using it in isolation. Getting started * Jacob recommends to start using it on a local network. * The main client for desktop is called patchwork, the app manyverse is for mobile. Q: How can we find more information about this. A: We have created a new webpage to introduce scuttlebutt. https://scuttlebutt.nz/ * This is about ownership about your own blockchain. * The coordination of the code is also online. * One of the challenges for development are the very local social networks. * The headache is that it is not the best tool of being anonymous. * It is more about letting people in oppressive regimes have access to the world outside. ## Best of scuttlebutt * Best part about scuttlebutt is the community. * Tool for meeting nice people in real life. * The best part is not seeing the whole planet. It is a nice filter for idiots … except for the Norway nazi islands." 2,66711,2019-12-02T19:35:10.885Z,12081,0,19,18,1,0,0,83.8,66685,anon1791909929,anon2868057530,Hi that Jacob is me :wave: 3,66715,2019-12-02T20:08:19.245Z,12081,1,19,18,1,0,0,13.8,66685,anon3379761435,anon2868057530,"Hello @anon2868057530 and @anon1791909929, welcome! I also use Scuttlebutt. I like the idea, and I like the people I have met, in the abstract, but I have to say that after a year on the network I have not made many connections. My attempts at starting conversations fall anon2373157426 flat (example: `%SnmxaMynurbQfsupTYQQOWSDLipMyLu5GZgbARohXTM=.sha256`). Most of the conversations I seem to intercept are about... developing the Scuttlebutt protocol and the software for it. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? Any suggestions?" 4,66724,2019-12-02T20:35:14.810Z,12081,1,18,17,1,0,0,58.6,66715,anon2868057530,anon3379761435,"Hej @anon3379761435 — I can only share what I have done; a anon2488317424 bit to improve the *signal to noise ratio;* in general I take who I follow very seriously, letting the network/client do the role of finding content. By this I mean I've (kindly) unfollowed several of the developers that are no longer 1 hop away but 2 hops. By doing this, I've follow more people that I enjoy reading and contributing to; but also have the visibility of the two hop people via the #channels — so in my case if someone posts nice photography or outdoor adventures I'll see it. #channels permit a greater visibility for topics you may be interested in. Following developers on scuttlebutt is akin to drinking from a firehose — which is in a way positive since they “dogfood” by using the network they have built to sustain the network. Recently, by going to re:web in malmö I was able to do side trips to visit some of these friends that I have made, both in Rønne(DK) and Arnhem(NL); including some of the fine peeps at re:web(SE)." 5,66891,2019-12-04T15:58:34.577Z,12081,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,66724,anon3379761435,anon2868057530,"Noted with thanks. I have used channels in the past (especially #solarpunk), but with not a lot of results." 6,66905,2019-12-04T17:52:51.388Z,12081,1,16,15,1,0,0,43.2,66891,anon2868057530,anon3379761435,"@anon3379761435 — Just to follow up, there has been a bit of discussion on ssb in the last 24h — another is an exploration on anon2696444391 to better deal with the “dogfooding” and discussing a few strategies to avoid a low signal to noise ratio. I'd invite you to consider returning; as there has been an influx of a few solar punk and permaculture peeps. The discussion, sparked by snailest starts at %i1Xcs0vB9/ARAJPclLRHLEXk/bDjuZpXlle/ZqNNiw0=.sha256 and I'd be more than happy to help you and others out to find the intersection of the social graph and community we all seek." 7,66906,2019-12-04T18:14:32.765Z,12081,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,66905,anon659222949,anon2868057530,"Cool anon2868057530, thanks for the update! I’ve also not been on SSB for a couple of months, but will check back in soon." 8,67564,2019-12-16T16:33:56.874Z,12081,1,14,13,2,0,0,32.8,66685,anon2868057530,anon2868057530," For those interested, there will be a “ScuttleCamp” in Brazil [date=2020-06-08 timezone=""Brazil/East""] → [date=2020-06-12 timezone=""Brazil/East""] > 5-day gathering in a lush, rural village setting, where Butts from around the world can gather to cultivate relationships, share food and language, and practice tending the peer-to-peer garden. https://two.camp.scuttlebutt.nz" 9,67569,2019-12-16T18:07:40.161Z,12081,2,15,14,1,0,0,18.0,67564,anon3828707713,anon2868057530,This looks cool. But the flygskam! 10,67571,2019-12-16T18:26:43.741Z,12081,0,15,14,1,0,0,68.0,67569,anon659222949,anon3828707713,"It's fine, @anon2682865457 will take everyone on her boat." 11,67572,2019-12-16T18:29:03.563Z,12081,2,16,15,1,0,0,33.2,67569,anon2868057530,anon3828707713,@anon3828707713 — with enough time you can find alternatives to flying :wink: For example there is a freighter cruise from Valencia to Rio de Janeiro at 150€ per day. I suspect the incremental CO2 emissions from carrying a person across the Atlantic is minimal :slight_smile: 12,67573,2019-12-16T18:29:22.719Z,12081,1,16,15,2,0,0,18.2,67572,anon3828707713,anon2868057530,wait - what??? got url? 13,67574,2019-12-16T18:29:48.499Z,12081,2,16,15,1,0,0,48.2,67573,anon2868057530,anon3828707713,https://www.langsamreisen.de/en/freightertravel/europe-south-america/spain-brazil-argentina/ 14,67575,2019-12-16T18:31:02.876Z,12081,0,16,15,1,0,0,38.2,67574,anon3828707713,anon2868057530,:asanon2863106368ished: ping @anon3379761435 @anon3822657227 @anon3197437925 another one for the list! 15,67576,2019-12-16T18:33:47.858Z,12081,2,16,15,1,1,0,18.2,67572,anon659222949,anon2868057530,"[quote=""anon2868057530, post:11, topic:12081""] with enough time you can find alternatives to flying [/quote] Not to mention money. That freighter would set you back 1800€ one way from Spain to Brazil!" 16,67577,2019-12-16T18:41:26.737Z,12081,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,67576,anon3828707713,anon659222949,Or you can just ditch the whole flygskam thing all together -had a chat about this with @anon1732761404 the other day. 17,67578,2019-12-16T18:41:42.236Z,12081,0,16,15,1,0,0,53.2,67576,anon2868057530,anon659222949,"Thats fair. This is but one example; some of the other ones are at 62€/day etc… I posted that one with a few moments of googling as an indicative example; but there may be others as am alternative to flying. In my case, I've looked at freighter cruises as an alternative to flying; similar to using the train. In some cases you pay by €, or by hr for a more effective transportation route. The website is called “slow travel” for a reason." 18,67761,2019-12-19T14:19:47.442Z,12081,0,13,12,1,0,0,67.6,66685,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"I thought I'd share the statistics on the recent growth of scuttlebutt. I have been modelling the growth of the platform by looking at the growth of the uids over time, and using a method called crow-amsaa that I blatantly stole from the mechanical maintenance world. This method has a “forecasting” ability; you can model the effects of actions to see the impact over time. In the case of scuttlebutt, I used data created by a robot to get a time series data of the uid growth over time. The proviso here is you may not get a full view of the network and its islands. Time is measured as the days since August 15, 2015, and the graph below sanon2696444391s growth as of seven months ago. ![image|690x388,75%](upload://cgsl6PESJ9mW02zV8oSNfYBpolJ.png) The important thing here is the exponent, β, which was found to be 1.973. I did a check of this last night, and the graph below sanon2696444391s the deviation between the above fit, and the current results. ![20%20PM|690x404,75%](upload://20quJXzhlPrGfmiPAsyWE7Qt6af.png) There is a small deviation over the last seven months, I'd almost consider this noise. The interesting thing is the growth is still in the “reasonable” band; we have discussed that growth over a β of 5 would look like an eternal September event; we get on average 20 uids growth per day, including users on manyverse (android) and Patchwork *et al." 19,68345,2020-01-07T17:15:51.244Z,12081,1,9,8,1,0,0,56.8,67574,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,@anon3828707713 & @anon659222949 — I see this made the guardian; https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jan/07/cargo-ship-train-rail-to-vancouver-canada-low-carbon-travel-europe 20,68494,2020-01-09T17:00:05.993Z,12081,0,8,7,1,0,0,36.6,68345,anon3203746736,anon2868057530,"Wasn't cheap and took a long time, but seemed like a good adventure. And maybe grounded in a kind of reality that seems almost lost in a way. I have flown to Europe from the US 20 times in my life and it still amazes me every time that you can walk into this metal tube in SF and 10 hours later get off in a European city. Maybe with less air travel activities like letter and journal writing will become more popular rather than posting selfies and making tweets.." 21,68624,2020-01-12T18:46:59.016Z,12081,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,66685,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"@anon Another Scuttlebutt user .(@anon *discussion* >10 published 1000 or more messages. On the high end, I suspect there are a few pubs and bots; automated messaging. *midrange* >690 published at least 17 messages (average of one per week). 131 published at least 122 messages (average of one per day). Seems pretty reasonable; and between both stats is most of the community. The viz is below, following a thread that starts at %H/n3842vIBgcLngL5qhNMpV8iP7EOt2qm7O8sT8y64o=.sha256 for the interested. ![image|600x400](upload://aONey1Dmhc6FvME5JypEqTj5wjq.png)" 1,56914,2019-07-20T05:14:45.743Z,10385,1,38,37,20,0,0,157.6,56914,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Dear community, we would like to ask you to put into as anon2488317424 words as possible why you are here. # * What motivated you to join? * What motivates you to participate? * What do you search, find and offer on the Edgeryders-anon3983078393ed Internet of Humans/NGI community? * How do/would you explain the platform to newcomers? ## The shorter your answers are the better! *Let's use collective intelligence to bring communication to the next level and help even more amazing people to understand and find us :)*" 2,56935,2019-07-21T07:17:48.155Z,10385,1,33,32,1,0,0,31.6,56914,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,"So, I joined Edgeryders a while ago, to become active in a project related to the country I live in ([Futurespotters in Georgia](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/workspaces/spot-the-future-georgia)). I recently got active again on the platform because of the IOH project, when I was tagged in a post for the work I do with Coda Story. - _what motivates me to join?_ an inspiring community who is looking to find solutions for a better world - _what motivates me to participate?_ interesting people and discussions on topics that matter to me (freedom of information, participatory decision-making, privacy - beyond our own western world) - _What do you search, find and offer on the Internet of Humans Edgeryder community?_ I search for conversation that make me help figure out anon2696444391 we can have better online experience - _How do/would you explain the platform to newcomers?_ THE BIG QUESTION :) Thanks for helping me craft the right message. So, I'd love to have your input @anon3203746736 @anon659222949 @anon3554654177 @anon2197402769 @anon3086952555 @anon1348216222 @anon1608948641 @anon3005461236 @anon3554387720 (tagging y'all because we ""conversed"" in the [ad-based internet topic](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-is-to-be-done-about-the-ad-based-internet-economy/9821/90) together :).)" 3,56944,2019-07-21T19:09:09.000Z,10385,0,36,35,1,0,0,27.2,56935,anon3554654177,anon2945747231,"Hi Inge, Great way to get introductions. I am working on mine but will write that together with my workplan and then I also set up my pages on anon1577251828 where I can explain the vision of a positive realistic middle on and with internet and iot technologies. I plan to finish mid August, Salut, Rob" 4,57023,2019-07-23T11:42:20.129Z,10385,0,34,33,69,0,0,381.8,56914,anon3161301235,anon1753543892," * What motivated you to join? Recommendation from a friend that joined about a month ago? * What motivates you to participate? am really into IoT and stuff related to it! * What do you search, find and offer on the Internet of Humans Edgeryder community? Joined in just some minutes ago, researching this wonderful repository of information. Don't understand it fully just yet! * How do/would you explain the platform to newcomers? Ask me in a few days and I'll tell you!!! )))" 5,57025,2019-07-23T11:53:43.606Z,10385,2,33,32,2,0,0,86.6,56914,anon1608948641,anon1753543892,"**What motivated you to join?** A friend pointed me to Edgeryders and said that this is where the conversations are held, that I should be interested in. Spoiler alert: He was right. :) **What motivates you to participate?** I want, no, need to make a deep dive into the social side of online communications, anon2696444391 it changes human interactions, anon2696444391 we can embrace technology for positive social change. **What do you search, find and offer on the Internet of Humans Edgeryder community?** Stimulation, new viewpoints and suggestions on anon2696444391 to do the being human thing a bit better. And I'll try my best to provide the same too! **How do/would you explain the platform to newcomers?** That's a tough one, as I think that most people look for something slightly different here.. and it still someanon2696444391 works :)" 6,57026,2019-07-23T12:05:23.877Z,10385,0,33,32,17,1,0,106.6,57025,anon294806887,anon1608948641,"[quote=""anon1608948641, post:5, topic:10385""] I think that most people look for something slightly different here… and it still someanon2696444391 works :slight_smile: [/quote] Amen to that. It's what I've noticed too, over the years." 7,57069,2019-07-24T10:30:44.395Z,10385,1,32,31,1,1,0,31.4,57025,anon3379761435,anon1608948641,"[quote=""anon1608948641, post:5, topic:10385""] I think that most people look for something slightly different here… and it still someanon2696444391 works :slight_smile: [/quote] Score one for serendipity!" 8,57071,2019-07-24T10:48:42.743Z,10385,0,30,29,2,1,0,61.0,57069,anon1608948641,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:7, topic:10385""] Score one for serendipity! [/quote] that is exactly the thing I am always looking for in my online communications - that moment when I find something or connect to people I otherwise would not have known that I was missing." 9,57103,2019-07-24T15:21:16.306Z,10385,1,28,27,2,1,0,35.6,56914,anon2573410237,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:1, topic:10385""] * What motivated you to join? [/quote] I bumped into @anon3379761435 at a conference and he told me about EdgeRyders. It sounded interesting, so I sanon2696444391ed up. I was familiar with the technical platform (and I like it), so I signed up to be present more and get a deeper sense of what EdgeRyders _is_ and what is going on. [quote] * What motivates you to participate? [/quote] So far, I don't really participate. I follow the digest and read here and there, but I haven't actively stepped into any conversations. I pick up some inspirations on things that interest me, but that's about it. [quote] * How do/would you explain the platform to newcomers? [/quote] It's a platform that some people use to.. run? coordinate? do? their EU-funded (?) research (?) projects which has an eclectic mix of conversations about society/internet topics and a surprisingly high number of members. It gives me the constant feeling that I am missing out what it is _actually_ about. :)" 10,57110,2019-07-24T16:39:45.065Z,10385,1,27,26,2,1,0,65.4,57103,anon3379761435,anon2573410237,"[quote=""anon2573410237, post:9, topic:10385""] It gives me the constant feeling that I am missing out what it is *actually* about. [/quote] We are so decentralized that, in a very real sense, there is no all-encompassing ""we"", just many partially overlapping groups of people following specific issues or working together on specific projects. :smiley: I do believe there are some *values* that more or less everyone shares: * the belief that societies and their economies are machines to produce _individual_ freedom, happiness and prosperity. * the mistrust in overpowering, very large systems. * the belief that the world might yet be changed, and an intelligent and coordinated effort of many people makes a difference, though they might have very anon2488317424 power. * an orientation towards facts over rhetoric. * an orientation towards sharing knowledge. * a fairly high degree of mutual trust (""community"")." 11,57486,2019-08-02T12:55:43.858Z,10385,0,25,24,1,0,0,10.0,57110,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,ok so I thought about this @anon2573410237 and tried to put together a sketch that will then form basis for info to put online. if you want to have a look and help poke holes in it let me know. 12,57490,2019-08-02T13:14:16.581Z,10385,1,25,24,1,0,0,75.0,56914,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"Like many others, I have been using anon1577251828/edgeryding to make new professional contacts, discover and develop new knowledge, improve projects, find talent to hire and build meaningful partnerships and funding opportunities. While the platform does change shape, the overall process is designed so that participation in the online conversation and events generates some kind of levelling up that I cannot do alone As someone whose life and work exists outside the normal order of things, I felt like we really needed some peer-to-peer way to nurture personal and professional development. I had tried out a lot of different alternatives: higher education, online learning etc but nothing seems to really fit in terms of both learning and generating tangible opportunities to do interesting things. What makes Edgeryders work for me is being plugged into an open ended, eclectic scene of people from different backgrounds and places in their lives right now. Humans are much better at pointing one another in the right direction through dialogue than trying to find the kind of things I need on a well structured website or formal education process. If I don't know what it's called, or even that I need it, or if the word for it doesn't exist, anon2696444391 can I find it? Through people who connect me to people and knowledge. When we came up with the name, Edgeryders, it was this idea someanon2696444391 - navigating these ""wilderness"" spaces for which we don't have maps through edges (connections made in conversation between individuals, places, topics and all kinds of other stuff). What keeps me involved is that I love and respect the community and anarchic+ friendly culture we have built together :slight_smile: ." 13,61693,2019-10-18T14:37:22.018Z,10385,1,18,17,1,1,0,28.6,57490,anon3708943593,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:12, topic:10385""] anarchic+ [/quote] Love this term: anarchic+ could you elaborate a bit on it @anon3828707713?" 14,61983,2019-10-22T14:30:27.001Z,10385,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,61693,anon3828707713,anon3708943593,"I think it is being able to keep in mind both the desired outcomes and understanding that the path there is pluralistic. Also in terms of what drives us in different situations, balance between individual and collective, where centralisation and top down decision making is necessary (no thank you I do not want decision making by commitee that includes non experts when it comes to live-critical surgery, just someone who knows what they are doing then and there). Etc" 15,61984,2019-10-22T14:41:16.329Z,10385,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,56914,anon1679055112,anon1753543892,"* What motivated you to join? Mostly the feeling of alignment after meeting some of the Edgeryders, then participating in your festival in Brussels. Great experience. * What motivates you to participate? Topics that matter and the feeling people are motivated greatly by their need to improve the society/civilization in many ways. * What do you search, find and offer on the Edgeryders-anon3983078393ed Internet of Humans/NGI community? At the moment I just follow what's going on when I can, I am involved in other Edgeryders initiatives. * How do/would you explain the platform to newcomers? It's a community of people from all over the world, working in teams on various projects and exchanging their experiences with purpose of helping and empowering each other. One thing is common for all of them: Working on projects which make sense and which lead to better humanity." 16,68220,2020-01-06T07:24:22.019Z,10385,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,56914,anon3371338499,anon1753543892,"* What motivated you to join? Community connector job offer. * What motivates you to participate? Possibility to change things. * What do you search, find and offer on the Internet of Humans Edgeryder community? In future, I'd like to find likeminded people who have experience with starting community centers. * How do/would you explain the platform to newcomers? Edgeryders is an online community working on different projects and disseminating this experience online." 1,61210,2019-10-12T12:57:22.395Z,11118,2,21,20,23,0,0,206.2,61210,anon3708943593,anon3708943593,"
Hello world I'm a PhD student at the Oxford Internet Institute and the Alan Turing Institute which is the UK's national institute for data science and artificial intelligence (AI). I'm a cultural anthropologist by training and my background is mostly in human rights and policy. Before coming to Oxford to pursue a PhD, I worked as a policy officer for a human rights NGO in London, where I worked for their digital team. We focused on understanding the intersection of Internet infrastructure and human rights, most of our work involved participating in Internet governance organisations and was focused on the right to freedom of expression, access to information and privacy. Before that, I worked at the US House of Representatives, as a policy advisor on telecommunications and European affairs, for a democratic congressman. **I am primarily interested in understanding anon2696444391 human rights NGOs are adapting to the increased importance of digital technologies, and anon2696444391 they are shifting their work now that much of it has a digital component.** For example, I have NGOs focusing on providing shelter and safe houses for survivors of domestic violence have to reckon with the increased ability of abusers to surveil and track-down their partners and children using digital technologies. Or anon2696444391 police or immigration enforcement use AI systems that can lead to over-policing of communities of color or otherwise lead to bias and discrimination of minorities. There are many concerns, in many directions, involving many different technologies. ### The relationships between technological changes and activist mobilisation? My PhD research focuses specifically on a group of NGOs that are trying to change the internet standards and protocols to align them more with human rights by directly participating along-side engineers of big tech companies. But more broadly speaking, I am interested in the question of anon2696444391 technology changes or keeps the same, the work that human rights NGOs do and anon2696444391 they adapt to changes in their work brought by digital technologies. I've always been interested in the interaction between technology and society. When I was a bachelor student at the University of Utrecht, studying for my BA, one of my main interests was the role of social media mean and anon2696444391 activists mobilize. This was at the height of a number of social uprisings. Social media, and other digital technologies were often held up as revolutionary tools that would enable people to topple their governments and do all of these things. But what I found in my work was that this is just simply not the case. Social media can certainly give the plight of activists more visibility. But at the end of the day, the power, the power inequities that exists, are not inversed using these technologies. I actually found that instead of having a liberating potential, digital technologies can also entrench existing differences. Even if people feel they have more agency. And that combination is not necessarily a good thing. ### ""Increasingly, human rights organizations are trying to target companies and code instead of governments and laws"" When I started doing more research, I became interested in the inverse of what it means for civil society to use social media. Instead of looking at what happens when activists use social media, I was interested in what happens when activists try to change anon2696444391 social media functions or try to change anon2696444391 the underlying internet is built. Instead of looking at use, I started looking at design, and the interventions in the internet infrastructure made by human rights activists. **An example of this is the work of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), which regularly participates in an organization that sets Internet standards.** Internet standards are something that we use every day. For instance, when it says HTTPS in your web browser, that's a standard, it's a standard that ensures whatever you type into your browser is encrypted. If you are looking for a particular medicine, or if you are looking for access to abortion, and you're doing that in a country where it is illegal the HTTPS protects you (somewhat) from being snooped on when typing in search queries on a website. And so, one of the tactics of the ACLU is to go to these companies that build these things and say: "Hey, have you maybe considered encrypting Y. Or making sure X leaks less data?" They try to bring a wider perspective on the social impact of protocols, one that is not necessarily included in the technical discussions when solely led by industry. Another example of an NGO intervention aimed at tech-companies: A couple of days ago, almost 120 civil society organizations signed a letter urging Facebook, not to give governments back-door access to Facebook Messenger, and to ensure there it had strong encryption. Increasingly, human rights organizations are trying to target companies and code instead of governments and laws. ### Case in point: privacy and law enforcement access This debate is complicated. When it comes to the fine line between privacy and law enforcement — I'm not sure I would be doing a PhD if I had the perfect answer to this question of anon2696444391 to solve this stalemate — but I think there are a couple of things to disentangle. First, there is a....duality — I don't want to call it hypocrisy — in anon2696444391 some of these governments portray themselves or anon2696444391 some of these governments develop their positions. For example, the Dutch government: on the one hand Internet freedom is a major part of Dutch foreign policy, they were founders of the Freedom Online Coalition (FOC). And yet, at the same time, the government strategically pushes against strong encryption, prioritising the provision of access for law enforcement over privacy/encryption concerns. Depending on which debate it is, they take contradictory positions. It’s easy to say: oh, countries in Europe take privacy seriously, they take freedom of expression seriously. And they do, but not consistently. It’s important to be aware of these contradictions. Second, regarding law enforcement concerns that they are going dark: There was a report a couple of years ago from the Berkman Center for Internet Society at Harvard University called [Going Dark](https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/28552576). It's one of the main examples that is often given by these governments, especially law enforcement. They say, Oh, you know what, we're going dark, we don't have access anymore. But we need that kind of access. And for that access, we need you to weakened encryption. And what the report actually sanon2696444391s is that the enforcement officers have more information than they've ever had before. They have more ways of combining different data sets, more systems to systematically go through it. This means that their argument is not always valid, and it’s important to question the rhetoric upon which arguments in favor of weakening encryption are based. And this is also something that the human rights NGO I work with stress: you don't necessarily solve the problem of lack of access by weakening encryption. The argument they often make is, that you don't protect your house from robbers by building a backdoor for the police, which can subsequently be used by everyone. Because that's the thing, if you create a backdoor for police, you create a backdoor for everyone. That's just anon2696444391 the technology functions. Those are some of issues and values we need to consider when we try to assess this debate. ### Civil Society Advocacy aimed at AI systems and Companies There's this running joke amongst academics that you say “I do AI” when you want to get funded, and you say “I do Machine Learning” when you want to be taken seriously academically. In other words, there's a definition bloat in what people mean when they talk about AI or AI systems. And I think that leads to a lot of confusion. But this conceptual confusion does not make the impact of these systems, anon2696444391ever defined, any less real. And this is also what a lot of the recent academic literature sanon2696444391s — that the application of AI systems can have real negative impacts on civil liberties and human rights. A prime example is when LinkedIn got into a lot of trouble because their systems tended to sanon2696444391 CEO positions consistently to white men rather than to women or people of color. The systems had learned from the existing data, which obviously sanon2696444391s the societal bias, that white men tend to be more likely to hold these kinds of positions. The existing bias in society, obviously, does not speak to the inherent suitability of (white) men for these positions. But that's the kind of nuance not captured by AI systems. So, you end up in a situation where the application of these systems actually reinforces existing bias and discrimination in society, without necessarily generating better CEOs. Obviously, a lot of human rights NGOs have been worried about this for a long time and have consistently tried to ring that bell — bringing in academic work to sanon2696444391 some of these issues. Human Rights Watch, for example, has a great program as do Amnesty International, Privacy International and Article 19. Several of the largest human rights NGOs are focusing on issues of AI systems and bias. But they're also forced to play whack-a-mole as the application of AI systems becomes more common. How to focus your resources? Which companies and applications are most concerning? Which solutions most tractable and comprehensive? Do we need sectoral guidelines, or do we need guidelines which focus on impact? Do we need self-regulatory ethics frameworks or hard data protection frameworks? All of the above? These are the issues I see a lot of NGOs grapple with. Sometimes it is easy to draw a position: for example, the campaign against killer robots (lethal auanon2863106368omous weapons) has brought NGOs together to formulate a clear policy goal using the international law. But not all issues are so clear-cut. And not in all cases are the developers of technology approachable or accountable. Very often, once a bit of research has been done, it is easy to sanon2696444391 the effect of certain technologies. But part of the problem is that many of these AI systems are developed by private companies. This means it is hard to gain access to what their technology does specifically. And a lot of these companies say they don't have to explain anon2696444391 their tech works, as it&rsquo;s their commercial secret sauce and obviously, they say they don't want to share anon2696444391 that works, because that undermines their business model. In other cases, it is hard to pin-point the "disparate impact" of a technology, even if people on the ground can feel its ramifications in terms of access to services and goods (like government support, housing, the legal system etc.). This concern, in theory, should not apply when it's government use of these technologies. But even in those cases, when they buy “AI solutions" from companies, they don't always fully understand what they're buying (into). They don't, or sometimes can’t, know anon2696444391 these systems works. So, there are a lot of issues around trying to get not just transparency, because transparency in and of itself isn't the solution, but also to get a real sense of accountability for anon2696444391 the systems function. Many NGOs are calling for regulation of AI systems. But the companies selling these systems are pushing back on regulation, under the guise of innovation. At the same time, regulators are struggling to articulate what regulation should be applied to: the AI systems, the data sets, their combined impact? Should we repurpose existing legislation or develop novel approaches? What about the gap between regulation development and implementation? We have the GDPR and yet I still get spam. This is not to say we shouldn't pursue regulation; it is to say that the discussion needs to include effective implementation too. These are the often dull but necessary bits of work many NGOs are focused on. And then there's the "minor" question of trusting regulators to be able to understand what is, and what isn't good use of it. Or even to trust them to have the best interests of people in mind in the first place. Not a given. I know people have been talking about making sure that the data sets are polished in a way to be more representative of society, or that they include more diversity. But that means we are still moving towards societies in which, some academics like Os Keyes, Kate Crawford and Alondra Nelson argue, we follow the questionable logic that more countable = good. Or that seen by the state = equality before the law. Multiple academics have argued that inclusion in a database does not mean equitable treatment by the state. Hence, there are plenty of examples which suggest bias in AI systems cannot be resolved through expansive inclusion of minorities in datasets. ### It's not just America It is easy to dismiss these concerns as distinctly American. But, let's keep in mind that Europe is not the be-all-end-all of good technology regulation. As much as we have good policies, we also have terrible policies, like the upload filters or the Google “right-to-be-forgotten”. Those are not a good examples of what solid tech-policy looks, at least not to many of the NGOs I work with. So, instead of saying, we have a responsibility to use our EU regulatory blueprint and impose that on other places — as is often said — we should be humble. Because we, as Europeans, would be incredibly resistant to the inverse of that. Actually, we are incredibly resistant to it. As can be seen in anon2696444391 we respond to the enforcement of the American blue-print of freedom of expression and (lack of regulation of) hate speech forced upon those by the ubiquity of American Internet companies. As such, when it comes to exporting our approach, I would be more inclined to say, let's provide an alternative example. Let's just say &ldquo;this is anon2696444391 we make the balance between these different values.&rdquo; And what we&rsquo;ve seen, for instance, with the GDPR, is that that did kick off a bit of a trend across the world where people are using it to model their data and privacy regulations on. And I think that sort of leading by example, is a much more effective. Anything short of that can be seen as imposing our way onto the world, which considering Europe's colonial history is not a strong look. ### Regulation, Civil Society, and Limits Some companies argue that regulation hampers innovation, while at the same time arguing that real innovation is not impacted by regulations. So like, bro.. which way is it? Does it matter immensely, or does it not matter at all? Because it certainly can't be both at the same time. I am not trying to be facetious here, just trying to tease out the contradictions in Silicon Valley rhetoric about tech-regulation. Doing so - allows for a real discussion to take place. Okay, you believe in innovation. Great. But what does that term mean to you? But if innovation to you means “move fast and break things” or “disrupt existing industries” (with anon2488317424 regard for the long-term consequences) than don’t be surprised if people outside of industry are not going to be on board or impressed. ### Case in point: Data & the Status quo Databases are, by and large, systems reflective of our bias. That's also what the academic research sanon2696444391s. It suggests that whenever presented with an AI or automated or machine learning or whatever the term-du-jour is, you always need to look for the humans. We tend to think of these systems as being without humans, all automated. But often they are not. Academic like Sarah Roberts, Mary Gray and Siddharth Suri have sanon2696444391n the human face of AI systems. And the same applies to the algorithms that are applied to the data: humans make a particular decision about anon2696444391 to weigh bits, and which part of it. Often, as Seda Gurses, has sanon2696444391n this is done to optimize towards metrics that are in the interest of the company rather than the consumer. People are fast to judge technology critics as Luddites. There are undoubtably useful applications of AI systems. But those are only going to arise if the right regulatory and economic context is in place. I mean, I'm very wary of moving towards a world in which we say &ldquo;these technologies are completely free of humans are completely free of bias, and hence, they are more trustworthy than us.&rdquo; Because there is no such technology, as technology is always the product of humans. And I think it is important not to lose sight of that. How can we develop other ways that we can ensure that there is a better understanding of anon2696444391 these technologies work? There are a lot of interesting research of academics who do really good work specifically in that field. I mentioned some above. I think it sanon2696444391s that we should not buy into the hype: that it so incredibly complicated that we could never potentially figure out anon2696444391 it works. AI is often a word for a system that learns recursively based on large data sets using complex statistics. It is not, as academics like MC Elish and danah boyd have argued, magic. Let's just call it call it for what it is, call a spade a spade. The problem is that there is not a lot of either political or economic interest in doing so. Likewise, let’s be aware of what a drive for “innovation” does. Because this is what concerns me. I've [written about it with Roel Dobbe](https://www.volkskrant.nl/columns-opinie/verwacht-geen-wonderen-van-artificiele-intelligentie~b226bfac/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F) who is a Postdoctoral Researcher at the AI Now Institute at NYU. Our government (The Netherlands) in particular, but others as well, have this sort of irrational fear of being seen as falling behind on technology and technological developments. So they're like, &ldquo;Oh, we must we must apply the AI in the cloud using IoT.&rdquo; What does that even mean? When cities want to put things on blockchain, they should ask themselves if they need anything more than a spreadsheet? Why would you want to have an immutable spreadsheet spread out over multiple computers, for whatever simple thing you're trying to do to attract tourists? I get it, it sounds cool. But that's also my tax money that's being used to work with technology that I don't think is useful, and that I'd rather see you put into education, or health care or anywhere else where we could improve rather than disrupt. In addition to the fact that you have these sort of perverse economic incentives on the part of the company's not to reveal anon2696444391 their systems work, there's also this innovation myth which encourages governments to take steps to include technologies that they don't fully understand or might not even need. ### AI Systems are Dull and Humans are Inconsistent (luckily) I also have a pet-peeve about the dullness of these systems as they are commonly applied. The logic of these AI systems is that they give you recommendations based on your past behavior. But humans change. Please don&rsquo;t give me fashion advice based on what I would have liked at 16. I have evolved, thank God. Yesterday, my husband was sitting at the dining table, looking at Amazon trying to buy something. And he was like, &ldquo;this stupid website, keeps recommending me socks.&rdquo; Because he bought socks once. &ldquo;I don't need more socks!&rdquo; he said. The logic behind it is, &ldquo;Oh, you like this thing. And hence, you must like more of this thing,&rdquo; right. But for some of these things, you don't need more than one, such as an electric toothbrush, I don't need five of them in different colors. I need one. Right? Sometimes it does work a anon2488317424 bit better. I find it really useful with academic books. I look for a particular book, and it says people like you, or people who've bought this book, also liked this book.&rdquo; I've actually found books that I had not yet come across. But then again, for instance, for music, is a good example of anon2696444391 these systems are simply to flat for human needs. Because as soon as you have a anon2488317424 bit of an eclectic taste in music — one day you listen to Rihanna, and the next day you listen to Mozart — with the recommendations there is no in-between. And so you either get a lot of the same of one thing, or a lot of the same of another thing, but it doesn't actually capture the nuance of human taste. And I think that is one of the problems with the systems in general, they don't get they don't capture the nuance of the complexity of human life. ### Local Knowledge first What should we do? What is the role of academics and human rights activist in Europe, given these various complications I laid out? I've worked with a number of NGOs on security methods and I worked with their safety teams. When I was living in Brazil, I worked with an NGO that specifically focused on digital security trainings for human rights activists. On the one hand, they have limited capacity to engage with all of the latest and greatest technological developments. On the other hand, they have a lot of incredibly local knowledge we tend to not think about naturally, because it doesn&rsquo;t come up in our context. A great example is a friend who's a very well-known activist. He knows that the police are monitoring him, that he's under surveillance, and so are his family and friends. And so one of the things that we did is setting up this elaborate encrypted emailing service for him, explained VPNs, and helped him use signal. And then one morning, he came in, and he said, you know, this is all incredibly great. I now have all of these encrypted services. But you know, what happened this morning. I was sitting on my motorcycle, texting someone, a police officer walked up to me, and just grabbed the phone out of my hand.&rdquo; Which meant that it was open, which meant that no matter the encrypted services, no matter the signal, no matter the VPN, they had access to his phone. We didn’t discuss this scenario because for most of the trainers, it simply hadn’t occurred to them that this might be anon2696444391 the police would act. I have seen the tendency of European trainers who go abroad with their really elaborate technologies for improving your safety. But they don't actually address what a security risk looks like on the ground. So, I think one of the things that I would be really interested in, is actually trying to figure out whether a training on IoT is useful, and perhaps look at physical safety. Working with a philosophy where the starting point is: you know a lot about the problems that you have, so explain to us what your problems are, and then collaboratively, we can bring together a bunch of different resources to figure out what a solution should look like. Instead of sharing the technical knowledge that we have, pouring it out and then leaving. Not that everyone does that. But I do think that it is an easy mistake to make, an easy trap to fall into. ### A Human Centered Internet Setting a good example in terms of legislation is a start. And not falling into easy-fanon2945747231r pointing towards obvious scapegoats (i.e. well but in name-country-X everything is so much worse). There are lot issues we could work on in Europe to improve anon2696444391 the internet is used, and the extent to which it enables or disables certain civil liberties. The UK is a prime example, using the internet infrastructure for things that it wasn't built for. So, I think one of the things we can do in Europe is be a anon2488317424 bit less on our high horses, because we don't always get it right. We should try to figure out that if we want to have an internet of humans, and if we want to think about a European Framework, anon2696444391 can we make sure we do that? Putting our values first. ### What's next: AI regulation? I would love to say that it's enough to just regulate these companies. And to a certain extent, you can do that. For example, Nazi content in in in Germany isn't accessible. That's a regulation. It's not about what Google stands for. But it's simply what the country has said. So, there is a regulatory component to where you say simply, technically, we don't want this to be accessible. This happens all the time. And that's part of the friction which you see now with the right to be forgotten. There's been a lot of talk about companies developing voluntary ethical frameworks for AI governance. I think this is a good first step, I always think it's good for companies to be explicit about their values and what they stand for, and what they find acceptable and what they don't. That being said, a lot of the recent literature actually sanon2696444391s that these ethical frameworks are always going to be articulated within the bones of the business logic, which means it's never going to be radical, which means it's never going to be anything that chips away at late stage capitalism. So, then the question becomes &ldquo;anon2696444391 can you make it hurt?&rdquo; Financially? I honestly think, and again, I might be too jaded here, that if the companies don’t hurt financially, they won't change. And in addition, I think there's also the question of trust, that can be leveraged in this particular case. AI technologies have run into the same problem that we've seen with biotechnology. And that is that the public is worried about it, scared about it. The kind of narratives about our AI overlords, which, you know, generally is not something that I believe in or support. But it does mean that these companies need to work harder to get the public to buy their stuff. So, we need to find a way to make sure that we leverage those two things, a lack of trust in this product, as well as making sure that it financially hurts businesses not to comply with whatever regulations we set up, or whatever values we hold dear. The question, anon2696444391ever, becomes: what are the guidelines and what are the values? I think there's justifiably been a lot of pushback on for instance, the guidelines that were developed by the high-level group of experts on AI. So, the question is: where does corporate capture happen? Because if for instance, like with those guidelines is not half as efficient as you would like it to be. That is why I do think corporate capture is a huge issue. And a meta concern we need to think about. And at the same time, while it is convenient to assume that Europeans have a shared set of values enshrined in national and European documents the current rise of populism and xenophobia paints a much less convenient picture. How do you make sure – in the face of so much societal unrest – to uphold some primary principles? **Burning Question:** What does the future of civil society advocacy look like, given the prevalence of these digital technologies and their impact on the work that civil society is currently doing? ## Post a thoughtful comment below ahead of the **[workshop on AI & Justice ](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326)** on November 19! This will help us to prepare good case studies for exploring these topics in detail. It will also ensure participants are at least a bit familiar with one another's background and experiences around the topics at hand." 2,61342,2019-10-14T16:23:42.449Z,11118,0,18,17,0,0,0,33.6,61210,anon3203746736,anon3708943593,Wonderful wide-ranging remarks. You have clearly thought deeply about these and many other related issues. I am this well-spoken in my dreams. 3,62518,2019-10-30T09:07:48.174Z,11118,0,17,16,26,1,0,148.4,61210,anon388720932,anon3708943593,"[quote=""anon3708943593, post:1, topic:11118""] Increasingly, human rights organizations are trying to target companies and code instead of governments and laws [/quote] indeed. i have heard there are even some governments that are opening embassies at tech centers like silicon valley (denmark)" 4,64159,2019-11-15T10:48:22.722Z,11118,1,10,9,3,0,0,37.0,61210,anon3828707713,anon3708943593,"@anon3708943593 found this piece of news from Bruce Schneier that might be of interest to you: *"" Dark Web Site Taken Down without Breaking Encryption* *The US Department of Justice unraveled a dark web child-porn website, leading to the arrest of 337 people in at least 18 countries. This was all accomplished not through any backdoors in communications systems, but by analyzing the bitcoin transactions and [following the money](https://www.wired.com/story/dark-web-welcome-to-video-takedown-bitcoin/):""* https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/10/dark_web_site_t.html" 5,64160,2019-11-15T10:49:03.448Z,11118,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,64159,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,If you have some follow up questions share them with me? I can ping him and ask 6,64178,2019-11-15T11:21:57.738Z,11118,2,12,11,1,1,0,47.4,61210,anon1753543892,anon3708943593,"@anon3708943593 and @anon3203746736, this is a great a long post, but kind of hard to take in and especially comment all at once. I was wondering what you think about testing to post a few of these headlines as their own thread? They are rich enough to start a discussion on there own, and maybe easier to engage with? I do not mean to make summaries, which is already being done by some great copywriters @anon3828707713 has taken care of. I mean to take for example this part: [quote=""anon3708943593, post:1, topic:11118""] ### Local Knowledge first What should we do? What is the role of academics and human rights activist in Europe, given these various complications I laid out? I’ve worked with a number of NGOs on security methods and I worked with their safety teams. When I was living in Brazil, I worked with an NGO that specifically focused on digital security trainings for human rights activists. On the one hand, they have limited capacity to engage with all of the latest and greatest technological developments. On the other hand, they have a lot of incredibly local knowledge we tend to not think about naturally, because it doesn’t come up in our context. A great example is a friend who’s a very well-known activist. He knows that the police are monitoring him, that he’s under surveillance, and so are his family and friends. And so one of the things that we did is setting up this elaborate encrypted emailing service for him, explained VPNs, and helped him use signal. And then one morning, he came in, and he said, you know, this is all incredibly great. I now have all of these encrypted services. But you know, what happened this morning. I was sitting on my motorcycle, texting someone, a police officer walked up to me, and just grabbed the phone out of my hand.” Which meant that it was open, which meant that no matter the encrypted services, no matter the signal, no matter the VPN, they had access to his phone. We didn’t discuss this scenario because for most of the trainers, it simply hadn’t occurred to them that this might be anon2696444391 the police would act. I have seen the tendency of European trainers who go abroad with their really elaborate technologies for improving your safety. But they don’t actually address what a security risk looks like on the ground. So, I think one of the things that I would be really interested in, is actually trying to figure out whether a training on IoT is useful, and perhaps look at physical safety. Working with a philosophy where the starting point is: you know a lot about the problems that you have, so explain to us what your problems are, and then collaboratively, we can bring together a bunch of different resources to figure out what a solution should look like. Instead of sharing the technical knowledge that we have, pouring it out and then leaving. Not that everyone does that. But I do think that it is an easy mistake to make, an easy trap to fall into. [/quote] And post it by itself without real changes so a concentrated discussion of the interesting points made just there can be had and also so we can learn about anon2696444391 this form influences the engagement :)" 7,64185,2019-11-15T11:35:38.217Z,11118,1,13,12,1,0,0,42.6,64178,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"@anon3708943593, would you like to choose 1-3 and post them on their own?" 8,64191,2019-11-15T11:44:34.886Z,11118,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,64185,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,I think it is ok for us to do this ourselves @anon1753543892 - they are summaries and not the exact words so it doesnt really make sense for the people interviewed to post it themselves... 9,64194,2019-11-15T11:48:19.802Z,11118,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,64191,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"OK, just, that they are worded in the first person and when people answer it would also be good if @anon3708943593 could see that directly, so it would be good if she could post those :)" 10,64195,2019-11-15T11:49:05.030Z,11118,0,13,12,1,0,0,37.6,64194,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"We can ping Corinne so she sees it, this in order to be mindful of everyone's time :)" 11,64198,2019-11-15T11:58:48.541Z,11118,2,13,12,1,0,0,47.6,61210,anon3708943593,anon3708943593,"Hi @anon3828707713 and @anon1753543892, Thanks for the pings. Just a quick question, to see if I understood correctly: You would like me to take some sections from my interview, and post them as threads on the Internet of Humans forum for people to engage with as that would be easier to parse than reading the full interview? If this is correct, I am happy to do so. But I do want to flag this convo for @anon2559300400 and @anon3379761435 as me starting a number of threads based on my interview while also being one of the three main ethnographic coders for the Internet of Humans project does raise some interesting methodological challenges. Not insurmountable, but just something to keep track of ;-) Kind regards, anon3708943593" 12,64202,2019-11-15T12:07:55.075Z,11118,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,64198,anon1753543892,anon3708943593,"@anon3708943593, that is exactly what I meant. Good point with your double role, but maybe that can event help us to understand anon2696444391 format/ length influences engagement :)" 13,64205,2019-11-15T12:11:51.670Z,11118,0,12,11,2,0,0,27.4,64198,anon3828707713,anon3708943593,"No @anon1753543892 - what I meant was that we have created 150-300 word articles summarising the contents of the interview with each person. And that we (I) will be posting them on the platform and on social media. So that people pressed for time can more easily engage in the conversation based on the main points we have drawn from the conversation with you. The people who want to go much deeper will be pointed to the original post." 14,64211,2019-11-15T12:23:12.776Z,11118,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,64205,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"ok, if you prefer it that way :). The summary will probably touch on many aspects again and not have the examples. Forgiving you opinion and feedback on one part of the topic I thought having those junks, that have personal details but are more focused on one aspect might be good. But maybe we can test something like that later on :)" 15,64218,2019-11-15T12:44:13.299Z,11118,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,64211,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,right now our issue is an overwhelming amount of information. We can go deeper in the workshop but now it is about simplifying to not scare people off. 16,67702,2019-12-18T14:17:15.110Z,11118,1,11,10,3,0,0,97.2,64178,anon1732761404,anon1753543892,"But I think the point of @anon3708943593 here is that the direct physical security (or right of possession) makes a big difference: we can do encryption, set passwords, do data minimization, and all these ""cyber-measures"" (that are someanon2696444391 immaterial), but at the end of the day what matters is who can enter your home, under what conditions and whether you can protect yourself? It someanon2696444391 draws my mind to the only Human Rights Consideration incorporated in an IETF RFC to date: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8492#section-8 And also to a different topic that is still insufficiently discussed in human rights communities, in particular, namely the State of Exception (masterfully, in my view, covered by Giorgio Agamben in his homonymous book of 2005)." 17,68016,2019-12-30T18:39:08.085Z,11118,1,9,8,1,1,0,26.8,67702,anon3203746736,anon1732761404,"[quote=""anon1732761404, post:16, topic:11118""] State of Exception [/quote] You are spot on with this. The US involvement in the Vietnam War was essentially built around a state of exception stemming from the ""Gulf of Tonkin"" incident, which we now know was faked in order to win Congressional approval, which importantly was not a declaration of war, but a blank check to the executive/military branch..To me the whole ""greatest generation"" thing about my parents WWII generation has to have an asterisk because they sent us to Vietnam, which I submit is the central tragedy of my now 68 year old lifetime. And the US has never aanon2863106368ed for it and indeed we are repeating much of it, this time in the desert. Gee, that sounds a lot like another faked incident: pitching Saddam's ""weapons of mass destruction"" as the basis for invading Iraq. Also 9-11 led directly to the ""Patriot Act"" which is by itself another state of exception in that it perpetually renews a greatly empowered surveillance state and much diminished accountability." 18,68017,2019-12-30T18:45:10.616Z,11118,0,8,7,1,0,0,36.6,68016,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Crazy thought: a state of exception for the climate. Speaking of WWII, I do marvel at the level of cooperation on both sides of that conflict actually. Today there is no such unity and there are effectively right now no world leaders who aren't making things worse. I make some exceptions to several EU leaders who are trying to do the right thing more or less. Contrast that with Trump, Putin, China, India, Brazil.." 1,67996,2019-12-29T18:42:51.684Z,12272,0,18,17,10,0,0,173.6,67996,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"# Hello dear NGI community! *Meeting with friends and family in person during the holidays has made me thankful for the level of contact and lifestyle inclusiveness digital communication and tools are already enabling, but also anon2696444391 many layers of human interaction keep left out or anon2696444391 misinformation or adds can influence the opinions of some people we thought we know or what we find under the Christmas tree.* There is so much potential for positive empowerment of human relationships and development, yet also danger for misuse and hurt in interconnected digital rooms and systems. **Thank you for sharing your thoughts and ideas this year!** The NGI discussion on the Edgryders Platform officially started in spring 2019. One of the most popular early discussions was started with a short but very relevant post by our own @anon3203746736 and the question: ""What is to be done about ad-based internet economy?"" https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-is-to-be-done-about-the-ad-based-internet-economy/9821 We picked up two great fellows, @anon3086952555 and @anon2682865457, who initialised two of the most popular discussions: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-radically-new-internet-a-study-on-p2p-protocols-and-mesh-networks/9802 and https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-we-put-humans-citizens-first-in-our-smart-city-policies/9878 Another discussion that gathered a lot of interest was this one by @anon1608948641: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/social-media-is-broken-lets-do-better/10017 Somewhere along the way, we asked ourselves and you to reflect on what this platform is and can be in truly collective fashion: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/why-to-edgeryder/10385 **We organised an international festival with you guys in less than 5 months from conception to more than 15 events in 9 countries realised between the 19th an 29th of November by amazing and engaged community members**. A thousand thanks to them and their local helpers and especially to our own @anon3828707713 for conceiving and realising not only the whole festival but also [one](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326) of the events! You can find links to all of the original festival posts linked on the minisite created for the festival: https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/ A post linking all the reports of the different events will follow soon. Some great new members have joined us in through the festival and we got some great interviews from @anon2594087572: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/can-tech-design-for-survivors-anon2696444391-sex-violence-and-power-are-encoded-into-the-design-and-implementation-of-data-ai-driven-sexual-misconduct-reporting-systems/11193 And directly after and in reaction to the topics and discussions of their [events](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-berlin/10769) @anon3554387720 started a great initiative in which @anon3747875924 and @anon2860100070 and many more have joined to develop a collective intelligence incubator: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/applying-for-the-h2020-collective-intelligence-call-looking-for-operational-partners-and-collaborators/11974 On the topic of collective intelligence, all of us here on the platform are part of the collective NGI research project using Edgeryders Semantic Social Network Analysis. Our amazing ethnographer's team has provided us with the first preliminary insights from analysing your fascinating contributions: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/ngi-ethnography-preliminary-results-for-community-members/11325 The insights from this preliminary report, our discussions for anon2696444391 to increase the number of personal stories, examples and viewpoints in discussion for deeper engagement and the conversation following @anon3005461236 [event on Open Source Culture.](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881/133) have motivated us to start a new experiment in this new year. We want to try out to add a ""chat"" to the platform. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-ngi-chat/12273 We will start doing so simply with a chat topic which will be pinned to the top of the NGI category and which we will try to use like a chat in which you can just share a few words or a meme if you feel like it and hopefully get a quick reaction. We are discussing the topic in [the linked thread.](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/chat-rooms-after-events/11997) And to end this retrospective one last link from the festival, combining past and future in the super interesting SciFi Economics event which is connected to many intriguing sci(fi) conversations on the platform: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-science-fiction-economics-lab-brussels-november-11th/10794 # # Happy New Year: " 1,64251,2019-11-15T14:18:33.689Z,11559,0,17,16,11,0,0,103.4,64251,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"Hi all, I have been asked to introduce myself :slight_smile: and I will add below the short bio that I use for events. I love working for the decentralization/distribution of power, and do research about it. Recently I have gotten more and more involved with the DGOV Foundation and I am researching collective decision making matters. Hope to get some 'friends' over here. Warm regards, Liliana. Standard short bio: Liliana Carrillo is an international public speaker, TEDx speaker, computer science engineer with a masters diploma in artificial intelligence, distributed systems and business, and background in education and social work. Ambassador of several blockchain, post-blockchain and artificial intelligence projects related to tech for social good/impact. Advocating for GDPR-complaint systems by design, agent/user/human centric, and working in the creation of more resilient systems. Passionate about the decentralization of power, and anon2696444391 to better decide collectively, collective decision making. Facilitating self-empowerment as a way to upgrade our collective intelligence. Transforming education/work/business to focus on individual talents, and sum them to collective talents. Her personal mission is the awareness creation of methodologies and technologies that can enable our collective intelligence, the sense of co-responsibility in our communities, and upgrading our society for more peace. To build a better future with prosperity for all Liliana has chosen to work/play with/for kids, and work/play with/for high tech." 2,64392,2019-11-17T09:29:44.678Z,11559,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,64251,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"Hello @anon2860100070, Thank you very much for your introduction! We are lucky to have a community with interesting people :). Also great to have you at the AI workshop! Looking forward to hearing what ideas and discussion you and the other participants develop from there!" 3,64394,2019-11-17T11:36:17.457Z,11559,1,13,12,1,1,0,27.6,64392,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:2, topic:11559""] AI workshop [/quote] Hi @anon1753543892, this community is full of interesting people! I am happy to have landed here thanks for Fil. Regarding the workshop, what is the program? should I send your a photo as speaker? Fil asked me to speak but I am not sure if that is at the end happening. And I am not clear about what is happening on that day. Are there panels? talks? Warm regards, Liliana." 4,64397,2019-11-17T13:56:08.041Z,11559,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,64394,anon3828707713,anon2860100070,"Liliana hi, I am sending out the program tomorrow morning" 5,65607,2019-11-25T09:52:46.133Z,11559,1,8,7,2,0,0,16.6,64251,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"Ping @anon3554387720. @anon2860100070, after the Hackathon in Berlin, the group plans a very interesting proposal for a Collective Intelligence and AI Incubator. There is potentially some anon2373157426 interesting overlap here :). https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-berlin/10769" 6,65610,2019-11-25T10:17:15.802Z,11559,0,6,5,1,1,0,36.2,64397,anon2860100070,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:4, topic:11559""] program [/quote] Hi Nadia, it was a wonderful program! and experience! I am happy to have found Edgeryders <3 Liliana." 7,65707,2019-11-25T14:56:18.710Z,11559,0,7,6,1,1,0,6.4,65607,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:5, topic:11559""] There is potentially some anon2373157426 interesting overlap here :) [/quote] Thanks for tagging us, and connecting us :slight_smile:" 8,67910,2019-12-23T17:53:13.555Z,11559,0,7,6,1,0,0,36.4,64251,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,https://anon1577251828.eu/t/cooperation-at-scale/12239 9,67995,2019-12-29T17:11:49.773Z,11559,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,64251,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"Revisiting posts for the 2019 retrospective as well as Star Trek for reasons I have the urge to add this: ![giphy|500x250](upload://uyCwC3Do6Zj3Fp0olCutvb2CEPd.gif) to the title. ""How to balance the needs of the collective and individual?"" Spock sacrificing himself in the wrath of Kahn for the good of the many, only for everyone to come together to search for him in the next movie :). Balance is always important and hard... here we could add some more references from another scifi pop culture juggernaut, but I prefer star treck and think it offers more interesting perspectives. @anon2860100070, do you happen to be a treck head as well and if yes, what is your opinion on the presentation and handling of the borg or other hive-like species/systems in star trek or other scifi? Do you like/know a good example to ponder collective intelligence through? (potentially even to read or binch in the next 2 cold month?)" 1,62976,2019-11-04T21:27:36.596Z,11359,1,17,16,9,0,0,128.4,62976,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"Hi All, Just a quick intro to *prime the pump*. I'm an embedded engineer with nascent projects on the communications in the low bandwidth and 100 km range that feed into some of the ideas expressed by ssb. I'm still searching for the *sticky* technology that would make this work, and be simple enough to use. I'm also the occasional data analyst on ssb, measuring the growth of the network." 2,62981,2019-11-04T22:37:37.325Z,11359,1,16,15,1,1,0,28.2,62976,anon659222949,anon2868057530,"Hi Emelie, and welcome! By ssb, I suppose you mean Secure Scuttlebutt? I’m on those networks myself, though admittedly not very actively in the last couple of months. [quote=""anon2868057530, post:1, topic:11359""] I’m still searching for the *sticky* technology that would make this work [/quote] Could you say more about this?" 3,62984,2019-11-04T22:57:19.653Z,11359,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,62981,anon2868057530,anon659222949,"Hej @anon659222949 Yup, ssb as secure scuttlebutt. > I’m still searching for the *sticky* technology that would make this work > Could you say more about this? By sticky I mean that it can grow at a ß > 1, in the long-term. Much of the technology in the 100km rf range is anon2373157426 limiting that growth is less than 1, where ham radio exists. For example ham radio is a niche that requires expertise, and has a fairly flat user base. Using a crow-amsaa method ß is greater than 1, ssb meets some of these goals, but has a *last mile* problem, that requires the occasional internet for connectivity. " 4,62985,2019-11-04T23:32:30.563Z,11359,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,62976,anon659222949,anon2868057530,"I see. That’s fascinating. When I was in high school I had a short but passionate infatuation with picking up VLF signals with my computer sound card. I never thought of that in connection to SSB before but that’s certainly a cool thought. I’m curious, where does your interest in achieving long distance digital communication without an internet connection come from? Is it because of an instinct of trying to build resilient communication capacity, or more of a “because I can” sort of thing?" 5,63217,2019-11-06T18:13:01.090Z,11359,1,9,8,1,0,0,41.8,62976,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"> I’m curious, where does your interest in achieving long distance digital communication without an internet connection come from? Is it because of an instinct of trying to build resilient communication capacity, or more of a “because I can” sort of thing? @anon659222949 — Part of it is I routinely fall off the grid when doing my outdoor pursuits — I blink and there are no bars left on my iPhone; and while it is a first world problem for me; it is also a developing world problem. I was attracted to ssb from that angle; where the asynchronous point to point communication was the selling feature — and have learned to love the community also." 6,67263,2019-12-10T14:41:55.894Z,11359,1,6,5,1,0,0,41.2,63217,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"I've taken the first step and ordered wifi/BT/Lora radio pair for starting this project. The intent is to enable ssb syncing at distance; and alternatively possibly present a chat interface for the interested. As ssb has meshing at the higher network level (almost application…) the lower level radios do not have to mesh, but can simply be p2p or p2mp — and ssb will do the magic of sharing the content. From my previous explorations I have been able to manage to sync on a low bandwidth link by experimentation with a wireless router at 9600 bps." 7,67909,2019-12-23T17:30:14.924Z,11359,0,4,3,1,0,0,35.8,67263,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"Boards are in! :santa: :deer: :snowman_with_snow: " 1,60803,2019-10-07T12:53:54.543Z,11041,1,22,21,46,0,0,329.4,60803,anon3086952555,anon3086952555,"[date=2019-11-28 timezone=""Europe/Brussels"" timezones=""Europe/Berlin""] → [date=2019-11-28 timezone=""Europe/Brussels"" timezones=""Europe/Berlin""]
As part of the event ""Service Design in an Climate Emergency"" that will take place in Berlin on 28 Nov during the [Edgeryders festival](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/festival-program-overview/10731) hosted by @anon2616197748 and anon1251979254 Hing, I'm planning to contribute **a brief input on smart cities and their potential roles in fighting climate change - or vice versa, on the role that the fight against climate change should have on smart city planning and governance.** (So-called ""smart cities"" and anon2696444391 to make them better has been [the focus of my ER fellowship](/t/9878) research.) I think the best format would be a brief (maybe 20min?) input followed by an informal conversation. I'm looking for feedback: Does this sound interesting, what's missing, who'd be interested in having that conversation? Here's the framing/summary I have in mind: **Towards Carbon-Neutral Smart Cities** As we see a move towards connecting the urban space around the globe, so-called “smart cities” projects proliferate. While often problematic from concept to implementation, there is an opportunity to use this momentum to make our urban infrastructures work for everyone, including the planet. We propose that every smart city project needs to be aligned with the UN Sustainable Development Goals, human rights, and the simplified TAPS framework (Transparency, Accountability, Participation, Security). Furthermore, any smart city project must be carbon-neutral, or at the very least have a carbon footprint an order of magnitude smaller than the existing systems it replaces or augments.
# Frequently asked questions ### How do I get an invitation/ticket to this workshop? **Fill in this form: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/** _Please note: This event is bringing together people who are currently directly involved in building, researching, regulating, monetising and or providing meaningful input into the wider debate around the technologies in question. We want to ensure that every participant leaves the venue having presented and discussed their work with others who can provide meaningful input or connect them with opportunities to further their professional and or personal development. If this appeals to you, then we would love to have you join us. Just [create an anon1577251828 account](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login) and [introduce yourself to the community here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you)._ ### How is this event being organised? This event, and the festival it is part of, is coordinated on the anon1577251828 platform (where you are now) and co-curated through a series of community video calls. We have allocated a collaboratively managed budget for the festival and operate on a solidarity basis. Participants who need some financial support to organise or be able to participate in the festival are eligible provided they contribute towards making it a meaningful and generative experience for all - in the run up to, during and/or after the event. If you would like to join us but are unsure as to anon2696444391 to contribute, don't worry. Create an [anon1577251828 account](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login), then [tell us a bit about yourself here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you) and we will guide you along from there. I (@anon3086952555 ) am coordinating this event, with @anon2616197748 who organises a parallel event and the venue. ### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union's Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu
![Ngi logo](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png) ### Does getting involved mean I endorse the funders views or actions? No. What you are doing is contributing to an open consultation on the topic of anon2696444391 to build a next generation of internet infrastructure, technologies, business models etc that promotes the wellbeing of humans and the natural environment. The consultation methodology is designed in such a way as to allow for diversity of views, premises, disciplines, themes and contexts. We employ open notebook science principles and the results will be presented in the form of a research report accessible to everyone after the event. You can follow the process, review the methodology and open source tech we are using and engage directly with the research and coordination team here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/workspace ### What is the code of conduct? It is important to us that everyone in the room feels welcomed and safe; if you have any particular concerns or needs just send me a PM here on the platform or write to anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu . The Edgeryders online platform technology and activities are intended for people to cooperate within and across projects trying to build a better world. The word ""better"" has here a fairly broad range of meaning. These [Community Guidelines](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/netiquette/45) are here to help you understand what it means to be a member of Edgeryders. Don’t forget that your use of Edgeryders is subject to these Community Guidelines and our [Terms of Service](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/id/44). ### What happens with my data? You can read about our [Terms of Use and Privacy Policy here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/terms-of-use-and-privacy-policy/44). Also: * [Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016 on the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data, and repealing Directive 95/46/EC (General Data Protection Regulation) (Text with EEA relevance)](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.119.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:119:TOC) * [Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0046) * [Handbook on European Data Protection directive](http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Handbook_data_protection_ENG.pdf) * [European Commission website - Protection of personal data](http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/)" 2,60856,2019-10-07T21:34:13.168Z,11041,1,20,19,3,0,0,54.0,60803,anon3197437925,anon3086952555,"Well, to me ""smart city"" always sounds as something focused on what is administratively possible in the current socio-political environment. Which at least in Europe is not much right now. So when treating this topic, I prefer a fresh take: focusing on what is technologically possible instead, while breaking the rules. But I made my point already ([back here](/t/9878/8)), so no need to repeat it all." 3,60863,2019-10-08T06:03:36.420Z,11041,0,19,18,1,0,0,38.8,60803,anon3828707713,anon3086952555,ping @anon850704935 and @anon1753543892 and @anon2945747231 4,60865,2019-10-08T06:41:02.072Z,11041,1,17,16,2,0,0,33.4,60856,anon3086952555,anon3197437925,"Yup, understood. And I tend to agree, we need to zoom out and look at the bigger picture. I also think we need to make sure that the stuff that _does_ get built (or is being planned/discussed now) will implemented in the best/least bad way, and that the folks/orgs who decide have a better decision-making matrix that we can hold them accountable to." 5,60936,2019-10-08T15:33:39.856Z,11041,1,19,18,1,0,0,13.8,60865,anon3203746736,anon3086952555,How similar or dissimilar are smart city plans from each other? are they similar enough that the moniker 'smart city' should suffice in informing us as to what that truly means? Or is there a lot of variance and thus every city needs its own unique analysis? 6,60995,2019-10-09T10:43:30.316Z,11041,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,60803,anon3828707713,anon3086952555,"Hey Peter, So I have thought about anon2696444391 we can involve more people in contributing to developing this session (and the broader conversation). The simplest way is to plug into the distributed collaboration process through which the comms and community management crews are coordinating. I am following this process for [my workshop on Ai and Justice](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326) and it is working really well. 1. Update your event description above with the following: * Add a question that you want to answer through the session * Add an Faq Section (you can copy paste the one on my workshop description) * Add a description of the format. if you can make it a bit interactive or identify a specific methodology you will be using that's great. _Feel free to ask if you need help with this_ 2. Make it easy for us to promote it: * Give @anon1753543892 photos + statements/quotes she can use to customise design for a flyer and for a header for this event. 3. See what you think of this approach to one on one outreach for getting good input to help you develop the session, and the broader discussion you wish to build around the topics of your fellowship: * You send emails with to people you think can contribute to this discussion with personalised invitation using content from the one I forwarded you as a template/model * If they agree you can forward them to a member of Edgeryders staff (@anon2945747231 for now) who then does the interview & transcribes content, and helps them to get on platform. You would need to agree with her on what questions you would like to ask... 3. Read the articles posted by the contributers and write a summary. Perhaps you can also draw help from the data analysis team to make visualisations that can help you synthesise what is there and share it back with a nice visual graph. If this is something you want to explore, the person to talk to is @anon2559300400. What do you think, works?" 7,61108,2019-10-10T11:31:40.840Z,11041,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,60936,anon3086952555,anon3203746736,"That's an excellent question. The two-part answer is: * In the strict sense of the words, they don't differ as much: They cover a lot of ground, but all with the same underlying DNA, so to speak. It's an industry term, heavily originated in the early IBM thinking in that space, and later also heavily influenced by the DNA of the other global enterprises that push the term (global supply chain logistics; network operators; data analytics) so that informs the approach a lot. * In the broader sense of the word, which I very much prefer (let's reclaim and transform that term!) it could be anything that adds connectivity in public space/urban infrastructure, including bottom-up or decentralized approaches." 8,61176,2019-10-11T11:31:03.637Z,11041,1,13,12,1,1,0,27.6,60803,anon3708943593,anon3086952555,"[quote=""anon3086952555, post:1, topic:11041""] TAPS framework [/quote] Hiya, can you tell me a anon2488317424 bit more about the TAPS framework and the sector it comes from? Kind regards, anon3708943593" 9,61303,2019-10-14T10:27:21.986Z,11041,1,13,12,2,0,0,47.6,60803,anon3828707713,anon3086952555,"In case your need some data sets for the event I found nice repository of Data for Environmental Intelligence: A mega list of Earth System Datasets covering earth observations, climate, water, forests, biodiversity, ecology, protected areas, natural hazards, marine and the tracking of UN's Sustainable Development Goals https://github.com/rockita/Environmental_Intelligence" 10,61346,2019-10-14T17:18:17.129Z,11041,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,60803,anon1753543892,anon3086952555,"@anon3086952555, I added the FAQ that needs to be added to all the festival posts. Could you change this to a description from a proposal?" 11,61424,2019-10-15T13:15:11.455Z,11041,0,13,12,2,0,0,57.6,61176,anon3086952555,anon3708943593,"Hi @anon3708943593, it's a framework I've started working on developing in a _very_ early stage to think through aspects like transparency, accountability, privacy, security (hence the acronym). It yet needs to be fleshed out, but I hope to turn it into a simple tool to evaluate smart city proposals against. Basically: Would project X increase (or at the very least not decrease) those four aspects? If it wouldn't, then back to the drawing board." 12,67866,2019-12-21T19:57:05.343Z,11041,0,10,9,2,0,0,57.0,61303,anon1732761404,anon3828707713,"Wow! https://www.europeandataportal.eu/data/datasets?locale=en&page=1 Looking through the European data sets it's even interesting which countries have more data sets. I wonder if the data sets or similar enough that they can be easily compared across border....." 1,66932,2019-12-04T22:39:54.064Z,12109,1,13,12,16,0,0,162.6,66932,anon2616197748,anon2616197748,"_Okay folks, I said I'd write something [in the follow up post after the workshop][] myself to encourage others. I'll link to a editable wiki page, with some resources we found, so others can add to it too. It should be at the bottom of this post._ [in the follow up post after the workshop]: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/further-information-about-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-public/11966/2?u=anon2616197748 ### What was key question you came to the workshop with? My main questions was one of anon2696444391 well developed the conversation in the Berlin service design scene was when it came to talking about what I see as the existential challenge of our time - the climate crisis. I wanted to see if we there was sufficient awareness and knowledge to move past the sense of learned helplessness, and abdication of responsibility I see in so many technical communities, where people say _""I'm just a designer, I design what the client asks for""_ or _""I'm just a developer, I only buld what I'm told to""_. ### What was the key takeaway from the day? My key insight was that while the conversation has a long way to go, and service design as a discipline isn't as well established as other parts of the world, there's at least interest, and will to develop it. While some attendees did get stuck on some exercises when trying to think through stategies to address the problems blocking tangible action, there were enough ideas in the room, to end up with some useful things I could try to help me frame a problem differently. It was also good to acknowledge that because many of the problems around climate are systemic, the user centred design of many tools we use end up getting in the way of us understanding the problem. I found [this piece by Cassie Robinson about the shortcomings of user centred design][ucd] useful when discussing this during the workshop [ucd]: https://medium.com/doteveryone/putting-users-first-is-not-the-answer-to-everything-dd05b9f11b5 I left knowing a bunch of things I didn't know when I walked into the workshop room. ### What do you see as the single largest challenge to designing for climate in industry? The key challenge I see is people feeling they have the (social) license to talk about the impacts of their work, and not being equipped to have discussions around this. In my view, so many of the problems related to climate feel like they rely on people being prepared to say _""I'm not comfortable with the consequences of doing that""_. I think without people in senior positions create this culture where more junior staff feel supported, I think we'll end up the sad scenario where people continue to build services that end up pushing us closer to a economic and ecosystem collapse - the difference being that they know anon2696444391 far from sustainable these are, and still build them, but just feel _terrible_ about doing so, rather than changing their behaviour. With that in mind, I think some of the [Consequence Scanning exercises from Doteveryone][cs], are really interesting - while they're not aimed at climate problems explicitly, they do help us have the same kind of conversations, in a relatively safe structured format. [cs]: https://doteveryone.org.uk/project/consequence-scanning/ ### What single thing would you want to see support available for, to help you with designing services as if we were in a climate emergency? Support for professionals to develop this knowledge in the form of time for their own study, or an investment in training. I think this is necessary to help them build the capabilities to make informed decisions about what interventions they make when thinking through and designing services. ### If there was one thing you’d ask other practitioners to think about in your field after the workshop, what would it be? I think the key thing to think about that is just anon2696444391 we mistakenly act like there is no cost to inaction, (the is a very real cost to inaction, and it's not distant any more), I think the conversations we have with people younger than us will be much, _much_ more awkward if we do nothing than the awkward conversations we might have now towards the end of 2019 with our peers. We _have_ to get good at talking about climate, and while it's on us to educate ourselves, we don't need to wait til we're experts before we get to have opinions about this what what world we want to spend our professional time building. I found Mary Louise Heglar's article, [Home is always worth it][1] really good for helping me realise this. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-resources/12110 [1]: https://medium.com/@anon" 2,67084,2019-12-06T14:41:37.122Z,12109,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,66932,anon1753543892,anon2616197748,"@anon2616197748, thank you for this amazing write up! Also, have a look at this call from the science gallery: https://opencall.sciencegallery.com/design?utm_source=Network+Email+Alerts&utm_campaign=c3e05d6d1b-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_05_07_04_08_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_0348a84edd-c3e05d6d1b-452633829 > "" Design makes worlds. It directs the traffic of humanity through the creation of cultural, social, and material space. But do we feel empowered to direct? To design? > > Most moments of our existence are touched by design. We all sketch, we fashion trial balloons, we tinker with thoughts and concepts, we revise, we prototype, we analyze and critique, and we build. And then build again. > > Design intersects with science and art. We design experiments for research, scientific visualizations, and genetic models. We design performances, texts, and communication. We design gardens, houses, and cities. We create small and large. We find beauty in experience and efficiency. > > Design often mimics the intricate and perfect connections of healthy biological systems that nurture life. Yet design can also create destruction and chaos, or limit our participation and humanity. How might we explore this fantastic and perilous labyrinth of connections and implications bound up with art, science, and design? > > **The open call is an invitation to explore the world of design and its intersection with art and science. We invite proposals that address a wide range of subjects and themes, including the following:** > > ## **POTENTIAL SUBTOPICS AND THEMES** > > * What would a world without design be like? > * How might design influence our vision and creative process? Our desires? Our identities and the identities of the world? > * How could biodesign restructure, improve, and restore our lives, or damage and destroy them? > * What might we learn from the ways that artists structure their studios, and the ways that scientists lay out equipment and material in their labs? > * Could we design ways to have our consciousness and cognitive acts leave traces beyond the death of our body? > * How does design expertise interact with a participatory design process? How can we design spaces where experts and non-experts build together? > * Could we create a participatory process for designing the future? > * How might design conjure up a beautiful, eerie, exciting, or creepy anticipation of the future? > * How might we think about vernacular design? > * What is the past and future of the relationship between nature, biology, and design? > * How does design direct intentions? > * How can we deal with the fact that design is both magical and dangerous? > * How could design not suppress the chaotic, unexpected, improbable, and disruptive? > * How might we design spaces and communities for highly mobile geographically nomadic groups of people? > * How could we address the trauma of digital data and selves becoming commodified, transacted, and controlled and suppressed? > * Could design guide a desirable transformation of society toward an equitable sustainable state? > * How do the designs of our technologies reflect or challenge our biases? > > ## **SEND US YOUR PROPOSAL TO BE IN THIS EXHIBITION!** > > Experimentation, provocation and research are at the heart of SGD’s values and programs. This exhibition will explore the practice and concept of design through the lens of artists, psychologists, storytellers, digital gamers, molecular biologists, performers, neuroscientists, designers, computer scientists, nurses, engineers, musicians, mathematicians, architects, and young people. The list of possibilities is endless. > > Your proposal could be a new or existing artwork, performance, workshop, digital intervention, research project, virtual reality game, or other activity. We strongly recommend that you keep our target audience of young people aged 15-25 years in mind and consider including interactive or participatory elements. We would love humor to feature in the exhibition. Check out our tips on what makes a good open call submission."" This might be interesting for anon2373157426 a few of your workshop participants or even your workshop outcomes, or the workshop itself?" 3,67100,2019-12-06T17:58:53.792Z,12109,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,66932,anon2868057530,anon2616197748,@anon2616197748 — I as curious anon2696444391 well the consequence scanning went with the session — from a former life we would typically do risk instead; which was defined as Risk = Consequence * Likelihood since not *every* consequence has the same likelihood of occurring — it's easier to rank the risk appropriately. 4,67855,2019-12-21T16:01:21.182Z,12109,0,8,7,1,1,0,51.6,66932,anon2860100070,anon2616197748,"[quote=""anon2616197748, post:1, topic:12109""] I wanted to see if we there was sufficient awareness and knowledge to move past the sense of learned helplessness, and abdication of responsibility I see in so many technical communities, where people say *“I’m just a designer, I design what the client asks for”* or *“I’m just a developer, I only buld what I’m told to”* . [/quote] I connect with you on this sentence! And by organizing events I wish to activate my community. I think that by starting to move ourselves, we will surely inspire others. Well done! Keep the conversation on going." 1,50534,2019-02-03T09:37:34.580Z,9451,1,53,52,310,0,0,1717.6,50534,anon3379761435,anon3379761435," *Mainland Italy as see from the headquarters of Fondazione Horcynus Orca* I am just back from a seminar on technology policies to improve social justice and reduce inequalities. The seminar took place in Messina, on the northeast tip of Sicily: mainland Italy was just three kilometers away, looming across the strait. It was interesting in and of itself, and it ties back nicely onto our work on the [Next Generation Internet](https://www.ngi.eu), which is just starting now. But what was most interesting was the place that hosted us, [Fondazione Horcynus Orca](http://www.fdcmessina.org/index.php/pag-sezione/fondazione-horcynus-orca/). The place felt... utopian. Built around the ruins of a 1st-century BCE Roman watchtower/temple, maintained by ex-inmates of the local mental asylum, meeting place of people in several businesses, from a local energy company to a beer manufacturer. Something was going on. So I asked. It turns out Messina hosts an ""advanced social district"" (distretto sociale avanzato). In Italian, ""district"" carries the idea of production; a tightly integrated network of independent companies, competing on some arenas, cooperating in others ([industrial district](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_district)), of which Horcynus Orca is only a piece, specializing in the arts. As I spoke to Gaetano Giunta, a physicist and member of the small group of friends who quit their jobs to start it all in the late 1990s, I heard him mention values similar to Edgeryders's own: freedom, happiness, beauty. Business and commerce are the weapon of choice, the main path that leads to being able to uphold them sustainably. I am only starting to study the district's fascinating history and organizational architecture, so I will not talk about this now. But I do want to note an investment model mentioned by Gaetano that struck me as super-clever. In 2010, activity in Messina had reached critical mass. Gaetano and his group were able to attract a largish investment, that went into the startup capital of an Italian social economy vehicle called a [community foundation](http://www.fdcmessina.org) (fondazione di comunità). At that point, they had the problem of investing the money so that this capital would result in a revenue stream for the new foundation to do its job. They did not want to invest in financial assets, as they thought this would betray their mission of developing the local social economy. What could they do? As they studied the problem, they realized that Italy had launched a plan of incentives to build up capacity in renewable energy generation. This was, in fact, the Italian implementation of a EU program called [feed-in tariffs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_tariff). Such program promised a long-term (20 years) subsidy to anyone installing solar panels or wind turbines. So, they reached out to the community, and offered to partner up with basically everybody who asked: schools, hospitals, companies, small coops of households. Each partner would receive and anon3983078393 a cluster of solar panels. The Foundation paid for the installation, and even let the partners keep the energy, to use or sell back to the grid. The Foundation itself gets to keep the subsidy. They ended up installing 2 MW of capacity. For doing all this, they spun off what they call an ESCO (Energy Social Company) called [Solidarity and Energy](http://www.fdcmessina.org/index.php/pag-sezione/esco/). The ESCO then proceeded to use the foothold gained in renewables to further green the local economy, by pushing for increasing the energy efficiency of the housing stocks, and even inventing [solar panels based on organic materials](http://www.fdcmessina.org/index.php/pag-sezione/fotovoltaico-organico-e-welfare-di-comunita/), like discarded oranges (!). They are low-efficiency, but super-cheap, and they come in colors (oranges pulp is bright red in Sicily!), so they have a lot of potential whenever designers are involved. Now, this is a *very* elegant move. In one go, they greened the economy; created a new local player who would further green it long-term; provided a tangible benefit for the local community; bought themselves a lot of goodwill; *and* turned a lump of ""dead"" money into a 20-years guaranteed revenue stream. Finance, as it should be! My intention is now to spend a week or so in Messina, and really understand anon2696444391 they do it, also as inspiration for [the future Reef](/t/6239). I would love to share this experience with @anon294806887, @anon3828707713, @anon3197437925, @anon3819120576, @anon I think I can swing hospitality for a few people, if I ask nicely and if we are ready to give back, for example organizing a small event on new co-operativism and post-capitalist enterprise. Also, they eat like gods :smile: . Is anyone interested?" 2,50536,2019-02-03T10:10:56.245Z,9451,1,41,40,3,0,0,118.2,50534,anon126275167,anon3379761435,"How amazing to discover a working example of a genuinely innovative model for developing local economies! I've just completed an MRes (nominally in Architecture) in which my actual research went into developing a way of mapping and designing local economies to better understand productive v extractive models, addressing a specific current 'regeneration' scheme in my neighbourhood (in South London) as a real-world case-study. Currently researching the best place to undertake a PhD on 'post-entrepreneurial innovation' at local/city/regional scale. Like the idea of contributing to an event. And love food! I can be reached at steve@anon" 3,50537,2019-02-03T10:22:34.552Z,9451,1,37,36,2,0,0,22.4,50536,anon3379761435,anon126275167,"Noted, @anon126275167. Can you say a bit more about your work? Any link anywhere? And for the logistics, stay tuned, I will be sharing news here as they come." 4,50540,2019-02-03T10:41:17.100Z,9451,0,36,35,1,0,0,72.2,50534,anon294806887,anon3379761435,"Wow, thanks for sharing this, it adds so nicely to our great case studies to look up to! I have many questions - but one is: anon2696444391 does founding this new market and company (Solidarity and Energy) map onto what people in the crowd were already doing, the skills they had, their aspirations? It's one thing to dream a way to contribute to the community and launch new socially minded activities, and it's another one to converge from what is possible (market gap, funding ops etc) towards what we as a group want/can pursue. This is what I feel we dont have yet: ER atm is research and community building on x,y,z. We are missing the conceptual partner who wants to do one thing well - which is essentially another company i.e. ""greening"", with mobilizing all knowledge and people towards just that. The dreamer and the expert/doer. This will be interesting because it means forking as a company? Nothing new in this, but I wonder if that is the gap which we still need to fill in the conceptual phase already. Of course, sign me up for a Messina scouting trip!!" 5,50546,2019-02-03T16:47:31.260Z,9451,0,34,33,1,1,0,56.8,50534,anon928544562,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:9451""] of which Horcynus Orca is only a piece, specializing in the arts. [/quote] Very interested in this! Will look forward to hearing results of your future research and reflection." 6,50553,2019-02-03T21:00:58.849Z,9451,1,31,30,1,0,0,61.2,50534,anon3556768308,anon3379761435,Very interesting. When were you imagining for a group visit? And thanks for the tag! 7,50554,2019-02-03T21:03:19.725Z,9451,0,32,31,1,0,0,56.4,50534,anon1282718490,anon3379761435,"Nice one, thanks for the ping @anon3379761435 -- if you're thinking mid-March perhaps we could swing it as Nati and I land in Modena on March 5th for a CivicWise gathering." 8,50555,2019-02-03T21:34:07.894Z,9451,0,31,30,1,1,0,11.2,50553,anon3379761435,anon3556768308,"[quote=""anon3556768308, post:6, topic:9451""] When were you imagining for a group visit? [/quote] Not sure... I have written to Gaetano today. Late March? April? But a lot depends on them." 9,50570,2019-02-04T11:56:45.756Z,9451,0,31,30,2,0,0,16.2,50534,anon2794261635,anon3379761435,So interesting! Willing to collaborate on this @anon3379761435 10,50593,2019-02-04T18:20:30.803Z,9451,0,30,29,1,0,0,71.0,50537,anon126275167,anon3379761435,"Cheers, Alberto. Here's a short abstract: One prominent product of the intersection of post-neoliberal economics and urbanism is a renewed focus on local economies, a development that spans theory, practical projects and alternative government policy. Yet it is almost impossible to find a satisfactory definition of what a local economy is; anon2696444391 it is defined or delineated; or anon2696444391 it might be modelled. Much of the discourse that exists turns out, on examination, to be not ‘economic’ at all, but a proxy for other concepts such as community, a process that weakens and distracts attention from the actual understanding and planning of robust, sustainable local economies. This dissertation adapts a model for mapping capital flows from the work of the critical geographer David Harvey and applies it to the highly contested plan for ‘redeveloping’ the Elephant and Castle Shopping Centre in south London. Mapping the developers’ proposals in this way demonstrates the almost wholly extractive nature of the local economy that the scheme would produce. The paper then uses the same technique to design an alternative scheme that potentially creates a genuinely ‘local’ economy. Whilst - taken as a whole - this option is admittedly utopian, it is nevertheless constructed from a number of actually existing alternative models of ownership, collaborative and cooperative enterprise, re-municipalisation and so forth that are already happening across a range of cities and towns in the UK, Europe and beyond. and the full dissertation (if you have the time to read 10K words?) is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12rwDFKxhhMglXvqajjiXZbNy4eC1GPti/view?usp=sharing" 11,50594,2019-02-04T20:08:47.013Z,9451,0,30,29,1,0,0,11.0,50534,anon3819120576,anon3379761435,"Thanks @anon3379761435 Yes, definite interest from me too. Subject of course to timing (I could not make early April)." 12,50905,2019-02-16T09:25:47.869Z,9451,1,26,25,1,0,0,75.2,50534,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Update to all: I received an email from Gorka Espiau, a guy I know who is working in the Mondragon space. They are considering supporting a gathering of post-capitalist enterprises, probably in Bilbao, probably in June-July 2019. If interested, stay tuned. Gaetano is also very positive towards the trip to Messina. I am looking at May or June right now, which is a great time of the year to be in Sicily!" 13,51010,2019-02-21T09:45:01.554Z,9451,0,25,24,1,0,0,10.0,50534,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Yesterday our mail contained an advertisement for a company called Brusol, that seems to have exactly the same financing model of the Messina crowd. It has an additional precious info: > La Région de Bruxelles-Capitale octroie des certificats verts (CV) pour le courant ainsi généré. [...] L'Europe imposera une amende à la Région de Bruxelles-Capitale si elle n'atteint pas les objectifs climatiques de 2020. So, this is a kind of impact bond. The region will have to pay up if it does not meet its goals. By giving away energy for free, it is still making a gain as long as the cost of the free energy is lower than the fine. This is a mechanism we can exploit for the [new Reef](/t/8930 ). https://brusol.be/fr/" 14,51025,2019-02-21T20:04:13.601Z,9451,0,24,23,1,0,0,9.8,50905,anon294806887,anon3379761435,After 6th June works much better for me.. Sometime mid month. Fanon2945747231rs crossed. 15,51042,2019-02-22T15:51:22.561Z,9451,0,23,22,2,0,0,14.6,50534,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,I think we are all interested in this one! 16,67784,2019-12-20T11:08:44.261Z,9451,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,50534,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,Moved from #campfire to #earthos:the-reef. 1,65795,2019-11-26T07:44:25.686Z,11919,2,9,8,3,0,0,41.8,65795,anon3483539309,anon3483539309,"**Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at Internetdagarna?** Working at the Library with an interest in inclusion and introducing people outside of the digital society to the web. I am here for inspiration for anon2696444391 people see the future centered around the next high tech innovations of the web. **When did something related to the internet last make you hopefull or happy?** Free knowledge, free space for people to interact and talk to each. Make society more effective and simplify a lot of things. I work with a lot of elderly people that have anon2488317424 to none knowledge about the web. I like to see the joy of people that they have a way to talk to their family and friends in a totally different way that has been possible before. Seeing more people getting in touch. **When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** Breaches of integrity, big corporations that are perhaps a bit too crazy for their own good. People always find a way to abuse the internet for their own selfish needs. The more free the internet is the more ways people will have ways to abuse it. Which is a bit disturbing. **name:** anon3483539309" 2,65817,2019-11-26T10:17:35.619Z,11919,2,8,7,1,1,0,61.6,65795,anon659222949,anon3483539309,"Welcome to Edgeryders @anon3483539309! [quote=""anon3483539309, post:1, topic:11919""] I work with a lot of elderly people that have anon2488317424 to none knowledge about the web. I like to see the joy of people that they have a way to talk to their family and friends in a totally different way that has been possible before. Seeing more people getting in touch. [/quote] We had a lot of people at internetdagarna who came back to this about working with people to do very ""basic"" stuff online. I'm not sure anon2696444391 it's tied into the Next Generation Internet plan to make sure that the digital divide doesn't become even wider. I guess we need more @anon3005461236 in the world, although I feel there might have to be a consolidated effort." 3,65926,2019-11-26T19:41:52.616Z,11919,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,65817,anon3005461236,anon659222949,"Thanx @anon659222949 . I are alot of us really, so I totally agree with your about getting organized is what's needed. I'm not sure anon2696444391 to get organized." 4,65951,2019-11-26T22:10:23.801Z,11919,0,8,7,1,1,0,21.6,65817,anon3203746736,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon3483539309, post:1, topic:11919""] I work with a lot of elderly people that have anon2488317424 to none knowledge about the web. I like to see the joy of people that they have a way to talk to their family and friends in a totally different way that has been possible before. Seeing more people getting in touch. [/quote] You are doing noble work. For seniors who live far away from their grandchildren and kids, FaceTime is nothing short of a revelation. Hugi raises a good point about NGI and its priorities. I see a lot of focus on privacy, but anon2488317424 about basic accessibility and basic UI. One would think that UI design would be more settled in a way than it is now, but that is a kind of pipe dream I guess because it is too easy for a rank amateur to make a website. And all too often some smooth talking salesperson will sell a big institution on their design when it has not been vetted at all for good UI. I see a version of this almost every day. and speaking of seniors, I take care of my 94 year old mother and my mother-in-law is 90. To get them help and care and such, we have to use a lot of institutional websites. So many of them are just lousy designs. Often I feel sorry for the solo senior with poor eyesight and slight grasp of the underlying design having to navigate some of those sites.." 5,66049,2019-11-27T16:58:21.608Z,11919,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,65795,anon1753543892,anon3483539309,"@anon3483539309, just a quick reminder for the Edgeryders [Teaching Teachers Open Source workshop](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881). **The workshop takes place tomorrow:** 28:th November - 10:00 - 17:00+ Södra Hamnvägen 9 (Hus Blanon2066456771de, [Directions 1](https://goo.gl/maps/euAuAP2LDFBDrvb6A) here) Lunch included (nice and vegetarian) Would be a perfect fit for you!" 6,67108,2019-12-06T18:01:33.598Z,11919,1,7,6,1,0,0,56.4,65795,anon1732761404,anon3483539309,"> **When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** > > Breaches of integrity, big corporations that are perhaps a bit too crazy for their own good. > > People always find a way to abuse the internet for their own selfish needs. The more free the internet is the more ways people will have ways to abuse it. Which is a bit disturbing. This is in my view a bit too dystopian - there are many more examples of this not being the case than this being the case. And the internet has never been entirely ""free"" of traditions - e.g. Lessig or Boyle as far back as the 1990s. There was a discussion raised by Open Rights Group a few years ago about the relative political weakness of the ""web giants"" (Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Twitter and Apple). Namely, that we attribute to them enormous power because they are services that we and many other global citizens recognise as brand names, but that in fact they lose most of the policy fights they are drawn into. Telecommunications operators are in much the same situation. There are diminishingly few examples of ""internet"" generation entities winning either political battles or legal battles against more traditional entities (like copyright industries, security services, etc.), so in reality power is still where it has always been." 7,67510,2019-12-14T16:55:12.677Z,11919,1,7,6,1,0,0,26.4,67108,anon3203746736,anon1732761404,"An astute observation. Thank you. I think you are right about their relative lack of political power. Makes me wonder just now anon2696444391 much of that kind of power the auto industry had in its days of more singular dominance. At least here in the USA they consistently resisted safety,emission and fuel economy standards for decades and lost." 8,67701,2019-12-18T14:15:38.434Z,11919,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,67510,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,Maybe they just have not been in the game long enough and have not funneled enough money to the right people a la the pharma industry. 1,59244,2019-09-13T08:08:46.757Z,10769,0,47,46,208,0,0,1124.4,59244,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"Bayo Akomolafe said ""The Times are Urgent, Let Us Slow Down"". At the verge of global institutional collapse we invite you to design, craft and prototype with us social games for creating win-win outcomes in our world. We believe that the power of playing can give us profound perspectives on anon2696444391 to move forwards out of this global mess. What happens when the success of each party involved in the game depends on the success of every other party? How these games can inform us for designing post-entrepreneurial models, mutual care systems, and untapping on different forms of investing and producing generative value. How can we heal the fabric of our society? Whether it is a canvas, a card game, a software, a business model, a video-game, a party game, an art installation or a social experiment or whether you're joining alone or with your team you're welcome to spend two days crafting games and approaches that are simple, replicable, suitable for different context. ## YOU CAN COME ALONE OR WITH YOUR TEAM ## # AGENDA # SATURDAY �8.30 – we open door�s 9.00 – *we close doors* we gather for a small breakfast at 8.30 am and we start sharp at 9am 9.00—14 Deep Work we'll spend the morning of Saturday trying to step back from the problem-solving mind and seeing the full picture 14—15 Lunch break 15.30 Check-in getting back from lunch In the afternoon we'll dig into deep sharing and mixing of models, projects and approaches 16—17.45 First Round of Working Tables 17.45 tea break / stretch 18—19.30 Second Round of Working Tables 19.30 Break and Eating together 20 Cacao Cerimony and Celebration We'll celebrate in the night with an in-house party with cacao and nice vibes :) ~ SUNDAY ~ – we start at 11am harvesting the learnings from the previous day and continuing refining our experiments and helping each others to document and produce them. We'll have a moment to gather feedback from other people and then hacking on projects and incorporating feedback. We'll go on untill 17.30/18 Dinner on Sat night included! ➤ Supported by an online community of 5000 activists, developers & designers we want to help you to get to the next steps of building a working Minimum Viable Product, sustainable revenue, and getting more funding from the NGI program and beyond. This event is for you alone or you whole team and it is not only for building software. It's not a competition, but a collaboration. This is a community created event where we help each other with the expertise we can share to kickstart new projects into the world. A nice team of facilitators will guide you through a journey to connect with yourself, your team, your community and your project’s purpose. @anon3554387720 @anon1753543892 @anon2945747231 @anon850704935 @anon3828707713 ....and YOU!
# Frequently asked questions ### How do I get an invitation/ticket to this workshop? 1. Create an [anon1577251828.eu](http://anon1577251828.eu/) account 2. Tell us about your [proposed project here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/about-the-propose-a-hackathon-project-category/10956). 3. Look at the list below and pick one or more tasks that you can help with, and leave a comment here if there is a way for you to contribute. Very much appreciated! ### How is this event being organised? This event, and the festival it is part of, is coordinated on the anon1577251828 platform (where you are now) and co-curated through a series of community video calls. We have allocated a collaboratively managed budget for the festival and operate on a solidarity basis. Participants who need some financial support to organise or be able to participate in the festival are eligible provided they contribute towards making it a meaningful and generative experience for all - in the run up to, during and/or after the event. If you would like to join us but are unsure as to anon2696444391 to contribute, don’t worry. Create an [anon1577251828 account](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login), then [tell us a bit about yourself here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you) and we will guide you along from there. ### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png) ### Does getting involved mean I endorse the funders views or actions? No. What you are doing is contributing to an open consultation on the topic of anon2696444391 to build a next generation of internet infrastructure, technologies, business models etc that promotes the wellbeing of humans and the natural environment. The consultation methodology is designed in such a way as to allow for diversity of views, premises, disciplines, themes and contexts. We employ open notebook science principles and the results will be presented in the form of a research report accessible to everyone after the event. You can follow the process, review the methodology and open source tech we are using and engage directly with the research and coordination team here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/workspace ### What is the code of conduct? It is important to us that everyone in the room feels welcomed and safe; if you have any particular concerns or needs just send me a PM here on the platform or write to [anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu](mailto:anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu) . The Edgeryders online platform technology and activities are intended for people to cooperate within and across projects trying to build a better world. The word “better” has here a fairly broad range of meaning. These [Community Guidelines](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/netiquette/45) are here to help you understand what it means to be a member of Edgeryders. Don’t forget that your use of Edgeryders is subject to these Community Guidelines and our [Terms of Service](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/id/44). ### What happens with my data? You can read about our [Terms of Use and Privacy Policy here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/terms-of-use-and-privacy-policy/44). Also: * [Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016 on the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data, and repealing Directive 95/46/EC (General Data Protection Regulation) (Text with EEA relevance)](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.119.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:119:TOC) * [Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0046) * [Handbook on European Data Protection directive](http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Handbook_data_protection_ENG.pdf) * [European Commission website - Protection of personal data](http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/)" 2,59264,2019-09-13T22:26:09.266Z,10769,0,32,31,2,0,0,61.4,59244,anon659222949,anon3554387720,I will be there! Love this. I can talk about and demo SenseStack - the Edgeryders stack of collective intelligence software. 3,60156,2019-09-30T13:19:21.872Z,10769,1,33,32,1,0,0,16.6,59244,anon3828707713,anon3554387720,"Am a bit shy about it, but have an idea I would like to try building. Am not a developer, do UX though and have some experience building and managing a company :slight_smile: How ready-to-go does it need to be for me to include it in the hackathon?" 4,60167,2019-09-30T14:16:22.803Z,10769,0,31,30,2,0,0,16.2,60156,anon3554387720,anon3828707713,"🎉 Great news! Looking forward to hear about your idea :) I thought about it today and I think it really does not need to be at a certain stage at all. I mean the hackathon could also mean that you just do the designs, mock out everything and do user research with the people there. Another use case for the hackathon could be that you are a facilitator and wanna use the time to write down the concept for a new format you wanna try out/commercialise. It should not even necessarily be limited to build code." 5,62315,2019-10-25T21:12:19.624Z,10769,0,25,24,3,0,0,20.0,59244,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Hello @anon3554387720 and @anon850704935, here is the link to the files with the flyers for this event: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ChIZu_9jwqdzXdGixSqx-gDIq-jrs4Wi?usp=sharing" 6,63113,2019-11-05T17:23:16.843Z,10769,1,23,22,2,0,0,19.6,59244,anon1739435405,anon3554387720,"@anon3554387720 I think this post needs to have some tags added in order for the https://festival.anon1577251828.eu site to pick up the correct date. It is currently sanon2696444391ing over there as ""Date: TBC""." 7,63131,2019-11-06T06:49:38.112Z,10769,0,23,22,1,0,0,9.6,63113,anon3828707713,anon1739435405,"Hai Callum :slight_smile: Thanks for the heads up, added the tags. It now sanon2696444391s up as confirmed on the festival site." 8,63446,2019-11-08T09:18:19.454Z,10769,1,22,21,6,0,0,39.4,59244,anon3828707713,anon3554387720,"Hallo! Iam putting together this repository of materials that we can use to post on the event page and our anon1577251828 as well as our individual social media channels - to give would be participants a sense of what we are exploring. As well as entry point to join various relevant discussions already happening in different parts of the platform. I am updating it continuously but I thought it is good to post what is there already and add so we can start already... ## [EdgeRyders Hackathon for ethical solutions to unethical technology problems.](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-22-11-berlin/10769/5) ### 150 word description of the event in the form of an invitation to join us adapted for email * Copywriter adds it here ### A summary article, also not more than 150 -200 words combining the insights/overview and good quotes from theses sources: * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-we-put-humans-citizens-first-in-our-smart-city-policies/9878/14 * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/social-media-is-broken-lets-do-better/10017/7 * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-it-mean-to-make-a-human-centric-internet-and-who-is-doing-it/9569 * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/introducing-oliver-worldbrain-io-memex-and-storex-democratising-knowledge/10157 * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-the-participio-software-need-to-be-useful-for-artistic-co-creation/9191/8 ### 3 quote banners: Visual Materials here. * **Social Media is Broken - Let’s do better: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/social-media-is-broken-lets-do-better/10017/7** “If the platform caters to just one type of audience, and centers around a specific interest or topic, that informs the audience directly on anon2696444391 to behave. And people can lurk before participating, so they follow the existing examples. With an open and global platform, it is a lot harder to set these existing examples, because one does not know, with which subset the new member will interact first, nor with which topic. Good UX guides them, informs the newbies about the presets and their reasoning, and so on.” * **What does it mean to build a human centric internet and who is doing it? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-it-mean-to-make-a-human-centric-internet-and-who-is-doing-it/9569** "" The builders of Scuttlebutt started from the sort of human community they wanted to build : open to the underprivileged, solving basic social connectivity problems while staying away from surveillance capitalism, etc., *and on those basis they are making all their technical choices* , right down to the editor. As they do that, they discover and exploit sources of economic efficiency (“underprivileged audiences are less demanding, easier to serve with open source tech”). They ended up with a very different product from the ones they are seeking to replace, and with a *very* different community."" * **Introducing Oliver, [WorldBrain.io](http://worldbrain.io/), Memex and Storex, Democratising Knowledge: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/introducing-oliver-worldbrain-io-memex-and-storex-democratising-knowledge/10157)** “I am looking forward to learn about your use cases. We are right now in the phase of gathering 10-20 interested projects to identify the common needs for such an infrastructure.” * **[Living greener as therapy: anon2696444391 I stumbled upon plasticless, trees and diy protein](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/living-greener-as-therapy-anon2696444391-i-stumbled-upon-plasticless-trees-and-diy-protein/11396/3)** * **What does the Participo need to be useful for artistic co-creation? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-the-participio-software-need-to-be-useful-for-artistic-co-creation/9191/8** ### 3 Call-to-action Status updates: Visual Materials here. * Call to action + URL #1 * Call to action + URL #2 * Call to action + URL #3" 9,63448,2019-11-08T09:20:19.538Z,10769,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,63446,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,Ping @anon659222949 10,64242,2019-11-15T14:07:51.246Z,10769,0,16,15,9,0,0,48.2,59244,anon3828707713,anon3554387720,"Have updated the general registration form for the event @anon3554387720 so that people can automagically create an anon1577251828 account and create a post from it on the platform using single signup So if you want a simpler way to onboard people onto the platform & hackathon: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/" 11,65744,2019-11-25T17:37:38.125Z,10769,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,59244,anon2860100070,anon3554387720,"Hi @anon1753543892, thanks for sharing the link to this hackathon. I have seen the photo of the person you tagged, @anon3554387720, and I have met him before. We attended both the Enspiral Academy about Decentralized/Distributed Governance :slight_smile: How are things moving in Berlin?" 12,67600,2019-12-17T09:05:14.803Z,10769,0,9,8,2,0,0,26.8,59244,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Here are some reflections from the event by the participants: @anon3554387720 himself: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/oliver-experience-from-collabathon-in-berlin/11854 @anon3293944081 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/olivia-khan-reflections-from-prototyping-omni-win-games-berlin/11853 @anon1183630858 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/ideas-without-execution/11852 @anon2121837113 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackthon-harvest-interview-david-rohmer-by-peter-skead/11850 @anon https://anon1577251828.eu/t/steffen-gunther-reflecting-on-the-collaborathon/11847 @anon https://anon1577251828.eu/t/adam-pearson-collabathon-retroview/11857 @anon https://anon1577251828.eu/t/befriending-complexity-increasing-sovereignty/11845 @anon https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-harvest-interview-of-chihiro-by-david/11846 @anon301517243 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/collaborathon-harvest-interview-with-peter-skead-by-david-rohmer/11856 @anon https://anon1577251828.eu/t/collaborathon-listening-triad-response-by-euge/11855 @anon1717828514 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/collaborathons-of-the-future/11860 @anon https://anon1577251828.eu/t/collaborathon-listening-triad-response-by-othmane/11851 @anon https://anon1577251828.eu/t/win-emotional-clarity/11849 @anon https://anon1577251828.eu/t/jakob-the-one/11848" 1,64362,2019-11-16T16:01:01.532Z,11634,2,23,22,33,0,0,189.6,64362,anon1779866904,anon1779866904,"We had an interesting discussion on whether nuclear power should be used as integral part of decarbonisation effort [on Twitter](https://twitter.com/anon1779866904_/status/1194304285280022529). I wanted to raise this topic during debate actually but as my Internet was not working I wasn't able to check up-to-date statistics so only found them afterwards. I was especially inspired by the website https://www.electricitymap.org/ which allows you to monitor real-time CO2 intensity of energy production across the world and you can't really not notice that the countries with absolutely lowest CO2 intensity are those where nuclear is the at the base of the electric system. Tom Bauer's remark that France should be ashamed for not giving up on nuclear (quoting from memory) doesn't seem to make much sense if you really care about decarbonisation. " 2,64551,2019-11-18T17:24:31.269Z,11634,2,19,18,2,0,0,38.8,64362,anon3591841007,anon1779866904,"Yes, this is correct as a static fact. But is at most an argument for not giving priority to closing existing nuclear plants. Since about a year, even with standard economic criteria, for new investments renewables outclass nuclear. There are more documented texts, but I would have to search for them. The gist of this question is given in this link : [Nuclear energy too slow, too expensive to save climate: report](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-energy-nuclearpower/nuclear-energy-too-slow-too-expensive-to-save-climate-report-idUSKBN1W909J)" 3,64583,2019-11-18T20:51:30.498Z,11634,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,64551,anon1779866904,anon3591841007,"According to even anon2373157426 [optimistic models](https://kencaldeira.wordpress.com/2018/03/01/geophysical-constraints-on-the-reliability-of-solar-and-wind-power-in-the-united-states/), to go 80% renewable you need energy storage as big as the overall energy output of the country. Now, if we take Australia as an example, [their much celebrated Tesla battery farm](https://electrek.co/2018/09/24/tesla-powerpack-battery-australia-cost-revenue/) has capacity of 129 MWh. Total power output of Australia is 6 PJ or 1'700'000 MWh (Germany's total hydro power storage capacity is 3% of its energy production by the way). Can you propose any viable scenario for increasing the storage capacity by a factor of 12'000 in a few decades (and that's just one country!), especially that it requires increasing supply of rare earth metals required for both wind, solar and battery storage [by 3000-87'000%](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421518302726)? P.S. have you read [Limits to Growth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth)? What do you think about their predictions? Would you say that solar and wind industry is exempt from these models and still able to increase its output by thousands of percent?" 4,64584,2019-11-18T20:57:50.413Z,11634,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,64551,anon1779866904,anon3591841007,"Regarding the WNISR article: > “To protect the climate, we must abate the most carbon at the least cost and in the least time,” Schneider said. Talking is easy, but while Germany is closing nuclear reactors, their natural gas imports as **increasing fast**, not decreasing, apparently because they have no storage to replace it with renewables. And they won't have because of the physical supply constraints described above. This trend is precisely what I'm concerned about, not their emissions today or tomorrow. In 20-30 years we are going to use **more** fossil fuels than today **because** of the completely irrational shutting down of perfectly safe and operational nuclear reactors precisely at the time when we need them **most**. ![Screenshot_2019-11-17%20Germany%20Natural%20Gas%20Imports%20%5B1975%20-%202019%5D%20%5BData%20Charts%5D|690x413](upload://56xiFOBFzk8DpI6Iik0bZFkOIxr.png) And I think fossil fuel companies realise that very well and this is precisely why they are increasing investments into natural gas production. More than that, they are actually marketing natural gas as ""green fuel"" - and the society seems to be buying it! " 5,64591,2019-11-18T22:01:28.931Z,11634,1,17,16,1,0,0,43.4,64583,anon3591841007,anon1779866904,"Near the end your first link [Geophysical constraints on the reliability of solar and wind power in the United States](https://kencaldeira.wordpress.com/2018/03/01/geophysical-constraints-on-the-reliability-of-solar-and-wind-power-in-the-united-states/) says : ""All of these studies share common ground. They all indicate that lots more wind and solar power could be deployed today and this would reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Controversies about anon2696444391 to handle the end game should not overly influence our opening moves"" We are not near 80%. The relative strength of different sources evolve rapidely. No single type of source should reach 100%. At this moment, investing in renewables appears optimal." 6,64599,2019-11-18T23:24:14.931Z,11634,2,17,16,1,0,0,33.4,64591,anon1779866904,anon3591841007,"Certainly we can and should get more renewables, especially in countries like US or Poland (my country of origin), which are beyond any comparison. Future looks bright, not only with wind and solar, but also [ITER](https://www.iter.org/mach), which goes ""first plasma"" in 2025. The problem is the emissions over the next 20-30 years, which will decide the speed of the climate change. If you don't just cherry pick from the referenced articles, you will certainly see that we can't physically decarbonise to the levels and time frame required to stop climate change using just renewables, and activists who caused closure of existing nuclear plants actually did much more harm than good." 7,64648,2019-11-19T10:43:48.384Z,11634,0,14,13,1,1,0,37.8,64362,anon3379761435,anon1779866904,"[quote=""anon1779866904, post:33, topic:10794""] We had an interesting discussion on whether nuclear power should be used as integral part of decarbonisation effort [on Twitter](https://twitter.com/anon1779866904_/status/1194304285280022529). [/quote] Welcome, @anon1779866904! This is a relevant discussion. I am taking the liberty of moving it to its own thread within the Lab's forum. :slight_smile:" 8,64682,2019-11-19T13:23:39.456Z,11634,2,13,12,1,0,0,17.6,64599,anon1758400449,anon1779866904,"Hi, In my opinion closing nuclear in Germany was bad from a CO2 perspective, but sort of necessary politically. Public trust in the operators was low, and they messed up so bad that *the whole spectrum* of political parties dropped them. Had they been safe I am sure that Allianz or Munich Re or similar would have privately piped up and said they'll insure them for a competitive rate. Alas here we are. Even if we had a hefty CO2 tax - I don't think that would have saved them economically (esp. vs wind). I believe additional nails in the coffin were: - blunders and uncertainties around decommissioning and storage - Simulations of the economic knock on effects of a serious incident (+ the very high plausibility of one when looking at Japan's capabilities, committment, and track record). In effect such an event would end a good chunk of the agri industry's competitiveness, and had a chance to make a serious dent in other industries. - The direct cost in human lives would have been negligible (if you permit a bit of cynicism) - The long term costs to society were not modeled afaik Should Germany get back INTO fission when it becomes significantly safer? Maybe. Note that many of the power stations were already in extended lifetime. Would that incurr extra ""restart costs"". Maybe some, but afaik Grmany was already behind a good bit in tech, so we would've likely switched to French, Chinese, or did something German-Russian. But at that time people will be paying (likely significantly more than) the 90 bn projected for decommissioning. So I am skeptical a realistic case can be made, even when numbers would be for it. Fission aside, is there anything that can ""save us""? Fusion? In my opinion less chance to make a dent in the next 50-100 years than wind alone. I like fusion, I'm friends with some people working in the research, I live in a place that profits from ITER funding, I admire the anon2945747231nuity, etc. But even if ITER's granddaughter turns out to be perfect it will not deliver a constant source of power, but it will be pulsing. We're currently at 70s pulses, ITER MIGHT do 400s to 600s. Yes, that is planned so you can design demand around it - but so is wind, solar, and tide / water to a DEGREE and this is where come closer to the crucial point in my opinion: Of course you'll need to adapt economic activity to seasons and similar. This has been true for millions of years in every place in most critical activities, and was only not true in some places, at the height of the fossil fuel glut. Seaonality and internittency is the absolute norm. Always on at max is not anon2696444391 we'll be learning to live responsibly I'm afraid. Some points we can do with regard to climate (German example): - Switch from coal to gas capacity immediately (IMO keep coal as fallback, be transparent, diplomatic (Russia's neighbors) and EU-clever with the Russian suppliers) - DUH! - Fund some nuke r&d (decommissioning, have foot in door & help with promising concepts) - Make tgeoretical and legal framework for a supply side driven economy, incentives to manage (economic) activity with less constant power, ICT to the rescue! - very quietly start funding a diverse range of ""thought leaders"" to inform decision makers of plausible scenarios of what might happen if we start dumping sulphuric acid into the high atmosphere in an uncoordinated fashion (the most likely geo-engineering trick that people are going to pull out of the hat) - Review technical / building / transport standards with and eye towards CO2 optimization potential. Example: if you could use more wood for housing construction, growing a lot of forests would start making sense as a carbon sink. But the risk of fire is why we simply forbid a lot of it in building codes. We could step up efforts to research tech that makes such fires less common and less catastrophic. For example: a decent (usb-)cable tester, and a practice of having non-flammable material under or near shitty electronics, or old lithium batteries. - Research and scale potential large carbon sinks such as ""seaweed landfills"" that are likely to outperform trees with factor of more than 20. - Consider legal action on behalf of future generations vs decision makers who essentially halted buildout of wind power in Germany on essentially spurious grounds (What is going to happen if you quit nukes, then drop solar (you're welcome China!), then drop wind as well, and shield automotive? Nothing good.)" 9,64691,2019-11-19T14:12:44.414Z,11634,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,64599,anon1758400449,anon1779866904,"Oh, I forgot re emissions in the 20-30 year timeframe you mentioned: I believe that is a non-starter as even if you tried, you'd likely not be able to ramp up production of safe powerplants enough to get anywhere near the demand (unless you take pretty disruptive measures - and then safety (and opportunity cost) becomes a larger concern again). Just have a look at what timeframes currently are to build out capacities. Then you also have a few systemic issues that don't scale well: - lack of river capacity to cool the reactors - coordinated failure modes (heatwave knocks out not 20% but 80%, uranium suppliers not exactly geopolitically stable, critical infrastructure is currently in ""pants down mode"" when it comes to hybrid threats) - our track record of incident per MWh is not stunning (also consider the Cshernobyl happened *during* a safety exercise), what is going to happen to that stat if every dictator and their imbecile brother run half a dozen nukes (politically anon2696444391 are you going to convince them to quit when they fuck up, and not double down and weaponize?) - On a higher order level I am more than a bit concerned that 90% of the time pro-nuke arguments lead with what they want, and anon2696444391 easy things could be if people weren't so ""irrationally afraid"". If their opening statement was e.g. that of course reactors like the one at Yerevan were a digrace to the whole profession, and once these uncontained black sheep were sorted out, they stablished a robust culture of accountability, transparency, and common sense - then I'd listen a lot longer and with more interest. But with this near criminal lack of insight and self reflection you'd be wading into a horror sanon2696444391 if this is the way one would go about scaling up nuclear. Please note that I'm not referring to you personally here, we're both just small cogs with not that much influence on the larger currents. Please also note that we could very plausibly be wading into a huge horror scenario anyway, and a more or less reflected nuke industry might not make a big dent. In my book anon2696444391ever, a desperation and wishful thinking driven nuclear industry would very much hold the potential to turn a 500 year fuck-up (moderately good CO2 scenario) into a something approximately 100 times as bad and 100 as long. It is not an enticing prospect to lose not only the coasts, but also the rivers and essentially every other spot where historically human habitation worked well enough to get us through the rougher patches of human history. Trade that for what? So a few generations have electricity when they are sleeping, when otherwise there'd be some times where we could ""only"" satisfy 99.99% of our needs but perhaps not every every desire? You gotta be kidding me." 10,64757,2019-11-19T19:32:21.582Z,11634,1,13,12,1,2,0,12.6,64682,anon1779866904,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:8, topic:11634""] Some points we can do with regard to climate (German example): * Switch from coal to gas capacity immediately [/quote] That's a very good thing to ""do with regard to climate""... if you want a very warm climate. [quote=""anon1758400449, post:9, topic:11634""] lack of river capacity to cool the reactors [/quote] Oh, you can certainly come up with a number of creative excuses and FUD to convince people not to build nuclear - and then claim that ""it's too late to build nuclear"" - and this is anon2696444391 the Greenpeace business worked for the last 20 years. However, apparently the country that has the biggest potential for another nuclear screw up due to its political instability and culture of negligence - Russia - is heavily investing into nuclear power and doesn't care about your excuses at all. I must anon2696444391ever admit that the record of Russian nuclear industry after Chernobyl has been very good and I'm impressed by anon2696444391 innovative their designs are (including recent floating power plant). It's a kind of paradox that countries with the biggest potential to build the safest possible reactors in the world gave it up voluntarily only to remain surrounded by reactors built by... slightly less risk averse countries, to put that delicately. [quote=""anon1758400449, post:9, topic:11634""] our track record of incident per MWh is not stunning [/quote] Correct, ""not stunning"" is precisely what we want ([source](https://ourworldindata.org/what-is-the-safest-form-of-energy)). ![%5D|690x464](upload://lzbvLiZdpEDlDFiNHF4eoadJyWb.png) [quote=""anon1758400449, post:9, topic:11634""] what is going to happen to that stat if every dictator and their imbecile brother run half a dozen nukes [/quote] This may come as a surprise, but they already do and they specifically don't care about position of Greens, who for some reason prefer to chain themselves to railways in Żarnowiec (PL) rather than Kaliningrad (RU) or Minsk (BY), like a few hundreds of kilometers made any difference. [quote=""anon1758400449, post:8, topic:11634""] blunders and uncertainties around decommissioning and storage [/quote] Nuclear waste storage in one picture: ![Nuclear%20waste|690x411](upload://9bQ4s0KRZW23sIRH7kvivwWHUEA.png)" 11,64786,2019-11-19T21:39:52.770Z,11634,1,11,10,1,1,0,12.2,64682,anon1779866904,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:8, topic:11634""] decision makers who essentially halted buildout of wind power in Germany on essentially spurious grounds [/quote] Also, I'm now experiencing a genuine cognitive dissonance as I have been just recently talking to another person from Germany who said (on [SSB](https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25nG8hlPmd1gGOYoB91qLbyGf3V%2B3dTP0raJDq2aDVA6s%3D.sha256)): [quote] Germany is densely populated and politically divided into three federal levels (federal government, federal states, municipalities). All three levels need to be involved in decisions, all three levels are often politically different and this is often not easy for decision-making. (...) Germany should start to accelerate wind solar and water craft. (...) It’s not so that it’s technically impossible. People love to consume energy but are often unwilling to accept wind craft in the neighbourhood - even at the country side. Some years ago we had such a campaign in our village… [/quote] So essentially one of you says that it was the mythical ""decision makers"" who stalled wind power in Germany, the other - that regular proletaries didn't like the idea of wind farms in their backyard. Which brings us to yet another interesting contradiction - when lay people, scared to death by headlines like ""RISING TRITIUM COULD TRIGGER HUGE FUKUSHIMA BLASTS""[*] propagated by environmental frauds, are protesting against world's safest nuclear plants and storage, they're ""expressing justified anger"". When the same people are protesting against genuinely inconvenient wind farms, they are portrayed as some kind of inconsistent mob who ""love to consume energy but are often unwilling to accept wind craft"". Which is precisely anon2696444391 environmentalists have been fueling Trump-style denialism for the last few decades. [*] this is an actual headline from a 2013 article, where every single word is so [extremely dumb and false](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2019/09/12/its-really-ok-if-japan-dumps-radioactive-fukushima-water-into-the-ocean/) that it makes my teeth hurt" 12,64794,2019-11-20T00:52:29.779Z,11634,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,64786,anon1758400449,anon1779866904,"Now I don't know if you are genuinely interested in a constructive discussion addressing points I made. Or if you want to rattle off talking points you could have assumed I was well aware of, pointing out that two people from one country can have different opinions (which can [very much be resolved in a nuanced perspective](https://www.reddit.com/r/de/comments/dxrx3u/windkraftgegner_ihr_klagt_unsere_zukunft_kaputt/f7xsrqw?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x)), or call out [shitty headlines to shitty articles on shitty ""news"" channels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Rense#Jeff_Rense_Program_topics_and_guests). And I am supposed to debunk that because it someanon2696444391 is supposed to be representative of the moderate nuclear skeptic perspective? If we do want to go on, I'd like to see someone keeping count on evaded questions vs my concerns (effectively) addressed. *** Edit: I think I have an idea now regarding your interest in a constructive debate. > Also, I’m now experiencing a genuine cognitive dissonance as I have been just recently talking to another person from Germany who said (on [SSB](https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25nG8hlPmd1gGOYoB91qLbyGf3V%2B3dTP0raJDq2aDVA6s%3D.sha256)): So am I apparently. You've really said this and believe it? > German energy industry seems to understand this, which is the reason why they are resorting to ""safe"" coal and gas as primary energy sources. The Greens don't seem to have any clue about things like supply chain or energy balance, **and to be honest I don't see any difference between them and Trump-like ignorant deniers.** That is a pretty bold statement when you consider from a climate perspective the interests should be pretty aligned. After all we're arguing about Nuclear with a figure of merit (lower is better) of 16 and e.g. Wind with 12 **vs Coal with a 1000**. I am starting to suspect there is a different agenda at play here." 13,64798,2019-11-20T02:59:48.250Z,11634,5,11,10,2,1,0,37.2,64757,anon1758400449,anon1779866904,"[quote=""anon1779866904, post:10, topic:11634""] That’s a very good thing to “do with regard to climate”… if you want a very warm climate. [/quote] I am sure the folks at [UN FCCC](https://cdm.unfccc.int/search?q=natural+gas+power+station) would like to know your [maths](https://cdm.unfccc.int/filestorage/D/T/W/DTWNI8B3OXYVZ269RMKH5UA1GCQ0SP/EB90_repan04_ACM0025_vers.02.0.pdf?t=Q2l8cTE4dDhvfDD4e0OkDuEpWr88IDm9HDSI) for making a coal to gas transition look bad (unless the pipes leak live a sieve). More [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/good-no-maybe-so-the-european-investment-bank-no-more-financing-of-fossil-fuel-projects-after-2021-and-eur-1-trillion-sustainable-investment-for-eco-climate-action-projects/11533/7?u=anon1758400449). > Oh, you can certainly come up with a number of creative excuses and FUD to convince people not to build nuclear - and then claim that “it’s too late to build nuclear” Thank you, great way to keep a discussion civil. /s The problem for your argument is that even a cursory search would turn up an slew of articles that support my points, and add many more. I'll just take [this one](https://phys.org/news/2011-05-nuclear-power-world-energy.html) (EDIT: [Here's the best case I could find so far](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0124074) based on a Sweden/France extrapolation concluding 25-34 years) that comes up high in a search for ""How fast can nuclear power scale"". It doesn't even get to the ""fast"" point because the premise falls apart even before that (granted they make some assumption you maybe would not, such as ""conventional design, uranium fed, etc.). Btw this is based a team of credentialed academics publishing in the (peer reviewed) IEEE. Not some US talk radio BS. But I do you a favor and also now look at what the main pro-article is: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/anon2696444391-nuclear-power-can-stop-global-warming/ from 2013 - that looks promising, doesn't it? Sadly the writer is just a journalist, and the article is not peer reviewed or similar, but SA has a decent reputation. I'll just dump a few points into a block point here: >a) A big problem is cost. The construction of large nuclear power plants requires a lot of money to ensure safety and reliability. [...] b) It's a shame that the U.S. essentially stopped R&D on advanced nuclear power a few decades ago [...] ARPA–E itself, anon2696444391ever, has no program to develop alternative reactors because of the expense of proving out novel designs and the long timescales required to develop any of them. [...] c) But significant hurdles remain, not least the decades required for design, licensing and construction of even existing nuclear technologies, let alone novel ideas. That may mean advanced nuclear power cannot contribute much to [efforts to combat climate change](https://www.byliner.com/david-biello/stories/reactivating-nuclear-reactors-for-the-fight-against-climate-change) in the near term, **which leaves current reactor technology as the only short-term nuclear option**—and one that is infrequently employed at the global scale at present. [which would mean that the constraints in the article I cited previously would be very relevant] [...] d) Over the full lifetime of a nuclear power plant, that means greenhouse gas emissions of roughly [12 grams of CO2-equivalent per kilowatt-hour](http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/sustain_lca_nuclear.html) of electricity produced, the [same as wind](http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/sustain_lca_wind.html) turbines [IPCC says 16 for nukes vs 12 for wind and approx 1000 for coal]. Thorium reactors are nice (if they really work) and you're not going to have an easy time catching me bashing nuclear research. But here is ""your side"" side shooting down your argument. Even current designs need 6-12 years to be built. How are you ever going to scale this up in time? And even if you were, we'd be stuck with really expensive 20-40 year old technology that we'd all have to decommission at similar times (there may be benefits of scale there, but also immense risks). > Correct, “not stunning” is precisely what we want ([source](https://ourworldindata.org/what-is-the-safest-form-of-energy)). Please note that the point you are making is not referencing the right part of my argument. My point was NOT that I was concerned with loss of human life (in such a metric anyway). What I meant is if you scale up nuclear to replace coal and fill in for the other renewables, statistically (to date, there have been 11 nuclear accidents at the level of a full or partial core-melt) you end up with approximately one of these for every 2 months. I have argued it would be considerably worse if you take the socio-technicnologic competency in many less developed places into account. Your counter argument for this was to name the country that had the technological resources and developed a nuclear expertise to challenge the USA after WW2 and is ranked as very high human development index. What kind of argument is that? Pick a dozen from [this list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Medium_human_development) or belwo, and have a few on there that will get hit hard by climate change. For example Bangladesh would sure like to have some nukes. > This may come as a surprise Are you sure you're talking to the right person here? Do you want to continue to do so, then I'd get on with addressing a few points that I made and ease up on the snark. > Nuclear waste storage in one picture: That picture is indeed neat, and something I haven't got on my radar yet, thanks. A couple of points though: a) 20 MWh per capita per annum is already 30% too low today, by the time we hit 10 bn people it is likely to be even worse - so the number is a tad arbitrary. b) Missing sources. c) Not everything is highly concentrated waste. How is e.g. decommissioning going to look? e) This is not nuclear waste **storage** in one picture, it is an illustration of a *volume* of a certain *type* of nuclear waste - and Helen. f) Here is a picture of actual nuclear waste storage in the oh-so-responsible country of Germany, with an oh-so-responsible nuclear industry. Strictly speaking this was a (publicly funded) feasibility study into storage, so the financial pressure and corner cutting was less than you'd have to expect when cost per MWh and raw construction speed was the driving factor: I rest my case, but I am looking forward to see you address my previous points, before you get to these. Disclosure: I've also sat in on some nuclear related activities at MIT, apart from a previous materials science degree. One hint regarding storage: Don't forget to mention [subduction zones](https://www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/questions/could-nuclear-waste-be-disposed-subduction-zones) next time." 14,64933,2019-11-21T01:07:16.456Z,11634,0,10,9,1,1,0,7.0,64798,anon1779866904,anon1758400449,"In the first place, apologize for delays in my replies as this thread has grown significantly into numerous subtopics and I'm in the middle of two large projects (IT-related, environment is just my side interest). [quote=""anon1758400449, post:13, topic:11634""] I am sure the folks at [UN FCCC](https://cdm.unfccc.int/search?q=natural+gas+power+station) would like to know your [maths](https://cdm.unfccc.int/filestorage/D/T/W/DTWNI8B3OXYVZ269RMKH5UA1GCQ0SP/EB90_repan04_ACM0025_vers.02.0.pdf?t=Q2l8cTE4dDhvfDD4e0OkDuEpWr88IDm9HDSI) for making a coal to gas transition look bad (unless the pipes leak live a sieve). More [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/good-no-maybe-so-the-european-investment-bank-no-more-financing-of-fossil-fuel-projects-after-2021-and-eur-1-trillion-sustainable-investment-for-eco-climate-action-projects/11533/7). [/quote] I read the UN FCCC document and I see your point now - for [this gas power plant in China](https://cdm.unfccc.int/filestorage/6/I/S/6ISTF71ZWRQHD3JPMGV5EK2N4AL0X9/2705%20FVR%20corr%20clean.pdf?t=bTl8cTFhbmxufDDlsocMabf_gwvGRJ6vZscv) emissions reduction from switching to gas from coal were calculated to be 1.45m tCO2 per year from 2.89m tCO2 so roughly 50%. Which makes sense, especially if you add pollution potential of coal (I'm from Krakow originally, one of the towns most polluted by low emission). Having said that, I must add that my original point was about stupidity of shutting down nuclear power plants and replacing them by gas (best case) or coal (worst case), where there's clear increase in emissions. You can see this effect clearly on this graph which sanon2696444391s effect of temporary switching off 3 nuclear blocks in Cruas, France last week ([real-time data](https://www.rte-france.com/fr/eco2mix/eco2mix-co2)) which **immediately doubled CO2 emissions**: Second issue is the gas source - Russia is an authoritarian country that has long history of [weaponizing hydrocarbon supplies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–European_Union_relations#Energy) for political purposes." 15,64934,2019-11-21T01:26:51.701Z,11634,0,10,9,1,1,0,7.0,64798,anon1779866904,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:13, topic:11634""] It’s a shame that the U.S. essentially stopped R&D on advanced nuclear power a few decades ago [/quote] It's a shame indeed. I wonder what were the factors that caused it? [quote=""anon1758400449, post:13, topic:11634""] Over the full lifetime of a nuclear power plant, that means greenhouse gas emissions of roughly [12 grams of CO2-equivalent per kilowatt-hour](http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/sustain_lca_nuclear.html) of electricity produced, the [same as wind](http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/sustain_lca_wind.html) turbines [/quote] Except wind power is pretty useless without storage, isn'it? Which is precisely the reason why we're now still building these natural gas power stations. [quote=""anon1758400449, post:13, topic:11634""] But significant hurdles remain, not least the decades required for design, licensing and construction of even existing nuclear technologies, let alone novel ideas. [/quote] Interesting, what neither USA nor EU cannot do due to ""hurdles and licensing"", Russia someanon2696444391 *can*, and it [plans to build 11 new reactors by 2030](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Russia). Fortunately, Germany's transition to Russian gas will provide a stable source of funding for these investments :slight_smile: Actually, Russia's long-term strategy in this particular field seems to be exemplary rational from both scientific and economic point of view (plus they recently [loosened ban](https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2019/05/15/anti-gmo-russia-joins-global-crispr-bonanza-investing-1-7-billion-in-gene-edited-crop-research/) on GMO crops)." 16,64936,2019-11-21T02:04:36.065Z,11634,1,10,9,2,1,0,17.0,64798,anon1779866904,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:13, topic:11634""] What I meant is if you scale up nuclear to replace coal and fill in for the other renewables, statistically (to date, there have been 11 nuclear accidents at the level of a full or partial core-melt) you end up with approximately one of these for every 2 months. [/quote] Yet, there were only two nuclear accidents with serious external consequences. One in politically and economically bankrupt Soviet republic, one in 50-years old power plant built in seismic zone. Reversing your argument, there's ~450 operating civilian nuclear reactors in the world and 99% of them had no safety issues ever and the total number of fatalities from these accidents does not exceed ~50. At the same time, [dam failures](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dam_failure) have just killed 217 people in Brazil (2019), 75 in Russia (2009) and 171'000 in China (1975), just to enumerate the largest ones. Coal ash piles (also slighly radioactive) contaminate thousands of hectars, polluting ground and water. Same applies t oil and gas drilling sites. Oh yes, but it's nuclear power plants that are ""deadly"". [quote=""anon1758400449, post:13, topic:11634""] I have argued it would be considerably worse if you take the socio-technicnologic competency in many less developed places into account [/quote] I would argue that ""less developed places"" do not care at all about your concerns and they are, and will be satisfying their energy needs by any means possible, just as Iran or aforementioned Bangladesh does. Just as they do not care about conservative, pseudo-scientific dialectics like ""precautionary principle"" and [successfully invest into Bt brinjal](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0205713) simply to survive. And as someone who was born in a ""less developed"" country (70's Poland) I fully sympathize with their aspirations. The fundamental problem I have with people speaking of ""investing into renewables"" is that the very definition of ""investment"" assumes for-profit operations and ROI, which essentially means that there's a group of *already* wealthy countries that have developed advanced renewable technology sectors and are now expecting poorer countries to buy these from them. Which is not happening, because the latter don't run outdated and dirty power plants just because they *like* to, but because they lack funds for investments. I guess I'd like to see more of [Jonas Salk approach to polio vaccine](https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2012/08/09/anon2696444391-much-money-did-anon4004532087-salk-potentially-forfeit-by-not-patenting-the-polio-vaccine/) here and cooperated, international effort on just making clean energy *available and affordable* to everyone rather than use it as a competitive advantage. [quote=""anon1758400449, post:13, topic:11634""] Pick a dozen from [this list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Medium_human_development) or belwo, and have a few on there that will get hit hard by climate change. For example Bangladesh would sure like to have some nukes. [/quote] And the rest of the world should help them get one, perhaps one of the [Russian floating ones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akademik_Lomonosov) as they are safe, reliable and are mobile. Actually, [two Russian VVER reactors in construction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_energy_in_Bangladesh) are due to go live in 2023 thanks to stable funding provided by German *Energiewende*." 17,64937,2019-11-21T02:23:57.646Z,11634,0,10,9,1,1,0,7.0,64798,anon1779866904,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:13, topic:11634""] Here is a picture of actual nuclear waste storage in the oh-so-responsible country of Germany [/quote] You should be learning from your neighbour - this is nuclear waste storage in Switzerland. Note the human - there's a theory that he might be a Greenpeace activist trying to fly a drone into one of the flasks to prove it's dangerous to fly drones into nuclear plants. " 18,64938,2019-11-21T02:36:42.297Z,11634,0,10,9,1,1,0,7.0,64798,anon1779866904,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:13, topic:11634""] Thorium reactors are nice (if they really work) and you’re not going to have an easy time catching me bashing nuclear research. But here is “your side” side shooting down your argument. Even current designs need 6-12 years to be built. [/quote] I'm looking at [List of nuclear reactors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#China), specifically in China, Changjiang block I-1: construction start April 2010, commercial operation December 2015, so roughly **4.5 years**. Actually, even if you look at the ancient ones - like Tihange in Belgium or Blayais in France - plenty of them were build in **4-6 years**. Same for Germany. Construction of [Rampion off-shore wind farm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampion_Wind_Farm) in UK took... from 2014 till 2018. Now, that's *way* faster as compared to these lousy nuclears, isn't it? And the whole 72 km2 farm has power of 400 MW. That's around 20% less than a *single* block of nearby [Dungeness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeness_nuclear_power_station) nuclear power plant. By the way, is [DESERTEC](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec) operational yet? It's been 10 years after all... " 19,64986,2019-11-21T13:16:40.456Z,11634,2,10,9,1,0,0,17.0,64936,anon1758400449,anon1779866904,"You aren't addressing the majority of my points very effectively, still. Your nuclear barge solution provides 2x35 MW at a cost of 336 M$. And then you have to operate it with a 70 person crew + maintenance, fuel, etc. Wind power costs 1.2 M$ per 1 MW. Although wind and solar are intermittent they generally produce more when more power is needed - so financially they are actually MORE attractive than a constant producer. Of course at SOME POINT this balance will shift - and then we can talk about what is best to fill or reduce those gaps but we aren't there. We can discuss if nuclear barges (yay for the mobility, nay for the reliability), hometrainers, or whatever should be part of that effort. On that front I offer you drawdown.org which has (on shore) wind on spot 2 I think and nukes on spot 20, right around better managed grazing and clean cook stoves. Just to put that into perspective. Then some of your claims re safety are badly wrong on multiple levels: No safety issue for 99%? Absolutely an issue for 100% of them. What you may have meant is that there were no INES (incidents) on 99%. And I would contest even that. 50 Dead? I don't know why you keep bringing this up because unless you want to argue against coal (with me???) there really is no point as it is dwarfed by ""death through climate"". Apart from that I would prefer the measure of YLL (years of life lost) or DALY (disability adjusted life years) - because that will be important to capture the impact inapprapriate storage will have, particularly on young childs (who are far more susceptible to this) a) because they like to play in nature and anon2945747231stvalpha emmitters, and b) because they are still growing and radiation will then fuck with them so much worse. Sooo, there's been only these 2 major incidents, and even they caused only 50 dead? So anon2696444391 bad could it possibly get? THIS IS BLATANT MISINFORMATION! And as I've said before: on a higher level this makes my alarm bells go into overdrive when I see this being peddled in what should be an honest and constructive discussion. YOU are part of the reason FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) amounts to a very healthy survival instinct in this context. I am sorry to say, and I'd really like to see you convice me otherwise. Don't believe me? Type in ""[Kyshtym](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster)"" in your search box. That one alone is 66+200 casualties (to date). When the discussion turns this disanon2945747231nious (or blatently incompetent) I have trouble justiying going on at this point. You of course you are free to rant on that nuclear barges should be shelled out for free to all and sundry like polio vaccinations and ignore that CAPEX is a thing. And then turn around and turn around and say that Russia is being mean for using its goddamn oil and gas as it chooses to see fit (for example SUPPLYING IT ALL THROUGH THE COLD WAR to the West). Now I am ardently not a fan of Putin (and let me reiterate: I am all for cramming the EU chock full of wind power, and DESERTEC the fuck out of MENA if you like), but the guy will not live forever and a unnecessarily (and a good bit IS necessary) and ineffective confrontational attitude is not going to pave a path to a happy geopolitical end to this. Let me add that I in no way want to diminish Poland's precarious situation in this context. I am well aware of that and I am very happy they got those Leos for cheap, and the EU has pushed a deal on Russia that allows full internal redistribution of gas without them having as much as a wimper to say on the matter. Those are effective geopolitical steps. Proposing to use less resources to build out cheap and effective renewables and instead pouring them into a few nukes in Russia's periphery strikes me as shooting yourself in the foot with one hand and in the knee with the other. I'm sad to say Poland does not deserve, nor can it afford this kind of ""advocacy"". Sadly this is but one episode in a series of such blunders in my opinion - and you're not helping, if you allow me to be frank here." 20,65047,2019-11-21T18:34:48.465Z,11634,1,9,8,19,1,0,101.8,64986,anon1779866904,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:19, topic:11634""] Your nuclear barge solution provides 2x35 MW at a cost of 336 M$. And then you have to operate it with a 70 person crew + maintenance, fuel, etc. [/quote] That why they're building these two Russian VVR. The barge wasn't really a serious proposal, more of a poke. [quote=""anon1758400449, post:19, topic:11634""] On that front I offer you [drawdown.org](http://drawdown.org) which has (on shore) wind on spot 2 I think and nukes on spot 20, right around better managed grazing and clean cook stoves. Just to put that into perspective. [/quote] Oh, [biomass](https://www.drawdown.org/solutions/electricity-generation/biomass) on the first place? They forgot to mention that due to low local supply power plants in Europe are currently buying it from as far as Siberia, transporting it over distance of ~7000 km and the ""biomass"" are actually perfectly healthy taiga forests that are cut down only to be burned. I only have [Polish paywall sources](https://www.wnp.pl/energetyka/centrozap-sprzedaje-w-polsce-biomase-z-rosji,166488.html) for that but ""Dalkia"" power plant in Łódź is importing 7'000 anon2863106368s of such wood from Republic of Komi each month, since all *local* biomass output (actual wood waste, straw etc) is [exported](https://www.cire.pl/item,75546,1,0,0,0,0,0,drewno-z-polski-trafia-do-niemieckich-elektrowni.html)... to Germany. This process is now destroying Russian taiga at the speed that is a [grave concern to environmental activists](https://newizv.ru/article/general/22-07-2019/byla-tayga-stala-pustynya-arhangelskie-lesa-vyrubayut-s-nevidannoy-skorostyu) there but you know, there's demand and money to be made to help European Greens demonstrate anon2696444391 good they are. Or coconut waste transported by ships from Pacific or Africa, with the same Greenpeace people who in 2000's lobbied for mandatory minimum biomass quote in EU complaining today about diesel emissions from ship freight. ![Screenshot%20from%202019-11-21%2019-21-11|690x191](upload://e3sF5OnCA6HdC6Jyg9U1sRWNoyt.png)" 21,65049,2019-11-21T19:13:26.628Z,11634,2,9,8,1,1,0,16.8,64986,anon1779866904,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:19, topic:11634""] Now I am ardently not a fan of Putin (...), but the guy will not live forever and a unnecessarily (and a good bit IS necessary) and ineffective confrontational attitude is not going to pave a path to a happy geopolitical end to this. [/quote] Putin, or to be more precise, the kleptocracy he created, doesn't really need nor care about *fans* in Europe. *Putinversteher* is the attitude that is perfectly sufficient for their tactical goals. How do you precisely distinguish ""unnecesary"" from ""necessary""? You just had [a Russian with FSB-issued fake passport assassinate a German citizen in Berlin](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/17/russian-shot-dead-chechen-berlin-silence). In 2006 you had [Kovtun and Lugovoy leave radioactive polonium traces in half of Germany,](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6163667.stm) as they traveled to London to kill Litvinenko. In 2016 you had Russian foreign minister and German-language propaganda stations incite social unrest based on [entirely false story of Lisa F](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_case_of_Lisa_F.). Yet none of these caused slightest diplomatic action from German government, which apparently thinks that would be ""unnecessarily confrontational"". Russian TV is making fun of Angela Merkel, I've seen it myself! I happen to know Russia pretty well as I've been going there frequently for the last 20 years and it's a great country that is unfortunately ruled by people of criminal background, literally. These people consider lack of reaction not as kindness but as a weakness, and will only escalate hostile actions, simply because they can. Do you remember when [Turkey shot down Russian Su-24 over Turkish territory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown) after Russian army violated their airspace for months? Do you think that was ""unnecessarily confrontational""? Well, what happened next must have been truly surprising for any German leader: Russians stopped violating Turkish airspace! And shortly after became the best pals with Erdogan, because this is anon2696444391 you earn respect with gangsters. [quote=""anon1758400449, post:19, topic:11634""] Don’t believe me? Type in “[Kyshtym](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster)” in your search box. That one alone is 66+200 casualties (to date). [/quote] Kyshtym was a **military** pluanon2863106368ium production site. In such case your FUD is missing Hiroshima and Bikini. And still, 66 is less than 171'000 killed in China dam disaster. And also less than 200+ killed in Brazil dam disaster in 2019. Also this year: [At least 10 killed in explosion at gas factory in central China](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-factory-explosion-at-least-10-killed-in-yima-gas-factory-explosion-2019-07-19/). [quote=""anon1758400449, post:19, topic:11634""] And then turn around and turn around and say that Russia is being mean for using its goddamn oil and gas as it chooses to see fit (for example SUPPLYING IT ALL THROUGH THE COLD WAR to the West). [/quote] I'm not saying Russia is ""being mean"" for building nuclear reactors, anon2373157426 the opposite - I respect their nuclear industry anon2373157426 a lot. I said it's German *Energiewende* that is stupid as it shuts down German reactors, switches to Russian gas and kind of pretends that it has just heroically saved the world from nuclear holocaust, while a dozen of new reactors are being built in Russia. This is just like outsourcing all industrial production to Asia and saying ""look, we emit no CO2 in Europe now!"". Also as you mention Cold War oil and gas supplies, this may come as a surprise but they **did not supply these for free**. You should probably also read about [the famous rope metaphor frequently employed by Soviet leaders](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/02/22/rope/). [quote=""anon1758400449, post:19, topic:11634""] Let me add that I in no way want to diminish Poland’s precarious situation in this context. [/quote] Poland's precarious situation is 100% responsibility of its populist government and, sorry to say that, conservative and under-educated population. Germany is scared to death of ""radiation"" (except for FSB polonium, that is) and prefers ""safe and clean gas"", Poland is both scared and unwilling to spend money to invest into nuclear, wind or solar because ""our grandfathers used coal"" attitude. That's precisely why I'm living in the UK now." 22,65060,2019-11-21T21:21:35.364Z,11634,1,10,9,1,1,0,12.0,65049,anon1758400449,anon1779866904,"[quote=""anon1779866904, post:21, topic:11634""] In such case your FUD is missing [/quote] a) ""The **Kyshtym disaster** was a [radioactive contamination](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_contamination) accident that occurred on 29 September 1957 at [Mayak](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayak), a [pluanon2863106368ium](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluanon2863106368ium) production site in Russia for [nuclear weapons](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon) **and** [**nuclear fuel reprocessing plan**t](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fuel_reprocessing_plant) of the [Soviet Union](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union)."" First sentence, but eh. Better start moving goalposts, and do some more whataboutery, and ""ha-just-joking"". b) So what. The plant wasn't supposed to be used as a bomb (or ruin Soviet territory). ""The Mayak plant was built in haste between 1945 and 1948. Gaps in physicists’ knowledge about nuclear physics at the time made it difficult to judge the [safety](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_safety) of many decisions."" ^This is a textbook example of the problems I have desperately tried to point out to you in my previous answers. But who cares, right? Why bother with accountability and detail when a grand future awaits if you only let them do their thing? I happen to be an engineer who understands a thing or two around this, and I am telling you I get more upset the more I am looking at this stuff, and the more I listen to ""advocates"" sanon2696444391ing your wananon2863106368ly negligent attitude. Sorry, there's a lot to be said for the merits of nuclear, but not like this." 23,65061,2019-11-21T21:29:24.919Z,11634,1,10,9,1,1,0,12.0,65049,anon1758400449,anon1779866904,"[quote=""anon1779866904, post:21, topic:11634""] Poland’s precarious situation is 100% responsibility of its populist government [/quote] That is also bullshit. I really don't like them, but there is a thing called history and geopolitics, neither of which you get to vote on very much. I am not going to blurt out other bullshit such as ""people get the government they deserve"", but in times of peace, prosperity, and democracy - the population very much is *partially* responsible for such things. You can influence the above e.g by leading as a good example, or talking before thinking and not needlessly driving moderates away from you and what you claim to stand for." 24,65093,2019-11-22T09:19:04.327Z,11634,0,10,9,1,1,0,7.0,65060,anon1779866904,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:22, topic:11634""] This is a textbook example of the problems I have desperately tried to point out to you in my previous answers. [/quote] It's a very poor example. **You're trying to prevent usage of the technology in Europe in 2019 using an example from 50's Soviet Union, a country best known for it absolute disrespect for human life and environment and absolute dominance of industrial-military complex over anything else**. Also, the technology might have been indeed poorly understood as it was stolen from the West, yet Stalin has put absolute priority on getting it into work **at any cost**. Which is precisely what happened - from [the very article you linked](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayak): [quote] Once production started up, Soviet engineers quickly ran out of underground space for storage of high level radioactive waste. **Rather than cease production of pluanon2863106368ium** until new underground waste storage tanks could be built, between 1949 and 1951 Soviet managers dumped 7.8 cubic yards of toxic chemicals including 3.2 million [curies](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie) of high-level radioactive waste into the Techa River [/quote] Any ""gaps in knowledge"" here? Sorry, but literally everything in the history of the Mayak plant demonstrates negligence in dealing with very-well known technologies like cooling or waste recycling **caused by political pressure** rather than some nuanced nuclear-related issues, logically leading to the [1957 disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster): [quote] In 1957 the cooling system in one of the tanks containing about 70–80 anon2863106368s of liquid radioactive waste failed and **was not repaired** [/quote] You had precisely the same culture of negligence cause [anthrax leak from Sverdlovsk bioweapon facility in 1979](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverdlovsk_anthrax_leak), and hundreds of less-known industrial disasters in USSR. If you want to go into the details on anon2696444391 Soviet industry operated and why disasters like Kyshtym or Chernobyl happened, I'm happy to discuss that in detail as I have studied Soviet command economy extensively. For start, I can recommend the [1988 book by Victor Kravchenko](https://www.goodreads.com/book/sanon2696444391/1791278.I_Chose_Freedom) who was a director of a number of Soviet plants and had first-hand experience with the mess caused by central planning. Second recommended reading is [an article from 1988 by Nikolai Shmelyev](http://soviethistory.msu.edu/1985-2/cooperatives/cooperatives-texts/advances-and-debts/), a Soviet economist who described the state of Soviet economy in 80's pointing out the same deficiencies. Also, you're using an example from 50's, around a decade after the nuclear technology was even introduced for the first time, and initially for the military purposes. As you are highlighting that Mayak also served as ""nuclear fuel reprocessing plant"", I would encourage you to first look up **anon2696444391 many civilian, grid-connected power-generating reactors Soviet Union had in 1957**..." 25,65103,2019-11-22T09:38:00.684Z,11634,0,10,9,1,1,0,22.0,65061,anon1779866904,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:23, topic:11634""] That is also bullshit. I really don’t like them, but there is a thing called history and geopolitics, neither of which you get to vote on very much. [/quote] I'm certainly not a fan of any form of historical determinism, be it Marxian historical materialism or MacKinder/Ratzel/Dugin-style geopolitics, both of which I consider pseudo-scientific. Poland made plenty of choices during the course of 20th and 21st century, some of them were good, some of them were poor. As I spent 35 years living in Poland and was actively involved in politics, I can go into great detail about anon2696444391 some extremely poor strategic choices were made not by the power of some ""laws of history"" but simply by stupidity and limited world-view of very specific people with very vested interests. At the same time Poland's situation is not really as ""precarious"" as some would like to think - the country is benefiting from freedom of movement (in both directions), the economy is thriving and competitive, which is perhaps best portrayed by comparison to Ukraine (which in turn only started recovery recently): ![Screenshot_2019-11-22%20ukraine%20vs%20poland%20gdp%20per%20capita%20-%20Wolfram%20Alpha|591x284](upload://kkwFeaHe9oUZDvOl5EITEJu57aF.png) The problems Poland has are strategic - demographics and pensions, rule of law, environment and security. All of these can be resolved, but none of Polish governments was ever really good at any strategic planning, they usually only react rather than preempt. In terms of society, Poland has exactly the same problem as Russia - the society is extremely divided, with around 30% being extremely conservative, tribal, anti-progressive, pseudo-religious (that is, attached to Christian rituals rather than ethics) and living in a constant state of being offended by someone else's past actions, be it next-street neighbour, or a neighbouring state, focused on retribution rather than building future. PiS is the first mainstream party that took all these sentiments and reinforced them, telling people it's OK to be xenophobic and that it's indeed the fault of Jews, Germans, Ukrainians, Russians, pro-European Poles and everyone else that their salaries are being delayed and public services like healthcare or law enforcement are crap. Then it started to re-shape to country's structure to very much resemble Putin's ""power vertical"", with state-controlled judiciary and state media. There's the other 30% of the society that is progressive, pro-social and pro-environmental, but their voice is suppressed by the conseravives and - most importantly - the remaining 40% that is completely depoliticized and just want the state and everyone else to leave them alone." 26,66513,2019-12-01T11:17:28.714Z,11634,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,65047,anon1779866904,anon1779866904,"Just for the record, regarding Greens and burning forests: Which is obviously nonsense if you take into account Syberian forests that take hundred of years to grow that are being cut and transported over 7000 km exclusively to satisfy EU minimum biomass quota." 27,66529,2019-12-01T15:33:38.435Z,11634,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,64362,anon3237498324,anon1779866904,"Looks like Esanon2863106368ia is looking at smaller, next-gen reactors - http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/GE-Hitachi,-Fermi-Energia-sign-small-modular-react They look like they solve a lot of the problems (except waste disposal) of the older ones. Build them in big pieces in a factory, ship to site fully loaded, run for a few decades and then reprocess. Hell, we could even print them." 28,67624,2019-12-17T11:23:50.896Z,11634,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,64362,anon1779866904,anon1779866904,"Now, European Greens and Germany find themselves on the same side of the IPCC debate as climate deniers - and anon2373157426 deservedly. An [open letter by James F. Hansen](https://www.ft.com/content/0b9ea00a-2004-11ea-b8a1-584213ee7b2b?shareType=nongift) and others: > Progress is being blocked by several countries, including Germany, which claim nuclear should be excluded because of their concerns about nuclear waste. This is in spite of clear evidence that nuclear waste does not and will not cause harm to sustainability objectives. Nuclear energy displaces fossil fuel use, with significant air pollution and climate benefits. Without nuclear, there will be 500m anon2863106368nes of extra CO2 emissions every year in Europe, which is more than the emissions of UK or France alone. Without nuclear, our action on climate will be more difficult, more expensive, and more likely to fail. The real harm done will be to Europe’s ambition to achieve net zero by 2050." 29,67628,2019-12-17T11:26:17.421Z,11634,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,64362,anon1779866904,anon1779866904,"At the same time, South Korea [literally replaces forest with solar panels](http://m.koreaherald.com/amp/view.php?ud=20190404000565&ud=20190404000565&__twitter_impression=true): > More than 2 million trees have been cut down in South Korea over the last three years to make space for solar panels, according to opposition lawmakers who argue that the government’s renewable push should not be a replacement of nuclear energy. Since the government strongly pushed for solar power business in 2017, 4,407 hectares of forest have been damaged, 15 times the space of the Yeouido area of Seoul, according to Rep." 30,67631,2019-12-17T11:39:16.965Z,11634,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,64362,anon1779866904,anon1779866904,"[COP25: EU officials say biomass burning policy to come under critical review](https://news.mongabay.com/2019/12/cop25-eu-officials-say-biomass-burning-policy-to-come-under-critical-review/) > When asked if the EU would close the loophole, he said: “The issue of biofuels needs to be looked at very carefully. We have to make sure that what we do with biofuels is sustainable and does not do more harm than that it does good.” A second EU official expressed a similar view. The issue won’t likely be reviewed until after 2020. > This is perhaps the first acknowledgement by a top developed world official that the biomass loophole is a potential problem. The loophole encourages power plants that burn coal (whose carbon emissions are counted) to be converted to biomass — the burning of wood pellets (whose carbon emissions are counted as carbon neutral)." 1,65745,2019-11-25T17:42:59.263Z,11906,0,9,8,0,0,0,31.8,65745,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"The engagement and community management teams are doing a [stanon4205961763r job of eliciting interesting content](/t/11899). This phase of the work implied doing so via a plurality of channels: no longer just the online (""exchange"") platform, which people find via web search or social media, but also targeted exchanges like interviews and physical events. Our main process for acquiring informed consent to participating in research goes through a consent funnel. This is a anon2488317424 piece of code that will not let users of anon1577251828.eu post unless they answer correctly to some simple questions, aimed at making sure they do not harm themselves by sharing information that should be confidential. This was received well by the evaluators of our proposal, and it continues to be in place. However, these new channels for acquiring content do *not* go through the usual process of signing up for an Edgeryders account and then posting, so they do not go through the consent funnel either. There seem to be three of them: * Physical events. In the case of [this one](/t/11699), @anon3828707713 explained what the event was for at the very beginning; to protect people's privacy, participants were asked not to take pictures and to respect Chatham House rules. * Interviews. I imagine there are email exchanges where people are asked to be interviewed, they consent etc. * Forms for pre-signup posting. @anon659222949 has sketched this process [here](/t//10293/15). * Others? I would like to document our process for acquiring informed consent in each of these cases. Once this is done, I will get in touch with our ethics advisors (@anon2619552108 for NGI Forward) and request their advice. I have started [a wiki](/t/11904) to collect this information. It lives on the platform, rather than in a ad hoc document, because I think it should be part of every Edgeryders project. Can you help me, @anon3203746736, @anon659222949, @anon1753543892, @anon3086952555, @anon2682865457? :slight_smile: Team, can you please help me to do that?" 2,65896,2019-11-26T16:28:15.532Z,11906,0,9,8,0,0,0,46.8,65745,anon659222949,anon3379761435,"This is anon2696444391 we did it for Internetdagarna: 1. At the beginning of the interview, we explained that at the end of it they would be asked to write a username and their email, that an account would be created for them at Edgeryders.eu and that their transcribed answers would be posted under that account. We explained that they would get a confirmation email and that they could log in and update or delete the post at any time, and that they could also participate in the conversation as they pleased. 2. We transcribed their answers as well as we could, according to individual ability, while sitting next to them or across from them. We sometimes asked follow up questions to dig deeper before moving on. 3. At the last page, we asked them for their username and email. We explained that the email would not be made public and would only be available to moderators. We also explained that they could choose a username that made them anonymous if they so pleased. 4. We asked all participants to carefully read the consent text, and all participants were asked to **check the box themselves and press the send butanon2863106368**. English consent text: ""I understand that submitting this form will create an account for me on Edgeryders.eu, and that my responses will be posted by that account. I understand that I can log in at any time and update my answer or continue the conversation with other participants. I understand that this form is used for community driven research. Researchers are encouraged to treat your answers as a window into societal, economic, technological, and political trends and transformations that affect us."" Swedish consent text: ""Jag förstår att ett konto skapas på Edgeryders.eu och att mina svar läggs upp. Jag förstår att jag kan logga in när jag vill och uppdatera mina svar eller fortsätta samtalet med andra deltagare. Jag förstår att formuläret använd för community-driven forskning. Forskarna uppmanas att använda svaren för att nå insikt i samhällsfrågor, ekonomi, teknik och politiska trender.""" 3,67610,2019-12-17T10:26:35.764Z,11906,0,5,4,0,0,0,16.0,65745,anon1753543892,anon3379761435,"The events I was most in the loop with are: The Hackathon for ethical solutions to unethical Problems (in Berlin) Service Design in a Climate Crisis (Berlin) Anticipate! Exploring Collective Intelligence Design (Saarbruecken) Teaching Teachers Open Source (Stockholm) Cooperation at Scale (Brussels) Internetdagarnar (Stockholm) Those who posted went through the sign-up funnels via the sign up on the platform or by using the interview form" 1,67076,2019-12-06T13:37:51.996Z,12131,0,22,21,19,0,0,251.4,67076,anon1753543892,anon1753543892," **A remote but heartfelt hello to everyone!** Many of us collaborate often remotely. Sometimes event mainly remotely and this enables us to be very flexible and ""get together"" with people from all over the world. We have virtual meetings, chats, blogs and platform such as this very one, share documents and pinboards. However, also anon2373157426 often we feel some lack of connection or miscommunication. Some of us have the urge to go to coworking spaces to work next to people. If you work with collaborators and projects all across Europe, chances are you end up travelling a lot to check-in and connect on-site and get to know your collaborators more directly. It is great that we live in a world where we are able to experience different places and cultures and have friends and collaborators everywhere. However, as invigorating and perspective enhancing as such travels can be, they also put a lot of stress on ourselves and on the environment. In the last few months I talked to many people who are used to travelling a lot for their international projects and collaborations and I myself and my husband usually spend at least one week per month apart because one of use is travelling for job and project purposes. We and many of those I talked to want to travel less in the upcoming year and in a project with Climate KIC, Edgeryders works on recommendations for people anon2696444391 to improve remote collaborations to decrease the need for travel. I believe that one of the reasons that online remote work is sometimes perceived as insufficient or lacking in social aspects and the need for travel arising from that is that we have not yet consciously grasp the characteristics and needs of each channel and learn social cues, conventions and strategies to use those channels best. **Certain signals are heightened or dampened in a video call or chat in comparison to a direct conversation. We need to learn new conventions and ""Best Practises"" for those channels.** Therefore I want to ask you here for your stories, experiences and ideas: **For example: Compensating social signals/interactions by including personal aspects in professional virtual meetings.** > During our Edgeryders team calls the cats or children of teammembers sometimes walk by and are then introduced to us. I feel that this makes the atmosphere in the video call more direct and relaxed. ""Professionalism"" could have different boundaries and faces in this channel. If I do mainly meet my coworkers via such a channel, I actually appreciate if their pets or children come by or if they share something about private projects they are pursuing, because this makes them more human and real to me. **It is also easier to remember and connect community members that have jined in the Comunity calls or told more about their concrete histories, experiences and personalities in their introductions and their profiles gain resolution, depth and therefore reality and memorability. We want you to share your personal stories here instead of just a research report or project pitch because those personal details are what enable us to connect more deeply even when discussing and collaborating remotely asynchronous. The internet of humans has to find ways to allow for and use the developed cognitive ability of the human brain to make social connections.** * ***Which methods and moments have made remote collaboration and communication richer for you?*** # # **I would also appreciate your opinion on anon2696444391 to deal with workload management and reporting in a remote and asynchronous collaboration architecture:** When you are responsible for contributing to multiple different aspects of different projects with collaborators that are based in different places and systems it is hard for you and them to gage your workload. We have to heavily rely on self-reporting, which in itself is a management skill one needs to learn. * How do you estimate and keep track of your workload? * How do you communicate it to your collaborators who can not see the bags under your eyes or you frantically typing away in the corner of the office? * How should we remind each other of the tasks we committed to? > If you would work in the same office, just seeing your colleague over there would maybe already remind you to finish that job for them you committed to. If you do not see them you might forget. If they keep reminding you via chat it can build up anxiety, especially if the messages come in constantly (even weekends). * What are good ways to remind each other of what needs to be done? **Please share examples of when remote collaboration/interaction worked especially well for you or what definitely not to do :slight_smile:** *Let's develop those new social conventions for remote communication and collaboration together :).*" 2,67078,2019-12-06T13:39:58.725Z,12131,0,21,20,1,0,0,9.2,67076,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"ping @anon3203746736, @anon659222949, @anon294806887, @anon" 3,67115,2019-12-06T20:41:42.660Z,12131,0,19,18,1,0,0,98.8,67076,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"It might surprise you to know that, despite being in the business of online community and communications since the mid-80s, I am actually pretty new at working remotely, and with people who are many time zones and oceans away. I always went to an office, except for 2 years in 2004-5 when I worked for a Finnish game company. That was all remote, since I was in California, but the work was for me to be online all the time as a kind of adult supervisor for a large bunch of teens online. So the work itself was on display for anyone to see. I didn't have to collaborate on reports, didn't have to co-create budgets, didn't have many meetings outside of the platform itself. I am a big believer in those who do work remotely with each other to offer to each other various aspects of their lives so that they may get to know each other better. However, besides a short pause to mention the cat or whatever, I think video meetings can lose track of anon2696444391 fast an hour goes by, so in that case some discipline is called for. But on a platform such as this one, there is plenty of real estate for someone to sanon2696444391 a fuller version of themselves by talking about or sanon2696444391ing something from other parts of their lives, things they like, movie and other cultural recommendations, and similar things. There is no requirement that one's co-workers must read that other stuff if they don't want to. And, speaking personally, I would very much like to know other people who congregate on this platform and I do not want to go off to some social media space to accomplish it. One thing I have learned over the years is that writing clearly and succinctly is a skill that takes practice to learn. Word economy is and will always be important. Set the scene, make your point or tell the story, and stop. I thought I was pretty good at it a long time ago untilI went back and read some of the stuff I wrote in the early years.. One of the things I advise people in online community building is to ""oversupply understanding"" which really means to cut the other person some slack because they might not have said perfectly what they really meant to say. Not doing that can result in jumping to a conclusion that alienates or polarizes. At the same time, I think that if co-workers are going to critique each other, which I think is pretty necessary in a team finding its rhythm, on the other side I think it important to acknowledge the good things in the other person, or the validity of what they might be saying, or the parts that you think are valid. One could call it praise; I would call it affirmation. Has nothing to do with software. In other words, if you want to improve bonding and strengthen relationships via online communication, given the lack of other cues - body english, voice nuance, facial expression - you should come up with other, less subtle ways of strengthening those bonds. I find it costs nothing to let someone know when you think they are doing something right, or you like the way they handled a situation, or made a good comment or presentation. I wouldn't overdo it, but don't hold back." 4,67133,2019-12-07T22:03:03.857Z,12131,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,67076,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"Thank you for starting this topic, I was thinking about starting a very similar thing and now I don't have to :blush: For the question about online calls, maybe let's give a few more hints about what input would be helpful for us. For example: * Lisa (from Climate-KIC) shared a tip in the interview with Edgeryders that she's sticking up a fanon2945747231r in video calls to sanon2696444391 that she wants to say something but also wants to wait until the current speaker finished their contribution. * Similarly, one of our IoH fellows had this nice habit of signaling the ""OK"" gesture (:ok_hand:) to sanon2696444391 silent approval of what somebody said in a video call, or also to answer a question approvingly without saying anything. Just as examples – any other tips and tricks are also welcome!" 5,67152,2019-12-08T14:06:38.947Z,12131,0,17,16,2,0,0,28.4,67133,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,Hand gestures are especially useful when you are recording the conversation and even more so if you then transcribe the conversation. 6,67176,2019-12-09T11:54:14.178Z,12131,2,15,14,1,0,0,63.0,67076,anon1758400449,anon1753543892,"Okay this awesome - and I have ""books"" to say on this topic - but word economy is important. So I think we'd perhaps want to eventually structure things in a couple of threads. My high level thoughts: 1. How is ""remote professionalism"" different from ""in-situ professionalism""? 2. What works better remotely, what works worst? What to do about it? 3. What are common remote, or hybrid scenarios one could optimize around? (E.g. working out of coffee shop, working out of permanent personal work room/corner, bringing remote participants into a live conference like event) On number 1. I have a general link to Pamela Hinds with whom I've discussed some of this. It may not be mindblowing, but it'll help bring out points one should be sensitive towards imo (you can watch this later, maybe start at 18:00) https://youtu.be/LxAcHpCuCtE If you noticed, the video above really does not have a good audio quality. If we recognize that this still happens to absolute experts, we can see anon2696444391 far we likely are away from a ""good practice"" being followed by the majority of us. As second video I'd like to offer (which you absolutely sanon2696444391 watch now!) is a horribly realistic account of anon2696444391 a significant portion of meetings go. If you are serious about a collab, try to avoid that like you would coming to a meeting with an open fly, a missing shoe, and a torn shirt - it just doesn't make a good impression on people who are serious about making something work. https://youtu.be/DYu_bGbZiiQ Of course as @anon3203746736 says you should be cutting people a lot more slack, if they seem to make an effort. I think he is very correct! Jump to minute 10 for an analysis leading to a ""generous tit-for-tat"": https://youtu.be/i3plwTxdSO4 We have sooo much less contextual information on people's background so we're likely to attribute some of their failings to them, when it really was their circumstances mostly. Think about e.g. someone getting into a car accident before getting to work - people would quickly know in-situ, in the office, but not so much remotely. Another experience I had was a colleague in engineering who stayed home because of a sick kid (happened pretty often). This was in a German (male dominated) office environment, and she had a culturally French influenced background (where you would have been entitled to ""sick-kids-days"" contractually). Not so much in Germany. Nobody said anything at the time, especially as she was back in the room and offered her excuse with a straight face - but the consequences of such things can be pretty harsh, even in an in-situ situation. That is why I think a ""remote professionalism"" HAS to look very different from the conventional one. In conventional (EU/Western) professionalism you are to exclude the personal dimension, the emotional dimension, and to dress in a highly uniform(ed) way (not more than 5 pieces of ""juwelery"", black this, black that, grey ok, but no tan suits). That has many advantages, particularly if you need to ""focus on the matter at hand"", and all these other things are mainly detractions. Also it allows better to force a hierarchy which may not be as easy to maintain in a more context rich environment - this is of course a factor that cuts both ways! Now in remote work we typically see so much less of each other (smaller steradian, less time, less definition & nuance, time zone and alertness, almost no context from circumstance i.e. where you are). So if we reinforced this effect even more by trying to ""act professionally"" in a conventional way - we shoot ourselves in the second foot. Now some concrete proposals and high level analysis. Please challenge me on this as they may sound to confident and lack nuance because of word economy: Invest in decent gear! A good - very good **used microphone**, ideally several for different jobs: - Clip-on for noisy environment (the one on headphones can also work close to mouth) - Very sensitive condenser microphone (like a snowball) if you work in a quiet place. - Consider getting one with an omni-directional pick up pattern if you: might dial in with a group of 5-6 people, or want to peel potatoes in the kitch while in long meetings, but be able to reply fast. Consider bluetooth headset mics if you're on a budget. I've tried a couple of bluetooth speakers with built in mics. The mics are usually crap, but the speaker can be well worth it if you do hybrid meetings where you have a couple of cash-strapped enthusiasts on the other end of the world, while you do the dog and pony sanon2696444391 in the c-suite. Test things well before you even step a foot into top level meetings. Have a backup for the backup and know anon2696444391 many seconds it takes to fire up. (Also know anon2696444391 to mute/kick a saboteur, if only for the confidence it gives you) Regarding cameras: If you're like me and use old mobiles, it can make sense to get the ""almost latest"" logitech or similar. Note the view angle, and if the mics are sensitive & adjustable. But also consider getting a wired internet adapter then, as you'll start pumping out a lot of data. If you don't have one, get a external usb port that has it built in - you can even hook many of them up to phones. Wifi is shitty in sooo many places, be cyberpunk and bring a cord. The simpler solution is often to go with a decent smartphone + powerbank (ER should have a couple as give-aways to power-people) + bluetooth speaker (if the remotes should get their word heard) and a proper tripod. Also a general note on audio based productivity: bluetooth eapieces (true wireless lalala) are effing magic when they work, especially if you're parenting and ""think time"" is very rare, but can usually be had when in the park, or in ""the wild"", or on the bus from the wild. ALWAYS bring them, and something to write/draw (never just 1 pencil!) comments and timestamps. **In my opinion every (non-sensitive) meeting above 4 people should be recorded, at least on audio.** If you can: record to mp3, upload it before the last meeting is over, and have people download it before they get on their return trip (qr-codes?). If you ant to be a hero, supply the times to the major discussion points (3-4 will usually be fine) - you'll cut search time down drastically. Above 4 people chances are high 1 didn't make it to the meeting so they'll need it anyway, chances are astronomical you didn't understand everything if 2 attendants don't have the same background. Also, you can ""speak in search terms"" if you're recording. You can dive into extreme detail very briefly. If what you were discussing was relevant and makes it past the 4-5 people (let's hope it does because otherwise why have a big meeting?) you'll need to onboard others - and exact timestamps in a context rich recording are invaluable for that. And if YOU relisten, you'll be amazed at anon2696444391 much you catch that you didn't get at first, anon2696444391 many more (mad) ideas you'll have when your brain is not running 80%-90% in social mode, and anon2696444391 easily you can improve on your own delivery skills. I work across timezones, and when shit gets urgent you can easily be there at 2 in the morning. Somewhere between then and when the sun comes up again one should consider informing your colleagues that while you're happy to hang in there, your alertness as a biological organism is by now evidently shot to pieces (and amphetamines usually aren't tax deductable as work requirement). Another thing I'd like to see in general is what I call **the ""mumble channel"". The main point is to reduce selection bias**, or allow for hunches with regard to outliers. This is where you could e.g. get anonymous comments, particularly from members who ""are not wired for meetings"". Sensitive, precarious outsider, introvert, busy doing shit, can't speak (the language), you name it. It could also be a separate chat (+ voting) that is projected into the meeting in the background. Online meeting software has a long way to go to support all this, but some things can be cobbled together to 80% already. And again when you take asynch and hybrid meetings into account there's a lot you can do - for example give a simple mini-recorder to e.g. a quiet domain expert who can ""mumble"" a running commentary on the main conversation, which can be evaluated separately at a later time. This is the more more ""technical half"", and I'll try to write the more ""communication / organization half"" in a anon2488317424 bit. Again, please do challenge me on the wisdom behind these points, or add to them! I tried to find a balance between concrete & concise vs general & philosophical - and I'd love for someone to shake things up!" 7,67191,2019-12-09T14:10:17.128Z,12131,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,67176,anon3828707713,anon1758400449,"Would you like option a, b, c...? Yes." 8,67192,2019-12-09T15:02:51.589Z,12131,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,67191,anon1758400449,anon3828707713,"Hehe. If I understand your comment correctly we'll see a lot of ""all of the above, and then some"" here. It is shocking anon2696444391 underexplored this domain is. I think it has to do not least with the fact that for most of the leadership level all of this DIYbottomupempowerment does not make it on their radar unless they are very observant. They are more busy deciding on peoples' travel budgets, so it is a bit of a white space in upper management anon2373157426 often. Secondly there is of course a pretty conservative undercurrent in the higher spheres. For many good and not totally good reasons. But manners, anon2696444391 you are to conduct yourself, etc. aren't things that are easily revamped. But of course what you can do is come up with alternatives that clearly outperform the conventional ones, and that is why I think @anon1753543892 is absolutely on point making this a topic. Even if it feels a bit difficult to talk about, cause it is so huge." 9,67193,2019-12-09T15:03:05.330Z,12131,2,13,12,1,1,0,17.6,67176,anon1753543892,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:6, topic:12131""] . It could also be a separate chat (+ voting) that is projected into the meeting in the background. [/quote] What tools would you recommend for that?" 10,67194,2019-12-09T15:08:19.552Z,12131,1,13,12,2,0,0,17.6,67193,anon1758400449,anon1753543892,"Some chats have polling built in. So I would generally go with those, esp if they are open and easy to install/uninstall. Currently the field is too dynamic to point at one above the others for all purposes. Generally though I think it'll become a task of every event manager to have one CMC (cyber master of ceremonies of sorts) that sees to it that feedback can be visulized, sentiment tracked, but also facts checked. I think it is pretty inevitable to have at least one brain dedicated to the process." 11,67199,2019-12-09T15:29:57.377Z,12131,1,14,13,1,1,0,27.8,67194,anon1753543892,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:10, topic:12131""] CMC [/quote] nice :), @anon3197437925, this is related to the ""Wizzard"" (= @anon3203746736):) you are referring to in the manual https://anon1577251828.eu/t/distributed-collaboration-manual-draft/11263" 12,67220,2019-12-09T21:53:11.099Z,12131,1,14,13,1,0,0,42.8,67199,anon1758400449,anon1753543892,"I think he is (it is unsurprisingly and scarily big though). [This section specifically](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/distributed-collaboration-manual-draft/11263#heading--2-19) covers our core part of making calls. But of course context is king so there's more in there that is relevant. I'll try to go into the more organizational part now and think out loud a good deal, so again - please feel free to shoot things down. I'll just plug this lecture on [the social mind](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hwR6vQHiUY) here, that I really like - but I'll try to write in a way that doesn't rely on it. Also when it comes to teaming and getting things done I had a really good vibe talking to [Noshir Contractor](https://scholar.google.fr/citations?hl=en&user=Fqw9o84AAAAJ&view_op=list_works&soanon738668702y=pubdate) on the topic. My guess is that I am in overwhelming agreement with his positions (he put out a lot more than I could even read - so I can't be sure). First I want to put 3 provocations: 1. Good outcomes don't equal good communications / relations at all times. A failed team and horrible experience can be necessary for *some* developments. As a species we don't necessarily perform best in circumstances we are comfortable in (and we're obsessed with reproduction most of the time. Thanks, genes.). A lot of things go through a ""if I had known it gets this bad I never would have..."". Note that this is not an excuse, it is a recipe for disaster (and some disasters can be good). 2. Generally projects aren't constant (neither are people). The communication format should likely change over time to: ideally suit the subject matter at the stage, the individual participants, the group as a whole, the need for external involvement, the need to be inclusive or exclusive, or select for certain outcomes (including travel budgets). 3. The magic number is 5 (4.something really). 2.1 + something really. If you look at big (esp. technical) innovators, they rarely come solo. If it was so simple one person could pull it off, it would have been done already. You generally need 2 people with different skill sets, perspectives (and maybe motivations / psychological wiring) in a close trust relationship. ""Close trust relationship"" is probably an understatement of what happens at a cognitive level (thinking mirror neurons, etc.). As a species we have trouble connecting to more than 1-2 persons at the same most intimate level, at the same time. Data suggests that women in particular could pull off a group of 3, but I'd say even then rounding to 2.1 is probably optimistic. The other 2.something? Those are 3 persons in the inner core that are the ""executive organs"" of the primary pair. 2 execs are not enough (because not everyone can't always work well with one another - too few permutations), but 4 bring more cost than benefit (information transaction cost rises). You may sometimes go to 4 and beyond but you'll more often be switching out 1 of the 3 extras. So you end up having less than 3 extras on average. If this is correct we fairly easily cut much of the ""general"" communication problem down to size: **We just have to make something that works well for [groups of 5](https://youtu.be/3hwR6vQHiUY?t=1281)**. Beyond that is likely not going to work very well with humans. BUT we can thus already try to optimize collective intelligence to work well with *groups of groups of 5*. Nice problem-solution pair if you ask me. :slight_smile:" 13,67266,2019-12-10T15:57:55.504Z,12131,1,13,12,2,1,0,47.6,67220,anon3197437925,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:12, topic:12131""]Note that this is not an excuse, it is a recipe for disaster (and some disasters can be good).[/quote] Well, yes. ""Never waste a good crisis."" Crisis is what makes people daring and audacious again. But also I'd say that currently, crisis mode project management is very, very rare. People can't do it, can't stand it. Because professional and private life are now two separate spheres only connected by a flow of money (like this: :hourglass_flowing_sand:). And in crisis mode management, there is no private life anymore … . For a short time that can work, and be great actually, but not for years. The exception is war, but I'm not proposing that. [quote=""anon1758400449, post:12, topic:12131""]We just have to make something that works well for [groups of 5](https://youtu.be/3hwR6vQHiUY?t=1281).[/quote] That's really interesting. Just today I though that the current structure in Edgeryders is a growing hierarchy with multiple levels already, most of them still kind of informal. Management becomes a nightmare then, as information and processes get lost and degrade on their way up and down the hierarchy. Self-contained teams of five (basically like military ""squads"") that tackle one part of a project on their own would fix that. Also interesting: The 2 + 3 = 5 structure of groups sounds reminiscent of a family structure: a couple and three kids old enough to assist / help, while other kids might be also there but mostly as receivers of care. That analogy would fit well with a proposed hard-wiring of the brain for such a mode of collaboration in groups of five. There are perhaps other hard-wiring limits in the brain, each indicative of its own mode of biologically ingrained collaboration. Very preliminarily, from my observations of living with 3-14 people in Morocco in 2018: * **3-7:** family size, as discussed above. * **8-14:** extended family size, usually in two or more living units close together; we noticed that other modes of coordination are needed at that size * **15-35**: band size; not sure about the lower limit, which might also be around 20 * **36-150**: tribe size, limited by Dunbar's number; beyond that indirect governance becomes necessary, sadly" 14,67284,2019-12-10T23:05:21.987Z,12131,0,13,12,1,0,0,37.6,67193,anon1758400449,anon1753543892,"Here I'll try to work a tad more on the tools and anon2696444391 they are driven by anon2696444391 you are organized, and this is again driven by what your near term and overarching goals are. So on the ground this is NOT going to be a one-size-fits all. Much, much less than say the ""groups of 5"" thing is. Here's anon2696444391 I would approach this in general: 1. Orient yourself. As @anon3379761435 likes to say: ""If you know anon2696444391 to look, you'll almost always **find someone already working on the problem** (or an adjacency - I might add) somewhere."" I'll leave the ""knowing anon2696444391 to look"" part out of scope here, and will only mention that failed historic attempts can be hugely helpful here in my opinion. If you've done this you should have an idea of who are some players in the domain, and you'll likely be able to tell pretty quickly that you want to be ""more like this, less like that"", ""the [well known brand / movement] of [well known issue], for [your less well known issue], ""if X and Y had a child"", ""X with a touch of Y"", or similar. 2. Formulating your goals. I am not sure if it is always advisable to put your goals in writing. I think sometimes it is a must, and at other times it can be the first nail in the coffin. You'll have to decide yourself, and one option is to do it just for yourself privately. In any case I **find that a shorthand for your aims or means**, like mentioned above, can work anon2373157426 well if you understand where and anon2696444391 potential allies can latch onto you. Ambiguity is likely to work for in the early stage, but might cause problems later. 3. Identify dominant dynamics in the field. What I mean here is for example that most of the players in the field of say the *world wide shipping industry* have their own set of motivations (incl. career paths), their views on history, and their own narratives about what future developments are plausible, probable, or likely. Compare this outlook to the *computing hardware, or computing software industry* and you'll see that this is going to be a crucial factor. Again compare this with e.g. the *commercial aviation industry*, where safety and reputation are what most hours of most days are worked on more or less directly - with a currently pretty small competitive landscape. **Your approach must fit the dominant dynamics (though you'd likely best *not* aim at anything dominant, but a linchpin or [leverage point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_leverage_points))**. The best boiled down version of this I know is: [Dave Snowden's Cynefin](https://youtu.be/N7oz366X0-8?t=53) Note that [political alignments also vary drastically across occupations](http://verdantlabs.com/politics_of_professions/) and provide for interesting gradients and sub-groups that can be very fertile ground. Aside: I believe even within pretty small groups you will see the social analogue to an [Helmholtz-Double Layer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_layer_(surface_science)#Development_of_the_(interfacial)_double_layer) appear on the small scale (i.e. around a couple of hundred people). (@anon1753543892 not sure if you've been down that wider [rabbit hole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_Affinities#Theory) yet) Given the above you may also want to reflect on if your project should go ""full steam ahead every day"" (something investors like to see), or e.g. ""lie dormant"" until the right opportunity presents itself - and perhaps anon2696444391 to switch from the former to the latter best. I haven't truly been part of the ""full steam ahead every day"" projects for a good time, and even when I was it was in a generally pretty tame environment (academic research) or I was going solo - so I'll take a pass on that. What I have more experience with is a ""steady remote job"" and ""advanced hobby level projects"". In my experience all of the above is **predicated on the people involved and their fit with the project and each other**. So one of the most crucial factors is to get to know the people involved. An early face to face interaction in a range of somewhat edgy circumstances is perhaps the fastest and most reliable way to get a good idea on this. In a ""slow"" approach you can first find the core team, and then expand it gradually through trusted contacts that get introduced one by one. This puts most ""information digestion stress"" on the new person, so I would strongly recommend a gradual introduction, providing them with context, background info to other people and their relationships and communication preferences. Perhaps also not ""throwing them at the team"" but making a few introductions first, maybe referring to some of those conversations when introduced to the wider team. In a corporate environment I believe this is a process that should totally be flanked by HR and it is a testament to their overall uselessness that this is not the case (if only for the sake of HR gathering insights into internal dynamics). I strongly believe that something @anon3379761435 and Edgeryders are working on (a human readable scaling of conversations in scope and time) will become absolute boiler plate for any kind of ambitious onboarding program (aside: The first two weeks usually decide on your activity level and also largely anon2696444391 long a new employee will stick around eventually. It is ridiculous that this isn't even treated with so much as an afterthought at this point). Shortly after a new person is introduced and starts really working with others there is a usually LOT of info the new person had to push through the channels a) to just establish reliable communication, and b) to push the right info at the right time, which is the reason for the person to be there in the first place. A proper [OKR-system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OKR) is expected to facilitate this in larger real world organizations, but I have seen fail pretty badly in several situations. My expectation is a combination of a social network analysis (who talks to whom, about what, when, through what means, and what is the typical escalation ladder + human commentary) and OKRs (actionable sub-goals) and a yet to be elaborated visual introduction round will have to be created. I say visual mostly because that is the information highway for our species, but that is not to say that vocalization nuances should not be considered important (my endless points about decent audio). Finally I think one part that is completely off the radar at the moment, but I think might be even more crucial than shared meals (I do this a lot via remote connection - and it is pretty cool) is: Smell, i.e. the olfactory dimension ([example paper](https://www.uni-kassel.de/fb4/psychologie/personal/euler/McBurney%20et%20al%20%20chapter%20Engen%20book%20REV%20FIN%20110908.pdf)) and perhaps even memory access (Proust effect). In the short term though I think two things are easily actionable: 1. Decent audio 2. Use more of the screen (beside the face) to convey information. This can be cues like people used at [occupy wall street](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_movement_hand_signals) (where gallant efforts were made to scale convos!) - maybe slightly adapted. Most of that info should avoid text as it is too slow. Pictograms, or even simple photos of you and your background/biography/network defining environments can communicate long stories in seconds, and give good opportunities for tangential conversations. Little anecdotes will make you more memorable, but also risk putting you in a box - so perhaps keep em a anon2488317424 eccentric on purpose? If you have what you are working on, maybe your time management / stack of ""to-dos"" color coded in the background - that can also convey current workload levels without much hassle, and at the same time allow people to offer to contribute. I haven't tried it myself, but I think I should at some time. 3. Make sure you facial expressions can be seen. This is perhaps more important in the beginning and for sensitive topics. If you are in a leadership role, I think it should be mandatory to sanon2696444391 your face whenever you possibly can. At the very least have a placeholder image up, ideally one that reflects your mood or situation. 4. In meetings with more than 3 people, have a chat channel up so people can make specific interventions without disruption. In meetings with more than 8 or so members consider having one member dedicated to servicing that chat channel. 5. Structure meetings with a core part and a ""padding part"" before and after. Tackle adjacent questions, connection issues, small talk, bio-breakes, seat swapping, etc. in the run-up, and use it to have extra time to onboard the new people. Keep some time after the core meeting for the people who might have detail questions of limited relevance. And again help the new people to ease the info stress on them, and allow them to ask ""dumb questions"" in a more private and work-time conscious way. Ideally **record the core part** of the meeting, and make a summary (action points, owners, dates) in the EXACT last 5 (or so) minutes. That will allow peripheral people to open the file, jump directly to the summary, and on that basis decide if they should review other sections of the meeting - in minimum time. 6. Send out abundant optional invites. Optionals should understand that they are more in a listen / peripheral awareness role (can lurk without video, etc.) and should not hi-jack the core agenda unless invited to. Optionals can be included for awareness / info flow / redundancy, but also for vetting purposes. I think a good heuristic is when you send out enough invites that 20% of the attendees are optional on average. It is often better if you have 2 in one meeting, and none in the next - so don't worry too much about the details. Ideally an optional would listen to the previous meeting summary (perhaps during the padding time) if it was someanon2696444391 related. The meeting host may decide to call an optional (invite via phone call) if he/she has not turned down the invitation. 7. **Written notes are awesome** (and in many cases crucial), but should not detract focus off the matter at hand, especially if there are more than 4 people sacrificing their lifetime in a meeting. Dedicated note takers should be praised (and scrutinized), and helped by improving the notes after the call, particularly with external links which can currently only really live in written notes. 8. Simple organizational shortcuts can go a long way. For example if ER had two **default times** for a) 80% general work focused calls, and b) calls for 80% socialization focus - then these could easily be used to e.g. reconnect with people you've met at a recent event. You just fire them one of the two zoom links and times, and ER can keep an ear on the grapevine while becoming more sticky to the general member environment - and allow serendipity into their living room. If it works too well, you just ask people to start a couple of breakout rooms. This way people can keep a far more emotional bond beyond the end of a event like e.g. the one in [Valencia](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/draft-deep-dive-format-agenda-participants/10862) where I'd still have half a dozen smoking action points for example. 9. Many ""Doers don't desktop"". Try using tools that will work on mobile. Also: Most business CEOs don't desktop, but travel a lot. Audio and a concise (but expandable - i.e. linked to primary information) note format win in this situation. I'll try to write the next part about my thoughts on ""speed focused collaboration"" / hackathon style on site work. As I think the majority of work is not going to remain purely remote, one should also consider formats that effectively complement the approach mentioned above." 15,67285,2019-12-10T23:38:06.764Z,12131,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,67266,anon1758400449,anon3197437925,"Yup, I think there is much alignment in what you wrote. Dunbar actually has circles below the 150 number, very close to what you list. Yeah, with regard to the hierarchy stuff - that is a real risk. In my opinion using the ""groups of 5"" to functionally replace a single persons responsibilities you can get a good bit more stuff done. Usually still responsively, reliably and with a better connectedness overall. But I am afraid once you scale into the next layer of 5s you would start getting (increasingly anonymous) hierarchy creeping in again, with all its associated failure modes. So the current bottom line effect of my approach is still pretty limited to the smaller end of the scale. BUT when we have a computer (+ human hybrid) start tracking all the relationships, who knows who, who trusts who, etc. and perhaps even can predict the arc of the project / community needs (e.g. varying team skill sets, attrition rates, age compositions, etc.) one could make things work A LOT better. The computer could manage humans very effectively within our baked in hard limitations of the Dunbar circles, making sure that the necessary networks remain continuous and robust at the various required communication and trust levels. And if you know your [percolation theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percolation_theory) - that could very well be a game-changer. By the way - the military teams of 5 are not an accident either (though I learned that later), again see the linked Dunbar lecture. But I think a perhaps even more interesting analogy are the fanon2945747231rs of the human hand - not least because of the ""opposing"" thumb. It isn't perfect though because I would count the wrist (connection to the rest of the body) as a team member in itself - with the crucial job of connecting the rest of the hand to the wider network (which in reality should be a job done by 2-3 people with a decent amount of turnover). But in that analogy the anon2488317424 pinky is pretty much a dead-weight, which most of the time you keep around because sometimes he's still useful, and cutting it off would just cause a lot of mess and bad blood. Maybe just a anon2488317424 to stigmatizing. ;) So if you have other analogies with good associations, let me hear them." 16,67291,2019-12-11T02:18:13.192Z,12131,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,67076,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"I'll have to go through everything that @anon1758400449 said in a lot of detail to catch all the value inside there … I like bouncing ideas like that b/c it opens up whole new areas of research and experimentation … Now to do that once more, and complete the confusion, I will ask this: ""What is the effect of remote work on the [work spouse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_spouse) relation? Will we see the emergence of long-distance work spouse relationships (LDWSR) within the next 10 years?"" :smile:" 17,67393,2019-12-11T21:28:45.991Z,12131,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,67285,anon3203746736,anon1758400449,"Sam you are one prolific dude. I salute you. And Matt of course is no slouch on that front either. Have good audio is THE no-brainer. And its corollary: a quiet room. The noisy restaurant and such places a real hardship on the others, not to mention oneself. As for optimal meeting arrangements, I can't disagree with what's been written above. I once went to a ""have better meetings"" class where they broke meetings down into 3 roles: host, client and resource. And you have to have all three represented. Any attendee other than a spectator should fall into one of these 3 roles. I found it a helpful way to think about it. The video of the conference in real life was hilarious and all too true. I think we here at ER have dome all of those items, sometimes in the same meeting seems like. The idea of the core and the padded outlier sections - I like that. It feels natural." 18,67395,2019-12-11T21:35:22.384Z,12131,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,67393,anon1758400449,anon3203746736,"I will wear that compliment like a badge! Regarding the core vs padding (before and after), I wonder what would make most sense timing wise: Separate invites or a explanation in the invite itself? Oh that makes me think of a thing I had forgotten: (Mini-)agenda should be in all invites, and ideally a link to the main document (with comment function allowed for all with the link)." 19,67396,2019-12-11T21:41:41.440Z,12131,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,67395,anon3203746736,anon1758400449,"I guess it depends on anon2696444391 tight the time is as to anon2696444391 expansive one can be. Also, some people finding hanging out to be productive and some don't. But there should be an understanding coming in of what to expect. That is a host role." 20,67398,2019-12-11T22:09:56.227Z,12131,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,67076,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Thank you @anon1758400449 and @anon3203746736, this is very helpful :)" 1,66527,2019-12-01T15:09:25.917Z,12061,0,15,14,8,0,0,88.0,66527,anon3237498324,anon3237498324,"Dominic Hofstetter (Climate-KiC) just posted a piece on Medium about the need to re-invent venture capitalism - https://medium.com/in-search-of-leverage/the-challenge-of-redesigning-venture-capital-1127db6f496f The problem he outlines is the current VC model is not well suited to address the need for systemic re-invention of our energy-material system we need. The VC system is set up to wring short term rewards from fast growing tech companies, not invent new industrial systems. --- From the article: The challenge we need to solve is to direct entrepreneurial finance in a way that promises to produce systems-transformative dynamics. Specifically, we must design an approach capable of supporting initiatives that may: * Address no existing market and therefore cannot forecast net cash flows, * Take more than 3–5 years to achieve scale, * Follow non-commercial impact pathways, * Engage the properties of complex adaptive systems (such as [emergence](https://medium.com/disruptive-design/tools-for-systems-thinkers-the-6-fundamental-concepts-of-systems-thinking-379cdac3dc6a)), * Forge unusual partnerships with the public and philanthropic sectors, * Modify the typical *management+board* governance formula, * Choose [legal structures other than](https://medium.com/p/putting-skin-back-into-the-game-fa84551fbe5c?source=email-c0b265d96678--writer.postDistributed&sk=cb47bba450715cc7ad579b9bd7806b00) the limited liability company, and * Generate value beyond what’s captured by today’s accounting standards. How are we going to do this? We don’t know. --- I'm imagining a story like Stross' Accelerando (Max as the new VC) or Gibson's Blue Ant / Bigend series (Bigend, but as a VC not a designer). What happens when they figure these things out? What kinds of companies do they fund and what are the returns? How do they raise their fund and manage their portfolio? Maybe this is the evolution of today's impact investor. Looking for some financial return, but also interested in social and environmental returns. In a future where it's become fashionable for the wealthy investor class to make their money through impact investing, rather than 'dirty' investing, this might be possible. Anyone else interested in developing the story?" 2,67330,2019-12-11T11:08:15.381Z,12061,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,66527,anon3828707713,anon3237498324,maybe @anon4024333396 1,66768,2019-12-03T11:12:21.149Z,12086,0,17,16,4,0,0,53.4,66768,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![communitycalls%20logo%203rd%20dec|690x488](upload://fhdBCSUAQLhjDDyM3JR7YlJ5WN3.png) Dear organisers and participants! We did it! More than 15 inspiring events with great people in almost as many countries! A big thank you to all the organisers and participants! Today at 18:00 Brussels time we open our zoom room to everyone who wants to give some feedback on their experiences of the festival or just want to (re)connect. @anon2682865457, @anon3554387720, @anon3747875924, @anon you are very welcome and please invite some of your participants who you think would be interested in engaging in this conversation. Tuesday the 2nd 18:00 Brussels time: Looking forward to seeing you at: https://zoom.us/j/489971765 If you want calendar reminders, please download and import the following iCalendar (.ics) files to your calendar system. Weekly: https://zoom.us/meeting/uZwkfu6pqT0vVYoNECnUgDF3EfwNQ2Fjhg/ics?icsToken=98tyKu2gpzItG9OTtVztRa0vA9r9b8-xlEd3pY14vxHQBAR1MSbwIcxzYJR1GN-B Please ping participants that you would like to join the call :)" 2,66812,2019-12-03T17:48:41.886Z,12086,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,66768,anon1679055112,anon1753543892,"Sorry this was announced too late for me, I didn't sleep for 30 hours again as well :frowning: ." 3,67180,2019-12-09T12:27:31.403Z,12086,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,66812,anon2860100070,anon1679055112,The next call will be tomorrow. I think that @anon1753543892 has created another page about it. 4,67181,2019-12-09T12:30:13.691Z,12086,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,66768,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Yes, that one is in general about collective intelligence. @anon2860100070 will give a anon2488317424 intro, I will give so info on Edgeryders Semantic Social Network Analysis, which turns this platform itself in a collective intelligence research tool." 1,63201,2019-11-06T15:30:48.772Z,11393,0,9,8,7,0,0,53.8,63201,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,""" Previously, researchers have tried to create adversarial fashion [using patches attached to stiff cardboard,](http://openaccess.thecvf.com/content_CVPRW_2019/papers/CV-COPS/Thys_Fooling_Automated_Surveillance_Cameras_Adversarial_Patches_to_Attack_Person_Detection_CVPRW_2019_paper.pdf) so that the design doesn't distort on soft fabric while the wearer moves. If the design is warped or part of it isn't visible, it becomes ineffective."" https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/evj9bm/adversarial-design-shirt-makes-you-invisible-to-ai" 2,63213,2019-11-06T17:34:11.111Z,11393,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,63201,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,":smiley: No, sorry, no idea... maybe @anon519360058 knows someone?" 3,63216,2019-11-06T18:10:42.516Z,11393,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,63201,anon659222949,anon3828707713,Or @anon4004532087johansson or @anon1292070905 do? 4,65616,2019-11-25T10:38:08.553Z,11393,1,5,4,1,0,0,56.0,63201,anon1292070905,anon3828707713,"I know a designer who has worked extensively with exactly this! Simone Niquille, old tutor and friend of mine. Check out her work: http://technofle.sh/ Here is a wired article about her anti-facial-reco fashion project: https://www.wired.com/2013/10/thwart-facebooks-creepy-auto-tagging-with-these-bizarre-t-shirts/#slideid-253281" 5,67154,2019-12-08T15:37:09.088Z,11393,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,65616,anon3828707713,anon1292070905,Super! Thanks 1,66936,2019-12-04T22:57:14.000Z,12110,0,12,11,13,0,0,97.4,66936,anon2616197748,anon2616197748,"#### _This is a wiki post - anyone can edit it and add links, extra text, and resources. Don't be shy!_ ### The graphic recording from the day, lovingly crafted by Anja Reise -------------- These were key challenges listed in the workshop: ### 1. Lack of tangible incentive to change _Right now, even if there is an incentive to do something, it's not tangible, and more urgent incentives frequently take precedence._ ### 2. Lack of transparency - greenwash vs true sustainability _Many of us don't know anon2696444391 to assess if actions an organisation taking (or indeed stuff we might do) are meaningful, or if they amount to greenwash. We don't know if there things we can measure, or if we even **should** be trying to measure them. If we **have** agreed to measure something, having trustworth numbers is also a a challenge._ ### 3. It's difficult to see the impact of your decisions _the feedback loop is often very slow, and even in places where people try to track the environmental impact of what they do, because reporting might happen yearly, it's difficult to learn about what works and what doesn't_ ### 4. Lack of knowledge of effectiveness _Even if you **do** accept that you can't see the impact of something, many of us still have no idea what decisions have impact, and which ones don't._ ### Links and resources There's some good work coming from Doteveryone and Further discussion on the limits of user centred design, for complex problems https://medium.com/doteveryone/putting-users-first-is-not-the-answer-to-everything-dd05b9f11b5 https://medium.com/@anon ### Going from product design to service design https://medium.com/weareholon/the-servitization-canvas-25444ffd5294 Deliberate one planet co-design of living spaces - with service design firm Holon in Barcelona: https://medium.com/weareholon/the-everyday-of-cooperative-housing-la-borda-de-can-batll%C3%B3-1d123955ae35 Where service design ends and system change begins https://medium.com/fieldnotes-by-sam-rye/towards-targeted-systems-change-7f4db6febb51 https://medium.com/@anon > And yet, if we look at the language, tools and practices that are commonly applied in the social and public sector, they are largely founded on a very different premise. More often than not, they reinforce an unhelpful ‘producer-consumer’ distinction. Some actors (organisations/experts) are seen to ‘produce’ (innovate, design, deliver) value, whereas others (‘beneficiaries’ or ‘users’) are seen to ‘consume’ it. ### Resources for thinking more widely than user centred design There's some good writing from Design Dialogues, with links to some new tools, including a systems design toolkit to facilitate discussions. It's free to download and in use in a number of larger organisations. https://designdialogues.com/systemic-design-toolkit/ " 2,67145,2019-12-08T11:16:56.619Z,12110,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,66936,anon3828707713,anon2616197748,"Super helpful, thank you Chris and everyone who contributed. Am looking at this from the perspective of someone who will need to recruit design help for a new service & stack of tools. In a way it is much simpler to make space for the above when you are setting up something new. It will require everyone being willing to put in a lot of effort to make it happen at the beginning. I guess a question is anon2696444391 you would bake that into the process in a way that doesnt burn everyone out from the added complexity. Comes down to design pattern for setting up new businesses and business models in a climate emergency. Might do something around this in early 2020." 1,67092,2019-12-06T15:37:05.028Z,12135,0,11,10,7,0,0,82.2,67092,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"https://youtu.be/rHtBUxgi-MY Might be something for Sweden based community members and others looking to partner with them @anon2682865457 @anon2868057530 @anon3591841007 @anon3005461236 @anon1251979254 @anon1753543892 @anon659222949 @anon" 2,67119,2019-12-07T09:19:20.110Z,12135,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,67092,anon659222949,anon3828707713,"Indeed, I have been looking into this, possibly for the new Dreams development. It could also be relevant to apply for funding for one of the SenseStack developments. I have been talking to potential partners. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/rewrite-of-dreams-for-multi-tenancy-and-wider-adoption/11476" 1,65833,2019-11-26T11:37:01.386Z,11928,0,7,6,4,0,0,21.4,65833,anon1728087484,anon1728087484,"**Vem är du? Vad jobbar du med och varför är du på Internetdagarna?** Väldigt bra fråga! Är intresserad av ämnet. Jag har lyssnat, igår lyssnade jag på framtidens sociala medier och idag på den som handlade om “är du digital, lilla vän?”. Arbetar som bibliotekschef. Mycket som handlar om digitalisering och kunskap hos bibliotekarier. De digitala verktyg vi har på biblioteket ska våra bibliotekarier kunna. Det är det första. Vi har digitala verktyg som vi inte kan förmedla till våra besökare. Strömmande film, e-böcker eller att använda bibliotekets sökfunktioner. Vi har Digital Först också. Vi måste börja med oss själva för att kunna förmedla till andra. **När blev du sist hoppfull eller glad över internet eller dess framtid?** Varje dag. Vilken källa till kunskap och framför allt blir avståndet manon4205961763n människor mindre och mindre på internet. Just att man kan använda det var som. Inlednanon2945747231n till konferensen: Man kan använda det till att jobba eller umgås. Närheten. Alla har det med sig på fickan i stort sett. Slängde vår bra böckers lixkon för några veckor sedan på 35 band. Jag har inte öppnat den någon gång. Med tanke på vad de kostar styck, det är rätt många tusen man slänger som man aldrig använt. Det har alla på fickan idag. **När gjorde internet eller dess utveckling dig arg, rädd eller bekymrad?** Mycket med fake news eller man använder det för att skada andra. Både via fake news, men också när man har dolda syften med sina försök att träffa människor. Sedan också naiviteten med människor som läser eller tittar på det som finns på nätet, att inte reflektera över om det som skrivs är sant eller inte. Man köper allt som skrivs, utan att egentligen reflektera över om det finns någon sanning i det. **name:** anon1728087484" 2,65854,2019-11-26T12:52:02.612Z,11928,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,65833,anon659222949,anon1728087484,"English translation. Disclaimer, rough translation made by Hugi with AI support: **Who are you? What are you working on and why are you on the Internet Days?** Very good question! I am interested in the subject. Yesterday I listened to the social media of the future and today to the one who was about ""are you digital, anon2488317424 friend?"". I work as a library manager, with digitalization and libraries. Our librarians will be able to use the digital tools we have at the library. That's the first thing. We have digital tools but don't know anon2696444391 to pass them on to our visitors. Streaming movies, ebooks or using the library's search features. We must begin with ourselves in order to convey to others. **When did you last become hopeful or happy about the internet or its future?** Every day. What source of knowledge and, above all, is the distance between people less and less on the Internet. Just that you can use it was like. Introduction to the conference: You can use it to work or socialize. **When did the internet or its development make you angry, scared or worried?** A lot of fake news or you use it to hurt others. Both via fake news, but also when you have hidden purposes with your attempts to meet people. Then also the naivety of people reading or watching what is on the web, not reflecting on whether what is written is true or not." 3,67112,2019-12-06T18:21:51.663Z,11928,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,65833,anon1732761404,anon1728087484,"So is the idea here that we can use any of the official EU languages, or that if possible we use at least English as a base-language (perhaps with other language additions)?" 1,54778,2019-06-09T17:29:48.502Z,10110,1,25,24,4,0,0,180.0,54778,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Dear community members, you are having amazing and insightful conversations here exchanging long essays as well as short comments. However, sometimes you just need to talk to your discussion partners directly, hear their voice and inanon2863106368ation and react in real-time to each other to get to the next step. Since we are a very international community it can be challenging to meet up for a coffee in real life. However, we can do the next best thing and organise topical community calls in which you can start to get to know and react to each other and your ideas more direct. I would encourage you to use this thread to suggest the topics and people with whom you would like to have a community call as well as the times that would usually work for you. *Even better: If you would be up to take the topical lead on a community call. We from anon1577251828 can help to take care of the organising and sharing.* ### So, what would you like to talk about (almost) face to face? Community Call Schedule (every second Tuesday 18:00-19:00 Brussels time): * 23rd of July: “Things about the Internet of Things” * 6th of August: “Moderation & Mediation versus Censorship & Tone Policing - keeping people safe from ALL kinds” * 20th of August: “What is and anon2696444391 to participate in the Edgeryders NGI Festival #1” (join the call here: https://zoom.us/j/592769960) * 3rd of September: “What is and anon2696444391 to participate in the Edgeryders NGI Festival #2” (join the call here: https://zoom.us/j/560175544) * 17th of September: “Presenting the core concepts of your Edgryder NGI Festival Contribution” * 1st Oct: TBA (suggestions welcome) * 10th Dec: ""Coming together for Collective Intelligence"" ( **https://zoom.us/j/489971765**)" 2,55089,2019-06-13T15:35:36.237Z,10110,1,20,19,1,0,0,59.0,54778,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"The calls can also be useful tools to plan real live events. Therefore we will have one to plan the: ### New Internet tech, equality and justice Event this event will take place in fall and is currently planed for in this thread: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/new-internet-tech-equality-and-justice-a-possible-event-in-the-fall/10068/2 To get some decisions and discussions done faster let's have a community call about it next month. More information and invitations to those already engaged in the discussion will follow soon" 3,55449,2019-06-19T16:56:33.245Z,10110,0,20,19,1,1,0,9.0,55089,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:2, topic:10110""] ### ew Internet tech, equality and justice Event this event will take place in fall and is currently planed for in this thread: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/new-internet-tech-equality-and-justice-a-possible-event-in-the-fall/10068/2 To get some decisions and discussions done faster let’s have a community call about it next mon [/quote] Super @anon3093654461 joining this? Maybe also invite your colleagues from Digityser?" 4,56691,2019-07-15T05:02:17.444Z,10110,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,54778,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"The next two upcoming community calls will be: ## 23rd of July 18:00 to 19:00 Bussel time: ## ""Things about the Internet of Things"" *Featuring an interview and in-depth discussion with our amazing fellow [Peter Bihr](http://peterbihr.com/) (@anon **[Follow this link](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-internet-of-humans-fellows-interviews-and-podcasts-with-peter-bihr/10423/11) for the [audio and text transcript](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-internet-of-humans-fellows-interviews-and-podcasts-with-peter-bihr/10423/11).** ## 6th of August 18:00 to 19:00 Brussels time: ## “ *Moderation & Mediation versus Censorship & Tone Policing - keeping people safe from ALL kinds* ”. *Featuring @anon ## looking forward to great discussions!" 5,56943,2019-07-21T18:20:17.557Z,10110,0,13,12,2,0,0,27.6,56691,anon1608948641,anon1753543892,"to get your ideas started for the call in august, I've just posted an attempted glossary: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/managing-communications-an-attempted-glossary/10391" 6,57568,2019-08-05T11:35:35.661Z,10110,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,54778,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"## Sanon2696444391 your face at the Edgeryders NGI Festival! The coming community calls after tomorrows “ *Moderation & Mediation versus Censorship & Tone Policing - keeping people safe from ALL kinds* ” will focus on anon2696444391 to co-design and participate in the Edryders NGI Festival so it offers the best possible platform and experience for all of us! https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-festival-november-19-29-invitation-to-participate-in-co-designing-the-next-gen-internet-track-of-the-program/10450 ## 20th of August: ""What is and anon2696444391 to participate in the Edgeryders NGI Festival #1"" (join the call here: https://zoom.us/j/592769960) This is the first opportunity to directly ask away: What is the festival about? What can I learn? How can I participate? Who is going to be there? How and where will it happen? By participating in this call you will also have the opportunity to shape the development of the festival in a direction that interests you most. ## 3rd of September: ""What is and anon2696444391 to participate in the Edgeryders NGI Festival #2"" (join the call here: https://zoom.us/j/560175544) Take the opportunity to ask if you missed the first call or specify your questions from before and further shape the face of the festival. ## 17th of September ""Presenting the core concepts of your Edgryder NGI Festival Contribution"" At this point, it is time to start presenting each other our programme and the ideas concrete participation ideas before starting to write treads about them and prepare for the final presentations and interactions during the festival. If you already have questions, feels free to ask away here and @anon" 7,57569,2019-08-05T11:36:31.178Z,10110,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,57568,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"ping @anon3203746736, @anon2945747231, @anon3828707713, @anon" 8,57570,2019-08-05T11:44:37.380Z,10110,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,54778,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,@anon3203746736 anon2696444391 about adding links to the recording of the past calls in this listing in the first post here? 9,57571,2019-08-05T11:52:42.595Z,10110,1,12,11,2,0,0,32.4,54778,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"@anon3352795496 we would love to have you at the festival, could you maybe join on the 20th of august or 3rd of September? Also: would you be interested in featuring in the call on the 1st of October and elaborate on this: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-tech-workshop/10191?" 10,57586,2019-08-05T14:50:40.452Z,10110,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,57570,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,Sure. Can you do it? I only have my phone here because my laptop charging cord is up at my house and I won’t be there until anon2863106368ight and this phone doesn’t link things easily.Also I assume you mean the three recordings I just edited in the past couple of weeks because those of the only calls I recorded or even know about being recorded. 11,57916,2019-08-13T12:47:40.577Z,10110,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,57586,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,"yes, those are the ones I am referring to, but I do not know where to find them to link them myself" 12,58373,2019-08-26T10:38:54.290Z,10110,0,9,8,1,0,0,51.8,57571,anon3352795496,anon1753543892,"Hi @anon1753543892, I replied in another thread too. But would be great to be involved in the festival and could come to the community call on the 3rd of September and 1st of October too if that's when you'd like me to elaborate on the deep green tech workshop. Thanks" 13,67088,2019-12-06T15:04:31.842Z,10110,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,54778,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Current next call: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/10th-of-december-anon1577251828-community-call-coming-together-for-collective-intelligence/12133" 14,67089,2019-12-06T15:05:12.826Z,10110,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,54778,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,Please add suggestions for topics and featured speakers/interviewees for the next calls here! 1,67087,2019-12-06T15:00:29.517Z,12133,0,10,9,10,0,0,82.0,67087,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![communitycalls%20logo%2010th%20dec|690x488](upload://nAC5Q7VkWOC5XFQOiJFm3mycYQF.png) Coming together for Collective Intelligence! **After the festival, we are back to topical community calls!** Since **""Collective Intelligence""** has been a big topic the last few days and also offers us the opportunity to explain Edgeryders Semantic Social Network Analysis a bit we decided to make this the topic of the next call on Tuesday the 10th of December. **Looking forward to seeing you 10th of DEC, 18:00-19:00 Brussels time at: [https://zoom.us/j/489971765 ](https://zoom.us/j/489971765)** If you want calendar reminders, please download and import the following iCalendar (.ics) files to your calendar system. Weekly: [https://zoom.us/meeting/uZwkfu6pqT0vVYoNECnUgDF3EfwNQ2Fjhg/ics?icsToken=98tyKu2gpzItG9OTtVztRa0vA9r9b8-xlEd3pY14vxHQBAR1MSbwIcxzYJR1GN-B ](https://zoom.us/meeting/uZwkfu6pqT0vVYoNECnUgDF3EfwNQ2Fjhg/ics?icsToken=98tyKu2gpzItG9OTtVztRa0vA9r9b8-xlEd3pY14vxHQBAR1MSbwIcxzYJR1GN-B) Please ping community members that you would like to join the call and send the link to others in your network who are interested in the topic :slight_smile: @anon2860100070, for example, agreed to introduce her perspective in 5 minutes for this call, I will quickly present the SSNA, do some other members of the community and maybe specifically theses discussions also present something? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/open-collective-intelligence-labs-call-for-mentors/11661 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/applying-for-the-h2020-collective-intelligence-call-looking-for-operational-partners-and-collaborators/11974 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/collective-intelligence-in-anon1577251828-the-big-picture-seven-years-on/10113 Also, from now onwards, as mentioned we are going back to topical community calls. If you want a specific topic to be addressed or would even be available for an interview to introduce it/know someone we should invite for such an interview, please post your suggestions here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-calls-lets-talk-almost-face-to-face/10110 I will shortly start updating the CC plan there :)" 1,66679,2019-12-02T15:56:44.683Z,12077,1,12,11,8,0,0,77.4,66679,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"This is a draft version of the *Self Hosting, Sanon2696444391 and Tell* session at RE;Web ## Attending * Linus * Isak * keks * @anon2682865457 How do you host a scuttlebutt pub? What’s the main difference between a pub and a private user? The only difference is that the public key is public. What do you host: Linus, I host my own email, a few websites and a team speak server, like mumble but I don’t Keks: Website and Scuttlebutt server. Calendar NextCloud on a Raspberry Pi at home. Because I don’t want my date in a place that’s not my own. I can connect to the VPN server on my virtual server via raspberry pi, computer and phone. The reason for this is that he doesn’t have a steady IP at home. He also did not want to have his NextCloud publicly available. NextCloud is a suite for hosting. It’s like google drive and contacts and calendar and it’s open source. How configurable is it to use NextCloud? NextCloud is really slow on Raspberry Pi, takes like 2 sec to load a page. He only uses the desktop service, not the browser version. There are multiple ways of running things that you want to just run in the background. A common way of doing this on a Linux machine is to just run “System CTL”. How do you run stuff that doesn’t end when ssh ends? Something with T-mugs[t-mux], which was not a good idea apparently. Instead he’s doing something with SNAP, which can install software packages, in a contained way since they don’t effect the rest of the system. Docker is a framework for building and running and managing containers. A cointainer contains a program so it can run the way it needs without interacting with the rest of the system Keks doesn’t like managing servers, that’s why he works on SSB There’s a good tutorial on anon2696444391 to make a NAS based on raspberry pi. The only reason people use cloud services is because they want their data to synch. Why not just synch the data itself, such as with NextCloud or with Ssb/DAT Is it not possisible to set up DAT on my computer and a raspberry pi or something to use it as a NAS? Yes, it’s doable. But it probably works most of the time. Is that enough? That’s the main problem with peer-to-peer stuff, it’s not always working? Why can I not run it on IPFS? Everytime you change any kind of data the ID of the data hcanges so then you have to synchronize the data changes. So then you also end up having the same problem as with DAT, the two computers don’t find each other. I heard hosting email yourself is really difficult? Sending is really tricky. I have to rely on my ISP to get the emails through. They have their own service just to deal with emails, so I use that service to send emails out but I recieve on my own." 2,66693,2019-12-02T17:22:33.378Z,12077,2,9,8,1,1,0,31.8,66679,anon2197402769,anon2868057530,"[quote=""anon2868057530, post:1, topic:12077""] How do you run stuff that doesn’t end when ssh ends? Something with T-mugs[t-mux], which was not a good idea apparently. [/quote] I am not sure in anon2696444391 far you want/need answers and hints in this topic, but running stuff decoupled from ssh connection is often/traditionally done using the program `screen`. Ubuntus (and probably other distributions) ship the server installations with `byobu`, basically a very fancy configuration for `screen`. So: ssh into the machine, byobu and hit some fancy key combinations to ""disconnect"" from the byobu session before you log out of you ssh session. Next time, log in again, start byobu again and be immediately where you last left off." 3,66695,2019-12-02T17:27:09.572Z,12077,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,66693,anon2868057530,anon2197402769,@anon2197402769 — I would have suggested the same should I have been participating in that session. This session was requested by either Linus or Isak (@anon2682865457 may remember which one) and I'll see if I can tag the relevant person in this reply later on to close out the idea. Thanks! 4,67041,2019-12-05T19:29:04.667Z,12077,1,5,4,2,0,0,46.0,66693,anon1448524235,anon2197402769,"Hi, Linus (@anon1448524235) here :slight_smile:. Our discussions during the session with regard to tmux/screen was that we saw this as a somewhat ""hacky"" solution. I think what we agreed upon was that using e.g. systemd service files, docker containers, or some other process manager was preferable to using just a detached screen/tmux session, since this allows automatic restart in case of failures, which a screen (or tmux) session will not provide." 5,67043,2019-12-05T21:27:41.032Z,12077,0,4,3,1,0,0,20.8,67041,anon2197402769,anon1448524235,"Hi Linus! Okay, aggree. It really depends what you want to achieve (one-shot vs service; e.g. compressing a large number of files and directories - which can take long - should be done in screen, while running a webserver should be a service)." 1,61010,2019-10-09T13:31:53.917Z,11070,0,46,45,403,0,0,2024.2,61010,anon2616197748,anon2616197748,"![Edgeryders-Fest-FB-1200x628-service%20design-01|690x361](upload://yl57Snq3fNit3blmhPeu6anQwVo.png) [date=2019-11-29 timezone=""Europe/Brussels""] → [date=2019-11-29 timezone=""Europe/Berlin""] **Location:** Berlin **Organiser**: Chris Adams, anon1251979254 Hing _Our climate is changing, kids are striking for the future every Friday, and put simply, our house is on fire._ _How can we respond as practitioners designing and delivering the services people rely on? And what skills will we need that we don’t have, and need to invest in learning?_ _We’ll need more than hope and courage if we want to rise to the scale of the challenge facing us - we’ll need to invest in specific skills, and learn to use an expanded vocabulary that includes concepts related to climate, carbon, and equity._ _Join our workshop in Berlin on Friday 29th to figure out what service design might look like in world of net-zero, and identify what we’ll need to know as professionals to get there._ You can register here: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/ --------- ## The general plan: We'll have a slide deck with the running order on the day, but here's the pictorial, short version: We'll wrap up, listing where in the stage of a project these different tools and approaches can be used to make changes to anon2696444391 we work. ## Where we're running this workshop: We have a space on the ground floor, near Spacebase in Kreuzberg. Here's the address: - Muskauer Straße 24, Berlin _Don't worry, we'll be sending more specific directions to attendees_ -------- # What do digital services in a world of net-zero look like ? We increasingly see service design as a tool for governments, companies and the third sector to help people meet needs they might have, and rethink anon2696444391 we structure organisations to support them. In fact some, like [Matt Edgar ](https://blog.mattedgar.com/2015/05/12/most-of-government-is-mostly-service-design-most-of-the-time-discuss/)have gone further:: > Most of government is mostly service design most of the time. Great strides have been made, in making services more legible to end users, but also deliver the required outcomes more effectively, often costing less to do so. But in 2019, and a world where our climate imposes far reaching changes to anon2696444391 we live, we'll also likely far reaching changes to anon2696444391 services are delivered to people, with new consequences we're not used to dealing with. # How do we avoid the unintended consequences in a world of binding legal carbon reduction targets? If we listen to the science, and follow the trends of carbon reductions being written into law, like we saw with the UK, and Denmark, and New York this year, we have a significant changes ahead of us in anon2696444391 we deliver services, as we won't have the resources available to us that we used to. And an environment where we have constrained resources, it's easy to imagine us ending up with needing to radically redesign services to fit these constraints. Right now, the the scale of the reductions needed are so huge, and because we already have a bias towards what we can already measure, it's not hard to imagine people using metrics like the _cost per transaction_ to set the parameters service designers have to work within. We already see it in some countries where there is a developed service design industry:
![41|690x520](upload://fRK9mAxtNqObEmFU4wU7T3NF4sG.png) It's also relatively simple to shift from measuring cost in money to cost in carbon. For example the [Office of National Statistics in the UK already measures things like carbon intensity for different sectors][ons], to have proxy figures for CO2 emissions. If by law you are compelling to reduce emissions, and you know that expenditure in a given sector emits a set about of emissions for every 10k of spend, you have implicit budgets already set. [ons]: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/bulletins/greenhousegasintensityprovisionalestimatesuk/2017 There's a danger in this approach, that we end up leaving great swathes of people behind - while this approach is easy to measure and manage, it's also a very blunt instrument, especially when within industry, we know that our knowledge about anon2696444391 to do _almost anything in a measurably low carbon way_ is so poor. ### What can we use to explore the impacts of service design to highlight unintended consuquences and risks early? So, one goal is workshop is partly to explore what _is_ out there, to come up with a vocabulary to talk about service design, so we can talk about reducing carbon emissions in anon2696444391 we work, so we have names for patterns the same way when we talk about _channel shifting_, we know it entails. But there is also a second goal of being able to talk about the trade-offs we make when doing so, so we can avoid the unintended consequences of anon2696444391 we might work. Finally, there is a need to help share knowledge about what kinds of tools or probes are effective in reaching these first two goals ## Prior work we might discuss, or share experiences of using ### Inspiration from industrial product design There are tools and frameworks for product design, to help us understand the non-monetary impacts of what we build. Below is a _Materials, Energy, People Matrix_, proposed by [Dr Isabel Ordonez](https://research.chalmers.se/en/person/imaria), as a tool based on the more common [MET (Material, Energy Toxicity) matrix](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/MET_Matrix) used in industrial design education. It's designed to help guide a systematic review of the impacts of a making a product, in each use-phase of it's existence, and can be used for a very quick [life cycle analysis/assessment](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Life-cycle_assessment). It's a useful framework for thinking about the impact of products, and it share the same approach of splitting the use of a product that journey maps, and experience maps like below, that we have for service design. ### Comparable tools in service design We already have some tools that help us talk about phases of use or experience when we think about designing services. But if there are few tools to support discussion of the environmental or social impacts the way a MEP matrix might, discourse and experience reports are even rarer. Also, while user-centred design is increasingly common, we have few tools for designing for people who are not the _primary_ users of services, a key consideration when designing for the wider environment. For example, Airbnb is a great example of user-centred design for the end user. It's a less successful example of design for the neighbour of a person hosting an apartment, or less visible people, like the cleaners and other workers who are also part of the supply chain. One possible way to frame this has been the citizen - city continuum proposed by anon2071999133 Hill when describing anon2696444391 we design services in future. ![11|690x299](upload://ewPvucnh9asn8cH7fFsd3ek1O4k.png) Another visual model, is is Stewart Brand's pace layers, initially used for architecture, to help architects think about the changes they might make to a building, to make the space better suited for it intended purpose. Similar to anon2696444391 you might design with these pace layers in mind when designing an architectural intervention in a space, you might do something similar when designing services. You might deliberately, and explicitly make changes to a service in ways that refer to different layers, given a finite budget of financial and social capital. ## Possible outputs from the workshop #### 1. A greater understanding where we need to describe and create patterns, so we have the words to talk about service design in the context of carbon reductions. A gap analysis informed by experience reports from practitioners, about what are the key issues needed to explore - this might confirm the initial ideas in this workshop, or bring up other key ideas related to service design in a climate emergency. _**Workshop note:** An activity like [1-2-4-All][] from Liberating structures would be a tried and tested, well documented way to get rich feedback from a mixed group of participatants when looking to answer a specific question_ [1-2-4-All]: http://www.liberatingstructures.com/1-1-2-4-all/ _1-2-4-All can be run very quickly, but often around 40mins to an hour is set aside to explore a single question_ #### 2. A survey of the existing activities, frameworks and tools available to designers, and where they are useful. This would help understand which questions the tools and frameworks we have available are suited to answering, which ones they aren't. Being able to check these common tools we know against the key challenges identified in the first output would let give us an idea of what new tools might look like. _**Workshop note:** you might use an activity like [post-up] in groups to generate a list of the tools and frameworks, represented by sticky-notes, before removing duplicates in a shared list created by combining the groups._ _You might then plot these on some kind of visual axis, or diagram for where they are effective, like the ones presented above from user - city continuum from anon2071999133 Hill, or the pace layers Steward Brand, or another relevant model._ _This would provide the basis for creating the next output._ _Depending on anon2696444391 much time you might allow for discussion, anon2696444391 many groups you work in, and anon2696444391 large a shared list is, this might take between 30-90 minutes_ #### 3. Some visual representation of the issues and which tools described might be useful. Earlier designers and thinkers have explored questions like this before - their diagrams or visual models are useful tools, and spending time to sketching out some ideas during the day, that might build on this may be similarly useful. This will highlight directions for future research, or development of prototype tools to aid in discussions. _**Workshop note:** Once the groups have had a chance to explore the issues, and try using some existing visual models or diagrams, using an approach like design studio, or crazy 8's to come up with a large number low fidelity visual models or diagrams, before refining and reducing these to a smaller number of higher quality diagrams would help create with the creation of future tools, mental models or frameworks, to share, and try out in future projects._ _A design studio exercise like this might typically take between 30-60 mins_ ### Related projects: https://medium.com/@anon https://www.nesta.org.uk/blog/welcome-sharetown/ https://medium.com/dark-matter-and-trojan-horses/the-city-is-my-homescreen-317673e0f57a # Wishlist _Which skills would we like to have in the room?_ - Service design skills, particularly working in public sector in Europe, and private sector - Policy design and experience, particularly for delivering carbon reductions in government services - Digital skills, for implementing digitally mediated aspects of a service, like building digital platforms designed to support a channel shift away from manual ones that relied on paper - Skills and experience at working with vulnerable groups (or people from those groups themselves), often impacted by the unintended consequences of people taking steps to 'green' a service. _Are there specific organisations whose contributions would be helpful?_ - The folks behind the Global Design Jam Series have experience facilitating events, and are often staffed by professional service designers - There is a unit at TU Berlin focussed on “sustainable digitalisation” - their contributions would be useful - Groups like Tactical tech or Engine Room, have experience working with groups who are often vulnerable, and marginalised, and have put work into helping organisations understand anon2696444391 their efforts might unintentionally harm the people they are trying to help - In Berlin, groups who are working to build digital services that displace more polluting alternatives would be useful to have present, as they can talk about the trade-offs they need to make, when operating commercially. Examples might be mobility services companies like the ones running Coup, Emmy, and so on # Questions to explore - What do digital services in a world of net-zero look like ? - How do we avoid the unintended consequences in a world of binding legal carbon reduction targets? - What can we use to explore the impacts of service design to highlight unintended consequences and risks early?
# Frequently asked questions ### How do I get an invitation/ticket to this workshop? **Complete the registration form: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/** ### How is this event being organised? This event, and the festival it is part of, is coordinated on the anon1577251828 platform (where you are now) and co-curated through a series of community video calls. We have allocated a collaboratively managed budget for the festival and operate on a solidarity basis. Participants who need some financial support to organise or be able to participate in the festival are eligible provided they contribute towards making it a meaningful and generative experience for all - in the run up to, during and/or after the event. If you would like to join us but are unsure as to anon2696444391 to contribute, don’t worry. Create an [anon1577251828 account](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login), then [tell us a bit about yourself here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you) and we will guide you along from there. ### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png) ### Does getting involved mean I endorse the funders views or actions? No. What you are doing is contributing to an open consultation on the topic of anon2696444391 to build a next generation of internet infrastructure, technologies, business models etc that promotes the wellbeing of humans and the natural environment. The consultation methodology is designed in such a way as to allow for diversity of views, premises, disciplines, themes and contexts. We employ open notebook science principles and the results will be presented in the form of a research report accessible to everyone after the event. You can follow the process, review the methodology and open source tech we are using and engage directly with the research and coordination team here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/workspace ### What is the code of conduct? It is important to us that everyone in the room feels welcomed and safe; if you have any particular concerns or needs just send me a PM here on the platform or write to [anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu](mailto:anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu) . The Edgeryders online platform technology and activities are intended for people to cooperate within and across projects trying to build a better world. The word “better” has here a fairly broad range of meaning. These [Community Guidelines](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/netiquette/45) are here to help you understand what it means to be a member of Edgeryders. Don’t forget that your use of Edgeryders is subject to these Community Guidelines and our [Terms of Service](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/id/44). ### What happens with my data? You can read about our [Terms of Use and Privacy Policy here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/terms-of-use-and-privacy-policy/44). Also: * [Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016 on the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data, and repealing Directive 95/46/EC (General Data Protection Regulation) (Text with EEA relevance)](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.119.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:119:TOC) * [Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0046) * [Handbook on European Data Protection directive](http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Handbook_data_protection_ENG.pdf) * [European Commission website - Protection of personal data](http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/)" 2,61011,2019-10-09T13:44:22.165Z,11070,1,24,23,2,0,0,34.8,61010,anon3828707713,anon2616197748,"hi @anon2616197748 now that your proposal is up on the platform, here are some proposed next steps for anon2696444391 we can involve more people in contributing to developing this workshop (and the broader conversation of which it is a part). The simplest way is to plug into the distributed collaboration process through which the comms and community management crews are coordinating. I am following this process for [my workshop on Ai and Justice](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326) and it is working really well. 1. Update your event description above with the following: * Add a question that you want to answer through the session * Add an Faq Section (you can copy paste the one on my workshop description) * Add a description of the format. if you can make it a bit interactive or identify a specific methodology you will be using that’s great. *Feel free to ask if you need help with this* 2. Make it easy for us to promote it: * Give @anon1753543892 photos/visuals + statements/quotes she can use to customise design for a flyer and for a header for this event (as part of the festival) 3. See what you think of this approach to one on one outreach for getting good input to help you develop the session, and the broader discussion you wish to build around the topics of your fellowship: * You send emails with to people you think can contribute to this discussion with personalised invitation using content from the one I forwarded you as a template/model * If they agree you can forward them to a member of Edgeryders staff (@anon2945747231 for now) who then does the interview & transcribes content, and helps them to get on platform. You would need to agree with her on what questions you would like to ask… 4. Read the articles posted by the contributers and write a summary. Perhaps you can also draw help from the data analysis team to make visualisations that can help you synthesise what is there and share it back with a nice visual graph. If this is something you want to explore, the person to talk to is @anon2559300400. What do you think, works?" 3,61097,2019-10-10T07:12:28.412Z,11070,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,61011,anon2616197748,anon3828707713,"Hi Nadia! Thanks for posting this up, and outlining the format you need. I'll be able to flesh more fully from Oct 16th, but I'll have a start from now." 4,61996,2019-10-22T17:08:54.997Z,11070,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,61010,anon1251979254,anon2616197748,Hey @anon1753543892 - quick question which address would we send the invoices for the workshop? 5,61997,2019-10-22T17:12:03.157Z,11070,2,20,19,1,0,0,19.0,61996,anon1753543892,anon1251979254,"@anon3828707713 and @anon2794261635, to which address do the festival invoices go?" 6,62042,2019-10-23T09:35:42.581Z,11070,0,21,20,1,0,0,39.2,61997,anon2794261635,anon1753543892,"I can upload those, @anon1251979254 you can send it to anon2794261635@anon1577251828.eu" 7,62062,2019-10-23T11:37:57.183Z,11070,0,21,20,2,0,0,29.2,61010,anon3828707713,anon2616197748,"@anon850704935 could you make the Edgeryders Facebook event for this to make it easier for us to invite people, and then invite @anon1251979254 as co-host if that is ok with you both?" 8,62190,2019-10-24T14:48:33.771Z,11070,1,21,20,1,0,0,29.2,61010,anon1251979254,anon2616197748,Thanks @anon3828707713 @anon850704935 my facebook is https://www.facebook.com/katrin.ohing I can also see if @anon2616197748 would like to add his facebook too. 9,62195,2019-10-24T14:53:51.983Z,11070,1,22,21,1,0,0,14.4,61997,anon1251979254,anon1753543892,Thanks @anon2794261635 Do they not need to have a postal address attached though? 10,62212,2019-10-24T16:07:43.591Z,11070,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,62195,anon2794261635,anon1251979254,Please refer to the instructions for invoicing here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/invoice-payment-process/7394#heading--2-4 11,62229,2019-10-24T18:59:56.564Z,11070,0,20,19,3,0,0,19.0,61010,anon1753543892,anon2616197748,"Hello @anon1251979254 and @anon850704935 here are the flyer files for this event: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XjTQ60WPIQwBJefApBMJpeONtE02CUGY @anon1251979254, please check the date! Also, uploaded one of the flyers as a header to this post ![Edgeryders-Fest-FB-1200x628-service%20design-01|690x361](upload://bpygPmWOUmEPfkoZrgj8eSSSTwq.png) ![EdgeRyders-Insta-service%20design-01|552x690](upload://tjmivsOSUQEZpaOoEl5SEpnwcFi.png)" 12,62292,2019-10-25T14:04:56.788Z,11070,0,19,18,1,0,0,8.8,62190,anon1251979254,anon1251979254,@anon850704935 I've just spoken to @anon2616197748 and he's said his facebook is https://www.facebook.com/anon2616197748 but is about to jump on a plane so cant tell you that himself 13,62295,2019-10-25T14:29:48.818Z,11070,1,19,18,1,0,0,28.8,61010,anon2616197748,anon2616197748,"Hey folks - hope all is well with you - I'm finally resurfacing after anon2373157426 an October. I hate to be _that guy_ to ask here, but I see 28th listed on this thread, and I wanted to check: Is it a _real_ pain to have this on the Friday afternoon on *Friday, Nov 29th* instead or Thursday the 29th? I think it opens up a few more options venue-wise, after speaking to @anon1251979254 to get catch up after getting married this week. I'm also happy to co-host the facebook event. I'm @anon2616197748 on that site." 14,62346,2019-10-27T22:18:41.655Z,11070,0,19,18,1,0,0,8.8,62295,anon1753543892,anon2616197748,"hej @anon2616197748, Congratulations!!!!!! Amazing :slight_smile: No problem with changing the date now from our side as long as it works out on your side. Do I understand correctly that the new date is the 29th of November, on a Friday? Just confirm this again and I will change your flyers tomorrow evening :) @anon850704935, in case you already made the event page, heads up for the date change!" 15,62385,2019-10-28T14:21:05.240Z,11070,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,61010,anon2616197748,anon2616197748,"Hi @anon1753543892 - yes. The new date would be: Friday 29th November. Thanks for checking." 16,62495,2019-10-29T16:28:17.602Z,11070,1,20,19,1,0,0,29.0,61010,anon1753543892,anon2616197748,"Changed the date: ![Edgeryders-Fest-FB-1200x628-service%20design-01|690x361](upload://yl57Snq3fNit3blmhPeu6anQwVo.png) updated the image in the header and the files in the drive: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XjTQ60WPIQwBJefApBMJpeONtE02CUGY @anon1251979254, @anon2616197748 and @anon3828707713, this should be ready to be pushed set up as facebook event and be pushed out." 17,62496,2019-10-29T16:36:44.319Z,11070,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,62495,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"okidok, on it" 18,62664,2019-10-31T15:07:37.570Z,11070,1,20,19,3,0,0,24.0,61010,anon1753543892,anon2616197748,https://www.facebook.com/events/2459463567464906 Facebook event age is up :) 19,62827,2019-11-03T07:36:25.078Z,11070,1,19,18,2,0,0,33.8,62664,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,sent @anon2616197748 riend request so I can add him as host of the event. 20,63016,2019-11-05T09:58:30.177Z,11070,0,19,18,2,0,0,28.8,62827,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"it's sorted, @anon2616197748 Chris is a host of the event on FB, no we need to focus on helping him draw the kinds of participation needed to make this a fabulous event for everyone involved. I think @anon928544562 may know people who might find this design workshop generative?" 21,63451,2019-11-08T09:25:18.475Z,11070,0,21,20,1,0,0,9.2,61010,anon3828707713,anon2616197748,"hi @anon2616197748 @anon1251979254 and all I am putting together this repository of materials that we can use to post on the event page and our anon1577251828 as well as our individual social media channels - to give would be participants a sense of what we are exploring. As well as entry point to join various relevant discussions already happening in different parts of the platform. I am updating it continuously but I thought it is good to post what is there already and add so we can start already… ## [Workshop on Service Design in a Climate Emergency](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-what-do-digital-services-in-a-world-of-net-zero-look-like/11070) ### 150 word description of the event in the form of an invitation to join us adapted for email Our climate is changing, and kids are striking for the future every Friday and put simply, our house is on fire. How can we respond as practitioners designing and delivering the services people rely on? And what skills will we need that we don't have, and need to invest in learning? We'll need more than hope and courage if we want to rise to the scale of the challenge facing us - we'll need to invest in specific skills, and learn to use an expanded vocabulary that includes concepts related to climate, carbon, and equity. Join our workshop in Berlin on Friday 29th to figure out what service design might look like in world of net-zero, and identify what we'll need to know as professionals to get there. ### A summary article, also not more than 150 -200 words combining the insights/overview and good quotes from theses sources: * [How do we weave together the threads of various conversations we are having around a “deep green” transition, and what are our next steps?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-do-we-weave-together-the-threads-of-various-conversations-we-are-having-around-a-deep-green-transition-and-what-are-our-next-steps/10775) * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/living-greener-as-therapy-anon2696444391-i-stumbled-upon-plasticless-trees-and-diy-protein/11396/3 * Best of article #3 ### 3 quote banners: Visual Materials here. * **What do digital services in a world of net-zero look like ? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-what-do-digital-services-in-a-world-of-net-zero-look-like/11070** "" It’s also relatively simple to shift from measuring cost in money to cost in carbon.For example the [Office of National Statistics in the UK already measures things like carbon intensity for different sectors](https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/bulletins/greenhousegasintensityprovisionalestimatesuk/2017), to have proxy figures for CO2 emissions.If by law you are compelling to reduce emissions, and you know that expenditure in a given sector emits a set about of emissions for every 10k of spend, you have implicit budgets already set. There’s a danger in this approach, that we end up leaving great swathes of people behind - while this approach is easy to measure and manage, it’s also a very blunt instrument, especially when within industry, we know that our knowledge about anon2696444391 to do almost anything in a measurably low carbon way* is so poor."" * **What do digital services in a world of net-zero look like ? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-what-do-digital-services-in-a-world-of-net-zero-look-like/11070** “Also, while user-centred design is increasingly common, we have few tools for designing for people who are not the *primary* users of services, a key consideration when designing for the wider environment. For example, Airbnb is a great example of user-centred design for the end user. It’s a less successful example of design for the neighbour of a person hosting an apartment, or less visible people, like the cleaners and other workers who are also part of the supply chain…” * **What do digital services in a world of net-zero look like? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-what-do-digital-services-in-a-world-of-net-zero-look-like/11070** This would help understand which questions the tools and frameworks we have available are suited to answering, which ones they aren’t. Being able to check these common tools we know against the key challenges identified in the first output would let give us an idea of what new tools might look like. ### 3 Call-to-action Status updates: Visual Materials here. *Which skills would we like to have in the room?* * Service design skills, particularly working in public sector in Europe, and private sector * Policy design and experience, particularly for delivering carbon reductions in government services * Digital skills, for implementing digitally mediated aspects of a service, like building digital platforms designed to support a channel shift away from manual ones that relied on paper * Skills and experience at working with vulnerable groups (or people from those groups themselves), often impacted by the unintended consequences of people taking steps to ‘green’ a service. *Are there specific organisations whose contributions would be helpful?* * Do you know service designer who has experience facilitating events? Send them to us for a gig * Do you know anyone at TU Berlin who is working on “sustainable digitalisation”? * Do you know anyone from who has experience working with groups who are often vulnerable, and marginalised? Come join us at this workshop * Know anyone who is helping organisations understand anon2696444391 their efforts might unintentionally harm the people they are trying to help? * Do you know anyone who is building digital services that displace more polluting alternatives? Can you talk about the trade-offs you have to make when operating commercially? * Do you know anyone who is working at a mobility services company like Coup, Emmy etc. Join us!" 22,64163,2019-11-15T10:55:59.691Z,11070,1,20,19,17,0,0,94.0,61010,anon1753543892,anon2616197748,"@anon2352072725, What is your take on this as a Design & User Researcher with a focus on sustainable design? Do you have any concrete examples where you feel current tools or vocabulary lacking for the tasks of sustainable (service) design?" 23,65416,2019-11-23T12:15:01.107Z,11070,0,19,18,1,0,0,53.8,61010,anon3828707713,anon2616197748,@anon 24,65769,2019-11-25T20:16:28.942Z,11070,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,61010,anon3518668471,anon2616197748,Hi all - I've just tried to sign up for this event. I've no idea if I've been successful. Can someone let me know if I was or do I need to do something else? 25,65774,2019-11-25T21:31:44.325Z,11070,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,65769,anon2616197748,anon3518668471,HI @anon3518668471! I've added you to a list for Friday and I've if you're here then you've been successful - thanks for persevering :slight_smile: 26,65810,2019-11-26T09:41:09.533Z,11070,1,15,14,2,0,0,48.0,64163,anon2352072725,anon1753543892,"The workshop sounds very interesting! Exploring the different layers of stakeholders that are involved in a world of net-zero. I just realized that this workshop will be conducted very soon, although its pretty last minute, hope my input can still be useful someanon2696444391. Sustainability design entails continous efforts to develop, nurture, and stimulate meaningful interactions between people, nature, and the artificial. Interactions between these three tangible aspects of our world are complex as well as complicated because they are anchored to the past as well as the present. Try to look at your lunch meal today, and envision all the interactions had to happened for the meal to arrive in front of you. These interactions involved people (individuals and collective, i.e. community, companies, organisations, states etc.), nature (e.g. resources extractions, waste ) artificial ( e.g. plates, table, building i.e. resource use, carbon footprint). Its a complex interactions that need systemic understanding and interventions. From service design perspective, typical methods (also mentioned by @anon2616197748 earlier post) involved establishing boundaries for exploration, mapping the stakeholders involved, identifying personas and understanding their journey and experiences by mapping their interactions which also include their pain points along the journey. These understanding provide the basis to develop a specific or a combination of service/s : a solution that eliminates their pain points and improve the overall experience. Co-creation techniques (similar to participatory effort) are often used in which stakeholders involved are invited to co-create the solutions together. I wonder what are the methods you plan to you in this workshop?" 27,65883,2019-11-26T15:23:38.707Z,11070,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,65810,anon1753543892,anon2352072725,@anon1251979254 and @anon2616197748 can you answer this? 28,66252,2019-11-28T18:37:00.413Z,11070,0,13,12,2,0,0,42.6,61010,anon1717828514,anon2616197748,"I'm looking forward to following along with the reading and the responses online and look forward to the continuing discussion! (I would love to make the event but have other commitments tomorrow) Wishing you all a great workshop!" 29,67000,2019-12-05T14:12:32.247Z,11070,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,61010,anon1753543892,anon2616197748,"@anon2616197748, have a look at this call from the science gallery: https://opencall.sciencegallery.com/design?utm_source=Network+Email+Alerts&utm_campaign=c3e05d6d1b-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_05_07_04_08_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_0348a84edd-c3e05d6d1b-452633829 > "" Design makes worlds. It directs the traffic of humanity through the creation of cultural, social, and material space. But do we feel empowered to direct? To design? > > Most moments of our existence are touched by design. We all sketch, we fashion trial balloons, we tinker with thoughts and concepts, we revise, we prototype, we analyze and critique, and we build. And then build again. > > Design intersects with science and art. We design experiments for research, scientific visualizations, and genetic models. We design performances, texts, and communication. We design gardens, houses, and cities. We create small and large. We find beauty in experience and efficiency. > > Design often mimics the intricate and perfect connections of healthy biological systems that nurture life. Yet design can also create destruction and chaos, or limit our participation and humanity. How might we explore this fantastic and perilous labyrinth of connections and implications bound up with art, science, and design? > > **The open call is an invitation to explore the world of design and its intersection with art and science. We invite proposals that address a wide range of subjects and themes, including the following:** > > ## **POTENTIAL SUBTOPICS AND THEMES** > > * What would a world without design be like? > * How might design influence our vision and creative process? Our desires? Our identities and the identities of the world? > * How could biodesign restructure, improve, and restore our lives, or damage and destroy them? > * What might we learn from the ways that artists structure their studios, and the ways that scientists lay out equipment and material in their labs? > * Could we design ways to have our consciousness and cognitive acts leave traces beyond the death of our body? > * How does design expertise interact with a participatory design process? How can we design spaces where experts and non-experts build together? > * Could we create a participatory process for designing the future? > * How might design conjure up a beautiful, eerie, exciting, or creepy anticipation of the future? > * How might we think about vernacular design? > * What is the past and future of the relationship between nature, biology, and design? > * How does design direct intentions? > * How can we deal with the fact that design is both magical and dangerous? > * How could design not suppress the chaotic, unexpected, improbable, and disruptive? > * How might we design spaces and communities for highly mobile geographically nomadic groups of people? > * How could we address the trauma of digital data and selves becoming commodified, transacted, and controlled and suppressed? > * Could design guide a desirable transformation of society toward an equitable sustainable state? > * How do the designs of our technologies reflect or challenge our biases? > > ## **SEND US YOUR PROPOSAL TO BE IN THIS EXHIBITION!** > > Experimentation, provocation and research are at the heart of SGD’s values and programs. This exhibition will explore the practice and concept of design through the lens of artists, psychologists, storytellers, digital gamers, molecular biologists, performers, neuroscientists, designers, computer scientists, nurses, engineers, musicians, mathematicians, architects, and young people. The list of possibilities is endless. > > Your proposal could be a new or existing artwork, performance, workshop, digital intervention, research project, virtual reality game, or other activity. We strongly recommend that you keep our target audience of young people aged 15-25 years in mind and consider including interactive or participatory elements. We would love humor to feature in the exhibition. Check out our tips on what makes a good open call submission."" This might be interesting for anon2373157426 a few of your workshop participants or even your workshop outcomes, or the workshop itself?" 1,64643,2019-11-19T10:20:57.705Z,11633,0,14,13,6,0,0,32.8,64643,anon3387173765,anon3387173765,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Service design in a climate emergency **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** Having to apply to be allowed to live where I live with my partner. **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** I work with computers, but I also care about not doing harm with them. **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** My job is to build digital services, or help others rethink anon2696444391 they build theirs. I want to compare notes with others, and capture useful knowledge, making it accessible to others. **name:** the_username" 2,64730,2019-11-19T17:21:20.988Z,11633,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,64643,anon3203746736,anon3387173765,Welcome. I hope you find enough kindred spirits here and perhaps some collaborators. 3,64737,2019-11-19T17:42:28.223Z,11633,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,64643,anon1753543892,anon3387173765,ping @anon2616197748 4,66052,2019-11-27T17:02:52.819Z,11633,2,7,6,1,0,0,31.4,64737,anon2616197748,anon1753543892,"hey folks. this was just me testing the end to end experience, so I know what I'm asking of people. There isn't really a person called _the username_ here. Figured I should share that in case you felt I was ignoring." 5,66054,2019-11-27T17:05:46.762Z,11633,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,66052,anon1753543892,anon2616197748,"thank you for informing us of that :), we wont continue to try to engage with the username ;)" 6,66990,2019-12-05T13:44:17.463Z,11633,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,66052,anon3203746736,anon2616197748,Where is my laugh icon? 1,66688,2019-12-02T16:08:23.938Z,12083,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,66688,anon2868057530,anon2868057530,"## Future Governance Session 'Checking in with purposes of joining the session 'Currently working w tech, so here to get a more human perspective. 'Bc participation is central to governance. 'Understanding anon2696444391 societies organize. 'Discuss these topics with new people. 'I like the subject and was intrigued by the pitch and discuss that with other people. 'How decisions are made in society - where most conflicts lie. 'Fascinated by governance: one of the challenges of our time is agreeing what we do, in the context of a global system. 'Non-violent communication, human connection rather than tech. Reorganizing human relationships as most effective. 'Most of our challenges seem to often meet the challenge of governance. Lots of respect for where we've come to today, but I'm curious to see anon2696444391 we can make it better - improving transparency and __ using technology. Governance and organization is central to many things. Let's do it in a better and healthier way- requires more thinking and experimentation Liquid democracy, cyndicalism. Exploring anon2696444391 scuttelbutt can organize in a distributed way. I'm usually very result-oriented, getting things done. One thing i like which is not that is organizational gruop processes. **Mapping the baseline of political polcymaking** Development: Who - Thinktanks, political parties, corporate forces, lobbyism, (systemic prerequisites). How - comes up with a proposal. process is opaque, not very clear. (Where do I want to participate? Eg machine standards do not interest me, but certain companies are very interested by that) Deciding: who: small group of professional politicians, elected as representatives by the general publich with utilized voting rights. How: binary y/n approve/reject, with some room for minor adaptation of proposals Implementing: who: civil service and municipalities - most cases these are made up by professionals who are not political in function. anon2696444391: translating the national proposal to a particular context of their own. **Imaging the desired future of governance and policymaking** 1 minute for individual reflection 3 minutes for brief conversation in pairs 10 minutes for brief conversation in groups of four, focused on sharing proposals. 2 minutes for groups to formulate Takeaways from convo's into framework Presentations and wrap up Group 1: (Kristian etc) The people that are involved and directly affected by the decision should be making it. Relevant for all stages in terms of who does it. Organizing locally is important. Asking a representative to tell me what to do does not work. Ants can organize without a governor. How can we create messaging that makes roles/titles superflouos in filling a function? I was mostly complaining. Newer methods of communication to enable participation. Challenge: apathy towards participation. Great to see that change with a sense of empowerment (and incentive? what incentive?) Transparency should be easy with the tools we have available. Participatory democracy as a form of democratic duty. You're made to go (forced) and decide. This is already implemented in Mongolia. Group 2: (alex, ) If people CAN participate, there are still barriers of interest. Knowledge, level of information. Across all stages, anon2696444391 do we engage people who are not being paid? Feeling of ownership. Tracking your impact should be possible. Gap between those who do this full time and those who not. More iteration, updating the current system. Democracy (in Sweden) has not changed dramatically since the 1800's. Citizens Assemblies could be a viable form. Proposals should be transparten, possible for anyone to comment on. Makes clar who suggested what and who made what changes. Group 3: (Kim etc) Development, decision making and implementation should be done by the people who are affected by it the most. The people who are the most engaged in an issue is usually updated and knowledgeable. Citizens Assmeblies, direct democracy, sociocracy. Good enough for now, safe enough to try. Not based on majority vote, instead the concept of 'consent' (ie. lack of objections means proposals is approved). Systemic prerequisites - in any system, there are preceding (nested) systems that determines anon2696444391 the system is operating. '(Direct Demoracy' is now a party in sweden.) Eg. in the context of this workshop, it was the conference organizers and workshop organizers developed and decided most variables. We as the participants could engage only in implementatio (execution)." 1,66346,2019-11-29T14:53:42.012Z,12014,0,23,22,28,0,0,159.6,66346,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"## Content of this wiki *This is where we aggregate the input that is spread over many different posts on the platform. We are in the process of structuring the content below so we can add a table of contents here. If you have time to help that would be great! Instructions here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/adding-a-table-of-contents/7543* ##

Purpose & Objective

The purpose of the workshop was to look into some of the main technologies being developed in the Next Generation Internet debate and explore anon2696444391 AI and Internet Infrastructure impact on indicators of equality and justice. ##

Outputs

We want to produce two outputs that weave together and package the wisdom we build in a form that is easy to act on and share. ###

SMART SOUND BITES

for policymakers: a list of bulletpoints which which condenses everything we have learned into 7 one sentence insights + recommendations. and ###

**A VISUAL REPORT**

In the form of a deck of slides that answers these questions: a. What is happening right now ""near"" you b. What it is doing to you right now c. How will this affect you in the future d. What can be done about it (anon2696444391 you can influence/control what happens) e. Who is working on the issues/solutions for better outcomes f. How you can contribute: as citizen, as regional/local civil servant, as national policymaker, as EU policymaker, as technologist, researcher, as politician (political party), as organised civil society leader etc ##

Our methodology

Physical events: Group discussions in physical workshops that are organised by members of the community with facilitation and resource support from Edgeryders. We all take good notes and share them with the organisers. Online discussions: Virtual discussions on our online community forums. This is where participants reconnect after the physical gatherings to reconnect and meet others in the community, access the documentation, online courses, more events, job opportunities etc. Living handbook: Our platform functions as a kind of expertise directory where participants share their personal and professional experiences around the topics and issues of new internet technologies (incl. AI), Justice or Wellbeing of individuals and communities. Our community journalists help participants to transform their contribution to the online conversation into editorialised content that we then use to build a larger audience for their ideas, connect them around common themes and potential collaborations etc. ##

Questions that were touched on in the workshop

1. **The EU’s new Commission is looking to approve a new AI directive, and of course democratic participation is important to ensure a good law. What do you feel necessary from EU to participate?** 2. **What is “investment in AI”? What should the EU do practically?** 3. **Can we think of counterproductive regulation on the Internet? Stuff like the copyright directive? anon2696444391 did we end up with all these things, that used to be a public good, end up being someone’s property?** 4. **Do we actually need AI? Why are we pushing for AI?** 5. **Where do we bring the democratic process into new models?** 1. **If we want to shape the common sense five or ten years from now what will be considered relevant?** 2. **What will general principles about what we consider good or bad look like or work in practice?** 3. **What is something you are struggling with? What is out there to make our own biases less visible to the algorithms?** 4. **How can we get emotionally engaged into the ai discussion? What do you want to push against? Where are injustices related coming out of this?** 5. **in terms of mobilization and justice, perception of the actions and reactions of justice. We’ve seen the same thing playing out in different places for different reasons. Obvious injustice - the link between the situation and the AI land where this is scaled up. What happens when it scales up?** 6. **Why are we putting the wellbeing of people behind proprietary systems?** We have a lot of things like roads with are public, you can’t make a public road and make it private. But for some reason, we don’t have the same idea about data, and why not? 7. **What are the reasons people are unable to act upon algorithmic issues in society?** 8. **Where is the space in which humans can have agency?** ----- ##

The Workshop Discussions

----- ###

1. The EU’s new Commission is looking to approve a new AI directive, and of course democratic participation is important to ensure a good law. What do you feel necessary from EU to participate?

--- * Human centered internet is not defined, that’s why you can’t find a solution. “Human” is literally anyone. * Why are we pushing for AI? The end of Moore’s law. The money we seek in are more unlike to come back. Industry took a risk at specialised chips: AI and blockchain-specific. So, now they need to create a demand for these chips. We should be aware of the vendor-driven nature of this stuff, and think about anon2696444391 to regulate these companies. * The business model of Big Tech now is based on keeping the code, providing cloud services and collecting data to profile and ultimately influence users. They cross-subsidize their cloud services with their marketing revenue streams. If you want to fight that, you should have public cloud infrastructure, which is a trillion-EUR affair. That’s your investment in human-centric AI infrastructure. * Companies like Google optimise with AI the profilazione of their customers. The difference is if it’s a data centered AI or not. … ? Where do we bring the democratic process into new models? * Are we really at the end of Moore's Law? This is a claim that is not uncontested * In Belgium there is a company called It’sMe, who does online identity. They are pushing their data onto Azure, making it GDPR and EIDAS compliant. That changed my thinking, because it sanon2696444391ed me as even these sterling silver pieces of European thinking ends up in the Silicon Valley cloud. * We need to break the number-person relationship: when you get born, you receive a number from the state, and the game’s up. I dream of disposable identities, that we set up with the purpose of entering into a relationship, like for example receiving a service. A good analogy is one-time email addresses: you get an email address, you sign up to some online service with it, use it ONCE to receive the email to confirm you do control that email, and then it self destructs. * I’m a bit skeptical that legislation is the right instrument to do this kind of things. It’s a blunt instrument, because as of now there is no good understanding of the process from the ethical values (fairly easy to encode in a directive) to the actual technical choices of the scientists and engineers building AI systems. Ex. we like the New Zealand group developing Scuttlebutt: when users asked for cross-device accounts, the core developer replied “I’m not doing that, because we want to serve underprivileged people, and these people do not have multiple devices”. What he was doing was justifying his technical choices in terms of his values. As a socio-technical culture, we are not good at that. --- ###

2. What is “investment in AI”? What should the EU do practically?

---- * climate + competition policy = nobody is allowed to grow to much. What is “empowering”? I suspect that AI (ML applied on big data) is inherently NOT human-centric, because its models (for example a recommendation algo) encode each human into a database, and then models you in terms of who you are similar to: for example, a woman between 35 and 45 who speaks Dutch and watches stand-up comedy on Netflix. Everything not standardizable, everything that makes you you, gets pushed to the error term of the model. That is hardly human-centric, because it leads to optimizing systems in terms of abstract “typical humans” or “target groups” or whatever. * The business model of Big Tech now is based on keeping the code, providing cloud services and collecting data to profile and ultimately influence users. They cross-subsidize their cloud services with their marketing revenue streams. If you want to fight that, you should have public cloud infrastructure, which is a trillion-EUR affair. That’s your investment in human-centric AI infrastructure. * Companies like Google optimise with AI the profilazione of their customers. The difference is if it’s a data centered AI or not. … ? Where do we bring the democratic process into new models? * Governance instead of government. Here’s my take: the kind of society you are looking at is anarcho-communist. The communist part is that infrastructure is fully centralized, like in the 30 glorieuse. Anything that runs onto the infrastructure is fully permissionless. That’s the anarchist part. And finally, the data stays with the people. * I agree with the antitrust principle. What we consider AI is machine learning, this is the root of our problems, it’s just classical statistics. You create the illusion that value production is shifted to the generation…. ex. if the doctor establish a relation with the patient, the AI has not to invade the relation, but now the doctor has to take notes and patient see less value in it (you look somewhere else and you are centralised…). * Airport before and after Ryanair: before architecture were associated to functions and your experience of travels, room for different functions. Now with the low cost you consider that the experience is less valuable, now is a shopping mall and at the gate it’s temporarily informations about space. * medicine is not diagnosis, but prognosis-based. In medicine, nothing has value if I cannot improve your life. A patient can and should negotiate with the doctor where to go from here; he or she even has a right to die. This is a very poor fit for anon2696444391 ML-on-big-data works. ---- ###

3. Can we think of counterproductive regulation on the Internet? Stuff like the copyright directive? anon2696444391 did we end up with all these things, that used to be a public good, end up being someone’s property?

---- * internet changes the ratio of power. We behave like we are in the pre-internet era, because internet is a new technology and it takes longer for us to change behaviours. * Airport before and after Ryanair: before architecture were associated to functions and your experience of travels, room for different functions. Now with the low cost you consider that the experience is less valuable, now is a shopping mall and at the gate it’s temporarily informations about space. * in Helsinki everybody agreed that you can’t sell your data. * We optimize relationships. This is problematic. For example, we have marketing companies working with civil liberties organizations, that tell their clients: we can tell you which of your donors care about which issues, so you can optimize for issues where you get more money. * Optimisation has been the logic as far, but it can go wrong anyway. Traffic is a perfect example. If you look at optimization system, it comes at a cost and if you don’t do internalise the cost it causes bigger damages. Apparently innocent choices as what to optimize for turn out to have huge consequences. When you design traffic, do you optimize for driver safety? Or for pedestrian safety? Of minimize time spent on the road? * on feedbacks: I know GDPR, it’s regulated anyway. There are serious problems on anon2696444391 GDPR focuses on personal data on individuals. * We talk about automated decisions, but there is a set of criteria … the optimization is not about the single person, but as pbe part of a certain group which operates certain choices in general. So, you expect to empower people, but actually you don’t. Paul Olivier Dehaye is trying to pool data from different workers to see if people are being discriminated. This is called a “data trust”. There is also the DECODE project that is doing something they called “data commons”. * We are now in a mess with the GDPR. Uber, for example, uses it to refuse to give drivers their data, saying this impacts the rights of the riders. This (says Seda) is the consequence of focusing on personal rights when the data are used to optimize over populations. ---- ###

4. Do we actually need AI? Why are we pushing for AI?

____ * I just read a review of 37,000 studies of AI in medicine. Of these, only about 100 had enough information on training datasets to do a meta-analysis on. Of these, 24 claimed prospective design (the algorithm had been trained without knowing the real data); of these zero had actually done prospective design. * … I don’t know any real medical problem that prospective AI model can solve. * medicine is not diagnosis, but prognosis-based. In medicine, nothing has value if I cannot improve your life. A patient can and should negotiate with the doctor where to go from here; he or she even has a right to die. This is a very poor fit for anon2696444391 ML-on-big-data works. * Why are we pushing for AI? The end of Moore’s law. The money we seek in are more unlike to come back. Industry took a risk at specialised chips: AI and blockchain-specific. So, now they need to create a demand for these chips. We should be aware of the vendor-driven nature of this stuff, and think about anon2696444391 to regulate these companies. * The business model of Big Tech now is based on keeping the code, providing cloud services and collecting data to profile and ultimately influence users. They cross-subsidize their cloud services with their marketing revenue streams. If you want to fight that, you should have public cloud infrastructure, which is a trillion-EUR affair. That’s your investment in human-centric AI infrastructure. * Companies like Google optimise with AI the profilazione of their customers. The difference is if it’s a data centered AI or not. … ? Where do we bring the democratic process into new models? ---- ###

5. Where do we bring the democratic process into new models?

------ ###

6. If we want to shape the common sense five or ten years from now what will be considered relevant? What will general principles about what we consider good or bad look like or work in practice?

___ * I want to clearly distinguish between systems of exploitation and the technology itself. Any system of exploitation, including capitalism, will find and use *any* new technological option in exploitative ways. The history of digital innovation and media innovation in more general is anon2373157426 rich in that: before AI for behavior prediction it has been targeted advertising, tracking, mass surveillance programs by governments, weaponized drones, propaganda micro-targeting, mass media use for state propaganda etc… * That’s purely a social problem, not a technological one. Adding one more technology cannot make it much worse … nukes are already around, so what technology could offer significantly worse potential outcomes? So to deal with it, you don’t have to make legislation for AI, but against capitalism. * AI in itself is a nice tool in the toolkit, and easily allows for beneficial use. Personal example: my [open source coffee sorter ](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/7122) project uses deep learning based image classifiers to relieve small-scale farmers from sorting your coffee by hand. * Technology leads to bad or good results: Principle of social justice * Amartya Sen’s principle of substantial freedom, a sustainable substantial freedom. We need to have capacity/capability to live the life we want * As worker, I want it to help me to avoid discrimination in subjective interviews, but not to be used to have AI discriminating against me because of previous behavior of “my” group * My freedom should be enhanced * Putting on the table simple methodology that allows us to understand the just and the unjust * This kind of principle is not the one we take out, it’s a methodology, an open-ended principle - it can be filled with content, case by case only through the participatory mechanism. * Different subjective values of different contexts can lead to conflict- case by case through participatory processes is the solution - not just regulation * We slowly develop what we consider to be just * People become the owners and agents over their own data. The Great Hack. Fair use, data economy. An ethical data operations on a global scale, with a decentralized system, fair european data economy, we’re currently colonized - europe only has 3% market share * Data economy there are 4 models: Lanlard: you’re money is worth up to 20.000 euros (??). Three other models, like in barcelona, NGI calls it decode. They consider data to be common good of a city or community. There are 4 different types of these data economy model * Mymobility, own your data. People are not really aware that they can manage their own data. Energy and transportation has the east sensitive data. * Inform the civil society and create new business model * I look at automation and documentation at violence registration, do universities offer support system in trauma informed interface, your claim will go through it, run it through all other cases, and then match it with all the other cases… * I have problems explaining the problems these problems have. What these systems are doing, they are trying to categorize our experience of misconduct in binary options. You have to have a clear definition of rape otherwise it doesn’t fit in the system People are shoe-horned into particular categories, but this doesn’t speak to the richness of the experience you have had. * With criminal justice we see anon2696444391 people are categorized. Wider categories of human improvement are not classified. * This is where the question of civil society is very important, its difficult to understand anon2696444391 AI makes decisions, categorizes us, and we can’t anticipated. We don’t even know where the data comes from and who it is being sold to. * People don’t have the tech literacy to question this. Should citizens have this knowledge? * What harm is and what freedom can be? * The individual needs vs individual capabilities, and the collective needs and capacities. One person may be fooled by a system, like cambridge analytica. * I’m more into that if we know what is wrong, anon2696444391 we can mobilize people and now we are about what is the thing that we are mobilizing about? * A lot of the time when people are faced with systematic conversation or binary boxing in for example: Employment models aren’t working, you can’t break out of those and you have to work with others these new ideas to making it work. * You can only break through these models and narratives by working together and creating new narratives. * When we know what we want to do and where to go, we can create a new future, something completely different from what the AI is predicting perhaps. Thus create the space that is more free. * Participatory art - the art that throws away the separation between art and the spectator. Because of the consumerist society…the point is not to create “great art” but great transformative experience together with other people. Example of the Borderland. They come into this world, change the mindset, lots of the traditional concepts start to break. Creating completely new reality. Tackling the imposed machine. There is something there but don’t know what. ---- ###

7. What will general principles about what we consider good or bad look like or work in practice?

------- * Following the “substantial freedom” framework a **code of behaviour** should be established and monitored, by which all categories playing a role in developing algorithms - scientists developing Algorithms, politicians supporting/calling for their use, public and private administrators using them - should ask themselves: **What is the effect on the capabilities of people effected by the algorithms?** * Analogic/dialogic …. Online/Offline **Experimenting platforms** combining the two is a priority. In particular, it should be a practice for public administrations and politicians to create dialogic platforms where the above code of behaviour is checked. * Education/sensibilization on the implementation of the above conceptual framework in order to identify good/bad uses is a priority. It should first of all engage kids from a very early age: a new saga of cautionary tales … would help. * Since AI can produce either bad effects (harm) or good effects … the appropriate conceptual framework should offer a definition of bad/good so as to * assess current uses of AI, * mobilize people both “against” bad uses and “for” good uses” * design, experiment and revise alternative “good” uses * Sen’s concept of Substantial Freedom (A Theory of Justice) is a choice: the capability approach, where we consider “good” all moves/actions that improve the capacity/capability of every person to do what considers valuable (not futile capacities, but central to one’s life: dignity, learning, health, freedom to move, human relations, …) * This approach does not incapsulate what is “bad” or “harmful” in a rigid box, but it calls for a participatory/societal assessment of anon2696444391 the general principle should be implemented, an assessment that can be continuously updated through public debate * Not so new: it was used by lawyers in the corporate assessment of “just”/”unjust” fiduciary duties and business judgement rule in the US * Which reminds us that the participatory process/platforms can be of different kinds: * In the judiciary * In working councils * In town councils a la Barcelona * Mixing dialogical/analogical debate * I look at automation and documentation at violence registration, do universities offer support system in trauma informed interface, your claim will go through it, run it through all other cases, and then match it with all the other cases… * I have problems explaining the problems these problems have. What these systems are doing, they are trying to categorize our experience of misconduct in binary options. * You have to have a clear definition of rape otherwise it doesn’t fit in the system * People are shoe-horned into particular categories, but this doesn’t speak to the richness of the experience you have had. * With criminal justice we see anon2696444391 people are categorized. Wider categories of human improvement are not classified. * This is where the question of civil society is very important, its difficult to understand anon2696444391 AI makes decisions, categorizes us, and we can’t anticipated. We don’t even know where the data comes from and who it is being sold to. * People don’t have the tech literacy to question this. Should citizens have this knowledge? * What harm is and what freedom can be? * the problem here is that all of this data exists and all of it sudden was opened. It is important to distinguish it was just the side effect. * maybe five years ago FB opened its graph and it opened up FBs capabilities. I was having a blast with it, was a party trick for me. This is what cambridge analytica used. We were able to be coming our own CIA’s. * It’s not only does it give us more capability, but what do we use these capabilities for. Maybe some have too much responsibilities with it? ------ ###

8. What is something you are struggling with? What is out there to make our own biases less visible to the algorithms?

-------- * The individual needs vs individual capabilities, and the collective needs and capacities. One person may be fooled by a system, like cambridge analytica. * Elections, Cambridge analytica, Facebook * Algorithms like Facebook are pulling us into a certain bias. Gathering data and classifying a person based on a lot of data around. If I am moved from one reality to another, the categorization of me is probably not the same. Even in a certain culture. Behaviour and constant interaction influenced by culture. * If myself am less biased the algorithms are less likely to classify me. * How conscious I am myself about my own bias. * It is really easy to respond to this, oh, maybe if I only share part, than that could be a meaningful intervention. Sometimes it can be. Mozilla for example has add ons. We can do that individually. * But maybe the scope of our change should go beyond individual actions. * Content moderation in books by Mary Gray or Sarah Roberts - tracking the work on anon2696444391 tech companies more their content moderation work to India for example, the workers are paid at the low rate and required to impose western standards on what the behaviour on social media should look like. The norms are being translated by the economic models of the platforms * The scale is so much bigger than us. * What are some of the lessons that the civil society has done in the past looking at the ways we can translate this -------- ###

9. How can we get emotionally engaged into the ai discussion? What do you want to push against? Where are injustices related coming out of this?

------- * a group in LA - Stop LAPD surveillance, automating inequality, ranging from criminal justice, homelessnes…to uncover the ways in which algorithms are used for surveillance. People got together to demand that the police releases surveillance policies. They were able to uncover the full scope, pushing back against the LAPD. Intervention takes a long time and needs a lot of work. * the problem isn’t the algorithm, We have a tool: like a knife, it can be used for cooking in the kitchen or killing someone. Same with algorithms. Algorithms and the engineers cost a lot of money. * we have image recognition, we can create images, so if an algorithm is able to shape — it is possible and that is scary for em as a parents * Use of AI in judicial and social welfare, like in housing projects who gets a house, based on an algorithm. But people need to have someone recognize them as a human people, But we aren’t recognized as human beings anymore, discrimination grows because the human to human contact is no longer there. But the problem is that is that there are sooo many more things happening that are not implicit. The way labor was exploited in capitalism, enormous change happened. But now this is being copied again. But it isn’t causing an enormous reaction. The unions are weak. * Credit for a household going to banks. Information about our behaviour. Families are asked a high rate, the reduction of social justice. Where does the right-wing voter come from? There is a big job of just making clear what is happening. What happened in the State was evident, but here we lack information, children should understand. * We need to: * Educate, anon2696444391 for bad and for good it can used * Judiciary needs to be brought into the game * We need to bring back people’s wellbeing into it. * It isn’t necessarily about tech, it’s about people. The solution isn’t marketization ------- ###

10. In terms of mobilization and justice, perception of the actions and reactions of justice. We’ve seen the same thing playing out in different places for different reasons. Obvious injustice - the link between the situation and the AI land where this is scaled up. What happens when it scales up?

------- * labor, women, kids, citizens, consumers. It can react to a machine, but it is also a reaction to social issues, national bargaining in negotiation of algorithms. People are coming together against the gig economy. The platform is private, its proprietary, they are angry. They know there is misuse. * In the US, if you read the amount of literature by women on gender, there’s an abundance, but within the EU this is not the case. * With regards to kids’ privacy, their are flashes of anger, but no movements. * With users of mobility services, there is some action from citizens. For example in Milan they are now trying to launch a platform for mobility. * On anger, you always have to have a structure. Otherwise it may be used by the wrong people or die out. * Social justice: is this algorithm being used to enhance or reduce the capabilities of humans. On all the different fields. * Putting the structure on the anger. You need to turn it into a request. * We’re not talking enough about the consequences. I personally do not feel threatened to automation, but many people are. I don’t believe in any of the numbers that go about. What is really happening is the quality of jobs with reflection on people’s lives, relations, the capacity of algorithms…people are being told one day to another if they will work. This is killing their lives. The unions - representing labor, have a reason to mobilize people. If you are looking for a bomb shell I would study them more, the role of people like us. The unions are not equipped these days, we were told they are not necessary anymore, sometimes conservative. I would invest in capacitation of the union. * it’s like the amazon example, they weren’t unionized, but they protested and had demands and got them, and unionized after. But I am stressing that labor is a large area where things come along. * We are trying to understand new systems and optimization of their functions. What happens when the system causes externalities? optimization systems make population wide decisions. Giving a bunch of signals - example of uber (feedback loops, to maximize their profits). The app sensing cars - getting you out of the traffic. Caused problems in smaller streets. The app wasn’t able to change the algorithm, the municipality can’t do anything. The citizens install roadblocks as a solution. Can we build systems to help people against optimization systems. POTs. Facebook matching people to the advertisers - people are subjected to data getting to them regardless of anon2696444391 they interact on the platform. Agency is very limited because it’s about the whole infrastructure. * workers at amazon wanted to a strike, but amazon knew and got 200 extra people, so they could continue., After that they created another warehouse, so it couldn’t be disrupted. * There are going to be local wins for a bit, but it will take a bit for a larger win. * The most of the work in the AI is the migration and race. We shouldn’t go just the labor way. The migrants are getting organized but they don’t have labor unions. * in Lebanon and Morocco - riots over something related to the AI. in one case taxing, banning of whatsapp. Because of income? Maybe. But whatsapp also introduced the signal protocol. What it took for people to go to the streets and protest against government was for their rights to be removed (those they didn’t have a few years back). * People have abilities, and people are upset, we have network systems, if people would map out all the uber drivers ad ping them, they will do something. * There’s an example of care in the states, where due to an algorithm peoples care was reduced from 8 to 4 hours. But they didn;t want to explain anon2696444391 the system worked. But they were violating the rights of these people. * Another state in the US: employment benefits - combining two different data sets, the system wasn’t able to sync the system together so people weren’t able to receive unemployment benefits. Companies will always hide behind the trade secrecy, but why the state considers this should be above human rights? * Justin had a few examples we should add here --------- ###

11. Why are we putting the wellbeing of people behind proprietary systems? We have a lot of things like roads with are public, you can’t make a public road and make it private. But for some reason, we don’t have the same idea about data, and why not?

---------- * if you perceive the data is being used out of control then you are boycotting it. The results of systematic mistakes, decisions have been taken by the private corporations and when the public sector is using them it is doing for its own purposes. Talking about the problem that is not in algorithm but our pressure is taken out of context, the common discourse has taken the public sector out. Even the illusion of internet as being something out of the control of the state. The state has been wrongly used. Even in the education - the teachers in Italy weren’t given explanations why they are being placed somewhere. But this is not because of the data. The algorithm was badly used. * are we not being radical enough? If we put a censor anywhere out in a place, including a car, and that data MUST be completely public. If we make these legislations * we are from Sweden, no minimum wage, negotiation between unions, but at some point the legislation was put in place which allowed them to lower that power. We have to make sure that at the EU level these companies can act in this way. We need to find out what those things are. * gender has become more visible in the last ten years because the perception changed. The oppression that comes with capital is something that became visible with the social movement. Things can be made visible. * There’s an example of care in the states, where due to an algorithm peoples care was reduced from 8 to 4 hours. But they didn;t want to explain anon2696444391 the system worked. But they were violating the rights of these people. * Another state in the US: employment benefits - combining two different data sets, the system wasn’t able to sync the system together so people weren’t able to receive unemployment benefits. Companies will always hide behind the trade secrecy, but why the state considers this should be above human rights? ---------- ###

12. **What are the reasons people are unable to act upon algorithmic issues in society?

------ * something as vague as my data became very big, most people understand there is something about data we should care about. We only need this data once, which later becomes governed by something different. The algorithm becomes irrevocable. How do you challenge that? Even if you own your data people will sell it. ------

13. Where is the space in which humans can have agency over these issues?

------- * The three steps: let them pay taxes; mobility of capital * We are discussing this within these constraints, because we can’t change the whole world, but if there’s some solidarity between the unions — organised labor, if we can give them higher capacity, and then they won’t let them be abused, it is doable. They are very weak technological speaking, there is no negotiation anymore. * In order to move ahead and to make the most of all ideas and human resources working these days on AI, we need both to understand where potential mobilization is taking place or it might take place, and to have a conceptual framework to move ahead. * Since AI can produce either bad effects (harm) or good effects … the appropriate conceptual framework should offer a definition of bad/good so as to * assess current uses of AI, * mobilize people both “against” bad uses and “for” good uses” * design, experiment and revise alternative “good” uses * Sen’s concept of Substantial Freedom (A Theory of Justice) is a choice: the capability approach, where we consider “good” all moves/actions that improve the capacity/capability of every person to do what considers valuable (not futile capacities, but central to one’s life: dignity, learning, health, freedom to move, human relations, …) * This approach does not incapsulate what is “bad” or “harmful” in a rigid box, but it calls for a participatory/societal assessment of anon2696444391 the general principle should be implemented, an assessment that can be continuously updated through public debate * Not so new: it was used by lawyers in the corporate assessment of “just”/”unjust” fiduciary duties and business judgement rule in the US * Which reminds us that the participatory process/platforms can be of different kinds: * In the judiciary * In working councils * In town councils a la Barcelona * Mixing dialogical/analogical debate * **Which are the potential ACTORS of mobilization?** * **Organised Labour** : automation, bad jobs, gig economy, low wages * Women: AI machism * Kids: sexual abuses, porno * Citizens: mobility * Citizens: health … a dimension of life where people are becoming awareof bad uses (insurance, use of DNA) * **Therefore, one should move forward according to the following sequence:** * Identify, country by country or even places by places, where people’s concern on bad uses (or on forgone good uses) is high and there it is being organised: i.e. where there is a potential demand for “competence support”, both at conceptual and technological level * Concentrate on these contexts and provide them with the conceptual framework * Turn the “pars destruens” into a “pars costruens” * Building at EU level a network that allows horizontal comparison for the same issues both of threats, actions and results * Ensuring at EU level the availability of a competence centre that deals (not necessarily solve, but ai least identify and tackles) with the meta-obstacles preventing the implementation or curtailing the survival of“good” uses. * **Complementary activities that emerged from debate:** * Following the “substantial freedom” framework a **code of behaviour** should be established and monitored, by which all categories playing a role in developing algorithms - scientists developing Algorithms, politicians supporting/calling for their use, public and private administrators using them - should ask themselves: **What is the effect on the capabilities of people effected by the algorithms?** * Analogic/dialogic …. Online/Offline **Experimenting platforms** combining the two is a priority. In particular, it should be a practice for public administrations and politicians to create dialogic platforms where the above code of behaviour is checked. * Education/sensibilization on the implementation of the above conceptual framework in order to identify good/bad uses is a priority. It should first of all engage kids from a very early age: a new saga of cautionary tales … would help. * We are trying to understand new systems and optimization of their functions. What happens when the system causes externalities? optimization systems make population wide decisions. Giving a bunch of signals - example of uber (feedback loops, to maximize their profits). The app sensing cars - getting you out of the traffic. Caused problems in smaller streets. The app wasn’t able to change the algorithm, the municipality can’t do anything. The citizens install roadblocks as a solution. Can we build systems to help people against optimization systems. POTs. Facebook matching people to the advertisers - people are subjected to data getting to them regardless of anon2696444391 they interact on the platform. Agency is very limited because it’s about the whole infrastructure. * workers at amazon wanted to a strike, but amazon knew and got 200 extra people, so they could continue., After that they created another warehouse, so it couldn’t be disrupted. * There are going to be local wins for a bit, but it will take a bit for a larger win. * The most of the work in the AI is the migration and race. We shouldn’t go just the labor way. The migrants are getting organized but they don’t have labor unions. * If actors say they need algorithms: we need to ask them why? * we need to ask different questions, we need to ask a fundamental question: why are we buying into these systems and who hold the powers? Individual agency is extremely limited, so we need to look collectively at taking action. * There is not going to be a single collective that will resolve this. * I’m more into that if we know what is wrong anon2696444391 we can mobilize people and now we are about what is the thing that we are mobilizing about. * A lot of the time when people are faced with systematic conversation or binary boxing in for example: Employment models aren’t working, you can’t break out of those and you have to work with others these new ideas to making it work. * You can only break through these models and narratives by working together and creating new narratives. * When we know what we want to do and where to go, we can create a new future, something completely different from what the AI is predicting perhaps. Thus create the space that is more free. * Participatory art - the art that throws away the separation between art and the spectator. Because of the consumerist society…the point is not to create “great art” but great transformative experience together with other people. Example of the Borderland. They come into this world, change the mindset, lots of the traditional concepts start to break. Creating completely new reality. Tackling the imposed machine. There is something there but don’t know what.- * something as vague as my data became very big, most people understand there is something about data we should care about. We only need this data once, which later becomes governed by something different. The algorithm becomes irrevocable. How do you challenge that? Even if you own your data people will sell it. ----- ###

Post Workshop Participant reflections

-----

Matthias

[Original Post](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/were-you-at-the-ai-justice-workshop-on-19-11-share-your-notes-and-thoughts-here/11694/6?u=anon3828707713) * **Value-based software architecture.** Scuttlebutt deprioritized making their software available for multiple devices based on their values of “this being software that is made for people who only have one device”. That’s a major architectural decision, which might not be possible to adjust later without rewriting the whole software. So they really poured their values into their software. In comparison, politics is not yet good at getting its values implemented into technological developments. So we need a better process that implements our values into our technology. It’s about a process strong in accountability. * **What is human?** If an actor (any party / organization) says they are human centric, they often do not even define what “human centric” means in their case. For example, “human” in “European human centric Internet” is left undefined. This generates conflict potential, as it stays so general. * **The economics behind AI.** There’s an interesting study of “the cost of developing a universal chips after the end of Moore’s law”. It means that now that we’re at the end of Moore’s law, the money sunk into developing faster chips is unlikely to come back. So instead the industry took a risk by developing *specialized* chips. There are two main types of such chips: AI and blockchain. That’s the only reason why AI became a hype and we’re talking about it: it is pushed on us, because industry needed a new profitable outlet for investments, and high levels of capital investment are backing AI already. “If we are not buying it, it’s going to go down. If we are not buying it, we are going to go down.” We are still in the process of making that choice if we (also: the Commission) want to invest money into AI. * **Good and bad AI architecture.** Let’s differentiate between “AI for research and solutions” and “AI for the production of services”. The first type is benign research aimed to solve intricate problems, for example done by universities. The second type is commercial SaaS software that scoops in data out of profit interest of the company. Maybe Google maps might in the future adapt your routing so that you see adverts of parties that paid Google for audience for these adverts.This means: the problem of this is about the economics of who runs the datacenters: Amazon and Microsoft and Google built “clouds”, data centers for people to run their applications. Due to economics of scale, they provide the cheapest solution, but also are able to monitor and keep the data going through them. This is an undemocratic process for plain economic reasons, and it’s a hard problem to crack. * **The structure defines the function.** The type of governance structure defines anon2696444391 a new technology gets used. So it may be that we have allowed the wrong governance structures to happen, which will lead to the wrong outcomes of AI technology. In addition, Google and Facebook have been advertising companies but are not anymore – trying to rule them in as advertisers with regulation is already not applicable anymore, instead we should rule in their new structure of “AI first” companies. * **Is AI anti-human by definition?** What AI (as rebranded Bayesian statistics) does is to put the individual differences between human beings (everyone’s “spark of the divine”) into the epsilon, the error term at the end of the equation. That makes AI non-human-centric by design. Because the definition of human for an individual is “that which cannot be predicted by AI, which is not part of the ‘normal’”. * **On tech interfering with relationships.** Intermediating the patient-doctor relationship with data collecting and analyzing systems has degraded the value of that relationship. Because medicine is not about diagnosis, but prognosis: improving a patient’s future condition, and that is a negotiation with the individual, and that individual might be very much non-average, refusing certain treatments etc., and should have and keep a right to that individualness. That still allows for tech systems that could benefit relationships – it’s just that the tech systems we have currently in medicine do not do that. #### Personal reflections I want to clearly distinguish between systems of exploitation and the technology itself. Any system of exploitation, including capitalism, will find and use *any* new technological option in exploitative ways. The history of digital innovation and media innovation in more general is anon2373157426 rich in that: before AI for behavior prediction it has been targeted advertising, tracking, mass surveillance programs by governments, weaponized drones, propaganda micro-targeting, mass media use for state propaganda etc… That’s purely a social problem, not a technological one. Adding one more technology cannot make it much worse … nukes are already around, so what technology could offer significantly worse potential outcomes? So to deal with it, you don’t have to make legislation for AI, but against capitalism. AI in itself is a nice tool in the toolkit, and easily allows for beneficial use. Personal example: my [open source coffee sorter ](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/7122) project uses deep learning based image classifiers to relieve small-scale farmers from sorting your coffee by hand. ###

Inge

[Original Post](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/were-you-at-the-ai-justice-workshop-on-19-11-share-your-notes-and-thoughts-here/11694/2?u=anon3828707713). Thanks so much @anon3828707713 for organizing such an important event on such a crucial topic. For me the most important takeaways for now (as you said, we’ve just started scratching the surface of something so detrimental) are the following: 1. we need to increase tech literacy about the systems in place: if we (individuals, governments, policymakers) don’t know anon2696444391 the black boxes work, anon2696444391 do we know that what they promise us is actually what results they give us. How can we question outcomes if we aren’t informed about the manner in which the systems arrive at conclusions? 2. we also need to understand the tipping point into creating action: when was the last time you really got upset and demanded change? The problem lays again with the fact that we often don’t even know about the injustices (from increased traffic, to the inability to speak to people instead of machines). This topic I think relates to the first point. We can’t be angry to the point of taking action (protests, etc), if we don’t even realize/understand where the injustice is coming from. Side note: we may even want to take it further: should we use certain systems if we don’t know anon2696444391 they work? 3. If actors say they need certain systems, we need to ask them why. Why not do it by hand? The idea is that these systems will solve everything, but they are just accelerating broken systems. ###

Alberto

[Original Post](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-i-learned-on-regulating-ai-and-a-human-centric-internet/11699) In general, **the group felt the need to spend anon2373157426 some time to get a grip on a shared idea of what AI actually is** , and anon2696444391 it works, before he could discuss its regulation. Occasionally, the discussion veered into being anon2373157426 technical, and not everybody could follow it all the time, even if we had an over-representation of computer scientists and digital activists. This is in itself a result: if this crowd struggles to get it, democratic participation is going to be pretty difficult for the general public. We used [Chatham House rule ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatham_House_Rule), so I in what follows I do not attribute statements to anyone in particular. We kicked off by reminding ourselves that the new von der Leyen Commission has promised to [tackle AI within the first 100 days of taking office](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/commentary/blog-post/von-der-leyen-new-commission-take-aim-at-ai-legislation/). Brussels is mostly happy with anon2696444391 the GDPR thing played out, that is by recognizing the EU as the de facto “regulatory superpower”. The AI regulation in the pipeline is expected to have a similar effect to that of GDPR. **Participants then expressed some concern around the challenges of regulating AI** . For example: * A directive may be the wrong instrument. The law is good at enshrining principles (“human-centric AI”), but in the tech industry we are seeing *everyone* , including FAANG, claiming to adhere to the same principles. What we seem to be missing is an accountable process to translate principles into technical choices. For example, elsewhere I have told the story of anon2696444391 the developers of [Scuttlebutt ](https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/) justified their refusal to give their users multiple-device accounts in terms of values: “we want to serve the underconnected, and those guys do not own multiple devices. Multiple device account is a first world problem, and should be deprioritized”. * The AI story is strongly vendor-driven: a solution looking for a problem. Lawmaking as a process is naturally open to the contribution of industry, and this openness risks giving even more market power to the incumbents. * AI uses big data and lots of computing power, so it tends to live in the cloud as infrastructure. But the cloud is itself super-concentrated, it is infrastructure in few private hands. The rise of AI brings even more momentum to the concentration process. This brings us back to an intuition that has been circulating in this forum, namely that you need antitrust policy to do tech policy, at least in the current situation. * The term “AI” has come to mean “machine learning on big data”. The governance of the data themselves is an unsolved problem, with major consequences for AI. In the health sector, for example, clinical data tend to be simply entrusted to large companies: the British NHS [gave them](https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2019%2F09%2F19%2Ffive_nhs_trusts_do_data_deal_with_google_one_says_no%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHAd8EamUp9LY1ulHdC7mufXEXJcQ) to Deep Mind; a [similar operation ](https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Feuropa.today.it%2Fattualita%2Funa-scelleratezza-consegnare-le-cartelle-cliniche-degli-italiani-all-ibm-rossi-attacca-il-governo.html&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFKARv42-MfE-a-cJN4t3VXIOvu6g) between the Italian government and IBM Watson was attempted, but failed, because data governance in Italy is with the regions, and they refused to release the data. We learned much about the state of the art of the reflection on data governance at MyData2019: to our surprise [there appears to be a consensus](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/10893) among scholars on anon2696444391 to go about data governance, but it is not being translated into law. That work is *very* unfinished, and it should be finished *before* opening the AI can of worms. * AI has a large carbon footprint. Even when it does improve on actual human problems, it does so at the cost of worsening the climate, not in a win-win scenario. * The Internet should be “human-centric”. But machine learning is basically statistical analysis: high-dimensional multivariate statistical models. When it is done on humans, its models (for example a recommendation algo) encode each human into a database, and then models you in terms of who you are similar to: for example, a woman between 35 and 45 who speaks Dutch and watches stand-up comedy on Netflix. Everything not standardizable, everything that makes you *you* , gets pushed to the error term of the model. That is hardly human-centric, because it leads to optimizing systems in terms of abstract “typical humans” or “target groups” or whatever. As a result of this situation, **the group was not even in agreement that AI is worth the trouble and the money that it costs** . Two participants argued the opposite sides, both, interestingly, using examples from medicine. The AI-enthusiast noted that AI is getting good at diagnosing medical conditions. The AI-sceptic noted that medicine is not diagnosis-centric, but prognosis-centric; it has no value if it does not improve human life. And the prognosis must always be negotiated with the patient. IT in medicine has historically cheapened the relationship between patient and healer, with the latter ""classifying "" the former in terms of a standard data structure for entry into a database. Somebody quoted recent studies on the use of AI in medicine. The state of the art is: * Diagnostic AI does not perform significantly better than human pathologists. ([Lancet](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landig/article/PIIS2589-7500(19)30123-2/fulltext), [Ar.xiv](https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.07372)) * Few studies do any external validation of results. Additionally, deep learning models are poorly reported. ([Lancet](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landig/article/PIIS2589-7500(19)30123-2/fulltext)) * Incorrect models bias (and therefore deteriorate) the work of human pathologists ([Nature ](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-018-0300-7), [Ar.xiv](https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.07372)) * There are risks that AI will be used to erode the doctor-patient relationship ([Nature ](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-018-0300-7)) Based on this, the participant argued that at the moment there is no use case for AI in medicine. ![image.png](https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/4/47bf93cadf44c888b699b0314dd34e23e6099e08.png) *Image credit: [XKCD ](https://xkcd.com/)* We agreed that not just AI, but all optimization tools are problematic, because they have to make the choice of what, exactly, gets optimized. What tends to get optimized is what the entity deploying the model wants. Traffic is a good example: apparently innocent choices as what to optimize for turn out to have huge consequences. When you design traffic, do you optimize for driver safety? Or for pedestrian safety? Of minimize time spent on the road? Airport layout is designed to maximize pre-flight spending: after you clear security, the only way to the gate goes through a very large duty free shop. This is “optimal”, but not necessary optimal *for you* . We next moved to **data governance** . Data are, of course, AI’s raw material, and only those who have access to data can deploy AI models. A researcher called [Paul Oliver Dehaye](https://paulolivier.dehaye.org/stories/about.html) wants to model discrimination of certain workers. Do do this, he needs to pool the personal data from different individuals into what is called a “data trust”. Data trusts are one of several models for data governance being floated about; the [DECODE project](https://decodeproject.eu/what-decode)’s data commons are another. In this discussion, even the GDPR’s success appears to have some cracks. For example, Uber is using it to refuse it to give drivers their data, claiming that would impact the riders’ privacy. A participant claimed that the GDPR has a blind spot in that it has nothing to say about standards for data portability. U.S. tech companies have a project called Data Transfer, where they are dreaming up those standards, and doing so in a way that will benefit them most (again). Pragmatically, she thought the EU should set its own standards for this. We ended with some **constructive suggestions** . One concerned data governance itself. as noted above, the MyData community and other actors in the tech policy space have made substantial intellectual progress on data governance. Were this progress to be enshrined into EU legislation and standards setting, this would maybe help mitigate the potential of the AI industry to worsen inequalities. For example, saying “everyone has a right to own their data” is not precise enough. It makes a huge difference whether personal data are considered to be a freehold commodity or an unalienable human right. In the former case, people can sell their data to whomever they want: data would thus be like material possessions. In this case, market forces are likely to concentrate their ownership in few hands, because data are much more valuable when aggregated in humongous piles of big data. But in the latter case, data are like the right to freedom. I have it, but I am not allowed to sell myself into slavery. In this scenario, data ownership does not concentrate. Another constructive suggestions concerned enabling a next-generation eIDAS, to allow for “disposable online identities”. These are pairs of cryptographic keys that you would use for the purpose of accessing a service: instead of sanon2696444391ing your ID to the supermarket cashier when you buy alcoholic drinks, you would sanon2696444391 them a statement digitally signed by the registrar that says more or less “the owner of this key pair is over 18”, and then sign it with your private key. This way, the supermarket knows you are over 18, but does not who you are. It does have your public key, but you can also never use that key pair anymore – that’s what makes it disposable. Further suggestions included legislating on mandatory auditability of algorithms (there is even a NGO doing work on this, [AlgorithmWatch](https://algorithmwatch.org/en/)), investments in early data literacy in education, and designing for cultural differences: Europeans care more about privacy, whereas many people in Asia are relatively uninterested in it. ###

Fabrizio

In order to move ahead and to make the most of all ideas and human resources working these days on AI, we need both to understand where potential mobilization is taking place or it might take place, and to have a conceptual framework to move ahead. • Since AI can produce either bad effects (harm) or good effects … the appropriate conceptual framework should offer a definition of bad/good so as to • assess current uses of AI, • mobilize people both “against” bad uses and “for” good uses” • design, experiment and revise alternative “good” uses • Sen’s concept of Substantial Freedom (A Theory of Justice) is a choice: the capability approach, where we consider “good” all moves/actions that improve the capacity/capability of every person to do what considers valuable (not futile capacities, but central to one’s life: dignity, learning, health, freedom to move, human relations, …) • This approach does not incapsulate what is “bad” or “harmful” in a rigid box, but it calls for a participatory/societal assessment of anon2696444391 the general principle should be implemented, an assessment that can be continuously updated through public debate • Not so new: it was used by lawyers in the corporate assessment of “just”/”unjust” fiduciary duties and business judgement rule in the US • Which reminds us that the participatory process/platforms can be of different kinds: • In the judiciary • In working councils • In town councils a la Barcelona • Mixing dialogical/analogical debate Which are the potential ACTORS of mobilization? • Organised Labour: automation, bad jobs, gig economy, low wages • Women: AI machism • Kids: sexual abuses, porno • Citizens: mobility • Citizens: health … a dimension of life where people are becoming awareof bad uses (insurance, use of DNA) Therefore, one should move forward according to the following sequence: • Identify, country by country or even places by places, where people’s concern on bad uses (or on forgone good uses) is high and there it is being organised: i.e. where there is a potential demand for “competence support”, both at conceptual and technological level • Concentrate on these contexts and provide them with the conceptual framework • Turn the “pars destruens” into a “pars costruens” • Building at EU level a network that allows horizontal comparison for the same issues both of threats, actions and results • Ensuring at EU level the availability of a competence centre that deals (not necessarily solve, but ai least identify and tackles) with the meta-obstacles preventing the implementation or curtailing the survival of“good” uses. Complementary activities that emerged from debate: • Following the “substantial freedom” framework a code of behaviour should be established and monitored, by which all categories playing a role in developing algorithms - scientists developing Algorithms, politicians supporting/calling for their use, public and private administrators using them - should ask themselves: What is the effect on the capabilities of people effected by the algorithms? • Analogic/dialogic …. Online/Offline Experimenting platforms combining the two is a priority. In particular, it should be a practice for public administrations and politicians to create dialogic platforms where the above code of behaviour is checked. • Education/sensibilization on the implementation of the above conceptual framework in order to identify good/bad uses is a priority. It should first of all engage kids from a very early age: a new saga of cautionary tales … would help. ---- ##

PRE- FESTIVAL INTERVIEWS

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Overview of all 10 Stories: Generic audience

Experts working at the cutting edge of tech, policy and human rights spaces call for greater consideration to be given to the way that AI is altering the very fabric of society. Both academics and policy makers agree that current AI systems risk amplifying existing human biases that entrench inequality - not least because of the widespread, and misguided, perception that data is inherently neutral. Systems for the reporting of sexual assault, for example, are encoded with developers’ assumptions about sexual violence which do not grasp the complexity of victims’ experiences. Those working and researching in the field caution that AI systems are only as unbiased as the humans who build them, and that continuing to give AI undue weight will cause serious harm to the most vulnerable in society. Across medicine, law, entrepreneurship and gender studies, concern is growing that the pressure to innovate for its own sake comes at great risk to privacy, protection and human rights. Experts caution that companies in both the public and private sectors are rushing to implement technology they don’t fully understand, and that it is crucial due care and consideration is taken when building these systems to ensure they are value-driven and accountable. Unchecked digitisation in the fields of medicine, social work and the reporting of sexual assault fails to recognise human needs which are more nuanced, individualised and unpredictable than AI can fathom. It is critical we ensure that AI is designed and used in such a way that it serves society’s needs – not the other way around. #### Examples from each story * Marco: In predictive medicine, there are so many biological variables that scaling data up can decrease precision * Corinne: complex encryption systems built to protect an activist were found to be lacking when a police officer simply stole his phone from his hand. * Peter: * Seda: * Hugi: * Kate: * Justin: mentioned two examples in a comment somewhere… * Oliver: * Fabrizio: * Alberto: ####

Social media updates for media-friendly summary articles

1. Self-reinforcing loop of data puts human rights at risk 2. Unchecked digital expansion could be a force for democratisation – or further entrench inequality 3. It is critical that AI serves people – not the other way around. 4. Discourse must move from technology to societal impact 5. Perception of data as inherently neutral is dangerous to society 6. Putting human rights at the forefront of digital expansion is critical 7. One-size-fits all approach to AI in public services breeds division and intolerance 8. Interoperability key to sustainable innovation 9. Meaningful debate on AI must be prioritised above innovation. 10. Digital space currently failing to protect women and victims of sexual violence ###

The rush to implement AI too widely and simplistically could have disastrous consequences

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A conversation with Marco Manca

Marco Manca is an interdisciplinary researcher in mathematics and informational systems with an educational background in medicine. He founded the [SCimPulse Foundation](http://www.scimpulse.org/about-us/), which he still directs, and is also part of several scientific organisations and commissions, including the working group of NATO for human control over auanon2863106368omous systems. Marko feels there is a lot of excitement about AI and a push to accelerate its implementation widely - but that it is crucial we consider AI a “nifty tool” to use with awareness, rather than an impeccable “leader” that must not be questioned. AI systems are only as good as the data inputted and the questions asked of them by humans. This means that the conclusions returned are not free of human biases, but rather potentially amplify them. Essentially, as they are used now, AI systems simply return the same results as humans would, just “faster and dumber.” This is a concern because of the rush to implement AI, particularly in the field of medicine. In medicine there is an expectation of precision, but with so many biological variables, the more precise you get the more you diverge, so large scale information potentially becomes less valuable. For example, in the 1970s, various tools were introduced to help doctors predict the likelihood of certain diseases, but attempts to refine these profiles over the years have hit a barrier. Just as you could play a lottery with 1/1000 odds every day for a thousand days and still not win, there is a crucial difference between “the destiny of the person in front of you right now, the destiny of every similar person.” His argument is not that we should not be developing AI, but that we must consider anon2696444391 we develop and implement it and anon2696444391 we contextualize the information it gives us. If we simply scale up the information we work with now without being informed about the risks, we risk causing serious damage. **Participate in the conversation with Marco here:** [What does it take to build a successful movement for citizens to gain control over when, anon2696444391 and to what use automated systems are introduced and used in society?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-it-take-to-build-a-successful-movement-for-citizens-to-gain-control-over-when-anon2696444391-and-to-what-use-automated-systems-are-introduced-and-used-in-society/11075/2) ###

AI is changing the fabric of society - it is crucial to ensure it serves people, not the other way around.

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A conversation with Seda F. Gürses

With an undergrad degree in international relations and mathematics, Seda is now an academic at Delft University, focussing on anon2696444391 to do computer science differently - utilising a interdisciplinary approach to explore both concepts of privacy and surveillance, and also looking at what communities need. They were led into this field of study by their fascination with the politics of mathematics and the biases contained within seemingly neutral numbers. The technological landscape has changed enormously in the past few years — from static software saved on a disk that was only updated every once in a while, to software and apps that are held on services and so constantly updated and optimised. A whole new host of privacy and security issues have arisen, and thus the need for a computer science which secures and protects the needs of its users. The negative consequences of prioritising optimisation over user experience can be seen in Google Maps and Way, which sends users down service roads to avoid freeway traffic. They don’t care that this has an adverse impact on the environment and local communities, or even that it actually causes congestion in smaller roads. Further, Uber has optimised its system to outsource risk to its workers: instead of paying people for the time they work, Uber offers them a system that tells them when they are most likely to get customers so that they can manage their individual risk. When this kind of tech injustice is applied to public institutions such as borders and social welfare systems, the discrimination embedded in the very systems mean we are changing the fabric of society without having the necessary discussions as to whether that’s something we want to do. We need to stop talking about data and algorithms and focus on the forms of government we want these technologies to have. It is crucial that the computational infrastructure boosted by AI serves people, not the other way around. **Participate in the conversation with Seda here:** coming soon ###

Tech is not the simple solution to complex social situations.

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A conversation with Peter Bihr

Pbihir co-founded ThingsCon community which advocates for a responsible, human-centric approach to the Internet of Things. Smart Cities, where the digital and physical meet and where algorithms actively impact our daily lives, is an important focal point of his work. He proposes reframing the Smart City discourse (currently dominated by vendors of Smart City tech) away from the technology and more towards a focus on societal impact. What better urban metrics can we apply to cities increasingly governed or shaped by algorithms? Such an analytical framework would be the key to unlocking a real, meaningful debate. Smart City policies must be built around citizen/digital, human rights, and with emphasis on participatory processes, transparency and accountability. At the most recent ThingsCon conference, Manon den Dunnen shared her experience of unintended horrific consequences of tech going wrong when police officers take phone numbers of both victims and suspects, and then Facebook algorithms then suggest one another as friends. Further, several studies have sanon2696444391n policing and/or justice related algorithms were found to have racist data points (including some deemed illegal by courts yet remained in the data sets). And the policing algorithm in NYC measures effectiveness by such simplistic metrics that created incentive for officers to report selectively (for example, the systemic intimidation of rape victims to change their charge from rape to a more minor offence). **Participate in the conversation with Peter here:** [How can we put humans/citizens first in our smart city policies?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-we-put-humans-citizens-first-in-our-smart-city-policies/9878/40) ###

Unchecked digital expansion could entrench existing biases and power inequality.

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A conversation with Corinne Cath-Speth

With a background in human rights and policy, Corinne Cath-Speth worked as a policy officer for a human rights NGO in London before coming to the Oxford Internet Institute and the Alan Turing Institute to pursue her PhD. Her research focuses on human rights advocacy efforts within Internet governance, with a broader interest of anon2696444391 human rights NGOs are responding to the new (and old) challenges raised by emerging technologies. In working with human rights activists, anon3708943593 saw that digital technologies - like social media - can give the plight of activists more visibility, but that often these same technologies entrench existing power inequalities and biases. She became interested in studying what happens when activists try to change the infrastructure of the internet itself, rather than simply use it. A number of well-known human rights organizations like the ACLU and EFF, actively do so by contributing to Internet governance fora. She found that these organizations are welcome and can operate in these spaces with relative ease, given their open and multistakeholder nature. At the same time, she also saw that while getting the tech “right” is an important part of the puzzle of human rights advocacy in the digital age, it is also a narrow frame through which to understand the broad spectrum of social concerns raised by networked technologies. anon3708943593’s work in Internet governance also led her to consider human rights advocacy in AI governance, as AI systems are raising a host of questions regarding privacy, safety, anti-discrimination and other human rights. One of the problems with developing AI advocacy programs is that many of these systems are developed by private companies, so it is difficult to gain access to their technology to examine and understand it. Many NGOs are therefore calling for the regulation of AI systems, but are facing pushback, with companies arguing that it hampers innovation. Yet, it is this same “innovation” that encourages many governments to deploy AI systems. A drive for “innovation” for innovation’s sake is particularly concerning when it encourages governments to step into technologies that they don’t fully understand or even need. Obviously, a lot of human rights NGOs have been worried about these various dynamics for a while and are consistently raising their concerns— sometimes by bringing in academic work to sanon2696444391 some of these issues. Human Rights Watch, for example, has a great program as does Amnesty International, Privacy International and Article 19. Several of the largest human rights NGOs are focusing on issues of AI systems and bias. But they’re also forced to play whack-a-mole as the application of AI systems becomes more common. How to focus your resources? Which companies and applications are most concerning? Which solutions most tractable and comprehensive? Do we need sectoral guidelines, or do we need guidelines which focus on impact? Do we need self-regulatory ethics frameworks or hard data protection frameworks? All of the above? These are the issues I see a lot of NGOs grapple with and are questions I hope to discuss with you on this platform. **Participate in the conversation with Corinne here:** [What does the future of civil society advocacy look like, given the prevalence of these digital technologies and their impact on the work that civil society is currently doing? ](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-the-future-of-civil-society-advocacy-look-like-given-the-prevalence-of-these-digital-technologies-and-their-impact-on-the-work-that-civil-society-is-currently-doing/11118/16) ###

Self-reinforcing loop of data could put human rights at risk.

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A conversation with Justin Nogarede

Justin Nogarede works for the Foundation for European Progressive Studies, was previously at the European Commission focussing on competition law and European regulations. As a trainee in the application law unit at the European Commission, he became aware of the issues involved in ensuring member states comply with EU law, finding that often there isn’t the staff or resources available to enforce directives - for example, the directive on data protection has existed since 1995, but was not widely enforced. Justin now focuses more on data governance, and is finding that as new digital infrastructures are rolled out, they are driven by narrow efficiency concerns and are not accountable. Looking into these new infrastructures is a great opportunity to make the system more participatory and accountable - but we have to take it. Feeding existing data into AI systems can create problems - for example, when predictive policing has been sanon2696444391n to drive more officers into wealthy areas, as data sanon2696444391s a higher rate of arrests in those areas. Data therefore creates a self-reinforcing loop. Further, digital systems often rely on a binary logic, which healthcare and social problems simply don’t fit. The key problem is that data is a simplification of the real world. Further, some AI systems may support a conservative bias, such as when they are used to predict which offenders are most likely to reoffend. Regulation of digital infrastructure would be a step in the right direction, and the argument that it would stifle innovation is weak - technological advances must make sense and make lives better. It may not be possible to have 100% compliance, but more involvement of public authorities (even at local level) would be a good step, as would more transparency over anon2696444391 these technologies function. Why is all this innovation not channelled into ways for people to live a better life? **Participate in the conversation with Justin here:** [Why is all this innovation not being channeled into ways for people to help them live a better life?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/why-is-all-this-innovation-not-being-channeled-into-ways-for-people-to-help-them-live-a-better-life/11443/3) ###

Distributed systems promise great possibilities - and challenges.

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A conversation with Hugi Asgeirsson

Earlier this year, Hugi was in Berlin for the Data Terra Nemo conference, focussing on decentralised web applications which are hosted without traditional servers, allowing for a lot of interesting applications. They were inspired by the human-centric community that has grown up around ‘gossip’ protocols like Scuttlebutt. It seems to be forming a playground where new and radical ideas can be tested and implemented. The original developer of Scuttlebutt, Dominic Tarr, describes his MO as: “not to build the next big thing, but rather to build the thing that inspires the next big thing, that way you don’t have to maintain it” and this seems to have set the anon2863106368e for Scuttlebutt itself. One of the core elements of Scuttlebutt is that users can host data for other people on the network without being directly connected to them. This has the positive effect that users in countries where internet usage is highly restricted can connect via other users - though on the other hand, this also means that users could unwittingly be hosting information they would rather not propagate. There have been instances of the Norwegian alt-right using Scuttlebutt to communicate. Scuttlebutt has been working to address this issue but solutions are imperfect so far. The bottom line is that distributed systems such as Scuttlebutt are both democratising and empowering and they come with a whole new set of possibilities and challenges. **Participate in the conversation with Hugi here:** [Data Terra Nemo: First report & Scuttlebutt](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/data-terra-nemo-first-report-scuttlebutt/9928/4) ###

Open-source technology and interoperability are key to sustainable innovation

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A conversation with Oliver Sauter

There is an accepted “law” of entrepreneurship: in order to build something valuable, you have to be ten times better than what already exists (as proven by Google + which arguably had better some better features than Facebook but failed to tempt people away). Why does this law exist and what can we do to change it? BlackforestBoi believes it comes down to: Costs to switch (time and mental effort) > additional benefit offered *~10. Such growth requirement has produced some great leaps in innovation - but these come with downsides. How would the world look if we focused more on incremental innovations? What is holding us back? The way companies make money for one: the 2nd quarter of 2018, Facebook lost $120bn (billion!) in stock value within 48 hours, the biggest loss of any company in history. The reason: It posted the least growth since its founding, while still making 5BN in profits the same quarter and growing by 42% since the last year. Secondly data and social lock ins creates counter incentives for interoperable formats which would make it easier for users to migrate between services or integrate them, Breaking this dynamic would require tackling the problem from multiple angles: namely allowing users to move freely between services, creating economic models that reward quality of service rather than simple growth, and ideally adopting Open-Source software to allow companies to build on one another’s work. WorldBrain (dot) io is building open-source software in an attempt to enable incremental innovation, the foundation of which is Memex - an open-source privacy tool. Interoperability is baked deep into the core of Memex, it is fully open-source and WorldBrain (dot) io has no stock value, so is entirely focussed on building a sustainable service. **Participate in the conversation with Oliver here:** [Startups’ grand illusion: You have to be 10x better than whats there](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/startups-grand-illusion-you-have-to-be-10x-better-than-whats-there/10221/14) ###

Civic organisations are key to turning AI technology into a force for civil justice

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A conversation with Fabrizio Barca

With a varied background in banking and treasury and more recently inequalities and justice, Fabrizio previously worked at the EU and now with a civic organisation called the Forum for Inequality and Diversity. The current crisis in Western countries is driven by inequality - in particular the paradox that we have the technology to create equality but instead it is producing an unprecedented concentration of knowledge and power in very few hands. This must be addressed by putting political pressure on the issues. State-owned enterprises and collective platforms where people can put together data that everyone has access to could turn these technologies into forces for social justice. A one-size-fits all approach to AI in public administration grows resentment. It deprives people of the most important thing - human connection and a sense of being recognised - which breeds intolerance, division and a loss of trust in democracy. Fabrizio is just coming to understand anon2696444391 effective civic organisations can be, not just in advocacy work but in taking action to shape services in local areas. He hopes to gain even more understanding through discussing the topics with a mix of people from different backgrounds. **Learn More :** [Conversation with Fabrizio Barca Founder, Forum on Inequalities and diversity I Ex General Director, Italian Ministry of Economy & Finance](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-conversation-with-fabrizio-barca-founder-forum-on-inequalities-and-diversity-i-ex-general-director-italian-ministry-of-economy-finance/11545/2) ###

Digital spaces currently failing to protect women and victims of sexual violence

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A conversation with Kate J Sim

A PhD researcher at Oxford Internet Institute, anon2594087572 studies the intersection of gender-based violence and emerging technologies. Her work focuses on issues of trust, gender and sexual politics, and the double-edged role of technology in facilitating connections but also targeted harassment. While organising against campus violence she personally experienced cyberharassment and lack of support from law enforcement. More resources have become available since then, but we need to change anon2696444391 we conceptualise these issues and fundamentally change the design of the platforms. She helped to form a cross-campus network that grew to a nonprofit organisation, Know Your IX. The space requires better structures in place to support mental health and protection from cyberharassment to reduce burnout. Research sanon2696444391s again and again that women, especially women of colour, tend to self-censor and reduce their visibility in order to survive - it is crucial we put more safeguarding in place to protect them. Digital systems designed to facilitate disclosures, collect evidence and automate reporting of sexual assault are attractive to institutions because of their efficiency - and to some extent to victims as they are perceived to be objective and neutral. However, these systems have bias encoded in them. The designers are working with their own understanding of sexual violence, which may not match victims’ experiences. Some victims don’t have the data literacy or English level to work the systems, which could compound their trauma. Further, the pressure to report is encoded into the design of these systems, but this is a misguided emphasis on a single optimal solution, which is not appropriate for all victims. De-emphasising reporting and focussing on “small data” driven by relationship building can create a structured conversation which is rich, insightful and telling. Rather than asking anon2696444391 tech can be fixed for the better, the more urgent and important question is: who and what are we overlooking when we turn to tech solutions? How can we support practitioners in anti-violence space, like social workers, jurors and judges, and advocates, with data and tech literacy, so that they have control over anon2696444391 they interpret and act on data? **Participate in the conversation with Kate here:** [Can tech design for survivors? How sex, violence, and power are encoded into the design and implementation of data/AI-driven sexual misconduct reporting systems](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/can-tech-design-for-survivors-anon2696444391-sex-violence-and-power-are-encoded-into-the-design-and-implementation-of-data-ai-driven-sexual-misconduct-reporting-systems/11193/6) ###

Focus on scalar indicators is driven by need to describe reality, not change it.

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A conversation with Alberto Cottica

Alberto had been hoping that ehnography-at-scale via SSNA could integrate, if not replace, the indicator paradigm, but after trying to get people to assess their own willingness to pay for, say, avoiding the extinction of some type of frog in Madagascar, or lowering the PM10 content by 10%, he found convincing evidence that we could never trust our results He refers to James Scott’s convincing argument for scalar indicators being propelled by the modernist ideology that underpin the coalescing of modern states. This works for states but not so much for people. Modern states have created a demand for scalar indicators, but this has more to do with their thirst for administrative order than with a drive to understand what is really going on. **Participate in the conversation with Alberto here:** [On assessing impact, and what Edgeryders could do in that department](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/on-assessing-impact-and-what-anon1577251828-could-do-in-that-department/10708)" 2,66401,2019-11-30T08:07:04.961Z,12014,0,18,17,0,0,0,3.6,66346,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"NB: We need to have content tagged up with these tags to enable us to see clusters of discussions where they pop up AI Social justice principles Data governance Markets & Data ethics gender Inequality technology wellbeing digital artificial Intelligence internet platform internet-of-things welfare machine-learning fairness digital-democracy blockchain justice artificial-intelligence internet-infrastructure platform-economy gig-economy precarity europe algorithms bias" 3,66476,2019-11-30T10:00:16.036Z,12014,0,18,17,2,0,0,13.6,66346,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,hi @anon2559300400 @anon 1,65011,2019-11-21T15:22:55.413Z,11699,0,23,22,576,0,0,3046.6,65011,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"![Edgeryders-Fest-FB-1200x628-AI-fabrizio-01|690x361,50%](upload://nbXjYYUNmT2z7jw7wbjIOYXgtBf.png) I participated in the recent NGI Forward [workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI](/t/10326) organized by Edgeryders. I was part of the discussion on scenarios for the regulation of AI, moderated by Justin Nogarede. The format was unusual, at least for me: a [fishbowl discussion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishbowl_(conversation)) with four invited guests acting as icebreakers. These were **Marco Manca** @anon2619552108 (Member of Nato's Working group on Meaningful Human Control over AI-based systems); **Seda Gürses** @anon425414391 (Department of Multi-Actor Systems at TU Delft); Justin @anon3835921950 : and myself. The People in the fishbowl kicked off, but then we melted in the general discussion as others stepped up to make contributions and ask questions. This worked very well, and enabled a lively discussion. In general, **the group felt the need to spend anon2373157426 some time to get a grip on a shared idea of what AI actually is**, and anon2696444391 it works, before he could discuss its regulation. Occasionally, the discussion veered into being anon2373157426 technical, and not everybody could follow it all the time, even if we had an over-representation of computer scientists and digital activists. This is in itself a result: if this crowd struggles to get it, democratic participation is going to be pretty difficult for the general public. We used [Chatham House rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatham_House_Rule), so I in what follows I do not attribute statements to anyone in particular. We kicked off by reminding ourselves that the new von der Leyen Commission has promised to [tackle AI within the first 100 days of taking office](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/commentary/blog-post/von-der-leyen-new-commission-take-aim-at-ai-legislation/). Brussels is mostly happy with anon2696444391 the GDPR thing played out, that is by recognizing the EU as the de facto ""regulatory superpower"". The AI regulation in the pipeline is expected to have a similar effect to that of GDPR. **Participants then expressed some concern around the challenges of regulating AI**. For example: * A directive may be the wrong instrument. The law is good at enshrining principles (""human-centric AI""), but in the tech industry we are seeing *everyone*, including FAANG, claiming to adhere to the same principles. What we seem to be missing is an accountable process to translate principles into technical choices. For example, elsewhere I have told the story of anon2696444391 the developers of [Scuttlebutt](https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/) justified their refusal to give their users multiple-device accounts in terms of values: ""we want to serve the underconnected, and those guys do not own multiple devices. Multiple device account is a first world problem, and should be deprioritized"". * The AI story is strongly vendor-driven: a solution looking for a problem. Lawmaking as a process is naturally open to the contribution of industry, and this openness risks giving even more market power to the incumbents. * AI uses big data and lots of computing power, so it tends to live in the cloud as infrastructure. But the cloud is itself super-concentrated, it is infrastructure in few private hands. The rise of AI brings even more momentum to the concentration process. This brings us back to an intuition that has been circulating in this forum, namely that [you need antitrust policy to do tech policy](t/10868/2), at least in the current situation. * The term ""AI"" has come to mean ""machine learning on big data"". The governance of the data themselves is an unsolved problem, with major consequences for AI. In the health sector, for example, clinical data tend to be simply entrusted to large companies: the British NHS [gave them](https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2019%2F09%2F19%2Ffive_nhs_trusts_do_data_deal_with_google_one_says_no%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHAd8EamUp9LY1ulHdC7mufXEXJcQ) to Deep Mind; a [similar operation](https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Feuropa.today.it%2Fattualita%2Funa-scelleratezza-consegnare-le-cartelle-cliniche-degli-italiani-all-ibm-rossi-attacca-il-governo.html&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFKARv42-MfE-a-cJN4t3VXIOvu6g) between the Italian government and IBM Watson was attempted, but failed, because data governance in Italy is with the regions, and they refused to release the data. We learned much about the state of the art of the reflection on data governance at MyData2019: to our surprise [there appears to be a consensus](/t/10893) among scholars on anon2696444391 to go about data governance, but it is not being translated into law. That work is *very* unfinished, and it should be finished *before* opening the AI can of worms. * AI has a large carbon footprint. Even when it does improve on actual human problems, it does so at the cost of worsening the climate, not in a win-win scenario. * The Internet should be ""human-centric"". But machine learning is basically statistical analysis: high-dimensional multivariate statistical models. When it is done on humans, its models (for example a recommendation algo) encode each human into a database, and then models you in terms of who you are similar to: for example, a woman between 35 and 45 who speaks Dutch and watches stand-up comedy on Netflix. Everything not standardizable, everything that makes you *you*, gets pushed to the error term of the model. That is hardly human-centric, because it leads to optimizing systems in terms of abstract ""typical humans"" or ""target groups"" or whatever. As a result of this situation, **the group was not even in agreement that AI is worth the trouble and the money that it costs**. Two participants argued the opposite sides, both, interestingly, using examples from medicine. The AI-enthusiast noted that AI is getting good at diagnosing medical conditions. The AI-sceptic noted that medicine is not diagnosis-centric, but prognosis-centric; it has no value if it does not improve human life. And the prognosis must always be negotiated with the patient. IT in medicine has historically cheapened the relationship between patient and healer, with the latter ""classifying "" the former in terms of a standard data structure for entry into a database. Somebody quoted recent studies on the use of AI in medicine. The state of the art is: * Diagnostic AI does not perform significantly better than human pathologists. ([Lancet](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landig/article/PIIS2589-7500(19)30123-2/fulltext), [Ar.xiv](https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.07372)) * Few studies do any external validation of results. Additionally, deep learning models are poorly reported. ([Lancet](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landig/article/PIIS2589-7500(19)30123-2/fulltext)) * Incorrect models bias (and therefore deteriorate) the work of human pathologists ([Nature](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-018-0300-7), [Ar.xiv](https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.07372)) * There are risks that AI will be used to erode the doctor-patient relationship ([Nature](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-018-0300-7)) Based on this, the participant argued that at the moment there is no use case for AI in medicine. ![image|583x690](upload://aeIlSz6Ik4oTUfCoDyxG84J1Yo0.png) *Image credit: [XKCD](https://xkcd.com/)* We agreed that not just AI, but all optimization tools are problematic, because they have to make the choice of what, exactly, gets optimized. What tends to get optimized is what the entity deploying the model wants. Traffic is a good example: apparently innocent choices as what to optimize for turn out to have huge consequences. When you design traffic, do you optimize for driver safety? Or for pedestrian safety? Of minimize time spent on the road? Airport layout is designed to maximize pre-flight spending: after you clear security, the only way to the gate goes through a very large duty free shop. This is ""optimal"", but not necessary optimal *for you*. We next moved to **data governance**. Data are, of course, AI's raw material, and only those who have access to data can deploy AI models. A researcher called [Paul Oliver Dehaye](https://paulolivier.dehaye.org/stories/about.html) wants to model discrimination of certain workers. Do do this, he needs to pool the personal data from different individuals into what is called a ""data trust"". Data trusts are one of several models for data governance being floated about; the [DECODE project](https://decodeproject.eu/what-decode)'s data commons are another. In this discussion, even the GDPR's success appears to have some cracks. For example, Uber is using it to refuse it to give drivers their data, claiming that would impact the riders' privacy. A participant claimed that the GDPR has a blind spot in that it has nothing to say about standards for data portability. U.S. tech companies have a project called Data Transfer, where they are dreaming up those standards, and doing so in a way that will benefit them most (again). Pragmatically, she thought the EU should set its own standards for this. We ended with some **constructive suggestions**. One concerned data governance itself. as noted above, the MyData community and other actors in the tech policy space have made substantial intellectual progress on data governance. Were this progress to be enshrined into EU legislation and standards setting, this would maybe help mitigate the potential of the AI industry to worsen inequalities. For example, saying ""everyone has a right to own their data"" is not precise enough. It makes a huge difference whether personal data are considered to be a freehold commodity or an unalienable human right. In the former case, people can sell their data to whomever they want: data would thus be like material possessions. In this case, market forces are likely to concentrate their ownership in few hands, because data are much more valuable when aggregated in humongous piles of big data. But in the latter case, data are like the right to freedom. I have it, but I am not allowed to sell myself into slavery. In this scenario, data ownership does not concentrate. Another constructive suggestions concerned enabling a next-generation eIDAS, to allow for ""disposable online identities"". These are pairs of cryptographic keys that you would use for the purpose of accessing a service: instead of sanon2696444391ing your ID to the supermarket cashier when you buy alcoholic drinks, you would sanon2696444391 them a statement digitally signed by the registrar that says more or less ""the owner of this key pair is over 18"", and then sign it with your private key. This way, the supermarket knows you are over 18, but does not who you are. It does have your public key, but you can also never use that key pair anymore – that's what makes it disposable. Further suggestions included legislating on mandatory auditability of algorithms (there is even a NGO doing work on this, [AlgorithmWatch](https://algorithmwatch.org/en/)), investments in early data literacy in education, and designing for cultural differences: Europeans care more about privacy, whereas many people in Asia are relatively uninterested in it.

### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png)" 2,66306,2019-11-29T11:06:12.922Z,11699,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,65011,anon659222949,anon3379761435,@anon1965424313 & @anon 1,66299,2019-11-29T10:29:58.968Z,11999,0,9,8,8,0,0,71.8,66299,anon3380346449,anon3380346449,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Workshop on Service design in a climate emergency - What do digital services in a world of net-zero look like ? **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** Designing and creatingh great software people love. Composing music. Spending time with my kids. Helping others create new businesses. Finding a way to do this in a way that helps combat climate change. Never again: working with complacent mediocre attitudes. **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** An idea using emerging or cutting edge technology that I think could help people enjoy life more, be healthier or be more productive that perhaps wasn't possible before the technology was available. Currently that's the big advances in natural language processing that hit a tipping point early 2018. I got started many years ago when I discovered the magic of creating software: a skill where the system you create can interact with the world BY ITSELF!. Vs writing or music or art which needs to be observed. I always have time for others that are interested. I think everyone should be able to write scripts -- not necessarily coding per se, but to be able to learn about algorithms: loops and if then/else. **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** I think I can contribute mostly drawing from my skills and experience working with internet technologies for the past 25 years. I'm fairly well-grounded in what is possible and what is science fiction. I'm also very creative. The key thing is finding ways to work professionally and fulfilling by helping combat climate change. **name:** Julian Harris" 2,66301,2019-11-29T10:43:41.361Z,11999,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,66299,anon1753543892,anon3380346449,Great to have you here! Your experience and openness is greatly appreciated. 1,65573,2019-11-25T02:52:15.442Z,11863,0,16,15,7,0,0,128.2,65573,anon4194619836,anon4194619836,"Aloha! **What is a burning question that drives your work?** How does one co-survive with any degree of mindfulness, artfulness & elegance in a dysfunctional global system where sick societies are normal? Clearly there are few like us but certainly there must be more. Where are our people? How do we meet up & work together? **How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way?** We got started young, helped by [Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Spring) & the realization that previous generations had really screwed things up & contemporary generations seemed incapable of fixing things. Running away into the ""woods"" provided brief respite & we saw them consumed in the name of BAU development & economic progress. Warned by our *""betters""* that we best get in line, we rebelled becoming outcasts. We lived our lives between protesting on the streets & in the woods, self-directed education, escapist activities, freelance art work, extreme sports & running away. The shutting down of the alternative press, the rise of new media & the Internet necessitated new strategies. Our biggest hurdles involve procuring food & shelter, in both urban & rural environments. We've lost opportunities when identified as being dysfunctional to the dysfunctional system. Institutions do a good job filtering out people like us, we've done best in new programs & usually see the door slammed on our backsides to prevent more like us from entering. We often find ourselves where none like us have gone before except in dim memory, myth or legend & none may follow for a variety of reasons. Our understanding is that this is the way the system functions to keep us separated from like-minded fellow travelers. The system appears to fear our gathering in groups, so that is what we seek. **Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward?** We work in the arts, writing fiction & nonfiction, media production & performance; the soft sciences, personal & social psychology; & technology, media production tech support & coding for a networked world. We're now developing & refining a focus on data science, AI, machine learning, & deep learning in several dimensions of sentiment analysis & data mining & data visualization. Our only doubts lie in judging the efficacy of our work. Clearly we excel in academics & production but we only seem to benefit when found useful & manageable by exploitive agents of BAU. The more our cognitive ability, theory & perception evolve the harder it becomes to find acceptance from gatekeepers. It seems to us that the path forward lies in the intersection of the work we do, especially in collaboration, which emerges as a requirement. It's not exactly clear what that is. It appears to be like driving an unknown road at night, only able to see what's in the headlights & no further. **What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?** We prefer being open to what fellow travelers perceive as their needs in the way of support. We do not recommend our particular path to anyone & acknowledge that we may cross paths for unknowable reasons & appreciate input from people we happen to meet. Clearly, we do not know anon2696444391 to deal with this system. We do not know what people need. We tend to be averse to those who revel in identifying ""enemies"" as we see that impulse emerging from paranoid-schizoid defenses and it only serves the dysfunctional system to divide us. That said, we do understand there are some very damaged & dangerous people out here that seek to exploit all they meet, we've met a few & see many on TV gaining celebrity status. So, perhaps the best we offer is in the way of suggesting tools & techniques useful for growing positive progressive communities." 2,65587,2019-11-25T08:17:42.925Z,11863,2,14,13,1,0,0,47.8,65573,anon1753543892,anon4194619836,"@anon4194619836, great to have you here. Are you aready involved with this discussion on co-living? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/sprint-to-the-reef-co-design-communal-and-green-living-join-in-brussels-november-28th/11175" 3,65620,2019-11-25T11:15:19.967Z,11863,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,65587,anon2197402769,anon1753543892,"Welcome! Just a feedback to your short post (which of course cannot transport all the thoughts you have about these topics) and to the image that it transports to me: * to me it reads anon2373157426 ""dark"" and it reads a bit as if you also would describe enemies or obstacles (""the system"", ""sick societies"") yourself. * I do have the impression that communities and collectives all over the world are forming and getting much stronger and more ""grounded"" (e.g. introspecting the culture that they live and the ideals they try to live by). * I would not share the image / narrative that something tries to prevent that (people meet and try new stuff) from happening; there are plenty of initiatives trying to keep up with mapping all the projects that are done. Sure, there could be more and better support (and that will always be true). But it is amazing to see all that is happening. * I also do not really see the ""heroes from myth and legend"" that try hard and then see doors shut behind them from institutions. Its sounds like legend-building to me. Which system tries to keep you away from like-minded fellow travelers? Psychological? Couple dynamics? Neighbourhoods? States? Nation States? Capital itself? Global influencers? ... Maybe the picture describes the situation in the US - i cannot judge that - but my experiences in the EU are anon2373157426 different. That being said, it looks like a good starting point for a journey! I hope you will be able to bring in your skills where they are needed. :dove:" 4,65966,2019-11-26T23:47:33.022Z,11863,0,9,8,1,1,0,21.8,65620,anon4194619836,anon2197402769,"Aloha @anon2197402769, thank you for your candid reply. You seem correct in seeing anon2696444391 it reads anon2373157426 ""dark"". Your honesty is appreciated. [quote=""anon2197402769, post:3, topic:11863""] to me it reads anon2373157426 “dark” and it reads a bit as if you also would describe enemies or obstacles (“the system”, “sick societies”) yourself. [/quote] Perhaps we did not write with enough nuance. Sorry for the confusion. We do not consider dysfunction systems or sick societies as enemies, only something in great need of deep change, and being part of the hurdles we've faced in the context of the question we were answering. [quote=""anon2197402769, post:3, topic:11863""] Maybe the picture describes the situation in the US [/quote] The current economic system in America, Chomsky says, is so **dysfunctional** “that it cannot put eager hands to needed work using the resources that would be readily available if the economy were designed to serve human needs rather than wealth beyond the dreams of avarice for a privileged few.” “The whole educational and professional training system is a very elaborate filter, which just weeds out people who are too independent, and who think for themselves, and who don’t know anon2696444391 to be submissive, and so on — because they’re **dysfunctional** to the institutions.” Noam Chomsky https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-democratic-party-centrism-risks-handing-election-to-trump/ **“And only those who stand outside the failed institutions can lead this effort.” George Monbiot** **“So, if you don’t fit in, if you feel at odds with the world, if your identity is troubled and frayed, if you feel lost and ashamed – it could be because you have retained the human values you were supposed to have discarded. You are a deviant. Be proud.” George Monbiot** https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2756187?guestAccessKey=c1202c42-e6b9-4c99-a936-0976a270551f&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=112619 [quote=""anon2197402769, post:3, topic:11863""] but my experiences in the EU are anon2373157426 different. [/quote] This is truly good news and confirms our choice to join Edgeryders and look towards Europe. We're now planning to move half-way to Europe as we now live on the other side of the globe from your continent. That is the extent of our budget. The move will land us in the Ohio River Valley. We wish you well in all your endeavors, hopefully we will be able to meet you in person one day. Thanks again for your valuable input." 5,65970,2019-11-27T00:12:45.579Z,11863,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,65587,anon4194619836,anon1753543892,"Aloha @anon1753543892 and thank you very much! We are now following the discussion at https://anon1577251828.eu/t/sprint-to-the-reef-co-design-communal-and-green-living-join-in-brussels-november-28th/11175 and remain alert to where it might be appropriate to get involved with the discussion. Thank you again, very much @anon1753543892!" 6,66265,2019-11-28T19:27:06.539Z,11863,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,65573,anon3203746736,anon4194619836,"anon4194619836 I wish you good fortune in your quest. ""Where are our people"" is a question for all of us." 1,63951,2019-11-13T00:09:07.431Z,11510,0,19,18,12,0,0,108.8,63951,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"Leave a quick intro to yourself and the topics you're generally interested in. Where you're based, what you're good at, what traits in a person do you appreciate and not, who in particular you're interested in talking to?" 2,63990,2019-11-13T14:11:32.136Z,11510,2,18,17,1,0,0,63.6,63951,anon3293944081,anon3554387720,"I'm Olivia Khan-do. I'm gonna facilitate the frick out of y'all Berlin based go-getter from sunny Scotland. I'm a certified professional fluffer and a (semi) rational optimist. I use humour as a coping mechanism, I'm hopelessly naive and come with boundless enthusiasm. I'll like people who ask before offering me advice and dislike when people interrupt others. I like to talk kink, literature, tech and self development" 3,64026,2019-11-13T20:11:41.365Z,11510,2,16,15,1,0,0,18.2,63990,anon3828707713,anon3293944081,ping @anon1753543892 in case you two have not yet met 4,64028,2019-11-13T20:20:12.933Z,11510,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,64026,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,We have met in a call and will meet in person tomorrow at Blanon2066456771de :) 5,64029,2019-11-13T20:38:06.913Z,11510,0,17,16,1,0,0,38.4,63951,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"Hey I am Oliver, usually based in Berlin, currently nomading around. (next stop Berlin, Stockholm, Barcelona, Black Forest, Bali, Berlin) I am good at understanding complex issues and thinking myself through problems (sometimes a bit too deep. Keyword: overengineering). I consider myself a good listener and being able to endure cognitive dissonance. I admire people that build bridges, dream a lot, face their shadows and own their shit. I dislike people who interrupt others, argue in bad faith. I don't dislike but have troubles with people that avoid working on things that don't work well for them. My topics: Collective Intelligence, governance, Steward Ownership, Game B, Tantric teachings, cultural observations (especially all those around cultural divide, misinformation etc)" 6,64032,2019-11-13T21:20:06.000Z,11510,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,64026,anon3293944081,anon3828707713,Hopefully we will meet in person tomorrow :D 7,64094,2019-11-14T18:41:46.310Z,11510,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,63990,anon3203746736,anon3293944081,Are you really a fluffer? 8,64144,2019-11-15T09:48:24.692Z,11510,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,63951,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"@anon2616197748 and @anon3554387720, anon2696444391 do you feel about adding some more social mingling time to your events? Maybe @anon3293944081 would have some good input on that?" 9,64153,2019-11-15T10:25:23.322Z,11510,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,63951,anon3828707713,anon3554387720,"Hi everyone :slight_smile: I am based in Brussels and actively trying to avoid travelling at the moment. Am notoriously impatient, terrible at admin and following instructions or manuals. What I am good at is seeing bridges between seemingly unrelated issues, domains or conversations and connecting them a mutually beneficial path forward. Adept at navigating chaos and changing course as soon as it looks like an approach isn't working. Good at figuring out anon2696444391 to motivate people to get things done in a structured way. Am good at taking leadership when things are not going well - crisis management? Not a good listener unless interested in the person or topic. People who can be open ended in the choices that they make and are able to trust the world to bring them good things never cease to amaze me. Also, people who have a ""don't stop till you get it done"" instinct. Who are lateral thinkers + creative in finding ways to realise something that is in their mind. Don't mesh well with people who are sloppy with anon2696444391 they live/eat/work or have work ethics that do not align with my own. My topics: Pretty much anything if the topic is interesting. Increasingly Food and agriculture. Increasingly, physical and mental health. Plus anon2696444391 to improve resilience in the face of impending climate catastrophies." 10,64295,2019-11-15T20:44:57.984Z,11510,2,15,14,1,0,0,78.0,63951,anon1017729342,anon3554387720,"Amateur futurist with a particular interest in Post-Industrial culture looking to cultivate a career in the subject. Live in an adobe cottage in the high-desert of New Mexico. Current personal projects/studies include the ongoing collation of a catalog of modular building systems, 'furnitecture' and other alternative architecture, the development of a documentary series sanon2696444391casing open source lifestyle, development of an amateur space telerobotics movement through the creation of Internet-based 'telebases' as a community hobby activity, and the study of visual novel software as a platform for futurist media." 11,65181,2019-11-22T16:02:00.640Z,11510,0,12,11,2,0,0,42.4,63951,anon1739435405,anon3554387720,"Realise I think I'm due an intro here. Unfortunately I can't participate Saturday, but will drop by for some prep anon2863106368ight and then potentially Sunday. I'm also working with @anon3293944081 so have been kept up to date by her on the hackathon. I'm an entrepreneur / software developer for ~20 years. Experience launching multiple startups and building software for startup clients. I'm especially interested in strongly decentralised communication and the potential for this to transform society. Together with @anon3293944081 we're working on building both the human rituals and institutions that support impactful use cases, particularly in the European burner space." 12,65583,2019-11-25T08:00:59.012Z,11510,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,64295,anon1753543892,anon1017729342,"@anon1017729342, as an amateur futurist, you should have a look at our thread about scifi economics and, maybe talk to some of the people who went to that event :): https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-science-fiction-economics-lab-brussels-november-11th" 13,65931,2019-11-26T20:12:36.760Z,11510,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,65583,anon1017729342,anon1753543892,Thank you. A couple of contacts of mine were planning to attend that event (anon2071999133te Monson and Michael Bauwens) so I've been waiting to hear what their impressions were. I've been following the forums for that topic here but hadn't yet caught a thread I thought I could contribute to. 14,65948,2019-11-26T21:58:43.374Z,11510,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,64295,anon3203746736,anon1017729342,Welcome Eric - I spent a lot of time in New Mexico last summer. They don't call it the Land of Enchantment for nothing! 15,66248,2019-11-28T18:06:36.810Z,11510,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,63951,anon1017729342,anon3554387720,"I moved here over ten years ago from New Jersey, seeking low-toxic housing and lower pollution for health reasons. Lovely countryside, but a bit isolating and, of course, slower-paced." 1,63907,2019-11-12T16:42:13.865Z,11505,1,10,9,10,0,0,102.0,63907,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"Hi dear Edgeryders community! Would love to join forces to organize and welcome you all here: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/launch-of-the-european-holochain-hub-tickets-78965141865 Warm regards, Liliana." 2,64123,2019-11-15T07:27:21.561Z,11505,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,63907,anon3828707713,anon2860100070,ping @anon1753543892 and @anon3203746736 3,64187,2019-11-15T11:41:18.346Z,11505,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,64123,anon2860100070,anon3828707713,"Hi @anon3828707713 @anon1753543892 @anon3203746736 Interested on attending? supporting someanon2696444391? spreading the event?" 4,64190,2019-11-15T11:43:16.064Z,11505,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,64187,anon3828707713,anon2860100070,I think so Right now we are focused on preparing for the events next week. Can we discuss this at the end of next week? 5,64209,2019-11-15T12:21:14.937Z,11505,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,64190,anon2860100070,anon3828707713,"Perfect @anon3828707713, let's talk about it next week. Would Friday (22nd) morning fit your agenda?" 6,64212,2019-11-15T12:27:47.492Z,11505,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,64209,anon3828707713,anon2860100070,yes. 7,64215,2019-11-15T12:40:26.127Z,11505,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,63907,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,9am? I will send you a calendar invite via my email anon2860100070@anon 8,64272,2019-11-15T16:03:53.167Z,11505,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,63907,anon3203746736,anon2860100070,I have 2 good friends who are on the [Holochain staff](https://holo.host/team/): Jarod Holtz (Director of Growth and Delivery) and Celestial Hanley (X Designer). Do you know them? 9,64393,2019-11-17T11:32:45.562Z,11505,1,7,6,1,1,0,11.4,64272,anon2860100070,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:8, topic:11505""] Do you know them? [/quote] Hi John, no, I don't know them. It would be nice to connect with them. Are you planning to attend this meetup? Warm regards, Liliana." 10,64403,2019-11-17T15:59:05.252Z,11505,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,64393,anon3203746736,anon2860100070,"Would love to, but I'm in California!" 11,65099,2019-11-22T09:28:24.391Z,11505,1,5,4,1,1,0,11.0,64212,anon2860100070,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:6, topic:11505, full:true""] yes. [/quote] Hi Nadia, it is Friday :) When do you have time for a call today? Cheers! Liliana." 12,65104,2019-11-22T09:39:43.938Z,11505,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,65099,anon3828707713,anon2860100070,ciao - in an hour? pm ing you my number 13,65154,2019-11-22T13:34:56.579Z,11505,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,63907,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"Come and hear about Collaboration, Collective Intelligence and Next Generation Internet technologies that facilitate this to happen! ***Schedule and Content:*** 09:00 am - Registration, coffee and networking 09:30 am - Welcome words, data and collective intelligence. By [Liliana Carrillo](https://twitter.com/lilicarrillof) 09:45 am - Keynote: Decentralized cooperation at Scale. By [Michel Bauwens](https://twitter.com/mbauwens) 10:15 am - E-Women, safer access to e-democracy. By [Anna Melenchuk](https://twitter.com/anna_melenchuk) 10:30 am - Global border-less democracy, Open Source. By [Paula Berman](https://twitter.com/_paulaberman) 10:45 am - Panel: Intelectual Property for Collaboration. How to protect your ideas and inventions from theft? With [Alain Souloumiac](https://www.linkedin.com/in/alain-souloumiac-75442610/), [Dick Van Gelder](https://www.linkedin.com/in/dickvangelder/), [Elena Bachert](https://starks.be/en/starks-team/elena-bachert/), [Reinhard Dhondt](https://starks.be/en/starks-team/reinhard-dhondt/) Moderator: [Philippe Van Impe](https://twitter.com/pvanimpe) 11:45 am - Coffee/tea break - Networking 12:15 am - Holochain Meetup: Introduction and Q&A. By [Raphi See](https://twitter.com/RaphiSee). 12:45 am - Closing words & networking 13:00 pm - Doors close." 14,65916,2019-11-26T18:05:06.929Z,11505,1,6,5,1,1,0,11.2,63907,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:1, topic:11505""] to join forces [/quote] @anon1753543892 I posted the event on the platform 2 weeks ago. Let's try to join forces to make it even better. It would be lovely to get some volunteers to film the talks and take photos, so materials can be reused. Do you anyone in Belgium who could support? Also it would be nice to have the conversation on one single place :slight_smile: As the conversation is also part of the Anticipate event: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anticipate-exploring-collective-intelligence-design/11021/45?u=anon2860100070 Could you send me a link to the form that has to be filled in for funds? Warm regards, Liliana." 15,66024,2019-11-27T14:59:52.215Z,11505,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,65916,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,done in the dm with anon3828707713 16,66072,2019-11-27T18:46:50.815Z,11505,1,5,4,1,0,0,11.0,66024,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,Thanks a lot! 17,66244,2019-11-28T17:40:18.903Z,11505,0,5,4,2,0,0,11.0,66072,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,Official event here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/cooperation-at-scale-next-generation-collective-intelligence-and-internet/11989/2 1,60653,2019-10-04T11:29:47.149Z,11021,0,24,23,117,0,0,619.8,60653,anon3747875924,anon3747875924,"![Edgeryders-Fest-Twitter-1100x628-anon3747875924-01|690x393](upload://jkjtSYJY1mSOUh3C3xkJanI9owG.png) ## Anticipate ! Exploring Collective Intelligence Design [date=2019-11-19 timezone=""Europe/Brussels""] → [date=2019-11-29 timezone=""Europe/Brussels""] * **Organiser:** @anon3747875924 * **Location:** Saarbruecken, multiple venues * **Event:** A welcoming, low-threshold, non-nerd workshop series around specific areas of collective intelligence design - data sovereignty, community architectures, and cooperative data governance - to bring people concerned about tech into site-specific co-creation processes to address concrete needs for collaborative solutions. * **Languages:** We have multilingual teams and can make a diverse group of people feel at home, but given the local focus of these workshops, most participants will speak German. Co-hosted by [xm:lab](https://www.xmlab.org/research) - Experimental Media Lab and [K8](http://www.k8.design) of the Academy of Fine Arts Saar. The workshop series is part of an ongoing [exploration](http://www.anticipate.network) of collective intelligence design as a way of giving speculation authority to act in the present. Taking placing during the academic year, the workshops are also being integrated into seminars dedicated to ""[Cultures of Open](https://www.hbksaar.de/vorlesungen/details/medientheorie-cultures-of-open)"" and ""[The Art of Decision](https://www.hbksaar.de/vorlesungen/details/medientheorie-die-kunst-der-entscheidung)"". **Workshop I Data Sovereignty** [date=2019-11-19 timezone=""Europe/Brbussels""] → [date=2019-11-19 timezone=""Europe/Brussels""] * **Times:** 10.00 - 15:30 * **Location:** East Side Fab - Halle 11, Eschbergerweg 40, 66121 Saarbrücken **Theme**: Basic introduction to the ways in which our daily activities generate data flows and the ways in which these may be harnessed to support auanon2863106368omy and self-determination. We will look specifically at health- and workplace-related data, as this data is arguably the most personal, sensitive, and vulnerable to misuse. At the same time, it is precisely because of this that it offers a way to engage with data sovereignty concerns. **Context**: Developing a holistic approach to data literacy begins with awareness of the many overlapping data-generating contexts we pass through as we live and labor. As far as the bigger picture is concerned, this is it a key step toward co-designing that which affects anon2696444391 we act - collective intelligence design enables deep engagement with the socio-technological infrastructures structuring and sustaining our agency. Workshop in cooperation with [Open Saar e.V.](https://opensaar.de/) **Workshop II Data Governance and Decentralized Technologies** [date=2019-11-28 timezone=""Europe/Brussels""] → [date=2019-11-28 timezone=""Europe/Brussels""] * **Times:** 14:00 - 18:00 * **Location:** K8, Ufergasse 2, 66111 Saarbrücken **Theme**: New ideas related to data governance have come from communities engaging with blockchain technologies. We will take a look at some of these ideas and bring them together with approaches from the [cooperative](https://www.saluscoop.org/) universe. Workshop II offers in-depth follow-up to Workshop I. **Context**: Decentralized technologies have become key areas of collective intelligence design [experimentation](http://daostack.io). While some of these efforts have been criticized for reproducing the not-so-open geek cultures of tech research (""blokechain""), these technologies are too important to leave them to the usual techno-libertarian suspects. So we need to find ways to bring more people into a key systems design process. **Workshop III Community Architectures** [date=2019-11-29 timezone=""Europe/Brussels""] → [date=2019-11-29 timezone=""Europe/Brussels""] * **Times:** 10:00 - 16:00 * **Location:** xm:lab, Keplerstr. 3-5, 66117 Saarbrücken / Blida, Metz **Theme**: How do we bring sustainable architecture / upcycling / renewable energy communities into the design process of a workspace for a new commons-oriented cooperative? We will look at two existing spaces and co-develop a vision for a new space here in Saarbrücken. Following a (remote) walk-through of COACTlab in Barcelona we will visit [Bliiida](https://www.bliiida.fr/) in Metz, France, just across the border. **Context**: Members of the Academy of Fine Arts Saar have initiated the foundation of a cooperative (s:coop) to actively contribute to a new economy. Locally, this has involved exchanges with various actors from freelancing, innovation, and start-up communities. Now the time has come to develop and design a physical space that can operate as a community architecture. And one way to get started is to look what others have already done. ## Who will participate? * Members of Open Saar e.V. * Soenke Zehle @anon3747875924 * Julia Hartnik, Co-CEO, K8 * Hannes Käfer, Director, Digital Production Center, HBKsaar * William Lloyd-George @anon2670920295 * Liliana Carillo @anon2860100070, Digityser, Brussels * Andrea Barbiero, [Salus Coop](https://www.saluscoop.org/), Barcelona * [Jens Dittrich](https://bigdata.uni-saarland.de/people/dittrich.php), Big Data Analytics Group @anon * Uto Scheidt, DIDP, Saarland University **To be confirmed** * Members of Technoport, Luxembourg * Members of CNA, Luxembourg * Members of s:coop, Saarbrücken * You!
# Frequently asked questions ### How do I get an invitation/ticket to this workshop? **Complete the registration form: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/** ### How is this event being organised? This event, and the festival it is part of, is coordinated on the anon1577251828 platform (where you are now) and co-curated through a series of community video calls. We have allocated a collaboratively managed budget for the festival and operate on a solidarity basis. Participants who need some financial support to organise or be able to participate in the festival are eligible provided they contribute towards making it a meaningful and generative experience for all - in the run up to, during and/or after the event. If you would like to join us but are unsure as to anon2696444391 to contribute, don’t worry. Create an [anon1577251828 account](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login), then [tell us a bit about yourself here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you) and we will guide you along from there. ### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png) ### Does getting involved mean I endorse the funders views or actions? No. What you are doing is contributing to an open consultation on the topic of anon2696444391 to build a next generation of internet infrastructure, technologies, business models etc that promotes the wellbeing of humans and the natural environment. The consultation methodology is designed in such a way as to allow for diversity of views, premises, disciplines, themes and contexts. We employ open notebook science principles and the results will be presented in the form of a research report accessible to everyone after the event. You can follow the process, review the methodology and open source tech we are using and engage directly with the research and coordination team here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/workspace ### What is the code of conduct? It is important to us that everyone in the room feels welcomed and safe; if you have any particular concerns or needs just send me a PM here on the platform or write to [anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu](mailto:anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu) . The Edgeryders online platform technology and activities are intended for people to cooperate within and across projects trying to build a better world. The word “better” has here a fairly broad range of meaning. These [Community Guidelines](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/netiquette/45) are here to help you understand what it means to be a member of Edgeryders. Don’t forget that your use of Edgeryders is subject to these Community Guidelines and our [Terms of Service](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/id/44). ### What happens with my data? You can read about our [Terms of Use and Privacy Policy here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/terms-of-use-and-privacy-policy/44). Also: * [Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016 on the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data, and repealing Directive 95/46/EC (General Data Protection Regulation) (Text with EEA relevance)](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.119.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:119:TOC) * [Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0046) * [Handbook on European Data Protection directive](http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Handbook_data_protection_ENG.pdf) * [European Commission website - Protection of personal data](http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/)" 2,60656,2019-10-04T11:43:09.458Z,11021,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,60653,anon3828707713,anon3747875924,Looks really interesting: Do you have a nice image we can use to promote it like a miniflyer or nice photo/illustration we can use with cc license/permission? 4,60723,2019-10-05T11:40:17.134Z,11021,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,60656,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,flyer templates for everyone coming soon :) 5,61893,2019-10-22T07:08:38.440Z,11021,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,60653,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,here is the link to the folder with the flyers: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uNIE4Ha7NCpNVC8SI3hEOnf0NeqkNjoP?usp=sharing 6,61894,2019-10-22T07:09:05.925Z,11021,1,12,11,1,0,0,42.4,60653,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,![Edgeryders-Fest-FB-1200x628-anon3747875924-01|690x361](upload://wEVCQAKgexmK8ROwXxva66BbSyf.png) 7,61907,2019-10-22T08:38:42.859Z,11021,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,61894,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,should i replace the header image with this? 8,61932,2019-10-22T09:33:23.000Z,11021,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,61907,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"Asked the two colleagues in the image if they are ok with that, will let u know. Will also check locally which other logos need to go into the flyer, should I add that or upload the logos to the folder? Also: talked to William, he wants to come, but also needs info on finances (can u cover his travel / accommodation cost directly) etc." 9,61940,2019-10-22T10:18:28.912Z,11021,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,61932,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"@anon3747875924 regarding the logos, I you can add those yourself that would be great, otherwise send them to me, via the folder is fine. regarding William: Great! To what would his travels and commendation amount? Are they already in the budget or not?" 10,62379,2019-10-28T13:12:57.189Z,11021,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,61940,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892 Hi Maria, @anon2670920295 and I agreed that it makes more sense to bring him over for a longer event / residency later, in the context of the now finalized program for the 3 workshops we'll combine a remote walk-through of COACT Lab's spaces and projects with another site visit here in the greater region (Metz is a French city about 30mins away by train). I uploaded logos f K8, HBKsaar and xm:lab into the flyer folder. Tomorrow I (like every week on Tue) have another obligation at 18:00 but am happy to talk on Wed / Thu if that helps, I for one would be grateful for that since the Tuesday slot just doesn't work for me..." 11,62392,2019-10-28T14:42:32.169Z,11021,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,62379,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"Ok, great. How about Wednesday 11:00 or 15:00?" 12,62396,2019-10-28T15:13:28.789Z,11021,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,62392,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"Wed 15 is perfect, many thx !" 13,62489,2019-10-29T16:16:41.759Z,11021,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,62396,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"great, shedeuled the meeting for tomorrow 15:00 https://zoom.us/j/3063210325" 14,62500,2019-10-29T16:52:16.387Z,11021,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,60653,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"Also: Added the logos you gave me @anon3747875924 to the flyers: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uNIE4Ha7NCpNVC8SI3hEOnf0NeqkNjoP I changed the header of the event to it as well. Can we set up a facebook event for it? " 15,62544,2019-10-30T14:07:30.000Z,11021,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,62489,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"ready now, sorry for the delay" 16,62638,2019-10-31T11:45:33.419Z,11021,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,60653,anon2860100070,anon3747875924,"I would love to be part of this, and contribute with a my location in Brussels (DigitYser) and also as speaker and with workshops. I have given several talks on this. https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrilloliliana/" 17,62660,2019-10-31T14:55:13.750Z,11021,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,62638,anon3747875924,anon2860100070,"@anon2860100070 fantastic, let's talk about that soon...next Monday 11/4 work for you?" 18,62662,2019-10-31T15:04:23.542Z,11021,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,60653,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"https://www.facebook.com/events/2087153444718394/ the facebook event is up. Who could be a content responsible fb cohost?" 19,63300,2019-11-07T12:40:18.633Z,11021,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,62662,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"Hi @anon1753543892 did you get me emails about the fb cohost and corrections of the first workshop location (adjusted here already, but not yet on your fb post)? What else do you need? Best, Soenke" 20,63314,2019-11-07T13:37:05.190Z,11021,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,63300,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"Hello Sönke, I had Nadia make me a co-host yesterday somi can directly take care of that. Will do it anon2863106368ight" 21,63611,2019-11-09T11:52:26.496Z,11021,1,12,11,4,0,0,27.4,63314,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,@anon1753543892 thx much. Does the festival site display current profile info? Updazed but festival site does not seem changed 22,63773,2019-11-11T17:23:55.866Z,11021,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,63611,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"@anon3747875924 the info on the minisite is taken from the posts here, so if the posts are updated here, it should change there in about 5 min time" 23,63912,2019-11-12T16:49:35.871Z,11021,0,10,9,2,1,0,27.0,62660,anon2860100070,anon3747875924,"[quote=""anon3747875924, post:17, topic:11021""] Monday 11/4 [/quote] Hi @anon3747875924, I was travelling. Could we talk this week? Thanks a lot for your answer! Warm regards, Liliana." 24,64035,2019-11-13T22:03:32.731Z,11021,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,60653,anon3747875924,anon3747875924,"@anon2860100070 of course ! Thu or Fr morning, else email me with suggestions, looking fwd !" 25,64040,2019-11-14T07:56:14.213Z,11021,1,9,8,1,1,0,11.8,64035,anon2860100070,anon3747875924,"[quote=""anon3747875924, post:24, topic:11021""] Thu or Fr morning [/quote] Great! Thursday or Friday morning are fine for me. Do you have time today at 10am? Zoom?" 26,64101,2019-11-14T21:51:39.398Z,11021,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,64040,anon3747875924,anon2860100070,"@anon2860100070 sorry today was pretty chaotic. Tom 10:00 is fine, feel free to send zoom link or I will tomorrow" 27,64189,2019-11-15T11:42:59.786Z,11021,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,64101,anon2860100070,anon3747875924,"Hi @anon3747875924, I just see your message, sorry. Could we coordinate our call via email? anon2860100070@anon" 28,64723,2019-11-19T17:04:11.965Z,11021,2,9,8,1,0,0,31.8,60653,anon3023865999,anon3747875924,@anon3747875924 Are we having the zoom meetup we spoke about at this moment or has it been post- or even preponed ;) ? 29,64731,2019-11-19T17:24:07.751Z,11021,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,64723,anon3747875924,anon3023865999,@anon 30,64732,2019-11-19T17:25:11.912Z,11021,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,64731,anon3023865999,anon3747875924,uhkay - well good journey then! 31,64734,2019-11-19T17:26:56.250Z,11021,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,64732,anon3747875924,anon3023865999,@anon3023865999 I think call is here https://zoom.us/j/489971765 32,64925,2019-11-20T22:08:06.783Z,11021,2,8,7,1,0,0,16.6,64723,anon1753543892,anon3023865999,the calls are every Tuesday 18:00. will include you in the reminders in future! :) 33,65034,2019-11-21T17:30:29.542Z,11021,1,8,7,1,1,0,26.6,64925,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:32, topic:11021""] will include you in the reminders [/quote] Hi Maria, could you also include me in the reminders, please?" 34,65039,2019-11-21T17:55:40.874Z,11021,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,65034,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,Ok will do so :). Next call is on Tuesday 18:00 35,65068,2019-11-21T22:46:05.666Z,11021,1,7,6,2,0,0,16.4,63773,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,re auto-updates don't think that is true for profile info though 36,65077,2019-11-22T07:16:58.940Z,11021,2,5,4,1,0,0,16.0,64925,anon3023865999,anon1753543892,@anon1753543892 @anon3747875924 Thanks! Is it the same Zoom - space (https://zoom.us/j/489971765) everytime or could I get the link with your reminder? 37,65115,2019-11-22T10:13:59.379Z,11021,0,4,3,1,1,0,5.8,65077,anon2860100070,anon3023865999,"[quote=""anon3023865999, post:36, topic:11021""] could I get the link with your reminder [/quote] Is there a google calendar for this? I don't want to miss it :slight_smile:" 38,65125,2019-11-22T11:14:16.807Z,11021,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,65077,anon1753543892,anon3023865999,Yes it is the same link. Will add the Google calender link in a bit 39,65127,2019-11-22T11:15:00.109Z,11021,0,3,2,1,0,0,5.6,65068,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,@anon3747875924 I am not sure what you are referring to? What profile? 40,65180,2019-11-22T16:00:03.145Z,11021,2,6,5,3,0,0,41.2,60653,anon2860100070,anon3747875924,"Hi all, I have introduced myself shortly here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-to-balance-the-needs-of-the-individual-and-the-collective-collective-intelligence-and-more/11559 And also talked to Soenke last week, and we happily got a good connection. I contribute to the area of collective intelligence in several ways as researcher and entrepreneur, and I take a mixed approach of Online and Offline methods and technologies and its combination. For example: - As Entrepreneur (and someanon2696444391 artist), at the yearly Build Peace Conference I organize workshops and interactive exhibitions on Co-creation. You can see 2 photos of the exhibition here: https://marshmallowsg.wixsite.com/buildpeace (this is a draft website that needs to still be finished) You see there my daughter and some screens and projections. We do this together. She is a Minecraft expert and she supports me to help others with the computers in case it is too much for me when there is too much people. We do exercises in which we use co-creation of the ideal home place for a person on paper, lego, and also on Minecraft. We learn to co-draw, co-decide, co-design, co-budget. - As researcher: I have for example co-written 4 projects to the Nesta call on Collective Intelligence. I hope that at least one of them gets some budget. One of the project ideas is about collective decision making tools, and a study of polarization/collaboration. Another one is related to intergenerational collective decision making. Another one is about Decentralized/Distributed Governance, and another one about Swarm Human Intelligence. Probably one of this projects ideas or the combination of all of them could be submitted to a H2020 call on democracy, collective decision making. We will be looking into this with @anon3747875924 - As a speaker, I work mostly on awareness, sanon2696444391ing to people that we can transform the way we decide and do it collaboratively, also transform our organizations and in general society, for more participation, and horizontal organizations. Talks vary from TEDx, to other international conferences on Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Peace Movements. I can give a list of these but will only post the TEDx for now: https://youtu.be/fqR8OQ1u63Q I hope to collaborate with more people over here <3 Initially I feel that the collaboration will start with Soenke, probably with a follow up event in Brussels. Let's see anon2696444391 this unfolds... :slight_smile: Warm regards, Liliana." 41,65582,2019-11-25T07:57:26.922Z,11021,1,5,4,1,0,0,11.0,65180,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"Thank you very much for this introduction @anon2860100070! This sounds amazing! You mentioned that you are shortly hosting an event, could you tell us more about that?" 42,65600,2019-11-25T09:08:40.300Z,11021,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,65180,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"@anon3828707713 and @anon294806887, Lylycarillo would also be interested in collaboration in Brussels." 43,65713,2019-11-25T15:16:00.282Z,11021,1,6,5,1,1,0,26.2,60653,anon2860100070,anon3747875924,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:41, topic:11021""] shortly hosting an event [/quote] Hi @anon1753543892 , Yes, I am hosting the 'Cooperate at Scale' event, and it would be lovely to host it as part of the Anticipate project and also part of the Next Generation Internet activities. @anon3747875924 mentioned that some financial support could be given, and I will be happy to receive your support on anon2696444391 to adapt the content to receive support (adding Edgeryders as co-organizer? organizer?, mentioning the EU code for the projects?, adding an Edgeryders speaker?, adding an Anticipate speaker?). The link to the event is here: https://tiny.cc/cooperate The current program is the following: *Come and hear about Collaboration, Collective Intelligence and Next Generation Internet technologies that facilitate this to happen!* ***Schedule and Content:*** 09:00 am - Registration, coffee and networking 09:30 am - Welcome words, data and collective intelligence. By [Liliana Carrillo](https://twitter.com/lilicarrillof) 09:45 am - Keynote: Decentralized cooperation at Scale. By [Michel Bauwens](https://twitter.com/mbauwens) 10:15 am - E-Women, safer access to e-democracy. By [Anna Melenchuk](https://twitter.com/anna_melenchuk) 10:30 am - Global border-less democracy, Open Source. By [Paula Berman](https://twitter.com/_paulaberman) 10:45 am - Panel: Intelectual Property for Collaboration. How to protect your ideas and inventions from theft? With [Alain Souloumiac](https://www.linkedin.com/in/alain-souloumiac-75442610/), [Dick Van Gelder](https://www.linkedin.com/in/dickvangelder/), [Elena Bachert](https://starks.be/en/starks-team/elena-bachert/), [Reinhard Dhondt](https://starks.be/en/starks-team/reinhard-dhondt/) Moderator: [Philippe Van Impe](https://twitter.com/pvanimpe) 11:45 am - Coffee/tea break - Networking 12:15 am - Holochain Meetup: Introduction and Q&A. By [Raphi See](https://twitter.com/RaphiSee). 12:45 am - Closing words & networking 13:00 pm - Doors close." 44,65716,2019-11-25T15:22:18.775Z,11021,0,6,5,1,1,0,21.2,65600,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:42, topic:11021""] @anon3828707713 and @anon294806887 [/quote] Thanks @anon1753543892 for moving this forward! @anon3828707713, @anon294806887, I have had a great talk with @anon3747875924, and we would like to have some follow up meetup in Brussels. I am in Amsterdam at the moment as I am one of the Speakers at the European Women in Tech conference, and for this reason I will not be able to attend the first Anticipate event in Germany. How do you recommend us to move forward? I would like to host it as DigitYser. And one idea can be to work with Minecraft as I do it with my daughter, for co-creation of the ideal community, on paper, with lego and digitally." 45,65914,2019-11-26T17:53:54.721Z,11021,1,5,4,1,1,0,26.0,65713,anon2860100070,anon2860100070,"[quote=""anon2860100070, post:43, topic:11021""] ‘Cooperate at Scale’ event [/quote] Hi @anon1753543892, To move this event forward, and reuse materials, I would like some volunteers to take photos and films the talks. Could you help me to find volunteers for this an other things? Also, to try to make it for EU funds around the festival, please send me the form that needs to be filled in, and we do our best till the end, and hope for the best :slight_smile: as said in the call. Thanks in advance! Warm regards, Liliana." 46,66119,2019-11-28T09:56:51.011Z,11021,1,5,4,1,0,0,11.0,65914,anon1753543892,anon2860100070,"form is send. @anon294806887, do you no people in Brussels who would be interested going there and taking some pictures?" 47,66120,2019-11-28T09:58:03.965Z,11021,1,5,4,1,0,0,11.0,66119,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"@anon2860100070, can you make a new topic post such as this one from anon3747875924 in the top, including the FAQ there and I will tagg it accordingly to push it to the website and festival programm" 48,66242,2019-11-28T17:39:30.849Z,11021,0,5,4,3,0,0,31.0,66120,anon2860100070,anon1753543892,"@anon3747875924 The event has been published here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/cooperation-at-scale-next-generation-collective-intelligence-and-internet/11989/2 Thanks @anon3747875924 @anon1753543892 @anon3828707713 for your support! I will start to sent the attendees to the event page." 1,66177,2019-11-28T12:20:42.863Z,11981,0,8,7,0,0,0,1.6,66177,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"# Summary Notes ## Fishbowl 1: Featuring Alberto Cottica, Marco Manca, Seda Gurses (with input from Rob) facilitated by Justin Nogarede ### Ad Verbatum Notes from Ilaria and Alberto The EU’s new Commission is looking to approve a new AI directive, and of course democratic participation is important to ensure a good law. What do you feel necessary from EU to participate? Alberto: I’m a bit skeptical that legislation is the right instrument to do this kind of things. It’s a blunt instrument, because as of now there is no good understanding of the process from the ethical values (fairly easy to encode in a directive) to the actual technical choices of the scientists and engineers building AI systems. Ex. we like the New Zealand group developing Scuttlebutt: when users asked for cross-device accounts, the core developer replied “I’m not doing that, because we want to serve underprivileged people, and these people do not have multiple devices”. What he was doing was justifying his technical choices in terms of his values. As a socio-technical culture, we are not good at that. Legislation is not an efficient tool? Not yet. Marco: Human centered internet is not defined, that’s why you can’t find a solution. “Human” is literally anyone. Al: It’s more about the process and accountability If you look at insurance tech, they’re good at … Seda: Why are we pushing for AI? The end of Moore’s law. The money we seek in are more unlike to come back. Industry took a risk at specialised chips: AI and blockchain-specific. So, now they need to create a demand for these chips. We should be aware of the vendor-driven nature of this stuff, and think about anon2696444391 to regulate these companies. Part: there are a lot of people involved in AI now, we’re not in the moment of choice, ‘cause a lot of people are already working on it. Could you give us a definition of what is human centered AI? What kind of tech could give a real improvement in the social field? Part: All the company are now working in AI. There’s who believe it and go for it no matter what, and there are people who are more aware of dark sides and brings other issues. In the medical field AI is useful to diagnose common diseases. When you get down to it, AI is just statistical models. Moderator: could you please better define what “investment in AI” is? What should the EU do practically? Seda: The business model of Big Tech now is based on keeping the code, providing cloud services and collecting data to profile and ultimately influence users. They cross-subsidize their cloud services with their marketing revenue streams. If you want to fight that, you should have public cloud infrastructure, which is a trillion-EUR affair. That’s your investment in human-centric AI infrastructure. Companies like Google optimise with AI the profilazione of their customers. The difference is if it’s a data centered AI or not. … ? Where do we bring the democratic process into new models? Part: informed consent is tricky for a company to manage. Part: In the health care sector, public data have been simply entrusted to large companies: the NHS in the UK chose Deep Mind, the SSN in Italy chose IBM Watson. PArt: People republic of Walmart, anon2696444391 data gov. enables them to use …? The structure is from biology, human brain: do we actually need AI? I think so. Human centric should be human empowering, not exploiting. Big tech should be redefined as AI companies, and no longer Internet companies, and regulated accordingly. Also, they claim to be “human centric”, because they build sophisticated models of human behavior; but to me they are not, because they do not empower humans. I agree with the point made before about accountability. The GDPR also enshrines it. Part: Ecological impact of AI: simply training AI models has huge impact in terms of CO2, it might not be a win-win situation, but a tradeoff. You solve some problems, but at the cost of making climate worse. “Govenment is accountable by default” (mh). But people is generally unwawre of using AI. Alberto: climate + competition policy = nobody is allowed to grow to much. What is “empowering”? I suspect that AI (ML applied on big data) is inherently NOT human-centric, because its models (for example a recommendation algo) encode each human into a database, and then models you in terms of who you are similar to: for example, a woman between 35 and 45 who speaks Dutch and watches stand-up comedy on Netflix. Everything not standardizable, everything that makes you *you*, gets pushed to the error term of the model. That is hardly human-centric, because it leads to optimizing systems in terms of abstract ""typical humans"" or ""target groups"" or whatever. Marco: I agree with the antitrust principle. What we consider AI is machine learning, this is the root of our problems, it’s just classical statistics. You create the illusion that value production is shifted to the generation…. ex. if the doctor establish a relation with the patient, the AI has not to invade the relation, but now the doctor has to take notes and patient see less value in it (you look somewhere else and you are centralised…). Airport before and after Ryanair: before architecture were associated to functions and your experience of travels, room for different functions. Now with the low cost you consider that the experience is less valuable, now is a shopping mall and at the gate it’s temporarily informations about space. Alberto: Are you saying that, in order to have standardization (and therefore data analysis), we have to “flatten” patients on the dimensions that are comparable across different patients? Marco: medicine is not diagnosis, but prognosis-based. In medicine, nothing has value if I cannot improve your life. A patient can and should negotiate with the doctor where to go from here; he or she even has a right to die. This is a very poor fit for anon2696444391 ML-on-big-data works. Moderator: Because we expect thousand of data, we loose the human specific? Alberto: Part: New tech are not working on average, but on very personalized experience, so it’s not statistics. Marco: I just read a review of 37,000 studies of AI in medicine. Of these, only about 100 had enough information on training datasets to do a meta-analysis on. Of these, 24 claimed prospective design (the algorithm had been trained without knowing the real data); of these zero had actually done prospective design. … I don’t know any real medical problem that prospective AI model can solve. Seda: We optimize relationships. This is problematic. For example, we have marketing companies working with civil liberties organizations, that tell their clients: we can tell you which of your donors care about which issues, so you can optimize for issues where you get more money. Optimisation has been the logic as far, but it can go wrong anyway. Traffic is a perfect example. If you look at optimization system, it comes at a cost and if you don’t do internalise the cost it causes bigger damages. Apparently innocent choices as what to optimize for turn out to have huge consequences. When you design traffic, do you optimize for driver safety? Or for pedestrian safety? Of minimize time spent on the road? SEDA on feedbacks: I know GDPR, it’s regulated anyway. There are serious problems on anon2696444391 GDPR focuses on personal data on individuals. We talk about automated decisions, but there is a set of criteria … the optimization is not about the single person, but as pbe part of a certain group which operates certain choices in general. So, you expect to empower people, but actually you don’t. Paul Olivier Dehaye is trying to pool data from different workers to see if people are being discriminated. This is called a “data trust”. There is also the DECODE project that is doing something they called “data commons”. We are now in a mess with the GDPR. Uber, for example, uses it to refuse to give drivers their data, saying this impacts the rights of the riders. This (says Seda) is the consequence of focusing on personal rights when the data are used to optimize over populations. DATA Trust + Part: I am in the MyData community. We really like the GDPR per se, but we take issue on anon2696444391 it is enforced. In the US there is a project called Data Transfer, that is setting the standards for personal data in a way that will entrench dominant positions. Pragmatically, the EU should set its own standards for this. Part (Rob): In Belgium there is a company called It’sMe, who does online identity. They are pushing their data onto Azure, making it GDPR and EIDAS compliant. That changed my thinking, because it sanon2696444391ed me as even these sterling silver pieces of European thinking ends up in the Silicon Valley cloud. We need to break the number-person relationship: when you get born, you receive a number from the state, and the game’s up. I dream of disposable identities, that we set up with the purpose of entering into a relationship, like for example receiving a service. A good analogy is one-time email addresses: you get an email address, you sign up to some online service with it, use it ONCE to receive the email to confirm you do control that email, and then it self destructs. Governance instead of government. Here’s my take: the kind of society you are looking at is anarcho-communist. The communist part is that infrastructure is fully centralized, like in the 30 glorieuse. Anything that runs onto the infrastructure is fully permissionless. That’s the anarchist part. And finally, the data stays with the people. Justin sees the Internet as an accelerator of neoliberalism, Rob as a still-young tech that is fundamentally liberating. Identity is a process, so a “broken” identity in different objects, is not a problem. Can we think of counterproductive regulation on the Internet? Stuff like the copyright directive? Justin: let me reframe that: anon2696444391 did we end up with all these things, that used to be a public good, end up being someone’s property? CAPITALISM values, and measures, commercial transactions, so there is a fundamental, systemic incentive to bring things into the commercial sphere. Rob: internet changes the ratio of power. We behave like we are in the pre-internet era, because internet is a new technology and it takes longer for us to change behaviours. Part: In the MyData community we see data being commodified, but we think this is a mistake. Data are relational: my birthdate is also the date when my mother got her first child. A mistake in regulation could be this; create a kind of freehold right on personal data (again the parallel with IPR holds). the error is to internpret GDPR as individual private data. What is data? It’s a relational thing? Structure defines content. It has been premeditated that Alberto: in Helsinki everybody agreed that you can’t sell your data. Rob thinks that a radical change is coming, want it or not, and that the ONLY thing that can secure a good outcome is very multi-faceted: innovative procurement, plus hardcoded GDPR, plus disposable identities, plus permissionless-friendly data standards for IoT. Part: In Europe people value privacy, My friends in Malaysia, they don’t think much of agreeing to foregoing privacy rights to get access to some online service. China also is much more top-down than Europe is. Part: coders and programmers are new élite who understand anon2696444391 these subjects affect society Kenya + AI? Justin: new laws will come out next year about AI in EU. What are the best things that we could do? What is the progressive outcome of this process? Part: teach data skills and data literacy, early in life? Part: could we maybe stand in the middle, where data can be both used as an economic resource or as a human right. Part: in NYC there is a situation with an algorithm that does something, but it is proprietary, and so no one exactly knows anon2696444391 it makes the decisions that it does. A good idea is to mandate auditability of algorithms. “Algorithm watch” is an NHO that does this. Part: is it possible to audit models? It is, though very expensive. So why does it not get done? Because the algos are private property. ## Fishbowl 2: Featuring Fabrizio Barca, Kate Sim, Hugi Asgeirsson, Liliana Carillo - facilitated by Nadia E.N ### Notes from Fabrizio Barca **Some ideas from good exchanges in a good evening – November 11, 2019** (Fabrizio Barca) In order to move ahead and to make the most of all ideas and human resources working these days on AI, we need both to understand where potential mobilization is taking place or it might take place, and to have a conceptual framework to move ahead. * Since AI can produce either bad effects (harm) or good effects … the appropriate conceptual framework should offer a definition of bad/good so as to * assess current uses of AI, * mobilize people both “against” bad uses and “for” good uses” * design, experiment and revise alternative “good” uses * Sen’s concept of Substantial Freedom (A Theory of Justice) is a choice: the capability approach, where we consider “good” all moves/actions that improve the capacity/capability of every person to do what considers valuable (not futile capacities, but central to one’s life: dignity, learning, health, freedom to move, human relations, …) * This approach does not incapsulate what is “bad” or “harmful” in a rigid box, but it calls for a participatory/societal assessment of anon2696444391 the general principle should be implemented, an assessment that can be continuously updated through public debate * Not so new: it was used by lawyers in the corporate assessment of “just”/”unjust” fiduciary duties and business judgement rule in the US * Which reminds us that the participatory process/platforms can be of different kinds: * In the judiciary * In working councils * In town councils a la Barcelona * Mixing dialogical/analogical debate Which are the potential ACTORS of mobilization? * **Organised Labour** : automation, bad jobs, gig economy, low wages * Women: AI machism * Kids: sexual abuses, porno * Citizens: mobility * Citizens: health … a dimension of life where people are becoming awareof bad uses (insurance, use of DNA) Therefore, one should move forward according to the following sequence: * Identify, country by country or even places by places, where people’s concern on bad uses (or on forgone good uses) is high and there it is being organised: i.e. where there is a potential demand for “competence support”, both at conceptual and technological level * Concentrate on these contexts and provide them with the conceptual framework * Turn the “pars destruens” into a “pars costruens” * Building at EU level a network that allows horizontal comparison for the same issues both of threats, actions and results * Ensuring at EU level the availability of a competence centre that deals (not necessarily solve, but ai least identify and tackles) with the meta-obstacles preventing the implementation or curtailing the survival of“good” uses. Complementary activities that emerged from debate: * Following the “substantial freedom” framework a **code of behaviour** should be established and monitored, by which all categories playing a role in developing algorithms - scientists developing Algorithms, politicians supporting/calling for their use, public and private administrators using them - should ask themselves: **What is the effect on the capabilities of people effected by the algorithms?** * Analogic/dialogic …. Online/Offline **Experimenting platforms** combining the two is a priority. In particular, it should be a practice for public administrations and politicians to create dialogic platforms where the above code of behaviour is checked. * Education/sensibilization on the implementation of the above conceptual framework in order to identify good/bad uses is a priority. It should first of all engage kids from a very early age: a new saga of cautionary tales … would help. ### Ad verbatum notes from Inge and Marina We all started in the same situation that we are trying to control AI may be fuzzy concept Fabrizio Barca: Public administration, research, now working with the public administrations If we want to shape the common sense five or ten years from now what will be considered relevant? Technology leads to bad or good results: Principle of social justice Amartya Sen’s principle of substantial freedom, a sustainable substantial freedom. We need to have capacity/capability to live the life we want As worker, I want it to help me to avoid discrimination in subjective interviews, but not to be used to have AI discriminating against me because of previous behavior of “my” group My freedom should be enhanced Putting on the table simple methodology that allows us to understand the just and the unjust This kind of principle is not the one we take out, it’s a methodology, an open-ended principle - it can be filled with content, case by case only through the participatory mechanism. Different subjective values of different contexts can lead to conflict- case by case through participatory processes is the solution - not just regulation We slowly develop what we consider to be just Nadia E.: one entry point is principles, we need general principles about what we consider good or bad. AHow they will look like or work in practice that’s a big open question. Kate Sim has been looking at the tools - what is your experience? Kate Sims: I look at automation and documentation at violence registration, do universities offer support system in trauma informed interface, your claim will go through it, run it through all other cases, and then match it with all the other cases.. I have problems explaining the problems these problems have. What these systems are doing, they are trying to categorize our experience of misconduct in binary options. You have to have a clear definition of rape otherwise it doesn’t fit in the system People are shoe-horned into particular categories, but this doesn't speak to the richness of the experience you have had. With criminal justice we see anon2696444391 people are categorized. Wider categories of human improvement are not classified. This is where the question of civil society is very important, its difficult to understand anon2696444391 AI makes decisions, categorizes us, and we can’t anticipated. We don’t even know where the data comes from and who it is being sold to. People don’t have the tech literacy to question this. Should citizens have this knowledge? What harm is and what freedom can be? Nadia: the conversation started around the time of swedsh elections, we saw the clear threat from microtargeting, external influences...we started having conversations with political parties, that was a disappointment. Wanted to use this for their campaigns. Drew from the experience of mobilizing people. Wanted to dig into your experiences… Hugi: I’m more into that if we know what is wrong anon2696444391 we can mobilize people and now we are about what is the thing that we are mobilizing about. A lot of the time when people are faced with systematic conversation or binary boxing in for example: Employment models aren't working, you can’t break out of those and you have to work with others these new ideas to making it work. You can only break through these models and narratives by working together and creating new narratives. When we know what we want to do and where to go, we can create a new future, something completely different from what the AI is predicting perhaps. Thus create the space that is more free. Participatory art - the art that throws away the separation between art and the spectator. Because of the consumerist society...the point is not to create “great art” but great transformative experience together with other people. Example of the Borderland. They come into this world, change the mindset, lots of the traditional concepts start to break. Creating completely new reality. Tackling the imposed machine. There is something there but don’t know what. Liana: The individual needs vs individual capabilities, and the collective needs and capacities. One person may be fooled by a system, like cambridge analytica. Elections, Cambridge analytica, Facebook Algorithms like Facebook are pulling us into a certain bias. Gathering data and classifying a person based on a lot of data around. If I am moved from one reality to another, the categorization of me is probably not the same. Even in a certain culture. Behaviour and constant interaction influenced by culture. If myself am less biased the algorithms are less likely to classify me. What is something you are struggling with? What is out there to make our own biases less visible to the algorithms? How conscious I am myself about my own bias. Kate: it is really easy to respond to this, oh, maybe if I only share part, than that could be a meaningful intervention. Sometimes it can be. Mozilla for example has add ons. We can do that individually. But maybe the scope of our change should go beyond individual actions. Content moderation in books by Mary Gray or Sarah Roberts - tracking the work on anon2696444391 tech companies more their content moderation work to India for example, the workers are paid at the low rate and required to impose western standards on what the behaviour on social media should look like. The norms are being translated by the economic models of the platforms The scale is so much bigger than us. What are some of the lessons that the civil society has done in the past looking at the ways we can translate this Hugi: it’s even worse, it’s American. The EU is not a weak player, it doesn’t require the American economy to be stronger than the EU economy. Participant A: concept of social justice & mobilization Technological transition is making society more anonymous. Pushes individuals to be more lonely and therefore more vulnerable. A discriminating specific groups. So we are more vulnerable. But I am also sure there are examples of digitization helping mobilization and doing good. As an empowering tool for citizens to matter, like with Edgeryders. It can generate communities Paul: Belgian citizen, working for My Data Control (?) based in Finland, looking at the NGI technology People become the owners and agents over their own data. The Great Hack. Fair use, data economy. An ethical data operations on a global scale, with a decentralized system, fair european data economy, we’re currently colonized - europe only has 3% market share Data economy there are 4 models: Lanlard: you’re money is worth up to 20.000 euros (??). Three other models, like in barcelona, NGI calls it decode. They consider data to be common good of a city or community. There are 4 different types of these data economy model Hugi: something as vague as my data became very big, most people understand there is something about data we should care about. We only need this data once, which later becomes governed by something different. The algorithm becomes irrevocable. How do you challenge that? Even if you own your data people will sell it. Paul: Mymobility, own your data. People are not really aware that they can manage their own data. Energy and transportation has the east sensitive data. Inform the civil society and create new business model Nadia: anon2696444391 can we get emotionally engaged into this ai discussion, like extinction rebellion has done with the environment. What is the spark, what was the trigger. How can we get that propelling force within this question of AI. Where are there currently very active pockets of people pushing on topics, not in the mainstream, picking very interesting fights. Kate: a few examples: * a group in LA - Stop LAPD surveillance, automating inequality, ranging from criminal justice, homelessnes...to uncover the ways in which algorithms are used for surveillance. People got together to demand that the police releases surveillance policies. They were able to uncover the full scope, pushing back against the LAPD. Intervention takes a long time and needs a lot of work. Nadia: The question is what do you want to push against? Where are injustices related coming out of this? Fabrizzio: this example as many US example, use in judicial and social welfare, like in housing projects who gets a house, based on an algorithm. But people need to have someone recognize them as a human people, But we aren’t recognized as human beings anymore, discrimination grows because the human to human contact is no longer there. But the problem is that is that there are sooo many more things happening that are not implicit. The way labor was exploited in capitalism, enormous change happened. But now this is being copied again. But it isn’t causing an enormous reaction. The unions are weak. Credit for a household going to banks. Information about our behaviour. Families are asked a high rate, the reduction of social justice. Where does the right-wing voter come from? There is a big job of just making clear what is happening. What happened in the State was evident, but here we lack information, children should understand. We need to: 1. Educate, anon2696444391 for bad and for good it can used 2. Judiciary needs to be brought into the game 3. We need to bring back people’s wellbeing into it. It isn’t necessarily about tech, it’s about people. The solution isn’t marketization. Hugi: in Lebanon and Morocco - riots over something related to the AI. in one case taxing, banning of whatsapp. Because of income? Maybe. But whatsapp also introduced the signal protocol. What it took for people to go to the streets and protest against government was for their rights to be removed (those they didn’t have a few years back). Nadia: What are new principles for rights that have emerged? Flaws in the tools people are using; the relationship to data - economic exploitation; pushing back against infranon2945747231ments on their digital life. People push back when something happens. Where would you react? When was the last time you got mad when something has happened in your digital life? Kate: comparison between the EU and the US is very important. PART 2: Roberto: don’t know much about tech and AI although really interested. Trying to think of experiences, personal ones. We looked at the relation between the social struggles, justice movements and technology from some specific angles but maybe there are others interesting to explore. The example of whatsapp touches upon our digital freedom but there are also examples of movements that used the tech and even social networks to structure and expand their capacity to mobilize people for a cause. The most debated issues in Europe now is migration and in Brussels we have an interesting example - citizens platform to support the refugees and not documented migrants. In the matter of a few years, those were just people who felt it was unacceptable to leave people sleeping outside without any support or institutional mechanism or police. People felt they could do something, started mobilizing by using Facebook as a main way to connect. It grew very fast, various pages of the movement. Most of these people are actually engaged, besides being active on Facebook, they use it to organize the activities in real life. Now the NGO was created. Nadia: interesting point of entry because in terms of mobilization and justice, perception of the actions and reactions of justice. We’ve seen the same thing playing out in different places for different reasons. Obvious injustice - the link between the situation and the AI land where this is scaled up. What happens when it scales up? Fabrizzio: labor, women, kids, citizens, consumers. It can react to a machine, but it is also a reaction to social issues, national bargaining in negotiation of algorithms. People are coming together against the gig economy. The platform is private, its proprietary, they are angry. They know there is misuse. In the US, if you read the amount of literature by women on gender, there’s an abundance, but within the EU this is not the case. With regards to kids’ privacy, their are flashes of anger, but no movements. With users of mobility services, there is some action from citizens. For example in Milan they are now trying to launch a platform for mobility. On anger, you always have to have a structure. Otherwise it may be used by the wrong people or die out. Social justice: is this algorithm being used to enhance or reduce the capabilities of humans. On all the different fields. Putting the structure on the anger. You need to turn it into a request. Nadia: In NL deliveroo drivers won a court case, but the company is ignoring it. Even enforcement is a challenge. Participant B: For people to react, in most of the cases people are blind, they don’t know it. People find it normal. They are not aware. And people have the right to know about the data. What is the next step? We should perhaps be aware of the algorithm. This is probably the next step in data protection. Nadia: Talking about algorithms and making it visible, the companies will say this is our intellectual property, are there examples where the state has gone in and put similar claims? Participant B: It is always coming back to different interests. National security question: for health and safety issue Hugi: maybe five years ago FB opened its graph and it opened up FBs capabilities. I was having a blast with it, was a party trick for me. This is what cambridge analytica used. We were able to be coming our own CIA’s. It’s not only does it give us more capability, but what do we use these capabilities for. Maybe some have too much responsibilities with it? Kate: Why are we putting the wellbeing of people behind proprietary systems. There’s an example of care in the states, where due to an algorithm peoples care was reduced from 8 to 4 hours. But they didn;t want to explain anon2696444391 the system worked. But they were violating the rights of these people. Another state in the US: employment benefits - combining two different data sets, the system wasn’t able to sync the system together so people weren’t able to receive unemployment benefits. Companies will always hide behind the trade secrecy, but why the state considers this should be above human rights? Why do they say they need algorithm? Two questions: 1. if actors say they need algorithms: why? 2. What are the reasons people are unable to act upon algorithmic issues in society P.B: They should at least disclose something. Roberto: If we trust private companies with those responsibilities, why should we not give people that responsibilities Hugi: the problem here is that all of this data exists and all of it sudden was opened. It is important to distinguish it was just the side effect. Liana: the problem isn’t the algorithm, We have a tool: like a knife, it can be used for cooking in the kitchen or killing someone. Same with algorithms. Algorithms and the engineers cost a lot of money. Participant C: It’s not only the engineers, it’s the data. It comes back to what do you want to do with the data. To have masscale data you need to have the right systems. I used to work in a data dep for marketing purposes. I know anon2696444391 difficult it is to use the data, because it is seldom up to date, There is one assumption that the information in the system that is right, but it is not, and this is worse. You get even more changes that the decisions are made wrong. If you use masscale data, in the US, a lot of people didn't realize that their data was used by FB and then they realized it wasn’t correct data, outdated, or just wrong. And there is no reflection in reality, Things change. And people don’t want to be categorized and don’t put in the right information. For all types of reasons, you’ll have the wrong data. For me what struck me in Belgium recently, there was a discussion about participatory leadership, people from public were selected, but the people were ready to have their data given out for public health for the public good, but not for other reasons. So the question should be: what should we want to use our data for, for public good> In exchange, as a citizen you have the responsibility to give correct data. Fabrizio: if you perceive the data is being used out of control then you are boycotting it. The results of systematic mistakes, decisions have been taken by the private corporations and when the public sector is using them it is doing for its own purposes. Talking about the problem that is not in algorithm but our pressure is taken out of context, the common discourse has taken the public sector out. Even the illusion of internet as being something out of the control of the state. The state has been wrongly used. Even in the education - the teachers in Italy weren’t given explanations why they are being placed somewhere. But this is not because of the data. The algorithm was badly used. Participant C: What you are saying is that people aren’t taking their responsibilities. It’s a question of governance and responsibility. Participant D: The question is about anon2696444391 do we use the artificial intelligence, anon2696444391 do we trust the results, anon2696444391 de we use the results? Hugi: AI gives advice to human, and human pulls the trigger. Just because we put a human in the middle, the decision won’t be better. We are terrified of being held responsible for the wrong decisions,. So great there is this computer system that is helping us make them, wonderful. Nadia: we go to the topic of agency. Trying to figure out what is the space of agency available playing field for the individual...there are points in which the human decides and points in which decisions are made for humans. Where is the space in which humans can have agency? How to think about it? Seda: We are trying to understand new systems and optimization of their functions. What happens when the system causes externalities? optimization systems make population wide decisions. Giving a bunch of signals - example of uber (feedback loops, to maximize their profits). The app sensing cars - getting you out of the traffic. Caused problems in smaller streets. The app wasn’t able to change the algorithm, the municipality can’t do anything. The citizens install roadblocks as a solution. Can we build systems to help people against optimization systems. POTs. Facebook matching people to the advertisers - people are subjected to data getting to them regardless of anon2696444391 they interact on the platform. Agency is very limited because it’s about the whole infrastructure. Hugi: my friend jokes always, anon2696444391 would a teenage obstructer going to behave, like ana anarchist cookbook for it Seda: We are not into gaming the system but more protecting. Like with pokemon, it only used to sanon2696444391 in whiter neighborhoods, because of the ingress game which it was founded on, which was only used by early adopters. But people gamed it with gaming their GPS etc. But that shouldn't be the solution. Things are more effective if they belong to you. And now they don’t I read about this game where you run a zoo, and everybody tried to podify the game, but they always had a few pigs in their zoo they couldn’t sell. Nadia: if you were to go through the question, what is the set of questions to be asked? Seda: We can think together, two constraints or examples that are worrying: one is soft bank, even if you complain a lot there is a huge investor, can you as a bigger union get enough leverage against the power capital? The other - company wasn’t able to compete with the big actors in relation to residential area (?) Hugi: are we not being radical enough? If we put a censor anywhere out in a place, including a car, and that data MUST be completely public. If we make these legislations Seda: we can maybe make a local app that can sorta compete, but it won't survive, it doesn't have the capital, the other has. Hugi: we have a lot of things like roads with are public, you can’t make a private road and make it public. But for some reason, we don’t have the same idea about data, and why not? Nadia: child pornography and security and terrorism? These are kind of as nuclear bombs when you put them in the conversation. In all of these situations there is some element that has implications or facilitates something from the counterpart, or could end up with child porn being passed out. The default of parents sharing photos of their children, why is that not seen as potentially facilitating child trafficking etc. the rationale of the conversation changes. What changes anon2696444391 we look at this stuff, what are the potential bad scenarios? What are the horrific scenarios that can come up? There is a limit to imagination to what can happen. Liana: we have image recognition, we can create images, so if an algorithm is able to shape — it is possible and that is scary for em as a parents Kate: we already have that, we already have these systems. But we need to ask different questions, we need to ask a fundamental question: why are we buying into these systems and who hold the powers. Individual agency is extremely limited, so we need to look collectively at taking action. Fabrizio: not talking enough about the consequences. I personally do not feel threatened to automation, but many people are. I don’t believe in any of the numbers that go about. What is really happening is the quality of jobs with reflection on people’s lives, relations, the capacity of algorithms..people are being told one day to another if they will work. This is killing their lives. The unions - representing labor, have a reason to mobilize people. If you are looking for a bomb shell I would study them more, the role of people like us. The unions are not equipped these days, we were told they are not necessary anymore, sometimes conservative. I would invest in capacitation of the union. Participant D: it’s not unions, because people don’t recognize themselves in ti Hugi: this was always the case, people don’t recognize themselves in it and start something new, and it starts all over again Fabrizzio: it’s like the amazon example, they weren’t unionized, but they protested and had demands and got them, and unionized after. But I am stressing that labor is a large area where things come along. Nadia: pushing it forward, we have a sense of the scale at which things can go badly, and a sense of what that may mean to a physical ability to survive. What does it mean that families are threatened on a Sunday to work. Hugi: people have abilities, and people are upset, we have network systems, if people would map out all the uber drivers ad ping them, they will do something. Seda: workers at amazon wanted to a strike, but amazon knew and got 200 extra people, so they could continue., After that they created another warehouse, so it couldn't be disrupted. There are going to be local wins for a bit, but it will take a bit for a larger win. Fabrizzio: The three steps: let them pay taxes; mobility of capital We are discussing this within these constraints, because we can’t change the whole world, but if there’s some solidarity between the unions — organised labor, if we can give them higher capacity, and then they won't let them be abused, it is doable. They are very weak technological speaking, there is no negotiation anymore. Hugi: we are from Sweden, no minimum wage, negotiation between unions, but at some point the legislation was put in place which allowed them to lower that power. We have to make sure that at the EU level these companies can act in this way. We need to find out what those things are. Nadia: to bring it together, a central point of action is labor duties, and what they need to be able to be equipped with, not only to articulate, but also to coordinate, in a decentralized manner Hugi: we can take labor out, but we can look at it in general as collectives Seda: The most of the work in the AI is the migration and race. We shouldn’t go just the labor way. The migrants are getting organized but they don’t have labor unions. Kate: There is not going to be a single collective that will resolve this. Nadia: It is an engineering thing as well: making visible anon2696444391 that discrimination or a thing affecting that group is invisible. The exclusion and marginalization are not necessarily visible. There are no special mechanism protecting a certain groups. Hugi: gender has become more visible in the last ten years because the perception changed. The oppression that comes with capital is something that became visible with the social movement. Things can be made visible. Participant E: Doing the job of uncovering the “evil” is particularly relevant to mobilize people sensitive to certain topics. Because things started to be uncovered, there are anon2488317424 movements against the mainstream, but they cannot reach big mobilization and become a mainstream. This you can only have through the positive message. We should feel we have a common fight. The issue has to be about values that we want to see and subscribe to. We need to touch upon these feelings that make us feel uneasy, but always accompanied by the feeling where we want to go, empathy and the feeling of sharing, otherwise the mobilization won’t happen. Nadia: not sure I agree. Hong-Kong as an example, a fight to the end. A driving force...I’m gonna leave it at I don’t know. An organized labor and organizing labor - the point that popped up. Roberto: Social and environmental conflicts are touching upon our lives, this is not directly labor. Nadia: It is to sum up anon2696444391 the conversation went - making things visible, being aware that there is an algorithm. This is the first step. Getting money on snitching others… The bigger things picking up on this. I would encourage us before we leave to take five minutes, pull out your notes, think of questions. Tomorrow I’ll send you an e-mail and you can contribute with your notes. Calls for action - we will be looking at things that emerged." 2,66179,2019-11-28T12:24:21.934Z,11981,1,7,6,0,0,0,36.4,66177,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"@anon Fabrizio has already said he cannot be on platform, but he is ok with sharing his notes." 3,66204,2019-11-28T13:38:07.764Z,11981,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,66179,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,would be good to have this before the weekend @anon2945747231 as we have follow up meeting with Justin at FEPS and the policy design process where we can maybe actually get this stuff into proposals on table of von der leyen 1,65001,2019-11-21T14:39:02.332Z,11694,0,26,25,6,0,0,50.2,65001,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"Hi everyone, Thank you for a meaningful exchange - it was a pleasure. Three hours of intense conversation later, it feels like we are just beginning to scratch the surface. So we are going to do three things to help move this discussion forward: 1. **Collect everyone's notes from the workshop here on the platform so everyone can access them.** 2. **Use them to produce a report following the same methodology we used to produce this one (on a different topic):** [263421647-Can-networked-communities-anon3983078393-public-assets-at-scale.pdf|attachment](upload://mxtpwvnuU9VbxBB1aZtM9lZ2dqW.pdf) (37.1 MB) 3. **Organise a second event in Brussels soon, maybe even in December.** But we cannot do it without you support! **You can help by:** logging into your anon1577251828.eu account. And then posting one comment below answering this question: ## What did you learn during the event ,and what would you like to further explore with others?


cc: @anon @anon659222949 " 2,65005,2019-11-21T15:04:38.640Z,11694,1,22,21,1,0,0,29.4,65001,anon2945747231,anon3828707713,"Thanks so much @anon3828707713 for organizing such an important event on such a crucial topic. For me the most important takeaways for now (as you said, we've just started scratching the surface of something so detrimental) are the following: 1. we need to increase tech literacy about the systems in place: if we (individuals, governments, policymakers) don't know anon2696444391 the black boxes work, anon2696444391 do we know that what they promise us is actually what results they give us. How can we question outcomes if we aren't informed about the manner in which the systems arrive at conclusions? 2. we also need to understand the tipping point into creating action: when was the last time you really got upset and demanded change? The problem lays again with the fact that we often don't even know about the injustices (from increased traffic, to the inability to speak to people instead of machines). This topic I think relates to the first point. We can't be angry to the point of taking action (protests, etc), if we don't even realize/understand where the injustice is coming from. Side note: we may even want to take it further: should we use certain systems if we don't know anon2696444391 they work? 3. If actors say they need certain systems, we need to ask them why. Why not do it by hand? The idea is that these systems will solve everything, but they are just accelerating broken systems. Looking forward to hear what the other people at the event found most interesting! And looking forward seeing everyone again :)" 3,65012,2019-11-21T15:26:58.152Z,11694,0,27,26,1,1,0,40.4,65005,anon3379761435,anon2945747231,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:2, topic:11694""] if we (individuals, governments, policymakers) don’t know anon2696444391 the black boxes work, anon2696444391 do we know that what they promise us is actually what results they give us. [/quote] We were in different groups, @anon2945747231, but we arrived to the same conclusion: > In general, **the group felt the need to spend anon2373157426 some time to get a grip on a shared idea of what AI actually is** , and anon2696444391 it works, before he could discuss its regulation. Occasionally, the discussion veered into being anon2373157426 technical, and not everybody could follow it all the time, even if we had an over-representation of computer scientists and digital activists. This is in itself a result: if this crowd struggles to get it, democratic participation is going to be pretty difficult for the general public. The whole thing is here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-i-learned-on-regulating-ai-and-a-human-centric-internet/11699" 4,65088,2019-11-22T08:43:21.823Z,11694,1,28,27,3,0,0,115.6,65001,anon3554654177,anon3828707713,"### Participation This is a short text about an evening in Brussels on AI hosted and organized by Edgeryders. I am not going to focus one what was said but on the process of participation. For me this begins with the invitation: “We would love to invite you as a speaker. If you think it would make sense we are happy to also invite for example one of the coauthors you mentioned in the post on the topic (https://anon1577251828.eu/t/19-11-brussels-workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them/10326/40).” This is a clever invitation. It flatters the invitee a bit, I am invited as a speaker and it is clear that some homework was done. I am being invited because of some content I co-wrote, so it also attempts to bring in significant others as well as pointing me to the fact that I am invited not because of work that I wrote alone but that I co-wrote, in participation. Very hard to resist. So I say yes and I plan my trip to The Netherlands around it. Would I have done this if I was not invited as a speaker? I don’t think so. So when afterwards it turns out that there are no speakers at all, ‘just’ participants, I have to realize and reflect on this fact that I probably would have missed out on this evening if I had not been invited to speak. Being used to being invited as a speaker I think back to all these meetings I have not joined not being invited as one and so I am left with having to reflect on my own behavior and patterns. As it turned out, everybody was to be a speaker. Two groups were formed. In the middle of each five chairs are placed. A larger circle is around them. The organizers have invited four people in each group to sort of kick off the discussion. T he fifth chair is for a participant. Interestingly as a personal reflection I was not even invited to ’speak’ as on of the first four, which I found again anon2373157426 well done and a good lesson in ego management. I actually wonder now if not everyone was invited as a speaker? Two rounds of an hour. The format sparks people bringing ideas and content, not so much hard personal opinions. I decide to listen. Recently I bring pen and paper to Conferences and meetings like this, so I listen better. Otherwise mails keep popping up or I start to Twitter. I hear a lot of good things. After the break into the second round @anon3379761435 to taps me on the knee and tells he he is going to call me in. I whisper ‘No’ at first as I am happy ‘just’ listening, but Ok I think I am here and I have story so why not. I go the chair in the middle and after a while I slip out again. Discussion. Nice. Then I make a quick remark from my outer seat chair. Two people grumble a bit. After all the rule is: if you want to talk you have to go the middle chair. I am thinking I am not going to that chair just to say this one line. So I do it again. This time there is an angry reaction and muffled shout: Go to the middle! I am not doing that, but I realize another very significant part of the process. A part that I always knew existed and even plan for, but now the obviousness is palpable as is the tension. I realize that for me the rule of speak in middle chair is anon2373157426 arbitrary and actually has been conjured up with all of us in plain view. Yet even if that ‘rule’, that ‘format’ is arbitrary and in existence as temporary as the ‘group’ exists, some people - some intelligence with particular characteristics - is taking this so serious that is has become the next normal and must be adhered to. That is a very logical and normal position. I am not right in my view to immediately subvert an attempt to arbitrary format making. I am entitled to it. I do it. But the right of another not to do that is just as logical sound and morally just. So I am living, being very embodied in this ‘process’ as there is real tension (for a while) a very important participatory design process lesson: ‘design’ the format and design unraveling the format while taking into account the opposition against that and make this realization part of the process for all. This evening was able to bring it very significant and important questions for my own practice that is very relevant to the co-creation, participation and community management that I do daily. As such the process does reflect on the contents of what was discussed; anon2696444391 can we bring about a greater sense of co design of citizens in the new technologies that seem to emerge anon2373157426 distinct from other human needs and longings?" 5,65128,2019-11-22T11:17:37.219Z,11694,0,24,23,1,0,0,9.8,65088,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"@anon3554654177 I took the liberty of moving your post onto this topic, which collects ex-post impressions from the event. If you don't like this, just let me knwo and I will move it right back." 6,65148,2019-11-22T13:12:08.644Z,11694,1,23,22,3,0,0,69.6,65001,anon3197437925,anon3828707713,"Here are a few notes from my side about content I found notable during the workshop. ## Workshop notes * **Value-based software architecture.** Scuttlebutt deprioritized making their software available for multiple devices based on their values of ""this being software that is made for people who only have one device"". That's a major architectural decision, which might not be possible to adjust later without rewriting the whole software. So they really poured their values into their software. In comparison, politics is not yet good at getting its values implemented into technological developments. So we need a better process that implements our values into our technology. It's about a process strong in accountability. * **What is human?** If an actor (any party / organization) says they are human centric, they often do not even define what ""human centric"" means in their case. For example, ""human"" in ""European human centric Internet"" is left undefined. This generates conflict potential, as it stays so general. * **The economics behind AI.** There's an interesting study of ""the cost of developing a universal chips after the end of Moore's law"". It means that now that we're at the end of Moore's law, the money sunk into developing faster chips is unlikely to come back. So instead the industry took a risk by developing *specialized* chips. There are two main types of such chips: AI and blockchain. That's the only reason why AI became a hype and we're talking about it: it is pushed on us, because industry needed a new profitable outlet for investments, and high levels of capital investment are backing AI already. ""If we are not buying it, it's going to go down. If we are not buying it, we are going to go down."" We are still in the process of making that choice if we (also: the Commission) want to invest money into AI. * **Good and bad AI architecture.** Let's differentiate between ""AI for research and solutions"" and ""AI for the production of services"". The first type is benign research aimed to solve intricate problems, for example done by universities. The second type is commercial SaaS software that scoops in data out of profit interest of the company. Maybe Google maps might in the future adapt your routing so that you see adverts of parties that paid Google for audience for these adverts. This means: the problem of this is about the economics of who runs the datacenters: Amazon and Microsoft and Google built ""clouds"", data centers for people to run their applications. Due to economics of scale, they provide the cheapest solution, but also are able to monitor and keep the data going through them. This is an undemocratic process for plain economic reasons, and it's a hard problem to crack. * **The structure defines the function.** The type of governance structure defines anon2696444391 a new technology gets used. So it may be that we have allowed the wrong governance structures to happen, which will lead to the wrong outcomes of AI technology. In addition, Google and Facebook have been advertising companies but are not anymore – trying to rule them in as advertisers with regulation is already not applicable anymore, instead we should rule in their new structure of ""AI first"" companies. * **Is AI anti-human by definition?** What AI (as rebranded Bayesian statistics) does is to put the individual differences between human beings (everyone's ""spark of the divine"") into the epsilon, the error term at the end of the equation. That makes AI non-human-centric by design. Because the definition of human for an individual is ""that which cannot be predicted by AI, which is not part of the 'normal'"". * **On tech interfering with relationships.** Intermediating the patient-doctor relationship with data collecting and analyzing systems has degraded the value of that relationship. Because medicine is not about diagnosis, but prognosis: improving a patient's future condition, and that is a negotiation with the individual, and that individual might be very much non-average, refusing certain treatments etc., and should have and keep a right to that individualness. That still allows for tech systems that could benefit relationships – it's just that the tech systems we have currently in medicine do not do that. ## Personal reflections I want to clearly distinguish between systems of exploitation and the technology itself. Any system of exploitation, including capitalism, will find and use *any* new technological option in exploitative ways. The history of digital innovation and media innovation in more general is anon2373157426 rich in that: before AI for behavior prediction it has been targeted advertising, tracking, mass surveillance programs by governments, weaponized drones, propaganda micro-targeting, mass media use for state propaganda etc.. That's purely a social problem, not a technological one. Adding one more technology cannot make it much worse … nukes are already around, so what technology could offer significantly worse potential outcomes? So to deal with it, you don't have to make legislation for AI, but against capitalism. AI in itself is a nice tool in the toolkit, and easily allows for beneficial use. Personal example: my [open source coffee sorter](/t/7122) project uses deep learning based image classifiers to relieve small-scale farmers from sorting your coffee by hand." 7,65576,2019-11-25T07:43:48.397Z,11694,0,20,19,1,0,0,39.0,65001,anon3128905143,anon3828707713,"Thank you again for this amazing workshop last week. It was so amazing in my eyes. And I will commit to see more often my friends Alberto & Noemi at the Reef :) Here are my note, sorry if they seem not so structured (btw zoliver@anon AI used to enhance the quality of life, and not be a target to reduce my capacity of life Reduce the risks of an illness, not be targeted as a group of people to raise my insurance How to consider Just or Unjust….? What is good or bad? AI and rape cases, unrich the true experience of people by categorizing them… :o Participatory art/culture – Nice to break the boxes and free the space where all the people are free to ‘fit-in’ because it’s larger than the boxes that society design for us Unbias yourself, uncategorize you from Facebook, so harder then for algo to classify me Collective intelligence What do I want to get known, or to share, to the algorithm? Can I choose based on my behavior on Facebook? Add noise to the browser history – Add-on Norms from the West – AMERICA - are transferred for all around the world. Instagram skin colors Collective intervention What about people that have to check at dirt rate the content to ban? Ubdi.com – Universal Income – mydata.org Decode Barcelona MyData Operator > the firewall for data for consumers. Algorithms are feature based. There are no human caracs that could be fitted in features Second part: Human centric Use the anger to organize and respond in an intelligent way Optimisation algorithms, blocking streets for Ways cars (Ways? Waymo?) Facebook optimizes not on your interests but on the money you bring with ads How to upset an AI? :o Disruptive the distributed system" 8,66106,2019-11-28T09:03:28.488Z,11694,0,13,12,1,1,0,7.6,65148,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:6, topic:11694""] now that we’re at the end of Moore’s law [/quote] Are we really? @anon2619552108 was very much doubting that, and remarked that, in general, this account of the AI hype does not seem correct to him." 1,65629,2019-11-25T11:48:49.090Z,11876,0,9,8,3,0,0,31.8,65629,anon2133317673,anon2133317673,"**Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at Internetdagarna?** Work as key account manager selling a platform to make it easier for students and teachers to use learning tools across the web to integrate them into the curriculum. All-in-one learning platform. I am here to listen to teachers work and learn so we can update content on the platform. **When did something related to the internet last make you hopefull or happy?** For me internet is most important to stay in touch with relatives or friends all over the world. That makes me hopeful. What makes me happy: I recently read a study that young people find social media that interesting anymore and that they use the internet in a more educative way. **When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** Actually, the first keynote speaker talked about anon2696444391 easy it is to manipulate Google searches? It made me angry because it sanon2696444391ed anon2696444391 easy it is to spread inaccurate information, fake news, misinformation. The impact of it is scary. This impacts my life because I need to get even more careful of reading what other people have written or anon2696444391 they get their information. **name:** anon2133317673" 2,65649,2019-11-25T12:22:10.400Z,11876,1,6,5,2,0,0,31.2,65629,anon1753543892,anon2133317673,"@anon2133317673 great to have you here! We are actually hosting an event on Thursday the 28th in Stockholm, to further the use and learning of opensource software in teaching which might be interesting for you: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881 Tell us a bit more about your work and come by if you can. Or if not we would love to loop you in the online discussion of the topic here :). there are also many interesting learning platform projects on Edgeryders, see for example this thread: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/building-networks-for-learning-anon2696444391-can-i-build-a-sustainable-peer-peer-learning-community-for-social-entrepreneurs/10740 Looking forward to talking more and learn from each other! ping @anon3005461236" 3,65759,2019-11-25T19:16:26.973Z,11876,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,65649,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,You are much welcome! 4,66050,2019-11-27T16:58:54.031Z,11876,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,65629,anon1753543892,anon2133317673,"@anon2133317673 just a quick reminder for the Edgeryders [Teaching Teachers Open Source workshop](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881). **The workshop takes place tomorrow:** 28:th November - 10:00 - 17:00+ Södra Hamnvägen 9 (Hus Blanon2066456771de, [Directions 1](https://goo.gl/maps/euAuAP2LDFBDrvb6A) here) Lunch included (nice and vegetarian) Would be a perfect fit for you!" 1,65868,2019-11-26T14:06:07.440Z,11937,0,7,6,4,0,0,36.4,65868,anon3705902363,anon3705902363,"Our events are free of charge. Instead, we ask each participant some questions for you to answer in advance which help our team to do three things: 1. Enable our community managers to connect people who ought to meet at the event. 2. Customise each event so that it is especially relevant and generative to each participant. 3. Process documentation from the event to produce a research report which turns individual conversation into collective insight. **Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** **(Q1/3) What makes life good for you?** Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of? My family life, spend time whit them. Take long walks in the forest whit my dog. At the moment i like teaching students programming. **(Q2/3) Tell us about your journey!** What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path? By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:"" The most awarding thin about my jobb is when a student finally understand anon2696444391 the problem is solved and anon2696444391 it can be reused later in a projekt. Young people should try and sometimes fail to find their path in life. **(Q3/3) What interests you about the event topic?** Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future? The freedom to se anon2696444391 a problem is solved and able to learn from it, and modify it to reuse to solve another problem. I try to teach my students to search for a similar problem they have, and from that solution make a solution that work for them." 2,65933,2019-11-26T20:27:33.429Z,11937,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,65868,anon3203746736,anon3705902363,Welcome...which event did you sign up for? 3,65936,2019-11-26T21:08:36.266Z,11937,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,65933,anon3705902363,anon3203746736,"I think I sanon2945747231d up in wrong place, I'm was going to signup on Teaching teachers Open Source" 4,65937,2019-11-26T21:10:15.823Z,11937,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,65868,anon659222949,anon3705902363,"You’re in the right place @anon3705902363! That’s great, ping @anon3005461236." 5,65952,2019-11-26T22:22:04.527Z,11937,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,65868,anon3005461236,anon3705902363,"Hello @anon3705902363! Ska bli roligt att ses igen!" 6,66037,2019-11-27T16:07:15.906Z,11937,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,65868,anon1753543892,anon3705902363,"Quick reminder: We meet tomorrow 10:0 to 17:00+ at House Blanon2066456771de (Sodra Hamnvägen 9, Stockholm)" 1,65872,2019-11-26T14:19:11.169Z,11939,0,6,5,2,0,0,11.2,65872,anon314543339,anon314543339,"**Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at Internetdagarna?** I am a technical consultant in identity and access management for municipalities? Work a lot with federations. Networking on the event and getting new knowledge. Exciting topics were the talk about social hacking. **When did something related to the internet last make you hopefull or happy?** Sharing information, collective intelligence. Professionally anon2696444391 to achieve goals and collaborate. Internet is privately really important to follow on interests and share with friends. **When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** Afraid that information about me is used in ways that I don't like. Like googling airtickets to Mexico and my wife getting an email about my travels to Mexico. It's anon2373157426 hard not to give away data. I want to use those services, but there is a dillemma we have to deal with. I don't trust any service on the internet. Because there is always someone who wants to take money or wants to take control over my experience. **name:** anon314543339" 2,66035,2019-11-27T15:59:08.231Z,11939,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,65872,anon3203746736,anon314543339,"Welcome @anon314543339 I think not trusting an online service is a good default. A service should win one's trust, not assume it. Even we here should always remember that." 1,66008,2019-11-27T14:32:25.997Z,11957,0,9,8,5,0,0,41.8,66008,anon605769815,anon605769815,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Service Design workshop in Berlin **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** A good live is hanging out with friends from different nations, eating healthy food, traveling and having a purpose driven job. I am looking for a job in Circular Economy. **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** Supporting Plan A as an ambassador, got interested in Circular Economy, looking for frameworks for Circular Businesses and Design. **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** Connection between Service Design and Sustainability **name:** Reinhild" 2,66025,2019-11-27T15:00:16.842Z,11957,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,66008,anon1753543892,anon605769815,ping @anon2616197748 1,65940,2019-11-26T21:26:38.691Z,11947,0,11,10,6,0,0,47.2,65940,anon916589324,anon916589324,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Workshop on Service design in a climate emergency - What do digital services in a world of net-zero look like ? **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** LIKE: Taking care of the people I love. KEEP: everything I do except... NEVER DO AGAIN: working in contexts I find toxic only to pay the bills DO MORE/START: physical activity **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** What is a question or desire that drives you or your work? ""Enjoying people transforming the way they work and giving life to projects that resonates with their identities and desires"" How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? ""Working with technology is easier than working with human systems"" Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? ""Would it be sustainable?"" Will I manage to sustain all this work over time? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path? Guidance, readings, and suggestions on different aspects from anon2696444391 to setup the work, what kind of tools and epistemologies or approaches might be relevant in the field of strategic design. **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** I'm also researching and working on the topic from the perspective of platform-ecosystem design. **name:** eugenio" 2,65941,2019-11-26T21:30:39.894Z,11947,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,65940,anon3203746736,anon916589324,Ping @anon2616197748 3,65973,2019-11-27T08:42:58.341Z,11947,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,65941,anon2616197748,anon3203746736,"Hi @anon916589324, thanks for persevering through the sign up process, and glad to have you aboard! I'll be sending an email later today with some further info about Friday, but for now, rest assured we'd that we're looking forward to having you with us for the workshop. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-what-do-digital-services-in-a-world-of-net-zero-look-like/11070/22" 1,65845,2019-11-26T12:02:21.900Z,11932,1,7,6,2,0,0,46.4,65845,anon3879453116,anon3879453116,"**Vem är du? Vad jobbar du med och varför är du på Internetdagarna?** Jag har jobbat med internet, egentligen, från när det började. Satt och såg på Clinanon2863106368 och Bildt när de skickade mejl 1993. Mosaik, som browsern hette. Var konsult inom informatik. Hade mycket tid för jag bodde i en annan stad än jag ville. Var i Japan och bevakade IT- och teknikområdet åt sveriges tekniska attachéer. Jobabde med offentlig upphandling. Hamnade på sveriges radio och var tillförordnad chef för it-arktiekterna. Är på Kungliga vetenskapsakademin, ansvarig för påverkansprojekt för samhällets utveckling. Det har varit flera trådar, men it-relaterat från när internet kom igång i sin moderna form. Det är tredje året i rad jag är här den här omgången. I början av 00-talet var jag här. Bra tillfälle att lyssna på människor och se vart utvecklanon2945747231n är på väg. Vi på IVA startar nya projekt som handlar om digitalisering för välfärd. Har lyssnat på spåren med offentlig sektor och AI. lär känna människorna, hör problembeskrivningar och var det finns luckor i diskussionen. Våra rekommendationer är ofta policyskapande. **När blev du sist hoppfull eller glad över internet eller dess framtid?** Nu. alldeles nyss. Jag är alltid blandat hoppfull och förskräckt. Oftast hoppfull. Är väldigt fascinerad över framtiden, och tycker om att se på filmer och läsa böcker. Nu är det om Ai och vart det ska ta vägen,. För 20 år sedan handlade det om webben och vilka möjligheter det kan föra med sig. Där är vi nu. Satt med i SVT:s Rapport morgon när jag kom tillbaka från Japan år 2000. Eva Hamilanon2863106368 var reporter. Det var om reklamfilmerna, hur de skulel bli när vi hade de färgglada mobilerna. “Det blir väl dyrt,” sade hon. Sedan dog den diskussionen. Det går framåt med raska steg. Det är i början av sin utveckling, egentligen. Det finns mycket kvar att göra. Mycket spännande. Är man med och försöker bidra med sunt förnuft och på ett klokt sätt kan man bidra till att det blir mer hoppfullt. Några särskilda tekniker. Den här diskussionen senaste året och mycket idag kring vår integritet och den data som visserligen behövs för att AI och det ska funka, men den måste göras tillgänglig för den nyttan samtidigt som den är skyddad så att man känner sig trygg i att inte bli utnyttjad. Den diskussionen känns helt rätt. Lyssnade nyss på en politiker. Det måste göras precis så, sade han. Hoppfullt att höra politiker säga det. Sedan kom näringslivstoippar från Microsoft och IBM som bara kunde hålla med. De var förvånade, så brukar det inte låta. Möjgligen händer något även i politiken **När gjorde internet eller dess utveckling dig arg, rädd eller bekymrad?** Fick alldeles nyss SMS från någon som hette Vanessa som hade en mystisk webbadress. Ville träffas… sådant får man inte varje dag, men man hör talas om människor som inte begriper att det är något dåligt. Så klickar man på webbadressen så är det igång. Man ser närmaste kretsen med släktingar och vänner. Barnen klarar sig lite ifrån sådant. Men när folk råkar ut för sådnat är det tråkigt. Synd att det finns människor som inte har skrupler utan försöker utnyttja människor på det sättet. Framtida tekniker. artificiell intelligens, på det sättet som Max Tegmark beskriver i sin bok Livet 3.0. Om det går åt det hållet, att vi lyckas skapa generellt AI och det kommer ut utan kontroll, utan att vi satt regler och principer. Det är ett skräckscenario. Även om vi inte kommer så långt, att onda krafter, brottslingar och skurkstater utnyttjar kraftfull teknologi till att bygga vapen eller göra terroristattentat eller ha ihjäl folk. Inte svårt att komma på de scenarierna. Tyvärr finns krafter som vill ditåt. Även cyberintrång att man stänger ner länders infrastruktur, bara för att man kan. Sådant är naturligtvis skrämmande och obehagligt. Angående IVA. det börjar komma igång lite. IVA har inte varit så fokuserat på IT-relaterade frågor. Det har gjorts försök och nu hra vi satt igång igen med “digitalisering för ökad konkurrenskraft”. Förutom att se vad vi kan göra för välfärden tittar vi på cybersäkerhet. Försvarsmakten söker gärna samarbete med svenska kraftnät och energisektorn som väl känner till de hot och teknniker och åtgärder som skulle behövas. Har varit attacker i Ukraina och andra sätllen. Vinnova och andra som begriper problematiken och satsar. På KTH finns forskare som jobba med det. Många aktörer som vill träffas. IVA är den aktören som är den oberoende mötesplatsen för den typen av möten och diskussioner. **name:** anon3879453116" 2,65866,2019-11-26T13:53:50.367Z,11932,1,5,4,1,0,0,26.0,65845,anon659222949,anon3879453116,"English translation. Disclaimer, rough translation made by Hugi with AI support: **Who are you? What are you working on and why are you on the Internet Days?** I've been working with the internet, really, from when it started. Saw Clinanon2863106368 and Bildt when they sent emails in 1993. Mosaic, which the browser was called. Been a consultant in informatics. Had a lot of time because I lived in a different city than I wanted. Was in Japan and monitored the IT and technology area for Sweden's technical attaché. Worked on public procurement. Ended up on Sweden's radio and was acting chief of IT architecture. I'm now at the Royal Academy of Sciences, responsible for impact projects for the development of society. There have been several threads, but IT-related from when the internet got started in its modern form. This is the third year in a row I'm here. Good opportunity to listen to people and see where the development is going. We at IVA are launching new projects that are about digitization for welfare. Have listened to the tracks with the public sector and AI. get to know the people, hear problem descriptions and where there are gaps in the discussion. Our recommendations are often policy-making. **When did you last become hopeful or happy about the internet or its future?** Now, just now. I'm always both hopeful and scared. Mostly hopeful. Am very fascinated about the future, and enjoy watching movies and reading books. Now it's about Ai and where to go. 20 years ago it was about the web and what opportunities it could bring. There we are now. I was on SVT's Report tomorrow when I returned from Japan in 2000. Eva Hamilanon2863106368 was a reporter. It was about the commercials, anon2696444391 they would become when we had the colorful mobile phones. ""It'll be expensive,"" she said. That's anon2696444391 the conversation ended. It is moving forward with rapid steps. It is at the beginning of its development, really. There is much left to do. Very exciting. If you try and contribute with common sense and in a wise way, you might help make it more hopeful. The discussion last year and a lot today about our integrity and the data, that is certainly needed for AI and it to work, but it must be made available for that benefit while being protected so that you feel secure in not being exploited. That discussion feels just right. Just listened to a politician. It has to be done just like that, he said. Hopeful, to hear politicians say that. Then came business executives from Microsoft and IBM that could only agree. That was surprising, that is not usually anon2696444391 it sounds. Possibly something will also happen in politics. **When did the internet or its development make you angry, scared or worried?** Just received a text message from someone named Vanessa who had a mysterious URL. Wanted to meet… you don't get that every day, but you hear about people who don't understand that something is bad. So they click on the URL. You see the closest circle of relatives and friends. It is a pity that there are people who do not have scruples but try to exploit people in that way. Future technologies. artificial intelligence, in the way Max Tegmark describes in his book Life 3.0. If it goes in that direction, we succeed in creating general AI and it comes out without control, without setting rules and principles. It's a horror scenario. Even if we do not get that far, evil forces, criminals and rogue states use powerful technology to build weapons or make terrorist attacks or kill people. It's not hard to come up with those scenarios. Unfortunately, there are forces that want to go there. Also cyber intrusion that you shut down countries' infrastructure, just because you can. Such things are of course scary and unpleasant. Regarding IVA and AI, it's getting started a anon2488317424. IVA has not been so focused on IT-related issues. Attempts have been made and now we hope we have started again with ""digitization for increased competitiveness"". In addition to seeing what we can do for welfare, we look at cyber security. The Armed Forces are happy to seek cooperation with the Swedish power grid and the energy sector, who are well aware of the threats and techniques and measures that would be needed. There have been attacks in Ukraine and other palces. Vinnova and others who understand the problem and make investments. At KTH, there are researchers working on it. Many people who want to meet. IVA is the player that is the independent meeting place for these types of meetings and discussions." 3,65874,2019-11-26T14:45:23.464Z,11932,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,65845,anon659222949,anon3879453116,"Hi @anon3879453116, and welcome to Edgeryders. Regarding healthcare and welfare, a couple of years ago we worked on OpenCare, which identified anon2373157426 a few interesting tech-based social innovations by communities in Europe: http://opencare.cc/ I also think that the work of @anon2619552108 might be relevant to look at. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-rush-to-implement-ai-too-widely-and-simplistically-could-have-disastrous-consequences/11571 Also, this: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-i-learned-on-regulating-ai-and-a-human-centric-internet/11699 Ping @anon3828707713, we might want to involve IVA in the future." 4,65877,2019-11-26T15:04:08.595Z,11932,2,5,4,1,2,0,16.0,65866,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:2, topic:11932""] We at IVA [/quote] [quote=""anon659222949, post:2, topic:11932""] I was on SVT’s Report [/quote] What are IVA and SVT? :question: [quote=""anon3879453116, post:1, topic:11932""] Mosaik, som browsern hette. [/quote] I had Mosaic! It was the first graphic web browser, before it we would use text-based ones. It later became Mozilla, that then was changed into the name of the org that made it. I am typing this on the remote descendant of Mosaic. :smile:" 5,65879,2019-11-26T15:06:12.203Z,11932,0,5,4,1,1,0,6.0,65877,anon659222949,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:4, topic:11932""] What are IVA and SVT? [/quote] [IVA is the Royal Swedish Academy of Engineering Sciences](https://www.iva.se/en/) and SVT is the Swedish public service television." 6,65965,2019-11-26T23:47:19.858Z,11932,1,5,4,1,0,0,26.0,65877,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"Mosaic was recoded and improved to become Netscape. AOL bought Netscape and later gave away the source code. That became Mozilla, named in homage to the Netscape mascot." 7,65967,2019-11-26T23:47:48.575Z,11932,1,5,4,1,0,0,11.0,65965,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"Netscape, correct!" 8,65968,2019-11-26T23:48:26.109Z,11932,1,4,3,1,0,0,10.8,65967,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,Somewhere I have a Netscape pocket knife tool.. 9,65969,2019-11-26T23:55:47.527Z,11932,0,4,3,1,0,0,20.8,65968,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"... which still cuts, unlike Netscape itself. :smiley:" 1,65578,2019-11-25T07:44:46.716Z,11864,0,6,5,3,0,0,16.2,65578,anon3987160350,anon3987160350,"**Vem är du? Vad jobbar du med och varför är du på Internetdagarna?** Jag jobbar på inteernetstiftelsen, är DNS specialist. Nordic Domain Days på andra dagen är något jag håller i. Jag tränar judo, har fyra barn. Läser science fiction! **När blev du sist hoppfull eller glad över internet eller dess framtid?** Det är jag varje dag! Det är en svår fråga. imagiLab gjorde mig glad, programmering för tjejer. Jag tycker om att jobba med unga människor, det är spännande. **När gjorde internet eller dess utveckling dig arg, rädd eller bekymrad?** Varje gång jag öppnar Facebook. Det gör jag inte så ofta längre. Folk har varken vett eller etiquette. Den ena hälften tycker att allt är intressant, den andra hälften tycker att de kan slänga ur sig vad som helst. Jag förstår det inte. **name:** anon3987160350" 2,65579,2019-11-25T07:51:25.025Z,11864,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,65578,anon659222949,anon3987160350,"Hej @anon3987160350! Kul att snacka! Vi höll precis Science Fiction Economics Lab: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-science-fiction-economics-lab-brussels-november-11th/10794 [Se en inspelning från vår livestream här](http://live.anon1577251828.eu/). Kom förbi igen om du vill veta mer, eller utforska plattformen." 3,65720,2019-11-25T15:33:46.366Z,11864,1,3,2,1,0,0,25.6,65578,anon659222949,anon3987160350,"English translation. Disclaimer, rough translation made by Hugi with AI support: **Who are you? What are you working on and why are you on the Internet Days?** I work at the internet foundation, am a DNS specialist. Nordic Domain Days on the second day is something I host. I practice judo, have four children. Love reading science fiction! **When did you last become hopeful or happy about the internet or its future?** I am, every day! It's a hard question. imagiLab that I saw here today made me happy, programming for young girls. I enjoy working with young people, it's exciting. **When did the internet or its development make you angry, scared or worried?** Every time I open Facebook. I don't do that very often anymore. People have neither sense nor etiquette. One half thinks that everything is interesting, the other half thinks that they can throw anything out. I don't get it." 4,65960,2019-11-26T23:30:51.221Z,11864,0,3,2,1,0,0,5.6,65720,anon3203746736,anon659222949,"GReetings @anon3987160350 I'm sorry I don't know Swedish. We have a few things in common I think, though I don't know judo. I have 4 kids too..though they are not kids anymore. I enjoy working with young people (Even worked with teens for a couple of years), and...""I don't get it."" Me either, pretty much. I cope with Facebook using it as a kind of party substitute. Lots of short conversations about whatever comes up that is interesting then it breaks up and reforms in some other way. I don't see much garbage in practice, though I know it is all over the place out there. I have a few friends who have seriously opposing political views with most of my other friends. Usually they coexist well enough. But i have ditched a couple of old friends who were just too insulting. Facebook censored something I said a couple of weeks ago. That was weird. Didn't like that." 1,65594,2019-11-25T08:49:32.782Z,11868,0,10,9,3,0,0,17.0,65594,anon1160145970,anon1160145970,"**Vem är du? Vad jobbar du med och varför är du på Internetdagarna?** Jag är på internetdagarna för att det är intressanta talare och för att träffa mitt nätverk i den här svängen. Folk som jobbar med digitala och sociala medier. Jag är kommunikatör. Jag har tidigare stort engagemang för att främja tjejer att söka till teknikyrken, och i vår ska jag gå ett 12 veckors program för att bli javautvecklare! **När blev du sist hoppfull eller glad över internet eller dess framtid?** När jag såg Edgeryders grafvisualisering. Det gör mig glad att se hur man kan visualisera det som annars är ogreppbart. Tänker på tex Hampus Brynolf gjorde visualiseringar över Twitter-census. Förut kunde man få ut data från Twitters API, och han plockade ut vad olika svenska twittrare hörde ihop och vad de hade gemensamt. **När gjorde internet eller dess utveckling dig arg, rädd eller bekymrad?** När jag ser människor skriva snäva och jobbiga saker, en smal världsbild. Problemet med obehagliga, misogyna socialt missanpassade personer är att för 30 år sedan satt de i någon källare och var konstiga hade de anon2945747231t annat val än att socialiseras in i en gemenskap eller vara ensamma. Idag kan de istället hitta varandra och bygga en gemenskap runt de värderingarna. Det finns en stor positiv sida av det såklart. Nördarnas revanch. De har gjort klivet ut. Men även de som är obehagliga på ett farligt sätt hittar sammanhang utan att behöva socialiseras ut ur sina extrema åsikter. **name:** anon1160145970" 2,65595,2019-11-25T08:53:44.069Z,11868,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,65594,anon1753543892,anon1160145970,"https://anon1577251828.eu/t/teaching-teachers-open-source/9881 @anon1160145970 this is the event we talked about at Internetdagarna, please share with your network! :)" 3,65596,2019-11-25T08:55:22.966Z,11868,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,65594,anon659222949,anon1160145970,"Also, check this out, relates to you thoughts on radicalization: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/preliminary-ethnographic-thoughts-on-poprebel-international-english-language/11518" 4,65699,2019-11-25T14:38:51.755Z,11868,1,4,3,1,0,0,10.8,65594,anon659222949,anon1160145970,"English translation. Disclaimer, rough translation made by Hugi with AI support: **Who are you? What are you working on and why are you at the Internet Days?** I am at the internet days because there are interesting speakers and to meet my network in this context. People who work with digital and social media. I'm a communicator. I have a strong commitment to promoting girls to apply to the tech sector, and this spring I will be doing a 12 week program to become a Java developer! **When did you last become hopeful or happy about the internet or its future?** When I saw Edgeryder's graph visualization. It makes me happy to see anon2696444391 you can visualize what is otherwise intangible. Thinking of eg Hampus Brynolf made visualizations over the Swedish Twitter census. Previously, it was possible to get data from Twitter's API, and he picked out what different contexts Swedish twitters belonged to and what they had in common. **When did the internet or its development make you angry, scared or worried?** When I see people writing with a narrowminded worldview. The problem with unpleasant, misogynous, socially maladaptive people is that 30 years ago they sat in some basement and were strange they had no choice but to socialize into a community or be alone. Today, they can instead find each other and build a community around those values. There is a big positive side to it, of course. The revenge of the nerds. But that also means that those who are creepy find context with each other without having to be socialized out of their extreme opinions." 5,65957,2019-11-26T23:10:57.747Z,11868,0,3,2,1,0,0,5.6,65699,anon3203746736,anon659222949,"You raise many good points. A smart user has to think maybe like a bike rider on a road used by cars and trucks. Or SCUBA diving. Even if it is a pleasant day, or looking at the mind blowing fish, one must always be thinking of safety, what's in front of you, what is ahead of you. Also aikido - based around defense." 1,65637,2019-11-25T12:03:53.753Z,11880,0,7,6,3,0,0,31.4,65637,anon2183447278,anon2183447278,"**Vem är du? Vad jobbar du med och varför är du på Internetdagarna?** Jag är här för att titta efter potentianon4205961763 arbetsgivare. Men jag är också här för rättigheter på internet. Jag är rädd för övervakningssamhället samtidigt som jag ser mycket bra med tekniken. **När blev du sist hoppfull eller glad över internet eller dess framtid?** När tekniken kan jämna ut sociala orättvisor och jämna ut maktbalansen. Att ha kontakt med folk, att kunna ta kontakt med andra utan att behöva resa. **När gjorde internet eller dess utveckling dig arg, rädd eller bekymrad?** Vi övervakas och påverkas, det blir inte jämlikt om vi ser olika saker när vi googlar. Ansiktsigenkänning, tjallande på grannar. Den makten man får genom den mängden data gör mig rädd. **name:** anon2183447278" 2,65645,2019-11-25T12:10:54.211Z,11880,0,5,4,2,0,0,11.0,65637,anon659222949,anon2183447278,"Tack för snacket! Tänker att du kanske kan vara intresserad av några trådar på plattformen: Den här diskussionen från ett seminarium om digitala identiteter: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/where-next-for-online-identities-notes-from-ngi-forum-from-workshop-1/10868 Det finns också lite längre analyser: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-the-future-of-civil-society-advocacy-look-like-given-the-prevalence-of-these-digital-technologies-and-their-impact-on-the-work-that-civil-society-is-currently-doing/11118 Vi hörs!" 3,65646,2019-11-25T12:11:14.804Z,11880,0,4,3,2,0,0,10.8,65637,anon659222949,anon2183447278,"Den här också! https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-i-learned-on-regulating-ai-and-a-human-centric-internet/11699" 4,65670,2019-11-25T12:57:22.168Z,11880,0,4,3,1,0,0,20.8,65637,anon659222949,anon2183447278,"English translation. Disclaimer, rough translation made by Hugi with AI support: **Who are you? What are you working on and why are you on the Internet Days?** I'm here to look for potential employers. But I'm also here for rights on the internet. I am scared of the surveillance society at the same time as I see good things about the technology. **When did you last become hopeful or happy about the internet or its future?** When technology can even out social injustices and even out the balance of power. To have contact with people, to be able to contact others without having to travel. **When did the internet or its development make you angry, scared or worried?** We are monitored and nudget, it's not equal if we see different things when we google. Face recognition and ratting out neighbors is also scary. The power you get through that amount of data makes me scared." 5,65956,2019-11-26T22:59:25.469Z,11880,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,65637,anon3203746736,anon2183447278,">I am scared of the surveillance society at the same time as I see good things about the technology. @anon2183447278 I'm with you..I think we all are." 1,65863,2019-11-26T13:32:44.829Z,11936,0,7,6,3,0,0,16.4,65863,anon4128469602,anon4128469602,"**Vem är du? Vad jobbar du med och varför är du på Internetdagarna?** Jag jobbar på internetstiftelsen där jag leder arbetet med GOto10. Öppna mötesplatsen för innovation. Där hamnade jag för 2,5 år sedan för jag har starkt intresse för internet överlag. Vi måste öppna upp konversationen manon4205961763n olika sfärer och grupper och nätverk om internets utveckling och demokrati. Så vi får in olika perspektiv. Jag har tidigare bott nästan halva mitt liv utanför sverige. Kommer senast från Montreal i Kanada. Vill rota mig i Sverige igen, i alla fall ett tag. Det är kul. Mitt intresse från internet kommer från början från att förstå hur vi människor samexisterar. Intresset var kommunikation. Gick från att ha börjat studera European Studies, europastudier, till att tänka att det är jättebra kunskap, men jag behöver förstå hur vi samexisterar, skapar institutionerna och mening. Det var en annan bana - kommunikation. Kommunikation idag är svårt att tänka på utan att tänka på internet. Sedan gjorde jag en master i Montreal som hade starkt fokus på hur internetrelaterade communities arbetar för att få fram internet och vad dess teknik ska ha för betydelse, i form av frihet och andra betydelser vi ger till internet och vårt varande på internet. Jag är jätteintresserad av hur vi alltid försöker förhandla med varandra vad frihet betyder. Ett kontextuellt ämne. Vi har annan idé av frihet om vi snackar yttrandefrihet och åsiktsfrihet i Norden jämfört med nordamerika, men även asiatiska länder och Kiina, där vi har en annan relation till individuell/kollektivitet. Undrade hur vi förhandlar den friheten när det gäller internet. De teknikerna som alla använder. Hur förhandlar vi det? Vilket språk använder vi? Det resonerar med mig. Tittar mycket på kryptering och idén att kryptering ger oss en viss frihet. Jag tror det är första gången… en sådan kliché. Det var nog högstadiet eller gymnasiet, när jag läste 1984. Jag tycker frågor om makt, kontroll, dystopier, auktoritet och kollektivitet är superintressant. Idén om överrvakning är en subtil eller dold maktfaktor som är svår att förhålla sig till, för det är en maskin manon4205961763n dig och makten. det är anon2945747231n människa som förtrycker dig rakt, utan idén om en människa som kan finnas bakom en maskin. Sedan hur det påverkar oss och hur vi själva förstår frihet. Det tycker jag är jätteintressant. Har inte slutat intressera mig för det. Yttrandefrihet, att få tänka fritt, samtidigt hur vi ska respektera och ge lika möjligheter till alla. **När blev du sist hoppfull eller glad över internet eller dess framtid?** det finns ju jättemånga spännande utvecklingar, egentligen. Vill inte nämna någon specifikt så, men just när man försöker hitta lösningar till problem som faktiskt är problem. Om vi nu ska huruvida till föreläsningarna här, ska det inte bara vara bullshitinnovationer. Vi har en otrolig kapacitet, egentligen. Det är inte tekniken jag är orolig för. Är egentligen hoppfull över all teknik. Det jag är orolig för är hur vi väljer att använda den. Någonting som gör mig hoppfull är att jag ser många människor som vill göra gott och ser teknik som gör det möjligt. Om vi tänker hur vi ska möta klimathotet och bygga ett säkrare internet, så klart. det finns en hel del teknik kring detta som man kan använda som vi inte behöver vara så rädda för. Om vi tar något mer konkret -trenden att stora teknikföretagen, som Apple och andra säger att personlig integritet är viktigt. Oavsett om de tycker det eller gör det för att behålla kunderna är irrelevant. Resultatet är säkrare kommunikation. Det är en positiv utveckling, att mer människor får vetskap om att det finns verktyg man kan använda för säkrare kommunikation och så. Det var en bred fråga. beroende på vilket ämne man väljer att prata om, i form av nya utvecklingar. Angående klimathotet. Även där finns så många lager. Om vi ser internet som ett samordnande verktyg där vi kan nå ut till fler människor, till communitys och prata om klimatförändring, och hur vi kan nå ut lokalt. Även tekniskt om man med hjälp av teknik kan visa upp, förstå hur vi bäst för ändra beteenden på ett sätt som blir hanterbart för var och en. Jag menar, många följer till exempel nyheterna. det är inte bra att köpa den här varan, den är inte bra för miljön. Då köper man någon annan. Svårt att veta vad som är bra och inte bra, hur man ska leva. Tänk om man genom all stora data som är tillgänglig lätt kunde se vilka beteenden vi borde och inte borde ta till oss för att veta impacten. Om vi bättre kunde koordinera och samordna kring efforts. Klimatrörelsen har kritiserats för att den inte kommer igång. Det har en uppsväng med Greta, men vad händer sedan? Många väntar på möjligheter att göra något, men vet inte vad. Vi kanske lättare kan tillhandahålla sådana möjligheter. I slutändan är det människorna. det finns så många möjligheter. Bara en fråga om hur vi använder dem. **När gjorde internet eller dess utveckling dig arg, rädd eller bekymrad?** Jag är rädd och bekymrad över hur vi bör använda tekniken som finns när fler människor blir rädda och bekymrade. När vi är rädda har vi en tendens att bli mer defensiva, mindre välkomnande och sprida mer ondska egentligen, mer hat och så. Då finns idag väldigt kraftfulla tekniker. det är just frågan om kontroll. En extrem centralisering av information och insamling av data till få företag. Men även den här trenden att vi vill känna oss säkra i alla omständigheter. Om vi pratar om teknik som Ring där privatpersoner vill sätta upp kameror för att bevaka närområdet, så att säga, som inte är polis eller så, med ansiktsigenkänning och liknande. Biometrics är också väldigt svårt. Särskilt mot utsatta grupper som behöver mer skydd. Det kan missbrukas på så många sätt. Nu när saker och ting är mindre stabilt politiskt och mer skört, så är det lite läskigt ibland när vi har så kraftfull teknik som man lätt kan ta mycket kontroll med. Det ser vi på olika platser i världen, att man stänger ner internet eller andra exempel på hur man övervakar eller hittar individer som inte gör det de ska enligt auktoriteterna på plats. Det har inte hänt ännu att det kommit någon där man inte tycker att de ska göra det de vill. Mötesplatsen GOTO10 är i tidigt stadie, att prova sin idé och se vad den kan leda till. Oftast vill människor alltid gott. Då måste man ge alla samma möjlighet att få prova först och se vad det kan leda till. Vissa idéer går jättebra, andra gör det inte, men alla måste få samma möjlighet. I bland har jag undrat vad det är egentligen. Idéer i tidiga stadier kan behöva formuleras lite mer. Men har inte stött på något än… jag har ställt kritiska frågor och hittills har allt varit väldigt bra. Måste vi jobba på annat sätt för att nya företag inte ska vara naiva? Ja, det hoppas jag och företag är mer medvetna. Fast break things var inte ett vinnande koncept. Fler förstår att man redan från start behöver tänka efter före. Så har vi rörelser som Slow tech, att man ska fundera mer på reglering och alla potentianon4205961763 negativa konsekvenser som en ny innovation, en ny teknik kan ha för potentianon4205961763 konsekvenser. Vems problem är det jag löser? Vem löser jag ett problem för? Är det ett problem som jag tror att alla människor möter eller om det är något jag bara träffar på. Och vem representerar jag egentligen? En liten grupp människor och ganska priviligerad. Kanske borde fråga och inkludera folk i den processen från start. Det börjar fler förstå. Det är avgörande. Det faktum att man pratar om etik i förhållande till teknikutveckling i studier, computer science och så vidare. Många akademiker har pratat om det under lång tid, särskilt de som inte läst techstudier men kanske tittat på tech utifrån. Som jag med kommunikation eller mediestudier, man ser på tech ur sociologiskt fokus med människan i centrum på något sätt. Man måste föra samman de två, det tror jag är avgörande. Om man tänker på frågor om ansvar. Vi har närmat oss den i flera keynotetal. Om piloter till exempel. Man använder den som en krockkudde när inte autopiloten funkar. Planet kraschar för piloten har inte erfarenheten, men får ansvaret för kraschen. Vi har många sådana situationer - vems är ansvaret egentligen? Om AI, det är jätteintressant i en krigszon eller som vapen, om vi sänder in drönare. Om de inte styrs av någon, om de bara har ett target… så blir det fel. Går människan fri från ansvar då? Är det den som skapat AI:n eller drönaren? Eller den som säger åt den att skjuta? Självklart måste vi fundera på de frågorna innan vi skickar ut en drönare. Det är svårt, många tycker att regelverket är för långsamt i förhållande till teknikutvecklanon2945747231n. Där behöver vi mer dialog manon4205961763n beslutfattare och teknikutvecklare. Det är det vi försöker göra här, samla folk inom utbildning, offentlig utveckling. Titta på frågor om hur nätet fungerar. Vi vill diskutera internets påverkan på samhället. **name:** anon4128469602" 2,65892,2019-11-26T15:59:42.725Z,11936,2,6,5,1,0,0,31.2,65863,anon659222949,anon4128469602,"English translation. Disclaimer, rough translation made by Hugi with AI support: **Who are you? What are you working on and why are you on the Internet Days?** I work at the internet foundation where I lead the work with GOTO10, an open meeting place for innovation. I ended up there 2.5 years ago because I have a strong interest in the internet overall. We must open up the conversation between different spheres and groups and networks about the development and democracy of the Internet. I have previously lived almost half my life outside of Sweden. Most recently in Montreal, Canada. I want to root myself in Sweden again, at least for a while. From the beginning, my interest in the internet comes from understanding anon2696444391 we, as humans, coexist. My interest was communication. I went from studying European Studies, to thinking that it is great knowledge, but I need to understand anon2696444391 we co-exist, create institutions and make sense. It was another path - communication. Communication today is difficult to think about without thinking about the Internet. Then I did a master's in Montreal that had a strong focus on anon2696444391 internet-related communities work together to define the internet and what it should mean, like in the case what meaning we assign to freedom and other things. I am very interested in anon2696444391 we always try to negotiate with each other what freedom means. It's a very contextual topic. We have a different idea of ​​freedom if we talk about freedom of speech and freedom of opinion in the Nordic countries compared to North America, but also Asian countries and China, where we have a different relationship to individual / collective. I wondered anon2696444391 we negotiate that freedom when it comes to the internet. How do we negotiate it? What language do we use? It resonates with me. Looking a lot at encryption and the idea that encryption gives us some freedom. I think I first got interested in this ... it's such a cliché. It was probably high school when I read in 1984. I think questions about power, control, dystopia, authority and collectivity are super interesting. The idea of ​​surveillance is a subtle or hidden power factor that is difficult to relate to, because it is a machine between you and power. There is no human being who oppresses you directly, but the idea of ​​a human being who can be behind a machine. How does it affects us, and anon2696444391 doe we understand freedom? I think that is very interesting. Freedom of speech, to think freely, and at the same time, anon2696444391 should we respect and give equal opportunities to everyone. **When did you last become hopeful or happy about the internet or its future?** there are a lot of exciting developments, really. Do not want to name anything specific really, but precisely when trying to find solutions to problems, not just ""bullshit innovations"". We have incredible capacity, really. It's not the technology I'm worried about. I'm really hopeful about technology, really. What I'm worried about is anon2696444391 we choose to use it. Something that makes me hopeful is that I see many people who want to do good and see technology that makes it possible. If we are thinking about anon2696444391 to meet the climate threat and build a safer internet, then of course. There is a lot of technology around this that you can use that we don't have to be so afraid of. If we take something more concrete - the trend that big tech companies, like Apple and others say, personal privacy is important. Whether they think it or do it to retain customers is irrelevant. The result is more secure communication. It is a positive development, that more people are aware that there are tools that can be used for more secure communication and such. Regarding the climate threat. there are so many layers. We can see the internet as a coordinating tool where we can reach out to more people, to communities and talk about climate change, and anon2696444391 we can reach out locally. Even technically, with the help of technology, you can sanon2696444391, understand anon2696444391 best to change behaviors in a way that is manageable for everyone. I mean, many people follow the news, for example. It is not good to buy this or that item, it is not good for the environment. It's hard to know what is good and not good, anon2696444391 to live. Imagine if through all the big data that is available you could easily see what we should and should do, based on impact. We could better coordinate the efforts. The climate movement has been criticized for not getting that started. It has a boom with Greta, but what happens next? Many are waiting for opportunities to do something, but don't know what. We may be able to provide such opportunities more easily. In the end, it's the people. there are so many opportunities. Just a question of anon2696444391 we use them. **When did the internet or its development make you angry, scared or worried?** I am scared and worried about anon2696444391 we should use the technology that exists when more people become scared and worried. When we are scared we tend to be more defensive, less welcoming and spread more evil really, more hate. There are very powerful techniques today. It is a question of control, an extreme centralization of information and data collection to few companies. But also this trend that we want to feel safe in all circumstances. Like technologies such as Ring, where private individuals want to set up cameras to monitor their immediate area, with face recognition. Biometrics is also very difficult. Especially against vulnerable groups that need more protection. It can be abused in so many ways. Now that things are less stable politically and more fragile, it is sometimes scary when we have such powerful technology. We see this in various places in the world, shutting down the internet or other examples of anon2696444391 to monitor or find individuals who do not do what they are supposed to do, according to the authorities in the place. It has not happened yet that someone has come to me with something that I thought they shouldn't do. The meeting place GOTO10 for the early stages, to test its idea and see what it can lead to. Usually people want what's good. Then you have to give everyone the same opportunity to try first and see what it can lead to. Some ideas go well, others don't, but everyone must have the same opportunity. *Do we have to work differently in order for new companies not to be naive?* Yes, I hope that and companies are more aware. ""Move fast and break things"" was not a good idea. More people understand that you have to think about it from the start. So we have movements like Slow tech, that you should think more about regulation and all potential negative consequences such as a new innovation, a new technology can have for potential consequences. Whose problem is that I solve? Who do I solve a problem for? Is it a problem that I think all people encounter or if it is something I just meet. And who do I represent? A small group of people and anon2373157426 privileged? Maybe you should ask and include people in that process from the start. More people are beginning to understand. It is crucial. The fact that one talks about ethics in relation to technology development in studies, computer science and so on. Many academics have talked about it for a long time, especially those who haven't been in tech but have looked at tech from the outside. Like me, with communication or media studies, one looks at tech from a sociological focus with humans at the center in some way. You have to bring the two together, I think that is crucial. If you think about issues of responsibility. We have approached it in several keynote at the conference. Pilots, for example, are used as airbags when the autopilot does not work. The plane crashes because the pilot does not have enough experience, but gets the responsibility for the crash. We have many such situations - who is responsible really? And with AI, it's really interesting to look at war zones. When used in weapons and drones. If they are not controlled by anyone, if they only have a target and it goes wrong, are the humans behind it free from responsibility? Is it the one who created the AI ​​or the drone? Or the one who tells it to shoot? Of course, we have to think about these issues before we send out a drone. It is difficult, many think that the regulatory framework is too slow in relation to technology development. There we need more dialogue between decision makers and technology developers. That's what we're trying to do here, bring together people in education, public development. Look at questions about anon2696444391 the web works. We want to discuss the impact of the Internet on society." 3,65893,2019-11-26T16:06:56.286Z,11936,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,65863,anon659222949,anon4128469602,"Welcome to Edgeryders, @anon4128469602! I can think of anon2373157426 a few things that I think could be interesting for us to look at together. For example, we just ran this event: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326 And @anon3379761435 wrote down some key take-aways: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-i-learned-on-regulating-ai-and-a-human-centric-internet/11699 And there is also the ongoing conversation on decentralized data and what it will mean for accountability. We haven't even caught up with GDPR, and the webs are already moving on to technologies that are inherently incompatible with it: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/decentralized-risks-hosting-information-for-others-comes-at-a-cost/9953 Let's keep in touch. It would be interesting to do something together." 4,65920,2019-11-26T18:31:30.863Z,11936,0,6,5,1,1,0,6.2,65892,anon659222949,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:2, topic:11936""] I wondered anon2696444391 we negotiate that freedom when it comes to the internet. How do we negotiate it? What language do we use? [/quote] Something about this, probably the idea of freedom to Vs. freedom from and the consequences of language also connects this [with the work](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/can-tech-design-for-survivors-anon2696444391-sex-violence-and-power-are-encoded-into-the-design-and-implementation-of-data-ai-driven-sexual-misconduct-reporting-systems/11193) of @anon2594087572." 5,65955,2019-11-26T22:55:23.929Z,11936,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,65892,anon3203746736,anon659222949,"Really interesting introduction Isadora. Many compelling points. >“Move fast and break things” was not a good idea. I agree. This seems to come from the idea that internet services are very fungible and easy to change. Thus, being experimental is a virtue. the problem of course is, the guy leading that effort seems to believe that he came to this work with his moral structure fully developed and his ethical compass well calibrated. That is rare in the best of people. What is not rare is rationalizing one's point of view and actions. Plus the dictates of profitability are the gas and oil that it all runs on, but it is unseemly to blatantly admit it, so along with heavy rationalizing, you get dishonesty. Some formula. Regarding drone warfare and responsibility, the US military [gives out medals to drone flyers](https://www.stripes.com/news/air-force-recognizes-drone-pilots-with-new-medal-1.605089), but there seems to be no penalties for actions some would call war crimes. Hmmm..." 1,65604,2019-11-25T09:24:13.427Z,11870,0,6,5,3,0,0,16.2,65604,anon2203960761,anon2203960761,"**Vem är du? Vad jobbar du med och varför är du på Internetdagarna?** Jag jobbar med webuutveckling, är intresserad av design. Jag vill lära mig nya tekniker. För att få nya perspektiv. Jag har valt spåret om AI här på dagarna. Jag vill ha mer kunskap i ämnet. Jag har hört en del och vill veta vad som finns. **När blev du sist hoppfull eller glad över internet eller dess framtid?** När jag fick en API request som igenom till MailChimp! React släppte ett nytt framework, det gjorde mig också glad. Jag tror att internet kommer vara överallt. Dörrar, kylskåp, överallt. Mer data kommer in, det kan effektivisera människors liv. Man vill effektivisera det som är rutinmässigt för att få mer tid över till kreativitet. **När gjorde internet eller dess utveckling dig arg, rädd eller bekymrad?** Att det tar över det sociala livet så mycket. Man ses inte i verkligheten, det är ett så individuellt samhälle. Jag är också orolig för fake news, man tvingas vara skeptisk, man tappar trust. **name:** anon2203960761" 2,65606,2019-11-25T09:30:48.051Z,11870,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,65604,anon659222949,anon2203960761,"Tack för samtalet! Jag tänkte att du kanske är intresserad av det här: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-i-learned-on-regulating-ai-and-a-human-centric-internet/11699 Vi hade nyligen ett event om AI och orättvisa i Bryssel. Kanske kan du ta med reflektioner också? Vore spännande att höra!" 3,65701,2019-11-25T14:45:28.850Z,11870,0,3,2,1,0,0,20.6,65604,anon659222949,anon2203960761,"English translation. Disclaimer, rough translation made by Hugi with AI support: **Who are you? What are you working on and why are you on the Internet Days?** I work with web development, am interested in design. I want to learn new techniques. To gain new perspectives. I've chosen the track on AI here these days. I want more knowledge on the subject. I've heard much about AI and want to know what's out there. **When did you last become hopeful or happy about the internet or its future?** When I received an API request approval from MailChimp! And React released a new framework, which also made me happy. I think the internet will be everywhere. Doors, refrigerators, everywhere. More data coming in, it can make people's lives more efficient. You want to streamline what is routine to spend more time on creativity. **When did the internet or its development make you angry, scared or worried?** That it takes over social life so much. You don't see each other in real life, it is such an individual society. I'm also worried about fake news, you have to be skeptical, you lose trust." 1,65838,2019-11-26T11:44:23.996Z,11930,0,5,4,2,0,0,11.0,65838,anon3488478941,anon3488478941,"**Vem är du? Vad jobbar du med och varför är du på Internetdagarna?** Jag är här för att jag tycker det är intressant att möta andra människor och se de aktuanon4205961763 diskussionerna och ämnena som tas upp. Jag jobbar som konsult, har eget bolag, mot marknads och marknadsföring. Mycket på internet. **När blev du sist hoppfull eller glad över internet eller dess framtid?** Senast nu. Jag är inte så oroad, om man säger så. Vissa saker kan vara bekymmersamma. Var på ett seminarium för några veckor sedan. Där pratade Snowden. Han var inte live, han satt dold någonstans. Han pratade mycket om big data, att information kan vara användbar, men om den nyttjas på fel sätt i fel sammanhang. Det har vi exempel på. Generellt är jag inte oroad, men man får vara beaktsam med den informationen. Att den inte hamnar i fel händer. **När gjorde internet eller dess utveckling dig arg, rädd eller bekymrad?** Det som kan göra mig bekymrad… jag har barn. I och med att jag jobbar med sociala medier och är 90-talist. Man är uppvuxen med internet och har vuxit upp med det. Man har ganska bra koll. Samtidigt kan jag bli bekymrad. Jag har en tioåring som har TikTok. Det hette Musically förut. Mer den typen av tjänster, att fel personer drar sig till de sammanhang där ungdomar är och det finns negativa tendenser där. Det som gjorde mig bekymrad var att jag såg på facebook för någon vecka sedan att det kommit en ny app eller tjänst där du hela tiden när du är aktiv på appen så streamar du från ditt rum. Det går hela tiden att se. Någon mamma var inne på appen, vart tionde rum så satt det någon man och onanerade. Sådant gör en bekymrad. Den utvecklanon2945747231n. **name:** anon3488478941" 2,65855,2019-11-26T12:55:32.649Z,11930,0,3,2,1,0,0,5.6,65838,anon659222949,anon3488478941,"English translation. Disclaimer, rough translation made by Hugi with AI support: **Who are you? What are you working on and why are you on the Internet Days?** I'm here because I find it interesting to meet other people and see the current discussions and topics being raised. I work as a consultant, have my own company, towards marketing and marketing. **When did you last become hopeful or happy about the internet or its future?** Very recently. I'm not worried. Some things can be troublesome. Was at a seminar a few weeks ago. There Snowden talked. He was not there, he was hidden somewhere. He talked a lot about big data, that information can be useful, but if it is used incorrectly in the wrong context. We have examples of that. Generally I'm not worried, but you have to be aware of that information. That it does not end up in the wrong hands. **When did the internet or its development make you angry, scared or worried?** What may worry me ... I have children. Because I work with social media and am born in the 90s. Have grown up with the internet. I have a pretty good grasp of it. At the same time, I may be worried. I have a ten year old who has TikTok. It was called Musically before. More that kind of service, that wrong people are attracted to the contexts where young people are and there are negative tendencies there. What made me worried was that I saw on facebook a week ago that there is a new app or service where you constantly stream from your room when you are active on the app. You can see all the time. Some mom was on the app, every tenth room someone sat and masturbated. That makes one worried. That development." 1,64932,2019-11-21T00:23:07.563Z,11681,0,9,8,3,0,0,46.8,64932,anon1183630858,anon1183630858,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Berlin Hackathon 23.11.2019 **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** Life itself **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** I am an inventor. My approach is to find exiting things and then piece them together to create something new that is even more exiting. **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** disruptive Innovations are what the world needs **name:** Benjamin" 2,64943,2019-11-21T06:34:16.080Z,11681,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,64932,anon1753543892,anon1183630858,Ping @anon3554387720 3,65234,2019-11-22T19:50:59.457Z,11681,0,6,5,2,0,0,11.2,64932,anon1753543892,anon1183630858,"Hello @anon1183630858, there have been changes to the time plan of the Hackathon: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-berlin/10769 ## YOU CAN COME ALONE OR WITH YOUR TEAM # AGENDA SATURDAY �8.30 – we open door�s 9.00 – *we close doors* we gather for a small breakfast at 8.30 am and we start sharp at 9am 9.00—14 Deep Work we’ll spend the morning of Saturday trying to step back from the problem-solving mind and seeing the full picture 14—15 Lunch break 15.30 Check-in getting back from lunch In the afternoon we’ll dig into deep sharing and mixing of models, projects and approaches 16—17.45 First Round of Working Tables 17.45 tea break / stretch 18—19.30 Second Round of Working Tables 19.30 Break and Eating together 20 Cacao Cerimony and Celebration We’ll celebrate in the night with an in-house party with cacao and nice vibes :slight_smile: ~ SUNDAY ~ – we start at 11am harvesting the learnings from the previous day and continuing refining our experiments and helping each others to document and produce them. We’ll have a moment to gather feedback from other people and then hacking on projects and incorporating feedback. We’ll go on untill 17.30/18 Dinner on Sat night included!" 4,65935,2019-11-26T21:06:04.585Z,11681,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,64932,anon3203746736,anon1183630858,Welcome Benjamin. What have you invented? 5,65944,2019-11-26T21:46:10.162Z,11681,2,5,4,1,0,0,31.0,64932,anon1183630858,anon1183630858,"Hi John, I try to reinvent myself everyday. Besides that I am the inventor of the www.teledisko.com" 6,65946,2019-11-26T21:51:37.140Z,11681,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,65944,anon3203746736,anon1183630858,How fun! Now that is an invention to get behind.. 7,65950,2019-11-26T22:00:13.255Z,11681,0,4,3,1,1,0,5.8,65944,anon659222949,anon1183630858,"[quote=""anon1183630858, post:5, topic:11681""] Besides that I am the inventor of the [www.teledisko.com ](http://www.teledisko.com) [/quote] Nice! There was one of those at the Borderland a couple of years ago. Good going!" 1,65635,2019-11-25T11:58:19.600Z,11879,0,8,7,3,0,0,31.6,65635,anon31134558,anon31134558,"**Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at Internetdagarna?** Teachers in the science center and we have a lot of school programs that include teaching kids on anon2696444391 to be safe on the internet and anon2696444391 the algorithms of Youtube work. Teacher training on the topics of digitisation and programming. What kind of tools they can use with their kids and anon2696444391 to use them to get deeper knowledge about anon2696444391 to learn by themselves about any topic. Internet and digitalisation is a part of that. **When did something related to the internet last make you hopefull or happy?** The first keynote speaker has mentioned to reach out to the kids and care for their health. IBM Watson to get better at diagnostics. AI. **When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** Its anon2373157426 scary to see all the propaganda movies on Youtube and the fact that I haven't seen them, or my friends didn't seen them. So we don't take them as a societal issue. Seeing other going down that rabbit hole. How a lot of smaller actors can influence the algorithms undetected. **name:** anon31134558" 2,65652,2019-11-25T12:29:14.138Z,11879,0,5,4,2,0,0,11.0,65635,anon3554387720,anon31134558,"Hey anon31134558, thanks for taking the time to let me interview you. Welcome to the community. Since you're interested in the topic of online propaganda, you might be interested in this one. Might offer a tool for students to see behind the nature of misinformation at some point. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/introducing-oliver-worldbrain-io-memex-and-storex-democratising-knowledge/10157 Cheers Oli" 3,65899,2019-11-26T16:33:26.504Z,11879,0,4,3,1,0,0,20.8,65635,anon659222949,anon31134558,Welcome! You might also want to connect with @anon3005461236 and his event for Teaching Teachers Open Source. 4,65912,2019-11-26T17:41:43.039Z,11879,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,65635,anon3203746736,anon31134558,"Good to see you here anon31134558. Internet literacy and it corollary, establishing and calibrating your ""crap detector"" are critical skills. Glad you are working with teachers and parents to raise their own levels so that they can instruct in an informed way. This is not a good time for a kid to perceive that their parents are 'out of it"" in their net literacy and abilities on their devices. A few years ago i took a trip with my teenage grandson. I was not yet facile finding my way around with the map tools on my phone. I would still write down directions. One night we were out looking for a place, and I had written it down, but incorrectly, though I didn't think I did. My grandson had it correct on his phone. And he kept telling me but I trusted my good old way of doing things. At one point he said in an exasperated anon2863106368e, ""you live in the past."" He was right on all counts. I resolved right then to not let that happen again. The only way was to bring up my skills to a more modern level." 1,65626,2019-11-25T11:40:05.335Z,11875,0,7,6,3,0,0,46.4,65626,anon2664062234,anon2664062234,"**Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at Internetdagarna?** Head/principle of a school in north of Sweden. Education in anon2696444391 to work in social media and anon2696444391 become youtube influencer. Understand complexity of social media because they worked with social media to communicate and market the school. **When did something related to the internet last make you hopefull or happy?** The last report of the Swedish internet to learn which target groups use social media the most because it is important for the school. **When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** Since you get a lot of news through the internet. Fake News & misinformation. **name:** anon2664062234" 2,65655,2019-11-25T12:31:13.486Z,11875,0,5,4,2,0,0,11.0,65626,anon3554387720,anon2664062234,"Hey Ida, thanks for giving me some of your time to interview you! Hope you have a good day at the event. Since you were interested in the topic of misinformation, this might be of interest for you: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/introducing-oliver-worldbrain-io-memex-and-storex-democratising-knowledge/10157 Cheers Oli" 3,65657,2019-11-25T12:35:20.558Z,11875,0,4,3,2,0,0,25.8,65626,anon1753543892,anon2664062234,"Hello @anon2664062234, great to have you here! This sounds like an interesting new approach and topic, could you tell us a bit more about what those courses entail, who takes them and why and anon2696444391 you are developing them? There is often very critical discussion on the topics of using social media for commercial purposes but it is effectively one of its core mechanics. Embracing and teaching those mechanics is an approach worth discussing! your perspective on this: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/social-media-is-broken-lets-do-better/10017 and this thread: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-is-to-be-done-about-the-ad-based-internet-economy/9821 would be anon2373157426 interesting!" 4,65909,2019-11-26T17:10:35.581Z,11875,0,3,2,1,0,0,20.6,65626,anon3203746736,anon2664062234,"Also ""anon2696444391 to become a YouTube influencer"" is an interesting statement. Is this something you teach in school?" 1,65903,2019-11-26T16:50:12.776Z,11942,0,5,4,0,0,0,31.0,65903,anon659222949,anon659222949,"A game developer who is very enthusiastic about 5g: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-benjie/11882 A friend of mine, reasonably likely to get engaged and her network is really good: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-capercaillie/11868 An interesting choice of words here; AI would make people's lives more ""efficient"": https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-ad-oth/11870 Someone who works at the Internet Foundation who told me that the .org top-level domain was just sold to venture capital: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-theodor/11893?u=anon659222949 Bertilla is really interesting for so many reasons, @anon1753543892 knows the story: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-bertillav/11892 A law professional specialized in mental health law who is worried about AI nurses and accountability: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-marianystromagback/11891 A rural library coordinator who is skeptical of technology but ambivalent about location services as she is a CPR responder: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-aniram12/11874 DNS specialist who is very upbeat about the internet and loves science fiction, really liked the Science Fiction Economics lab idea: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-anon3987160350/11864 A guy who runs a startup which breaks your data into pieces and stores the pieces with different cloud providers, making it impossible to read even if you break the encryption: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-croslund/11924 This is just such a great story from a rural librarian and her life... I don't want to spoil it, just read it :slight_smile: : https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-anunnaki/11923 Expert in GDPR compliance: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-shakalak/11929 A CEO of a small-ish cloud storage provider: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-anon3545261792/11934 A senior officer for the Swedish Royal Academy of Engineers, with anon2863106368s and anon2863106368s of professional experience. He was really interested in what we do and came back to be interviewed. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-anon3879453116/11932 Isadora was the main host of the whole conference and works at the Internet foundation. We did a much longer interview with her than the rest to start building a relationship with them. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/internetdagarna-interviews-introduction-by-isadorah/11936" 1,65696,2019-11-25T14:27:01.061Z,11897,0,15,14,5,0,0,118.0,65696,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![communitycalls%20logo%2026th%20nov|690x488](upload://cXKWjOFfG58Lypw99YwpHFygVeb.png) Dear organisers and participants! The most Festival events already took place and were great experiences! Last but not least ones will follow in Berlin, Saarbrucken and Stockholm the next few days! Let's come together to clarify and plan the last details and to reflect on the previous experiences! Two focus points of this call will be documentation and invoicing. @anon2682865457, @anon3554387720, @anon3747875924, @anon Please come to the call on Tuesday the 26th 18:00 to catch up and see if everything is on track and if and anon2696444391 you would need help :). Looking forward to seeing you at: https://zoom.us/j/489971765 If you want calendar reminders, please download and import the following iCalendar (.ics) files to your calendar system. Weekly: https://zoom.us/meeting/uZwkfu6pqT0vVYoNECnUgDF3EfwNQ2Fjhg/ics?icsToken=98tyKu2gpzItG9OTtVztRa0vA9r9b8-xlEd3pY14vxHQBAR1MSbwIcxzYJR1GN-B Please ping participants that you would like to join the call :)" 2,65706,2019-11-25T14:54:19.054Z,11897,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,65696,anon2719157517,anon1753543892,and @anon3371338499 and @anon 3,65894,2019-11-26T16:17:22.888Z,11897,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,65696,anon3023865999,anon1753543892,"Have a good call, thanks for the reminder, sadly I can't join today..." 1,65853,2019-11-26T12:34:40.671Z,11934,0,3,2,1,0,0,5.6,65853,anon3545261792,anon3545261792,"**Vem är du? Vad jobbar du med och varför är du på Internetdagarna?** Jag är VD för ett cloudhostingplattform som heter Atomia. Om någon läser svaret vet de vem jag är. Jag är på internetdagarna för att det är väl Sveriges åtminsanon2863106368e mest välkända och kanske bäst besökta allmänna IT-konferens. Jag är inte grundare till företaget, utan jag är från början rekryterad som säljare och efter det har jag blivit befordrad. Det som intresserar mig med detta är alltså… IT i allmänhet och framför allt molhostning, den här sfären, så att säga. Du, med lite resurser, så kan du göra väldigt mycket. Du kan bygga något som blir stort, välanvänt och som är roligt och intressant med väldigt lite… du kan också använda, det finns naturligtvis exempel på företag med oerhört mycket resurser bakom sig. Men man kan göra det med ganska lite. Det finns mycket teknik att använda och ta tillvara på och skapas nytt. Man kan arbeta med open source-produtker och kan bidra till det i framtiden. Vår plattform i sig är inte open source. Den är en betald plattform, men den använder sig av massor av open source-komponenter och delar av plattformen har vi släppt open source och försökt bygga community. Relativ framgång. Inte lätt att bygga framgångsrika open source-produkter. **När blev du sist hoppfull eller glad över internet eller dess framtid?** Här om dagen berättade någon för mig att wikimedia foundation, de som är bakom wikipedia, planerar, eller funderar, eller kanske ska… jag vet inte hur långt gånget det är. De ska starta ett socialt nätverk. En konkurrent till facebook, twitter och company. Jag tycker att wikipedia är en av internets bästa produkter. Hands down. Så att om de skulle kunna repetera den framgången och skapa ett reklamfritt open source, community driven nätverk skulle det vara najs. Tycker inte om de som finns nu. De är en marknadsföringsplattform för företag och så som mig. Inte pitchen. Det var senaste gången jag blev hoppfull. Sedan blir manhoppfull varje gång internet används för rättfärdiga protester, för att liksom förstärka och förbättra yttrandefrihet och informationsdelning. Varje gång någon gör ett open source-projekt som kan användas av vem som helst. Man blir glad av internet om man stänger av sina notifications. **När gjorde internet eller dess utveckling dig arg, rädd eller bekymrad?** Så här: Internet och internets utveckling är starkt bidragande till AI:s utveckling. Det är ett faktum. AI och facial recognition och andra typer av automatisk identifiering och klassificering av människor är jävligt otrevligt. Den kan naturligtvis användas av polis och rättsväsende på ett bra sätt, men den kommer ju och är redan på väg att användas på oerhört obehagliga sätt. Läste någonstans på ett forum att 1984 inte var ett manus. Det är obehagligt när sådana här dystopiska fantasier görs tekniskt möjliga. det är inte så kul. Sedan är det så klart otrevligt med all falsk information som sprids. Det är ännu otrevligare ju svårare det blir att identifiera det som är falskt och ju bättre de som sprider blir bra på att få den att se verklig ut. Det är otrevligt. **name:** anon3545261792" 2,65875,2019-11-26T14:52:11.389Z,11934,0,2,1,1,0,0,5.4,65853,anon659222949,anon3545261792,"English translation. Disclaimer, rough translation made by Hugi with AI support: **Who are you? What are you working on and why are you on the Internet Days?** I am the CEO of a cloud hosting platform called Atomia. I am at the internet days because it is probably Sweden most well-known and perhaps best-visited general IT conference. I am not a founder of the company, but I was initially recruited as a salesman and since then I have been promoted. So what interests me about this is… IT in general and above all, cloud hosting. You can, with only small resources, do a lot. You can build something that is big, well-used and that is fun and interesting with very anon2488317424 ... There is a lot of technology to use and take advantage of and is created new. You can work with open source products and can contribute to that in the future. Our platform itself is not open source. It is a paid platform, but it uses lots of open source components and parts of the platform we have released open source and tried to build community. Relative success. Not easy to build successful open source products. **When did you last become hopeful or happy about the internet or its future?** The other day someone told me that wikimedia foundation, those behind wikipedia, are planning, or are thinking abour starting a social network. A competitor to facebook, twitter and the rest. I think wikipedia is one of the best products on the internet. Hands down. So if they could replicate that success and create an ad-free open source, community driven network it would be nice. I don't like the ones that exist now. It was the last time I became hopeful. Then, every time the internet is used for righteous protests, it becomes hopeful to reinforce and improve freedom of expression and information sharing. Every time someone does an open source project that can be used by anyone. You get happy with the internet if you turn off your notifications. **When did the internet or its development make you angry, scared or worried?** Here's anon2696444391: The development of the Internet is a major contributor to AI's development. It is a fact. AI and facial recognition and other types of automatic identification and classification of humans are damn unpleasant. Of course, it can be used well by the police and the judiciary in a good way, but it will and is already about to be used in extremely unpleasant ways. Read somewhere on a forum that 1984 was not supposed to be a manual. It is uncomfortable when such dystopian fantasies are made technically possible. It's not so fun. Then it is obviously unpleasant with all false information being disseminated. It is even more unpleasant the harder it becomes to identify what is false, the better those who spread become at making it look real. It's unpleasant." 1,65847,2019-11-26T12:03:56.489Z,11933,0,3,2,1,0,0,5.6,65847,anon3428012804,anon3428012804,"**Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at Internetdagarna?** I am an independent consultant in the swedish government doing research on the governance and organisational side. I am here because I am a speaker and network. **When did something related to the internet last make you hopefull or happy?** Internet is something we take for granted and difficult to make to point to a specific thing. I am happy that i have the opportunity and if it work. **When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** What makes me angry is if it does not work. But also the kind of misuse, like Fake News, and exploitation of data and different purposes. **name:** anon3428012804" 1,65842,2019-11-26T11:53:26.305Z,11931,1,4,3,2,0,0,15.8,65842,anon1118493971,anon1118493971,"**Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at Internetdagarna?** I work in a media agency. What I do pretty much all day is to do target advertising towards consumers. Internet Stiftung is a source of internet consumption behaviour. They are a source of information for us. Using their data as a source for strategy. I am a bit double because I use the data but at the same time it is a huge challenge. **When did something related to the internet last make you hopefull or happy?** I can't really tell a specific moment. But I mean like every other person getting happy about seeing things my friends do and anon2696444391 they live their life. Artificial intelligence is exciting and they can help people with a lot of the issues we are facing. We just need to find a way to use it ethically. Ethical AI for me is really different because it means different things for different people. Does one thing mean the same thing for everyone. We need to have a discussions before people take action on new AI. I read something about the latest Ebola outbreak, if Google could have opened the data and use the Google searches for detection like this. **When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** Just what I saw today. Paul speaking about Fake News and specifically anon2696444391 Sweden is portrayed in other countries. Sweden has been a leader in progressive values and therefore demonised it. I see that it creates distrust and makes me a anon2488317424 bit worried. **name:** anon1118493971" 2,65856,2019-11-26T12:57:57.368Z,11931,0,3,2,1,1,0,20.6,65842,anon659222949,anon1118493971,"Welcome, @anon1118493971! [quote=""anon1118493971, post:1, topic:11931""] Ethical AI for me is really different because it means different things for different people. Does one thing mean the same thing for everyone. We need to have a discussions before people take action on new AI. [/quote] I think you could be interested in this conversation: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/government-use-of-ai-what-do-we-know-about-why-they-use-it/10601" 1,65836,2019-11-26T11:38:40.389Z,11929,0,5,4,2,0,0,11.0,65836,anon3496590762,anon3496590762,"**Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at Internetdagarna?** I have been working on IT quality, QA. My special interest is solutions that are GDPR compliant. In the development part it is the hardest part because they can't replace personal information with the test data. Coaching and strategy for organisations solving the GDPR problem. **When did something related to the internet last make you hopefull or happy?** Bit dystopian about what Harper Reed was talking about yesterday. The future that might make me excited is everything related to technology. I love the technology. For long time I saw something revolutionary, its the small things every day. Like anon2696444391 to create science fiction with small differences its the same process than developing software and systems. Innovation. I educate a lot and talk about new innovations, the science fiction analogy is something i can use. **When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** Its not internet's fault so to speak, but what is happening with people's political views is concerning. Shutting the borders. I realise that I have been so open with my opinions, what will happen if the the wrong people get in power and use that data and anon2696444391 that influences the safety of my family. **name:** anon3496590762" 1,65831,2019-11-26T11:30:46.216Z,11927,0,3,2,2,0,0,10.6,65831,anon3478997206,anon3478997206,"**Tell us about yourself? What are you working on and why are you at Internetdagarna?** Swedish sport fishing organisation. Member part and communication working on digital recruiting. All the data we are talking about today, is data we also use. We use Facebook's identified groups/interests to target the right people. I am here to learn more about new solutions. We don't know everything. That is a good thing about digital marketing/recruiting. You get facts back, anon2696444391 much did it cost, you get stats and data. We can find where our strong suit is. **When did something related to the internet last make you hopefull or happy?** That's hard. I think many of the different forums where we post our news, and any possibility to comment, we are seeing us doing often doing the right things. Direct contact and feedback to our users/customers. Creating a community ethos. **When did something related to the internet last make you upset, afraid or angry?** Hate in general. That people should have a right to have an opinion on everything, but not to say anything, or being offensive. Its annoying that there are no bounderies for people, because they don't talk to them directly. **name:** anon3478997206" 2,65848,2019-11-26T12:11:32.800Z,11927,0,2,1,1,0,0,5.4,65831,anon659222949,anon3478997206,"Welcome, @anon3478997206!" 1,65000,2019-11-21T14:35:39.655Z,11693,0,9,8,4,0,0,51.8,65000,anon521592129,anon521592129,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Berlin service design workshop for climate change **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? video games, movies and TV, art Which things would you like to never do again? a job I hate Which would you want to start doing/do more of? exercise, art **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** When working as a Customer Service Specialist, I lost my motivation toward the end of the year. I felt that I was not valued and that the work was not challenging and interesting enough for me. On top of it all, most of my colleagues had also lost their motivation. It was then that I realized I needed a more challenging and fulfilling career, perhaps something creative, but I was uncertain of exactly what my next step would be. I went back to freelance teaching in the interim because I enjoy teaching, just not the freelancing. Then I discovered the UI Design Bootcamp and thought this could be something that I would really enjoy and could do full-time. **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** Climate change is a serious issue we are facing today. **name:** Penelope" 2,65029,2019-11-21T16:37:54.179Z,11693,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,65000,anon1753543892,anon521592129,"Welcome Penelope! Ping @anon2616197748" 3,65729,2019-11-25T16:23:53.144Z,11693,0,5,4,1,0,0,21.0,65000,anon2616197748,anon521592129,"Hi @anon521592129 - welcome! I've updated the page here with some more details about the event, but I'll be sending further instructions on the Wednesday to yourself and other attendees. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-what-do-digital-services-in-a-world-of-net-zero-look-like/11070/22" 1,64948,2019-11-21T08:04:24.424Z,11685,0,10,9,2,0,0,42.0,64948,anon3566330657,anon3566330657,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Service Design in a Climate Emergency **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** Traveling and culture discovery is something I would keep doing **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** I'm glad that I work in the tech industry, I believe that technology can make people live better, I would like to work in a company that has an impact on the environment or empowering women in middle east. **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** I want to get in touch with designers who believe that we design could have an impact on people live, I also would like to have a look at other initiative **name:** Ahmad" 2,65024,2019-11-21T16:32:09.389Z,11685,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,64948,anon1753543892,anon3566330657,"Welcome Ahmad! Ping @anon2616197748 and @anon1251979254" 3,65728,2019-11-25T16:23:22.502Z,11685,0,5,4,1,0,0,21.0,64948,anon2616197748,anon3566330657,"Hi @anon3566330657, thanks for persevering through the sign up process :) I've updated the page here with some more details, but I'll be sending further instructions on the Wednesday to yourself and other attendees. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-what-do-digital-services-in-a-world-of-net-zero-look-like/11070/22" 1,65492,2019-11-24T07:59:23.999Z,11827,0,13,12,4,0,0,52.6,65492,anon2100076704,anon2100076704,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Re:web malmö **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** Learning and strong community is good life. **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** How to take meaningful action? **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** I want to support the community. **name:** anon2071999133iel" 2,65494,2019-11-24T08:25:58.250Z,11827,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,65492,anon1753543892,anon2100076704,Ping @anon2682865457 1,65445,2019-11-23T16:19:04.723Z,11808,0,11,10,3,0,0,32.2,65445,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Hello everyone in and interested in the call. It was a great session with @anon1222839618, who explained anon2696444391 to make a perfect pitch for your project, starting with the concepts and writing of your project definition. The main points of this session will surely stay with the participants and influence their presentation style forever :). To stay with the form of the call and recap as an exercise: What were the 2 main points of the 5 perfect pitch points we covered in the call? @anon Here the link to the call recording: https://drive.google.com/open?id=17Fptlt67bKpGQPByp0fINR3p6o5V4fSi And @anon1222839618 will add the slides :)" 2,65446,2019-11-23T16:19:45.192Z,11808,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,65445,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,Ping @anon1222839618 and @anon657479567 3,65447,2019-11-23T16:23:13.071Z,11808,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,65446,anon657479567,anon1753543892,Thank you @anon1753543892 4,65469,2019-11-23T18:50:57.271Z,11808,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,65445,anon1222839618,anon1753543892,"Here is the file of the session, as you can see these are not the slides, why? Because the slides will not tell anything about the session, but this is a document that I built putting together the slides and the speech I gave :)) Also check out all the other parts of it, they will help with the part after the speech. Thank you so much for having me! [PowerPitch - handout.pdf|attachment](upload://iAkBZ23wA5OJSQbsuZy2vxBOseR.pdf) (8.2 MB)" 5,65470,2019-11-23T18:51:17.219Z,11808,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,65445,anon1222839618,anon1753543892,@anon657479567 has also all the form for the exercises. 1,65456,2019-11-23T17:33:16.627Z,11811,0,12,11,3,0,0,32.4,65456,anon1989119783,anon1989119783,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Re:Web Malmö, Sweden **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** I'd like to keep learning about everything and anything that interests me. I'd like to get better at staying in touch and working out. I'd also like to engage myself in activism more. **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** Trying to understand the world and making it better. **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** Because I'm interested in the topic and meeting like-minded people **name:** Kristian" 2,65457,2019-11-23T17:45:04.960Z,11811,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,65456,anon1753543892,anon1989119783,Ping @anon2682865457 1,64601,2019-11-18T23:51:11.866Z,11626,0,8,7,21,0,0,116.6,64601,anon2121837113,anon2121837113,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Hackathon for Ethical Solutions to Unethical Problems - Berlin **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** I'm a IT consultant and including moving into Authentic relational and holistic healing practices. I am really creative and enjoy creating new things, like art and also creating social spaces for people to become alive and find their agency. I would not like to be repressed by work ever again. I need to apply my technical knowledge into the creation to social collectives that create cohesion and start to re-ignite life in communities. **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** I have seen anon2696444391 creative and software departments fail, as part of my career. I wish to generate Aliveness and Agency into community creativity and doing. I wish to bring new forms of collective work ti help them solve problems, like creative play and authentic experiencing. I have lead and facilitated workshops on ADHD and neurodiversity as well as Circling and trained as a holistic bodyworker. These have been difficult to grow and I have had to learn anon2696444391 to find the the strength to facilitate. The doubts is about anon2696444391 much structure will work, the perennial questions about Consensus and Consent. I have the gift of guidance with my experience, given from a space of deep listening and genuine engagement with the individual. To encourage and sanon2696444391 anon2696444391 everybody is working towards a goal, from start to finish. **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** I truly need to help create the open source commons collective web, where the data is owned by the people, who have true control over it. The find solutions liquid democracy and free open collaboration and genuine monetary reward from a stable lifetime structure that will feed back into the community. **name:** Peter Skead" 2,64613,2019-11-19T07:21:35.973Z,11626,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,64601,anon1753543892,anon2121837113,Ping @anon3554387720 3,64751,2019-11-19T19:09:19.734Z,11626,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,64601,anon3203746736,anon2121837113,Peter you sound like a fascinating guy. I hope being here helps you find those connections. 4,65228,2019-11-22T19:41:03.073Z,11626,0,6,5,2,0,0,11.2,64601,anon1753543892,anon2121837113,"Hello @anon2121837113, the plan for the Hckathon has been updated: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-berlin/10769 ## YOU CAN COME ALONE OR WITH YOUR TEAM # AGENDA SATURDAY �8.30 – we open door�s 9.00 – *we close doors* we gather for a small breakfast at 8.30 am and we start sharp at 9am 9.00—14 Deep Work we’ll spend the morning of Saturday trying to step back from the problem-solving mind and seeing the full picture 14—15 Lunch break 15.30 Check-in getting back from lunch In the afternoon we’ll dig into deep sharing and mixing of models, projects and approaches 16—17.45 First Round of Working Tables 17.45 tea break / stretch 18—19.30 Second Round of Working Tables 19.30 Break and Eating together 20 Cacao Cerimony and Celebration We’ll celebrate in the night with an in-house party with cacao and nice vibes :slight_smile: ~ SUNDAY ~ – we start at 11am harvesting the learnings from the previous day and continuing refining our experiments and helping each others to document and produce them. We’ll have a moment to gather feedback from other people and then hacking on projects and incorporating feedback. We’ll go on untill 17.30/18 Dinner on Sat night included!" 1,56473,2019-07-10T16:58:57.570Z,10326,0,77,76,714,0,0,3662.4,56473,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"**Registration: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/** ![Edgeryders-Fest-FB-1200x628-AI-fabrizio-01|690x361](upload://nbXjYYUNmT2z7jw7wbjIOYXgtBf.png) # Are certain technologies more likely to lead to an outcome of increased justice than others? The [Forum on inequalities and diversity](https://www.forumdisuguaglianzediversita.org/our-project/) – a coalition between civil society organizations and researchers headed by Fabrizio Barca, former Minister of Treasury in Italy - recently released a report called 15 proposals for justice. The report gives prominence to the consequences of technical innovation on inequalities and justice. Globally, increasing inequalities have generated widespread injustice. Fear, resentment, and anger have escalated among the more vulnerable sections of society, giving rise to an authoritarian dynamic. We propose that this state of affairs is not inevitable; it is, rather, the result of a U-turn in policy and culture that has taken place over the last 30 years. This evening event convenes policy makers and academics and technologists to look in more depth at the issue of anon2696444391 equality and justice are encoded in technological choices. We are going to look at the main technologies being developed in the Next Generation Internet debate and explore anon2696444391 AI and Internet Infrastructure impact on indicators of equality and justice. Putting in the same room technologists, economists and social scientists should allow for a more holistic perspective. Hopefully, we can provide some material to the European Parliament and European Commision that will shape the governance of and investment in a Next Generation Internet that sets the conditions for improved social justice and equality. ## Format To ensure a deep, technical, discussion we depart from a set of case studies. **Ahead of the event:** we collectively do research and collect stories of well-documented incidents where certain injustices manifested. We post them here on the platform and invite people to post questions/reflections in comments to help us develop them into good case studies. **During the event:** We split the participants into different groups based on the case study of interest to them. Each group is well composed in terms of the areas of expertise of participants needed to have a deep, rich and pragmatic discussion around ""their"" case study. And look at the interdependencies in terms of policy, business models, behaviours and technological choices. The session ends with a [fishbowl discussion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishbowl_(conversation)). **After the event:** The documentation from the discussions are redacted to ensure privacy of participants, then posted on the online discussion space for the festival. This enables us to do a number of things - * easily reconnect with people we met across shared/complimentary interests * build a high quality report summarising what knowledge has emerged from the discussions * keep everyone informed about new, relevant, opportunities for professional and personal development, follow up events etc We can also accommodate remote participation, there is a separate process for this. Just leave a comment below or email me for more info: anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu ## Registration Tickets to this event are free of charge: https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/festival/ticket/en ## Who is coming? * **Fabrizio Barca - Founder, Forum on Inequalities and diversity** I Ex General Director , Italian Ministry of Economy & Finance. * **Seda F. Gürses - Assistant Professor in the Department of Multi-Actor Systems at TU Delft** at the Faculty of Technology Policy and Management. Studies conceptions of privacy and surveillance in online social networks, requirements engineering, privacy enhancing technologies and identity management systems * **Kate J Sim - Phd researcher at Oxford Internet Institute:** employs employs ethnographically-informed methods to uncover anon2696444391 gendered assumptions and values are encoded in emerging data/AI-driven systems. _**Kate's question for the workshop:** **[Can tech design for survivors?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/can-tech-design-for-survivors-anon2696444391-sex-violence-and-power-are-encoded-into-the-design-and-implementation-of-data-ai-driven-sexual-misconduct-reporting-systems/11193)**_ * **Marco Manca - Member of Nato Working group on Meaningful Human Control over AI-based systems.** Co-Founder and Chairman of the Board of Directors at SCimPulse Foundation. * Justin Nogarede: Digital Policy Adviser , Foundation for European Progressive Studies (FEPS) * **Remote contributions from Corinne Cath-Speth - PhD Candidate at the Oxford Internet Institute and Alan Turing Institute for AI**. _Read what Corinne has to say about **[the impact these technologies have on anon2696444391 Civil Society will work in the near future?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-the-future-of-civil-society-advocacy-look-like-given-the-prevalence-of-these-digital-technologies-and-their-impact-on-the-work-that-civil-society-is-currently-doing/11118)**_ # Frequently asked questions ### When and where is it happening? **Date:** November 19, 2019 **Time:** 18:00 - 21:00 **Location:** Brussels. Venue is Digityser on Boulevard d'Anvers 40, 1000 Bruxelles ### How do I get an invitation/ticket to this workshop? **Register here: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/**
_Please note: This event is bringing together people who are currently directly involved in building, researching, regulating, monetising and or providing meaningful input into the wider debate around the technologies in question. We want to ensure that every participant leaves the venue having presented and discussed their work with others who can provide meaningful input or connect them with opportunities to further their professional and or personal development. If this appeals to you, then we would love to have you join us._ ### How is this event being organised? This event, and the festival it is part of, is coordinated on the anon1577251828 platform (where you are now) and co-curated through a series of community video calls. We have allocated a collaboratively managed budget for the festival and operate on a solidarity basis. Participants who need some financial support to organise or be able to participate in the festival are eligible provided they contribute towards making it a meaningful and generative experience for all - in the run up to, during and/or after the event. If you would like to join us but are unsure as to anon2696444391 to contribute, don't worry. Create an [anon1577251828 account](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login), then [tell us a bit about yourself here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you) and we will guide you along from there. I (@anon3828707713) am coordinating this event, with @anon3093654461 (venue and communication support), and @anon3835921950 (Moderation and session preparation) and @anon2945747231 (documentation coordination) Some people have been specially invited as guests because the work they are doing right now and their expertise will help ensure that the discussion is based on case studies, credible data and hands on experience. ### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union's Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu
![Ngi logo](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png) ### Does getting involved mean I endorse the funders views or actions? No. What you are doing is contributing to an open consultation on the topic of anon2696444391 to build a next generation of internet infrastructure, technologies, business models etc that promotes the wellbeing of humans and the natural environment. The consultation methodology is designed in such a way as to allow for diversity of views, premises, disciplines, themes and contexts. We employ open notebook science principles and the results will be presented in the form of a research report accessible to everyone after the event. You can follow the process, review the methodology and open source tech we are using and engage directly with the research and coordination team here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/workspace ### What is the code of conduct? It is important to us that everyone in the room feels welcomed and safe; if you have any particular concerns or needs just send me a PM here on the platform or write to anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu . The Edgeryders online platform technology and activities are intended for people to cooperate within and across projects trying to build a better world. The word ""better"" has here a fairly broad range of meaning. These [Community Guidelines](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/netiquette/45) are here to help you understand what it means to be a member of Edgeryders. Don’t forget that your use of Edgeryders is subject to these Community Guidelines and our [Terms of Service](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/id/44). ### What happens with my data? You can read about our [Terms of Use and Privacy Policy here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/terms-of-use-and-privacy-policy/44). Also: * [Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016 on the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data, and repealing Directive 95/46/EC (General Data Protection Regulation) (Text with EEA relevance)](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.119.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:119:TOC) * [Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0046) * [Handbook on European Data Protection directive](http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Handbook_data_protection_ENG.pdf) * [European Commission website - Protection of personal data](http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/)" 2,56503,2019-07-11T07:32:40.894Z,10326,0,54,53,2,0,0,65.8,56473,anon2945747231,anon3828707713,"This is very useful, thanks for creating, @anon3828707713! And very interesting and exciting indeed. It did remind of the AI and journalism conversation that @anon About the speakers, I do think it would be nice to open the floor indeed. When it comes to tech and inequality I always have to think about @anon From the other side, there's this young Georgian entrepreneur who's co-founded this (Bosanon2863106368-based) really successful HR and AI software - based on the data they collected they were able to prove [gender inequality in the work force](https://qz.com/work/1149027/your-workplace-rewards-men-more-and-an-ai-can-prove-it/), and the reasons behind it. His name is Archil Cheishvili (I did [a small profile about him for Forbes Georgia](http://forbes.ge/news/3719/The-Way-We-Work) last year). I'll think a bit more about it" 3,56505,2019-07-11T08:27:51.431Z,10326,1,49,48,1,0,0,64.8,56473,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,"I nominate @anon3554654177. Reason: both he and Fabrizio are interested in positive narratives of technical change, each for their own reason. They also come from very different backgrounds, with complementary knowledge. Rob, would you be interested? In this case, could you write a paragraph on anon2696444391 you would approach this topic?" 4,56507,2019-07-11T08:56:49.000Z,10326,1,50,49,8,0,0,100.0,56505,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Absolutely! Rationale: As partner in the NGI Strategy CSA I am pushing ‘identity’ (this is a personal communication,, not from the project) as the key enabler for a smart society for all based on solidarity between humans, machines and resources. About fifteen years ago I realized the agency was on the passport, and key identity management : the issuer, validator, in our case the national state. Because of various reasons I believe that model is gone and breakdown and fragmentation around the corner. There is still some vitality left I believe in the EU as a 500 million zone. In the Digital Transition the war is won in three battles. Europe already lost two, data and platforms. We are on the brink of losing the third: AI hitting Big Data building new services on combinations of temporary identities (chimeras of synthetic material and real people combined, or fully synthetic) that will create a seamless flow between: The BAN (body area network): e.g. the ambient hearing aide, the smart T-shirts, lenses, glasses, The LAN (local area network): e.g. the smart meter as a home interface, any consumer device, The WAN (wide area network): the bike, car, train, bus, plane The VWAN (very wide area network): the smart city as e-government services everywhere; no longer tied to physical locations or the agency and consent of individual people. It is highly likely that monitoring mechanisms will be built into devices themselves: for example, “if a guest is charging their electric car at a friend’s house, we should consider applications that will understand that the charge should appear on the guest’s electric bill and not that of the friend.” (Example from our Spranon2945747231r book Enabling Things to Talk: Designing IoT solutions with the IoT ... [https://books.google.be/books?isbn=3642404030](https://books.google.be/books?isbn=3642404030) anon2360576655 Bassi, ‎Martin Bauer, ‎Martin Fiedler - 2013 - ‎Computers ... Thorsten Kramp, Rob van Kranenburg, Sebastian Lange, Stefan Meissner ... that the charge should appear on the guest's electric bill and not that of the friend. ... 16http://[tools.ietf.org/id/draft-roycanon2696444391dhury-6lowappsip-00.txt](http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-roycanon2696444391dhury-6lowappsip-00.txt) tagged items or …) Now we should pool all skillsets and intelligences into building a 500 million zone architecture that creates the opportunities for building value with datasets and new services in a coherent, safe, secure and privacy preserving way in an EU governance that is techno-political.. The governance of that pragmatic cybernetics is something you/we should be focusing on, not on creating individual pathways for people to decouple from commercial services, in a time where society itself as we know it is a breaking point. I received an invitation (as founder of one of the largest IOT networks, [theinternetofthings.eu](http://theinternetofthings.eu)) to talk about Internet of Things from the GFF 'and the Italian Intelligence community', Transformational Technologies #4: Implications for an Expanding Threat Environment September 17-18, 2012 Rome, Italy. In the afternoon five breakout groups (senior intelligence, police and military, SOCA, CIA, MI6, Homeland Security...) came back with five scenarios of major threats: one was military, two were about DIY Bio and two were about the 'total breakdown of society', because of the inability of current institutions to deal with the digital. It was anon2373157426 crazy to see my own breakdown scenario of 2000 played back by institutional analysts. This is now 7 years ago. The trouble with the kind of thinking that I propose is that it has always been seen, from Cybersin by Stafford Beert to the current Chinese credit system, as a system of top down control, whereas I (and Stafford Beer himself) have always focused on the transparency that is brought by realtime sensor streams (albeit having its own bias of course) and the freedom entailed in power structures having to relate to blockchain type of incorruptible decision making instead of ego, raw power, chance, ideology, religion… We do not need solutions in which an individual tries to go more cloaked and cloaked into a fully commercial world no longer protected by the democratic state (regulate and fine become weaker and weaker tools in societies in economic crisis for over thirty years and missing out on the financial rewards because of not owning g the drivers, but regulating the repercussions like in GDPR) and the social middle as that is gone and going. Instead all our tools should be deployed in a systematic approach with a governance that like ICANN grew alongside the internet, and now should actualize around Internet of Things, a true Next Generation Internet means decision making is taken to that level. Of course this sounds like the Borg, the Matrix, the Chinese social credit system. But we, you, are too smart to buy that. We need an inclusive identity framework that is able to name, validate and build services on identities that will become a process between a device/controller of some kind (now smart phone), services (energy, mobility…) and the architecture 5G hardware for example). That capability should be European. It does four things: It explodes identity as a single unit: in this ides (Zenroom running as VM on a chip on ‘device’ on billions of SIM cards - in washing machines, lamps,, cars… and in 5G base stations and other infrastructure) turning identity into a process and allowing people to have thousands of temporary identities (just when they use a service) It gradually fades out Facebook, Google.. It creates European services through EU unified protocols that could be locally permission less deployed, thus winning us the third battle (as we don’t care where the ‘original’ data resides) It restores European dignity, a vital b belief in our agency to build meaningful and value creating infrastructures which is what (though)leaders like you should do." 5,56508,2019-07-11T09:16:47.406Z,10326,0,41,40,1,0,0,28.2,56473,anon2719157517,anon3828707713,@anon 6,56510,2019-07-11T09:50:48.974Z,10326,0,39,38,1,0,0,42.8,56473,anon924454449,anon3828707713,"I would say that technologies that have low barrier to entry have a higher likelihood to lead to an outcome of increased justice. If the barrier to entry is high, the productivity benefits will be leveraged more by the people who are able get over that barrier. If you look at the question from a bird's eyes view that seems to be the general outline. The two main barriers to entry from a general perspective seems to be either capital or knowledge. So all else being equal a technology that doesn't require specialized knowledge to be able to use, or require a big amount of capital to be able to leverage that technology you'll be able to disperse the productivity benefits of that technology to a broader populace, and more people would be able to gain the benefits of it. When it comes to the field of IT more specifically I think there will always be a certain barrier to entry because of the knowledge requirements to leverage ITs benefits. Yes, tools can be built that can be used by everyone, and in one way distributing the productivity benefits to more people. It will still be the people who have specialized knowledge which will in one way or another be gatekeepers. Given that today's economy is increasingly knowledge based, the one technology that could lead to increased justice would be teaching, or the transmitting of knowledge." 7,56557,2019-07-12T07:35:38.501Z,10326,1,38,37,1,0,0,62.6,56473,anon2945747231,anon3828707713,"and I just came across this twitter thread: https://twitter.com/sherrying/status/1149507266338410498?s=20 about this: https://icarus.kumu.io/fluxus-landscape > *Fluxus Landscape* is an art and research project created in partnership with the Center for the Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences (CASBS) at Stanford University with support from the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence. > > When I first started worrying about ethical problems in emerging technology, I would lament that no one else was paying attention. Until I met artist Sophia Brueckner, who taught me that the problem was more complicated than I had assumed. My concern deepened as I learned more about ethical problems in AI. Our policies could not possibly keep pace with technological advancements and would lead to greater inequality in society. I grew critical. Why were regulatory and other societal institutions not doing anything? Later, I met the CASBS director Margaret Levi, who informed me that many institutions were working on this – I just did not know them. > > The following map is an attempt to document and clarify my learning through a compositional research process. The map is curatorial and qualitative – not indexed and quantitative. Unlike the data scraped by computers and sorted by rules, the data within the *Fluxus Landscape* were gathered one by one and categorized through deep conversations. Both methods are biased. > > The map includes 500 nodes representing both allied groups and those who are in conflict with each other. As different as the communities represented in the map are, many still share the same question. What should we do? In this composition – like in all art – your experience is unique. Some may see a practical stakeholder map while others may see that they are not alone in their fears. Art and ethics share the same power: there are as many interpretations as there are minds. I hope this map will help you answer your questions. What will you do?" 8,56558,2019-07-12T07:46:22.135Z,10326,2,35,34,1,0,0,22.0,56557,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,@anon659222949 and @anon1753543892 she might be interested in taking part of the conversations here. Perhaps we can reach out to her? 9,56559,2019-07-12T07:59:00.618Z,10326,0,39,38,2,0,0,47.8,56558,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"and I shouldn't forget to tag the research team https://icarus.kumu.io/fluxus-landscape @anon3379761435 @anon2559300400: ![32|573x467](upload://3WzOJGJCT7Jr6Qf0uj67lVznkzO.png)" 10,56644,2019-07-14T10:59:54.365Z,10326,1,38,37,2,0,0,37.6,56473,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"I would love it if we could get [Abeba Birhane](https://twitter.com/Abebab) and [Cathy O`Neal](https://twitter.com/mathbabedotorg) to join us. Am already in touch with Abeba, she is super oversubscribed so I am pulling out the big guns, even trying a bribe consisting of almost home made Ethiopian food :)) Cathy, I have not yet contact - am struggling a bit with the neurowiring atm and finding it harder than usual to approach new people. Can anyone help?" 11,56649,2019-07-14T11:14:28.544Z,10326,1,39,38,1,0,0,32.8,56644,anon2945747231,anon3828707713,"I can look into contacting her tomorrow, finding an interesting in. Let me research her a bit anon2863106368ight." 12,56650,2019-07-14T11:19:22.985Z,10326,0,39,38,1,0,0,12.8,56649,anon3828707713,anon2945747231,thank you <3 13,56796,2019-07-17T07:24:24.830Z,10326,0,35,34,1,0,0,12.0,56473,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,ping @anon 14,57911,2019-08-13T12:39:21.709Z,10326,1,36,35,1,0,0,17.2,56558,anon1753543892,anon2945747231,"@anon2945747231, Reach out to whom? The author of the article?" 15,57921,2019-08-13T13:12:00.764Z,10326,0,34,33,1,0,0,41.8,57911,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,the artist/researcher of the AI piece? Sherry Wong 16,58993,2019-09-09T18:04:36.497Z,10326,0,33,32,1,0,0,11.6,56507,anon3828707713,anon3554654177,"Rob, thanks! - @anon1753543892 can I ask you follow up with Rob about setting this up?" 17,58994,2019-09-09T18:07:44.500Z,10326,0,32,31,8,0,0,46.4,56473,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,hi @anon 18,60243,2019-10-01T08:41:52.254Z,10326,1,33,32,2,0,0,36.6,56473,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"@anon2945747231 and @anon1753543892 - @anon Also, I contacted Abeba Birhane who is doing brilliant work spanning data ethics, embodied cognition and bias (see [this aeon article](https://aeon.co/ideas/descartes-was-wrong-a-person-is-a-person-through-other-persons) she wrote) . It would be very interesting to have a conversation between her and @anon2559300400 exploring anon2696444391 SSNA/ quantified social anthropology methods and tools can help surface and address biases that affect anon2696444391/which technological choices we make - and where possible, mitigating their consequences. Is this something you might be interested in @anon2559300400 and if yes, anon2696444391 could we go about making it happen? We have a bunch of different options to choose from spanning video chats, conversation threads on the platform all the way to organising an event at the RSA where I currently have a fellowship." 19,60246,2019-10-01T09:06:16.509Z,10326,1,32,31,1,0,0,46.4,56473,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"Ciao @anon3093654461 so the festival site will be ready to go hopefully tomorrow, but if you view with web browser you can check it out already here https://festival.anon1577251828.eu As you see above the content is now taking shape. @anon1753543892 will have the visuals for promoting the event in what, 4 days? So I guess it is time to set things in motion comms-wise with Digityser. We said I would do a presentation on October 10 to introduce the festival methodology - is this still on? and if yes, what materials do you need from me to promote it?" 20,60279,2019-10-01T12:23:13.270Z,10326,0,32,31,1,0,0,26.4,60243,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,Someone who would also be very interesting to engage is [Mounir Mahjoubi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mounir_Mahjoubi) - @anon 21,60387,2019-10-02T09:10:38.002Z,10326,1,31,30,1,0,0,46.2,56473,anon3708943593,anon3828707713,"Hiya, If you are still looking for people to join it might also be worth reaching out to: Mutale Nkonde (Berkman center) Vidushi Marda (NGO article19) Nikita Arghwal (Oxford Law) Fieke Jansen (Data justice PhD Cardiff Uni) Joris van Hoboken (Prof. at Brussels Uni) Seda Gurses (Prof at Delft Uni) They are relatively young scholars doing very interesting work! Cheers," 22,60390,2019-10-02T09:34:07.098Z,10326,0,29,28,13,0,0,70.8,60387,anon3828707713,anon3708943593,think you could put us in touch ( see here https://anon1577251828.eu/t/schedule-of-interviews-to-do-with-participants-and-content-contributors-ahead-of-the-festival/10971) 23,60624,2019-10-04T07:05:46.018Z,10326,1,32,31,46,0,0,286.4,56473,anon3835921950,anon3828707713,"timing-wise it’s great as the European Commission will come up with horizontal AI legislation (principles) in early 2020. Not an expert, but I reckon issues they will have to come to grips with could be * scope of the rules (what ‘AI’ systems should be covered, only top consumer/citizen-facing applications, or other/underlying infrastructure) * type of obligations (only transparency/documentation requirements?, what should they contain?) * How to differentiate, depending on scale (i.e. me building system affecting 10 people vs FB unleashing a new content ranking algorithm on a quarter of world population) and risk (system to distinguish which cat video I will be sanon2696444391n vs. decisions on employment, insurance, housing, predictive policing). Could it be an idea to look at case studies at the event, with these questions in mind? For case studies itself, AlgorithmWatch produces yearly reports looking at automated decision-making in Europe (Jan 2019 report, ‘Automating Society - Taking Stock of Automated Decision-Making in the EU’). UK Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation is also carrying out a review of positive and negative effects of automated decision-making, first interim results just out I think. Interesting examples could be insurance branch, or the case of Austrian labour authority using it to decide whom of the unemployed to help in finding a new job (criterion: efficiency narrowly defined, i.e. those already have highest chance to find a new job in the first place…). Apologies for lengthy post, but it’s my first here, so please cut me some slack" 24,60678,2019-10-04T12:49:36.484Z,10326,0,31,30,19,1,0,116.2,60624,anon3828707713,anon3835921950,"[quote=""anon3835921950, post:23, topic:10326""] horizontal AI legislation (principles) in early 2020. Not an expert, but I reckon issues they will have to come to grips with could be * scope of the rules (what ‘AI’ systems should be covered, only top consumer/citizen-facing applications, or other/underlying infrastructure) * type of obligations (only transparency/documentation requirements?, what should they contain?) * How to differentiate, depending on scale (i.e. me building system affecting 10 people vs FB unleashing a new content ranking algorithm on a quarter of world population) and risk (system to distinguish which cat video I will be sanon2696444391n vs. decisions on employment, insurance, housing, predictive policing). Could it be an idea to look at case studies at the event, with these questions in mind? For case studies itself, AlgorithmWatch produces yearly reports looking at automated decision-making in Europe (Jan 2019 report, ‘Automating Society - Taking Stock of Automated Decision-Making in the EU’). UK Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation is also carrying out a review of positive and negative effects of automated decision-making, first interim results just out I think. Interesting examples could be insurance branch, or the case of Austrian labour authority using it to decide whom of the unemployed to help in finding a new job (criterion: efficiency narrowly defined, i.e. those already have highest chance to find a new job in the first place…). Apologies for lengthy post, but it’s my first here, so please cut me some slack [/quote] Yes I think this makes complete sense. Would you have time to pick a couple of case studies you find especially relevant and post them here? In parallel what we do via the comms team is to ask the internet, and other participants in the workshop in for suggested case studies that we should include. And to get the conversation going around the three questions/challenges you outlined." 25,54637,2019-06-06T11:28:41.510Z,10326,1,49,48,1,0,0,79.8,56473,anon1732761404,anon3828707713,"It depends on the exact definition of justice, perhaps. The computerization/mechanisation of the public sector has largely been driven by the hope that logical government (deterministic decisions, given certain input deterministic output) will make society more ""just"" and ""equal"" (i.e. a computer does not have the social sensitivity to discriminate, for instance, and even when it does - for instance through statistical short-comings - we can normally measure and assess the discrimination that occurs). But we are now half a century in to computerization - has it worked? I think ""lasagna-style"" technologies, which are vertically separated as a matter of technology, are more likely to lead to an outcome of increased ""justice"". Because I think of justice as something which guarantees to individuals freedom to act - commercially and socially - and this freedom can only be obtained if market entry barriers are low, or if technologies lend themselves to a multitude of entities cooperating on different levels. I'd prefer, for this reason, WiMAX and Wi-Fi over LTE systems and cellular networks, and I am for this reason cautious about 5G. With my rudimentary understanding of Italian, the 15 proposals for justice would impact technology development - would they be advanced by technology development? I think governments across Europe - certainly in Sweden - are still very much stuck in the 1960s vision of computers-as-the-saviour-of-government-through-imposing-cold-hard-logic. I.e. the ""fairness"" our governments strive for is either being able to use technology against the governments' own citizens (to find ""cheaters"") or to have a ""government machine"" that is not able to distinguish the unique life-stories of either subjects (citizens) or staff (civil servants)." 26,54658,2019-06-06T15:33:36.387Z,10326,2,46,45,1,0,0,39.2,54637,anon3203746736,anon1732761404,Could you describe more what you mean by lasagna technologies? I have not seen that term before. 27,54733,2019-06-08T09:36:31.368Z,10326,1,47,46,1,1,0,49.4,54658,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:5, topic:10068""] what you mean by lasagna technologies [/quote] Layered?" 28,57239,2019-07-29T09:52:28.148Z,10326,2,42,41,1,0,0,83.4,54733,anon1732761404,anon3379761435,"Apparently I have imported a Swedishicism: http://www.urbanictarena.se/lasagna-model-pipes-lasagne/ The idea is, as Alberto alludes to, that you have technologies which are layered in the sense that each layer can stand on its own two feet, takes care of its own security problems, etc. For networked technologies this is a main departure from old-style telecommunications networks which were assumed to be deployed and operated by the same entity." 29,57240,2019-07-29T09:55:31.611Z,10326,0,41,40,1,0,0,28.2,54658,anon1732761404,anon3203746736,A much belated response in the thread continuation by Alberto. 30,57363,2019-07-31T08:57:58.388Z,10326,1,42,41,2,0,0,38.4,57239,anon3828707713,anon1732761404,"Hey, almost done with first skeleanon2863106368 draft of what we discussed." 31,57401,2019-07-31T21:41:54.613Z,10326,3,39,38,1,0,0,102.8,57363,anon1732761404,anon3828707713,"![connected_fridge|690x620](upload://peGqYj2L2YBCa2Wl3rOw16YCTKX.png) I'm working on these forms of conceptualisations of technologies with a view to illustrating /where/ and /who/ does /what/ and /anon2696444391/. The particular attachment concerns consumer worries with connected fridges - it's a sketch/draft. I was put in a pickle with the physical and datalink layers, because there's actually a bit of information transmitted already at/for the physical layer. But ok." 32,57402,2019-07-31T21:42:54.544Z,10326,0,35,34,1,0,0,42.0,57401,anon1732761404,anon1732761404,"the idea is to be able to put in where different features are/could be standardized, or perhaps even map to vendors/value chains. there's a universe out there waiting to be OSI:fied." 33,57410,2019-08-01T07:12:30.831Z,10326,1,36,35,1,0,0,17.2,57401,anon3828707713,anon1732761404,"Ok - do I understand correctly? For the purpose of this discussion/session we need to be anon2373157426 specific so as to have a set of ""case studies"". We pick a set of specific well documented stories/ incident where certain injustices manifested and map out the connections between the where/what/when/anon2696444391 of _technologies_ involved.....and the who/where/when/anon2696444391 of _decision making_ mechanisms or processes involved. The visuals you sent are a proposed way to approach/structure the discussion. Yes?" 34,57454,2019-08-01T21:51:15.570Z,10326,0,39,38,2,0,0,47.8,57410,anon1732761404,anon3828707713,"> For the purpose of this discussion/session we need to be anon2373157426 specific so as to have a set of “case studies”. We pick a set of specific well documented stories/ incident where certain injustices manifested and map out the connections between the where/what/when/anon2696444391 of *technologies* involved…and the who/where/when/anon2696444391 of *decision making* mechanisms or processes involved. Ah, sorry. I posted the picture because it looks nice (to lighten up the mood). On the stories we need to document, I believe it's easier to group stories by forum (_where_ an event takes place), since it is the nature of the forum that determines what the future courses of actions are. That said, OSI layer conceptualisations can be used to illustrate anon2696444391 different technologies relate to each other. Maybe a consideration for a later report? At the workshop stage focus could be on strategic issues more than graphics." 35,54747,2019-06-09T06:32:31.777Z,10326,1,52,51,1,0,0,50.4,56473,anon2619552108,anon3828707713,"Hi @anon3379761435, this is an interesting issue. P2P traffic had peaked to be 69% of total internet traffic in Germany in 2007 ( https://www.cse.wustl.edu/~jain/cse571-07/ftp/p2p/#study & https://ipoque.com/news-media/press-releases/2007/ipoque-internet-study-2007-p2p-file-sharing-still-dominates )... in 2019 anon2696444391ever, it fell to the neighbourhood of 5% ( https://torrentfreak.com/netflix-dominates-internet-traffic-worldwide-bittorrent-ranks-fifth-181116/ ). Similarly to make another example, despite promising radical decentralisation and the substitution of trust by algorithm-driven verification of claims, blockchains have all started meddling with mechanisms of centralised control, roughly since the 2016 DAO attack and consequent Ethereum fork, and today one sees permissioned solutions ( https://monax.io/learn/permissioned_blockchains/ ), editable (!!) chains ( http://www.global-engage.com/life-science/when-blockchain-meets-the-right-to-be-forgotten-technology-versus-law/ and https://medium.com/@anon It all seems to me to relate to anon2696444391 policies get informed by unknowns and believes, often transversal to the topic that is being deliberated about (e.g. P2P and the mistaken belief that sharing subtracts value to the creative industry -> https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2017/09/displacement_study.pdf ) ...this could be a good paper to read ahead of any effort to produce evidences for NGI -> https://link.spranon2945747231r.com/article/10.1007/s11077-019-09352-4 Are you calling Julia Reda on this?" 36,54750,2019-06-09T07:12:51.162Z,10326,1,47,46,1,0,0,64.4,54747,anon3379761435,anon2619552108,"Well, hello @anon2619552108! :slight_smile: Delighted to get your input – if we go ahead with this, I'll make sure you get a proper invitation. Your exact same point was made to me by @anon1732761404: Europe used to have a world leadership on P2P tech (Kazaa, Pirate Bay, early Skype...), but then it *regulated its own tech bleeding edge out of existence*. This issue deserves its own thread, but it does advocate taking a hard look at industrial tech policy in the EU... what do you think? I am not sure what Julia is up to these days. I heard she did not run for a second mandate, which I interpret as being fed up with the whole dance. Perhaps you have other information?" 37,54758,2019-06-09T09:28:47.849Z,10326,1,48,47,1,0,0,49.6,54750,anon2619552108,anon3379761435,"I agree we need to get deep into the industrial tech policies, and overall competitive strategy design process (an awful lot of ill informed ""me too"" rages in EU since a decade or two) inevitably including the issue of lobbying... and I agree this investigation would be a dignified activity on its own... In reason of Paul KT & Haddad C 2019 (the last link in my previous post) anon2696444391ever, I am not sure we can disentangle the two analyses too easily, since also your original enquiry was meant to inform future policy making... up for conversation about anon2696444391 to arrange the coordination of the efforts. Concerning Julia, no... I have the same news as you, I guess... but my understanding is that she is fed up with the political side and EU parliament... not with the entire topic... and once anyone is as deep in it as she is, I cannot bring myself to believe she can simply turn away... it's in her :slight_smile: Anyway a message would not hurt, if we were to go through with this... :angel:" 38,54882,2019-06-11T13:07:04.574Z,10326,0,46,45,2,0,0,19.2,54758,anon3379761435,anon2619552108,@anon2619552108 indeed! 39,60727,2019-10-05T12:40:05.578Z,10326,0,26,25,1,1,0,55.2,57401,anon3708943593,anon1732761404,"[quote=""anon1732761404, post:28, topic:10326""] http://www.urbanictarena.se/lasagna-model-pipes-lasagne/ [/quote] Please keep sharing these as you develop them @anon1732761404 - having visual resources (i at least finds) is very helpful for explaining anon2696444391 the Internet works, who is in involved, and what concerns/interests are!" 40,61423,2019-10-15T13:13:24.074Z,10326,1,27,26,1,0,0,15.4,56473,anon850704935,anon3828707713,"@anon3828707713 Do reach out to this woman - >https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrilloliliana/ She's interested to be a speaker or attendee and willing to share info in her AI circles." 41,61432,2019-10-15T13:37:11.172Z,10326,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,61423,anon850704935,anon850704935,"@anon3828707713 She's interested as well -> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinawunder/" 42,61445,2019-10-15T15:22:51.250Z,10326,1,28,27,1,0,0,30.6,60246,anon3093654461,anon3828707713,"Ciao Nadia, First of all sorry for the delay, been difficult days lately for me regarding my availability outside basic work duty. It is indeed time to launch the communication: Ideally I would need to create an event on www.digityser.org/events that would obviously point towards here to allow people to register the way you want them to be registered etc.. wanted : Banner image + description + Title of the event + date/hour (program format more or less) Regarding a pre-meetup on the 10th : do you want to reschedule this ? Our place is pretty much open for this but You need to pick a date because we have a bunch of events/hackathons this week & the next one that will take most of our time. Maybe the best would be to provide an invitation/concept about the event and we could invite all our contacts so that would avoid you to make a physical meetup just to share the format/methodology of the event ?" 43,61452,2019-10-15T15:43:32.341Z,10326,3,24,23,1,0,0,69.8,61445,anon3828707713,anon3093654461,"ok @anon850704935 can I ask you to coordinate with @anon1753543892 to get appropriate communication materials to @anon3093654461 for digityser's events website, as well as for posting on/via Digityser's social media/communication channels?" 44,61493,2019-10-16T08:57:20.809Z,10326,1,24,23,1,0,0,29.8,61452,anon850704935,anon3828707713,New person who's interested -> https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathalie-smuha-2aa0b071/ 45,61496,2019-10-16T09:12:53.694Z,10326,0,23,22,1,0,0,39.6,61493,anon3828707713,anon850704935,cannot contact people with whom I am not already connected @anon850704935 :) ask them to write to anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu ? 46,61556,2019-10-17T11:25:49.351Z,10326,0,21,20,1,0,0,24.2,61452,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,I need images of the main featured speakers that we have the right to use :) 47,61787,2019-10-21T09:24:30.465Z,10326,1,22,21,2,0,0,34.4,61452,anon3093654461,anon3828707713,"Meanwhile I'm going to create an event on our side with the info I gather from here. Registration link will be the festival registration page, is that ok ? Edit : https://digityser.org/events/anon1577251828-festival-workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them/" 48,61797,2019-10-21T09:58:12.665Z,10326,1,23,22,1,0,0,29.6,61787,anon3828707713,anon3093654461,yes 49,61856,2019-10-21T16:25:51.323Z,10326,1,22,21,1,0,0,44.4,61797,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"oh yeah, @anon3093654461 - @anon3835921950 wants to do a podcast interview at Digityser 2hrs before the event starts (is there some quiet room somewhere we could do it in?)" 50,62035,2019-10-23T09:00:06.608Z,10326,1,22,21,1,0,0,29.4,61856,anon3093654461,anon3828707713,"Definitely possible, yes we'll find the best place in the building for this to happen !" 51,62286,2019-10-25T12:42:33.677Z,10326,0,23,22,1,0,0,24.6,62035,anon3835921950,anon3093654461,"That's great, thanks a lot! :slight_smile:" 52,62481,2019-10-29T14:27:39.968Z,10326,1,24,23,2,0,0,49.8,56473,anon2003734003,anon3828707713,"Hi guys, I would like to join the workshop, but I'm not sure I qualify. My work only touches sideways on the world of AI. I currently help the Flemish Public Employment Service set up an open innovation program. There's lots of talk about AI in the air (the PES also has it own AI lab). There are big promises for AI to reduce inequalities on the job market by objective matching and data analysis. I'm often one of the more critical voices in the room, asking for caution and reflection. I want to join this workshop to learn, I don't think I'll have much to teach... Which I guess is one of the prerequisites for claiming a ticket? Some feedback would be appreciated :slight_smile: Kira" 53,62637,2019-10-31T11:43:23.728Z,10326,1,18,17,1,0,0,28.6,56473,anon2860100070,anon3828707713,"@anon3828707713 I am an AI professional and I would love to contribute to this as speaker. Is there still a place available for me? :) https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrilloliliana/ I have been in touch with Fil via LinkedIn. @anon850704935" 54,62640,2019-10-31T12:02:30.059Z,10326,2,27,26,1,0,0,35.4,62637,anon3828707713,anon2860100070,"Ciao and welcome - yes of course you can join us! The best way to get started is to read the personal introductions of other participants and leave thoughtful comments to help us move the thinking forward. You will find them here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you Then it would make sense for you to share a similar prost sharing your own experiences and reflections, including what you would like to explore with other participants in the workshop. If you would like to schedule an interview with another participant, I would suggest picking a few time slots that would best for you here: https://doodle.com/meetme/qc/ivSwRDQSjt Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions etc" 55,62641,2019-10-31T12:04:47.216Z,10326,0,25,24,14,0,0,90.0,62481,anon3828707713,anon2003734003,"Hey Kira, definitely yes. I think a good starting point is to read the posts by other participants, and leave thoughtful comments with your own reflections or questions around the topics. Then if and when you feel comfortable - posting a personal introduction with some thoughts around what you would like to dig deeper into based on what you have read so far. Both what others have posted, and where you can create your own introduction are found here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you" 56,63883,2019-11-12T13:27:38.548Z,10326,1,21,20,1,0,0,14.2,56473,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,@anon 57,63902,2019-11-12T16:34:48.229Z,10326,0,22,21,1,0,0,9.4,63883,anon2252645440,anon3828707713,"I am part of the Instadeep team as a Project Manager for the data science department in Tunis office :) @anon3828707713 @anon" 58,63914,2019-11-12T16:55:59.900Z,10326,0,23,22,1,1,0,24.6,62640,anon2860100070,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:54, topic:10326""] https://doodle.com/meetme/qc/ivSwRDQSjt [/quote] Hi Nadia, thanks for your reply! I saw Jean today, and she talks wonderful about you. I would love to meet you :slight_smile: I will post about my self on the link you shared. I tried to book a one-on-one call but there are no slots available now. Warm regards, Liliana." 59,64254,2019-11-15T14:22:17.776Z,10326,0,22,21,3,1,0,64.4,62640,anon2860100070,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:54, topic:10326""] https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you [/quote] Hi @anon3828707713, I have added part of my story here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-to-balance-the-needs-of-the-individual-and-the-collective-collective-intelligence-and-more/11559 And for this specific workshop, I could give a talk about AI as a person from the field. I studied at the Swiss AI institute, IDSIA, and I can tell a personal story about Google DeepMind, the AI company of Google. This was a startup of very good friends of mine from IDSIA. And this can serve as a way to create some 'panel' talks/discussions. Warm regards, Liliana." 60,65126,2019-11-22T11:14:42.861Z,10326,0,14,13,0,0,0,2.8,56473,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,A post was merged into an existing topic: [Were you at the AI & Justice workshop on 19/11? Share your notes and thoughts here!](/t/were-you-at-the-ai-justice-workshop-on-19-11-share-your-notes-and-thoughts-here/11694/4) 1,64984,2019-11-21T13:11:06.739Z,11690,0,16,15,5,0,0,73.2,64984,anon4157292050,anon4157292050,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Re:Web by Zenna Fiscanon4205961763 in Malmö on Sunday 24th of Nov **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** I would like to continue investing time in building relationships with the people that are around me. At the same time I would like to better manage relationships with long-distance friends since I have been neglecting that lately. I am also very happy that I started sewing again regularly and would like to keep that up. **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** The past year was rough but I finally let my interest guide my professional path and not just my private life. I‘ve also started using social media as a networking tool which has been very helpful. At the moment I am very willing to take risks and just go for it but I am afraid I am taking on too much at once and it eventually fail because I am not putting enough energy into each project. **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** I am very interested in internet studies and digitalization linked to the fashion industry and digitalization. I think meeting across disciplines can help to gain new perspective. I would like to learn from the other participants knowledge and more importantly their experience **name:** Alex" 2,65028,2019-11-21T16:37:25.702Z,11690,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,64984,anon1753543892,anon4157292050,"Welcome Alex! Ping @anon2682865457" 1,63641,2019-11-10T09:21:49.485Z,11469,1,20,19,27,0,0,204.0,63641,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"
I would like to weave together into a 150-300 word article and case studies that can help each one of us 1. Make sense of anon2696444391 to resolve the underlying tensions between acknowledging the socialecological costs of the tech industry...and findings ways to develop technological tools that help create conditions for a zero/negative carbon economy which offers accessible opportunities for everyone to build healthy, happy lives. 2. Figure out anon2696444391 each one of us can put the skills, resources and relationships we in service of making this happen. Not in a theoretical, pie in the sky scenario - but based on the practical constraints of our everyday lives right now. As @anon2559300400 puts it, this means we need to go beyond conversations in which we discuss the merits of various solutions or technologies. Rather it requires us to include more of our personal experience, motivations and examples in our stories, thoughts, ideas and project presentations and discussions. Our views on the topic are surely interesting, but knowing what brought each of us to start thinking about it and what shaped your ideas is what will enable us to not only connect but also to discuss and research on a deeper level! **What questions/dilemmas are you yourself struggling with right now? What do you think we should be asking one another and everyone we know, peer to peer, to help you firgure out a solution?** My own personal struggle is tied to anon2696444391 to live and work with others in a spirit of solidarity set against a backdrop of being an ethnic minority in Europe, a lifetime of moving around and the experience of anon2696444391 quickly things can fall apart due to shifts outside our direct control (read: war + health). I had a beautiful and free childhood in communities of expatriates from all over the planet who moved due to professional opportunities. All of them with tertiary education. A lot of this was spent in the middle east, more specifically the Gulf region. So a mix of people with professions that were fairly well paid, or filthy wealthy because well - the gulf. The situation was stable, very safe and free for children - school then home then playing outdoors with lots of kids and pretty much no supervision. While my own family is culturally, ethnically and religiously mixed - Our social circle was largely defined by being part of a tight knit North Sudanese community. The Sudanese are a communitarian people with strong ties to their country and regions of origin. My dad is from a region called Al Gezira. Farmers + Communitarian + Communist. Traditionally a thorn in the side of the political leadership in the capital. I hadn't realised just anon2696444391 influential this strand of my heritage is until the recent, still ongoing, revolution in the country. It's funny anon2696444391 these things can make you see where certain aspects of your person come from. Then Iraq invaded Kuwait. My Dad was running a research Lab at IBM and was doing something brainy at the University. Staff were warned in advance that something was happening, but it still came as a complete surprise. After a dramatic turn of events involving parents driving through barricades, a student of my Dad's offered their farmhouse as a refuge. Fastforward through a jouney that took us through Iraq, jordan and Egypt. We then moved to Stockholm, during what later came to be known as a decade of violent racism in Sweden. Because of the war in the Balkans an unexpectedly large number of people from former Yugoslavia sought refuge in Sweden, especially during the first years of the war. This happened at the same time as Sweden experienced worst recession in 60 years- It didn’t take long for things to turn ugly. Then as as we do now, we saw a hostile reaction to refugees and migrants. At it’s worst we saw people walking around with weapons using lazer- visors to terrorise and kill those who “look like immigrants”. The Swedish labour market at the time was, and still, is deeply shaped by people's social relationships. It is a small country that is notoriously difficult to really make your home in unless you have childhood friendships to rely on. But tech has always been a big place, especially when internet/digital was making it's way into the ecnonomy. I jumped on that train fairly early and that was my ""ticket in"". There is a much longer story within which my own is situated- but you get the idea, this mix between tight tight solidarity, and an environment of extreme hostility. I am painfully aware of the importance of having financial resources to get yourself and your family out of dangerous situations. And of anon2696444391 quickly a seemingly hospitable social environment can turn against you and make clear that you don't really belong/Can rely on protection. Others say that your best bet of surviving a difficult situation, e.g impending climate catastrophe, is being embedded in a web of nurturing relationships. **But anon2696444391 much can you rely on this web in a multicultural setting where people do not have the same strong ties to an ancient culture and land?** **And what does this mean for anon2696444391 you relate to the development and use of technologies?** **How do you balance the need for profiting from a company and caring for the needs of others?** All of this someanon2696444391 ties in to these discussions we are having. But I am at a loss for anon2696444391 to move forward wisely over the coming years. **So this is me. Any suggestions based on your own experiences?**" 2,63923,2019-11-12T17:56:17.610Z,11469,1,15,14,2,1,0,33.0,63641,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:1, topic:11469""] But anon2696444391 much can you rely on this web in a multicultural setting where people do not have the same strong ties to an ancient culture and land? [/quote] I am starting to feel that there is in a way its own culture emerging among those who do not have strong ties to an ancient culture or land, and that is the community you join when you keep moving around. In a way that is nice and helps you to quicker feel ""at home"" when you are in fact not by become part of this community of ""not at homes"" or keeping in touch with your old friends and contacts via many modern communication channels. And it is a chance to create a beautiful and welcoming culture at that and one that in my opinion can have even stronger ties, because we choose consciously with whom to stay in contact and when we need to search for new direct contacts in person where we end up. But it also means that we are creating a cultural layer that A: makes it harder for us to relate to the experiences of those who are not part of it and B: might never really live in the culture of the place where we happen to end life but rather mainly stay in this international culture of people moving. You probably have a very strong web of very different and carefully chosen people you decided to stay in contact with from a large pool of people you met new in different places and situations and that might be a richness in itself and a web to rely on." 3,63926,2019-11-12T18:40:48.468Z,11469,1,14,13,1,0,0,27.8,63923,anon294806887,anon1753543892,"I don't anon2373157426 get anon2696444391 common ties to an ancient culture and land are fundamentals for trust, or at least not more than trust in others whose paths you cross on a different territory - that might be new for them too, not just for you. I understand deep wiring, but also that choosing a home and a tribe is a conscious choice - you can have one, two, or more places where are you invested in. You can also choose your people to be your home, your land. Especially when it comes to fighting for technology and social good in a global world, you can have more in common with people across the globe than with your neighbors, yes. So then why should the land be a denominator at all in this trust formula?" 4,63929,2019-11-12T19:58:49.797Z,11469,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,63926,anon3828707713,anon294806887,"There is a brilliant novel called [seveneves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seveneves) in which groups have to select who amongst them is to survive a cataclysmic event and be transported to the future in a kind of ark. The way it is organised is for different peoples to select one of each gender which the people consider to carry the best of them. So as to ensure that these attributes and stories are carried into a new civilisation. It came to mind yesterday during the Scifi Economics Lab. Both when Cory spoke of fully automated luxury communism and when Kirsten spoke of new narratives. I would argue that a not insignificant part of narrative building is tied to place. It's easy to disregard the deep ties that people have to a place and the stories tied to it... How these narratives can carry people through rough times due to a sense of being a community of fate. The rituals, again tied to place and people, which everyone of the place has internalised often have the role of weaving together communities. The older they are, the more thoroughly they are grounded in your person - because of childhood memories etc. A solid common ground. It's all good and well to talk of larger causes, or your choice of tribes. But anon2696444391 does that work when your people include family members in different parts of the world? How strong is the sense of common fate as a motivator for sticking together when conflicting loyalties and multiple stories arise? When you are part of an ethnic group and community of fate, yes you have some feud going on with your neighbours but when militia come for you or attempt to displace you, it's a common fight. Also because you have relatives in common etc. How this is linked to doing tech for good? 24 hours a day requires focus. What technosocial developments that it makes sense to put your energy fighting for will depend on whom you are fighting for. And what rights you can rely on - e.g anon2696444391 large is the probability that if you are arrested you will be kicked out of a country? Do you focus on introducing and building capacity around use of certain technologies for the local good? Are you fighting nationally to get Microsoft out of your educational system. Or are you lobbying against things like mass surveillance at the transnational scale? This what comes to mind. but I am happy to be proven wrong with some examples from different people's experiences..." 5,63958,2019-11-13T02:55:31.561Z,11469,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,63641,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"I see all three of you having valid viewpoints. Tied to place and deep roots, or people and place of your own choosing, and a global community of nomads. All are going on simultaneously." 6,63992,2019-11-13T14:38:47.380Z,11469,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,63958,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"I personally have been more a part of the two latter ones: I belong to a community I chose to be with, none of whom I really knew before. And I have been a nomadic community person. As for deep roots, being from California, nobody's roots go that deep unless you are Native American, but I am more tied to my region than I would otherwise be because I have family here that needs my care. This doesn't anon2373157426 get to the heart of what Nadia is saying though, because I do not have the kinds of experiences she describes. Which are fascinating...would love to hear more." 7,64743,2019-11-19T18:26:30.287Z,11469,2,11,10,1,0,0,62.2,63641,anon2559300400,anon3828707713,"I strongly relate to your childhood -- I'm also a mixed kid, of a Mancunian mum and Palestinian dad, both who left home under less than ideal circumstances (or in my dad's case, born a refugee and never really had a home country). I grew up in a tight-knit community of other first gen/immigrant kids in the USA. And my dad also did research at IBM and a university ;) Being in the USA after 9/11 created a similar kind of hostile environment for our Arab family. The problem with this notion of 'creating identity' for yourself is that, as @anon3828707713 alludes to, you can't always choose your tribe or territory, especially when those around you reject your attempts to belong. I think the most interesting thing that I've found is the people I end up relating to most aren't those that share one of my ethnic backgrounds, but other hyphenated people. Most of my friends are first-generation and/or mixed. And they understand an identity formed both through presence and absence -- of 'homeland', of family ties, of belonging. So I get the 'nomadic ties' thing, but I think it has more teeth than just collecting people and places you like-- sometimes, you don't have an entry ticket. Or you get in and find you only have partial access. And some identities you can't just shed, unless you want to change your name and your skin. Diasporic identity is always complicated -- and in the Palestinian case, 'communities of fate' is an apt phrase. One of my favourite poets, Mahmoud Darwish, writes on it a lot. He wrote a poem about talking with Edward Said that speaks a lot to the questions we're discussing here -- it's a conversation between the two of them about identity. Said thinks you can make your own identity out of two worlds (more free form) and Darwish sees deeper ties that bind and hold us, whether we like it or not (you can see this in his other poems). The important thing to note is that both of them articulate what @anon3828707713 is talking about in terms of an emplaced identity tied to justice and tied to conflict. Both Said and Darwish, in their other works, ask questions about anon2696444391 identity can inform what we fight for, and anon2696444391 displacement affects the things we care about and the way we imagine the communities that share our struggle. Palestinian diasporic identity sheds a lot of light on this issue, since a lot of other Arab communities have turned their back on the Palestinian struggle, or only support it in name. And diasporic Palestinians outside of the MENA have a different lived experience than those exiled in other MENA countries, or those in refugee camps, or those still living in Palestine under occupation. Where we are located changes the ways we figure and conceptualise justice and struggle; affects the energies we have to struggle; and shapes what kinds of futures are imaginable. It's too long to paste the whole poem, but here are some excerpts: New York / November / Fifth Avenue... There, on the doorstep of an electric abyss, high as the sky, I met Edward, thirty years ago, time was less wild then . . . We both said: If the past is only an experience, make of the future a meaning and a vision. Let us go, Let us go into tomorrow trusting the candor of imagination and the miracle of grass/ * * * New York. Edward wakes up to a lazy dawn. He plays Mozart. Runs round the university's tennis court. Thinks of the journey of ideas across borders, and over barriers. He reads the New York Times. firites out his furious comments. Curses an Orientalist guiding the General to the weak point inside the heart of an Oriental woman. He sanon2696444391ers. Chooses his elegant suit. Drinks his white coffee. Shouts at the dawn: Do not loiter. * * * On wind he walks, and in wind he knows himself. There is no ceiling for the wind, no home for the wind. Wind is the compass of the stranger's North. He says: I am from there, I am from here, but I am neither there nor here. I have two names which meet and part . . . I have two languages, but I have long forgotten which is the language of my dreams. I have an English language, for writing, with yielding phrases, and a language in which Heaven and Jerusalem converse, with a silver cadence, but it does not yield to my imagination. * * * What about identity? I asked. He said: It's self-defense . . . Identity is the child of birth, but at the end, it's self-invention, and not an inheritance of the past. I am multiple . . . Within me an ever new exterior. And I belong to the question of the victim. Were I not from there, I would have trained my heart to nurture there deer of metaphor . . . So carry your homeland wherever you go, and be a narcissist if need be/ The outside world is exile, exile is the world inside. And what are you between the two? * * * Myself, I do not know so that I shall not lose it. I am what I am. I am my other, a duality gaining resonance in between speech and gesture. Were I to write poetry I would have said: I am two in one, like the wings of a swallow, content with bringing good omen when spring is late. * * * He loves a country and he leaves. [Is the impossible far off?] He loves leaving to things unknown. By traveling freely across cultures those in search of the human essence may find a space for all to sit . . . Here a margin advances. Or a center retreats. Where East is not strictly east, and West is not strictly west, where identity is open onto plurality, not a fort or a trench/ * * * He loves a country and he leaves: I am what I am and shall be. I shall choose my place by myself, and choose my exile. My exile, the backdrop to an epic scene. I defend the poet's need for memories and tomorrow, I defend country and exile in tree-clad birds, and a moon, generous enough to allow the writing of a love poem; I defend an idea shattered by the frailty of its partisans and defend a country hijacked by myths/ * * * —Will you be able to return to anything? My ahead pulls what's behind and hastens . . . There is no time left in my watch for me to scribble lines on the sand. I can, anon2696444391ever, visit yesterday as strangers do when they listen on a sad evening to a Pastorale * * * —So, nostalgia can hit you? Nostalgia for a higher, more distant tomorrow, far more distant. My dream leads my steps. And my vision places my dream on my knees like a pet cat. It's the imaginary real, the child of will: We can change the inevitability of the abyss. * * * —And nostalgia for yesterday? A sentiment not fit for an intellectual, unless it is used to spell out the stranger's fervor for that which negates him. My nostalgia is a struggle over a present which has tomorrow by the balls. * * * —Did you not sneak into yesterday when you went to that house, your house in Talbiya, in Jerusalem? I prepared myself to sleep in my mother's bed, like a child who's scared of his father. I tried to recall my birth, and to watch the Milky Way from the roof of my old house. I tried to stroke the skin of absence and the smell of summer in the garden's jasmine. But the hyena that is truth drove me away from a thief-like nostalgia. —Were you afraid? What frightened you? I could not meet loss face to face. I stood by the door like a beggar. How could I ask permission from strangers sleeping in my own bed . . . Ask them if I could visit myself for five minutes? Should I bow in respect to the residents of my childish dream? Would they ask: Who is that prying foreign visitor? And anon2696444391 could I talk about war and peace among the victims and the victims' victims, without additions, without an interjection? And would they tell me: There is no place for two dreams in one bedroom? * * * It is neither me nor him who asks; it is a reader asking: What can poetry say in a time of catastrophe? * * * Blood and blood, blood in your country, in my name and in yours, in the almond flower, in the banana skin, in the baby's milk, in light and shadow, in the grain of wheat, in salt/ * * * Adept snipers, hitting their target with maximum proficiency. Blood and blood and blood. This land is smaller than the blood of its children standing on the threshold of doomsday like sacrificial offerings. Is this land truly blessed, or is it baptised in blood and blood and blood which neither prayer, nor sand can dry. There is not enough justice in the Sacred Book to make martyrs rejoice in their freedom to walk on cloud. Blood in daylight, blood in darkness. Blood in speech. * * * He says: The poem could host loss, a thread of light shining at the heart of a guitar; or a Christ on a horse pierced through with beautiful metaphors. For the aesthetic is but the presence of the real in form/ In a world without a sky, the earth becomes an abyss. The poem, a consolation, an attribute of the wind, southern or northern. Do not describe what the camera can see of your wounds. And scream that you may hear yourself, and scream that you may know you're still alive, and alive, and that life on this earth is possible. Invent a hope for speech, invent a direction, a mirage to extend hope. And sing, for the aesthetic is freedom/ * * *" 8,64823,2019-11-20T11:02:11.910Z,11469,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,64743,anon2559300400,anon2559300400,"@anon659222949, you might like this poem too." 9,64958,2019-11-21T10:02:49.431Z,11469,0,9,8,1,0,0,36.8,64743,anon3828707713,anon2559300400,"It's beautiful. Many years ago i wanted to write a history textbook based on personal family histories of people I know and care about. Each one would tell their family history in all directions as far as they can reach through family stories archives, asking everyone they know what they know. Then piecing it together ""chronologically"" as an alternative textbook based on stories and subjective interpretationsstory what happened in our worlds." 1,64014,2019-11-13T17:35:38.252Z,11514,1,13,12,9,0,0,82.6,64014,anon425414391,anon425414391,"I live in Brussels, work in Delft, and have strong connections to Berlin where I lived before. In my day job I’m an academic at the university, which means that I do research. I just joined the faculty at Delft University of Technology. The many strands of research I do are driven by the question “anon2696444391 can we do computer science differently?” The path towards it has, on the one hand, been by working on privacy enhancing technologies: if information and communication technologies come with associated risks and harms— for example, they enable a certain kind of surveillance — anon2696444391 can we use the same technology to protect people from the surveillance, or anon2696444391 can we design that technology differently. This kind of research requires, a very interdisciplinary approach, looking at both conceptions of privacy and surveillance, and also looking at what communities need. Most recently, I’ve started working on online services, studying them also as a way to sanon2696444391 the ways in which software industries have changed. In my current work, I’m trying to conceptualize anon2696444391 software is developed today, what kind of political economy software companies are functioning in, and anon2696444391 that affects the kind of systems they develop. I then tie this work to what this means for computer science and anon2696444391 we can do computer science differently. Outside of my day job, I work with artists and activists and civil society in Brussels. I’ve been working with a feminist artist collective, called ConstantVZW. They do a number of project and organize different events around free software, artistic practice and collective digital practices. For example, they are currently having a work session on “collective conditions”, which focuses on thinking about anon2696444391 to deal with the way in which collectivity and technology is imagined They invite participants to imagine protocols of care, alternative futures, differences etc. that are layered on top of the protocols that drive current day services, that could allow our collectivities to exist in the extractive socio-technical world that we currently live in. The collaboration with Constant and other groups is an important part of my work: I work with these different communities as a way to think about and develop methodologies for a different computer science, a different technology, or a different life together with technology. This work builds on previous engagements regarding migration, gender and anti-racism in Europe, and digital rights in Turkey. Roots I was born and raised in Turkey. I already tried to go abroad when I was just a child. M family didn’t really have the means for such a wish, but I was always searching for possibilities to go abroad. And part of it was because I wanted to study international relations. If I had stayed in Turkey, I would become an engineer, because I was very good at math and sciences. But at that time, I loved math, but I was sure I didn’t want to be an engineer. I managed to go abroad. I went to the US. I was there for five years, and then I got a scholarship to go to Germany. I stayed in Germany for 13 years. But someanon2696444391, math and engineering did not leave me. So, I decided to combine them. My undergrad was in international relations and mathematics. In my final report before graduating I looked at the way in which game theory was used during the Cold War. John von Neumann, among other things a famous computer scientist, actually believed that it would be rational for the US to do a nuclear strike first, i.e., he believed in first-strike. He bolstered his argument using mathematics, specifically, game theory, in order to rationalize and deem “objective” a very devastating political position. As a young person interested in international relations and at home with mathematics, I was very intrigued by the use of mathematics that I, at the time, also thought was absolutely neutral and objective in the pursuit of devastating imperial politics. Maybe some of this interest was due to the time my family and I spent in Sofia, Bulgaria when I was a kid. Bulgaria then was a communist country. As a kid, I was anon2373157426 impressed by communism vis-a-vis anon2696444391 Turkey was doing at the same time. We were there because my father was appointed the Turkish military attaché. Turkey was and kind of still is an ally of the US. This had consequences for our life in Bulgaria, and in a sense, the Cold War really colored our lives. Growing up in the cold war and, much later, going to the US and seeing the US framing of the same war forced me to try to grasp what the nuclear arms race was about and anon2696444391 we got there? My field of study helped me understand it better. Later in my life, when I became interested and involved in the feminist critique of computing and mathematics, I came to understand better the many ways in which mathematics is not neutral. People believe numbers are neutral, or that mathematical concepts or abstractions don’t have political relevance. However, every time you use a mathematical language, let’s say to model the world, you have to make some assumptions. The numbers may make it seem as if things expressed in formal languages are neutral, but in fact — we see again and again — that this is not the case. Prisoner’s Dilemma’s Problems The prisoner’s dilemma, a commonly used example of a game used in game theory, was subject to much research at the RAND Corporation, a US military think-tank. In the prisoner’s dilemma, two prisoners can snitch on each other with punishments distributed in such a way that if any or two players snitch they are worse off. The objective was to demonstrate that “rational beings” might prefer not to cooperate even if it is not in their self-interest. One of the main researchers involved in developing theories around this game was John Nash. The legend goes that he and his colleagues asked secretaries at the RAND Corporation to play the game. But there was a glitch: the secretaries would cooperate instead of choosing for themselves. So, Nash simply dismissed them, calling them unfit subjects of the game. It was the same game, the Prisoner’s Dilemma that was later used to rationalize that it would be better if the US would strike first. The story around Prisoner’s Dilemma is good example of anon2696444391 the model makes assumptions about humans being selfish and always after maximum gain, an assumption that percolates through economics, social choice theory etc. The game, used as a model of the world and our behavior in it has a lot of appeal. It is a simple model— with lots of assumptions folded into a very simple model. Once you have such models running, you can start making a lot of statements about the world. You can then build on top of these models, build systems that manage life at scale. But with that, you also expose a lot of people to the potential violence that comes from these assumptions. Linking Politics and Computer Sciences I got a scholarship and moved to Berlin to study computer science. To be honest, it was more of an economic decision. A lot of my friends from college had moved to Silicon Valley during the first tech-bubble at the end of the 90s. I was self funding and I was on students visas that had run out. So I thought, okay, maybe I should study computer science as a way to get a job, earn money and apply for a visa to go back to the US. In Berlin, I started working with feminist computer scientists. During my study, I focused on security and privacy. That work led me to meet people like Andreas Pfitzmann, a cryptographer who had moved into the field of privacy enhancing technology. They were coming up with new theories of security. For example, they argued that the objective of a computer scientist is not to secure the system, but to build systems that secure the interests of the different actors who are using and are affected by that system. And that really appealed to me. I became interested in the question related to the different factors of stakeholders to a system and anon2696444391 they have different security interests. That’s what we should be enabling and not protecting systems for their own sake. That’s anon2696444391 I got into privacy technologies. This was also politically very interesting. A lot of security comes from the military domain. Businesses employ security as a way to secure the assets of the company. So, by realizing we should be securing different stakeholders, we were able to start acting on security and privacy in a very different way. Privacy was often in juxtaposition to security: it was about protecting the users from the service providers themselves. You would see the user needs instead of “assets” as the driving force of your designs. That is anon2696444391 I got to the general question in my research: is there another computer science possible? Let’s say a computer science that doesn’t assume that our job as computer scientists is to secure assets of companies or governments, but one that secures and protects the needs of users and their environments. A changing technical landscape I only was back in the US again between 2013 and 2016. When I talked with developers there, I noticed that the way I was taught Software Engineering at the University had completely changed and, basically, was no longer relevant. Let me try to explain what the differences were. Until the end of the 90s, it was very typical that software came in a box, which included floppy disks or CD ROMs that contained a copy of the software that you could install on your personal computer. This box was the product of a very specific way to produce software as a product using “waterfall methodologies”. In waterfall methods, you start with the requirements from the clients, once you have those, you go to your developer team and start turning those requirements into a specification and a design of a machine to be developed. This whole process was slow, like one or two years, and after that you would emerge and pass what you developed back to the client. You would test it with the client to see if it worked. And, ideally it all worked and you were done. Or, for example with Microsoft, every two to three years a new release of the operating system would be offered. They would go through a similar cycle for each version, and come back in 2-3 years with a new version of the operating system, or other software like Microsoft Office. Once it was ready, you would release the code and put it on a disk to get sold. Once code was released, changes were difficult, so that release date was a big moment and the end of a production cycle. Today, we do not buy boxes, but open up a browser window to access most software. We access Facebook, Google search or Google Docs, and a host of other “services” instead of installing them on our computers. With services the code is on a server. The user connects to the server to get the functionality. This is what happens with a web browser. This subtle shift has completely changed anon2696444391 software is produced and anon2696444391 the software industry functions. As a result, the political economy of these companies has transformed, turning them into very different kinds of investment objects. The last five years I have been trying to understand anon2696444391 the shift has enabled different kinds of software engineering processes, in which developers don’t close themselves up for two years and come back with some software, but you can incrementally and continuously develop software as a service. As users we notice the difference in many ways. When you’re using an app, it doesn’t function when you’re offline, because most of the code is somewhere else. Since a release now means releasing to a server and not to a packaged box, the developers have the ability to constantly update and incrementally develop the software. And since most user interactions are also communicated to the server, the developers can observe users’ behavior and tweak the design to get better results. With this feedback loop in place, the industry can now optimize software so that they capture and manipulate user behavior in a way that is aligned with business interests. For example, an app might give three or four functionalities to their users, they will then continuously improve on those functionalities. It might be a feature or it might be a butanon2863106368, or it could be the ability to make a call. And they constantly refine that feature based on the feedback they get from anon2696444391 the user uses the service. If you compare Microsoft Office on your personal computer, back then Microsoft didn’t have that information, they had anon2488317424 clue what users were doing with it — except when complaints bubbled up on online discussion forums or on support lines. Compare that with Google docs, Google can watch every click, holds all user documents, and can capture all the desirable and undesirable ways in which users interact with their service. Service providers can improve the software using this feedback, and in the process also optimize users behavior towards a certain direction. You can orient the users towards the interests of the company. And this is anon2696444391 I started to understand that we are no longer looking at information and communication technologies, but we’re looking at optimization systems. These are systems that are optimizing features depending on user behavior, and optimizing that behavior based on the interest of the company for the extraction of value. So, my collaborators like Martha Poon, Carmela Troncoso, Bekah Overdorf, Joris van Hoboken and others have been asking: if the systems are no longer about information, collection, and knowledge — which comes with associated problems of surveillance — but these systems are about optimization, what are their associated problems? And anon2696444391 do we protect the users and their environments? The Hidden Truth of Google Maps And Other Apps Many of us use Google Maps, or Google-owned Waze, which allows you to beat traffic. If you’re on the freeway, and there’s a traffic jam, Waze can recommend an alternate route. Waze then will say “Okay, get off the freeway, I’ll push you through the surface roads, so that you can get from A to B faster.” In doing so, they’re claiming to optimize the time to travel for the users. But what they’re also doing is that by optimizing your path by putting you through surface roads, they are actually causing more congestion. What they’re doing is putting more traffic onto roads that cannot deal with that kind of congestion. If only a few users do this, they are doing well. But if a lot of users start doing this, you actually increase congestion for everyone. This is something traffic engineers have called the price of anarchy. Waze basically keeps its users, by promising them the ability to optimize their path. Time to travel from A to B. It optimizes all of its services, so that the users are happy and if the user base grows, it has more location data from people, which can then be used to build new services and overall, keep investors happy. In services like Waze, the app is the product of layers and layers of managerial and mathematical forms of optimization. And, at the same time, the app helps optimize asocial selfish driver behavior while congesting surface roads, increasing congestion overall, causing extra traffic expenses for municipalities that now have to deal with hundreds of cars using small roads, increasing accidents, etc. Waze and other optimization systems do not “know” things, but sense the world and give information to users in order to co-create new geographies and behaviors for the extraction of value. They maximize the extraction of value by externalizing costs onto others, like non-users and their roads and cities. Waze is very useful in sanon2696444391ing anon2696444391 optimization systems function in the world, and in demonstrating the externalities they produce. My collaborates and I are trying to wrap our heads around these optimization systems: anon2696444391 do they function? What are their externalities and anon2696444391 can we protect users, non-users and their environments from them? We have an initial list to say, optimization systems typically: favor optimal users, don’t care about non-users, don’t care about their environmental impact, externalize the costs of errors and experiments, etc. Let me explain what I mean by the latter: you can experiment with services in a way that you couldn’t with shrink-wrap software. For example, the Waze app: maybe there’s a road near a congested freeway that might be an interesting alternative. However, Waze doesn’t have any users going down that road, so they can’t capture if this road is congested and good to recommend. To find out, they send some of the users down these roads that they don’t have enough sensory information about. Let’s say they don’t want to risk it with their “favorite” users, so they may prefer to recommend this route to users that are less optimal for their business. The route may turn out well, or turn out to be congested or blocked, a risk externalized onto that selected user. These are examples of methods of exploration and experimentation that allow service providers to optimize their services, while externalizing risks and costs onto users. I want to be careful here and not fold everything under optimization, because, then we might as well talk about capitalism rather than optimization, but I think these are new technological practices that deserve their own critique. At the same time, it looks a lot like capitalism, too. There is something about the way in which the services are applied in places where they are expeted to bring return on investment, leaving behind many places. Only when these companies are pressured to expand their markets, do they start deploying their services elsewhere. However, it may not be the same quality, or like Facebook did in Myanmar and Bangladesh: without any support for the local languages. It has to do with the logic of extraction, of value driving, anon2696444391 you deploy services. Don’t Call Them AI Accidents When we started this work on optimization systems and their externalities, and we’re not sure if we should call these risks and harms externalities. When looked at AI safety papers and we realized their authors call these harms and risks “accidents”. We decided not to follow in their steps. These are not accidents. These are deliberate ways of scaling technologies to extract value, while externalizing certain costs onto others. In fact, a lot of the technologies are externalizing risks onto other people. Let’s take, Uber: normally, you would pay people for the time they work. And now you basically pay people if there are customers. This means that you externalize the risk of not having customers on to individual workers. What you offer them in return is that you will make an optimization system that will give them enough information, so that they can judge when they’re going to take that risk. Uber tells its drivers there will be more customers between 3pm and 5pm. The system is also very attuned to their price optimization. Basically, Uber is constantly putting their drivers into a situation where they are provided with information, so that they can manage their risk. This is anon2696444391 Uber is designed to work. Having seen many examples like thiswe intentionally moved away from calling these negative occurrences ‘accidents’. There is something to be criticized in our work, which is that we assume that this is all very deliberate. And we’re talking about organizations with thousands of people, where sometimes the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing. There are conflicts internally, different power games within the institutions etc. But, take auanon2863106368omous cars as an example: for them to function, you have to remove everything that has a lot of uncertainty from their way. I’m seeing a lot of research now where they’re like, “Okay, anon2696444391 can we still maybe have people in the picture? And the answer is we can profile them all the time. We can constantly monitor people and their behavior and give them control when they fit our expectations and models of risk.” Basically, what they’re imagining is that auanon2863106368omous cars can only exist if the infrastructure continuously monitors everyone around those cars, and provides agency to those people based on continuous behavioral analysis. None of this is an accident. This is a plan. I think there’s also another story to be told, which is that Cloud services are a natural progression from the move from shrink-wrapped software in a box to services as we have them now. Some argue services lead to centralization and concentration of computing power, which is optimized to serve all these different services. That’s why we now have Amazon Web Services or Google Cloud, or even the great pivot of Microsoft from being a software company to a cloud company. So, we could say that service architectures pool the clouds to us. But you can also turn that story around and say, the cloud is a promise of the software industry to investors, that they can get a lot of people onto the cloud. They should invest in it. In fact, cloud services are fast growing investment objects. Seen this way, auanon2863106368omous cars are a great way to fulfill the promise of the clouds. In other words, the clouds and their investors are pulling on auanon2863106368omous cars. Given these developments, calling these risks and harms and control infrastructures accidents can only happen if we ignore the whole political economy of software industries. This doesn’t mean that there are no accidents, right? There are accidents. But, I think we have to be very careful not to fall into this idea that they just don’t know what they’re doing. Public Institutions and Tech Injustice I don’t in particular study public institutions, but I have been following the discussions professionally around algorithmic discrimination and fairness, and anon2696444391 concerns around discrimination arise for public institutions. For example, I have followed from a distance a proposal for a ‘lie detector’ AI to be piloted on European borders. They are proposing that this service will help optimize the surveillance at the border and the management of flows. Another example I have heard about is from the Austrian Employment Agency: they are deciding who of the currently unemployed is likely to reenter the workforce in order to only offer those access to re-training. This can be said to be a proposition for optimizing the social welfare state. You can imagine that all of these services have been sold, and all of these technologies have been developed, with the idea in mind that these institutions can cut costs and be more efficient at the same time, the main concern being that they may make unfair automated decisions with discriminatory effects. This is a very narrow view of the problems that can arise when optimization systems are applied in the public sector. The concern about automated decision with discriminatory effect misses the point that a border system is already a very racialized and very discriminatory system. With regards to social welfare, especially unemployment systems are most likely to impact people with low economic resources, and a good portion of that is likely going to be immigrants. People quickly made the conclusions that border control could be discriminatory or make mistakes. Similar to the Austrian example, there are claims that if you are an immigrant, or a woman with a child, the systems reduces your chances of getting access to resources to re-enter the employment market. Here we see the trouble with the systems, because they are already racialized and discriminatory systems of population control. That they’re discriminatory is not just at the level of the algorithm, but the whole system. The fact that it’s optimizing over that population is already very problematic, because it’s going to optimize with respect to somebody’s understanding of what is optimal. The discriminatory effect is just an additional factor, but it’s not the main factor. How can government agencies who employ AI start making claims about fairness, when they’re in themselves problematic institutions. I work in the Netherlands currently, where people have been optimizing the infrastructure for a long time, such as traffic optimization. But they think about anon2696444391 to optimize the infrastructure for everyone, having in-depth discussions about anon2696444391 to do it in a fair manner. Companies like Waze do not officially join the infrastructure planning. They offer services to citizens that use that infrastructure, going through the backdoor, de facto redefining the social welfare function of those infrastructures. These services are putting into practice a new definition of what it means to use roads optimally. In the process, they are no longer optimizing the infrastructure for everyone, but doing so their users and their bottom line. Basically, every time we apply optimization systems to public agencies or infrastructures, we are redefining the social welfare function of these agencies, and changing the fabric of society. There’s currently very anon2488317424 discussion about whether we want this model. Instead, we have public discussion that is overly focused on algorithms, automated decisions and data flows. Discussions about anon2696444391 to improve algorithms or control data flows does not address anon2696444391 optimization systems are changing the way in which our infrastructures should be governed, or anon2696444391 our resources should be allocated. There’s currently a run for AI. There’s all this inevitability and urgency around it: “If we don’t do AI, then China and the US will. So we need to do AI.” On a cynical day, one could imagine this is a huge fraud scheme to transfer wealth from some parties to others in the name of innovation while changing our governance structures. At the same time, the academic and civil society discussion is focused on data and algorithms. But we really need to open up a discussion about what it means to use optimization systems in managing all aspects of life. The optimization systems we look at are based on a utilitarian logic. They come with very specific economic models. We need to discuss whether this kind of utilitarian model is the only model for resource allocation. And when it is not the right model, then we need to look at what would be better? As far as I know, which is anon2488317424, until the end of the 60s, economic models and social choice theory predominantly assumed we are selfish agents trying to maximize our gain, and they proposed systems that could optimize over everybody’s gains. Utilitarian models have been subject to much critique. Optimization systems bring utilitarian logics back in vogue, but with the addition that they optimize resources in different domains in line with profit interests. I think in that sense, optimization systems, or machine learning, or AI propose a very specific model, and it’s a very narrow model to organize allocation of resources. Given anon2696444391 anon2488317424 attention has been paid to these issues, it is really time to move beyond data and algorithms, and to focus on the forms of governance these technologies are brining and whether they fit with our imagination of anon2696444391 we want to govern our societies? Currently things are the other way around: technology companies are redefining forms of governance and proposing optimization as the only way to organize resource allocation. To succeed, these companies backdoor into the world through users. They use investment money to disrupt existing markets and outrun competitors. If and when they become the last ones standing, it may be too late to have the discussion whether we want the models of life that they propose and implement. **Burning Question** The push for AI is basically marketing for a financial boost for creating a computational infrastructure based on optimization systems that govern all aspects of life. Do we want this infrastructure? How can we resist it, engage it, and ensure it serves people and their environment, and not the other way around?" 2,64427,2019-11-17T21:44:17.252Z,11514,0,9,8,0,1,0,31.8,64014,anon425414391,anon425414391,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:1, topic:11514, full:true""]" 1,64666,2019-11-19T12:09:14.015Z,11639,0,8,7,2,0,0,26.6,64666,anon2552557649,anon2552557649,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Workshop on inequalities in ai **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** Read and write **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** Power **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** Research **name:** Joris" 2,64673,2019-11-19T12:32:51.268Z,11639,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,64666,anon1753543892,anon2552557649,"Welcome! Great to have you here! Could you tell us a bit more about yourself and anon2696444391 your work, ideas or motivation relate to the workshop?" 3,64729,2019-11-19T17:20:14.313Z,11639,0,3,2,1,0,0,5.6,64673,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"Yes - what did you mean by ""power""?" 1,64374,2019-11-16T17:30:15.760Z,11587,0,9,8,5,0,0,41.8,64374,anon301517243,anon301517243,"i'm David and work as a software developer [edit]: joined for the https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-berlin/10769 **What is a burning question that drives your work?** How a social network platform could look like if we disregarded the usually dominant factor of time entirely and focus on ""other ways"". **How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way?** i have been working on a POC in my freetime and one tricky thing is coming up with a sound product - i'm on it. I also want to focus more on finding collaborators and getting feedback from users. **Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward?** Lack of time, money, interest **What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?** I love collaboration and starting 2020 one day of the week will be my collaboration day." 2,64391,2019-11-17T09:25:56.617Z,11587,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,64374,anon1753543892,anon301517243,"Hello @anon301517243, we are looking forward to you as a collaborator here :). Could you maybe also tell us if and if yes which of the Festival events you are planning on attending?" 3,64710,2019-11-19T15:14:34.081Z,11587,0,6,5,2,0,0,11.2,64391,anon301517243,anon1753543892,"updated topic: joined for the https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-berlin/10769 but am looking forward for future collaboration in general @anon1753543892 thanks for the warm welcome" 1,64324,2019-11-16T08:46:48.409Z,11574,0,5,4,4,0,0,36.0,64324,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"![Edgeryders%20Platform%20Featured%20Content%20Banners%20(12)|690x345](upload://hBxzwxMLe4gmprA531rR9wRWMku.png) ## With a background in human rights and policy, Corinne Cath-Speth worked as a policy officer for a human rights NGO in London before coming to the Oxford Internet Institute and the Alan Turing Institute to pursue her PhD. Her research focuses on human rights advocacy efforts within Internet governance, with a broader interest of anon2696444391 human rights NGOs are responding to the new (and old) challenges raised by emerging technologies. **In working with human rights activists, @anon3708943593 saw that digital technologies - like social media - can give the plight of activists more visibility, but that often these same technologies entrench existing power inequalities and biases.** She became interested in studying what happens when activists try to change the infrastructure of the internet itself, rather than simply use it. A number of well-known human rights organizations like the ACLU and EFF, actively do so by contributing to Internet governance fora. She found that these organizations are welcome and can operate in these spaces with relative ease, given their open and multistakeholder nature. **At the same time, she also saw that while getting the tech “right” is an important part of the puzzle of human rights advocacy in the digital age, it is also a narrow frame through which to understand the broad spectrum of social concerns raised by networked technologies.** anon3708943593’s work in Internet governance also led her to consider human rights advocacy in AI governance, as AI systems are raising a host of questions regarding privacy, safety, anti-discrimination and other human rights. One of the problems with developing AI advocacy programs is that many of these systems are developed by private companies, so it is difficult to gain access to their technology to examine and understand it. Many NGOs are therefore calling for the regulation of AI systems, but are facing pushback, with companies arguing that it hampers innovation. Yet, it is this same “innovation” that encourages many governments to deploy AI systems. **A drive for “innovation” for innovation’s sake is particularly concerning when it encourages governments to step into technologies that they don’t fully understand or even need.** Obviously, a lot of human rights NGOs have been worried about these various dynamics for a while and are consistently raising their concerns— sometimes by bringing in academic work to sanon2696444391 some of these issues. Human Rights Watch, for example, has a great program as does Amnesty International, Privacy International and Article 19. Several of the largest human rights NGOs are focusing on issues of AI systems and bias. But they’re also forced to play whack-a-mole as the application of AI systems becomes more common. > ""How to focus your resources? Which companies and applications are most concerning? Which solutions most tractable and comprehensive? Do we need sectoral guidelines, or do we need guidelines which focus on impact? Do we need self-regulatory ethics frameworks or hard data protection frameworks? All of the above? These are the issues I see a lot of NGOs grapple with and are questions I hope to discuss with you on this platform."" **Participate in the conversation with Corinne here:** [What does the future of civil society advocacy look like, given the prevalence of these digital technologies and their impact on the work that civil society is currently doing?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-the-future-of-civil-society-advocacy-look-like-given-the-prevalence-of-these-digital-technologies-and-their-impact-on-the-work-that-civil-society-is-currently-doing/11118/16) *Join our Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them. Registration: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu](https://register.anon1577251828.eu/?fbclid=IwAR2p4qeCEFBa7ScLs45hyNhVz8nqFTDua9laZEsZAU7_MXtBRSwE-XIebC4)* *More info: [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60?fbclid=IwAR0D5mgENhCQ_8ov0TlYTSZInLdut5zhqSLhwU9gFUykowcfvlVgd7nnXyw)*" 1,64379,2019-11-16T18:44:46.642Z,11590,0,11,10,3,0,0,17.2,64379,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"The current crisis in European countries is driven by the paradox that we have the technology to create equality, but instead it is producing an unprecedented concentration of knowledge and power in very few hands. This must be addressed by putting political pressure on the issues. **How can we move beyond a one-size-fits all approach to new internet technologies in public administration?** Failure to do so breeds resentment as it deprives people of the most important thing - human connection and a sense of being recognised - which breeds intolerance, division and a loss of trust in democracy. Fabrizio Barca is exploring anon2696444391 effective civic organisations can be, not just in advocacy work but in taking action to shape services in local areas. With a varied background in banking and treasury and more recently inequalities and justice, Fabrizio Barca previously worked at the EU and now with a civic organisation called the Forum for Inequality and Diversity. Through his participation in the workshop on AI & Justice, Fabrizio hopes to gain even more understanding through discussing the topics with a mix of people from different backgrounds. Meet and discuss with Fabrizio at the workshop: 19/11, 6pm: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu/](https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fregister.anon1577251828.eu%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0yZoRxfES2cMymhWwYsdqIH5mShpUIpWUCNXXc82lUWv8gvtC6g9O0DXk&h=AT0FVFNB3BwKEZOC6UVeK4PcMrPsUtCBvVvc_iusLUZScFuemWVm6k75urLJgavF9tB41bBmM-L3W-iUEunZzoe6i2kmAVqFzyTO1UXpUmlDpkZaRIELcDCc5_75jeJIaK3DIP-m9gfQ8p5mNcSYmMcnwADEW-7O0_nbdbT0TawsRq4QLpHHWkmkCoolJnkiCR4EyAd1jF83K_Vqj7PjeLfY5FbJMdiV5ozJmsG5XxvzqCaSBdJUCQjOgWrJRaA4beeQiIne-o3sxaIqX6Q79gvu-x8GyBRvG2jdBjvzQD7gwch6Gt5e3TryynDemk1L1ytv38MAhZSaxfR31MnM616iKpaMS32PmwKn7mM5Hs1hQh1SJT1yLaqvn_kXr9QC95dJgf8sDoGYWT24Ww_VcuJwON12xhvm8DMv3-IqF2_nMJyNK3QUOlNLS66wmxAFrIfa3FrB3MldRsnqiVdteA69mreed8qxweQa8YQYUzsSOC0s3kOc4kEU5hDLKwEsNlTgBr0sPs5LMjCoj2lzisjBCVKHph92lPJmTqhn9cWDsvg1v8i7B0ywScAg32DswjjVFwBmxm-IJdBLDI1jYacqoYvN15E59NJNQU03txRUgaoiPWa7LfqE7E7Q) **Learn More :** [Conversation with Fabrizio Barca Founder, Forum on Inequalities and diversity I Ex General Director, Italian Ministry of Economy & Finance](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-conversation-with-fabrizio-barca-founder-forum-on-inequalities-and-diversity-i-ex-general-director-italian-ministry-of-economy-finance/11545/2) *Join our Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them. Registration: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu](https://register.anon1577251828.eu/?fbclid=IwAR2p4qeCEFBa7ScLs45hyNhVz8nqFTDua9laZEsZAU7_MXtBRSwE-XIebC4)* *More info: [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60?fbclid=IwAR0D5mgENhCQ_8ov0TlYTSZInLdut5zhqSLhwU9gFUykowcfvlVgd7nnXyw)*" 1,64265,2019-11-15T15:22:32.662Z,11560,0,14,13,6,0,0,62.8,64265,anon3758359099,anon3758359099,"**Please mention the name / topic of the event you want to participate in, and the city or town where it is happening.** Hackathon with anon1577251828 **Work, hobbies, family life, leisure, pleasure... Which activities from your present life would you like to keep doing? Which things would you like to never do again? Which would you want to start doing/do more of?** Like to keep doing: exchange thoughts with people / do experiments / work with body movement / work with patterns and mind perspectives / design thinking / cultural topics Never do again: compete with others / do a cold Data lab;) **What is an a question or desire that drives you or your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?

By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development:** I like to learn languages as well as cultural perspective on general living. I’m interested in bodywork and art therapy as well as the psychology of the mind. I love group dynamics and the role of an Individuum. Lots of questions towards these fields **Great, now that you've made it easier for us to introduce you to the others – start to think about the topic and purpose of the event itself. Why do you want to participate in it? How do you feel the topic touches your work or life at the moment / in the future?** Since I am in a moment of transformation when it comes to my work and living I want to attend different kind of workshops, to see, anon2696444391 people do things - anon2696444391 I like to do things. To explore **name:** Vanessa wulff" 2,64268,2019-11-15T15:41:44.308Z,11560,2,13,12,1,0,0,17.6,64265,anon1753543892,anon3758359099,"Hello @anon3758359099 great to have you here! Are you going to the Hackaanon2863106368 in Berlin, Tunis or Medina? :)" 3,64311,2019-11-16T06:59:05.170Z,11560,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,64268,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,or Cairo even :)) 4,64321,2019-11-16T08:43:21.717Z,11560,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,64265,anon1753543892,anon3758359099,So many exiting Hackathons! 5,64333,2019-11-16T09:49:43.769Z,11560,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,64321,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,I know :innocent::blush: 6,64418,2019-11-17T18:36:54.489Z,11560,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,64268,anon3758359099,anon1753543892,to Berlin:) 7,64422,2019-11-17T18:50:34.248Z,11560,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,64418,anon1753543892,anon3758359099,Great! ping @anon3554387720 1,64381,2019-11-16T18:47:34.978Z,11592,0,6,5,2,0,0,11.2,64381,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"#### Alberto Cottica @anon3379761435 had been hoping that ehnography-at-scale via SSNA could integrate, if not replace, the indicator paradigm, but after trying to get people to assess their own willingness to pay for, say, avoiding the extinction of some type of frog in Madagascar, or lowering the PM10 content by 10%, he found convincing evidence that we could never trust our results He refers to James Scott’s convincing argument for scalar indicators being propelled by the modernist ideology that underpin the coalescing of modern states. This works for states but not so much for people. Modern states have created a demand for scalar indicators, but this has more to do with their thirst for administrative order than with a drive to understand what is really going on. **Participate in the conversation with Alberto here:** [On assessing impact, and what Edgeryders could do in that department](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/on-assessing-impact-and-what-anon1577251828-could-do-in-that-department/10708) *Join our Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them. Registration: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu](https://register.anon1577251828.eu/?fbclid=IwAR2p4qeCEFBa7ScLs45hyNhVz8nqFTDua9laZEsZAU7_MXtBRSwE-XIebC4)* *More info: [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60?fbclid=IwAR0D5mgENhCQ_8ov0TlYTSZInLdut5zhqSLhwU9gFUykowcfvlVgd7nnXyw)*" 1,64380,2019-11-16T18:46:26.619Z,11591,0,5,4,3,0,0,16.0,64380,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"A PhD researcher at Oxford Internet Institute, @anon2594087572 studies the intersection of gender-based violence and emerging technologies. Her work focuses on issues of trust, gender and sexual politics, and the double-edged role of technology in facilitating connections but also targeted harassment. While organising against campus violence she personally experienced cyberharassment and lack of support from law enforcement. More resources have become available since then, but we need to change anon2696444391 we conceptualise these issues and fundamentally change the design of the platforms. She helped to form a cross-campus network that grew to a nonprofit organisation, Know Your IX. The space requires better structures in place to support mental health and protection from cyberharassment to reduce burnout. Research sanon2696444391s again and again that women, especially women of colour, tend to self-censor and reduce their visibility in order to survive - it is crucial we put more safeguarding in place to protect them. Digital systems designed to facilitate disclosures, collect evidence and automate reporting of sexual assault are attractive to institutions because of their efficiency - and to some extent to victims as they are perceived to be objective and neutral. However, these systems have bias encoded in them. The designers are working with their own understanding of sexual violence, which may not match victims’ experiences. Some victims don’t have the data literacy or English level to work the systems, which could compound their trauma. Further, the pressure to report is encoded into the design of these systems, but this is a misguided emphasis on a single optimal solution, which is not appropriate for all victims. De-emphasising reporting and focussing on “small data” driven by relationship building can create a structured conversation which is rich, insightful and telling. Rather than asking anon2696444391 tech can be fixed for the better, the more urgent and important question is: who and what are we overlooking when we turn to tech solutions? How can we support practitioners in anti-violence space, like social workers, jurors and judges, and advocates, with data and tech literacy, so that they have control over anon2696444391 they interpret and act on data? **Participate in the conversation with Kate here:** [Can tech design for survivors? How sex, violence, and power are encoded into the design and implementation of data/AI-driven sexual misconduct reporting systems](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/can-tech-design-for-survivors-anon2696444391-sex-violence-and-power-are-encoded-into-the-design-and-implementation-of-data-ai-driven-sexual-misconduct-reporting-systems/11193/6) *Join our Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them. Registration: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu](https://register.anon1577251828.eu/?fbclid=IwAR2p4qeCEFBa7ScLs45hyNhVz8nqFTDua9laZEsZAU7_MXtBRSwE-XIebC4)* *More info: [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60?fbclid=IwAR0D5mgENhCQ_8ov0TlYTSZInLdut5zhqSLhwU9gFUykowcfvlVgd7nnXyw)*" 1,64319,2019-11-16T08:41:27.852Z,11571,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,64319,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"#### A conversation with Marco Manca @anon2619552108 is an interdisciplinary researcher in mathematics and informational systems with an educational background in medicine. He founded the [SCimPulse Foundation](http://www.scimpulse.org/about-us/), which he still directs, and is also part of several scientific organisations and commissions, including the working group of NATO for human control over auanon2863106368omous systems. Marko feels there is a lot of excitement about AI and a push to accelerate its implementation widely - but that it is crucial we consider AI a “nifty tool” to use with awareness, rather than an impeccable “leader” that must not be questioned. AI systems are only as good as the data inputted and the questions asked of them by humans. This means that the conclusions returned are not free of human biases, but rather potentially amplify them. Essentially, as they are used now, AI systems simply return the same results as humans would, just “faster and dumber.” This is a concern because of the rush to implement AI, particularly in the field of medicine. In medicine there is an expectation of precision, but with so many biological variables, the more precise you get the more you diverge, so large scale information potentially becomes less valuable. For example, in the 1970s, various tools were introduced to help doctors predict the likelihood of certain diseases, but attempts to refine these profiles over the years have hit a barrier. Just as you could play a lottery with 1/1000 odds every day for a thousand days and still not win, there is a crucial difference between “the destiny of the person in front of you right now, the destiny of every similar person.” His argument is not that we should not be developing AI, but that we must consider anon2696444391 we develop and implement it and anon2696444391 we contextualize the information it gives us. If we simply scale up the information we work with now without being informed about the risks, we risk causing serious damage. **Participate in the conversation with Marco here:** [What does it take to build a successful movement for citizens to gain control over when, anon2696444391 and to what use automated systems are introduced and used in society?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-it-take-to-build-a-successful-movement-for-citizens-to-gain-control-over-when-anon2696444391-and-to-what-use-automated-systems-are-introduced-and-used-in-society/11075/2) *Join our Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them. Registration: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu](https://register.anon1577251828.eu/?fbclid=IwAR2p4qeCEFBa7ScLs45hyNhVz8nqFTDua9laZEsZAU7_MXtBRSwE-XIebC4)* *More info: [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60?fbclid=IwAR0D5mgENhCQ_8ov0TlYTSZInLdut5zhqSLhwU9gFUykowcfvlVgd7nnXyw)*" 1,64323,2019-11-16T08:45:07.622Z,11573,0,6,5,2,0,0,11.2,64323,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"#### A conversation with Peter Bihr @anon3086952555 co-founded ThingsCon community which advocates for a responsible, human-centric approach to the Internet of Things. Smart Cities, where the digital and physical meet and where algorithms actively impact our daily lives, is an important focal point of his work. He proposes reframing the Smart City discourse (currently dominated by vendors of Smart City tech) away from the technology and more towards a focus on societal impact. What better urban metrics can we apply to cities increasingly governed or shaped by algorithms? Such an analytical framework would be the key to unlocking a real, meaningful debate. Smart City policies must be built around citizen/digital, human rights, and with emphasis on participatory processes, transparency and accountability. At the most recent ThingsCon conference, Manon den Dunnen shared her experience of unintended horrific consequences of tech going wrong when police officers take phone numbers of both victims and suspects, and then Facebook algorithms then suggest one another as friends. Further, several studies have sanon2696444391n policing and/or justice related algorithms were found to have racist data points (including some deemed illegal by courts yet remained in the data sets). And the policing algorithm in NYC measures effectiveness by such simplistic metrics that created incentive for officers to report selectively (for example, the systemic intimidation of rape victims to change their charge from rape to a more minor offence). **Participate in the conversation with Peter here:** [How can we put humans/citizens first in our smart city policies?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-we-put-humans-citizens-first-in-our-smart-city-policies/9878/40) *Join our Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them. Registration: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu](https://register.anon1577251828.eu/?fbclid=IwAR2p4qeCEFBa7ScLs45hyNhVz8nqFTDua9laZEsZAU7_MXtBRSwE-XIebC4)* *More info: [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60?fbclid=IwAR0D5mgENhCQ_8ov0TlYTSZInLdut5zhqSLhwU9gFUykowcfvlVgd7nnXyw)*" 1,64325,2019-11-16T08:49:03.776Z,11575,0,6,5,3,0,0,16.2,64325,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"#### A conversation with Justin Nogarede @anon3835921950 works for the Foundation for European Progressive Studies, was previously at the European Commission focussing on competition law and European regulations. As a trainee in the application law unit at the European Commission, he became aware of the issues involved in ensuring member states comply with EU law, finding that often there isn’t the staff or resources available to enforce directives - for example, the directive on data protection has existed since 1995, but was not widely enforced. Justin now focuses more on data governance, and is finding that as new digital infrastructures are rolled out, they are driven by narrow efficiency concerns and are not accountable. Looking into these new infrastructures is a great opportunity to make the system more participatory and accountable - but we have to take it. Feeding existing data into AI systems can create problems - for example, when predictive policing has been sanon2696444391n to drive more officers into wealthy areas, as data sanon2696444391s a higher rate of arrests in those areas. Data therefore creates a self-reinforcing loop. Further, digital systems often rely on a binary logic, which healthcare and social problems simply don’t fit. The key problem is that data is a simplification of the real world. Further, some AI systems may support a conservative bias, such as when they are used to predict which offenders are most likely to reoffend. Regulation of digital infrastructure would be a step in the right direction, and the argument that it would stifle innovation is weak - technological advances must make sense and make lives better. It may not be possible to have 100% compliance, but more involvement of public authorities (even at local level) would be a good step, as would more transparency over anon2696444391 these technologies function. Why is all this innovation not channelled into ways for people to live a better life? **Participate in the conversation with Justin here:** [Why is all this innovation not being channeled into ways for people to help them live a better life?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/why-is-all-this-innovation-not-being-channeled-into-ways-for-people-to-help-them-live-a-better-life/11443/3) *Join our Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them. Registration: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu](https://register.anon1577251828.eu/?fbclid=IwAR2p4qeCEFBa7ScLs45hyNhVz8nqFTDua9laZEsZAU7_MXtBRSwE-XIebC4)* *More info: [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60?fbclid=IwAR0D5mgENhCQ_8ov0TlYTSZInLdut5zhqSLhwU9gFUykowcfvlVgd7nnXyw)*" 1,64326,2019-11-16T08:50:29.924Z,11576,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,64326,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"##### A conversation with Hugi Asgeirsson Earlier this year, @anon659222949 was in Berlin for the Data Terra Nemo conference, focussing on decentralised web applications which are hosted without traditional servers, allowing for a lot of interesting applications. They were inspired by the human-centric community that has grown up around ‘gossip’ protocols like Scuttlebutt. It seems to be forming a playground where new and radical ideas can be tested and implemented. The original developer of Scuttlebutt, Dominic Tarr, describes his MO as: “not to build the next big thing, but rather to build the thing that inspires the next big thing, that way you don’t have to maintain it” and this seems to have set the anon2863106368e for Scuttlebutt itself. One of the core elements of Scuttlebutt is that users can host data for other people on the network without being directly connected to them. This has the positive effect that users in countries where internet usage is highly restricted can connect via other users - though on the other hand, this also means that users could unwittingly be hosting information they would rather not propagate. There have been instances of the Norwegian alt-right using Scuttlebutt to communicate. Scuttlebutt has been working to address this issue but solutions are imperfect so far. The bottom line is that distributed systems such as Scuttlebutt are both democratising and empowering and they come with a whole new set of possibilities and challenges. **Participate in the conversation with Hugi here:** [Data Terra Nemo: First report & Scuttlebutt](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/data-terra-nemo-first-report-scuttlebutt/9928/4) *Join our Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them. Registration: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu](https://register.anon1577251828.eu/?fbclid=IwAR2p4qeCEFBa7ScLs45hyNhVz8nqFTDua9laZEsZAU7_MXtBRSwE-XIebC4)* *More info: [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60?fbclid=IwAR0D5mgENhCQ_8ov0TlYTSZInLdut5zhqSLhwU9gFUykowcfvlVgd7nnXyw)*" 1,64328,2019-11-16T09:13:01.886Z,11577,0,4,3,2,0,0,10.8,64328,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"#### A conversation with Oliver Sauter There is an accepted “law” of entrepreneurship: in order to build something valuable, you have to be ten times better than what already exists (as proven by Google + which arguably had better some better features than Facebook but failed to tempt people away). Why does this law exist and what can we do to change it? @anon What is holding us back? The way companies make money for one: the 2nd quarter of 2018, Facebook lost $120bn (billion!) in stock value within 48 hours, the biggest loss of any company in history. The reason: It posted the least growth since its founding, while still making 5BN in profits the same quarter and growing by 42% since the last year. Secondly data and social lock ins creates counter incentives for interoperable formats which would make it easier for users to migrate between services or integrate them, Breaking this dynamic would require tackling the problem from multiple angles: namely allowing users to move freely between services, creating economic models that reward quality of service rather than simple growth, and ideally adopting Open-Source software to allow companies to build on one another’s work. WorldBrain (dot) io is building open-source software in an attempt to enable incremental innovation, the foundation of which is Memex - an open-source privacy tool. Interoperability is baked deep into the core of Memex, it is fully open-source and WorldBrain (dot) io has no stock value, so is entirely focussed on building a sustainable service. **Participate in the conversation with Oliver here:** [Startups’ grand illusion: You have to be 10x better than whats there](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/startups-grand-illusion-you-have-to-be-10x-better-than-whats-there/10221/14) *Join our Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them. Registration: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu](https://register.anon1577251828.eu/?fbclid=IwAR2p4qeCEFBa7ScLs45hyNhVz8nqFTDua9laZEsZAU7_MXtBRSwE-XIebC4)* *More info: [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60?fbclid=IwAR0D5mgENhCQ_8ov0TlYTSZInLdut5zhqSLhwU9gFUykowcfvlVgd7nnXyw)*" 1,64322,2019-11-16T08:43:49.459Z,11572,1,7,6,6,0,0,36.4,64322,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"#### A conversation with Seda F. Gürses With an undergrad degree in international relations and mathematics, Seda is now an academic at Delft University, focussing on anon2696444391 to do computer science differently - utilising a interdisciplinary approach to explore both concepts of privacy and surveillance, and also looking at what communities need in face of increasing use of AI, or what she calls logics of optimization in digital systems. She was led into this field of study by her fascination with the politics of mathematics and the biases contained within seemingly neutral numbers. The technological landscape has changed enormously in the past few years — from static software saved on a disk that was only updated every once in a while, to software and apps that are held on services and so constantly updated and optimised. In addition to existing concerns around privacy and security, a whole host of new harms and risks have arisen that requires the attention of computer scientists to find other ways of securing and protecting users, non-users and their environments. The negative consequences of prioritising optimisation over user experience can be seen in Google Traffic and Waze, which sends users down surface roads to avoid freeway traffic. They don’t care that this may have an adverse impact on the environment and local communities, or even that it actually may cause congestion over all. Further, Uber has optimised its system to outsource risk to its workers: instead of paying people for the time they work, Uber offers them a system that tells them when they are most likely to get customers, casting ``labor optimization’’ as paying people only for when they pick up a customer, and externalizing all further risks associated with the job, e.g., waiting time, sick leave, accidents, onto drivers. When this kind of tech injustice is applied to public institutions such as borders and social welfare systems,optimization logic and injustices the discrimination embedded in the very systems mean we are changing the fabric of society without having the necessary discussions as to whether that’s something we want to do. We need to stop focusing so much on data and algorithms and pay more attention to the forms of governance we want these technologies to have. It is crucial that the computational infrastructure boosted by all the talk and funding invested in “AI""serves people, not the other way around. *Join our Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them. Registration: [https://register.anon1577251828.eu](https://register.anon1577251828.eu/?fbclid=IwAR2p4qeCEFBa7ScLs45hyNhVz8nqFTDua9laZEsZAU7_MXtBRSwE-XIebC4)* *More info: [https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/60?fbclid=IwAR0D5mgENhCQ_8ov0TlYTSZInLdut5zhqSLhwU9gFUykowcfvlVgd7nnXyw)*" 2,64335,2019-11-16T10:36:16.000Z,11572,1,6,5,1,0,0,26.2,64322,anon425414391,anon2945747231,"Hey Inge, this looks great, here are some suggestions for changes. I did not hear from you anon2696444391 you would like me to edit the longer version. Let me know and I will get to it later in the afternoon! Thanks again for pulling all of this together. s. > > > [anon2945747231](https://anon1577251828.eu/u/anon2945747231) > Community Journalist > > > November 16 > #### A conversation with Seda F. Gürses > With an undergrad degree in international relations and mathematics, [@anon425414391](https://anon1577251828.eu/u/anon425414391) is now an academic at Delft University, focussing on anon2696444391 to do computer science differently - utilising > an > interdisciplinary approach to explore both concepts of privacy and surveillance, and also looking at what communities need in face of increasing use of AI, or what she calls logics of optimization in digital systems. > . They were led into this field of study by their fascination with the politics of mathematics and the biases contained within seemingly neutral numbers. > The technological landscape has changed enormously in the past few years — from static software saved on a disk that was only updated every once in a while, to software and apps that are held on services and so constantly updated and optimised. In addition to existing concerns around privacy and security, a whole host of new harms and risks have arisen that requires the attention of computer scientists to find other ways of securing and protecting users, non-users and their environments. > The negative consequences of prioritising optimisation over user experience can be seen in Google Traffic > and Waze > , which > send users down surface > roads to avoid freeway traffic. They don’t care that this may have > an adverse impact on the environment and local communities, or even that it actually may increase congestion over all > . Further, Uber has optimised its system to outsource risk to its workers: instead of paying people for the time they work, Uber offers them a system that tells them when they are most likely to get customers, casting ``labor optimization'' as paying people only for when they pick up a customer, and externalizing all further risks associated with the job, e.g., waiting time, sick leave, accidents, onto drivers. > > When this kind of tech injustice is applied to public institutions such as borders and social welfare systems, the optimization logic and injustices > embedded in the very systems > means > we are changing the fabric of society without having the necessary discussions as to whether that’s something we want to do. We need to stop focusing so much on > data and algorithms and pay much more attention to > the forms of governance > we want these technologies to have. It is crucial that the computational infrastructure boosted by all the talk and funding invested in “AI""" 3,64336,2019-11-16T10:46:35.798Z,11572,1,5,4,1,0,0,11.0,64335,anon3828707713,anon425414391,"I think it was mostly to to ensure that it ([the longer version](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/seda-f-gurses-researcher-on-conceptions-of-privacy-and-surveillance-in-online-social-networks-requirements-engineering-privacy-enhancing-technologies-and-identity-management-systems/11514/2)) accurately represents what you were saying, and making edits where you feel is needed to convey what you mean." 4,64337,2019-11-16T11:00:10.000Z,11572,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,64336,anon425414391,anon3828707713,"Thanks, Nadia. I will get to this alter in the afternoon. Need to run to an event now. Thank you! s." 1,53772,2019-05-22T19:01:48.494Z,9953,3,44,43,354,0,0,1910.8,53772,anon659222949,anon659222949," I was just in Berlin for the Data Terra Nemo conference and also ended up attending a DGOV meet-up. Data Terra Nemo is a conference to bring together the community developing open source protocols and clients for decentralized peer-to-peer applications. A very simplified introduction for those who are unfamiliar with the technology: Decentralized web applications are hosted without traditional servers. Instead, every client is both a host and a client. You can often still access these sites from traditional browsers, thanks to that many of them have been implemented in javascript. This shift allows for a lot interesting applications, and this is the scope of Data Terra Nemo. Many of the sessions touched upon the current challenges of decentralized technologies. ## Blindly hosting information for others comes at a cost 'Gossip' protocols like Scuttlebutt allows applications to share a pool of messages between users that are connected to each other. These messages are then interpreted by client applications, which can be social media applications, book recommendation services, chess games or private messages. I wrote a separate post about Scuttlebutt, and I am anon2373157426 inspired by the community which has grown up around that technology. Largely because of the human-centric values of the core developers it has a unique feel and has attracted a big community for being such a bleeding edge technology. My reading of the role that Scuttlebutt plays in this space is that of the experimental avant-garde, the playground where new and radical ideas can be tested and implemented. Dominic Tarr, original developer of Scuttlebutt, had an interesting reflection on his own modus-operandi that I think has translated into Scuttlebutt itself, which is to ""not build the next big thing, but rather build the thing that inspires the next big thing, that way you don't have to maintain it"". And it turns out that the developers of Scuttlebutt are working on problems that affect a distributed technology at its core. One of the core elements of Scuttlebutt is that I can host data for other people on the network without being connected to them directly. I can also host data on my own computer that is encrypted communication between users that I am connected to. This is a feature that is very useful in situations where Bob sends a message to Alice, who is in a country where traffic to the outside internet is highly restricted. If Cindy, who has the privilege of a VPN connection, is connected to both Bob and Alice, then Alice will receive the message from Bob as soon as Alice and Cindy connect to the same network. Cindy doesn't even know that she is carrying a message between Bob and Alice, as both the message and the information about who is talking is encrypted. This is possible because, by default, everyone replicates the entire message stream of their entire network. In fact, many people replicate every message in their networks *2-3 hops aways from themselves*. This creates some challenges. If Hans is in your network and connects to Lars who is a neo-nazi connected to a group of other neo-nazis, you might actually be acting as a server for information that you would really rather not propagate. This is not a hypothetical case. There are already known instances of the Norwegian alt-right using Scuttlebutt as their preferred means of communication. Luckily for people that don't want to deal with them or host their information, they are still anon2373157426 an isolated part of the network and prefer to keep it that way. Nevertheless, it only takes that one well connected person on their network-island connects to another well-connected person in the Scuttlebutt mainstream for that isolation to be broken. Scuttlebutt has tried to solve this with giving users the ability to block accounts they find abusive, but for those replicating data from a large network, they might actually never know who is posting that content. One solution that has been talked about is subscribable block-lists. This way, I could outsource blocking to a person or group I trust to maintain a block-list. Luckily, the most worrisome case of abusive photographs and other image content is not as big of a problem. Images are only downloaded to your computer when your client actually sees them, making it clear to you that foul content has made it into your stream. You might still host links to those images without knowing, but you are not likely to have images on your hard drive that you have never seen. Bottom line is that the community of Scuttlebutt is charging head first into the future, working on challenges that many more will be facing as the benefits of these technologies reach more hands. Distributed systems are both democratizing and empowering, and they come with a whole new set of possibilities. I'd love to hear perspectives from @anon" 2,53776,2019-05-22T21:41:52.080Z,9953,1,41,40,7,1,0,198.2,53772,anon122324738,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:1, topic:9953""] Scuttlebutt has tried to solve this with giving users the ability to block accounts they find abusive, but for those replicating data from a large network, they might actually never know who is posting that content. One solution that has been talked about is subscribable block-lists. This way, I could outsource blocking to a person or group I trust to maintain a block-list. [/quote] I hope you don't mind if I butt in just a anon2488317424 (pun intended) :wink: I feel a anon2488317424 weary about being an SSB conduit and also a anon2488317424 reckless for not paying more attention to whom I am propagating. The all or nothing block is also a anon2488317424 rough (I know it needs to be rough since it's trailblazing!). It feels a anon2488317424 unhuman to be fully accepting and propagative of signal or not at all receptive to anything a person is trying to communicate, I hope the future can hold more ambiguity. Also attempting to create circles of trust is something I've been [thinking a fair bit about](https://medium.com/@anon122324738/reinterpreting-data-as-signal-c4a83a4b09e) in this space too. I don't want to feed any type of Scuttlebutt/Holochain rivalry hanging around the decentralized communities, but I hope it could be interesting to hear a anon2488317424 of anon2696444391 these problems are considered in the HC space (AFAIK). There, there are two main parts to handling this kind of stuff, peer-validation and warrants. anon1443855569-validation is basically an infrastructure to ensure that peers do not publish things to the app (the shared DHT) that break the rules that the users of the app have agreed on, might take a toll on encryption though, not sure anon2696444391 that is going to pan out, I suppose only people that have the keys to decrypt can act as replicators of data in those cases. Warrants are similar to the concepts of blacklists, as actors one actor deems another malicious in some way a warrant is issued which includes the piece of malicious data signed by the actor that sent it (could be multiple different ways with multiple corresponding warrants). As warrants circulate, the app logic states anon2696444391 to resolve them. Banning? Flagging? Starting a process? All that is also meant to be dependable on the reputations and prior histories of the actors issuing warrents as well as those on the receiving end. Also, theoretical and only partially implemented at this stage (again AFAIK). I don't know anon2696444391 all that jives with what is cooking in the SSB cauldrons but my purpose in life is cross-pollination so I hope it might help in these early days of evolution :honeybee:" 3,53778,2019-05-22T23:39:35.487Z,9953,1,37,36,2,1,0,22.4,53776,anon659222949,anon122324738,"[quote=""anon122324738, post:2, topic:9953""] ensure that peers do not publish things to the app (the shared DHT) that break the rules that the users of the app have agreed on [/quote] How is this supposed to work? I'm curious. What does ""validation"" mean in this context?" 4,53834,2019-05-23T20:21:06.528Z,9953,0,33,32,1,0,0,101.6,53778,anon122324738,anon659222949,"Validation means making sure that entries are entered into the shared space only so long as they follow the rules specified in the application. When somebody enters a public entry to their local chain, it is also going to be published to the DHT. anon1443855569s will recieve the entry and pass it through the validation functions declared in the app to make sure they follow them before adding them to their part of the DHT. Validation could consist of simple stuff like, _no images larger than 2MB_ or the oft quoted _no messages longer than 140 characters_. But it could also be to make sure that you are _not editing some material that you don't have authorship over_ or _posting in a space where you only have reading rights_ or something like that. For mutual credit currency situations, validation in apps will ensure you _stay within your credit limits_ and not allow you to go further positive or negative than your calculated limit is (that could be based on other things like prior transactions or integrated activity from other app spaces). Potentially it could also be things like _checking links against an external list_ of websites in order to flag them as inflammatory or _blocking users from spamming until they have achieved some amount of credibility_ in the community of users for that app. It is all written on a per-app basis and DHTs are shared only within an app. Apps in this context is just the data layer since UI's can bridge a whole bunch of back-end ""apps"" and read/write to many DHTs for rich user experiences." 5,53895,2019-05-24T09:10:48.237Z,9953,1,33,32,95,0,0,606.6,53772,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"Thanks for the clear explanation, @anon122324738. And thanks @anon659222949 for explaining what really is in the SSB folder on my laptop. I was thinking about this, and it dawned on me that the European Union's [General Data Protection Regulation](https://eugdpr.org/) was definitely not written with SSB in mind. The GDPR seems to have been written with centralization in mind. For example, if you treat data, you should have a data protection officer. This is someone who stands watch on the data; she is in charge of enforcing the user's rights, like having their data deleted and knowing what uses are being made of said data. But with SSB, this model glitches. In fact, there is no SSB. My right of having my data deleted from SSB is unenforceable, because the data are sitting on people's hard drives. These people do not even know they have my data on their hard drive! Most of them, like me, will also have an automated backup procedure. The GDPR gives people a right to sue for misuse of their data. But in the case of something like SSB, there is no one to sue. This might be a feature and not a bug: people are expected to think before they post, and when they post they can never un-post. I do not know, it is so orthogonal to the regulatory frame of mind that I struggle to transpose the model to SSB and its federated ilk. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of the GDPR. It was designed to limit the power of large centralized corps, and I am already seeing beneficial effects in this sense. But I don't see anon2696444391 it can provide cover against Norwegian nazis using my laptop as a communication device, or help me keep control of data I share on SSB. Anyone has any ideas?" 6,54111,2019-05-28T22:29:30.905Z,9953,0,27,26,2,1,0,60.4,53772,anon2682865457,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:1, topic:9953""] “not build the next big thing, but rather build the thing that inspires the next big thing, that way you don’t have to maintain it”. [/quote] hahahahha this had me laughing out loud, I'd missed that he said this! :smile: He might be onto something considering beaker browsers new development.... (wanted to link but can't find posts about it at the moment) I'm gonna keep reading now though. I think this might tie into more thoughts down the line..." 7,54112,2019-05-28T22:45:51.328Z,9953,0,29,28,2,1,0,60.8,53772,anon2682865457,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:1, topic:9953""] I’d love to hear perspectives from @anon [/quote] This touches upon an aspect I worry about in regards to scuttlebutt as well yet is of a different kind. In your example you mention being faced with data you would rather not partake in, I have found that blocking does indeed hinder most forms of data sharing which I would like to avoid. The one case i have witnessed a lot of discussion around is the same as with facebook/instagram of the ""annoying uncle/aunt syndrome"", in which one has a social obligation to not block the individual yet would rather not see the unfiltered spouting on their feed. Facebook/instagram has solved this by simply opening up for ""opting out"" of seeing their content in your feed. This would be simple to implement on the application layer of SSB for example. On the other hand, speaking of hops and the spread of data, comparing the amount of privacy (in the sense of who has access to your data) SSB is by far more private than current internet standards and platforms. This ties into the core issue of all kinds of flat-structure tools/platforms used for private communication, that they can easily be used for hiding shady information as well, something one inevitably has to take a stance on. In regards to designing for communicating privacy/lack-thereof /quirks of the new protocols, security expert [Eileen Wagner](https://radicalnetworks.org/archives/2018/participants/eileen-wagner/) had a great workshop about this at Radical Networks last year :)" 8,54113,2019-05-28T23:09:15.502Z,9953,2,26,25,2,1,0,70.2,53895,anon2682865457,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:5, topic:9953""] Don’t get me wrong, I am a big fan of the GDPR. It was designed to limit the power of large centralized corps, and I am already seeing beneficial effects in this sense. [/quote] This is actually interesting to discuss though! I had a conversation with the an IT guy who had done a lot of research into GDPR lately to ensure his company fit the regulations. What he said he'd found was that GDPR did initially serve it's purpose of ensuring that European data stayed within Europe, but it had simultaneously opened up a new market for American companies to make money by charging the companies who used their services (such as GDrive) for ensuring that their data would be stored in the companies European servers. Inherently I don't think GDPR suits it's purpose of ensuring the data privacy for it's ""citizens"" as it's an issue rooted in the infrastructure of the default-web rather than anon2696444391 the already faulty system is implemented. In general, spot on regarding GDPR's effect on SSB though @anon3379761435 :smile:" 9,54120,2019-05-29T04:39:22.238Z,9953,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,54113,anon3203746736,anon2682865457,Could you say more about this issue rooted in the infrastructure of the default web? How would you describe it? 10,54121,2019-05-29T08:03:44.133Z,9953,1,27,26,3,1,0,40.4,54113,anon3379761435,anon2682865457,"[quote=""anon2682865457, post:8, topic:9953""] What he said he’d found was that GDPR did initially serve it’s purpose of ensuring that European data stayed within Europe, but it had simultaneously opened up a new market for American companies to make money by charging the companies who used their services (such as GDrive) for ensuring that their data would be stored in the companies European servers. [/quote] That seems a very partial take on the GDPR. Its main effect is that people are waking up to the fact that the cowboy era of data hoarding is over. ""Data minimalism"" has become a thing (for example, it is a tenet of City of Amsterdam's digital strategy: a far cry from the alcyon days of the ""smart city""). IT folks focus on the costs of compliance, but the bite of the GDPR is that it creates digital rights; puts the liability for infringing those rights on the entities that collect data; and then steps aside and lets the courts do their job. The GDPR has inherently more bite for large corps than for small ones, because class actions are much more of a real risk for them. No one is going to go through the trouble of suing Edgeryders. Facebook, though... that's another matter." 11,54163,2019-05-29T15:28:42.711Z,9953,2,22,21,4,1,0,124.4,54121,anon2682865457,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:10, topic:9953""] That seems a very partial take on the GDPR. Its main effect is that people are waking up to the fact that the cowboy era of data hoarding is over. [/quote] Yess! I completely agree, it's a much needed statement indeed, setting a precedent for the future and targeting the big companies. In reality though it makes it difficult for smaller companies to continue their work as they are reliant on the bigger companies which in turn can profit from this reliance with the rules of GDPR as a backing. But yes, it's a much needed statement, if executed in a proper manner is disputable, or if it's even possible to take action in a positive form when the infrastructure itself directly contradicts personal ownership of data. This leads into @anon3203746736s question: > Could you say more about this issue rooted in the infrastructure of the default web? How would you describe it? The infrastructure of the default web is 1) Centralized, as seen in [this image](http://www.itrelease.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/centralized-vs-decentralized-vs-distributed-processing.png) 2) Inherently distributes the ownership of data away from the users 3) Relies on middlemen to deliver the data itself which sees all meta-data With the structure above as a basic foundation of anon2696444391 the https protocol works it is practically impossible to organize for private data where the individual has ownership of the utilization of the data itself since the user can't control who has access to the data or anon2696444391 the data is stored. The movement of Distributed / Decentralized webs are all centered around re-organizing this foundational infrastructure, and more, such as in the case of Mesh networks which goes even further and looks at the hardware infrastructure of the internet." 12,54178,2019-05-29T18:12:13.645Z,9953,0,20,19,1,0,0,24.0,54163,anon3203746736,anon2682865457,It looks like a movement that is gaining in numbers energy and power. 13,54199,2019-05-30T09:01:27.318Z,9953,1,22,21,6,1,0,69.4,54163,anon1608948641,anon2682865457,"[quote=""anon2682865457, post:11, topic:9953""] With the structure above as a basic foundation of anon2696444391 the https protocol works it is practically impossible to organize for private data where the individual has ownership of the utilization of the data itself since the user can’t control who has access to the data or anon2696444391 the data is stored. [/quote] I think that is why Tim Berners-Lee is doing the [Solid](https://inrupt.com/solid) thing now. It's not anon2373157426 there yet, but if we get this right, it'll be a nice middle ground where everyone stays in control of their data, but we will still have sort of centralized app & service providers. (Because, let us be frank, no one wants to have to worry about the uptime or safety of their data storage.)" 14,54200,2019-05-30T09:19:11.675Z,9953,0,22,21,3,1,0,34.4,54199,anon659222949,anon1608948641,"[quote=""anon1608948641, post:13, topic:9953""] Tim Berners-Lee is doing the [Solid](https://inrupt.com/solid) thing now [/quote] And another similar initiative is [Wireline](https://www.wireline.io/). I saw their demo recently, and it seemed pretty stable. Apparently they are very close to releasing. Maybe @anon" 15,54271,2019-05-30T21:23:31.882Z,9953,0,21,20,1,0,0,9.2,53772,anon3214242932,anon659222949,"Hosting info for others definitely comes at a cost, both for the host and the guest, considering ""there's no free lunch"". I'm anon2373157426 interested in Solid, as it feels like a ""middle-way"" from the mainstream Internet as we know it but with the capacity to give users more power and give them control over their data - especially if self-hosting data. Also with the possibility to doing it in an association, co-op or a company they own or are a member of. Works well with the https://mydata.org framework, would love to see a combination." 16,54852,2019-06-11T09:30:05.548Z,9953,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,53772,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"I looked at the blurbs of both Solid and Wireline. The idea has been floating around for anon2373157426 some time: I remember hearing about it for the first time at an event called Public Services 2.0 in 2009. So, I guess my questions would be: * In a world that normally moves anon2373157426 fast, what is delaying deployment? Maybe @anon3554654177 has some answers here. * What is keeping entities accessing your ""pod"" or ""data wallet"" or whatever saving a copy of your data, and then cross-referencing it with whatever else? Technically, of course, they *have to* copy your data. Legally (at least under the scenario of restrictive data protection regulations) they are supposed to delete them, but... will they? Facebook is rumored to have an ""you account"" even if you yourself do not have a Facebook account, and never had one. Would this kind of scenario be prevented by Solid/Wireline? Because if it would not, we go back to good old antitrust policy: forget about the tech, just never allow companies to grow too big, break them up, nationalize them, whatever. Edit: Cory Doctorow seems to share this point of view. https://www.economist.com/open-future/2019/06/06/regulating-big-tech-makes-them-stronger-so-they-need-competition-instead?fsrc=gp_en%3Ffsrc%3Dscn%2Ftw%2Fte%2Fbl%2Fed%2Fregulatingbigtechmakesthemstrongersotheyneedcompetitioninsteadopenvoices" 17,55031,2019-06-13T02:05:15.699Z,9953,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,54852,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,Or maybe regulating them in certain ways makes them stronger. 18,56541,2019-07-11T14:24:32.515Z,9953,2,14,13,1,0,0,32.8,53772,anon2945747231,anon659222949,"so, just read this in email from the alt-right ""social network"" Gab: > After three years of work and after being banned multiple times by both App Stores, Gab finally has dozens of mobile apps for our users to choose from. Recently we moved to an open source and decentralized version of Gab that makes your Gab account compatible with a variety of different apps. > > You can search both app stores for ""Mastodon"" ""ActivityPub"" and ""Fediverse."" Anyway, thought I'd throw it out there. I wonder if they know they're being used by alt-right and if there's something they can do against it." 19,56550,2019-07-11T16:48:19.330Z,9953,1,15,14,1,0,0,28.0,56541,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,"I would be surprised if they did not, although I have to admit to the possibility. I remember years ago when so many of us were reveling in our newfound and newly named online communities as if they were known only to we who wanted to use these tools for planetary enlightenment and cooperation. I soon learned that in fact online bulletin boards and, yes, communities had already been going on with real sophistication in the world of hard-core survivalists and white supremacists. And when I dug deeper, I saw that in fact they were out in front of us on using the technologies. Did the makers of the software know about it? Did Ward Christensen, inventor of the first reliable downloading utility, Xmodem, know his work was being used by the KKK? I don't know. But I can't see anon2696444391 they could have then, or could now, do something to prevent it being used for what they might see as dark purposes." 20,56556,2019-07-12T06:56:32.454Z,9953,1,16,15,2,0,0,18.2,56550,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"prevent maybe not, but this brings this discussion perhaps in a different direction: should we (as society, community) do something about hate speech online. It is a very thin line of course, but this Gizmodo article does sanon2696444391 [anon2696444391 the internet can be a rabbit hole](https://gizmodo.com/the-dirty-business-of-hosting-hate-online-1836286885) > America is a country without hate speech laws, one built on the premise that it’s not the government’s job to decide what types of speech should be prohibited. In the internet era, that sort of governance is largely left up to the private companies responsible for the technology powering all our digital communications. As spectacular incidents of hate-based violence draw headlines and the web is flooded with extremist content, there’s been an increasing public pressure for companies to take that responsibility more seriously. And I did some reporting about this and Dylan Roof in [this newsletter for Coda Story:](https://mailchi.mp/codastory/disinformation-matters-south-park-trolls-youtubes-trump-sends-note-to-ginsburg-and-qanon-pizzagate-whatsapp-murder?e=45dd518ab2) > And while the cyber warriors find their way into our hearts and minds, so have they been able to spread conspiracy theories and cults. Although the response to Donald Trump’s claim that [windmills cause cancer](https://codastory.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2917466ad5ae7d0be32196119&id=f3869f232a&e=45dd518ab2) has been met with derision, the spread of conspiracy theories online is more worrying. WhatsApp conspiracy theories leading to [murder in India](https://codastory.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2917466ad5ae7d0be32196119&id=148c9c3a28&e=45dd518ab2), the [“Pizzagate”](https://codastory.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2917466ad5ae7d0be32196119&id=6e31155041&e=45dd518ab2) conspiracy, and Q-Anon supporters believing all of Trump’s enemies will be arrested and executed for being murderous child-eating pedophiles. > > **How it works** : Dylan Roof, who murdered nine people, said that after hearing about Trayvon Martin's death he [decided to Google](https://codastory.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2917466ad5ae7d0be32196119&id=c3f092a839&e=45dd518ab2) him, finding an abundance of links to “black on white crime.” Radicalization in today’s world, often starts with a simple question online. Our story on [HIV denialists in Russia](https://codastory.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2917466ad5ae7d0be32196119&id=383821a575&e=45dd518ab2) sanon2696444391s anon2696444391 one simple search online can drag people into online groups and forums in which they are bombarded with the conspiracies, finding “like-minded’ new friends and alienating themselves from friends and family - just as [the old cults did before](https://codastory.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2917466ad5ae7d0be32196119&id=fd375a9a51&e=45dd518ab2). But of course, censorship is difficult as well. Mainly because it gives governments a tool to censor anything critical of them." 21,56605,2019-07-13T16:15:09.069Z,9953,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,53772,anon659222949,anon659222949,5 posts were split to a new topic: [Social media manipulation](/t/social-media-manipulation/10342) 23,56590,2019-07-13T09:34:09.726Z,9953,1,17,16,2,1,0,33.4,56541,anon659222949,anon2945747231,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:18, topic:9953""] I wonder if they know they’re being used by alt-right and if there’s something they can do against it. [/quote] In practice, they can’t really do more about it than Apple could to against nazis buying iPhones. These are general apps for using any implementation of specific decentralized protocols. You could compare any of these apps to a radio - you can set them to any frequency and they will play what’s there. None of Gabs data is actually hosted by Mastodon, so to bring the analogy further, nobody working at Mastodon can even see what “frequencies” the apps are tuned to." 27,56598,2019-07-13T14:40:29.456Z,9953,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,1,anon659222949,anon3203746736,@anon3203746736 and @anon2945747231 - this thread is getting very off-topic. The topic of the thread was the troubles of anon2696444391 decentralized technologies mean that _you_ as a user of the technology may unknowingly act as a server and enabler for others whos message you might fundamentally disagree with. These last comments are more about algorithms. Perhaps we should fork it? 28,56603,2019-07-13T16:12:03.482Z,9953,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,56598,anon3203746736,anon659222949,Sure go ahead. Meanwhile I will find other spots to park my screeds about social media manipulation. 29,56606,2019-07-13T16:15:47.449Z,9953,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,56603,anon659222949,anon3203746736,Forked: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/social-media-manipulation/10342/6 30,63820,2019-11-11T21:42:46.519Z,9953,1,8,7,2,0,0,46.6,56590,anon2863106368,anon659222949,"Late to the party.... My perspective on this is that I welcome gab and others far outside my own mindset to use federated tools like Mastodon (as to me the endpoint of federation is everybody running their own instance of such tools). The main benefit is that choosing your own server to host your stuff also is choosing your own bubble: you are denied amplification. No outrage machine like FB or Twitter will elevate you to the foreground. They'll be as isolated as their opinion really is. In a distributed setting they and 'us' will need to earn their amplification the hard way: by convincing other without an opportunity to scale." 31,64089,2019-11-14T17:39:25.466Z,9953,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,63820,anon3203746736,anon2863106368,How does Mastodon work? 32,64102,2019-11-14T21:52:09.033Z,9953,1,7,6,3,0,0,51.4,64089,anon2863106368,anon3203746736,"Mastodon provides Twitter like functionality, as in people can exchanges messages or broadcast them, like Tweets. Mastodon uses a protocol called ActivityPub (AP), which defines an inbox and outbox on your server per user. A mastodon instance can let other instances using AP read the public parts of outboxes, and write to the public part of inboxes. This means Mastodon instances can federate, also with other AP implementations. (My WordPress blog has an AP endpoint so I can post to my blog to reach Mastodon users on some other instance. Though I don't do that currently) I run a Mastodon instance where I am the only user. From it I interact with others who can be on a variety of instances. Discovery is an issue there. Similar to e-mail, you need to know on which server someone is to approach them. I'm at @anon2863106368@anon Any instance can choose to accept or not accept traffic from any other instance. That is why I wrote I think it's ok that gab and others start using AP. It mostly means they will be stuck in their own instance(s), as any other part of the network can choose to ignore them, and all of their traffic. Not as on Twitter, one troll at a time, but entire instances at once. By keeping an instance small, internal moderation is easy (in my 1-person instance non-existent even), and small instances are much less likely targets as the attack-surface for trolling is so small, and each instance can cut-off any other. An issue still is that most Mastodon users are on a hand-ful of instances, so there's not much real distributedness yet. See https://m.tzyl.nl/@anon2863106368 for my public Mastodon profile." 33,64110,2019-11-15T00:49:55.250Z,9953,0,7,6,1,1,0,6.4,64102,anon3203746736,anon2863106368,"[quote=""anon2863106368, post:32, topic:9953""] https://m.tzyl.nl/@anon2863106368 [/quote] Very interesting indeed." 1,64030,2019-11-13T20:55:31.411Z,11516,0,14,13,5,0,0,72.8,64030,anon2863106368,anon2863106368,"I'm involved with the IndieWeb folks, who are about creating functionality / tools that do on the open web what silos do, and focusing on letting people be in control of their own identity, creative output and interaction. On Nov 23/24 there's an IndieWebCamp in Berlin (https://indieweb.org/2019/Berlin2 ) These camps are about a day of discussing steps forward for IndieWeb, and a day of people working on a small thing for their own sites etc. Barcamp / unconference style. Would there be someone interested to attend the Berlin IndieWebCamp and perhaps give a brief introduction there about what Edgeryders is/does and e.g. internet related work currently being done (like NGI)? Oh, and the obvious: anyone of course is welcome to join the Berlin event. They're fun if you have an interest in running your own website(s). I've organised two such IndieWebCamps in the Netherlands this year." 2,64031,2019-11-13T21:07:53.584Z,11516,0,11,10,2,0,0,12.2,64030,anon659222949,anon2863106368,"@anon3554387720, you mentioned that there was some connection between this and the Festival hackathon? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-berlin/10769" 3,64033,2019-11-13T21:30:53.211Z,11516,0,10,9,1,0,0,37.0,64030,anon3554387720,anon2863106368,"Yes I have been in contact with Tantek about this 😍 The idea was that maybe you Hugi could give a short intro there about anon1577251828, and the whole Indieweb crew could join our afterparty. Its just a 15min walk from one location to the other." 4,64034,2019-11-13T21:36:46.114Z,11516,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,64030,anon659222949,anon2863106368,"Great. Well, I will be in Berlin so will be sure to make it over to IndieWebCamp too @anon2863106368. I can give an Edgeryders talk, would be more than happy to. Let me move this to the Internet of Humans category too, as it fits with those activities. Ok with you?" 5,64045,2019-11-14T10:10:47.250Z,11516,2,8,7,1,0,0,31.6,64034,anon2863106368,anon659222949,"All right, if the connection is made, then I'll leave it to you. It came up in a conversation I had with Tantek yesterday. Personally I think that giving an intro on Edgeryders at IndieWebCamp would be very useful. I find that the idea/principles of IndieWeb apply much more broadly to tool and technology use, but that that not always seems obvious to the IndieWeb community. Whereas Edgeryders applies notions like distributedness, tools within control of the user group not a third party etc., to basically every aspect of organising. That wider perspective would be of value to IndieWebCamp participants I hope." 6,64047,2019-11-14T10:16:27.041Z,11516,1,9,8,1,1,0,11.8,64045,anon659222949,anon2863106368,"[quote=""anon2863106368, post:5, topic:11516""] Personally I think that giving an intro on Edgeryders at IndieWebCamp would be very useful. [/quote] As I said, I’d be happy to. Who do you need to talk to?" 7,64050,2019-11-14T10:24:47.543Z,11516,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,64047,anon2863106368,anon659222949,"@anon3554387720 is in touch with Tantek (https://tantek.com) who's a co-organizer of the Berlin IndieWebCamp, so that's the way to go." 8,64052,2019-11-14T10:28:13.713Z,11516,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,64030,anon659222949,anon2863106368,"@anon3554387720, will you set things up with Tantek?" 9,64088,2019-11-14T17:34:43.632Z,11516,1,9,8,45,0,0,226.8,64045,anon3203746736,anon2863106368,"Meanwhile, could you say more about the kinds of projects that come out of IndieWebCamps?" 10,64100,2019-11-14T21:42:45.285Z,11516,1,7,6,1,0,0,41.4,64088,anon2863106368,anon3203746736,"IndieWebCamps are mostly focused on having people add / do something for their own website. But in practice stuff gets discussed and re-used, so typically you also have things like: - finding ways of having private posts on your site, or limited audience posts - adding machine readable licensing info for embedded images - figuring out anon2696444391 to do specific types of content in one's site / cms / static site generator such as bringing check-ins from Swarm/Foursquare to your site, or anon2696444391 to sanon2696444391 maps sans Google Maps etc. In general it's about mixing a number of core components: - IndieAuth, which let's you use your domain name as login (or your github profile), basically using your own site to do 'login with facebook': 'login with yourdomain.tld' - Webmention, akin to pingback/tracback, of the type 'this url linked to that url' - Microsub, subscribing to a feed - Micropub, publishing to a site and a few others. combinations make it possible to e.g. - have my site post to Twitter, and get the responses there as backfeed, and sanon2696444391 them with my posting. - have my site post to a variety of silos with my site as the original source - post, like, bookmark, comment to a posting from within a feedreader - have a client to post from my phone that isn't my CMS's default client" 11,64109,2019-11-15T00:46:12.586Z,11516,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,64100,anon3203746736,anon2863106368,Thanks. The small DIY sites are where the soul of the 'Net lives in great measure. 1,59948,2019-09-26T07:15:59.227Z,10882,0,16,15,48,0,0,318.2,59948,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"**The unintended consequences of tech**. I'm currently working on a small blog post about @anon And the negative effects of tech is something I usually always think about first: * be it creating a government sponsored internet as public good [(but what about China and Russia?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-is-to-be-done-about-the-ad-based-internet-economy/9821/54)) * developing smart cities ([but what about authoritarian regimes?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-internet-of-humans-fellows-interviews-and-podcasts-with-peter-bihr/10423)) * decentralized messaging apps ([but what about hate speech/pedophiles/terrorism](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/decentralized-risks-hosting-information-for-others-comes-at-a-cost/9953)) * or anon2696444391 ""good-intended research"" on facial recognition is [being used by bad actors - and what should done about it](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/when-your-tech-is-used-to-imprison-and-torture-people/10768). But sometimes, the tech is either used as it's supposed to, as t[he increase in mesh networks during the Hong Kong protests](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hong-kong-mesh-network-use-up-3685/10686/6) sanon2696444391s, or there's **TikTok that doesn't only sanon2696444391 ""Snappy, Short, Cut to pop music"" videos**. For [this report](https://codastory.com/authoritarian-tech/tiktok-uyghur-china/), my colleague Isobel Cockerell at Coda Story spend months [on the weird corners of the internet](https://twitter.com/isocockerell/status/1176876742805467137?s=20) and talked with Uyghurs in exile who scout the Chinese TikTok for clues about what is happening in Xinjiang. A anon2488317424 bit of back-story: Xinjiang, China is an information vacuum. With reports of a million Uyghurs in detention, plus censorship, surveillance and a blackout on outside communication, it’s hard to know what’s happening. But some TikTok users have started using the app to share visual clues about life under Xinjiang surveillance. That’s why international Uyghur activists are digging deep into TikTok & similar apps. They’ve found videos that sanon2696444391 China’s ongoing destruction of Uyghur and other Muslim architecture, checkpoints with long lines of Uyghurs waiting to go through, and videos of crying people in front of pictures of their relatives. Douyin, the Chinese version of TikTok, is behind China’s firewall. To gain entry, international Uyghur activists have to use Chinese phones. To find compromising content from Xinjiang TikTok, the Uyghur activists “game” the app’s algorithm, which serves them content according to anon2696444391 they respond to each video. Searching isn’t an option. Location-based TikTok search results are cleaned up by moderators. But still, videos make it through, and are downloaded by the activists and then reshared on other social media platforms like Twitter and Facebook, so they don't disappear. [Read the full thread here](https://twitter.com/CodaStory/status/1176874469081657344?s=20). TikTok - obviously - wasn't made to share human rights violations, but for some it has become the only tool to let the world know what's happening. **Do you have any other examples of a ""positive"" unintended use of an app or website?**" 2,60092,2019-09-29T19:26:09.497Z,10882,1,10,9,1,0,0,42.0,59948,anon3708943593,anon2945747231,Thanks for sharing! Wired also did a write-up of her work here: https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-is-the-latest-window-into-chinas-police-state/ 3,60097,2019-09-30T02:00:38.254Z,10882,0,11,10,1,0,0,37.2,60092,anon2945747231,anon3708943593,"Ha, that's my colleagues piece, which was republished by Wired with Coda Story's permission :) great you read it there" 4,61815,2019-10-21T12:34:30.601Z,10882,1,9,8,2,0,0,31.8,59948,anon2489867874,anon2945747231,"Interesting article. One of the less discussed ""features"" of mass communication and the internet is that we each, individually, are not wired to process the amount of information we receive. Why would we be? There is nothing even close in history where so much conflicting information is pounded into our brains. Even the terms ""positive"" and ""negative"" lose some meaning since the two are actually connected - especially these days when you cannot tell who is working for the Internet Research Agency and other governments or movements...from who is not. As as example, the OP "" developing smart cities ([but what about authoritarian regimes?]"" - what about them? In China 700+ million people have been taken out of poverty and now have food on the table and a lifespan as long as Europe and the USA. That is virtually a miracle never before achieved in human history. Now they, and others, are dealing with the ""positive/negative"" consequences of religion (See: History of Europe, etc.) and are making decisions which they feel will best serve the People as a whole (hopefully). While many in the West may be surprised at the idea of of censored internet - just the same, we have to deal with mass shooters and their manifestos and their ""free speech"" circulating much further and easier. It's as if our openness is being used against us since this very openness usually means big tech is controlled by large Corporations and Governments.. The more I see (and I have been online since 1986) the more I appreciate models like Craigslist...it would be great if Craig (not me, of course!) created an alternative twitter. We could all help! I know I am not providing a specific example as asked in the OP - partially because there are so many of them. Most all mass communication allows for this - even the telephone, that put us all in touch, then allowed for everything from scams to people being much more crude to each other. Just look at most historical letter writing - the primary source before the telephone, to see anon2696444391 civil the conversation used to be! I'm afraid the answer is that we have to waddle though all the negative consequences and that, in the end, the internet may not be as ""free"" as the well behaved among us had thought. Humans, in general, need to be kept in a sandbox of some sort in order not to go off the rails." 5,64093,2019-11-14T18:35:22.282Z,10882,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,61815,anon3203746736,anon2489867874,"@anon2489867874, I just re-read this insightful post. It has long been a conundrum as to anon2696444391 ""community standards"" apply when local and universal are joined. It is so different from anything prior that it has not been figured out, except to censor or to come up with judicial rulings favoring either local or universal. Neither really works right. One could say that rules and laws are a form of collective self-censorship (if the people devise them of course), and generally that system has worked when the players in power act with fairness. But this is different. Speaking of unintended consequences, which is a main point of this topic, and [Craig Newmark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Newmark), I am anon2373157426 sure he won't be starting a new service for the masses. His Foundation gives heavily to evolving journalism and keeping it vital. He never set out to create something that would cause newsrooms all over the world to fire large amounts of people, but that is what happened when newspapers lost their classifieds revenue to a nearly-free service. I applaud his conscience on this matter and regard him as exemplary in this way." 1,63585,2019-11-09T08:32:34.983Z,11462,0,11,10,6,0,0,62.2,63585,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"Full text https://www.theinternetofthings.eu/sites/default/files/docs/ECJ_vol5_issue2_Rob_van_Kranenburg.pdf) My scenario is breakdown of national states and EU under ten years if datalakes and the capabilities derived from that (predictive maintenance not just of Industrial Internet of Things (IIoT) but of all processes in society, AI running in and off Big Data creating new entities) are not under control of the actors collecting taxes. The choice is thus not about “privacy” or “security of devices”, but about continuing to function as a society able to offer generic infrastructures to its citizens. The focus on identity is related. Why would there be so many contenders for providing identity (WIN, Sovrin, ID2020, Uport/IoTA, eIDAS...) if the system itself of the nation state was “stable”? After Over The Top players (OTT) on services, the next logical step we will witness is OTT on systemic identity itself. Against this scenario I prefer a further European integration after the euro, which was the first step towards peace in Europe, on the full stack of infrastructure as a commons of 500 million people. With this in mind I offer a positive narrative of emergent technologies that can build a supporting infrastructure offering tailored solutions to individuals and groups. *Picture the current situation: a table full of delicacies, linen as white as snow, beautiful cutlery; you’ve invited your friends to dinner. Everyone is happy and deep in conversation. All realise, anon2696444391ever, that nothing on that table is yours. You only (still) own the house in which you throw the party. GAFA: Google, Apple, Facebook and Amazon, and BAT: Baidu, Alibaba and Tencent, play on that table and they get richer every minute from our very own feedback. They build new services on top of that. You realise that at some point soon they will take over your house. They already offer to pay the rent of the patio, and do you really need the attic? You are in an uphill battle. You have no tools to fight off the invaders as you are only now, when it is too late, beginning to realise these friends you have invited are taking reality itself, what is “normal” to another level. And as the peasants learned anon2696444391 to tumble the knights from their horses, the world was never the same again.* https://www.theinternetofthings.eu/sites/default/files/docs/ECJ_vol5_issue2_Rob_van_Kranenburg.pdf" 2,64091,2019-11-14T17:52:12.569Z,11462,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,63585,anon3203746736,anon3554654177,">The choice is thus not about “privacy” or “security of devices”, but about continuing to function as a society able to offer generic infrastructures to its citizens. Governments have bought technology from the private sector for as long as anyone remembers. So what is the difference now, given the insightful but rather scary sentence I quote from above: data. It seems we - at least where I am in the USA - trust these corporations to gather and hold data about ourselves we would never have given to the government and probably wouldn't still. I doubt most people have any idea that using these nifty phone services leads, or can lead, to a government being unable to perform its basic functions." 1,63778,2019-11-11T17:43:30.708Z,11489,0,15,14,8,0,0,43.0,63778,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![communitycalls%20logo%2012thof%20oct-01|690x487](upload://jQpmbUmHGSChYlwJi6n1hKIwJ9J.png) Dear organisers and festival participants! The first Edgeryders Festival event has already taken place with the [Scifi-Economic Lab.](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-science-fiction-economics-lab-brussels-november-11th/10794) The next NGI and Wellbeing events are following soon next week! Here is the opportunity to catch up again tell each other what is happening, who is coming and what we still need from each other :). Please come to the call on Tuesday the 12th 18:00 to catch up and see if everything is on track and if and anon2696444391 you would need help :). Looking forward to seeing you at: https://zoom.us/j/489971765 Ping @anon2682865457, @anon3554387720, @anon3747875924, @anon @anon" 1,62678,2019-10-31T15:59:53.893Z,11326,0,12,11,16,0,0,82.4,62678,anon659222949,anon659222949,"* Organizer: @anon659222949 * Location: Stockholm, Sweden ## What is it **The Internet Days** is Sweden's most important knowledge hub for policymakers, industry, media and people interested in the internet. The conference is organized by The Swedish Internet Foundation and takes place on November 25-26 in Stockholm. **This event is slightly different than the others at the festival, seeing that Internetdagarna is a sold-out external event. We are bringing the Edgeryders Festival to the participants of Internetdagarna.** Edgeryders have been invited to exhibit at Internetdagarna. We will use this opportunity to interview participants at Internetdagarna and bring the Edgeryders Festival to the event. We do this in the context of NGI and ""the Internet of Humans"", focusing on interviewing people about their personal experiences with the internet. By focusing on personal experiences with people who work in the industry, governance, policy and the media we are hoping to find new interesting angles on anon2696444391 people experience the internet today and anon2696444391 they see it developing in the future. We will also talk about the Edgeryders methodology and anon2696444391 SSNA and ethnography is informing the NGI ecosystem. I will be joined by @anon3554387720. I might also supported by one of my friends helping out by doing video interviews. To bring the transcribed and recorded interviews onto the platform, we will use a new interface that makes onboarding participants in the field a lot more efficient. Internetdagarna help us drive participation to our booth with their RFID game ""[Blippy](https://internetdagarna.se/om/blippy-2/)"" where participants get an RFID chipped badge which they collect points on by going to different stations. Collecting ""blips"" is a competition with prizes for participants. I think we might get anon2373157426 a lot of attention, ## What I need and anon2696444391 you can engage There is room for one or two more people, for which I have tickets. Can @anon1753543892 make it? If @anon2559300400 or @anon3379761435 feel like joining to explain the SSNA methodology and perhaps do some ""field coding"" that would be fantastic. In that case, I just need resources to cover travel and accommodation, something I would also like to have to cover for @anon3554387720." 2,62680,2019-10-31T16:07:33.623Z,11326,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,62678,anon1753543892,anon659222949,@anon659222949 I could join on the 25th 3,62681,2019-10-31T16:12:30.304Z,11326,0,10,9,2,1,0,12.0,62680,anon659222949,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:2, topic:11326""] I could join on the 25th [/quote] That's fantastic, thank you!" 4,62682,2019-10-31T16:20:09.249Z,11326,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,62678,anon2794261635,anon659222949,Could you please fill-in the events [monitoring form](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IKhQ5cEXPd0YxRw-eg-hzhGtcZxX-nLW/edit) @anon659222949 so we can promote on the project website as well? 5,62690,2019-10-31T16:47:20.086Z,11326,0,9,8,1,1,0,21.8,62682,anon659222949,anon2794261635,"[quote=""anon2794261635, post:4, topic:11326""] Could you please fill-in the events [monitoring form ](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IKhQ5cEXPd0YxRw-eg-hzhGtcZxX-nLW/edit) @anon659222949 so we can promote on the project website as well? [/quote] Done, it's on the drive." 6,62729,2019-11-01T08:29:26.478Z,11326,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,62678,anon3828707713,anon659222949,There is some travel budget left for the festival - so I would use that to finance Oliver' travel. 7,63587,2019-11-09T08:58:19.169Z,11326,0,5,4,1,0,0,21.0,62678,anon3828707713,anon659222949,"I would ask that both you and Oliver post individual post-event posts with a summary of what you learned, and some reflections for future work to explore/ conversations to be had." 8,63908,2019-11-12T16:44:37.564Z,11326,2,5,4,1,0,0,16.0,62678,anon2860100070,anon659222949,"Hi @anon3828707713, Who is part of the NGI project? I would like to invite someone to speak at this conference, if possible: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/launch-of-the-european-holochain-hub-tickets-78965141865 Warm regards, Liliana." 9,63925,2019-11-12T18:20:48.245Z,11326,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,63908,anon659222949,anon2860100070,"It’s me. Unfortunately, this particular event is sold out. Do you live in Stockholm?" 10,63944,2019-11-12T22:44:21.489Z,11326,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,63908,anon3828707713,anon2860100070,"Hi, there are several people in the wider anon1577251828 community who might be interested. @anon2682865457 maybe?" 1,62850,2019-11-03T14:55:39.095Z,11344,0,13,12,3,0,0,32.6,62850,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![communitycalls%20logo%205th%20nov-01|690x487](upload://jcYrz9VcosBMEVoy7BFGU4s2NIv.png) Dear organisers and festival participants! It is November! It is getting even hotter for the Festival preparations :)! Now we should all be decided and booked on the date and location and have a clearer image of the last needs and most importantly be ready to start inviting all the interesting people we want to have there! Please come to the call on Tuesday the 29th 18:00 to catch up and see if everything is on track and if and anon2696444391 you would need help :). We are discussiong for example participants signing up, outreach & documention Looking forward to seeing you at: [https://zoom.us/j/489971765 ](https://zoom.us/j/489971765)" 1,63477,2019-11-08T11:16:20.648Z,11441,0,7,6,7,0,0,36.4,63477,anon2794261635,anon2794261635,"From 5-6 of November, @anon3379761435, @anon659222949 and I were at the DECODE's final event in Turin. [DECODE](https://decodeproject.eu/what-decode) is a project funded under Horizon2020 programme, ending in December this year. Through four pilots in Barcelona and Amsterdam, in the field of digital democracy, citizen sensing, and collaborative economy the project explored solutions to ""create a decentralised innovation ecosystem that will attract a critical mass able to shift the current centralised data-driven economy towards a decentralised, sustainable and commons-based economy"". This was the [agenda](https://decodeproject.eu/events/agenda) and [HERE](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gnpbA96PGLvwPIMyQDxs-7OOLJtC_m2u4mOiZvVZ8OA/edit) are the full notes from the two days for those who are interested." 1,61020,2019-10-09T14:44:21.083Z,11073,0,24,23,59,0,0,299.8,61020,anon2682865457,anon2682865457,"![Edgeryders-Fest-FB-1200x628-zenna-01|690x361](upload://tRh0ECBb4nFGQNaeEAL9gKiv6UI.png) * **Organiser:** @anon2682865457 * **Location:** Lodgatan in Östra Hamnen, Malmö ## Event intro/description: Re-Web is a day dedicated to those who wish for a more sustainable infrastructure and system. We aim to explore anon2696444391 we can prepare for a finite, post-climate change earth through practical and hands on action, initiated by conversation. There will be no speakers, instead we have facilitated conversations, harvested and shared with a larger European network of Edgeryders as part of a distributed festival in order to let the word spread far beyond our physical space, while also finding each other in the flesh. The intention is to create a network of people who are interested in transforming the world and to have conversations about this, in line with the topics at hand. This event is held as part of a continental festival held in 10 different locations across Europe: https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/ The main fields to be focused on is: - Resilient Tech - Networks & Communities - Sustainable Futurism and Solarpunk SIGN UP TO HOST A SESSION: https://bit.ly/2MxNI1k This event is bringing together people who are currently directly involved in building, researching, regulating, monetising and or providing meaningful input into the wider debate around the technologies in question. We want to ensure that every participant leaves the venue having presented and discussed their work with others who can provide meaningful input or connect them with opportunities to further their goals. If this appeals to you, then we would love to have you join us. Just create an anon1577251828 account and introduce yourself to the community. **How is this all financed?** This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu ### Format The event will be divided into two parts: 1. A smaller “crew” get together the day before with the participants in the network who are especially invited. 2. A larger event with multiple tables for hosting conversations. At least three sessions at a time structured as a world cafe with an approximation of 2-3 rounds of conversations ending with a wrap up and a 1-2-4-all. There will be an opportunity to host conversations until all the slots are filled up. Before the event there will be a sign up to host conversations. Each sign up will be presented the same way a regular presenter is usually presented at a conference with a short text / video description of them in preparation. The intention is to create a network of people who are interested in transforming the world and to have conversations about this, in line with the topics at hand. The event will take place at Lodgatan in Östra Hamnen in Malmö, Sweden with room for up to 200 guests but we are aiming for far less. This event is seen as an iteration with potential for hosting more events in the future.
# Frequently asked questions ### How do I get an invitation/ticket to this workshop? **Complete the registration form: https://register.anon1577251828.eu/** ### How is this event being organised? This event, and the festival it is part of, is coordinated on the anon1577251828 platform (where you are now) and co-curated through a series of community video calls. We have allocated a collaboratively managed budget for the festival and operate on a solidarity basis. Participants who need some financial support to organise or be able to participate in the festival are eligible provided they contribute towards making it a meaningful and generative experience for all - in the run up to, during and/or after the event. If you would like to join us but are unsure as to anon2696444391 to contribute, don’t worry. Create an [anon1577251828 account](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login), then [tell us a bit about yourself here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you) and we will guide you along from there. ### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png) ### Does getting involved mean I endorse the funders views or actions? No. What you are doing is contributing to an open consultation on the topic of anon2696444391 to build a next generation of internet infrastructure, technologies, business models etc that promotes the wellbeing of humans and the natural environment. The consultation methodology is designed in such a way as to allow for diversity of views, premises, disciplines, themes and contexts. We employ open notebook science principles and the results will be presented in the form of a research report accessible to everyone after the event. You can follow the process, review the methodology and open source tech we are using and engage directly with the research and coordination team here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/workspace ### What is the code of conduct? It is important to us that everyone in the room feels welcomed and safe; if you have any particular concerns or needs just send me a PM here on the platform or write to [anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu](mailto:anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu) . The Edgeryders online platform technology and activities are intended for people to cooperate within and across projects trying to build a better world. The word “better” has here a fairly broad range of meaning. These [Community Guidelines](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/netiquette/45) are here to help you understand what it means to be a member of Edgeryders. Don’t forget that your use of Edgeryders is subject to these Community Guidelines and our [Terms of Service](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/id/44). ### What happens with my data? You can read about our [Terms of Use and Privacy Policy here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/terms-of-use-and-privacy-policy/44). Also: * [Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016 on the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data, and repealing Directive 95/46/EC (General Data Protection Regulation) (Text with EEA relevance)](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.119.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:119:TOC) * [Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0046) * [Handbook on European Data Protection directive](http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Handbook_data_protection_ENG.pdf) * [European Commission website - Protection of personal data](http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/)" 2,61022,2019-10-09T14:51:37.925Z,11073,0,21,20,1,0,0,54.2,61020,anon3828707713,anon2682865457,"Hi @anon2682865457 :slight_smile: As promised during our chat yesterday I have made you a placeholder wiki for you to fill in with the key info. Below a description of the process as I have been running it for my own workshop on AI & Injustice. Followed by a checklist for organisers. If you have any questions, etc just post in the comments and we take it from there. Works? ## ORGANISATION CHECKLIST : *Please ensure each of these things are done, the team members tagged for each respective point on the list are responsible for helping you with it. But it is important you reach out to them, and check that they have from you whatever info/materials/etc they need to make it happen!* 1. Update/Create individual event descriptions with: Catchy Name for the event, URL for signup form, Description of format & process, FAQs, Logistics info (address, time, date, team info) - [follow this template](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels); *(responsible: organiser with help from @anon1753543892 )* 2. Give Maria photos + statements/quotes she can use to customise design from the template: @anon 3. Organise 2 calls to develop the session topic with the confirmed speakers; conduct one on one interviews & skeleanon2863106368 posts with each participant: * Call#1: Individual interviews with confirmed participants & produce skeleanon2863106368 posts *(@anon2945747231 @anon850704935 with support from @anon3203746736 and @anon1753543892 to help people post their content)* * Call#2: Group call with all confirmed participants *(Organiser + @anon1753543892 )* 4. Keep track of the festival signup form and welcome/onboard each person *(@anon3203746736)* 5. Formalise practical arrangements for speakers participation: *Travel, fees, onboard them on the process, organise schedule, collect bio info + photo + recommended reading materials for other participants etc* *(individual organiser with support from @anon1753543892 )* 6. Make a twitter list of Europe-based people who are interested in the topics to be covered in this session then reach out to them & more people to propose people or put themselves forward for the list - *( @anon850704935 - reaches out to each session organiser and asks who they want to engage, then organises outreach/comms campaign around that)* . 7. Prepare press/communication kit & send to local event calendar websites, journalists etc (@anon850704935 8. Push out comms campaign for event via social media for event (@anon850704935)" 3,61025,2019-10-09T15:18:38.585Z,11073,0,20,19,1,0,0,39.0,61020,anon3828707713,anon2682865457,"Also. There are three posts on deep green + tech which might be helpful to you in developing the event in chronological order so it is easier to see anon2696444391 the conversations progressed https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-internet-of-biases-and-other-terrible-ways-to-open-a-conversation/10190/15 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-tech-workshop/10191/21 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/event-notes-unstructured-tech-moonshot-for-climate-change/10696/2 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-do-we-weave-together-the-threads-of-various-conversations-we-are-having-around-a-deep-green-transition-and-what-are-our-next-steps/10775 This is a workshop someone else is running in Berlin: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-what-do-digital-services-in-a-world-of-net-zero-look-like/11070" 4,61302,2019-10-14T10:26:08.299Z,11073,0,16,15,2,0,0,43.2,61020,anon3828707713,anon2682865457,"Thought you might find this useful for the event... Data for Environmental Intelligence: A mega list of Earth System Datasets covering earth observations, climate, water, forests, biodiversity, ecology, protected areas, natural hazards, marine and the tracking of UN's Sustainable Development Goals https://github.com/rockita/Environmental_Intelligence" 5,61750,2019-10-20T17:15:27.415Z,11073,1,13,12,1,0,0,42.6,61020,anon2682865457,anon2682865457,@anon1753543892 done! 6,61818,2019-10-21T13:03:03.088Z,11073,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,61750,anon1753543892,anon2682865457,"@anon2682865457, I filled in your flyers and attached one as a header to this post, you can find the png's and illustrator files here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14zt01ZMTxFhU-y9pv3_sAVm9Hdt_rY1d?usp=sharing" 7,61880,2019-10-21T22:35:27.767Z,11073,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,61818,anon2682865457,anon1753543892,Awesome! Have uploaded for the facebook event! 8,61881,2019-10-21T23:03:02.858Z,11073,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,61880,anon1753543892,anon2682865457,@anon2682865457: Did you share the Facebook link with @anon850704935 ? 9,61882,2019-10-21T23:04:29.615Z,11073,1,11,10,1,0,0,42.2,61881,anon2682865457,anon1753543892,I have written to them both and awaiting response now :) 10,61891,2019-10-22T06:03:07.192Z,11073,0,13,12,2,0,0,27.6,61882,anon3828707713,anon2682865457,Yayy. can I haz link to facebook event? 11,63452,2019-11-08T09:38:06.027Z,11073,0,11,10,5,0,0,42.2,61020,anon3828707713,anon2682865457,"Hi @anon2682865457 Iam putting together this repository of materials that we can use to post on the event page and our anon1577251828 as well as our individual social media channels - to give would be participants a sense of what we are exploring. As well as entry point to join various relevant discussions already happening in different parts of the platform. I am updating it continuously but I thought it is good to post what is there already and add so we can start already… ## [What does tech look like on a finite, post-climate change earth?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-what-does-tech-look-like-on-a-finite-post-climate-change-earth/11073) ### 150 word description of the event in the form of an invitation to join us adapted for email * Copywriter adds it here ### A summary article, also not more than 150 -200 words combining the insights/overview and good quotes from theses sources: * [Living greener as therapy: anon2696444391 I stumbled upon plasticless, trees and diy protein](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/living-greener-as-therapy-anon2696444391-i-stumbled-upon-plasticless-trees-and-diy-protein/11396/3) * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-the-internet-help-the-climate/9856/17 * **Deep green internet of biases? and other terrible ways to open a conversation: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-internet-of-biases-and-other-terrible-ways-to-open-a-conversation/10190** * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-we-put-humans-citizens-first-in-our-smart-city-policies/9878/14 * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/event-notes-unstructured-tech-moonshot-for-climate-change/10696/2 * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/draft-post-anon2696444391-to-build-an-incubator-for-accessible-environmental-solutions/10688/3 * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/on-assessing-impact-and-what-anon1577251828-could-do-in-that-department/10708/7 * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-internet-of-biases-and-other-terrible-ways-to-open-a-conversation/10190 * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-tech-workshop/10191 * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/city-of-milan-to-reforest-3-million-new-trees-will-lower-city-temperatures-by-2-3/10387 * [How do we weave together the threads of various conversations we are having around a “deep green” transition, and what are our next steps?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-do-we-weave-together-the-threads-of-various-conversations-we-are-having-around-a-deep-green-transition-and-what-are-our-next-steps/10775) * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-tech-workshop/10191 * https://anon1577251828.eu/t/living-greener-as-therapy-anon2696444391-i-stumbled-upon-plasticless-trees-and-diy-protein/11396/3 ### 3 quote banners: Visual Materials here. * **How can the Internet Help the Climate? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-the-internet-help-the-climate/9856/17** “I definitely think that the Internet can help the climate and approach the challenge - can it right now? Not sure.” * **A Radically New Internet - A Study on P2P Protocols and Mesh Networks: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-radically-new-internet-a-study-on-p2p-protocols-and-mesh-networks/9802** “If mesh networks and peer-to-peer protocols are implemented, especially in combination with each other, it would be a much more durable communication infrastructure for society.” * **How can we put humans/citizens first in our smart city policies?: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-can-we-put-humans-citizens-first-in-our-smart-city-policies/9878/14** “Let’s call it “tiny data”. In the highly resilient society of the future, we’ll have to rely on local resources much more than now. This can be a city-level or neighborhood-level micro-grid or an off-grid house, or probably all of these to have multiple levels of redundancy. I am personally living off-grid and from that experience I can tell that good monitoring of ones energy, water, wastewater, heating and cooling systems is essential for wise resource use and proper functioning. For example, I know that I need 500-700 Wh of photovoltaics energy a day, and that I can cope with at most 10 days of gray sky in winter. That’s where IoT comes in. Network-connected sensors and an evaluation software would combine local consumption data and weather forecasts into behavior recommendations.” ### 3 Call-to-action Status updates: Visual Materials here. * Call to action + URL #1 * Call to action + URL #2 * Call to action + URL #3" 1,62740,2019-11-01T12:41:59.683Z,11332,0,14,13,4,0,0,84.8,62740,anon738668702,anon738668702,"Hello Edgeryders! My name is Roberto Trevini Bellini, I have been suggested by a friend to join this very interesting community. I am impressed reading the names in the panel of speakers for the event on 19/11 in Brussels, and some of the stories shared in the forum. The topic and the angle it is approached are definitely interesting for me personally and professionally, and hopefully I could bring a useful additional point of view to the discussion. Briefly, my story: after my studies in political sciences and international relations with a focus on human rights, I started working in the field of international development cooperation and humanitarian aid. I have worked for different kinds of organisations (NGOs, Italian Development Agency, European Commission, private companies), and for the last 5 years I have been project manager and trainer/consultant for a consulting company, especially working in the area of training and skills development for the development and humanitarian community, with the European Commission being our main client. Development cooperation, with all its flaws and contradictory features, is (or should be) fundamentally driven by the goal of fighting inequalities and eradicating poverty. However, after 70 years of international development cooperation, while some progresses have been achieved, it is evident that inequalities are still growing. The age of the Internet has brought many new opportunities and challenges for the global fight for justice and equality. Technological advances have made knowledge, services and goods far more easily available to a bigger share of global population. However, the control over these resources is increasingly concentrated in the hands of few stakeholders (usually private corporations, and to a lesser extent public entities). During my university studies, I followed a course about the governance of the global communication and information systems, which raised my awareness about the intimate link between anon2696444391 technology is designed and anon2696444391 much the users are (or aren’t) protagonists of the decision-making processes that impact their daily lives. For example, I am currently involved in the design and development of an online training programme, funded by the European Commission, to develop the skills and awareness of volunteers engaging in solidarity actions in Europe. We are just starting, but it is already evident that accessibility for everyone is key for the success and usefulness of the programme, as it is the direct involvement of learners in shaping the e-learning contents and modalities. Another example is the possibility to use geo-spatial data to provide humanitarian or development services with the direct involvement of beneficiaries. In general, my curiosity is piqued by the possibility to develop technologies that can re-shape development policies and practices towards a needs-based approach instead of a donor-driven approach. Besides strictly development/humanitarian aspects, I am interested in the role of technology, AI, social networks and IT tools that can empower citizens and foster democracy in an increasingly complex global society. I look forward to meeting you in Brussels." 2,62750,2019-11-01T18:30:21.718Z,11332,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,62740,anon1753543892,anon738668702,@anon 3,62755,2019-11-02T00:23:42.436Z,11332,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,62740,anon3203746736,anon738668702,Do you have some examples of 'solidarity actions' so I can better understand anon2696444391 you mean that term? 4,63284,2019-11-07T11:06:47.823Z,11332,1,11,10,1,0,0,42.2,62755,anon738668702,anon3203746736,"@anon3203746736 The training programme I mentioned is for the European Solidarity Corps initiative of the European Commission. [https://europa.eu/youth/solidarity_en](https://europa.eu/youth/solidarity_en) There are three kinds of activities: VOLUNTEERING ACTIVITIES Individual volunteering lets young people participate in the daily work of organisations and lasts between 2 and 12 months, and in some cases, 2 weeks and up. Participants can volunteer abroad or in their country of residence for projects covering social inclusion, environment, culture, and more. Volunteering teams are groups of 10-40 young people from at least two different countries who volunteer together for a period of between 2 weeks and 2 months. The costs of accommodation and food are covered. Participants also receive a small allowance for personal expenses. TRAINEESHIPS AND JOBS Traineeships count as full-time work practice and last between 2 and 6 months – renewable once. They are paid for by the organisation responsible for the traineeship. Trainees develop their personal, educational, social, civic and professional skills. Jobs are full-time and last between 3 and 12 months. They are paid for by the organisation employing the participant. Traineeships and jobs can take place in the participant’s country of residence or abroad. If abroad, participants receive a small allowance to help them relocate and settle in a foreign country. Participants of volunteering activities, traineeships and jobs get online linguistic support, training and mentoring. Their travel costs to and from the project venue are covered. SOLIDARITY PROJECTS Solidarity projects are initiated, developed and implemented over a period of 2 to 12 months by at least five young people who want to make a positive change in their local community. Young people who want to run a solidarity project in their country of residence must register in the European Solidarity Corps portal. You can find some examples here: https://europa.eu/youth/solidarity/solidarity_projects_en I report here one of them: #### Paranduskohvik – a repair café in Esanon2863106368ia The main purpose for the repair café is to make people aware of the negative environmental impacts of the consumer society and to encourage them to maintain the environment. It takes place in a community based makerspace (an open workshop) that provides all neccesary tools that may be needed for fixing all sorts of appliances. People are invited to bring their broken things and together with volunteers try to fix them. What is relevant to the 19/11 event is the way we are designing and developing the on-line training programme, by involving directly a Youth Panel in reviewing our draft programme." 5,63315,2019-11-07T13:40:28.193Z,11332,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,63284,anon1753543892,anon738668702,"@anon294806887, is this repair cafe relevant for you/ do you happen to know people that might be interested in it? In connection to this: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/living-greener-as-therapy-anon2696444391-i-stumbled-upon-plasticless-trees-and-diy-protein/11396?u=mariaeuler" 1,62668,2019-10-31T15:23:15.885Z,11325,0,20,19,453,0,0,2329.0,62668,anon2559300400,anon2559300400," First, some background on the ethnography team’s (@anon4046128282, @anon3708943593, @anon2559300400) process: we read (and reread and reread) the threads posted on the Edgeryders website. Then we develop codes for the threads that cover the content of the conversations taking place. Sometimes these codes are “in-vivo” reflections of the conversations (direct quotes from community members), sometimes they draw from established terms in the (academic) debates about Artificial Intelligence (AI), Blockchain, Cloud Technologies and other Internet ABC’s (for a detailed description of our coding see [our open codebook ](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qERrVXNdwJL_GWsPYJy_makIcvIBmJhwDgP1-SiKgRg/edit?usp=sharing) or feel free to shoot us a message on the platform). To ensure the transparency and methodological rigour of our work, we keep detailed memos in which we explain the decisions we made, identify concerns, and define paths forward. We also have monthly calls in which we discuss difficulties, code-collapsing, and relevant developments in the world of tech and culture (of which we also keep a log in the codebook). Over the past few weeks the NGI Forward ethnography team has been focussing much of their attention on threads pertaining to issues on the internet, tech and the environment. Our work on these threads has brought up two key insights that will be useful to keep in mind as we develop our methods. First, those of you community members interacting on these threads appear to largely represent experts in tech; meaning you either seem to be conducting research, developing software, platforms, applications, leading groups of innovators and designers, or engage in activism and journalism around tech issues. This is something to keep in mind both for community managers and ethnographers, as it means we are observing and coding insights based on expert knowledge -- we want to tailor our questions to you towards gaining a deeper understanding of emergent trends, policy, design and innovation. This level of knowledge and engagement on your part means we can ask you more detailed questions, as we are interested in your nuanced analyses of technology issues. Interestingly (and perhaps conversely), explorations of the relationship between the climate and the internet/tech appears to be in its infancy, and though we are working with a community of experts, there often seems to be a struggle to solidly define key terms and concepts. Despite expertise, or perhaps because of it, specificity in defining technologies and technological areas requiring increased research focus persists across stories, meaning that you might find defining targeted and specific problems around these areas difficult as well. Also of interest, many of you find an underlying tension between acknowledging the ecological costs of the tech industry and findings ways to develop technological tools to protect the climate. These two points seem to characterise a caution on the part of the community when it comes to making bold or definitive claims about tech and the climate. They also indicate a desire to define the terms we are using to make sure we are on the same page, talking to each other about the same things, before we try to give solutions to problems. This may explain why codes thus far are more topical (sketching the broad areas that you have been interested in discussing) than analytical or solutions-focussed. We don’t necessarily see this as an issue, but instead something to track and pay attention to moving forward, as it may tell us all something about the challenges we face and approaches we take when trying to imagine the future of internet technologies. **![-eAZTPL0PAXhx0vRCEUJqdH3sT-LkP-2MsctTFL6sV-gKA9PerAKusQ-JA5APA8zLAQSPGSRqNQRUZ2yhhaVfBAliQlAffhpOIoSNpZPmbmQaQ0tK9PS--Bp3AuI3NZRqDqIE3dF](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-eAZTPL0PAXhx0vRCEUJqdH3sT-LkP-2MsctTFL6sV-gKA9PerAKusQ-JA5APA8zLAQSPGSRqNQRUZ2yhhaVfBAliQlAffhpOIoSNpZPmbmQaQ0tK9PS--Bp3AuI3NZRqDqIE3dF)** Several current threads revolve around the notion of Deep Green Tech. While there is a lot of interesting discussion around this concept, it has yet to be clearly defined by the community. From what we can gather so far, Deep Green Tech is similar to Deep Tech, describing mainly startup companies based on substantial scientific research and innovations in tech engineering. Deep Green Tech, broadly, seems to describe technology that is ecologically sustainable, innovative and based on scientific advancements. The concept of Deep Green Tech appears to be a central area of focus for the NGI Forward community, but there seems to be ongoing discussions to clarify confusion around the term’s definition, its ramifications and implications. As a result, we want to help cut through the opacity of these discussions by working with you to understand anon2696444391 you define the term while also asking you to give concrete examples of its application, e.g. in design, research, tech innovation etc. In this way, we think we might all move toward a deeper and more productive discussion of the futures we want to see. A notable tension that arises in community discussion on tech and the environment is that between navigating the ways in which tech/internet can help combat climate change and protect the environment and the energy and ecological costs that technological advancement has on the environment. We are interested in further exploring your understandings of this tension. Finally, an initial visualisation of the codes pulled from the NGI Forward threads revealed a range of central, yet general themes. This may be again based on the cautious atmosphere of community interactions at this stage, but it also seems to be linked to the absence of concrete examples and personal narratives. We want to start to understand these issues on a personal level, beyond just drawing upon general and objective material. Going forward, we want to gather your expertise by asking more biographically oriented questions, which may help us tease out personal narratives and interpersonal connections around these technologies and help you share what inspires you to think the way you do about these issues. Asking you what motivated you to work in tech, anon2696444391 you use the internet on a daily basis, etc. can help us capture a more dynamic picture of the internet of humans. Looking back on Open Care, it’s rare that people have detached and impersonal stories about healthcare experiences. We need to find ways to explore similarly impactful or meaningful avenues around the Internet— to ask you to share stories about experiences or opinions formed from experiences, as well as abstract ideas. One of the central things we’re taught when doing the interviewing /question asking part of ethnography is to ask our participants to be specific by asking specific questions (this is what community managers on ER are always trying to do) — to move away from the general and ask what you did yesterday, to tell a story about a specific time something affected you, and so on. In Open Care, instead of asking ‘what do you think of healthcare’ it was ‘tell us about a time you interacted with the healthcare system— what did it look like? How did you feel? What issues came up for you?’ If we can find such parallels on the Internet (rather than ‘what does the future look like to you’?), instead ‘tell us about the last time something online upset you, and why?’ (or other questions along those lines, around sustainability for example) we might all get a deeper understanding. In short, we hope to move away from asking anon2696444391 you think and feel in general and toward asking you about specific experiences, recollections that prompted emotional reaction, opinion forming, or action from them. We can't wait to hear more of your fascinating thoughts and experiences on these issues!" 2,62670,2019-10-31T15:24:13.035Z,11325,2,19,18,0,0,0,28.8,62668,anon2559300400,anon2559300400,@anon3828707713 @anon1753543892 @anon2945747231 3,62672,2019-10-31T15:25:53.805Z,11325,1,19,18,0,0,0,23.8,62670,anon1753543892,anon2559300400,"Great, this is the rewrite for sharing?" 4,62673,2019-10-31T15:25:57.532Z,11325,0,19,18,0,0,0,18.8,62670,anon2559300400,anon2559300400,edit at will :) 5,62699,2019-10-31T17:54:10.896Z,11325,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,62672,anon2559300400,anon1753543892,"Yep! I don’t know if @anon3828707713 wants to look it over first, but this is my take on what she asked for :)" 6,62710,2019-10-31T19:45:21.798Z,11325,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,62699,anon3828707713,anon2559300400,Im good. 7,62655,2019-10-31T14:30:19.316Z,11325,0,21,20,0,2,0,19.2,62668,anon3379761435,anon2559300400,"Wow, super interesting! First, a methodological point: the very high modularity that appears in the first picture (which represents _all_ co-occurrences) is an artifact of SSNA itself. The cliques like the one highlighted in blue are induced by a single, dense post which is coded with 5-10 codes, which then, by definition, form a clique. On the other hand, the fact that the graph is connected (all nodes in the same in connected component) is not artifact of SSNA. The graph that has a more meaningful interpretation is the second one, where only the edges between codes that co-occur at least twice are preserved. [quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:11320""] community members find an underlying tension between acknowledging the ecological costs of the tech industry and findings ways to develop technological tools to protect the climate. These two points characterise a vagueness, reluctance and caution on the part of the ER community when it comes to making bold or definitive claims about tech and the climate, which may explain why codes thus far are more topical (sketching the broad areas that community members have been interested in discussing) than analytical or solutions-focussed. [/quote] It's just an intuition, but I expect this finding to be representative of the broader debate, not just of the NGI Forward community. [quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:11320""] One way to cut through the opacity of these discussions would be to directly ask users to define the term while also offering concrete examples of its application, e.g. in design, research, tech innovation etc. [/quote] One for @anon3203746736 and @anon1753543892! [quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:11320""] n short, we are missing the meat of these issues because users are not engaging with them on a personal level and instead are drawing on general and ‘objective’ material. Going forward, we can use the fact that we are working with tech experts to our advantage by asking them more biographically oriented questions, which may help us tease out personal narratives and interpersonal connections. Asking our informants to tell us what motivated them to work in tech, anon2696444391 they use the internet on a daily basis, etc. can help us capture a more dynamic picture of the internet of humans. We can also push them to dig deeper in their analyses and offer opinions on specific questions and future potentials through more pointed and guided enquiry. [/quote] This is also very useful analysis, to inform community management in the months to come. [quote=""anon3828707713, post:2, topic:11320""] Is it ok for us to compose a version of this adapted for the community members’ public discussion? [/quote] I completely support this idea!" 8,62676,2019-10-31T15:54:59.851Z,11325,1,20,19,0,1,0,24.0,62668,anon1753543892,anon2559300400,"[quote=""anon2559300400, post:1, topic:11320""] One of the central things we’re taught when doing the interviewing /question-asking part of ethnography is to get people to be specific by asking specific questions (this is what community managers on ER are always trying to do) — to move people away from the general and tell us what they did yesterday, to tell a story about a specific time something affected them, and so on. In Open Care, instead of asking ‘what do you think of healthcare’ it was ‘tell us about a time you interacted with the healthcare system— what did it look like? How did you feel? What issues came up for you?’ [/quote] I have a question regarding anon2696444391 we should try to gently push the development of a certain type of post creation as you touched on here. I fully understand the importance of the connection of personal experiences and examples to the abstract discussions. The texts that are developed from the interviews such as this one: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/can-tech-design-for-survivors-anon2696444391-sex-violence-and-power-are-encoded-into-the-design-and-implementation-of-data-ai-driven-sexual-misconduct-reporting-systems/11193 can provide this especially since @anon2945747231 did a great job getting it out. However, I would like to ask the Ethnography team (@anon2559300400) on their opinion on the influence of the length of a post on its ability to create ongoing interwoven discussion. Do you have any insight on that? There are certainly posts that are too short to lead to meaningful discussions, but could it also be that if a post gets too long and dense, that kind of decreases the ability of the community to engage into a discussion of the different aspects since the discussion will develop along the lines of the first few comments which in return will become the source of following comments which will mainly zoom in on one aspect of the original post and morph that on further?" 9,62689,2019-10-31T16:43:55.826Z,11325,1,19,18,0,0,0,23.8,62676,anon2559300400,anon1753543892,"Agree. Posts that are too long are also hard for people to respond to. I think what might be useful is to go to the Open Care page and sort the posts by most replied, and look at the posts themselves --- check them out for length, detail, and content. If you get people talking about focused, specific things, chances are the length won't be too long (and not too short, as long as the question is asking for a story or experience or example). I find that usually the question shapes the answer length, so asking the right scale and scope of question is key." 10,62692,2019-10-31T16:49:53.661Z,11325,3,19,18,0,0,0,18.8,62689,anon1753543892,anon2559300400,"@anon3828707713 and @anon2945747231, should we take this in regard when doing the longform deep dive interviews and correlating posts? Maybe making more than one post out of and interview? Could that be realistic? Or should we keep them this rich and dense? Maybe we could do the longform posts but than take 2-3 paragraphs to make into their won posts/ask the inved person to do so?" 11,62693,2019-10-31T16:52:36.498Z,11325,0,20,19,0,0,0,4.0,62692,anon2559300400,anon1753543892,"I remember that @anon3203746736 has ideas on people's attention in terms of post length, clicks, etc as well!" 12,62700,2019-10-31T18:05:15.128Z,11325,0,20,19,0,0,0,19.0,62692,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,"when you look at journalism, it doesn't really matter, as long posts often get longer responses and are actually shared more: you weed out those who are just there to be heard themselves and those who care about a subject." 13,62706,2019-10-31T18:48:05.089Z,11325,0,22,21,0,0,0,94.4,62668,anon3203746736,anon2559300400,"Some thoughts about this, possibly disjointed. Regarding length: I think that after about the first paragraph, and maybe just halfway through it, people tend to spot the writer their attention one sentence at a time. If something is interesting enough, the reader will stick with it, but even then often not to the end. This is a big reason why journalistic writing was developed and why you shouldn't ""bury the lede."" They knew for years that most reader don't go ""past the fold"" in a newspaper story unless they are on a long bus ride or in a waiting room. It is not so different online really. Except for the concept of click bait, which didn't exist before. I think a lot of bloggers mislead with their headlines and then take as long as possible to get to the point so they will get a better impression count for their ad revenue. Also, they might just be lousy writers. I know I was for a long time. Learning to write clearly and succinctly in this semi-spontaneous posting medium, while bringing out a compelling story worthy of a reader's attention takes skill and practice. But I very much like the exhortation that we continue to try to bring out more the personal side of people. I think there are a couple of challenges in doing it. One is that the ER community uses the platform for anon2373157426 business-like or project-specific purposes. It is not a social place or a hangout. This is by design for the most part, and just clearly not the preference of the main participants. The ER community does a lot of getting to know each other, socializing, meeting up, etc. but it is almost entirely offline and in-person. I think this works well for the regulars, but does not tend to create that encouraging of an atmosphere for comfortable personal sharing (stories) as a default. For my part, I try to throw a story or an anecdote into every post I make if I have one i think is worthwhile. And encouraging more of it in others is something I agree we can do to help enrich the dialogue. The other challenge besides this ER platform not really being seen as a hangout, is the nature of the subject matter in NGI. Amelia describes the problem well. Experts likes to share their expertise. But we have two kinds of experts here: policy and engineering. I think the engineering participants do inform their work with what they see as an ethos compatible with NGI goals, but like the policy people, they come in and say something then go back to their project. Maybe asking for updates is a good approach to keep them engaged. The policy experts for sure want to see things made that reflect NGI principles, but there seem to not be many of those projects out there to point to. Finding and highlighting them whenever we find them is, I think, one of the things the EC would like us to be doing here. Generally, the policy experts, and I see myself as one of them at least to some degree, point out the problems. I think we have done a good amount of that here. Tunneling our way to solutions or attempts at solutions or raising the profile of individuals who the EC ought to know more about are big parts of what makes this project worthwhile. I do think that the people interviewed by Peter and Zenna are all interesting and they do tell their own stories in those talks. Interviews are of course one of the best ways to draw them out of people. As for deep green tech: very challenging indeed to define it and we did try to get some better definition of what the term even means specifically, but I think we need to try to get more clarity there. And I like Amelia describing tensions inside some of these issues. I think none of us believe that tech is going to ""save"" us, but I also think that if we did not have at least some belief in clever tech solutions we would not be involved in these conversations. I know I feel pretty conflicted about it myself." 14,62716,2019-10-31T20:12:36.744Z,11325,0,20,19,0,0,0,19.0,62692,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"well those posts have a specific context/purpose - the practitioner workshop on AI and Justice. We base the development of case studies on these deep, rich posts. And it is a deeper conversation amongst people who are very interested in these topics that will generate value for everyone. Perhaps an approach to try is to develop one page articles presenting the synthesis we make (i.e the cases) with a question and invite more people to contribute to that conversation? The other is a series of solarpunk stories that take on a more personal entry point to all this..." 15,63297,2019-11-07T12:18:29.880Z,11325,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,62668,anon659222949,anon2559300400,Pinging @anon 1,59900,2019-09-25T14:35:11.340Z,10868,1,13,12,168,0,0,877.6,59900,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Workshop held during NGI Forum 2019 ([more information](https://www.ngiforum.eu/workshop-1/)). This document contains notes, curated by [Edgeryders](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) in the context of the [NGI Forward](https://research.ngi.eu/) project, but open to the contribution of all. Moderator is @anon3554654177. ## Oskar van Deventer – Self-sovereign identities Many organizations are administration factories. Every time you interact with them, they ask you for information, which then they process (name, email, phone number). There is a different way to do it. People have an information wallet, and orgs ask the wallet for exactly the information they need, not more. People can comply, or decline, or even report excessive requests for information. This is a SSI. This ecosystem consists of issuers, holders, and verifiers of identities. Oskar has a demo based on the story of a patient ordering drugs online. The eSSIF-Lab EU project provides funding for technology development and business applications based on this idea. The first open call is going out in early 2020. Q: How would the data storage work? Some kind of citizen wallet, but anon2696444391 do you implement it? A: The concept we are working on lives on issuer DBs, accessed through a phone app. Q: What prevents service providers from asking for all of the individual’s data, and the person accepts because she needs the service? A: This is my nightmare. You cross the Chinese or US border, and then some kind of data vacuum cleaner empties your wallet. This might require issuers policy, stating once and for all what can be done with those data. But I do not yet know anon2696444391 to solve it. ## Gaëlle le Gars I want to share with you anon2696444391 the Commission sees this issue now. There are two major trends that have undesirable consequences. One is social credit scoring. In Europe we are likely to see a “consumer scoring” version of it. Companies share information on you as a consumer, determining whether you are an undesirable customer. Undesirables are ostracized, made to wait for help, unacknowledged. This is illegal, but the infrastructure is there (it is GAFA), so we suspect this is happening. The other trend is the integration of identification databases across the EU on the grounds of police and justice administration. There is a regulation for interoperability of these DBs across the EU, including a lot of info (like: travel information). However, there are also two opportunities. One is e-government applications; the other is that this is now a centerpiece of EU policy, so things can happen to defuse these risks. Q: How does EIDAS play into these scenarios? A: (Loretta) It is time that you people – not the Smart City crowd, not the IoT crowd – take control of this issue. There is something profoundly human about freedom from surveillance, and identity is political. Speak up, and apply for funding if you have ideas to implement in this space. [Round of presentations follows] ## Maria Rautavirta: Human centric data economy * Re-using personal data creates new business opportunities * But people should be included in the decisions about what is done with their data. * Currently it’s mostly open data that are being exchanged. All other data does not travel much, in sits in data lakes with a big lock at the door. Finland has come up with Data principles to enable more data exchange. They are human centric, thriving (efficiency gains from exchange) and balanced (divide fairly the benefits of the gains). There are six principles: Access, Share, Act, Innovate, Trust, Learn, all this by default. They are available at https://dataprinciples2019.fi . ## anon646763613 Bonelli: wrap up The problem of identity is central, not only in policy but in philosophy and the arts. It is a complex problem, but there is a core simplicity. In logic, A=A: an entity coincides with itself. When I pass the border between Finland and Russia, a frontier guard looks at my passport, and validates that I am anon646763613. Data in the passport matter, but maybe it is the validation that matters most. Now we are discussing about other methods of validation, algorithmic. Loretta said that identity is political; and politics, as defined by Aristotle, is definitely not a science, more like a kind of art. ## Loretta Anania's suggestions for wrap up 1. Where is the ecosystem? 2. Oskar’s nightmare scenario: “wallet vacuum cleaners”. 3. Gaëlle’s two risks and two opportunities. 4. The opportunity to build offered by the NGI initiative. Also ping @anon659222949!" 2,59904,2019-09-25T14:44:58.485Z,10868,2,11,10,11,0,0,82.2,59900,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"During this session, I had a sort of epiphany: self-sovereign identities and decentralized governance of personal data are incompatible with monopolies. We agree to anything, when that unlocks a service we need. Imagine you had one of these amazing data wallets, allowing you to authorize which services can access which personal data. Now imagine that your bank, or your keysanon2863106368e social networking service, told you ""I want access to _all_ of your data, or else you don't get an account from me."" What are you going to do? You cannot function in modern society without a bank account (or, some would say, a Facebook account). So you agree. You agree to _anything at all_. That's not because of any technological issue. It's _because you have no power_. We have been in a similar situation before. In the early 20th century, for-profit companies operated public utilities like energy, water, rail transport. This happened because of technological reasons: building two aqueducts in the same city is wasteful. The first company that builds an aqueduct can obtain monopoly of water provision in that city, and maintain it forever. This was called a [natural monopoly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly). Today's ""network externalities"" provoke a similar effect, and for similar reasons. This situation led to massive profits, driven by the power imbalance between monopolist providers and users; to the exclusion of less affluent users; and to rent extraction, pushing potentially viable businesses into the red. Europe responded with antitrust legislation, with its array of policy tools: nationalizations, tight regulation by specialized agencies, and direct provision, with public sector actors starting their own water, energy, and transport companies. Municipalism played a major role here: where the state would respond too slowly, or not at all, cities stepped into the breach, at least in some countries (including Italy). It is maybe not a coincidence that the strongest critical voice claiming to reduce the power of business was [Francesca Bria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesca_Bria)'s – Europe's digital municipalist-in-chief. It comes down to game theory. If I had the personal data wallet right now, and my bank would refuse to accept it, saying ""nah, you have to fill this online form""; or if it _did_ accept it, but only under the condition that they get access to the whole thing... I would consent. What can I do? Now, if the European institutions owned a trusted operator that _would_ accept that data wallet in an equitable way, now I could tell my bank ""fair enough, I'll take my business elsewhere"". This way, the game has a completely different equilibrium. Conclusion: maybe, in order to get this stuff adopted, you need antitrust policy. Makes sense?" 3,59913,2019-09-25T19:22:15.000Z,10868,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,59900,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Alberto, This is amazing, great work! I will work on the input from the participants that I collected next week with anon646763613 and then we integrate your notes in there. We will publish them here and use that to kickstart a series of discussions on “identity”. We can also plan en evening in the Festival in Brussels on this topic, Greetings, Rob" 4,59938,2019-09-26T00:38:53.321Z,10868,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,59904,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"It looks like the US Department of Justice may open an antitrust investigation on Facebook : https://www.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-probe-antitrust/u-s-justice-department-to-open-facebook-antitrust-investigation-source-idUSKBN1WA35M I was thinking about anon2696444391, ultimately, any kind of sanctions against multinational companies providing digital services could be enforced. And looked into examples where there were disputes between companies and states. It seems that if the digital service providers have contracts with states then the obvious choice would be international arbitration. Because apparently international arbitration rulings are much easier to enforce than litigation in national courts. But apparently this requires them to have signed a contract with a mandatory arbitration clause in it (where both parties have agreed to settle via arbitration in case of a dispute). Which I am guessing that in the EU this hasn't happened? Just a thought." 5,63269,2019-11-07T09:46:19.324Z,10868,0,8,7,1,1,0,36.6,59904,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:2, topic:10868""] During this session, I had a sort of epiphany: self-sovereign identities and decentralized governance of personal data are incompatible with monopolies [/quote] Revamping this topic after the [DECODE Symposium](https://www.decodeproject.eu/events/our-data-our-future-radical-tech-democratic-digital-society) in Turin. Monopolies and their regulation came up in a very similar way in several talks. One of the panels was called ""Big tech in crisis: Policy Responses on Competition and Data Sovereignty"", and at least two people called for ex ante regulation of monopolies, and specifically blocking mergers. * Tommaso Valletti remarked that ""Google bought 270 companies in the past 18 years, and no one is looking into it."" * Alexey Ivanov had a very nice story of anon2696444391 Russia vetoed Google buying up a local search company in 2008, and that resulted in competition (3 companies) on the search market in Russia to this day. * @anon Ping @anon3554654177 and @anon1965424313: something for the Policy Lab blog?" 1,63156,2019-11-06T08:42:50.297Z,11387,1,12,11,3,0,0,82.4,63156,anon1502828353,anon1502828353,"Hello all, I am anon1502828353 and I am a PhD researcher in the field of applied AI for respiratory care. I am very enthusiastic about the impact that AI technologies have brought in our daily lives, with many more yet to come. However, I am also skeptical of the media-frenzy around AI, especially in healthcare. I would love to discuss some of these challenges so that we adopt a cautious approach in implementation of AI technologies to improve healthcare. Regards, anon1502828353" 2,63168,2019-11-06T09:21:41.378Z,11387,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,63156,anon3828707713,anon1502828353,"Hi anon1502828353 and welcome to Edgeryders :slight_smile: The preparations for the workshop are revving up so you sanon2696444391 up at just the right time. The way are doing this is that we share first hand experiences that involve the technologies we are discussing from our work or personal lives. And leave thoughtful comments on the posts shared by other participants. To help us move the thinking forward and craft a number of case studies based on the information we collect from the different posts and discussions. These case studies then form the basis for the workshop itself so that we have a common foundation for a grounded, evidence based discussion. My suggestion would be to start by looking through what others have posted, select one or more posts which interests you and leave a comment on it. It is important to depart from personal experience or bodies of work that you have come across: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you" 3,63214,2019-11-06T17:37:33.390Z,11387,0,6,5,1,1,0,21.2,63156,anon3379761435,anon1502828353,"[quote=""anon1502828353, post:1, topic:11387""] However, I am also skeptical of the media-frenzy around AI, especially in healthcare [/quote] Hello @anon1502828353, welcome! I am Alberto, one of the old-timers here. I hear you, media-frenzy is not pretty to look at. Do you have any experience of dubious, or even damaging, application of AI to health care? I would be very curious to know more..." 1,61761,2019-10-21T02:15:38.071Z,11194,0,7,6,2,0,0,26.4,61761,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"In this 23 minute conversation, Zenna and Andre dig into scuttlebutt and the large implications of small networks. Andre's current project is Manyverse ""a social network off the grid"" that is a mobile app for using Scuttlebutt. (https://www.manyver.se/) https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/9/97612b9447d5de8065fa6e39eddbfaf26212b4b9.mp3" 2,62308,2019-10-25T17:54:08.931Z,11194,0,5,4,0,0,0,16.0,61761,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Here is the text of the interview. TEXT of IoH-Zenna Interviews Andre Staltz.txt (22.1 KB)" 3,63197,2019-11-06T15:16:50.982Z,11194,0,5,4,0,0,0,16.0,61761,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,"@anon3293944081, maybe this is for you?" 1,58800,2019-09-04T22:21:04.936Z,10686,1,20,19,173,0,0,914.0,58800,anon659222949,anon659222949,"https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/190616_HK_Protest_Incendo_03.jpg https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2019/09/02/hong-kong-protestors-using-mesh-messaging-app-china-cant-block-usage-up-3685/#378a2f63135a Mesh networks in one of the most connected cities in the world. Goes to sanon2696444391 anon2696444391 important it is to not lose track of developing self-reliant technology in the age of 5G hype. > How do you communicate when the government censors the internet? With a peer-to-peer mesh broadcasting network that doesn't use the internet. > That's exactly what Hong Kong pro-democracy protesters are doing now, thanks to San Fransisco startup Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based messaging app. The protesters can communicate with each other — and the public — using no persistent managed network. @anon3554654177, I'm curious about what role technologies to increase self-reliance have played in the taskforces? Do the taskforces address possible future internet censorship by future European Commissions that might not be as liberal? @anon2682865457, this is very relevant to your interests." 2,58803,2019-09-05T05:30:55.643Z,10686,2,18,17,4,0,0,33.6,58800,anon2945747231,anon659222949,"I read this yesterday, it's a great example of decentralization used for ""good."" But in terms of censhorship (and the Chinese firewall) a friend of mine remarked ""can't the secret services not also easily start using the same networks?"". Which brings us back to the discussion we had here on hosting malicious content on your servers as well: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/decentralized-risks-hosting-information-for-others-comes-at-a-cost/9953 My question would be: what kind of mechanisms could be put in place to deter these? Thoughts?" 3,58828,2019-09-05T13:07:38.644Z,10686,0,15,14,1,1,0,23.0,58803,anon659222949,anon2945747231,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:2, topic:10686""] “can’t the secret services not also easily start using the same networks?” [/quote] If they are on the network as regular peers they are just extending the mesh. Even if they intercept messages on the network, those messages are end to end encrypted, and not even the secret service can break good end-to-end encryption. There are things they could potentially do though, just with the information gained from knowing anon2696444391 the messages are flowing, even though they couldn't know the contents. There are technologies that stop that from happening – like SSB, in which everyone gets and propagates every message of everyone they are connected to, but even the identity of the recipient is encrypted." 4,58851,2019-09-05T23:21:56.465Z,10686,0,15,14,2,1,0,28.0,58800,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:1, topic:10686""] future internet censorship by future European Commissions that might not be as liberal? [/quote] Or states. Some European states do not like ""liberal"" already. Reporters Without Borders issues a [""rating"" of all states](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship#RWB_%22Internet_enemies%22_and_%22countries_under_surveillance%22_lists). EU states mostly do fine, but the UK is classified as ""enemy of the Internet"" and France as ""under surveillance""." 5,58976,2019-09-09T16:56:05.939Z,10686,0,14,13,1,0,0,52.8,58800,anon3203746736,anon659222949,"This reminds me of two similar big national events in the past decades: The end of the Soviet Union, that was partially hastened by a primitive TCP/IP network partly setup and managed by the US-Moscow Teleport based here in SF, in which the net could keep going even if any given node was discovered and shut down. This is a main way Yeltsin was hidden during a period when the Soviet military was trying to find and imprison him. In 2001, citizens in the Philippines relied on SMS texting to help overthrow their President. This was back before governments figured out anon2696444391 to capture or block those streams. So, yeah - those of you working on mesh networks, you are part of a fine and necessary tradition." 6,59303,2019-09-15T08:44:17.298Z,10686,0,11,10,2,1,0,57.2,58803,anon1061055045,anon2945747231,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:2, topic:10686""] a friend of mine remarked “can’t the secret services not also easily start using the same networks? [/quote] Another thing a regime can do, is to find a few people who use that technology, and sentence them to 20 years in prison. Then write about this in the newspapers: tech forbidden, 20 years in prison. Then find more people, put in prison, broadcast in the media. Repeat. Until people stops using the tech, for fear of ending up in prison (or worse)." 7,63170,2019-11-06T09:39:14.916Z,10686,0,9,8,1,0,0,81.8,58800,anon3093654461,anon659222949,"I don't know if Bridegefy is encrypted but I've read an article they use it to communicate on the ground using Bluetooth to create the mesh network : http://www.bridgefy.me One of their main discussion tool isn't Facebook (compared to 2014) but a reddit like forum https://lihkg.com/ Lots of other apps being used are listed here “Digital resistance: security & privacy tips from Hong Kong protesters” by Sam Aiken https://link.medium.com/5tKJv0Nko1 Also check out the Umbranon4205961763 app with on the go security tips that can be applied not just for HK." 1,62430,2019-10-28T23:51:03.109Z,11282,0,14,13,8,0,0,89.8,62430,anon3524690799,anon3524690799,"my name is anon3524690799 and I am a social entrepreneur and technology researcher. Currently, I am a MSc candidate at the Oxford Internet Institute. I was very honored to be interviewed by the fabulous @anon2682865457: here you can listen to the podcast (https://anon1577251828.eu/t/podcast-zenna-interviews-anon3524690799-schoeppl/10894) and below I post the transcript of that recording. My current research interest is in the global governance of emerging technologies. In the podast we mostly discuss a potential narrative shift from 'cyberwar to cyberpeace' as a practical utopia and guiding north star but also touch on other internet-related technologies such as the governance of AI. I hope it serves you and I look forward to engage with your wisdoms and insights." 2,62431,2019-10-28T23:51:21.846Z,11282,1,14,13,3,0,0,22.8,62430,anon3524690799,anon3524690799," _Text of the audio conversation with Zenna Fiscanon4205961763 and Noah Schoeppl_ _Recorded September 2019 for Edgeryders and NGI Forward_ _Zenna: _ _Welcome to the first episode of the Edgeryders podcast with Zenna or anon2682865457 for ""human centered internet."" Today, we are interviewing Noah Schoeppl. And the conversation will be exploring Noah's visions and thoughts of a utopian internet, as well as some of Noah's history. We've been talking anon2373157426 a bit ahead of time. And we recently got introduced each other. And it was kinda with a shebang and a lot of checkboxes. _ _To give it a round about exploration of what you've explored previously, is it legal infrastructures mixed with AI and ethical complications that come thereof. And you've explored ethical hacking, and working with radically open security, as well as politicy, psychology, law, economics and programming and many more it seems like, and now you're entering a master's program at Oxford, in like, two weeks. Yeah. To start off, if we if we go about it from a chronological order, where would that lead us to start?_ _Noah: _ _I'm Noah. And I think my journey started as a politically aware and interested human being anon2373157426 young, I was 12 or so when I really someanon2696444391 caught fire for a topic that now is actually all over the world and more in the headlines, but back then was not so much. And it's really just the question: anon2696444391 can we get to a world with hundred percent renewable energy as fast as possible. And that was my utopia, that that really inspired me and got me going. _ _And I came from a small town in southern Germany, and I started to, travel to different places, protests and all these things. This got me in touch with research institutions, and political institutions. And then there came a second phase at some point, because I realized, well, someanon2696444391 in the end, in all these discussions that I had with politicians and lobbyists and activists, in the end, you know, like, we can all discuss this, and anon2696444391 there's an ecological imperative anon2696444391 we need to change our world, due to the ecological boundaries of our world. But in the end, still, the economic argument wins someanon2696444391. It always does in the political arena, or tends to, and I was really frustrated by that. And so I was like, Well, if the economic argument wins, maybe I should learn better anon2696444391 it works. And I really got into business ethics, and asked: anon2696444391 can we reimagine anon2696444391 the economy and anon2696444391 businesses work, because to challenge that paradigm of that it's only about money making, and it's much more about human thriving and the common good. And these are the contributions that companies should aim for. _ _So from there on, I realized what drives companies and what really shapes them, because companies can become really slow to develop there as well. The single force that right now is changing companies and the economy most is technology. And so if we get this one right, if we can get the technological change right, then that's also a really good opportunity to just change anon2696444391 our economy works, and anon2696444391 our society works for the better. So like technology is what's right now is the moving pieces that right now are shaping new things, and our generation has the opportunity to co-shape these technological changes. And I think that's opportunity I want to take so that we can use the technology together with our human insights and intuitions and values to make a more humane society and economy._ _Zenna: _ _So I'm, I'm curious. Now, we've talked a anon2488317424 bit about this before about the technology being power. And we also talked about anon2696444391 Oxford was Hogwarts. And coders are the wizards up today. Framing it in that perspective, is an egalitarian world something worth fighting for? And if it is, what is technology and the knowledge thereof, what place does that have?_ _Noah: _ _In generally I find egalitarian philosophy very appealing, particular, John Rawls' idea that first of all, freedoms should be equal, and everybody should have some basic civil liberties. And then when we look at material conditions, that to be very rough again, the different principle according to John Rawls is that an unequal division of resources is only legitimate, if it actually benefits those that are least well off. And I think, right now we're definitely at a point I would say, where we don't justify our current system is not justified by that, by that standard, in the sense that we use technology often not centered on the most vulnerable people in our communities and societies._ _Also Silicon Valley culture, even if it purports to save the world, startups get bought up by venture capitalists, which then again are owned by the ones that already currently own the world. Self-feeding. Exactly. And again, I find it sad that all this beautiful technology that could be built into really meaningful things in the end, nobody says that all the social media companies we have now or all those giants needed to go to the direction they had to it was just that's the society in which technology arrived was one in which these kinds of innovations were immediately put under profit, maximizing pressure._ _Zenna: _ _And copyright?_ _Noah: _ _And copyrights is also one part of it. Yes, I could imagine very different ways of arriving there. But then again, I think my my philosophy that I developed around this is kind of really being willing to think, very radical, very big about anon2696444391 things could be different, but then really starting from where we are right now. So I really don't like just complaining about anon2696444391 things should be very different. I didn't like only like talking about business ethics, but I also got into social entrepreneurship and founded companies myself and tried to not just talk about anon2696444391 business should be run differently, but I tried to do it. And it's hard. _ _Zenna: _ _just as a tidbit, what's goal that you found from your time in there, and I don't mean, goals as in capitalist values, but as in, what did you find that you brought with you on your new journey?_ _Noah: _ _I think generally, the, the methodologies of business can often be very useful if they are used to different ends. So like, basically, the idea of Muhammad Yunus is to find a social business, to use business means for social ends to solve real social problems, and not for the kind of problems they've been conventionally associated with. One more additional thought that helped me to develop my own philosophy that I call pragmatic idealism. At this point, I can summarize in three models: first, hope without critical thinking, is just naivety, but critical thinking without hope is just cynicism. And then the second idea is: confidence without humility, is just arrogance but then humility, without confidence, is sheepishness._ _Zenna: _ _And that's your own personal philosophy for anon2696444391 you see yourself throughout the world?_ _Noah: _ _More people that inspired us include Maria Popova, Bulgarian writer, but also many others. And then like the last sentence kind of is more like the synthesis of it all I would say, which is pragmatism without idealism is just opportunism. But idealism without pragmatism is just wishful thinking. So that's kind of my, that's my philosophy. That kind of is the goal, I would say, I found that pragmatism and idealism need to work together. Yeah, the, I think, especially like, the first two are probably more inspired by other people. Pragmatism and idealism, they live in the space between the two. And so really have ambitious goals, but also be really pragmatic, where you start with it._ _Zenna: _ _if we go back to the origin of the ambitious goals, so to speak, if you were to start sketching out the image of what those ambitious goals for, let's say, if you want to reshape the internet, plural, What would that look like for you?_ _Noah: _ _I don't have one overarching one but I think I have several different utopian visions. I took an international relations course in my undergrad degree in Amsterdam in social sciences and I was thinking about, well, anon2696444391 does international relations in global politics fit into cyberspace that we increasingly live in, and the internet and, and just writing and trying to combine this global politics theories with these new technologies, and then I just for some reason, wrote these words like cyber peace and cyber war. And I just noticed that my computer for some enough reason underlined cyber peace as like an unknown word, but not CYBER WARS. I looked up in different word processing programs, none of the knew cyber peace, but all the knew cyber war. And so it was just like, Well, that's interesting, the vocabulary that we have in the conceptual space of the internet, is we conceptualize it as war, we don't even know anon2696444391 to talk about it in terms of peace, because we don't have a word for it. And just that obvious asymmetry that it someanon2696444391 needs to be a very aggressive and violent place, apparently out there. And this is the language we use. That kind of made me think there's some utopia missing. When you look at what is cyber peace, maybe we look at peace in the real world first. There were always like ideas of world peace, they've always existed, but someanon2696444391 we've not achieved it yet. So just one very common idea of world peace was developed by Immanual Kant, a philosopher, who in 1795 wrote an essay called 'perpetual peace', with the simple hypothesis that the states with a republican constitutions so democracies, should all just guarantee each other security. And when they do that, then we could have an ever expanding union of peace, because nobody would ever attempt to attack such a block of countries. And we could have an ever expanding unit of peace._ _Zenna:_ _One thing that's been discussed recently, especially in the realms of internet and internet infrastructures, is the issue of centralization. In that kind of utopian image of a block of peace, one can say a block of Empire, which would then set the frame for the rest of the world._ _Noah _ _Absolutely agree. Kant said we don't need a centralized contract or institution for this. We don't need a treaty for this, this would just emerge out of enlightenment, basically, enlightened actions of, of individuals and countries, again, 18th century philosophy maybe doesn't completely explain the internet. But I think there are some interesting things when you actually apply it. _ _And again, because the internet is a very different beast. If you look at the long term trends, again, we have not achieved real peace. But overall, we live in a more peaceful world than ever before. And I think we should continue to have progress. Because right now, when we speak about the internet, we just speak a lot about, like, there's a lot of cybercrime and a cyber war between the countries and all that. And I think that what we really should aim for is really to have this this utopian vision and anon2696444391 I think that can actually happen in cyberspace, much more than in real world, think cyberspace is actually could be a much more peaceful place, then the world we live in physically. And that is because of the different dynamics of security in the cyberspace. It's very asymmetric. And it's very different from other security, thinking of like 20th century Cold War thinking, which often has been the only dominant security paradigm has been applied to the internet, because the common story is that on the internet you you don't know who's your attacker. Basically, it's very difficult to do attribution of attackers. So you just want to develop your own offensive capability and hack everyone. The superpowers that are emerging, are basically trying to copy this old patterns into this new world. First of all, I don't think that's anon2696444391 it's going to work out. And second of all, I don't think it's desirable, and it doesn't work that way. And that's because because of this asymmetry in the internet, that you don't know who your attacker, attribution is very difficult. So you can't retaliate, even if you have offensive capabilities, right? The offensive capability you have is not a deterrence against somebody else's attack, which in the physical world is very different. If you have a nuclear bomb, you know, the other person is not going to bomb you because you can bomb them back. This logic of the Cold War in that sense doesn't work anymore in the internet. A second reason for that is basically you can destroy somebody else's offensive capability by building up your own defenses. So if you do really good, actually security for yourself, and if you do security research, and you find vulnerabilities and you find zero days, then you can basically destroy the offensive capabilities of others because they rely on these vulnerabilities. And so, you know, if I have a nuclear bomb, just because you build some protection doesn't mean I don't have a nuclear bomb. But if I have a zero day, which is basically an exploit to which there is no fixes yet, and you close that, that gap, that I don't have a bomb anymore, I don't have a weapon anymore. So basically, you can take away somebody else's offensive capability by building good defenses. I think these dynamics have not been fully understood by policymakers._ _Zenna: _ _Is that something you would call sign of peace? You can build up defenses and by having a safety rather than offensive?_ _Noah: _ _Yeah, I don't think security must always be so state-centric, my vision for cyberpeace is that, basically everybody in a certain union, and it doesn't have to be a contractual union, which works towards building collective defenses. A global norm for zero day reporting, that countries that join and when they report zero days they never improve not only their security, but security of everybody else. And again, like many people might say that sounds so super idealistic. And I don't think it is, I think there are very pragmatic reasons to do so. Because if you're part of this defensive union, then you will be much safer than if you're if you don't share any of you zero days, and you twist try to get keep and build your own offensive capabilities for all the reasons that I've named, because on offensive capabilities can be destroyed by enemies, and because of having offensive capability is not a deterrent against attacks._ _Zenna: _ _So if you have a union, there must also be an 'them' outside of it? Is that what you imagine, for a utopian internet?_ _Noah: _ _Generally, I would apply this kind of Kantian idea that in the end, we want to live on a peaceful planet or in a peaceful cyberspace. My vision is that we, in the end have a safe space in the internet and we start by creating small safe spaces, and they start expanding until in the end, hopefully they cover everything. There will always be cyber attacks. But we can minimize the impact and increase the integrity of our of everybody's experience in the internet by for example, having a global norm for zero day reporting. And I find what I like about the global norm for zero day reporting is it encourages everyone to contribute to everyone's security, because you can't just close the zero day vulnerability for yourself, you do it for everyone. And at the same time, the only 'them' that basically you create is the people that don't want to work together to make everyone's experience safer. And the 'them' is basically the people that want to keep the exploits to themselves. Only the people that kind of want to be able to really attack other people systems are then kind of that that will be against. I do not have a very clear institutional setup anon2696444391 this would work, because obviously, it's very difficult to control these kind of things. So I don't it's not fully developed. But my point is more this narrative shift from we talked about a place where there's a lot of war happening, cyber war, to a place where cyber peace is possible, and where we should make sense of peace, not cyber war._ _Zenna: _ _Whose responsibility is it to make this shift happen?_ _Noah: _ _I think in the end, it's everyone's, but I think, if I should put my hope on, for example, individual institutions, I think institutions that are very well set to do this, or where I have realistic hope for this is the European Union. So if the European Union were to start such a project, where it said, okay, we, as a group of countries decided we want to start a norm, that what everyone ought to report zero days, because it's better for everyone to do that. I think that could be very powerful. And I know that the current administration, for example, in the US, which obviously controls the most powerful capability there, is not going to willing to do that. But I hope that that could change given also the large trajectory of history, I hope that it is possible. Also for other countries, I hope that they that in the same way that we didn't think it seemed impossible to ever start a counter proliferation movement in the nuclear age. And it seemed that we will for eternity, always just create more bombs to kill each other. We now actually live a world where there's still too many bombs, but at least less than 50 years ago. And in the same way, I have a hope that in 50 years, I know it's a long shot and it's not going to happen overnight. And right now, all the talks on the UN level are basically non-existent on this topic. So it's I really hope that we could live in a world where we have less, not more attacks and more integrity of everybody's devices._ _Zenna: _ _You've been working a bit with AI and machine learning, and specifically on the focus of whether it's ethical, if placed in a legal system. Do you want to expand on that?_ _Noah: _ _Yeah, of course. So I think kind of like that was my work that I started, or did two years ago that I talked about this narrative shift to cyber peace. And what I didn't like about it is that it was apart from that it was state centric, and that there were many practical problems with it and very long shot, it was still defensive, it was still like it's talking about my utopia is security or safety, which is still something like the absence of violence. That's the problem with peace. Also, you know, it's not medicine super positive, it's only that bad things are not there. And so I was like, I want something more positive than that. And and that's then where I got also more into this AI space. And because I think they're really there is opportunity to positively shape human thriving in many ways. And to unlock this potential that we need to avoid many risks that are often also discussed and that are very real. And the as I said, also, I wonder, and they I feel I don't have this super clean utopia, because someanon2696444391 every utopia that involves machines that can do more than we do, in some sense, apparently ends up being a dystopia sometimes. And so we have to still do a lot of work on which utopia, we actually want out there._ _Zenna: _ _ In your utopia, does AI exist?_ _Noah: _ _I'm a pragmatic idealist. So my someanon2696444391 my ideals are also based on my pragmatism. And I think there is not a world possible where we get rid of AI. I don't know if you heard about the unabomber, who's like a, like a guy who started basically bombing scientists, because he believed that the progress of science and technology would destroy human society. And given that I don't think that's a viable path that we will have, that we will basically live with less technology, then the question is, anon2696444391 can we shape the current trends and the current technologies that are rising to human benefit? And also maybe sometimes also, anon2696444391 can we consciously decide not to use them?_ _But overall, I'm convinced that we will get machines that will be better than humans at many tasks that currently only humans can do. Given that that's going to come, the question is, anon2696444391 do we want to do that? I think their biggest problem are, exactly about human centrism. So anon2696444391 can we make sure that they align with our values. Like that's a long term perspective, I would say all this question, which is kind of like AI governance questions that says when, for example, pioneered by Nick Bostrom, the whole ideas of what do we do when general AI actually is smarter than humans? I think these are super valuable questions to research. _ _But then there's also the short term questions, and that's what we're after dealing with these important questions of, if we already today have for example, a system that makes legal decisions, for example, in an administration and that public administration, what laws do we want to be imbued into that? Do we think it's just fine if there's some human mandate and humans and some democratically elected institution decides now we want this to be done by an AI? Or do we also think there needs to be some outputs that need to be in some material sense fair, as it just if it's if it's cheaper and faster do we just accept it? Or do we also want to actually be able to understand the process to be accessible for humans, because then many advanced machine learning programs, currently, they're black boxes for us, so we can't really understand them. _ _And the other question is, well, if it's trained on any human data, human centric data, also in that sense, then it's going to take human vices with it, and it could even aggregate them and exaggerate them. And so yeah, there's a lot of open questions, and I don't really have full answers to those yet. But my utopia is just I can only explain it in very abstract terms at this point, because there's a lot of research and thinking and testing and acting to be done on this field. But right now, it's to reap the benefits to avoid the risks, and to make sure that we humanize the technology that we live with, in the sense that in the sense that we really challenge also what it means to be human for ourselves, because I don't think we know right now what it means to be human. And if we first figure out like, or if we figure out what it means to be human, then we can also tell when we want technology to do to help us to thrive._ _Zenna: _ _Thank you so much for forth your thoughts. I'm that feeling that we will hear more from you._ _Noah: _ _Well, thank you very much for giving me this space. And I'm very grateful for your time and for your work._" 3,62581,2019-10-30T17:09:28.545Z,11282,0,9,8,1,0,0,36.8,62430,anon2682865457,anon3524690799,"It was great interviewing you! And super fascinating topics. I like bringing in the terminology of ""**cyberpeace**"" . Thank you for posting this as well, looking forwards to following any conversations which may appear! If I recall correctly there are other people on Edgeryders who are into AI as well, maybe @anon3828707713 , @anon659222949 , @anon3203746736 or @anon3379761435 knows better!" 4,63078,2019-11-05T14:10:09.514Z,11282,0,8,7,2,0,0,41.6,62431,anon2945747231,anon3524690799,"@anon3524690799 great interview. I'm Edgeryders' community journalist and have taken the liberty to edit the transcript. If you feel like this explains who you are, you can replace it as the first post here: I’m a social entrepreneur and technology researcher, currently enrolled as an MSc candidate at the Oxford Internet Institute. I’m interested in the global governance of emerging technologies, and anon2696444391 we could possibly shift the narrative shift from “cyberwar to cyber peace” as a practical utopia and a guiding north star, including internet-related technologies such as the governance of AI. My journey of becoming politically aware started when I was anon2373157426 young, I was about 12. I became passionate about figuring out anon2696444391 we can get to a world with hundred percent renewable energy as fast as possible. And that was my utopia, it really inspired me and got me going. It’s a topic that is actually now all over the world and in the headlines, but back then, it wasn’t so much. Coming from a small town in southern Germany, I travelled to different places for protests. And this what connected me to research and political institutions. But at some point, I wondered what impact have those discussions with politicians and lobbyists and activists really? In the end, anon2696444391 do both the ecological imperative and the changes we need to make globally bound by our ecological reality? Unfortunately, the economic argument has won until now. And within this political arena, I became very frustrated with it. But it also made me think: if the economic argument wins, maybe I should learn better anon2696444391 it works. That is anon2696444391 I got into business ethics, asking the question: anon2696444391 can we reimagine anon2696444391 the economy and anon2696444391 businesses work, to challenge the money making paradigm, moving towards about thriving humans and the common good — and which contributions companies should aim for. Companies can slow down due to technological developments. So, I realized that if we can get the technological change right, it could also be a good opportunity to change anon2696444391 our economy and society work for the better. Because it’s technology which are the moving pieces shaping new things, and our generation has the opportunity to co-shape these technological changes. That’s the opportunity I want to take, to use technology together with our human insights, intuitions and values, to create a more humane society and economy. ## A Tech Philosophy I find egalitarian philosophy very appealing, particular, John Rawls’ idea that freedoms should be equal and that everybody should have some basic civil liberties. When we look at material conditions and apply anon2696444391 unequal division of resources is only legitimate if it actually benefits those that are least well off — a different principle formulated by Rawls — we can see that our current system isn’t justified. It isn’t upholding that standard, in the sense that the technology is often not centered on the most vulnerable people in our communities and societies. With regards to Silicon Valley culture: start-ups often purports to save the world, but are bought by venture capitalists, which then again are owned by those who already own the world. It’s self-feeding. I find it sad that all this beautiful technology, which could be built into incredibly meaningful solutions, have to “make a profit.” For example, social media companies — they innovated, but were immediately pressured to become profitable. The copyright debate falls exactly within this sphere, although I could imagine we arrived here through different paths. The philosophy I’ve developed around these issues, means we really have to be willing to think radically different about anon2696444391 to make changes, in a massive way. I don’t like to merely complain about anon2696444391 things should be very different. I didn’t like to only talk about business ethics, so I also dived into social entrepreneurship and founded companies myself. I tried to not just talk about anon2696444391 business should be run differently, but do it. And that’s anon2373157426 difficult. The methodologies of business could be useful when applied to different ends. For example, Muhammad Yunus idea revolves around the idea that you found a social business, and use business means for social ends to solve real social problems — not for the kind of problems they’ve been conventionally associated with. One more additional thought that helped me to develop my own philosophy, is what I call pragmatic idealism: hope without critical thinking, is just naivety, but critical thinking without hope is just cynicism; confidence without humility, is just arrogance, but humility without confidence, is sheepishness; and pragmatism without idealism is just opportunism, but idealism without pragmatism is just wishful thinking. I found that pragmatism and idealism need to work together: we need to have really have ambitious goals, but also be really pragmatic about where we start. ## Reshaping the internet I have several different utopian visions on anon2696444391 to reshape the internet. During my undergrad degree in Amsterdam in Social Science, I wondered anon2696444391 international relations in global politics fits into the cyberspace which we are increasingly living in. How do we combine global politics theories with these new technologies. That’s when I came up with the idea of moving from cyber war to cyber peace. I noticed that my computer for some reason didn’t recognize cyberpeace as one word, but did recognize cyberwars. I looked it up in different word processing programs, and none of them knew cyberpeace, but all knew cyberwar. That was an interesting revelation: the vocabulary that we have in the conceptual space of the internet, is conceptualizing it as war, we don’t even know anon2696444391 to talk about it in terms of peace, because we don’t have a word for it. That obvious asymmetry means that cyber is someanon2696444391 linked to a very aggressive and violent place. Which made me realize there’s some utopia missing. To define cyber peace, we should first examine peace in the real world. The idea of world peace has always existed, but someanon2696444391 we’ve not achieved it yet. Immanual Kant argued in his 1795 called Perpetual Peace, that the states with a republican constitutions — in other words democracies — should all guarantee each other security. When they would do so, we would have an ever expanding union of peace, because nobody would ever attempt to attack such a block of countries. And we could have an ever expanding unit of peace. Decentralization is another important part. Kant argued that we don’t need a centralized contract or an institution, or a treaty: it would emerge out of the enlightened actions of individuals and countries. But perhaps 18th century philosophy doesn’t completely explain the internet, as it is a very different beast. If you look at the long term trends, we have not achieved real peace. But overall, we live in a more peaceful world than ever before. And I think we should continue to have progress in this sphere. When we speak about the internet, we often discuss cybercrime and a cyber war between countries. But what we really should aim for is to have a utopian vision ## From Cyderwar to Cyberpeace I believe cyberspace actually could be a much more peaceful place than the world we live in physically. That’s because of the different dynamics of security in cyberspace. It’s very asymmetric. And it’s very different from the 20th century Cold War thinking, which often has been the only dominant security paradigm applied to the internet. The superpowers which are emerging, are basically trying to copy these old patterns into this new world. But I don’t think that’s anon2696444391 it’s going to work out and I don’t think it’s desirable, it doesn’t work that way. That’s because because of the internet’s asymmetry. A commonly heard argument is that on the internet you don’t know who your attacker is. If you don’t know who your attacker is, you can’t retaliate, even if you have offensive capabilities. If you have a nuclear bomb, the other person is not going to bomb you because you can retaliate. This Cold War logic doesn’t work with the internet. And anyone can destroy somebody else’s offensive capability by building up their own defenses. Meaning that if you have security for yourself, and if you do security research, and you find vulnerabilities, then you can basically destroy the offensive capabilities of others — because they rely on these vulnerabilities. You don’t know if I have a nuclear bomb, and just because you build some protection doesn’t mean I don’t have a nuclear bomb. But if I have an exploit to which there are no fixes yet, and you close that gap, then I don’t have a bomb anymore, I don’t have a weapon anymore. Basically, you can take away somebody else’s offensive capability by building good defenses. I think these dynamics have not been fully understood yet by policymakers. I also believe that security could move away from being state-centric. My vision for cyberpeace is involving everyone in a certain union — and it doesn’t have to be a contractual union — which works towards building collective defenses. In other words, a global norm for “zero day” reporting in which countries report on these “zero days.” They’ll not only improve their own security, but also the security of everyone else. To many, this might sound too idealistic. But I don’t think it is. I think there are very pragmatic reasons to do so. If you’re part of this defensive union, then you will be much safer than if you’re not. Generally, I would apply Kant’s vision that, in the end, we want to live on a peaceful planet or in a peaceful cyberspace. Hopefully, the whole internet will be a safe space, but we can start by creating smaller safe spaces. There will always be cyber attacks. But we can minimize the impact and increase the integrity of everybody’s experience on the internet A global norm for “zero day” reporting encourages everyone to contribute to everyone’s security: you can’t close the vulnerability for yourself only, you’ll do it for everyone. At the same time, the only “them” are those who don’t want to work together to make everyone’s experience safer, which is basically the people that want to keep the exploits to themselves. I do not have a very clear institutional setup of anon2696444391 this would work, because obviously, it’s very difficult to control it. But my point is more on shifting the narrative from a place where a lot of war is happening — cyber war — to a place where cyber peace is possible, and where we should make sense of peace. It’s everyone’s responsibility to make this shift happen, but I think institutions such as the European Union are well equipped for it. The US’s current administration, — which obviously controls the most powerful capability — is not going to be willing right now. But, I hope that this could change given history’s trajectory. We didn’t think it would be possible to start a counter proliferation movement in the nuclear age, but we now actually live in a world with less bombs than 50 years ago. I know with the internet it’s a long shot as well, and it isn’t going to happen overnight. All the talks at the UN level are basically non-existent on this topic. But I really do hope that we could live in a world where we have less, not more, attacks and more integrity of everybody’s devices. ## On AI and Ethics When I started focusing on the narrative shift in cyber peace, I realized that besides being state centric, there were also several practical problems with it. And so I wanted something more positive than that. And that’s when I got more interested in AI, as I believe it offers an opportunity to positively shape human thriving in many ways. To unlock this potential, we need to avoid its many risks, which are often discussed and which are very real. Someanon2696444391, every utopia involving machines which can do more than we do, always ends up being a dystopia. This means we still have to do a lot of work on which utopia we actually want out there. As I’m a pragmatic idealist, my ideals are also based on my pragmatism. This means I don’t believe in a world where we get rid of AI. Let’s take as an example the unabomber, who bombed scientists, because he believed that the progress of science and technology would destroy human society. And given that I don’t think that’s a viable path — living with less technology — then the question arises: anon2696444391 can we shape the current trends and the current technologies that are benefiting humans instead? And anon2696444391 can we consciously decide not to use them? But, overall, I’m convinced that we will be able to create machines which will be better at performing certain tasks than humans are. Given that’s going to come, the question is: anon2696444391 do we want to do that? The biggest problem is related to human centrism. So, anon2696444391 can we ensure that the tech aligns with our values? When we look at AI governance questions — such as the one pioneered by Nick Bostrom: what do we do when general AI outsmarts humans? — they are extremely valuable questions to research. But we shouldn’t forget the short term questions. For example, if we have a system making legal decisions in a public administration, what laws do we want to be imbued into that? Do we want some sort of human mandate, or democratically elected institutions, or do we want this to be done by an AI? In addition, do the outputs — in the material sense — have to be fair if it’s cheaper and faster? Do we just accept that? Or, do we want to also be able to actually understand the process to be accessible for humans? This is crucial, as many advanced machine learning programs are currently black boxes to us, we can’t really understand them. The other question revolves around the idea that if it’s trained on human data, human centric data, then it’s going to take human vices with it. Even more so, it could aggregate and exaggerate them. There’s a lot of open questions, and I don’t really have all the answers of course. My utopia is anon2373157426 abstract right now, because there’s a lot of research and thinking and testing and acting to be done in this field. What we should focus on right now is to reap its benefits and avoid the risks: to ensure that we humanize the technology that we live with, in the sense that we really challenge what it means to be human ourselves. And right now, we don’t. If we first figure out what it means to be human, then we can also tell anon2696444391 we want technology to help us to thrive." 1,62856,2019-11-03T15:51:33.406Z,11346,0,21,20,32,0,0,239.2,62856,anon659222949,anon659222949," Edgeryders one of the organizations running NGI Forward, a project tasked with helping the European Commission set out a strategy, as well as a policy and research agenda for the years ahead. This forum is a part of informing that strategy. Another part of the NGI ecosystem is generous funding opportunities, like that of NGI Ledger, which just opened its second round of funding for *""16 projects to build Minimum viable products working on decentralised technologies where privacy by design, openness and citizen data sovereignty are at the core of their proposition""*. Basically, it's looking for projects focused on **decentralised algorithms** based on **blockchains** , **distributed ledger technology (DLT)** and/or **peer-to-peer (P2P) technologies**. There are successful applicants from the first round on the Edgeryders forum. @anon3554387720 and team received funding for [WorldBrain](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/introducing-oliver-worldbrain-io-memex-and-storex-democratising-knowledge/10157). [Apply to LEDGER here](https://ledger-2nd-open-call.fundingbox.com/). But first, you might want to seek advice from the community here on the platform. If you have ideas, we could help pair you up with people you might want to collaborate with or who could give you feedback on your application. Ping @anon2682865457, @anon1522032836, @anon3048848105, @anon122324738, are you working on something at the moment that could fit the bill? @anon2197402769, @anon2897324087, @anon1572937553, @anon3456498318, @anon3524690799, @anon2670920295 perhaps you know of someone who might be interested? > ## LEDGER: THE VENTURE BUILDER FOR HUMAN CENTRIC SOLUTIONS > > Ledger second open call will be opening **the 1st November and closing the 31st January 2020.** > > At LEDGER first open call we selected 16 projects over 1000 applications started and 291 submitted from over 35 countries. > > At the second open call we are **looking for another 16 projects to build Minimum viable products (MVPs) working on decentralised technologies where privacy by design, openness and citizen data sovereignty are at the core of their proposition.** > > LEDGER programme offers to the selected projects: > > * **Up to €200K equity-free for the best in class innovators** > * **A Venture Builder Programme of 12 months** > * **Technical and business mentorship along the programme** > * **Access to Venture Capital, pilots, exposure and networking** > * LEDGER is calling for **#developers #researchers #designers and #entrepreneurs** > > > ### WHO CAN APPLY? > > * **Teams** might be composed of either: > * **minimum 1 and maximum 2 legal persons ([SME](http://ec.europa.eu/growth/smes/business-friendly-environment/sme-definition_en), research organizations, foundations) with a team composed by at least **3 profiles (researcher, developer, business development/entrepreneur)** or** > * minimum **3 natural persons** (at least a **researcher, developer and business development/entrepreneur** ). > * The teams must consist of one legal entities or at least 3 natural persons **legally established in an** [ **EU member state or in Associated Countries** ](http://ec.europa.eu/research/participants/data/ref/h2020/grants_manual/hi/3cpart/h2020-hi-list-ac_en.pdf). > * **Projects** ( **Technology Transfer Experiments** ) have to be based in **Research components** , relevant for the topic of **Privacy-by-Design** , **Distributed Data Governance** and consisting in development, test and validation of technical and economic viability of **Minimum Viable Product (MVP) or Service** . > * The results of these bottom-up projects should be compliant with **Open Licences** (i.e. **Open Hardware** , **Open Software** and/or **Creative Commons** ). > > ### MORE ABOUT LEDGER > > [ **LEDGER** ](http://www.ledgerproject.eu/), a European project financed by the **European Commission** , is looking for **32 human centric innovators** to develop **Minimum Viable Products and Services** , in order to achieve **new models** that preserve **citizens’ digital sovereignty** , where **data is a common good owned by citizens** and wealth created by **data-driven platforms** is equally distributed. > > **LEDGER** is looking for **SMEs** , **organisations** and **researchers** that want to shift data management, leveraging on **decentralised algorithms** based on **blockchains** , **distributed ledger technology (DLT)** and/or **peer-to-peer (P2P) technologies** to address **Privacy-by-Design** , **reliability** , **trustworthiness** and **openness** to build **human centric solutions** . > > The 16 selected companies will go through a **9-month customised venture builder programme** receiving up to **€150K in funding** , and the best 8 will be offered **additional €50K** and will get in a **business focused programme of 3 months.** Also, ping @anon3554654177 – perhaps you could tell us a anon2488317424 about anon2696444391 the first round is panning out?" 2,62865,2019-11-03T20:06:32.197Z,11346,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,62856,anon659222949,anon659222949,"Pinging a few others who may be interested: @anon921785107, @anon1032047132, @anon3735695272, @anon3743211146, @anon1945272070, @anon1875617573, @anon3011728773, @anon2308483784 and @anon3556768308" 4,62930,2019-11-04T12:53:13.203Z,11346,0,15,14,3,0,0,33.0,62856,anon3554654177,anon659222949,"Hi Hugi, To really follow the process you have to follow the updates on ledger.eu for although I am part of dyne.org (rob@anon As you ask my opinion I'd say that it is the work in DECODE in which a provable computing environment is being developed on natural language smart contracts that is a guiding scheme, without of course enforcing this on the participants. Zenroom provides the cryptography and the sensitive data manipulation for the whole Decode project, implementing the Coconut credential scheme developed by UCL in 2018. Validation of the approach commercially is provided by the aqui-hire of Facebook of the UCL team to build LIBRA. ""In the absence of any detail on what might comprise a decentralized identity standard from Libra’s perspective, some dots can be joined by examining the recent work of George anon2071999133ezis and his co-founders at Chainspace, a startup acquired by Facebook in May."" Recently Microsoft announced their variation on a Coconut credential scheme. https://decodeproject.eu/blog/smart-contracts-english-speaker https://www.coindesk.com/buried-in-facebooks-cryptocurrency-white-paper-a-digital-identity-bombshell Accountability over anonymity characterizes this approach as it underlies society in the 20th century itself. Tokenized trust is a key feature but only in the actual locality where face to face and communities of people work and live together. Apart from innovation in code and coding practice LEDGER - a consortium of Funding Box, Bluemorpho and dyne.org, with VC, funding and business modeling expertise inside - is uncompromising when it comes to collaborative and meaningful cooperation. I was present at the kickoff on Amsterdam where Master of Ceremony anon646763613 rearranged not just physically but also conceptually the notion of information sharing, but not having teams presenting in the usual ways. Recently, in fact last week, he took it a step further and brought all teams to Sicily to work on real world problems with real people in a real location. Now, ofcourse this is what most applications are about, but making it tangible and especially exploring the granularity of everyday life sanon2696444391s the uncompromising nature of anon646763613's array of methodologies (trasformatorio) http://trasformatorio.net See for yourself: Vimeo channel: - https://vimeo.com/370356587 - https://vimeo.com/370369782 - https://vimeo.com/370371288 - https://vimeo.com/370372757 Greetings, Rob" 1,57676,2019-08-07T03:01:09.863Z,10489,0,19,18,5,0,0,167.8,57676,anon4046128282,anon4046128282," (image by Maria Euler) Hi, Edgeryders community! As a linguistic anthropologist working with newly arrived migrants and refugees in Germany, I have heard a lot from my informants about the ways in which their internet use and needs have changed since leaving their countries of origin. Many struggled to find sufficient wifi connectivity en route in order to e.g. access navigation apps and services, stay in contact with friends and family members and contact emergency services. Others reported that they did not have sufficient access to legal information (particularly in their first language). Many rely heavily on translation apps which are often not adequate or do not translate from/into their first language. These are just a few examples of internet-based issues facing current migrants and refugees. What can be done to improve internet-based services, platforms, apps, access to advocacy groups and activists and support forums? How can we think about the private/public divide in this context: anon2696444391 do we ensure quick access, user anonymity and safe networks? What are the responsibilities of content providers? How can individuals ensure that their data is protected? What is currently being done to make internet-based services better for migrants and refugees and what needs to be done?" 2,57805,2019-08-09T15:59:50.003Z,10489,1,15,14,1,0,0,28.0,57676,anon1753543892,anon4046128282,"Hello @anon4046128282, thank you very much for joining! we are very happy to have you here and your topic is very relevant. Could you maybe add an image to the post or allow me to add one so we can share it more effectively? Also, we will try to get you in contact with people to discuss your questions. Do you already know of some examples of projects, tools or apps that try to do the job, so we could start by discussing those? @anon1608948641 and @anon3554387720, do the two of you have a specific perspective or examples for anon2696444391 to help refugees and migrants in online spaces with your tools or experience?" 3,57812,2019-08-10T06:09:12.055Z,10489,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,57805,anon4046128282,anon1753543892,"Hi @anon1753543892! Thanks for helping me with this. I know very anon2488317424 about this specific area, but am interested to hear what other have to say. Many of my research informants discussed their changing internet-based habits/needs following their migration experiences. Priorities lay in fast, cheap/free communication platforms (e.g. WhatsApp, Facebook, Telegram, Signal, etc), translation software, navigation apps, money transfer sites, access to legal information, access to support networks, advocates and activists. Many also brought up concerns about protecting their data, identity and location online. The question is meant more as a general prompt to add to our discussion on NGI. What kind of an image did you mean?" 4,57821,2019-08-10T14:19:20.348Z,10489,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,57812,anon1753543892,anon4046128282,"@anon4046128282, just some kind of fitting header picture that you have the rights on. Maybe just your headline question in a nice type :). I can also do it for you if you do not have it :)" 5,57823,2019-08-11T01:06:32.795Z,10489,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,57821,anon4046128282,anon1753543892,"Hi @anon1753543892, that would be great, thank you!!" 6,57927,2019-08-13T13:42:16.092Z,10489,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,57676,anon1753543892,anon4046128282,"hello @anon4046128282, is this image fine with you?" 7,58015,2019-08-15T17:18:48.755Z,10489,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,57676,anon1753543892,anon4046128282,"@anon4046128282, we are meeting up in an online community call on Tuesday the 20th 18:00-19:00 to discuss anon2696444391 to shape our international festival with features on tech for justice, equality and sustainability. Would be a great opportunity to get to know each other more and to see anon2696444391 to develop something that is relevant :) You can join the call here: https://zoom.us/j/592769960 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-call-20th-of-august-your-chance-to-shape-the-anon1577251828-ngi-festival/10549" 8,58027,2019-08-15T23:43:18.423Z,10489,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,58015,anon4046128282,anon1753543892,"Thanks so much @anon1753543892! I will definitely try to join the call, though I'm in Canberra Australia which is 8 hours ahead of you, so it may not work. Would it make sense for the two of us to talk beforehand?" 9,58058,2019-08-16T14:51:15.183Z,10489,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,58027,anon1753543892,anon4046128282,"@anon4046128282, where are you usually based? Two weeks after we will have another similar call. If you want we can also plan and chat a bit beforehand, but I am not an expert on your topic either, so the more people are in a call to connect their knowledge and topics the better :)" 10,58078,2019-08-17T00:36:51.015Z,10489,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,58058,anon4046128282,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892, I will plan to join the next call then. I will be in NY so it will be easier! Looking forward to talking soon!" 11,62684,2019-10-31T16:29:10.003Z,10489,0,9,8,2,0,0,26.8,57676,anon1753543892,anon4046128282,"@anon4046128282 maybe the ""small data"" approach described in opposition to the so often buzzed ""big data"" as described in this article about designing tech for assault survivors is useful for you: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/can-tech-design-for-survivors-anon2696444391-sex-violence-and-power-are-encoded-into-the-design-and-implementation-of-data-ai-driven-sexual-misconduct-reporting-systems/11193/3" 12,62730,2019-11-01T09:31:57.766Z,10489,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,57676,anon3828707713,anon4046128282,"Hi @anon4046128282 If you want to find out I suggest hanging out at Chaos Communication Club in Berlin and asking around. People there will be plugged into various activist efforts they may not want to talk about publicly... But one group that has been public about their efforts are Freifunk. One issue here is surveillance - I would say that at the moment the balance between benefits if connectivity on the one sige and on the other side danger posed to refugees especially people without papers is unclear. One approach I really love is that of my students . The privacy-by-design approach of having only physical - not connected artefacts is one that keeps the internet at arms length. Also it reminds us that a a crucial facilitator of meeting needs is a kind of social engineering rather than tech... https://vimeo.com/manage/177993825" 13,62731,2019-11-01T09:34:54.951Z,10489,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,57676,anon3828707713,anon4046128282,Another good resource is the repository of anon1577251828 community members work on this topic - https://anon1577251828.eu/c/knowledge/migration 14,62752,2019-11-01T20:54:06.760Z,10489,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,62730,anon4046128282,anon3828707713,"Thank you for this, @anon3828707713. I actually have contacts at Chaos already, and will explore this more through them!" 15,86885,2020-11-13T14:41:20.690Z,10489,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,57676,anon1753543892,anon4046128282,"@anon4046128282, was this post before you joined the team?" 1,61746,2019-10-20T12:53:06.194Z,11193,1,25,24,21,0,0,297.0,61746,anon2594087572,anon2594087572,"I’m a PhD researcher at Oxford Internet Institute, studying the intersection of gender-based violence and emerging technologies. I’ve been working on gender-based violence response for a anon2488317424 over a decade now, and have been focussing on issues of trust and gender, sexual politics, and anon2696444391 the role of emerging technologies in that. I want to facilitate meaningful connections between stakeholders, anticipate emergent harms, and ensure these conversations center on survivors and practitioners. My personal trajectory into this research topic goes way back. I owe much of my gender consciousness to growing up in a bilingual and bicultural household as a Korean American immigrant. My family moved to the US from South Korea when I was 11-years-old, and it exposed me to two different systems of gender. Through that, I was able to develop my own kind of consciousness about anon2696444391 both gender and culture are not fixed. In college, I became involved with the campus sexual assault/Title IX movement, organizing it on my own campus. And I spent about six months essentially doing a qualitative research by talking to different student groups to figure out what happens when a student experiences sexual assault and the extent to which the university does or doesn’t take responsibility and provide resources for that. This coincided with a national movement which led to the [Obama administration's policy reform in 2014](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/01/22/memorandum-establishing-white-house-task-force-protect-students-sexual-a). Much of the national organizing relied heavily on social media, specifically Facebook groups to build coalition and share best practices. This happened to coincide with growing cultural awareness of social media as a potential tool for movement and community building. The downside of that that none of us really anticipated going in was cyberharassment. It was in the early days of[ Gamergate](https://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for-non-geeks-1642909080). And that is what made me interested in the role of technology: its double-edged role in facilitating connections but also targeted harassment. Fast forward to five years, and I’m doing a research project on the role of technology in sexual misconduct reporting. And that has been my path ever since, looking at the ways in which we can be imaginative in thinking about bodily auanon2863106368omy, care, and intimacy; anon2696444391 to translate that to political solidarity; and anon2696444391 that can be operationalized into actionable policy to hold institutions accountable; and the role of new technologies in that process. **Lessons from anti-rape organizing and cyberharassment** When I started organizing against campus sexual violence, it required me to spend a lot of time online to research, draft guidelines, connect with organizers in other campuses and organizations, etc. Almost immediately, I realized there were many communities of misogynist men who would actively track the discourse on sexual violence, and then directlytarget young activists who became national figureheads. They’d constantly barrage us, saying we were liars, or that we didn’t know what we were talking about. It was deeply unsettling. I distinctly remember trying to report some cyberharassment I received. It felt different from other forms of harassment I had experienced before.. I would open my phone or my laptop, and the red notification butanon2863106368 would just glare at me. Because it was anonymous and online, it felt like I was constantly being watched. I felt completely at a loss as to anon2696444391 to even respond to it. I decided to report to the campus police and I remember being told it was my fault for having online accounts online, “Oh, you wrote something online? Well, we can’t really do anything.” I knew that this was the common response to cyberharassment, let alone non-tech facilitated harassment. Victims are always told that they should watch out, they should be more vigilant and judicious. I knew nothing would be done so I dropped my report. I know that there are some resources available today, but they remain individualized defensive strategies. We need to listen to the victims and activists of cyberharassment and tech-facilitated abuse to fundamentally change anon2696444391 we conceptualize these issues. It’s built into the design of the Internet we have today, and until we change the platforms, it’s only gonna get worse. It’s been about six or seven years since we’ve first started organizing on different campuses across the US. We formed a network that’s now become a nonprofit organization called [Know Your IX](https://www.knowyourix.org/). It started with a handful of us and it’s been incredible to see this network of college students grow into a leading organization of young people combatting gender-based violence. Some are lawyers now, some are academics, and some are no longer in the space. Burning out is a real deterrent in this space, unfortunately. We lose our most vocal and critical people because we don’t have the structure in place for them to reflect and grow. And all this while battling PTSD and other mental health challenges, and as the cyberharassment keeps clogging your inbox. We know that this kind of environment has a chilling effect on who decides to speak where. Research sanon2696444391s again and again that women, especially women of color, tend to self-censor. But I think the issue extends beyond cyberharassment and hate speech. Youth organizing increasingly requires public visibility. We are asking young people to put themselves out on the Internet to face a barrage of hateful speech in order to commodify themselves in the name of social justice. I know, for myself, I found the constant expectation of visibility extremely constraining and harmful. I made a conscious decision to shift to research because I find that level of scholarly distance to be a more meaningful way to converse with an audience I can challenge and trust. I realize that’s an extremely privileged option, and I really hope that we move beyond the visibility-oriented model of organizing. It asks too much of our organizers with anon2488317424 or no safeguarding in place. **Can tech design for survivors?** My doctoral research takes an ethnographically-informed approach to interrogate anon2696444391 assumptions about sex, violence, and power are encoded into the design and implementation of data/AI-driven sexual misconduct reporting systems. In the case of campus sexual assault in the US, there has been an influx of digital systems designed to facilitate disclosures, collect evidence, and automate reporting. These systems are attractive to institutions, because they seem to be an easy fix to a difficult problem: having an internal grievance procedure, making sure it’s a fair process, etc. This is especially true right now in a politically charged environment with #metoo and the Trump administration. To victims, who have very reasonable considerations to distrust their institutions — maybe because of their prior experiences of not being heard, or because they feel isolated, or because they fear retaliation — these technologies are perceived to be objective and neutral third parties. Unfortunately, there are flaws in anon2696444391 these systems are designed and anon2696444391 they’re applied. They are designed by humans. This means biases are encoded into the design of the systems, especially about what sexual harassment or violence looks like, or what a real victim is. And when they’re applied within a politically charged and socially laden environment, they of course have discriminatory, exclusionary and unjust implications. I’ve conducted three years of ethnographically informed interviews with system designers, web users, and with institutional adopters — both frontend and backend users. The recurring narrative is that because this is data- and automation-driven, it is objective, it’s neutral, it’s secure. It very much feeds into the collective imagination of technologies as non-human and therefore, trustworthy. Interestingly, there’s actually some behavioral science suggesting that because of this perception, victims are more likely to disclose earlier on and seek help earlier on, when they’re talking to a digital interface rather than a human. Part of it stems from the erosion of trust in traditional institutions and law enforcement, especially when it comes to sexual violence. Especially in the #metoo era, a lot of people, especially women, especially women of color, have very legitimate reasons to doubt that their institutions have their backs. And that’s especially a serious issue when it comes to sexual violence, because the two most important factors in a survivors decision to report are: * you need to be able to name what you experienced as a wrong. A lot of survivors don’t, because they think their experience wasn’t ‘real’ or ‘bad’ enough. * you need to believe that you will be believed when you do decide to disclose. Many, especially those from communities with historically charged relationship with law enforcement, don’t. People harbor serious distrust in their institutions and for good reasons. Tech positions itself as the solution to this problem of institutional distrust. Big Tech has successfully presented itself as the reliable and ideal alternative to the failures of traditional institutions. Because many people harbor reasonable distrust towards traditional institutions and don’t necessarily understand tech systems, Big Tech can be really appealing. I’ve really struggled with this aspect, which comes up in my fieldwork over and over again. When you have been dismissed, interrogated, and vilified by traditional institutions of law enforcement all your life, why would you want to turn to them in your moment of need? Without alleviating these institutions from their history of inequality and injustice, what does meaningfully distinguish them from Big Tech is that they are, by design, accountable to public interest. The same can’t be said for Big Tech. So, then, anon2696444391 do these systems fail to work? Consider anon2696444391 these reporting tools categorize sexual violence. In general, the reporting interface will ask few descriptive questions about who, when, where and an open response form asking ‘describe what happened.’ Around this point, forms generally provide the option for the user to select a category of sexual misconduct that applies to them. It may appear as a drop-down menu or checkboxes. Some may enable you to select more than one option, say, ‘racial profiling’ and ‘sexual harassment.’ Some may only allow for one category. Some may not even have a category that applies to you. This is often the case with experiences of non-physical/sexual violence, like stalking and partner abuse. This means that, if your experience of sexual harassment is different from system designer’s understanding of sexual harassment, you may not even be able to input your experience. This bias actively leaves out certain people’s experiences, because its designers are working with a very particular narrative of anon2696444391 they understand what violence is. So, then, what actually could be a useful use of tech? There have been a few interesting efforts of trying to create apps or automated system, for people to collect evidence pertaining to tech facilitated harassment in a way that that would be legally admissible. But for those the victim would still have to go through three years of chat history with their abuser. Instead, let’s figure out a method to automate that process. Not only is it a traumatizing experience, but also a lot of victims don’t have the data literacy to be able to doso. When I was working at a domestic violence clinic in Los Angeles, for example, most of our clients were single, undocumented mothers who didn’t speak English, with very low tech literacy. But they would bring screen grabs, they would have to sit through and waded through years of stuff, and they get extremely overwhelmed by tech, and for good reasons. Of course, that’s something that tech could actually make easier. **A case against reporting** Part of the problem with the design and implementation of these reporting systems is that there is such a fixation on reporting. Data on sexual violence tends to privilege and reinforce reporting as the ideal outcome for survivors. The methodological reason is that data on sexual violence is very difficult to collect, as it relies on self-disclosure and poses ethical challenges, so researchers and policymakers look to reporting data. The social reason is that we see reporting as an active outcome and dismiss others as less legitimate. But help-seeking is an extremely iterative and continuing process. It takes victims usually six months to 11 months to even disclose it to anybody, before formally reporting it. And formal reporting is also not necessarily the best outcome for a lot of people: you might share kids with your assailant, you might be worried about their immigration status, or you might just want them to face consequences that don’t involve them going away to jail. Thinking about help-seeking and thinking about recovery is often done in a very narrow way: “have you reported that?” “go to the police” and that’s when you’ll get better. This attitude gets encoded into the design of reporting systems. Constant notifications and nudges are baked into the flow of the interface to incentivize the user to consider formal reporting. The system vendors seem to think that automated and data-driven tools will point the user to one optimal solution--reporting. But this is incredibly misguided. Survivors are not a monolithic group: their experiences of violence, access to resources, recovery process, and ideas of justice are extremely diverse. And this multiplicity should be appreciated, because it gives the society a more robust and relational way of thinking about justice. But the way that reporting tools are designed does not allow for this. In addition, a lot of these systems are technically for everyone, but they’re usually only adopted by, and used for, privileged and tech savvy English speaking users. For example, workplace harassment system tools are for everybody, which should include anitorial workers, temp workers, contract workers. But they are written out of these systems because they are rarely identified as a potential user or their employment contracts subject them to a different grievance procedure. **Doing more with ‘small data’** In my research, I make a case for de-emphasizing reporting. This posed a methodological challenge in conducting my research. How do I gather data about survivors’ help-seeking experience without relying on reporting data? As I said, we already know that the data we have tends to privilege people who were successful in going through the legal system to report their incidents. This means that victim demographic information and the incidents, assault information, and legal recourse are already extremely partial. The reporting tools I study build their systems based on that data. The data we use reinforce the privileging of reporting as the ideal outcome for survivors. What would it mean for me, then, as a researcher to rely on reporting data? This is why I turned to qualitative research and '[small data.](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1369118X.2012.678878)'Having a structured conversation with all the different people involved in the design and application process provides better data about reporting systems’ impact and implications. It might take me several emails, many referrals, and several weeks of relationship building, but the conversations I have with each participant is so rich and insightful and telling, much more than what I could get if I were to do a survey or something. **De-glammorize tech** Even after discussing anon2696444391 and why tech solutions to sexual misconduct reporting fails us, the question I often get is: anon2696444391 can we improve the tech we have so that their ‘failures’ and ‘shortcomings’ can be overcome? To me, this belief that tech can be improved to perfection to the point of replacing human actors is so fundamentally misguided. At the end of the day, these reporting tools are essentially case management systems. The vendors market themselves as a revolutionary innovation to ‘combat seuxal violence’ and ‘empower survivors.’ But combating violence and supporting survivors comes from sustained collective action. No new system can or will be able to do that. Rather than asking anon2696444391 tech can be fixed for the better, the more urgent and important question is: who and what are we overlooking when we turn to tech solutions? Social workers, administrators, advocates and activists, and scholars spend years becoming experts in violence prevention and response so that they can serve survivors better. How much money, time, and energy are not going to them, when we spend those resources on tech? These are the people who work directly with victims and are in the best position to inform policies and practices. We should trust what they have to say, because they have experience and have demonstrated that they have the public’s interest. The same can’t be said for tech solutions. The shiny new tech can seem like it can offer accuracy and objectivity. But they can’t because they are built by people based on data collected by people. From design to implementation, every point is inculcated with bias. This is not to say that there is no place for data-driven tools. But when we de-glam tech, we can see it for what it is--it’s a tool to help us connect, communicate, and make informed decisions. This is why we need to support practitioners in anti-violence space, like social workers, jurors and judges, and advocates, with data and tech literacy, so that they have control over anon2696444391 they interpret and act on data. **Burning question:** How can we support practitioners in anti-violence space, like social workers, jurors and judges, and advocates, with data and tech literacy, so that they have control over anon2696444391 they interpret and act on data? ## Post a thoughtful comment below ahead of the **[workshop on AI & Justice ](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326)** on November 19! This will help us to prepare good case studies for exploring these topics in detail. It will also ensure participants are at least a bit familiar with one another's background and experiences around the topics at hand." 2,62550,2019-10-30T15:07:39.058Z,11193,0,22,21,1,1,0,54.4,61746,anon3379761435,anon2594087572,"Wow, @anon2594087572, what a post! I had managed to miss it. Very, very interesting work. As far as I can tell, there are two main threads here. The first is that the Internet's architecture facilitates collective action. This is true for the good action of the anti-harassment activists, but also for the bad action of cyberharassers: [quote=""anon2594087572, post:1, topic:11193""] I realized there were many communities of misogynist men who would actively track the discourse on sexual violence, and then directlytarget young activists who became national figureheads. They’d constantly barrage us, saying we were liars, or that we didn’t know what we were talking about. [...] **It’s built into the design of the Internet we have today, and until we change the platforms, it’s only gonna get worse**. [/quote] The second thread is one I am more familiar with: understanding data. Like all data, reporting data are not a a faithful reconstruction of the phenomenon underpinning them (harassment), but just one, very partial, proxy for that phenomenon. And, like all data, they carry the risk of shifting all the attention onto the proxy, and away from the thing itself. We make what we measure, and if we measure reporting, we will end up acting only on what is being reported. Both these threads, I believe, are relevant to a discussion on a new Internet of humans. For the first one, I have a curiosity: anon2696444391 did people in the anti-harassment movement, like yourself, respond to the discovery that the Internet was both empowering them *and* putting them under pressure? Were people calling for more policing of the Internet? Or dreaming to go all crypto, and take solace in anonymity? Or what? For the second one, what I read in your post is a promising effect and a warning. The promising effect is that, it I understand correctly, people are more likely to report harassment episodes if they do it online. But even here, anon2696444391 can we be sure that the increased likelihood is not a function of the credibility of the follow-up downstream of reporting? After all, you yourself point out that many people are mistrustful of institutions; a highly structured Internet funnel might offer some more guarantees, as caseloads and queues of people processing reports are monitored. If a report lands in your inbox, and is not processed in a reasonably short time, you will surely hear from your manager! And the warning is, of course, that what you are looking at here is not reporting of harassment, but harassment itself. And plenty of it happens even in the absence of reporting: we ned to make sure we do not lose track of that. Am I reading your correctly? What are your thoughts on my questions?" 3,62683,2019-10-31T16:20:11.442Z,11193,0,22,21,5,0,0,89.4,61746,anon1753543892,anon2594087572,"@anon1608948641 (https://anon1577251828.eu/t/social-media-is-broken-lets-do-better/10017) this seems like a post you might be interested in since you also explore anon2696444391 to carefully create safe online environments not just through pure tech solution but by cleverly including also well-equiped moderators. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/managing-communications-an-attempted-glossary/10391 And @anon2594087572, what is your take on this approach based on your personal experiences as well as research?:https://anon1577251828.eu/t/sex-tech-conference-in-berlin/10118 Would also recommend @anon4046128282 to have a look at this article here :)" 4,62714,2019-10-31T19:55:42.744Z,11193,0,21,20,2,0,0,29.2,61746,anon3203746736,anon2594087572,A most fascinating post. I have picked up also from the internet-of-things crowd that there is a problematic amount of bias built into products for the home and public spaces. @anon3086952555? 5,62744,2019-11-01T14:51:12.686Z,11193,0,21,20,5,0,0,89.2,61746,anon3086952555,anon2594087572,"Wow, this is a super fascinating post. Thank you for sharing this, and for your work in this space. You probably know these cases, but since some others in this thread seemed interested also in related/relevant/analogous examples from (kind of, at least structurally) adjacent areas including IoT and AI, here are a few that might be interesting in the sense that I hope they complement your argument: * At our most recent annual ThingsCon conference (2018), Manon den Dunnen shared her experience of reporting gone bad through unintented consequences when police officers would exchange phone numbers with both victims of crimes as well as suspects, and the Facebook apps would often do its network matching/contact proposal thing and *directly propose to connect victim and suspect/perpetrator*. It's anon2373157426 horrific, and a super important case study about data minimization and network mining (it's also a short video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6MRVQG8Vh0 * A number of studies have sanon2696444391n algorithmic bias at its worst where policing and/or justice related algorithms were trained on training sets that had massively racist data points, including statistics created based on policing behavior that was deemed illegal/racist by courts at the time, but someanon2696444391 remained part of the data sets. (AI Now Institute has mentioned this multiple times across their annual AI Now reports.) * NYC's policing algorithm (in)famously measures effectiveness by fairly simply metrics like numbers of arrests and severity of the causes of arrests. This has created horrific incentives for police to report highly selectively so as not to ruin their (perceived) performance, including going so far as to structurally intimidate rape victims to change their charges from rape to minor offenses. The podcast [Reply All had a mini series](https://gimletmedia.com/sanon2696444391s/reply-all/o2hx34) on it that's very accessible. Those just came to mind and maybe they're helpful for some of the people reading here. And I couldn't agree more with your conclusion that tech won't be the solution to a complex social issue such as this. Thanks again @anon2594087572 for sharing this." 6,86886,2020-11-13T14:42:24.301Z,11193,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,61746,anon1753543892,anon2594087572,@anon2594087572was this before you joined the team? 7,86926,2020-11-14T01:43:35.017Z,11193,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,86886,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,Yes that was before she joined. 1,62701,2019-10-31T18:12:06.940Z,11327,0,15,14,24,0,0,183.0,62701,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Dear community members, **This post will try to provide a bit of an overview of some of the main ongoing current discussions as well as to communicate some of the feedback, findings and suggestions from our Ethnography Team.** First to introduce the role of the Ethnography Team here at Edgeryders: It is hard to put into a short description what Edgeryders is doing for and with you and the world, because it is and can be so many things, which is one of the reasons why we are discussing this very thing in a kind of “meta-discussion” with you here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/why-to-edgeryder/10385 If you can give us your take on “why to edgeryder, that would be great! **However, one of the key things we are doing is Semantic Social Network Analysis** (SSNA), [see video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_DoEa3lcBE&feature=youtu.be), which means that a team of ethnographers and coder read all the discussions here on the platform, analyse them, identify topics and use an algorithm to identify connections and patterns in discussions which we can use to research anon2696444391 to improve our communication, but also to find new venues for the discussions themselves. These network analysis put into graphics look for example like this: ![|624x295](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/Shd0SfcE9nXR0UpM-g_DyXzg1EiumkmqFKpHo97WHS-6_i2eWBk-WFItyUUKMjaDvqYnIuiSuZck8aqsZVcBO1TqwYACgHmZMKOHYVFu1VDrFiSuF6DWm1XefkwCfQVo5fAqbQWy) This one is from the preliminary results report of the current NGI conversations @anon2559300400 [just posted here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/ngi-ethnography-preliminary-results-for-community-members/11325?u=anon2559300400). _**She raises two very interesting points in that report:**_ **1. We need to try to define the term “DEEP GREEN TECH” with some concrete examples, with terms that do not require absolute expertise in specific fields to enable proper cross discipline discussion and face the issue of anon2696444391 to deal with the underlying tension between acknowledging the ecological costs of the tech industry and findings ways to develop technological tools to protect the climate.** [quote="anon2559300400, post:1, topic:11325"] Several current threads revolve around the notion of Deep Green Tech. While there is a lot of interesting discussion around this concept, it has yet to be clearly defined by the community. From what we can gather so far, Deep Green Tech is similar to Deep Tech, describing mainly startup companies based on substantial scientific research and innovations in tech engineering. Deep Green Tech, broadly, seems to describe technology that is ecologically sustainable, innovative and based on scientific advancements. The concept of Deep Green Tech appears to be a central area of focus for the NGI Forward community, but there seems to be ongoing discussions to clarify confusion around the term’s definition, its ramifications and implications. As a result, we want to help cut through the opacity of these discussions by working with you to understand anon2696444391 you define the term while also asking you to give concrete examples of its application, e.g. in design, research, tech innovation etc. In this way, we think we might all move toward a deeper and more productive discussion of the futures we want to see. [/quote] [quote="anon2559300400, post:1, topic:11325"] Interestingly (and perhaps conversely), explorations of the relationship between the climate and the internet/tech appears to be in its infancy, and though we are working with a community of experts, there often seems to be a struggle to solidly define key terms and concepts. Despite expertise, or perhaps because of it, specificity in defining technologies and technological areas requiring increased research focus persists across stories, meaning that you might find defining targeted and specific problems around these areas difficult as well. Also of interest, many of you find an underlying tension between acknowledging the ecological costs of the tech industry and findings ways to develop technological tools to protect the climate. [/quote] **2. We need to include more of our personal experience, motivations and examples in our stories, thoughts, ideas and project presentations and discussions. Your views on the topic are surely interesting, but knowing what brought you to start thinking about it and what shaped your ideas is what will enable us to not only connect but also to discuss and research on a deeper level!** [quote="anon2559300400, post:1, topic:11325"] Interestingly (and perhaps conversely), explorations of the relationship between the climate and the internet/tech appear to be in its infancy, and though we are working with a community of experts, there often seems to be a struggle to solidly define key terms and concepts. Despite expertise, or perhaps because of it, specificity in defining technologies and technological areas requiring increased research focus persists across stories, meaning that you might find defining targeted and specific problems around these areas difficult as well. Also of interest, many of you find an underlying tension between acknowledging the ecological costs of the tech industry and findings ways to develop technological tools to protect the climate. [/quote] [quote="anon2559300400, post:1, topic:11325"] If we can find such parallels on the Internet (rather than ‘what does the future look like to you’?), instead of ‘tell us about the last time something online upset you, and why?’ (or other questions along those lines, around sustainability for example) we might all get a deeper understanding. [/quote] **_Therefore, do not just tell us about your great idea, project or view on the Internet, but also tell us about the situation that first made you think about this and concrete examples that make it relevant to you personally :)!_** **A great example of combining this kind of personal story, motivation and research approach is this post from @anon https://anon1577251828.eu/t/can-tech-design-for-survivors-anon2696444391-sex-violence-and-power-are-encoded-into-the-design-and-implementation-of-data-ai-driven-sexual-misconduct-reporting-systems/11193 It is based on an interview that @anon2945747231 made with @anon Another great Interview article in preparation for that event is this one on civil social advocacy in the digital age by @anon https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-does-the-future-of-civil-society-advocacy-look-like-given-the-prevalence-of-these-digital-technologies-and-their-impact-on-the-work-that-civil-society-is-currently-doing/11118 **As mentioned above, one of our main topics currently is Deep Green Tech. Some examples to related discussions are these:** Here we discuss the general direction of DEEP GREEN RESEARCH here at Edgeryders: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-do-we-weave-together-the-threads-of-various-conversations-we-are-having-around-a-deep-green-transition-and-what-are-our-next-steps/10775 And here is an environmental tech incubator from COAT lab looking for proposals: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/environmental-tech-incubator-in-barcelona-looking-for-forest-protection-regeneration-projects/11197 _Also looking for proposals:_ @anon3554387720 ‘s Hackathon: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-berlin/10769 Post you proposal here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/about-the-propose-a-hackathon-project-category/10956 And This P2P online incubation program by @anon2252645440: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/oci-labs-online-p2p-incubator-for-menas-youth/10249/2 **Last but not least I want to encourage you to look into the future of economics with the soon coming up SCi_fi Economic event on the 11th of November In Brussels:** https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-science-fiction-economics-lab-brussels-november-11th/10794 _And finally, a reminder that you can find an overview of all the Festival events on this minisite:_ https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/ And Sign up for an event via the Butanon2863106368 on that site or this link: https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/festival/ticket **Please also share those great articles, events and opportunities with your interested friends and networks beyond Edgryders and encourage them to join the discussion :).** We are always looking forward to hearing more from you!" 2,62707,2019-10-31T18:50:53.785Z,11327,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,62701,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Overview wise, do you guys think I should leave the quotes from the report in or take them out to make it easier to read the whole thing?" 3,62709,2019-10-31T19:44:21.575Z,11327,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,62707,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"I think you should leave them there, they give a lot of context/make it richer" 4,62734,2019-11-01T10:01:25.886Z,11327,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,62709,anon2559300400,anon3828707713,"I'm pretty sure my community post is in the locked workspace, so if you want to link to it we should move it out. I can do that if you can fix the link in your post @anon1753543892" 5,62735,2019-11-01T10:02:29.516Z,11327,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,62734,anon2559300400,anon2559300400,"Fixed both, link is working now." 1,62399,2019-10-28T15:17:45.925Z,11275,0,10,9,2,0,0,12.0,62399,anon3747875924,anon3747875924,"Great [project](http://sharingandcaring.eu/), just wrote a survey of the sharing economy in Germany for the network (will post when it comes out). STSM opportunity might be of interest to some egderyders, happy to host a research project here at [xm:lab](https://www.xmlab.org/research) if there is interest: **Short Term Scientific Missions – Call 2/2019-20** **COST Action - “From Sharing To Caring: Examining Socio-Technical Aspects of the Collaborative Economy""** **Deadline: November 25th 2019, (Midnight, Brussels Time) for proposed STSM to take place before the 30th of April 2020** http://sharingandcaring.eu/grant/short-term-scientific-mission-stsm-grants **STSM Committee** Prof. Luigina Ciolfi (Chair) Prof. Sergio Nasarre-Aznar Dr. Vasilis Kostakis **What Are STSMs?** Short Term Scientific Missions (STSMs) are exchange visits aimed at supporting researchers’ individual mobility, strengthening existing networks and fostering collaboration. STSMs are intended especially, but not solely, for young researchers. An STSM should specifically contribute to the scientific objectives of the COST Action “Sharing And Caring”, while enabling those partaking in the missions to establish new partnerships, learn new techniques, gain access to specific data, instruments and / or methods not available in their own institutions / organisations. **Who can apply?** STSMs are open for PhDs, PostDocs, and advanced career researchers employed at institutions in countries participating in “Sharing AndCaring”, or at approved institutions. STSMs must be performed between COST countries - researchers cannot apply for an STSM within their own country. Priority will be given to Early Career Investigators (ECI) (maximum 8 years since obtaining their PhD at the time of application) and PhD students working on socio-technical aspects of the collaborative economy. Particular consideration will also be given to candidates moving from/to COST Inclusiveness Target Countries (ITCs), which include Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Esanon2863106368ia, Croatia, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Luxembourg, Malta, Montenegro, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia, Slovakia, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Serbia and Turkey. International COST participants may host STSM researchers from European COST countries but may not apply for STSMs themselves. Awards throughout the annual grant period (for the third year: 1st May 2019- 30th April 2020) will be made to support scientific excellence, and to support a variety of researchers in terms of gender, career stage, affiliation, and nationality. **What can you apply for?** You can apply for a short term scientific mission of the duration between 5 and 90 days (and up to 180 days if the applicant is an ECI) to take place before April 30th 2020. The STSM will be a fixed grant to cover part of the travel expenses and living allowance. The cost of research materials is not eligible for consideration as part of the grant. Please note that the awarded grant will be paid only after the STSM has been completed – therefore the applicant must have approval and prior financial support e.g., from their own institution. The following funding conditions apply and must be respected: ● up to a max of EUR2500 in total can be afforded to each successful STSM applicant; ● up to a max of EUR160 per day can be afforded for accommodation & meal expenses; ● for ECIs, a max amount of EUR3500 can be afforded to the Grantee for STSMs with a duration of between 91 & 180 days – For ECIs partaking in STSMs with a duration of between 5 & 90 days, the limit is EUR2500; STSM activities must occur in their entirety within the dates specified in this call. STSM awards may be combined with other funding sources, but these must be acknowledged in the application. In your application, you will have to describe the goal of the proposed STSM, anon2696444391 it contributes to the scientific remit of the COST Action “Sharing And Caring”, the planned expenses and the outputs planned as result of the STSM. For ECIs, two support letters by advanced career researchers will be required. For detailed rules regarding eligibility and financial support, please see the relevant sections of the COST Vademecum ([ *http://www.cost.eu/download/COSTVademecum* ](http://www.cost.eu/download/COSTVademecum) *)* . **When can you apply?** You can apply until Midnight (Brussels Time) on the 25th of November 2019. **How can you apply?** This is a step-by-step guide to applying for an STSM and the criteria by which STSM applications will be assessed. More in-depth information can be found at the COST Vademecum ([ *http://www.cost.eu/download/COSTVademecum* ](http://www.cost.eu/download/COSTVademecum) *)* . Please contact Prof Luigina Ciolfi (STSM coordinator) ([l.ciolfi@anon The application process is as follows: 1. Applicants must carefully read the funding rules detailed in Section 7 of the *COST* H2020 *Vademecum, Section 7 (* [ *http://www.cost.eu/download/COSTVademecum* ](http://www.cost.eu/download/COSTVademecum) *)* 2. Applicants must submit an application using e-COST https://e-services.cost.eu/user/login/STSM. If you do not already have an e-COST account you will first need to 'create an account' - which will include providing the details of the bank account where the grant will be lodged if your STSM application is approved and the STSM successfully completed. 3. Applicants must obtain a letter of invitation from the Host Institution confirming that they can undertake the STSM on the given dates should their application be approved. 4. Applicants must complete, submit and download their STSM application online at: https://e-services.cost.eu/stsm. 5. Applicants also **must** send their application form and the relevant supporting documents for evaluation by email directly to Prof. Luigina Ciolfi ([l.ciolfi@anon The list of supporting documents to be submitted for the evaluation are: ● Letter of invitation to the applicant from a senior Researcher at the Host institution. ● The submitted STSM application form (downloadable when the online application is submitted - see 4 above). ● A letter including an overview of the proposed activities that will be performed, a workplan for the visit, a description of the proposed contributions to the scientific objectives of the “SharingAndCaring” Action, an outline of the host's scientific expertise/resources in support of the STSM. The letter should be *maximum 8 pages, the font should correspond to Times New Roman size 12 pt with single line spacing and standard margins of 2 cm.* ● A letter of support from the Applicant’s Home Institution. ● A Full C.V. (including a list of academic publications – if applicable). 6. The “Sharing And Caring” STSM panel organises assessment of the STSM proposal: STSM selection team assess the proposal (see ‘STSM Selection Criteria’) – may seek expert but impartial advice to inform their decision. If approved, the STSM coordinator sends application and approval to Grant Holder & Action Chair for final check. 7. The Grant Holder sends the applicant a grant letter to sign and return. The STSM should not be started until this letter has been signed and returned. 8. After the STSM, the investigator submits a scientific report to the STSM Host and STSM coordinator within 30 days of completing the STSM. This must include: the purpose of the mission; description of work carried out; description of main results/outputs; plan of future collaborations with Host (if applicable); planned publications resulting from STSM (if applicable); confirmation of successful STSM by Host. 9. STSM Coordinator and Action Chair approve the final report. The Grant Holder executes payment to STSM Applicant. **Criteria for Awarding STSM** STSM funding will be awarded according to the COST key principles of: ● Excellence ● Inclusivity ● Balance Criteria for evaluation will be as follows: ● The relevance and application of the research to the field of the Action – a detailed work plan will help determine if the scientific aims of the work will be relevant and applicable to the Action’s aims (1-5 points). ● The quality and clarity of the proposed research - The STSM application should be of high quality, arguing clearly and cogently the importance and timeliness of the research (1-5 points). ● The choice of Host institution – the applicant must give specific scientific reasons for visiting their chosen Host institution. We will also be tracking the geographical distribution of the Host institutions to ensure there is an evenly-spread network for knowledge transfer. Involvement of ITC countries will be a plus (1-5 points). ● The home institution of the researcher – We will take into account the number of applications from each institution to ensure a fair spread of researches across the network. Involvement of ITC countries will be a plus (1-5 points) ● The profile of the researcher – We will take into account the researcher’s potential of successfully completing the STSM on the basis of their previous work and achievements commensurate to their career stage. In line with COST policy, we will preferentially award STSMs to early career investigators (PhD + <8 years). This should not discourage more experienced researchers from applying (1-5 points). ● For ECIs, the support provided by senior colleagues ● The publication/output potential of the research carried out – Based on the STSM work plan and detailed publication/output plan (1-5 points)." 2,62423,2019-10-28T21:53:46.530Z,11275,0,8,7,1,0,0,36.6,62399,anon3828707713,anon3747875924,Hallo :) This might be relevant for @anon2794261635 to know about! 3,62674,2019-10-31T15:40:24.354Z,11275,0,6,5,2,0,0,56.2,62399,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"@anon2594087572 is this potentially interesting for you or someone you know? You certainly touch on some real caring and approach your advocacy through research as one can read in this amazing article: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/can-tech-design-for-survivors-anon2696444391-sex-violence-and-power-are-encoded-into-the-design-and-implementation-of-data-ai-driven-sexual-misconduct-reporting-systems/11193" 1,61833,2019-10-21T13:44:21.489Z,11203,0,6,5,3,0,0,16.2,61833,anon3828707713,anon3828707713," **1. What is your project about? What’s the problem it solves and anon2696444391?** Healthcare and Genetic data records are amongst the most intimate of data. I am seeing a frightening trend of people using services like 23&me which not only compromises their own privacy, but that of everyone who can be identified as members of their family. I can see a wide range of scenarios where this can prove problematic e.g where healthcare is privatised and insurance get a hold of data which can allow them to deny you coverage due to pre-existing conditions or genetic predisposition. Also, public institutions cannot be relied on to safeguard that data as they may be tempted to sell them to third parties that profess to helping them save costs through more efficient management of resources, triaging etc. **2. What stage are you in?** Early stage idea and research **3. What would you like to get out of a 72 hour hackday?** Figure out the feasibility of the idea, what technologies could be used to realise it and have a clear business/sustainability model for it. **4. What do you need to get it done? People? Skills? Guidance? Clarity?** All 4" 2,62480,2019-10-29T14:22:09.429Z,11203,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,61833,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"hi @anon3554387720 , are there any next steps for me to do?" 3,62573,2019-10-30T16:48:03.237Z,11203,1,4,3,1,0,0,10.8,61833,anon3554387720,anon3828707713,"Whooo :slight_smile: Thanks Nadia for adding your idea :slight_smile: I am not sure what your intended solution is? Are you still trying to figure that out? Would that be a session you'd like to do with people to brainstorm? Also: Do you plan to be in Berlin at the hackathon date, or remote?" 4,62577,2019-10-30T17:00:58.570Z,11203,1,4,3,1,0,0,10.8,62573,anon3828707713,anon3554387720,"Yes it would be great to do a brainstorm session about this as I am unsure at which end to approach this. Are we looking at the ""wet"" end in collection of the blood/body fluids (labelling), the transport (legals/logistics/security), processing/generation of results, or delivering the data. Or perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way? Before going into solutions it would be good to eliminate unrealistic/too complex/dangerous paths" 5,62578,2019-10-30T17:02:03.431Z,11203,0,4,3,1,0,0,5.8,62577,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"regarding joining in Person, it could work if I can find the right people who want to work on it ahead of the event so I know it makes sense for me to come" 1,55639,2019-06-24T18:56:18.027Z,10221,2,28,27,279,0,0,1447.6,55639,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"Hey folks! I am about to publish a blog post below. Thought this might be a good place to get some eyeballs on it before it is released :slight_smile:, and generally this group might be interested in the subject of anon2696444391 we can build a more open, innovative and user-centric internet. Thanks for sharing your perspective! ------ We all have heard it: In order to build something valuable you it has to be 10X better than whats there. It seems like an accepted law of entrepreneurship. A law so strong that not even Google+, with Billions of backing, could not become a rival to Facebook. Google+ arguably had some features that made it a better service than Facebook. **This begs the questions if the reasons the 10x law exist actively prevents innovation from happening, why this 'law' exists in the first place and what we can do to change the rules?** ## Everyone knows the pain of trying out new products Common knowledge suggest services need to be 10x better because in order for users to really bother trying a new product it just needs to be a lot better. I think that's not the case and the key to solving this question lies in the phrase **""to try a new product"".** **I believe the real reason are are the switching costs, lock-ins and network effects that make it very hard or impossible to leave services and try out something new.** Imagine you wanted to move from Facebook to Google+, Akasha or Mastadon. All your posts and messages ported over is impossible and you immediately lose access to all of the friends you have on Facebook. So as long as the following is true people tendenciously do not switch other services, even if they know those are better. Costs to switch (time & mental effort) > Additional benefit offered * ~10 ## But....what about innovation? Don't these 10x requirements produce the leapfrogs in innovation we need to solve humanities biggest challenges quickly? ![tenor|444x250](upload://oTgVgQCQJIebqk2D7N916FbTI5Q.gif) **Yes because** it indeed produces big, measurable, jumps in innovation that have brought humanity forward. **But no because** 1. The amount of effort, money to build new (but structurally similar) services where 9/10 companies will fail because others dominating the market is a gigantic waste of human potential and time. We don't have the time to tinker on every new solution for years. We need to get it down to week(ends) or months. **** 2. Sometimes already a new feature to an existing service would bring great innovation. For example I waited 4 years before Facebook implemented the ability to save posts for later reading. Simply thing. If I had been able to modify this feature in my own clients it would have offered great workflow innovation for me. 3. The necessity to have such big jumps also brought us insane growth requirements that are responsible for a lot of things that go wrong in this world in the first place, and which we need to fix now. ## Faster innovation through incremental gains **How would a world look like where not 1/10 companies survive & produce 10x innovation, but 6/10 companies survive, each producing 2x innovation at 1/10 of the cost?** We would enter a world where we create incremental innovations at higher speed and less effort, more employment, more stable companies and economy, more service competition and less exploitation. ![com-optimize%20(2)|451x268](upload://lraYqtL2qVut74gWPrNffLeitCC.gif) ## What's holding us back: Network Effects and Data Lock-Ins ### Cause #1: How we share success in companies: Speculative value increase In order to reward the risk of contributing to a company in either time or money we use equity or stages stocks. The problem is that in most cases shareholders make most (or all) of their profits if the speculative value of the company increases. The company's profits, revenue and user numbers are only proxies, success is not directly dependent on them. Growth is the key metric a company optimises for. Therefore the worst thing that can happen for shareholders is that growth is slow or negative. Losing users or revenue is not acceptable and lock-ins **must** be created. Facebook is arguably the king of network effects and also an example of anon2696444391 extreme the above dynamic has become: **In the 2nd quarter of 2018, Facebook lost $120bn (billion!) in stock value within 48 hours, the biggest loss of any company in history. The reason: It posted** the least growth **since its founding, while still making 5BN in profits the same quarter and growing by 42% since the last year.** Think whatever you want about they way Facebook makes money, but such a highly profitable company should not be losing 20% of their stock value overnight while still being wildly profitable. ### Cause #2: You and your data are hostages: Data and Social Lock-ins & Non-Interoperable data formats The requirement to grow incentivises companies to lock people into their services and make it very hard to leave. Either it's difficult to migrate and reuse your data in other services, or they create network effects where you lose your social connections if you leave a service. [https://twitter.com/piamancini/status/1045034032407425024?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw](https://twitter.com/piamancini/status/1045034032407425024?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) This also creates counter incentives for interoperable formats which would make it easier to migrate between services or integrate them into custom workflows. Further, most businesses require to amass intellectual property in the form of proprietary software. There is an economic incentive to **not** share their progress with the world. This way every new service/competitor needs to start freshly, even for a simple app like a calendar app. # The 3 things that need to change Breaking this dynamic requires tackling the problem from multiple angles. I think it needs 3 things to make that possible. 1. **Data and social Interoperability** so users can freely move between services that suit their needs better and never lose the ability to communicate with their friends on other services. This will create the free-market pressure to produce good services, as you can't lock people in as easily anymore and only keep them if you are the best service to them. 2. **Economic models that reward being a good service, not growth.** In an environment where people can easily leave a service, a company can only really be successful if they focus on being a good service. This way they will need to optimise for revenue, not growth. Further, their growth is limited to the amount of people they can be the best service for, so it will be hard to get growth-focused Venture Capital investments. Another economic model is needed where investors make money only if the company is being a good service, thus by making revenue and profits. 3. **Optional but ideal: Open-Source software** New companies should be able to build on each other's work to provide services faster without spending 1000s of hours in building up services from scratch. Increased collaboration on key infrastructure and drop in development costs are expected. ## A way forward? At [WorldBrain.io](http://worldbrain.io) we are building open-source software and attempt to enable incremental innovation in the (knowledge management) software space. The foundation to make this possible is Memex, an open-source privacy focused tool to organise your online research. It's a mix of a Google Search for everything you have seen in the past, Medium's highlighting and commenting features but for the whole web, and Pocket's organisation features supercharged. All data is stored locally on your computer by default - you are in control. (You can download it here: [worldbrain.io](http://worldbrain.io)) This is anon2696444391 it help may tackle the problem: 1. **We bake interoperability deep into the core of Memex.** To make search possible Memex stores personal data from the different services you use (e.g. your browsing history/bookmarks/trails, social media posts and comments, what you shared/liked content on social media, your annotations and notes). Doing so in a way that creates unified data formats across multiple services. After all, social media posts on Twitter and Facebook are structurally not that different. To make this data usable for you we are in the process of developing an API that you, developers and entrepreneurs can use to innovate on new services or integrate with your existing ones. This central data store also houses your own social graph, so whichever service you eventually use, you can take your friends with you. 2. **Everything we develop is open source.** Everyone has different workflows when managing knowledge and needs different tools. People can copy Memex, change features and reuse the data they had in their previous Memex via the Storex API, or use 2 Memex tools in parallel. This ensures that innovators do not have to start freshly every time they want to improve a service, but can create incremental gains, acquire users easily and eventually create innovation faster. 3. **[WorldBrain.io](http://worldbrain.io) has no stock value. There is no speculation.** To reward early contributions and risk, we use a non-speculative economic model called Steward Ownership. In practice it is a profit sharing model that has a cap on the returns investors and employees can make - the cap is higher the earlier you join. This ensures that everyone is focused on building a sustainable service and greed for more than you ought to get is removed. **It allows us as a company to be OK (its surely nothing to celebrate, but its OK) to lose users and revenue to other services as it will only delay investors' returns, not lower them.** ## Next Steps: Of course such a data infrastructure, and the resulting data sovereignty, brings a whole new class of (privacy) challenges with it - after all we wanna prevent that this can turn into a Cambridge Analytica 4.0 scenario because people unknowingly share detailed data about their digital life. We are currently forming a community of people to map out all those challenges and anon2696444391 to tackle them through e.g. good UX, education or privacy preserving technologies. ### Our open questions we want to address: 1. How do we create a secure technology infrastructure for personal data? 2. Data sovereignty & flexible APIs come with risks - Cambridge Analytica 4.0 style risks. How do we create good UX that makes it easy, transparent and flexible to share personal data with other applications, while educating users about the potential risks and opportunities. 3. What can we learn from past efforts to interoperability and data model standardisation in order to create interoperable data models/formats for knowledge sharing that can evolve with contemporary needs. 4. How does legislation need to change to support ecosystems that are built on privacy as well as data portability/interoperability and reduce social lock-ins? 5. How can (governmental) funding mechanisms be designed to support early stage entrepreneurs and organisations using Steward Ownership or Non-Profit models, so they can avoid Venture Capital and focus on generating sustainable revenue/profits. 6. How can we facilitate a multi-stakeholder community of individuals & organisations with potentially large spectrum of political, economical and technical motivations/requirements to use this data infrastructure. 7. How can we create a community that is inclusive to people with different, sometimes opposing, world views and which lives constructive, consent-focused (not consensus!) discourse to ease those difference and find multi-partisan solutions. **Do you have ideas on anon2696444391 to answer those questions, or know people who do?** **Get in touch with us and help designing systems that are user centric, interoperable and build with a strong focus on data sovereignty and privacy.** Join us in our Slack/telegram Channel (coming soon)" 2,55711,2019-06-25T16:54:10.716Z,10221,1,18,17,2,1,0,78.6,55639,anon3379761435,anon3554387720,"Hey Oliver, this is really interesting. In the language of economists, you describe market failures (in ""What’s holding us back""). You then proceed to recommend fixes (in ""The 3 things that need to change""). Two out of the three you mention qualify as competition policy (they make it harder to attain and hold dominant positions) and make plenty of sense. The third one, about VCs, is less straightforward, and I'm afraid it plugs back into value theory. That does not mean you are wrong, only that it is less obvious from a textbook economics point of view. I really like the idea of [quote=""anon3554387720, post:1, topic:10221""] forming a community of people to map out all those challenges and anon2696444391 to tackle them through e.g. good UX, education or privacy preserving technologies. [/quote] It could be the beginning of a much needed activity to issue guidelines, set goalposts and certify companies and products. I think the folks involved in the European Commission's [Next Generation Internet initiative](https://www.ngi.eu) might look with some sympathy upon such efforts. Many people in the Edgeryders community also care about these issues, and we would like to help if we can. I find a bit less convincing that any single company be a good candidate for a long term fix. It's great that WorldBrain is experimenting with non-speculative finance, but I would not stake too much on it. Quite some innovation in governance and corporate culture have been attempted in the past (lastly the ""not evil"", progressive tech giants), and I am not impressed with the results. Of course, this time might really be different, but that's a hard argument to make. I think your ""A way forward"" section means to treat WorldBrain not as a massive fix, but as an example of the approach you would like to see. If it is so, I think it could be made clearer by bolting it on top of Things that need to change, item 2, and explaining that items 1 and 3 are a matter for public policy." 3,55714,2019-06-26T00:09:28.445Z,10221,0,15,14,2,1,0,58.0,55639,anon659222949,anon3554387720,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:1, topic:10221""] **How would a world look like where not 1/10 companies survive & produce 10x innovation, but 6/10 companies survive, each producing 2x innovation at 1/10 of the cost?** [/quote] This is a very good question and relates to something my friend @anon2236365655 once said when we were talking about entrepreneurship. I'm paraphrasing, but basically, the argument is that the start-up entrepreneurship hype is mostly a cheap way for big companies to outsource their R&D to young idealistic people who are willing to live on noodles and spend their best years chasing a project that is very likely to fail. And the systems are set up so that if they do make it, against the odds, they end up under investor control and are likely to be sold off to a bigger player for a pay-out. This 2x world is certainly more appealing in that regard. [quote=""anon3554387720, post:1, topic:10221""] ### Our open questions we want to address [/quote] These are questions that I think @anon" 4,55717,2019-06-26T01:51:17.523Z,10221,1,15,14,2,0,0,78.0,55639,anon1872079083,anon3554387720,"Continuing the discussion from [Startups' grand illusion: You have to be 10x better than whats there](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/startups-grand-illusion-you-have-to-be-10x-better-than-whats-there/10221): @anon659222949 asked me to X-post my reply on Facebook here. I made some minor editing to fit this forum better. Sorry for a long rambling text but I'm thinking a lot of these kinds of problems due to my internal conflict between my ADD (human limitation, which includes problems with processing info) and my intense curiousity (filling my brain with too much info). ... I thought a lot about innovation rate when I wrote this comment a earlier today: [https://www.facebook.com/mrhama/posts/10156538052578951...](https://www.facebook.com/mrhama/posts/10156538052578951?comment_id=10156538092398951&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D&hc_location=ufi) ... The OP is really good as it explains why the economic ecosystem fails to select for growth in utility because of various impeding factors. I thought a bit about questions similar to Cause 1 and 2 last week and spoke about them with some friends. I think Cause 2 is a really hard nut to crack as it's impossible to have open APIs for personal data (as we learnt from the Cambridge Analytica scandal, mentioned by OP). To spur innovation and bust the tech oligopoly we'll need open standards, protocols, interoperability etc. The big problem here is that the oligopoly as well as their customers (advertisers) oppose such changes as that would undermine their profitable positions. I wonder anon2696444391 and if grassroot innovations alone can break the staleness of the oligopoly. It might take a bit of trust busting from USA and EU to really shake things up through political means. Right now there are a bunch of competitors to the oligopoly but they are irrelevant since most of them don't seem to realise the importance of working with the whole stack. Each of them have simply too anon2488317424 brainpower (since most good developers are already employed by the oligopoly) to be anywhere close to develop as good services as the oligopoly does which makes the strategy of competing with a better service a fool's errand. Bitchute will never be able to outcompete Youtube with a bit freer speech as their USP. My idea last week was to develop some kind of virtual business card as a hub for metadata about a person or a company you want to follow and then build a platform to navigate these information streams. Different communications platforms can be connected to that hub. My idea at that point didn't even attempt to solve the problem of the storage of the databases. I doubt we can solve that issue for the forseeable future since only the major clouds have the scale to store the data cheap enough. Storing data locally is incompatible with the nature of social media since the communication is asynchronous. So far blockchains have been unimpressive in their ability of integrating social media or other services into the protocol itself to make data storage disembodied from a singular entity like a corporation. So far the only use case for blockchains is to tranfer money since then there's an acceptance for the high costs of transferring small amounts of data. I'm very happy to read that many of my ideas about some kind metadata manager had already been thought of and implemented by Worldbrain. I'm also a bit skeptic: Does Worldbrain want to compete in an existing market dynamic or do they want to disrupt the dynamics. It might be hard to achieve both goals of making things interoperable as well as spending time to develop a good UX. Wikipedia/Wikimedia have managed this but for such a shifting service such as managing information overload in an environment where the flows of information are locked into personalised propertiary algorithms on different platforms it might be a much harder task anon2696444391 to make the webs manageable. I'm currently opting out from a lot of different data managers and unfollowing topics on social media (like Pocket) and just shove the data into Excel instead where there's a simple 2D-layout that suits me better. This process of decluttering gives me a lot of inspiration. There are many things I learn about myself and of the internet through this process. Maybe we can remodel the stack, loosen the grip of the oligopoly and spur more innovation. What I desire is the somwhat oxymoronic desire of having many different information flows manageable through a small set of apps/sites/services. Facebook and RSS have failed me. Facebook because it's too closed and hard to configure and RSS becuase it doesn't have an algorithm to discern what's relevant or not." 5,55735,2019-06-26T10:06:45.292Z,10221,0,16,15,1,1,0,23.2,55717,anon3554387720,anon1872079083,"@anon1872079083 [quote=""anon1872079083, post:4, topic:10221""] Sorry for a long rambling text [/quote] I think no need to apologise for good insights :) Sometimes it is hard to condense these year long experiences and thoughts. So no problem. One purpose of such conversations is after all to synthesise. :slight_smile: > I think Cause 2 is a really hard nut to crack as it’s impossible to have open APIs for personal data I think I understand your concern and fear the Cambridge Analytica 2.0 scenario too, but I would not say it is impossible to solve. We think it is a **very** hard nut to crack though. The way to solve the data sharing problem is not just with technology but also with a lot of education. Such systems need to be very well designed in terms of UX and anon2696444391 to educate people about the way to share data without overwhelming them. That's a whole range of challenges by themselves. > To spur innovation and bust the tech oligopoly we’ll need open standards, protocols, interoperability etc. YES! This is exactly what we think too. In order to have more data sovereignty, privacy and better services we think the best metric to optimise for is interoperability, not decentralisation. If we manage to do this, we assume we create the kind of free-market dynamics that could break up the power of those organisations. > It might take a bit of trust busting from USA and EU to really shake things up through political means. I think luckily we have the regulatory atmosphere in Europe that is tendentiously more interested in privacy and interoperability, making Europe a very good foundational market for such an effort. > since most of them don’t seem to realise the importance of working with the whole stack. Can you elaborate, not sure if I got this. Seems important to understand tho. > Different communications platforms can be connected to that hub. This is one of the thinking processes on anon2696444391 this platform could be architected to avoid a vulnerable centralisation of user data in user's control. Basically finding a way that the data in all the services a user uses is accessible with a Memex, but stays in the ""protection"" of those services, spreading the attack surface. However to make this possible it would require those oligopolies to play ball to this, which is unlikely. So another route is to use some good ol' [adversarial interoperability](https://boingboing.net/2019/06/07/lightsabers-for-trustbusting.html) to create data formats that interoperate with those services and once such formats have more widespread use it may 'force' previously locked up services to open up more in order to stay competitive. This is a very long game though. > Storing data locally is incompatible with the nature of social media since the communication is asynchronous. Indeed it is and a dogmatic approach to decentralisation will not get us very far. We think that there is always a necessity for varying degrees of (de)centralisation in the system, dependent on the use case. In our approach this means that we follow a wordpress.com/org style model where we provide hosting to users who want to have a SaaS experience, but you can self-host your sync/collaboration node too. As decentralised storage technologies like Dat or IPFS mature, it may be purpuseful to use them, but not now. > So far blockchains have been unimpressive in their ability of integrating social media or other services into the protocol itself to make data storage disembodied from a singular entity like a corporation. Actually I see a deep dichotomy in the goals that blockchain and cryptocurrencies in particular have that impede their ability to have the impact of decentralisation originally envisioned. On the one hand they use technology that tries to build trustless, distributed systems and on the other hand an economic model that intrinsically creates incentives for centralisation through the speculative nature of anon2696444391 success is shared. > Does Worldbrain want to compete in an existing market dynamic or do they want to disrupt the dynamics. Which dynamics specifically are your referring to? The current market dynamics I understand is the centralisation of user data around corporate entities and the network effects created. If that is what you are talking about, yes our plan is to disrupt that dynamic by giving users unprecedented freedom to move services, a freedom we believe is hard to take away again once given. The big assumption is therefore that over time it may force existing players to adopt such interoperability to stay competitive. Apart from that maybe that answers some of the question: There are 2 different entities forming: 1) WorldBrain.io as a company which is the developer of (the current) open-source Memex and generates revenue by providing SaaS services to users. 2) Still to be named: Storex and a community of organisations/individuals as the underlying infrastructure which will be built as a non-profit, multi-partisan entity similar to wordpress.org. WorldBrain.io will likely be the main driver behind its development for the next 1-2 years but keeping it intentionally open and separated from the main business. >Facebook because it’s too closed and hard to configure and RSS becuase it doesn’t have an algorithm to discern what’s relevant or not. We hope through this central store and the upcoming collaboration features that are based on a PubSub model we would combine the best of both worlds. You can have data streams coming in from your various sources and use whatever algorithm, UI or UX you prefer to manage those streams. This modularity is one of the key principles behind building Memex and Storex. ---- Thanks again for your thoughtful comments. Looking forward to continue the conversation. :)" 6,55737,2019-06-26T10:28:55.154Z,10221,0,14,13,1,1,0,22.8,55711,anon3554387720,anon3379761435,"Thanks for your comment. :) [quote=""anon3379761435, post:2, topic:10221""] The third one, about VCs, is less straightforward, and I’m afraid it plugs back into value theory. That does not mean you are wrong, only that it is less obvious from a textbook economics point of view. [/quote] Can you elaborate on this point a bit more? What specifically are you afraid of in the context of value theory and anon2696444391 can I make my point more straight forward (aka. what kind of open questions come up for you?) > It could be the beginning of a much needed activity to issue guidelines, set goalposts and certify companies and products. Yes :) that is the idea. If we wanna have a real change this effort must be bottom up, but another company trying to build it in their singular view of the world > I think the folks involved in the European Commission’s [Next Generation Internet initiative](https://www.ngi.eu/) might look with some sympathy upon such efforts. I think so too, and being funded by the LEDGER grant is a first step towards this. Within the next 6-9 months we try to formulate the vision of this data sharing infrastructure, build an MVP, getting 10-20 organisations using the infrastructure and then applying for some bigger NGI/H2020 grants beginning of next year to get it to maturity. > I find a bit less convincing that any single company be a good candidate for a long term fix. It’s great that WorldBrain is experimenting with non-speculative finance, but I would not stake too much on it. Agreed, specifically this data infrastructure should be a non-profit multi-partisan effort. As explained in the response to @anon1872079083, there will be 2 entities. > 1. [WorldBrain.io](http://worldbrain.io/) as a company which is the developer of (the current) open-source Memex and generates revenue by providing SaaS services to users. > 2. Still to be named: Storex and a community of organisations/individuals as the underlying infrastructure which will be built as a non-profit, multi-partisan entity similar to [wordpress.org](http://wordpress.org/). [WorldBrain.io](http://worldbrain.io/) will likely be the main driver behind its development for the next 1-2 years but keeping it intentionally open and separated from the main business. > , but I would not stake too much on it. What makes you skeptical about that? > and I am not impressed with the results. Yes I see it similarly. I think the problem with those attempts was that they tried to use governance as a fix to counter the deeply embedded economic incentives of companies. After all if your company is built for growth (which inevitably become exploitative and power-centralising at some point), using governance to solve this is ineffective at best and fails at worst. The point of Steward Ownership is to systematically remove the incentives for greed behaviour (infinite potential for growth) by agreeing on a fixed return for investors/contributors before they invest time and/or money. Excess profits can then be used to improve the working conditions, supply chain sustainability, overall service, or simply be given away to charity. > If it is so, I think it could be made clearer by bolting it on top of Things that need to change, item 2, and explaining that items 1 and 3 are a matter for public policy. Thanks for that suggestion, will see anon2696444391 I can incorporate it. However, I think you can't rely on solely public policy to change 1 and 3. Open-Source software (2) alone won't fix the issue either. I don't even think it is a hard requirement. Interoperability (1) and Steward Ownership structures (2) won't be freely adopted by existing corporations and it is expected, like with the GDPR legislation, that there will be major effort to counter interoperability legislation. And frankly it takes way too long. Time we simply don't have as humanity. So I think a move towards interoperability and Steward Ownership at scale can only work if the primary driver is technological innovation that changes the playing field. This may be supported by legislation at some point, latest when it becomes almost inevitable to strengthen interoperability efforts because of public pressure." 7,55775,2019-06-26T17:49:08.154Z,10221,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,55639,anon3203746736,anon3554387720,"Great link on adversarial interoperability. Based on what I know so far, I see interoperability and user choice about who stores the data and where, as your best shot to gain traction because that is most in conflict with the business models of the big monopoly platforms. Something I have noticed over the past decades is anon2696444391 many startups or rival businesses or enterprises had a product or service that was either bought or duplicated. And that business either cashes out or goes under or someanon2696444391 finds a niche and survives. I saw this in the 80s with Apple and MS in their operating systems, I saw it in the 90s with MS Explorer, and in the 2000s with Google (maps come to mind for one) and Facebook up through today. And I suspect that FB's new emphasis on private group messages is not just to stay out of the content moderation game, but is in response to a threat from Slack. I am pretty sure you know this already, but when your product or service, that relies on either an Apple or MS OS, Google, FB or Amazon (and others surely) succeeds past a certain point, if they can copy it, they will. Either that or make you an offer you are not likely to refuse. So making indexes and notations and sharing info...all of that is something they can reproduce. But you know they won't allow someone to control their data and they won't play nice with everyone else, just like anon2696444391 Apple makes it harder to do things with Adobe when those two are warring..so making the things work that live in between the Big Boys and creating a kind of more protected value to the people who use it gives an opening I think." 8,55823,2019-06-28T07:51:09.305Z,10221,0,14,13,2,1,0,27.8,55775,anon3554387720,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:7, topic:10221""] Based on what I know so far, I see interoperability and user choice about who stores the data and where, as your best shot to gain traction because that is most in conflict with the business models of the big monopoly platforms. [/quote] Yes i see this too. With decentralisation as the main metric it may not be enough to provide better services. It's hard to beat the convenience and efficiency of centralised systems. > I am pretty sure you know this already, but when your product or service, that relies on either an Apple or MS OS, Google, FB or Amazon (and others surely) succeeds past a certain point, if they can copy it, they will. Either that or make you an offer you are not likely to refuse. There are several factors that may not let that happen. 1. WorldBrain.io is a Steward Ownership company. Once this transformation is complete, the company itself can never be sold. A golden share will be given to a foundation with the only purpose of preventing any sale of any shares. 2. Interoperability (the freedom to move your data and friends) will presumably give people a freedom that is very hard to take again, once given. Thus the assumption is that over time other services effectively need to offer some interoperability to stay competitive. 3. Actually the goal is that Memex and its features are duplicated and integrated into other (proprietary) services that allow to share the data inside those services more effectively. However these are all big assumptions and its not self-evident that these will play out exactly like that. The key will be to continuously try to set the market incentives so that it just becomes more profitable for existing organisations to be interoperable, because the market demands it." 9,56109,2019-07-03T11:59:19.086Z,10221,0,13,12,1,0,0,37.6,55639,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"Hey folks. i just published the [article on medium](https://medium.com/worldbrain/anon2696444391-vc-money-prevents-innovation-and-what-we-can-do-about-it-2f8867b2fff8) and [shared this tweet](https://twitter.com/worldbrain/status/1146387086100111362) about it. I would be very thankful if you can spread it in your circles! Cheers :slight_smile:" 10,60177,2019-09-30T14:39:52.573Z,10221,2,11,10,1,0,0,32.2,55639,anon3828707713,anon3554387720,"I was reminded of this post while reading about the current implosion of WeWork: A lesson in anon2696444391 to go from from a $47 billion valuation to talk of bankruptcy in just 6 weeks. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/28/hubris-of-a-high-flyer-anon2696444391-investors-brought-wework-founder-down-to-earth" 11,60181,2019-09-30T15:06:59.188Z,10221,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,60177,anon3554387720,anon3828707713,"Indeed, valuations of some companies is just insanely detached from the service they bring into the world." 12,60196,2019-09-30T17:46:42.386Z,10221,1,12,11,1,0,0,42.4,60177,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"A very succinct recap of what went down. It looks in one way as if a single company was acting like the mortgage-bundling funds that created much of the 2008 bubble that burst. So it sort of looks like a house of cards. Except anon2696444391 did this guy convince the head of Softbank to invest so much money? He must be a gifted bullshitter. And it's the greed pheromone, so seductive. One of the best pieces of business advice I ever got came from the big boss of the publishing company I worked for in the 90s, which owned newspapers, TV stations and book publishing. This guy was a heavy hitter: he had been the head of ABC in New York for 17 years. He told me when I was just starting out that in reporting up to your boss or an investor, ""always lead with your bad news. That way your good news will be believed. If you always lead with your good news, it becomes suspect."" I suspect that this is a guy who didn't do that; did the opposite in fact. But in those pre-IPO filings, you have to lay it out honestly or you are committing a crime. So, the whole picture came suddenly into full focus. ""Whoops...so that's what's going on? No thanks, we'll pass.""" 13,62532,2019-10-30T10:49:17.915Z,10221,0,12,11,5,1,0,27.4,60196,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:12, topic:10221""] “always lead with your bad news. That way your good news will be believed. If you always lead with your good news, it becomes suspect.” [/quote] I really like that." 1,62514,2019-10-30T05:00:20.963Z,11307,0,7,6,1,0,0,36.4,62514,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"I feel this is a very fitting song for the conversations we're having here (interview out with the rappers on Coda Story's Authoritarian Tech newsletter later today). “Everyone wants to feel in control. In the same breath, they want to be told what they like and what they don’t. So it seems to me, this confusion is a human error. We keep allowing this to grow, the machines are gonna win.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8OE8kg7DoQ" 1,62425,2019-10-28T22:34:40.861Z,11280,0,5,4,1,0,0,36.0,62425,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"**Hello Edgeryders!** My name is Roberto Trevini Bellini, I have been suggested by a friend to join this very interesting community. Briefly, my story: after my studies in political sciences and international relations with a focus on human rights, I started working in the field of international development cooperation and humanitarian aid. I have worked for different kinds of organisations (NGOs, Italian Development Agency, European Commission, private companies), and for the last 5 years I have been project manager and trainer/consultant for a consulting company, especially working in the area of training and skills development for the development and humanitarian community, with the European Commission being our main client. Development cooperation, with all its flaws and contradictory features, is (or should be) fundamentally driven by the goal of fighting inequalities and eradicating poverty. However, after 70 years of international development cooperation, while some progresses have been achieved, it is evident that inequalities are still growing. The age of the Internet has brought many new opportunities and challenges for the global fight for justice and equality. Technological advances have made knowledge, services and goods far more easily available to a bigger share of global population. However, the control over these resources is increasingly concentrated in the hands of few stakeholders (usually private corporations, and to a lesser extent public entities). During my university studies, I followed a course about the governance of the global communication and information systems, which raised my awareness about the intimate link between anon2696444391 technology is designed and anon2696444391 much the users are (or aren’t) protagonists of the decision-making processes that impact their daily lives. For example, I am currently involved in the design and development of an online training programme, funded by the European Commission, to develop the skills and awareness of volunteers engaging in solidarity actions in Europe. We are just starting, but it is already evident that accessibility for everyone is key for the success and usefulness of the programme, as it is the direct involvement of learners in shaping the e-learning contents and modalities. Another example is the possibility to use geo-spatial data to provide humanitarian or development services with the direct involvement of beneficiaries. In general, my curiosity is piqued by the possibility to develop technologies that can re-shape development policies and practices towards a needs-based approach instead of a donor-driven approach. Besides strictly development/humanitarian aspects, I am interested in the role of technology, AI, social networks and IT tools that can empower citizens and foster democracy in an increasingly complex global society. I look forward to joining the event and this community." 1,62428,2019-10-28T23:11:04.039Z,11281,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,62428,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"**My name is Sarah Suib,** a Malaysian who is currently living in Brussels. I'm a Design & User Researcher who is interested to understand our complex world - especially the meaningful interactions between people, nature and the artificial. I have a Ph.D. in Design for Sustainability with a focus on values and cultural heritage. My skills are mostly based on my experience in design research and sustainable product development projects. I'm experienced in using various design tools and applying both qualitative and quantitative research methods as a means to understand the context as well as users' explicit and implicit habits and behaviors in order to generate solutions tailored to their existing situations. **Motivations:** A discussion about taxonomy used in teaching or providing learning input in an AI provided insight about where these inputs originate from - people. This picque my interest as my Ph.D. research also explored the taxonomy of values that are attributed to products over time and across generations. These values are created, compiled, shared, evolved, exchange and also discarded. I find it compelling that our collective values essentially feed knowledge to AI which means it also inherit all the perceptions that humans have. Therefore, I believe it's important to understand and identify values that will be used as learning inputs for AI. However, it would be an interesting experience to learn more about this subject, learned from the experts in the field and also shared my perspective about values that were attributed to products over time and across generations." 1,62347,2019-10-27T22:34:23.837Z,11271,0,14,13,3,0,0,62.8,62347,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![communitycalls%20logo%2029th%20of%20oct-01|690x487](upload://6BEyImvs9Z4WHUEsnZQp9ttx267.png) Dear organisers and festival participants! We are entering the hot phase, just before the burning hot face in Festival preparations:). Now we should all be decided and booked on the date and location and have a clearer image of the last needs and most importantly be ready to start inviting all the interesting people we want to have there! Please come to the call on Tuesday the 29th 18:00 to catch up and see if everything is on track and if and anon2696444391 you would need help :). Looking forward to seeing you at: https://zoom.us/j/489971765 Ping @anon2682865457, @anon3554387720, @anon3747875924, @anon" 2,62409,2019-10-28T17:04:58.932Z,11271,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,62347,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,"**Some early updates:** I have been at Mozfest this weekend and it seems as if Mozilla is organising an IndieWeb Barcamp/Hackathon. They have a very similar structure in mind: 1 day community weaving, 1 day building. Tantek, the person leading the event, and me had the idea of merging those 2. This means we wouldn't need to pay for a location and have a great community on board too. https://indieweb.org/2019/Berlin2" 3,62411,2019-10-28T17:35:28.795Z,11271,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,62409,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"@anon3554387720, would it still work to have the participants post their project proposals and documentation here on the platform?" 1,62402,2019-10-28T15:27:46.649Z,11276,0,6,5,3,0,0,16.2,62402,anon3747875924,anon3747875924,"Das von der The Schaufler Foundation und der Technischen Universität Dresden kofinanzierte Schaufler Lab@anon Im Schaufler Lab@anon Die Universität unterstützt ihre Mitglieder bei der Vereinbarkeit von Beruf und Familie und bietet familienfreundliche Studien- und Arbeitsbedingungen. Zudem werden über die Graduiertenaka- demie und andere Zentrale Einrichtungen Weiterbildungs- und Qualifikationsmöglichkeiten angeboten (z. B. Projektmanagement, Softskills, Sprachkurse). Von den Bewerbenden werden ein überdurchschnittlicher wiss. Hochschulabschluss in einem geistes- oder sozialwiss. Fach und eine hohe Bereitschaft zu interdisziplinärer Arbeit sowie zur Forschung und zu Kooperationen mit Künstlern/-innen im Rahmen des Schaufler Labs@anon Frauen sind ausdrücklich zur Bewerbung aufgefordert. Selbiges gilt auch für Menschen mit Behinderungen. Potentielle Stipendiaten/-innen bewerben sich bitte mit Motivationsschreiben, tabanon4205961763rischem Lebenslauf, etwaigen Zeugnissen und einem Exposé im Umfang von maximal 20.000 Zeichen für ein Promotionsvorhaben. Besonders erwünscht sind interdisziplinär angelegte Projekte mit Doppelbetreuungen. Hierbei sind auch Kooperationen von Geistes- und Sozialwissenschaften mit Natur- und Ingenieurwissenschaften denkbar. Ihre Bewerbung senden Sie bitte bis 29.11.2019 (es gilt der Poststempel der ZPS der TU Dresden) bevorzugt über das SecureMail Portal der TU Dresden https://securemail.tu-dresden.de als ein PDF-Dokument an lutz.hagen@anon" 1,60763,2019-10-06T14:32:38.915Z,11035,0,18,17,25,0,0,158.6,60763,anon3828707713,anon3828707713," image credit: ? Earlier this year, Amelia Andersdotter (@anon1732761404), Alberto Cottica (@anon3379761435) and myself had a conversation about Europe, politics and tech. Amelia has a lot of [hands on hands-on experience](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Andersdotter) around anon2696444391 to bridge the gap between the different actors and processes needed for political lobbying, design and implementation of policies in Europe. It was a sweeping conversation about anon2696444391 in practice, the regulation of technology happens and where the real negotiations around power to implement policies (or not) take place. In this conversation we brushed on several topics and issues that together are resulting in EU and national policies stifling the ability of European companies to successfully compete with Chinese and US tech actors, and the values they espouse: 1. That we get lots of new policy on top of existing policy with redundancy and the implications of this in the long run. 2. The conflict between well-intended European Policymakers and national governments. 3. Role of standards bodies and anon2696444391 different actors relate to/navigate/use them. 4. The general difference between anon2696444391 US / China / EU institutions and national governments acts/relates to its technologies/goes about policy making / regulation. We also discussed which skills, expertise and strategic alliances are needed to improve the situation. And anon2696444391 Edgeryders could better leverage our growing reach and presence in EUrope to contribute to this. Rather than try to sum up the contents of a 3 hour, deeply technical conversation I have set this post up as a wiki for all of us to help flesh out one or more of the points above. To set a good foundation for our discussions and events before, during and after the November festival." 2,61227,2019-10-13T13:13:55.251Z,11035,1,11,10,1,0,0,57.2,60763,anon1732761404,anon3828707713,"This is a long-term discussion that we need to have with more relevant actors - in and outside of the Edgeryders communities. Bringing in researchers, institutions - especially interesting now that there has been a very strong push for strategic standardization, securitization and industrial policy at different levels of EU governance (member states, Union level), while at the same time EU legislation tries to push in a direction of ethics, rights, rules-based governance (consider data protection or A.I. initiatives of late). Maybe we need a round-table eventually or get some people in the same room for a workshop format on requirements on EU tech architectures?" 3,61837,2019-10-21T13:51:26.530Z,11035,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,61227,anon3828707713,anon1732761404,makes sense to me - when might you want/have time to do it? If you can come to the AI and Justice event on November 19 in Brussels it could be a good opportunity to connect with possible allies ahead of future work on a round table. 4,62372,2019-10-28T12:37:36.814Z,11035,2,7,6,1,0,0,16.4,61837,anon1732761404,anon3828707713,"On November 19 I'm busy, but towards December I'm free. I'll be at CCC this year if you're there? Or at IGF in Berlin in end-November, as well as in Torino for the DECODE event next week?" 5,62373,2019-10-28T12:44:25.126Z,11035,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,62372,anon659222949,anon1732761404,"Amelia, will you by any chance be at Internetdagarna?" 6,62374,2019-10-28T12:48:20.236Z,11035,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,62372,anon3828707713,anon1732761404,"@anon3379761435 is at decode, maybe you guys can flesh something out! Alberto look ^^" 7,62376,2019-10-28T13:08:29.700Z,11035,1,7,6,1,0,0,26.4,62373,anon1732761404,anon659222949,"@anon659222949 Agh, I will not be at Internetdagarna, I am in Berlin those days for a JustNetCoalition meeting and later the IGF/wrapping-up work." 8,62377,2019-10-28T13:11:47.066Z,11035,1,6,5,1,0,0,26.2,62376,anon659222949,anon1732761404,"Ok, got it! But I will see you in Turin and then at CCC. Looking forward to catching up." 9,62378,2019-10-28T13:12:18.302Z,11035,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,62377,anon1732761404,anon659222949,indeed! 1,52764,2019-04-24T06:13:56.837Z,9790,0,52,51,9,0,0,70.4,52764,anon1577251828,anon1577251828,"We want to understand anon2696444391 you and others are trying to contribute towards building the evolution of the Internet and our digital technologies - so that they support efforts to build a better future against a backdrop of massive social, economic, ecological and political challenges. What is a burning question that drives your work? How did you get started and what hurdles have you met along the way? Which doubts do you have about the work you are doing and the path forward? What kind of support would you like to offer others traveling a similar path?   By sharing your story below you enable others to connect you with people, conversations, opportunities relevant to your personal and professional development: 1. Create an Edgeryders account by [signing up here](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/)! 2. Click on the **+ New Topic** butanon2863106368 below to open a new rich text editor. 3. Write your story and click on the **+ Create Topic** butanon2863106368 to submit it." 1,62001,2019-10-22T17:56:46.412Z,11227,0,10,9,2,0,0,57.0,62001,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Hello, dear Community members, on the 22nd of October, we met up with @anon2945747231, @anon3005461236, @anon1679055112, @anon3371338499, @anon3203746736, @anon1251979254 and @anon * We started by discussing the **signup process** again, which can appear rather complex, so here a break down of the general process: 1. Through this link: https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/festival/ticket or through the ""get your ticket butanon2863106368"" on the minisite https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/ people get to the sign-up form. in this form they are asked: Name, email, to select the event they want to attend from a roaster, and to introduce themselves a bit. They get this message: ""_Thank you very much! We will reach out to you via email with in the next 48 hours to give you further information and to discuss anon2696444391 to share your story best to confirm your ticket._"" 1. The Edgeryders team send an email to each signed up person explaining anon2696444391 to sign up on Edgeryders and anon2696444391 to make their post to introduce themselves in relation to the event topic to **""activate their ticket""** 1. As soon as they post their post, they have their ticket If you want to invite especially interesting people we offer to do an interview with them and write the post for them to get the most out of their time and topic. You could use the ""template for inviting experts"" from this document if you want: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cjY51Qsyl_3jtabQNLOFQxLJ6wm4kH83doy6nD78NbU/edit?usp=sharing Any questions? **Regarding reach out:** We are going to set up a facebook event for each of the events on the minisite and make the organiser a cohost to make it easier to invite your network at large. However, if you do not use facebook and do have other channels that work better for you, use those :). **You can find the templates for flyers here:** https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11cDhmukccGqWkSpuCNWhdF3jpGFHPFGc?usp=sharing Send us the copy and images to personalise them until Thursday the 24th of October or do it yourself/if that not possible we will just have it done by the designer from whatever they can find in your post with some copyright-free image. Please try to avoid that: short title short description/pitch line (line! really keep it short, have a look on the template! image Finances: Transport costs, food and such you need to pay and afterwards we will reimburse you, but invoices for facilitators and locations can be made out to anon1577251828. Ad detailed description of that will follow and be linked shortly. Updates from the projects: @anon1251979254 will take over for @anon2616197748 on the https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-service-design-in-a-climate-emergency-what-do-digital-services-in-a-world-of-net-zero-look-like/11070 she is a professional facilitator of design workshops and we are excited to have her here. The date of the event is now the 28th of October @anon3005461236 needs help to reach out to the academics and pedagogies networks in Sweden. (will post info shortly) @anon3371338499 has pinned down the location and is developing the event :slight_smile: **The wellbeing events will not go through the signup funnel via the form, but instead directly ask people to post on the platform.** @anon2945747231 stressed that she is available for any questions regarding communication and outreach. let's communicate and share! with each other and those we want to invite. Booking the venue, inviting the facilitator's speakers and core guests as well as for deciding if they need and if yes distributing flyers and information physically on location is the responsibility of the organisers. **The deliverables fo the events is having the participants sing up (see above) and post on the platform and the documentation: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/documentation-methodology-for-edgeryder-events/11202** **Be available to answer questions from people who want to participate in your event, or give us an alternative contact.** If you need a bigger team ask or hire help. If you need help to find your way, ask for it here :slight_smile: We will start pushing the events via social media this week :) recording of the call here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FdwVgXT_JDqipqU-Qp5uSyI4T0p4qso_" 2,62004,2019-10-22T18:30:44.289Z,11227,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,62001,anon1251979254,anon1753543892,"Thanks for such a quick write up @anon1753543892. As mentioned, we'll be around in the next week-esque with the workshop outline" 1,61567,2019-10-17T14:32:26.975Z,11165,0,18,17,9,0,0,123.6,61567,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Hello, dear people organising and being interested in the Festival with NGI and Wellbeing in November, Thank you to all of you who came to the call on the 15th 18:00 on ""reaching out, inviting and signing up to the festival"" and to everyone else working to organise something with us. Here is a summary of the call and the next actionable steps we discussed: **1. Organising the events themselves:** * Every organiser should be able to say if they or someone else take care of these 3 roles for their events. If it is yourself, please say so, if it is someone else, please list the name and role of that person in your event description and get us in contact with them so we can make sure they have everything they need :) : 1. **Facilitator** for workshops/talks/sessions planed. (These also include activists and participants who take a more active role in your event) 1. **Documentation organiser** Someone needs to be responsible for the coordination and partially conduct documentation for the event. Get them in contact with us to discuss our method for community documentation methods. 1. **Contact person for questions and logistics** depending on your event you might also need to name other roles such as: * (Reqiererement Engineer for hackathons) * (Matchmaking organiser for networking events) Ask yourself if you can take care of all of it, or if you need help. It will run smoother if you assign those roles. If you have a problem filling them tell us and we will try to help you find someone. Also, get the people you assign in contact with us so we can organise together more smoothly! . 2. **Outreach:** We will create a facebook event for each of the Festival events for you. IF you have questions regarding that ask @anon850704935. We also commissioned templates for flyers for social media, which you can see [here](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11cDhmukccGqWkSpuCNWhdF3jpGFHPFGc?usp=sharing). We will prepare those for you, just provide us with: 1. A short title for your event 1. A one-sentence pitch description of your event 1. An image to put onto the flyer to which you have the rights, which either connects to your topic or sanon2696444391s you or one of your speakers/facilitators in action (in that case, please give us also their name) _send those directly to me @anon1753543892 and load them up as replies to your festival thread and ping me and @anon850704935_ **We will also hire a journalist to interview all the experts and activists that are crucial to your event, their field and that we would to especially invite into the further discussion. Please provide us with the names and contact of the people coming to your event/invited to your event, which you think we should interview!** . **3. Sign Up:** We set up the sign up via the minisite (https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/festival_ticket). Everyone can sign up here and select the event they want to attend. We then answer them personally telling them anon2696444391 to activate their ticket by making a post with the organisers in cc. * Personalise the templates for the answer emails for your event: * https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cjY51Qsyl_3jtabQNLOFQxLJ6wm4kH83doy6nD78NbU/edit?usp=sharing * Give us an email address which we can cc in the answer email of those who sign up to your event :) . **4. Budget:** The Budget for For the NGI events is 12000 euro + 2500 euro for travel, for the pop rebel events there is a budget of 1000 euro per event, summing up to 3000 euro in total, which is taken from a different funding body. 1. Fill in your budget in as much detail as possible here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IIk5nCMebzEFqJ3ik4pp9vR8f65Wm5GuVCyUPgQ-o-Q/edit?usp=sharing 1. Remember to keep the receipts for anything you need to be reimbursed for 1. If what you need to pay is via invoice, like the location or the fee for the facilitator, you can have them make it out to Edgeryders directly, so you do not have to pay upfront. Contact @anon2794261635 about anon2696444391 to make those invoices. **AND most importantly: If you haven't already, finish the description of your events on the platform! @anon2682865457, @anon @anon @anon" 2,61572,2019-10-17T15:20:00.680Z,11165,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,61567,anon1679055112,anon1753543892,"Doing it now, are we supposed to do it fully in Serbian, in wellbeing>serbia part of the forum?" 3,61582,2019-10-17T16:30:30.614Z,11165,2,14,13,1,0,0,32.8,61572,anon1753543892,anon1679055112,@anon 4,61584,2019-10-17T16:33:56.809Z,11165,1,14,13,1,0,0,42.8,61582,anon1679055112,anon1753543892,"I already did everything in Serbian, to post it in wellbeing serbia part, because I saw Polish event was like that. Will put the English version for you guys. By the way I think this kind of posts about the upcoming event should be pinned to the top of each country forum part" 5,61596,2019-10-17T18:30:32.174Z,11165,2,15,14,2,0,0,68.0,61584,anon1679055112,anon1679055112,"One person I will invite is Nikola Canak, he is a very high profile speaker from Novi Sad. Would be great to have him but I wonder if he will be expensive. In any case, here is his biography: Prof. dr. dr. Dr. Canak (Dr. Nick) was educated in Novi Sad and Berkeley and has been educated at leading institutions in Europe. He holds a PhD from US universities (Stanford and Cornell) and has been a Fulbright Foundation Fellow on two occasions. He is the founder of the Education Center for Permanent Education ""NTC"" in Novi Sad, a professor at the University of Belgrade and Novi Sad. Dr. Nick has worked in 52 countries, a renowned motivator, lecturer, doctor of medical sciences, professor of communication science, master of judo anon3743211146 arts, figure skating instructor, Fulbright Foundation Fellow, author of 13 books in communication science, Network Marketing, Success Psychology. Immediate, confident, hyperactive - Professor dr. For many, Nikola Canak is a role model for a happy and meaningful life. He graduated from medicine because he wanted to be Dr. Kilder (the hero of the famous TV series of the 1960s). After 25 years, in the early 90's, in one day he emerged from the profession and opened the space for new professions: he began to pursue applied psychology and motivation. He now holds trainings and lectures attended by several thousand people. He is the creator of a complete system he called ""Total quality of life"", is a master of several anon3743211146 arts, is married and the father of seven children. @anon294806887 @anon3828707713 @anon1753543892 what would be your advice? It's not like the event will not work without him but I feel it would be very beneficial, increase our credibility and in fact, be beneficial for the whole wellbeing in Serbia project if we could get him on board in some way...not for the workshop but use the workshop to bring him in the Wellbeing in Serbia, hoping he will become our advocate of a sort locally. PS: I will have the English version of the event post by the morning, I am veeeery tired right now :slight_smile:" 6,61616,2019-10-18T07:45:45.762Z,11165,2,12,11,2,0,0,22.4,61596,anon294806887,anon1679055112,"Hei Tamara and Jasen, good joobb! So we are doing the Becej event before Belgrade? About the guest, it depends on anon2696444391 much it costs to bring him. If it fits the 1000eur event costs great, if not we can book him later next year, when it will be clearer what the community needs. A mid solution is to just interview him and see what the response is. I pinned both your events on top of the Serbian Wellbeing category. If you add photos to them, they will appear nicer on http://wellbeing.anon1577251828.eu/srb Also on that website, @anon1976898802 should have the registration form. Owen, please also send us the individual link to the form so we can post it on the platform? Thanks." 7,61617,2019-10-18T07:47:31.305Z,11165,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,61582,anon294806887,anon1753543892,"The audience aka participants needs the comms in Serbian. The outreach for this will involve more the wellbeing site than the festival site. Jasen, please don't spend too much time translating everything into English, a paragraph should do." 8,61653,2019-10-18T10:52:02.652Z,11165,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,61596,anon1753543892,anon1679055112,"@anon2945747231, @anon294806887, @anon3828707713 and @anon1679055112 could we maybe invite Dr Nick for an interview?" 9,61673,2019-10-18T12:22:13.323Z,11165,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,61653,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,"You can introduce Dr. Nick in an email to me please, and I'll set up the interview @anon1679055112 Email template for the interview invite is here (second part of the post): https://anon1577251828.eu/t/interview-framework-template-for-requesting-an-interview-via-email/10977" 10,61695,2019-10-18T14:38:30.815Z,11165,1,11,10,1,1,0,27.2,61616,anon1679055112,anon294806887,"So far the only expense for the Becej workshop is 50 euros for the venue. Let's count in 50 more for drinks. Yeah it makes sense to simply interview him and see anon2696444391 it develops. @anon2945747231 I am still waiting to see his availability for November. If you want to interview him in general for next year anyways then I will propose that to him and introduce you guys. One of the innovators from innova.rs confirmed his participation. Sending him to you for an interview as well. [quote=""anon294806887, post:6, topic:11165""] So we are doing the Becej event before Belgrade? [/quote] It was my proposal since the feedback was overwhelmingly against Sunday :slight_smile: [quote=""anon294806887, post:6, topic:11165""] If you add photos to them, they will appear nicer on http://wellbeing.anon1577251828.eu/srb [/quote] On it." 11,61699,2019-10-18T14:48:44.496Z,11165,0,12,11,1,1,0,7.4,61695,anon294806887,anon1679055112,"[quote=""anon1679055112, post:10, topic:11165""] It was my proposal since the feedback was overwhelmingly against Sunday :slight_smile: [/quote] Haha perfect." 12,61700,2019-10-18T15:00:17.908Z,11165,1,13,12,13,0,0,72.6,61567,anon1679055112,anon1753543892,"November 22, 2019 → Novembar 22, 2019 Time: 17h30 - 20h30 **Location:** 21220 Bečej, Serbia, Ulica Braće Tan 5-7. http://www.than.rs/en/ **Organisers:** [@anon **Facilitated by:** [@anon1679055112](https://anon1577251828.eu/u/anon1679055112) **Status:** Taking care of speakers and discussing with local partners **ORGANISER CHECKLIST** : Update/Create individual event descriptions with Catchy Name for the event, URL for signup form, Description of format & process, FAQs, Logistics info (address, time, date, team info) - [follow this template](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels); Give Natalia photos + statements/quotes she can use to customise design from the template: [ **@anon Organise 2 calls to develop the session topic with the confirmed speakers; conduct one on one interviews & skeleanon2863106368 posts with each participant: Call#1: Individual interviews with confirmed participants & produce skeleanon2863106368 posts *(* [ ***@anon2945747231*** ](https://anon1577251828.eu/u/anon2945747231) [ ***@anon Call#2: Group call with all confirmed participants Keep track of the festival signup form and welcome/onboard each person Formalise practical arrangements for speakers participation: *Travel, fees, onboard them on the process, organise schedule, collect bio info + photo + recommended reading materials for other participants etc* (individual organiser with support from [ **@anon Make a twitter list of Europe-based people who are interested in the topics to be covered in this session then reach out to them & more people to propose people or put themselves forward for the list - *(* [ ***@anon Prepare press/communication kit & send to local event calendar websites, journalists etc ([ **@anon Push out comms campaign for event via social media for event ([ **@anon # How do we stop the brain drain from Serbia? One of the solutions is creating a suitable environment for empowering youth. The most important resource, from any company or a country, are people. The investors put their money in people and ideas…in human potential, not in companies. Why? Because they know the company will never succeed without a great team. How can we expect to prosper as a country if we do not invest in the members of our society? That is why we decided the theme of this workshop will be creativity and entrepreneurship. Our focus is on young people: anon2696444391 to we help them fulfill their potential? What kind of support do they really need from us? From parents, from the municipality, school or various organisations working with children, like for example the social care centers? Children with difficulties functioning within standard rules and education might need our help the most. Our project was born out of that need to create an environment in which youth will flourish, in this case it will be the Becej Creative Hub, which we will present on this workshop. ## Format We are creating a partnership made of individuals and all organisations in Becej who want to contribute to empowering young people and through that improve the quality of life in their community. This workshop and the project we will present during it will be the result of a poll we conduct between teenagers of 3 high schools in Becej. It will be built through their participation as well. **Before workshop:** We connected with all 3 schools and few organisations, with goal of creating the needed partnership to and conduct the needed poll within the younger population so we can adapt the project to their needs as much as possible. **Why document everything:** The documentation from the discussions are redacted to ensure privacy of participants, then posted on the online discussion space for the festival. This enables us to do a number of things - easily reconnect with people we met across shared/complimentary interests build a high quality report summarising what knowledge has emerged from the discussions keep everyone informed about new, relevant, opportunities for professional and personal development, follow up events etc **Program:** Introduction, Who are Edgeryders (5 min + 5 min Q&A) Project “Wellbeing in Serbia”: anon2696444391 to use the platform, the importance of our stories and connecting with others (10 min + 5 min Q&A) Innovator (20 min + 10 min Q&A) Nenad Čanak (30 min + 15 min Q&A) Presenting the project “Creative Hub in Becej” (10 min + 10 min Q&A) Open discussion about the project (until the workshop end) ## Who is coming? ### To confirm still Speaker from the association of innovators, Serbia Prof. Dr. Nikola Čanak **Frequently asked questions** **How do I get an invitation/ticket to this workshop?** **How is this event being organised?** This event, and the festival it is part of, is coordinated on the anon1577251828 platform (where you are now) and co-curated through a series of community video calls. We have allocated a collaboratively managed budget for the festival and operate on a solidarity basis. Participants who need some financial support to organise or be able to participate in the festival are eligible provided they contribute towards making it a meaningful and generative experience for all - in the run up to, during and/or after the event. If you would like to join us but are unsure as to anon2696444391 to contribute, don’t worry. Create an [anon1577251828 account](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login), then [tell us a bit about yourself here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you) and we will guide you along from there. **Here the text needs to be individualised **for** your event!!!** We @anon **How is this all financed?** This project has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No 822682. **[POPREBEL_V01_BrightBlue.jpg4103×878 259 KB](https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/3/31be5dc58dc3089277de7f5cb59f2cc5787a7b6f.jpeg)** **Does getting involved mean I endorse the funders views or actions?** No. What you are doing is contributing to an open consultation on the topic of anon2696444391 to build a next generation of internet infrastructure, technologies, business models etc that promotes the wellbeing of humans and the natural environment. The consultation methodology is designed in such a way as to allow for diversity of views, premises, disciplines, themes and contexts. We employ open notebook science principles and the results will be presented in the form of a research report accessible to everyone after the event. You can follow the process, review the methodology and open source tech we are using and engage directly with the research and coordination team here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/workspace **What is the code of conduct?** The Edgeryders online platform technology and activities are intended for people to cooperate within and across projects trying to build a better world. The word “better” has here a fairly broad range of meaning. These [Community Guidelines](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/netiquette/45) are here to help you understand what it means to be a member of Edgeryders. Don’t forget that your use of Edgeryders is subject to these Community Guidelines and our [Terms of Service](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/id/44). **What happens with my data?** You can read about our [Terms of Use and Privacy Policy here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/terms-of-use-and-privacy-policy/44). Also: [Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016 on the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data, and repealing Directive 95/46/EC (General Data Protection Regulation) (Text with EEA relevance)](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.119.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:119:TOC) [Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0046) [Handbook on European Data Protection directive](http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Handbook_data_protection_ENG.pdf) [European Commission website - Protection of personal data](http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/)" 13,61701,2019-10-18T15:01:31.220Z,11165,1,12,11,5,0,0,32.4,61700,anon1679055112,anon1679055112,"Here is the post, where should I put it up? A bit confused with the format of https://anon1577251828.eu/t/festival-program-overview/10731 I see that's a summary of all but the original posts are elsewhere. What to do with the English one? Put it in the campfire part? :slight_smile:" 14,61704,2019-10-18T15:13:46.825Z,11165,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,61701,anon1753543892,anon1679055112,Set the post in Serbian and English both up as event posts in wellbeing. Than post the links here and I will take care of the tagging and linking them with each other so it gets pushed to the festival minisite 15,61709,2019-10-18T17:49:52.147Z,11165,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,61616,anon1976898802,anon294806887,"@anon294806887 The form is up: http://tell.anon1577251828.eu/blagostanje For now the site links to the external form, but it can be embedded in the page if it's a preference. Let me know if there is anything that needs changing/updating." 16,61711,2019-10-18T18:14:21.905Z,11165,0,11,10,2,0,0,27.2,61704,anon1679055112,anon1753543892,"English: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/becej-serbia-workshop-creativity-and-entrepreneurship-empowering-youth-for-better-future/11188 Serbian: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/radionica-u-beceju-kreativnost-i-preduzetnistvo-ulagenje-u-mlade-za-bolju-buducnost-srbije/11170/2" 17,61712,2019-10-18T18:16:01.496Z,11165,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,61567,anon1679055112,anon1753543892,"As far as documentation is concerned, which methods should we use? In order to find a person who can do it I need a bit more info about the ""job description""" 18,61715,2019-10-18T19:31:34.286Z,11165,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,61567,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,Great! @anon294806887 could you introduce the documentation method to @anon1679055112 or share a post that describes it? 19,61718,2019-10-18T20:40:47.137Z,11165,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,61715,anon294806887,anon1753543892,"There should be a section in the Engagement strategy Google folder. I can check and turn it into a post, sure." 20,61720,2019-10-19T07:52:10.378Z,11165,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,61567,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,@anon659222949 @anon2945747231 @anon3093654461 could you be the documentation crew for the Justice and AI workshop? 21,61721,2019-10-19T08:16:31.846Z,11165,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,61720,anon2945747231,anon3828707713,would be my pleasure! 22,61753,2019-10-20T17:22:21.291Z,11165,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,61567,anon2682865457,anon1753543892,"Checking with my folx, will get back asap :)" 23,61754,2019-10-20T17:32:57.565Z,11165,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,61567,anon2682865457,anon1753543892,"My co-hosts would like some more information about anon2696444391 the documentation should work before they sign up to the role, is there somewhere they could read more about this?" 24,61757,2019-10-20T18:16:32.903Z,11165,1,10,9,1,0,0,42.0,61567,anon2682865457,anon1753543892,"The person I would like to invite is Ira Schevski http://shevski.com/ - founder of the re-decentralize organization https://redecentralize.org/ @anon1753543892 Here's the description text about her from her website: > I specialise in digital strategy, leadership, interfacing between tech and non-technical stakeholders, building communities, policy and supporting teams to deliver effectively. With particular expertise in data, open data, data platforms, standards, privacy and decentralised technology. > > I led the [ckan](http://ckan.org/) open source data platform to international adoption, served on [ Open Knowledge](https://okfn.org/)’s senior management team and now as a board member and developed the personal data infrastructure programme within the UK’s Government Digital Service. I have developed national and federal policy, regulatory, commercial and technical frameworks for city-wide information marketplaces and am currently running a data trust pilot and advising on digital identity for the [Open Data Institute](https://theodi.org/)." 25,61759,2019-10-20T19:47:24.595Z,11165,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,61757,anon1753543892,anon2682865457,"Sounds great :). And you said you are already planning to interview her? When? Would be great if you could do it soonish, than we could also use the transcript for reach out :). Do you need more budget to invite her?" 26,61836,2019-10-21T13:50:50.018Z,11165,0,10,9,4,0,0,22.0,61754,anon1753543892,anon2682865457,"@anon2682865457, here is a description of our documentation methodology https://anon1577251828.eu/t/documentation-methodology-for-edgeryder-events/11202" 27,61994,2019-10-22T17:05:01.765Z,11165,1,8,7,2,0,0,61.6,61673,anon1679055112,anon2945747231,"https://anon1577251828.eu/t/kako-zadrzati-mlade-ljude-kreativnost-i-preduzetnistvo-ulaganje-u-mlade-za-bolju-buducnost-srbije-radionica-u-beceju/11170/2 If this is the post you wanted me to update with location etc, I did. Also changed the title a bit to make it better looking/faster hook when we send the link to someone :slight_smile:" 28,61995,2019-10-22T17:07:41.539Z,11165,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,61994,anon2945747231,anon1679055112,Thank you so much! @anon850704935 take note :) 1,61847,2019-10-21T15:07:57.938Z,11207,1,8,7,42,0,0,216.6,61847,anon3086952555,anon3086952555,"Through [Patrick (Sentiers)](https://sentiers.media/) I stumbled upon this [interview with Vaclav Smil](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/sep/21/vaclav-smil-interview-growth-must-end-economists), expert craftsman of crunching numbers — I figure there might be people on the platform that have opinions and ideas to share around these ideas? Smil does a stanon4205961763r job arguing that degrowth doesn’t necessarily mean *cutting down on all things* but rather that growth and degrowth are essentially tools to use depending on context. For example, some countries below a certain poverty threshold should focus on growth (towards lower mortality, and increased nutrition and education) while other, richer countries could easily cut down and not miss much at all: > “Once you reach a certain point, the benefits of GDP growth start to level off in terms of mortality, nutrition and education. (…) We could halve our energy and material consumption and this would put us back around the level of the 1960s. We could cut down without losing anything important. Life wasn’t horrible in 1960s or 70s Europe. People from Copenhagen would no longer be able to fly to Singapore for a three-day visit, but so what? Not much is going to happen to their lives. People don’t realise anon2696444391 much slack in the system we have.” > ""To answer this, it’s important not to talk in global terms. There will be many approaches which have to be tailored and targeted to each different audience. There is **this pernicious idea by this Thomas Friedman guy that the world is flat and everything is now the same, so what works in one place can work for everyone. But that’s totally wrong.** For example, Denmark has nothing in common with Nigeria. What you do in each place will be different. What we need in Nigeria is more food, more growth. In Philippines we need a anon2488317424 more of it. And in Canada and Sweden, we need less of it. We have to look at it from different points of view. **In some places we have to foster what economists call de-growth. In other places, we have to foster growth.** It’s a fascinating debate, and certainly going to be a defining one for our era. The other day, my hairdresser gave me an unprompted lecture on anon2696444391 kerosene prices were too low and need to go up to prevent us from taking short term, long distance travel too often. If that isn’t a sign of this debate entering mainstream then I don’t know what is. *The times they’re a changing.* See also this fascinating [XOXO talk by boat-based, ocean-roaming design studio Hundred Rabbits](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW32yUEymvU) on degrowth and resilience as a personal lifestyle, and anon2696444391 digital tools need to evolve to cope with limited bandwidth, energy and space." 2,61870,2019-10-21T19:35:56.085Z,11207,0,7,6,1,1,0,21.4,61847,anon3197437925,anon3086952555,"[quote=""anon3086952555, post:1, topic:11207""] > People don’t realise anon2696444391 much slack in the system we have. [/quote] _That_ is certainly true. The first targets for degrowth would be killing all that waste and bullshit in the system. To illustrate that point, Graeber's well-know rant [about bullshit jobs](https://www.strike.coop/bullshit-jobs/) comes to mind. And also one of @anon930409743's books – I remember anon2696444391 I loved that piece of fine work when I found it a few years ago, because it expressed for the first time exactly anon2696444391 I had always felt that modern society as a whole is not efficient at all in spite of all the automation and technology: https://c4ss.org/content/5580 If I remember correctly, his result is that at least 40% of the 2010 U.S. American society's GDP is just that: production of waste. In other words, on average people could enjoy four-day weekends and nothing with fall apart. [quote=""anon3086952555, post:1, topic:11207""] [XOXO talk by boat-based, ocean-roaming design studio Hundred Rabbits](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW32yUEymvU) on degrowth and resilience as a personal lifestyle [/quote] Great find, I'm sure I'll enjoy that one :)" 3,61874,2019-10-21T20:46:11.854Z,11207,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,61847,anon3828707713,anon3086952555,"It's a hard sell - the word itself implies (unpleasant) sacrifices for somebody(ies) and that somebody might be you :) There isa reason so much money is thrown at metaphor crafters, framing of narratives etc." 1,61860,2019-10-21T16:51:52.027Z,11212,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,61860,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-tech-breakingviews/breakingviews-u-s-tech-implosion-is-opportunity-for-european-vc-idUSKBN1X01M4 1,61813,2019-10-21T12:20:33.783Z,11201,0,18,17,8,0,0,103.6,61813,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![community calls%20logo%2022nd%20of%20October%20%5BRecovered%5D-01|690x487](upload://4QaUsLM4nXfqSXhzApn5u5tSsjD.png) Hello dear organisers and festival enthusiasts! In a month time, the first events will have happened! We are excited and lots of things are happening. Therefore this is a good time to get together, update each other on our status and needs and to discuss strategy, anon2696444391 to help and also fun stuff like afterparties: slight_smile! Please try to make it to the call on Tuesday the 22nd of October 18:00 Brussels time as usually. @anon3554387720, @anon3747875924, @anon3005461236, @anon All the best and looking forward to seeing you there! Here is the new zoom link: https://zoom.us/j/489971765" 2,61828,2019-10-21T13:33:35.724Z,11201,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,61813,anon294806887,anon1753543892,Replaced 23rd with 22nd. It seemed that it was a mistake. 3,61834,2019-10-21T13:46:30.180Z,11201,0,2,1,0,0,0,0.4,61828,anon1753543892,anon294806887,thank you very much! 1,61777,2019-10-21T07:52:46.177Z,11197,0,17,16,16,0,0,128.4,61777,anon2670920295,anon2670920295,"I am writing to you from COACT: the Centre for Open & Appropriate Critical Technology. [www.coactlab.org](http://www.coactlab.org/) We wanted to inform the Edgeryder community regarding an upcoming forest-related incubation program to find solutions to protect and regenerate our forests. COACT works with early-stage, environmentally focussed technology projects & companies to grow their potential into actual impact. Unlike typical incubators, our objective is to maximise this positive impact rather than profit. We are young, idealistic, and deeply driven towards these ends. Please find details about the upcoming program below: We would be extremely grateful if you can share with your networks to help us find potential participants to join us. **Forest Protections & Regeneration Incubation** In December, we are launching our second phase, in which we will incubate two companies or projects working towards Forest Protection & Regeneration. Both projects will come to live and work from the Valldaura campus 20 minutes outside of Barcelona in Spain from December to mid February 2020. Here they will have access to the Green Fab Lab (digital fabrication and prototyping facilities), a traditional wood shop (carpentry machines and tools), a micro permaculture farm, and 130 hectares of surrounding forest. Also included are food, accomodation and more general workspace. We are currently in talks with a [project named Dronecoria](http://dronecoria.org/en/main/), who have designed a system of open source flying drones to distribute seeds and replant forests from the air. We are currently on the lookout for other projects aligned with the objectives of Forest Protection & Regeneration. We thought that many members of this community may be well placed to know of early stage technology projects or companies in this area. If this is the case, we would be delighted to hear from you indicating the projects and people behind them. A few things to be aware of in their criteria: * They should be early stage and able to benefit from the facilities & services we provide. * They should be ideally european based, though we would likely make exceptions for an amazing project further afield. * They should be willing and able to commit to the incubator for the duration, with a 2 week break over Christmas and New Years. * They should be open to being filmed and document their work (our program is probably not appropriate for closed, traditionally corporate-style companies or projects). * The attendees will need to be capped at 2 people per team" 2,61803,2019-10-21T10:28:33.938Z,11197,1,13,12,15,0,0,97.6,61777,anon1753543892,anon2670920295,"@anon3554387720, do you think that maybe a team of your hackathon participants could be interested in this?" 3,61821,2019-10-21T13:05:53.507Z,11197,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,61803,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,"Not sure yet, we haven't pushed out the news et, or have received project proposals yet. Although I know of 2 teams that want to apply. Question would be if a team of @anon2670920295 would be interested to join the hackathon?" 4,61825,2019-10-21T13:10:52.466Z,11197,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,61821,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"@anon3554387720 and @anon2670920295, sounds like it would be great if you two would talk. The community call tomorrow evening 18:00 might be a good oportunity to start doing so: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/edgeryder-festival-community-call-where-are-we-where-do-we-want-to-go-23rd-october/11201" 5,86887,2020-11-13T14:46:35.649Z,11197,0,2,1,0,0,0,0.4,61777,anon1753543892,anon2670920295,@anon3828707713 just came about this again while going through the old posts. Is this maybe relevant fo the new proposals on green solutions stuff? 1,52586,2019-04-15T21:57:55.236Z,9731,1,48,47,25,0,0,261.6,52586,anon1522032836,anon1522032836,"Like the system in plants the project is named after, phloem will help control the transfer and storage of energy. As our grid becomes more decentralised, with more people capable of producing and storing energy we need a decentralised way of managing it. Building a protocol and hardware that form a decentralised system that is secure, user friendly and can interact well with the grid is tall order. But we have to start somewhere. To start with I'm going to be trying to talk to people using microgrids currently, NGOs, scientists etc, about their use cases and needs. I'll also be talking to decentralised protocol developers to get insight into developing the right protocol. Ideally I would use the most suitable protocol to build some prototypes to do user testing with. About me: Currently employed as a site reliability engineer, I have good insight into protocols and hardware and also a strong belief in user centred design. I also enjoy hanging out on ssb." 2,52587,2019-04-15T23:26:35.939Z,9731,1,48,47,1,0,0,19.6,52586,anon659222949,anon1522032836,"Hi @anon1522032836 and welcome. Are you documenting your work somewhere? Is this at the idea stage, or further along?" 3,52594,2019-04-16T07:28:03.449Z,9731,0,40,39,1,0,0,13.0,52587,anon1522032836,anon659222949,"Hi @anon Very much the idea stage. I plan to create a dat website at some point soonish." 4,52640,2019-04-16T20:44:13.851Z,9731,1,37,36,1,0,0,122.4,52586,anon3197437925,anon1522032836,"Interesting topic :) I remember I once put together an idea collection / design outline for a ""village grid"" system for Nepal. Not exactly your usecase of things connected to the national grid, as I don't believe in anything beyond local P2P grids. It's rather something ""very self-manageable"" for a remote village setting, using SELV technology and a kind of household-level ""energy router"". Which would employ a supply-and-demand matching and demand planning protocol similar to what you seem to have in mind. (If you are interested in more details, I could try to find my notes again.)" 5,52672,2019-04-18T19:05:22.095Z,9731,1,30,29,3,0,0,116.0,52640,anon1522032836,anon3197437925,"Yes that sounds very similar, it would be great to get the notes. I'm thinking about designing the communication protocols to start with and aiming in the long term to get an ecosystem of different hardware and user facing apps to adopt those protocols. So the exact method of planning loads/etc would evolve over time. Ideally I'd like if it worked in the grid and also off grid scenario. Lots of people will be living on the grid for a while and having predictable/coordinated loads could reduce greenhouse gas emissions by a lot. The larger scale that entails would also make the equipment a lot cheaper and the software more robust for all concerned. Grid attatched would require buy in from national grid operators and governments, which might be harder to get. I'll pursue both avenues for the moment and see what develops." 6,52673,2019-04-18T22:35:12.990Z,9731,0,27,26,1,1,0,55.4,52672,anon3197437925,anon1522032836,"[quote=""anon1522032836, post:5, topic:9731""]Yes that sounds very similar, it would be great to get the notes.[/quote] Here they are :) As you see, these are just notes, so don't be surprised about weird and messy content. Mostly these are plans for an electronics project. But you might find the survey of existing technology and open source projects relevant, esp. the VE.direct protocol and emonPi. Offgrid Energy System Notes (HTML, 99 kiB) (The file will open directly in the browser, replacing the site navigation. Click on + to unfold the list. It's exported from [FreeMind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeMind).) [quote=""anon1522032836, post:5, topic:9731""]Grid attatched would require buy in from national grid operators and governments[/quote] Yes if it's about people feeding back into the grid. Not if it's about demand planning and all locally produced electricity is consumed locally or via direct connections to neighboring houses. The grid would still be a failover solution and backup, but there would be no need for the expensive certification process of grid-tried inverters. For more details about this concept, see: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-much-better-solution-for-solar-self-consumption/9030" 7,53187,2019-05-07T11:53:21.647Z,9731,2,22,21,1,1,0,19.4,52586,anon1753543892,anon1522032836,"@anon1522032836 thank you very much for describing your project! Sounds amazing. [quote=""anon1522032836, post:1, topic:9731""] To start with I’m going to be trying to talk to people using microgrids currently, NGOs, scientists etc, about their use cases and needs. I’ll also be talking to decentralised protocol developers to get insight into developing the right protocol. [/quote] Feel free to invite those conversation partners of you to our platform as well! What are the next steps you are planning? Is there anything specific you feel you would need to get off the ground? If yes, please share your calls for ideas, collaborators or meetings here with and images so we can share them further and help each other to grow this bigger :)." 8,53188,2019-05-07T11:54:54.717Z,9731,0,22,21,1,0,0,9.4,53187,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,Yes we would include calls to them in our social media outreach channels and help spread the invitation out if we know where to point them. 9,53212,2019-05-07T20:16:50.598Z,9731,1,22,21,1,0,0,14.4,53187,anon1522032836,anon1753543892,">What are the next steps you are planning? I'm going to create a website explaining the concept more to use in comms. I've not had much time recently to do anything on this, next week is my next bit of free time." 10,53310,2019-05-10T12:22:26.604Z,9731,1,22,21,4,0,0,29.4,53212,anon3086952555,anon1522032836,"Hi @anon1522032836, This is a tall order indeed, and you seem like you've got the background and experience to take a credible stab at it. I don't know the first thing about energy grids but I do know about the power of collaboration in large scale endeavors; would you indulge me for a sec and help me and others here understand which the most relevant communities are that you'd need to work with in order to make progress on this? For example, if you'd like to tackle a disease of some kind, you'd likely want some university medical centers involved as well as medical folks with experience in the relevant locales, and maybe some NGOs on the ground with the means to reach out onsite. What would be the equivalents for you, which are the kinds of complementary skills or networks you'd need to have the best chance of making this work, or where do you see existing work that could be leveraged to get there?" 11,53582,2019-05-16T11:23:44.548Z,9731,0,21,20,1,0,0,9.2,53310,anon1522032836,anon3086952555,"Hi @anon3086952555 , There are multiple different scenarios it could be deployed in and depending upon which scenario you are going for depends upon who you talk to. 1. On earth, micro-grid scenarios with equipment from multiple different people: You would want to talk to NGOs/ and other orgs that set up away from current infrastructure and need something to manage demand/flow. 2. Grid attached solar/battery/e-vehicle setups: You would need to talk to grid management companies (e.g. National Grid PLC in the uk) and the governmental regulators. 3. In space, micro-grid scenarios with equipment from multiple different people: ESA, NASA, blue origin, CNSA. You would need to do scenario two to achieve significant CO2 reductions, but it might best be approached from trying to achieve scenario one or three first. Currently I don't know which scenario is the easiest to approach, so I have to think about all three. I'm a anon2488317424 burned out from my previous project and current job stress, so it might well take me a while build networks or skills. I'm working slowly on some [stories](https://anon1522032836.github.io/phloem/rover.html) to try and make concrete what my current thoughts are, to spark future conversations." 12,53591,2019-05-16T15:09:23.035Z,9731,0,19,18,1,0,0,23.8,52586,anon1753543892,anon1522032836,"@anon3086952555 Thank you very much for your thoughtful questions and interest in learning about and in pushing the interesting project further! @anon1522032836 Thank you for the mapping out of those initial scenarios. We hope you can find all the time and energy you need and that this community can help you with that. I find your approach with the stories extremely interesting! I think it would be great if you would also post them here in the stories category with a small introduction and maybe an image if you have one. Those could be great to connect to more people and draw interest and collaborator into the project, and we would be happy to share those as well :)" 13,54065,2019-05-28T08:58:32.812Z,9731,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,52586,anon2897324087,anon1522032836,"I think this is really pretty on point, but surely there must be some project trying to acchieve this already out there? I dont know of any myself though, but it makes sense, so if not, its over due to start working on it... :)" 14,54108,2019-05-28T22:16:52.708Z,9731,1,15,14,1,0,0,28.0,54065,anon1522032836,anon2897324087,"Hi Julia. There are lots of people building different bits that solve some of these problems. Energy companies have some protocols for communicating with smart meters, but it is not standardised so your smart meter [might lose smart functionality](https://www.ovoenergy.com/help/can-i-switch-energy-suppliers-if-ive-got-a-smart-meter) when switching supplier. Another example of solving part of the problem is the [sion car](https://sonomotors.com/en/sharing/) can choose to share it's energy but mainly through the centralised app. This means you are reliant on an internet connection in order to be able to share your car and have the other potential problems inherent in relying on a centralised service (such as it going away or becoming less reliable). You also may want to share your energy on a mutual credit basis rather than selling it, so it may not suit you. I don't know of anyone who is trying to solve it in a decentralised way. These ways are hard to monetise and so hard to build a company around. But there may be something I don't know about." 15,61438,2019-10-15T14:31:46.869Z,9731,3,12,11,2,0,0,57.4,54108,anon3708943593,anon1522032836,"Hi there! This was a great conversation to read and code. I was anon2696444391ever wondering anon2696444391 people feel about the privacy concerns inherent to smart-meters. Some cities (like Amsterdam) have made them mandatory. A friend of mine, permanently DDoS his meter to prevent the energy company from getting in-vivo updates on his energy use. Because does not see why this is necessary given the fact that the by-hand measuring system also works. There is also the question of the accuracy of such smart meters: https://www.powerengineeringint.com/2017/03/07/dutch-study-sparks-smart-meter-design-flaw-controversy/ Anyways, Just my .2 cents" 16,61441,2019-10-15T15:00:19.675Z,9731,1,12,11,1,0,0,57.4,61438,anon3203746736,anon3708943593,"Where I live in northern California the controversy about smart meters was not so much privacy but the radiation waves it puts out when it 'phones home' which they do on and off all day. Many here are also freaked out about wifi and cell towers, to the point that some parents a few years ago made the local high school remove their school-wide wifi system. But then, where I live many people are convinced that airplanes leave ""chem trails"" in their path that are meant to make us all dumber or turn us into sheep or something along those lines." 17,61483,2019-10-16T00:41:03.104Z,9731,0,11,10,1,1,0,52.2,61441,anon3197437925,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:16, topic:9731""] where I live many people are convinced that airplanes leave “chem trails” in their path that are meant to make us all dumber or turn us into sheep [/quote] Turns out, they are half right. Airplanes leave chemtrails of CO2 that make the climate hotter … :worried:" 18,61486,2019-10-16T06:34:26.488Z,9731,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,52586,anon3708943593,anon1522032836,"Interesting (yet not surprising) to see anon2696444391 the same technologies raise different societal question based on the various broader political discussions they're embedded in (i.e. efficiency through smart meters in the netherlands, conspiracy + health in the us, and environmental concerns in many countries). Academics tend to talk about this phenomenon in terms of ""domestication theory"" which holds that people integrate (and subvert) technologies into their lives on their terms, rather than just wholesale taking or using them as given by their designers. Would love to read more on anon2696444391 the domestication of technologies (like wifi or 5G) leads to different societal concerns and hence, to different civil society and regulatory responses. Anyways, did not mean to hog this thread with unrelated musings. So back to the electricity grid ;-)" 19,61520,2019-10-16T16:14:59.172Z,9731,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,52586,anon3203746736,anon1522032836,"Who does use microgrids today? The county I live in - Mendocino in California - has the highest per capita number of off-grid houses in the country. But I don't think there are microgrids here." 20,61555,2019-10-17T11:24:35.641Z,9731,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,61438,anon1753543892,anon3708943593,Thank you for this feedback and re invigoration of the discussion! 21,61595,2019-10-17T18:27:49.958Z,9731,3,12,11,1,0,0,52.4,61438,anon1522032836,anon3708943593,"Hi ! My idea for Phloem is that the data would be owned and controlled by the user ideally. My idea for phloem is partially based on [secure scuttle butt](https://ssbc.github.io/scuttlebutt-protocol-guide/), where your various computers could follow your smart meter and store the data long term. It gets more complicated when you try and figure out anon2696444391 much data to send to the energy companies. In a normal grid tied situation they need pretty accurate data, so they can both bill and predict energy demands. In a situation where you have your own battery they only need to know your demand for grid energy (and predicted demand), not your entire energy usage. This could hide some demand and preserve privacy a bit more, so they can't necessarily tell when you are home based on your energy usage, etc. It both situations (and a long time from now, barring government regulation), you could imagine smart meters only sending their daily usage on a per house basis and the energy companies getting combined usage data from substations. This would still allow power companies to predict demand accurately. Just to let people know why I am not working on this at the moment, I haven't had much engagement from the protocol design people. So it seems unlikely to help with CO2 emissions in the next 10-20 years, which was my hope. It would need significant investment and interest from lots of different parties and lack of engagement from the people I expected to be most interested was pretty discouraging overall. So I am currently looking at putting my technical skills behind things that will either definitely help a small amount in a short time frame, or potentially help a lot in the long time frame." 22,61645,2019-10-18T10:17:03.473Z,9731,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,61595,anon1753543892,anon1522032836,"Ping @anon2682865457, what do you think about this based on your experience with scuttelbug?" 23,61752,2019-10-20T17:19:26.503Z,9731,0,10,9,24,0,0,137.0,61595,anon2682865457,anon1522032836,"Heya Eb! I didn't know you were thinking in this direction but it's exciting to hear! How far along are you in the project and can one read more about it somewhere? Also, where abouts are you physically now? Edgeryders is hosting a festival all around and the one in Malmö will be gathering some people from Scuttlebutt as well as having a deep green theme. Let's speak more about it as soon as we meet. Thank you @anon1753543892 for picking up on this :cherry_blossom:" 24,61805,2019-10-21T10:51:40.273Z,9731,1,8,7,2,0,0,16.6,61595,anon1753543892,anon1522032836,"@anon1522032836, @anon3554387720 s organising a hackathon for impactful project ideas in November in Berlin: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-22-11-berlin/10769 and COAT lab (@anon2670920295) has opened a call for an incubator residency for green tech solutions in the early stages: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/environmental-tech-incubator-in-barcelona-looking-for-forest-protection-regeneration-projects/11197 Are any of those interesting for you and your collaborators?" 25,61820,2019-10-21T13:04:31.227Z,9731,0,8,7,1,0,0,36.6,61805,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,"Hey @anon2670920295, @anon1522032836, @anon1753543892 Maybe one of the teams of COAT or you @anon1522032836 wanna join the hackathon? Seems like a great opportunity to refine the concept, find collaborators an connect with the community." 1,54210,2019-05-30T12:11:05.230Z,10033,0,17,16,13,0,0,83.4,54210,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"Join me in Aarhus at IoT Week. https://sites.grenadine.co/sites/iot/en/aarhus-2019/schedule/3500/Discussing%20Next%20Generation%20Internet%20Technology%20and%20Policy%20Workshop How can we ensure not making the same mistakes as with the (failed) smart city (applications), but co-create services in the vertical applications (body/health, home/energy, car/sharing, region/collective intelligence) with all stakeholders including citizens? In this workshop we want to investigate the procedure of embedding these ideas and requirements in a Digital Signature for the Infrastructure. This has the important bonus it no longer matters who hosts the data and which platforms it runs, as the liability, accountability, procurement, GDPR and Cybersecurity Act compliance is in situational contracts (term Christian Nold), thus ensuring the new insights (fostering new services) stay well known to all stakeholders. In earlier workshops of NGI Forward WP3 the realization was made that in these 5G environments all entities (whether persons, goods, objects or situations) will be given federated and temporary identities, as in the case of an accident with the connected car in which all ‘stakeholders’ (the car, the person, the lantern pole that is hit, the water that the crashes into that is polluted…) receive temporary identities the ensemble of which becomes the ‘virtual accident’ the liability and accountability is administered on. Currently eIDas is the digital signature for persons, GS1 is providing product codes (‘passports’) for goods and coelition.org is mapping and numbering everyday activities. In these environments AI will run in the network and robotic capabilities are built in to function semi-auanon2863106368omously, the agency to name the combinations of the temporary and federated (attribute-based) identities will be vital to creating new services. Currently this agency is in the hands of GAFA and BAT. In the case of architectures the first Salon put forward four building blocks. The *first* is that in an *Internet of Humans* , or *Next Generation Internet* , trust can be tokenized but only within a situation of already established trust between people, meaning there has to be a social understanding before it can be technically articulated, can we talk about communities and everyday life. The *second* is successful anticipatory regulation: “joint-up multidisciplinary regulation through collaboration platforms on AI that include startups, think-tanks and academia, large and medium-sized companies, governments and their ethics commissions, civil society and activists.”The *third* is to explore building institution like entities with the concepts of *data utilities* and the work of Neil Lawrence and Sylvie Delacroix who propose *data trusts* as a bottom-up mechanism whereby data-subjects choose to pool their data within the legal framework of the Trust. The *fourth* is to include potential third-party trust providers are seemingly neutral organizations that have a large member base organized around for example mobility (in the Netherlands the ANWB has a membership of 4.446.528 (1-1-2017). In January 2018, for example, the various accounts of FC Barcelona surpassed 180 million engagements worldwide. One could also consider alumni groups of different schools." 2,54258,2019-05-30T20:17:47.491Z,10033,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,54210,anon3214242932,anon3554654177,Interesting! I think that I cannot make it to the workshop. What you describe sounds advanced and thought through but I wonder - is it easy for the user? :slight_smile: Have you also looked at the MyData-framework? https://mydata.org/ 3,54261,2019-05-30T20:33:58.304Z,10033,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,54258,anon3554654177,anon3214242932,"Not in detail yet, but I will. I was put in touch with one of the people behind it and will have a conversation soon. It is part of the picture." 4,54273,2019-05-30T21:41:47.270Z,10033,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,54210,anon659222949,anon3554654177,"@anon2682865457, are you around then?" 5,54278,2019-05-30T23:35:20.446Z,10033,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,54210,anon3203746736,anon3554654177,@anon3086952555? 6,54283,2019-05-31T06:02:14.209Z,10033,1,13,12,1,0,0,72.6,54278,anon3554654177,anon3203746736,"I know Peter well, Thingscon and Council are good friends." 7,54493,2019-06-04T09:42:08.714Z,10033,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,54283,anon3086952555,anon3554654177,"This looks amazing! Alas I won't be able to make June 17th (my partner is traveling and I'll have the 18 month old)... *very* much looking forward to following along remotely, though!" 8,54498,2019-06-04T10:18:35.506Z,10033,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,54210,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"Hi Peter, nice to meet you here! I will be in touch in mail soon on setting up something together possibly in Berlin. Will keep you updated with notes on the June sessions at IoT Week! Rob" 9,61691,2019-10-18T14:19:04.877Z,10033,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,54210,anon3708943593,anon3554654177,"Hi Rob, Thanks for posting this piece. I had a quick follow up re: situational contracts. Can you give me a bit more context as to what those are and do? I peeked around the Internet a bit but could not find much and am interested to learn more. Kind regards, Corinne" 1,58526,2019-08-28T13:07:49.988Z,10637,0,30,29,11,0,0,106.0,58526,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Dear community members, The responses to the Edgeryder Festival Call so far have sanon2696444391n that Berlin will be one of the hotspots for the ""real life"" meetings, events and workshops during the Edgeryders festival. (others are Brussels, Warsaw and Stockholm for example). Especially the events planned n berlin will be very hands-on workshops and hackathons as it fits the community there very well. This means that we need to have locations for hose events. @anon2616197748 and @anon @anon And also: Please sign up for the Festival and tell us where and anon2696444391 you would like to participate here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D_CMPm43FDXg5EE_5zDk6C_A_yG6s25HrH4wPuRRP7I/edit?usp=sharing @anon" 2,58539,2019-08-28T20:01:37.023Z,10637,0,29,28,1,0,0,25.8,58526,anon659222949,anon1753543892,I think @anon3556768308 also spends considerable time in Berlin? And @anon 3,58541,2019-08-29T07:11:57.407Z,10637,1,23,22,2,0,0,34.6,58526,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,@anon 4,58544,2019-08-29T08:01:45.090Z,10637,1,22,21,1,0,0,59.4,58541,anon2719157517,anon3828707713,"There's a venue ran by my friends with a kitchen, in Neukolln, that I would always love to support - we did Culture Culture there in May. It's an art/biohacking space run by a collective. But it's not very big www.top-ev.de" 5,58545,2019-08-29T08:07:51.315Z,10637,0,22,21,1,0,0,69.4,58544,anon2719157517,anon2719157517,"Another idea would be to tie it with events we're organizing with the NGO I co-founded in Berlin, Experimentelle Zukunfstlabor - we have a long-term partnership with German Federal Association for Sustainability and they offered us spaces for free in their office, which is pretty well located between Kreuzberg and Mitte. https://nachhaltigkeit.bvng.org/ueber-bvng/management/" 6,58550,2019-08-29T09:11:13.060Z,10637,2,20,19,5,0,0,84.0,58526,anon1608948641,anon1753543892,"I could also try to contact the Supermarkt at Mehringplatz, they focus on decentralized governship and similar things - I could see this as adjacent. But the German Federal Association for Sustainability sounds great too!" 7,58551,2019-08-29T09:19:31.609Z,10637,0,20,19,1,0,0,24.0,58550,anon2719157517,anon1608948641,"They're actually neighbours! and my friend is collaborating with Supermarkt, i'd love to finally meet them" 8,58556,2019-08-29T10:25:44.632Z,10637,1,20,19,1,0,0,14.0,58550,anon3828707713,anon1608948641,oh you can talk to @anon 9,58560,2019-08-29T11:39:32.420Z,10637,1,20,19,1,0,0,29.0,58526,anon2616197748,anon1753543892,"What is the capacity we'd be aiming for? I'm a fan of supermarkt too, and I think it has space for up to 100 ppl easily, with AV for events anyway. I'll be free to join the planning call next week." 10,58562,2019-08-29T11:41:15.097Z,10637,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,58560,anon1753543892,anon2616197748,"@anon2616197748, I will add another sheet to fill in location needs and estimated event sizes" 11,59747,2019-09-23T09:53:31.424Z,10637,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,58526,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Hello dear Edgeryders and great Tech for Good event developers in Berlin. Ideas have developed. @anon2616197748 and @anon3554387720 both want to have their main workshop on the 22nd. We were wondering if you would like to/could have it in the same location if one of the options is big enough for two groups of up to 20 people if I understand correctly? That would allow us to work together for set up and food and the participants could meet up during the lunch break for some cross-pollination? @anon3086952555, maybe your talk could fit in there in the evening? Or the following day, since Olivers team will stay around for multiple days. (which means they also look for sleepable places if possible) Please reinvigorate this thread and discuss and plan if you would like to join and were, and if not, still where else those events could happen independently :)." 12,59823,2019-09-24T14:57:26.384Z,10637,2,16,15,1,0,0,33.2,58556,anon3086952555,anon3828707713,"If you're not already in touch with Ela, I'm happy to make introductions @anon2616197748 @anon3554387720 Sorry I've been missing calls, so I'm not 100% up to speed; Chris, reckon some smart city / responsible tech governance related talk would add value to your current plans?" 13,60153,2019-09-30T13:05:33.824Z,10637,0,14,13,1,0,0,37.8,59823,anon1608948641,anon3086952555,"I've just talked with Ela: The Supermarkt could host on 20., 21. or 22. , I've taken the liberty of nailing the 22nd for now. As to the current plans: The more topics, the better I think! (also, Ela actually does not have an account here, I'm for now a go-between)." 14,60334,2019-10-01T17:00:59.047Z,10637,1,14,13,1,0,0,42.8,58526,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"ping @anon Hello :), we heard that you might have some good contacts and ideas for where and anon2696444391 to do workshop events in Berlin." 15,60347,2019-10-01T18:32:11.952Z,10637,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,60334,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,@anon1753543892 did you see ^^ @anon1608948641 post above re venue? 16,60359,2019-10-02T03:19:30.294Z,10637,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,60347,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"Yes, Sounds good" 17,60360,2019-10-02T03:21:45.473Z,10637,0,14,13,2,0,0,42.8,58526,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,To all of the organisers in Berlin: How would you like next week's community call focusing on coordinating locally overlapping events? 18,60404,2019-10-02T11:14:38.337Z,10637,0,15,14,2,0,0,28.0,59823,anon2616197748,anon3086952555,"hi @anon3086952555 - yes, that would definitely help provide some useful context. The stuff I had in mind for running was a half day, afternoon workshop. I'm wondering whether, assuming we are able to use the same venue, it might be worth finding a selection of speakers to provide some context, in the morning. You can see the overview here https://anon1577251828.eu/t/festival-program-overview/10731" 19,60929,2019-10-08T14:43:09.576Z,10637,2,12,11,2,0,0,37.4,58526,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,"Just now stumbling over this thread. Sorry for the late enter! So the [Hackathon we planned](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-22-11-berlin/10769) will be during the whole weekend from 22-24. Topically it seems as if there are anon2373157426 some overlaps, and it would be great to be able to bring together the whole community. I figured it would be nice if a potential location we shared has the ability to still split the groups for their specific purposes on the 22nd. In our case we want to make quick intros of the participants/projects and the schedule of the weekend itself and then later go into socialising. Saturday morning is probably the Warm Data Lab about sustainability and then hacking/making until Sunday evening. I guess we are going to be around 40 people. > To all of the organisers in Berlin: How would you like next week’s community call focusing on coordinating locally overlapping events? Yes that would be great!" 20,60935,2019-10-08T15:30:52.145Z,10637,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,60929,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,great! I hope to see you guys in the call in half an hour :) 21,60938,2019-10-08T15:37:02.048Z,10637,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,58526,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,call at this link: https://zoom.us/j/489971765 22,61050,2019-10-09T17:34:58.858Z,10637,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,58526,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,"@anon2616197748 @anon1753543892 told me yesterday you are going to have a location only for the 22nd. I wonder if we can share that event together someanon2696444391. We plan to do the hackathon on the 23rd and 24th and do an intro evening on the 22nd with all the projects, and then a get together. Can we maybe jump on a quick call this weekend or next week to see if we have the possibility to do the evening together? Would be cool to get the edgeryder community in one place there :slight_smile:" 23,61148,2019-10-10T16:33:19.216Z,10637,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,58526,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Since multible of you are together there in Berlin and think about starting on the same day, we wondered if maybe we should add a shared budget point of (maybe 300 euro?) and try to find someone who would be interested in organizing a socializing party for the participants afterwards." 24,61593,2019-10-17T18:15:30.099Z,10637,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,60929,anon3591841007,anon3554387720,"Sorry to come in a anon2488317424 late. I just filled in the typeform form, proposing a text + discussion event about philosophical backgrounds and design quidelines for inclusive social communication tools. I think it could serve as a transition between the Warm Data Lab and the hacking proper. For good interaction it would be best with about 10 participants, but it could be done more than once." 1,61169,2019-10-11T08:19:51.463Z,11108,0,14,13,13,0,0,69.8,61169,anon831914980,anon831914980,"Next Generation Internet is the initiative of the European Commission, to create a more human-centric internet where citizens retain control over their data. If you are interested in this space and want to meet funding opportunities, more content and connections to take advantage of, around the initiative you should join the #community: https://spaces.fundingbox.com/c/ngi-next-generation-internet And if you are a real believer and someone able to bring people to the community, to provide content and be really active in the community, you can apply to become an AMBASSADOR: https://community.ngi.eu/pages/ngi-ambassadors " 2,61286,2019-10-14T09:06:37.189Z,11108,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,61169,anon659222949,anon831914980,3 posts were split to a new topic: [Platform clarification discussion](/t/platform-clarification-discussion/11132) 5,61275,2019-10-14T08:36:42.851Z,11108,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,61169,anon3828707713,anon831914980, 6,61283,2019-10-14T09:02:05.690Z,11108,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,61169,anon3828707713,anon831914980, 1,61126,2019-10-10T13:49:30.868Z,11095,0,13,12,5,0,0,57.6,61126,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![communitycalls%20logo%2015th%20of%20oct|690x488](upload://9ft89h0LOR1C6faq6ehemtEkBRH.png) The Edgeryders festival is coming nearer and with it many amazing events! **We know that, but anon2696444391 can others learn about it?** _This Tuesday we are going to talk about anon2696444391 to reach out, invite and sign up to the Festival events!_ Use the opportunity to ask us or the other organisers questions and get the best ideas together and up to date! If you are interested in joining any of the[events](https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/) just come and we will explain to you in detail anon2696444391 you can buy your ticket by sharing your thoughts and story instead with money :) Tuesday the 15th of October 18:00 Brussels time here: https://zoom.us/j/489971765 See you soon!" 1,61042,2019-10-09T17:25:03.872Z,11081,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,61042,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,Peter is a well known expert in IoT - tech and policy. Currently he studies smart city policy especially as pertains to public spaces. 2,61043,2019-10-09T17:25:12.981Z,11081,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,61042,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"**John** 0:00 Welcome Peter Bihr to our community call today. Delighted to have you. I don't know anon2696444391 much everybody knows about Peter and his work. But I spent a lot of yesterday reading your writing, your website, looking at all the things you do. You're a prolific writer, you have the ThingsCon conference that you've been doing, you have The Waving Cat, you do consulting, you're a young parent, you started a company that makes pants, you have a travel magazine that is kind of crowd sourced blog thing. What a renaissance man. Where do you find time to do all these things? **Peter** 0:41 Well, the good thing is, I don't have to do them by myself. So that makes it a lot easier. The things I do most of us basically just what you mentioned, the way we can, that's my company, that's essentially the administration anon2488317424 back end to make everything work. That's that's the consulting firm. And that makes it a lot easier. Thanks. Con is the other big project that takes the other half of my time mostly. That's a nonprofit, but that's a bigger team. So that, you know, that's not just me, that makes it easier. And the rest are kind of like side projects that were other teams, or are really like on a very like small slave. So that makes it a lot easier. It makes it sound more than that. It really is like the way the Cat the consulting part around smart cities and emerging tech. That's the commercial part. And the things con is the nonprofit advocacy part of the whole thing that started as a conference, and then turned into a whole online community where essentially, we work with a lot of professionals and practitioners in IoT to make sure that it gets done a anon2488317424 bit better, and not just faster and easier to exit later. **John** 1:40 Your current research focuses on smart city governance, what specifically Are you looking at with that? **Peter** 1:47 So when we look at smart cities, like anything that's connecting the urban space, let's keep it like very open and broad for now. Anything that is internet connected or collect data sensors that enables administrations to run decision making algorithms, that kind of stuff, anything called Smart Cities, and - small footnote: I go through this whole spiel that that's all encompassing because the term Smart City is a very specific industry shape term is like it's essentially an IBM term more or less, that they kind of brought into the world. And like all the vendors that make smart cities acknowledges use that term. And it comes with some baggage. But I mean, whenever we connect public space, essentially, we, I think, need to look at anon2696444391 that works. Because if you look at my home, it used to be a private space; home in the in the global West used to be a private space. And now because we embed connected microphones, it's not so there's a phase change of some sort. And similarly, if you look at the public space, the moment we started tracking the movement of people through space, or we imply algorithms to make decisions about where to put the next fire station, or who gets to use which road or that kind of thing of who gets routed which which way that happens in public space. And unlike if I buy a naked gadget for myself, in public space, there is not opting out, if they want it or not. And so I think it's like this, the smart home was a face to face for privacy, the Smart City, I think is a face change for who gets to control the public space in a way and who gets to shape it. And I think that's like a profound change for governance. Because right now, most of what we see, and this does not happen with any malign intentions, as far as I can tell, it's just like a thing, where the companies that make technology could connect public space or network companies, they are data analytics companies, they are logistics companies, companies that know anon2696444391 to track movement of physical things to physical space, and companies who know anon2696444391 to extract meaning from data. Those are the companies, the Ciscos and Googles - the waterways of the world. They know anon2696444391 to network stuff, and anon2696444391 to extract meaning, from the data that's created. And so with them, when they transfer the knowledge from advertising technology into the public space, or from global supply chain optimization into public space, they import along with them a certain logic of thinking about the space to us. And that is not necessarily compatible with what we know works for a rich life, or civic life in the city. And so that's the slightly heavy way to think about this. But really, the question is, who gets to control? what's allowed in the city? Is it the vendors of technology? Or is it the citizens who live there, and what we see in practice is that the vendors are lobbying city administration like crazy to just implement stuff, and then test it. But once it's implemented, realistically, it's never going to be taken back out. Again, once it's in there, it's established. And so we're in a really pivotal point right now where I think we can help shape the discourse of what we actually want to see in public space. And what we don't want to see there by establishing first participatory practices that say, Okay, if we're going to put something in public space, we're going to have a process where it's not just something where a vendor sells a city something without public oversight, or with not very meaningful public oversight. And then everybody's just stuck with it for like, 25 years in a IT support situation. **John** 5:24 You make the comment, at one point in your writing, don't leave something this important to a bunch of tech Bros. You also made the point that technology is political. **Peter** 5:35 Yes. And so as I think these lines are both very closely interrelated. I'm a political science and communication science major by background. So while I've never worked much in that field, I do think a lot about anon2696444391 things are political. And it always sounds like an abstract kind of late at night red wine discussion. But really only it means who has the right to change the rules, if we don't? Who gets to decide what's allowed? What's up? With whom? What's good for whom? How do we measure what's good, right? And silence these questions. There's never going to be a perfect answer. But the quest of finding an answer and discussing this is really important. When I refer to the bro culture, I mostly mean, that's really, a lot of the products we see out of Silicon Valley. These things are made by young fairly well-off men for their peers. There's nothing inherently bad about this. But this is not a representation of the world. This is a very narrow section of anon2696444391 we go through the world. There's gender issues, there's control issues. There's racial components to this. But there's also, just like a wealth gap issue, always part of this, a lot of smart cities stuff, for example, that's the secret. This is what's called pay for place. So of course, it's it sounds like a fair argument to say, Hey, if you're going to use the service, you should pay for it, that's fine. But on the other hand, there's a good reason we provide some stuff for free, because we don't want stuff to be exclusively available. If you're rich enough to afford it. There's some stuff, and sometimes it's more than others, but where we just think this is really important that this is what means civilization, and it goes the same for us. So this is going to be available for everybody. To a certain degree that starts with stuff like clean air, to some degree, it starts with affordable public transport. It is available in some countries. I come from Germany, I live in Germany, public health care, that's not free, but it's very affordable is one of those, Where does it start and an end. That's the thing that every society has to decide for themselves. But that everything should just work really, really well, for young single men who are 25 and get 250 grand a year, it should also work for like a young Hispanic mom, who has to get by on 30 grand a year and may have three kids, some things should not work for just fairly rich white guys. **Christian** 7:55 I, I think one of the main reasons why things go wrong or tend to go wrong is because usually the sensor package and the action package get put into one thing, the person or the organization, who does the monitoring of traffic is also the same organization that then controls the traffic. And because that data never gets used. Otherwise, the interesting part of what make smart cities or internet of things for the city is if we have on one side, anon2488317424 machines or anon2488317424 computers that generate data, and that sanon2696444391 data to people and make it available publicly anonymized pro certain point or whatever. And when on the other side, we have services that use that data, and then provide services based on that. And as long as we keep this device intact, we have publicly available data sources. And then the option to use that data and then have paid services, free services, open source services, things made by enthusiasts and things made by new companies that do something, we can have all the good things there and we make even the bad things, but we can act on it, we will have the option to say okay, this company is doing bad things with data, we're not buying there anymore, or we as society decide to shut them down. But we still have the upside of being able to use the data. There's a friend of mine here in Berlin working on a project where they are basically adding very simple sensors to elevators with a long term goal of making all this sensor data on the elevators publicly available, and then have a disability-friendly map of buildings know that at the train station, the elevator is not working before you're there. So you can take the train to the next train station where there is a working elevator. And that works because there is this divide between our sensors delivering data, and the services we make use of. And if we do that, for traffic lights for traffic control for congestion, for smart air quality, noise levels, anon2696444391 many people are walking down the street right now? Is it full? Is it full of tourists or not all that and then allow people to make choices based on their data and you have apps or things working on that. That's a whole other thing. I don't know anon2696444391 many of you read Wired magazine back in the 90s. There was always on the last few pages, the column by Nicholas Negroponte. In one of those, he painted a dystopian and utopian picture of the city. And on every corner possible, there was a surveillance camera, and all the cameras collecting all the data and all the images from everywhere. And in one city, all the data went to one entity, surveilling everything. And in the other city, that was just open video data. Anyone could at any point, go to any camera and look for it. There was no central authority on that. Anyone could look up, yep, I'm going to look to this camera right now, and could save the stream just in case or not. Which of these cities will be nicer? They are both surveillance states that the one has some sort of crowd control on it, where people can look at this and can get to the data, even if a police is doing something wrong. And that's where the power dynamic comes into play. And I think this is something that is really important for public internet of things, that the data that is being collected should be available to the public. **Peter** 11:47 They're really important points. So thank you so much for sharing that. So first, you touched on, stopping to work with a company if they happen to abuse that data or if they're just not good enough, that's a really good point. Like currently, most Smart City contracts have these long built in contracts where it's IT infrastructure that you don't easily switch back and forth. And that's a question of procurement that's only solved at the stage of buying public infrastructure and defining terms of data portability, and that kind of stuff and exit strategies and making sure they’re not too proprietary, there's a really big lock there. And even if you have to use some providers stuff, which sometimes might happen, I think there's still practices to make sure you can move to a different vendor. So that's absolutely important. You touched on publicly available data, like open data, like strengthening the data comments, essentially, which I think is a tremendously powerful thing that we've only seen the tiniest first steps on. It feels like there's a lot happening. And there is but, I think if you look back in 10 years time, it will look like the tiny, tiny bit of the curve where it just goes up a anon2488317424 bit. And this anon2488317424 mountain that's like a big hockey stick curve. There is a downside to that too. Where going back to like what Negroponte wrote there, we all thought like that in the 90s. And up till maybe like fairly recently that publicly available data also means evenly distributed power dynamic. And only now do we find that if it's publicly available, it could also very easily be abused by much more capable organizations like the New York Times that have fantastic interactive piece, maybe maybe three months ago, maybe a anon2488317424 longer, where they tried to track individuals through like a cheap, I'm not sure if it was Microsoft or a Huawei Chinese tracking software like facial recognition software. And they just cooked it up with publicly available video feeds around Union Square over a week and tracked people that they could identify with a very high confidence, and they took their sample data. If I if I remember this correctly, I think they took the faces of the company websites around unit square, and then run it through the facial recognition software, and compare that to the video feeds. So there is an element where it's very easy to start being really invasive with this. And I'd have no solutions for this whatsoever. Maybe maybe just no video cameras whatsoever. Maybe that's maybe the radical kind of Luddite approach is like the only one that works. But I don't feel comfortable proposing that. It does have interesting friction there, right. TI think that maybe that's the best I have to offer. There's interesting trade offs there to make sure. But also, there's recently like a wave of new companies that actually also figured out better ways to do video recognition stuff in public space, but do it with a full respect of privacy where on device they filter out faces, or number of plates of cars, or where they track footfall in retail spaces, but only looking at the feet. And someanon2696444391, through gate recognition managed to get fairly robust demographic data for retail spaces by only ever looking at feet, which I would be kind of surprised that someone found a way to make that a horrible thing. Yeah, that seems like a very, very sensible approach, like if you can actually make that work. But there's a New York City based startup that collects traffic data like cyclists and cars in public space. And they automatically filter out all the faces and the number plates. And so you get traffic analysis. But like nothing ever leaves the device is all further up on device seems to me like a really powerful point of leverage, where you don't have to trust the company to have good Privacy Practices later on, if the stuff never gets collected to begin with. So that's not like criticism about the points. Like that's a that's a very clear Yes. And there's there's a really interesting part about the decentralization and the commons, kind of like leveling the playing field here that I don't think solves all the problems. But it certainly is a much better start than just having one company collect all that stuff and go crazy. **John** 15:49 It maps directly right back to technology being political, because in order for that kind of benign vision to even be possible, it isn’t enough to have a democratic society, you have to have more than just that. You have to have an aware society. In your writing, you talk about your anon2488317424 privacy dial - a anon2488317424 thing in your home that dials up anon2696444391 much privacy you want at a given moment. You have another example, there's a kind of a fob you could carry around in public that would let you have some kind of control over your environment, which I thought was a wonderful idea. **Peter** 16:31 Well, I'm always hopeful. There was a small piece of speculative fiction as part of an exhibit for the DNA Museum in London, where they explore the impact of tech on society. And we just played around with known interfaces trying to have them do stuff to give you control of your data. And these are complete purely visual mockups, the box to do anything but latest LEDs and the favelas, literally some some piece of metal and a kitchen and some some Sugru or something. But the idea was that just like we know anon2696444391 to turn on and off, up or down the volume on an old hi fi system, you could just say, hey, all my smartphone devices go through this thing. And when I want my home to be as assistive as possible in the mornings when I have to get ready for work, and maybe have kids running around or whatever, I want all the efficiency that they can offer me. And so as I say, you know, I'm going to wind down the privacy part, but I'm going to let it do all its smart and loose and support stuff that it could possibly do. Whereas, in the evenings, I might sit down with my partner and just want to want to have like a quiet conversation and might not need that level of assistance, I'm going to turn the privacy all the way up. And I won't need all the smart stuff, I'm just going to have my privacy now. And in a very intuitive interface. This model, of course, breaks down really fast when you like try to map what it actually means in context. So it's really like it's a speculative fiction piece. And a fairly simple one at that. You all know the feeling when you're invited to a friend's birthday or something. And in my my peer group, my circle of friends, there's like a bunch of people who really like Internet tech, but also are others who are real hardcore privacy activists. And so you'll always have like a bit of this tension, which is maybe too much of a word. But, clearly, there's there's different interests coming into the room where some people want to share with you on Instagram, and others don't want their photos to be taken at all. Preferably some check in on Foursquare others would rather have you know, like a Wi Fi blocker, but whatever the range might be. And the idea with this fob thing was that, what if we just have a thing on a key chain where we kind of set a default, where we define what, generally speaking, I want in public spaces such as, I don't mind my movement to be recorded, but I don't want my face to be seen in public and in private space at home I don’t want anything being recorded, when I go to like someone, I don't go through three to three degrees of separation, I might only be comfortable having either recorded or presence recorded, but not audio, whatever the things may be the match your personal preferences, as you could just have them set. And when you walk into a room, the room would be smart enough to recognize and also respect all that these wishes and fulfill them. Of course, like I said, that would mean first of all, that all the infrastructure is in place, which of course, it's not. That every vendor, every app maker every hacker like agrees to these rules and respects them, which of course is like a wish we would live in that society. And also, we all need to agree that that's actually even something desirable. And that needs to be respected. And of course, that's like the next thing. We need to be able to trust the whole chain to respect that decision, and to work. And of course, this is never going to happen, right? This is like, when we talk to these people who are not technologists at the VNA in London, it was really interesting, because people got the idea. The moment you mentioned, both of these, they're like, Oh, yeah, I can set my stuff here. And then I can just walk in and the place knows what's cool. Like, that makes sense to me. I want to dial up and privacy down. First, there was like a bit of a question around like what a smartphone even does but then, and they're like, Oh, yeah, that makes sense. I want that. Can I get that? And of course, the answer is no, absolutely not. The moment you have, the microphone, you kind of got a hope at Amazon. And all the makers of apps on the on the Amazon Echo are trustworthy enough to respect your choices. Maybe they are, I hope they are. **John** 20:30 So you have a smart city. And you set it up where maybe it doesn't anon2373157426 go all the way. But let's say part of the way toward this, and no doubt the people of Toronto, people in government of Toronto, I mean, I wasn't sitting in on the pitches, but I've been to plenty of pitches to government and high up people who don't really use this stuff or completely understand it and you dazzle them properly. They'll say, Oh, yeah, okay, we want this, that sounds really benign and cool. And we'll get that going and won't be exactly the way you describe a better vision, but it'll kind of work. And the people running Toronto, you know, are pretty good people, I think in their hearts and stuff. However, all you gotta do is get some people in who don't feel that way, who flip a few switches. And suddenly, you have a pretty dystopian situation, like I see in China. I saw 911, here in America in 2001 change our society very profoundly. Everybody was all freaked out. And in the end, during all that panic, all kinds of horrible laws got passed, at least horrible in my opinion, to essentially surveil us all in order to make us feel more safe. And so then you get Obama, a guy who has a strong belief in certain amount of civil liberty and personal control, who understands the technology and did have to engage with the national security state. And I can only imagine what that must have felt like, I'm not going to second guess the man's political instincts. But you know, he dialed it back a anon2488317424 bit, but that structure was largely already in place. Okay, now we have Donald Trump, he and his people are completely comfortable with mass ignorance and a high level of surveillance. And he has millions of supporters who are perfectly fine with that. I'm reiterating the point that whether you like it or not, technology really is political. **Peter** 22:47 When it really touches the most personal parts of a man just like this, with a strong power dynamic, which, of course is government to citizen relations. There's always a point that I'm making - it mostly doesn't play the day to day the way it should - that the citizens rule through the government, but rather there is a slight disconnect often where governments can come into power. And they might totally use all the established infrastructure and the data you collect for not the originally intended purposes. Often for nefarious purposes. Like I said, I'm German, I studied German history, there's like two states in like the last less than 100 years, that essentially run to a large degree on large scale data collection, spying on citizens and absolute abuse of power at the expense of a lot of large minorities, mostly, and often leading to horrible, horrible, horrible results, first the Nazi regime, of course. And then also, isn't Germany also like a big surveillance states compared to today's level of surveillance? Of course, this looks like peanuts, but it ran very efficiently, right. And so these are things where oftentimes we see infrastructure implemented with good intentions. But every technology that can be used for bad will be used for bad at some point. So when you talk to security and privacy activists, of course, they will say, the only really powerful failsafe way of data protection and privacy protection is by not collecting any data at all - is data avoidance. Once you install CCTV cameras in public space, it's a question of time. First they are going to use it to remove some trash then to highlight some bad parking along the way, of course, always like to find like terrorists, if you can, often they don't turn up anything. And so there's a question of time, because at some point, they need to justify all these costs for very low level returns. And so you're going to widen the mandate for the surveillance. **Inge** 24:40 I want to go a anon2488317424 bit back. There were a few things mentioned about this before. And I have to say the reason why this is so important to me is because I work with journalists who are covering these stories, mainly about the problem with smart cities, for example, in China, where a minority is being currently genocide. And the problems with smart cities. I've posted this on the on the forum before as well, a newsletter actually by a by a colleague of mine about his ideal Smart City was always negative because he focused so much on authoritarian regimes using it in a bad way. And he got all these Google alerts about anon2696444391 great Smart Cities are. I think this competition is great to have and needed to have for for us in the West and in the states and hopefully able to push a more ethical and sensible way of using tech. But what can be done about regime said, like you were mentioning right now, Germany itself 100 years ago, and then 50 years ago, use the surveillance state and negative way to suppress people? How should we approach this? And what can be done? I mean, there are companies that are willingly selling their surveillance tech to make smart cities in China. Is there something - what is our role in making sure that can't happen? In your opinion, what should be done? **Christian** 26:06 I am at the same time, incredibly optimistic and pessimistic. Let's start with the pessimistic part. The cat is out of the bag, the genie is out of a bottle, we will not be able to go back. But technology is VR. But technology is getting better and better and scarier and scarier, mass surveillance, will be effect, we will not be able to get rid of it with technology, because whenever we built the technology that enhances privacy, someone will build a technology that negates that enhancement, and then as more researchers are coming up with more and more ways to identify people, anon2696444391 they look different biometric things like skin, fanon2945747231rprints, mouth prints, whatever it's getting more and more and more and more. And we probably haven't even scratched the surface yet on anon2696444391 to identify humans with technology. And that's getting more and more, we will have data collection, it's getting easier and easier. If someone wants to spy on us at large scale, they will be able to do so. The only thing that has a chance in hell of stopping that is the social contract. That's the only chance we have. And that's where I'm going to be optimistic. I don't know when we will achieve that. But ideally, I hope and believe that at some point, we will come to terms as humanity as a whole in anon2696444391 we integrate living with this technology. I don't have any idea of anon2696444391 that is going to look. But we have to realize that the concept of privacy we are living in right now, as in, we have separate bedrooms, we will not have sex in front of our children. This is new compared to the whole story of humanity. And not saying this is bad. This is good. But we're having this right now. But a lot of the concepts of what is private and what is not is a social construct that we have arrived at sometimes recently. Scandinavia, for example, especially Sweden, has a lot different expectations on anon2696444391 you treat your salary. In Germany talking about your salary is kind of a taboo among colleagues, you don't tell your colleagues what you're making or, allowed to buy contracts - you're not even allowed. In Sweden, for contrast, you can look up anyone's salary on a public internet database. If you know the name of a person in Sweden, you can look up what they make per year. That's a completely different concept. And both have sort of advantages and disadvantages. I’m leaning towards the Sweden model myself, but but on the other hand, I'm German I grew up here. And this you don't - the don't talk about money thing is kind of ingrained in me and we will have to come come to terms with effect. But anyone can find out everything about us online, eventually. And that will have a huge impact on anon2696444391 we will live and anon2696444391 we will treat each other. And in the best possible of roles. This will mean that we will be able to accept each other more that we will be able to forgive things, though not necessarily forget. But actually forgive. Right now we have this ‘you rights to be forgotten’ directive, where if Google know something about your past, which you're embarrassed about, you can tell Google to not sanon2696444391 it in the search result, you have an actual legal rights of that. The next evolutionary step would be that, yes, I have something horrible in my past, but I have overcome it. And even though you know it, you will not hold it against me, because now I'm a different person than 5-10 years ago. I have no idea anon2696444391 we will get there. That is basically the only chance we have as a species. To overcome this, we will have to adapt to living with very invasive technology. And we will have to adapt in a way hopefully, that will make us better, as opposed to just controlling each other and use it as a means of oppression, then we have to protect privacy by social norms. **Peter** 30:25 There's a bunch of things like wrapped up there, right? Because, Yes, I think part of it is social norms. Now, we need to have the social norms, and then some hard guaranteed rights, I don't know, if if the UN Human Rights have been set as the baseline or something or something new that comes out of them or something else entirely. But there is a hard thing that you can go to court to, hopefully, if your country supports the rule of law. And then there's the social norm kind of that's like on the smaller change level, not the faster change, before it gets put into law. So there's one thing that I think you mentioned, also, your colleague or friend worked a lot with the horrible implementations of smart cities, and in authoritarian regimes, but now he gets all these Google alerts for the great versions. And I think what one question that I personally find really helpful to just ask when you see something like this is working well or not? Well, this is great. Great for whom? And by extension, for whom is it maybe not great? Is it only great for the 25 year old white dudes? Or is it great for the week? Or is it in China as well? And that's where I think you often get two interesting branches off the discussion. And so anon2696444391 can we make this stuff better, of course. I have opinions of what I'd like to see down there. I'd like to see a stronger focus on privacy and other stuff. But I think more importantly, then, what I think should happen is that we have a process in place. And that's where the policy part comes in. A process in place that is participatory, and actually democratic. That makes sure that I'm not the person deciding this because I'm one person and I'm in a historically very dominant, very privileged demographic group, I should not be deciding these things. So I think that's where that participation part is a really important one. We're in smart cities, I don't think we see it as much as say on the local governance. **Inge** 32:18 I think the question that needs to be answered in general is, can we make it more inclusive? There’s this Wired video about the problems with AI and facial recognition and anon2696444391 it's super biased and anon2696444391 this is a problem for minorities and gender, gender minorities and ethnic minorities because that they are so much more likely to be miss-recognized, and so they have much more chances of, for example, being questioned by the police or seen as a perpetrator even though they're not. In this video, I think towards the end, it says, the only way to change is if we change the demographics of the AI study group, because it's white males. I don't know the percentage, but it was like 10% is like female and so. So that brings us to a second, I think, question when it comes to ethics and Internet of Things is anon2696444391 do we increase this inclusivity? And anon2696444391 can we make sure that we include all kinds of different groups? **John** 33:35 This European Commission project, Next Generation Internet, Internet of Humans is related to the document you participated in, the Vision for a Shared Digital Europe that I don't think it has a formal relationship with this NGO project. Or maybe it does, I don't really know. But it's very similar in what it's going for in describing anon2696444391 society ought to work or it could work. And it has these pillars: cultivate the commons, decentralize infrastructure, enable self determination, and empower public institutions. And then it also call for replacing what it calls “the lens of markets” with these four pillars. But that, to me suggests that capitalism itself as it is currently practice would actually have to change in order for such a thing to come about. Do you agree? **Peter** 34:31 I cannot take a lot of credit for it. I love the project. It doesn't have any formal relationships, I think, to anyone but the three lead authors and a few people who, like me gave some input, because it's literally at this point, just a large document online, by activists from you know, the Netherlands and from Poland and a few really esteemed senior colleagues from working with them for a long time who come from an Open Data background and activist governance background. And you're right, that's a big challenge that they're proposing. They're not just that Europe shifts away from seeing everything digital, just as a market, which currently, it does, where all the development stuff is framed as under the banner of the digital single market. And in the European Union, it was like this tiny term in some obscure document that at some point, just slowly started spreading until it became like the lead framing for the policy, the lens that everything to do with the internet is looked at and funded as is all market market market. And they say, hey, that's not bad. But it's also really myopic. It should only be a narrow part of what happens online, the internet is much more than just a marketplace. It's also the commons. It's everyday conversations. It's the tool that empowers this and empowers all the communities essentially, they say, anon2696444391 about the just start advocating for reframing of the internet, within the structure of the European Union, not primarily a market, but primarily a commons, decentralized infrastructure, and powered citizens, and empowered public institutions, the market is still a thing there. But it's a much, much reduced thing. It's not the thing that everything works for, it's the market would work for these other four pillars. And that's a very powerful framing, that I really, really hope, just like this single market, that as a term started spreading from this obscure document across the whole of the European Commission's language, that this may just do a similar thing where it, starts spreading from document to document and at some point, it's what shapes the thinking. And hence, also all the funding the European Union puts to work, which of course is a lot. That's anon2696444391 the European Union makes change happens through some laws and through some funding, right. That's the main mechanisms of influencing change. **John** 36:56 You mentioned that you see opportunities here for European companies. And I think that is part of what the commission is looking for with this project, which is why they call it NGI Forward. Because we're all pretty good at describing the problems. And we're pretty good at describing what we want. And the trouble is, as futurist Paul Saffo once said, Never mistake a clear vision for a short path. But I think the opportunity here is to build products that are embedded with these values in what I guess is the hope that people will prefer them. **Peter** 37:36 if you look five years ago, there are many reasons why Silicon Valley technology is credibly dominant and solid. So for a long time, it's just been far superior to many other places, or better marketed, whatever the success factors were, but also in the current global way. W on the global market, think about data and anon2696444391 we extract meaning and value from data. They're at a clear advantage because they're much more free to do with their data as they please, as opposed to European companies that have traditionally been through a different kind of data protection laws. And they're maybe not more free and using this data. Then Chinese companies have easier access to the Western world. That's five years ago, right. So fast forward to 2019, we see I think, a dramatically changed global landscape. Because first of all, Chinese companies have gotten so much better at working across the global West and global south, they're much more international and global in their scope, and ambition. So that's one part. Silicon Valley companies, for the first time face significant pushback across all of the world for various different reasons in China because of geopolitics in Europe, because of geopolitics, and privacy violations and data breaches in the States, because they're kind of providing the tools for an election meddling, and all that stuff. So there's a complex mishmash of weirdness going on. But I think it's also very clear that since the GDPR came into effect that comes with significant financial, global fines for certain uses and abuses of data, and all of a sudden, you, you see a much more level playing field for companies that are from Europe, and stick to the national European data protection regulation. And they are not at a disadvantage, because they can't use the data as efficiently. But rather, they just happen to be compliant with one of the most powerful legal blocks in the world, whereas the others may get fined if they follow their own procedures. I have strong opinions on it. And yes data protection, but I also am painfully aware that part of this is like a horrible geopolitical power play in a way that feels really unhealthy To me, it's like, oh, we're also going to leverage local industry at the expense of the others. But to me also, I think, as long as it's based on certain rights I believe in and values I believe in, I'm kind of okay with it, if that makes sense. Maybe I shouldn't be. But I really am. I really like data protection to be stronger until we figure out what we want to get out of this. And for the first time, in probably 20 years, European companies are on equal footing in that space, the global players, and one example that I really, really like, it's a fairly small startup out of friends. They're called snip stuff dot AI. And they're like a voice assistant, and voice assistance are, you know, like, the Google Home or I'm an Echo, but their version is fully open source. And it comes with a pre-trained data set. It doesn't share anything back to the company. And for them, it was like a security privacy decision. But by the time the GDPR got implemented, when all the other companies started scrambling, and my phone stopped ringing, because then we were just trying to figure out, anon2696444391 can we make our data-hungry services compliant with that, which, frankly, I didn't have an answer, I could say, you probably can, but for them it's, it's by design, and it's by designed data for that particular law. They were having a big party, because all of a sudden, they get validation, they get a political framework, a policy framework that said, hey, what you're doing is exactly what we want. So you will not have to fear anything, you're good to go. And it gives them a boost. And they were one of these companies that already were trying to do the right thing by their users. And all of a sudden, they got a leg up from the European government in a way that I find really interesting, because of course, all these companies not like an unusual move for every country has policies in place to boost their economies and to boost certain technologies of others and certain markets or others. It's just for the first time that I've seen the European Commission, actually, up in the Parliament get serious and kind of intentional about that, and not just defensive in a way that I found really interesting. I just want to say, yes, I think there is a powerful point of leverage to boost certain values and certain rights on the global stage and incentivize companies to build products based on these values. **John** 42:03 One of your big projects, and your Mozilla Fellowship was about your Trust Level tech certification process. For those who don't know, you can go to trusttech.org, where you can apply to get certified answering a long string of questions. And even if you don't want to get certified, the questionnaire is so all encompassing, that it's a good map of the landscape. But I found it useful simply to read it. My question now is along the lines of what we were just talking about: have you seen any interest in the Commission or the larger pan-European government in this kind of a certification process, which would be different than Oh, you broke the law? And now we're going to find you, you know, I mean, it would be a kind of a positive step. Are they interested in that? **Peter** 42:55 Yes, we designed this question specifically to look at all the aspects of product development which is really what we've been building for a long time, slower than I hoped we would. But we've been building for a long time, an actual design guideline. So by the end, you’re just like automatically there. You don't have to, answer these questions, in hindsight, but these are all questions that aim at anon2696444391 you handle data, anon2696444391 you handle security, anon2696444391 you handle these kind of things in a pretty holistic manner. These are all questions you have to answer one way or another during design process anyway, only some companies I think, don't make it explicit. They just build something. And they've made a decision, but maybe they weren't even aware they're making this decision. So yes, it is like this, just for legal reasons. It's not a certification, because I learned this along the way, certification actually, in the German context at least, is a check if you're compliant with the law. And we , like you indicated, did not want to just say, Are you compliant with the law? We want to say, Are you building products and really respect users privacy and users rights? And do you empower users and give them all the rights you can, or strip them of the rights because you legally can. We wanted to say we didn't want to have the baseline certification of “this is not a horrible product”, we wanted to find and identify and give some external validation and and reach to those products that go above and beyond in respecting user privacy and user rights. Have we seen much interest in this? More from the policy side and product side, because it's hard to go back and have Twitter or go to a product that you launched, while you're working on the next level of the next product release cycle, it's hard to go back and then try to map that on your existing products. I hope you'll see interest in the next year, when more companies come out that have been developed based on this, there has been huge interest in the Smart City space to see what of this thinking can be applied to Smart City space, and to other decision making in the public space. I haven't seen that much feedback from the European Commission. To be honest, I've been involved in a lot of products where I'm on all these panels in Brussels. I’m in the right conversations now. Nobody has invited us to see if we can apply this directly in a larger scale on the European level. And that'd be really interesting conversation to have. I'm not sure if that's possible. But I'm sure that our research surfaces enough potential issues and enough possible solutions to make sure that a lot of stuff would get a lot better, certainly a lot more respectful of your rights as a citizen and as a user. **John** 45:35 Christian is actively building a product that, as far as I know, very likely would qualify for that certification, which he's building from scratch, or sort of from scratch. Rather than “we have to basically bug fix our product to comply with something” it starts from the premise that, as Christian put it on the Edgeryders site, social media is broken. Let's fix it, though, the only way to do that is to make things where the fix is in the core of it; you can't just put a nice suit of clothes on it. A lot of why this stuff comes up is related to social media. Things started to change extremely rapidly when you get smartphones widely adopted. This field of social media has overwhelmed so many things. The point I want to make about that is I see it a anon2488317424 bit related to the climate problem in the sense that there are tangible short term benefits, and the long term problems are not so tangible - until they sanon2696444391 up. **Christian** 46:47 the whole GDPR thing that is a perfect example of the social contract at work. And when I said only social contract can rescue us from the horrible internet, GDPR is one of those things in there. Something that is often overlooked is infrastructure. And the internet is infrastructure, social media, up to a point is infrastructure. Infrastructure drives civilization in the most profound ways. I don't know if any of you read David Prince’s book, the Postman, you probably have all watched the movie with Kevin Costner. But basically, it's the story of civilization being restarted through the use of infrastructure, because suddenly there starts to be infrastructure, again, infrastructure for communication. And that bootstraps the whole civilization, again, that puts people in touch with each other, make them realize their very community. And that is what the internet is doing on a much larger scale. And that's the hopeful thing about it. Where we can use that. And if we protect it and see it as that sort of infrastructure, we can really drive forward. And if we build this infrastructure and maintain it with a view to protect minorities, to look at not the voices of those who are white and powerful, but everyone else, and build it in a way that respects everyone's voice, then we can build a truly internet of humans. **John** 48:36 We've got the policy issues, we know the problems, or at least some of them, what concretely are we really doing about it, and I'll bring the Chinese back into the picture here because you pointed out when you went to Shenzhen, the Silicon Valley of hardware, at one point you sanon2696444391 a fairly simple, but nice looking anon2488317424 smart lamp. Not really that outstanding, except the thing was made by a class of fifth graders. **Peter** 49:20 Shenzhen is fantastic, an impressive powerhouse in in the way they make technology, this is where essentially, all the factories and all the supply chains globally go from the silica mines in Africa, to the container shipping and packaging that ships this stuff's going on your end to Africa into Southeast Asia. And to a billion people in China. A giant chunk of that stuff is often produced in different versions for like differently priced markets. So hover boards are cheaper in the Philippines, which is why someone who imported the less secure cheaper version to the UK, they started catching fire. There's this aspect where they are the production line essentially for the whole world for electronics, but increasingly also developing and researching new technologies at ever greater speed. And it's a very intentional thing - a big government project. I think it's everything to do with IoT, with making connected stuff there. It has the term Internet Plus, where they just say “we want to be a world leader in AI in electronics and connected devices.” And then they add the resources to it. Not having a strong democratic mechanism behind it, of course, makes it easier to have decentralized efforts, all the drawbacks that brings with it all the horrible drawbacks. But that's why it's possible to say we want to be world leaders. So we're just going to commit x billion a year to train X, Y, or Z number of PhDs in AI research, they're going to be trained by some of the best professors to China and software which are really smart there and developed training, they're also, certainly several hundred thousand or anon2696444391ever many maybe study abroad at the most, prestigious universities, the nationally is really impressive. And like you said that small example when we went to this small maker space as a change of pace, essentially to see not just the factories and the r&d departments, but also see the community spaces. We saw the smart lamp looked like a perfectly fine smart lamp. I thought, that looks like something Phillips, might produce or you know, it's it's a fine consumer product. It's really uninspired and boring, has motion detection, it regulates up or down — until the nine year old sanon2696444391ed up who had made it. And I was like, Whoa, okay, that's kind of mind blowing. To me. It's also a generational thing that totally has gotten better and all of this, but still, it's impressive. They had found 3D models, they've modified them then from code, they modified it, they plugged it all together. Is this groundbreaking r&d? No, but when I was like that age, I'm not sure what I did. But it was certainly not designing smart lamps. **Inge** 52:22 At a teenagers security surveillance fair in London a month or so ago, a few of the major setups there were actually Chinese companies. So one of the major surveillance companies has all these cameras, and they're insanely good surveillance cameras that are all over China, but they're also sending internationally to smart cities. And some other innovative companies, tech companies from China that are from before would produce, tech that was like sort of a copy of Silicon Valley. But right now they're getting to the stage where they are making actually better things that are still cheaper. And one example is my phone, I have a Xiaomi, anon2373157426 popular right now with the four among us. This is like a $100 Phone. It's a smartphone, and it's insanely good. It's super high quality. And obviously, one of the questions is, again, with me focusing a lot with my work on anon2696444391 I started during regimes that use tech to suppress their populations. That's one of the things we focus on iwith one of the kinds of the people I work with. How do we make sure that the tech that we employ will make our lives better? On one hand I'd like the GDPR conversation we just had to happen in China, but we don't have that. So what can we use? **Peter** 54:06 I don't think I have any answers to this. And China has this like big, big public funding initiative called the ‘belt road initiative,’ where they essentially try to like recreate or take the model of the Silk Road into 21st century. It's a thing in Chinese politics to always have these cultural references and have a good name for this stuff. So this is the New Silk Road essentially, is the metaphor they work with. And what it means is a big chain of investments in in countries around the globe and public infrastructure and companies, lots of joint ventures, lots of research partnerships, a enormous scale, I think disproportionately in the global south like Africa, Southeast Asia, South America, but also in Europe and North America, Germany, there's, I think I recently saw a map for journalists had collected all these investments. Germany has, 10 or so and they're like, you know, here's a pilot project on Smart Lighting in a city. Here's a research partnership with the University, it all sounds pretty harmless and benign. And I really, really try to not be overly biased and be very careful in my language. But there is an aspect of this where you see big Chinese part of these investments, usually big Chinese tech companies like Huawei and the others and Tencent investing in local infrastructure and networks and communication networks. And it's tricky if you have a government for a legal regime where there is no hard firewall between these companies and the nondemocratic authoritarian regime. That's, highly, highly problematic if you rely on that with infrastructure, with sensors with data analytics. I'm a anon2488317424 hesitant because again, to me, there are weird colonialist underanon2863106368es there, but it does feel really wrong to just, say, look, can we really allow this or not? In Africa, for example, we see a lot of Chinese companies going in and actually building amazing things for, you know, urban, rural farmers and rural life, there's a bunch of what seems to be benign, good stuff happening there at the speed of the markets that European and American companies will just completely ignore because it's not high margin. On the other hand, we also see giants of infrastructure being put in place. Lagos is one of the Smart City projects for YY. But I imagine all the fast growing like African cities will be at some point, “are you okay with that trade off of like getting like quick Wi Fi everywhere in exchange for massive surveillance?” Or is this like a false choice that nobody should have to make? To me, it feels like, this shouldn't be the choice. But as long as I don't see a better alternative. I'm not sure what to say. It's easy for me to say the pure right thing is better than the compromise thing. But that's easy to say, if you have fast internet. **Christian** 56:59 I'm by no means an expert on China. But one thing that I want to give as fruitful for China is undoubtedly cracking down internally as if you're in China, and if you try to be in the opposition or being a dissident, or doing something that is not officially approved, you will live dangerously, and you will have a hard time and it is horrible. And we should work against that. The other thing though, is if for example, China invests in Africa, or generally in the global self, it must not be necessarily a nefarious motive. Because right now, China is gearing up to be a technology provider. Everything China exports and bets that they can export with the good margin, a good profit margin is electronics. Right now, Africa is a huge untapped market for that stuff. If they bring internet to Africa, if they bring technology development fear, they can't they create the market to sell more stuff. And that is probably a large reason why they are doing it. Instead of just “we want to export oppression and correct on software, and spy on people.” **Inge** 58:16 I agree with you. And I think what Peter said as well, you know, this, this post-colonial context. Look at us, actually, the people on this call are all nice by Western European and USA. It's a difficult subject matter to discuss. But yes, you are right, or I agree with you to that extent. But there definitely some ways and this is not only China. Especially Africa is very, very vulnerable to being used as a test case or two. As facial recognition, there's is actually just this major scandal that was in Kenya with this French company, de mi Gemma, if I didn't know if I pronounce this correctly, that works with the Kenya government initially, to better their voter database to make a FIFO metric voter database, but their data was sold in the back markets. And so there was this big scandal and then the Kenyan government said, like, Oh, you cannot operate here anymore. But one of the reasons they actually did go to Kenya was because they could test the Kenyan government allowing them to test their technology and gave them a free space to do it, because the African governments are really hungry to to improve. And so if they're given visibility to technologically try out new things and are more eager to do it, and a lot of other countries besides France or China would, because of their already disadvantaged position. But they, you know, there was this other big scandal, and I don't know where it was, I don't think it was Kenya, where he said area where they work with Chinese companies to make these smart cities and all the facial recognition data is being sent back to China for their databases. The point is that these people, the people that are participating in this, don't realize that. And again, we've come to the social contract, right? You don't realize that their own personal data is being given to a foreign government, which doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. But because there are already countries that are at a certain disadvantage, they're more eager and willing and open to accept certain things without further thought, or, understanding of what the consequences might be, especially for their population. So I do think this isn't this is an important thing. And again, it's not just China, it's it's like I said, this French company, as well, that the global sales in general is more more vulnerable to this than we are. **Peter** 1:00:50 I couldn't agree more. These are, really important points. Yes, there's more need and more hunger to, to not turn opportunities down, just because they have a risk attached to them. I think when we talk to government officials, especially on the city level, like in Europe and the US where they're not necessarily in the same situation of need, but they're seeing, they have such a perception that they need to be seen as innovation friendly, that they also don’t want to turn stuff down just because it would seem as anti-tech, anti-innovation. And they're facing a lot of trouble. And it's not like the smaller cities have like a big staff that has the capacity to analyze these impacts, really like a new big city does. And maybe San Francisco does. But Austin maybe already doesn't. And Austin is like a fairly big pro-Tech City. And so that's interesting, but also what what John raised at the beginning of the call, if this stuff gets shared back to a government that might possibly abuse it, that's already bad enough by many counts, where, for example, like Geneva Conventions do not just forbid torture, they're also forbid the threat of torture, because even if you don't torture, if you expect that you might be tortured, that already changes your behavior. Not that it's the same thing. But the same dynamic applies, I think, where if you know it could be abused and shared back it already has an impact on your life. The bizarre thing of all of this is, that maybe some of these data sets are much more diverse than those of the restaurant companies, which is partially why the New York City Police is trial trailing out the facial recognition software by a Chinese company, that's much better at recognizing darker skin faces. I don't have a strong point here, except that there's a lot of like weird things going on when we discuss these things, because it touches all parts of all our lives. **John** 1:02:55 I was reading in some of your material, where you were talking about neural networks, and anon2696444391 AI comes into play in all of this, because they're so profoundly different in the way that they go about gathering and out putting whatever their result is. And the point was made that neural network can output a result and you don't know anon2696444391 it got there. You may or may not know, even the people who made it don't always know anon2696444391 they got there. You sanon2696444391ed this anon2488317424 video of all these anon2488317424 robots in a warehouse, doing a much more efficient better job of putting stuff where it belongs, and anon2696444391 that's gonna be the way it goes. And for that kind of thing, it’s “well, I'm sorry, you don't have your job driving a forklift truck now, because robots are doing it.” And that's one kind of too bad. But what about when you get this kind of black box activity going on in a situation where you need to find out anon2696444391 you got there. That was why I was thinking of elections when I read that. How did we get here? I was thinking about the intersection of IoT and AI. Do you guys have any comments about that? How things move from IoT, which is reasonably understandable at least to me, with anon2488317424 sensors doing things feeding information to some central unit? It's not really that black of a box, if you want to look into it, but it is different when you're talking about people who make these things who don't even know anon2696444391 they got to the answer. **Peter** 1:04:30 right, and what went into like, shaping things’ decisions, right? There's these things start as a thing where you test them for some results, and they sanon2696444391 good results. And so, you know what, it's good enough. But you'd have a human in the loop. And at some point, the human in the loop seems to not add a lot of value. And so you cancel that line item in the budget. And all of a sudden, you don't have a level of recourse or someone to understand anon2696444391 these things happen. And we see this in a certain level of transparency in the way that insurance premiums are calculated. We see it to some degree in the way that policing algorithms work. Most of these stories are fairly horrible. I guess we only read about the ones that are fairly horrible. But if you can really interrogate the way that decisions are made, if you don't, we don't need to know all the the exact. The exact recipe is one metaphor, everyone's heard that I kind of like, we do need to know which ingredients go into the decision making. So we can at least get to some level of accountability. We don't need to necessarily understand exactly anon2696444391 it works. But we need to have tools built in and methods to interrogate if the results are correct, we need to if we are using AI to do any decision of importance, and we make it mandatory to use AI for that. **Christian** 1:05:54 If the person who gets potentially affected cannot opt out of the AI, then I need to be able to understand the process in all of its forgiveness. Because if I'm not able to understand that this is a nightmare scenario, and it's really important that AI only gets implemented in ways where people can look after this. Part of the reason why Germany is still so much on the paper votes is that is something that every person with a minimal amount of training can actually understand anon2696444391 the votes are being counted. If there is a machine, then you will suddenly need special knowledge and special training to understand what is happening and to be able to check on it. And that's the same thing with AI systems. If an AI system that makes a decision, I need to be able to understand anon2696444391 video a vi system came to the decision. So in order to make a meaningful appeal to it, if it's necessary, or to understand one of my behavior or my things or my surroundings, factor into that decision. If that doesn't happen, it’s basically the same as if the king just say kill that person. And I just have to deal with that. That's the same result from the citizens perspective. And that really means AI must be made in a way that is transparent. Also to uncover any hidden bias that is created in the AI when it's being built, where we end up with systems that don't see black people. **Peter** 1:07:33 I think that is a really good point. I think in the meantime, we just need to also make sure that there is a level of a method for records built in. This is something that's an aspirational goal, but I'm not sure it can ever be fully reached. But in the meantime, which might be forever, we just need to make sure that if something smells fishy or something goes wrong, there is a method to address that and get someone to look into it, preferably a human. I know Institute's annual report, they have all these examples of say, you know, health insurance in the States, changing the rules for like, who gets what level of care at home with like certain disabilities, and anon2696444391 the rules change. And all of a sudden someone gets lowered from getting like a full-time care person to a 20% care person, which might not be enough to get through your day, in a dignified way. And if there's nobody to understand anon2696444391 the process ends up there, then you in deep trouble because you have no level of recourse that says something that happens because this is always like a force not applied in a vacuum. But it's applied in like horrible, commercialized, cost saving contexts where all the safeguards will be stripped off to make to increase the profit margin. And that's where things go really wrong. **Christian** 1:09:02 It's even worse, the thing is VIP process costs time. And depending on who or where you are, in which circumstances you are, for example, you get a parking ticket, you could just pay it and when it's when it's over. Or you could say I don't want to pay, I handed it over to my lawyer. That implies that you have a lawyer and you're willing to take the risk. But if it's somebody for whom it is going to cost more with that lawyer, that implies a whole different level of wealth so they just pay for the parking ticket, because the risk of having that escalate into something bad, right? They won't do. Now imagine VA is handing off the parking ticket because it's an AI, it's a computer thing, it's suddenly at a much larger scale. That's the thing with everything where humans are involved, that puts a limit on anon2696444391 often this happens. Because that takes time. And if you want to scale it up, you need some way more humans for this. So it's not happening at that large scale. If it's a computer, you can have it 1000 times per second, and it doesn't cost you much more. So suddenly, VAI would give our parking tickets way more often. And then, to stay in this example, which is slowly getting more unlikely you would have poor people bombarded with target parking tickets, they cannot fight having VAIV, and just saying “in case you do not like for result Call this number” is not enough. **Peter** 1:10:34 Again, we need like a fair playing field for all artists. We need transparency and all that. I think it's not a coincidence that s one of the organizations that is most urgently researching transparent AI is DARPA and the US military research agency, because they say look, we do need algorithmic assistance in the way we handle our weapons systems. But we also really need to understand anon2696444391 exactly they come to their conclusions. For example, an AI- based visual recognition of incoming fighter planes is much faster and more reliable than human eyes at a certain distance. Because you can't even see, you can resolve what's going on, when they already recognize the movement patterns as drones or rockets or planes. But before you shoot at anything you need to really know that you are shooting at the right thing. And you can cue all the examples of where that went wrong with like human or no human in the loop. Of course, there's more than enough examples of that. But I was at a conference listening to a military person, at a fairly high ranking University, describing in great detail anon2696444391 they're super afraid of introducing too much AI into the process, because the risk of escalation and wrong decisions is so high if you just go to the point where you say a green light or red light for shoot inga gun sanon2696444391s that you really need to know is this reliable or not. And CN system always having a human and never have fully automated systems on that level, which gives me a shred of hope at least. **John** 1:12:08 Either you or somebody you were quoting was describing anon2696444391 in chess, the computer beats the human but when a computer and a human team up, they always beat the computer by itself. **Peter** 1:12:22 Yes, like the Center Chess model. That goes back to the Engelbart focus on augmentation over automation. I think that's where it gets really interesting: when you don't just replace humans by automating them away. But you give them superpowers, the way that all of technology does, it’s like going back to a knife where the knife helps us to cut things that we couldn't slice them with our hands, these tools enhance our capabilities. And that's I think, where things get really interesting and where I'd like to see things going where we augments the skills of of humans rather than automate them away. **John** 1:13:00 Thank you so much, Peter. It is an honor to have you with us. Christian, the same with you. And always a pleasure, Inge. **Peter** 1:13:10 Thank you so much for having me." 1,61039,2019-10-09T17:22:52.833Z,11080,0,6,5,7,0,0,51.2,61039,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,Michelle leads the Mozilla Foundation and has years of expertise in IoT and Smart technology policy. 2,61040,2019-10-09T17:23:02.759Z,11080,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,61039,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Michelle 0:00 Hi, my name is Michelle Thorne, and I work for the Mozilla Foundation. We're behind the browser Firefox. And for the last few years, we've been working on internet health. Peter 0:11 Thank you. Thanks so much for making the time. So we want to have this conversation as part of Edgeryders Internet of Humans project. And I just wanted to explore a anon2488317424 bit with you, in your words, anon2696444391 you tackle these value driven digital projects? What is it you actually work on? What are the challenges, but maybe that started with anon2696444391 did you get involved involved with this and what you're excited about these days? Michelle I got first gotten interested in all things internet about 15 years ago. And I was actually a very passionate early Wikipedia when the project was just getting started. And I remember telling everybody I knew like my university professors, ""there's this amazing website that lets you edit all these these different articles. And it's all the world's knowledge and all the world's languages."" And I just thought that was the most ambitious and coolest thing on the internet. And so that was kind of my window into free culture and open source. After going to the first week of in Frankfurt, Germany, I learned about Creative Commons, where I later worked. And after being at Creative Commons for a few years, started to work at the Mozilla Foundation. So the idea of, you know, open, participatory, global, ambitious digital projects has always been the big job for me. Peter 1:44 Okay, so participation, I think that's a really important part. How do we put users or people like you into that scenario first? And anon2696444391 do we empower them? And anon2696444391 does that play a role in your your more recent work? Michelle 2:05 I'm really interested in the internet, and the role it plays in society. I see it as a global public resource, and something really worthy of attention and care. I think one of the challenges we see today is that participation is more complicated than it was, let's say, in the earlier days of the internet, we've seen the rise of these big centralized platforms, which use their corporate policies to control anon2696444391 you participate. There is very anon2488317424 governance from the user side, and anon2696444391 those platforms might change or respond to people's needs. And we're also seeing the rise of behaviors online, hate speech and other kinds of violence aggravating actions that have kind of put people into retreat, or help to polarize people. So we have other social media platforms who really benefit from benefit from outrage and benefit from content that gets, quote, engagement. But it's actually creating a kind of polarized atmosphere online, and people are retreating and participating less, or just participating in their smaller groups and just talking about the average. So it's become a kind of, at least in my experience, and what I've heard anecdotally and seen in some studies, just the internet as a place of participation is a lot more money, the Muslim foundation on on the team that I'm on, we support all sorts of leaders in the internet health movement, who are tackling these different kinds of issues. So there's a whole group of people, Camille included, who are talking about misinformation, and anon2696444391 do you combat the rise of misinformation online? People talking about anon2696444391 do we talk about hate speech and radicalized speech online. And we also run a bunch of campaigns around these topics that I've been working on the last few years is the Internet of Things, and anon2696444391 to make it more responsible, more open, more private, and also include these ideas of participation and co-creation, because the Internet of Things has typically been a lot of black box appliances, without a lot of in a real agency to change them. Peter 4:17 You just touched on something that I personally find really interesting, because as you know, I also work a lot around IoT. And Internet of Things is one of these awkward fields that doesn't have really clear bounds. But you touched on one of the inherent issues there, like you met just mentioned, openness and privacy, and as a term, anon2696444391 do you resolve that? Or anon2696444391 do you think about this tension? Michelle 4:40 The IoT projects, I think, get it right or on the right path are ones that are open in their designs and their code and in their explanation of their business model and around like, anon2696444391 anon2696444391 the thing works, and also anon2696444391 did this thing comes to be in terms of supply chain, and in terms of the materials and things that go into it, as well as the third parties that work with it. So there's a whole, for me, openness is starting to become a much broader, you know, includes many things are, you know, transparency and anon2696444391 that device is made. What that device interacts with, in addition to the licensing of a name, it's like codes. And I think that those practices help to build trust. Because when you can see that an audit that information you can better understand is this a service or product that I'm willing to trust. And I think part of what that openness is about is around disclosing what happens with your data, what partners that company is in contact with or, partnering with, what their IT security update policies are, these are all things that help you make an informed decision whether you will trust this device with your data, and therefore, consider it a privacy worth preserving. Peter 6:03 You talk about privacy and data protection and the right to your own privacy. I've recently read a few really interesting points that I have to admit I hadn't anon2373157426 realized that they had to put it so eloquently around individuals, the role of individuals versus collective rights. So we have a corporations that . We have lawmakers to kind of provide a framework for that. But a lot of the rhetoric, especially on Silicon Valley, and even a lot of the activist groups is the individual needs protect their own right? What do you think about that? Michelle 6:44 I think in general, we put too much pressure on the individual to have to protect themselves and all sorts of areas of our lives, technology, internet, it's just one of them. I do think there are responsibilities of governments and corporations. And I think we're seeing the rise of, thanks to digital tools, some sort of collective agency and collective bargaining. So pools of users able to put together their demands, their needs, their permissions, and through more collective bargaining, able to negotiate. And so I think that for me, that's a kind of a new area worthy of more exploration and others that some people may be sitting in this network are looking at things like digital cooperatives. And I think that that's going to be a really interesting place. Because Yeah, I think, only putting the burden on the individual to have to understand all these different policies, all the different permissions, all the different technical capabilities. And do this in like the seconds of free time they have between their otherwise strapped lives is unfair, and not a society I want to advocate for. Peter 7:50 I couldn't agree more. And also, it's like, as an individual, even if miraculously. And this should not be a crime in Canada, possible zero crime, but even if you will be able to read and fully understand and fully navigate all the privacy policies in the world, a lot of the magic of data exploitation still happens once the data is your individual data is collected with like data of like 150,000, or like 100 or 2 million other people. And none of the privacy policies even tagged with that level at all. That's like the Wild West. Completely. Interesting. So you started from the free culture was your gateway drug and open source that led you to Creative Commons, where you helped open up licenses and copyright, to give creators more power, rather than the copyright regime? That led you to do the foundation? And where you've been digging into into internet health? And user empowerment? What are some of the tools in the toolkit? What were some of the tools you've been using? I know, there's a PhD program. That's just kicking off. There was a thing called the almighty studio, which was like an internal program. Can you just give a brief overview of like, your personal journey there? Michelle 9:14 I started the Mozilla Foundation, when Mark Simon, the executive director, had also just recently joined. And he had the ambition to take the Mozilla Foundation, which was pretty strongly just focused on Firefox, the browser, and maybe a anon2488317424 bit the web as a platform, and said, like, we need to be fueling a movement for the help of the internet. And so his application blog post is called A Million Brazilians. And at the time, that was a anon2373157426 radical and ambitious proposal to the organization. And so I've been working with him for over a decade, and the things that I have done and have helped to make that vision a reality. Little bit, these projects started off with what's called the Mozilla Festival. And the idea was, let's bring together these different, primarily open players in the open space. So we had people from open hardware, open science, open education. And we had Wikipedia there, you know, we had a collection of project open video, there was a smattering of these open efforts around the world. And we thought let's bring them together. And here's a look at also learn from all these different movements that we're applying openness to other fields. So that's where you build your rainbow coalition, so to speak. Okay. And that helps give us specific projects and people that we could be investing in and supporting over the years. And what's interesting is even over a decade that's had for various permutations, but a lot of the key ideas still continue. So I still think I still use convenience as this really important way to bring together a coalition, a network of people who might otherwise not work together, to really create, like, a new community of practice out of these diverse groups. And by working on specific and achievable projects, you are able to actually give people like a collaborative substrate that lets something move forward. So I think that those some of those templates that still continue. And I have definitely learned over the years, but I think those are are anon2373157426 powerful tools, especially in the nonprofit space. Peter 11:26 So that's communities of practice. Individually walk us through the learning curve of the Open IT Studio and anon2696444391 that led to open dot and set the stage for the next chapters. Michelle 11:41 One theme that kind of emerged through that work of the years, which also include included web literacy, and being part of the kind of learn to code movement was this idea of before the first falling at the Physical Web. Depending on circle you're in, you would sometimes say different words to what we set out on IoT, because that started just to be the term that was getting more traction. But anyways, I partnered with a professor from the University of Dundee, Jon Rogers, who I had worked with for many years through the Mozilla festival, we just really got along and just said, like, hey, every time we talk, there's all sorts of ideas and things that we can be working on. So let's just Skype with each other once a week, and see where it goes. And so for a few months, you know, he came from a design research background, really interested in the physical aspects of the web and of interaction as an electrical engineer. I was coming from this digital rights, free culture, participatory open perspective. And so we would just mash together ideas. And then it emerged, we could actually make some sort of program that could be hosted with Mozilla and the University of DD, that tried to take those different values and approaches and apply to Internet of Things. Say we started the Open IT Studio in 2016, with the idea of, let's support a community of practice of designers, technologists, philosophers, historians, digital rights advocates, to talk about what can we do to make it a healthier space for humans. And I think that project was anon2373157426 successful, definitely a highlight of my career, there were a few things that came out of it that might be interesting for people to check out. One I can recommend is the Anatomy of AI, which is a collaboration between And they took an Amazon Alexa. And they said, let's do a truly exploded view. So in design, you have this thing called exploded me, which usually just sanon2696444391s you the physical parts that go into device. But we said with connected devices, the story is much bigger than just the small material parts that go into it. So created the most amazing map, it's four meters by four meters, which was exhibited at the V and A Museum in London and has toured around Europe and beyond. And it's sanon2696444391s you the lifecycle of an Amazon Alexa from the mining and the smelting and the production of the components to then when it's actually running all of the data centers and content moderation advertising to the end of life, recycling, and others and otherwise discarding of the device and what is the true cost of Amazon Alexa; what really goes into it. And I think that for me, that project, The Anatomy of AI, is such a great touchsanon2863106368e for when we think about IoT. Often we talk about IoT, we just see a smart light bulb, or we often just see an object, you know, some sort of traffic light or something. But it's really the new vast network of stuff before, during and after that device where things get really interesting. So I think that that for me was just such a great example of bringing that to life. Unknown Speaker 15:14 The victory really, really important point to highlight there, I think we're like to really think about the analyzer the hidden costs. Because Yeah, if you see this device, it's like, yeah, okay, here's a device it costs x. But of course, that's a fraction of of the story. Really. It's just the last three minutes of a long, long saga. I mean, I guess it's true for most products, but a connected product with chips built in. And also like a IM and cloud infrastructure, it's a very tied into these larger hidden infrastructures. Michelle 15:52 And I think it's not even just the last minutes, it's actually the beginning of a whole new day, a whole new 24 hours, because so for example, Amazon Alexa, it's sold incredibly cheaply. I mean, compact, like it's very inexpensive device. But some of the main things it's doing is it's becoming a much more direct portal for people to order things from Amazon. But probably more importantly, it's become a whole voice snippet, like gathering system, which is powering Amazon's Alexa, that is probably the true value of having your Alexa in everyone's home. For me it like that with working with Open IT Studio and with Jon, and with our collaborators or whichever one Peter, this kind of growing conversation amongst technologists, different professionals in the tech sector around anon2696444391 do we make the internet especially these newer emerging technologies within associated with Internet? How do we make them more understandable? How do we make decisions that lead to these products being more responsible, or the people making them be more responsible? So I think some of it is about transparency and understanding. So things like this map. And some of it are tools, like one project that we worked on together the TrustMark, the trust mark for IoT, which is something that you can then use as a tool for vetting whether your product needs a certain standard and hoping to be giving users some agency and figuring out like, is this something that I really want to have in my home or my life? Peter 17:25 So would you say, if anyone who would be the main audience for for these, these products you're mentioning, because you mentioned on the one hand, you really want to empower users and give them the tools to make better decisions. On the other hand, we discussed this tension, anon2696444391 individuals can only do so much when they are faced with giant global infrastructures and systems. Did you have like a specific audience in mind? And you're thinking: does it depend on a project? How do you think about these things? Michelle 18:00 I think the place where we have the most effect, maybe some better leverage, is working with other professionals and practitioners. Because those are, that's an audience. That's kind of a more notable in size and scale, or size, and just and profile. And those are people who are making daily decisions in their lives that go into those products. So those were our key audiences. So working with Jon: he's teaching next generation product designers. So we had a whole thing around education, from undergraduate to graduate. And now we have a PhD program funded by the U looking at responsible IoT, I think this idea of what are we doing in the higher education space to train people going into the field that will have these kinds of considerations, as well as people who are in the field who are making kind of daily decisions, and then also all sorts of kind of user advocates. So we work with Consumer Reports, we work with nonprofits, we work in the digital rights space, all these people were kind of advocating on behalf of users. And they love these kinds of examples and tools, because it helps them give point to something maybe a anon2488317424 more tangible or intuitive than just a policy briefing. Peter 19:19 Policy. I wonder if what you're describing sanon2696444391s that there's there might be a generation of product designers coming up that understand these issues much, much better. And now I wonder if the same is happening in the political science schools and the law schools? What is the status there? Michelle 19:45 It's a great question. I was recently reflecting with a friend of mine that when in college, I studied critical social thought. And we did a lot of thinking and writing, but very anon2488317424 making. And if I could recreate my degree I would have critical social and critical making as my double major. Because I think you're right, I think actually the, let's say the makers, I think we're seeing this in the computer science departments and the design departments, engineering departments of all kinds are getting a lot more ethics curriculum and support to think about the ethical components of their work. I think that's on the rise. It's on the rise, but I think some of the other humanities actually don't do enough making of their own. So I'm sure when you're studying law, you would very, very few project would actually encourage you to do anything like make a trust, like a prototype, just mark that actually tries to put some of your law practice into something more tangible. And I I'm a firm believer that we learn through making and even though I'm not a skilled maker, I think that this is a an amazing process to try to turn ideas into something tangible, something that's testable, something that lives in another mode. Peter 21:01 What are the kinds of reactions you get when you start talking to other people about these super complex technical issues because things kind of work in our nonprofit like, that's, that's something that I sometimes find a bit of a struggle when you're so steeped in that thinking, and then you are someone who you've learned from, but I can also learn from from the work you've been doing there. But they have not been sitting there thinking the same way, because they do their own thing. And then all of a sudden, you're like, Oh, well, anon2696444391 do I first of all wrap my head around all the stuff you've been doing to see anon2696444391 this applies? But also, anon2696444391 can I distill this? And not scare anyone away and have them put their head in the sand? Because there's such a big brain dump. And the issues are so overwhelmingly big, it's like a weird scale and fuzzy around the edges. Does that make sense? Michelle 22:00 We exhibited at the V and A during digital design weekend, and you get, like 25,000 people come through, and check out our work. And you have to talk to all sorts of people from all walks of life. And so yes, a lot of it's contextual, but who you're in front of. But I find in general, many people have a smartphone, most smartphones have some sort of voice assistant running on them. I think a smartphone is one of people's first IoT devices in this way. And so actually talking to people about their phone, anon2696444391 do they use their phone and the user voice assistant? What do they think about that? Do they know where that data is going? What do they think about those companies have it, it's all those funny stories around? Accent accents being misunderstood, like the Scottish person trying to talk to Siri, in these people really relate to those stories, and have their own experiences with them. And that becomes kind of a channel through which you can talk about some of these other internet health issues. Peter 23:02 That's right. That's especially true for, say, a general audience. But you mentioned that you mostly target in your practice, practitioners. Are they open for these kind of arguments? Or is this a thing that a shrug off as a Yeah, yeah, security, privacy. Michelle 23:25 I'm seeing increasingly people who don't want their work to be adding to the shadiness in the world. just released a really great study around tech workers and their attitudes, was focused on the UK, but they sanon2696444391ed that I think one in five tech workers, is ready to leave a job if the employers makes an error, like an unethical decision, which cost the company like 30,000 times. So I think this is anecdotally and then also in the sector, more people want to have ethical decisions in what they build. And so I'm actually finding more people, who you don't have to convince them that these are things to work on. It's more that was more anon2696444391 oftentimes, you'll find that people are people who work in the tech sector are coming up against the business of the company is the thing that is at odds, it may be not their product manager or their design team, everyone's on board. But you have you coming down to some bigger question around like, anon2696444391 is that company financed? And so I think some of the big innovations of the coming decade will actually be around reforming our economic models. Peter 24:38 So I think we had, like I said, as a really solid basis for you know, like, if like, have companies like a fantastic group, doing a lot of like research, you've like increased transparency, and started building tools and mechanisms to empower people. And I think we're like breaking, kind of like new ground, like in a fairly literal literal like knowledge, workI kind of sense. And that you're now involved in where you you co founded a PhD program. And PhD programs are, of course about like, contributing absolutely new research and knowledge and really expanding the field in a way that hadn't been before. Right. So can you talk a anon2488317424 bit about this? And we'll also hear more about this from john Rogers, two partners, but like, anon2696444391 do you get involved with this? How does this come together? And where do you see this going? Michelle 25:27 I think of anon2696444391 this project came to life. And thanks to the maintenance of the European Commission to prioritize these kinds of training networks, which seems to be a unique thing in the world that they say we need to get universities and in the industry together to think and to move forward to these new kinds of trainings. And especially they were interested in things like a nonprofit like Mozilla, who really focus on these more societal implications of technology. So I think that's a really amazing that they even have this kind of like structure. So it's going to be a three year PhD program that actually the there's five PhD students who are at this moment moving to Dundee, Scotland to start next week. And they come, they come from all over the world. And the idea is that they're going to be researching, through design practices, their philosophical practices through coding practices, and legal practices, ways to advance a healthier Internet of Things. So what that will look like in practice is like, very much going to be determined on what they bring to it. But we focused on different layers of where we see it playing out from the body, to the home to the neighborhood, in the city. And then we also did a cross cutting project or on the checkmark, and helps to try to bring those ideas together. So I'm anon2373157426 excited to see what it's like, I think, to have a PG program paired with a nonprofit is exciting, they're going to also come to facility Berlin, for a year and a half to be more embedded in our office here. And then they're being advised by an array of really amazing organizations who are at the forefront of this responsible space, moving things on, simply secure. I want to take this program, as much as I want to run it. Peter 27:25 I think it's really neat that you're able to get the kind of supervisor support from people who are doing this kind of tech advocacy, also. So that kind of opens up the space beyond like pure IoT into activism into academia, but also, one of the themes that that I've seen throughout this is thinking about Commons, versus just exploitation, about sustainability, in terms of short term gains. And I think recently, you've talked more openly and more and more today, about a greener web and more sustainability in terms of the digital services and the web infrastructure we use. Where was your thinking of this? Michelle 28:12 The stat that really set me back was learning that the internet contributes 2% of the world's global carbon emissions, which basically puts it on par with the airline industry. I think for a long time, we've lived in some sort of digital denial that the internet is physical, in that sense, in the sense that it requires environmental resources and adds to pollution. But as in the tech sector, we've never shied away from imagining different futures and innovating. So it's actually a place where I think the internet both is a heavy contributor to emissions, as well as it can be an amazing tool to reduce its own as well as used to mobilize and organize for climate action. Recently, I've been really interested in the idea of becoming carbon neutral Internet, and what it would take to reduce those emissions. The great news is that there are many wonderful humans of the internet who are interested in this in this problem as well. And there's already like an array of actions that are happening from moving data centers to renewables, to designing websites and web services that have a lower footprint, to extending the life of connected devices, there's a whole bunch of things people are doing that in aggregate can actually reduce emissions. And so for me, that's really exciting, not just thinking about it in the internet sector, but also just seeing the mobilization around a climate agenda. We see that really strongly here in Germany with Friday's for future, and the recent European elections, this I think, strong mandate from the public to do something about it. And I've really taken that kind of momentum to heart. Within Mozilla, we started a small group of people who are pushing for more climate activism within the organization, which you can expect to hear more from soon. And just being more involved and also learning. There's a lot to learn about, about the climate crisis. But I think it's something that now when I think about what does it mean to be responsible technologists, I think previously, I really saw it as being around openness and privacy, inclusion, and all these topics. But now I'm increasingly seeing it has to also include the climate and kind of moving up or probably down the stack really deeper into the base layers. I keep putting like penthouses on it, but actually basement that needed investigation. People that I've spoken to have felt this kind of dissonance between amazing internet future that, for example, that me and all these open movement people have been advocating for, and the hard reality of the climate crisis, but I think there's a way to actually address that dissonance head on and not be paralyzed in action, but actually to do something about it. That's, that's where I'm at at the moment. Peter 31:12 That's really interesting that you've hinted at this, but it's, I think, a really, really important reminder that oftentimes, if you want to put people first, it means that you need to work throughout all the conditions so that people just come first. So in this case you need data and design practices to put people in the center, you need to make sure that there's a planetary perspective in order to, for the people to have a chance to be front and center. So that's really interesting to see anon2696444391 there's this big red thread that connects them all. And the thing is, it's very illustrative of, of the tech industry in the tech scene over the last 10 years, from kind of utopian activists, as soon as we can, like, digitize and everything will be better, automatically to have, okay, there's actually there's complications once it hits a certain scale, and more people come in and all that stuff, and the dynamics change, and now we need to remedy some of the potential problems, too. Oh, now we really need to dig in and, and see if we are contributing to a problem because it's such a dominant force of power. Now. I think we could wrap up, is there anything I should have asked anything you'd like to add any anything, any shout outs you want to give? Michelle 32:36 I mean, just think about this project being in the context of the European Union. In much of my work over the years, I've really seen the European Union be this kind of beacon of hope, from be it from a regulatory perspective, be it from an agenda setting perspective be addressed from like a celebration of multiculturalism will do lingual ism. And now, also putting the climate high on the high on the priority list. Even as a non US citizen, I really believe in the project of the EU. And I think it's one of the most modern and exciting things that is happening on the planet, I think for the EU to really be invested in a thought leader around what the internet could be and helping to create this kind of alternative vision for it that are dominated by the prevailing centralized service capitalism models. I think, you know, that hasn't made me more public, public good perspective. I think there's something I really am hopeful for and to help lead. So that's exciting. And one of the reasons I was excited to participate in this project. Peter 33:45 Awesome. Well, thank you so much for making the time." 1,59960,2019-09-26T10:25:34.595Z,10885,0,9,8,13,0,0,96.8,59960,anon1818011425,anon1818011425,"Hello Everyone, I am Mehul Sharma, Owner & Creator of SynchroKnot Software for Cloud Computing Decentralization. I considered being a part of the NGI initiative when I saw that I could offer my software & solution to help enable the vision of NGI. This technology and software product is ready and available. It is an amalgamation of cloud computing, networking, IoT and Blockchain, among other technologies, which decentralizes and builds the next-generation Internet economy at both the micro and macro level in parallel, while enhancing the individual user and business freedom, privacy and competitiveness. SynchroKnot software transforms any server, workstation, desktop or embedded device into a decentralized cloud or data center [data decenter] in minutes. You can use any commodity X86_64 Desktop/Workstation/Server/Embedded device and connect them to eachother. There is no need to purchase virtualization software [VMware, OpenStack, Hyper-V etc], switches and routers or storage [SAN/NAS]. I encourage you to take a deeper look into anon2696444391 transformation can be fun and empowering at the same time. [More information](http://anon1818011425.ch) [Articles & How Tos](https://qiita.com/organizations/anon1818011425-org) ![SynchroKnot-Internet-of-Spatial-Defined-Systems-Iot|690x643](upload://xMsKpNphZUw7ZZLRogmyBsyNdXM.png) ![SynchroKnot-Sanon1537101702te-Tree-Protocol-Direct-Connect-Architecture|635x517](upload://vmxNoR9U81fDpsn1ArPwisjBXL8.png)" 2,60955,2019-10-08T17:29:54.140Z,10885,0,6,5,3,0,0,31.2,59960,anon3203746736,anon1818011425,The value proposition in the link lists numerous money saving benefits. What other benefits to using this besides saving money/better economics? 1,59692,2019-09-21T16:40:55.456Z,10834,0,12,11,3,0,0,62.4,59692,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Edward Snowden – with his new book out – is raising the volume of his voice. I wonder: what are the implications of what he is saying for the future Internet, if any? Consider the radicality of what he is saying. If everyone were to adopt his advice, the vast majority of today's Internet businesses would become unviable in their current form. Also, most business done online since 1993 is ethically bankrupt. It's anon2373157426 a yes/no proposition! Will his argument be waved off as unrealistic? Or are times a-changing, with the future Internet shaping up to reform some of the ways of the current one? Full thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/1175419013402374145 " 2,60954,2019-10-08T17:21:16.404Z,10834,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,59692,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"The first many years of my life online were spent in a world where everything was direct pay. It was all by consent and there was no spying at all. The trade-info-for-service via advertising that changed all that. Until that changes, it is realistic to think that any meaningful change away from ""predation"" will occur? I think the EC would love nothing more than to have a (European) human-centered internet service win in the marketplace. But realistically, is that possible? News sites are charging for their content again. But even via a paywall, who is to say there will be no spying of some kind? You would have to walk away from a revenue stream." 1,60852,2019-10-07T20:06:11.520Z,11052,0,8,7,50,0,0,251.6,60852,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"In this 24 minute conversation Zenna interview Pablo Velasco, faculty member in Digital Design and Information Studies at Aarhus university. They discuss decentralization, and anon2696444391 utopian thinking ties into it. What projects has Pablo seen that are truly innovative? And given the differences in the world's cultures, is it even possible to enjoy a fully human-centered internet - or AI, or a smart city - via technical solutions? https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/3/34ce327a223b8981db1e6166101c14e9079510bc.mp3" 2,60953,2019-10-08T17:04:45.422Z,11052,0,6,5,2,0,0,11.2,60852,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"A key section of this is when Zenna asks Pablo what really interesting, innovative, truly new projects has he seen in the blockchain world he has been studying so intensely and he said, ""not that many"" explaining that when you really drill down into them, the differences between these supposed radical new blockchain projects are not really that different from what already exists in some other form. So where are the really innovative projects? I think ultimately this is what the EC wants to get out of this set of discussions they are funding here...for some real innovators to come out of the woodwork or out from under rocks where the EC has not been looking, with ideas that will lead to European business that embody human-centered values, but win in the marketplace. It's a long shot but I think this is what they are really after.. However, I also think, based on conversations I have had on this platform and in other places with people who have posted here, some innovators are, or may be, reluctant to throw in with the super establishment EC unless they are convinced that where it leads really does benefit people and it won't be ""business as usual"" because that clearly has not worked. This is relevant to the interview with Prof. Velasco because, again, the really unique innovative ideas are not readily sanon2696444391ing themselves." 1,60497,2019-10-03T11:18:02.049Z,10986,1,16,15,5,0,0,63.2,60497,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Dear Edgeryder NGI Festival Event Organisers, Time is moving fast and we are looking forward to your events in November! To make them the best they could be we need a few more information and a post about your event to use to reach out to interesting participants and discussion members. Here a list of the next steps: 1. Please give your event a title and share that with us by filling it in [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/festival-program-overview/10731/8) in the programme overview or simply answering to that thread. 2. If you haven’t done so already, please write a post about your event with information such as [this example](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326) about the AI event in Brussels. We would like to have those posts up by Monday the 7th of October, latest by the 10th. We know all of you are amazing and busy people, but we need to be able to communicate the events as soon as possible to make the best impact for all of us! Once you have written you post we can push your post and include it in the minisite for the festival https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/ which you can also use to share with those interested to orient themselves better about the festival and to sign up to join :) 3. Each of the NGI related event posts needs to have a “Frequently asked Questions” footer added to them. You can find the template [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/frequently-ask-question-section-to-add-to-festival-event-posts/10982). Just copy it in edit mode, past it under your post and make sure to adjust the second paragraph which names the organisers with your and your collaborator's names. 4. Please post a short one-paragraph bio of yourself [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/festival-participant-bios/10905) if you are not already in that post 5. The[ next Community Call](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-festival-going-places/10984) on Tuessday the 8th of October 18:00 Brussels time is for you to discuss anon2696444391 to collaborate with events locally and anon2696444391 to organise and finance travels for those that are not yet there :) (https://zoom.us/j/489971765) 6. It would be great to also have more 1-1 calls to discuss your events in detail! Please send me some dates and times that would work for you personally :) 7. It would be great to get a short interview with each of you wonderful interesting people! We are planning anon2696444391 to organise and shedule those in the leading up to the festival in its own thread https://anon1577251828.eu/t/schedule-of-interviews-to-do-with-participants-and-content-contributors-ahead-of-the-festival/10971 If you have any question just ask! It is great to create something with amazing people such as you! Ping @anon2682865457, @anon3086952555, @anon1608948641, @anon2616197748, @anon3554387720, @anon1818011425, @anon3747875924, @anon3005461236, @anon294806887, @anon3828707713" 2,60609,2019-10-03T18:31:46.000Z,10986,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,60497,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,"Hello Maria! I cant open the FAQ post in edit mode.... Cant add the template.... /Erik" 3,60633,2019-10-04T08:18:55.148Z,10986,1,12,11,1,0,0,42.4,60609,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,Made it a wiki- try now? 4,60636,2019-10-04T08:50:22.000Z,10986,1,12,11,1,0,0,42.4,60633,anon3747875924,anon3828707713,thx much !!! 5,60648,2019-10-04T10:30:32.452Z,10986,2,11,10,1,0,0,17.2,60636,anon3747875924,anon3747875924,"Hi @anon3828707713 updated the wiki, is that ok? Will the info be transferred to the anon1577251828 event [site](https://festival.anon1577251828.eu) or should we do this individually? As more info comes in we will complete the wiki (with times, for instance)." 6,60649,2019-10-04T10:33:05.304Z,10986,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,60648,anon3828707713,anon3747875924,"How about we do both so as to ensure that no matter where people are coming from, they see the information? What do you think?" 7,60650,2019-10-04T10:39:52.946Z,10986,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,60648,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,@anon3747875924 can you link your post for the event? We just tagg it accordingly and it will be immediately pushed to the minisite :) 8,60654,2019-10-04T11:30:29.705Z,10986,1,11,10,2,0,0,32.2,60650,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,@anon1753543892 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anticipate-exploring-collective-intelligence-design/11021 9,60660,2019-10-04T11:49:44.297Z,10986,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,60654,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"@anon3747875924 Great! Will push it in the minisite this evening. :slight_smile: Also, is this something for you? > Nesta’s Centre for Collective Intelligence Design is offering a second round of grants and I know they are especially welcoming applications from arts/design. > > > > Up to **£30k** per grant available for ‘experiments that generate new knowledge on anon2696444391 to advance collective intelligence to solve social problems’. > > > > **Deadline 25th October.** > > > > > More info here and on anon2696444391 to apply: > > > > https://www.nesta.org.uk/project/collective-intelligence-grants/call-ideas/ > > > > > An example of an arts project that was successfully funded in last year’s round: > > > > https://www.nesta.org.uk/feature/collective-intelligence-grants/intelligence-collective/" 10,60664,2019-10-04T12:01:51.909Z,10986,1,11,10,1,0,0,42.2,60660,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892 Absolutely and thx much. If there is anyone from across anon1577251828 interested in co-developing a proposal pls ping me, would love to use that opportunity to get to know people from the network and co-create !" 11,60667,2019-10-04T12:24:10.229Z,10986,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,60664,anon3828707713,anon3747875924,edited your event description and everyone else's with FAQ section. 12,60705,2019-10-05T06:27:06.397Z,10986,2,10,9,1,0,0,32.0,60497,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,"I'm confused about the process of signing up to events. In The FAQ, it say to: register an account with anon1577251828 and present yourself to the community. While the website https://festival.anon1577251828.eu/ seems to be the way in. @anon3828707713 @anon1753543892 etc... What do think we should communicate here?" 13,60707,2019-10-05T07:52:36.384Z,10986,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,60705,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236, this is a very relevant point. We will come back to you as soon as possible and are happy to discuss it here. What is your opinion on the sing up process? What works best?" 14,60708,2019-10-05T08:01:42.085Z,10986,1,10,9,1,0,0,42.0,60705,anon3828707713,anon3005461236,"Process is: People who sign up via the website are assumed to be totally new to anything and everything anon1577251828, maybe never had contact with any of us or know at all anon2696444391 this works. And may not have clear ideas about what event they might want to go to. People who drop in to the individual session/event description on the platform (like yours) are assumed to be interested in participating in that event. In both cases they will need to create an account and introduce themselves as well as pick some tasks to help with in order to secure their tickets. The difference is the order in which they do it. But, if this seems confusing we can and ought to simplify it - which I think is being discussed here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/onboarding-form-proposals/11013?u=mariaeuler" 15,60779,2019-10-06T21:51:41.064Z,10986,0,9,8,1,1,0,36.8,60708,anon3005461236,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:14, topic:10986""] The difference is the order in which they do it. But, if this seems confusing we can and ought to simplify it - which I think is being discussed here: [/quote] In my opinion, its good for the festival if ""outside"" people can know exactly anon2696444391 to signup for the explicit events. As an organizers, we would need to know anon2696444391 many participants has signed for ""a"" particular event - for planning food etc. Its not clear to me today anon2696444391 I can follow up on this or even tell people where to signup. Or do I need to manage my own signup page/form? @anon1753543892" 1,60681,2019-10-04T13:37:32.103Z,11026,0,7,6,13,0,0,81.4,60681,anon3828707713,anon3828707713," We want our [workshop on AI and Inequalities](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/24) on 19/11 to be firmly anchored in reality and result in high quality proposals for for EU horizontal AI legislation principles: * scope of the rules (what ‘AI’ systems should be covered, only top consumer/citizen-facing applications, or other/underlying infrastructure) * type of obligations (only transparency/documentation requirements?, what should they contain?) * How to differentiate, depending on scale (i.e. me building system affecting 10 people vs FB unleashing a new content ranking algorithm on a quarter of world population) and risk (system to distinguish which cat video I will be sanon2696444391n vs. decisions on employment, insurance, housing, predictive policing). So we want to gather/build a number of case studies where specific technological choices have resulted in increasing or decreasing justice. Some examples include: * AlgorithmWatch produces yearly reports looking at automated decision-making in Europe (Jan 2019 report, ‘Automating Society - Taking Stock of Automated Decision-Making in the EU’). * UK Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation is also carrying out a review of positive and negative effects of automated decision-making, first interim results just out. * Interesting examples could be insurance branch, or the case of Austrian labour authority using it to decide whom of the unemployed to help in finding a new job (criterion: efficiency narrowly defined, i.e. those already have highest chance to find a new job in the first place…). Do you know of one to add to the list? please post it in a comment below" 1,59274,2019-09-14T11:41:40.372Z,10774,0,21,20,26,0,0,314.2,59274,anon2670920295,anon2670920295,"Hello Edgeryders! I hope you are all well and having creative and innovative weekends :) I am the co-founder of COACT Lab an open-source environmental tech incubator based in the green hills outside of Barcelona. We have developed an online presentation that gives you more details about the program which you can view [here.](https://tristan.pageflow.io/coact-lab#218774) COACT Lab is an incubator, where inventors, designers and technologists with environmental tech ideas can disconnect from their daily pressures to focus on creating scalable and usable solutions. This will be done over short term residences as well as 3-6 month rigorous incubator programs, where experts will come to the campus to inform and coach the participants in various fields as they build their tech. COACT Lab is set in the Valldaura Labs ([valldaura.net](http://valldaura.net/)), which is a fully equipped 'Fab Lab' located on the hills outside of Barcelona, twenty minutes from the city. While the lab has all the latest machinery and design software, there is also a farm producing food for the residents, a woodlab for carpentry for 'low tech' solutions, and it is in the middle of 130 hectares of forest. Surrounded by nature, living in a self-sufficient existence, we believe that this is the ideal setting to inspire our participants to break the boundaries of environmental tech solutions. It would be great to get the community's feedback on the project and get as many Edge Ryders involved as possible. We look forward to hear from you, William" 2,59309,2019-09-15T15:29:18.956Z,10774,1,19,18,1,0,0,43.8,59274,anon1753543892,anon2670920295,"Hello @anon2670920295, great to have you here! sounds very interesting! looking forward to seeing more of this collaboration :). A great way to get some direct feedback and reaction would also be during the Edgeryders Festival in November! We are already planning workshops on the topics of open source, community management, proposal writing for infotech solutions and sustainable technology. It sounds as if there could be a lot of interesting overlapping and maybe you could either feature or add your event to this roster? The deadline for preliminary proposals by filling out [this form](https://ernordic.typeform.com/to/T5psAI) is on the 20th, and Tuesday the 17th of September we will meet for a community call to talk some more details and discuss some ideas :). Would be great if you would join :)! https://zoom.us/j/788229402" 3,59333,2019-09-16T06:38:54.580Z,10774,1,17,16,1,0,0,58.4,59274,anon294806887,anon2670920295,"Hi @anon2670920295, this is super cool, thanks for posting! Are you joining via @anon2616197748 connection? :smiley: Anyway, I'm curious if some of the open tech solutions you guys are workign on (like carpentry based) go as far as looking at green building construction from the bottom up - including foundation, walls, energy grids and so on. Some of us in Brussels are looking for a large residential building to transform it into a carbon free one [(The Reef)](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/earthos/the-reef). Part is technical solutions, and another aspect of greening are lifestyle tweaks (growing your own food). Is your space open for visits? Perhaps it's possible to come see it and meet you? With @anon3197437925 we are planning a few trips!" 4,59335,2019-09-16T07:36:16.583Z,10774,1,16,15,1,0,0,43.2,59274,anon2616197748,anon2670920295,"Hey [anon2670920295](https://anon1577251828.eu/u/anon2670920295), nice to see you here! I think we might have a few mutual friends, and I'm in Barcelona this week - I leave on Sept 21st for Paris - do please let me know if you'd be around for a chat or if a visit would be possible. I'll DM with more details." 5,59339,2019-09-16T08:21:06.025Z,10774,1,17,16,1,0,0,43.4,59309,anon2670920295,anon1753543892,"Hello @anon1753543892. Thank you so much for your message. Really excited to see the collaboration move forward too. Really keen to join the Edgeryders festival in November and contribute where we can. Will definitely sign up and develop some kind event within the festival. Thank you for letting me know. What time is the call tomorrow? would love to join! Best wishes, William" 6,59344,2019-09-16T08:28:53.673Z,10774,0,17,16,2,0,0,88.4,59333,anon2670920295,anon294806887,"@anon294806887 Thank you for the feedback. I met with @anon3828707713 at the Tech Festival in Copenhagen and learned all about this incredible edgeryder community and signed up as quickly as I could! We have just welcomed our first resident inventor up to COACT Lab in the Valldaura campus. He will be developing a micro hydro turbine. As well as holding a solar water heating workshop. We definitely have plans to look at green building solutions and would be great to discuss this further. These are definitely the kind of solutions we would like to welcome people to Valldaura to develop. The reef project looks brilliant! Look forward to learn more about it. Interestingly, the Valldaura campus where COACT Lab is based has a IAAC masters programs looking at ecological building and they just built a tiny eco home on the campus. It would be great if you want to come visit. You and @anon3197437925 are welcome anytime!!" 7,59345,2019-09-16T08:29:19.262Z,10774,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,59335,anon2670920295,anon2616197748,@anon2616197748 would be great to meet up with you. I am here all week. Lets make a plan! 8,59354,2019-09-16T10:04:14.598Z,10774,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,59345,anon2616197748,anon2670920295,"Cool, thanks @anon2670920295! I'll DM to work out specifics for when it would make to visit. Thanks!" 9,59356,2019-09-16T10:14:49.155Z,10774,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,59339,anon1753543892,anon2670920295,"@anon2670920295, great! The call is 18:00 Brussels time tomorrow :)" 10,59368,2019-09-16T11:58:59.957Z,10774,1,14,13,1,0,0,27.8,59274,anon3379761435,anon2670920295,"Hello @anon2670920295, nice to meet you. My name is Alberto, one of the old hands here at Edgeryders. Your space looks beautiful and inspiring! I have a question, and my apologies if it sounds a bit thorny. I have the impression that a lot of the innovation really worth doing tends to *destroy* GDP, not increase it, and in general to be bad for capitalism (not to put too fine a point on it). Environmental innovation is not the only type of innovation where I see this, but it is where this effect seems strongest. I write this under the influence of the [Deep Adaptation paper](/t/10726), where Bendell essentially says that sustainability is over. We are now in the age of adaptation, and the three directions of work for adaptation are resilience, relinquishment and restoration. Relinquishment is particularly important: maybe the most impactful environmental innovation is going to come from *giving up* stuff (private cars, commercial aviation, most meat). *Not buying things* is infinitely scalable, but it generates economic benefit from public goods (like the natural environment) instead of market transactions. Public goods are famously difficult to monetize, which adds further efficiency because just letting people enjoy them is very cheap and (again) scalable, but, in my experience, they are not a direction that incubators, VCs etc. like to take. They like ""sustainable"", which is mostly business as usual. I am curious: anon2696444391 does this tension play out at COACT? How do you yourself see it?" 11,59372,2019-09-16T12:12:02.118Z,10774,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,59274,anon3822657227,anon2670920295,"Hi @anon2670920295 and welcome! I'm so intrigued by your work and the spirit of openness and accessibility to a large scale of people. It there any chance that you or another member have ever worked with the maritime sector? Ports and / or shipping? Our [EarthOS unit](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/say-hello-to-earthos-why-anon1577251828-is-partnering-with-europes-largest-public-private-partnership-for-climate-action/10148) is working with EIT Climate-KIC on different projects and one of that is the ""Deep Demonstration of net-zero emissions, resilient maritime hubs"". We are organising [a workshop in Valencia](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/join-us-in-the-greening-of-mediterranean-maritime-hubs/10789) in December: maybe some of you want to share some experience with us? :)" 12,59398,2019-09-16T19:24:31.126Z,10774,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,59368,anon2670920295,anon3379761435,@anon3379761435 this is a super interesting and important question! Please allow me a bit of time to digest and I'll come back to you with an answer of sorts. Always happy to have a chat too if you want to pick my brains. 13,59399,2019-09-16T19:27:52.150Z,10774,1,13,12,1,0,0,42.6,59372,anon2670920295,anon3822657227,"@anon3822657227 Thank you for your message and kind feedback. We have not worked in the maritime sector but given the large carbon footprint, I very much hope that we can see some open source solutions come through COACT Lab to tackle the port and shipping sectors. EarthOS unit looks great. We would love to join the workshop in Valencia and can make a strong case for open source solutions to generate conversations... perhaps? Look forward to learn more about your work." 14,59406,2019-09-16T21:28:02.318Z,10774,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,59274,anon3203746736,anon2670920295,Let me just join the chorus of impressed welcomers...what kinds of projects have come out of there so far? 15,59418,2019-09-17T07:02:28.718Z,10774,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,59356,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,Maria what is the url/instructions for joining the call today at 18h? 16,59421,2019-09-17T07:20:03.592Z,10774,0,12,11,5,0,0,42.4,59418,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,https://zoom.us/j/788229402 17,59492,2019-09-17T15:30:41.192Z,10774,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,59399,anon3822657227,anon2670920295,Great William! I'll write you in the next days with more informations :) 18,59597,2019-09-18T16:39:24.835Z,10774,1,12,11,1,0,0,42.4,59274,anon3747875924,anon2670920295,"Hi @anon2670920295 super interesting, we just submitted a workshop proposal for Nov 28 to anon1577251828 which involves bringing a few ppl from the network into a local sust architecture design process f (and driven by) a commons-oriented coop. If we get some budget for that - would u be interested in coming to Saarbruecken for a day?" 19,59598,2019-09-18T17:47:42.672Z,10774,1,10,9,1,0,0,42.0,59597,anon2670920295,anon3747875924,"@anon3747875924 thanks for your message. Your workshop sounds really interesting. Yes, would love to come to Saarbruecken for a day. Happy to chat further any time." 20,59748,2019-09-23T10:01:23.466Z,10774,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,59274,anon1753543892,anon2670920295,"@anon2670920295, when would suit you for a call focusing on your projects and anon2696444391 to include them in the Edgeryders Festival? Would this or next Tuesday suit you? It would be amazing if you could fill in this: https://ernordic.typeform.com/to/T5psAI Looking forward to hearing more about your projects!" 21,60632,2019-10-04T08:00:27.000Z,10774,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,59598,anon3747875924,anon2670920295,"Hi @anon2670920295, any chance we can chat today? Best, Soenke" 1,60474,2019-10-03T08:46:20.550Z,10982,0,10,9,9,0,0,62.0,60474,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"_the second paragraph needs to be individualised for each event!_ # Frequently asked questions ### How do I get an invitation/ticket to this workshop? This event is bringing together people who are currently directly involved in building, researching, regulating, monetising and or providing meaningful input into the wider debate around the technologies in question. We want to ensure that every participant leaves the venue having presented and discussed their work with others who can provide meaningful input or connect them with opportunities to further their professional and or personal development. If this appeals to you, then we would love to have you join us. Just [create an anon1577251828 account](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login) and [introduce yourself to the community here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you). ### How is this event being organised? This event, and the festival it is part of, is coordinated on the anon1577251828 platform (where you are now) and co-curated through a series of community video calls. We have allocated a collaboratively managed budget for the festival and operate on a solidarity basis. Participants who need some financial support to organise or be able to participate in the festival are eligible provided they contribute towards making it a meaningful and generative experience for all - in the run up to, during and/or after the event. If you would like to join us but are unsure as to anon2696444391 to contribute, don't worry. Create an [anon1577251828 account](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login), then [tell us a bit about yourself here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-us-about-you) and we will guide you along from there. ``` **Here the text needs to be individualised for your event!!!** ``` I > ( add @anon am coordinating this event, > with @anon ### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union's Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu
![Ngi logo](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png) ### Does getting involved mean I endorse the funders views or actions? No. What you are doing is contributing to an open consultation on the topic of anon2696444391 to build a next generation of internet infrastructure, technologies, business models etc that promotes the wellbeing of humans and the natural environment. The consultation methodology is designed in such a way as to allow for diversity of views, premises, disciplines, themes and contexts. We employ open notebook science principles and the results will be presented in the form of a research report accessible to everyone after the event. You can follow the process, review the methodology and open source tech we are using and engage directly with the research and coordination team here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/workspace ### What is the code of conduct? It is important to us that everyone in the room feels welcomed and safe; if you have any particular concerns or needs just send me a PM here on the platform or write to anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu . The Edgeryders online platform technology and activities are intended for people to cooperate within and across projects trying to build a better world. The word ""better"" has here a fairly broad range of meaning. These [Community Guidelines](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/netiquette/45) are here to help you understand what it means to be a member of Edgeryders. Don’t forget that your use of Edgeryders is subject to these Community Guidelines and our [Terms of Service](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/id/44). ### What happens with my data? You can read about our [Terms of Use and Privacy Policy here](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/terms-of-use-and-privacy-policy/44). Also: * [Regulation (EU) 2016/679 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 April 2016 on the protection of natural persons with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data, and repealing Directive 95/46/EC (General Data Protection Regulation) (Text with EEA relevance)](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.119.01.0001.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:119:TOC) * [Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data](http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0046) * [Handbook on European Data Protection directive](http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Handbook_data_protection_ENG.pdf) * [European Commission website - Protection of personal data](http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/)" 1,60527,2019-10-03T12:29:32.673Z,10989,0,11,10,7,0,0,67.2,60527,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Here a Summary of the Community Call of the 1st of October: We thank @anon2616197748, @anon3828707713, @anon294806887, @anon3197437925, @anon3203746736 and @anon2945747231 for joining. The goal of the call was to discuss the Deep Green research goal and Festival Events. We did so in a wider sense discussing Edgeryders goal to map the field of anon2696444391 to get engaged in helping with sustainable and green ideas and behaviour based on skills and abilities. The discussion also brought up the topic of Solarpunk and with the help of contacts made by @anon2616197748 we are now planning to reach out for a set of webchats/calls/interviews with solar punk (""Solarpunk Salon""). Stay tuned! This in combination with Edgryders experiences and previous discussions about deeper engagement also leads to [the plan of creating an ""Organiser Interview Circle""](/t/10971) It was also a great oportunity to learn more about @anon Thank you very much! We also discussed the influence of CO2 levels on intelegence and Nudist beaches. Here the collected chat: [quote] | | | |---|---| |18:16:37| From Maria : thankyou| |18:16:50| From Maria : are you recording?| |18:17:05| From Matt : I'm recording now. Hope it works :) | |18:17:15| From Matt : Where does the recording go afterwards?| |18:17:36| From anon3828707713 : the Emilies| |18:17:49| From anon3828707713 : Can you post their names on the platform?| |18:18:08| From anon3828707713 : In a comment on that post?| |18:18:10| From anon3828707713 : later| |18:19:24| From anon3828707713 : Climate Action Tech, unConference in London October 18| |18:19:25| From anon2945747231snip : chris, is this slack open to people to join?| |18:19:37| From Chris Adams : emily webber| |18:19:42| From Chris Adams : https://climateaction.tech/| |18:19:51| From Chris Adams : https://ti.to/omg/climate-london/| |18:20:19| From anon3828707713 : Talk to Luke Devlin or Gehan Mcleod| |18:23:11| From anon3828707713 : I’ve reached out to Ronan Harringanon2863106368 to see if he might be able to facilitate the session| |18:25:38| From anon3828707713 : Service path design| |18:27:11| From John : nobody is doing “enough” and feeling good about whereto are now is kind of unrealistic. So, maybe the idea is to not freak anyone out any more than they are, but to help lead others to what doing “more” would look like, given that everyone has a different situation when you get into the details.| |18:27:39| From John : not whereto but feeling good about where they are now| |18:28:19| From Maria : all the focused events lead to discussions that are being analysed for the wider exploration| |18:30:16| From anon3828707713 : He’s [the documentation from Matt’s session](/t/7527)| |18:32:11| From John : best security talk I ever saw. By far.| |18:36:19| From Maria : We should also quickly talk about time plans and deadlines concretely for the festival events here before the end :).| |18:37:40| From anon3828707713 : look at https://twitter.com/cdlariviere ’s feed, super interesting| |18:37:41| From Maria : this real stories anon3828707713 is refereeing to instead of personas and such tools| |18:39:53| From Chris Adams : “The Solarpunk diaries""| |18:41:15| From John : zeitgeisty| |18:42:20| From anon3828707713 : Solarpunk salons| |18:42:42| From Chris Adams : https://solarpunks.net| |18:44:07| From Chris Adams : [Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Solarpunk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Solarpunk)| |18:45:01| From Maria : [Reddit: Solarpunk Architecture at the Singapore Airport](https://www.reddit.com/r/solarpunk/comments/bdme2l/solarpunk_architecture_at_the_singapore_airport/)| |18:46:26| From Chris Adams : Chris will share a bunch of links and people active in this field| |18:46:58| From Chris Adams : chris@anon |18:47:41| From anon2945747231snip : chris, I’d also like to get you in touch with Coda Story’s managing editor, he’s interested in going to the OMGClimate and may want to write a anon2488317424 news brief about it, so it’d be great if he could talk with you| |18:48:08| From anon3828707713 : Zenna story| |18:49:18| From anon3828707713 : Nadia crafts skeleanon2863106368 invitation to series of calls where solarpanks meet and get to know one another - share each others’ stories and then post on platform and discuss together there| |18:49:49| From anon3828707713 : Chris edits and helps reach out and draw in people via personal channels| |18:55:10| From anon3828707713 : Let me know when the events are happening in London are happening| |18:55:19| From anon3828707713 : I can hop on train to hop over| |18:55:34| From John : you are the youngest person I ever heard saying ‘groovy’| |18:55:38| From anon3828707713 : Patchwork - can you invite me Chirs?| |18:55:45| From anon3828707713 : anon3828707713@anon1577251828.eu| |18:55:48| From anon3828707713 : chris| |18:57:19| From anon3828707713 : ELa Kagel, Caroline Paulick Thiel| |18:57:26| From anon3828707713 : Susanne Stauch| |18:57:29| From anon3828707713 : Peter Harris| |18:57:52| From anon3828707713 : Oliver is also based in Berlin| |18:58:12| From Maria : we have a thread with the berlin organisers going to get together| |18:58:22| From John : Peter Bihr is there. He seems to know just about everyone| |18:58:41| From Maria : https://anon1577251828.eu/t/edgeryder-festival-locations-in-berlin/10637| |18:59:34| From anon3828707713 : anon2071999133 Ohuiginn| |18:59:41| From anon3828707713 : anon2071999133ohu| |19:00:31| From anon3828707713 : facilitation/organisation costs| |19:01:03| From anon3828707713 : So what we would like to ensure there is really high quality documentation| |19:01:24| From anon3828707713 : So it might be worthwhile hiring someone to do it| |19:02:11| From Chris Adams : option 1: a projected shared doc (i.e. google doc)| |19:02:25| From Chris Adams : Option 2: always having a single person in the sessions| |19:03:14| From Chris Adams : 1st person is really important, not a synthesis| |19:06:20| From anon3828707713 : I think we hire someone| |19:06:29| From anon3828707713 : No recording audio, just typing etc| |19:06:32| From anon3828707713 : Yep| [/quote] _Please add your comments and what takeaways from the call as well as Solarpunk and contact links!_ It was a blast and we would recomend you to join the next call: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-festival-going-places/10984" 1,60495,2019-10-03T11:09:00.078Z,10984,0,10,9,12,0,0,92.0,60495,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![8th|690x488](upload://q0kpFdk1AWvHOC9xeLJXeIWsYyd.png) Hello, Dear community members and NGI Festival Participants! During this Community call we would like to discuss two things: 1. How locally and timely near NGI related events during the festival can help and profit each other by planning outreach, the location, food and documentation together. (Especially the organisers in Berlin and Brussels should come together here to use the opportunity to discuss such directly) 2. About travel needs and costs to bring NGI relevant speakers and participants to your event. This might be especially interesting for those organising their festival in other interesting locations and those who want to go there. As always we meet 18:00 Brussels time on zoom: https://zoom.us/j/489971765 on Thursday the 8th of October. Looking forward to speaking to you!" 2,60499,2019-10-03T11:34:22.742Z,10984,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,60495,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,ping @anon850704935 1,55908,2019-06-30T21:32:45.137Z,10267,0,37,36,91,0,0,507.4,55908,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"## Edgeryders community video chats take place every Tuesday from 18:00 to 19:00 CET (Brussels time) on [Zoom](https://zoom.us/j/489971765). You can add a [Calendar Reminder here.](https://zoom.us/meeting/uZwkfu6pqT0vVYoNECnUgDF3EfwNQ2Fjhg/ics?icsToken=757857ca0fc7fcef188e37ab8885d4d8e33aa7d15bf76d44766b3680df83f698) ![communitycalls%20logo|690x488](upload://ck5fla6nhXjhrSdSliSe09H6vw7.png)
# Dear community members and new participants, An important reason why Edgeryders such a valuable resource for all of us is that communication between participants happens in a specially designed online-and-offline process. It is structured in such a way as to support everyone's personal and professional development. **Most people start by creating accounts on ederyders.eu and introduce themselves and what they are interested right now [here](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/campfire).** This helps the community managers to connect you to the right conversations for you. Others browse what others have posted and leave thoughtful comments when they find one that interests them. **Every week the Edgeryders community managers host a video chat where participants discuss what the community members have all been thoughtfully writing about on the online forum.** This is a kind of virtual cafe where those who have already been part of those discussions can drop in to meet face-to-face. In order to reflect on anon2696444391 to build on what has been learned so far over a cup of coffee. **Those who might be new to it but interested, and would like to get involved more directly also find this a nice and easy way to get to know who and what is happening** - and anon2696444391 they can get started. Those calls take place every Tuesday from 18:00 to 19:00 CET (Brussels time) Sep 24, 2019 06:00 PM Oct 1, 2019 06:00 PM Oct 8, 2019 06:00 PM Oct 15, 2019 06:00 PM Oct 22, 2019 06:00 PM Oct 29, 2019 06:00 PM Nov 5, 2019 06:00 PM Nov 12, 2019 06:00 PM Nov 19, 2019 06:00 PM Nov 26, 2019 06:00 PM Dec 3, 2019 06:00 PM Dec 10, 2019 06:00 PM Dec 17, 2019 06:00 PM _Download a [Calendar Reminder here.](https://zoom.us/meeting/uZwkfu6pqT0vVYoNECnUgDF3EfwNQ2Fjhg/ics?icsToken=757857ca0fc7fcef188e37ab8885d4d8e33aa7d15bf76d44766b3680df83f698)_
# How to to Join community video chat: It is easy, at the right time (any Tuesday at 19:00 CET (Brussels time) click on this link https://zoom.us/j/489971765 _(download [Calendar Reminder here](https://zoom.us/meeting/uZwkfu6pqT0vVYoNECnUgDF3EfwNQ2Fjhg/ics?icsToken=757857ca0fc7fcef188e37ab8885d4d8e33aa7d15bf76d44766b3680df83f698))_ Looking forward to seeing you during the next call!" 2,56021,2019-07-02T01:48:09.345Z,10267,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,55908,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892 Could you please add licence and attribution information to your topic, for the picture you use at the top. Also, I added date and time to this event. This feature (to add date and time to topics in this category) is actually required, because this is anon2696444391 events are re-published on ngi.anon1577251828.eu/events ([details](/t/9687)). As this feature cannot understand repeating regular events, you have two options for the community calls: * Updating the date and time of this topic after each community call so it keeps pointing to the next upcoming one. * Creating a separate topic for each community call. (If you haven't seen this gray italics text thing yet: this is ""whisper mode"", a Discourse feature for admins and moderators to communicate in topics with one another, without ""normal"" users seeing it. It's good for editorial hints etc..)" 3,56198,2019-07-05T06:25:19.003Z,10267,0,6,5,0,0,0,1.2,56021,anon1753543892,anon3197437925,"Hello, The image was from the NGI folder. Can add something later. All the best, Maria" 4,59700,2019-09-22T08:09:46.539Z,10267,0,4,3,0,0,0,15.8,56021,anon3828707713,anon3197437925,This is a nounproject Icon -as I have a paid subscription we can use it licence and attribution free @anon3197437925 5,60498,2019-10-03T11:28:31.633Z,10267,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,55908,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,post for the call on the 8th of October: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-festival-going-places/10984 1,59776,2019-09-23T18:49:58.879Z,10849,0,16,15,85,0,0,488.2,59776,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![communitycalls%20logo%201st%20of%20october|690x488](upload://vGQfyxdlpJRIekme849oKlnW4rk.png) **Interested in Deep Green Tech?** Join us for a community call Featuring @anon2670920295 from coat lab and @anon2616197748 talking about their experiences with Deep Green Tech projects and their coming plans in general and for the Edgeryders Festival workshops in particular. If you want to learn more, share your thoughts or help to realize some events and sustainable workshops join us on Tuesday the 1st of October 18:00 Brussels time here: https://zoom.us/j/489971765" 2,59779,2019-09-23T20:14:26.461Z,10849,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,59776,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,ping @anon850704935 3,59792,2019-09-24T07:34:29.064Z,10849,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,59776,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,I'll be there! 4,60121,2019-09-30T08:25:08.818Z,10849,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,59776,anon294806887,anon1753543892,"I can join for 40 mins I think! yaaay, looking forward to meet you @anon2670920295. Chris, I know already and happy is partaking!!" 5,60122,2019-09-30T08:45:17.605Z,10849,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,60121,anon3828707713,anon294806887,Me too :) 1,58843,2019-09-05T17:44:06.419Z,10693,0,19,18,68,0,0,388.8,58843,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![communitycalls%20logo%2017th%20of%20Sept|690x488](upload://qAjoMbwy0shPcFSO4oMHHY7xsdM.png) # **Hello, dear community members and everyone interested in participating in the Edgeryders NGI Festival, if you want to know what is planned for the Edgeryders NGI Community Festival or want to have some feedback about the idea you are proposing before the deadline on the 20th of September, come to our community call on Tuesday the 17th of September from 18:00.** https://zoom.us/j/788229402 If you have an idea we will give everyone who wants up to 5 minutes presenting their project to get some feedback, but if you are not there yet or just want to listen, no problem. If you want to present please post your name under this thread. You can prepare by filling in this form about what you would like to contribute. (If you just want to help out realizing other projects there is also an option for that in the form and it helps us to get an overview): https://ernordic.typeform.com/to/T5psAI # If you have any questions, ask away here or in the call. :)" 2,58844,2019-09-05T17:50:30.719Z,10693,2,18,17,1,0,0,18.6,58843,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"ping @anon3554387720, @anon1608948641, @anon1608948641, @anon3352795496, @anon3747875924, @anon294806887, @anon659222949, @anon2945747231, @anon850704935, @anon3591841007, @anon" 3,58863,2019-09-06T09:41:45.960Z,10693,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,58844,anon1608948641,anon1753543892,added it to my calendar. I should be there! 4,58907,2019-09-07T17:00:33.448Z,10693,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,58844,anon2616197748,anon1753543892,Hi folks. I'm about 90% certain I can make this. See you then! 5,59115,2019-09-11T11:59:21.227Z,10693,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,58843,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,Yep see you! 6,59116,2019-09-11T12:07:26.479Z,10693,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,58843,anon2252645440,anon1753543892,@anon 7,59169,2019-09-11T17:06:32.588Z,10693,0,17,16,2,0,0,28.4,58843,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"**We are moving towards the next step now :)!** We have figured out the over all budget (12 000 EUR + 2500 EUR for travel) and now we have to plan and see anon2696444391 to distribute it and what we need to do to help each other realise the workshops, hackathons and talks. At this point do we need some more information from your side: At the very least we need to know: 1. Names of main organisers 2. Date 3. Title of the event 4. Short description (1-3 sentences) 5. How long is the event 6. How many people? 7. Where is the event? 8. What else do you need? You can quickly answer that in this sheet as soon as possible (this week!): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i5sOTG-zoRrLmACPe8eW62YFi5-xsz_aUSUlAqqsCo8/edit?usp=sharing HOWEVER, IT WOULD BE EVEN BETTER IF YOU FILL OUT THIS MORE DETAILED FORM: (Deadline 20th of September!) https://ernordic.typeform.com/to/T5psAI We developed this one specifically for the festival, taking into account the questions and needs that came up during the previous calls and discussions. **We need this to be filled out by everyone contributing an event by the 20th of September!** It is also a great help to develop your proposal post and/or prepare for the community call on the 17th of September 18:00 Brussels time: https://zoom.us/j/788229402 During that call everyone who wants will be given up to 5 minutes to present their idea and get feedback and support from others. This is a great opportunity to develop your idea further before the initial proposal deadline on the 20th. After that date we will start to distribute budget and helpers, and the sooner you are in this process, the better! Looking forward to your answers and to see you in the call!" 8,59493,2019-09-17T15:31:33.550Z,10693,2,16,15,1,0,0,48.2,58843,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"A reminder to everyone who wants to propose an event/help with graphics or similar for the Edgeryders festival. The call is today 18:00 Brussels time https://zoom.us/j/788229402 ping @anon3554387720, @anon1608948641, @anon1608948641, @anon3352795496, @anon3747875924, @anon294806887, @anon659222949, @anon2945747231, @anon850704935, @anon3591841007, @anon" 9,59494,2019-09-17T15:32:24.313Z,10693,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,59493,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"Looking forward to it, see you in a bit!" 10,59499,2019-09-17T15:47:07.766Z,10693,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,59493,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,"My internet right now is only good enough for writing and reading, but please do let me know anon2696444391 I can help!" 11,59525,2019-09-17T19:26:09.712Z,10693,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,59499,anon3828707713,anon2945747231,there is documentation of the call - maybe if you could have a look and summarise key points that think make sense for us to take away from it? 12,59526,2019-09-17T19:28:48.614Z,10693,1,14,13,2,0,0,62.8,58843,anon2682865457,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892 @anon2945747231 Darnit. I got the dates confused. Are there notes or such from the meeting? A status update from me is that I have safed the location in Malmö, for no cost, and am currently looking at the dates of the 23-24th of November with a smaller gathering on the 24th and a larger gathering on the 23d. The plan is to organize it as a world café which includes note taking role at each table. I'm still double checking the travel plans but have a preliminary yes from three speakers, one from Aarhus, one from Helsinki and one from Paris. The theme for the conference will be tech + earth with the taglines etc still to be figured out. I can create the graphics for this as well but would be happy to ensure that this is coherent with the rest of the design. Looking forwards to hear more about anon2696444391 things are developing. I would also be keen on partaking in a smaller call with people from the Berlin group / the Stockholm group :cherry_blossom:" 13,59527,2019-09-17T20:14:43.646Z,10693,0,14,13,1,0,0,67.8,59526,anon3828707713,anon2682865457,"Cool. I put together a draft for a potential festival event/workshop on topics at the intersections of climate/ecological degradation (stresses to earth systems) and tech. Feel free to use/develop/remix/critique/discard https://anon1577251828.eu/t/draft-anon2696444391-do-we-weave-together-the-threads-of-various-conversations-we-are-having-around-a-deep-green-transition-and-what-are-our-next-steps/10775 Any comments/suggestions for people to reach out to are welcome. Also, this is an open invitation for anyone who wants to participate or collaborate on this someanon2696444391. ping @anon2616197748 @anon2670920295 @anon2157212760 @anon3203746736 @anon1753543892 @anon3592950533 @anon" 14,59593,2019-09-18T16:11:42.366Z,10693,1,10,9,1,0,0,57.0,58843,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892 Right now we are planning a workshop on ecoarchitecture (essentially a design sprint to cocreate infrastructure for new commons-oriented coop) in Saarbruecken on Nov 28. The ws is integrated into a seminar at the art academy dedicated to the ""cultures of open"" . If there is any budget available it would be used to bring two people from the edgeryder network and/or likeminded orgs to Saarbruecken. Sorry I keep missing calls but it has been a superbusy month of travel / conferences, no lack if interest. I also wanted to ask if we can use the platform fir the cultures of open group." 15,59595,2019-09-18T16:34:51.640Z,10693,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,59593,anon3747875924,anon3747875924,@anon1753543892 I submitted via yr typeform but lost my internet connection during submission... did u get it? 16,59610,2019-09-18T21:57:30.402Z,10693,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,59595,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,@anon3747875924 looks like I have an entry from you :). Your internet lasted long enough. Thank you. Looking forward to it! 17,59974,2019-09-26T14:07:48.718Z,10693,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,59610,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"Hi @anon1753543892 where exactly is the latest version of the festival planning? Can add more details now, but w/o budget it will remain just an idea :(" 18,59988,2019-09-26T16:19:14.798Z,10693,1,5,4,1,0,0,11.0,59974,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,I will send you a link anon2863106368ight or tomorrow for the updating. To claere the budget patches anon2696444391 about we schedule a 1-1 call Monday or Tuesday? Which time would suit you? @anon3747875924 19,59992,2019-09-26T17:00:10.000Z,10693,2,6,5,1,0,0,16.2,59988,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"Cool, thx much. Mo at 14:00?" 20,60008,2019-09-27T07:35:49.667Z,10693,0,6,5,2,0,0,26.2,59992,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"@anon3747875924, we have this thread where we are in the process of filling in the proposed projects: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/festival-program-overview/10731 (as you can see 6. is referring to your project. I started filling it in a bit from the form you filled out I would be great if you could start by filling in the title of your event there. then you could add some more details there, but depending on anon2696444391 much has changed it would probably be good if you could fill out the form again if that is ok for you? (we need some of the points in there to refer back to the EU sponsors) (https://ernordic.typeform.com/to/T5psAI) But the best way to have the event develop naturally would be by making a post on Edgeryders NGI Event page that includes the important information and questions about your event so we can work with the whole community to give feedback organise collaborators and realise the ideas :)" 21,60113,2019-09-30T06:32:04.946Z,10693,0,6,5,1,0,0,21.2,59992,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,"Hello @anon3747875924, I sheduled our meeting for 14:100: Here is the link: Edgeryders Team is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. Topic: 1-1 Meeting with @anon Time: Sep 30, 2019 02:00 PM Brussels Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/375333001?pwd=akFkMFpzcnFCV0xpQkJnRWpqQmltUT09 Meeting ID: 375 333 001 Password: 388077" 1,60087,2019-09-29T15:07:23.149Z,10911,0,12,11,20,0,0,162.4,60087,anon3708943593,anon3708943593,"Hi all, The use of Artificial Intelligence in healthcare has been a reoccuring topic in conversation in the popular media and in academia. Often discussed in terms of its revolutionary potential. This article in Nature does a great job of summing up some of the tricky nuances + sanon2696444391ing anon2696444391 the use of such datacentric systems can backfire when it comes to providing suitable healthcare to marginalized populations. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02872-2 Thought it might be of interest, would also love to hear what examples of AI use in health care exist in Europe and anon2696444391 these have been assessed given the concerns highlighted in this article. Cheers, anon3708943593" 1,60070,2019-09-29T04:21:53.895Z,10906,0,7,6,2,0,0,26.4,60070,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"We are adding the bios in this wiki, please feel free add your own: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/festival-participant-bios/10905
_ping @anon1753543892 and @anon3203746736 : it would be great if you could reach to to the people you know are involved!_" 1,59998,2019-09-26T22:05:42.389Z,10893,2,18,17,176,0,0,948.6,59998,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"While at [MyData 2019](https://mydata2019.org/), I spent a lot of time in the same room. Room F was where a lot of the discussion on the economic dimension of the data ecosystem happened. To my surprise, the MyData community seems to have a rough consensus that monetizing personal data is not a long-term sustainable way to run a data economy. The person that came up with the clearest formulation was perhaps Finnish lawyer Jussi Mäkinnen (not verbatim, I am quoting from my notes): > When copyright was invented in the 17th century, lawmakers conjured up a new property right, the right to own something immaterial. They knew it was a bit of a ghost, with anon2488317424 grounds in terms of the legal system of the time, but they wanted a way to reward the creators and their publishers. That, anon2696444391ever, created more long-term problems than it solved. So, we have learned from the copyright story that legislating private ownership of personal data is probably a bad idea. The parallel with copyright seems a profound intuition. On reflection I see anon2696444391 it is, in practice, a similar situation. Humans had been producing content before copyright, but when large-scale reproduction was invented in the 16th century suddenly there was an economic value to (cheap) copies. This created a conflict on who got to appropriate that value, and as a result a new legal subsystem sprang into life. With personal data is the same: they existed before the Internet and data science, but now they are worth money, and this creates another distributive conflict. The chair of that same session, John Wunderlich, is Caanon3828707713n. He remarked that Caanon3828707713n First Nations have created [their own set of principles](https://fnigc.ca/ocap) around data management. The reason: > In the past, Aboriginal people have not been consulted about what information should be collected, who should gather that information, who should maintain it, and who should have access to it. The information gathered may or may not have been relevant to the questions, priorities and concerns of Aboriginal peoples. Because data gathering has frequently been imposed by outside authorities, it has met with resistance in many quarters. The most enlightening presentation was Ingrid Schneider's . She is a political science professor at U Hamburg. She described four main proposals around the economics of a data society: * Individual data ownership + micropayments (Jaron Lanier, 2015). * Data as public goods, managed by the state (Evgeni Morozov , 2017) * Data as commons (Elinor Ostrom, 1990), managed by communities. * Fiduciary trust (David Winickoff (2003 & 2005), where people commit their data to fiduciary trust, who governs the system. Schneider discussed the relative merits of these four models, and made a case that Europe is currently ""squeezed"" between a Lanierian-dystopian America and a Morozovian China, but maybe Europe could (and should) develop a third way. She went on to remark: > The discussion about property rights is an Anglo-American one. In the European legal tradition, we have the notion of inalienable rights: we have them, _and we can never give them away_. I do not support the idea of data as commodities."" This is a very powerful idea. And anyway > It does not make sense for data to be a commodity, because their value arises in the aggregation. Which means they are bought for cheap (by companies) and sold expensive. @anon3554654177 liked the presentation too, and immediately invited Schneider to our policy summit next year. Ping also @anon1965424313: there are profound policy implications here." 2,60003,2019-09-27T07:02:34.000Z,10893,1,17,16,1,1,0,28.4,59998,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Indeed! Loretta was also very impressed and the plan is to invite her to AMS next year and maybe have a workshop with her before that time. [quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:10893""] And anyway > It does not make sense for data to be a commodity, because their value arises in the aggregation. Which means they are bought for cheap (by companies) and sold expensive. [/quote] Yes, this is/was also the ’scam’ of the Open Data movement, resulting in me paying twice for services, once in taxes to a government that then opens up the data to ’startups’ than turn it into an actionable service (which should be done in the first place by .gov) for which I also end up paying as the successful ones all end up in the #GAFA ecosystem." 3,60006,2019-09-27T07:28:23.558Z,10893,0,15,14,2,1,0,13.0,60003,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"[quote=""anon3554654177, post:2, topic:10893""] Yes, this is/was also the ’scam’ of the Open Data movement, resulting in me paying twice for services, once in taxes to a government that then opens up the data to ’startups’ than turn it into an actionable service (which should be done in the first place by .gov) for which I also end up paying as the successful ones all end up in the #GAFA ecosystem. [/quote] Ouch. That hurt, @anon3554654177 :slight_smile:" 4,60053,2019-09-28T09:55:10.159Z,10893,1,12,11,33,1,0,172.4,59998,anon3592950533,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:10893""] inalienable rights [/quote] Hmm ...checking some reference seems to indicate that the notion of 'inalienable rights' historically relate to the concept of 'natural rights'. Furthermore, a lot of reference to the US-law system come up, including 'inalienable right to own property'. So, data that describe 'me' are my inalienable property?..." 5,60060,2019-09-28T15:57:37.803Z,10893,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,60053,anon3379761435,anon3592950533,"Yes. They would be like the right to freedom. You have it, and *you are not allowed to sell it*. You cannot sell yourself into slavery (which you could under Roman Imperial law). These are rights removed from the commercial domain." 1,59999,2019-09-26T23:43:45.851Z,10894,0,11,10,32,0,0,207.2,59999,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Talking about utopias. What might it be like? In this 24 minute podcast, Noah talks with @anon2682865457 about his philosophy he calls ""practical idealism"", discusses the notion of ""cyber peace"" and ways to get there, starting small and moving outward from there, and anon2696444391 AI might fit into it all. https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/a/af0dc0a604aec3fe2fcaff77f8975bbc858c89b3.mp3" 2,60047,2019-09-27T19:21:02.011Z,10894,0,8,7,1,0,0,36.6,59999,anon3208609502,anon3203746736,"Hi, Noah -- Very interesting. I am an economist, and I think your view of what economics is about is largely shaped by the views of the majority of economists who (as with most fields) have not deeply thought about what their field is about, and so have an excessively narrow view. This doesn't matter so much for many areas, but it matters a great deal in economics. Economics is not at all about money -- actually money itself is useless. This is obvious -- you cannot eat it or live in it or drive it or play with it. Money is only valuable because it is possible to exchange it for things that are actually useful. Moreover, we often have a very limited idea of what those things are. The things we want are not just consumables or extras in the vast majority of cases: if you look at what people spend their money on, it is easy to see that housing is the largest item. Other large items are transportation, education, health care, clothing and food -- none of these are extras. In fact, if you look at what people want in any kind of clear way, it is obvious that these go back to the things that are mentioned in any first-year psychology course under the heading of Maslow's Pyramid of Needs. These begin with physiological needs such as housing and health care; on the second level are about security needs; on the third level revolve around the need for love and belonging; fourth level ""esteem"" or respect and self-respect; the fifth is creativity and self-expression. Whatever people want are some combination of these needs. For most people most of the time, their focus is on creating a ""nest"" of love and belonging which fulfills their need for companionship, creating and fostering children, and caring for loved ones. By and large, the great majority of environmental problems around consumption are not associated with what people want, but with the industrial processes by which those products are produced. Since people are focused on their direct needs, they are less concerned with processes. Moreover, they want to use their available resources to obtain as much of their desired life as they can, so cost is a big factor, and this can drive processes. So it seems to me there are several takeaways: one is to educate people to be more concerned with the ways in which the products they use affect the world around them and on anon2696444391 they can push suppliers to make products in more environmentally friendly ways. This is starting but needs to progress a lot more, and schools are a great place for this to happen. The second is to sensitize children from birth in love for nature. Unfortunately this is currently headed in the opposite direction, as we are increasingly isolated from nature in our technology and controlled indoor environments. Schools also need to help here, although families are the most important. And then from a more directly economics point of view, environmental costs of industrial processes need to be made part of the price of goods, so that price signals reflect actual costs. Rather than regulation it is better to tax environmental damages, so that companies can use the least costly means to reduce the damage they cost. So there is a political component, but also a major educational component, and an underlying economic thrust to these measures." 1,59949,2019-09-26T07:26:07.650Z,10883,0,8,7,4,0,0,21.6,59949,anon659222949,anon659222949,"At the NGI Forum @anon1965424313 and Harry Armstrong held a workshop on a potential future NGI Trustmark, a certification for technology considered to live up to the ideals of an ""internet for humans"". These are my notes from the workshop. Katja and Harry, please add what I have missed and correct what I might have misunderstood. Trustmarks are nothing new, they exist for everything from fair-trade for food to energy efficiency for domestic appliances. They exist because, without them, ethical technologies are hard to find. It's a fragmented marketplace and there is a lack of coordination. NGI has an opportunity to address that by developing a Trustmark, and this workshop was one step in that direction. Of course, defining ""ethical"" is no easy feat. Things to be considered could be privacy, fairness, bias, sustainability, security and countless other factors. There are many open questions, and this workshop did not aim to limit the scope but was rather an open exploration of the topic. We know that there is some appetite for data protection trustmarks. One participant quoted a figure stating that 67% of consumers would like for such a certification to exist. But data protection is only one aspect of ethical data-driven technology, and the consumer appetite for other consideration is unclear. In a way, terms of service are like very long and opaque trustmarks for what companies may do with your data. However, as we know, they are close to useless from a consumer perspective as a tool to compare technologies. One sort of trustmark could focus on making sure that terms of services live up to certain standards and include respectful defaults. GDPR has also become something of a trustmark, being used as shorthand when talking about data protection. What makes it effective is that there is accountability. As one participant said: ""You are trusted because you are accountable"". This workshop did not go into detail, but we managed to write down some interesting opportunities and challenges of developing a trustmarks. ### Opportunities * It creates a branding for ethical product, creating a virtuous circle where you must be certified to compete. * You can start creating new products based on being certified ethical, much like some lines of washing machines have as their unique selling point to be energy efficient. * Companies can account for what value consumers are giving up to get something for free. Facebook and its ilk would then have to be very upfront about its business model during signup. * A well-designed mark can become a strong marketing tool, by making the mark itself a brand. * A certifying body could include individual consumers who are, as a group, given equal weight to the industry. * AI bias is difficult because reducing bias often decreases accuracy. AI bias could be addressed by requiring companies to be upfront about what trade-offs they have accepted and anon2696444391 their AIs are biased. This is much like anon2696444391 human bias (internalized racism, sexism, etc) is addressed by becoming aware of one's own bias. * Sustainability, security and ethics of data centers could be certified by independent observers, similar to UN polling observants. ### Challenges * A trust mark with high standards might not work, if every single data giant ends up with a bad rating, trustmark might come across as too punitive * Privacy might be the easy part of the certification, but fairness will be harder. Addressing AI bias and error is harder. * Where would such a trustmark be placed? How would you see it? * If the trustmarks becomes something that one ""pays a premium"" for, will privacy and ethical tech become even more of an elite privilege? * Who pays to certify open source software? * Entrenched business models will lobby against it. * It can easily become a barrier for entry for startups if not done right. At the end of the workshop, participants were asked to name one thing that they though a trustmark must cover. These were some answers (I didn't catch everything): * Transparency: A non-technical person must be able to understand in a reasonable time frame, for what purpose and anon2696444391 is it collected and used? Steps forward for the commission would be to look at existing best practice for sustainability trustmarks in particular. * People don't know anon2696444391 their data is being used, and the next step is to make those who break trust pay. * Simplicity and usability of the mark are key. * Create respectful defaults. One such concrete default would be to always have a user accessible off-switch for the AI. (On this point, one participant recommended a book on urban planning called [""Massive small""](https://www.massivesmall.org/)." 2,59952,2019-09-26T07:50:13.341Z,10883,0,6,5,2,0,0,11.2,59949,anon659222949,anon659222949,"Following up with some of my own remarks. I think there is an inherent difference between at least two categories of trustmarks. One category is exemplified by the energy efficiency certification on a washing machine an the other by a fairtrade sticker on a banana. While the first has some direct and appreciated practical consequences for the owner of the washing machine, namely a lower electricity bill, the person buying the fairtrade banana only gets to feel like they are doing the right thing. I would argue that an NGI Trustmark will be more like the sticker on the banana than the sticker on the washing machine. It is true that leaked personal data due to lax cybersecurity, or sold personal data due to lax ethics, may have an individual impact, but this is really a franon2945747231 phenomenon. A vast majority of people who get their data leaked or sold are only a single datapoint in hundreds of thousands of others, and will usually suffer no consequences as a result. There are exceptions – people who for one reason or another are more likely to be harassed or targeted are also harmed more than others by leaks – but this almost per definition a minority. Instead, the consequences of leaked or sold data are usually societal and structural – lex Cambridge Analytica, and in that real security becomes an elite privilege. This is this relevant because I think it might be wise to not try to make this sticker into something that focuses on what the consumer is getting from the product because I think most consumers will just keep making the long term privacy trade-off for the short term price tag. This is also relevant for design and branding, as the strategy pursued to get people to care about a fair-trade sticker is probably very different from a campaign promoting energy efficiency certification." 3,59973,2019-09-26T13:57:15.437Z,10883,2,5,4,1,0,0,16.0,59949,anon3203746736,anon659222949,Let’s see if @anon3086952555 can weigh in on this. He has studied this extensively as the main focus of his Mozilla Fellowship. Peter? 4,59987,2019-09-26T16:09:42.231Z,10883,0,5,4,2,0,0,11.0,59973,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,"well there was some discussion about this in the thread I kicked off on anon2696444391 one ought not to approach the work of developing a deep green trustmark for digital tech. I asked what people felt it made sense to avoid or try doing etc. It's here https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-internet-of-biases-and-other-terrible-ways-to-open-a-conversation/10190 Looking forward to hear from @anon2559300400 and the rest of the ethno/ssna gang what is coming out of that and other deep green related threads. Might make visible some emergent insights." 5,59995,2019-09-26T20:57:20.627Z,10883,1,5,4,1,0,0,56.0,59973,anon3086952555,anon3203746736,"Happy to, and thanks for tagging me in this thread. What I'm writing is based on developing the [Trustable Technology Mark](https://trustabletech.org), a trustmark for connected consumer products, issued by our non-profit, [ThingsCon](https://thingscon.org). So that's the area I looked at most closely, but I think a lot might apply beyond IoT. So, there are various categories of ""trust marks"", some more explicit than others, like: Certifications, which often certify compliance with a law or regulation, like the CE mark, or the more general ""consumer marks"" or ""trust marks"", which depending on the jurisdiction are less ""hard"" so to speak. Either one of them needs an issuing body, meaning for larger scale projects we're talking about large organizations. (ThingsCon's Trustable Technology Mark is both very young and a very small project, and technically speaking not a certification but a mark we license companies to use if they meet certain criteria for transparency and other aspects. Details matter in these things.) That said, after having studied this for anon2373157426 some time but without a longer-term background in this space I think it's fair to say that just about any assumption you'd make (""it just needs to do X by Y in oder to demonstrate Z"") is anon2373157426 likely not going to stand up to a somewhat rigorous kicking of the proverbial tires. For things that are as vague/debatable as ""ethical"" or ""fair"" or even the much easier (but still freakishly hard to define) ""private"", even a baseline definition is incredibly hard, because we're talking about nearly philosophical debates plus _a lot_ of contextual interpretations. That said, I'm not here to grump around and I would like to see more of this in the world. So practically speaking, what are the challenges and opportunities? Challenges: * Trust in the issuing org: Who is the trusted authority of issuing this trust mark? * Legal status: Is this a thing that's legally required for entering the market, i.e. a regulation? In that case, funding will not be an issue, but it'll have to be a so-called ""base line certification"", meaning a LOT of products need to be able to get it. This is a much lower standard than we might want. Think of the CE mark: It indicates that your TV won't set the house on fire, but it doesn't guarantee it's well made in any other way. * Reach: If anon2696444391ever the standard we aim for is higher, than by definition less products will qualify, meaning it must almost by definition be a voluntary thing. Which is good for many things, but means we're now talking about massive outreach or marketing, and likely about requiring a business model. If anon2696444391ever you get paid for issuing this, then there's already a potential conflict of interest to issue as many as possible, so it might erode trust into the mark itself. * For anything connected, a software update might change important details or features, and also what happens to the data is often something that happens far from the actual product in the cloud, or on third party servers. Whatever the trustmark promises, it needs to apply to every party that has access to the data or that is involved in bringing this product into the world. * Verification: How does the issuing body verify its claims? Are there external audits (good but expensive), is it based on companies providing the info (cheap but harder to trust), or some hybrid? Doteveryone, for example, has studied this in depth [and decided not to go the route of a trustmark](https://doteveryone.org.uk/2019/09/digital-products-and-services-arent-bananas/) and instead just to offer guidelines for making better products, as has the [Better IoT initiative](https://betteriot.org), and frankly with ThingsCon we were short of going that same route (but were really curious to see if we could make it happen - and we'll know in a few years time). Opportunities: * I'd offer the counter claim to what @anon659222949 was saying about consumers' attitudes towards privacy and data protection (thanks Hugi for sharing this; I agree with pretty much the rest you're saying), as well as potential damages. Currently it's not like consumers have a real choice, and if you have to choose between unsafe and not using important services, you'll have to expose yourself to the risk. I think consumers care about privacy anon2373157426 a lot and make the best choices they can, but only have a very narrow band of choices. I also believe that it's not nearly as niche as it's often portrayed and instead the damage in fraud, eroded trust, lost productivity, etc. is anon2373157426 large, even though I hasten to add I haven't studied this in-depth (so take it with a grain of salt). * Nobody has figured out what this means for connected products yet. This is a huge opportunity, because consumers are largely in the dark about what's ok and what isn't. Currently we see a giant market failure there. * A trustmark, whichever shape it takes, could also be complementary to regulation that heavily fines sloppy practices if they hurt consumers. There are many mechanism to potentially make this happen; I'm not familiar with the current state of debate around this, but I'm sure Harry might know. * Finally, I'd say that consumers would hugely benefit from a trustmark if it's established and gains traction, even if they don't know the details of what it checks for. Let's face it, most trustmarks we trust work in ways we're not familiar with, at very different levels, many of which we're so familiar with that depending on context we might not even perceive as such but everybody knows anon2696444391 to interpret according to their own preferences. To give just a few examples from recent debates: Fairtrade; BlueSign; Made in Germany; the fire department colors; CE; and most brand names all the way from Amazon to Red Cross. Trustmarks are everywhere, and they come in many shapes. One thing I'd caution against is to come up with One Trustmark To Rule Them All. Either one of the areas tagged above (privacy, fairness, trustworthiness, sustainability, etc etc.) are huge and complex areas. Something can be extremely fair but not at all private, or perfectly secure yet offer no protection against abuse of data in the way the product is designed; etc. etc. Sustainability for technology is *incredibly* hard, as is privacy, especially if we're comparing across jurisdictions/countries/cultures. (Privacy and data protection are interpreted fundamentally differently in the US than in Germany, for example.) In the end, whoever creates the mark has to decide what they aim to cover and make choices, including many hard choices. No trustmark will solve all issues for everyone. But it might solve some issues for some, or even for many - and that's absolutely an endeavor worth engaging in." 6,59997,2019-09-26T21:21:19.326Z,10883,0,5,4,1,0,0,21.0,59995,anon3203746736,anon3086952555,"Maybe it will develop in a way similar to organic food. We all share some basic ideas of what that is, and I remember when there was no certification for it anywhere. But a variety of certifying orgs emerged and governments got involved. So, now we all still have our notions of what organic means, and generally speaking we are correct - no pesticides or chemical fertilizers was where it started. But now it is much more complex than that and not all standards agree. And some standards don't cover certain aspects of it, like organic animal products, and some do. It's kind of all over the map. Plus, government certifications are subject to political pressure (in the US, the government issues certain exemptions for certain ingredients in certain foods. Lots of grey area in there). So it is all pretty squishy, but overall we benefit from it, even with all the variables." 1,59347,2019-09-16T08:30:57.866Z,10787,0,17,16,28,0,0,203.4,59347,anon2682865457,anon2682865457,"On Why Microsolidarity is Necessary ==== Welcome to this text and brewing. It has been developed within me, grown from the seedling of microsolidarity, in the soil of syndicalism and anarchism, over the course of many months now. To start of, I want to specify what I believe Microsolidarity is necessary for, in extention to the points provided in the [original article](https://medium.com/enspiral-tales/courage-before-hope-a-proposal-to-weave-emotional-and-economic-microsolidarity-87bc81372a09). ## **Microsolidarity is a necessary step to hinder mass-manipulation in contemporary society.** I have come to strongly believe this. I will attempt to bring you with me on my thought journey. I will also try to include my emotions as I believe one (*thought*) is seldomly without the other (*emotion*) no matter anon2696444391 contemporary scientific paradigms may portray it. This display of emotion and thought in combo is not something I have done before, I guess practice makes.... . . . So now, to continue my imperfection: _________________ ### 1. Finding the question and the freudian id With the points of ""14 billion anon2863106368s of ice melting just yesterday"", ""a need for people to come together"", ""to shape new ways of society"" and ""to connect and support each other"", all rang true to me, strong enough for Microsolidarity to embed itself within my thought patterns, I had yet to see anon2696444391 it connected, en masse, and why it would even come to happen at all. In a dark corner of my mind, a bitter voice was whispering ""Why would this even take off?"". I tried not listening to the voice as best I could but silently started looking for an answer. It seemed too big of a task for humans to re-organize. I would have to see an innate contemporary human need, which microsolidarity could provide for, before I could truly believe Microsolidarity could take off. About two years before I read the article on Microsolidarity I watched a documentary called ""[The Swedish Theory of Love](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfyKYeaZcIM)"". Perhaps it spoke to me as a love seeking Swede, but more so it spoke to me in its reflections on the arcitechture of the isolation designed one-room, four-people-families of todays skyrises and white-picket-fence-den societies. A change which has come upon Northern Hemisphere humans in the latest 0,001% of her history. I had seen the need. Could Microsolidarity be a cure of loneliness, the satisfaction to a deep human need, a *desirable* solution? ### 2. Exploring the Need I observed todays society to find an answer as to why society had not already collapsed by the architectured societal loneliness, for my inner logus told me it should've. I found that in a timely fashion, internet and the world wide web came to be, creating and comforting with a community for those for whom there were none. I look at the internet and see a substitution, a band-aid to the loneliness. Corporations feeding endorphines and a sense of belonging to the infected wounds of isolation. What started irking me was who that sense of belonging was to, really? The identites of the communities, ranging from Twitter to Reddit, from Instagram to Tumbler, were rarely through connections to any individual people but to the masse of agreed jargon and inside-jokes, meta-memes, gifs or trends. More musings on this can be [found here](%8+CGdFA7Zj+onCSva39wP2kmKIzEl9FgWvSETHWFLI0=.sha256) yet the bottom line was that these spaces were filled with payed for content, inceptions placed there with corporate incentive, propagand/commercials wearing costumes made up of memes or other relevant community coding to melt into the social settings of the artificial communities. ### 3. Conclusion So what had I found so far? - I had found that there was a need that Microsolidarity could fill: lonliness. - I had found that the need was already covered by artificial communities on the www. - I had found that these artificial communities were easy to incept with messages if one has money and that it was already happening as there was no real way of differentiating between the ""real"" users and corporate shills. The breeding ground for mass-manipulation is close to reaching its final form, setting the anon2863106368e and delivering messages with disguised messengers. What did I feel? - Slight desperation - An urgency to do something - A big ""Ahaaaaaa"" moment - An increased personal need for Microsolidarity My conclusion is that Microsolidarity is not only a great way to go about reshaping and rebuilding the world, it is a means to avoid the dystopia which inevitably comes with mass-manipulation. It allows for this Microsolidarity is not only a step for a healthier earth and person, it's a necessary step of rebellion. Edit: removed an asterics" 2,59350,2019-09-16T09:06:44.598Z,10787,1,17,16,1,0,0,58.4,59347,anon3828707713,anon2682865457,"@anon2682865457 hey :) this is so on point and discussion that has been going on for ages here in one form or another. We did a fairly large research project exploring this in the context of provision of health and social care support where both state and market are failing. Looking at initiatives groups and individuals running as a response. With something as critical as care provision you have the additional parameters of safety, reliability etc. If you are interested I can dig up a few links for you." 3,59370,2019-09-16T12:03:11.508Z,10787,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,59350,anon2682865457,anon3828707713,">We did a fairly large research project exploring this in the context of provision of health and social care support where both state and market are failing. @anon3828707713 This sounds super interesting! Also, highly timely. If you have links I would love to see them!" 4,59409,2019-09-17T04:32:43.196Z,10787,0,15,14,2,0,0,43.0,59347,anon3203746736,anon2682865457,"Microsolidarity, as I understand it (which isn't a lot) is largely based around being part of a ""crew."" I like this notion and it reminds me of the beginnings of my journey, which started on a bus with a group - a crew - of around 8 people. And most of my closest friends over the span of decades are people with whom I was in some kind of crew, in the microsolidarity sense. Working in a garage, playing in a rock band, forging new kinds of online community...things like that. How is it working for you?" 5,59521,2019-09-17T18:26:08.859Z,10787,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,59370,anon3828707713,anon2682865457,"You can download them from the git repo * [D4.6 Research paper - Using collective intelligence to improve care - an empirical study on best practice in the care sector](https://github.com/opencarecc/opencareProjectDeliverables/blob/master/WP4/D4.6%20Research%20paper%20-%20Using%20collective%20intelligence%20to%20improve%20care%20-%20an%20empirical%20study%20on%20best%20practice%20in%20the%20care%20sector.pdf) * [D4.7 Research paper - Integrating community-driven care services in European welfare states (second edition)](https://github.com/opencarecc/opencareProjectDeliverables/blob/master/WP4/D4.7%20Research%20paper%20-%20Integrating%20community-driven%20care%20services%20in%20European%20welfare%20states%20(second%20edition).pdf)" 6,59784,2019-09-23T22:45:01.836Z,10787,2,13,12,1,0,0,32.6,59347,anon2488317424,anon2682865457,"Hey Zelf, i'm super curious about the articles you provided but can't seem to access them. Maybe it's my browser, but I'd love to get those URLs. If it's not too much trouble to re-post or message me :smile:" 7,59807,2019-09-24T10:15:02.000Z,10787,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,59784,anon3747875924,anon2488317424,"[https://github.com/opencarecc/opencareProjectDeliverables/blob/master/WP4/D4.6%20Research%20paper%20-%20Using%20collective%20intelligence%20to%20improve%20care%20-%20an%20empirical%20study%20on%20best%20practice%20in%20the%20care%20sector.pdf](https://github.com/opencarecc/opencareProjectDeliverables/blob/master/WP4/D4.6%20Research%20paper%20-%20Using%20collective%20intelligence%20to%20improve%20care%20-%20an%20empirical%20study%20on%20best%20practice%20in%20the%20care%20sector.pdf) [https://github.com/opencarecc/opencareProjectDeliverables/blob/master/WP4/D4.7%20Research%20paper%20-%20Integrating%20community-driven%20care%20services%20in%20European%20welfare%20states%20(second%20edition).pdf](https://github.com/opencarecc/opencareProjectDeliverables/blob/master/WP4/D4.7%20Research%20paper%20-%20Integrating%20community-driven%20care%20services%20in%20European%20welfare%20states%20(second%20edition).pdf)" 8,59835,2019-09-24T19:21:45.450Z,10787,0,13,12,1,0,0,37.6,59807,anon2488317424,anon3747875924,"Thanks Soenke, but was more curious about the anon2488317424 blue links that Zelf embedded in her write up. ""original article"", ""the swedish theory of love"", ""found here""" 9,59934,2019-09-25T21:15:22.590Z,10787,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,59784,anon2682865457,anon2488317424,"haha yes! Sorry, it seems all of the links disappeared. Sadly some of them are posts I made on scuttlebutt but I can link them anyways, Here they are: ""found here"" (musings on memes from a post I made on scuttlebutt) %8+CGdFA7Zj+onCSva39wP2kmKIzEl9FgWvSETHWFLI0=.sha256 Microsolidarity, original article: https://medium.com/enspiral-tales/courage-before-hope-a-proposal-to-weave-emotional-and-economic-microsolidarity-87bc81372a09 Swedish Theory of Love: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rorr7vBGz-c" 1,59880,2019-09-25T11:18:38.735Z,10863,0,11,10,17,0,0,177.2,59880,anon3086952555,anon3086952555,"If you haven’t seen it yet, [ImageNet Roulette](https://imagenet-roulette.paglen.com/) is an excellent bit of educational/provocative art by the ever-brilliant Kate Crawford and Trevor Paglan. It’s a simple demonstrator of anon2696444391 facial recognition will label you based on its training data set. Concretely, based on ImageNet, which according to this project is the dominant training model out there, used widely in the making of real world products. I highly encourage you to try it out, but with a warning: The results might be hilarious, or pretty disturbing. ImageNet Roulette is best enjoyed side by side with [Excavating AI](https://www.excavating.ai/), which explains a anon2488317424 better what’s going on: > “Training sets, then, are the foundation on which contemporary machine-learning systems are built. They are central to anon2696444391 AI systems recognize and interpret the world. These datasets shape the epistemic boundaries governing anon2696444391 AI systems operate, and thus are an essential part of understanding socially significant questions about AI. But when we look at the training images widely used in computer-vision systems, we find a bedrock composed of shaky and skewed assumptions.” I tested a few configurations of photos of myself, and depending on my facial expression had the photo labeled as a wild, and wildly wrong, range of things (including ""rich person"", ""grass widower"", and ""econometrist""): See also: [AI based surveillance running amok.](https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/09/17/global-expansion-of-ai-surveillance-pub-79847) A super short “best of”: > At least seventy-five out of 176 countries globally are actively using AI technologies for surveillance purposes. This includes: smart city/safe city platforms (fifty-six countries), facial recognition systems (sixty-four countries), and smart policing (fifty-two countries). > Liberal democracies are major users of AI surveillance. > Democracies are not taking adequate steps to monitor and control the spread of sophisticated technologies linked to a range of violations. China is the leading exporter of this type of surveillance tech, but US and European countries are in on it, too. Seriously, read this one, it’s as quick to read as it is horrifying." 2,59883,2019-09-25T11:38:46.829Z,10863,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,59880,anon3379761435,anon3086952555,So econometrician are supposed to have a type? Is that not a purely statistical artifact? Beware Bayesian statistics when it's undertheorized... 1,59237,2019-09-13T02:45:47.678Z,10768,0,10,9,31,0,0,172.0,59237,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"Leading U.S. facial recognition expert Anil K. Jain, the head of Michigan State University’s Biometrics Research Group, is facing major backlash for his involvement with Chinese academics, especially since his research is used by the Chinese government for their facial recognition tech to track Uyghurs and send them to internment camps. ![229|690x361](upload://aeQ10vf4h20nEdkeYoa1OqLGVcA.png) In 2018, Jain traveled to Xinjiang’s capital Urumqi to give a speech about facial recognition at the Chinese Conference on Biometrics Recognition (CCBR). Jain was also on the CCBR’s advisory board and was pictured receiving an honorary certificate. > Jain is regarded as one of the world’s most influential computer scientists and a pioneer in areas of pattern recognition and biometric recognition systems. He has won countless awards and honors and is often quoted on U.S. facial recognition issues in publications like Wired and Slate. In the same month as Jain presented a paper titled “From the Edge of Biometrics: What’s Next?” at the CCBR conference in Urumqi, a United Nations human rights panel described Xinjiang as resembling a “massive internment camp that is shrouded in secrecy.” [LINK](https://codastory.com/authoritarian-tech/influential-us-scientist-under-fire-xinjiang-links/) Biometrics have played a major role in the Chinese “anti-terror” crackdown on its Muslim minority the Uyghurs. Thousands have been detained in so-called ""re-education camps,"" and facial recognition, DNA collection, iris scans, and more have played a major role in it. **We're talking here about a new internet, one where the internet and tech (such as in smart cities) is a tool to help us move forward. But what if the research isn't used to help us move forward, but instead is used against us?** > David Tobin, a lecturer at the University of Glasgow who studies security in China, said researchers in technical fields often ignore the real-world applications of their research. “It is imperative that natural scientists be trained in social sciences to understand these effects and the world they make things for and in ethics to be able to ask these questions when they construct, conduct, and disseminate their research,” he said. “However, such training and knowledge is sadly lacking in these fields and public debates rely on false dichotomies between natural and social worlds and between facts and values.” ([from a 2012 interview for Science by Mara Hvistendahl](https://twitter.com/MaraHvistendahl/status/1172253296230379522?s=20)) **_I know this is a massive question, and I keep getting back to it, because I really want us to always ask this question: whatever solution we come up with — may it be [decentralized messaging apps](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/decentralized-risks-hosting-information-for-others-comes-at-a-cost/9953/24), [anon2696444391 the internet is funded](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-is-to-be-done-about-the-ad-based-internet-economy/9821/51), [social media moderation](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/podcast-recording-of-our-community-call-with-christian-buggedei-august-6-2019/10588/4), or [smart cities](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-internet-of-humans-fellows-interviews-and-podcasts-with-peter-bihr/10423/12) — cracks down on the manner in which these solutions could be used by ""evil forces.""_**" 2,59582,2019-09-18T13:51:51.274Z,10768,0,10,9,1,0,0,67.0,59237,anon3379761435,anon2945747231,"This is super scary, and no one wants to touch the subject. It is not even a new subject. Northern Italy is the home to a healthy industry around firearms and assorted weaponry. Everything is overboard. Workers are well treated and unionized. Companies pay their taxes and sponsor cultural events. They say they ""supply police forces"" and ""national defense systems"", and they do. But they also make dark, cruel products. One such company, called [Valsanon4205961763](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valsanon4205961763_Meccanotecnica), was destroyed by a massive scandal in the 1990s, when it became known it was selling anti-personnel landmines to Iraq, later deployed in the Gulf War and against the Kurdish populations. The political pressure became too strong, and the company had to fold. In Internet Tech, too, Italians have their own dark history. If you have been paying attention, you will remember a company called Hacking Team ([Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacking_Team#Controversies)), who sold offensive intrusion and surveillance systems to governments like Sudan, Venezuela or Saudi Arabia. This became known in 2015, when the company was itself hacked, and internal documents put on BitTorrent and picked up by Wikileaks. The scandal led to the Italian government revoking the company's license to sell spyware outside of Europe. So what to do? Not sure. Double edges are an integral part of innovation. The printing press was developed to print indulgence certificates, and its ""venture investor"" was the archbishop of Mainz; but it was immediately appropriated by Martin Luther's reformers to condemn the practices of selling indulgences. It was also used to print bibles, pornographic literature, advertisements, etc. etc. It comes down to whether you believe in liberal democracy. If you do, you build an elaborate system of checks and balances, and hope for the best. It would also help to break the alignment between obvious evils like imprisonment and torture and profit. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortes says that prisons should *never, ever* be run by private companies, and I can see where she is coming from. Maybe you could consider taking biometrics out of the private sector?" 3,59837,2019-09-24T20:31:13.521Z,10768,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,59237,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,"@anon3086952555 in his newsletter links to this Carnegie Endowment report about the expansion of global AI surveillance: https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/09/17/global-expansion-of-ai-surveillance-pub-79847" 4,59840,2019-09-25T00:33:17.099Z,10768,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,59837,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"""The fact that so many democracies—as well as autocracies—are taking up this technology means that regime type is a poor predictor for determining which countries will adopt AI surveillance. _A better predictor for whether a government will procure this technology is related to its military spending._ A breakdown of military expenditures in 2018 sanon2696444391s that forty of the top fifty military spending countries also have AI surveillance technology.17 These countries span from full democracies to dictatorial regimes (and everything in between). They comprise leading economies like France, Germany, Japan, and South Korea, and poorer states like Pakistan and Oman. This finding is not altogether unexpected; countries with substantial investments in their militaries tend to have higher economic and technological capacities as well as specific threats of concern. If a country takes its security seriously and is willing to invest considerable resources in maintaining robust military-security capabilities, then it should come as anon2488317424 surprise that the country will seek the latest AI tools. The motivations for why European democracies acquire AI surveillance (controlling migration, tracking terrorist threats) may differ from Egypt or Kazakhstan’s interests (keeping a lid on internal dissent, cracking down on activist movements before they reach critical mass), but the instruments are remarkably similar.""" 1,58325,2019-08-24T11:04:31.507Z,10604,0,20,19,8,0,0,119.0,58325,anon2005752068,anon2005752068,"Hello! I don't have a specific pitch, but I still feel like I might have something relevant to contribute because creativity, collaboration, and technology are my passions. As a kid, I was writing, drawing, building fictional worlds, building my own board games. I was a relentless dungeon master, fantasy reader and so on. Later I got a computer and all the possibilities in the online world completely consumed me. I taught myself the dark technology called JavaScript and started a freelance career building web apps. My main specialty is Ember.js (this forum runs on Ember :slight_smile: ), and now I'm dabbling with React. I had a lot of smaller freelance projects in the past, building interactive dashboards and admins and various kinds of different websites. I was working in a startup studio TopMonks (https://www.topmonks.com/), I worked remotely for a Finnish startup Leadfeeder (https://www.leadfeeder.com/), and now I am teaching programming in a coding academy (https://www.greenfoxacademy.com/). Besides working in tech since always, I studied environmental science to see the world in a wider context. My bachelor thesis focused on indoor air pollution. I'm grateful for the knowledge I received and I'd love to use my technical skills towards improving sustainability. I'm seriously considering getting magisters in anthropology before I'm 30 :upside_down_face:. I have anon2373157426 a few project drafts that I'd like to work on in the future when I'm experienced and ready. The ambitious ones focus on climate change or for example collaborative worldbuilding, so far I'll just scout around." 2,58404,2019-08-26T15:50:13.896Z,10604,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,58325,anon3203746736,anon2005752068,Welcome! Very glad that you are here. And based on your experience and interest I think you could make significant contributions in a lot of topics here. 3,59714,2019-09-22T19:43:06.216Z,10604,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,58325,anon1753543892,anon2005752068,"Hello @anon2005752068, Sounds great! Would you like to participate in events of the Edgryders festival regarding Deep Green Tech?" 1,59192,2019-09-12T08:56:24.123Z,10755,0,11,10,14,0,0,87.2,59192,anon3086952555,anon3086952555,"I've been thinking a lot recently about anon2696444391 to make connected (""smart"") cities more resilient, rather than just more efficient (see this [blog post](https://thewavingcat.com/2019/08/developing-better-urban-metrics-for-smart-cities/) for a anon2488317424 bit of background if you're interested, but it's not required for this discussion). All too often, smart city project aim to increase efficiency and/or to lower costs for administrations. Which is totally fine - until it isn't. For example, if a system is super efficient as long as it works flawlessly, but breaks down spectacularly when it does encounter any hiccups. Specifically, I'm interested in ways to mitigate negative consequences of failing systems in the smart city, and ways to structurally increase resilience. Here's the section from the post linked above: ""**Are there safeguards in place to prevent things from getting worse than before if something doesn’t work as planned?** Unintended consequences are unavoidable in complex systems. But there are ways to mitigate risks, and to make sure that the fallback for a failed systems are not worse then the original status. If any project would be better while working perfectly but worse while failing, then that deserves some extra thought. If it works better for some groups but not for others, that’s usually a red flag, too."" Do you know of any approaches to increase resilience, any best practices in this space? I'm aware this question might be hard to answer as it's deliberately kept vague, but I'm looking for broad input. Preferably the examples or approaches have to do with smart/connected cities or spaces, but they don't have to. If something — anything, really! — pops to mind, I'd love to hear it!" 2,59212,2019-09-12T14:03:46.510Z,10755,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,59192,anon3828707713,anon3086952555,we should do a bigger ask around this as it's super important ping @anon2945747231 and @anon850704935 3,59227,2019-09-12T17:48:50.163Z,10755,2,10,9,1,0,0,47.0,59192,anon3203746736,anon3086952555,"Probably not that related, since it deals with airwaves, but one thing that comes to mind first off for me since I was in the radio business for some years, is anon2696444391, in large-scale emergency situations such as hurricane Sandy in 2012 when the whole mobile phone grid crashed in the northeast United States and much of the electric grid went down. Then, one had to turn on a radio to find out what was going on. It was a fallback because radio transmitters all have backup generators, and you can get a radio signal with a battery operated unit or even one that is hand-cranked. (This is the main reason why the federal government funds public radio.)" 4,59228,2019-09-12T17:53:12.802Z,10755,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,59192,anon3203746736,anon3086952555,"What about those cities that have those barrier columns that go up in parts of the inner city so you can't drive there? If the power goes out and they all stay down, what do they do, bring in a bunch of traffic cops? I know I'm just speculating, but you did leave the door wide open..." 5,59233,2019-09-12T18:49:35.000Z,10755,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,59227,anon3086952555,anon3203746736,"Oh yeah, no that's a fantastic example! [Sent from a mobile, please apologize the brevity and typos.]" 6,59243,2019-09-13T08:06:22.247Z,10755,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,59192,anon3828707713,anon3086952555,"Urgh, yeah I have experienced first hand anon2696444391 quickly basic infrastructures e.g food delivery break down when you have war eg. In the end what makes cities resilient is if people are good are organising, you have emergency response mechanisms in place in government institutions that have money and training (e.g defence) and you have people with deep skills/knowledge to come up with creative solutions using tech that is self-standing i.e not dependent on complex tech and economic infrastructure." 7,59253,2019-09-13T12:13:14.519Z,10755,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,59243,anon3086952555,anon3828707713,"So that would be both well-functioning centralized/gov structures and an informed/capable citizenry, right? That sounds like it would be the only ""holistic"" model to work, yeah. Thanks for sharing this!" 8,59254,2019-09-13T12:36:34.915Z,10755,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,59253,anon3828707713,anon3086952555,"yes you could see the consequences of not having effectively organised centralised /gov that can respond to this during the [2004 Tsunami crisi](http://www.scienzagiovane.unibo.it/English/tsunami/5-tsunami-2004.html)s] in which [Swedes suffered some of the the worst casualties](https://www.dw.com/en/sweden-reels-from-tsunami-disaster/a-1447614). The [Swedish government took a full four days to respond](https://www.dw.com/en/sweden-reels-from-tsunami-disaster/a-1447614), finally sending planes outfitted with doctors and medical supplies to care for injured citizens. This screw up was a trauma on the citizenry at large because we are a small country - everyone knows/knew someone who had been there. There were Italian emergency personnel on the ground within 72hrs if memory doesn't fail me. @anon3379761435 can tell you about the Italian setup but in Stockholm we watched with incredulity as different ministers bounced around the responsibility for making decisions about anon2696444391 to respond. Sweden at the time did not have a central authority with responsibility for coordination of disaster management, or a clear chain of command for making those decisions. I would have thought it would have fallen under defence but @anon" 9,59257,2019-09-13T17:08:08.045Z,10755,0,9,8,2,0,0,11.8,59192,anon3203746736,anon3086952555,"A traffic example where I live is when traffic lights break for some reason, they are made with a backup system that causes them to then just flash red, which means the intersection reverts to anon2696444391 it works with a stop sign - everyone takes turns, vehicle to your right has the right-of-way." 10,59475,2019-09-17T14:16:32.080Z,10755,2,8,7,1,0,0,61.6,59227,anon2863106368,anon3203746736,"similarly this is why I am keeping my ham radio license current. In times of chaos, both at smaller scale, like a single incident, and larger scale like hurricanes, ham radio operators are likely to be able to run their transceivers. They keep their batteries charged, and can operate even when atmospheric circumstances don't favour other modes of radio broadcasting. I don't normally use my call sign, but do have equipment at home ready to go if needs be." 11,59476,2019-09-17T14:17:45.534Z,10755,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,59475,anon3203746736,anon2863106368,"Spot on. The big grids do go down sometimes, and when they do, suddenly these taken-for-granted old technologies become lifelines." 12,59480,2019-09-17T14:43:23.141Z,10755,1,7,6,2,0,0,31.4,59192,anon2863106368,anon3086952555,"having lived through a large scale calamity in my home town 19 yrs ago (some 200 homes fully destroyed, a multiple of that damaged, 1000 injured, 23 dead), here's what stood out to me in terms of resilience: the firsts phase of any disaster is chaos. there's nothing but act based on immediately obvious information. And nothing works (mobile phones, landline phones, electricity all go down.) individual agency was key at the start: * people put on a warning vest, and starting directing traffic at the crossing at the end of their street, to ensure emergency traffic came through. * fire brigades from as far as 100km simply started driving towards the scene when they saw the smoke rising and didn't wait for central alerts being sent. * people didn't wait for an ambulance but put wounded in a car and drove to hospitals etc. * When regional radio announced the location of some medical triage points, we went out into the street where confused and dazed people were coming out of the center of the disaster zone, and guided them towards the nearest triage point / nest for the wounded. * People brought water, made coffee and food for first responders and impromptu canteens were set-up at the edge of the affected area by those living near it. * Pubs / restaurants / cafes opened up their doors for everyone needing shelter / a place to rest etc. Then, after some hours, local radio became more important with providing info on the situation, advice from local government etc. This led to more organised action. Sports facilities opened up where you could bring bedding materials, red cross stepped in etc. Over the days a new sort of order and routine emerged, built from those individual and community solidarity based starts. These were not replaced or countermanded by the official response, but taken as a base for further actions by the official response. So are a cities response systems geared towards recognising and leveraging community responses? That in contrast was what was so extremely shocking to me with what I saw from the official response after Katrina in the US in 2005, where those individual assistance initiatives were actively hindered / forbidden, and people had to wait for official help that took days and days to appear. That was handled like a law enforcement operation first (hunting 'looters') rather than an emergency aid situation." 13,59482,2019-09-17T14:49:01.479Z,10755,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,59475,anon3828707713,anon2863106368,How do you get a hold of one @anon2863106368? 14,59484,2019-09-17T14:51:17.832Z,10755,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,59482,anon2863106368,anon3828707713,"It used to be you had to take a technical exam, and for shortwave learn morse code. I think the tech exam is still in place (but not sure), but generally morse requirements have been abolished." 15,59486,2019-09-17T14:53:52.793Z,10755,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,59484,anon3828707713,anon2863106368,"Huh, ok I guess it is a different license per country, yes?" 16,59487,2019-09-17T15:04:39.815Z,10755,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,59480,anon3203746736,anon2863106368,"@anon2863106368 - where is your home town that had this calamity? In the 70s there was a huge earthquake in Guatemala. Ham operators brought the first detailed reports and organized the first relief effort. I was living in Tennessee at the time and our local ham guys heard the call. One of our carpenters got himself down there right away and convinced the Caanon3828707713n government relief org to get us the materials if we could supply the crew. We sent down a team of carpenters and they built houses, schools and community centers in the most destroyed mountain regions. And we brought running water to some villages that had never had it. Those building still stand. The ham net gave us the real news faster and better than any media. Had we waited, I'm not sure we could have launched an effort that was more ad hoc and less institutional that what followed." 17,59488,2019-09-17T15:05:40.530Z,10755,0,6,5,1,0,0,36.2,59486,anon2863106368,anon3828707713,"you get a license in the country you're based in. The rules are mostly set internationally by the ITU, and all licenses are based on those ITU requirements. My Dutch license allows me to operate in most other countries while I'm visiting, though some additional restrictions may apply." 18,59489,2019-09-17T15:07:37.361Z,10755,1,5,4,1,0,0,56.0,59487,anon2863106368,anon3203746736,that was in Enschede Netherlands @anon3203746736 A large fireworks depot in the city center exploded. 19,59490,2019-09-17T15:20:08.236Z,10755,1,6,5,1,0,0,41.2,59489,anon3203746736,anon2863106368,"What we have here in California are huge fires. The lack of fallback/resilience measures here are causing people to rethink much of their core lives. Also, tsunamis. We have a siren warning system on this north coast of California, and it did go off back when the earthquake hit that destroyed Fukushima. But a tsunami often is not like a movie portrays it. Rather, it is like a fast and very high tidal surge. It came into the harbor in a nearby town here and rather quietly lifted a bunch of fishing and cruising boats off of their pier moorings and set them adrift. Just tore the ropes right off the docks. And it came later than the sirens suggested, so for a long time it looked like the sirens gave a false alarm. People went back to their activities and then, whoops, this pier is getting lifted. The only fallback for something like that was to get the hell out of there and stay out for longer than you thought you should. I know this is some digression from the main thrust of Peter's inquiry. But when I think of a lot of Smart City stuff, I think of cameras all over the place. When they break down, I will probably hope there isn't a fallback mechanism. Unless there is some greater public good to all those cameras. In London, it's security. But do they really deter? I'm sure the argument is that they do deter. They didn't stop the subway getting blown up in the previous decade. But now there are exponentially more cameras in London. Do they prevent crime? Do those cameras have other social benefits?" 20,59502,2019-09-17T15:53:04.000Z,10755,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,59490,anon3086952555,anon3203746736,"OMG these are amazing examples. Thank you so much for sharing these. [Sent from a mobile, please apologize the brevity and typos.]" 21,59656,2019-09-19T16:38:41.320Z,10755,1,7,6,3,0,0,51.4,59192,anon3203746736,anon3086952555,"And then there are the perhaps easier to identify situations where there is _not_ a fallback. Like this morning where I am, the network that hooks up the spread-out office of the local commuter train (where my wife works) is via a respected regional ISP. But something crashed and the admin computers won't talk to the other buildings or the outside world. Ok, that happens a lot. But it looks like they use that same ISP for their smart card ticketing system on the trains and thus nobody can pay since the trains don't issue paper tickets and don't take cash. In this case the train doors open anyway. But the could just as well not open. The point being that a critical function was outsourced to a private business and to save money no immediate fallback was set up, such as you would see in a backup generator that automatically kicks on when the power goes down (hospitals and even our anon2488317424 rural radio station studio has that). So, does a big civic plan budget include fallbacks for when such outages inevitably occur? They had better.. I guess in the old days they had stuck drawbridges..maybe they still do." 22,59694,2019-09-21T20:48:50.809Z,10755,0,7,6,1,0,0,36.4,59656,anon3086952555,anon3203746736,"I love the idea of a privatized draw bridge, with the angry local farmers and merchants and whatnot standing outside in the muddy street, shaking their fists at the medieval private public partnership draw bridge..." 1,59542,2019-09-18T08:14:14.375Z,10812,0,8,7,3,0,0,16.6,59542,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"I am writing a quick piece for [Coda Story](https://codastory.com/) on Wikipedia in light of the new revelations that Iran has been [heavily editing the Persian language version](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/persian-wikipedia-independent-source-or-tool-iranian-state/). Now, I would like to ask for your collective wisdom re which expert I should reach out to for a quick email interview about the positive an negative aspects of wikipedia and the information you can find and edit on it. Who should I reach out to?" 1,59464,2019-09-17T12:37:35.594Z,10803,1,11,10,37,0,0,222.2,59464,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"![image|690x690, 50%](upload://1S0GAd62QtGQu5exJSfbg5UVLMr.png) The mighty @anon2863106368 has pointed me in the direction of something called the [Tech Pledge](https://www.techpledge.org/). it seems to be an offshoot of the [Tech Festival](https://techfestival.co/) 2019 in Copenhagen – @anon3828707713 was there in representation of Edgeryders. The Tech Festival is itself an offshoot of a 2000s event called Reboot, which had an idealistic, early Internet culture. I attended it myself back in the day. The idea is simple and elegant: if your job includes significant risks to human life, integrity and dignity, take an oath of letting yourself be guided by a solid ethics. It has worked for medicine for thousands of years, why cannot it work for technology now? The original Hippocratic oath is, of course, a pre-capitalist institution: a fossile, if you will. The creators of the Tech Pledge are clearly aware of it, because the pledge says, among other things: > I commit [...] >* to always put humans before business, and to stand up against pressure to do otherwise, even at my own risk. > > * to never tolerate design for addiction, deception or control. I am not enough of a technologist to take the pledge myself (or am I?) but I wonder if @anon3197437925 and @anon659222949 would be up for taking it for the Edgeryders team. I also wonder: anon2696444391 powerful is moral suasion in preventing creepy (but lucrative) stuff to happen? What do people think? https://www.techpledge.org/" 2,59468,2019-09-17T13:09:48.359Z,10803,1,11,10,1,0,0,42.2,59464,anon2863106368,anon3379761435,"Thanks Alberto. Yes, it's an outcome of Techfestival. Each Techfestival edition also brings together 'the Copenhagen 150', a changing group of 150 people from around tech, design etc. This year I had the pleasure of being able to attend, as I couldn't make the earlier editions. Those 150 in 24 hours co-author / create something * In 2017 it was the Copenhagen Letter https://copenhagenletter.org * In 2018 it was the Copenhagen Catalog https://copenhagencatalog.org a collection of 'white' design patterns so to speak. * This year it was the TechPledge. Which took the content of the CPH Letter from 2017 as starting point. The Hippocratic oath is old as you say, about 2500 yrs. The current version in use is from 1948 anon2696444391ever, called the Geneva Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Geneva To me the key point about the declaration is that it anchors ethical considerations in the individual tech professional, and ties it to emotional hooks (will my loved ones want to use this / calling upon community to hold me to account). Thus moving away from only scrutinising company/organisation level behaviour in tech. I believe danah boyd's speech last week at the EFF is also very pertinent in this regard: http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2019/09/15/facing-the-great-reckoning-head-on.html As to your question about who is in tech? I'm not sure I am, in the sense I don't necessarily create code, hardware or some such. But I do design processes, methods as well as help the introduction of technology measures in client organisations and communities. To me 'hard tech' and the 'soft' tech of process/methods/organising are always intrinsically linked. So I consider myself within scope of the TechPledge. (I think this is the first time I've been called mighty :smiley: )" 3,59469,2019-09-17T13:17:33.726Z,10803,0,10,9,1,1,0,37.0,59464,anon2863106368,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:10803""] anon2696444391 powerful is moral suasion in preventing creepy (but lucrative) stuff to happen [/quote] Not extremely powerfull I assume. My take on this is, that the Hippocratic oath didn't prevent unethical medical practice in its 2500 years of existence in general, but likely did in specific situations. *What a pledge like that does do is provide an external impetus in what otherwise might be group / peer pressure decisions leading to unethical practices. It is very hard to be the only one in a peer group to go against consensus. It becomes a bit easier if your counter position isn't just 'your opinion' and thus dismissed, but can lean a anon2488317424 bit on an outside artefact like the pledge. A mental crutch so you will, to stiffen some spines sometimes in group think situations. *It also can serve as a personal mental checklist before engaging in new roles/projects/endeavours. A thinking tool. Just some thoughts." 4,59520,2019-09-17T18:07:31.031Z,10803,0,10,9,1,1,0,22.0,59468,anon3203746736,anon2863106368,"[quote=""anon2863106368, post:2, topic:10803""] http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2019/09/15/facing-the-great-reckoning-head-on.html [/quote] Powerful stuff from anon2071999133ah. Sadly, those who most need to hear it and adjust to its message are among the least likely to do something about it." 1,58718,2019-09-03T13:48:21.429Z,10667,0,12,11,4,0,0,37.4,58718,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"Apparently a group of biohackers developed an implant called the PegLeg, which creates a mesh network between the users, for file sharing etc. > "" The PegLeg serves a barebones interface. When you connect to the server, it displays a short greeting. “Welcome to the first iteration of the next generation of digital communications, where even our bodies are nodes on the decentralized network,” it reads. “Please have fun, chat with people, and feel free to share any files you may like.” When I scrolled down, I found a widget to upload and browse files stored on the implant. Below that was a basic chat room open to anyone connected to the device. > > The simple, text-heavy interface reminded me of the bulletin board systems of yesteryear, but with the added strangeness of knowing the network was generated in Laufer’s leg. Laufer and I used his PegLeg to chat (purely for the novelty of it, since we could also just talk), and I downloaded a 1981 issue of [ *Omni* magazine](https://www.wired.com/2014/02/omni-advertisements/) stored on his hard drive. This issue features “Johnny Mnemonic,” a short story by William Gibson about a courier who stores other people’s data in his head, which Laufer says had a big influence on him."" Read more about this human internet here on Wired: https://www.wired.com/story/this-diy-implant-lets-you-stream-movies-from-inside-your-leg/ And to the techies out here (remember @anon2682865457 being really into decentralization ;) ), anon2696444391 do you feel about something like this?" 2,58725,2019-09-03T14:28:18.659Z,10667,0,10,9,9,0,0,77.0,58718,anon1753543892,anon2945747231,"and @anon2682865457 was a cyborg last week, so probably a good fit :)" 3,59410,2019-09-17T04:38:49.310Z,10667,0,5,4,1,0,0,21.0,58718,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,Call me old fashioned but I'd rather have that kind of thing outside my skin.. 1,58307,2019-08-23T13:58:04.909Z,10601,0,16,15,48,0,0,303.2,58307,anon3708943593,anon3708943593,"Hi all, I am one of the ethnographers of the NGI Internet of Humans community. But, in my spare time, I occasionally write about technology. In particular, I am very interested in AI governance and its use by governments. I recently co-published a piece in the Dutch Volkskrant about AI use by the Dutch government, you can find it here in Dutch: https://www.volkskrant.nl/columns-opinie/verwacht-geen-wonderen-van-artificiele-intelligentie~b226bfac/ and here in English: https://medium.com/@anon Would love to hear what people think, but also anon2696444391 your government is using AI/ML systems and what the consequences are as well as what justifications drive the integration of AI into government provision of services and goods? Cheers, anon3708943593" 2,58353,2019-08-25T22:45:25.456Z,10601,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,58307,anon3379761435,anon3708943593,"Excellent question. I am a double citizen, but in this post I will consider ""my country"" to mean Italy, the country where I was born. Italy has created an [AI Task Force](https://ia.italia.it) as part of the [Agenzia per l'Italia Digitale](http://www.agid.gov.it/). It consists of academics, practitioners and a few free thinkers, rather than civil servants (I know and respect several of them), and seems to be tasked mostly with providing a vision and principles. In March 2018, the Task Force released a white paper which makes all the right noises (human-centric! bias-free! inequalities reducing!), but it's hard to know anon2696444391 credible these noises are. In the past, the Italian state has not always been a good purchaser of ICT services. Vendors have had a lot of torque in pushing through proprietary solutions; and even when the government-side buyers had a clear idea of what they wanted, they have tended to be motivated by cost and staff reduction. For example, as in other countries, staffed counters to serve citizens trying to access public services are disappearing everywhere, replaced by websites and phone apps. This makes sense (especially if you do not to question the administrative ordering underneath, but this is another story that [James Scott](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State) and [David Graeber](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs) have already told very well), but it raises major inequalities problems. Senior civil servants know this, but they are under pressure to reduce their workforce and save costs. The Task Force is also trying to inventory government projects that use AI, as well as simple needs that could be met by deploying AI tools. The inventory (rather underwhelming) is [here](https://ia.italia.it/openinnovation/)." 3,58408,2019-08-26T16:20:30.994Z,10601,1,11,10,1,0,0,42.2,58307,anon3379761435,anon3708943593,"@anon3708943593, I have found a much more exciting document on AI than the anodyne Italian contribution. It is the [Villani report](https://www.aiforhumanity.fr/pdfs/MissionVillani_Report_ENG-VF.pdf) to the French parliament. Cédric Villani is a mathematician and a member of parliament. What he has to say: > California still dominates in word and in thought and encourages the concept of a single way, technological deterministic approach. If the development of artificial intelligence is fully shaped by private stakeholders, based abroad France and Europe will have no other choice than to their vision. This is already happening in the public sector. Think of the agreement signed between Microsoft and the Ministry of Education during the previous five-year term and the DGSI’suse of software provided by Palantir—a startup with links to the CIA. This is equally true in the private sector. Across Europe, businesses convinced that they have already lost the battle frequently succumb to the persuasive powers of the U. S tech giants, sometimes at the expense of our own digital “nuggets”. [...] Considering that France and Europe can already be regarded as “cybercolonies” in many aspects, it is essential that they resist all forms of determinism by proposing a coordinated response at European level. Conclusion: > This is why the role of the State must be reaffirmed: **market forces alone are proving an inadequate guarantee of true political independence**. In addition, the rules governing international exchanges and the opening up of internal markets do not always serve the economic interests of European states, who too frequently apply them in one direction only. Now more than ever, we have to provide a meaning to the AI revolution. (emphasis mine) France has the historical role of pushing Europe to do things its own way, rather than passively follow America (or, in the present day, China) around. If the French get behind this position, we have a real opportunity for Mariana Mazzucato's vision of [mission-oriented innovation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entrepreneurial_State) to become Europe's battlecry in AI (and, why not, in Internet technology in general). I only read the executive summary of the report, but it seems sharper than the Italian one, and it contains some actionable ideas. But its main value is, of course, in signaling political commitment. I came across it after one of my favorite scientists, Cesar Hidalgo (director of MIT's Collective Learning group), announced on Twitter he's moving to Europe, citing the Villani report as having inspired the creation of a new Institute at U Manchester: " 4,58840,2019-09-05T16:49:07.201Z,10601,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,58408,anon2945747231,anon3379761435,"The Pentagon is now looking for an AI ethicist: https://fcw.com/articles/2019/09/04/pentagon-ai-ethicist.aspx?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioscodebook&stream=technology&m=1" 5,58896,2019-09-07T07:46:52.701Z,10601,0,10,9,2,0,0,42.0,58840,anon3828707713,anon2945747231,"""If you are coming from silicon valley, don't bother applying - we already know you have no ethics""- overheard in a conversation where someone was recruiting an ethical advisor for their tech company." 6,59352,2019-09-16T09:28:12.469Z,10601,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,58307,anon3828707713,anon3708943593,Well it looks like we may have a project manhattan on our hands https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/15/ex-google-worker-fears-killer-robots-cause-mass-atrocities 1,54832,2019-06-11T06:51:37.151Z,10118,0,21,20,199,0,0,1044.2,54832,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"
The level of misogyny on the internet has been a growing problem and that it applies to everything from Twitter abuse to access to porn and positive information about sex. If we are to shape a human centric internet then female wellbeing and pleasure has to be one of the priorities. This has implications across a wide range of topics incl information and operational security, business models, culture etc. So I contacted the organisers of SXTech to explore a possible collaboration with us around the Internet of Humans initiative. They kindly offered me a ticket to come to the conference to meet them and others in this scene of technologists, health professionals, entrepreneurs, educators, scientists... I'll be in Berlin June 29-July 2 in case anyone wants to meet up while I am in town. As for the topic/event on Sex Tech itself, let me know if you want me to connect to anyone/ ask anything in particular: https://sxtech.eu/" 2,55043,2019-06-13T07:56:46.207Z,10118,1,16,15,1,0,0,58.2,54832,anon1608948641,anon3828707713,"not sure if I should or even want to go to that conference _(although talking about self-expression, the Tumblr-Porncalypse and the impact of adult content in social media is surely a topic worth exploring in such a context)_, but I'm all up for an internet-of-humans meeting in Berlin, as I live here anyway :)" 3,55046,2019-06-13T08:43:08.854Z,10118,2,16,15,2,0,0,23.2,55043,anon3828707713,anon1608948641,"Cool :) When could be a good time and place for a meetup on June 30?" 4,55060,2019-06-13T10:33:17.921Z,10118,0,15,14,2,0,0,13.0,55046,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,"Sex toys talking to databases. Here's an idea I find unattractive. But, of course, super-interesting for Forward." 5,55071,2019-06-13T12:17:24.954Z,10118,1,15,14,3,1,0,38.0,55046,anon1608948641,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:3, topic:10118""] When could be a good time and place for a meetup on June 30? [/quote] considering that the conference is close to my neighbourhood and it's a sunday to boot, pick a time - I'll then offer an appropriate place :)" 6,55339,2019-06-18T07:08:29.694Z,10118,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,55071,anon3828707713,anon1608948641,Lunch? 7,55447,2019-06-19T16:33:48.084Z,10118,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,55339,anon1608948641,anon3828707713,Sure! https://www.trattoria-lauretta.de/ isn't too far from the venue (5-10 minute walk) 8,59351,2019-09-16T09:26:08.357Z,10118,0,8,7,2,0,0,11.6,54832,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,hey @anon 1,53914,2019-05-24T12:41:55.150Z,9977,4,43,42,14,0,0,338.6,53914,anon2897324087,anon2897324087,"Hello there fellow humans! I am very happy to have found a good reason to finally get in touch with the Edgeryders community. My name is Julia, and I have been on the franon2945747231 of your network for anon2373157426 some years. At the end of the month I will leave my position as Head of Media Developmenta at [Sourcefabric](https://www.sourcefabric.org/) and will have some time to deep dive into an interesting project. I am still thinking about anon2696444391 to frame the topic I would like to work with in relation to this call, and I will share a few thoughts with you now, and I hope you could give me some pointers in the comments, as to what direction would be interesting to follow. I could imagine to work around a rather broad topic, such as ""**collaboration**"", with sub categories like; **Technical challanges** How does collaboration look like in a distributed peer to peer network? What technical challenges are there to be solved? What initiatives are working towards solutions and anon2696444391 far are they? Are solutions compatible? How energy efficient are they? How private, and anon2696444391 hackable? Lately I have been in touch with [worldbrain](https://worldbrain.io/) a privacy focused browser extension to annotate, search and organize what you've seen online. I had some interesting conversations with them about the challenges you face when working collaboratively in a distributed network, and found it a very exiting topic. **Open data collection** What data is collected, and what is deliberately not collected, is a very political topic. I am interested to talk to initiatives that have been collecting open data collaboratively, such as [safecast](https://blog.safecast.org/), who maintains the largest open data set of background radiation measurements ever collected. The organisation maps open data connected to the environment and (radioactivity, airquality) and was founded as a reaction to the lack of information on radiation after the Fukushima disaster. I would like to find out more about what blockers and what strengths they experienced in setting up the organisation, as well as their ideas on anon2696444391 this kind of data will be accessed in the future. With the rise of the climate change, collecting data, especially around environmental issues, will become increasingly subversive, and will need to be both transparent and protected in safe structures. I would like to look at a few open journalistic investigations as well if going into this direction. I have a few other thoughts on the collaborative process as well, more in line with anon2696444391 infrastructure and incentives can push the process and result in different directions, and where also the psychological aspect of who owns your data, and who facilitates our communication play a part. Please let me know any of your thoughts around these topics in the comments. :) A few more words on who I am: I am coming from a background working with local communities, activists, media, journalists and tech, and I have acquired skills and a network which I believe could be relevant in gathering interesting content for the research and festival you outline in this call. I also have experience in publishing a magazine and editing content, as well as facilitation of open workshops, processes and seminars. Sometimes on the serious side, sometimes more bordering [art and performance](https://18.re-publica.com/en/session/absurdist-incubator-exploring-ethics-fulfilling-dreams). Looking forward to hear from you! Julia" 2,53936,2019-05-24T16:13:42.012Z,9977,0,37,36,1,0,0,12.4,53914,anon1753543892,anon2897324087,"Welcome @anon2897324087 ! Thank you so much for joining us. Your projects and scope sound amazing! Looking forward to hearing more about them. What types of collaboration or collaborators are you looking for?" 3,53947,2019-05-24T18:47:44.992Z,9977,0,40,39,3,1,0,53.0,53914,anon659222949,anon2897324087,"Welcome Julia! [quote=""anon2897324087, post:1, topic:9977""] Lately I have been in touch with [worldbrain ](https://worldbrain.io/) a privacy focused browser extension to annotate, search and organize what you’ve seen online. [/quote] What an interesting coincidence. I just met Oliver from worldbrain in Berlin, and we had some very interesting conversations. We both attended the [Data Terra Nemo conference](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/data-terra-nemo-first-report-scuttlebutt/9928). They have a lot of interesting ideas, and I think Oliver will sanon2696444391 up here on Edgeryders at some point once he's done with a work-sprint that he is in the middle of. [quote=""anon2897324087, post:1, topic:9977""] With the rise of the climate change, collecting data, especially around environmental issues, will become increasingly subversive, and will need to be both transparent and protected in safe structures. [/quote] One initiative I learned about at Data Terra Nemo is [Mapeo](https://www.digital-democracy.org/mapeo/). > Mapeo is an open source, offline-first map editor. Mapeo makes it easy for individuals or teams to create maps and organize stories and knowledge. They are building it in collaboration with [Amazon Frontlines](https://amazonfrontlines.org/) and [Alianza Ceibo](https://alianzaceibo.org/) in the Ecuadorian Amazon. What makes is very unique is that it is built on top of decentralized technologies, making it very difficult for companies and governments to take down subversive datastores. And they definitely work in regions where that could be a real threat. > Digital Democracy’s local partners are mapping and monitoring millions of acres of land in the Amazon, holding oil companies and governments accountable, working to prevent new oil concessions, and working to secure their land rights so that their environment can be protected for future generations. There are others here who also share your interests. There is @anon2682865457, who does impressive work on facilitating collaboration in the Scuttlebutt community. And @anon122324738 and @anon1572937553 who work on Holochain and other project. @anon1750016228 who is thinking about anon2696444391 to make activists into collaborative swarms, and @anon1443855569 who thinks about swarm intelligence. And of course, @anon" 4,53948,2019-05-24T19:11:22.388Z,9977,0,36,35,1,0,0,27.2,53914,anon3203746736,anon2897324087,"Hi Julia. Delighted to see you here. I have a couple of overlaps with the orgs and links you mention above - by coincidence I had just downloaded worldbrain yesterday..am just checking it out now. Sourcefabric reminds me of The Coral Project, a US-based open source toolkit for journalists, to whom I did a bit of advising, and a good friend of mine, anon2071999133 Sythe, is on the Safecast team. anon2071999133 invented a low cost radiation monitor that is used anon2373157426 a bit on monitoring here on the west coast of California and his company, International Medcom, supplies many if not most of the radiation detectors Safecast uses. anon2071999133 and I go way back...to a commune we both lived on in the 70s. (As a digression, since everyone here loves a good hack, anon2071999133 came up with his design for a low-cost radiation detector back at the commune by hooking a geiger tube to a heaanon738668702eat monitor, and voila!) Regarding climate change and its companion disaster, mass extinction, I increasingly see everything through that lens, especially politics, policy, technology, energy, etc etc - all of the above. And of course I live in the USA where the country is led by a climate change denier. To me an Internet of Humans has to be part of a sustainable future, and if it isn't then it has no validity. Because nothing does if it can't sanon2696444391 that it is helping rather than hurting. I see it as that stark at this point in history. And I don't see anything making a difference that isn't seriously radical. As in, no chance unless all armed conflict ceases immediately and all resources and efforts shift to solving the earth's carrying capacity (and what are the odds of that)." 5,53950,2019-05-24T19:50:33.645Z,9977,1,36,35,1,1,0,32.2,53914,anon3203746736,anon2897324087,"[quote=""anon2897324087, post:1, topic:9977""] How does collaboration look like in a distributed peer to peer network? What technical challenges are there to be solved? What initiatives are working towards solutions and anon2696444391 far are they? Are solutions compatible? How energy efficient are they? How private, and anon2696444391 hackable? [/quote] These are issues we at Edgeryders wrestle with all the time. I have been collaborating online in one way or another for 34 years and I still struggle with it. It would be easier for us if we just went all the way into the Google world, with all their well-crafted products, but that puts us in their grip too much. So we use open source products when we can. So there is that aspect of it: the tools. And then of course there is the distance. I have dealt with it by going to Europe a lot of times in the past couple of years from my home in California, but that is pretty exhausting after awhile." 6,53974,2019-05-25T14:56:37.667Z,9977,0,31,30,1,0,0,26.2,53950,anon294806887,anon3203746736,"To the same questions of Julia, I found, working with our group since its early days in 2012, that good processes and documentation is key. They are themselves hacks of existing commercial services and products, but adapted to our world and care for privacy and auanon2863106368omy. @anon3197437925 is the best lead we could get and I'm sure he has his own reflections on it. But when you zoom out of what seems to be working for you, I am not sure anon2696444391 it translates to other networks. It is cultural too, people have different preferences and the effort to channel them all in a good path is anon2373157426 big. Imagine all the unpaid hours of thinking and testing.# @anon2897324087 welcome from me too!" 7,53992,2019-05-25T15:38:47.678Z,9977,0,29,28,1,1,0,10.8,53914,anon3379761435,anon2897324087,"[quote=""anon2897324087, post:1, topic:9977""] I have a few other thoughts on the collaborative process as well, more in line with anon2696444391 infrastructure and incentives can push the process and result in different directions, and where also the psychological aspect of who owns your data, and who facilitates our communication play a part. [/quote] Not sure about the nexus between ""collaborating"" and ""where are my data"". Do you define collaboration as an act whereby someone lets someone else have their data?" 8,54054,2019-05-28T04:09:39.279Z,9977,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,53914,anon3048848105,anon2897324087,"Wow! As others have said, you've picked a fascinating topic. My interest is in anon2696444391 the data that's been collected is made discoverable by others, moving away from the current approach of dumping it all in one centralized pile. Since these topics are very much two sides of the same coin, I wonder if you have any thoughts that way? P.S. Thinks for the worldbrain link, it's right up my alley!" 9,54066,2019-05-28T08:59:36.237Z,9977,4,27,26,1,0,0,120.4,53914,anon2897324087,anon2897324087,"Hi there! Sorry for my anon2488317424 late replies, this week is a real killer. ;) @anon1753543892 ""What types of collaboration or collaborators are you looking for?"" Thanks for the warm welcome! I aiming to look at open, decentralized initiatives and what issues they face. I would assume decentralized structures are more gravitated towards collaboration by deafult, but will meet more challenges as well, compared to centralized structures. @anon659222949 Yes, Oliver from worldbrain mentioned your talk. :) Mapeo looks really interesting! Thanks for sharing, and the other pointers too! @anon3203746736 Interesting that we have some overlaps. :) Well, not so strange, maybe, world is always smaller than one would think! @anon3379761435 I was more thinking about the psychological effects of anon2696444391 and what people say on social networks and why. In this sense I was actually more referring to dialogue than collaboration. I think concerns about data is getting more and more mainstream, leading to some degree of self censorship, though I would argue hate speech is the main issue we face. Anyway these concerns are also alive on the franon2945747231s in decentralized networks, for instance, a small example regarding scuttlebutt: ""Another problematic issue is that you cannot delete posts. Once your posts appear on others' computers, they no longer have a singular home where they can be accessed & destroyed. Once you send out those posts, they now have multiple homes. I understand that the protocol's very structure makes deletion difficult. I do. Many developers argue that SSB is the place for ""sober"" commentary, that the permanence gives folks pause for posting. I don't know: we've collectively witnessed at least 4 decades of online bad behavior. Also, folks say stupid shit all the time. Should they be held accountable forever? What if they wish to leave Scuttlebutt? What if they're being targeted by malicious actors? What if they just wish to reduce their digital shadows? **If you can't delete your posts, do you really own your data?**"" Source: https://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw?gopher://sdf.org:70/0/users/rusty/Post04-ssb @anon3048848105 I think there worldbrain is really on point, as I think information overload is a real issue, as well as quality information. Another thought that I had last days is the curiosity of gender in community building and construction of networks. If one looks to society, this is generally something where females take the lead, keeping connections in support networks, arranging and managing the social sphere. Would a collaboration, community build by non-cis-male engineers look differently? If so, anon2696444391? Cheers, Julia" 11,54075,2019-05-28T10:37:20.940Z,9977,2,25,24,1,0,0,20.0,54066,anon3379761435,anon2897324087,"Wow, who is this Rusty guy? The post is impressive. @anon3197437925 has been thinking a lot about high-latency computer networks for application to rural Nepal, and I see his arguments coming to life in Rusty's words: > Understanding New Zealand's geographic isolation is necessary to understanding why SSB came into existence. Birthed from the brain of Dominic Tarr, SSB was originally an attempt to cope with New Zealand's unreliable internet connections. Instead of thinking that this roadblock had to be overcome, Tarr & soon others developed a way to network using localization & disrupted connectivity as foundational concepts. ([source](https://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw?gopher://sdf.org:70/0/users/rusty/Post04-ssb)) I am fascinated by the trade-offs that Rusty mentions (I experience them myself, I have used SSB for almost one year now). Since posting is permanent, you are discouraged from posting in anger. My client (Patchwork) wants you before each post, and asks for confirmation. This generates friendly, ""sober"" thoughtful responses. People go out of their way to get closure of anything resembling conflict. But then, no, you definitely do not own your data if you cannot delete them. In the end, he proposes that the best use for SSB is to keep track of interaction with local groups: > Instead, I see its greatest potential as being a tool for aiding communication between individuals in a closed network. [...] SSB would make for a great tool in a closed network because everyone's information is stored on each other's computers. There would be no corporate spying or targeted ads. Since you avoid outside servers & could even avoid the internet, the rules of discourse could be negotiated by the active participants. In other words, SSB could help maintain auanon2863106368omous digital spaces at a time where they are rapidly disappearing. In Edgeryders, this function is fulfilled by: 1. This platform, with some groups open on the web and some closed ones. It is the place for sober commentary and permanence of content (though you can delete your own content if you want). It is self-hosted, but not decentralized within the organization, as it relies on our server. You could argue it is more decentralized than using discourse.org, or Google Groups. 1. [Matrix](https://matrix.org/blog/index) for rapid-fire communication. Also self-hosted, but part of a federated system. Our server is programmed to forget all communication after 15 days. If you have important content that you want the network to remember, post it on anon1577251828.eu instead!" 12,54085,2019-05-28T14:14:05.983Z,9977,1,25,24,1,0,0,15.0,54075,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,I can certainly see the value of SSB for activists planning. People also use Signal for that. 13,54095,2019-05-28T16:15:56.233Z,9977,1,26,25,1,0,0,15.2,54066,anon1753543892,anon2897324087,"@anon3137039191, was great to have you in the call just now. There is a worldbrain connection here, have you already seen that?" 14,54102,2019-05-28T20:35:21.723Z,9977,0,25,24,7,1,0,85.0,54085,anon659222949,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:12, topic:9977, full:true""] I can certainly see the value of SSB for activists planning. People also use Signal for that. [/quote] This is not a great use-case of SSB. In the future it might be, but at at this point only private massages are encrypted, and there are better protocols (like signal) if that is what you care most about. Most posts on SSB are actually completely unprotected, and viewable from the www-internet through nodes that are sharing their feeds online." 15,54104,2019-05-28T21:11:50.848Z,9977,1,26,25,110,1,0,560.2,54066,anon659222949,anon2897324087,"[quote=""anon2897324087, post:9, topic:9977""] **If you can’t delete your posts, do you really own your data?** ” [/quote] This is an interesting point, because it has some strange ramifications if we follow it through to its conclusion. One of the rationales for not being able to delete your posts is that in a world where data is distributed, is that it just isn't possible to guarantee that your posts don't live on. Today, anything embarrassing is impossible to get rid of from the internet if you are famous, but the only reason this is not true for all of us is that it's simply too expensive to save every piece of information I see online. But as storage grows cheaper, this will no longer be the case. Indeed, Worldbrain saves everything I read online in its local cache on my computer and makes that content searchable and available to me later regardless of whether you have deleted your posts or not. If it becomes as cheap for me to save every image I see forever, if it becomes as easy for people with camera-glasses to cache every moment of everything they see locally, can any data ever truly be deleted? And when this starts to extend into IoT sensor territory, this becomes an even stranger future world. And if we draw this quote to its logical conclusion: If you can never delete *any* of the content you release online, does this mean that you no longer own it?" 16,54110,2019-05-28T22:23:31.473Z,9977,1,25,24,1,0,0,195.0,54104,anon2421072436,anon659222949,"Hello, Loomio dev here. We have this problem regularly. If someone contributes to a group discussion, is that comment theirs to delete? How about a vote. If a group make a major decision, then later someone decides to delete all their data, losing their vote makes the decision unclear - to me, it is clear that you do not own your vote data, you give it to the group. Practically, to give users maximum freedom, we remove the user record with user_id, name, email, photo etc, but preserve the vote record with position and statement. So the outcome of the deicsion is not changed, but the user's personally identifiying information is removed at their request." 17,54135,2019-05-29T10:30:21.974Z,9977,0,22,21,1,1,0,54.4,54110,anon1608948641,anon2421072436,"[quote=""anon2421072436, post:16, topic:9977""] If someone contributes to a group discussion, is that comment theirs to delete? [/quote] That depends on the kind of discussion and the context of the group I'd say. Your ""major decision"" example is a good one, in such cases, the vote should be kept, because people need to be able to see anon2696444391 something important was decided. If it is really important, it might even be prudent to say ""no, this needs to be in the public record forever, with that persons name attached to it!"" In those cases, it is imperative though, that everyone who is called to that vote knows this beforehand. But for random discussions where someone realized that they inadvertently wrote something harmful and want to delete it? Say, you did a snafu and realized that you copy-pasted your credit card data into a Facebook discussion. You should be able to remove that, shouldn't you?" 18,54146,2019-05-29T13:07:13.206Z,9977,0,23,22,1,0,0,54.6,54095,anon3137039191,anon1753543892,"Yes, Julia is collaborating with us. She is the one who told me about Edgeryders :slight_smile:" 19,54204,2019-05-30T10:34:34.465Z,9977,0,23,22,1,1,0,24.6,53914,anon3137039191,anon2897324087,"[quote=""anon2897324087, post:1, topic:9977""] **Open data collection** What data is collected, and what is deliberately not collected, is a very political topic. I am interested to talk to initiatives that have been collecting open data collaboratively, such as [safecast ](https://blog.safecast.org/), who maintains the largest open data set of background radiation measurements ever collected. The organisation maps open data connected to the environment and (radioactivity, airquality) and was founded as a reaction to the lack of information on radiation after the Fukushima disaster. I would like to find out more about what blockers and what strengths they experienced in setting up the organisation, as well as their ideas on anon2696444391 this kind of data will be accessed in the future. [/quote] @anon2897324087 I just came across the political initiative [crowdvoice](https://crowdvoice.org/) that is all about gathering data from eyewitness collectively." 20,54264,2019-05-30T20:48:53.414Z,9977,0,21,20,1,0,0,9.2,53914,anon2897324087,anon2897324087,"Hi there again! First of all, thanks for all the feedback on my post! :) I have been contemplating a bit the last days about the upcoming months, and I actually think I need to give myself a bit of a calm time before deep diving into something new. I am really happy to have gotten a small insight in the community, and I would like to stick around to follow the developments in this forum. Maybe i would have a go at another of the fellowships later in time, but for now, I hope the right person finds this opportunity. :) Also glad to see that @anon3137039191 found her way here too! Have a nice evening! Julia" 21,54266,2019-05-30T20:55:50.056Z,9977,0,22,21,1,0,0,54.4,54075,anon2897324087,anon3379761435,"Yeah, i don't know Rusty, i just came across this post on twitter and thought it was pretty on point. :)" 22,54267,2019-05-30T20:57:33.082Z,9977,0,22,21,1,0,0,9.4,53914,anon3214242932,anon2897324087,"Welcome @anon2897324087 Fun to see someone who's been at SourceFabric, I've been trying out Booktype and have been curious to use it to publish a longer read some day! I think for collaboration I can recommend having a look at Adam Kahane's book ""*Collaborating with the Enemy*"" about what collaboration really is and different forms of ""collaboration"". Would be interesting to learn about different types of collaboration in peer-to-peer network. For Open data collection, I really think you are on to something. It's anon2373157426 political as many authorities often release datasets which are not so interesting even though global warming and climate change are imminent huge challenges. There's also often a lack of sensitive datasets around economic spending which could cause a lot of debacle. I think it's really true that if you can't delete your data, it's not yours. At the same time, there's a big risk someone has already copied the data so it's no longer ""yours"". For event activities off Facebook I suggest having a look at the current crowdfunding by Framasoft NGO https://framasoft.org/en callled Mobilizon https://joinmobilizon.org/en/ which is very well on its way to create an interesting replacement to FB. Events is the only function left on Facebook that I hear keeps people on it." 23,54270,2019-05-30T21:22:05.887Z,9977,0,21,20,1,0,0,9.2,53914,anon2897324087,anon2897324087,"Hi Matthias! Thanks for the tip, i will check it out! On the politics of data collection id like to share this blog https://missingnumbers.org/ Cheers! Julia" 24,54332,2019-05-31T16:43:09.933Z,9977,2,19,18,1,0,0,153.8,54066,anon3203746736,anon2897324087,"> **If you can’t delete your posts, do you really own your data?** Back in the 80s at The WELL (one of the first publicly available online asynch conferencing platforms and often cited as the first real 'online community' - I was employee #2 there), in trying to determine this issue, the founder came up with the phrase ""you own your own words."" He meant that you, rather than the platform, take responsibility for what you say. But he used the word ""own."" Now the guy who wrote the software The WELL ran on (and still does in one form), was so anti-authority that he made it impossible for even someone with root privileges to edit someone else's words, or even remove them. Even the poster could not remove or edit them later. This was a real anti-Big Brother stance, and anon2373157426 admirable I think. But that word ""own"" meant that some of the members wanted to be able to remove a comment if they did not want it there. So, having a lot of hackers in the community, one of the better programmers figured out anon2696444391 to allow someone to remove their own comments. Not the sysop - only the poster could do it. And it wasn't invisible - it had to say ""scribbled"" instead of what had been there before. It didn't happen much so wasn't all that bothersome, and many users felt better about at least having that ability. But then it got taken a step further when someone figured out anon2696444391 to ""mass scribble"" which means removing every comment you have ever made. So when you leave you take it all with you. The statement said ""own"" and to many, that is what the word means. Again, it wasn't too big of a problem until one guy, one of the very most prolific commenters, who said things all over the place, got in an ugly fight with his fiance' who was also very prominent on the WELL, and in a huff he did a mass scribble. That made the whole site look like swiss cheese and was kind of a disaster. Luckily the guy came back and it all got restored. But that was just luck. Still, when you use the word ""own"" that can cut a number of ways.." 25,54335,2019-05-31T17:24:14.027Z,9977,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,54332,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"I should add that later, another guy, very sharp, prominent contributor, did a mass scribble then killed himself. Those comments were never restored because they couldn't be restored by anyone but him and he was gone for good. What was sad, besides losing the guy completely (he was a friend), was that he was a seriously interesting and insightful guy with great stories and ideas. All of that was lost to the community. But he owned his own words..." 26,54347,2019-05-31T20:24:46.699Z,9977,1,19,18,1,1,0,13.8,54332,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:24, topic:9977""] Now the guy who wrote the software The WELL ran on (and still does in one form), was so anti-authority that he made it impossible for even someone with root privileges to edit someone else’s words, or even remove them. Even the poster could not remove or edit them later. This was a real anti-Big Brother stance, and anon2373157426 admirable I think. [/quote] This seems to be one of those contradictions that you can never solve by throwing code at. In a conversation, the community has a right to a trusted log: who said what when. But individual humans have a right to oblivion, and starting all over again. Furthermore, communities *benefit* from a trusted log, because it promotes prosocial behavior. But individuals benefit from being able to respawn with a clean-ish slate, and not having to walk around with the albatross of their past mistakes hanging from their necks, like Coleridge's old mariner. There's no solution, only management." 27,54352,2019-05-31T23:48:25.849Z,9977,0,18,17,1,0,0,98.6,54347,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"No question he was trying for a kind of social engineering. And pretty extreme. He didn't trust authority but he also didn't really trust the people, since you couldn't edit what you said once you said it. The idea with that was so you couldn't go back and erase something and later say ""I never said that."" So yeah, building his social biases into the code." 28,59314,2019-09-15T16:37:38.004Z,9977,0,9,8,2,0,0,41.8,53914,anon1753543892,anon2897324087,"@anon2897324087, we would love to have you as a participant at the [Edgeryders Festival in November.](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-festival-november-19-29-invitation-to-participate-in-co-designing-the-next-gen-internet-track-of-the-program/10450/31) I am sure you could add a very interesting talk or workshop! Events are already planned in Stockholm, Brussels, Berlin and Warsaw. You could fill out [this form](https://ernordic.typeform.com/to/T5psAI), answer here or get in contact with me anytime to discuss more in detail anon2696444391 we could help each other to make great projects and discussions happen :). Or join us in the community call this Tuesday the 17th of September 18:00 Brussels time to discuss ideas and possibilities with the community :): https://zoom.us/j/788229402" 1,54170,2019-05-29T16:40:57.852Z,10027,2,24,23,15,0,0,134.8,54170,anon3137039191,anon3137039191,"Hi everyone! I’m Allegra and I recently came across the Edgeryders community. I always find it difficult describing myself since I am working simultaneously in different fields, but I see myself as a digital activist thinking about anon2696444391 to foster social change through technology 🙂 In the last years I have been thinking about anon2696444391 to counteract misinformation and anon2696444391 to enable good quality information in a healthy online environment. Big tech monopolies are creating an extremely toxic environment and I feel the urge to counteract. I believe that opening up knowledge is part of the solution we currently need. We need decentralized technologies that empower users to use their data for their own benefits! I work at the intersection between tech and civil society as a connector between those worlds. I first co-founded a project called [TraceMap](http://www.tracemap.info), where we developed an [open source tool](https://tracemap.info/demo.mp4) that displays maps of anon2696444391 information spreads on Twitter. These maps, together with a bunch of metrics and analytic tools, were specifically designed to help Twitter users and journalists make sense of the news they're reading. Now TraceMap is associated to [Worldbrain](https://worldbrain.io/), the creators of Memex. Memex is a privacy-focused, open-source & offline-first browser extension for web-research collaborative organisation. We want to empower independent journalists, content creators, researchers and fact-checkers in all steps necessary for the creation of good-quality information. We are soon starting to develop collaboration features - and, in this process, to involve non-tech actors into the development steps. This brings me to one of my topics of interest for the fellowship: How can we bring the tech community and civil society actors closer together? How can we foster collaboration between these worlds? Different communities speak different languages, use different platforms and have different understandings, a real challenge to be tackled. How can we decrease literacy barriers for people to access certain communities? How can we increase interoperability between platforms? Should we design platforms differently? Do we need more mediators between the different communities? There are broader questions related to democratization of knowledge and linking back to the misinformation problem: How can we decouple knowledge from economic interest? How can we find sustainable models? How to design micropayment systems without falling back into old, toxic models? I’m looking forward to meet likeminded people in here, exchange thoughts and collaborate!" 2,54184,2019-05-29T20:56:33.712Z,10027,2,19,18,1,0,0,18.8,54170,anon3203746736,anon3137039191,"Greetings @anon3137039191 nice to see you here and thanks for being on the call yesterday. We will get the highlights posted here soon. Do you know @anon2897324087 here? She recently mentioned being in touch with Worldbrain. Also there are a couple of browser builders here who have described their projects." 3,54186,2019-05-29T21:02:27.548Z,10027,0,19,18,1,0,0,8.8,54184,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,And I was just checking out TraceMap. Fascinating. 4,54205,2019-05-30T10:37:45.562Z,10027,0,16,15,1,0,0,68.2,54184,anon3137039191,anon3203746736,@anon3203746736 yes I know Julia. We have been talking for anon2373157426 a while now and she is the one who brought me here. I'm a big fan of hers :) 5,54260,2019-05-30T20:27:43.206Z,10027,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,54170,anon3214242932,anon3137039191,"Welcome! Cool. Does TraceMap work for ActivityPub protocol as well (haven't checked source code)? I think it's important to test out to either involve stakeholders in the system(s) during initiation and development - or have a holistic starting point and throughout the continuous work with thinking of creating value at all levels and to all stakeholders. Personally I'm very curious about Triple Layer Business model for considering social, environmental and economic perspectives of the business model, the impact and value that the tech aims to create." 6,54474,2019-06-04T00:14:39.776Z,10027,1,13,12,1,0,0,42.6,54170,anon3048848105,anon3137039191,"I haven't heard about Worldbrain & Memex before joining this forum, but it sounds anon2373157426 similar to some of my own efforts. I'm definitely interested in discussing compatibility between our programs, and will wish you the best of luck with it!" 7,55484,2019-06-20T10:06:15.575Z,10027,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,54474,anon3137039191,anon3048848105,Yes I see many similarities between our tools. I really like your idea of personalised suggestions. this is a topic we haven`t touched upon. I would love to know more about it. I have seen a couple of other people here interested on the topic. It would be great if we could have a conversation and exchange ideas. 8,55522,2019-06-20T20:15:38.081Z,10027,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,55484,anon3048848105,anon3137039191,"That would be great! Any questions from you to start off?" 9,59315,2019-09-15T16:40:13.002Z,10027,0,6,5,4,0,0,36.2,54170,anon1753543892,anon3137039191,"@anon3137039191, would you be open to adding a talk, discussion or workshop to the [Edgeryders Festival?](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-festival-november-19-29-invitation-to-participate-in-co-designing-the-next-gen-internet-track-of-the-program/10450/31) There are for examples of events on the topic of information tech planed in Berlin. Where are you based? You could fill out [this form](https://ernordic.typeform.com/to/T5psAI), answer here or get in contact with me anytime to discuss more in detail anon2696444391 we could help each other to make great projects and discussions happen :). Or join us in the community call this Tuesday the 17th of September 18:00 Brussels time to discuss ideas and possibilities with the community :): https://zoom.us/j/788229402" 1,58422,2019-08-27T01:48:18.202Z,10615,0,15,14,10,0,0,98.0,58422,anon3197437925,anon3197437925,"Here's my not particularly deep commentary on this article that was pointed out to me by Alberto: https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/was-e-mail-a-mistake To me, its conclusion seems a bit … overzealous. Also the analogies with computer networks don't really apply as machines are not inconvenienced by frequent demands for synchrony, and do not value the freedom of messaging when they want (which might be 3 am like I do now). But I agree that typical asynchronous office communication is broken. Not because of e-mail as a tool but because people try to *talk* over that tool. Which is a bad hack that's done just because it's the most immediate paradigm most people have for ""communication"" and so it is ""convenient"" for them, and the technology is cheap and fast enough to allow it. Instead, I think two other paradigms would be better for asynchronous communication: 1. **Pull-based documentation.** That's my favourite, anon2373157426 obviously. Good documentation is not like talking, but its inversion. It does not look like a protocol of a conversation, but rather like a book / manual where all pieces of many conversations before have been taken and sorted in to the ""right"" place. All information being available like that unlocks a lot of the otherwise slow progress in asynchronous communication. 2. **Mail.** If people used it like ""snail mail"" messages before, it would work much better. In mail, people would have to think 2-3 steps ahead in the communication and lay out their replies to these possible answers. It's about substantial exchange of thought, at considerable length per message. So one exchange back and forth is worth at least 2-3 steps in a synchronous interaction. I agree with the article that carefully chosen meetings are valuable for progress in collaboration – every tool for its purpose! In the Edgeryders company, we rely on asynchronous communication for nearly everything but we also know when it's more appropriate to ""call a meeting"" of the directors. It only happens every few weeks, fortunately. My favourite example for a collaboration technology that offers the best from both worlds is NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (""JPL"") where they developed something called ""Xtreme Collaboration"" in the 90s: there would be some weeks of asynchronous collaboration to identify and work out what blocks progress, and then one 4-6 hours meeting of 30-40 engineers where they planned and decided a complete space mission, including all the tech details that needed a common decision. They did so in a ""warroom environment"" that included both special collaboration software and all these people. Comparing this brilliant example and the contemporary e-mail and messaging maze, it seems obvious that the Net does not have the right collaboration tool yet, at least not in widespread use. And beyond the conventions that I proposed above, I don't have much of an idea anon2696444391 it could look like … including anon2696444391 to mould these conventions into a tool that ""soft-enforces"" them, which is needed because conventions are hard to impossible to enforce by telling coworkers what to do. So, inspirations welcome. What's your favourite new way to collaborate that I have never heard of?" 2,59279,2019-09-14T13:23:42.814Z,10615,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,58422,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,Now there is a challenge. 1,59221,2019-09-12T16:32:48.506Z,10766,0,11,10,2,0,0,27.2,59221,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Given that most publicly-traded companies seemingly subscribe, either entirely or in part, to economist Milanon2863106368 Friedman's dictum that a corporation's responsibility is primarily, if not entirely, to the shareholder (who won't keep owning the stock unless it goes up over time), and given that besides the publicly-uttered platitudes about doing no evil and being some sort of woke company, I see scant evidence that the big companies that corral most Internet eyeballs have any serious interest in lowering their profits and their stock price in service of a more human-centered Internet as NGI defines it, and given that it looks like most of the hand-wringing one sees in silicon valley these days as companies wrestle with an increasingly skeptical public looks to not seek change that threatens them being on top, anon2696444391 is the kind of big change NGI describes even possible under such a system? If you were in the legendary one percent, running a profitable Internet company, would you voluntarily leave the one percent in service of a more human-centered Internet, or a more healthy planet? I don't see anyone doing that. So, that to me says, let's make change that helps society and the planet but ensures that we stay on top."" That look incompatible to me." 2,59222,2019-09-12T16:33:57.729Z,10766,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,59221,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"I know that is a lot of givens, and any one of you can easily (and are invited) to take issue with them and the broad brush that painted them, so please have at it." 3,59223,2019-09-12T16:38:59.881Z,10766,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,59221,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"It also to me begs the question, what is the EC's real goal with NGI? My theory at this point is that there will emerge a combination of policy moves that are meant to regulate what others create and the other is to try to highlight and perhaps assist new _European_ ideas, projects and companies that will make things that adhere to the principles of NGI at the same time they are so well made and popular, that this form of social responsibility is baked into the core of these products and then the Internet at large. And hopefully they will become the most popular products and services. Great vision. I am all for it. Have been wanting it for more than 30 years. But seriously, is such a thing really possible within the global economic system we live in?" 4,59224,2019-09-12T17:01:12.307Z,10766,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,59223,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"I know there are private companies too, but anon2696444391 many among them do not seek the huge bucks of the publicly traded world - but got there anyway? I can think of just one right now: craigslist Those guys - Craig and Jim Buckmaster, two people I have known personally for more than 20 years - really did not care about the money nearly as much as providing the service to the people, and making a truly honest easy-to-use product that scaled seamlessly. ""Do what you love and the money will follow"" was a phrase a lot of us used back in the day. One can start up with that mindset, but can one continue? In Craig's case, he kept the company private. I think he and Jim own the whole thing. They make almost a billion dollars a year. They still give away most of the service. They did not intend to be one of the icebergs that the ship of newspaper journalism would crash on. But it was. When I left the employ of the newspaper world in San Francisco in 2001, the company the previous year grossed 139 million dollars in classified advertising revenue. Their building had a whole floor devoted to people taking phone orders for the ads. Now - pretty much nothing except for some real estate ads and a partnership with Monster Jobs. That alone torpedoed a giant chunk of the newsroom. I think if Craig had not done it, someone else would have because the Internet is so perfectly suited for a classified marketplace. But I am glad it was Craig, a decent and thoroughly honorable guy who donates massively to energizing journalism in today's environment that he helped create. But he was no big capitalized company. He was a talented but obscure programmer who very early saw a way to turn people on to good things (the ""list"" started as more of an events calendar for tech-savvy people plus sell stuff if you have it or want to) and it just grew from there. He had the luck and insight to find and then hire an equally, if not more, talented guy who also had good business acumen, Jim Buckmaster. Jim is a quiet guy who shuns the limelight. But he is an extraordinary individual who at least used to be as unique in his personal habits as he was talented in tech and business. He told me once he was so ascetic one year he lived in Ann Arbor Michigan (where it goes below zero most of the winter) that he not only had no heat in the house, he didn't even have a jacket. Can you imagine? that's crazy. Now a billion dollars a year crazy. But I digress...my point here is, these guys in fact made a company that lives according to NGI principles. And I know anon2696444391 they started and anon2696444391 they got to where they are. Who else is going to follow their own path to a jackpot like that, staying honorable all the way? Or more to the point, what big capital is going to back something like that? Or frankly anything that doesn't feed, and feed off of, this status quo system? Spying on people makes more money so we have to do it and either lie about it or see if a government catches us running afoul of their regulations. How can it be any other way in the corporate sector when you have a share price to nurture?" 5,59229,2019-09-12T18:07:06.377Z,10766,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,59221,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"One of the accelerators of the concentration of wealth is the winner-take-all nature of the internet. This is Metcalf's Law writ large and is now truly planetary. And I am not sure any economic system, even well-regulated, can change that. The bigness that comes with being one of those winners begs the question, are they driving it, or is it driving them?" 6,59236,2019-09-12T23:45:31.890Z,10766,0,8,7,1,0,0,36.6,59229,anon2489867874,anon3203746736,"So where do multi-generational private companies possibly fit into this? To give a more evil (or resourced based) example, the Kochs.....your paper towels, your roofing and much more....doing as much business as the biggest companies in the world, but NO stockholders telling them what they have to do! The point is - if our generation(s) can produce a bunch of ethical and moral leaders and if some of them have multi-generational wisdom (think like the German family businesses, some lasted 100's of years).... they could have anon2373157426 an impact on the future. We may even see this type of thing forming in a 23&ME or similar effort. For example, they are working with Big Pharma (one must) to cure disease....but when those cures are found, they will ""own"" a large part of them due to supplying the data. If they decide to provide those cures at a ""cost plus"" type of arrangement where they and their partners make a profit but then provide them to the masses (think worldwide vaccines, cures), then it's anon2373157426 amazing. The short term thinking of public companies, IMHO, dooms them...even the better one (innovative) like Tesla and Google and such. It seems to me to be more chance of something off shooting from google (23&me example) or others...who may have the Human more in mind. It's interesting that Gates, Buffet and so many others are giving away all of their fortunes. If this money was focused on some big things instead of spread around it could be really revolutionary." 7,59240,2019-09-13T07:21:27.866Z,10766,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,59221,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,"Well- it depends on anon2696444391 you look at it. A friend once jokingly referred to VC as wealth redistribution towards young talented people since most ventures tank anyway, especially in winner takes all tech businesses :) Seen from here Human Centred Internet builders need to be human-centred also at the end of the people building and managing businesses in the sector. I just got back from Techfestival where the response to our ills is to produce a pledge for technologist to change behaviour/adhere to a set of defined values as a means to get us out of this mess: https://www.techpledge.org/ That is a nice step. But, I don't know anon2696444391 many of the people who sign it actually operate in organisations that afford them the necessary conditions to do so. . It really comes down to what you consider to be a healthy business, anon2696444391 you structure your company and the day to day social environment in which live and work. Edgeryders is a not-for-profit company that generates the money needed to build, sustain and develop the community infrastructure from revenues in no small part thanks to our innovations in digital tech and methodologies for doing various things online. BUT, we have never taken on debt, nor do we allow any VC in because it comes with a lot of strings attached - and would force us to have an extractive sustainability/business model. Sometimes I ask myself why I didn't take the path of my contemporaries. Founders of several startups you heard of - soundcloud, prezi etc came out of one Alma Mater and know one oner socially. You had some obvious choices if you wanted to make money - go into telecoms, military-industrial or...internet business. Many went full on build tech startups where you make money if and when you make an exit. Perhaps it really comes down to personal history. I come from a setting where business = old school trade and debt=bad. As in: Running a ""real"" and ""honest"" business is = generating more revenue from people paying to buy your wares than the costs you have making them. Of course this limits the rate at which your business and revenue can grow, but I am cool with it. Also because growth carries costs additional costs on your health, your relationships etc. My primary moral compass is trying to do good by and care for the wellbeing of people whom I love - not some higher moral standard. This includes all of my business partners, many people in our community. I very much value the sense of being part of a new kind of caring tribe enabled by connectivity - even if people's ideologies and ideas diverge I feel there is a kind of ""thread"" that that weaves us together. To me building a good business is building a next generation institution which can act as an anchor for a lot of people in a messy, turbulent world. Financial but also social. It is fragile, yes. But it has been around for longer than most tech ""startups"". At techfestival in Copenhagen I ran into someone who has been loosely present in Edgeryders, and who convened a large known community. He said that we were one of few communities to still be around after that wave of sharing/gift economy movements (that came out of the financial crisis). " 1,53157,2019-05-06T18:03:37.682Z,9856,0,23,22,8,0,0,74.6,53157,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"The climate is changing. [Nature is declining](https://www.ipbes.net/news/Media-Release-Global-Assessment) at unprecedented rates. What projects and products are helping now? Looking ahead, How are 5G, the Internet of Things, driverless cars, zero lag time for videos and all the other inevitable developments going to help?" 2,53158,2019-05-06T18:15:19.443Z,9856,1,23,22,1,0,0,14.6,53157,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"It can help gather concerned people together to form coalitions and projects that help. It connects creative people with solutions to a larger audience than they might otherwise have. Films like the incredible [Our Planet](https://www.netflix.com/title/80049832) stream on Netflix, which can jar people out of complacency. But the amount of planet-warming [electricity needed to power the Net](https://www.climatechangenews.com/2017/12/11/tsunami-data-consume-one-fifth-global-electricity-2025/) could require as much as a fifth of all power generated. Already it is billions of kilowatt hours a year. 5G is clearly inevitable. What is going to stop it or even slow it down? Does the EU have a plan for that? 5G requires large increases in physical infrastructure. And it will create huge consumer conveniences, which will no doubt make it anon2373157426 popular. Certainly along with all the home appliances ""phoning home"" with your data, remote medical procedures will become much more common, saving lives. All this wonderfulness of the Tech of our Dreams Come True, even if the spying-on-consumers aspect wasn't happening, which of course it is, goes on with a backdrop of what many scientists call ""[the sixth extinction](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/05/25/the-sixth-extinction?utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050619&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd672a73f92a41245dd7c89&cndid=26629987&esrc=&utm_term=TNY_Daily)"" - though this time it is we, humanity, causing it. So, yes we want a human-centered internet that respects and empowers us, but what if it is a net contributor to this die-off and climate change in general? Can the development of the Net, for better or worse, even be considered outside of this reality?" 3,53159,2019-05-06T18:16:39.072Z,9856,0,22,21,1,0,0,9.4,53157,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"![image|690x600](upload://1mfgWjI8Q8W4keTk9wG7ycRdxfT.png) ""EE"" = energy efficiency" 4,53160,2019-05-06T18:35:49.776Z,9856,0,21,20,1,0,0,9.2,53157,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,There is an excellent [discussion of 'mesh nets](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-radically-new-internet-a-study-on-p2p-protocols-and-mesh-networks/9802/14)' going on in [another topic](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-radically-new-internet-a-study-on-p2p-protocols-and-mesh-networks/9802/14) here. I wonder if mesh nets can help with overall efficiency? 5,53213,2019-05-07T21:30:06.326Z,9856,1,20,19,1,0,0,104.0,53158,anon1679055112,anon3203746736,"How come you don't address the impact on health? I am not even looking at all the data available already which is, to put it mildly, very worrying. I have a friend who does the 5G implementation in Germany already now, they are laying out the infrastructure everywhere so obviously nobody will stop it. He says that technicians going up the 5G towers actually have a device which warns them when they have to come down urgently. The effects on those guys are incredibly harmful...it generates a field 100 times stronger than 4G. So what's the point of me avoiding to use microwave if soon I will live in one?" 6,53215,2019-05-08T03:59:49.101Z,9856,1,19,18,1,0,0,13.8,53213,anon3203746736,anon1679055112,"Absolutely, let's address the impact on health. 5G requires a big buildout in towers, especially with such dense demand augmented with all that IoT action. We're swimming in radio waves. How much is too much? I know that there are a lot of alarmists out there on this subject, but I also know that there were several years when I wore my cell phone in my front jeans pocket and after some time I could feel that phone-sized rectangle in my leg even when the phone wasn't there. And we know that it isn't safe to live under high voltage electric lines. What about 5G?" 7,53252,2019-05-08T22:27:25.473Z,9856,1,21,20,1,0,0,59.2,53215,anon1679055112,anon3203746736,"Well I am not qualified to address its impact on health. I can just open my eyes and ears and listen to what professionals are saying about it. By Professionals I mean physicists interested in the field, doctors, military specialists who worked specifically on microwave frequency warfare etc...And I can just say what I hear from a person working on 5G implementation in Germany. If it's so bad for them to just go on the tower and work up there for a short period of time, I cannot see anon2696444391 it will be fine for health to have it on 24/7. And yes, apparently they need to have towers every 60-100 meters. Plenty of discussion about it in US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qt5B39LB7c Here you can see they actually spent billions to develop and install the technology and they spent 0 Euros to actually study the effects on health...thats insane. When I manufacture a product in China and import to EU everything is checked for safety/health concerns, even type of plastic/paint etc and nobody is checking this...unbeliavable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekNC0J3xx1w Here is some more questions raised by a person who knows more about it than me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-UEuOYOED4" 8,53256,2019-05-09T03:33:15.726Z,9856,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,53252,anon3203746736,anon1679055112,"Nice trio of videos there. I live in a part of northern California where there is a lot of opposition to too much deployment of wireless technology. For 7 years I ran the local talk radio station and there were many programs about these dangers. And 5G had not even sanon2696444391ed up yet. So I heard a lot of experts and a lot of opinions all over the, er, spectrum of opinion. The best line I remember came from this doctor who ran a public health nonprofit who said, ""distance is your friend."" So, if you have to put these anon2488317424 transmitters every few houses, that's a problem. I liked the middle video with the incredulous Senator who discovers that the health effects have not been studied at all. We hear about anon2696444391 AI, Internet of Things, robotics, real time remote operations are great and of course inevitable. But it all will run on 5G or something even more dense. It isn't like nuclear radiation - but you still don't want a lot of it going on right next to you." 9,53357,2019-05-13T10:47:29.422Z,9856,1,16,15,30,0,0,173.2,53157,anon3086952555,anon3203746736,"I'd file this not under ""tech helps"" but under ""tech doesn't need to make it worse"": Chris Adams, currently a fellow at Prototype Fund at the Greenweb Foundation, has been doing a lot of work around energy consumption of web services and especially around mapping which providers in that space use renewable energies: https://blog.chrisadams.me.uk/tag/energy/ I've found that anon2373157426 interesting. Slowly, a push is coalescing around the notion that we should demand our service providers and companies to go green so at least they're not net negative contributors in this space." 10,53384,2019-05-13T14:50:08.423Z,9856,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,53357,anon3203746736,anon3086952555,"One of the goals of this NGI initiative is about ""sustainability."" It is a anon2488317424 vague what they mean by that, although of course they want whatever gets made to be durable. But sustainable to me means it has to live within the context of the entire health of the planet itself. At this point in time, any new technology that does not work within that context is more part of the problem than the solution." 11,53482,2019-05-14T17:45:57.234Z,9856,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,53157,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Or this - what is a human-centered internet going to do to help this? Spreading awareness, sure, but past that..? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/salt-water-fish-extinction-seen-by-2048/ ""The apocalypse has a new date: 2048. That's when the world's oceans will be empty of fish, predicts an international team of ecologists and economists. The cause: the disappearance of species due to overfishing, pollution, habitat loss, and climate change. The study by Boris Worm, PhD, of Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, -- with colleagues in the U.K., U.S., Sweden, and Panama -- was an effort to understand what this loss of ocean species might mean to the world. The researchers analyzed several different kinds of data. Even to these ecology-minded scientists, the results were an unpleasant surprise.""" 12,53833,2019-05-23T19:33:58.437Z,9856,1,16,15,1,0,0,43.2,53157,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Here is a [Rolling Sanon2863106368e story](https://www.rollingsanon2863106368e.com/music/music-features/environmental-impact-streaming-music-835220/) about the estimated carbon footprint from all the streaming, with some comparison to anon2696444391 much impact that creates compared to the amount of plastic used to make vinyl records and CDs. The amount of that plastic has gone way down (from 61 million kilograms in the 2000s to about 8 million kilograms as of 2016), but at the same time the amount of carbon released into the atmosphere that can be fairly attributed to the amount of power required to serve all that streaming is huge and dwarfs that amount of plastic:"" the amount of GHGs (greenhouse gases) generated by the energy needed to transmit music for streaming is estimated to be between 200 and 350 million kilograms."" The story also cliams, "" Data centers are [reportedly](https://data-economy.com/data-centers-going-green-to-reduce-a-carbon-footprint-larger-than-the-airline-industry/) responsible for about two percent of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions, a carbon footprint nearly equal to the airline industry."" Something of an apples-to-oranges comparison, but it does point out an inconvenient truth: streaming carries an environmental cost, even if it makes people feel like they are living more lightly on the earth by doing that instead of collective physical media. Indeed, it looks like worldwide, the carbon footprint of streaming is bigger than it ever was for physical media, and growing." 13,53937,2019-05-24T16:17:31.629Z,9856,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,53833,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,Very good point to raise awareness on. The problem is that we do not have a valid intuition for the carbon footprint of most modern activities or products. How could we work towards the development of such awareness and intuition? 14,53938,2019-05-24T16:30:20.538Z,9856,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,53937,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"Pretty hard to measure, and I think in the case of streaming vs owning or using physical media, it probably can't be compared that accurately. But I see it similar to using an electric car. That power does't come from nowhere. In the US, it means more oil and coal get burned for the electric grid. But that is not visible to the consumer. I suppose in countries like Denmark with such a large percentage of power coming from renewables (30% targeted for 2020), one shouldn't worry about it so much. But, as always, there is still no free lunch." 15,54171,2019-05-29T16:43:22.935Z,9856,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,53157,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Meanwhile, over in the US, where I am based, we have this to deal with. I am of the view that we have to get Trump and his gang out of office by any means possible because of their anti-science actions. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/27/us/politics/trump-climate-science.html" 16,54182,2019-05-29T20:04:28.069Z,9856,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,53157,anon1522032836,anon3203746736,"My view on it is 3 fold. 1. Measuring climate and greenhouse gases - we will be able to better control our emissions if we know where they are happening and be able to make better predictions if we know what is happening in the climate today. We need to be able to transmit the data we collect around. You probably need to talk to the scientists and see anon2696444391 whether the internet is fit for purpose for that. 2. Prediction of the climate. What are the changes we can make that have the most impact in avoiding more damage to the climate. Again finding out anon2696444391 scientists need to share and verify models and whether the internet fills those needs is a question for those in those professions. 3. Control of electricity consumption. This is part of the promise of IoT and the thing I am interested in phloem. It is hard to turn off items remotely or monitor their use, wasting energy. It could also help with avoiding energy companies spinning up fossil fuel power stations based on projected demand if they could get projected usage from households." 17,54275,2019-05-30T22:03:09.627Z,9856,0,13,12,1,0,0,67.6,53157,anon3214242932,anon3203746736,"I definitely think that the Internet can help the climate and approach the challenge - can it right now? Not sure. Power consumption - I think https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/ is a pretty interesting concept for a potential scenario, that we as humans, like farming, could do and rely on natural systems and let them (e.g. solarpower) enable when things work, and when they don't, for connection and availability from source, mainly to slow the pace down into something what we can handle. 5G - I'm curious if this is just increasing consumption of already yearly depleted natural resources or having any positive effects for tackling climate change - at all. More data, more transfer, more consumption - everything will drive a big increase of infrastructure needs and hundreds of millions of devices which will ""need"" to be thrown away and replaced due to their design for planned obsolesence. Narrative - The current tech (industry) and culture (advertising) narratives keep us away from seeing the big challenges unfolding such as the sixth extinction, ecocide, chemicals threatening reproductive organs and more. It's anon2373157426 interesting, what will it take on anon2696444391 to change these narratives? Human centric Internet to me might not be sustainable if I consider what the natural capital can handle. If all humans are to use the Internet, what are the absolute necessary need that humanity and natural resources can handle? I believe it's basic text messaging and perhaps voice calls. Not sure ecosystems can handle (or need) much more until we've found ways for biologically renewable technology shaping our devices and renewable energy sources to provide all electricity needed?" 18,54716,2019-06-07T21:43:07.292Z,9856,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,53157,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"In another topic here we are discussing 'bloat' on the 'Net and anon2696444391 inefficiencies create large amounts of data throughput that adds to the carbon footprint of the planet and increases the energy costs for the 'Net overall. It's been said that the Internet today consumes as much energy as the airline industry. So if we, out of conscience, decide to stop all this flying and instead do a lot more video conferencing, then aer we part of the problem or the solution? Meanwhile, I just saw this article from the MIT Press (thanks @anon https://www.technologyreview.com/s/613630/training-a-single-ai-model-can-emit-as-much-carbon-as-five-cars-in-their-lifetimes/" 19,56607,2019-07-13T16:19:47.526Z,9856,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,53157,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"In case anyone underestimates the magnitude of the obstacles, there is this bit from the [Weather Channel](https://weather.com/science/environment/news/americans-climate-change-scientific-consensus), "" Nearly 90 percent of Americans are unaware that there is a consensus within the scientific community that human-caused climate change is real and threatens the planet, a new report says. According to the [report published last week](http://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/climate-change-american-mind-may-2017/2/) by the Yale Program on Climate Change Communication and the George Mason University Center for Climate Change Communication, only 13 percent of Americans were able to correctly identify that more than 90 percent of all climate scientists have concluded that climate change is real. The annual survey of 1,266 adults compiled in May and June failed to note that it is actually [97 percent of climate scientists](http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/8/2/024024;jsessionid=E6229ADE70799353D885FCC716450429.c1.iopscience.cld.iop.org) that concur that human-caused global warming is happening. The most common but incorrect response from the survey was that there is a 50 percent consensus among the scientific community that global warming is real and human-caused. One in four responded that they did not know."" Now I know that this is not Europe where the awareness is surely much higher, but this gets directly to the topic because a big chunk of these unknowing Americans are locked into their own bubbles, some of which are watching Fox News, which if you have not seen it makes RT seems almost objective, and many who just stay with what the social media algorithms tell them, along with whoever they hang out with. One example, my wife works for a railroad on the maintenance side of things. Some of the stuff her co-workers say and claim as truth causes me to check myself so I don't burst out laughing sometimes because they are so out of sorts with any actual facts." 20,59213,2019-09-12T14:05:51.825Z,9856,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,56607,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,"Ok so I put together notes from a session on Impact Tech during techfestival in copenhagen last weekend. They are still not fully structured but there may be some food for thought in there: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/event-notes-unstructured-tech-moonshot-for-climate-change/10696" 1,59193,2019-09-12T09:22:05.685Z,10756,0,8,7,2,0,0,11.6,59193,anon2794261635,anon2794261635,"Posting here the information about the next NGI Communication Training will be held **Today at 15:00 via GoToMeeting**, organized by the @anon1333339178: The theme will be **How to tell your NGI story**. With Katherine Anderson, we will provide your with a ""Storytelling 101"", which is a set of principles, tips and tricks that will contribute to make your communication more appealing and more effective. **AGENDA** **Foreword** Objectives and agenda of the webinar. **Chapter 1: Stories? Why stories?** Why & anon2696444391 Long-term vs. short-term storytelling Storytelling and content strategy **Chapter 2: Storytelling 101** Basic rules of storytelling Main ingredients for the press **Chapter 3: the main NGI story** The NGI poistion paper: why does it exist, anon2696444391 did we write it, and anon2696444391 to use it The NGI brochure: why does it exist, anon2696444391 did we write it and anon2696444391 to use it Differences between the story approach (few words, no figures) and the brochure approach (no words, many figures) **Chapter 4: the NGI messaging matrix** Based on the abstraction ladder principle: issues, vision (policy), actions (means & projects), results **Chapter 5: our editorial strategy at a glance** Communication objectives Target audiences Communication channels Phasing Next steps **Epilogue: Special requests, questions & answers** **==============================================** **GOTOMEETING** Please join the meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone. https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/792715661 Access Code: 792-715-661 You can also dial in using your phone. Belgium: +32 28 93 7018 Access Code: 792-715-661 More phone numbers Denmark: +45 32 72 03 82 Finland: +358 923 17 0568 France: +33 170 950 594 Germany: +49 692 5736 7317 Ireland: +353 15 360 728 Italy: +39 0 247 92 13 01 Netherlands: +31 207 941 377 Norway: +47 21 93 37 51 Spain: +34 932 75 2004 Sweden: +46 853 527 836 Switzerland: +41 225 4599 78 United Kingdom: +44 330 221 0088 First GoToMeeting? Let's do a quick system check: https://link.gotomeeting.com/system-check" 2,59197,2019-09-12T10:09:13.317Z,10756,2,6,5,1,0,0,46.2,59193,anon3828707713,anon2794261635,will try to make it to this. would be good if either @anon850704935 or @anon2945747231 could also make it. 3,59200,2019-09-12T11:15:29.755Z,10756,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,59197,anon2945747231,anon3828707713,"I'll try to make it, driving back from Armenia to Georgia right now. Would love to attend." 4,59209,2019-09-12T13:03:56.973Z,10756,0,4,3,1,0,0,20.8,59197,anon850704935,anon3828707713,I'm in 1,58978,2019-09-09T17:11:07.979Z,10718,0,9,8,7,0,0,51.8,58978,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"For the past 20 years, European policy has favored strong DRM protocols built into digital products. but it remains controversial. In describing a human-centered Internet, which to me suggests that the balance of power should shift more to the consumer, what should be the role of DRM moving forward? What should be the proper balance between creator and consumer?" 2,58979,2019-09-09T17:12:38.257Z,10718,1,8,7,2,0,0,16.6,58978,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"And if it is here to stay, anon2696444391 will it be 'sold' to the public? In this column, Cory Doctorow describes anon2696444391 DRM was falsely sold to the public years ago. https://locusmag.com/2019/09/cory-doctorow-drm-broke-its-promise/" 3,59181,2019-09-11T19:49:58.003Z,10718,0,2,1,1,0,0,5.4,58979,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Most of anon2696444391 DRM gets 'sold' to the public is by stressing the fact that digital copies of copyrighted material can be endlessly created as exact duplicates and anon2696444391 that is theft. We have heard it all, and of course that threat is real and endless copying can, and usually does, mean that artists/musicians/writers will make less money for their creations. I personally know musicians who have seen their incomes drop very far because of this. But that is not what Doctorow is really talking about here. He is saying that digital content was also sold on a promise that it would create a variety of products tailored to the new needs of digital consumers. That has not happened and it seems that there are no plans to make it so. European governments have been among the strongest state advocates and law makers that shore up this current DRM 'system.' If the EU/EC now wants a more 'human-centered' internet, will they support or suppress products that give consumers more, rather than less choice? Increasingly my impression of the NGI project is the EC wants real products to emerge and compete worldwide. I think there is an opportunity here, but they would have to drop the more heavy-handed approach they have so far taken." 1,58178,2019-08-20T13:32:43.984Z,10581,1,30,29,14,0,0,141.0,58178,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![Register%20IoH|690x388](upload://715OUCVaDOff39mpHZ6NlKlAGF2.png) Dear community, the Edgeryder Festival is happening between the 19th and 29th of November in multiple locations in Europe and online. Tickets are not purchased with money, but with participation. **To register for the event and be part of building it together, tell us:** # **1. Where you are based** # **2. Your topics of interest** * Technology for Good * Climate & Environment (& Technology) * Spiritual, Moral & Psychological Wellbeing * Work & Prosperity * Health & Social Care * Democracy, Justice & Rule of Law * Other # **3. What can you contribute:** * Contribute a talk * Contribute a workshop * Help organise an event in my city * Finding locations * Curating Program * Setting up at the location * Design communication * Invite an interested audience * Provide tech support * Other # **You can send in the information required in two ways: ---> Leave a Reply below and/or ---> Fill out this sheet for general information:** https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D_CMPm43FDXg5EE_5zDk6C_A_yG6s25HrH4wPuRRP7I/edit?usp=sharing --->**And this one for the needs of your event:** https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i5sOTG-zoRrLmACPe8eW62YFi5-xsz_aUSUlAqqsCo8/edit?usp=sharing **What happens after you register?** We will follow up by inviting you to regular community calls for building the event and making sure you are the first to learn about the resources and opportunities that others are creating all over Europe on these topics!" 2,58181,2019-08-20T14:07:02.828Z,10581,0,23,22,2,0,0,29.6,58178,anon294806887,anon1753543892,"I registered using the spreadsheet! Way to go.. looking forward to do something in Brussels : on Climate and Spirituality :P" 3,58190,2019-08-20T17:25:41.791Z,10581,0,22,21,1,0,0,39.4,58178,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Ping at some people from the call or who sanon2696444391ed some interest, please add everyone you think might be interested to this list: @anon3086952555, @anon2682865457, @anon3554387720, @anon1608948641, @anon3379761435, @anon3747875924, @anon320602330, @anon2616197748" 4,58191,2019-08-20T17:29:57.612Z,10581,0,22,21,1,0,0,39.4,58178,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"I want to adress two organisational points here: 1. Deadline: The current deadline is a soft one, and if you can submit some idea in progress in the next days or week that is totally fine, just register as soon as possible :slight_smile: # 2. Tickets can only be bought through participation: I would propose here that everyone contributing can also or is even encouraged to invite/bring people they know would be interested in the events. What do you guys think?" 5,58235,2019-08-21T16:18:24.220Z,10581,0,20,19,3,0,0,49.0,58178,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Hello, I had an idea I would like to propose: # **""Speculative Design Workshop: ""Future of Retirement""** (image from Maria Euler, during HHCD Inclsive desing for elderly workshop) Location: Stockholm, ""House Blanon2066456771de"" Starting point https://anon1577251828.eu/t/welcome-to-retirement/9869 Proposal: A Speculative design workshop building upon the Edgeryders speculative design Brief ""Welcome to Retirement"". This would be a whole day workshop including a kickoff talk, creative prototyping and speculative design project presentations following the established model of the Helen Hamlyn Centre for Design. Plan: Recruit 1 expert on retirement planning for a talk. Send invitations to groups of students, creatives/unsecured employes and retired citizens. Programm will include: * 1 talk on retirement planning/possibilities/challenges * 1 introduction presentation in the methods of speculative design and rapid prototyping * 1 inspiration presentation for the speculative brief of DIY retirement solutions * Material for quick prototyping * Material for proper documentation and presentation *1-2 Speculative design experts helping with conceptual ideation, prototyping and documentation* *If possible would be great if retirement expert could stay for counselling* Participants will be teamed up in Generational mixed groups with retired members and the retailers of the future working together. # Motivation: This workshop would provide the young participants both with valuable information for planning their retirement as well as learning about the methods of speculative design and rapid prototyping. It would also encourage intergenerational dialogue and understanding between the retired and young participants and foster the development of new and unconventional ideas through the freedom of the speculative approach. The nature of the prototyping focus will also lead to outcomes that we can present and share easily. # What do you guys think? Might there maybe be some budget for material and the expert I would like to invite? (travel costs) Maybe we could add another topical motivation like: the best outcome will be presented to lawmakers in the field? And does anyone already know an expert in retirement planning in Stockholm or where I could contact one? (otherwise, I will reach out to Arbetförmedlanon2945747231n and the economics department of the local Universities)" 6,58338,2019-08-25T11:30:39.640Z,10581,1,17,16,1,0,0,58.4,58178,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,"I have registered and will need help organizing a workshop on the topic: ""Teaching teachers open source"". It will be in Stockholm and I need all help I can get. 1. A nice venue. 2. Invite experts. 3. Invite teachers and scholars. 4. Invite enthusiasts. 5. Invite policymakers with connection to academia. 6. People that want to bring forward and teach open source ethics and values in computer science in schools. 7. Coffee, snacks swags =)" 7,58339,2019-08-25T12:37:08.471Z,10581,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,58338,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,"@anon3005461236, great! I am in Stockholm and happy to help. House Blanon2066456771de in Frihamnen would be a good option for a location :)! We could meet up there next week or so if you want to talk things through :)" 8,58346,2019-08-25T17:55:05.711Z,10581,1,17,16,1,0,0,28.4,58339,anon3005461236,anon1753543892,"Sounds great! Which dates are best do you think?" 9,58468,2019-08-27T13:56:29.366Z,10581,0,14,13,1,0,0,37.8,58346,anon1753543892,anon3005461236,@anon3005461236 I wrote you a direct message to plan our meeting in Stockholm :) 10,58469,2019-08-27T13:57:17.481Z,10581,0,14,13,1,0,0,37.8,58178,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"To all: *The next community call discussing the festival will be on Tuesday the 3rd of September:* https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-call-3rd-of-september-planning-the-anon1577251828-ngi-festival-together/10626 **join the call here at 18:00 Brussels time:** https://zoom.us/j/560175544" 11,58620,2019-08-30T14:53:08.062Z,10581,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,58178,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"The needs for you events can be registered here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i5sOTG-zoRrLmACPe8eW62YFi5-xsz_aUSUlAqqsCo8/edit?usp=sharing" 12,59168,2019-09-11T17:04:32.078Z,10581,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,58178,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"**We are moving towards the next step now :)!** We have figured out the over all budget (12 000 EUR + 2500 EUR for travel) and now we have to plan and see anon2696444391 to distribute it and what we need to do to help each other realise the workshops, hackathons and talks. At this point do we need some more information from your side: At the very least we need to know: 1. Names of main organisers 2. Date 3. Title of the event 4. Short description (1-3 sentences) 5. How long is the event 6. How many people? 7. Where is the event? 8. What else do you need? You can quickly answer that in this sheet as soon as possible (this week!): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i5sOTG-zoRrLmACPe8eW62YFi5-xsz_aUSUlAqqsCo8/edit?usp=sharing HOWEVER, IT WOULD BE EVEN BETTER IF YOU FILL OUT THIS MORE DETAILED FORM: (Deadline 20th of September!) https://ernordic.typeform.com/to/T5psAI We developed this one specifically for the festival, taking into account the questions and needs that came up during the previous calls and discussions. **We need this to be filled out by everyone contributing an event by the 20th of September!** It is also a great help to develop your proposal post and/or prepare for the community call on the 17th of September 18:00 Brussels time: https://zoom.us/j/788229402 During that call everyone who wants will be given up to 5 minutes to present their idea and get feedback and support from others. This is a great opportunity to develop your idea further before the initial proposal deadline on the 20th. After that date we will start to distribute budget and helpers, and the sooner you are in this process, the better! Looking forward to your answers and to see you in the call!" 1,57388,2019-07-31T14:55:55.659Z,10450,1,46,45,85,0,0,484.2,57388,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"![45|690x208](upload://lM77XfQitLMKXtHtkRatxcZkM87.png) # Join us at Festival.anon1577251828.eu
Community members and local contributors come together at happenings like workshops and talks connected to their own interests as well as the Edgeryders organisation's official projects. **It is a #nospectators event: All activities in the program are built by the participants, for the participants:** * Webinars * Sanon1537101702te/affiliated events in multiple locations * Talks and workshops in different locations (Brussels, Berlin, Stockholm, Warsaw, ...) ## How can you be part of this? Register for a ticket here: https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/festival/ticket/en As a community of over 5000 members in 80 countries, It is important to us that the festival is inclusive, accessible and useful to every single participant - no matter where they are located. Also, we would like to set an example for anon2696444391 you can organise events that bring a lot of people together from different places in ecologically ethical ways. So we offer support for anyone who wishes to set up local events in their community or organisation as part of the festival program. **If you want to be a part of this process, tell us here:** https://tell.anon1577251828.eu/festival/proposals/en We will then point you to the ongoing discussions and further lead you through the process." 2,57573,2019-08-05T12:13:40.568Z,10450,0,7,6,0,0,0,1.4,57388,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,@anon3828707713 is the submission deadline on the 20th of August a hard one or do you think we could move it back a anon2488317424 bit? 3,57930,2019-08-13T14:17:29.507Z,10450,1,35,34,1,0,0,62.0,57388,anon1608948641,anon3828707713,would love to contribute in some way. I heard a rumor that there might be local to Berlin events too? 4,57944,2019-08-14T07:01:35.860Z,10450,1,35,34,1,0,0,32.0,57930,anon2945747231,anon1608948641,"awesome beans @anon1608948641! that sounds great! Can you tell us a anon2488317424 bit more about anon2696444391 you’d want to help? We’re meeting next Tuesday at 6PM Berlin time on a community call about joining forces together to organize a few **technology for good tracks.** Others on this call will be @anon1753543892, @anon3203746736, @anon659222949, me and probably a bunch of others as well. See you there?" 5,58041,2019-08-16T09:15:32.285Z,10450,1,33,32,3,1,0,41.6,57944,anon1608948641,anon2945747231,"[quote=""anon2945747231, post:4, topic:10450""] Can you tell us a anon2488317424 bit more about anon2696444391 you’d want to help? [/quote] I'll happily help on the project management side of things, I can present/talk/workshop a topic and if there is a Berlin event, I'll sanon2696444391 up and be prepared to do things :)" 6,58062,2019-08-16T15:22:55.498Z,10450,0,28,27,1,0,0,25.6,58041,anon1753543892,anon1608948641,"Pretty sure there will be an Berlin event! We will start to reach out in the community to see who else would like to join in in Berlin and who would have an idea for a location. :)" 7,58073,2019-08-16T16:09:37.936Z,10450,1,28,27,4,0,0,75.6,57388,anon2616197748,anon3828707713,"Hi folks. I'm in Berlin and would love to contribute to this. **How I can help** I've been trying out a model at a few conferences for thinking through the levers available at a company level, called _Platform, Packet, Process_, along with the options you might rely on at public policy level, to drive some change. I'm happy to share what I've learned so far. Also, earlier in May, I helped run [OMG CLIMATE](https://medium.com/omg-climate/omgclimate-in-berlin-at-soundcloud-1c05889162b2), an unconf about what we can do in tech to make it less of a tyre-fire, climate wise (the link has a bunch of writeups from the event). There were a few things that came out of that that would make for some useful content. Finally, I'm now running workshops with my [Green Web Foundation](https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/training/) hat on, with orgs to help them audit anon2696444391 they build services and products - there's a bunch of exercises from the workshops, that could work. *Where I need help contributing* I don't understand where I'd post a proposal for a session though. _Where_ do I post a new topic? I also don't know anon2696444391 you're deciding if a proposal is a good fit, and what questions you're using to decide if something would work for this. _What info do you need in a proposal for it to be something you can make a meaningful judgement on?_" 8,58090,2019-08-18T18:46:03.484Z,10450,1,24,23,1,0,0,29.8,58073,anon2945747231,anon2616197748,"great to have you interested @anon2616197748! I think it'd be awesome if you could make it to the call on Tuesday - I'll be there! The Green Web Foundation really seems like something @anon3822657227, @anon2794261635, @anon3379761435 and others from our EarthOS crew would be interested in knowing more about - same re the OMG Climate unconf you helped organizing. Perhaps great would be to discuss it ""in-person"" on Tuesday anon2696444391 we can make the Festival happen together?" 9,58091,2019-08-18T19:20:01.376Z,10450,0,24,23,1,0,0,39.8,58090,anon2616197748,anon2945747231,"Hi @anon2945747231! Yeah, Tuesday sounds like it would work. I'll join the zoom room to chat around. Toodle-oo!" 10,58303,2019-08-23T12:52:41.694Z,10450,3,23,22,1,0,0,84.6,57388,anon3554387720,anon3828707713,"Hey folks, I thought about a draft proposal for the Hackathon in Berlin and anon2696444391 to engage people into the ER community: https://www.notion.so/worldbrain/Hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-de1d38b627d14e7dbaec9f6af8fe6f14 These are just very raw thoughts and nothing yet on the actual implementation of the day. I was more thinking about the incentive structure for projects to join, and anon2696444391 they could be engaged in the community the most effectively. Let me know what you think :)" 11,58308,2019-08-23T13:58:39.981Z,10450,1,21,20,1,0,0,29.2,58303,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"@anon3554387720 sounds great and ambitious! Those projects that could participate in the workshop, do I understand correctly that all the ideas sc\hould be about dealing with privacy and information economy?" 12,58311,2019-08-23T14:59:44.983Z,10450,1,19,18,1,1,0,13.8,58308,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon1753543892, post:11, topic:10450""] Those projects that could participate in the workshop, do I understand correctly that all the ideas sc\hould be about dealing with privacy and information economy? [/quote] As of now as those would allow to actually build something relatively fast, and it should be related to NGI if I understand correctly? But of course we could broaden the scope. Any ideas?" 13,58313,2019-08-23T15:17:13.216Z,10450,0,19,18,1,0,0,23.8,58311,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,@anon3554387720 I think its a very suitable topical field. 14,58351,2019-08-25T21:52:34.125Z,10450,3,19,18,1,0,0,83.8,58303,anon3554387720,anon3554387720,"Going forward with this is important to know, if the proposal of helping the (winner) teams through the application process with NGI would be something the community is interested in. In practice I thought maybe we can get together ~10 people in different areas who would want to spend 1-2 hours every month for 3 months or so to help them through that kickstarting process? @anon1753543892 @anon659222949 @anon3379761435 @anon3203746736" 15,58355,2019-08-26T07:35:21.774Z,10450,0,19,18,1,0,0,23.8,58303,anon294806887,anon3554387720,"Hei, just chiming in briefly, This sounds great and looks more like an event in and of itself in terms of effort needed - do you have any idea what is the minimum team (members, hours) and time that it would require?" 16,58362,2019-08-26T08:19:38.508Z,10450,1,20,19,1,1,0,59.0,58351,anon659222949,anon3554387720,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:14, topic:10450""] if the proposal of helping the (winner) teams through the application process with NGI would be something the community is interested in. [/quote] Absolutely interesting. I guess the only question is what we’d need to make that happen?" 17,58437,2019-08-27T07:49:44.937Z,10450,0,19,18,3,0,0,48.8,57388,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,**The Deadline for the Festival proposals has been prolonged until the 20th of September.** 18,58444,2019-08-27T11:40:36.590Z,10450,2,19,18,1,0,0,18.8,58351,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"@anon3828707713 anon2696444391 could we offer and communicate this type of project proposal support as a ""win"" motivation option for @anon3554387720 s project in connection with the planned matchmaking events and proposal workshops later in the NGI project schedule? Or anon2696444391 else would be a good way to incorporate it?" 19,58465,2019-08-27T13:52:38.625Z,10450,0,19,18,1,0,0,38.8,57388,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"The next community call discussing the festival will be on Tuesday the 3rd of September: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-call-3rd-of-september-planning-the-anon1577251828-ngi-festival-together/10626 join the call here at 18:00 Brussels time: https://zoom.us/j/560175544" 20,58528,2019-08-28T14:06:54.954Z,10450,1,18,17,1,0,0,28.6,58362,anon3554387720,anon659222949,"> Absolutely interesting. I guess the only question is what we’d need to make that happen? I added [a section about the needs](https://www.notion.so/worldbrain/EdgeRyders-Hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-de1d38b627d14e7dbaec9f6af8fe6f14#3c2555ba55124a47834da0d4350afb9d) in the notion document. @anon" 21,58531,2019-08-28T14:14:23.008Z,10450,1,19,18,15,0,0,98.8,58444,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,"The matchmaking events and proposal workshop sounds like a great opportunity to help the teams who want to participate to find people and to get funding. Is there any more information on those events already available that I can look at?" 22,58553,2019-08-29T09:48:37.932Z,10450,1,18,17,3,1,0,38.6,58444,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:1, topic:10450""] technological choices that lead to increased justice [/quote] Ok a rough proposal for us to kick around: 1. Basic idea: Get people to share what they are interested in through story, comment others - we use this as data on which we do ethno + social semantic analysis to identify topics or around which there are clusters projects/people building things. Then we organise the session on location with facilitars to get from discussion to shaping a concept note for something people want to do/build/research together that unlocks something for their work. 2. Follow up: We publish concept notes and the discussions around them on platform. We then do a public collaborative comms campaign where we ask people to suggest calls for funding proposals that match with the concept notes. 3. Next step: is follow up proposal development sprint for each concept cluser + the calls/opportunities for financing that are relevant for it. How: A number of concept notes + matching calls for submissions are selected for an event session where everyone leaves with a skeleanon2863106368 proposal fleshed out. 4. Follow up on platform where we have feedback from people from the community who have experience in evaluating proposals e.g Martin , Alberto, Marco Manca, Katja, and others if they are up for it.. They give partcipants feedback, ask questions etc. What do you guys think? @anon3554387720 @anon659222949 ?" 23,58564,2019-08-29T11:49:37.992Z,10450,0,15,14,1,1,0,23.0,58351,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:14, topic:10450""] In practice I thought maybe we can get together ~10 people in different areas who would want to spend 1-2 hours every month for 3 months or so to help them through that kickstarting process? [/quote] that's what we are here for :)" 24,58565,2019-08-29T11:54:44.274Z,10450,1,15,14,2,1,0,18.0,58528,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"[quote=""anon3554387720, post:20, topic:10450""] I added [a section about the needs ](https://www.notion.so/worldbrain/EdgeRyders-Hackathon-for-ethical-solutions-to-unethical-problems-de1d38b627d14e7dbaec9f6af8fe6f14#3c2555ba55124a47834da0d4350afb9d) in the notion document. @anon [/quote] I will also set up a sheet to input the needs projects wise. (link will follow). Regarding what is listed in the notion document: * You want 4 coaches, correct? * Are those to be there physically during the event or available for followup guidance online? * Do you have people in mind? * Do you have already an idea for an entity that would fit well to approach for sponsoring?" 25,58598,2019-08-30T08:53:26.789Z,10450,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,58531,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"Hello @anon3554387720, we will be able to explain the support for followup projects better in the call on Tuesday. Also, @anon831914980 shared this link and it might be interesting for you in this and general sense: https://www.ngi.eu/join-ngi/" 26,58619,2019-08-30T14:51:04.540Z,10450,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,57388,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,Details on the needs of planned events can be registered here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i5sOTG-zoRrLmACPe8eW62YFi5-xsz_aUSUlAqqsCo8/edit?usp=sharing 27,58694,2019-09-02T16:24:07.329Z,10450,0,15,14,1,0,0,38.0,58565,anon3554387720,anon1753543892,"> * You want 4 coaches, correct? More would be better, these were just ideas on the areas people could help. Generally anybody who thinks they could contribute to the goals of getting those projects to funding is welcome and appreciated as a coach > * Are those to be there physically during the event or available for followup guidance online? Not necessary, but of course the more people wanna join physically the better. Most important I find that they are available online in the forum and for calls to help the people in the process before and after the hackathon. > * Do you have people in mind? For some of the roles yes, also for some of the jury members. Will add them to a document. Where would that make sense? > * Do you have already an idea for an entity that would fit well to approach for sponsoring? No, not yet. Need to still do this. I think it would make sense to have a dedicated call for the hackathon after the call tomorrow and discuss anon2696444391 we approach it." 28,58697,2019-09-02T16:40:54.280Z,10450,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,58553,anon3554387720,anon3828707713,"I really like that process. Some thoughts: 1. Not sure if we can get a facilitator on (each) location, a 1-1 call online seems more feasible. What would that facilitator do at that stage in your view? 2. I just had the idea that the hackathon may be able to be repurposed to not necessarily coding, but writing a good proposal. Or the hackathon is used to build a part of the proposed project so that there is something to sanon2696444391. Always great with funders to see something tangible working. 3. I wonder if that many projects will apply that are worth clustering by topic for the purpose of suggesting opportunities for funding, as opposed to just suggesting opportunities that are specifically suited for them individually. In the clustering process I intuitively see more value to find collaboration potential between the projects themselves. However I think that this then is not really automatable. But that is just my hunch on the focus of clustering, i generally like the idea of clustering to find synergies." 29,58723,2019-09-03T14:15:20.982Z,10450,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,58697,anon1753543892,anon3554387720,"@anon3554387720, we had similar thoughts. after today I will schedule 1-1 calls with main facilitators and from those events, we can develop calls together to create topical event groups." 30,58884,2019-09-06T17:07:31.017Z,10450,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,57388,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"To everyone, the original post has been updated anon2373157426 a bit. 1. We now have the budget: 12 000 EUR + 2500 EUR for travelling to be shared by all events 2. Here is the form we developed in reaction to the questions coming up from your and our side to fill out with the details on your participations: https://ernordic.typeform.com/to/T5psAI" 31,59167,2019-09-11T17:03:52.790Z,10450,0,15,14,2,0,0,28.0,57388,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"**We are moving towards the next step now :)!** We have figured out the over all budget (12 000 EUR + 2500 EUR for travel) and now we have to plan and see anon2696444391 to distribute it and what we need to do to help each other realise the workshops, hackathons and talks. At this point do we need some more information from your side: At the very least we need to know: 1. Names of main organisers 2. Date 3. Title of the event 4. Short description (1-3 sentences) 5. How long is the event 6. How many people? 7. Where is the event? 8. What else do you need? You can quickly answer that in this sheet as soon as possible (this week!): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i5sOTG-zoRrLmACPe8eW62YFi5-xsz_aUSUlAqqsCo8/edit?usp=sharing HOWEVER, IT WOULD BE EVEN BETTER IF YOU FILL OUT THIS MORE DETAILED FORM: https://ernordic.typeform.com/to/T5psAI We developed this one specifically for the festival, taking into account the questions and needs that came up during the previous calls and discussions. We need this to be filled out by everyone contributing an event by the 20th of September! It is also a great help to develop your proposal post and/or prepare for the community call on the 17th of September 18:00 Brussels time: https://zoom.us/j/788229402 During that call everyone who wants will be given up to 5 minutes to present their idea and get feedback and support from others. This is a great opportunity to develop your idea further before the initial proposal deadline on the 20th. After that date we will start to distribute budget and helpers, and the sooner you are in this process, the better! Looking forward to your answers and to see you in the call!" 1,58814,2019-09-05T08:47:59.717Z,10688,1,11,10,8,0,0,47.2,58814,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"To make the transition away from the path we are on towards a stable and resilient planet we need to achieve prosperity as well as decarbonization. This relies on our making the necessary advances on three fronts such that they reinforce each other: Technology, policy and behavior change. There are a lot of interdependencies, known and unknown. So the necessary changes have to be made on all three fronts at the same time and in such a way(s) that progress in one reinforces/is aligned with progress in the other two. An obvious question: anon2696444391 to sustainably incubate work on building opensource, accessible technology solutions for environmental problems? My notes from a Techfestival 2019 session dedicated to this topic lead by Tristan and William who have founded and are running COACTlab, an incubator run out of Valladura campus - a building purchased by an architecture university to run an experiment in self-sufficiency. Social Agriculture Green fab lab workshop - connects it to global community and network List of projects coming out of Coactlab so far: Aquapioneers Romi - robotics for microfarming Moss Voltaics - using photosynthesis They asked: * **How to assess impact?** Two resources have been mentioned Look at the [Impact Measurement Project](https://impactmanagemeanon4079433411oject.com/) and [Public.io](http://public.io/). Also, this is a [follow up post on the topic](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/on-assessing-impact-and-what-anon1577251828-could-do-in-that-department/10708/6) in response to their question. * **How to make it work financially?** We are working on a sustainability model for openvillage which I will share in here when the first draft is ready. * **Which topics/issues to focus on?** I took down some quick [notes from the presentation and fishbowl on Impact Technologies](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/event-notes-unstructured-tech-moonshot-for-climate-change/10696) for tackling environmental problems. Will be cleaning them up into a post in the coming days. A summary of key points: * Key areas to focus on according to Owen Gaffney at Stockholm resilience centre: Energy supply, industry, buildings, transport, food consumption, agriculture and forestry * Benjamin: Innovation for Carbon Capture and reuse, as well as Lowering carbon emission Key input: * Focus on incubator for accessible environmental solutions - _put less communication emphasis on open source or non profit._ * The annual market of SDG solutions is 12 Trillion USD, huge market for investors to put money into but most of it tied to labs// research coming out of high tech in wealthy economies with advanced science and tech facilities - a lot will not be locked behind IP wall and not accessible to less wealthy. * Pick where you want to be focusing your efforts: According to Good Tech Lab you need technology, policy and behaviour change - and they need to reinforce each other. * Sustainability: Focus/think in terms of anon2696444391 I can build a community and get it to critical mass (e.g running a green fablab to plug it int network of fablabs. Incubator as a community builder *Impact: a) How many of similar projects did you inspire i.e Replication, if more similar incubators are set up elsewhere. b) can you build a model that can be reproduced elsewhere? 3) Size and engagement of community. What issue should they focus on for the first year? What should they name it? How do you fund it? We don't own the infrastructure, we are an organisation that rents the space from the university. Currently bootstrapping, paying for it ourselves. Ultimately; Getting people to help fund it through membership Follow up with: https://www.linkedin.com/in/manucb/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/iremtopcuoglu/ **Recommendations for setting up the incubator** What is your UVP with respect to high tech University/Labs? Next billion - accessible, cocreative, personal development - closer to folkhogskola as setting the foundations for prosperity. - Focus less on opensource and non-profit than on the mission and quantify it: solutions to sustainability, climate change and reaching 0 or even negative carbon emissions in a number of key aras: Food consumption, Transport, Agriculture, Energy etc (see - Make your values and red lines explicit -Enhancing the we not the me - a ""no ego"" concept as - circular economy - frugality - give to the land - land regeneration Topics: (augment with input from other discussion on moonshots: - Food waste - logistics and transportation of food - producing local - knowing what is in season - Deforestation: monitoring illefal logging leaves substances in water which you can trrack with sensors and notifyactivcists with Follow up with Coactlab/ William LLoyd George, Tristan about partnering with us * Participating in the Deep Green + Tech workshop in Berlin * Offering space to host the follow up retreat with larger group of people at their non-profit [incubator](https://www.coactlab.org/) for developing opensource, appropriate, technology solutions to environmental challenges. * Ideally signing up as Mentors for the OCI lab" 2,58850,2019-09-05T22:21:45.000Z,10688,1,10,9,1,0,0,42.0,58814,anon592838681,anon3828707713,"Long time no hear EdgePeoples, Getting far closer to centre these days eh? Such are the times. Interesting things afoot in Ireland between regenerative landtrusts, community ownership modelling, food commons at the Growery now I tegraring with local authorities, and so on and suchlike. Hope all's rosey on the mainland... ;)" 3,59135,2019-09-11T13:47:04.457Z,10688,0,6,5,1,1,0,6.2,58850,anon3379761435,anon592838681,"Hi @anon592838681, long time no see indeed. [quote=""anon592838681, post:2, topic:10688""] Getting far closer to centre these days eh? [/quote] We aim to connect center and edges.. this was always the goal. :slight_smile:" 1,58706,2019-09-03T11:30:02.231Z,10665,0,27,26,77,0,0,480.4,58706,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"![11|690x370](upload://noG1N9GFHwUpJZ9BwpOBiBFiIHp.png) # We have a free ticket to give away to https://techfestival.co/ ## Date: 5/9-7/9 (this week).
10 years after the last edition of Reboot festival closed doors, the organisers launched a new one with what looks like a worthy successor: https://medium.com/@anon Thomas Madsen-Mygdal, the driver behind the initiative, has kindly offered me a free ticket to this year's edition. I am personally indebted to for the impact Rebook has had in shaping my own approach to thinking about/around tech and society. And would love to pass it forward to someone who wants to go. **So we are giving away the ticket with some travel support (up to 200 Eur) in exchange for a post on the platform to share what you learn with people who cannot participate in person.** Like Yannick did for re:Publica: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/re-publica-what-i-learned-about-cities-as-open-systems-political-memes-makerplaces-and-migration-due-to-loss-of-habitat/5622 Let us know if you want to claim it via either a comment below or a [PM to me](https://anon1577251828.eu/u/anon3828707713). The ticket gets you entry to the event. It also enables you to: * Access all public events, talks, and exhibitions in the outdoor Festival Area * Access the Friday Party at H15 in the Meatpacking District * Get discounts on food and beverages at selected bars and restaurants.
_Ping @anon2863106368 @anon" 2,58717,2019-09-03T13:44:41.052Z,10665,1,21,20,1,0,0,74.2,58706,anon2863106368,anon3828707713,"I will attend Techfestival this week, and have ticket/invitation to the CPH150. Would be happy to meet up with other ER's in attendance. Will arrive in CPH tomorrow evening." 3,58724,2019-09-03T14:23:20.251Z,10665,0,21,20,2,0,0,29.2,58706,anon2945747231,anon3828707713,I wish I could join! But I am traveling to yerevan for a story with @anon 4,58738,2019-09-03T18:29:02.438Z,10665,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,58717,anon3828707713,anon2863106368,"I just booked accommodations, arrive on thursday and will be staying in Vesterbro. PM you my mobile so we can coordinate easily <3" 5,58767,2019-09-04T12:28:08.889Z,10665,1,14,13,1,0,0,57.8,58706,anon3523169996,anon3828707713,I live in Copenhagen and will participate in Techfestival as well. Would love to meet you and hear more about anon2696444391 you're involved with Edgeryders. 6,58774,2019-09-04T14:10:15.320Z,10665,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,58767,anon3828707713,anon3523169996,hey! would love to. PM me your signal/telegram/phone nr so we can coordinate? 7,58775,2019-09-04T14:17:58.005Z,10665,2,14,13,2,0,0,97.8,58706,anon2682865457,anon3828707713,"@anon3828707713 If there's still a ticket available I would love to come as well! I'd be traveling from Aarhus to go :) Had to make sure my schedule was free before saying anything. Let me know :sparkles:" 8,58776,2019-09-04T14:23:02.192Z,10665,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,58775,anon3828707713,anon2682865457,"Yep, you can have it - Moving to DM for details" 9,58787,2019-09-04T16:13:50.238Z,10665,0,12,11,3,0,0,32.4,58706,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,It turns out that I can use the same code to secure several tickets. So if anyone still wants to go and doesnt have a ticket you can ping me. 10,59023,2019-09-10T08:48:49.290Z,10665,0,10,9,33,0,0,197.0,58775,anon3828707713,anon2682865457,"was great meeting your @anon2682865457 and @anon I have put together some notes from two sessions here and will be posting a general reflection in the coming days - would be good to hear your own thoughts/learnings: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/event-notes-unstructured-tech-moonshot-for-climate-change/10696/2 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/draft-post-anon2696444391-to-build-an-incubator-for-accessible-environmental-solutions/10688/3 Also- I asked Alberto to share some reflections/experiences from having explored impact assessment when it comes to ecological issues: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/on-assessing-impact-and-what-anon1577251828-could-do-in-that-department/10708/7 These are realted to the ongoing discussion around deep green and tech (and the festival session that is coming out of it) https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-internet-of-biases-and-other-terrible-ways-to-open-a-conversation/10190 https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-tech-workshop/10191" 1,59021,2019-09-10T08:30:50.844Z,10728,0,3,2,4,0,0,20.6,59021,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"Hello everyone, This is the document we use to plan for the costs. The way it works is that every local event organiser leaves a comment below containing the list of resources for their event, and estimated costs of each. This enables us to collectively keep an eye on the overall budget so that we can discuss and then and then upload into the collaborative budgeting before you spend any money. Then @anon1753543892 @anon2794261635 and myself go through the budget document, do some admin adjustment of budget posts and explain the process for anon2696444391 to upload the proof of expenses in order to be reimbursed for them. If you have any questions please do not hesitate to post them in a comment below.... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IIk5nCMebzEFqJ3ik4pp9vR8f65Wm5GuVCyUPgQ-o-Q/edit?usp=sharing" 1,58953,2019-09-09T11:52:51.970Z,10712,1,13,12,70,0,0,382.6,58953,anon2616197748,anon2616197748,"This looks interesting, especially for folks able to stay in Berlin when it's on. A residency at the Trust Coworking space to explore an alternative to dominance by the big US corps (i.e FAANG) or China's equivalents: > The European Union currently finds itself in a peculiar situation. Chinese and American digital infrastructure monopolies are solidifying, increasing the friction between San Francisco flavoured platform-capitalism, Beijing’s Great Firewall, and supposed European values for taxation, privacy, the inclusion of migrants, labour protection, housing rights and environmentalism. > > From October through December 2019, Trust will explore narratives and projects that reimagine the European Stack* as a political project. What is the way forward for pan-european digital infrastructure? Could the European Stack be a project about, and model for, a solidarity-based politics? You can see more here: https://trust.support/posts/europeanstack/ They also offer an interesting reading group: http://trg.boneless.technology/ This is likely interesting in the context of all this NGI chatter." 2,58955,2019-09-09T11:58:34.143Z,10712,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,58953,anon3828707713,anon2616197748,ping @anon850704935 for the #counanon2863106368me list 3,58965,2019-09-09T13:24:54.651Z,10712,0,7,6,2,1,0,41.4,58953,anon2197402769,anon2616197748,"[quote=""anon2616197748, post:1, topic:10712""] i.e FAANG [/quote] Just a quick feedback: As a IT specialist I usually hear and speak about _GAFAM_ (google apple facebook amazon **microsoft**). Never heard of _FAANG_ (facebook apple amazon **netflix** google). A quick google (yes...) search landed me on an article about FAANG. It seems that FAANG comes more from an investor perspective (yay, make money with FAANG), where GAFAM is more common in the activist scene (lets bring down money-maker GAFAM)... super-simplified, but I thought I might share my insights." 1,58922,2019-09-08T21:53:35.357Z,10704,0,18,17,3,0,0,48.6,58922,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Hello all, today I had a bit of time and decided to look into the state of the conversation networks of the two main projects Edgeryders in involved in at the moment. * The NGI Forward one (in green) has 110 unique contributors. There are 1,255 posts in 116 topics, with 157K words. There are 338 unique edges in the corresponding social network. * The POPREBEL one (in red) has 85 unique contributors. There are 572 posts in 139 topics, with 156K words. There are 229 unique edges in the corresponding social network. * 17 people (in gray) participated in both conversations. ![image|690x516](upload://n9ZZcX4XLvMJqmutXFjCVe9NzHj.png)" 2,58935,2019-09-09T08:38:47.024Z,10704,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,58922,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,thanks - very useful 1,58462,2019-08-27T13:24:18.236Z,10626,0,24,23,5,0,0,74.8,58462,anon1753543892,anon1753543892," # **Dear Community members involved and interested in the Edgeryders Festival,** # We are meeting up on *Tuesday the 3rd of September 18:00 Brussels time* to update each other and discuss our ideas for the Edgeryders festival with a focus on NGI related projects and anon2696444391 to help each other to realise them. Join the call here: https://zoom.us/j/560175544 # You can join this call no matter if you have been involved in any previous discussions or not it is a great place for first or second steps in developing your Edgeryders festival participation or project. The deadline for proposals has been moved to the 20th of September but the sooner you start to post ideas here https://anon1577251828.eu/t/register-for-anon1577251828-festival/10581 or just sign up your information in this [sheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D_CMPm43FDXg5EE_5zDk6C_A_yG6s25HrH4wPuRRP7I/edit?usp=sharing), the better we can plan and help each other to realise amazing events! # Looking forward to talking to you!" 2,58466,2019-08-27T13:55:22.868Z,10626,2,17,16,1,0,0,63.4,58462,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"@anon3203746736, @anon2945747231, @anon320602330, @anon3554387720, @anon831914980, @anon2616197748, @anon1608948641, @anon3747875924, @anon2682865457, @anon3828707713, @anon3086952555, @anon3352795496" 3,58489,2019-08-27T20:10:16.718Z,10626,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,58466,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,Ill be there 4,58498,2019-08-28T06:21:09.165Z,10626,1,14,13,1,0,0,27.8,58466,anon831914980,anon1753543892,Thanks @anon1753543892 Feel free to spread the word in the events section of NGI Community https://spaces.fundingbox.com/c/ngi-next-generation-internet/collections/events 5,58523,2019-08-28T12:22:25.927Z,10626,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,58498,anon1753543892,anon831914980,"@anon831914980, this link sends me to a side asking for a login, could you explain it a bit more? What is it for, who can use it? Thank you very much" 6,58583,2019-08-30T06:00:01.158Z,10626,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,58523,anon831914980,anon1753543892,"@anon1753543892 the link leads to NGI Community which is different to anon1577251828 platform as explained here: https://www.ngi.eu/join-ngi/ NGI requests for login, but it is open to everyone, although focuses on providing funding opportunities and connections to innovators, entrepreneurs and professionals" 7,58596,2019-08-30T08:50:39.527Z,10626,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,58583,anon1753543892,anon831914980,Thank you very much! 8,58693,2019-09-02T15:59:27.074Z,10626,0,12,11,1,0,0,52.4,58462,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"**We have pinned down the overall budget for the festival now and will be able to start discussing anon2696444391 to allocate it in this call, so come and join in the discussion!** @anon2616197748, @anon3554387720, @anon3747875924, @anon1608948641, @anon3352795496, @anon320602330, @anon3005461236, @anon" 1,55432,2019-06-19T13:21:33.050Z,10191,0,36,35,134,0,0,782.2,55432,anon3352795496,anon3352795496," Hi, We had a great visit to the Reef in Brussels last weekend and we discussed coming up with a workshop to lead into a day conference focused on exploring 'deep green tech'. The aim would be to get a deeper understanding of what it means for tech products and organisations to be deep green and ecologically sustainable. We'd explore **both** the teams/organisations creating the tech as well as the tech itself, investigating the question: How can a startup structure _and_ the technology it produces be deep green, ecologically sustainable and regenerative? We would invite a group of technologists and social entrepreneurs to feed into the discussion. We would lead an introductory session to: + bring people into a present, grateful, connected and creative space. + confront collapse and what it means for tech projects. + to present and discuss (both intellectually and through activities) a series of guiding 'deep green' principles related to biomimicry / bio-harmony (Examples of these principles are: centralised vs distributed vs decentralisation, holarchy, coevolution, circular resource loops, subsidiarity, meta-stability, dividuation / integration, agent centric). We could then move on to a series of more specific sessions about the applications of these principles to specific areas of tech and organisation design. The outcome might be a collectively created based report on deep green tech. Would be great to get some feedback on this idea. We are happy to make any changes! Thanks, Julyan and Will" 2,55455,2019-06-19T21:31:09.990Z,10191,0,31,30,1,0,0,26.2,55432,anon3203746736,anon3352795496,"Welcome. And that sounds great. With an emphasis on deep. The greenness or lack of it in tech is hidden from most of us. Or maybe we just don't look closely enough, or know where to look to find out." 3,55477,2019-06-20T09:28:31.021Z,10191,0,30,29,1,0,0,26.0,55432,anon3379761435,anon3352795496,"Hi @anon3352795496 (Julyan and... Davey? or Will?), it was lovely to have you. This conversation opener was requested by @anon3828707713, as I recall it. Me, I had promised to give you (well, Thomas was the one who seemed most interested, but I am not aware he made himself known on this website) some links on the Economic Science Fiction Seminar. Here goes: * [Intro](/t/8534) * [Econ-SF works wiki](/t/8582) * [The economics of Cory Doctorow's Walkaway](/t/8828) * [Whole Econ-SF forum](/c/research-network/economic-sci-fi)" 4,55478,2019-06-20T09:28:39.360Z,10191,0,28,27,2,0,0,15.6,55432,anon3828707713,anon3352795496,"Hi guys super nice seeing you here, welcome :slight_smile: There's a thread where we are discussing this - could be a a good context to plug in the workshop and pull in people to tweak it and partner around running it in different places? https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-internet-of-biases-and-other-terrible-ways-to-open-a-conversation/10190/5" 5,55545,2019-06-21T09:44:56.240Z,10191,1,26,25,1,0,0,15.2,55432,anon294806887,anon3352795496,"Hei hei, welcome to our other home, this time on the web! If we'd like the workshop to end with a report - it means there's a lot of ground to cover - even if we come in with a summary of existing conversations happening online. This sounds more like a harmonious hackathon - we had this idea a few years back, for quiet and healthy events where real work would be done. Maybe there's ideas in there which we could borrow. Alternatively, if it's more of a statement - the workshop could be like a mini exhibit to fill our brains with a future of what is possible, and let it rest for a while, then work on a manifesto online. Either way, there isnt a lot you can do in a day... so format aligned with expectations is crucial imho. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/harmonious-hackathons/2265" 6,55861,2019-06-28T14:31:01.130Z,10191,0,24,23,1,0,0,9.8,55545,anon3828707713,anon294806887,"Meanwhile in Australia.... this can serve as an interesting case to learn from for anon2696444391 to go from workshop to engagement to action in tech community https://www.filmink.com.au/public-notice/2040-reaches-1-million-australian-box-office-hits-strides-regenerative-programs "" > "" Most importantly, anon2696444391ever, are the numerous initiatives beyond the film that are now in action following its release: > * **Seaweed: The next (re)generation –** A crowdfunding marine permaculture initiative working with The Intrepid Foundation, Climate Foundation and the University of Tasmania to regenerate marine ecosystems in Tasmania and sequester carbon from the atmosphere has raised over $70,000 from public donations, all of which will be matched dollar for dollar by the Intrepid Foundation. [www.theintrepidfoundation.org/seaweed-regeneration](http://www.theintrepidfoundation.org/seaweed-regeneration) > * **RedGrid intelligent energy grid technology –** the film’s impact team has supported the Australian intelligent energy grid company, RedGrid, to help realise anon2696444391 the technology featured in the film can be applied in Australia. *2040* collaborated with RedGrid to open the opportunity for crowd-sourced investment from the Australian public; in 24 hours they received over $550,000 of expressions of interest. [www.redgrid.io/investors/](http://www.redgrid.io/investors/) > * **Ecosia** – a search engine that uses its profits to plant trees in seventeen countries around the world saw a significant amount of Australian traffic generated from the *2040* impact campaign. This has resulted in over 1,000 browser installs, over 100,000 searches and 2,719 new trees planted by this traffic. [www.ecosia.org](http://www.ecosia.org) > * **Cool Australia** – *2040* ’s educational outreach partner, has had 2,875 lesson plan downloads of the initial thirteen available lessons from schools and educators around Australia. An additional five more lessons for secondary science programs have now become available, and the uptake from schools across Australia is expected to continue to grow. [www.coolaustralia.org/whats-your-2040/](http://www.coolaustralia.org/whats-your-2040/)""" 7,56079,2019-07-02T14:35:46.245Z,10191,1,21,20,1,0,0,14.2,55432,anon294806887,anon3352795496,"Hei @anon3352795496 curious if you've had time to look at these bunch of references? Perhaps we could have a call with more people from the community who have already given input on green trustmarks and could be the conversation starterers at the event? How about dedicating a community call like those planned by @anon3203746736 @anon1753543892 to make the next steps in planning the event?" 8,56168,2019-07-04T15:33:00.038Z,10191,0,22,21,2,0,0,29.4,55432,anon3379761435,anon3352795496,"For reference: @anon3352795496 have dreamed up [a workshop on Reclaiming Utopia](https://www.thephoenixproject.site/reclaimingutopia/), developed as part of their work with Extinction Rebellion in London. This is also useful for the #research-network:economic-sci-fi seminar. @anon3822657227" 9,57483,2019-08-02T12:45:31.414Z,10191,1,20,19,1,0,0,14.0,56079,anon1753543892,anon294806887,Still interest for a community call on this topic? @anon3352795496 would you be up to feature in it/prepare some questions and invite some people as a test for the workshop? Maybe in September? 10,57498,2019-08-02T14:25:06.108Z,10191,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,57483,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,would be great as everything is lined up for doing the workshop they proposed in Brussels this fall 11,58004,2019-08-15T12:33:55.670Z,10191,2,18,17,1,0,0,63.6,55432,anon320602330,anon3352795496,"Excited to see a thread on this topic! I'm really interested in anon2696444391 to combat the climate emergency. For people in the tech sector, I can recommend joining the [Climate Act Tech group](https://climateaction.tech/), which is sharing a lot of great tips and immediate actions. I also recommend Chris Adams' amazing work threading these various discourses and tools. His recent talk, [When Software is Heating the World](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/15bP7z8Whyj1gIK67KMyU511vp7mYF59dAGXMBPFMVWk/edit#slide=id.g5d9e2f62d2_0_226), is a particularly good recap of the climate crisis and what the tech sector can and should do." 12,58014,2019-08-15T17:14:44.016Z,10191,0,17,16,2,0,0,28.4,58004,anon1753543892,anon320602330,"Dear @anon320602330! Thank you for this comment and the links in it. Would you like to get involved with some deep green tech events and projects in the Edgeryders NGI festival? Have a look here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-festival-november-19-29-invitation-to-participate-in-co-designing-the-next-gen-internet-track-of-the-program/10450 ## and if you have time on Tuesday 18-19, join us on the community call to discuss anon2696444391 to best represent those topics in the festival: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-call-20th-of-august-your-chance-to-shape-the-anon1577251828-ngi-festival/10549 ## (here is the link to the call directly: https://zoom.us/j/592769960)" 13,58372,2019-08-26T10:36:33.433Z,10191,3,14,13,1,0,0,37.8,55432,anon3352795496,anon3352795496,"Hi @anon294806887 @anon1753543892 @anon3379761435 @anon3828707713, Ah so sorry to have missed your messages. For some reason they were going into my email spam folder. I definitely could come to the community call in September. What's the date / time of it? And definitely keen to be involved in the Edgeryders Festival. I can elaborate on our ideas for the Deep Green Tech workshop in the community call. Are you also suggesting we have a community call particularly for this topic? Maybe we could run that after the wider community call? Sorry again for not being responsive..." 14,58414,2019-08-26T17:21:46.375Z,10191,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,58372,anon1753543892,anon3352795496,"@anon3352795496, great! We are looking forward to hear more about you work shop on the 3rd of September 18:00 Brussels time in the zoom community call and it would be great to set up a follow up call for deep green festival topics in detail with you within the following 2 weeks :)." 15,58417,2019-08-26T17:44:29.976Z,10191,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,58372,anon3828707713,anon3352795496,maybe @anon3197437925 wants a heads up about the spam folder issue for notifications that @anon3352795496 point to above? 16,58418,2019-08-26T17:56:07.878Z,10191,1,14,13,1,1,0,12.8,58372,anon3197437925,anon3352795496,"[quote=""anon3352795496, post:13, topic:10191""]your messages […] were going into my email spam folder[/quote] Edgeryders IT admin here. If you still have one of these e-mails that was accidentally classified as spam and know anon2696444391 to forward e-mails as attachments (not ""inline""), could you forward one to me at anon3197437925@anon1577251828.eu? I'd be interested to analyze what caused this so we can improve our e-mail delivery in the future …" 17,58455,2019-08-27T13:12:06.916Z,10191,0,16,15,33,0,0,183.2,58418,anon3352795496,anon3197437925,Hi @anon3197437925. I've forwarded it to you! 18,58568,2019-08-29T13:29:21.615Z,10191,0,7,6,0,0,0,16.4,55432,anon1753543892,anon3352795496,"@anon3352795496, do you have a copyright-free title image to go with your first post in this thread? That helps us when pushing the discussion for further engagement on social media, which we would like to do in preparation for the workshop development for the festival :). Thank you" 19,58585,2019-08-30T07:38:32.346Z,10191,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,55432,anon3554654177,anon3352795496,Is there a date and location yet? 20,58586,2019-08-30T07:49:46.005Z,10191,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,58004,anon3828707713,anon320602330,"hey hey :) @anon2616197748 organised a dinner in Berlin but you were out of town. D But now you guys are connected here. Question - are you still in touch with previous Moz fellows like @anon On a side note: Dunno if I ever mentioned it but found out from a friend that the co-working space someone rented for that Moz/Wikimedia meetup aaages ago was/is also an S&M venue once a month: Knotty am Kotti :)) Remembered it while thinking about possible venues for the workshop in Berlin." 1,58262,2019-08-22T11:13:16.277Z,10599,1,17,16,16,0,0,118.4,58262,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"*Written after the first periodic meeting of the ethnography team. It was dedicated to reviewing the very first iteration of the codebook for the NGI Forward study.* Ladies, color me impressed. It was fascinating to watch you work. In my interpretation, what's happening is: 1. The rationale for coding choices becomes explicit. Accountability of the research work increases. 1. You are now building small networks of codes in your heads, and using them as information structures to store ethnographic evidence in. The lovely bit is that these networks are open: they encode the possibility that parts of the corpus _you have not yet coded_ might connect to them, thereby generating additional meaning by triangulation. Example: you said that the code `regulating 5G` should be split into `regulation` co-occuring with `5G`, because other parts of the conversation might evoke regulating something else, for example `recommendation algorithms`. If this is indeed the case, you are able to see the discussion on regulation on a broader level, as `regulation` will then link to both `5G` and with `recommendation algorithms` in the semantic network. At a high level of interpretation, this ends up allowing the space for regulation, as the community sees it, to emerge. 1. The Codebook is now on a GDoc. By doing this shoot-from-the-hip prototyping you are zeroing in on functionalities that future iterations of Open Ethnographer needs. The fact that you use them is a strong indication that you need them, as in really need them. And speaking of this: @anon3197437925, it seems the ethno team uses comments a lot. They took the trouble of rebuilding the whole codebook on GDocs, and it looks like this: I think, anon2696444391ever, that the codebook should be automatically generated by OE. The codebook proper is a list of codes (that are all in the database) followed by their respective descriptions (also in the database). Can we make them commentable? Or maybe just generate codebooks that can be exported? @anon2559300400 @anon4046128282 @anon3708943593" 2,58266,2019-08-22T11:46:31.678Z,10599,1,14,13,2,0,0,47.8,58262,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:24, topic:10242""]The codebook proper is a list of codes […] followed by their respective descriptions (also in the database). Can we make them commentable?[/quote] How about a butanon2863106368 Discuss this code on a code's page that would create a new Discourse topic and link it to the code? Then discussion can happen on Discourse as usual, and people would be notified as usual. (We don't want to re-implement discussions, as it would not become as good as the Discourse discussions.)" 3,58278,2019-08-22T13:53:59.085Z,10599,0,13,12,2,0,0,27.6,58262,anon3708943593,anon3379761435,"Hi Alberto, great to e-meet you today. And very fun to read your reflections and encouragements of our work. Always here to chat more about anon2696444391 we can translate some of our current mechanisms to fit within the OE platform! Cheers, anon3708943593" 4,58291,2019-08-23T06:34:21.857Z,10599,1,10,9,3,1,0,22.0,58266,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:25, topic:10242""] How about a butanon2863106368 on a code’s page “start a discussion about this code” that would create a new Discourse topic and link it to the code? [/quote] This sounds like a great idea. Let's hammer it into a proper metadata strategy for the data of SSNA studies. This ties into [this issue](https://github.com/anon1577251828/discourse/issues/211): I hope to convince you, @anon3197437925, that we do need a database entity to refer to a whole SSNA study. The reason is **metadata**, which are essential to understanding and reusing the data. Some metadata can be automatically generated from the data: for example, the duration of the conversation can be inferred from the timestamps of the posts; the duration of the coding from the timestamps of the annotations; the number of researchers involved from the names of the annotations' authors. But others cannot, specifically methodological choices informing the coding (""we use a grounded theory approach..."", ""we chose to use names of individual technologies, and even of specific applications, as *in vivo* codes. This is because the study's ultimate purpose is to contribute to shaping technology policy..."". I find it useful to think about these things in terms of exporting a whole project for safekeeping on a repository such as Zenodo. What would a complete export look like? The ethnography proper would have: * pseudonymized topics and posts * annotations thereof, which include the associated codes * the codebook, automatically generated from the annotations and codes. It includes the discussion part as suggested by Matt. * methodological notes. @anon2559300400, @anon For the SSN proper, we could take two roads. The first is this: there is no need to export anything, because the SSN adds no information to the coded data. It is simply a network representation thereof. Interested researchers can rebuild it from the ethno data. Alternatively, we could add to our data either the Neo4j file powering Graphryder (after pseudonymization), or a docker file containing the whole Graphryder shebang. I think I am going to fork the final part of this discussion and move it to #ioh:workspace, so other partners in the consortium are more exposed to it." 5,58306,2019-08-23T13:33:39.123Z,10599,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,58262,anon3708943593,anon3379761435,"Hi Alberto, Thanks for starting this conversation. I am not (yet) familiar enough with the specific functioning of OE to comment on the suggestions. But I am very interested in the process of capturing and analysing the meta-data. I was wondering anon2696444391 meta-data is currently collected and used? And anon2696444391 it plays into the creation of the semantic network, if at all? Cheers, anon3708943593" 6,58312,2019-08-23T15:04:07.210Z,10599,0,9,8,1,1,0,21.8,58291,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:4, topic:10599""]we do need a database entity to refer to a whole SSNA study[/quote] Can be done. There could be another menu item ""Studies"" in the Open Ethnographer interface, at the top. So: ""Overview, Studies, Codes, Topics, Annotations, …"". A study record would be anon2373157426 simple: 1. Field for the name of a Discourse tag that defines the study content. 2. Field for a link to a wiki with methodological notes. 3. Export butanon2863106368. ""Study"" would then also be available as a filter in the Codes, Topics and Annotations views of Open Ethnographer. Which sounds useful. If that sounds reasonable, make a Github issue for this feature request. We'll see when it can be implemented (related to available budget). I'm not too much in favor of this feature as I'd rather like to slowly transform Open Ethnographer into a generic annotation plugin for Discourse (""Annotator.js for Discourse""). That would make it useful beyond the narrow scope of online ethnography. ""Study"" is rather only useful for online ethnography, but this screen could simply be hidden in the more generic annotation solution that I have in mind …" 7,58322,2019-08-24T09:32:53.363Z,10599,1,7,6,1,1,0,11.4,58306,anon3379761435,anon3708943593,"[quote=""anon3708943593, post:5, topic:10599""] I was wondering anon2696444391 meta-data is currently collected and used? And anon2696444391 it plays into the creation of the semantic network, if at all? [/quote] Corinne, AFAIK your field (like most of the humanities) has a very casual attitude with respect to documenting research. Exact reproducibility in a quantitative sense is obviously out of the question, so many scholars decide they have no duty to make the reasoning leading to their papers transparent. So, we have no best practice to fall on. The main epistemological move behind SSNA is to treat conversational exchanges as data. That makes it natural to adopt the culture of data anon3983078393ship that comes from different communities, in my case the open data community. When we documented OpenCare, it worked like this. 1. At the beginning of the project, we wrote a [data management plan](https://github.com/opencarecc/opencare-data-documentation/blob/master/Data%20management%20plan/Data_in_Opencare.pdf). This type of document is now a requirement for EU-funded research. 1. Graphryder fetches the data from the anon1577251828.eu database via API. So, we [documented the API itself](/t/7904). This is our main metadata repository, in that database entity are exemplified, witjh the indication of the fields they contain and an explanation thereof (unless the name of the field is itself explanatory). 1. We then exported the data in JSON format, uploaded them on Zenodo. The Zenodo record contains links to the API documentation: https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.1215979 Do you think it is adequate?" 8,58348,2019-08-25T19:19:22.406Z,10599,1,7,6,1,0,0,26.4,58322,anon3708943593,anon3379761435,"Hi Alberto, Thank you for explaining. That makes a lot of sense and I agree it is important to document the research process. In our case, we have started to do that by writing down our coding memos in which we explain why and anon2696444391 we make decisions, as well as ask each other questions. As @anon2559300400 mentioned we plan to publish these regularly on the platform. One of the things I was struck by in your initial email was the capture of data with regards to time spent on the platform (""for example, the duration of the conversation can be inferred from the timestamps of the posts; the duration of the coding from the timestamps of the annotations; the number of researchers involved from the names of the annotations’ authors""). I was wondering to what extend there had been an epistemic-level conversation about what this kind of data does and does not capture? Because time-stamps are only partial data, in the sense that a 2 hour coding session on one thread could tell you: 1. it was long, 2. it was complicated, or 3. it was interrupted by, the need to read up, (grab a coffee), go back to some literature, 4. some other reason entirely etc. etc. I think this might be an interesting conversation to circle back to once we get to a stage of (meta) analysis of such data. anyways, just my .2 cents! Have a wonderful Sunday! Cheers, Corinne" 9,58350,2019-08-25T21:10:19.590Z,10599,1,7,6,1,1,0,26.4,58348,anon3379761435,anon3708943593,"[quote=""anon3708943593, post:8, topic:10599""] I was wondering to what extend there had been an epistemic-level conversation about what this kind of data does and does not capture? [/quote] None at all. It is my experience with data analysis that there are rapidly decreasing returns to model sophistication. And anyway, we have no theory to interpret exact information on the length of writing a contribution, even if there were a cheap way to obtain this information. I would simply use the timestamps to compute the time period in which the conversation took place, and use it as a descriptor _of the corpus_, not of each individual contribution. ""The conversation took place from `timestamp(earliest post)` to `timestamp(latest post)`.""" 10,58395,2019-08-26T13:43:54.873Z,10599,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,58350,anon3708943593,anon3379761435,"Got it! That makes sense. I was interested because Mia and I have a good friend who does great PhD research on the dangers of conflating timestamps with credibility (in her case she researches harassment reporting apps in the context of US campus rape culture). So my question was more aimed at avoiding that conflation pitfall rather than complicating our current data analysis model. Hope that makes sense! Cheers," 11,58401,2019-08-26T14:35:47.784Z,10599,1,7,6,1,1,0,26.4,58395,anon3379761435,anon3708943593,"[quote=""anon3708943593, post:10, topic:10599""] she researches harassment reporting apps in the context of US campus rape culture [/quote] OK... that's a context in which an investment in more precise modelling actually makes plenty of sense. We do low stakes stuff (praise the gods). Whether the online conversation started in January or March 2019 does not really affect the validity of our results. So we can afford not to care too much." 12,58530,2019-08-28T14:12:30.592Z,10599,0,7,6,3,0,0,16.4,58401,anon3708943593,anon3379761435,"Well - the interesting thing about her research results is that such precise modelling can actually be harmful to survivors, because it moves the credibility of their personal experience and story to the timing of their timestamps. So really the argument I am trying to make is that timestamps should be taken with a grain of salt, but I guess that worry is moot in this case :)" 1,58482,2019-08-27T18:24:05.532Z,10631,1,19,18,8,0,0,78.8,58482,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"The mighty Vinay Gupta, incidentally (or not) co-founder of Edgeryders as @anon > Many people sense huge economic opportunities from straightening up the identity mess and making things work, but we have to be sure the solutions proposed do not simply become the next generation of problems. I am not buying 100% into his proposals (nor am I particularly qualified to), but, as far as I can see, he does have some good points. What do you think, @anon3554654177? https://medium.com/humanizing-the-singularity/part-i-are-you-sure-you-exist-we-are-5cfe13ab488c" 2,58484,2019-08-27T18:46:28.000Z,10631,1,19,18,1,0,0,13.8,58482,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Hi Alberto, I agree fullly with the quote that you highlight. I will read and get back on this. For now I want to say that th ultimate e objective is to break ‘identity’: Identity is thus distributed over architecture, service, and phone, signed in digital signatures, federated and attribute-based only. A large number of technical (IoT), financial (blockchain) and semantic (AI) experts see the need to move from the present fixed-identity paradigms to more flexible or fluid frameworks of “entitlements”, to allow the formulation of context-specific and attribute-based identities. Let’s focus on that vision and build a new smart social contract. It will bring hope and hope is what drives real change and society forward. Technically it can be operationalised in a fully open-source hardware and software environment. The hardware part needs to be procured from the EU industry. The operating system, zenroom,[1] is being developed in the EU project DECODE.[2] It forms the heart, a virtual machine running embedded in a chip in the triangle: device (EU passport), embedded SIM cards in services (wearables, home, connected car, and smart city), and infrastructure (routers, 5G base stations)." 3,58488,2019-08-27T20:01:14.086Z,10631,1,17,16,1,1,0,13.4,58484,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"[quote=""anon3554654177, post:2, topic:10631""] A large number of technical (IoT), financial (blockchain) and semantic (AI) experts see the need to move from the present fixed-identity paradigms to more flexible or fluid frameworks of “entitlements”, to allow the formulation of context-specific and attribute-based identities. [/quote] He seems to agree on that. But he argues that is still anon2373157426 hard to do, *when planning for security on a long time horizon*. > [...] something that’s a anon2488317424 less about storing the entirety of our being on a permanent record, but more focussed on disclosing the minimum required for people to be able to do business (or other critical functions) together. > >Maybe information is partitioned: your school grades, but not your name, all separated with a zero knowledge proof. If you have to prove that those are, in fact, your grades — well, that’s what that public key is for. You demonstrate possession of the relevant private key — you know the secret — without revealing the key. Every piece of personal information about you is stored with a different public key: you have a big fat keyring, and each key reveals only a single fact. > > And maybe those keys have blind signatures or proxies or similar arrangements which prevent somebody noticing that Applicant for Job 1 has the same “see my proven grades” key as Applicant for Job 2. We are not helpless in this mess: a certain perspicacity and awareness of anon2696444391 long time is, anon2696444391 fast things pass, and the sheer complexity of the upcoming 21st century leads to a sagacious approach to information partitioning, database translucency, use of temporary credentials for passing needs, being economic with disclosures, even guarded. These trends are very different to what has become normative in the social media age in the liberal democracies which are still, just barely, the majority of the internet. But **this kind of blind trust that the data you publish will never, ever be used against you is very much a product of liberalism**. People from countries with more to fear, or cultures which were ruled by aggressive empires, have anon2373157426 different norms when it comes to personal disclosure." 4,58493,2019-08-27T21:23:16.000Z,10631,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,58488,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Yes, these thoughts are very enlightening and necessary to address. There is no one size fits all, there is no ‘global’, there is no ’solution’. It is all part of ongoing praxis that will be dynamic and needs to be able to change with the ‘extra’ and serendipity that is happening because of the technologies and analytics seeing patterns difficult to see from a human time frame and perspective. On community: Accountability over anonymity characterises this approach as it underlies society in the 21st century itself. Tokenised trust is a key feature but only in the actual locality where face-to-face interaction can occur and communities of people work and live together. Maybe we can have a session on this during the Edgeryders Festival, an open discussion? Very happy to be part of that, Greetings, Rob" 1,52812,2019-04-24T21:12:00.109Z,9797,0,25,24,23,0,0,120.0,52812,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"> Is this what we want: to let them get away with it, and sit back and play with our phones as this darkness falls? But OK, regulate. How would it work? Does anyone have any clue? https://www.ted.com/talks/carole_cadwalladr_facebook_s_role_in_brexit_and_the_threat_to_democracy?utm_campaign=tedspread&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare" 2,52816,2019-04-24T23:14:20.928Z,9797,1,25,24,1,0,0,105.0,52812,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"### Regulators will regulate (once they get started) Mmh, ""regulate"", really? I really hope there are enough outspoken tech-libertarian and crypto-anarchist users of the early Internet left, who will not fall for regulation as a solution. As we have just recently seen in [the lost fight against upload filters in the EU](/t/9649), regulators have an unsatiable appetite to churn out more regulation, in favour of whoever lobbies them around, once they discover another domain that is responsive to regulation. Innovative cryptocurrency and blockchain projects are doomed as well once governments discover ways to regulate there. (That space is admittedly a bloody Wild West scenario right now, but why not. At least it's innovative!) ### Too big to exist So if regulation can not save but only destroy the Internet we loved, what then? In very short: everything that is large enough to cause serious social issues (like, well, Facebook in this case) should either (1) not exist at all or (2) be public infrastructure, preferably distributed and open source, and certainly not in private hands or (3) consist of small federated units so it cannot cause such serious problems. ### The case against advertising And while we are at it: most issues with tech giants someanon2696444391 revolve around the use and abuse of advertising. Both in the case of Facebook and Brexit, and in the conflict between publishers and Google over the share of Internet advertisement revenue (which is behind the whole upload filter and link tax debate of the EU copyright reform). Now advertisement is organized bullshitting and misleading of people anyway, and the Brexit campaign example makes the hypocrisy of political leaders blatantly obvious: in their eyes, organized bullshitting of people for economic growth is fine (even though overconsumption means ecological destruction, but who cares) but organized bullshitting of people for other causes is ""a threat to democracy""!? So if we want to save the Internet, and a good part of the natural world alongside, let's get rid of advertising altogether, both online, in print, on TV and in public space, whether for products or political parties. It will create some disruption, but the Internet will find other business models, no worries. To get rid of advertising online, I am even willing to accept a tiny bit of regulation: all major browsers must come with an ad-blocker enabled by default.   (**P.S.:** Re-reading this, I like my style of writing when I'm angry :laughing: It sounds a bit like @anon" 3,52834,2019-04-25T13:44:30.568Z,9797,2,19,18,1,1,0,78.8,52816,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:2, topic:9797""] In very short: everything that is large enough to cause serious social issues (like, well, Facebook in this case) should either (1) not exist at all or (2) be public infrastructure, preferably distributed and open source, and certainly not in private hands or (3) consist of small federated units so it cannot cause such serious problems. [/quote] 1 is regulation. In fact it is *the* regulation, the nuclear trigger under the fanon2945747231r of antitrust authorities, [since 1890](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act_of_1890#Monopoly). The concept is that of ""dominant position"". Once a company attains a dominant position in a market, it can be forced to break up into smaller companies. This is what happened under the Carter administration in America to AT&T (""Ma Bell""), forced to decompose into regional companies (""Baby Bells""). That does not happen by chance, or divine intervention, but by a court applying a piece of legislation. 2 is nationalization, and also requires regulation. 3 is just a solution applied after 1. I asked ""anon2696444391 to do it"" because antitrust regulation evolved in a state context. It is not clear if, say, a German court, could order Facebook (an American company) dismantled. It could, in theory, forbid it to operate on the German market, but that would require a Great Firewall of Germany or some non-existent technology. At the very least there would be some creative implementation to do, even if the political will could be found. [quote=""anon3197437925, post:2, topic:9797""] let’s get rid of advertising altogether, both online, in print, on TV and in public space, whether for products or political parties. [/quote] For this to be viable, we need a clearer idea of anon2696444391 it would work. History might hold some clues: prior to 1993 it was indeed illegal to use the Internet for commercial purposes, and it would be interesting to look at anon2696444391 things might have evolved from there. I would be eager to have this discussion on this platform, as a part of NGI Forward!" 4,52841,2019-04-25T17:06:48.157Z,9797,0,17,16,1,1,0,38.4,52834,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:3, topic:9797""]1 is regulation.[/quote] 1 is the _absence_ of regulation. Regulation is what made companies as big as Facebook possible in the first place, with stuff like companies as legal persons, publicly traded companies, the basic concept of transferable debt with govt enforcement and so on. I prefer they would not make any big business possible and develop standards for cooperation instead. The W3C is actually a good model." 5,52845,2019-04-25T19:17:58.084Z,9797,0,16,15,1,0,0,113.2,52812,anon1679055112,anon3379761435,"Well that can be applied to all media nowadays unfortunately (or 95%). Can we talk about free and fair elections when they spend hundreds of millions of dollars/euros to have someone elected or manufacture public opinion/consent for various horrible decisions being made in the name of the people? We also now know that silicon valley giants abuse of their position very much and in so many ways, from privacy issues over rigging the search results/filtering information we can see to silencing people by removing their ability to make money or to be heard via their platforms. As far as regulation is concerned, well I have very bad experience with regulation and standardization. Seems to be used mostly by big company, who actually finance our policy makers, to reinforce their position on the market or eliminate smaller players. Maybe a combination of banning advertisement & funding political campaigns could bring some improvements. In our democracy money wins..." 6,52847,2019-04-25T19:58:48.379Z,9797,0,16,15,1,1,0,23.2,52834,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:3, topic:9797""]It is not clear if, say, a German court, could order Facebook (an American company) dismantled. It could, in theory, forbid it to operate on the German market, but that would require a Great Firewall of Germany or some non-existent technology. At the very least there would be some creative implementation to do, even if the political will could be found.[/quote] And that is actually a really good question to discuss and solve around here: anon2696444391 to break up Facebook (or annihilate it altogether) when there is no global agreement about it. I don't have an idea right now, because for sure we don't want Great Firewalls or national ""splinternets"", which would surely be used by governments for all kinds of anti-democratic purposes once they would have them implemented …" 7,54078,2019-05-28T11:04:31.258Z,9797,1,15,14,1,0,0,58.0,52812,anon1032047132,anon3379761435,"One of my particular concerns is the use of AI algorithms to manipulate human feelings and decision making for commercial or political benefit. Ideally, there should be an outright ban of such algorithms. If that is not possible, there should oversight of such algorithms by a board of stakeholders and such a board should have mandatory powers to enforce changes to algorithms when they are deemed to be harmful or excessively manipulative." 8,54079,2019-05-28T11:06:23.910Z,9797,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,52812,anon1032047132,anon3379761435,Another idea: perhaps users should have to opt-in to be exposed to those algorithms. 9,54100,2019-05-28T18:01:42.420Z,9797,1,15,14,1,0,0,28.0,54078,anon3203746736,anon1032047132,What would be an example of an AI algorithm that manipulates in that way? 10,54173,2019-05-29T17:12:55.192Z,9797,2,13,12,1,0,0,62.6,54100,anon1032047132,anon3203746736,"Here's one example of anon2696444391 algorithms can be manipulative and unhelpful. ""YouTube algorithms have been criticized for drawing viewers into ever more extreme content, recommending a succession of videos that can quickly take them into dark corners of the internet."" https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/13/james-damore-google-memo-youtube-white-men-radicalization This is an eye-opening TED talk by a researcher on this topic: https://www.ted.com/talks/zeynep_tufekci_we_re_building_a_dystopia_just_to_make_people_click_on_ads" 11,54177,2019-05-29T18:09:33.204Z,9797,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,54173,anon3203746736,anon1032047132,Good references. Thanks. 12,54185,2019-05-29T21:02:03.100Z,9797,2,13,12,1,0,0,77.6,54173,anon3379761435,anon1032047132,"It goes back to the original sin: modeling human beings as desire machines, instead of thinking adults. The YouTube algo maximizes minutes of video watched, which in turn maximizes number of ads watched. Watching videos is the supreme good. If extreme controversy (and worse) get people to watch more videos, it is good. Because the viewer is *choosing* to watch those videos, right? He chooses to, because watching the videos makes him feel good. And why should people not want to feel good? What's wrong with that? Whereas, if you model a human being as a thinking adult, some of those videos are debasing, and watching them is definitely not good." 13,54188,2019-05-29T21:53:20.136Z,9797,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,54185,anon1032047132,anon3379761435,"Spot on, @anon3379761435!" 14,54233,2019-05-30T14:13:45.788Z,9797,1,13,12,1,0,0,27.6,54185,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,Yes “modeling human beings as desire machines” pretty well nails it. But then this has been the MO of TV ads for generations. 15,55430,2019-06-19T13:19:57.401Z,9797,2,10,9,1,0,0,17.0,54233,anon2489867874,anon3203746736,"Human beings ARE desire (or pleasure, take your pick) machines! So it's not a question of modeling or appealing to that. Need I mention porn? Free iPads? Obama lowering your interest rates? One has to accept the world as it is and was. Attacking any of these problems by trying to change ""the beast who is already formed"" seems fruitless. Now..there is not doubt that parenting and education along with society can crank out humans who suppress the beast. Such has been done for 100's of years (or longer), but a society modeled on money really has anon2488317424 reason to do so. Attention is Heroin. I have seen it first hand. In fact, I think it's more addicting than any drug I have seen....maybe Cocaine is close. People simply cannot help themselves. Many people have better angels. Some people don't. Even with increased awareness and education, you still have the sociopath problem....as well as others. I don't mean to say that it is hopeless...but I think it's hopeless. :slight_smile: We can work around the edges a anon2488317424 bit - in terms of data collection, possible breakup of large firms, etc. But will Facebook really change if it doesn't own instagram or WhatsApp? Not IMHO. Not to repeat myself, but Facebook didn't ""do"" anything much....they just created a terrible framework and then people did the rest...and it just got out of control. My thought is that it will, in a sense, self regulate because decent people will do less there (already happening in my view). Government has a place in the data collection part, tho. I do think that breakup of the core businesses is going too far....as stated, there is nothing to replace them and nature abhors a vacuum. What comes after FB would be more likely to be Putin controlled or the like." 16,55501,2019-06-20T15:14:33.113Z,9797,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,55430,anon3203746736,anon2489867874,"I think simply divesting WhatsApp or Instagram from FB, or Android from Google won't get to the heart of the problem if nothing is done about the way they gather and share user data. And even that won't deal with anon2696444391 FB and others like Google follow people as they go to other parts of the net and use that combined data to not just further target ads, but more insidiously to decide what and who one does and does not see. Furthermore, regulation has to make them choose if they are neutral platforms (which would force them to fundamentally change their business model) or publishers (in which case they would have to take more responsibility for what get said on their platforms). These are the core problems. Core to them because this is central to what drives their growth." 17,58205,2019-08-21T07:56:46.009Z,9797,1,8,7,1,0,0,26.6,52812,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"More evidence for recommendation algos distorting the public sphere. This time it is Neflix's, which has a large catalogue of nutty conspiracy theory-endorsing documentaries, and recommends them to people who have watched balanced, well made documentaries. https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2019/netflixs-algorithms-seem-to-be-a-new-entry-point-for-conspiracy-theories-be-aware/" 18,58214,2019-08-21T10:06:39.837Z,9797,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,58205,anon2945747231,anon3379761435,"The whole discussion that tech is just tools that people use, and that people are the bad inherently just turns out again, isn't true. It's the algorithms (accidentally?) feeding us franon2945747231 ideas making them part of the general narrative. This NYT thing on Brazil and YouTube perfectly exemplifies it: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/11/world/americas/youtube-brazil.html" 19,58218,2019-08-21T13:00:34.674Z,9797,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,58214,anon850704935,anon2945747231,"Well, video itself is full of bad ideas, but its people who click on this and consider it true. Same goes for the gun debate (in my opinion) in US. A gun on a table doesn't kill people, someone needs to pick it up and pull the trigger. I personally see here a huge and enormous potential for online education seminars on anon2696444391 to distinguish fake news from actual news." 20,58332,2019-08-25T00:16:48.577Z,9797,0,8,7,1,0,0,36.6,58218,anon2489867874,anon850704935,"The Dunning Kruger effect would seem to suggest that those online seminars would not be well intended. Simply speaking, people who don't know things don't know (or care) that they don't know them. They have zero interest in knowing them. One would have to read tends of thousands of pages of fairly dry history to even have a foundation to understand what might be real ""news"" or ""truth"" and what not be. Further, the Dunning Kruger effect says those who are more capable (maybe those making and giving the seminars) are LESS SURE than the ignorant about whether they are correct or not! It's a strange thing...but very real." 21,58409,2019-08-26T16:27:11.273Z,9797,1,9,8,1,1,0,41.8,55430,anon3379761435,anon2489867874,"[quote=""anon2489867874, post:15, topic:9797""] But will Facebook really change if it doesn’t own instagram or WhatsApp? [/quote] That's not what the AT&T breakup did. The breakup was vertical, not horizontal: it created seven companies that *were all competing for the exact same market with the same product*. If you had twenty competing social networks, they might still be evil, but they will, individually, be much less powerful than the original monopolist." 22,58411,2019-08-26T16:42:15.962Z,9797,1,9,8,1,0,0,26.8,58409,anon3203746736,anon3379761435," The broken up bell companies did not actually compete with each other they were just assigned a territory where they could operate. And that is still true. The trouble with all of that is that cellular phone service isn’t regulated by any of those rules which is why AT&T, which is really Southwestern Bell based in Texas which was then allowed to merge with Pacific Bell, and then bought AT&T (which by then had been reduced down to just a name with the right to make computers that didn’t Sell much and, most importantly, AT&T was the beginning of there wireless business). Because of wireless, and the overall reluctance to put any constraints on gigantic corporate businesses, I think the state of phone service in the US is not anon2373157426 monopolistic but getting closer. I guess this is a digression in a sense from the main topic. But I think my point is that breaking up the company did have some big effects but I don’t think that we the consumers made out all that well in the bargain considering we now pay on average something like five times as much for phone service as we used to." 23,58413,2019-08-26T16:47:06.555Z,9797,1,9,8,1,1,0,26.8,58411,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:22, topic:9797""] The broken up bell companies did not actually compete with each other they were just assigned a territory where they could operate. And that is still true. [/quote] Hmm. I recall that, at the time, the idea was that after a grace period the Baby Bells would be allowed to compete for each other's market. This would drive tariffs down. Competition on cellphone service in Europe worked very well to keep the prices low." 24,58419,2019-08-26T17:57:43.986Z,9797,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,58413,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"They all had a right to go after what they called long distance service. That was the competition. But again mobile phones obliterated all of that soon enough. Still without the break up of AT&T there would be no Internet as we know it today. (The big reason being before the breakup AT&T owned the lines and all the equipment. Part of the breakup was allowing other companies to make phones and modems that ran on the lines that had formerly been the exclusive and complete domain of AT&T.) And for that alone it was worth it. Even though we know anon2696444391 flawed the Internet is, but still…" 1,57715,2019-08-07T12:12:45.255Z,10502,0,13,12,9,0,0,107.6,57715,anon1333339178,anon1333339178,"## RESHAPING THE INTERNET THROUGH COLLECTIVE AND NETWORKED INTELLIGENCE **The [Next Generation Internet (NGI)](https://ngi.eu/) initiative aims to foster a vibrant open Human-centric Internet movement that links research, policy and society for the creation of a better Internet – an Internet that respects fundamental values of privacy, participation and diversity.** **The NGI Forum will take place in Helsinki on 25th September 2019.** Registration is free but seats are limited, register now www.ngiforum.eu It is the flagship annual event that gathers together prominent researchers, innovators and policy makers at work on several fronts to restructure the Internet to be fit for the future we want, while we continue using it to help run our societies and economies. This year it will take place on the 25 September in Helsinki (Finland) in co-location with the My Data 2019 Conference. The event will include a mix of policy and specialist talks, open discussions and interactive working groups. The emphasis is on stimulating discussion and the free exchange of ideas between policy makers, researchers, SMEs and Startups, industry players, and civil society. Some of the main topics covered at NGI Forum 2019 include: * Data governance and portability * Privacy and trust enhancing technologies * Discovery technologies and online identification * Collective intelligence – from citizens science to open innovation * Blockchain and distributed ledger technologies" 1,57475,2019-08-02T11:03:50.962Z,10460,0,14,13,3,0,0,77.8,57475,anon831914980,anon831914980,"Hi all, sharing my tweet about new available calls in NGI Community. Enjoy! https://twitter.com/DavidSeoaneVila/status/1157245100671537154?s=20" 2,58065,2019-08-16T15:36:13.630Z,10460,0,9,8,5,0,0,56.8,57475,anon1753543892,anon831914980,"Dear @anon831914980, great to have you here and thank you very much for posting this link to help the community! Is there anything the community could help you with your projects and interests at the moment? I would also like to invite you to join the discussion around the Edgeryders festival either in this tread: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon1577251828-festival-november-19-29-invitation-to-participate-in-co-designing-the-next-gen-internet-track-of-the-program/10450 or live during our community call on the 20th of August 18:00 Brussels time: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-call-20th-of-august-your-chance-to-shape-the-anon1577251828-ngi-festival/10549 (link to the zoom call directly: https://zoom.us/j/592769960) It would be great if you could help us to make some connections between the NGI open calls and events, workshops and discussions we could feature during the festival :)." 3,58368,2019-08-26T08:48:45.486Z,10460,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,57475,anon831914980,anon831914980,"Thanks @anon1753543892! Happy to join the discussion around The Edgeryders Festival Maybe you can spread it in NGI Community as well: https://spaces.fundingbox.com/c/ngi-next-generation-internet/collections/events/write" 1,58144,2019-08-19T19:08:28.813Z,10576,0,11,10,9,0,0,62.2,58144,anon850704935,anon850704935,"I'm a big Gary Vaynerchuck fan. In case if you don't know who he is, here's his website: https://www.garyvaynerchuk.com/ One of the things he said is what really resonates with me and I do believe it's correct: social media isn't changing us, it's sanon2696444391ing who we really are. His short opinion on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKG_T3VtbMw The main premise for this is that for example in the past, people kept things about themselves in the dark, for example, that the liked nationalistic parties. ..people usually confined in their closest circle which party they support, and now, they share their opinions about it online on their social channels. By that, they share what they already believed in and have been believing in probably before social media became a thing. The other issue is that this can be abused, as we've seen with the cambridge analytica scandals." 2,58153,2019-08-20T08:57:38.812Z,10576,0,9,8,4,0,0,51.8,58144,anon1608948641,anon850704935,"I mostly agree, but it doesn't explain everything. Taken by itself, this statement leads us to the conclusion that large portions of humanity are awful. And I do not believe that. While the internet does expose our less virtuous sides, it also helps to feed and grow them. That happens in several ways, for example: * algorithmic content feeds and the ""attention grabbing"" method of creating content reinforces the negative echo chamber * our habits and skills haven't adapted to the lack of recognizable separation of the different communication spheres. * we also haven't adapted to the fact that the internet keeps dredging up all our past sins and doesn't let go of them. That makes it a lot harder to reinvent oneself, or change ones stance over time. * large numbers have completely separated the ""this is where I do my political discussions"" circle from the ""these are my friends"" ones. These circles only merge again once the political opinion has settled in such a way that communicating with friends who have a different opinion isn't possible at all anymore." 3,58286,2019-08-22T17:44:00.477Z,10576,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,58144,anon3203746736,anon850704935,Who we really are: easily manipulated 1,58244,2019-08-22T00:59:11.671Z,10588,0,14,13,29,0,0,192.8,58244,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Follow this link to listen to the fascinating 90 minute live conversation with guest Christian Buggedei, AKA @anon1608948641, discussing the challenges and opportunities of designing a more human-centered social media platform. https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/a/aff52050fead654b579d9f209612daf477af3c8c.mp3" 2,58249,2019-08-22T08:23:45.038Z,10588,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,58244,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"One for @anon3591841007. Fredric, you were telling me you were prepared a careful response to @anon1608948641, following that conversation, right?" 3,58285,2019-08-22T17:41:47.246Z,10588,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,58244,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"We talk about interface and usability design, user tools and controls, when humans need to intervene instead of machines handling issues between people, problems with scaling and much more. Christian and his group are deigning an alternate social media platform called Darcy. They are in the early spec stage and getting clear on the principles that guide the creation of their product. There is much in here of interest.." 1,57980,2019-08-15T07:07:47.681Z,10549,0,25,24,22,0,0,160.0,57980,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"Join our community call on August 20, 6PM Brussels time to find out anon2696444391 you can get your ticket for the Edgeryders Festival. Join the call with this link: https://zoom.us/j/592769960 The Edgeryders Festival is a program of activities that take place in multiple cities in Europe. Tickets are not free of charge, but they cannot be bought for money. You can only get a ticket by working with the other participants to make it a great experience for everyone involved. Join this call if you'd like to be part of it. About the festival: The Edgeryders festival is a co-created event, build by participants who work together in different crews. ## At the Edgeryders festival you get to see what is happening, and anon2696444391 your own story is part of it. You will meet people from all over Europe to share our experiences from trying to build good lives for ourselves and people we love. Everyone comes together to exchange experiences, and use the learnings to help us make better decisions. In our professional and personal lives. Join this call to help shape the festival in a direction that interests you most. ([You can download last year's festival report here ](https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/7/76956ade79e5a56c0668c54326f556761cbd7177.pdf)) : " 2,57982,2019-08-15T07:30:55.030Z,10549,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,57980,anon1753543892,anon2945747231,"@anon2945747231, Looks good. I will add the date, time and zoomlink and we can @anon" 3,57985,2019-08-15T07:38:24.038Z,10549,0,5,4,0,0,0,1.0,57982,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,@anon2945747231 added the link and changed the title a bit. Are you fine with it? 4,58044,2019-08-16T09:56:06.130Z,10549,1,22,21,2,0,0,34.4,57980,anon2794261635,anon2945747231,Pinging here our NGI consortium partners who might want to join as well: @anon 5,58046,2019-08-16T10:08:30.000Z,10549,1,23,22,1,0,0,59.6,58044,anon3554654177,anon2794261635,"Hi Marina, I can not join that call. For the Festival I can take the Reading Club to Brussels: [https://www.meetup.com/Internet-of-Things-Ghent/events/263417465/](https://www.meetup.com/Internet-of-Things-Ghent/events/263417465/) Greetings, Rob" 6,58097,2019-08-19T09:12:44.670Z,10549,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,58046,anon2794261635,anon3554654177,Note to @anon659222949 7,58108,2019-08-19T11:23:08.543Z,10549,0,18,17,1,0,0,23.6,57980,anon294806887,anon2945747231,"Thanks for organising, I'll be there!" 8,58111,2019-08-19T11:33:04.098Z,10549,2,18,17,1,0,0,63.6,57980,anon1753543892,anon2945747231,"@anon2682865457, @anon3554387720, @anon3747875924, @anon3086952555, @anon1608948641 we would love to see you there :)" 9,58119,2019-08-19T12:08:34.743Z,10549,1,18,17,1,0,0,28.6,58111,anon2794261635,anon1753543892,also @anon1333339178 :) 10,58120,2019-08-19T12:09:44.427Z,10549,0,17,16,1,0,0,38.4,58119,anon1753543892,anon2794261635,and @anon831914980 :) 11,58127,2019-08-19T14:20:34.449Z,10549,1,16,15,1,0,0,73.2,58111,anon3747875924,anon1753543892,"thx much for the reminder, will be there, and yes we would like to do sth here in Saarbruecken, probably around our involvement in ai ethics / collective intelligence design" 12,58139,2019-08-19T17:10:46.364Z,10549,0,16,15,4,0,0,68.2,57980,anon2682865457,anon2945747231,@anon1753543892 I'll be there! :sparkles: 13,58183,2019-08-20T14:32:33.878Z,10549,0,14,13,4,0,0,37.8,58127,anon3747875924,anon3747875924,"In another mtg at 1800, will join after that or catch up tom..." 14,58187,2019-08-20T16:58:55.824Z,10549,1,13,12,2,0,0,32.6,57980,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,"notes from zoom chat: From Maria@anon it would be great if you guys could quickly share your topic of interest, what you would be interested in/what you might want to contribute and where you are based here in the chat for each other for orientation :) From Inge to Everyone: (08:10 PM) i’m especially interested in topics related to tech&humans - focussed on disinfo, authoritarianism (abuse of tech), and ethics From Zenna Fiscanon4205961763 to Everyone: (08:10 PM) ++ From Inge to Everyone: (08:10 PM) What i can do: help communicate the messages From Oliver Sauter to Everyone: (08:12 PM) We at WorldBrain could organise a hackathon in Berlin for conscious tech. From Me to Everyone: (08:12 PM) awesome, oliver From Maria@anon I want to help you guys to coordinate to get together to realise events around the NGI topics and directly organise and help set up the event in Stockholm (great space) :) From Alberto to Everyone: (08:13 PM) I am especially interested in the economic aspects of Internet infrastructure. Specifically, I care about anon2696444391 best make use of the property of information to be non-rivalrous: using it does not prevent others also using it. From Oliver Sauter to Everyone: (08:14 PM) > I am especially interested in the economic aspects of Internet infrastructure. Specifically, I care about anon2696444391 best make use of the property of information to be non-rivalrous: using it does not prevent others also using it. ❤️ From Alberto to Everyone: (08:14 PM) I would like to explore anon2696444391 a new wave of Internet infrastructure can enable a commons-based economy, which is just way more efficient than the present IPR-based model. From Oliver Sauter to Everyone: (08:14 PM) Looking forward to talk in Helsinki :) From John Coate to Everyone: (08:14 PM) I am interested in moving tech back to greater user control. From Alberto to Everyone: (08:14 PM) @anon From Zenna Fiscanon4205961763 to Everyone: (08:14 PM) I’m interested in decentralisation, in all forms but my focus is on internet atm From John Coate to Everyone: (08:16 PM) It should be noted that Nadia is the chief organizer for the festival and she is out until later this week From Noemi to Everyone: (08:17 PM) Also: what is your experience with events so far? From John Coate to Everyone: (08:18 PM) also Zoom defaults to you being mute..so unmute before you speak. From Noemi to Everyone: (08:22 PM) Are there formats you have seen elsewhere which you liked? From Chris Adams to Everyone: (08:22 PM) Hi Folks. My current interest is in understanding the policy levers available to help decouple the use of internet tech and digital in general, from the environmental impact we associate with it, and also to see anon2696444391 to have. More diverse From Alberto to Everyone: (08:23 PM) @anon From Chris Adams to Everyone: (08:23 PM) Damnit! Not finished. I’m looking for ways to promote a more diverse ecosystem that we work without such concentration of power and influence in a tiny number of actors" 15,58193,2019-08-20T17:35:35.958Z,10549,1,13,12,1,0,0,42.6,58187,anon1753543892,anon2945747231,"Thank you for everyone for being there and to @anon2945747231 for keeping track of this. @anon2616197748 started a document for notes if I understand correctly, could you share the link here?" 16,58194,2019-08-20T18:19:03.746Z,10549,2,13,12,1,0,0,62.6,58193,anon2616197748,anon1753543892,"here you are :slight_smile: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PqF6rNtXTY9hoeKARXvV0lQhzF1RXweIKaYCkQAYYaw/edit?usp=drive_web&ouid=116798189445354874572" 17,58195,2019-08-20T18:22:50.282Z,10549,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,58194,anon2945747231,anon2616197748,Woah @anon2616197748 this is so super useful! Thanks so much! 18,58196,2019-08-20T19:09:27.421Z,10549,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,58194,anon1753543892,anon2616197748,@anon2616197748 Thank you! Amazing :) 1,58049,2019-08-16T12:04:36.321Z,10557,0,13,12,2,0,0,72.6,58049,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"I induced a new social network from NGI today. I excluded both the public and the non-public workspaces from it. The results are nevertheless encouraging: * 106 unique contributors * 102 threads * 1,073 posts * 143K words * 308 unique relationships induced It looks like this: ![image|690x427](upload://qwEPd8XdhY7HrUCwDI0r3R26tEL.png) However, I could not help noticing that two users are not interacting with anyone. Could @anon3203746736 and @anon1753543892 go say hi? They are colleagues, even, anon831914980 and anon1333339178. Thanks!" 2,58066,2019-08-16T15:42:10.684Z,10557,0,4,3,0,1,0,0.8,58049,anon1753543892,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:10557""] anon1333339178 [/quote] @anon3379761435, I went and started talking to anon831914980, but before I write a direct message to the anon1333339178 did I want to ask if there is anything I have to to know about the anon1333339178? @anon2794261635, are they those who are particular about the wording regarding community and such? Can/Should I reach out them asking to get involved with the Festival or rather not? Should I better literally just say ""hello""? Who is behind that?" 3,58095,2019-08-19T08:50:10.504Z,10557,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,58066,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,"Just introduce yourself, sanon2696444391ing that you are aware of who they are. ""You are probably here for work reasons, like I am, but you are still welcome. If you, like myself, are also interested in debating the NGI, your contributions will be most welcome, and I will do my best to connect you with interesting people to debate with, and have a good experience.""" 1,57822,2019-08-10T18:59:08.252Z,10526,0,14,13,9,0,0,47.8,57822,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"According to this essay, it does. https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/was-e-mail-a-mistake?utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_081019&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd672a73f92a41245dd7c89&cndid=26629987&esrc=&utm_term=TNY_Daily" 2,57933,2019-08-13T14:44:52.215Z,10526,2,9,8,1,0,0,31.8,57822,anon1608948641,anon3203746736,"nah. _Used correctly_, asynchronous messaging is a blessing. It means that I can write and send off either an instruction, a question or a handover and then _can forget about it_. It won't eat up any brain cycles until the answer comes back. And I don't even have to deal with said answer, until I am ready to do so. So, switch off all alerts for email and instead set a reminder every 60 minutes or so to check your emails manually. Permanent context switching is the bane of mental productivity, and asynchronous communication allows us to minimize this. The caveat though: This needs to be done right. Set time boxes for when to check your emails, sort them into ""deal with ASAP"" and ""deal with at next timeslot"". Also: Let your recipients know, when you expect an answer, and set realistic timeframes (maybe even add an explanation, why something is urgent). If you need the answer right now or within 15 minutes, call or go in person. If you need in it 15 days, you better put it into an email! Write your emails clearly - provide context where needed, keep it short enough that the gist and answer-timeframe is easily understandable. _Write sentences that make sense_. If everyone would do this, emails are the best!" 3,57936,2019-08-13T16:39:42.930Z,10526,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,57933,anon2373157426,anon1608948641,"I have really felt organisations that struggle with, like, meta-conversational overhead due to the nature of async conversation -- combined with anon2696444391 people in general tend to use it. I have also experience from other groups of e-mail users, where the advantages that you mention are really great! But I find that use anon2373157426 particular, and again not many people practice it. It's hard and takes discipline, as you say." 4,57937,2019-08-13T17:27:37.788Z,10526,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,57933,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,"Email is the number one way I communicate with people outside of meeting in person. This has been true now for more than 30 years. I greatly prefer it over phone calls. But then, I am not in an organization or company that requires I answer more than a hundred of them a day. I would go nuts with something like that. I get what the author is saying about meetings and there is an irony to turning something asynchrounous into something resembling real time. Once I worked for a nonprofit that had what I regarded as an absurd amount of in-person office meetings. They would have been much better served by using email better. But that was a culture I could not influence." 5,57958,2019-08-14T14:15:15.182Z,10526,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,57822,anon2573410237,anon3203746736,"A side aspect, but the article's author seems to be completely oblivious to the blessings, historical significance and spread of the [_Rohrpost_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_tube) (pneumatic tube networks), describing the CIA's system, as if it were special or unique. I felt really frustrated with that. The history of office communications is much more complex than the picture that is painted there." 6,57961,2019-08-14T15:37:08.926Z,10526,0,5,4,1,0,0,21.0,57958,anon3203746736,anon2573410237,I remember as a kid in 1950s New York going to my father's office at Merrill Lynch and seeing a huge pneumatic tube system going all over the place. 1,57757,2019-08-08T11:04:24.069Z,10512,0,14,13,18,0,0,122.8,57757,anon831914980,anon831914980,"OPEN CALLS from H2020 in The Next Generation Internet community available!: Next Generation Media; Blockchain for the NGI; InteractiveTechnologies; Next Generation IoT; An empowering, inclusive NGI. Check them here! https://bit.ly/31oGwZZ " 1,57225,2019-07-29T01:28:29.656Z,10423,0,21,20,54,0,0,319.2,57225,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Peter Bihr is an expert on Internet of Things, especially in matters of policy. He is a co-founder of the ThingsCon annual conference, he has a consulting firm, The Waving Cat, he is a former Mozilla Fellow, and he co-founded a company that makes durable and stylish pants for travelers. As part of his Fellowship here, we interviewed him and he in turn interview some of his colleagues." 2,57226,2019-07-29T01:43:08.997Z,10423,1,21,20,67,0,0,374.2,57225,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"In this mp3 podcast, Peter discusses Internet values with Michelle Thorne from the Mozilla Foundation. Michelle talks about her ten years at the Mozilla Foundation, the state of internet participation, making the Internet-of-things open and responsible, the meaning of ""open"" in this context, The Open IoT Studio, and a new PhD program looking at responisble IoT, all with a focus on professionals and practitioners. 34 minutes, recorded July 2019. https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/e/e182e332deb203bccd3f1680ff815115802f0c53.mp3" 3,57227,2019-07-29T02:04:54.284Z,10423,0,20,19,20,0,0,119.0,57225,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Peter Bihr interviews Professor Jon Rogers from the University of Dundee (and also a Mozilla Fellow) in this mp3 podcast. Professor Rogers discusses origins of maker culture, the blurry line between consuming and producing, a recent design conference/retreat that led to using AI and film to sanon2696444391 potential future scenarios through storytelling, the nature of surveillance today, and a deep look into what values and ethics must be built into networked technologies in public (and private) spaces. 42.4 minutes, recorded July 2019. https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/0/04eb415d13b1766bc34deace21b96040762c7456.mp3" 4,57228,2019-07-29T02:14:57.533Z,10423,0,19,18,1,0,0,23.8,57225,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Peter Bihr in conversation with John Coate, Inge Snip and Christian Buggedei n this mp3 podcast, which runs an hour and thirteen minutes. We discuss a wide range of topics from smart cities to internet of things, trust marks and certifications to anon2696444391 China is the center of hardware creation. recorded July 2019. https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/c/cc97e2a07234e0776f89adf91230204c58ceb17d.mp3" 5,57230,2019-07-29T06:47:15.123Z,10423,1,19,18,1,0,0,13.8,57225,anon3554654177,anon3203746736,"Are there some written highlights or key messages, or should I listen to the full interviews? I doc not need a full transcript that is excessive but some points for discussion would be good to have." 6,57231,2019-07-29T07:11:14.135Z,10423,0,19,18,4,0,0,23.8,57226,anon3554654177,anon3203746736,Peter talks about the Edgeryders Internet of Humans project? I take it that is referring to the work of Edgeryders in NGI CSA FORWARD? I think it is best to mention NGI.eu and the CSA. 7,57233,2019-07-29T07:37:03.284Z,10423,0,19,18,10,0,0,68.8,57225,anon3554654177,anon3203746736," Lots of good pointers for discussion. Which stakeholders are you going to get involved? What are the next steps of building this into a larger public debate. How is things con engaging its community for this? I will send my notes to the council list and ask colleagues to get involved. Participation is more complicated. Lack of governance from human side. IoT projects that are open in designs, code, explanation of business model and anon2696444391 did it come to be, transparency builds trust Part of that is disclosing what happens to the data Roles of individuals and collective Individuals can they protect themselves? We see beginnings of collective bargaining, pools of users. See also datatrust (Delacroix), digital cooperatives. Bringing the full story of connected projects :sanon2696444391ing the ‘hidden’ infrastructures Anatomy of AI as a reference project sanon2696444391ing the network of stuff around a single device, Alexa. https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/9/17832124/ai-artificial-intelligence-supply-chain-anatomy-of-ai-kate-crawford-interview Tools IoT Trustmark https://thingscon.org/report-a-trustmark-for-iot/ A Trustmark for the Internet of Things (IoT): The Trustable Technology Mark empowers consumers to make informed decisions & enables companies to prove their connected devices are trustworthy Phd program Amazingness of EU to foster training networks is unique in the world. The Eu itself is the most interesting and forward looking public good project. Three year Phd program in Dundee: research through design, coding, legal, philosophical practices to advance a 'healthier' IoT Greener web Internet contributes as much to CO2 as airline industry, 2%. We have to rethink the physicality of internet. What would a carbon neutral internet look like? What will be a focus: Reforming our economic models On that note https://neweconomics.org/search/publications" 8,57274,2019-07-29T13:34:57.929Z,10423,1,14,13,1,0,0,42.8,57230,anon3203746736,anon3554654177,"Rob, I am also having these interviews transcribed. But I wanted to make them available in audio form first. So, coming soon.." 9,57275,2019-07-29T13:46:22.000Z,10423,0,15,14,1,0,0,38.0,57274,anon3554654177,anon3203746736,"Looking forward! I will then respond to the other interviews as well, Rob" 10,57303,2019-07-30T03:38:21.609Z,10423,1,13,12,1,0,0,57.6,57225,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Here is a transcript of the group call with Peter, Inge, Christian and myself. Edited for readability. IoH Peter Bihr Interview edited TEXT 7-23-19.pdf (148.8 KB)" 11,57653,2019-08-06T14:44:03.476Z,10423,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,57303,anon3086952555,anon3203746736,"Thanks so much, John!" 1,57168,2019-07-26T04:20:40.929Z,10414,0,19,18,296,0,0,1498.8,57168,anon1753543892,anon1753543892," ![site-logo|177x60](upload://wRCTuMtmBBVSKrFheMiNvFs4bDq.png) ![communitycalls%20logo%206th%20of%20august|690x488](upload://aLy80WYxK8du5XXxfLqsgHDvsnc.png) ## Join us this time on August the 6th 6 PM Brussel time for a community call with amazing edgeryder community member and founder of [Darcy](https://darcy.is/) @anon1608948641 (Christian Buggedei) This time we will dive into the topic on anon2696444391 to talk and moderate online including difficult topics such as censorship or anon2863106368e policing. ## “*Moderation & Mediation versus Censorship & Tone Policing - keeping people safe from ALL kinds*”. @anon1608948641 created a glossary we to get a taste and a start into the discussion that could be used as a jump-off point: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/managing-communications-an-attempted-glossary/10391 This topic is very relevant to us here at Edgeryders, many of our members as well as anyone working within the context of building a healthy Next Generation Internet. We are looking forward to hearing your perspectives and ideas and discuss what is and could be possible or need to be taken in consideration. Let's communicate well! [FOLLOW THIS LINK](https://zoom.us/j/351670844) to Join the Zoom Meeting
" 2,57177,2019-07-26T08:03:04.925Z,10414,1,15,14,2,0,0,18.0,57168,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,"""Tone policing"" :rofl:" 3,57186,2019-07-26T11:05:44.855Z,10414,1,14,13,2,0,0,17.8,57177,anon1608948641,anon3379761435,"@anon3379761435: It might sound funny, but there's nothing funny about it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing to get a quick intro." 4,57197,2019-07-26T17:07:14.189Z,10414,1,13,12,2,0,0,32.6,57186,anon3379761435,anon1608948641,"I did not mean to be dismissive! *But* I am not a native speaker of English, and through my ears, it sounds excessive force-ey. I cannot help picturing big guys with truncheons snarling ""don't use that anon2863106368e with me!""." 5,57212,2019-07-27T08:53:11.787Z,10414,0,14,13,5,0,0,57.8,57197,anon1608948641,anon3379761435,"And that is exactly part of the problem: Who sets the standard for ""this is allowed"", anon2696444391 do we ensure that miscommunications or different cultural backgrounds, different framings, and so on don't harm anyone. Also: Are victims of systemic oppression _(yes, this is an overly formal phrasing, but please bear with me)_ really expected to walk on eggshells around everyone on the off chance that the one who is using language their oppressors use is actually not one of them - most internet forums don't really come with a background check included? _(I'm not a native english speaker myself, and hoo boy make I odd gaffes at times. Also, racism in Germany has slightly different markers and power dynamics than for example in the US. And a lot of the dynamics there don't really make sense to me at first glance.)_ I'm not saying that we should all self-police our speech all the time, and I don't think that Edgeryders particularly needs extensive policies, this is a fine and polite community, but if one is in charge of keeping a large-scale platform safe for everyone, these are things one should keep in mind." 6,57577,2019-08-05T13:09:28.538Z,10414,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,57168,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,"When the mass shootings in the US happened this weekend, my thought immediately: 8chan. And I think the platform will be an interesting case-study for our call. This piece on NYT nails it in my opinion: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/04/technology/8chan-shooting-manifesto.html?searchResultPosition=1" 7,57600,2019-08-05T18:43:33.199Z,10414,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,57168,anon3203746736,anon1753543892," I will be hosting this conversation and I very much look forward to it. We’re going to be talking about moderation, community standards and what that even means in a global setting, hate speech, when “anon2863106368e policing” veers into censorship, the influence of the ad based business model, and anon2696444391 much control a user or individual can and should have over their own online environment. Along with whatever else comes up in the conversation of course. See you there!." 8,57646,2019-08-06T13:29:01.585Z,10414,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,57168,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,"I was def planning to attend this, but I am not feeling well and I'll have to miss it. Very sad about it @anon1608948641! But looking forward to listening to it later...." 1,56895,2019-07-19T10:23:22.980Z,10384,1,23,22,22,0,0,119.6,56895,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"We advise that team members are visible in ""who is behind this"" description on the NGI exchange site. If you wish to be included, feel free to add your _**1-paragraph bio**_ in a comment below. # Alberto Cottica @anon3379761435 **Co-Founder and Research Director** , **Edgeryders** Data/Network scientist and economist. Passionate about participatory processes and anon2696444391 they harness collective intelligence. Following a ""long hunch"" about the mathematical signatures of human dynamics since 2009. Former low-grade rockstar. Runner. # Filip Simonovski @anon850704935 **Social Media Manager**, **Edgeryders** Filip is not your average marketing geek. Just like the other “not-your-average” geeks at Edgeryders. Although excelling in web-development, web project management, digital strategy creation, community management, digital analytics & content creation, Filip loves driving change with the work he does most. Having worked with larger corporations, hard-hitting NGOs, and small business owners, he knows what works best for who. At Edgeryders, he’s passionately growing the community and the visibility of the people and conversations in it. # Hugi Ásgeirsson @anon659222949 **Co-Director and Outreach Events Manager**, **Edgeryders** Positioned between technology and participatory culture and politics, Hugi is interested in anon2696444391 people can collaborate better together today and in the future, online and offline. He currently works from Stockholm, where he co-founded the participatory culture center and social enterprise Blanon2066456771de. As a co-director of Edgeryders, he runs the development lab Participio developing software for participatory culture and is involved in a number of projects exploring anon2696444391 technology can enable participation, social cohesion and resilience. Hugi has a background in informatics and analytics and has a degree from KTH Royal Institute of Technology where he studied biotechnology engineering. # Inge Snip @anon2945747231 **Content Curator** , **Edgeryders** Multimedia journalist and communications expert Inge believes that telling stories that inspire change are the only stories worth telling. She has worked with a variety of organizations - including Forbes, National Geographic and UNICEF - producing and curating both video and written content to tell extraordinary stories, build communities and engage large audiences. At Edgeryders, Inge has previously helped build and manage communities of innovative activists in Georgia for the Futurespotters and Futuremakers projects. She currently splits her time between producing and managing content at the award-winning journalism initiative Coda Story and curating and editing content at Edgeryders. # John Coate @anon3203746736 **Co-Director and Community Manager** , **Edgeryders** John was employee number two at The WELL, where he was instrumental in creating the online community that Wired Magazine called the “world’s most influential”. There he was the first to work as what is now known as an “online community manager” and he wrote the first treatise on building online community. He co-founded the first major news website, [sfgate.com](http://sfgate.com), which today has more than thirty million monthly visitors and more than 340K Twitter followers. He was the online manager of a teen social network and game site that had thousands of members. He managed a regional media organisation that combined terrestrial radio and the internet in innovative ways. Through it all the core of his community knowledge comes from direct personal experience living and working with others who are consciously building lasting relationships as the building blocks of community. # Maria Euler @anon1753543892 **Community Manager**, **Edgeryders** Interdisciplinary artist and design researcher as well as a community manager for edgeryder with a background in physics, fine art and a Master in Information Experience Design from the Royal Collge of Art. She searches for points of connection and entry, between disciplines, complex scientific concepts, discussion, emotional and tangible experiences and people. She worked with the Helen Hamlyn Centre for Inclusive Design and the Financial Education startup Gimi as a researcher and UX Designer. She also was part of multiple successful art-science collaborations as for example with the Bristol Laboratory for Quantum Computing and exhibited interactive installations at venues and festivals across Europe such as Sonar+D, I-Gem and VrSci. Her goal is to enable different approaches and connections to increase the diversity and creativity of the discourse on art, science and technology. # Marina Batinic @anon2794261635 **Project Manager** , **Edgeryders** Marina is a project manager, specialised in cultural education, art, creativity and cultural heritage. Trained in knowledge management (European Commission, DG DEVCO), experienced in European project management (project coordinator at the Historical Research Center on Mediterranean Societies, University of Perpignan) and international cooperation (Ecole de Chaillot, Cité de l’architecture et du patrimoine, Paris). Co-founder of the Culture Hub Croatia which aims to strengthen the local cultural and creative sector and foster cross-sectorial innovation. # Matthias Ansorg @anon3197437925 **Co-founder and CTO**, **Edgeryders** Matthias is a computer scientist and technology generalist with a long experience in open source software and hardware development. A social innovator and digital entrepreneur who has studied alternative value measurement and non-monetary economic exchange mechanisms extensively for his award-winning commons funding platform PayCoupons (former Makerfox). Solid expertise in software development, integration and maintenance; has built the [anon1577251828.eu](http://anon1577251828.eu) online platform. # Nadia E.N.@anon3828707713 **Co-Founder and Outreach director**, **Edgeryders** Engineer and designer born in Sweden to African parents, raised in Europe and Asia. A bridge person between activist networks of marginalised groups, artists, civil society, entrepreneurs, media and government. Nadia’s role in Edgeryders to serve our global community of brilliant misfits via the not-for-profit company that builds and managers the infrastructure sustaining it. In practice this translates into laying out the vision, building strategic partnerships, driving flagship projects and managing crews on different projects. Named Minister of Labour in a “dream government of New Thinkers” imagined for Sweden by the leading financial newspaper in Scandinavia. # Rob Van Kranenburg @anon3554654177 **Director**, **Resonance Design** Rob van Kranenburg, @anon He has authored The Internet of Things: A Critique of ambient technology and the all-seeing network of RFID (2007); co-author of Situated Technologies Pamphlets 8. He is Director of Resonance Design BV, partnering in the NGI CSA Strategy NGI Forward. # Katja Bego @anon1965424313 **Principal researcher and data scientist, Nesta** Her work focuses on studying the impact of emerging technologies such as AI on our societies, and anon2696444391 these new innovations can be harnessed for social good and for the benefit of everyone. Katja is the coordinator of the European Commission-funded NGI Forward project, tasked with helping shape the strategy and policy agenda of the Next Generation Internet initiative, the EU’s ambitious new flagship programme which seeks to build a more democratic, inclusive and resilient future internet by 2025, and previously also led the EU Engineroom project, also under the NGI umbranon4205961763. She regularly comments on topics relating to the future internet in outlets such as Wired, the BBC, Financial Times and The Guardian. Before joining Nesta, Katja worked as a data scientist in the private sector and as a researcher at the MIT Media Lab. She has a degree in economics and political science from Wellesley College in the US. # Heshani Jayaratne @anon **Project Manager for NGI Forward, Nesta** Heshani oversees partner management, compliance and project delivery. Prior to joining Nesta, Heshani worked as a project manager running European Commission- funded projects on a variety of different topics spanning from education and intercultural competences, to immigration and anti-discrimination. Apart from her background in project management, she also has experience as a trainer and event organiser. Heshani holds an MA in Conflict, Security and Development from King’s College London and an MA from the University of Trento in Italy. She is also an alumnus of the University of Malmö. It was during her time at the War Studies Department at King’s that she first became interested in the interaction between technology and conflict, and the ethical questions behind this link. # Harry Armstrong **Head of Technology Futures, Nesta** He leads Nesta’s futures work, exploring the potential impacts of emerging technology and innovations, like Artificial Intelligence, on industry, society and the economy with a goal to supporting responsible innovation in a wide range of sectors. His research has covered everything from machine learning, cybersecurity and the internet of things to nanosanon1537101702tes and the emergence of local energy systems. He also is in charge of Nesta’s thinking on the ethical and responsible development of AI and machine learning tools, participatory futures methods and ‘Anticipatory Regulation’. Before joining Nesta, Harry completed a PhD in Molecular Biology at Cambridge University, focusing on epigenetic gene regulation. At Cambridge, he was also one of the founding members of Cambridge University Science and Policy Exchange (CUSPE) which helped connect and bridge the gap between early career researchers and early career policy makers from the civil service. # Anja Bechmann **Professor, Aarhus University and Research Director of Datalab** Anja Bechmann’s research examines social media communication and collective behavior using large-scale data collection and applied machine learning. Her field of research are digital sociology, privacy, critical algorithmic and AI studies and digital news studies. She is board member of the anon2071999133ish Council for IT Security and ATV’s Digital Sages and appointed member of the Academy of Technical Sciences. She acts as a supervisor for MA and PhD theses within the area of digital social research. She is member of several editorial boards, reviewer for international high-ranked journals within her field and has acted as assessment committee member for grant applications, professorships and PhD defenses. Her research has been funded by national and international research councils such as the anon2071999133ish Council for Independent Research, Swedish Research Council, anon2071999133ish Agency for Science and Innovation, Horizon 2020 and Aarhus University Research Foundation. # Lynge Asbjørn Møller @anon4051891560 **Research Assistant, Aarhus University and Project Coordinator at Datalab** Lynge Asbjørn Møller holds a MA in Media Science from Aarhus University and is a member of AOiR (Association of Internet Researchers). He is a researcher and the center coordinator at the research center Datalab directed by Anja Bechmann, where he manages all research project at the center and engages himself in research in social media and digital information disorder. # Kristoffer Laigaard Nielbo **Associate Professor, Aarhus University and Co-Director of Datalab** As a humanities researcher, Kristoffer Nielbo has specialized in applications of quantitative methods and computational tools in analysis, interpretation and storage of cultural data. He has participated in a range of collaborative and interdisciplinary research projects involving researchers from the humanities, social, health, and natural sciences. His research covers two areas of interest of which one is more recent (automated text analysis) and the other (modeling of cultural behavior) has followed me during his entire academic career. Both interests explore the cultural information space in new and innovative ways by combining cultural data and humanities theories with statistics, computer algorithms, and visualization. # Peter Vahlstrup **Associate Professor, Aarhus University and Lead Programmer at Datalab** Peter Vahlstrup is teaching associate professor in JAVA and high-level programming and is the lead-programmer in the research center Datalab directed by Anja Bechmann. He is an expert in API-based data collection and has been lead-developer of the Digital Footprints software used for extracting social media data. Peter is daily manager of the Digital Footprints software package and administrate access, database storage and management of 465 researchers in 13 countries. # Tamas Erkelens **Program Manager of Public Tech, Municipality of Amsterdam** He aims to enhance public control over technology in the city, by creating open tech solutions and policy innovations. An example: Open source machine learning to automatically distribute 250.000 issues reported by residents annually, and auditing the algorithm making sure it does not discriminate. Amsterdam was awarded as European Capital of Innovation 2016-2017 for its digital social innovation approach. Previously, Tamas – graduated with honours as Research Master of Quantitative Social Sciences – has worked for ING as a Product Owner. In his spare time Tamas is co-founder of Data Mission, a foundation connecting big data analysts to mission driven organizations. # Dr Katarzyna Śledziewska **Executive Director, DELab, University of Warsaw** Katarzyna has been working with the University of Warsaw since 2000 and since 2014 is also the Executive Director at DELab. She coordinates the Digital Market research program. Katarzyna is Professor at the Faculty of Economic Sciences at the University of Warsaw, where she is giving lectures on the theory of economic integration and regional economic cooperation, and teaches empirical methods for macroeconomic analysis. In the past, she worked as an expert at the Ministry of Economy, National Council of Entrepreneurship and the Committee for Strategic Economic Policy. She also cooperated with the School of Economics at University of Nottingham and Economic Education Foundation. Katarzyna has a wide array of research interests, with main focus on the role of digital technologies in new economic models, the international aspects of digitalisation, the Digital Single Market strategy, and other aspects of economic integration. She is member of Readie-Europe’s Research Alliance for a Digital Economy. She has taken part in multiple national and EU-wide projects both as a key expert and as a coordinator. # Dr Maciej Wilamowski **Programme Coordinator, DELab, University of Warsaw** At DELab, Maciej coordinates research in the area of Data Science. In particular, he is responsible for analytical problem solving,forming analytical DELab team and enhancing corresponding skills of the team. Maciej monitors current and emerging Data Science trends as well as keeps track of the new Machine Learning solutions. In his spare time, Maciej enjoys developing his skills develops as a “kaggler”. His research interests lie primarily in the area of behavioral economics. Maciej works in DELab since January 2017. He works at the Faculty of Economic Sciences, where he is giving lectures on Data Science, Python and SQL, as well as Machine Learning. # Kristóf Gyódi @anon2705300038 **Analyst, DELab, University of Warsaw** Kristóf is an analyst at DELab UW, research employee and a PhD candidate at the Faculty of Economic Sciences at the University of Warsaw. He is member of the Smart Economy and Digital Market research teams. In his research he focuses on the potential of digital economy and new business models in Central Europe. He is co-author of numerous DELab UW reports on e-commerce and digitalization of SMEs, currently he is engaged in research on sharing economy. He is member of the Readie Network (Europe's Research Alliance for a Digital Economy) and the Digital Transformation Working Group at the Polish Ministry of Economic Development. # Michał Paliński @anon **Analyst, DELab, University of Warsaw** Michał is a researcher at DELab UW, research employee and a PhD student at the Faculty of Economic Sciences at the University of Warsaw and a proposed research assistant for this project. At DELab UW, he is a member of the EU Digital Single Market (DSM) research team aiming at determining the changes in market opportunities and challenges that entrepreneurs face due to the implementation of DSM. Michał’s research interests focus on the digital economy, especially on the role online platforms are playing in solving market failures. In addition to his academic work, Michał is a member of the Digital Transformation Working Group at Polish Ministry of Economic Development. # Łukasz Nawaro **Analyst, DELab, University of Warsaw** Łukasz is a Master's student in Data Science program at the Faculty of Economic Sciences at the University of Warsaw. At DELab UW, as a Junior Analyst, he is responsible for data analysis and processing in areas such as new technological trends and university's students, fields of study and real estate. His main programming language is Python, but he also has experience in JavaScript (d3.js, vue.js) as a data presentation tool. # Marco Zappalorto **CEO, Nesta Italia** Marco joined Nesta in 2011. Before setting up Nesta Italia he was Head of European Development at Nesta and contributed to the set-up of the Challenge Prize Centre. He led most of the Centre's European and international work, coordinated capacity building activities as part of the prizes and contributed to the design of some related initiatives, such as the ​European Social Innovation Competition​. Prior to Nesta, Marco worked for OmniCompete (now Innocentive), managing the execution of prize competitions in a wide range of sectors for both the public and the private sector. He also worked for the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry where he provided advice to SMEs on European issues and opportunities. Marco holds an MSc in European Political Economy from the London School of Economics and Political Science. # Simona Bielli @anon **Head of Programmes, Nesta Italia** ​Simona is Head of Programmes at Nesta Italia. She leads a portfolio of activities in the areas of education, inclusion, emerging tech, health and arts and culture. Before joining Nesta Italia, Simona spent three years in London working as Research and Programme Manager for the Digital Startup team at Nesta, where she managed a number of European-funded projects, including the European Digital Forum, aimed to fostering digital entrepreneurship in Europe. Prior to Nesta, Simona was Head of Operations at Mind the Bridge. She was responsible for managing multiple activities both in Europe and US aimed to support ICT startups to scale-up. # Matteo Colombino **Innovation Manager, Nesta Italia** Matteo is the Innovation Manager at Nesta Italia. Matteo has the role of guiding innovation within the organization by contributing to the design, development, and delivery of projects and research on emerging technologies. In addition to this, he supports the director in business development activities. Before this role, he was responsible for the coordination, communication and general management of Nesta Italia's projects in the healthcare and technology sector, including also the research and experimenting phases. # Roberta Marà **Communications Manager, Nesta Italia** Roberta is Communications and Stakeholders Engagement Manager at Nesta Italia. She leads the planning and delivery of all Nesta Italia’s campaigns and is responsible for building and nurturing relationships with key stakeholders. Roberta has almost 10 years’ experience in corporate communications, media relations, brand strategy and digital. Before Nesta Italia, Roberta worked in the Entertainment industry - Sony Music and prior to that for the Turin based start up Sounday - specializing in digital transformation for the music sector, and for different start ups, focusing on strategic communications planning and brand development. Roberta also worked as a consultant for communications agencies both in London and Italy." 2,56904,2019-07-19T14:08:59.000Z,10384,1,21,20,1,0,0,29.2,56895,anon3554654177,anon3828707713,"Hi Nadia, Thanks for this! Can you add or should I? My bio Rob van Kranenburg, @anon He has authored The Internet of Things: A Critique of ambient technology and the all-seeing network of RFID (2007); co-author of Situated Technologies Pamphlets 8. He is Director of Resonance Design BV, partnering in the NGI CSA Strategy NGI Forward. Greetings, Rob" 3,56907,2019-07-19T16:03:12.584Z,10384,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,56895,anon2945747231,anon3828707713,"Oops, typo in mine, should be ""helped build"" @anon3828707713" 4,56909,2019-07-19T17:22:47.278Z,10384,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,56907,anon3828707713,anon2945747231,NP: its a wiki so you can change what you like 5,57099,2019-07-24T15:10:17.755Z,10384,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,56895,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,Can I ask you to fill out the section for you @anon1965424313 @anon 6,57100,2019-07-24T15:10:49.697Z,10384,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,56904,anon3828707713,anon3554654177,"added, thanks." 7,57499,2019-08-02T14:45:15.422Z,10384,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,56895,anon4051891560,anon3828707713,"@anon3828707713, here are the bios from Datalab (Aarhus University) **Anja Bechmann** Professor, Aarhus University and Research Director of Datalab Anja Bechmann’s research examines social media communication and collective behavior using large-scale data collection and applied machine learning. Her field of research are digital sociology, privacy, critical algorithmic and AI studies and digital news studies. She is board member of the anon2071999133ish Council for IT Security and ATV's Digital Sages and appointed member of the Academy of Technical Sciences. She acts as a supervisor for MA and PhD theses within the area of digital social research. She is member of several editorial boards, reviewer for international high-ranked journals within her field and has acted as assessment committee member for grant applications, professorships and PhD defenses. Her research has been funded by national and international research councils such as the anon2071999133ish Council for Independent Research, Swedish Research Council, anon2071999133ish Agency for Science and Innovation, Horizon 2020 and Aarhus University Research Foundation. **Lynge Asbjørn Møller** Research Assistant, Aarhus University and Project Coordinator at Datalab Lynge Asbjørn Møller holds a MA in Media Science from Aarhus University and is a member of AOiR (Association of Internet Researchers). He is a researcher and the center coordinator at the research center Datalab directed by Anja Bechmann, where he manages all research project at the center and engages himself in research in social media and digital information disorder. **Kristoffer Laigaard Nielbo** Associate Professor, Aarhus University and Co-Director of Datalab As a humanities researcher, Kristoffer Nielbo has specialized in applications of quantitative methods and computational tools in analysis, interpretation and storage of cultural data. He has participated in a range of collaborative and interdisciplinary research projects involving researchers from the humanities, social, health, and natural sciences. His research covers two areas of interest of which one is more recent (automated text analysis) and the other (modeling of cultural behavior) has followed me during his entire academic career. Both interests explore the cultural information space in new and innovative ways by combining cultural data and humanities theories with statistics, computer algorithms, and visualization. **Peter Vahlstrup** Associate Professor, Aarhus University and Lead Programmer at Datalab Peter Vahlstrup is teaching associate professor in JAVA and high-level programming and is the lead-programmer in the research center Datalab directed by Anja Bechmann. He is an expert in API-based data collection and has been lead-developer of the Digital Footprints software used for extracting social media data. Peter is daily manager of the Digital Footprints software package and administrate access, database storage and management of 465 researchers in 13 countries." 8,57500,2019-08-02T14:48:32.401Z,10384,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,57499,anon3828707713,anon4051891560,"Thanks @anon4051891560 , does everyone already have an account on the platform? I ask because the end format looks like this with each individual's handle at the top to make it easy for others to connect with them - so if possible it would be great if everyone can set one up? ![41|690x248](upload://dl8KMDMYgToLYx6xUsAXO5KtroG.png)" 9,57501,2019-08-02T15:08:30.610Z,10384,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,57500,anon4051891560,anon3828707713,"No, only me I think. I don't think they will join to be honest and even if they do, it will not be the way to get in contact with them. Sorry.." 10,57503,2019-08-02T15:11:30.082Z,10384,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,57501,anon3828707713,anon4051891560,"np, thanks anyway." 11,57635,2019-08-06T10:41:41.000Z,10384,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,57503,anon2794261635,anon3828707713,I just updated this list with all the bios received from Heshani and tagged all of those for whom I know usernames on the platform. Note to @anon1976898802 for the website. 1,56942,2019-07-21T18:19:19.190Z,10391,0,21,20,24,0,0,184.2,56942,anon1608948641,anon1608948641,"Let us talk about anon2696444391 we keep our online spaces useable. Let us talk about **moderation, mediation, censorship,** and **anon2863106368e policing**. There are probably also other techniques, but for now, talking about these four should suffice. And it is important to talk about them, because all of this is constantly happening online, for various reasons, and sometimes they get mixed, and sometimes one slowly descends into another. Wherever people communicate with each other, they usually set up a few rules and mechanisms to enforce them. Mostly, these rules are a bit vague, ad hoc and have formed over time as social customs emerge. If people violate these customs and unwritten rules, they get some social feedback to correct themselves, or eventually get ostracized from their communities. So if I'm rude to my friends, they eventually stop inviting me for dinner. This is a gradual, informal process, but effective nonetheless. But what I did say keeps being said. For a lot of our online communities though, the participants come together from so diverse places and customs that there is a need to formalize things a bit more, and to have designated people in place to enforce these rules. The result is usually a lot less gradual and also more formal and immediate. So instead of being less and less invited to dinners, I suddenly get formally shut out of the community by having my access to the online space revoked. Alternatively, my contributions to the space could get deleted, my voice silenced, even retroactively. When we discuss these rules and their enforcement, we can break them down into four core concepts: * **Moderation** - here certain topics or media are excluded, with a benign intent. The idea is make a certain online space suitable for a specific audience or topic. An example would be a ban of pornography for a space catering to minors, or the exclusion of car discussions in a forum dedicated to bird watching. * **Censorship** - moderations evil twin. It basically is the same thing, excluding certain topics from a space, but it implies a sinister motive. A political party forbids the opposition to be heard, a group of people is to be shut out and marginalized. Still, it is important to realise that censorship and moderation are often technically the same beast. The main difference is that censorship is often also covert and opaque, whereas good moderation is documented and transparent. * **Mediation** - this includes a vast variety of techniques, but it boils down to the effort of making a friendly and productive communication possible. Mediation doesn't prohibit a topic to be discussed, but tries to prevent an argument to devolve into a shouting match. This can be achieved by translating sentiments or ideas, by encouraging participants to use or avoid specific rhetorics, and so on. As with moderation, mediation has a benign intention, it is a tool to enable communication. It should be transparent insofar as that everyone knows that mediation is happening, and with which intent. * **Tone policing** is mediation taken too far or being misused. It is especially a thing used by people in power to shut down those who aren't. Valid arguments or complaints get thrown out unless the person making them submits to sometimes arbitrary rules.Mediation and anon2863106368e policing employ a very similar toolset, but as with moderation and censorship, the malicious or sinister motive is what makes it a bad thing. To be clear: Tone policing is a tool of oppression. The problem with both of these two pairings is the huge gray area between them. Just two very simple examples: One can try to gently mediate and end up excluding a group of marginalized people through anon2863106368e policing. Or one can try to keep pornography away from kids but in the same run also shut off any access to sex education. Whenever we find ourselves in charge of designing policies on anon2696444391 any given social platform or online community should work, we need to think about these problems. At best alongside a friendly conversation with everyone who could be affected by these policies, especially those who are often marginalized or overlooked. There aren't any perfect solutions, but a lot of catastrophically wrong ones." 2,57122,2019-07-25T04:55:02.019Z,10391,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,56942,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,"Good analysis. My basic approach is: don't rip anyone off, don't harass others, don't get us into legal trouble and don't be a jerk. And yes you do know what that means. And then...let er rip." 3,57198,2019-07-26T17:15:32.043Z,10391,2,15,14,4,0,0,33.0,56942,anon3379761435,anon1608948641,"Has anyone thought about consensual anon2863106368e deafness? To explain what I mean, here's a story from the OpenVillage Festival (#workspaces:lote6). A German guy (I think it was Henry, @anon2979480439, from [Wir bauen Zukunft](/t/7127)) said something that fell foul of an American woman present there. She told him off, very publicly, as a white male neoliberal or something. We looked at each other in disbelief, for we had heard no such thing. The situation was solved by @anon3828707713 (bilingual, a native speaker of English and Swedish of very international background, and deft at navigating cultural contexts), who explained that the woman was trying to read Henry as she would read an American of his age and skin anon2863106368e, and was picking up a subtext that simply was not there. She pointed out to the woman that he was doing all the work to communicate with her in her native language, and she, instead of being grateful (or learning German to improve their communication), was punishing him for not knowing the English language _and_ the contemporary anglo-American culture like a native. She then asked her to leave. Tone policing is often problematic, but even with mediation, it's not clear to me who is qualified to do it in a context like Edgeryders. Few people have Nadia's ability to cross cultural borders. And people like Henry, or me – we speak good English, even great English, but we cannot guarantee the fine command of subtext that we would have in our native languages. Native English speakers might get many false positives, and think we are being inconsiderate or even violent, while we are simply out of our linguistic and cultural comfort zone. Hence, consensual anon2863106368e deafness. A rule that says: _to accommodate people who are operating outside their native language (in Edgeryders, that's the majority, whichever language you choose), we don't engage with anything that has not been said explicitly. If you are in doubt, ask: do you think what I wrote was dumb? Are you trying to make the point that [insert project/organization name] is a puppet of some vast neoliberal movement? Stuff like that._ @anon3203746736's strategy of forbidding only the most obviously wrong stuff is in the same direction, I think." 4,57200,2019-07-26T18:04:41.162Z,10391,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,57198,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"This is where ""oversupply understanding"" comes in." 5,57218,2019-07-27T10:41:21.000Z,10391,1,17,16,2,0,0,48.4,57198,anon2979480439,anon3379761435,"Dear Alberto! I cannot recall a situation like the one you described. Might have been someone else. However, I've experienced situations where my words were misinterpreted in a way I saw myself confronted with an accusation of being inappropriate (or even worse, abusive). And it happens irrespective of me speaking English or in my mother anon2863106368gue. In most cases this can be resolved by further communication. It depends if both parties are willing to resolve the issue and if there's an adequate amount of trust. And if there's a mediation angel like Nadia around chances are even better. Still I don't think this sort of situations can be prevented by a specific ruleset. Until we are all illuminated we're going to react here and there to emotions triggered by some words or actions of others. It's part of the process ;) So I'd add up to John's list: don't take yourself too seriously. Hope you guys are doing good! Drop me a message, when you get to Berlin. Would love to catch up. Much love Henry" 6,57247,2019-07-29T10:28:52.512Z,10391,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,57218,anon3379761435,anon2979480439,"I'm pretty sure it was you... maybe you are so enlightened that you ignored, and immediately forgot, the woman's criticism. :slight_smile:" 7,57267,2019-07-29T13:14:41.000Z,10391,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,57247,anon2979480439,anon3379761435,"Do you remember the day and venue/room and the topic of the discussion? I'm keen to bring it back to my memory. // Henry Farkas 017662855974 [www.down2earth.org](http://www.down2earth.org) [www.wirbauenzukunft.de](http://www.wirbauenzukunft.de) [www.earthship-deutschland.de](http://www.earthship-deutschland.de)" 8,57273,2019-07-29T13:25:35.238Z,10391,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,57267,anon3379761435,anon2979480439,I think it might have been the harvesting session at the end of day 1 @anon 9,57286,2019-07-29T15:58:21.963Z,10391,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,57273,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"It was in some kind of plenary session. It was fleeting, lasted less than a minute." 10,57527,2019-08-03T23:32:30.822Z,10391,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,57200,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"I should also add that there seem to always be some around who want to correct, indeed anon2863106368e police, their peers in conversations independent of any moderator action and the conversation can sort of derail into a drawn out debate on who is right, whether offense was given or taken, theories about intent and other aspects. I see this as not to be avoided but it can get so involved that the original discussion gets lost. It’s part of anon2696444391 a community arrives at its standards. Moderation in such cases requires not some Solomon-like judgement that cleanly deals with it all, but rather a kind is ongoing summing up and often a nudge over to where it can be discussed on its own. I say nudge because too strictly making everyone stick strictly to the topic in the header can be stifling in its own right." 11,57601,2019-08-05T19:06:15.487Z,10391,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,56942,anon3203746736,anon1608948641,"The more I think about this subject the more convinced I am that what is really needed is much more design and building of the user-controlled experience. I have done a lot of moderating in my life and managed systems that use moderation extensively. But it increasingly concerns me that ad-based business models for social media networks are in so much conflict with the individual controlling their own experience in that network that they choose instead to do moderating that is essentially a rear guard action form of censorship. Or if not censorship let us call it a continuation of the networks control of the users experience because they cannot relinquish that control without breaking their business model. I certainly understand and sympathize with a statement like “let’s make all users safe.“ But who decides what safe even means? And from the user perspective, I do not need a censor or even someone remotely resembling one. And in Facebook‘s case, I do not trust them at all about anything. Why should I? But I think we all agree on that point. Not that I don’t use it, I do. And I think I know the trade-offs. However I will never find out what it is they won’t sanon2696444391 me and I don’t like that. So again what I want is control over my own environment. If I don’t want to see something I want to be the one to decide. If I don’t like someone’s anon2863106368e I’ll say so. Now I do understand the problem of hate speech I think and it is a thorny problem. But again who decides what I, an adult can and cannot see? Hate to speech is a definite problem but where does one draw the line? One idea I take from when I managed a public radio station that is non-commercial, is the idea of the “call to action.” In such a case one might say all kinds of derogatory things about others and it would be offensive but if they do not make a call to action then perhaps it is best dealt with by the people in the conversation who can either hopefully ignore the person or filter them out or just let them know that such statements say more about them then the people they are criticizing. Regarding kids, I managed an online community that was almost exclusively populated with teenagers and we had to observe child protection laws very carefully. I support those laws and there are ways to keep those environments pretty safe, but it is expensive to manage because you need a lot of on the ground moderation plus sophisticated software for identifying problems and you need parents who take responsibility for their children’s well-being and do not delegate that to surrogates." 12,57604,2019-08-05T20:35:24.919Z,10391,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,57601,anon3203746736,anon3203746736," There is the problem of scaling up to a very large size of user base. I admit that the systems I have managed never got that huge, not more than several thousand people. At those sizes more hands-on moderation from the company can be pretty effective. But when the site/platform scales up really large, anon2696444391 do you keep moderating decisions from being increasingly arbitrary? This to me lends more strength to the argument that more focus should be placed on giving the user more control rather than devising more sophisticated ways of company management of the user experience." 1,54467,2019-06-03T20:44:13.209Z,10068,0,30,29,66,0,0,426.0,54467,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"My friend [Fabrizio Barca](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrizio_Barca) has a rare combination of characteristics: a first-rate intellect, an impressive network in policy making circles, and a keen interest in justice. He has lately become intrigued by inequalities: what they are, anon2696444391 they are changing, what we can do about it. So, he started a group called the [Forum on inequalities and diversities](https://www.forumdisuguaglianzediversita.org/our-project/). The Forum recently released a report called 15 proposals for justice ([Italian only](https://www.forumdisuguaglianzediversita.org/proposte-per-la-giustizia-sociale/)), which is making waves. The report gives prominence to the consequences of technical innovation on inequalities and justice. So, here is the idea. @anon3828707713 and I would like to organize a small meeting to look in more depth at the issue of anon2696444391 equality and justice are encoded in technological choices. Specifically, it would be interesting to look at the main technologies being developed in the NGI debate (blockchain folks, [decentralists](/t/10023), the fintech crowd etc.), and see anon2696444391 each impact on indicators of equality and justice. Putting in the same room technologists, economists and social scientists should allow for a more holistic perspective. For me, the interesting question is: **are some technologies more likely to lead to an outcome of increased justice than other technologies**? If there are, we might consider Hopefully, we can provide some material to the people in charge of the next round of [NGI Open Calls](https://www.ngi.eu/opencalls/), and whoever is looking to fund new technologies that are human-centric, trust-enhancing and so on. We are talking Brussels, October 2019. What do people think? @anon1732761404, would you be interested? What about @anon2682865457? Others?" 2,54477,2019-06-04T06:17:57.911Z,10068,0,28,27,1,0,0,40.6,54467,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,@anon2945747231 @anon659222949 @anon850704935 @anon3203746736 @anon1753543892 another one to invite people in the IOH and broader Edgeryders community to help develop and promote. 3,54546,2019-06-04T15:54:58.475Z,10068,0,27,26,1,0,0,10.4,54467,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,Great idea. Gets to the real heart of the matter. 4,60691,2019-10-04T14:47:57.082Z,10068,0,1,0,1,0,0,5.2,54467,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"10 posts were merged into an existing topic: [Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them - 19/11 - Brussels](/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/25)" 7,54736,2019-06-08T10:01:42.017Z,10068,1,24,23,1,0,0,14.8,54467,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"I think @anon Zoe has a significant body of work weaving through manufacturing, tech and social justice. Gunnar's doing interesting work in fintech/ mobile money that touches on exclusion from access to banking services outside Europe while Max Valentin has interesting experience from working with Romani buskers in Sweden. And before this Max set up a crowdfunding platform for culture with the twist that public funding would co-finance the projects that succeeded to get enough financial backing from the general public." 8,54737,2019-06-08T10:03:05.904Z,10068,0,24,23,1,0,0,54.8,54736,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,@anon659222949 you and Max really should meet 9,60693,2019-10-04T15:01:20.127Z,10068,0,1,0,1,0,0,5.2,54467,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"4 posts were merged into an existing topic: [Workshop on Inequalities in the age of AI, what they are, anon2696444391 they work and what we can do about them - 19/11 - Brussels](/t/workshop-on-inequalities-in-the-age-of-ai-what-they-are-anon2696444391-they-work-and-what-we-can-do-about-them-19-11-brussels/10326/35)" 13,54945,2019-06-12T08:50:57.425Z,10068,2,22,21,4,0,0,199.4,54467,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"We will organise a one-day event in Brussels at End of November, 2019. **Day session:** focuses on Ai as tech. Key audience is MEPS, parliamentary assistants and key people at EC. Location is Near European Parliament. Exact format t.b.d. In partnership with: _...feel free to add your own suggestions here_ (I am discussing with FEPS). **Evening session:** focuses on tech & socialecological sustainability. Key audience is the tech/hacker scene. Details T.b.d with @anon3093654461 re: a collaboration with Digityser. I will be in the driving seat to make it happen together with our outreach teams as this is a topic that touches on both the Internet of Humans and Wellbeing in Europe initiatives. And it makes sense to have it as a focal point if we want this work we are doing to have some kind of political impact right now - i can explain during our next call. To prepare and drive engagement towards this event, we want to have a focused campaign to surface experiences, people, projects, places and collective insights that will feed into this event
_Ping @anon2945747231 @anon850704935 @anon659222949 @anon" 14,54953,2019-06-12T09:31:53.630Z,10068,2,22,21,2,0,0,39.4,54945,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,"@anon3828707713 can we pinpoint a date already? Tuesday 19th November, for example? (the final week of November there is a session in Strasbourg, I think: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sed/doc/news/lookingaheadagenda/21361/Cal2019_en.pdf) Pinpointing a date eliminates the need for another round of confirmations and makes logistics simpler." 15,54954,2019-06-12T09:35:24.450Z,10068,0,21,20,2,0,0,29.2,54953,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,Ok @anon3093654461 ping. 16,54981,2019-06-12T11:56:15.640Z,10068,1,21,20,2,0,0,19.2,54953,anon3093654461,anon3379761435,"Let me see what is happening that day on our side.. I also need to know : How much people is projected to come? What format? (panel? , speakers + presentation slide?, interactions layer for the public?) If we brainstorm this well we can organize something unique & really good for the community! Let me know what you need!" 17,54982,2019-06-12T12:02:13.412Z,10068,0,18,17,2,0,0,13.6,54945,anon3093654461,anon3828707713,OK now I see the idea.. This is really cool! I definitely want this event to happen! 18,54983,2019-06-12T12:05:39.652Z,10068,2,19,18,2,0,0,23.8,54981,anon3828707713,anon3093654461,Can we organise the next IOH community call around co-designing this event and the process leading up to it? What do you think @anon3203746736 and @anon1753543892 ? 19,55088,2019-06-13T15:30:01.854Z,10068,0,19,18,1,0,0,53.8,54983,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"Sure, maybe scheduling it for next month? Or what type of timeline did you have in mind @anon3828707713? I put it here https://anon1577251828.eu/t/community-calls-lets-talk-almost-face-to-face/10110 as a reply" 27,57481,2019-08-02T12:25:02.501Z,10068,3,14,13,2,0,0,72.8,54983,anon1753543892,anon3828707713,"How about we set up the next two community calls, on August the 20th and September the 3rd of September as ""How to get involved with the Edgeryders festival"" meetings for the whole community (directly inviting members who we would like to participate to clear up the process with them and see if maybe there is some overlap with other so they ould team-up.) The next one on September 17th could be about discussing the concrete topics and ideas of those who will participate before they start writing their preparation threads. From there we could see if we want to talk more about one of those threads/topics already ahead of the festival or what the next steps for the calls would be. What do you think @anon3828707713, @anon2945747231 and @anon3203746736 ?" 28,57482,2019-08-02T12:42:47.468Z,10068,0,14,13,2,0,0,12.8,57481,anon3828707713,anon1753543892,yes 29,57513,2019-08-03T05:29:58.445Z,10068,0,14,13,2,0,0,27.8,57481,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,"great idea @anon1753543892. @anon850704935 we make a (mental) note on this and (pre-emptively) start designing best outreach plan" 30,57526,2019-08-03T21:49:58.904Z,10068,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,57481,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,Sounds good to me. 1,56692,2019-07-15T05:54:14.605Z,10348,0,20,19,391,0,0,1974.0,56692,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![communitycalls%20logo%2023rd%20july|690x488](upload://4fbbsO8aPCW1Ewc0IwpsvTSZ0ij.png) *image by Maria Euler* ## Join us this Tuesday, July 23rd, at 6PM for our next community call with our fellow Peter Bihr. In this call we’ll dive into “Things about the Internet of Things” through an interview and in-depth discussion with Peter, who works on the intersection of emerging tech and societal good. “I deeply care about the impact of emerging technologies on society and our day-to-day lives. I believe that tech, both as a set of tools and as an industry, has a huge impact and hence an obligation to do better—not just for the most privileged but everyone.” Join the discussion with Peter on anything Internet of Things related, and get to know others on the Edgeryders platform for engaging, thought-provoking and captivating conversations. Join the Zoom meeting here. https://zoom.us/j/137706302" 2,56963,2019-07-22T10:39:05.848Z,10348,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,56692,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,"I'm very excited about this call tomorrow with @anon Think @anon3554654177 and @anon1965424313 surely would be interested as it's IoT related? Others that come to mind are @anon3778288340 @anon1016081892 @anon2503645710 - who else? :)" 3,56965,2019-07-22T11:04:55.000Z,10348,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,56963,anon3554654177,anon2945747231,"Hi Inge, I already mentioned I am not available tomorrow, but that I am looking forward to a detailed report so I can contribute later, greetings, Rob" 4,57052,2019-07-23T16:02:33.510Z,10348,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,56692,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,We've started! Hope to see you there! :) 5,57178,2019-07-26T08:13:35.521Z,10348,1,7,6,1,0,0,26.4,56692,anon2719157517,anon1753543892,I missed it - have you maybe recorded it? I'd love to listen to it! 6,57394,2019-07-31T15:24:34.988Z,10348,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,57178,anon3203746736,anon2719157517,Yes it is here on the platform in audio and text. 1,56578,2019-07-12T22:02:26.715Z,10342,1,25,24,12,0,0,85.0,56578,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"A big part of the problem, as i understand it, is the way that Facebook and Twitter set up their feeds to stoke controversy and polarization. If it stayed as a controlled boil they would prefer that since they can sell more ads that way. But it does boil over and then they think they have to start censoring some of the bile they in fact encourage as a business model. I want user control. I do not want them acting as censors when it suits them and then in other cases claiming it isn't their responsibility. I personally abhor hate speech, but I don't see anon2696444391 it can be fairly defined or enforced. In porn, there are ""community standards"" that put a lid on it some places, but we're talking about planetary services. And maybe I want to see the unvarnished full view of what people are saying. I am an adult, why would I not be allowed to see it? or maybe I don't want to see it. Then let me decide. Not Facebook or Twitter. They don't exactly have trustable ethics for such powers." 2,56587,2019-07-13T05:39:11.540Z,10342,1,24,23,2,0,0,19.8,56578,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"you are pointing in a very very valid direction where large part of the problem lies. Just listened [to this podcast](https://gimletmedia.com/sanon2696444391s/reply-all/rnhzlo/145-louder) about the Carlos Maza saga, anon2696444391 Steve Crowder violated Youtube's hate speech rules (but still got away with it because his following is too big basically). But main take away is second part of the podcast in which they explain anon2696444391 it is possible that franon2945747231 voices became so big, and anon2696444391 they're only now realizing anon2696444391 they've helped radicalize people. (and this article fromThe Verge tells [anon2696444391 they're now going to even get rid of algorithms](https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/11/20690736/youtube-learning-playlists-algorithm-recommendations) with educational playlists, ""So you won’t fall asleep during chemistry lessons and wake up to conspiracy theories."")" 3,56592,2019-07-13T13:21:30.847Z,10342,1,20,19,2,0,0,19.0,56587,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,"That article about YouTube playing nice for kids tends to make me more cynical about them rather than less. We’ll do the right thing for your kids but we’ll keep on manipulating you. Still, it sanon2696444391s that they respond to some pressure. Which has been anon2373157426 heavy lately given anon2696444391 shameless they have been in exploiting kids." 4,56593,2019-07-13T13:27:50.592Z,10342,1,18,17,2,0,0,33.6,56592,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,I need to find the reference but I read recently that controversy and polarization raise ad revenue more than the happy kitty photos and the cuddly babies. Since they are publicly traded they can’t let their stock price go down as if they were part of some socially responsible portfolio. Can’t have that. Sometimes I think of it metaphorically not so much as a road but rather as a anon928544562sled or luge run where once you get going there is no getting off. 5,56597,2019-07-13T14:35:24.177Z,10342,2,17,16,2,0,0,23.4,56593,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"This [article in Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/the-toxic-potential-of-youtubes-feedback-loop/) lays it out pretty well. "" Earlier this year, researchers at Google’s Deep Mind examined the [impact of recommender systems](https://www.groundai.com/project/degenerate-feedback-loops-in-recommender-systems/1), such as those used by YouTube and other platforms. They [concluded](https://twitter.com/DeepMindAI/status/1101514121563041792) that “feedback loops in recommendation systems can give rise to ‘echo chambers’ and ‘filter bubbles,’ which can narrow a user’s content exposure and ultimately shift their worldview.” The model didn’t take into account anon2696444391 the recommendation system influences the kind of content that's created. In the real world, AI, content creators, and users heavily influence one another. Because AI aims to maximize engagement, hyper-engaged users are seen as “models to be reproduced.” AI algorithms will then favor the content of such users. The feedback loop works like this: (1) People who spend more time on the platforms have a greater impact on recommendation systems. (2) The content they engage with will get more views/likes. (3) Content creators will notice and create more of it. (4) People will spend even more time on that content. That's why it’s important to know who a platform's hyper-engaged users are: They’re the ones we can examine in order to predict which direction the AI is tilting the world."" So in other words, what we see is largely a product from people with nothing better to do with their time.." 6,56626,2019-07-13T21:04:30.050Z,10342,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,56597,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"That's exactly what the podcast touched upon as well: YouTube's drive to get to 1billion views and having every decision - from design to algorithms -- designed to get people watch more and more. They apparently joked about the previous algorithm being called the Gangam Style algorithm: every video would eventually lead to Gangam Style, the most popular video at that time. They started realizing that just sanon2696444391ing the same content but more popular did lead to more views per video, but not more minutes watched (if you get feed exactly the same video but watched by more people, you may like it, but you won't continue watching it). So, the culprit is that YouTube's aim to make YouTube profittable (which it wasn't when Google bought it), it's need to have people watch more and more, led them to create something allowing franon2945747231 voices to be in your feed when you're just looking for a video on anon2696444391 to your lawn, and now you're a flat earther." 7,56634,2019-07-14T01:12:28.864Z,10342,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,56626,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,"Right. They always need you to think you’re getting it all for free. And of course you are monetarily. But they need to be pretty non transparent about it because none of them make that much unless they follow you around and compile where you go and what you do. User control is not just a policy issue. And not just a privacy or bubble issue. Or a UI issue. It is all of them. Facebook would say, “but you do have user control. You control who your friends are, many privacy settings, what groups you want to join and so much else.” But what about following me around? What if I control that for myself? What if I say don’t follow me here (have private browsing but Matt Coleman security expert extraordinaire says they aren’t all that private) but you can follow me to these sites while I shop for something, and when I find it you leave me alone again, as one example. Anyway I don’t see anon2696444391 at this point the giant companies can be controlled other than to enforce ways that allow authentic competition. Fining them does nothing as far as I can tell. Right now they just crush or buy what looks interesting or makes them more profitable or dominant. And again this is the anon928544562sled course. Go fast and can’t get off." 8,56638,2019-07-14T01:51:54.134Z,10342,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,56578,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"I was watching tv just now and an ad came on for Hewlett-Packard laptops. The theme read, “Be you. Nobody’s watching. Now with webcam kill switch.” Oh wow big feature. Now you don’t need tape. It does reflect though a change in the blanket acceptance of blessed tech." 9,56746,2019-07-15T19:35:39.793Z,10342,0,13,12,1,1,0,7.6,56597,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:5, topic:10342""] That’s why it’s important to know who a platform’s hyper-engaged users are: They’re the ones we can examine in order to predict which direction the AI is tilting the world. [/quote] In Edgeryders, that would be me! :smiley: Do we even have recommendation algos?" 10,57278,2019-07-29T14:16:57.806Z,10342,1,11,10,1,0,0,27.2,56578,anon2945747231,anon3203746736,"Oh boom, this just sanon2696444391ed up in my feed https://eos.org/articles/majority-of-youtube-climate-videos-promote-nonconsensus-views Also interesting to #earthos crew and @anon3822657227" 11,57281,2019-07-29T14:47:59.046Z,10342,0,11,10,1,0,0,22.2,57278,anon3822657227,anon2945747231,"Thanks @anon2945747231 for the ping. WTF is the first thing that comes to my mind. Then, well, there's a lot to say about that. I take some time to think about it and I'll come back to you." 12,57345,2019-07-30T16:40:24.489Z,10342,0,9,8,1,0,0,51.8,56578,anon1608948641,anon3203746736,"From the end users point of view, especially with a platform like YouTube, where you essentially do the digital equivalent of channel zapping, a recommendation algorithm is key. The problem is that for YouTube, this algorithm is ultimately controlled by the wrong metric (is this ""engagement"", that drives advertising consumption and hence revenue?). The solution though isn't simply to abolish the algorithm - we still want a system that sanon2696444391s us new things. And these new things should ideally blip us out of our bubble, but in a way that doesn't make us uncomfortable or, worse, bored. We're toying with the idea of making the algorithm transparent and user-controlled, but it's hard to do right. The fetched content should be relevant, new, interesting, and still in tune with the users preferences someanon2696444391. And it needs to be clear _why_ each and every bit of new content is presented to the user, so they understand what is going on. Getting an algorithmic feed needs to be a pull operation, not a push one. That means that the user needs to actively ask for the algorithmic feed. Each and every time. The default needs to be a sorted timeline view. And if that gets too full, the user should be asked to curate which content is sanon2696444391n there, and which sources get pushed to the backburner." 1,53998,2019-05-25T19:33:48.220Z,10007,1,26,25,111,0,0,655.2,53998,anon1593485621,anon1593485621,"You wake up in cuba, have your morning coffee, and you need to send an email. There is no wifi in your house. You take your computer and walk to the nearest park. There a young man is standing on the corner offering small green cards. On them is a wifi name and the password to access it. All around you on every bench and corner sit young couples on their smartphones, older college students working on papers, and mothers watching children play. It is here, outside, among the screams of children and the general buzz of people that you can log on. This park is where the internet lives. Even this small shift of place, from ubiquity to locality subverts an assumption we all make about about the most important interface of the modern world.. In this internet, via this infrastructure, what does it mean to be online? It is fair to wonder if even this small shift would allow for certain forms we take for granted in our ubiquitous and isolated internet. It is fair to wonder, for example, if the sort of anonymous hate much of the western internet has been inundated by could even exist. Still, this is only a shift of one factor, out of isolation and into the communal. Once online the computer is still built for isolated use, the log in still for one person. What we are given here is not a resolution but a hint at the possible. Scattered across the world there are other shifts and other hints. There have been documented cases of entire families using a single facebook profile. There are stands at public markets for thumb drives of "content" in areas where censorship is heavy. If we hold back our attempts at "why" these systems exist and take a moment to simply appreciate that they exist we can follow their existence to the simple conclusion. Isolated and ubiquitous internets are just a choice. What if we're doing it wrong? By we I mean the colonial sense, as in western civilization and western culture. By it I mean the internet. Specifically the sort of access we build its infrastructure to facilitate. There is a prevailing sense that the internet, like water, should have an infrastructure that allows for simple and uninterrupted, ubiquitous, access. At its base this sentiment is a noble one. Like water and education the internet should be accessible by every human on the planet, and this access should be easily had. However, the more one looks the more one finds flaws in, or at the very least other ways of approaching, the concept that the access should be everywhere all the time. With that in mind, why on earth should wifi be ubiquitous? The prevailing colonial western logic establishes the following basic premise: Because it is good and when something is good it should be everywhere all the time. If you're not american and this seems foreign or confusing to you then consult the Mcdonald's Logic: People like burgers, so people should have constant and immediate access to burgers. This stems from the also very american sense that conflates objects with freedom and freedom with democracy. It works like this, In america freedom has no real definition but it is unanimously agreed upon that whatever it is is good and that everyone should have it everywhere. All of this is derivative of the founding ethos, "Democracy is good, democracy should be everywhere all the time." The final and parent logic I find to be true. It's derivative statements less and less so with every consecutive leap down the family tree. So the question we come to explore is about the statement, "The internet is good, and so it should be everywhere all the time." Is the internet good? We can address that quickly, it is not. That doesn't mean the internet is "bad." We're just asking the wrong question. The internet is a technology. Technology builds tools. It is immensely weird to point to something like that and blurt out "controlled combustion is good," because its not. Controlled combustion is not inherently good. It is good at building particular sorts of things. But, perhaps we mean the things it builds are good. So our question becomes, "The things the Internet builds are good." Again, no they aren't. It follows from essentially the same reason as above. A tool is not good. A tool is good for certain tasks. Controlled combustion is good at building guns. Guns are not good--they aren't bad either. Guns are good for abruptly ending somethings life. The same is true of internal combustion engines, they aren't good, they are good for building machines that move fast or lift heavy or, coincidentally, end somethings life very abruptly. A technology is good at something. A tool is good for something. Conversely, they are very bad at other things and they are very bad for other things. So no, the internet is not "good". "...and so it should be everywhere all the time." Here a definition in isolation no longer works. We're talking about integration and interaction at a massive scale. This is about industry and culture and environment and, as a result, politics. So often we address this by simply saying, "The internet should be everywhere because it promotes freedom." If you don’t want to read the rest of this section then it will serve you just refer to the previous mentioning of the american definition--or lack thereof-- of freedom and to wonder to yourself "Is it a good idea to write policy and build infrastructure based off some ill defined and simple sentences that, owing to their lack of definition, mean at once so much and so anon2488317424." You could also skip that and just read the news. There are a series of much discussed points refuting that the internet promotes freedom, some of the best being those outlined in the Ukrainian net theorist Evgeny Morozov's book "The Net Delusion." In the next short section I will briefly outline these points for those without better things to do. If you already believe me than skip down to the paragraph that begins "do not be afraid." The internet is just as useful for anti-democratic regimes and generally "anti-freedom" dictators as it is for those groups americans selectively deem "freedom fighters". In some cases much more so. A fantastic example of this is the much publicized roll of the internet via microblogging sites twitter and facebook in the protests and subsequent revolutions that were the Arab Spring and Euromaiden. At the time and still to this day is a story is often repeated in which the internet had a pivotal role in the incepting and directing of those moments. Tahir and Independence Square were said to be hotbeds of twitter activity in which tech savvy freedom fighters typed away, organizing brilliant and seemingly instant fronts that, just in time, would mass and disappear like so many white blood cells attacking the disease of fascism. This is a good story. The women and men who made up these movements were unspeakably brave and I do them no justice here. However, that particular story, of the sort of role that the internet played in these movements, turns out to be not exactly true. When the actual posts surrounding these events were looked at more closely it became clear that while not entirely false, the role of the internet in the organization and mobilization of people was greatly exaggerated. The internet was certainly used, but not in the way the western(or eastern for that matter) media told the story. Rather than say "look anon2696444391 good the internet is as a tool for freedom" we begin to ask "anon2696444391 useful was the internet as a tool in these movements?" and then to the better question "was the internet as useful to the protestors(freedom) as it was to the government's(fascism)?" This evolution is important for us because it moves us very far away from the original ill defined premise and closer to the actual issue. Years later, Looking now at those movements and their eventual repercussions, no less at the internet's role in those repercussions, we are further pushed to question our ethos surrounding the internets sainthood, and much more seriously, the forms we choose to physically manifest it in. Further, if the internet's use in expanding so called freedoms is questionable, then it's ability to diminish them is concrete fact. Dictatorships can use and have used the internet for reliably identifying and locating political dissidents en masse, selectively censoring public discourse in real time, creating swarms of trolls that intimidate voices and obfuscate fact, and a very long list of other both evil and rather anon2945747231nious tools built from this technology. Do not be afraid. I raise these issues not in hopes of prohibition or to engender fear in any way. The internet does much good. I do it simply to call into question--not to repudiate--the architecture of a political system in its fullest sense. I mean the complex and human made system that links belief and idea to industry, culture, society, finance, and policy. The structure of which that anon2488317424 idea above sits within as a pivot sanon2863106368e. There have been many essays and books and movies which highlight both the good and objectively evil of the internet and I do not wish to spend anymore time focused on it. If you're unconvinced or curious Mr. Morozov has 400 pages of argument for you. I am not offended if you stop reading this and go jump into that. But the morality of the internet is too philosophical a discussion for my taste. This is not what I wish to talk to you about. I have focused on it simply because with an idea it is enough to find one simple flaw, among much perfection or many other flaws just like it, in order to do irreparable harm to the blind acceptance of that idea. And it is irreparable harm I wish to do and hope I have done. In short, it turns out that the morality of the internet, like the morality of any technology is nothing but the sum of a tool and the instant of its implementation. Even this is determined only by the particular window from which we saw a particular hand fire a particular gun at a particular being for an unknown but certainly very particular reason. In a word, it's difficult. And that is all we need to know for now. I will now take a moment after that particularly long, though I hope not too boring, enumeration of issues with a premise to remind the reader that this is about place. We are asking whether or not the internet should be everywhere. This is a matter of place because everywhere is all of them. Wonderfully, we are not in terra incognita talking about anon2696444391 we build technology into tool and tools into place. This discussion is in many ways at the heart of the story of human civilization. Every time we push the boundary of the real we have had to find some form for it to take and some way for it to be used and subsequently understood. It must have somewhere to be. Looking over our shoulder this way it may seem that while to be human is to love and think and create, to be "humanity"--at once singularly it and plurally apart of it--is to find a place for the things we love, think of, and create. We place them so well that too often we mistake what is for what should be, what has been, and what will be. We tend to see the current manifestations of technology as part of some inevitable construct. But, history is not a straight line. Nothing made by human hand from human mind is a part of anything beyond the history that shaped the culture that raised the mind that used the hand to build the thing(hagadyah). The tools we make and the infrastructures we build around them are both simply artifacts. There is no absolute principle or universal truth that they manifest. Things can be made differently. Infrastructure can take different shapes. The permutations are likely infinite. Simply put, things can be radically different. "...alone everywhere" Often in our western imaganings we view time spent on the internet as anti-social. The image comes to mind of a pale man in a dark room illuminated only by the blue glow of his computer. I imagine all of us have seen this picture or can at least imagine it all too easily. But if we are to question it I believe we would find three pivots. (1) why is he white? (2) why is he a he? (3) why is he alone? The first two have simple, though consistently ignored answers. (1) systems of white supremacy in our culture that paint all protagonists as white. (2) patriarchal systems in our culture that paint all protagonists as men. those systems were built, are not inevitable, and deserve to be radically altered. I won't dedicate much time to them here not because they aren't important but because the third leads us somewhere I'd like to go with you. It's answer too can be stated simply. (3)Because we built the interfaces of the internet to emphasis a physical isolation. Computers, hand-held or otherwise, have been built with one screen and one keyboard. The digital interfaces via which we log on are singular, the profiles we build personal. The interfaces via which we utilize the internet are absolutely exclusionary. It is important the we remember it does not have to be this way just because it currently is this way. Further, as we build the internet to be everywhere, if we accept that the physical objects and built interfaces via which we utilize the internet are isolated and emphasise an exclusion then everywhere we access it we are physically isolating ourselves. We are emphasizing an exclusion. This is an effect of the current technological institution in the western white world. There are already alternate forms of access that turn these assumptions on their head. Imagine an internet that is outdoors and entirely communal. Imagine an internet which emphasises public life and community, the opposite of the isolated, indoor, private interfaces via which we currently interact. You do not have to simply imagine. All around us there are important hints, not utopias, but glimpses at other possibilities." 2,54003,2019-05-26T09:51:53.245Z,10007,1,21,20,1,1,0,59.2,53998,anon1753543892,anon1593485621,"[quote=""anon1593485621, post:1, topic:10007""] Imagine an internet that is outdoors and entirely communal. Imagine an internet which emphasises public life and community, the opposite of the isolated, indoor, private interfaces via which we currently interact. You do not have to simply imagine. All around us there are important hints, not utopias, but glimpses at other possibilities. [/quote] Hello @anon1593485621, Thank you so much for this well written and thoughtful essay on our assumptions and the morality challenges surrounding the internet and (western) developments. And also for ending it on an optimistic note. This is the right anon2863106368e to develop the Internet of Humans :). Would be great to hear a bit more about your background as well! What do you do? Where are you from? In which of those hints and projects sanon2696444391ing glimpses of this other internet are you involved or would you like to be involved? And finally, do you happen to have an image to go with your essay? We would love to share it further and that helps. If not I would make one from a quote from the text, if that is ok with you. If so, would you want to choose it yourself or should I just pick one?" 3,54013,2019-05-26T19:42:59.143Z,10007,2,20,19,1,0,0,19.0,54003,anon1593485621,anon1753543892,"Thank you so much for your kind words! I'm very grateful you enjoyed it. My background is as an applied mathematician. I study complexity and chaos mostly with a lot of focus on networks. In terms of the hints and projects I'm currently working on creating/finding/synthesizing alternative interest-free financial products based off of risk sharing and networks of communities to aid in construction and maintenance of local/communal grids (broadband, energy, water, etc). I'm also working on using the Pirate Box project and expanding it a bit to create neighborhood/city level isolated internets. Of course, I would absolutely love to get more involved in other peoples projects and could absolutely use help with mine. I don't have an image but I would gladly make one. What did you have in mind? I also noticed to my great embarrassment some typos in the essay. Is there a way for me to fix them? again thank you" 4,54051,2019-05-28T03:45:19.036Z,10007,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,54013,anon3203746736,anon1593485621,"Hi - anon2373157426 an essay indeed. Thanks for such a thoughtful piece. And yes you can edit your posting if you haven't already. How do you picture a commons brought together more closely through networking, which is what I think you are calling for." 5,54803,2019-06-10T15:46:18.675Z,10007,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,54013,anon1753543892,anon1593485621,"Hello @anon1593485621, Thank you for your answer. I see you already edited your post. What is the Pirate Box Project? Could you link to it? I thought it would be nice to take a quote from your essay, like the one I picked ""Imagine an internet that is outdoors and entirely communal. Imagine an internet which emphasises public life and community, the opposite of the isolated, indoor, private interfaces via which we currently interact. You do not have to simply imagine. All around us there are important hints, not utopias, but glimpses at other possibilities."" that you feel would be a good start into it, maybe even one formulated as a question to get people curious and put it in a nice big font as an image. If you would do that yourself amazing, otherwise just send me the quote you would like :). Have a great day!" 6,54935,2019-06-12T01:35:03.673Z,10007,1,19,18,2,0,0,18.8,54803,anon2488317424,anon1753543892,"Hey Maria, here's a link for ya: https://piratebox.cc/" 7,55086,2019-06-13T15:26:21.306Z,10007,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,54935,anon1753543892,anon2488317424,Thank you :slight_smile: 8,55151,2019-06-14T13:02:02.711Z,10007,2,18,17,1,0,0,63.6,53998,anon1758400449,anon1593485621,"Hey, I TL,DR the above a anon2488317424 but I wanted to let you know about this: http://www.nestorsire.com/the-weekly-package-2016-2018/ I am friends with an artist couple https://gethanandmyles.blogspot.com/2019/04/the-writings-on-wall.html (out of Marseille) who have recently worked with the guys above. Just thought I'd make that connection. With regard to some of the text of your post I'd posit that (in part) this perception of the ""isolated pale white dude"" was because in the early days this very much was the ""internet demography"". Of course things change, but not necessarily in concert with narratives, which like to lag. That said it is obvious that challenging the narrative is a good thing (as so fricken often). In other news to @anon3197437925 the mp3 school is still in the works and slowly evolving. I met up with @anon Currently he is working mostly reactively as the situation in Bamenda is a rapidly deteriorating [shit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1yoEV_sV2g) [sandwich](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By24ardaOAI). He is mostly busy with the refugees' basic needs at this point. Still, we have approximately 40 mp3 players (etc.) and 100 sd-cards with some basic audio lectures on site. Current goal on his end is to make an adapted local dialect recording of relevant excerpts of this book: https://www.amazon.com/Where-Women-Have-No-Doctor/dp/0942364252 that we lifted of the net. On my end I am working on sourcing and sometimes ruggedizing/feminizing a bunch of mp3 players, small solar, powerbank kits, recorders, documentation means, spare parts and tools. Of course the hope is to make this as much as possible of them, by them, for them with emphasis on content adaptation, and hardware life extension. We are aiming to set up some sort of organization after the pilot runs of this are done. The phase 1 value prop being in short: Resource efficient basic education (and stress relief) for the marginalized, illiterate, and busy in environments where schools do not work or do not exist. Phase 2: Allow optimization for specific outcomes including, content spread, local content adaptation / creation, impact vs cost, self sustainability, and 2-way learning. But to be realistic, we'll need help on the organization front and currently the IDP situation is so bad I am thinking about ordering rolls of tyvek from China to have them locally made into repurposable blankets with mosquito netting and a pocket for the mp3 player glued on. That is if my contact and hero on the ground Eric doesn't get abducted and tortured again..." 9,55157,2019-06-14T14:26:03.807Z,10007,2,16,15,1,1,0,63.2,55151,anon3197437925,anon1758400449,"[quote=""anon1758400449, post:8, topic:10007""]the mp3 school is still in the works and slowly evolving. I met up with @anon Ohhh wow :blush: I had not heard anything about your work on this so far. If you need some more seedfunding for this, I'm pretty sure Edgeryders OÜ can fork out 1-2 kEUR for more hardware, shipment fees etc.. [quote=""anon1758400449, post:8, topic:10007""]Current goal on his end is to make an adapted local dialect recording of relevant excerpts of [this book](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0942364252) that we lifted of the net.[/quote] That book is actually made freely available as chapter-wise PDFs by the publisher itself (Hesperian). See [Autarky Library](/t/8791), item 483. Lots of other books in there as well, maybe you find other relevant content. That Autarky Library content collection is actually the outcome at my end after @anon" 10,55162,2019-06-14T14:37:45.373Z,10007,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,55151,anon3828707713,anon1758400449,@anon 11,55167,2019-06-14T15:54:29.449Z,10007,0,15,14,1,1,0,23.0,55157,anon1758400449,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:9, topic:10007""] See [Autarky Library](/t/8791), item 483 [/quote] Niiiice! Yeah, things are very much in the Kafal vain still. But I did indeed break it down to a much smaller pilot version that is hopefully more sticky on the ground. Once there is a persistent structure etc. it is 0 problem to drop a bunch of epubs, daisy, and pdf on the side of the sd card (we currently have mostly 128 MB). Actually with the players costing around 1-2.5 EUR that is really the cheapest way to get a sd-card reader, an interface (earphones) and a charging cable / infrastructure into use. Anything that builds on this is of course a synergy win (and realistically already happening as I posted some old hardware down there). But a lot of the target audience is not literate, or has time to sit in front of a screen. And the other bit is that written material can always be read into audio - which could be either a paid job opportunity, or done as synth. My new pocketbook for example reads anything and dumps if where I want via bluetooth audio - probably just a 80/20 solution though. With regard to open source / copyright I've taken an approach that is... let's say unbureaucratic. Where I can and feel it is right I try to reach out and inform the authors what we're doing. My expectation is that we will at some point run into problems - but I'd like to make sure they are with the right people / organizations. Because there is a scenario where you turn this risk into a opportunity. :wink: Or would you like to be a multinational trying to squeeze out money from the poorest of the poor and literally standing side by side with the likes of Boko Haram? That is a very plausible risk in the days of social media and new publishing paradigms. Then there is a far bigger arc to it as well, such as the ""Gutenberg Parenthesis"" bit, and potentially conserving dying languages, which could turn out to be invaluable beyond the aid aspect." 12,55174,2019-06-14T16:10:55.052Z,10007,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,55157,anon1758400449,anon3197437925,"On the ER OUe offer - that is awesome to hear! We're in the process of putting the pitch together in the next couple of weeks. Mostly I want to target this at gov/aid/biz overlaps and see what echo I get. Eventually this could be a framework: https://www.skillsafrica.org/apply But I am very open to think about mini-interventions with potential PR return. For example one could order that tyvek to be locally made into hammocks, bedsheets, tarps (and later repurposed). The Tyvek could have ER / MoP logo on one side, and e.g. illustrations of the IDPs experiences drawn by them on the other side. These illustrations could be photographed and made into a gigantic digital collage. A potential sponsor could e.g. supply the pens for this (e.g. Molotow from Berlin), another cover the shipment, or pay for the tyvek. Just a thought. Oh and we're dialing in on a naming / branding scheme as well: Pearls of Wisdom (PoW, yes the association of prisoner of war, and the cynicism of the idiom _can_ work for us here) for the mp3 project. If we manage to get more than that done (Eric works a lot around SDGs, womens ed, IDPs) it can be under the header of Mother of Pearl (which, like education, is a beautiful but not fundamentally scarce resource)." 13,55176,2019-06-14T16:24:24.662Z,10007,1,16,15,1,0,0,28.2,55162,anon1758400449,anon3828707713,"Hey @anon3828707713 nice to see you too! You were actually the main point in me finally digging up my password again. The point is a bit off topic (and potentially sensitive) though, so let me know if you're okay to discuss it here. It has to do with one person we both met briefly on the CMI event in Marseille. The one from SA that doesn't drive anymore. We're in talks with KAUST, and you know that we do [auanon2863106368omous vehicles](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi1H724-xLc), sooo I wondered if we were careful about this - maybe this is an opportunity to improve some things for her." 14,57195,2019-07-26T16:56:58.808Z,10007,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,55176,anon3828707713,anon1758400449,send me a PM? 1,56809,2019-07-17T12:40:11.566Z,10371,0,12,11,2,0,0,12.4,56809,anon1965424313,anon1965424313,""" The European Union has launched a formal investigation into Amazon, opening a new front against US tech giants. Announcing the decision, the European commissioner for competition, Margrethe Vestager, said she wanted to take “a very close look” at whether Amazon’s business practices broke EU anti-trust rules."" "" The latest investigation will assess the agreements between Amazon and the thousands of independent retailers that sell goods on its site. After a preliminary investigation launched last year, the commission said Amazon appeared to use “competitively sensitive information” from those independent retailers. The formal investigation, launched on Wednesday, will study anon2696444391 the use of this data affects competition, with a focus on Amazon’s “buy box”, which allows customers to add items from a specific retailer directly into their shopping carts."" From: [The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/17/amazon-faces-eu-inquiry-over-treatment-of-small-retailers) Long expected, now officially announced. Thoughts?" 2,56826,2019-07-17T15:05:04.497Z,10371,0,12,11,1,0,0,52.4,56809,anon3379761435,anon1965424313,"I was trained as an industrial economist. For my discipline of origin, antitrust legislation and its application is the weapon of choice, because it studies large corporations and large corporation have an in-built incentive to collude (""competition is for losers""). Of course, antitrust became very difficult to do in recent decades, because most companies worth regulating transcend jurisdictions. I love [the example of Goldman Sachs](https://opencorporates.com/viz/financial/index.html) in the interactive visualization by OpenCorporates. Play with it, it's sobering. As a result of this and other phenomena, hardline antitrust decisions have all but vanished in America. No company was forced to break up after [AT&T](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System)... in 1984. I have long believed that the EU finds itself in a privileged position, because it has stumbled across a way to regulate companies that are not in its jurisdiction. It is based on market access: ""if you want access to 500 million relatively affluent people, you have to play by our rules"". Some past commissioners, like Monti and Vestager, were able to regulate _American_ companies in the past. This is, IMHO, one of the strongest card that Europe possesses. There have recently been calls to come down hard on some of the tech giants, as in ""break them up"", not just fine them ([one](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/09/opinion/sunday/chris-hughes-facebook-zuckerberg.html), [two](https://www.economist.com/open-future/2019/06/06/regulating-big-tech-makes-them-stronger-so-they-need-competition-instead)). The antitrust rationale is clear: their position is no longer contendible. Textbooks, in these cases, recommend breakup or a tightly regulated monopoly, possibly nationalized. What would happen if the EU told Facebook that it has to break up or stay out of the European market? Either way, it would be competition-enhancing: if it did break up, we would have two or three companies instead of one. If it did not, we would have spectacular growth of alternative services based on their access to a market where Facebook itself cannot operate. This might seem extreme, but, I repeat, it's actually industrial organization 101, and I find it worth considering." 1,53925,2019-05-24T13:56:55.888Z,9980,2,22,21,7,0,0,154.4,53925,anon1860830182,anon1860830182,"Between 2015 - 2018 I contracted for a number of UK government departments, including Government Digital Services (GDS), Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), Ministry of Justice (MoJ) and the Home Office (UK Passports). Even though I'd studied Politics & German at University, I'd never actually worked in politics, so this was an experience of the political system, at a time when the way public facing service development was becoming ever more digital and user-centric. I've been lucky enough to work and become friends with some amazing Civil Servants and consulting businesses working around government but yet my overwhelming sense, is of Civil Service fighting the tide to ""do the right thing"" for citizens and society, rather than enabling policy that has the people at its heart. In the UK, the events of June 2016 now overshadow all policy-making and whilst systemic reform should be the first priority, current events rather indicate the opposite is true. So, whilst digital services are thoroughly researched, tested and built along agile, collaborative principles, it's not the case that policy is being developed in the same manner. I've long wondered what effective user-centric democracy would **_actually_** look like. It's a conversation I have with people, in different government departments. For example - anon2696444391 could we change the electoral system to reflect the way in which citizens already interact with internet technologies? How can left behind communities become empowered? Essentially, anon2696444391 can politics move from top-down, to bottom-up?" 2,53930,2019-05-24T14:48:45.047Z,9980,2,19,18,3,1,0,103.8,53925,anon3379761435,anon1860830182,"[quote=""anon1860830182, post:1, topic:9980""] I’ve long wondered what effective user-centric democracy would ***actually*** look like. [/quote] Hello and welcome @anon1860830182, my name is Alberto. I am an old-timer here on Edgeryders. I walked that path myself, back in the 2000s. I was fortunate enough to be put in charge of several first-generation open government projects ([blog in English](http://www.cottica.net/category/cat-opengov-en/)), so I had some opportunities to experiment. I also collected my reflections into [a book](http://www.cottica.net/wikicrazia/). Nowadays I am much less involved in that scene. There is still good work to be done, but I have become pessimistic on the chances of system-level reform from within. I guess I went to deep into complex systems science, with its luggage of emergence and resistance to external pressure. My latest, and probably last, contribution to high-level thinking about government is called [The Black Briefing](http://www.cottica.net/2018/03/01/the-black-briefing-why-well-intentioned-policies-fail-so-often-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/). It proposes that government is just another agent, subject to evolutionary pressure to survive and grow. This pressure *systematically* steers government in the direction of superimposing standards onto the full complexity of society and the economy. If done with sufficient power, this will result in overwriting society with standards, in a social equivalent of monoculture. Complexity breaks down, and consequences can be dire. In this perspective, I am anon2373157426 wary of deploying the metaphor of a commercial service for democracy, like in ""user-centric democracy"". It makes complete sense that, say, a restaurant service be user-centric, trying to make it easy for the client to order and consume food. Why, after all, saddle her with the full complexity of procuring the raw materials for her meal, preparing it, keeping the kitchen clean and so on? The information about that is contained in the meal's price. With democracy, I am not sure the metaphor holds. A voter that thinks she should be spared the intricacies of policy might be an unwary one, believing, for example, that disentangling a national legal and economic system from something as deep and broad as the European Union is a simple matter of cutting a Gordian knot. How do you see the matter? How does it map onto infrastructure and policy for the Internet?" 3,53934,2019-05-24T15:18:13.582Z,9980,1,16,15,3,0,0,68.2,53930,anon1860830182,anon3379761435,"Thanks @anon3379761435. Thanks for sharing your blog post, I'll definitely take a look. I suppose there's a couple of points I've considered to your comments. To your point of the metaphor of commercial services and the idea of ""user-centric"" government. This is a principle I've actually seen being applied, for real, within digital services. This is partly why, for so long I've been interested in anon2696444391 citizens can become more enable to participate in an iterative democratic process. I suppose the deeper question to answer becomes ""anon2696444391 much government should a citizen be exposed to?"" My view has always been that the current democratic settlement is too abstract, too representative and fails to empower either the individual, the community, or the society. Thus, the impact of relatively rare referendums and elections aren't correlated to the individual's viewpoints and actions. Indeed, to your EU point - anon2696444391 do citizens understand the wider implications of such questions, rather than outsourcing such decisions to a political class no better equipped to answer the question than the electorate that it supposedly serves. I've seen with my own eyes the impact of effective, government, user-centric design and am curious to see anon2696444391 this might escape the confines of a Civil Service, to make its way into higher level decision making by way of a network effect that might enable more thorough and deeper decision-making. The side effect, in a changing world might also be more stable government with active, rather than passive contribution from citizens. Of course, I'd be failing my own argument if I didn't acknowledge that this would require, testing, iteration and learning and that failure is definitely an option!" 4,53951,2019-05-24T20:02:49.731Z,9980,1,15,14,2,1,0,48.0,53925,anon3203746736,anon1860830182,"[quote=""anon1860830182, post:1, topic:9980""] For example - anon2696444391 could we change the electoral system to reflect the way in which citizens already interact with internet technologies? How can left behind communities become empowered? [/quote] That is a tricky one in the sense that many of what we could think of as ""left-behind communities"" are either poor, live in rural areas or are otherwise less connected. Or maybe they are just seen that way, and are more connected to the Net than is often understood because they have a mobile phone that connects. Still, I live in a rural area and whereas I have a broadband connection, about five properties down the road they do not have broadband and frankly, anon2488317424 chance of getting one other than expensive and slower sanon1537101702te connectivity. Since it is fairly mountainous, cell reception is pretty spotty. Those people all drive into town to hang at the library or coffee shop for their connection." 5,53954,2019-05-25T06:36:05.905Z,9980,0,14,13,3,0,0,17.8,53951,anon1860830182,anon3203746736,"Hi @anon3203746736. My view is that inclusion needs to be formalised. I feel that digital or not, our democracy has stopped (or maybe never did) work to include everyone. In addition to the question of geographical inclusion is race, gender, economic etc etc." 6,54012,2019-05-26T16:28:33.761Z,9980,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,53925,anon3203746736,anon1860830182,"Meanwhile, this Politico story does not paint a very encouraging picture of anon2696444391 the GDPR is working out.. https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/25/anon2696444391-silicon-valley-gamed-the-worlds-toughest-privacy-rules-1466148?cid=apn" 7,54288,2019-05-31T07:47:21.799Z,9980,2,13,12,1,2,0,92.6,53930,anon3778288340,anon3379761435,"I broadly agree with @anon1860830182 that the democratic systems we have in place are generally broken, or rather, less effective than they could be if they were to be rethought using human-centric design principles. For me this isn't necessarily internet specific - the internet and access to it etc may be required to enable better solutions but what I think the question here is is more about does our current democratic processes work well for humanity in today's/tomorrow world? [quote=""anon3379761435, post:2, topic:9980""] Nowadays I am much less involved in that scene. There is still good work to be done, but I have become pessimistic on the chances of system-level reform from within. [/quote] I too have been trying to work within and have come to the same conclusion. Frustrating as it is the machinery of large organisations is not set up to work for humanity in a human centric way, it's always fuelled by corporate and capitalist values. [quote=""anon1860830182, post:3, topic:9980""] I’ve seen with my own eyes the impact of effective, government, user-centric design and am curious to see anon2696444391 this might escape the confines of a Civil Service, to make its way into higher level decision making by way of a network effect that might enable more thorough and deeper decision-making. [/quote] @anon1860830182 I feel we know each other... To echo the point that working within isn't the right place for us to do this thinking - just over a year ago, I was asked to create a vision of what “innovation in Government” could look like. Whilst closely studying emerging government strategies I noticed there was anon2488317424 in the way of GDS type ambitions (the human centric approach) within the plans for our society. In fact the main thread throughout the likes of the UK’s Industrial and Digital strategies are based on widening the doors to large corporate support and, reading between the lines, approving their capitalist control and influence in exchange. The Government’s contribution in all this is to sponsor large programmes of infrastructure development (yet more capitalist gain) and to provide economic incentives in order to create the perfect environment for global industries to make their home in the UK. Chris, if you're interested in exploring what democracy looks like for a nation based on rethinking using a service design process that you're familiar with then I think we could set something up. I think it plays well into the topic of Internet of Humans, we could possibly run some design sprints and build up a ""discovery"" to present at a track in November. Maybe the festival will include prototyping and broadening of the discussion." 8,54301,2019-05-31T10:31:20.967Z,9980,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,54288,anon1443855569,anon3778288340,"Inspiring discussion! Briefly, it seems like the global political systems are not able to achieve the necessary climate goals. So let's make a kind of bypass-operation and connect consumers and producers via some kind of moral filter! How about this draft: Imagine an app/site that makes it super easy to favor the most climate-smart alternative. It should be possible to ask for a product or even a shopping list and get the best way to achieve it in seconds -- calculated given your geo position and transport -- wherever you are. The app workers are a global network of volunteer ""consumer politicians"" that agrees upon the basic mission and rules. It distributes consumer power via high granularity: a participant can only debate/rank/vote in maximum 10 product categories. Delegation gives tree advantages: Higher competence in the respective debates, more power in the areas of interest/expertise and less workload for each participant. A lot of consumers starts to use the app and it becomes beneficial for the #1 products. The application takes a fee from aspiring companies for assessment and voting in the categories and regions where they want to become the climate-leading alternative. Is it a bad idea? Otherwise, let's realize it! :grinning:" 9,56802,2019-07-17T10:04:35.081Z,9980,0,7,6,1,1,0,6.4,54288,anon3379761435,anon3778288340,"[quote=""anon3778288340, post:7, topic:9980""] I think it plays well into the topic of Internet of Humans, we could possibly run some design sprints and build up a “discovery” to present at a track in November. [/quote] That sounds really interesting... I would be glad to attend something like that." 1,55428,2019-06-19T13:09:07.104Z,10190,2,35,34,24,0,0,172.0,55428,anon3828707713,anon3828707713," There are two themes/conversations I would like to explore in the context of internet of humans. But I am unsure anon2696444391 to frame the topics. Any input and offers of help would be much appreciated.... 1. What a deep green movement for the Internet of Humans would look like and which questions we should be asking to start figuring this out together. For example- anon2696444391 would you/not approach the work of developing a deep green trustmark for digital tech? What would you not try/avoid doing? Who or what would you bring into that conversation?How would you mobilize people in tech to contribute or adopt using it? 2. An internet without bias? I came across this conference on bias in Neuroscience and AI https://www.ru.nl/bias2019/program-location/. The topic is important but i wouldn’t know anon2696444391 to approach it without normative thinking - anon2696444391 would you invite people to discuss this? Any ideas or additional topics you would like to explore?" 2,55429,2019-06-19T13:18:37.897Z,10190,0,34,33,6,1,0,81.8,55428,anon659222949,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:1, topic:10190""] What a deep green movement for the Internet of Humans would look like and which questions we should be asking to start figuring this out together. [/quote] Let's start by trying to define ""deep green"". Do you mean ""deep"" it as it is referred to in relation to [""deep tech""](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_tech)? [quote=""anon3828707713, post:1, topic:10190""] An internet without bias? [/quote] @anon3554387720, anon2696444391 could Memex and Storex be useful for those wanting to work together for more sustainable tech?" 3,55472,2019-06-20T08:35:51.291Z,10190,2,32,31,3,0,0,61.4,55428,anon3086952555,anon3828707713,"The work that the [Green Web Foundation](https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/) has been doing seems highly relevant, [Chris Adams](https://twitter.com/anon2616197748) is the person I'd recommend chatting to, he's been doing work with them. That covers the **energy angle of digital services**. Then there's of course the **materials angle** for those products that have a hardware component (everything IoT for example). [The Restart Project](https://therestartproject.org/) are doing amazing work around prolonging the life cycle of electronics through repair. So maybe one aspect is along the spectrum of ""anon2696444391 does this come into the world"", ""anon2696444391 is this in the world"", ""anon2696444391 does this end its life"" kinda thing." 4,55475,2019-06-20T09:22:13.904Z,10190,1,31,30,1,0,0,16.2,55472,anon3828707713,anon3086952555,Oh! Yes ofcourse hey @anon2902027682 :slight_smile: maybe you have some relections on ^^? 5,55476,2019-06-20T09:25:15.076Z,10190,1,30,29,3,0,0,26.0,55472,anon3828707713,anon3086952555,Got suggests for anon2696444391 not to approach thinking about trustmarks on general/ a starting set of questions we could depart from based on your experience with the trustable iot one you are developing? 6,55486,2019-06-20T10:11:49.894Z,10190,1,29,28,8,0,0,65.8,55476,anon3086952555,anon3828707713,"Ah right, yes. Thanks for the reminder. I sometimes take that so for granted because I'm in too deep to notice that not everybody spends their days pondering these questions :slight_smile: Some of the foundational questions to ask yourself is: - Should this mark provide a base-line, or be more aspirational? (One establishes a minimum standard, the other a ""gold"" standard, which means one applies to potentially everything while the other applies to a small subset.) - Do we build this around information provided by the vendor/manufacturer or do we verify information independently? (One is easy but could be abused, the other is more robust but more costly.) My research on this might be outdated, but to the best of my knowledge, there isn't currently a canonical ""green"" trustmark for things like electronics. It seems like Fairphone's approach of making their phones' components transparent is about the limit of what has been possible. Why? The sourcing is *incredibly* complex. Once you get to your definition of green/sustainability (Focus on materials? Sourcing processes? Repairability/recyclability? Shipping and packaging? Energy use? Something else entirely?) you'd likely need to start breaking down the product into its components, and possibly these components into their own more basic components. The way supply chains work, a product (let's take a smart home assistant as an example) might have software from a company that we would recognize, and some parts or most parts of the industrial design might come from the same company if it's a higher-end consumer brand. _Maybe_ the case and some chips and boards could be traced back, or reported on by the company (if they agree to share, because of IP rights). Once you're down to the chip level, most likely those were sourced as is in Shenzhen, and at the latest that stage is where documentation is likely to become a lot less complete (currently; that might change if there's a business case for better documentation!). So! I believe there are some data bases for finding out environmental impact both on the materials side ([Dr. Isabel Ordonez mentioned something along those lines at a recent ThingsCon Salon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUs7XwvhIv4)) as well as on the energy side of digital products (The Green Web Foundation and Chris Adams to the rescue!). Beyond that, **I think this breaks reasonably new ground to really justify some deep research: How can we mitigate the lack of transparency and still get to meaningful insights into anon2696444391 green a product is? What are best practices to make things more green? What are strategies to allow for this type of mark to evolve as things get more transparent over time?**" 7,55506,2019-06-20T15:45:09.173Z,10190,0,25,24,1,0,0,25.0,55486,anon3203746736,anon3086952555,"I agree about defining 'deep' - and given the situation we collectively find ourselves in, I think that definition should be as inclusive as @anon3086952555 suggests: materials, sources, processes, recyclability, shipping, packaging, energy use - all of the above and whatever else goes along with it. In some ways this reminds me of the late 60s and early 70s, back when we the people were discovering just anon2696444391 extensive pollution was. Fires in rivers, Love Canal, dying lakes, acid rain, PCBs, DDT...etc etc. There was a period of deep collective investigation into what we had done to ourselves. We need that now in every walk of life." 8,55675,2019-06-25T08:42:37.755Z,10190,1,26,25,2,0,0,50.2,55475,anon2902027682,anon3828707713,"Thanks for tagging us. We are probably lacking the wider context of this thread — apologies if this misses the mark ;) There are a number of initiatives towards ""repairability scores"" for electronics, some EU, some scoping at a national level (including hints from Defra here in the UK) and some private sector-driven voluntary approaches. Additionally [TCO are looking to expand their criteria to include a full lifecycle approach](https://tcocertified.com/criteria-overview/). Worth also remembering that EU-driven voluntary initiatives like Ecolabel that have had extremely limited traction. For example, the Ecolabel for laptops has existed for years, but very few (if any?) manufacturers have ever risen to the challenge. In terms of reducing environmental harms in the supply chain, we would recommend getting involved in [Good Electronics network](https://goodelectronics.org/), which has long-term experience networking grassroots activists on the ground. [Electronics Watch](http://electronicswatch.org/en) has done a great job of extending these concerns into actionable, public sector procurement. However, worth throwing in here that while there are areas where labour in the supply chain activism overlap with green supply chain activism (such as occupational hazards and pollution in production), the agenda of slowing consumption of electronics, and even promoting repair and reuse in primary markets, are seen to be somewhat challenging to labour activists. So sensitivity is required as there is still a perceived ""zero sum"" of jobs in this respect." 9,55680,2019-06-25T09:19:36.332Z,10190,0,28,27,1,0,0,40.6,55428,anon3747875924,anon3828707713,"Second the recommendation to cooperate with the [Good Electronics Network](https://goodelectronics.org/). We have been a member for years, useful exchange, focus on sharing campaign info and policy processes, less so on co-developing local formats / strategies; occupational health / right to know has been a key issue from the start, as has supply chain transparency (here a 2018 [survey of tools](https://www.spott.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/01/Proforest-Transparency-tools-in-commodity-supply-chains-an-overview.pdf)). Lacks tangible alternatives to feature / rally around given the limited commercial reach of [fairphone](https://www.fairphone.com) et al, short product cycles (went to annual in almost all areas of mobile tech a while back) plus rebound effects (see ""[backfire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_effect_(conservation))"") have made this an uphill battle. Limited links to free software networks, something I never anon2373157426 understood - the convergence of open data / hardware / software is sth Edgeryders could push for to promote a holistic concept of openness." 10,55704,2019-06-25T14:42:02.902Z,10190,2,27,26,1,0,0,95.4,55428,anon2616197748,anon3828707713,"Hey folks. > What a deep green movement for the Internet of Humans would look like and which questions we should be asking to start figuring this out together. > For example - anon2696444391 would you/not approach the work of developing a deep green trustmark for digital tech? I think I'd ask what the scope of the problem you're trying to explore is - I'll speak about IoT here, as I think web's a slightly different story, and this is already a pretty long response. In my experience, that once you pull at one aspect of this what you might refer to as _deep green_* , it's hard not to end up in a situation where you basically end up at a conclusion like Michelle Thorne's post, [_it's capitalism, stupid_][cap2]. At that point, it's harder to make specific recommendations without us needing huge sweeping political changes. \* I assume would be some kind of more systemic way of talking about sustainability, beyond plastic straws and the like [cap2]: https://medium.com/@anon320602330/its-capitalism-stupid-e20e42fe68cf #### My experiences with IoTMArk I'll try sharing my experiences when trying to get some understanding of climate change and environmental sustainability into the open IoTMark, which became the [BetterIoT work that Alex Deschamps-Sonsino has sunk a colossal amount of work into][bet1]). [bet1]: https://betteriot.wordpress.com I got involved back in 2012, when I was working at [AMEE][amee1] (an environmental data startup - Avoid Mass Extinction Engine), and I wanted to understand some of the issues around hardware. [I wrote up my experiences here about the first event ][oiot1], and [the follow up event here in 2017][oiot2]. [amee1]: https://www.amee.com/ [oiot1]: https://blog.chrisadams.me.uk/2018/03/13/writing-up-iotmark-1-of-2/ [oiot2]: https://blog.chrisadams.me.uk/2018/03/13/writing-up-the-iotmark-part-2-of-2/ If you're short on time though, the TLDR version is that we had a _really_ hard time seeing anon2696444391 building IoT products in a environmentally responsible way, could be commercially viable in the current context because we are so used to shifting many of the costs of related to a service/product outside an organisation, I mean - we didn't even have a good way to capture all the bad in a single diagram or artefact, to really help us talk about which harms we wanted to mitigate first, let alone agree a some methods that smaller companies might be able to adopt, and survive. We figured it needed to be something accessible to them to be able for us to realistically propose it in the trust mark then. #### Finding some stuff via Isabel's work - MET Matrixes,and EcoCosts Back then, I wasn't really aware of any accessible framework to talk about the different kinds of costs incurred on humans or the environment, but through reading some of Isabel Ordonez's work, I've since came across some tools like [MET (material, energy toxicity) Matrixes - see the grid in that deck](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1zZ_7KTfJM_6gKzI638yeyQY3k1PzHc2o7vQUkX1ij24/edit#slide=id.g57245d9f11_0_5), that at least let you start enumerating some of these costs for industrially designed products, and give some data to inform tradeoffs you might make, and [EcoCost][ecocost1], with some nice apps and openly licenced data you can work with. [ecocost1]: http://ecocostsvalue.com/ That said, these frameworks tend to be aimed at mass producted tools or services - where you typically couldn't change much about anon2696444391 you deliver a service to people after you've decided to ship something. Typically you'd wait to ship the _next_ edition of the thing - before you can make changes. This is different to the more webby, ""continuous delivery"" way we talk about services, which seem largely informed by anon2696444391 large public sector organisations might do so, rather than orgs which need to move around substantial quantities of stuff from factories, to retailers, to customers, to an end of life destination (_maybe a new factory. but more likely landfill). > What would you not try/avoid doing? This feels a bit depressing, but I'd try asking why we still only keep referring to Fairphone as one of the only small company success stories in electronics - after 6 or 7 years. We desparately need more examples like them, but I struggle to see many. > How would you mobilise people in tech to contribute or adopt using it? I think there are lessons to be learned from the work by [Emily Webber][em] and [Doteveryone with consequence scanning][csqscn] - they've put work into designing events that fit into the way digital products are increasingly made, and I think it's one of the more promising ideas I've seen of late. That and reminding people in tech [that no one else is coming][no1else], and if we want to feel better about ourselves, we need to be prepared to act ourselves, and that we have more agency than we might think. [The People, Power and Technology reports from Doteveryone][pplpowertech] are particularly good for this, and they point to an appetite among workers for frameworks or things they can use at work to address the dissonance of working in tech, when so many things are clearly on fire, environmentally. There's also some nice stuff coming from the [W3C themselves on the web front, with the Ethical Web Principles][eth], that's both recent, and anon2373157426 accessible. [em]: https://emilywebber.co.uk/ [csqscn]: https://doteveryone.org.uk/project/consequence-scanning/ [no1else]: https://medium.com/@anon [pplpowertech]: https://doteveryone.org.uk/project/peoplepowertech/ [eth]: https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/ethical-web-principles/ I know this is a bit of a brain dump - sorry it's not more structured, but I'm happy to chat more about web and energy on Saturday, which I think is a slightly better situation now." 11,55854,2019-06-28T12:10:47.479Z,10190,0,25,24,1,0,0,40.0,55704,anon3828707713,anon2616197748,"thank you @anon2616197748 and @anon2902027682 for this - plenty projects, people and entry points to explore. I'm digging into it - looking forward to meeting up tomorrow :slight_smile: I've been looking around at my end and came across @anon The actual map they produced: https://kumu.io/doteveryone/responsible-tech#org-network Another thing I came across is research on ""Impact Tech - the intentional use of science and technology to benefit people and the planet"" by @anon If anyone wants to dig into it, we could compare notes :slight_smile: ping @anon3822657227 maybe of interest to you too" 12,55935,2019-07-01T10:17:54.364Z,10190,0,23,22,1,0,0,39.6,55704,anon3379761435,anon2616197748,"Wow, @anon2616197748, this is really great work, thanks. I was not aware of the W3C's Ethical Web Principles, and it's a great discovery!" 13,56672,2019-07-14T14:29:26.898Z,10190,1,19,18,1,0,0,13.8,55675,anon3828707713,anon2902027682,Dunno if you have already seen this beautiful angy-guy rant about reparing broken tech products. In case you haven't: https://cheezburger.com/4550661/this-anti-apple-rant-from-a-repair-guy-reminds-us-not-all-heroes-wear-capes 14,56676,2019-07-14T16:43:10.144Z,10190,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,56672,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,Good for him. My Mac laptop has one of those batteries that’s glued to the keyboard so if you need a new battery you have to throw out the whole keyboard. 1,56363,2019-07-08T21:55:46.332Z,10316,0,21,20,12,0,0,109.2,56363,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"There is a search engine that, apparently, plants one tree every 45 searches launched. A friend who I respect a lot says he has been using it for two years, and it's anon2373157426 OK (though not as good as You-Know-What). Anyone has any experience of using it? https://www.ecosia.org/" 2,56426,2019-07-09T16:38:59.656Z,10316,0,14,13,1,0,0,22.8,56363,anon294806887,anon3379761435,"This is amazing. I've recently become a green bait so to speak - I go into any and all sustainability things.. So i installed it and while it's hard to process the 61.5 million trees they supposedly planted so far, it just looks like a good approach. Notwithstanding the carbon footprint of the Internet itself.. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-much-co2-is-the-internet/9174" 3,56445,2019-07-10T07:40:26.963Z,10316,0,12,11,1,0,0,37.4,56363,anon2945747231,anon3379761435,"this is great, @anon3379761435. I had to do some anon2488317424 research before - ""who are they"" ""anon2696444391 do they make money"" etc etc. But it took me a few minutes of searching online for me to add it as my default browser. Which reminds me, @anon3828707713 and others: we really should also quickly focus on our other online presence: why should people trust us? One thing that's got to improve is our wikipedia page: ![26|690x322](upload://6HeeDHoX4BrEw7m9ApP7XmAk43R.png)" 4,56452,2019-07-10T11:09:01.029Z,10316,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,56363,anon2719157517,anon3379761435,"I also really love the idea, it was high time for me to part with google anyway. Thanks for this." 5,56462,2019-07-10T14:54:40.869Z,10316,0,8,7,1,0,0,21.6,56363,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"61 million trees planted and we are just hearing about it now...I would have to take that as pretty good news. So much bad stuff going on that floods the news feeds and no mention of such projects, at least none that I have seen. It looks like they take ad revenue and pay tree planters. Makes sense...I didn't they went out and planted the trees themselves. I like the bits-to-atoms approach." 1,56022,2019-07-02T02:12:45.971Z,10279,0,15,14,7,0,0,53.0,56022,anon1482615268,anon1482615268," This is a public discussion in Brussels about the question: ## Platforms, precarious work and the public good. Can platforms empower workers? The event is organized by The Foundation for European Progressive Studies (FEPS) and targets policy makers and academics. @anon3828707713 participates is on the panel of the afternoon session: “platforms for the public good”. Find more details in the [invitation flyer](https://anon1577251828.eu/uploads/default/original/2X/d/d9a9c0490bdcb6d045860cd5e1509b46d90ed8b0.pdf).   (Image: Unemployed workers during the Great Depression. Public domain. For details, see the [source on Wikimedia Commmons](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:StateLibQld_1_106492_Relief_workers_at_Annerley_during_the_Great_Depression,_1938.jpg).)" 2,56116,2019-07-03T14:47:43.122Z,10279,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,56022,anon2677177003,anon1482615268,"Very excite, sorry to miss this, hope to see some of the post-event stuff and things online." 3,56122,2019-07-03T15:18:38.726Z,10279,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,56116,anon3828707713,anon2677177003,Ill try to document the discussion and then post the notes here 1,53638,2019-05-17T15:47:46.014Z,9927,0,10,9,4,0,0,52.0,53638,anon3214242932,anon3214242932,"Starting to post my summary and reflections here (this will be updated). The Stockholm workshop on 11th of May was preceded by a presentation by Alberto Cottica about collective intelligence which gathered about 40 people. We had a Q&A after the presentation which was very engaged and unfortunately we had to cut the Q&A in order to stat the workshop. During the workshop we went through the following steps: - “Interestmapping” (What We Care About) - Listening Triads - Collaboration Mosaic A - Personal statement - Collaboration Mosaic B - Resource Mapping **What was shared/learned in the workshop?** I believe there was shared a collective understanding throughout the workshop that there are a lot of us ""out there"" who not only talk but also walk about building the Internet of Humans, to become a better place. **My reflections** Reflections since the process is that I would have liked to have done more in terms of giving room for participants to present themselves as whole humans. This time we jumped straight into talk and documentation, not really setting the stage and giving space for background – because we had a lot of ground to cover. - I felt that there was an immense and deep knowledge in the room. There was also representatives from all sectors of society (academia, civil, public, business, interest groups - maybe more?) which I think is a great start for an event like this. It’s requirement for leveraging system change to involve stakeholders from all sectors. I am really happy that I got the feedback from participants that they want to continue and explore collaboration, this was a seed planted to further building of relationships and collaboration and that is good as it was the intention. - As we had anon2488317424 time left after the exercises we could not share the results in plenum. However I am sure people will be interested to check the documentation online now afterwards and continue to look forward to forum discussions and the next event. **Connecting with some questions/concepts I feel are worth exploring for Internet of Humans** Some questions: - How can we work with the idea of expanding on distributed events / festivals to connect to the power of digital and analog? Some inspiration from u.lab and their online course with local hubs connecting local changemakers: https://www.presencing.org/u-lab-s https://www.edx.org/course/ulab-leading-change-in-times-of-disruption - How can we organize for physical and online prototypes on multi-location basis? I personally see a concept (or paradigm) that I also work with as an interesting strategic approach with anon2696444391 and what the Edgeryders community intend to do with this project - leveraging systemic change. There is a course about this in August 21-23 2019 in Stockholm. https://courses.complexity.university/ I have talked a anon2488317424 bit with @anon659222949 about it but I want to share it with all of you. This course is more for the organizational and social level of the work, not the technical level. This connects to my thread on anon2696444391 to develop the Internet as a society and humanity. The thread transformed into a conceptual thread on Holochain and SSB technologies. I find it interesting that something I asked (anon2373157426 abstractly) about a social issue, looking for social approaches to find social solutions, transformed into a thread about technical approaches and technical solutions to a social challenge. That points to some interesting things to me, about discernment, thinking, conversation, the field and perhaps also our tech-anthropocentric age. I think I can see anon2696444391 a lot of issues stemming from being social issues are approached with technical solutions." 1,53945,2019-05-24T17:30:21.848Z,9982,0,15,14,6,0,0,48.0,53945,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Our call includes Mozilla Fellow Peter Bihr (http://peterbihr.com/): Peter is an expert in the Internet of Things (IoT). IoT plays a role in the next generations of the internet and networking in general, that is will be co-equal to the web in stature and influence. Who will control it and who will benefit? Peter, as founder and Managing Director of [The Waving Cat](http://thewavingcat.com/), a boutique research, strategy & foresight company explores impact and opportunities of these emerging technologies—especially Internet of Things (#iot). As a [Mozilla Fellow he did R&D into creating a ""trustmark"" for IoT](https://thewavingcat.com/iot-trustmark/) so people can understand the purpose of a given IoT device and determine its value as a good thing or not. All are invited to join. The call begins at 17:00 Brussels time (GMT+2). https://zoom.us/j/3063210325" 1,53746,2019-05-22T10:09:44.865Z,9948,0,11,10,6,0,0,32.2,53746,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"On **Thursday 30 May** Nesta, in partnership with the Solicitors Regulation Authority, will be launching the [Legal Access Challenge](http://links.splash.events/wf/click?upn=UTvcgVzGNEbHsXNbwDEE6IBIpx-2Bbwqti7ImHPf4FzUUd9w55pzLr0hC5E20Vq-2FWh_HXIval2mvDIejmA9lTvFiOfrBUHMeeMptJ9KMMgFX3AiWa6zQxYljR6c8LQHpEicFl6f6HnAvzIx2rvaj3867nFzI4YYWiShJD4FAqT3pm6ffwyXlSJMyzs0cJkLxsZvvFXXjbbiirwKBSjHyxfb0-2B3uZ0aVJGAouoeg1jQNn0H7KO05EPYxr4Wr1ptpC1oz-2FDsCbp6xkyuL8mx-2BIJ0SssiYV6KWrB4-2FsGwflIoHrHJTjfYnT3wKEeMxBgjgM2mrOGZP0xip6G4ENtQ2gAxZI15osOGncNLedS1TxWD95lwpphROvSKYnBfrwV0ILhYaVX-2FpisCYT8VVjYg9d5IGg0bNvteHTNlY114WWvW2FKI-3D). An audience of technology entrepreneurs, solicitors, regulators, policymakers and civil society groups, will meet to discuss: * How far can tech go in making legal support accessible and affordable to everybody? * Is tech going to transform anon2696444391 people experience legal services? * What barriers are holding back innovation in tech that directly helps people to resolve their legal problems? * Who should play what part in encouraging a new generation of digital legal services? Join our speakers below in a panel discussion: * **Clive Coleman** , BBC Legal correspondent (Chair) * **Julie Bishop,** Director, UK Law Centres Network * **Nicky Leijtens** , Advisor to the Board, NautaDutilh and Co-Founder, She Breaks The Law * **Tim Pullan** , CEO and Founder, Thought River * **Julia Salasky** , CEO and Founder, Crowd Justice The event will last until **19:30** with networking and drinks until **21:00.** [Register here](http://links.splash.events/wf/click?upn=w7wbcXhBsVbRoRkIFCfppbacQE3a1C4-2B49-2FJqmplYIV5wPDjECWbJFVIwXSM4t3HivSo3n1iCUw4b0Q7IKfa3TXfCerRDXholFwPT-2BEOU35dHzmssZM75rdI4MTL-2B1Roreh3TvgtukuVmhFwJQNXBnIZjVqWERnJEm8bLBvXD0H2Q2akB-2FV7uyoKKTShYLgzgESlrS7XrJh3Gt-2Bn4GCe9JGt1Ie25KU6ZqOg2y-2BtCKS6DBp0R7GTM0-2FW0HG7VPKVGKMTS5I0-2FWkLcrlYZLq-2BTCT9FQrNe5ytkcQFc85FNrRT4krK4CDFqXTVbJIxKup-2BroYGRVnRRn1LBeWUmC-2BwJayiEXDekdX4neFWWeNpeQw-3D_HXIval2mvDIejmA9lTvFiOfrBUHMeeMptJ9KMMgFX3AiWa6zQxYljR6c8LQHpEicFl6f6HnAvzIx2rvaj3867nFzI4YYWiShJD4FAqT3pm5WTGQAAv7oZXaOnbMd-2BwvtkWsZIKAd5e1Vy3dU3QExUW5EoDVyZ8EVlpzeOK-2FAzRNEKyaIAykgl428n3irRHeaBqUPIHz-2FZCraid2fzXSzw2KflywClP7E4gGWA2y48NI1Ogo-2F5Q7YNqlXX7TDcg3pNBsP1WFs3j9EUYWo1Eum1gQRw7XCN5QS5cLv0re1m1yY6o2P0HKh8RBk6z0UVRz8VZa-2BMycjjOxkK9BbQL9Lt14pthhKSZ5cZCmrMNXWetw-3D)." 1,55530,2019-06-21T06:57:48.600Z,10203,0,15,14,25,0,0,158.0,55530,anon3747875924,anon3747875924,"Thought this might be of interest to someone in the network, I think it is key that if major cultural organizations position themselves in emerging fields that civil society / social movement actors are involved in the definition of these positions... Soenke *****UNESCO vacancy for AI & Education projects - temporary assignment***** UNESCO is looking for candidate to join their ICT in Education department to work on AI in Education related projects for a period of 3-4 months with a possibility of extension based on satisfactory performance and availability of funding. We are seeking a candidate who has a background in Computer Science or Artificial Intelligence (optionally with specialization on AI in education and learning) and excellent research and writing skills. The main responsibilities will include: Supporting the research and document drafting for the organization of UNESCO AIEd-related publications, as well as providing expertise support for the implementation of UNESCO project activities relating to AI in education and learning. Candidates will need to have completed / close to completing their Masters/PhD degree in a discipline relevant to the post and demonstrable ability to conduct research and provide expertise in the field. Some experience of teaching/tutorial work in AI / Computer Science / Programming in an international are also desirable requirements for this post. We are looking for the incumbent to start to work for us as soon as possible. All interested applicants should send an email to [ v.cucuiat@anon" 1,53684,2019-05-20T13:33:27.753Z,9934,0,16,15,6,0,0,153.2,53684,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"A friend just brought this to my attention and I figured it could fit in just nicely here: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/daowo-summit-uk-the-blockchain-art-knowledge-sharing-summit-registration-61241314420 Maybe someone here wants to go, or we want to reach out to people involved to come here :)" 1,55009,2019-06-12T15:02:24.203Z,10136,0,20,19,10,0,0,84.0,55009,anon3747875924,anon3747875924,"Hi, since @anon2619552108 [mentioned](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/get-your-facts-straight-with-ai/10108) the economist and theorist of public value Mariana [Mazzucato](https://marianamazzucato.com/) (her site features many of her research publications) but does not like white pages, maybe start here - a [review](https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofbooks/2018/10/09/book-review-the-value-of-everything-making-and-taking-in-the-global-economy-by-mariana-mazzucato) of her most recent book, The Value of Everything, including [audio](http://www.lse.ac.uk/lse-player?id=4128) of her 2018 LSE Lecture ""The Value of Everything: Making and Taking in the Global Economy"", and a 2018 [policy report](https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/mazzucato_report_2018.pdf) meant to ""nurture a new belief amongst EU citizens about what real collaboration across Europe can achieve"" published by the EU. @anon3379761435 - while I think of writing posts as part of my research, I just now became aware of the [open notebook science](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-wonder-of-open-notebook-science-opencare-community-vs-opencare-team/6142) approach...thx for maintaining such a comprehensive record of past exchanges, this is incredibly generous." 2,55022,2019-06-12T21:09:01.094Z,10136,1,18,17,1,0,0,13.6,55009,anon3379761435,anon3747875924,"I read _The Value of Everything_ with great interest, and am, in fact, a big fan of Mazzucato since *The Entrepreneurial State*. She is one of a small, but important group of economists that can restore economics as a relevant discipline in the next ten years ([see](http://www.cottica.net/2017/01/03/policy-making-as-risk-management-under-complexity-five-economists-for-the-next-ten-years/)). Value theory, and the woman herself, keep resurfacing in the Internet of Humans discussion (like [here](/t/9821/48) and [here](/t/10041/2). She is also an inspiration for the #research-network:economic-sci-fi seminar, elsewhere in Edgeryders. I will now read the policy report, you already recommended it twice, so it must be good. And yes, do open notebook science, it's good for the soul and for replicability." 3,55038,2019-06-13T06:48:30.216Z,10136,1,17,16,3,0,0,53.4,55022,anon3747875924,anon3379761435,"Thx for the overview of Mazzucato et al. Amazingly useful, as I have been trying to come to terms with discussions of ""design for emergence"" some of the colleagues over at [ouishare](https://iaac.net/meet-master-in-design-for-emergent-futures-co-director-mara-balestrini/) and now the [Salus Coop](https://www.saluscoop.org/) have been involved in. Browsing your archive, I was wondering what had happened to the data coop discussions, btw, will try to find out more about Open Care though. One thing came to mind reading ""If you think that you are a steam boat and you can go up the river, you are kidding yourself."" - Werner Herzog's drama [Fitzcarraldo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitzcarraldo). They didn't just think they could go up the river. They took the 320-anon2863106368 steamboat up a mountain. A tragedy, a thought experiment gone awry so badly the local indigenous population burned down the film set. Herzog later said the central scene (pulling the ship over the mountain) was a key metaphor - he just didn't know for what..." 4,55081,2019-06-13T13:38:56.856Z,10136,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,55038,anon3828707713,anon3747875924,@anon2973705256 was very active in the UK on the datacoop front a while ago. Is now working on something to do with NHS/British healthcare reform I think? 5,55091,2019-06-13T15:41:01.990Z,10136,0,16,15,2,0,0,13.2,55009,anon1753543892,anon3747875924,@anon3747875924 thank you very much. Great to take the initiative to add information and discussion to a topic growing from another discussion. Very much appreciated. 6,55137,2019-06-14T09:42:52.000Z,10136,1,14,13,2,0,0,77.8,55081,anon2973705256,anon3828707713,"Thanks – I published [https://futurecarecapital.org.uk/policy/healthcare-data/](https://futurecarecapital.org.uk/policy/healthcare-data/) a couple of years ago in reference to data coops in healthcare. More recently, I have endeavoured to build on this work with [https://futurecarecapital.org.uk/policy/taking-next-steps-to-harness-the-value-of-health-and-care-data/](https://futurecarecapital.org.uk/policy/taking-next-steps-to-harness-the-value-of-health-and-care-data/) The ultimate aim, now, is to explore the potential of a UK Sovereign Health Fund – my recent presentation on the topic is one of the x3 here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFnq2toG4cs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFnq2toG4cs) Annemarie @anon" 7,56052,2019-07-02T09:16:51.341Z,10136,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,55137,anon3747875924,anon2973705256,"Hi Annemarie, thx much for sharing this, finally got through your publications. We will look at question of cooperative data governance with colleagues from [Salus Coop](https://www.saluscoop.org/) and others to better understand where this discusson is in practical terms, so this is extremely helpful." 1,53642,2019-05-17T22:25:00.691Z,9928,0,25,24,19,0,0,280.0,53642,anon659222949,anon659222949," *Data Terra Nemo: Great conference, and so non-commercial they only had a pico-projector* First day at the [Data Terra Nemo]( [https://dtn.is](https://dtn.is/)) conference. There are a lot of very interesting talks and almost everyone present is working on something that would fit hand in glove into the NGI space. This conference, barely advertised outside of the indie-web describes itself as such: > Data Terra Nemo is a technical conference for hackers and computer scientists focused on distributed and decentralized systems. You probably won't go to this conference unless you recognise at least some of the people and projects on the speakers list. It's the bleeding edge of the decentralised web. To quote Alberto from a different context: [quote=""anon3379761435, post:5, topic:9920""] The more I hang around the hacker community, the more I think that most of what Europe needs to build a human-centric Internet is already out there. There is a large, diverse, investment-ready portfolio of technologies, companies and NGOs, standards and principles (like ethical design itself) and, most importantly, people. If the EU were to put some of its considerable firepower behind them, we might actually get somewhere in a relatively short time! [/quote] I come away from the first day of Data Terra Nemo with much of the same feeling. The first DTN was held in 2015, and was largely inspired by the fledgeling Scuttlebutt protocol and other technologies. In just a few years since then, that technology and others have gone from being barely operational proofs of concept to functional prototypes at worst and battle-tested fully fledged technologies at best. Dominic Tarr, original developer of the Scuttlebutt protocol, opened the conference. I want to share some of his experiences here, since they are probably emblematic of anon2696444391 a lot of these radical projects get started – far away from the Siemens, Googles and Microsofts of the world. He told a story of anon2696444391 Scuttlebutt was born out of the almost adolescent punkiness that grew out of the early days of Node.js and the - at the time- crazy idea of using javascript for your entire web stack, backend to frontend. There were, as Dominic joked, no grownups in the room telling them what to do. Without getting into technical details about what Scuttlebutt is, I will let their excellent narrative documentation video speak for itself: https://vimeo.com/236358264 This video hints at something which I find to be really special about Scuttlebutt, but also to an extent Mastodon and other communities that thrive on these platforms. It is that they seem to develop a humanness, community and a certain strand of hopefulness that is very different from the evangelical naiveté of Silicon Valley. In Dominics story, he touched upon this, retelling anon2696444391 Scuttlebutt user Zach! had come across a new genre of science fiction called Solar Punk. This hopeful utopian genre could perhaps best be described as narrative of a society of high-tech hippies, a blend of high-tech and nature, world-wide-web and wood-wide-web (an apt analogy, used by the great Gina Giampaolo of [Rumors](https://rumo.rs/) in her talk!). This image of the future had integrated deeply into the community of Scuttlebutt, wedding technology to a hopeful narrative for a better future. That's no small accomplishment! I'll write a few more of these posts on what I've seen at Data Terra Nemo, and I'll try to get some people I meet involved. Projects represented here include a DAT, IPFS, Beaker browser, Web torrent and others. I will try to churn out a few more posts about these too." 2,56042,2019-07-02T08:25:57.065Z,9928,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,53642,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"Thanks for the writeup, @anon659222949. From what I'm getting, the DTN community is mostly looking into decentralized protocols. That meshes well with the solarpunk cultural orientation: as I understand it, solarpunk is about tech that works well when run out of small collectives, and does not need huge investment in infrastructure. The applications of decentralized protocols you cited are mostly in the field of social media (SSB itself and Mastodon). I would also note, in passing, that these folks are innovating around business models too, since their tech is so commons-oriented. And I would like to know more about that, too. About right?" 3,56048,2019-07-02T08:44:37.595Z,9928,0,9,8,3,1,0,31.8,56042,anon659222949,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:2, topic:9928""] The applications of decentralized protocols you cited are mostly in the field of social media (SSB itself and Mastodon). [/quote] SSB as a protocol is actually agnostic about what you use it for. There are implementations of chess games and book recommendation apps all running on the same SSB stream - you are probably keeping chess moves and and book notes from your network in your .ssb folder." 1,54243,2019-05-30T15:20:43.905Z,10039,0,15,14,6,0,0,63.0,54243,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"We proudly present the 16 projects selected to join [@anon 1. [@anon [#ledger](https://twitter.com/hashtag/ledger?src=hashtag_click) [@anon" 2,56044,2019-07-02T08:32:15.748Z,10039,0,7,6,1,0,0,36.4,54243,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"The full list is below. It includes Worldbrain.io: congratulations to @anon3554387720! https://ledgerproject.eu/index.php/2019/05/30/ledger-selects-16-human-centric-projects-working-on-decentralised-technologies-to-enter-its-venture-builder-programme/" 1,52234,2019-04-03T10:47:10.498Z,9687,0,10,9,2,0,0,12.0,52234,anon1577251828,anon1577251828,"The Internet of Humans events of different scope and sizes. To add an event here: 1. Start a new topic in this category – as usual. 2. Click ""Add Date and Time"" and choose according to your event. This way your event will be automatically published in the [events section of the NGI Forward Consultation Platform](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/events/) as well. 3. Add a picture. The first picture in your topic will be used as the event's preview picture when it is republished as described above." 1,52457,2019-04-10T15:53:48.782Z,9715,2,120,119,791,0,0,4124.0,52457,anon3828707713,anon3828707713," ## WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BUILD A HUMAN-CENTRIC INTERNET? **Meet people who are doing it. Learn anon2696444391 to do it. Build it together.** Internet of Humans is a track within our annual Edgeryders festival. It is dedicated to bringing together existing projects into a demo of a Next Generation Internet that supports values of openness, cooperation across borders, decentralisation, inclusiveness and protection of privacy. Edgeryders is a company living in symbiosis with an online community of thousands of hackers, activists, radical thinkers and doers, and others who want to make a difference. We believe that a smart community outperforms any of its members; this is the result of people working together, improving on each other’s work. We are on a journey to help one another navigate the changes that are happening in different parts of the world. * How are we building good lives against a backdrop of massive social, economic, ecological and political challenges? * How are we creating opportunities for ourselves and where can we support one another better? In work, health, family, community life? * How are we building the evolution of the Internet and our digital technologies so that they support these efforts? We are interested in what participants already are doing in different parts of the world, and what we can do together. # **Are you our next Fellow? Tell us what you would like to build, explore or learn about building a Human-Centric Internet!** **Fellows will receive bursaries of up to 10,000 EUR, a travel budget of up to 1,000 EUR, and the opportunity to learn from and connect the next generation of working solutions in building a human-centric internet.** Internet of Humans is a gathering of contributors to the Next Generation Internet, a 3 year research project that engages hundreds of original initiatives. The fellowship program offers participants an opportunity to explore, learn from and connect with people building working solutions for an Internet that supports our ability to thrive as individuals, communities and societies. ## As an Internet of Humans Fellow, you commit to : 1. Read what other participants are working on and share your own experiences/work. 2. Arranging and documenting a series of online calls to which you invite people from whom you wish to learn or collaborate. 3. Engage the people you invite to join us at activities for project matchmaking, partnership building and fundraising. 4. Articulate a burning question to move everyone’s work forward, and turn it into a proposal for a research theme and track of a distributed festival. We are looking for Fellows who are passionate, curious and driven, as well as willing to collaborate using online platforms and community building methodologies. If this is you, we want to hear from you! Questions or nominations? Create an account on anon1577251828 and post them in a comment below. ## About the program, process and selection criteria Internet of Humans is a track in a highly participatory, distributed festival sanon2696444391casing working solutions and demos produced by community members, as well as pathways for working together towards their sustainability and scaling. It will take place in November, 2019 in a number of cities and brings together the broader Edgeryders scene that involves hundreds of original initiatives. Aiming to deepen community collaboration, during May - November 2019, Edgeryders will appoint 6 “students” to support research, community building and content curation for the Internet of Humans community. We use “students” in the Latin sense, of people that will apply themselves to the subject, as fellows of a Internet of Humans Alliance, and not in any sense as an indication of career status. **What you will get if selected:** * A bursary appointment: Up to 10,000 Euro to reimburse your working time, distributed on the basis of winners’ financial needs * A travel budget: Up to 1,000 Euro, to be authorized in advance by due justification. **Process and timeline:** * **April 12 Mar - May 30.** We collect submissions in the form of published proposals for Human Internet Festival. * Review of submissions * Announcement of winners * **May 30 - June 30.** Fellows host online calls and invite * **June 30 - November 30.** T.b.d with each fellow so as to not disrupt their other activities. **Who can participate?** Anyone with a story relevant to building working solutions for an Internet that supports our ability to thrive as individuals, communities and societies. You need to be interested in learning and collaborating with others online and offline. **Selection Criteria** We will consider individuals who have demonstrated an interest in and alignment with building a Human Centric Internet in the folllowing ways (each item will receive a score from 0 the minimum, to 5 the maximum, which will be summed to define the final score used to choose the winners): * are registered on anon1577251828.eu and have introduced themselves in the Internet of Humans online community workspace: [Tell Your Story!](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-your-story) * are operating at the grassroots level or are heavily interacting with such groups * Are open in their work, use of methodology, technology, results (public and transparent communication, open processes for participation, commons licensing, open source code etc.) * their contribution is validated in positive responses by their peers in the Internet of Humans community (as seen from the Comments section) * have storytelling and content production skills for presenting the initiatives they come across to various community groups and audiences * demonstrate willingness to collaborate with others and use online environments for communication, engagement, documentation of work and social media **What happens if I am selected?** You will be working closely with the Edgeryders team to build the Internet of Humans community conversation and together with it's members, put together the program for it's track of sessions and events within the Edgeryders Festival which convenes our global community. **What happens if I am not selected?** You eligible to get a symbolic 200€ reward for your contribution if it meets the selection criteria. More information about this here: http://bit.ly/2LbQvyD **How to get started? Join the process of building the Internet of Humans sections of our festival program** 1. Interview a person relevant to your burning question. 2. Transcribe interview and have the interviewee post it [here](/c/ioh). _You will need to create an anon1577251828.eu account to do this._ 3. Comment in depth on at least one other transcribed interview. Once you are done use `#internetofhumans` and `#anon1577251828` to draw our attention to your comments, story and proposal for the program. This will encourage others to get in touch and build support for your work! **The deadline for applications is May** **30th** **2019** , but the sooner you start and complete your application, the higher your chances! For more information come to [our weekly online community gatherings](https://zoom.us/meeting/3063210325) every Wednesday in May at 16:00 GMT+2 (CST Brussels time) or sign up on the Edgeryders platform and leave a comment below. ## Partner organisations This project has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No 825652 " 5,52497,2019-04-11T16:51:05.670Z,9715,0,82,81,1,0,0,21.4,52457,anon3828707713,anon3828707713, 6,52532,2019-04-13T14:07:35.575Z,9715,1,77,76,4,1,0,130.4,52457,anon3197437925,anon3828707713,"I like the call for applications this way :) Now let's see what kind of people we can attract. Looking forward to meeting some fellow ""crazy hacker"" types among them! [quote=""anon3828707713, post:1, topic:9715""]Fellows will receive […] the opportunity to learn from and connect the next generation of working solutions in building a human-centric internet.[/quote] Maybe we can explain that to potential applicants in a bit more detail? As in, anon2696444391 we envision to mesh together the different alternative Internet technologies into a kind of technology demonstrator to sanon2696444391 what an Internet of Humans could look like. (Also, as the tech admin of Edgeryders: I'm open to integrate a few of the fellows' proposals into our platform infrastructure so that we can experiment with them right here in this community. It has to suit for an online community someanon2696444391, of course.)" 7,52542,2019-04-14T08:27:18.702Z,9715,0,74,73,1,0,0,64.8,52532,anon3828707713,anon3197437925,"I feel like that is for the fellows themselves to define based on their own assesment of what is possible within the time frame set, no?" 8,52697,2019-04-20T12:56:33.484Z,9715,1,68,67,2,0,0,73.6,52457,anon2549650028,anon3828707713,"Is one of these Bursaries open to those who live outside of Europe? I live in Canada and am very interested in applying. Are the funds allocated to travel for the event in November? At best, I could only attend that event if I won... is that what is expected?" 9,52716,2019-04-22T07:25:36.250Z,9715,1,63,62,1,0,0,67.6,52697,anon294806887,anon2549650028,"Hi @anon2549650028, welcome on board! We do not discriminate based on location, anon2696444391ever for the purpose of this project it would depend a lot where your network is based. Pretty much all of the events and the festival will be in Europe, and if you would be engaging groups in Canada it would be harder for them to attend, same for you. The travel budgets are flexible, but it seems likely that upon negotiation your entire travel budget would have to be purposed for getting you to Europe. @anon3203746736 & @anon3828707713 can tell you more about it! Have you lived anywhere else previously or have connections to Europe and current debates about the Internet?" 10,52758,2019-04-23T20:51:34.473Z,9715,0,61,60,98,0,0,547.2,52716,anon2549650028,anon294806887,"Thanks @anon294806887 for your reply! To clarify, in order to participate in the Bursary application you are saying I can live anywhere but have to have a network in Europe... I wish this were the case but in the words of Caanon3828707713n communication guru Marshall McLuhan, who advised that one, ""think global but live local"" that is not where I have put my energy. I went ahead and posted my story, regardless, to see what, if any, feedback I might receive. Plz advise me as whether is it worthwhile doing an interview in light of this information about my network as it would seem that I do not qualify to continue." 11,54187,2019-05-29T21:52:09.243Z,9715,2,39,38,1,1,0,22.8,52457,anon2852709445,anon3828707713,"Hello @anon3828707713 and @anon294806887, A couple of questions about the process: [quote=""anon3828707713, post:1, topic:9715""] We collect submissions in the form of published proposals for Human Internet Festival. [/quote] Once one has posted to the Tell Your Story category, what is the next step to create and publish a proposal for the festival? Is there somewhere where proposals are published as such, or does ""proposal"" mean the collected content that one contributes to the IoH category through story telling, interview, and comments? Thank you!" 12,55993,2019-07-01T17:25:43.942Z,9715,0,27,26,1,0,0,10.4,54187,anon2719157517,anon2852709445,@anon 13,56013,2019-07-01T19:05:30.443Z,9715,0,28,27,7,0,0,40.6,54187,anon3203746736,anon2852709445,"Hi Adam. First, apologies for not responding sooner. A dropped ball; no excuses. Yes I would say you have it right in both examples - a proposal could be something written out in the usual way, and it can mean the collected content that one contributes. And of the two, I emphasize the latter because one could gain a Fellowship that way and not do a more formal proposal (at least not right off), whereas if one wrote a formal proposal and did not participate actively here on the platform, one's chances would be lessened greatly. Indeed, the Fellowship is about participating and bringing in one's network to join in on the conversations, here and in group calls. It all culminates in the final event, but that event is built on what we talk about here. Regarding our process, we are slowly going about reviewing and making our selections (more slowly than anticipated), so the announcements are not confined to May, as it says above. And what we consider a proposal is not a narrow use of that word, as you astutely point out. We're looking for people doing work that furthers the goals of both the Internet of Humans/NGI Forward project in general and Edgeryders' part of it more specifically, who regularly communicate about it to a network of colleagues and friends that is deeply embedded in Europe. Selection for a Fellowship is then by invitation. I hope that answers your questions." 14,71128,2020-03-10T11:05:47.077Z,9715,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,52457,anon1753543892,anon3828707713, 1,53748,2019-05-22T11:41:46.524Z,9949,0,15,14,26,0,0,178.0,53748,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Herzlichen Glückwunsch, du hast das Rentenalter erreicht, und ohne einen Renten- oder Investitionsplan wirst du gezwungen sein die deinen Weg durch das Alter zu “hacken” und zu improvisieren wie du es in deiner Jugend getan hast. Aber hab keine Angst, mit ein wenig innovativem Denken und Zusammenarbeit mit deinen Leidensgenossen kannst du gewiss mit Stil durch die Altersdemenz surfen! Viele unsicher Beschäftigten schaffen es ins Rentenalter, und das könnte sehr wohl auch für dich der Fall sein. Manche Amerikaner haben sich bereits gezwungen gesehen Altenpflege “auszulagern” und schicken daher ihre Eltern nach Indien um für dort für $2000 pro Monat wie Maharajas zu leben. In Japan erzählt der Film “Menzon do Himiko” die Geschichte eines Seniorenheims für ältere Transvestiten und Homosexuelle. Im Film schaffen sie es ihr Seniorenheim durch einen teuren Tokioter Nachtklub und reiche Spender zu finanzieren. Aber bist auch du so gut aufs deine Rentenzeit vorbereitet? Glaubst du wirklich das noch Jemand deine Projektpläne, Finanzierungspläne und Bewerbungen lesen will wenn du wieder Windeln tragen musst? Es ist an der Zeit neue Optionen für Menschen abseits klassischer Beschäftigungsverhältnisse zu suchen, bevor es zu spät ist... ...Stell dir vor du seiest 96 Jahre alt und dein Roboterassistent hat aus versehen dein Gebiss mit dem “open source” Staubsauger aufgesaugt weil der “Internet der anon2071999133on2945747231” Kühlschrank und der Herd so viel gequasselt haben, dass sie den Assistenten aus dem Netz kickten. Natürlich ist nicht wirklich so ein großes Problem, weil dein Nachbar einen 3D-Drucker hat und (nachdem du eine gratis 3D-Datei von Dingsiversum heruntergeladen hast) schaffst du es dir ein neues Gebiss zu drucken. Leider passt es nicht richtig und am Ende musst du das Essen beim Suppen-Disco Event am Abend doch auf den Felgen zerdrücken und kleckerst dir dabei biologisch angebauten Meerrettich über dein nachhaltiges Milchfaserlätzchen. Weil dein Robotorassitent weiterhin nicht richtig funktioniert entscheidest du dich selbst in der Hipsterbadezimmerinstalltion zu waschen, aber du rutschst aus und brichst dir die Hüfte. Doch auch hier können deine Freunde dir helfen und beginnen sofort dir mit 3D-gedruckte Knochen ein neues Bein wachsen zu lassen. Leider verläuft die Operation nicht gut und du bekommst eine Infektion, doch auch dafür gibt es Heilung für die mit ausreichend Rechenkapazität: Du stellst deine eigene patentfreie Medizin basierend auf deiner individuellen DNS her. Hooray! You win! you have advanced to the next level of retirement: that of constantly badgering your kids to come and visit you! But not everyone will be so lucky in the future, so it is time to explore the different possibilities that can be made to exist for people outside the “system”. Hura! Du hast gewonnen! Du hast das nächste Level der Rente erreicht: Das in dem du ständig deine Kinder anbettelst dich zu besuchen! Aber nicht jeder in der Zukunft wird so viel Glück haben, daher ist es an der Zeit alternative Möglichkeiten zu erforschen für die Menschen die außerhalb des aktuellen “Systems” existieren. In den nächsten zwei Jahren bringt Edgeryders eine Community zusammen um die Themen Zukunftstechnologien, -geschäftsmodelle und -gesetze die unser Zusammenleben unterstützen zu untersuchen und entwickeln. Wir nennen es “Menschliches Internet”. Wir werden es gemeinsam schaffen. Wir nutzen Community Management ebenso wie Edgeryders Schatz an Open Source Technologien um unsere Onlinediskussionen in kollektive Intelligenz zu entwickeln. Der gesamte Prozess ist -und bleibt- offen für jeden der sich daran beteiligen möchte. Gemeinsam werden wir: 1. Erfahrungen von menschlichen Internet- und Technologielösungen sammeln 2. Diese Erfahrungen durch diskussionen validieren 3. Diese Informationen benutzen um Menschen und Projekte zusammenzubranon2945747231n um gemeinsam die Geldmittel zu beschaffen und Lobbyarbeit zu leisten die wir brauchen um die Projekte zu verwirklichen und die Lösungen die wir brauchen aufrechtzuerhalten. **Willst du dich beteiligen? Super! Der Anfang ist ganz einfach:** ![59733395_421794291701774_8736371703820582912_n|690x528](upload://1eY3uFk42FImIjhYao0lbPdMTvb.png) Such dir eines der Schwerpunktthemen in der obenstehende Grafik aus und beschreibe eine Geschichte die ein Szenario untersucht wie man mit den Bedürfnissen der nicht so fernen Zukunft umgehen könnten. Diese Geschichte könnte eine persönliche, direkte Erfahrung sein oder vollständige Fiktion und Speculation über die Zukunft oder Präsentationen von konkreten Projekten oder Lösungsansätzen. Vorallem wollen wir untersuchen wie und mit wem menschen derzeit zur entwicklung den zukünftigen menschlichen, nachhaltig und gleichberechtigten Internets beitragen. Teilnehmer deren Geschichten andere zu durchdachten Konversationen inspirieren können ein “[Menschliches Internet Stipendium](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/fellowships-with-bursaries-for-human-centric-internet-builders-deadline-may-30/9715/10)” bekommen. Wenn du so weit bist deinen Geschichte zu teilen, mach dir einen account auf [anon1577251828.eu](http://anon1577251828.eu/) und teile deine Geschichte here: https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-your-story Wie finanzieren wir dies: Dieses Projekt wird vom Europaische Union Horizon 2020 und Innovations Programm unter der Förderungsnummer 825652 gefördert." 1,54392,2019-06-02T20:41:15.790Z,10058,0,17,16,7,0,0,143.4,54392,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"Our client every person on the streets of Europe. Some people say the sky is just the sky, but I say, why deny the obvious child? – Paul Simon The homeless in the tunnel of Brussels Central Station, the migrants in Gare du Nord, the bus drivers on strike for a decent stop over for a croissant and a coffee. The hipsters taking the early Thalys to go for a meeting in Paris, the bankers on their way in the Eurostar, and that old lady trying to make sense of the machines just to get a ticket to visit an old friend in Namur. The 5’ o clock kitchen brigade of any small bar in any station in Europe. Yellow vests marching. Those throwing sanon2863106368es. Those hitting hard with their baanon2863106368s. Medics on both sides. Those who have destroyed over 60% of all traffic cameras. Those repairing them. Software developers perfecting gait recognition. Those who walk. Us, walkers. Architects of houses housing voice activated shopping machines. Architects of gardens in which computing is infused with the grass. More water. More electricity. Power. Architects of cities overlaying a visual grid, digitally twinning every lamppost, every bin. Any piece of paper in that bin, in the grid. Some people the sky is just the sky, but it is the cloud. Whose cloud? Architects of hybridity hide behind models that hide the simplicity and commonality, the plain sense. The painters, the carpenters and the firemen. The football player aching pain in his pleasure after the remote referee said no goal. The kids biking watching their feeds like hawks with glasses. The bike left to ride on its own, no passenger to move it along, so lonely, hears of cars complaining and getting depressed as they crouch remotely activated only. Just what is it exactly that they want, they were overheard whispering. What is it? I heard a person say: We want to be free (to do what we want to do) but they do not seem free to me, just more anxious and more worried. Still. The soldiers marching. The prisoners paying for their own prison stay. Those whose say Good morning!. Those who say Goodnight. You getting a morning coffee, you who face a lonely day. You trying to do good. You trying to do evil. And the few Kings who still walk Europa. The honest man seeking an honest wage. Meet our client." 1,54580,2019-06-05T11:37:30.734Z,10081,0,12,11,3,0,0,167.4,54580,anon3214242932,anon3214242932,"NGI and NLNet is co-funding development of a Free, Libre and Open RISC-V processor. I think this is profoundly important for a user friendly Internet as there has been anon2373157426 some scandals with the proprietary processors available today. Libre RISC-V M-Class - A 100% libre RISC-V + 3D GPU chip for mobile devices https://www.crowdsupply.com/libre-risc-v/m-class/updates/first-nlnet-grant-approved-to-fund-development" 1,55888,2019-06-29T13:12:47.522Z,10262,0,10,9,10,0,0,52.0,55888,anon3379761435,anon3379761435," _An English version of this post is available [here]( https://anon1577251828.eu/t/of-sea-watch-3-and-reconciliation-in-the-internet-age/10261)_
**Leggo con preoccupazione danon4205961763 vicenda danon4205961763 nave Sea-Watch 3.** Al momento in cui scrivo, è tutt’altro che risolta ([qui il Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/26/ngo-boat-carrying-migrants-defies-matteo-salvini-veto-lampedusa-italy)). Comunque vada a finire, temo che le sue conseguenze riguarderanno non solo i protagonisti danon4205961763 storia (i 42 migranti raccolti dal Mediterraneo, il capitano danon4205961763 nave, le autorità italiane direttamente coinvolte e i loro leaders politici), ma tutti gli italiani. Queste conseguenze saranno fortemente negative. Potrebbero arrivare fino alla disintegrazione del senso di unità nazionale. **La ragione è questa.** Le italiane e gli italiani sono esseri umani, e come a tutti gli esseri umani gli capita di surriscaldarsi durante una discussione. Di lasciarsi scappare una parola di troppo, e attraversare il confine tra il confronto e la lite. È umano, e normale. Il lunedì, i bar di tutta la penisola sono teatro di discussioni molto accese sulle partite di calcio del giorno prima. È normalissimo sentire persone accusarsi a vicenda di “avere rubato il rigore”, “avere corrotto l’arbitro”, o roba simile. Naturalmente, le persone in questione non solo non erano in campo durante le partite in discussione, ma non erano neppure nel raggio di cento chilometri dallo stadio. Gli accusatori lo sanno bene, ma associano ugualmente il tifoso danon4205961763 squadra avversaria alle presunte scorrettezze commesse dai suoi dirigenti e dai suoi giocatori. **Il “voi” contro il “noi”, [secondo i biologi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection), sarebbe addirittura un tratto innato, parte dell’evoluzione di *homo sapiens* .** Nanon4205961763 discussione su Sea-Watch 3, avviene qualcosa di simile. Molti limiti di civiltà e di correttezza sono stati passati. Spero che la mia percezione sia sbagliata, ma vedo il paese dividersi in due tifoserie. Il campo di questa partita è quasi vuoto; ma i bar sono pieni di persone che insultano non solo i giocatori, ma gli uni gli altri. Le parole che leggo sono pesantissime. “Uccideteli”, “affondateli”, “disumani” e così via. Purtroppo, prevedo che l’eco di queste parole rimarrà con noi a lungo. **E questo ha a che fare con Internet.** Da un lato, Internet fornisce un archivio delle cose che condividiamo: la gioia e la rabbia, le opinioni misurate e argomentate e gli insulti e la frustrazione. E non dimentica niente. Se oggi usi la rete per chiedere l’affondamento di una nave piena di povericristi, o dare del nazista al ministro tale o all’onorevole talaltro, ti lasci dietro una traccia digitale che non sparirà facilmente. Hai voglia a pentirti: quel post su Facebook, o tweet, ti rimarrà appeso al collo come l’albatro morto al vecchio anon2794261635io di Coleridge. Dall’altro, i social media tendono a spanon2945747231rci in “bolle di consenso” dove la maggior parte delle persone sono vicine alle nostre posizioni. [Secondo Zeynep Tufekci](https://www.ted.com/talks/zeynep_tufekci_we_re_building_a_dystopia_just_to_make_people_click_on_ads), queste bolle tendono a diventare sempre più estreme con il tempo e il consumo di social media. **Insieme, questi due effetti creano una situazione in cui le nostre prese di posizione più estreme diventano una gabbia da cui non possiamo più uscire.** Da una parte, esse sono incancanon4205961763bili, o quasi, dalla memoria elettronica danon4205961763 rete: se cambi idea, devi sapere che tra un anno, o dieci, qualcuno potrà *sempre* rinfacciarti quell’insulto di cui ti sei pentito, quanon4205961763 posizione che oggi consideri sbagliata. Dall’altra, averla espressa ti rende parte di una bolla che ti *premia* per quanon4205961763 posizione; ti ammira, ti rispetta come una persona che non ha paura di dire quello che pensa. In questa situazione, è ancora più difficile rimettersi in discussione. Conclusione. **Ai tempi dei social media, quando in una comunità si forma una linea di frattura, essa tende ad allargarsi, a cristallizzarsi, a diventare irreversibile** . Diventa molto difficile perdonarsi a vicenda e riconciliarsi. È quello che è successo nel Regno Unito: nel 2015, le categorie di “Leaver” e Remainer” non esistevano. Nel 2016 erano un’abbreviazione che voleva dire “uno che vota per/contro l’uscita dall’UE”. Nel 2019 sono *identità:* se andate su un sito di incontri per cuori solitari, lo troverete pieno di profili che dichiarano “non potrei mai uscire con un Leaver/Remainer”. Queste identità sono *completamente inventate* , ma l’effetto combinato di memoria incancanon4205961763bile e bolle di consenso le rende efficaci, e anzi le approfondisce. Temo che, con la Sea-Watch 3, noi italiani abbiano trovato la nostra linea di frattura, la nostra Brexit. A breve termine, come mostra l’esempio britannico, una divisione del genere sprofonda un paese in una continua guerra che risulta paralizzante. Dopo il referendum, infatti, il governo britannico non ha fatto sostanzialmente niente, nemmeno preparare la Brexit. A lungo? Nessuno lo sa. Temo che una comunità nazionale così divisa non sia sostenibile. E quindi? Io non conto niente, ne sono consapevole. **Ma se le mie parole avessero un peso, le userei per chiedere ai miei connazionali di essere compassionevoli non (solo) verso i migranti danon4205961763 Sea-Watch 3, ma anche gli uni verso gli altri** . Una persona può, in un momento di rabbia, dire una cosa orribile senza *essere* una persona orribile. Il “nemico” che ci sbeffeggia su Twitter è una persona molto simile a noi, con una famiglia, l’assicurazione dell’auto da pagare, forse un cane. E un paio di strati dietro al suo linguaggio offensivo ci sono argomenti che valgono la pena di essere presi in considerazione. Nessuno ha il monopolio dell’italianità. Ma a me piace ricordare questo: dopo la caduta del fascismo e la fine danon4205961763 seconda guerra mondiale, venne nominato un governo di unità nazionale. Ministro danon4205961763 giustizia era Palmiro Togliatti, il segretario del Partito Comunista Italiano. L’atto più significativo di Togliatti fu un decreto di amnistia, emanato in tempi molto rapidi. L’amnistia copriva “i reati comuni e politici, compresi quelli di collaborazionismo con il nemico e reati annessi ivi compreso il concorso in omicidio” ([fonte](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnistia_Togliatti)). Le implicazioni di questa scelta erano enormi: chi era stato complice nel trascinare il paese in una guerra perduta, poi di collaborare con il nemico, veniva messo sullo stesso piano di chi non aveva commesso alcun reato, e non si era piegato all’occupazione. Equo? No. E infatti Togliatti dovette pagare un prezzo alto in termini di consenso, anche all’interno al suo stesso partito. Ma il governo di unità nazionale, e lo stesso Togliatti, pensavano che la riconciliazione, il perdono reciproco, fosse l’unico modo di procedere verso una nazione ragionevolmente coesa e stabile. Ci si può dividere, ma per andare avanti insieme poi bisogna riconciliarsi. **L’Italia è una repubblica basata sulla riconciliazione, e non credo che abbia un futuro se non riusciremo a invertire questa tendenza all’arroccamento sulle proprie posizioni e all’insulto pubblico di quelle degli altri.** Speriamo di rendercene conto, prima che sia troppo tardi. *Image: Terrour with fright” from le Brun. Credit: [Wellcome Collection](https://wellcomecollection.org/works/cra3apsc). [CC BY](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)*" 1,55569,2019-06-21T16:49:15.468Z,10213,0,17,16,17,0,0,178.4,55569,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Dear community members and newcomers, *NGI Forward is as it should be a fastmoving and sprawling discussion space and sometimes it can be hard to get or keep an overview.* ### Therefore here a quick summary of some of the discussions and events of the last week with some links: We are happy that two true makers joined us and introduced themselves and their projects this week: @anon3554387720 : the founder of Worldbrain introduces himself and the project as well as Memex and Storex with great examples and passion. In the following discussion, one can see the upsides of direct contact between the developers and users as practical questions are tackled and we are looking forward to a more in-depth discussion of the underlying ideas and the effects and potential of the UX. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/introducing-oliver-worldbrain-io-memex-and-storex-democratising-knowledge/10157 @anon1608948641 : leads from his personal story and disappointment with social media to his concrete project to build a better form of social media sharing ideas and prototypes to be discussed and developed further. https://anon1577251828.eu/t/social-media-is-broken-lets-do-better/10017/24 Both of them also joined the community call on the 18th of June on the topic of ad-based economy and news that we organised in reaction to a very active discussion thread on the topic: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-is-to-be-done-about-the-ad-based-internet-economy/9821 Another very important topic this week was ""Greenness"" as we want to increasingly look into and emphasise environmental topics and sustainability here at anon1577251828 and apply such thoughts also to the technological solutions we discuss. We also discussed anon2696444391 to discuss it: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-internet-of-biases-and-other-terrible-ways-to-open-a-conversation/10190 and anon2696444391 to set up a workshop on the topic: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/deep-green-tech-workshop/10191 The topic on anon2696444391 economical systems connect to the reality of anon2696444391 the internet and news media develop was also important this week and relevant references can be found in this post: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-value-of-everything/10136 which was nicely added by @anon3747875924, who looks into collective intelligence design and introduced himself here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anticipate-collective-intelligence-design/10106 We are looking forward to more discussion on the topics of this week as well as those to come and are excited about all the great new members that joined us this week to drive them. If there was another discussion or post especially relevant for you this week, please share it here with a link." 2,55576,2019-06-22T16:25:34.815Z,10213,1,10,9,1,0,0,27.0,55569,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,"Thanks for the summary, it's great!" 3,55641,2019-06-24T19:09:42.708Z,10213,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,55576,anon3554387720,anon3379761435,+1 on that :slight_smile: 1,55310,2019-06-17T14:34:12.962Z,10175,0,16,15,184,0,0,983.2,55310,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"The francophone media are all the rage with the story of Monsieur Cuisine Connect, a kitchen robot sold by low-cost supermarket chain Lidl. MCC contains a tablet-like device as a touch-screen control interface; it runs Android, and it turned out to be anon2373157426 simple [to hack](https://github.com/EliasKotlyar/Monsieur-Cuisine-Connect-Hack). As hackers took the kitchen robot apart in search of new cools hacks, they discovered a microphone, of which no mention was made in the marketing literature, nor in the product documentation. The microphone [was not simply forgotten in the tablet around which the MCC is built](https://youtu.be/wHggrMH5Fkk?t=213). It is mounted outside of the table, secured to the chassis for a clearer, unmuffled sound. The chassis itself has a small hole in correspondence of the microphone, for even better results. In engineering terms, this is a smoking gun: the manufacturer wanted Monsieur Cuisine Connect to be able to listen in. Even worse, MCC runs Android 6, which has important unfixed vulnerabilities. At the time of hitting the market (2019), those vulnerabilities were already well known (the final Android 6 security patch was released in 2017). > C'est ne pas de la paranoia, [...] c'est just qu'il faut toujours être préparés au pire [...] avoir conscience d'avoir commercialisé ces produits sans faire attention à tout ce qu'il y a autour. (The video is in French) https://youtu.be/wHggrMH5Fkk" 2,55396,2019-06-18T23:03:57.768Z,10175,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,55310,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"I remember the time when such stuff was the realm of conspiracy theories. Not anymore: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8qbq5x/the-cia-spied-on-people-through-their-smart-tvs-leaked-documents-reveal" 3,55510,2019-06-20T16:03:22.022Z,10175,0,9,8,2,0,0,26.8,55310,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,There should be some sort of award given for 'most cynical new product.' 1,55416,2019-06-19T09:48:46.996Z,10189,0,11,10,4,0,0,22.2,55416,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"""Join us in imagining infrastructures of regeneration, infrastructures of repair, and infrastructures of resistance"" https://ournetworks.ca/ thought of you @anon2682865457" 2,55481,2019-06-20T09:52:45.889Z,10189,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,55416,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,I love the animation on their page! 3,55507,2019-06-20T15:49:53.802Z,10189,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,55416,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,Infrastructures of repair...I'm into repair. I made my living as an auto mechanic for years and I still have that ethos of trying to repair before replacing. When i fixed cars and trucks in the 70s I was in the transitional time between when much of a vehicle's machinery could be repaired to when it became 'remove and replace.' 1,53287,2019-05-09T15:46:32.640Z,9877,0,17,16,18,0,0,93.4,53287,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Facebook, Google and Amazon come to mind first as the behemoth companies that have arrived at winner-take-all status and now function more or less as monopolies. Microsoft used to be that way, and they do still rule office software, but they are not as dominant as they used to be. Apple would gladly join that club, but Samsung keeps getting in the way. But it seems to me that the goal of any modern internet tech business is either joining this club or getting acquired by one of them. One argument in favor of this says that since everything is as cheap as possible or even ""free"", we consumers all benefit. Is this a good thing? What are the larger consequences of this reality? And is there a different way to structure the economics of the Internet?" 2,53289,2019-05-09T15:57:14.446Z,9877,0,18,17,1,0,0,8.6,53287,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"To extend the argument in favor of winner-take-all, these companies are not monopolies and should not be regulated as such because of all these consumer benefits. And those benefits are certainly there. I once heard Jeff Bezos say, ""we're gonna obsess about our customers and make our competitors obsess about us."" And they have stayed true to that, even while putting the hammer on any business that stands in their way. And they provide service to other businesses: run your servers, sell or ship your goods for you, and anything else you might be willing to outsource. At the same time there is no doubt that they are becoming like a company store for the entire body politic. One of Facebook 's co-founders just wrote this [editorial in the New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/09/opinion/sunday/chris-hughes-facebook-zuckerberg.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share) calling for FB to be broken up because it functions as a monopoly even while being 'free' to the general public. (We do pay with our data of course.) But similar to the question of whether or not they are a platform or a publisher, they are a new kind of monopoly that may or may not need to be modified by the old remedies." 3,53290,2019-05-09T16:04:19.732Z,9877,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,53287,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,Another train of thought is anon2696444391 much this trend maps to capitalism itself as we are in a period of rapidly increasing global wealth inequality that already matches the 1920s. The whole game seems to be trending in a winner-take-all direction. 4,53330,2019-05-11T15:24:57.308Z,9877,0,11,10,1,0,0,7.2,53287,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"This [well-written article in Vox](https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/5/3/18520703/big-tech-break-up-explained?utm_source=Benedict%27s+newsletter&utm_campaign=6950949865-Benedict%27s+Newsletter_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4999ca107f-6950949865-70493557) lays out the problems of regulating the tech industry. It is talking about American tech companies and American antitrust law, but the conundrum is the same for any regulator. Since amazon, Google and Facebook are popular and offer either no-pay services or lower, rather than higher, prices, current antitrust law doesn't really cover them. What goes on behind the scenes with the data you provide to Google or Facebook (which is not considered to be a form of consumer payment), or the huge loss-leaders Amazon carries out at times which drives out competitors, has to be dealt with if any ""next generation internet"" is even possible, seems to me." 5,55108,2019-06-13T19:18:01.510Z,9877,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,53287,anon2489867874,anon3203746736,"I'd have to put on my futurist hat to start thinking of the solutions (hi John, craig here!) - but what is to stop a future company from developing AI that, for example, can truly separate stuff on the internet based on your desires? What do I mean by desires? Well, the ""Reality TV"" aspect of the Internet DOES appeal to many, so they may set this new app (in a mobile OS or a Browser) to reflect that. Even then, it would weed out (rank lower) sites that didn't prove themselves worthy. In other words, things that didn't fit the mold would be as hard to find as they were in the early days of the internet instead of taking up all the headspace. Then we have a ""normal straight family"" who may want their AI settings to be - for lack of a easier way to explain - more of the Chinese model (sans the rewriting of history, etc.). They want the good stuff of the internet without hearing the worthless opinions of every troll, the millions of fake ""drop ship"" web sites that sell Amazon products and so much else. They don't care about ""Freedom of Speech"" - they want a tool to enhance knowledge and life. In some ways the mess is sorting itself out. All the screamers are starting to make less in Ad money...which makes them go away if their enterprise is based on mostly the $$$/ As the ""Volunteer Economy"" both online and off proves, people like to help other people....sometimes for free, sometimes for just expenses and sometimes for many even a small stipend or salary. The problem with larger internet models is that once the 10's of million of initial VC money is taken, the die is cast. No doubt we are at a low point in the evolution of this thing....the question becomes whether we will say the same in 5 or 10 years. Maybe, as we speak, some young guns are writing these AI apps which will filter out noise." 6,55254,2019-06-17T03:06:47.567Z,9877,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,55108,anon3203746736,anon2489867874,"Sometimes a strong winner in an Internet category gets beaten by a better product, or one more in tune with what the consumers really want, such as what happened with MySpace, Friendster and Facebook. MySpace was really dominating there for awhile in 2004-6. Murdoch paid something above $400M for it, and it withered down soon after, not because they did anything wrong, but more people wanted the FB model. WHat's different now is Metcalf's Law and the sheer size of Facebook. They have enough money to buy any competitor before they can get off the ground." 7,55309,2019-06-17T14:27:38.000Z,9877,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,55254,anon930409743,anon3203746736,"I like the proposal from Cory Doctorow and others that, rather than the traditional antitrust model, the big social media and email platforms be required to open up their protocols and that we eliminate the intellectual property restrictions against creating interoperable instances that can piggyback on their platforms and import data from them without their permission." 8,55317,2019-06-17T19:37:27.066Z,9877,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,55309,anon3203746736,anon930409743,"I agree. Antitrust in the US has had its definition narrowed over time so that it is now seen that if consumers don't have price hikes then a monopoly/trust is a benign thing. That does not cover today's reality and should be updated. It should be settled law that you own your own data and if a company gathers that data, they have to be able to deliver it to you in full, and in a format you can use. And if you say they can no longer have it or use it, then they have to let it go. We shall see if lawmakers have the fortitude to withstand the massive lobbying that works against this and any similar notion." 1,54755,2019-06-09T08:22:43.298Z,10108,0,28,27,57,0,0,305.6,54755,anon2719157517,anon2719157517,"I decided to share a piece I edited and co-authored lately for the European Science and Media Hub (link once it's out) - it's anon2373157426 an entry level, I'm well aware of it :) But maybe some of the things we point out can be an interesting starting point for your debate. I also plan to write a short summary of what we've discussed about AI in Journalism in the European Parliament last week. The other authors of this piece are Andrius Balciunas, Andrea Kocsis, Anna Udre and Borko Brunovic. -------------- One of the fields, where AI technologies can be used in newsrooms, is tackling misinformation. However, fact-checking tools still require human supervision and they seem to carry the risk of biases, mistakes and the possibility of human misuse. In order to overcome misinformation, both journalists and teachers have a responsibility to educate the public on anon2696444391 to spot false narratives and stop them from spreading. ![|624x388](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/ijfB4IsX3iO2qdd4Rlq2pzAvmSSICkCU48WWvsyRgalVmjYL288iyE3-4lNkfocCpbt0E85-cB1hQoW21ROddKOJqzlXlyxHzwYmWBpdvEaDUci5Ih3GtvVAN-ROyeRjYQxUtiyH) Source: https://thebestschools.org/magazine/robot-love-understanding-complicated-relationship-technology/ Are we alone in the fight against misinformation and fake news? Are there tools out there that can help journalists or should we be rather scared of artificial intelligence in the media? Although it seems robots will not conquer our newsrooms in the near future and we will not have an algorithmic army fighting online trolls, it does not mean AI tools are risk-free options. We checked the pros and cons of automated fact checkers. Do they work? Even if they do, can be entirely sure that journalism has the largest responsibility in the war on misinformation? Artificial Intelligence (AI) - flies airplanes, drives cars, writes news and forecasts the weather. Decides on life and death. Most inventions throughout history provoked controversy - but not many of them had been as widely debated as artificial intelligence. There is still no clear definition of what AI is and what does it do, but its existence opens up many questions. Legal, technical and above all moral and ethical. What are its limits? Achievements? And - perhaps most importantly - who, and anon2696444391, controls it? Manipulations that AI allow have potentially devastating effects on society: fake news, fake reviews, fake videos evoking fake emotions. At the same time, it is a tool to create better societies, a brighter future, and meaningful jobs. And in the context of journalism, AI can be an ally of both the reader and the author - we invite you to learn about the available tools and their applications. AI against misinformation Journalists do not have to fight the battle against fake news alone. There are AI-based tools which can be used in the newsrooms against misinformation. According to Mattia Peretti, the Project Manager at “Journalism AI” at LSA, the most frequently used are fact-checkers. Fact checking tools use rich databases of verified, high-quality and wide-ranging information. The algorithm is also fed with examples of debunked stories and results of the work of human fact-checkers. According to Lucas Graves from [Reuters Institute Oxford](https://agency.reuters.com/content/dam/openweb/documents/pdf/news-agency/report/reuters-institute-graves-factsheet-180228.pdf) the development focuses on three aims: spotting false or questionable claims circulating in the media; verifying or facilitating verification of claims or stories and delivering corrections instantaneously, across different media, to audiences exposed to misinformation. ![|572x333](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/Wiv5g-UfiymWCtQwdjX5ql6Ti3S9eqnqYIyO9nPw1vkg9ip8UOZ02O1CQDEh6GExJprVO7NMMRfAdMEYpfNwFjZZlgtsTWemwlH5XJohiHfsPawk0VemmnDF325vTg2NaLS8ODhT) Lucas Graves: Understanding the Promise and Limits of Automated Fact-Checking. Reuters Institute Oxford. Factsheet 2018. At the moment, these fact checkers are half-automated. The databases used in these algorithms have displayed multiple examples of stereotypes and biases, and they are not capable of the judgment and sensitivity to the context, necessary to reliably establish the veracity of the material. " I'm a bit skeptical about AI and fact-checking. Sometimes misinformation is not fake, it's a anon2863106368e, something very subtle” admitted Guido Romeo, Data journalist at FACTA, “ I have never seen a machine to grasp it" Similar results came out of Brooke Borel’s (the author of The Chicago Guide to Fact-Checking) [research](https://www.popsci.com/can-artificial-intelligence-solve-internets-fake-news-problem), during which she used ClaimBuster against her own manual work. Although ClaimBuster found almost the same amount of fake information and did it faster than her, it missed some important information which was only partially true and could be defined as misinformation. She cited the example of a sentence about climate change, a topic both political and scientific, which contained a subtle judgment: minimizing the impact of human activity on global warming. The ClaimBuster was not able to point out the doubtful anon2863106368e of the article. However, AI has also promising results in newsroom practice. “ The New York Times uses “Perspective” a Google tool, one of the best for comment moderation” - mentioned Stefan Hall, World Economic Forum. He also highlighted the benefits of the MTI-based Portico to reduce toxicity in an online environment, as well as Twitter’s own strategy to try and address disinformation, particularly bots and trolls. “ I think the Google’s “Perspective” is probably the most likely to be available in other countries.” - pointed out Hall. - “They have a human editor involved so there is always someone who makes the ultimate decision. However, many companies are looking into that.” Wilfried Runde stressed the importance of the journalist’s judgment in the process - “ the result will always be left with the journalist in the newsroom.” This applies to Truly Media, a tool developed three years ago by Deutsche Welle and the Athens Technology Center in Greece. The technology is based on open-source engines, such as [TinEye](https://www.tineye.com/), which reverse-searches images. It is used for example by Amnesty International in their investigations, or in the European Parliament to verify scientific material. Its main purpose is to verify the authenticity of user-created content - but the final decision lies with the person who interprets these findings. Mattia Peretti also mentioned a UK-based fact-checking charity Full Fact during European Youth Science and Media Day. It monitors major newspapers and broadcast news, as well as parliamentary sources, using the available subtitles and also text to speech conversion. Lucas Graves from the Reuters Institute Oxford described two other available automated fact-checking projects, the [Duke Reporters Lab](https://reporterslab.org/) and [Chequeado](https://chequeado.com/). The Duke Reporters Lab is a hub at Duke University. They have developed [Tech & Check Alerts](https://reporterslab.org/tech-and-check/), which helps journalists spot questionable claims in the local news - and sends a list of them in a daily newsletter. Their other new project, FactStream, offers live fact-checking of major political events via a mobile app. Its first public test came during the 2018 State of the Union address, when during the speech reportedly more than 3,000 people used the app. Finally, Chequeado is a fact-checking nonprofit based in Buenos Aires. In its current version, the program monitors presidential speeches and about 30 media outlets across Argentina to find claims to check. Another planned feature matches statements against previous fact-checks, and against official statistics, in order to automatically generate a draft for a human fact-checker to review. The platform will be shared with other fact-checking organizations in South America, and with news organizations interested in political fact-checking, but at the moment it is available only in Spanish. There are many other AI-based fact-checkers available, such as [ClaimBuster](https://idir.uta.edu/claimbuster/), the [veracity.ai](http://veracity.ai/) or the [Factmata](https://factmata.com/). The technology is constantly improving, but will it ever become a reliable solution against the misinformation and the fake news? Solutions? Education So, can we overcome misinformation, or is it here to stay permanently? People working with hybrid threats and information warfare stress the role of education and raising awareness in overcoming this threat. After Russia [illegally annexed Crimea](https://carnegieeurope.eu/2017/03/15/revisiting-2014-annexation-of-crimea-pub-68423) and started a war with Ukraine in 2014, Ukrainian media professionals spotted anon2696444391 the society was manipulated with misinformation for many years. Their first response was to start debunking the myths, but the long-term strategy required educating young people. Media professionals [started a project where school children could learn](https://www.stopfake.org/en/stopfake-helps-schools-to-teach-media-literacy/) to discern non-objective information. Though, the responsibility lies not only on journalists. “ People always assume that science journalists are experts in fake news and know anon2696444391 to change them. But that's not true,” said Mićo Tatalović, “Nature” news editor and Chair of the Board of the Association of British Science Writers. “I don't believe in the idea of media manipulating people. We are here to report, not to change peoples mind,” he responded about the ways science journalism can fight fake news. “ There is already too much manipulation outside. It should be the role of education and teachers. They are the expertise you need, not journalists.” Therefore, the knowledge must be passed to teachers as well. This applies to the use of AI in fighting misinformation. As Wilfried Runde of Deutsche Welle said, “ publishers must be open about the AI tools that they are using in their work”. If a media outlet is using AI for editing, data analysis, preparing material, etc., they must be transparent about their tools and encourage the public to participate in giving feedback. This would benefit both the media and the society - by sanon2696444391ing anon2696444391 technology helps us create reliable content, spot the misinformation, and reestablish trust, crucial to democratic societies. But also explaining why AI cannot replace human judgment or ethics, or the need for personal contact in acquiring sources and first-hand information. Therefore, it seems that humans are not entirely alone in the fake news war. Technology has already developed useful tools for facilitating the journalists’ work, such as fact-checkers, and the industry does not stop progressing. However, these options still require human supervision and they seem to carry the risk of biases, mistakes and the possibility of human misuse. So journalists are here to stay. But they must stay alter and sanon2696444391 anon2696444391 our values of democracy, transparency, and freedom of speech are being preserved in this super dynamic, technologically enhanced environment." 2,54759,2019-06-09T09:42:05.392Z,10108,1,20,19,1,0,0,194.0,54755,anon2619552108,anon2719157517,"Not sure... I have somewhat of a tooth with journalists that repel the responsibilities of their role... It has been investigative journalism ( https://en.unesco.org/investigative-journalism ) that has brought everyone to think of the activity as a 4th estate, and which justified a number of protections for the category, including the excess of creating protected professions out of it (e.g. in Italy) as if one needed to be professionalized to exercise the role... ...now the category seems very keen to rush for clickbait strategies, first reporting rather than deep reporting, and overall journalism as a form of marketing, which is a paid ally of this or that power/mission... No doubt education is part of the solution, and I have never heard anyone claiming otherwise... but journalists should live up to their roles, or be ready for expiration :angel: Scientific bloggers (who are not living in the walled garden of professions) are already competing on quality of analysis, and often doing a much better job than ""journalists""... a few of them transition with success to more traditional editorial endeavours, like book publishing... so it is achievable with a bit of effort :slight_smile: and people refusing to analyse their own profession are a bit like those men replying the accounts of feminists are exaggerated, because they have never directly witnessed this or that..." 3,54761,2019-06-09T11:48:28.011Z,10108,1,20,19,1,0,0,29.0,54759,anon2719157517,anon2619552108,"I agree with most of what you point out - and the way this particular profession and business evolve creates a whole set of new crazy problems. I think what's of key benefit and importance here is the possibility to use some of the new tools to help support one's arguments - especially as some of the misinformation gets incredibly sophisticated, and things have to be dealt with at incredible speed. One of my favorite artistic groups - Forensic Architecture - uses a somewhat similar combination of multidisciplinary expertise and sophisticated tools to produce counterarguments against those in Power - may it be EU, or Israel, or the palm oil industry. I don't think these tools justify laziness or solve the problem of good journalism in times when the industry works based on broken logic. But I anyway think we must be open to technologies that help do this job well." 4,54764,2019-06-09T13:38:23.178Z,10108,3,20,19,1,0,0,69.0,54761,anon2619552108,anon2719157517,"If I understand you right, you are proposing that new tools to produce narratives, just like new artistic forms, can contribute to awaken journalism, and public alike, from the spell they fallen prey to... That certainly I would agree with... they can be a force to be reckoned with... :+1: Even art, though, has often become a tool of propaganda, and technology is just an accelerator to make certain things quicker and allow us to make more, sometimes qualitatively more allowing us to invent new forms... but still technology is just that, an accelerator trapped in the social context it is born from and used into... Tricking automatic fact checking is extremely easy, just like counterfactual attacks with generative approaches can trick the best performing classifiers... Curious humans establish causality chains, which ML don't touch upon, by design (here I would reference the job of Judea Pearl, and Spyros Makridakis, for example)... and humans can design social discourses for fallibility, something which relying on fast machine-driven ""fact checking"" seems to de-incentivize... So I guess I am completely onboard with you about the provocation factor, and the value of working on that family of tools and approaches :slight_smile: ... but I am somewhat cold (and I might have misunderstood here, and you are cold about it too, I apologise in advance I don't mean to label an opinion on you I am just venting my own understanding of this interaction :sweat_smile: ) concerning the idea of championing that family of tools and approaches as part of the solution... to me they are provoking agents, just that :angel: . We still have to push for journalism to have again skin in the game, and devote time and resources to value creation in the form of investigation, and we have to rethink a lot of our interactions to accomodate uncertainty and healthy critical skepticism... :slight_smile:" 5,54765,2019-06-09T13:47:13.639Z,10108,0,17,16,1,0,0,38.4,54764,anon3828707713,anon2619552108,""" when we are drowning in information, the artist's work is to make things visible""" 6,54769,2019-06-09T15:49:06.007Z,10108,1,19,18,1,0,0,58.8,54764,anon1753543892,anon2619552108,"[quote="anon2619552108, post:4, topic:10108"] We still have to push for journalism to have again skin in the game, and devote time and resources to value creation in the form of investigation, and we have to rethink a lot of our interactions to accomodate uncertainty and healthy critical skepticism… :slight_smile: [/quote] When it becomes possible to automate certain tasks or give them to AI it is increasingly important to identify which can not be handed over, but also anon2696444391 to properly finance those people who do the investigative and creative tasks we do not want be done by algorithms. In board meetings it is probably a lot easier to convince the investors to get a new software which is often a one time investment, than to increase staff and their payment to make sure enough well educated people are able to do the work. So, anon2696444391 could those important human contributions, for example in journalism but in future probably also in education or art, be better evaluated, financed and argued for in the face of AI's that might be able to take care of some, but not all of those tasks and never to an absolute extend, but which will inadvertently be advertised as such. How can we balance the argumentative and regulative structure to use the new tools without ever overusing and dismissing the necessary human factor and by doing so loosing the necessary expertise and balance?" 7,54776,2019-06-09T17:13:38.661Z,10108,1,18,17,1,0,0,58.6,54769,anon2619552108,anon1753543892,"You raise an important point... the way boards think about investments... ...It is common use to account for the purchase of a machine by modelling the amortisation of the investment over the next few cycles of activity, and if the operation is well done they can later account for residual values... in practice, this is an exercise of projections: they expect to absorb the costs of purchase undercutting the margins of a number of operational cycles, and then expect the future cycles to be purely margin producing, as far as that component is concerned... On the other hand, personnel is a ""liability"" whose costs are prolonged life-long, unless said personnel can be demoted to ""venial"" functions (as it happens e.g. with AI adoption, when the human task is limited to data curation) and consequently kept outside of the structure and only paid per task execution, or fraction of cycle... Now the truth, rather well known to most investors and board members, is that the above amortisation projections are fictional, since they rarely account realistically for maintenance and upgrades (one has to remain competitive, in rhetorics at least), and the real costs of technology are rather much higher than approved... However, they offer the opportunity of playing with finance, via the residuals and margins discourse, and most important of all, to cut on the liability represented by personnel transforming it into an externality... However, the account of the personnel is just as partial as the discourse on amortisation of purchases: personnel grows qualitatively, often exponentially relatively to the investments in continuing education, and can be part of learning organisations, which is not true for machine learning (let's be reminded that today this is very far away from the inflated/hyped general artificial intelligence many imagine when thinking about deep learning and other machine learning approaches). The challenge to us (and this is beyond journalism) is anon2696444391 to change this culture of accounting and management. Our challengers are human resource offices that essentially live by framing candidates and employees in cells construed by titles and certificates, financial and accounting offices that are tasked with maximising short term returns and producing histories of efficiency (as opposed to effectiveness), and technologists/solutionists who have built entire consultancy/entrepreneurial careers on just satisfying those counterparts, conflating their rhetorics, and lobbying for all this. It's a scary inertia. Some economists have started: William H. Janeway is attacking the supremacy of efficiency, pushing effectiveness again in the limelight; Mariana Mazzucato is attacking the entire language of value, pushing back the tsunami of finance that keeps hold of our economies since the 1970s... But we can work to speed some things up, and one would be proposing an alternative frame for accounting, where emphasis of what is measured is put on effectiveness and value creation... Automatization will still find a place, righteously so (for the reason we each mentioned above), but it would not get coopted to satisfy those toxic logics... at least where the frame will be adopted :angel: ...but I am highjacking the thread now :stuck_out_anon2863106368gue:" 8,54777,2019-06-09T17:18:38.765Z,10108,1,14,13,2,1,0,17.8,54776,anon1753543892,anon2619552108,"[quote=""anon2619552108, post:7, topic:10108""] Some economists have started: William H. Janeway is attacking the supremacy of efficiency, pushing effectiveness again in the limelight; Mariana Mazzucato is attacking the entire language of value, pushing back the tsunami of finance that keeps hold of our economies since the 1970s… But we can work to speed some things up, and one would be proposing an alternative frame for accounting, where emphasis of what is measured is put on effectiveness and value creation… Automatization will still find a place, righteously so (for the reason we each mentioned above), but it would not get coopted to satisfy those toxic logics… at least where the frame will be adopted :angel: …but I am highjacking the thread now :stuck_out_anon2863106368gue: [/quote] @anon2619552108 Maybe you could start another thread on the challenge of changing the culture of accounting and explain theories such as William H. Janeway and Mariana Mazzucato a bit further? I think that would be a very relevant and valuable discussion for many issues we are trying to tackle on this platform." 9,54795,2019-06-10T14:45:02.048Z,10108,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,54777,anon2619552108,anon1753543892,"Writing from a white page tends not to be my cup of tea... but I will consider the option. Till the next weekend :)" 10,54993,2019-06-12T12:44:46.718Z,10108,0,13,12,2,0,0,12.6,54795,anon3747875924,anon2619552108,"Hi @anon2619552108 @anon1753543892 video of a talk by [Mazzucato](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KbrmbeD5myk), maybe that's a way to get others into a [theories-of-value](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/the-value-of-everything/10136) discussion" 11,55013,2019-06-12T15:51:51.222Z,10108,2,13,12,1,1,0,32.6,54764,anon3379761435,anon2619552108,"[quote=""anon2619552108, post:4, topic:10108""] Even art, though, has often become a tool of propaganda [/quote] Art *was born* as a tool of propaganda – celebrate the king, or the Church. Michelangelo painted, but Julius II was paying, and he made sure he got what he wanted for his money. Art has many wonderful features, but independence from power is not one of them. Immortal masterpieces of the past start with an apology to some minor noble, who had the chief merit of paying for the artist's upkeep. A partial exception is art for the market. Verdi needed no patron, because he had a publisher (Ricordi) and he could fill the theater. But then, of course, you get commercial art, which *also* has many wonderful features, but has its own collective patron to keep happy. And while we are at it, science also gravitated to power, and was fully captured in its orbit by the mid 19th century. :slight_smile:" 12,55015,2019-06-12T16:45:54.657Z,10108,1,14,13,1,0,0,57.8,55013,anon2619552108,anon3379761435,"Interesting point of view... although by that narrative, the art born as propaganda was already art for the market in reality, since the artist had to pitch ideas and drafts for investments... Also more recent forms of arts for the market have been heavily subsidised for propaganda purposes (e.g. CIA and pop-art)... Art, anon2696444391ever, was not born in the middle age, and it actually predates the historic era tout court, being primarily born by the desire of humans to give shape to their reflections on themselves and the world... and ""minor"" forms of art have always existed in parallel to the idolised-and-paid-for forms, those minor form being the ones to look at, at each time, for art as a reflection on reality... until they were eventually acknowledged, made main stream and paid for, and new forms would start appearing :slight_smile: ...somewhat similarly science, hence Kuhn's peculiar description of its evolutionary dynamics... Science like art has a very peculiar way of periodically giving raise to new questions, and fields ( this is anon2373157426 interesting and recent on the topic https://elifesciences.org/articles/21451 ) and we could argue that Feyerabend and Kuhn should be much more cited than Popper is when talking about it... but I digress :angel: One thing I could say of art and science, one thing that is similar of what was commented above of art and journalism, is that several times in history it was first art to capture a phenomenon, and only later science to try to make sense of it with the same tools that art had used..." 13,55018,2019-06-12T18:56:14.307Z,10108,0,15,14,1,0,0,23.0,54755,anon2945747231,anon2719157517,"talking about AI and news, did you see this initiative? > The principle is straightforward: we pick a topic that is in the news and scan a selection of 50 sources ranging from large publications to small, specialized outlets. We collect a few hundred articles that are parsed through our home-brewed scoring algorithm. The model returns a spreadsheet that contains the URL of the story, the headline, the source, the word-count of the article, and the score. Then, our editor, Christopher Brennan manually removes any “noise,” typically false positive articles that are off-topic. He will also check for oddities, like a 3,000-word piece scoring only 1.8 (it is usually a large multi-topic news wrap up), or a 500-word article scoring a 4.1 (it could be a well-angled short piece from Quartz or Axios; it took us months to remove the misleading correlation of length and quality…). Finally, he will write a short text introducing the topic of the week and after a few checks from the team, we hit the “send” butanon2863106368. https://mondaynote.com/introducing-deepnews-digest-306235826786" 14,55030,2019-06-13T02:00:40.449Z,10108,0,16,15,1,0,0,68.2,54755,anon3203746736,anon2719157517,"To the point about education: what seems to have fallen into less favor is emphasis on teaching critical thinking. It isn't enough to tell people to make sure everyone is more mindful now that so much fakery is around us. I think it takes time to train oneself to question, and to know what to question, and anon2696444391. My brother was a middle school teacher for more than 30 years and year by year that kind of education diminished while ""teaching to the test"" became more important. It caused him to retire early because that was not what he got into teaching for." 15,55080,2019-06-13T13:37:40.428Z,10108,2,16,15,1,0,0,18.2,55013,anon2719157517,anon3379761435,"if the beginning of art were the cave paintings - then it was most likely not really born as propaganda, but as a very pure tool for human expression." 16,55082,2019-06-13T13:40:54.603Z,10108,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,55080,anon3828707713,anon2719157517,"mmm I think they were functional - something to do with transcendence, which btw I think I heard was function of using gold leaf in church deco - functional art before it became expressive/decorative..." 17,55099,2019-06-13T16:32:04.059Z,10108,0,16,15,2,2,0,13.2,55015,anon3379761435,anon2619552108,"[quote=""anon2619552108, post:12, topic:10108""] Art, anon2696444391ever, was not born in the middle age, and it actually predates the historic era tout court, being primarily born by the desire of humans to give shape to their reflections on themselves and the world… [/quote] [quote=""anon if the beginning of art were the cave paintings - then it was most likely not really born as propaganda, but as a very pure tool for human expression. [/quote] You are both right, I stand corrected. Let me reframe: *art*, as an activity, has its own beginnings and drivers. The existence of *artists*, a professional élite devoted to making art, can only arise when there is some surplus (someone has got to grow the food that the artists eat), and somebody who can commandeer such surplus in support of artists. Hence the close alignment of artists with powerful and rich people. The same can be said for professional scholars (but not learning per se), professional warriors (but not fighting per se) etc." 18,55126,2019-06-14T07:52:34.987Z,10108,0,15,14,17,0,0,88.0,54755,anon3747875924,anon2719157517,@anon 1,54848,2019-06-11T08:52:12.414Z,10122,1,18,17,5,0,0,63.6,54848,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"![finance%20instability%20(1)|690x393](upload://gLz1GNix3GnuyyjpD0IYNO4fPlg.png) Hello, dear community members, we are planning the next coming up community call. *What could be done about the Ad-based internet economy with emphasis on the news?* An (almost) face to face discussion extending the discourse discussion: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-is-to-be-done-about-the-ad-based-internet-economy/9821/77 It will take place on *Tuesday the 18th of June from 18:00 to 19:00 Brussels time on zoom* If you are interested: 1. Feel free to specify and propose your own spin on it before and during the call. 2. Invite whoever you think might be interested from within and outside the platform. 3. Tell us if you would you like to take some of the topical lead during the call? Who would maybe prepare some questions or a case study/project to present to others? Please comment here if you are interested and @anon Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/859462719" 2,54858,2019-06-11T10:46:36.263Z,10122,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,54848,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,"I def would like to participate! Also think @anon3203746736, @anon3005461236, @anon1348216222, @anon2197402769, @anon3197437925, @anon1608948641, and @anon3379761435 would be interested to have an irl discussion on the topic?" 3,54861,2019-06-11T10:55:03.064Z,10122,0,17,16,1,0,0,23.4,54858,anon1608948641,anon2945747231,"I definitely am, and already filled in the Doodle :)" 4,54866,2019-06-11T11:22:32.221Z,10122,2,17,16,1,0,0,33.4,54848,anon2945747231,anon1753543892,"@anon850704935 here's social line for push and visual: Facebook, Twitter, news, we all use it for ""free"" but there's a real cost: our data, our privacy. We want a different model. Join us in a community call on the problems of and the solutions to the ad-based internet economy " 5,54868,2019-06-11T11:37:34.793Z,10122,1,13,12,1,1,0,72.6,54848,anon2197402769,anon1753543892,"@anon2945747231: Thanks for pinging me :pray:. Unfortunately, I don't think that I will be able to make up some time for this in the next weeks. [quote=""anon1753543892, post:1, topic:10122""] Who is free when? Fill out the doodle doc here: [https://doodle.com/poll/6q3zg9c34hstu6cu ](https://doodle.com/poll/6q3zg9c34hstu6cu) [/quote] Thanks for that! Doodle might be okay regarding privacy and stuff (I didnt closely look and dont want to become too technical, e.g. relating CDNs), but there are definately better (in the above sense) and Free and Open alternatives, like: [dudle (TU Dresden)](http://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/) or [framadate](https://framadate.org/) and probably a bunch of others (afaik there is a discourse plugin, too -> @anon3197437925 ?)." 6,54872,2019-06-11T12:18:39.411Z,10122,1,14,13,1,1,0,27.8,54868,anon3197437925,anon2197402769,"[quote=""anon2197402769, post:5, topic:10122""]afaik there is a discourse plugin, too[/quote] Yes, there is the Discourse polls plugin, available from the post editor under "":gear: → Build Poll"". We use that at times for making appointments already, it works reasonably well." 7,54874,2019-06-11T12:33:36.535Z,10122,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,54866,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,@anon850704935 let us know with links when it's online so we can all easily reshare/retweet. Thanks! 8,54883,2019-06-11T13:07:09.899Z,10122,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,54872,anon1753543892,anon3197437925,"That is good to know, anon2696444391 can we use it?" 9,54885,2019-06-11T13:17:12.509Z,10122,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,54883,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"You basically list the proposed dates and times of an appointment as options in the poll. For details about setting up Discourse polls: https://meta.discourse.org/t/anon2696444391-to-create-polls/77548" 10,54949,2019-06-12T09:09:44.571Z,10122,1,14,13,2,0,0,17.8,54866,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,@anon850704935 what's the update on this? :) 11,54960,2019-06-12T10:11:12.373Z,10122,0,15,14,2,0,0,13.0,54848,anon850704935,anon1753543892,Some issues with having proper access to posting. We're working on it 12,54986,2019-06-12T12:18:57.799Z,10122,2,13,12,3,0,0,27.6,54949,anon850704935,anon2945747231,Gained access to FB. Your text to share with this link https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-is-to-be-done-about-the-ad-based-internet-economy/9821/49 ? 13,54991,2019-06-12T12:33:09.985Z,10122,1,13,12,2,0,0,17.6,54986,anon3379761435,anon850704935,"@anon850704935 that is a comment (the topic is 9821). If you click on it you will not see the original post, but comment number 49. It can happen that people want to share a comment, but it's rare." 14,54992,2019-06-12T12:34:53.072Z,10122,1,13,12,2,0,0,17.6,54991,anon850704935,anon3379761435,I do believe it's better to share the whole topic in a post so people can get context. OK to share the link to the topic? 15,54997,2019-06-12T12:56:10.126Z,10122,1,11,10,2,1,0,17.2,54992,anon850704935,anon850704935,"[quote=""anon850704935, post:12, topic:10122""] https://anon1577251828.eu/t/what-is-to-be-done-about-the-ad-based-internet-economy/9821/49 [/quote] Shared the link to topic!" 16,55002,2019-06-12T13:44:48.351Z,10122,1,11,10,1,0,0,12.2,54997,anon2945747231,anon850704935,"hm, it would've been better with event, anyway you can change it on FB? because we need people to first know it's an actual event and they are invited, our aim with this social outreach is not to have them write, but join the call. (I shared this on riot)" 17,55003,2019-06-12T13:46:12.868Z,10122,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,55002,anon2945747231,anon2945747231,Oh and please share the social links here with us 18,55014,2019-06-12T16:40:26.171Z,10122,1,14,13,1,0,0,12.8,55003,anon3203746736,anon2945747231,"I would make anon2945747231 and fsimonov hosts of the ER FB page so their comments display front and center. I would do it but I am not the host either. Sometimes I make comments there or post links, but they sit on the side where nobody much sees them." 19,55100,2019-06-13T16:35:12.322Z,10122,1,14,13,1,0,0,87.8,55014,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,"Ok, the doodle (which in future iterations will be replaces by the Discourse Polls Tool) has been up for a few days now and Tuesday the 18th of June seems to be the best date at such a short notice. ### Therefore I am now announcing a community call on the topic of ad-base economy and news for Tuesday the 18th of June starting time 18:00 - 19:00 on zoom. We can now all invite more people we know who might be interested. Will update the top post with the date and time. Would someone from the original discussion like to/ be available to preparing some initial questions or examples to get the discussion going? @anon3203746736 , @anon1608948641 , @anon2945747231 , @anon3379761435, @anon1348216222 , @anon" 20,55101,2019-06-13T16:36:39.955Z,10122,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,55100,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,I'd rather skip... 21,55173,2019-06-14T16:10:29.168Z,10122,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,54848,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Here the link to join the community call via zoom: Topic: Any news @anon Time: Jun 18, 2019 6:00 PM Brussels Join Zoom Meeting https://zoom.us/j/859462719" 1,53775,2019-05-22T19:56:15.388Z,9954,0,22,21,95,0,0,539.4,53775,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"
Posting the CCC call for contributions here as the call just opened. There are always people from the Edgeryders scene at both congress and camp. When there is money to do so the Edgeryders org tries to help cover some of the costs for those who want to go in exchange for sharing what you learn with others who cannot go. This is usually in the form of a thoughtful post on the platform summarising interesting projects, discussions you heard or participated in like this one @anon So if you want to go with a crew or as a community reporter, let's organise something together. leave a comment below or DM me if you prefer :slightly_smiling_face:
___ # [Call for Participation: Chaos Communication Camp 2019](https://events.ccc.de/2019/05/22/call-for-participation-chaos-communication-camp-2019/) The Chaos Communication Camp in [Mildenberg](http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/267114042) is an open-air hacker camp and party that takes place every four years, organized by the Chaos Computer Club (CCC). Thousands of hackers, technology freaks, artists and utopians get together for five days in the Brandenburg summer – to communicate, learn, hack and party together. We focus on topics such as information technology, digital security, hacking, crafting, making and breaking, and we engage in creative, sceptical discourse on the interaction between technology and society. We’d love to see your submission for these tracks: * Arts & Culture, * Ethics, Society & Politics, * Hardware & Making, * Security & Hacking, * Science. Apart from the official conference program on the main stages, the Chaos Communication Camp also offers space for community villages, developer and project meetings, art installations, lightning talks and numerous workshops (called “self-organized sessions”). ### Lightning talks Got something interesting to say but don’t want to submit a full talk? Consider doing a lightning talk instead! You will have five minutes to present your ideas or projects – or just to rant, if you need to vent. A formal submission through our submission system (called „frab“) is not required; as usual, the lightning talks are organized via our public wiki. Lightning talks can be held in German or English and will be streamed, recorded and published (see below). For projects, installations, workshops, sessions hosted in assemblies and other fun stuff is no formal submission through frab required. There will be a wiki page to keep track of requirements for space and other resources. Simply start already considering now what you would like to make, bring, or sanon2696444391, and write it down once the wiki goes online. ### Dates & deadlines * May 22th, 2019: Call for Participation * June 11th, 2019 (23:59 CEST): Deadline for submissions * July 10th: Notification of acceptance * August 21st – 25th, 2019: Chaos Communication Camp at [Ziegeleipark Mildenberg](http://www.ziegeleipark.de/index.html) ### Submission guidelines for talks All lectures need to be submitted to our conference planning system under the following URL: https://frab.cccv.de/cfp/camp2019. Please follow the instructions there. If you have any questions regarding the submission, you are welcome to contact us via mail at camp2019-content@anon Please send us a description of your suggested talk that is as complete as possible. The description is the central criterium for acceptance or rejection, so please ensure that it is as clear and complete as possible. Quality comes before quantity. Due to the non-commercial nature of the event, presentations which aim to market or promote commercial products or entities will be rejected without consideration. Since most participants find – or don’t find a lecture by its title, it’s important to keep your talk description precise, accessible and comprehensible. Our teams will keep a keen eye on title and subtitle and make suggestions to change them if necessary, so please avoid insider jokes and stereotypes. As it is likely that there will be multiple submissions on the same topic, please sanon2696444391 us exactly why your talk should be part of the conference. Remember that the teams are diversely staffed, and not every reviewer knows every submitter and their backgrounds. Please write something about yourself, your research, and your motivation. It does not matter if the talk has been held at another conference somewhere on this planet, as long as it is up to date and relevant. Talks should be 45 minutes long and can include up to 15 minutes for questions and answers. Longer slots are possible if absolutely necessary, but should be an exception. Please take our limited amount of presentation time into consideration, check anon2696444391 much time you really need to bring home your points and then tell us the proposed length of your talk. ### Language Although the Chaos Communication Camp is an international event and a lot of content is presented in English, there will again be a translation team that will simultaneously translate most German talks into English. So if you are not comfortable with presenting in English, don’t hesitate to present your lecture in German. If your talk will be held in English, your submission should also be in English. ### Publication Audio and video recordings of the lectures will be published in various formats at [media.ccc.de](https://media.ccc.de/) under the license Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0). This license allows commercial use of excerpts by media institutions as part of their reporting. If you do not wish for material from your lecture to be published or streamed, please let us know in your submission. Note: As German law (and therefore the license) might differ from the law of your country, please let us know if you have any issues or questions regarding the exact implications. Unfortunately, we can’t guarantee a perfect translation. ### Travel, costs & visa The Chaos Communication Camp is a great adventure for us, also financially. As we’re all there to have a nice time together, and split the costs, we cannot offer a different entrance fee for speakers, workshop organizers or angels. The camp is a non-commercial event where neither the organisers nor the speakers are being paid – thus, we cannot provide a free entrance ticket, even for speakers. If necessary, we are anon2696444391ever able to provide limited support for travel costs. If you need help applying for a visa, such as an official invitation to present to the German embassy, please let the content team know well in advance. Please be aware that the visa application procedure may take up to six weeks or longer! *Photo: Fabrizio, [CC BY-SA 2.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/).*" 2,54196,2019-05-30T08:19:49.497Z,9954,1,17,16,2,0,0,108.4,53775,anon901895853,anon3828707713,The world is such a small place. I just received a demand to be the Brussels beer deliverer for Hackerspace BXL who is also attending the camp. They also say there is place in their bus and embassy tent if any anon1577251828 from Brussels would want to come with. Tom says hey @anon3828707713 ! 3,54478,2019-06-04T06:19:54.612Z,9954,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,54196,anon3828707713,anon901895853,"Yes!! He reached out to me on another channel about whether we had vouchers. I know a couple of people who might - will check, this is something Id like to attend myself. Do you have space in the truck to give someone a ride?" 4,54585,2019-06-05T13:15:43.870Z,9954,1,16,15,2,0,0,78.2,53775,anon659222949,anon3828707713,"Yeah, I'm interested in attending. I turned in a an application to do a session in the Art & Culture track on some of the Participio tools – Dreams, Realities and our Loomio and Pretix integrations." 5,54726,2019-06-08T09:02:16.276Z,9954,1,14,13,1,0,0,27.8,54585,anon3828707713,anon659222949,"Ok ill ask around and see who has more vouchers in case more people xant to join. Camp is most fun if you are part of a crew and set up your own space with activities in it, or join a nice one. I really enjoyed the Belgian one - lovely, friendly people and i learned to make my own circuitboard from scratch :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: @anon3086952555 are you going to camp?" 6,54734,2019-06-08T09:38:24.000Z,9954,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,54726,anon3086952555,anon3828707713,"@anon3828707713 alas I won't be able to make it, but my good friend and long time thingscon collaborator Dries de Roeck will be there for sure, I'll hook you up! [Sent from a mobile, please apologize the brevity and typos.]" 7,54740,2019-06-08T14:27:52.506Z,9954,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,53775,anon3538373179,anon3828707713,"Hey, I just discovered the event now and I have already a half-plan for these days, but there's still a potential + 3 days for submission of lecture proposal (unless I only want to give a shorter 'lightning talk' - as I understood... ) Just a couple of questions if you dont mind: - what are those split costs? - are Edgeryders going together? - is it like the Borderland model that no 'audience' and everyone is a contributor(lecturer, artists, angel)? Thank you Best, anon3538373179" 8,54762,2019-06-09T12:12:57.466Z,9954,2,10,9,1,0,0,92.0,54740,anon3828707713,anon3538373179,"anon3538373179 let me check who is going. Regarding content it is participatory in a similar way to borderline, though the culture/crowd is a bit different. The split costs bit - going to camp costs: ticket + travel + food. Accomodations = bring your own tent. We try to organise that people can carshare from brussels. Ideally people cover their own trip to brussels and we can cover the ticket fee. What we ask in exchange is that people contribute back to the community. E.g by organising a workshop or writing a thoughtful article to share what you discovered/learned during the event." 9,54815,2019-06-10T21:19:27.273Z,9954,1,10,9,1,0,0,57.0,54762,anon3538373179,anon3828707713,"Dear @anon3828707713, I hadn't expected that, but I am very drawn to participate, thank you for a generous answer.I know I'd definately love to write a post-event article. When it comes to organising a workshop: is that right that it can take various forms and last 45 min. Is that a requirement that one creates both an article AND workshop? (Ideally, I'd like to do both, but - as I said - I have 24 hours to figure all out ;) As tomorrow is the deadline, I will be asking further questions via [camp2019-content@anon anon3538373179" 10,54988,2019-06-12T12:22:06.835Z,9954,0,9,8,2,1,0,11.8,54762,anon3778288340,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:8, topic:9954""] We try to organise that people can carshare from brussels. Ideally people cover their own trip to brussels and we can cover the ticket fee. What we ask in exchange is that people contribute back to the community. E.g by organising a workshop... [/quote] Hi @anon3828707713 I might be too late to ask but would it be possible to still contribute? I would propose to run a workshop based on a project of mine: [http://www.adventurelabs.co.uk](Adventure Labs) where we would make devices to solve a puzzle or problem, introducing people to ways of making physical sensor based devices and I'd happily team up with Edgeryders at this event to do that. I could come to Brussels and I would bring all the kit to use and the planned session too (though you'd be welcome to contribute to the theme/content/format of the session). Would it be appropriate and would the community be interested?" 11,54990,2019-06-12T12:28:10.904Z,9954,2,9,8,2,0,0,36.8,54815,anon3828707713,anon3538373179,"I asked someone if they might have a token lying around. ""maybe"" :slight_smile: Will keep looking, maybe you guys can ask around too using the camp hashtag on twitter or via redditt @anon3538373179 @anon659222949 @anon3778288340 ?" 12,55000,2019-06-12T13:39:33.238Z,9954,0,9,8,2,1,0,11.8,54990,anon659222949,anon3828707713,"[quote=""anon3828707713, post:11, topic:9954""] Will keep looking, maybe you guys can ask around too using the camp hashtag on twitter or via redditt @anon3538373179 @anon659222949 @anon3778288340 ? [/quote] Yup, I'm asking around. No success yet. None of my usual suspects had any left." 13,55143,2019-06-14T11:35:03.000Z,9954,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,54990,anon3538373179,anon3828707713,"Thank you so much Nadia and team, I've decided to make my application/proposal in Copenhagen/Roskilde University for VR event instead - which overlaps with the Camp. I wish you really inspiring times and hope to attend&collaborate another time. Best, anon3538373179" 1,55048,2019-06-13T08:59:37.327Z,10140,0,12,11,5,0,0,27.4,55048,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"Hi everyone! These weekly calls are where the Edgeryders communication crew coordinates the work of supporting project crews, community managers, fellows and community members to get the word out and engage people in the exciting work everyone is doing. They happen here every tuesday at 16.30 CET: https://zoom.us/j/482525755 Feel free to add activities, Links to content, questions or proposals for topics/questions/campaigns/projects that you wish us to include in the agenda for the next call in a comment below. Also, if you have information, input that can help us please feel free to post in comments below! ## IOH **Current Affairs, News or events in the world** * *what are hot conversation topics where you live on the internet and in the world? _These can be general ones such as the unfolding church scandal in Poland, or the massive protests against corruption in the Czech Republic in a campaign that is being driven by the Czech Pirate party. Or they can be more specific to tech._ **Upcoming Activities** * is there anything related to your own work/interests that you would like more people to know about? * Any events that you are going to, involved in, would like to organise or see happen with others in the Edgeryders scene? **IOH Conversations** * Any conversations that you have come across here and that you would like to see more people join? * Maybe you have a burning question, or topic that you wish us to help build a conversation around for you. * My own ones are... -- **Tech + Sustainability:** How to do a campaign/ call for people to send us burning questions to explore around this topic? What is the call for action/input? Who do we want in this conversation? -- **Tech + Justice:** How to do a campaign/ call for people to send us burning questions to explore around this topic? What is the call for action/input? Who do we want in this conversation? **IOH is what we make of it, so what would you like to see in here? Tell us!**
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHM29F2h2qI" 2,55055,2019-06-13T09:23:41.403Z,10140,1,11,10,1,0,0,72.2,55048,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,"I already gave @anon850704935 the heads up about the [blog](https://anon1577251828.eu/tags/blog?view=topic-preview). In general, what goes there is curated content intended for general consumption. So, I encourage the comms team to keep an eye on the blog feed and treat every post as material to push out. You could even recycle some content of the past, as long as it was not too heavily time-specific." 3,55076,2019-06-13T13:02:41.603Z,10140,0,8,7,1,0,0,51.6,55055,anon850704935,anon3379761435,First iteration of the social media post plan coming up! 4,55104,2019-06-13T18:21:40.360Z,10140,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,55048,anon659222949,anon3828707713,I will be there for the call! 5,55130,2019-06-14T08:30:59.988Z,10140,0,6,5,1,0,0,6.2,55104,anon3828707713,anon659222949,great- anything you want to add to the agenda? 1,54768,2019-06-09T15:33:59.501Z,10109,0,15,14,12,0,0,153.0,54768,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Dear edgeryder community members connecting things and people through the internet of the future: I found a design challenge that might be along the lines of a few projects (@anon3086952555 might be something for you or someone you know of? Napkin sketch submission rolling until the 20th of June, those selected are given tools to further describe their ideas. 1200 £ for the winner 750 £ for the runner up.): https://designchallenge.virteuproject.eu/ ### What they are looking for They're looking for concepts that speak to the question of… ""How might we use connected Internet of Things systems and products to re-imagine collaborative and communal living that is sensitive to differences between members of these living spaces?"" In particular, they want submissions which are… * Early stage designs that use connected IoT systems and products to explore new ways of living together * Ideas about anon2696444391 to balance personalisation, privacy, and the experience with the interests and preferences of different people who live together * Creative interventions in using connected devices to provide for life together, not only as individuals ### How it works: ### How the Design Challenge Works The Design Challenge has two rounds. **Round 1** *Deadline: rolling until June 20th* Submit your “napkin sketch” - very early sketch and description of your idea **Round 2** *Deadline: June 20* ""Selected applicants from Round 1 are given beta tools to support their concept development and are invited to submit full materials of technical diagram, user storyboard and business plan We will consider all of the concepts submitted within the deadline and evaluate them. On or before June 27th we will announce the finalists who will be invited present their concept at the final VIRT-EU design challenge event as part of ORGCon on 13 July 2019 in London. [ORGCon is Open Rights Group's conference](https://orgcon.openrightsgroup.org/2019) in London. The selected concepts will be the ones that best answer the Challenge question and have the most potential for impact"" ### Would be great if some projects of people connected to the community could become part of this :)" 2,55034,2019-06-13T05:43:27.679Z,10109,1,7,6,1,0,0,11.4,54768,anon3379761435,anon1753543892,Looks like one for @anon1016081892. 3,55037,2019-06-13T06:13:00.080Z,10109,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,55034,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,Or @anon2503645710 4,55039,2019-06-13T06:48:26.000Z,10109,1,8,7,1,0,0,56.6,55037,anon2503645710,anon3828707713,"Ah thanks! Looks interesting, I’ll put something together :)" 5,55040,2019-06-13T07:01:42.438Z,10109,1,8,7,1,0,0,11.6,55039,anon3828707713,anon2503645710,"Kat while you are at it check this out, especially the fellowship (we are doing several batches so ignore the May 30 deadline): https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh" 6,55042,2019-06-13T07:26:35.000Z,10109,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,55040,anon2503645710,anon3828707713,Thanks Nadia I’ll take a look! 1,54190,2019-05-30T03:56:34.354Z,10029,1,23,22,6,0,0,54.6,54190,anon3591841007,anon3591841007,"I recently met Alberto in an unrelated setting, and then discovered that he was the Alberto with whom I had interacted on Edgeryders 4 years ago. The discussions about the Internet of Humans seem to be near to what drives me. So I will first link to What I wrote in 2015 : https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-proposal-for-testing-assembl/4140 and add : A main ingrediant of what I propose is : 1. not to use words as the basic semantic unit, but ""Word senses"" , somewhat like WordNet but in a more radical way. 2. context(s), in a specified format, is mandatory for any text or sentence. That means some work at a basic level of software design. Not difficult, but structural. This is a anon2488317424 short as an introduction, but it is late, and it is probably better that I reply to comments and questions rather that try to guess them." 2,54208,2019-05-30T11:55:09.617Z,10029,1,17,16,1,1,0,13.4,54190,anon659222949,anon3591841007,"[quote=""anon3591841007, post:1, topic:10029""] I have been thinking about the use of networked computers as a aid to thinking at a global scale [/quote] This is the goal of [Worldbrain](https://medium.com/@anon" 3,54242,2019-05-30T15:20:22.267Z,10029,2,16,15,1,0,0,63.2,54208,anon3591841007,anon659222949,"Yes. The goal is the same. I have installed Memex. But as I said, words are not an adequate basic semantic unit. It leads to problems at many levels. For example : translation (unless you want to impose english as global language you have to learn if you want to participate). I my opinion what is needed is something like UNL, but more radical. from Wikipedia : ""Universal Networking Language (UNL) is a declarative formal language specifically designed to represent semantic data extracted from natural language texts. It can be used as a pivot language in interlingual machine translation systems or as a knowledge representation language in information retrieval applications.""" 4,54244,2019-05-30T15:24:50.552Z,10029,0,16,15,1,1,0,8.2,54242,anon659222949,anon3591841007,"[quote=""anon3591841007, post:3, topic:10029""] words are not an adequate basic semantic unit. It leads to problems at many levels. For example : translation (unless you want to impose english as global language you have to learn if you want to participate). [/quote] This is a topic currently being explored by us in Edgeryders. Indeed, we will do [multi-lingual ethnographic coding](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/doing-ssna-in-multiple-languages/8058) in the coming years. @anon2559300400 and @anon3379761435, do you have any insights to share on that front?" 5,54665,2019-06-06T16:42:31.047Z,10029,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,54242,anon3203746736,anon3591841007,Do you have any examples of what you mean by UNL in this context and anon2696444391 much more radical would you be? 6,54827,2019-06-11T04:09:49.565Z,10029,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,54665,anon3591841007,anon3203746736,"To answer that question I will cite the ""Scope and goals"" section of the Wikipedia article [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Networking_Language#Scope_and_goals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Networking_Language#Scope_and_goals) and add in line comments where my approach diverges. Normal font for common parts [_italic for parts specific to UNL_] [**bold for parts specific to my approach**]. UNL is designed to establish a simple foundation for representing [_the most central aspects of_] [, **without preset constraints**,] information and meaning in a machine- and human-language-independent form. As a language-independent formalism, UNL aims to code, store, disseminate and retrieve information independently of the original language in which it was expressed. In this sense, UNL seeks to provide tools for overcoming the language barrier in a systematic way. At first glance, UNL seems to be a kind of interlingua, into which [_source texts are_] [**live input is**] converted before being translated into target languages. It can, in fact, be used for this purpose, and very efficiently, too. However, its real strength is knowledge representation and its primary objective is to provide an infrastructure [_for handling knowledge that already exists or can exist in any given language_] **[that enables much easier aquisition and creation of knowledge, and constructive discussions, that crosses the present day cultural and academic boundaries**]. [_Nevertheless, it is important to note that at present it would be foolish to claim to represent the “full” meaning of any word, sentence, or text for any language. Subtleties of intention and interpretation make the “full meaning,” anon2696444391ever we might conceive it, too variable and subjective for any systematic treatment. Thus UNL avoids the pitfalls of trying to represent the “full meaning” of sentences or texts, targeting instead the “core” or “consensual” meaning most often attributed to them_]. [**I treat the context free “full meaning” of words as a mostly a meaningless abstraction that is not worth pursuing as an aim. The only pertinant meaning to me is the one in the authors mind. The aim is to make that meaning available to the readers with the least possible deformation. The unit of meaning I propose is a word sense that includes its context (or domain of validity).** **When the author inputs a text into the system he either finds one in the system or creates it on the spot. That creation will be part of the text, so there is no need of a centrally managed ontology. As in natural language such ""neologisms"" propagate with their usage. They can be included in independently managed ontologies, that can specialise either in general or specialised domains, and made available to authors**]." 1,54562,2019-06-05T06:58:40.023Z,10075,1,11,10,2,0,0,107.2,54562,anon3778288340,anon3778288340,"I thought folks might be interested in this https://www.worldenvironmentday.global/ This year's topic is air pollution, last year plastic pollution. The solutions are not coming through very fast and our governments are very slow to react, they're too busy with their immediate concerns of position and control rather than tomorrow's I think it's good we have campaigns like these to draw awareness, I think it's useful to include some guides to what we can do to minimise pollution but I don't see enough action. The day itself is poorly advertised, I haven't seen anything about it in national media and a ""day"" hardly seems sufficient. Whilst reading the site I can't help but feel it suggests the activities that take place on the 5th of June could someanon2696444391 compensate for the damage we're doing... It's not the intention but it's the risk that after doing so some will feel they've wiped their hands clean of responsibility for another year... Maybe it's just a marketing issue or maybe it's that emphasis on just a ""day"" seems to miss the point but we are yet to see effective use of the internet to drive systemic change. So anon2696444391 could the internet be better used for campaigns like these? If we were to run such a campaign anon2696444391 could we make it more effective? Is there continued direct action that the internet can foster, enhance, and make easier?" 2,54685,2019-06-07T11:56:26.269Z,10075,1,7,6,1,1,0,26.4,54562,anon3379761435,anon3778288340,"[quote=""anon3778288340, post:1, topic:10075""] Maybe it’s just a marketing issue or maybe it’s that emphasis on just a “day” seems to miss the point but we are yet to see effective use of the internet to drive systemic change. [/quote] In fairness, it is a difficult call to make. So many important issues competing for our attention... it's hard to stay focused." 3,54718,2019-06-07T22:19:43.181Z,10075,0,7,6,1,0,0,21.4,54562,anon3203746736,anon3778288340,At this point if every day isn't world environment day we're pretty screwed.. 4,54724,2019-06-08T08:23:11.817Z,10075,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,54685,anon3778288340,anon3379761435,"True I'm guilty of that too, focus is difficult, the domain is very broad - it's the world... It is good that the conversations emerging in Internet of Humans is helping narrow down to something to focus on though" 5,54770,2019-06-09T15:55:57.315Z,10075,1,7,6,1,0,0,26.4,54562,anon1753543892,anon3778288340,"[quote="anon3778288340, post:1, topic:10075"] Maybe it’s just a marketing issue or maybe it’s that emphasis on just a “day” seems to miss the point but we are yet to see effective use of the internet to drive systemic change. So anon2696444391 could the internet be better used for campaigns like these? If we were to run such a campaign anon2696444391 could we make it more effective? Is there continued direct action that the internet can foster, enhance, and make easier? [/quote] I think another problem with events and campaigns like this is that their punctual nature allows it for people to turn off light for an hour on one day or to like something on Facebook to feel a bit better and a bit as if they are helping to solve the problem. Of course generating awareness is important but as mentioned in more long lasting ways and without easy options to satisfy the uneasiness the shared knowledge generates via a a light or like butanon2863106368. Therefore I would argue to simultaneously not make the campaign too easy for the receivers, but of course work on making it easier for those initiating them." 6,54782,2019-06-10T04:13:56.549Z,10075,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,54770,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,"Awareness that leads to more individual responsibility is a good thing, but that awareness really has to become political pressure to get governments not just on board but assigning to this the proper priority. So for in the countries with the most impact that is not happening." 1,54221,2019-05-30T13:25:53.593Z,10036,0,20,19,12,0,0,214.0,54221,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,".... This means that it is vital that citizens become part of the full loop, from the beginning of asking questions about smart services in smart cities to feeling safe and secure with their home appliances. That is why in 2010, Council set up IoT Day on April 9th ([iotday.org](https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8090451/iotday.org)). The event has grown in scale and scope as IoT sinks more into everyday life. For the 2017 edition, there were 58 events across the globe, ranging from people in a bar talking about the changes that they see in their daily work, to panels and seminars and professional workshops. The purpose of IoT Day is to get an organic, local public debate going, resulting in larger groups of diverse people asking what kind of society they want. For the 2018 edition, Council will team up with the IoT Consortium ([iofthings.org](https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8090451/iofthings.org)). Starting this fall, using the [iotday.org](https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8090451/iotday.org)/ events link, you can upload events for 9 April 2018. Council is a timely ecosystem. Although it is not yet viewed as a strategic powerhouse, having grown only slowly without any advertising, it will soon become more visible in that capacity. It is a small but decisive building block, building a new political decentralized system where transparency reigns, all nodes are equal, and earlier dependencies are eradicated. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8090451" 2,54351,2019-05-31T23:25:20.308Z,10036,0,19,18,1,0,0,8.8,54221,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"It is a useful document, @anon3554654177, thank you for sharing it. I find this ""origin story"" really interesting. You were part of a small group of people who, early on, saw a transformation coming. You concluded you had > [...] *two options: either we assist policy to ensure that at least some public space survives, or we build our own parallel systems* . Question: anon2696444391, in your opinion, can public space be made to survive? I know, for example, Arduino founder Massimo Banzi's take on this matter: never connect devices with anything other than open source hardware and software. This will put some ""give"" into the system. Last time I heard him speak about this, he preferred to use the locution ""connected devices"" instead of ""Internet of things"". On the opposite side of the argument, Alan Greenfield has a model of anon2696444391 a related concept, ""smart city"", has been gaining traction, despite very serious intellectual, moral and technical shortcomings: > What happens [...] inside the municipal bodies that constitute the primary presumptive audience for such a marketing campaign? Low-level bureaucrats, pressed for time and starved for insight, stumble onto this thicket of conversation via a cursory keyword search; they copy-and-paste a few lines from the first reasonably credible-looking search result into their PowerPoint slides, unmodified; and these slides then get submitted up the hierarchy. The language propagates across the institution — and, what’s more, it meshes with that found in the hurriedly-downloaded white papers on the subject that someone found on the website of a name-brand management consultancy. The savvier staffers start to feel confident using these terms: speaking in them, thinking in them. In other words, no solution is offered. All we know is marketing, and anything that feeds the hype, make matters much, much worse. What does your group think?" 3,54354,2019-06-01T07:37:43.227Z,10036,1,15,14,1,0,0,103.0,54221,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"Hi Alberto, We do not have 'one' group. There is no ""we"". I can only talk for myself. People that I meet align than go elsewhere. We share a sensibility, that is all. When that converges you get a certain idea of where the keys to change are. None of what I have written was 'engineered', it all happened, like it is happening now. So I speak for me. As we are part of a project that works with public money, you, me, must believe in this public space, otherwise we would not be in it. I believe in it to the extent that I can be a real agent in trying to change it. That is what I am trying to achieve with the invite only expert workshops in the Taskforces, to build a common understanding that there is no escape from this transition and that leadership means taking control of the drivers. I get very good input and feedback, a lot of gov and biz are beginning to see the world will consist of a few large ecosystems and we can shape ours. Every situation is historical and full of opportunity of change. Thinking the course is set is not for people in a strategy group, but for people who are afraid and want to escape. On the parallel systems: here ‹we see the LEDGER space opening up and with DECODE and Jaromil led zenroom (see decodeproject.eu) ideas about data, privacy, security are no longer niche but getting traction, alongside the awareness that is build with dowse.eu. I am talking with hardcore thinkers like Stephan Engberg who too thinks we need to rebuild bottom-up - literally aiming to replace/upgrade almost all standards. And I fully agree. But I do not want to do that for one village, or one group of people and that means that without agency on the system as such we can not change its drivers or slow it down. And besides, this is the Borg we are engulfed in, there is not one location on the planet of the grid that will remain 'free' (which is why Moneyland aims to go to the Moon/Mars).And we need to slow it down as the world is now clocking in on a crazy Silicon Valley individualist start start start up mode. We need to take back our own pace. On Arduino: I wads around when that started from IVREA Design School, as a great educational project of building a micro processor as a design challenge that turned out to be a great prototyping platform on the PROCESSINg of Casey Reas. https://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/Credits Arduino brilliantly steered this design object into a fully open source environment tuned to makers first https://www.fastcompany.com/3025320/anon2696444391-arduino-is-becoming-the-worlds-social-network-for-hackers-and-makers and then, now to partnering with Intel and ARM. In a way they have become a anon2373157426 normal IoT company. Being close to them I can contact them quickly when Council members in Lagos want training, for example. I am very happy to hear more from Banzi but I think connected devices is just another name for the kind of connectivity that is IoT. https://www.engadget.com/2019/05/18/arduino-nano-boards/ ""Some argue that the maker movement may have passed its peak and is now moving away from microelectronics, but Banzi is not convinced. “Here in Europe, the maker scene is different from California where it is closely related to artists, hackers, and the local franon2945747231 culture. In Europe, there is a lot of overlap between makers and small and medium enterprises. A lot of these small companies run using maker methodologies. For instance, if they don’t have the money for expensive machinery, they build their own do‑it‑yourself solutions using maker tools.”"" https://www.u-blox.com/en/blog/innovation/discussion-makers-arduino’s-massimo-banzi So yes I am very interested in new network topologies, in breaking tcp-ip, in investigating networks that connect only to each other at the edge, no central node, no server architecture 'systems' like https://smarimccarthy.is/articles/2012-08-24-centralization-vs-decentralization-two-centuries-of-authority-in-design/ And we have money in NGI to fund these ideas, so if you know of hackers and ciders who want to investigate these types of new connectivities please send three to me so we can help them broker proposals. On Adam: I have known Adam for over 15 years. He first reached out to me when I was working as Flow editor with John Thackara on Doors of Perception: http://flow.doorsofperception.com Incidentally that is where I laid the foundation for a large part of my understanding of what is now #IOT meeting for example my good friend Usman Haque from Pachube (as no EU VC was found -typically- forced to sell to US VC Logmein, Xively and now oh irony: Google). Since then we met in Taiwan where I went with him on one of his very good and productive city walks, set next to him in meetings where he was asanon2863106368ished anon2696444391 I could sit all day through these awful ppt presentations indeed of IoT architectures (I told him I daydream) and had him invited (with Alex Bassi) to speak to the entire IERC and IOT Forum community in 2012 in Venice https://iotweek.org/speaker/adam-greenfield/ He then presented a set of slides which consisted purely of the marketing ppt of all major companies. Her thought that would wake up the crowd, the IoT community, all they saw was someone playing back the same hype that the marketeers in their own HQS were building that none of them believed as well. Adam thought he was 'critical' in the lions den. It had no effect at all. I was in the audience with the engineers, in the projects, working hard as one of the team and I saw this firsthand. It had no effect as I predicted that in the 2007 text. You can not fight an ontological change with toolsets from the old paradigm. The only way, simple Bucky, is to build a new one alongside it. All else, flight, escape, protest, hacks, simply strengthens the funders and vested interests, in fact by opposing them you give them fuel to hold out a bit longer. But OK! I still respect that position, a lot. A kind of similar attempt is done by Aral Balkan and Schrecko Horvath and DIEM who also think I have gone over to the dark side when I try to expose my ideas to them that include working with current gov and current big tech and SME and hackers and.....in order to build a smart society - if it has to be smart - then preferably a smart society for all and not just for the rich or the hipsters. IoT is a basic operation of automation started from the Industrial Revolution with a logic that seems to be of its own and whoever denies that it is real, but that it is marketing at this moment is totally irresponsible towards the younger generations the Igens and Millennials on their devices all the time, rapidly growing up in a fully engineered AR and VR fed Matrix. Anyone doing that for really good personal reasons and from an old worn through position like Adam I respect. Anyone voicing that position now makes him or herself fully irrelevant, niche and in my opinion romantically escapist. Interested in a pragmatic approach: Free e-book https://www.spranon2945747231r.com/gp/book/9783642404023" 4,54491,2019-06-04T08:58:25.220Z,10036,0,14,13,1,1,0,7.8,54354,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"[quote=""anon3554654177, post:3, topic:10036""] We do not have ‘one’ group. There is no “we”. I can only talk for myself. People that I meet align than go elsewhere. [/quote] Ouch. I try not to make that particular mistake... it seems I slipped. Noted, and apologies for attributing you things you did not say. In my defense, the document might be interpreted as there being a ""we"" (""I tried to raise awareness among my friends, artists, writers, thinkers, and makers [...] This is about us [...] It was time we organize""]. [quote=""anon3554654177, post:3, topic:10036""] [Greenfield] then presented a set of slides which consisted purely of the marketing ppt of all major companies. Her thought that would wake up the crowd, the IoT community, all they saw was someone playing back the same hype that the marketeers in their own HQS were building that none of them believed as well. Adam thought he was ‘critical’ in the lions den. It had no effect at all. [/quote] What a fascinating story! It seems to imply that *everyone in the room was fully aware that they were part of an effort with no intellectual integrity*. ""Yeah, so? What did you expect? We know it's a scam, we are in it for the money."" Is that what you mean? That's way darker than I thought. :frowning: I am not sure anon2696444391 to deal with your assertion that [quote=""anon3554654177, post:3, topic:10036""] whoever denies that [the IoT] is real, but that it is marketing at this moment is totally irresponsible towards the younger generations [...] Anyone doing that for really good personal reasons and from an old worn through position like Adam I respect. Anyone voicing that position now makes him or herself fully irrelevant, niche and in my opinion romantically escapist. [/quote] In *Against the smart city*, Greenfield does not deny the reality of the *consequences* of the smart city discourse. In fact, the book ends on a warning: > this rhetoric does work in the world. It sets agendas, influences perceptions of what it means to be ""advanced,"" recalibrates norms and guides the allocation of resources. Proliferated across the network without end or limit, we can see it filling an entire space of sociotechnical possibility with the airless hegemony of a single bad idea that no one has the time or energy to fight, least of all the citizens whose lives will wind up conditioned by it. What he *does* deny is that the smart city concept (not the IoT, though the two are connected) makes any kind of sense. He takes it apart with the tools of urban planning. He does such a good job that that concept has become just... untouchable, for any self-respecting person. As far as I am concerned, what matters about his position is not whether it is old, but whether it is right, and I believe it is. I am not even making only an academic point. I am being pragmatic, just like you say, because facts are unyielding, and a big weapon to fight the smart city ideology is that, in practice, it does not work. This is why, in this debate here, I am looking for technological facts to buttress visions and political positions. Pushing a vision through is always hard (your document is a clear witness of this). Pushing it through _against the facts_ seems just too hard!" 5,54492,2019-06-04T09:21:28.921Z,10036,1,13,12,1,0,0,57.6,54221,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"Hi Alberto, good points! I am not really sure what you mean with your last paragraph. What 'facts' you are referring to. I am not so much interested if a position is old or new or 'right' (right for who?) but if it is relevant to our work here. Of c course if I see it as a football team I would want Adam or someone taking his position (and there are anon2373157426 a few anon1577251828 who have taken it anon2373157426 literally it seems) on the playing field. But only as 1 of the 11 positions, as our job is to build an inclusive zone for our client, the European taxpayer. But indeed yes, very good discussion, definitely a workshop that I think anon1577251828 can set up in Brussels, I will most certainly join!" 6,54684,2019-06-07T11:55:03.143Z,10036,2,11,10,1,1,0,17.2,54492,anon3379761435,anon3554654177," [quote=""anon3554654177, post:5, topic:10036""] right for who? [/quote] ""Right"" in this context means what it means for climate change. The people who are acknowledge as knowing most about this particular set of issue all agree on the basic facts: climate change is happening, and it is caused by human activity. Debate over. For the smart city it is the same: it is Le Corbusier 2.0, and that position has no intellectual currency anymore. Debate also over. [quote=""anon3554654177, post:5, topic:10036""] But only as 1 of the 11 positions, as our job is to build an inclusive zone for our client, the European taxpayer. But indeed yes, very good discussion, definitely a workshop that I think anon1577251828 can set up in Brussels, I will most certainly join! [/quote] Agreed. But, what workshop are we talking about?" 7,54697,2019-06-07T14:26:20.424Z,10036,2,12,11,1,0,0,17.4,54684,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,One that you will set up? 8,54698,2019-06-07T14:28:08.548Z,10036,1,12,11,1,0,0,12.4,54684,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,"Debate over. Interesting. So you are ""right"" (which I dispute as our discussion on AG has in know way relations on any level to global warming or heating) and declare debate over? anon2373157426 a decentralized approach!" 9,54705,2019-06-07T17:03:22.618Z,10036,2,13,12,1,2,0,32.6,54698,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"[quote=""anon3554654177, post:8, topic:10036""] So you are “right” (which I dispute as our discussion on AG has in know way relations on any level to global warming or heating) and declare debate over [/quote] Not me. But Greenfield, yes. One section of _Against the smart city_ is titled (emphasis mine) > _13 | The smart city replicates in anon2863106368e, tenor, form and substance most if not all of the **blunders** we associate with the **discredited** high-modernist urban planning techniques of the twentieth century._ He can say that, without his position necessarily implying an act of intellectual arrogance. This is because actually, science *does* run a decentralized approach. Anyone can dispute anyone else; scientific consensus forms when authoritative authors all (or close enough) agree. Authoritative authors are those who are quoted by other authors, who are themselves authoritative. Yes, it is recursive, but the recursion can be handled mathematically by the [Perron-Frobenius theorem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perron%E2%80%93Frobenius_theorem). Science is an ""eigendemocracy"". I quoted climate change, because the same eigendemocratic process invoked by Greenfield against the smart city powers the claims of climate scientists when they say that the debate on human-fueled climate change is conclusive, or at least as conclusive as it gets in science. [quote=""anon3554654177, post:7, topic:10036, full:true""] One that you will set up? [/quote] We could think of setting it up together? Let's talk!" 10,54707,2019-06-07T18:03:44.189Z,10036,0,13,12,1,0,0,22.6,54705,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,Great! Calling you next week. Have a good weekend! 11,54727,2019-06-08T09:09:24.207Z,10036,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,54697,anon3828707713,anon3554654177,Getting the Jedi on :grin: 12,54728,2019-06-08T09:10:53.143Z,10036,0,12,11,1,0,0,22.4,54705,anon3828707713,anon3379761435,"If you do, dont forget to ping @anon2945747231 and @anon850704935 for comms support." 1,54256,2019-05-30T18:40:21.883Z,10041,1,26,25,11,0,0,245.2,54256,anon3778288340,anon3778288340,"Hello Edgeryders community! I am so glad to have found you. I was sent a link to your call to action on the Fellowship application on a day or so ago so I apologise firstly for the late submission and secondly for the long post. Although it’s late I still feel it’s important to post this and become a member of your community. I also hope that any conversations continue and won’t stop on the deadline today though if they do I look forward to discovering more about the community and I’m looking forward to engaging in other conversations too. Innovation and technology progression usually means bigger is better but bigger also comes with greater energy demands So anon2696444391 are we as humans expected to survive in a world already suffering from the demands on its finite resources? The impact to the planet is also causing a greater intolerance to our neighbours. We find ourselves amidst increasing far-right views driven by fear of an uncertain future that is dependent on our precious dwindling resources. In my opinion the two real threats to humanity are our **disregard for the environment** and our **disregard for each other**. Most individuals wouldn’t argue this yet help isn’t coming from the places that could make the most difference. For example, The UK Government want the shiny new technologies - they think 5G, AI and blockchain will secure an economy by attracting global industry to UK shores but it’s a misconception that this will solve any problems, all it does is create more. They’re sold the ideas from capitalist machinery that operates without any regards for humanity, and they don’t have the means or will to challenge what they are being sold. They don’t want to think differently, they want to be told anon2696444391 to think. The world is being nurtured on capitalist values; scaling vertically, making things bigger can only result in a survival of the fittest or a type of natural selection where those creating these changes consider themselves to be the fittest. The help isn’t coming from those who could help the most and it won’t. It’s up to us. We need to do more with less and we need to innovate to do this. We need to challenge the general material and consumer driven values and demonstrate that the likes of health, community and purpose have more meaning and reward. Because I have worked at the level of very overarching questions I need to be careful not to just reframe the question of anon2696444391 we make a more human-centric internet. If I try to be more specific I would frame this as: What technology innovations (infrastructure/hardware/software) could be invested in to ensure that we reduce the demands on natural resources to sustainable levels whilst we enable humanity to thrive and live harmoniously alongside each other? And anon2696444391 do we make whatever solution so attractive that it is readily adopted by society at scale? Maybe this question is too broad - a rather random set of considerations include: cheap to build low-powered devices and networks, technology that lasts many years rather than just a few, tech investment decisions based on human-centric standards, personal data pods and distributed applications, cooperatives, skills trades, collective action and intelligence, altering value systems, building sustainable local communities. I propose to work with a team to explore this question in detail or to join in with a team who are already exploring elements of this. The work may be to bring together disparate work into a consolidated package and to design an attractive and scalable product that could be readily adopted by society and easily incorporated into peoples lives. For me the fellowship would integrate me into a community that appears to be directly addressing the concerns I’ve been trying to address in the wrong places. The financial element would allow me to dedicate time to the questions that this campaign has raised. I’m on a sabbatical from the UK Government, I feel like a student at the moment - the intention is to find the communities, movements and causes that can I fully get behind and collaborate with on this type of work." 2,54353,2019-06-01T06:26:59.835Z,10041,1,18,17,1,1,0,13.6,54256,anon3379761435,anon3778288340,"Hello @anon3778288340, nice to meet you. You seem to be thinking at a high level, that of value theory: [quote=""anon3778288340, post:1, topic:10041""] We need to challenge the general material and consumer driven values and demonstrate that the likes of health, community and purpose have more meaning and reward. [/quote] Last year, I took great intellectual pleasure in Mariana Mazzucato's *[The Value of Everything](https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/mariana-mazzucato/the-value-of-everything/9781610396752/)*. Through an historical account of value theory and anon2696444391 we do national accounting, she drives home one point: value is a societal choice, and a very political one. At different points in time, the same activity was considered to produce value or not, depending on the ideology of the time. Value theory can get fairly metaphysical, and one is reminded of medieval scholars debating on anon2696444391 many angels can dance on a pin. With a major difference: value theory drives the world. Once we have decided something has value, then we throw the full weight of human resources and anon2945747231nuity to borrow, beg, steal or even produce it. We might hold heterodox value theories, and many here do. Me, I am very interested in anon2696444391 such theories are encoded into technological artifacts. What are your views here? You say you want to build ""an attractive and scalable product that could be readily adopted by society and easily incorporated into peoples lives"". This also what normal-capitalist tech companies want. I imagine your product will be different, and I mean _technically_ different, as it embodies a different world view. But in what way?" 3,54434,2019-06-03T12:55:07.362Z,10041,3,18,17,1,1,0,38.6,54353,anon3778288340,anon3379761435,"Hi @anon3379761435 thanks for replying to me. I will take a look at the book, it sounds interesting and might help me understand these points a bit more. [quote=""anon3379761435, post:2, topic:10041""] At different points in time, the same activity was considered to produce value or not, depending on the ideology of the time. [/quote] A question I'd have whilst reading it is anon2696444391 do ""ideologies of the time"" get set? I'm going to assume predominantly through advertising, media and political events in current times - which are all generally encoded with capitalist values - making people want certain things and then things being designed to meet what people want. That feels cyclic and I wonder if the book suggests anon2696444391 to disrupt it? I once got into an debate with a doctor at Microsoft (Ireland) who during it warned me I was ""thinking pseudo-philosophical thoughts"" about the value to the world of our work there and anon2696444391 we were conducting business with others. I left there pretty quickly after that but I've been considering this question now for over 20 years - what value to the world does my work-effort/life contribute towards? I'm avoiding the depths or heights of the meta and keeping it as practical as possible and have worked for those organisations (BBC, UK Civil Service) where I assumed I'd find aligned values. Although good work has been done, I'm still searching. What I haven't done much of is think about other people's value theories and _anon2696444391_ they are embodied within the technology. I like your question: [quote=""anon3379761435, post:2, topic:10041""] We might hold heterodox value theories, and many here do. Me, I am very interested in anon2696444391 such theories are encoded into technological artifacts. What are your views here? [/quote] I have thought about your question all morning now and talked myself around anon2373157426 a few twists and turns and sometimes they've put a different meaning to your question... An overly simple answer is that I think it has to be by design and through compromise. I go back to my view of it also being cyclic and a need to break that cycle someanon2696444391. A chicken and egg situation - analogous to capitalism and people. Did the people want the consumer goods or was it the consumer goods that made the people want them? I've a photo here I took at a service station a couple of years ago: This was a busy weekend in summer along a major motorway in the UK. What struck me here was the first fast food place, [tossed](https://tosseduk.com/our-food/), had menu was very different to that which is expected of the motorway fast food chain. Personally I dread the service station and only really pop in for the toilets but this place actually had food I would eat. Sure there was still a bit of plastic and convenience but generally the food options were healthy and appetising (to me) and had been ethically sourced. The reason I took the photo is probably obvious to most of us here. Why was this more healthy and more ethical fast food place not more popular? It looked funky, pink is hard to miss, it was the first and most prominent food place as you entered the building, it had a big sign and the food on display looked good. Yet it was empty, and I was the only customer there for a good while. The neighbouring options were packed. The burgers and chicken places had queues that backed up anon2373157426 some way. I really did find this difficult to understand - my own value system programmed to avoid those places - So I posted the photo on social media asking others what they made of it. The main answer I received: _It's what the people want._ But I'm not so sure. I'm under the impression it's more like: it's what the people are told they want. They probably wanted something: tasty, quick and cheap to satisfy their hunger and they could have got that from the first place just as much as anywhere else. So what else was it that the people wanted? Did they _really_ want: the grease dripping down their chins clogging up their arteries, eating animals that have been intensively reared in inhumane conditions, paying companies that encroach on natural habitats and cultures, who avoid tax and litter the countryside and seas with their rubbish? I'm sure if they were asked directly they'd say no. So I just don't understand the influences and value theories at play here but feel it must be due to the people being misguided/told/sold an idea in some way... Another example: If somebody had said just a few years ago: > I'm going to bug people's houses with listening devices for my own commercial (and political) gain and what's more they're going to PAY me to do it! haha! We would have laughed. But apparently the people want to ask what the weather is, to be told a joke, to have a voice from thin air in their house respond to their questions and consumer needs. The implications which when logically argued surely outweigh the benefits so what value theories are at play here and anon2696444391 are they formed - within the technology/product and/or within the people. I would really be keen to explore this more - can you tell me more about your specific interest in encoding value theories into technological artefacts? [quote=""anon3379761435, post:2, topic:10041""] You say you want to build “an attractive and scalable product that could be readily adopted by society and easily incorporated into peoples lives”. This also what normal-capitalist tech companies want. [/quote] What I am suggesting here is that we need to tap into this psychology in some way. We need to be able to use the capitalist approach of telling people what they want but based on our more heterodox value systems that benefit humanity. [I wrote about this here where I use successful quaker businesses such as the UK chocolate industry as examples of anon2696444391 it might be done](https://medium.com/@anon [quote=""anon3379761435, post:2, topic:10041""] I imagine your product will be different, and I mean *technically* different, as it embodies a different world view. But in what way? [/quote] This is where I come to what I consider the 2 biggest threats to humanity. 1) the environment, 2) our intolerance for each other. And the question - what technologies can help here? I think it's about 1) downsizing so we can do more with less for longer and 2) altering value systems by moving people away from valuing personal instant gratification and competition with our neighbours to more rooted longer-term purpose and meaning through being valued and needed by our neighbours for our complimenting skills. Maybe this is along the lines of eco-villages and the technologies that can enhance and support those principles - maybe it is to start to identify opportunities to weave those kind of principles into society as it currently stands rather than create a new eco-village environments from scratch. I could start listing out things but I'd rather find a group to work on this with in a structured way. Maybe, if this chimes with your own interests Alberto we could work on it together in some way? You're the only one to respond to my post so thank you - I wonder in light of this conversation if others would be interested to join in on this thinking too? Also, if you or anyone knows of other projects or work that is looking at this maybe you could point me to it and I would be very happy to join in there too." 4,54444,2019-06-03T13:53:09.058Z,10041,0,17,16,1,1,0,8.4,54434,anon3379761435,anon3778288340,"[quote=""anon3778288340, post:3, topic:10041""] I’m going to assume predominantly through advertising, media and political events in current times - which are all generally encoded with capitalist values - making people want certain things and then things being designed to meet what people want. [/quote] Partially. The first documented such change goes from physiocratic thinking in the late 17th century (only agriculture creates value) to _The wealth of nations_ in 1780 (manufacturing creates value, too). No advertising, primitive media, VERY primitive capitalism. Political events, yes. I imagine they shaped ideology someanon2696444391." 5,54462,2019-06-03T18:41:25.083Z,10041,1,16,15,1,0,0,13.2,54434,anon1032047132,anon3778288340,"Relatively soon, I will be posting about the Planetmakers Platform which is a project attempting to address both the threats you (and I and many others) are concerned about." 6,54486,2019-06-04T08:19:31.707Z,10041,1,15,14,1,1,0,58.0,54434,anon3379761435,anon3778288340,"[quote=""anon3778288340, post:3, topic:10041""] Maybe this is along the lines of eco-villages and the technologies that can enhance and support those principles - maybe it is to start to identify opportunities to weave those kind of principles into society as it currently stands rather than create a new eco-village environments from scratch. [/quote] Maybe I need to be more specific here. I was thinking of fairly concrete technical choices. A good example is anon2696444391 the Scuttlebutt community deprioritized support for multiple device accounts. Why? Because it's a first world problem. ""First world techies"" with multiple devices are not the demographics SSB is meant to serve. The whole story, as I understand it, is [here](/t/9569?u=anon3379761435). The take home point is: [quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:9569""] The builders of Scuttlebutt **started from the sort of human community they wanted to build** : open to the underprivileged, solving basic social connectivity problems while staying away from surveillance capitalism, etc., *and on those basis they are making all their technical choices* , right down to the editor. As they do that, they discover and exploit sources of economic efficiency (“underprivileged audiences are less demanding, easier to serve with open source tech”). They ended up with a very different product from the ones they are seeking to replace, and with a *very* different community. Diaspora still feels Facebook-ish: Scuttlebutt feels completely different, to me at least. [/quote]" 7,54489,2019-06-04T08:35:59.292Z,10041,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,54462,anon3778288340,anon1032047132,"The name of your project/platform is very intriguing. If I were to guess and apply some of my own interests I imagine it's a platform for the maker movement to start to think about some of the technologies (sensor/IoT/automation etc) we would need within our environment (the planet) to sustain life. I'm probably off the mark here but it's something I'm also very interested in for the future and I'm[I created a scheme of work for students to do some of that type of thinking](http://www.adventurelabs.co.uk/2017/11/27/a-mission-working-towards-2050/). I'd be interested to hear more about Planetmaker Platform (chances are it's something totally different) Also @anon1032047132 I'd be really interested in chatting to you about reach and diversity - [I noticed you chatting about this elsewhere](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/brexit-minorities-and-populism-in-europe/10028), one thing I'd like to ensure with Adventure Labs is that it reaches the more hard to reach and underserved young adults in our society. Maybe we could chat about that (maybe on a different thread or channel)." 9,54723,2019-06-08T08:18:19.896Z,10041,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,54486,anon3778288340,anon3379761435,I just wanted to say @anon3379761435 that I am responding it's just taking a bit of time to write what I'm thinking and I'm snatching moments to do so ... hopefully I can post reply in a day or two. 10,54725,2019-06-08T08:25:03.176Z,10041,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,54723,anon3379761435,anon3778288340,"Wow, @anon3778288340, that's very considerate of you. No worries, Take your time!" 1,54214,2019-05-30T12:25:44.684Z,10035,1,15,14,2,0,0,18.0,54214,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"*In this short text I will argue that leadership needs to be tuned to the technological drivers that form the mental imaginaries that inform everyday life. As we find Internet of Things in all domains, health (BAN, body area network- wearables), home (LAN, Local Area Network - smart home), mobility (WAN, Wide Area Network – connected car) and city (VWAN, Very Wide Area Network- smart city) it is logical that we find the last remnants of illogical, erratic and highly emotional behavior in the only domain it has not yet reached (that is, in the West): politics. In short in Asia the engineers lead, in the West they do gadgets, applications and services, leaving the system to populists. Do we have spineless engineers, are they hiding deliberately or do they have no clue anon2696444391 to be a leader?* https://www.linkedin.com/post/edit/leadership-2017-engineers-doing-job-rob-van-kranenburg" 2,54719,2019-06-07T22:26:14.545Z,10035,0,6,5,1,1,0,6.2,54214,anon3203746736,anon3554654177,"[quote=""anon3554654177, post:1, topic:10035""] https://www.linkedin.com/post/edit/leadership-2017-engineers-doing-job-rob-van-kranenburg [/quote] Rob that link keeps redirecting me to a more blank page. It might be that someone who is not connected to you in LinkedIn can't see it.." 1,54672,2019-06-06T19:52:47.546Z,10096,0,12,11,22,0,0,127.4,54672,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"Thank you @anon2945747231 for sending me into the the weird part of the internet. Again. Apparently a Russian company called ""Boobs Dev"" (yes, seriously) has developed a game where players can... have sex with Stalin: _""It promises violence, nudity and blood, and users can use it as a tool for “revenge” or, should they wish, to “help the leader reach worldwide supremacy,” apparently by seducing him.""_
https://codastory.com/news/sex-with-stalin-game-russia
Meanwhile in China...

https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/03/china-smart-city-exposed" 2,54682,2019-06-07T11:49:33.697Z,10096,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,54672,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,"I don't know about Stalin, but the TechCrunch article... we always knew it was coming. We were just discussing Adam Greenfield's work on smart cities with @anon3554654177 (topic [here](/t/10036)). > The system also uses its facial recognition systems to detect ethnicities and labels them — such as “汉族” for Han Chinese, the main ethnic group of China — and also “维族” — or Uyghur Muslims, an ethnic minority under persecution by Beijing. > >Where ethnicities can help police identify suspects in an area even if they don’t have a name to match, the data can be used for abuse. It's remarkable that something with this level of delicacy was simply leaked into TechCrunch!" 3,54717,2019-06-07T22:17:54.319Z,10096,0,7,6,1,0,0,51.4,54672,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"Reminds me of this film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_the_Revolution_(1996_film)" 1,54545,2019-06-04T15:29:46.267Z,10074,0,14,13,8,0,0,42.8,54545,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"Just came across this creepy piece that surfaced some thoughts I have yet to structure into something coherent. Will share here when I manage to parse them into something intelligible. For now I wanted to share it here as well as a vice article that gives more context to it...
https://vimeo.com/337909277
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/evym4m/ai-told-me-human-face-neural-networks If you have any proto-thoughts or reflections feel free to share them, would be much appreciated help to get my own head around this....." 2,54664,2019-06-06T16:34:16.828Z,10074,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,54545,anon3203746736,anon3828707713," To me what is creepy is not so much watching a kind of time lapsed bit rot, but rather anon2696444391 it points to the reality we are entering where it will become increasingly difficult to know what is real and what is true the things you see on your screen or hear or view in media." 1,54582,2019-06-05T12:06:29.229Z,10082,0,21,20,8,0,0,119.2,54582,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"Just saw this invitation from @anon re-posting here in case anyone is interested! ""What kinds of projects, domains, and ideas do you think the Turing Institute should be working more on? What would you work on if funding was no issue? ... Reply or drop me an email emalliaraki@anon About the Turing institute: https://www.turing.ac.uk/research/research-projects ping @anon1996966876 @anon659222949 @anon" 2,54617,2019-06-06T04:37:26.499Z,10082,0,17,16,1,0,0,8.4,54582,anon3086952555,anon3828707713,"Oh wow, this looks ace!" 1,54183,2019-05-29T20:16:21.703Z,10028,1,18,17,5,0,0,183.6,54183,anon2554792515,anon2554792515,"Dear all, Is this something EdgeRyders can help me with? Although an advisory, Brexshit was forced upon Brits and the EU as part of #AgendaEurope - white working class apathy, because of decades of neglect and underinvestment in poorer parts of the UK - and the fallacy of what has been termed as Schrodanon2945747231r's immigrant. Now Farage has gained a modicum of power, following the results of the EU elections, this is where #AgendaEurope starts to kick off. Farage has today announced he is in discussions with far-right groups in Germany and Italy, which will result in further marginalisation and discrimination against minority groups. For minorities in the UK, this means more hate crimes and, should the UK Electoral Commission allow Farage to go unchecked, a further reduction in rights - including repealing the Human Rights Act - and perhaps another Windrush scandal. How do we stop it? Well, I haz a cunning plan, which can be replicated elsewhere in Europe. As with the UK, some minority groups are less inclined to vote and be actively engaged in political discourse, so, the simple answer is to mobilise such groups. Hope Not Hate did so against Tommy Robinson in his campaign to become an MEP, and it worked. In UK cities such as Birmingham, Manchester, Leicester and large parts of London, minorities make up the deciding vote in all elections, but only if we turn out to vote. Take the upcoming London Mayoral election, for example, the Conservative party have put up a black candidate against the current, Muslim, Labour party Mayor. My question is anon2696444391 do we engage minority groups to stop the rise of the far-right, and what tools and resources are available for us to do so? Rgds, Jason" 2,54272,2019-05-30T21:36:36.379Z,10028,1,11,10,1,1,0,27.2,54183,anon3214242932,anon2554792515,"[quote=""anon2554792515, post:1, topic:10028""] My question is anon2696444391 do we engage minority groups [/quote] Very important question. My take: The most important thing to do is to actively seek these groups out, talk to them and engage with them, not online, but AFK and interview them about what you're interested in. Also, depending on their situation, it might not be the right timing for them to be on the frontline to stop the rise if the minorities are already exposed to hate crime in their everyday lives." 3,54297,2019-05-31T10:02:58.444Z,10028,0,11,10,1,0,0,82.2,54183,anon3828707713,anon2554792515,"Ahead of the european elections my Dad asked me who/what I would be voting for. He's very capable of processing vast amounts of complex information in multiple languages - even for him it was difficult to discern what the different political parties are about and the implications of voting for them. I told him I prioritise information politics in this round of elections. More specifically political representatives I can trust to fight against breaking net neutrality, against online surveillance and censorship and copyright. I pointed to our having to know what is happening in order to be able to defend our other rights. Connecting this to the implications of internet acces/access to information in the ongoing uprising against military dictatorship in Sudan ( see #sudanuprising on twitter). He *got* it immediately. I believe you need to find connections between what is happening in the society where people currently live, and the places where they have cultural or historical ties. The dynamics of divisiveness and authoritarianism are fairly similar I think and if described in terms that connect the issues and struggles. Making a more sopisticated/nuanced connection to anon2696444391 these ideologies affect geopolitics and the effect on people's everyday lives in both locations. Children of the diaspora are generally well equipped to do this. Especially if we are well connected with people of our generation that were born and raised ""back home"" as seen from our parents' perspectives. BUT, this is if we ourselves are engaged and informed. I feel an important challenge here is getting people to look beyond the rhetoric and really understanding the foundations of anon2696444391 society works in order to make wise decisions. And honestly, I think non-minority groups underestimate curiosity and willingness to learn amongst minority communities. Study circles, lectures, webinars etc.- easily accessible resources for about learning anon2696444391 ones societies work. They need not to be patronising and contents need to live up to standards of intellectual integrity. For me Sudan and Ethiopia are closer, but I have seen these dynamics play out in Sweden. @anon" 4,54357,2019-06-01T10:11:36.934Z,10028,0,4,3,0,1,0,0.8,54183,anon3379761435,anon2554792515,"[quote=""anon2554792515, post:1, topic:10028""] My question is anon2696444391 do we engage minority groups to stop the rise of the far-right, and what tools and resources are available for us to do so? [/quote] @anon294806887 should this be moved to the POPREBEL discussions?" 5,54447,2019-06-03T14:53:02.077Z,10028,1,11,10,1,1,0,87.2,54272,anon1032047132,anon3214242932,"[quote=""anon3214242932x, post:2, topic:10028""] Very important question. My take: The most important thing to do is to actively seek these groups out, talk to them and engage with them, not online, but AFK and interview them about what you’re interested in. Also, depending on their situation, it might not be the right timing for them to be on the frontline to stop the rise if the minorities are already exposed to hate crime in their everyday lives. [/quote] I can endorse this point from actual experience. At London Creative Labs, when we ran an inclusive work creation programme, we went out and met ""hard to reach"" groups where they are. We didn't use digital for our outreach. As a result, we massively outperformed both the public and private sector in our outreach to the target groups." 6,54458,2019-06-03T18:03:10.815Z,10028,2,10,9,1,0,0,32.0,54447,anon3828707713,anon1032047132,How did you start/who did you approach first in the places you went? 7,54459,2019-06-03T18:03:51.058Z,10028,0,10,9,1,0,0,22.0,54458,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,oh and hi and welcome @anon1032047132 :) 8,54463,2019-06-03T18:46:08.294Z,10028,1,10,9,1,0,0,87.0,54458,anon1032047132,anon3828707713,"Super short summary: 1) We spoke to people at Job Centres. 2) We posted leaflets on so-called ""sink"" estates (projects). 3) We ran recruitment events at community centres on estates and job centres. 4) We spoke to people in an authentic way coming from a strengths-based approach. There is no substitute for getting out there and meeting people face to face on the ground." 9,54464,2019-06-03T20:05:20.953Z,10028,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,54463,anon3828707713,anon1032047132,sounds legit :) Any surprises? 1,54117,2019-05-28T23:46:20.050Z,10023,1,20,19,30,0,0,294.0,54117,anon659222949,anon659222949,"![27|690x273](upload://rZGI4WKHytEGF6iTUts2OaBJPsA.png) *This post-modern blockchain find borrowed from the slides of [Sarah Friend](https://isthisa.com/), who held one of the best talks at DTN.* A panel ended the [DTN](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/data-terra-nemo-first-report-scuttlebutt/9928) conference I attended recently that really shone a light on an interesting balkanization that is going on in the open source software world right now. This panel, titled 'Problems in distributed systems we need to solve', took an interesting turn when the moderator asked a question about the 'blockchain space'. Data Terra Nemo is a conference on decentralized p2p technologies, and yet the word 'blockchain' was usually only mentioned as the butt of a joke. Some of the technologies discussed (like [Wireline](https://www.wireline.io) and [Circles](https://joincircles.net/)) use blockchain in their stack of technologies, but their creators both 'owned up to it' during their talks, being very aware of the status of the 'b-word'. Their jabs at the ""blockchain space"" were not very serious, but the jokes were telling. Basically, what has happened is this. As 'crypto' became a fad and a repeat of the dotcom crash, 20 years later, many people building decentralized technologies have seen their scene flood with money going to really bad ideas and sloppy technology. This has been particularly frustrating since there was never any money for any decentralized technologies before the blockchain bubble, and once it arrived, most of it went up in smoke with the core projects solving hard computing problems mostly going unfunded. One panelist summed it up as that the people in the decentralized p2p space felt they were working on hard and important problems, while the developers in the blockchain space were solving issues that were more trivial. There was also an anecdotal story on that the blockchain companies were starting to have problems hiring good developers, even when offering big paychecks because the social status of working in that space was so low among talented software engineers. At the same time, the influx of money into the crypto/blockchain space created a parallel culture, which has not only attracted golddiggers but anon2373157426 a lot of honest and talented people working on interesting ideas, and all of the panelists but one admitted to both having been funded by ""crypto money"" and many agreed that there were things to learn from ""the other side"". They also pointed to a few technological challenges that the blockchain-side was getting right, that they were not yet keeping up with. One panelist also made the comparison with the dotcom crash – most of it was garbage, but a few gems survived and had great success for decades to come. A few days later, I went to a [DGOV](https://dgov.foundation/) meetup organized by @anon3556768308. A group of very idealistically motivated people was sitting around a table in a humble office talking about anon2696444391 to bring the benefits of DAOs to the governance space. I gave a lightning talk on anon2696444391 there is a lot of amazing decentralized technology being developed outside of the blockchain space and decided to bring the full story from DTN under the 'don't shoot the messenger' principle. Their response was very earnest and humble, completely acknowledging the shortcomings of the blockchain space and that the enormous influx of cash had done harm to the community. And there is plenty of room in which to collaborate. Many of the ideas being built on blockchains would benefit greatly from being paired with technologies discussed at DTN. In fact, one such initiative is Wireline, who sponsored the DTN conference and gave an interesting demo on their platform for creating distributed p2p web applications. I think there might be an opportunity to do some good work here. There is still a lot of blockchain-money out there, and perhaps more importantly – that term has the eyes and ears of countless of people around the world. Those working for a human-centric internet should use this to their advantage. * First of all, policy-makers and investors need to broaden their perspective and look at the entire spectrum of distributed p2p technologies – no just the small subset that is blockchain. * Currently, the blockchain space is vastly more funded than the rest of the space. It might be in the interest of the big players in the blockchain space, who now have the ears and attention of their investors, to use some of that social capital to redirect attention towards a larger picture. * Blockchain influencers sit on a lot of attention capital which they could use to explain the wider implications of the decentralized p2p web to the public * Finally, those of us with a fanatic streak (I have been guilty of cursing the B-word myself in the past) might need to move past that into a more integrated perspective to start working together." 2,54119,2019-05-29T01:34:55.936Z,10023,1,18,17,1,0,0,73.6,54117,anon3203746736,anon659222949,"Fascinating. @anon1032047132 (who works at Holo), what is your take on this? I know that the EC has tasked the NGI Forward group to give blockchain an extra hard look. I wonder though, if they see it as ""settled"" technology so to speak, when it is evolving pretty fast still." 3,54174,2019-05-29T17:28:31.710Z,10023,1,16,15,1,0,0,58.2,54119,anon1032047132,anon3203746736,"So much I could say about this and I don't want to speak out of turn. There is a crypto boom which will inevitably be followed by a crypto bust. Holochain is not a blockchain project even though it offers many of the benefits of blockchain, the underlying P2P architecture and technology is derived from the Metacurrency Project which predates the crypto boom. I've spent my share of time working in decentralized p2p projects without any real funding (income) or organisational support, so I know where people are coming from on that score. I should add that I'm speaking in a personal capacity and not as a representative of Holo." 4,54175,2019-05-29T17:51:24.318Z,10023,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,54174,anon3203746736,anon1032047132," Understood. I look forward to seeing your perspective on any aspect of this field. Like so many of these technologies, something big happens that catches the publics fancy and much following comes after." 5,54321,2019-05-31T14:54:45.213Z,10023,1,14,13,1,1,0,72.8,54117,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"Fascinating post! [quote=""anon659222949, post:1, topic:10023""] As ‘crypto’ became a fad and a repeat of the dotcom crash, 20 years later, many people building decentralized technologies have seen their scene flood with money going to really bad ideas and sloppy technology. [...] There was also an anecdotal story on that the blockchain companies were starting to have problems hiring good developers, even when offering big paychecks because the social status of working in that space was so low among talented software engineers. [/quote] I am afraid I have seen some of this up close myself. Already, I think the NGI initiative has an opportunity to increase its own awareness of what is going on in the world of decentralized architectures. There is anon2373157426 some resentment going around: ""Why are you guys only funding blockchain stuff?"" I have heard at least a couple of people make an explicit ""bigger fool"" argument: ""Yeah, it's BS, but if it has 'blockchain' in it, maybe I can get to the next round of VC funding"". [quote=""anon659222949, post:1, topic:10023""] One panelist also made the comparison with the dotcom crash – most of it was garbage, but a few gems survived and had great success for decades to come. [/quote] Which is to say, there is no free lunch. *Nothing* replaces discernment and responsible choice. If you are the NGI, you do not get away with supporting technologies wholesale; you need to get in there, and really look at what people are doing, and support specific projects. Which ones? The ones that are best at encoding shared values into technical choices. A final note, as an economist and a quantitative social scientist. When building capacity in an economy, it is not important to support technologies: what you need to support is people and organizations, and better still _ecosystems_ of people and organizations. Once it has capacity, your ecosystem will then be able to ride successive technological waves. Bubbles are very bad for ecosystems, because they attract actors committed to keeping the bubble from bursting. So, when given the choice between different ecosystems, I would stay away from the overheated ones. The blockchain world, with all the hype and the emphasis on buying luxury cars (*cars*, for heaven's sake! How can anyone take seriously a claim to reform the system made by someone who likes to flaunt Lamborghinis?), has looked very much like a bubble for a few years now." 6,54327,2019-05-31T16:05:48.330Z,10023,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,54117,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"@anon659222949, this is good work. I have taken the liberty of promoting it to the Edgeryders blog. Can you make sure @anon" 7,54328,2019-05-31T16:10:33.863Z,10023,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,54327,anon659222949,anon3379761435,"Thanks. I have never talked to him, does he become aware of it by being tagged in whispers? I'll send a pm." 8,54329,2019-05-31T16:12:11.250Z,10023,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,54328,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"Not sure if whispers require admin status, and if he has it." 9,54330,2019-05-31T16:14:54.827Z,10023,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,54329,anon659222949,anon3379761435,"Wait, are we sure he is already hired? I haven't seen an announcement. Don't want to send him work unless he knows that he has the job?" 10,54331,2019-05-31T16:16:58.996Z,10023,0,4,3,0,0,0,45.8,54330,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"No, not sure. And of course, only after he has started." 11,54341,2019-05-31T19:38:32.583Z,10023,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,54321,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,">If you are the NGI, you do not get away with supporting technologies wholesale; you need to get in there, and really look at what people are doing, and support specific projects. Which ones? The ones that are best at encoding shared values into technical choices. Exactly so." 1,54268,2019-05-30T21:00:58.399Z,10042,0,13,12,2,0,0,57.6,54268,anon1052413600,anon1052413600,"In a scenery of big data when often loophole allowed **abuse** **of** **personal** **data** for commercial purpose, a multi device App to browse, build and manage a highly scalable and distributed p2p Common Data is smart thinking isn't it? Like in a living organism and/or a social space, data in this networking tool is thought to be semantic, atomic and both human-centric and common-centric. As resilient growing source for a Common AI, a further significant effect would be to include ethical Values in system logic and well actually, endless possibilities open up in front as we look at it, what do you guys reckon?" 2,54295,2019-05-31T09:41:20.496Z,10042,0,9,8,1,0,0,6.8,54268,anon3379761435,anon1052413600,"Hello @anon1052413600, and welcome. I confess I don't anon2373157426 understand what you are proposing (disclaimer: I am no computer scientist). What would the common database look like? Is there anything out there resembling it, at least in part?" 1,54209,2019-05-30T12:09:22.135Z,10032,0,11,10,3,0,0,17.2,54209,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"Join me for IoT Week in Aarhus. Digital Signatures for services (banking, payment, energy, education, care, mobility, connectivity…) and Digital Signatures for architectures (virtual and analogue enablers of connectivity) are defined by stakeholders that organize themselves, ICANN style, without any commercial intent to take profit elsewhere. They are a tool to complement current actions on procurement and local agency as in this kind of SLA it does not matter that the original data sets and analytical platforms are not under your control. In this manner local stakeholders are a priority part of building the next layer of value, naming the new entities that are formed when AI inspired intelligence starts to see patterns unrecognizable before. In order to create open service creation platforms (for example take the learnings with you in/of a connected car), free flow of data is not enough. In line with the @anon This session will then be about co-creating procedures for building Digital Signatures for Marketplaces. Marketplace are instrumental for new data-driven business models. We assume Open Marketplaces will benefit from network effects. https://sites.grenadine.co/sites/iot/en/aarhus-2019/schedule/3503/Discussing%20Next%20Generation%20Internet%20Technology%20and%20Policy%20Workshop%20(session%20II)" 2,54259,2019-05-30T20:18:57.815Z,10032,2,10,9,1,0,0,17.0,54209,anon3214242932,anon3554654177,These Digital Signatures - do they allow for anonymity? As I understand it they can be temporary identities? 4,54263,2019-05-30T20:44:21.000Z,10032,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,54259,anon3554654177,anon3214242932,"Yes, the idea is federated and attribute based only. You can have thousands of ‘identities’, only ‘event identities, basically never exposing yourself as your ‘full set of properties’ (sorry for this engineering type of talking about people of flesh and blood and dreams and hope. The key lies in looking at all the competion now on the passport Sovrin, ID2020, Uport/ioT-A, WIN and getting grip on the ’source’. If the ’state’ as it is currently is the ’source’ we drag a lot of dependencies into a new ontology. Accountability is what I prefer over ‘anonymity’. I like to know who I am dealing with. Tokenized trust is what we well build but that can only be real in localities, in potential encounters with people. Christian Nold and I wrote about a kind of local IoT structure a while ago. We were called naive back then, now I think it can be anon2373157426 mundane. Christian and me are having a informal meeting about that at UCL next Wednesday. I will send notes here. [http://www.situatedtechnologies.net/?q=node/108](http://www.situatedtechnologies.net/?q=node/108) It is a free book, like all my texts." 5,54269,2019-05-30T20:59:33.000Z,10032,0,8,7,1,0,0,51.6,54259,anon3554654177,anon3214242932,"Just like anon1577251828 aim: emphasizing that people from all walks of life have to be at the table when we talk about alternate possibilities for ubiquitous computing. As you can see what is called IoT now was called ubicomp, pervasive computing, calm tech, ambient intelligence from the 70s" 1,54211,2019-05-30T12:14:00.509Z,10034,1,17,16,4,0,0,118.4,54211,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"Hi all Decode project worker Ola Bini is detained in Ecuador. https://twitter.com/olabini?lang=en It can help to once in a while check #freeolabini once in a while and retweet, Greetings, Rob" 2,54223,2019-05-30T13:29:58.332Z,10034,0,16,15,1,1,0,8.2,54211,anon659222949,anon3554654177,"[quote=""anon3554654177, post:1, topic:10034""] It can help to once in a while check #freeolabini once in a while and retweet, [/quote] It's a very hairy issue indeed. His detainment is (according to my sources at least) probably a tangled up mix of international and local Ecuadorian politics, so Ola might have more luck with the changes of political winds. Next elections are not until 2021, so lets hope the campaign can put on some pressure." 1,54086,2019-05-28T14:42:29.182Z,10018,1,19,18,3,0,0,70.8,54086,anon3554654177,anon3554654177,"OPEN INVITATION: HOW CAN WE BRING A REALISTIC POSITIVE STORY THAT ACCEPTS THAT TECHNO-POLITICAL INFLUENCE AND AGENCY/POWER IS ALREADY HERE? RSVP me at kranenbu@anon TF2 Entitlements, UCL London, 05 06 2019 05 June 2019 1:00 pm 3:30 pm Darwin Building B05, Darwin Building, UCL Our objective is to brainstorm on anon2696444391 to bring citizens into the scenario of a pragmatic cybernetics that is outlined below. How can we bring a realistic positive story that accepts that techno-political influence and agency/power is already here, and needs to be debated with new terms and concepts? What language, visuals, channels and ‘politics’ is needed?" 2,54150,2019-05-29T13:40:57.326Z,10018,1,17,16,1,1,0,13.4,54086,anon3379761435,anon3554654177,"[quote=""anon3554654177, post:1, topic:10018""] the scenario of a pragmatic cybernetics that is outlined below [/quote] Sounds interesting and edgy! But I guess that a link is missing from ""below""." 3,54167,2019-05-29T16:07:28.832Z,10018,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,54150,anon3554654177,anon3379761435,Indeed. Here it is https://www.theinternetofthings.eu/open-invitation-anon2696444391-can-we-bring-realistic-positive-story-accepts-techno-political-influence-and 1,53749,2019-05-22T12:15:51.800Z,9950,0,18,17,28,0,0,218.6,53749,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Mehr als 3,3 Mio mal wurde das "Die Zerstörung der CDU" Video von Youtuber Rezo bereits angeschaut und Petitionen es im öffentlich rechtlichen Rundfunk abzuspielen wurden bereits gestartet. Vor allem junge Menschen reagieren mit anon2071999133kbarkeit und Interesse auf das Video und teilen es mit Freunden und Familienmitgliedern um Diskussionen zu starten und Informationen zu verbreiten und der Aufruf zur EU-Wahl am Ende ist fraglos relevant. Das verlinken und beanon2863106368en der Referenzen ist ein wichtiges Feature das die argumentativen Effekt des Videos in Kombination mit dem sehr persönlichen Ton bestimmt. Wir würden hier nun gerne nicht nur nach deiner Meinung zu dem Video und den darin angesprochenen Themen fragen, sondern auch nach Links, Referenzen, Material und Beschreibungen von Projekten, real und spekulativ, die die die genannten Probleme angehen und vielleicht lösen können, damit die Welt eben nicht vor die Hunde geht und wir einen konstruktiven Ansatz finden um die Zukunft zu entwickeln. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y1lZQsyuSQ Nimm zum Beispiel einen Timestamp, Clip oder Referenz aus dem Video und füge deine Projektidee oder ein Projekt von dem du weißt an und verlinke es hier, oder schreibe ein Kommentar hier und beschreibe es. WAS HILFT GEGEN DIE ZERSTÖRUNG FÜR DIE ZUKUNFT? * Wählen zum Beispiel, aber das allein reicht noch nicht. * Informieren auch, aber wieder, das allein auch nicht, also was für Projekte helfen oder könnten helfen? Und wer macht sie oder will sie machen?" 2,53750,2019-05-22T12:26:58.802Z,9950,0,16,15,1,0,0,53.2,53749,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Here the translation: The "The Destruction of the CDU" video by youtuber Rezo has been viewed more than 3.3 mio times at this point and a petition to sanon2696444391 it in German public TV has already been started. Especially young people reacted with interest and thankfulness to the video and shared it with friends and family to start discussions and share information. The reference and research links are an important feature of the video which, in combination with the very personal anon2863106368e lend to its argumentative power. We want to ask here not only for your opinion on the video and the topics it covers, but also for links and references for Projects, real and speculative, tackling those problems to ensure that the world won't blow up after all and to develop konstructive solutions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y1lZQsyuSQ You could for example take a Timestamp or clip from the video or one of the references and follow it up with your own project or projects you know of and link them here or write a comment and describe it here. WHAT HELPS AGAINST THE DESTRUKTION AND DEVELOPS THE FUTURE? -Voting for example, but that on its own is not enough -Informing others helps as well, but that that on its own is not enough, so, which project help or could help? and who is or want to do them?" 3,53751,2019-05-22T12:36:17.483Z,9950,0,13,12,1,0,0,52.6,53749,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"**Und da die CDU die hier so massive kritisiert wird auch schon mal gerne als "Rentnerpartei" beschrieben wird, und zwar weil viele ihrer Positionen und ihr auftreten gerade der älteren und Rentnergeneration zu dienen scheinen (in wie fern auch das der fall ist sei dahanon2945747231stellt) und diese ihre Kernwählerschaft ist, während die Renten der Zukunft zunehmend unsicher wurden unter der Regierung einer Partei die einst mit dem Slogan "Die Rente ist sicher" in den Wahlkampf zog ist empfehle ich diese Geschichte hier als inspirations Lektüre:* https://anon1577251828.eu/t/herzlich-willkommen-zur-rente/9949" 4,53935,2019-05-24T15:58:39.550Z,9950,1,12,11,1,0,0,57.4,53749,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"Nice follow-up video from 2 hours ago, with many of the German YouTubers collaborating with Rezo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpg84NjCr9c (No English subtitles yet, but the non-German folks can copy&paste the video's text from the description into a translator.)" 5,54101,2019-05-28T18:40:19.381Z,9950,0,11,10,1,0,0,157.2,53935,anon3197437925,anon3197437925,"The funniest part just happened :smile: Seemingly as a reaction to Rezo's vide, the CDU plans to hold their next party internal meeting around the topic of ""asymmetric electoral campaign fighting"" (German: ""asymmetrische Wahlkampfführung""). In German, the expression has the same strong connotation to asymmetric warfare and terrorism as in English. And [the invitation for that meeting came in _by fax_](https://twitter.com/robinalexander_/status/1133268983883411457). Everyone is entitled to their political opinions of course. The real-life absurdity here is really funny in any case. It illustrates a stark difference between the generations regarding technology use and communication culture." 1,53598,2019-05-17T00:38:19.301Z,9920,0,34,33,80,0,0,601.8,53598,anon3048848105,anon3048848105,"Today we rely on very few sources for discovering the information we want and need, mostly having it fed to us by Google and Facebook. I have long been fascinated by anon2696444391 to solve this, and have currently come to the conclusion that part of the blame lands on longstanding browser UI design. If the browser asks users to select a single search engine or a single homepage (or use the default), people will come to use that webservice for everything. And those services will try to address every use case rather than shine at particular ones. To explore this I have created my own (WebKitGTK-based) web browser ""[Odysseus](https://odysseus.adrian.geek.nz/)"" and have published it to the [elementary](https://elementary.io/) [AppCenter](https://appcenter.elementary.io/com.github.anon3048848105.odysseus/) (though I will soon be deploying to other distros as well). I very comfortably use it as my primary browser, and I'm aware of others happily using it as well. But let me describe why I find it's features so valuable to illustrate my thinking: **Top Sites** I'm worried about people coming to rely on their homepage for most of their discovery, so I don't want to have a single one. Google Chrome's (or is it Opera's) concept of ""top sites"" provides one way for multiple sites to share that prime realestate in the form of links. Though at the request of others I plan to try another approach as well where people can set multiple homepages for the browser to choose at random for each new tab. **Web Feeds** I really don't like the alternatives to this early Web technology. I don't want people to waste their time reloading specific websites, and nor do I want that to be solved by having all updates routed through a centralized service. That would just defeat any decentralization the Web has left! Webfeeds allow a client application to load updates from all registered websites and merge them clientside into a single list, fully under the users control. Getting away from the AI-curated timelines of Facebook, et al. And they are useful to web developers to split and combine these datastreams anon2696444391ever they want. **App Recommendations** Like other browsers Odysseus will open non-HTML and -HTTP links in other apps already installed on your computer, and it sends webfeeds to native apps as well for subscription. This is vital because without that central servers delivering code, native apps have more freedom to be peer-to-peer. And browsers should have the freedom to focus on rich text rather than being a virtual machine for networked apps. To help the adoption of those apps Odysseus takes it one step further than other browsers: if you do not have a compatible app installed it will recommend some to you from your package repository. This currently works on any AppStream compatible distro. **To Be Done** **Personalized Suggestions** We currently go to sites like YouTube when you want to idle away our time, but those sites do not necessarily have our best interests at heart when building their AIs. At the very least they want to keep us on their site. We need something more decentralized we can trust. These technologies ask the question ""what pages are related to those I've visited?"" I plan to answer this with ""What did they link to?"" That is I plan to echo back the unvisited links you encounter online as personalized recommendations. This sort of technique may also be useful for exploring problem areas, more professionally. **Bookmarks & Bookmark Sharing** The common wisdom I see is that people don't use bookmark managers and instead find it easier to search for it again from Google. From a privacy and network efficiency perspective this is a big usability fail. For this reason I'm planning on basing my bookmarking system exclusively on tagging, and to allow webpages to offer some default tags to organize themselves under. Ideally making the process a single click and review to bookmark, and a single addressbar search to retrieve. Furthermore since your friends and family are your best sources of links, and to aid people in helping others to discover the pages they've found useful/enjoyable I plan provide tools to share subsets of your bookmarks. **Combined Search** I mentioned above that I think it's a huge problem that browsers make it significantly easier to use the ""default search engine"" than any others. To address this I plan to make it trivial to register multiple search engines and search accross all of them simultaneously, possibly filtered by some tags. At least in the geospatial profession (and Searx) there's good support for this in the form of the OpenSearch standard, but I will need fallback logic to work with the dominant search engines of today. --- I'm keen to hear what all of you are working on, and possibly anon2696444391 my efforts can help with that." 2,53599,2019-05-17T00:52:13.871Z,9920,1,32,31,2,0,0,21.4,53598,anon3048848105,anon3048848105,"As for who am I, my name is Adrian Cochrane. I live in New Zealand. I'm starting a software/open-standards contracting company with my father, after having graduated from Victoria University of Wellinganon2863106368 with a BSc Computer Science. I really value software freedom and privacy, and hope to do my small part in bringing it further forward. Climate change is the other main issue I care about." 3,53606,2019-05-17T06:55:18.207Z,9920,1,32,31,1,0,0,31.4,53599,anon2197402769,anon3048848105,Probably you want to include links in the original post: https://github.com/anon3048848105/Odysseus (browser home) and https://elementary.io/ (OS home). 4,53619,2019-05-17T09:22:03.180Z,9920,0,31,30,1,0,0,11.2,53606,anon3048848105,anon2197402769,"Yup, and it's got a website too at https://odysseus.adrian.geek.nz" 5,53631,2019-05-17T14:13:32.683Z,9920,1,27,26,14,0,0,155.4,53598,anon3379761435,anon3048848105,"Welcome @anon3048848105, and thanks for sharing this. It is anon2373157426 an achievement. My name is Alberto, I am one of the old hands on Edgeryders. I am an economist: if you discount some basic programming for data analysis, I am anon2373157426 far removed from ICT. So, what strikes me most from Odysseus is that it is part of an ecosystem different from the one I live in (Mac OSX + Firefox + several ad blockers), *which I had no idea was out there*. Odysseus works with Elementary OS, and it's available from its AppCenter. It (like, one presumes, Elementary itself) was based on the [ethical design manifesto](https://2017.ind.ie/ethical-design/) – and that, for me, was what really hit home. The more I hang around the hacker community, the more I think that most of what Europe needs to build a human-centric Internet is already out there. There is a large, diverse, investment-ready portfolio of technologies, companies and NGOs, standards and principles (like ethical design itself) and, most importantly, people. If the EU were to put some of its considerable firepower behind them, we might actually get somewhere in a relatively short time! " 6,53641,2019-05-17T22:07:16.026Z,9920,0,20,19,1,0,0,114.0,53631,anon3048848105,anon3379761435,"elementary OS actually predates The Ethical Design Manifesto, but it describes what we do very well. It's actually a fascinating story behind elementary OS, one of people getting inspired by the work that came before them and taking it further. It started with an artist creating an icon theme! And yes there's a remarkable number of people around the world who are actively working to address these issues. We are often lacking funding, marketting, and sometimes UI design skills, but it's getting better and I think that just goes to sanon2696444391 anon2696444391 deeply we value it." 7,53694,2019-05-20T20:34:33.315Z,9920,2,18,17,1,0,0,93.6,53598,anon3203746736,anon3048848105,"This story is about IndieWeb, but really it is about efforts like yours. https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/can-indie-social-media-save-us ""When social-media servers aren’t controlled by a small number of massive public companies, the incentive to exploit users diminishes. The homegrown, community-oriented feel of the IndieWeb is superior to the vibe of anxious narcissism that’s degrading existing services. And, in a sense, decentralization also helps solve the problem of content moderation. One reason Mark Zuckerberg has called for the establishment of a third-party moderation organization is, presumably, that he’s realized anon2696444391 difficult it is to come up with a single set of guidelines capable of satisfying over a billion users; the IndieWeb would allow many different standards to emerge, trusting users to gravitate toward the ones that work for them. Decentralization still provides corners in which dark ideas can fester, but knowing that there’s a neo-Nazi Mastodon instance out there somewhere may be preferable to encountering neo-Nazis in your Twitter mentions. The Internet may work better when it’s spread out, as originally designed.""" 8,53699,2019-05-21T00:03:22.791Z,9920,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,53694,anon3048848105,anon3203746736,"Thanks for the extra push to read that article, it's excellent! It's talking about very much the sort of things I want to encourage with my browser work." 9,53725,2019-05-21T13:51:02.714Z,9920,0,15,14,1,1,0,8.0,53694,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:7, topic:9920""] Decentralization still provides corners in which dark ideas can fester, but knowing that there’s a neo-Nazi Mastodon instance out there somewhere may be preferable to encountering neo-Nazis in your Twitter mentions. The Internet may work better when it’s spread out, as originally designed. [/quote] I like this quote very much, thanks @anon3203746736." 10,54014,2019-05-26T20:11:34.752Z,9920,2,15,14,1,0,0,78.0,53598,anon1593485621,anon3048848105,"This sounds like a wonderful Idea. I love the concept of decentralized discovery. I've been working on something very similar with novelty creation rather than classification in recommendation algorithms. I've been calling them Bubble Breaker Algorithms. I've got a working prototype and paper ready, perhaps this could be useful to you?" 11,54016,2019-05-26T20:40:43.630Z,9920,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,54014,anon3048848105,anon1593485621,"Yeah it could be! I'm just trying to figure out anon2696444391 your work would relate to mine. Would it be websites Odysseus could be configured to work with, built in to the browser, or what else?" 12,54017,2019-05-26T21:08:57.507Z,9920,2,15,14,1,0,0,18.0,54016,anon1593485621,anon3048848105,I'm honestly not sure lol. The two concepts just seem so similar there must be a way. Is there place in the browser for suggestion something? Perhaps other websites to visit based off past history? Or something like that? 13,54018,2019-05-26T21:12:02.238Z,9920,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,54017,anon3048848105,anon1593485621,"Yes, that's my next task to tackle! I'm looking at harvesting unvisited links you encounter to echo back as personalized recommendations. So maybe the answer is ""a bit of both""?" 14,54019,2019-05-27T03:41:07.294Z,9920,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,54017,anon3048848105,anon1593485621,Please share whatever you have when you feel comfortable! 15,54028,2019-05-27T10:06:01.096Z,9920,1,15,14,1,1,0,13.0,54014,anon3379761435,anon1593485621,"[quote=""anon1593485621, post:10, topic:9920""] I’ve been working on something very similar with novelty creation rather than classification in recommendation algorithms. I’ve been calling them Bubble Breaker Algorithms. I’ve got a working prototype and paper ready, perhaps this could be useful to you? [/quote] Hello @anon1593485621, this sounds really interesting. Could you say more about it?" 16,54045,2019-05-27T21:21:06.947Z,9920,0,14,13,1,0,0,7.8,54018,anon1593485621,anon3048848105,That's perfect! It'd be specific to the sort of data you're working with. I'd be extremely happy to talk it over with you. Message me and we can talk it over in greater detail if you're interested. 17,54046,2019-05-27T21:22:19.885Z,9920,0,14,13,1,0,0,52.8,54028,anon1593485621,anon3379761435,I'd be happy to post the preliminary paper. It needs some more work before I'm planning on submitting it but this might be a good place to get some feedback. Where would be a good place to do the posting? 18,54047,2019-05-27T22:09:31.177Z,9920,0,14,13,1,0,0,52.8,53598,anon3379761435,anon3048848105,"@anon1593485621 I think you could get the most results by doing this: post [here](/c/ioh/tell-your-story) a teaser, in which you explain the concept of Bubble Breaking and anon2696444391 you came to it. And then add the link to the preliminary paper, wherever you have it. This way, the reader can understand more or less what you are up to with a very small investment. If she likes the teaser, she can then up the game by reading the whole paper." 1,52348,2019-04-06T12:20:41.749Z,9705,0,78,77,214,0,0,1342.6,52348,anon659222949,anon659222949,"## Stockholm launch event How do we collaborate to build a human-centric next generation internet? You are invited to an alliance working towards this goal. Internet of Humans is a track within our annual Edgeryders festival. It is dedicated to bringing together existing projects into a demo of a Next Generation Internet that supports values of openness, cooperation across borders, decentralization, inclusiveness, and protection of privacy. At this event, we will be telling our stories and getting acquainted with the roadmap of the Internet of Humans project. Consider this an introduction to anon2696444391 you could fit into this story, and with whom you could collaborate. **Location:** House Blanon2066456771de, Södra Hamnvägen 9, Stockholm **Date:** Saturday 11th of May **Time:** 13.00-17.00 Internet of Humans is a gathering of contributors to the Next Generation Internet, a 3-year research project that engages hundreds of original initiatives. Edgeryders is a company living in symbiosis with an online community of thousands of hackers, activists, radical thinkers and doers, and just normal people that want to make a difference. We believe that a smart community outperforms any of its members; this is the result of people working together, improving on each other’s work. ## How to register Reply to this thread, saying that you want to attend. If you're new to Edgeryders, a short introduction is always welcome. We will keep you in the loop by posting updates here on the platform.

### How is this all financed? This event is part of the NGI Forward project Generation Internet (NGI) initiative, launched by the European Commission in the autumn of 2016. It has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 825652 from 2019-2021. You can learn more about the initiative and our involvement in it at [https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/) ![Ngi logo|150x61](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/ngi-logo.png) ![Eu emblem|150x100](https://ngi.anon1577251828.eu/assets/images/eu-emblem.png)" 2,52352,2019-04-06T13:38:25.135Z,9705,0,71,70,11,0,0,159.2,52348,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"I would like to come to this one, pending a check on my other May commitments. I do want to see Blanon2066456771de, and we also need to celebrate Edgeryders Nordic. This is just a note to @anon3828707713, @anon659222949 and myself." 3,52390,2019-04-09T09:05:17.498Z,9705,1,66,65,1,0,0,128.2,52348,anon1811177184,anon659222949,"Hi. I'd like to come to this – Developer/designer/activist working at [code and conspire](https://www.codeandconspire.com)" 4,52393,2019-04-09T09:22:17.334Z,9705,0,66,65,5,0,0,128.2,52348,anon1187869111,anon659222949,will be attending 5,52397,2019-04-09T12:05:14.335Z,9705,0,63,62,1,0,0,107.6,52348,anon4004532087,anon659222949,I'll gladly join :raised_hands: 6,52399,2019-04-09T12:09:40.808Z,9705,1,59,58,3,0,0,181.8,52348,anon1760588290,anon659222949,"I'll be there too. I am a Bitcoin veteran and IPFS, crypto and OpenTimestamps dabbler." 7,52401,2019-04-09T12:45:09.067Z,9705,1,55,54,1,0,0,111.0,52348,anon137241670,anon659222949,"Hi, My first post after some cumbersome signing in process. I intend to participate. Got message via Debian users Swedish." 8,52402,2019-04-09T12:52:48.338Z,9705,1,54,53,2,1,0,85.8,52401,anon659222949,anon137241670,"[quote=""anon137241670, post:7, topic:9705""] My first post after some cumbersome signing in process. [/quote] Hi! I'm sorry you found the registration cumbersome, but happy to have you attending. A part of our work in Edgeryders is academic research ([one example here](https://github.com/opencarecc/opencareProjectDeliverables/blob/master/WP2/D2.5%20Ethnographic%20report.pdf)), which requires us to have users go through a consent funnel. You're very welcome to Edgeryders. What stoked your interest in attending?" 9,52404,2019-04-09T12:57:52.878Z,9705,1,53,52,3,0,0,75.6,52390,anon659222949,anon1811177184,Hi @anon 10,52405,2019-04-09T12:59:08.215Z,9705,0,53,52,4,0,0,120.6,52402,anon3052267379,anon659222949,"(Did not anon2373157426 understand the credit card's question purpose during registration either, anyway...) I am interested but won't attend the Stockholm meeting, as I don't plan to travel from France. I would like to see minutes and be informed of the outcome of those discussions. Cheers!" 11,52415,2019-04-09T17:01:23.652Z,9705,0,54,53,1,0,0,105.8,52348,anon4205961763,anon659222949,I would love to attend! Im a UX designer based in Stockholm and got interested in this initiative which was mailed to me by the ”stupid hackaanon2863106368 community” - and would love to hear more about what it is and anon2696444391 I could contribute! 12,52426,2019-04-09T21:53:03.657Z,9705,1,51,50,1,0,0,125.2,52348,anon3005461236,anon659222949,"I will come IF I can. I'm a computer scientist and is tech lead for a large swedish HPC center in Södertälje, Open Source officer and active in a number of tech startups. I hope I can contribute alot." 13,52427,2019-04-09T22:05:02.457Z,9705,0,52,51,5,1,0,95.4,52426,anon659222949,anon3005461236,"[quote=""anon3005461236, post:12, topic:9705""] I will come IF I can. [/quote] Yes! I was going to invite you explicitly this week, and now you saw it before I even had to. Really hoping that you can make it." 14,52428,2019-04-10T06:04:15.839Z,9705,0,53,52,1,0,0,135.6,52348,anon1572937553,anon659222949,"Sign me up, I'll be there! I'm an entrepreneurial type with a tech/coding background and lots of food related stuff on my resume. I am currently working on a few different projects with the ambition to accelerate systems change. Some keywords: Regenerative food systems, [Holochain](https://holochain.org/), [ValueFlows](https://valueflo.ws/), platform cooperatives, distributed governance." 15,52430,2019-04-10T08:11:11.285Z,9705,0,50,49,1,0,0,15.0,52348,anon3828707713,anon659222949,Ok. Will check travel org 16,52436,2019-04-10T09:32:07.902Z,9705,1,50,49,3,0,0,135.0,52348,anon3930778105,anon659222949,"I'm planning to attend. I'm the project lead for cryptpad.fr, which recently won one of the NGI awards. I'm interested to meet the folks from Edgeryders, and anyone working on resilient or privacy-preserving technologies. Also, it seems like a great excuse to see a bit of Sweden!" 17,52445,2019-04-10T11:51:35.817Z,9705,1,50,49,2,0,0,115.0,52348,anon3304065438,anon659222949,"Hi, I am interested in going, though I have no idea if I can provide any kind of input. I am a particle physicist." 18,52452,2019-04-10T12:46:42.598Z,9705,1,51,50,2,1,0,85.2,52445,anon659222949,anon3304065438,"[quote=""anon3304065438, post:17, topic:9705""] Hi, I am interested in going, though I have no idea if I can provide any kind of input. [/quote] I you have a gut feeling of it being for you, it most likely is. What brings you to the topic? What are your thoughts about the current state and future of the internet?" 19,52454,2019-04-10T13:35:07.247Z,9705,0,48,47,2,0,0,124.6,52452,anon3304065438,anon659222949,"I got an invitation from Peder because I was at the stupid hackaanon2863106368, reading about it I am interested, I think this is the kind of discussion we should be having. So I'm in." 20,52456,2019-04-10T15:34:26.353Z,9705,1,47,46,3,0,0,134.4,52348,anon3629644873,anon659222949,"I'd love to attend, count me in. (I'm an ex-musician and ex-academic, nowadays self-proclaimed armchair anthropologist. Looking forward to meet and discuss with all the people here!)" 21,52468,2019-04-10T17:35:10.287Z,9705,1,49,48,2,1,0,24.8,52436,anon659222949,anon3930778105,"[quote=""anon3930778105, post:16, topic:9705""] I’m the project lead for [cryptpad.fr ](http://cryptpad.fr), which recently won one of the NGI awards. [/quote] How great! We've actually looked at Cryptpad in Edgeryders, I think @anon3379761435 found it?" 22,52469,2019-04-10T17:39:12.576Z,9705,0,48,47,1,0,0,59.6,52468,anon3379761435,anon659222949,Indeed. It [was discussed](http:///t/9422) at the Forward kickoff meeting. :slight_smile: Welcome! 23,52478,2019-04-10T21:50:21.359Z,9705,1,47,46,1,0,0,139.4,52348,anon275893000,anon659222949,"I'd like to participate, I am anon2696444391ever already part of an exhibition the same day so I may leave early as I distrust volunteers. https://anon4004532087johansson.se" 24,52479,2019-04-11T06:46:36.848Z,9705,0,44,43,1,0,0,13.8,52478,anon3828707713,anon275893000,:rofl: I feel you. 25,52501,2019-04-12T09:34:02.431Z,9705,0,45,44,1,0,0,74.0,52348,anon3828707713,anon659222949,"Guys I think this might be of interest for some of the people sanon2696444391ing up at the event: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/fellowships-with-bursaries-for-human-centric-internet-builders-deadline-may-30/9715 " 26,52520,2019-04-12T18:19:56.629Z,9705,1,44,43,10,0,0,243.8,52348,anon3556768308,anon659222949,"I am really hoping to attend, if I can make the travel to Stockholm work! I have previously introduced myself already, but I work at the intersection of decentralised governance and horizontal culture. I work with organisations and networks to help architect human, and technical, operating systems that work in a distributed, participatory way. I am a Member at [Enspiral](http://www.enspiral.com), Steward at [Going Horizontal](www.goinghorizontal.co), and Core Team at [DGOV Foundation for Distributed Governance](www.dgov.foundation). I also speak and advise on DAOs." 27,52530,2019-04-13T12:51:07.881Z,9705,0,41,40,3,0,0,23.2,52520,anon3379761435,anon3556768308,"Wow, added bonus. @anon3556768308, I think it was @anon" 28,52545,2019-04-14T10:32:51.635Z,9705,0,39,38,2,0,0,92.8,52348,anon2236365655,anon659222949,"I'll be there! This is me: [anon2236365655.se](http://anon2236365655.se)" 29,52553,2019-04-14T19:48:28.009Z,9705,0,38,37,2,0,0,62.6,52348,anon3449963673,anon659222949,Thanks a lot for the invite. I will sanon2696444391 up! /Åke http://anon3449963673ren.se 30,52567,2019-04-15T13:28:02.436Z,9705,0,41,40,32,0,0,228.2,52348,anon659222949,anon659222949,"Some more information about the event in Swedish. We would love some help to invite people that should be there. ______ Vad innebär det att bygga ett 'internet of humans'? Vi behöver alternativ till amerikanska företagsnät å ena sidan och kinesisk statlig kontroll å andra sidan. Edgryders bygger en allians under de kommande tre åren för att leda bra initiativ från ord till handling genom att bygga konsortier och guida till finansiering. Alliansen är redan finansierad genom det stora projektet 'Next Generation Internet' i Horisont 2020, EU:s ramprogram för forskning och innovation. Just nu finns det tre saker att agera på: 1. Vi har ett smygstarts-event för inbjudna i Stockholm den 11 maj. Du är inbjuden, och registrering sker här: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/stockholm-may-11th-internet-of-humans-matchmaking-event/9705 2. Vi söker 'curator fellows' med brinnande frågor som vill jobba med oss de kommande sex månaderna. Mer info om det här: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/fellowships-with-bursaries-for-human-centric-internet-builders-deadline-may-30/9715 3. Vi söker intressanta initiativ och personer som vill vara en del av alliansen de kommande åren. Tipsa oss gärna! Internet of Humans är en allians av organisationer, företag, aktivister och utvecklare som samarbetar för att utveckla nya modeller för framtidens internet som bygger på öppenhet, integritet, samarbete över gränser, decentralisering och inkludering. Vi tar avstamp i projektet Next Generation Internet som för samman hundratals initiativtagare i hela Europa. Vi vill snabbt gå från ord till handling och målet är att under året forma starka konstanon4205961763tioner som kan söka pengar tillsammans för banbrytande projekt. Edgeryders har tagit fram metoder för att snabbt hitta nya infallsvinklar och unika frågeställningar. Under de kommande två åren kommer Edgeryders ge stöd till alliansen genom att: * Utse fellow-curators, betalda för att samla ihop de mest intressanta initiativen och frågeställningarna och knyta dem samman * Hålla events, både offline och online, med syfte att skapa kopplingar manon4205961763n människor, projekt och idéer * Ge stöd i ansökningsprocessen genom tillgång till erfarna ansökningsskribenter * Samla ansökningsdatum och kriterier på en plattform där vi hjälper varandra förstå vad som efterfrågas * Vi kommer göra de första gemensamma ansökningarna redan i sommar, och sedan trappa upp i höst och vinter ______ @anon2236365655, @anon1187869111, @anon4004532087, @anon3629644873, @anon1572937553, @anon3828707713, @anon3005461236 If you want to help me and @anon3214242932x reach out, you can ping some relevant people in your networks." 31,52570,2019-04-15T14:14:58.460Z,9705,1,42,41,1,0,0,108.4,52348,anon3438061475,anon659222949,"I intend to be present. I live within walking distance so it should not be difficult. I am active within [DFRI](https://www.dfri.se/) fighting for digital rights." 32,52571,2019-04-15T14:16:00.115Z,9705,0,40,39,2,1,0,78.0,52570,anon659222949,anon3438061475,"[quote=""anon3438061475, post:31, topic:9705""] I intend to be present. I live within walking distance so it should not be difficult. [/quote] Great, you are very welcome. Feel free to point people you think should be there towards this thread." 33,52576,2019-04-15T15:11:30.460Z,9705,0,39,38,3,0,0,127.8,52348,anon3005461236,anon659222949,I will attend. http://eriklonroth.com 34,52589,2019-04-16T03:25:16.723Z,9705,0,38,37,2,0,0,107.6,52348,anon742443438,anon659222949,I'm in. :) 35,52596,2019-04-16T08:31:30.061Z,9705,1,39,38,5,0,0,127.8,52348,anon1223811605,anon659222949,"Timing is a tad bit tricky, but will do my best to make it work. Will keep you updated. Me: http://anon1223811605.se Somewhat relevant current project: http://changecourse.se /Björn Nauclér" 36,52657,2019-04-17T15:05:07.737Z,9705,0,37,36,35,0,0,227.4,52348,anon659222949,anon659222949,"We've started having video calls with participants to do anon2488317424 interviews. Zenna interviewed @anon3214242932x today, and he interviewed her. Then Mattias got the transcript of his own words and edited it into a post, which you can read here: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-do-we-organize-society-for-a-whole-systems-approach-for-developing-the-internet/9766 [quote=""anon3214242932x, post:1, topic:9766""] I do not know of any projects working on the organising of society in relation to the internet, only W3C and IETF working on technical collaboration and standardization. My interest in this is mainly in connection to the recent developments and consequences from the Internet that people can experience in their daily offline life or when surfing the World Wide Web. [/quote] These interviews and the posts they generate will inform the tracks of the event on May 11th. Who would like to go next?" 37,52746,2019-04-23T14:20:32.581Z,9705,0,37,36,1,0,0,237.4,52348,anon659222949,anon659222949,"Before the main event, @anon3379761435 will give a session on anon2696444391 we in Edgeryders use collective intelligence. https://www.facebook.com/events/828397694207351 Albertos session starts at 13:00, and the main event starts at 14:00. > How can we structure online conversations to build powerful collective intelligence? What tools would we need to be able to navigate our networks of collective intelligence as well as we navigate our own thoughts, experiences and opinions? > > Edgeryders have developed tools and methods with this in mind, drawing upon digital ethnography, semantic social network analysis and online community management practices. > > In this workshop we'll give you an interactive demonstration of our tools with real data, talk about anon2696444391 increased collision rates and dense networks accelerate innovation and inspire you to think about anon2696444391 to find unknown solutions to hidden problems. You will learn about the bleeding edge of large scale digital ethnography and sense making through Semantic Social Network Analysis. Ping @anon" 39,52754,2019-04-23T17:04:26.295Z,9705,0,36,35,2,0,0,182.2,52404,anon1811177184,anon659222949,"Hi @anon659222949. Thanks for the kind words. I think I’ve moved from being fascinated to feeling more or less fed up with the ideologies and products coming from the valley. A process over the last ten years or so, where the internet I grew up on got replaced by social media products that are affecting me and people around me in ways I don’t like." 40,52763,2019-04-24T06:01:12.710Z,9705,2,36,35,1,0,0,292.2,52348,anon1750016228,anon659222949,"Very interesting indeed, I want to attend. I was a Member of the European Parliament for the (Swedish) Pirate Party 2009-2014. As an MEP I focused almost exclusively on issues related to the free and open internet, such as copyright reform and trying to limit mass surveillance. I became a political activist in 2004 over the EU directive on Software Patents, and have been ever since. I find it truly amazing and fascinating anon2696444391 a swarm of activists, working together over the internet, can succeed in both understanding the very complicated EU legislative process, and changing its outcome. I am convinced that we are right now witnessing the emergence of a collective intelligence (or multiple collective intelligences) in the form of swarm(s) of activists. If this is indeed the case, I think that this will (hopefully) be the future of democracy in the EU, enabling citizens to take an active part. The EU legislative process is too complicated for a single citizen to really understand and follow. But a swarm of citizens can do it, as we have demonstrated several times in the last 15 years, and will hopefully demonstrate again. /Christian Engström" 41,52818,2019-04-25T00:52:03.305Z,9705,1,33,32,1,0,0,106.6,52348,anon2308483784,anon659222949,"Thanks for the invite Hugi, I'll see you there! Short intro: Developer / Designer / Front End Wizard ✨ [Mishmash](https://www.mishma.sh/) + [Blimp](https://blimp.se/) 🚀" 42,52827,2019-04-25T10:42:37.585Z,9705,1,33,32,1,0,0,106.6,52348,anon2077528258,anon659222949,"Thanks for the invite via the scuttleverse Hugi! I'm in for this one! I just signed up on this site, so I guess I'm new to Edgeryders. **Short intro on me:** I'm a (originally Dutch) full-stack system developer living and working in North-Sweden for one of Nordics bigger newspaper companies. In my free time I like building sites, apps and software systems (mostly from and for space/sat related tech). This meetup seems to be right up my alley ;) See you folks there!" 43,52829,2019-04-25T12:18:49.213Z,9705,0,32,31,21,3,0,156.4,52763,anon659222949,anon1750016228,"[quote=""anon1750016228, post:40, topic:9705""] Very interesting indeed, I want to attend. [/quote] Great news! You will be a very important addition. Indeed, we need to employ this alliance towards both technical developments and policy activism. [quote=""anon2308483784, post:41, topic:9705""] Thanks for the invite Hugi, I’ll see you there! [/quote] Happy to have you with us @anon2308483784! [quote=""anon2077528258, post:42, topic:9705""] (mostly from and for space/sat related tech). [/quote] This I would love to hear more about @anon2077528258. Any links you want to share?" 44,52831,2019-04-25T12:59:23.679Z,9705,2,28,27,1,0,0,140.6,52348,anon3011728773,anon659222949,"Hey! I'd love to attend. I'm building Human Network - a social network for movements - and Fluent, a distributed network of speciality talent that accelerates products/companies with a positive impact. Curious about the alliance!" 45,52832,2019-04-25T13:24:55.739Z,9705,0,30,29,1,1,0,11.0,52831,anon659222949,anon3011728773,"[quote=""anon3011728773, post:44, topic:9705""] I’m building Human Network - a social network for movements - and Fluent, a distributed network of speciality talent [/quote] Great! Very happy to have you Rasmus!" 46,52838,2019-04-25T16:42:23.216Z,9705,1,29,28,1,0,0,105.8,52348,anon3930778105,anon659222949,I've confirmed my travel arrangements. Looking forward to the event and to seeing Sweden for the first time. 47,52843,2019-04-25T18:34:32.357Z,9705,1,29,28,1,1,0,60.8,52838,anon659222949,anon3930778105,"[quote=""anon3930778105, post:46, topic:9705, full:true""] I’ve confirmed my travel arrangements. Looking forward to the event and to seeing Sweden for the first time. [/quote] Great! How long will you be here and where are you staying? You are more than welcome to come [work from Blanon2066456771de](http://blanon2066456771de.com/) while you are in Stockholm. We always make room for guests in Edgeryders projects." 48,52852,2019-04-26T08:45:16.002Z,9705,1,24,23,1,0,0,119.8,52348,anon1875617573,anon659222949,"Hi, I am really interested in such an event! I think the ambition of the project is great and really glad to have found a forum to discuss this. I've recently opened a startup with the goal of building a consumer-centered portal that focuses on data integrity. We are building a safe portal for the web, for stopping the sell of data and the tracking. The alpha version of our work can be seen here: [NoNoRank](https://nonorank.com). Hopefully a new Internet is possible. I would really appreciate to participate and discuss! :)" 49,52856,2019-04-26T10:02:27.263Z,9705,0,25,24,1,0,0,10.0,52852,anon659222949,anon1875617573,Welcome @anon1875617573! 50,52865,2019-04-26T16:18:45.023Z,9705,0,25,24,1,0,0,55.0,52843,anon3930778105,anon659222949,"> Great! How long will you be here and where are you staying? I arrive Friday and return to Paris on Monday, but I'll be visit Linkoping on Sunday. I booked an airbnb a walkable distance from the location. I'll probably come and check out the space on Friday just so I know anon2696444391 to get there." 51,52871,2019-04-27T10:26:38.536Z,9705,1,28,27,1,0,0,60.6,52763,anon3379761435,anon1750016228,"Hello @anon1750016228, welcome! I read and greatly enjoyed your book – in fact, some of your insights are embedded into the fabric of [anon2696444391 Edgeryders is organized](/t/8729). We even briefly met in Stockholm once, though you probably do not remember me. Thing is, I am working on the mathematics of detecting and interpreting ""swarming"" in the context of an online conversation. It is several levels of abstraction removed from *Swarmwise"", but I think you will resonate. I am giving a presentation of it, just before the main event, and you are more than welcome to attend. https://www.facebook.com/events/828397694207351 Looking forward to seeing you at Blanon2066456771de!" 52,52891,2019-04-27T15:17:23.781Z,9705,0,31,30,2,0,0,136.2,52831,anon294806887,anon3011728773,"Hei @anon3011728773, I'm intrigued by your Human Network - I'm not sure which of the resources online are accurate, as a google search returns results for groups in both the Netherlands and Sweden.. Do you have a link? How is it going.. and more importantly, what do you expect to come out of it? Asking because there's many groups out there talking about more collaboration and better interoperability - we ourselves got into plenty of discussions with other networks over the years, but a path was never clear, and covering the costs for coordination is very expensive, as we see every day in our own network. Thanks! // Noemi, community manager in around anon1577251828. xx" 53,52896,2019-04-27T15:45:07.057Z,9705,0,33,32,1,0,0,56.6,52348,anon3203746736,anon659222949,This is shaping up to be anon2373157426 an auspicious gathering. Every one of you has a fascinating story to tell. I hope you will elaborate more on your projects and ideas in other parts of this forum. 54,52902,2019-04-28T12:03:34.000Z,9705,1,31,30,1,0,0,16.2,52871,anon1750016228,anon3379761435,"Hello Alberto, I look forward to meeting you (again) at the event. Which book are you talking about, is it Swarmwise? If so, I should point out that it is not written by me, but by Rick Falkvanon2945747231 (who founded the Swedish Pirate Party). I like his book a lot, anon2696444391ever, and I agree with more or less everything it says. I look forward to listening to your presentation of it and discussing it. See you at Blanon2066456771de! /Christian" 55,52915,2019-04-29T09:23:38.285Z,9705,0,29,28,1,0,0,10.8,52902,anon3379761435,anon1750016228,"Yes, Christian. I confused people: you and I met not in Stockholm but in Brussels, in the very early days of your mandate as MEP. The book is indeed Swarmwise. Apologies, and see you at the event!" 56,52918,2019-04-29T10:37:22.769Z,9705,1,26,25,1,0,0,45.2,52348,anon2246451011,anon659222949,"Thanks for the invitation, I'll come. I work with open science/open access to scholarly literature." 57,52919,2019-04-29T10:40:47.579Z,9705,0,26,25,1,1,0,25.2,52918,anon659222949,anon2246451011,"[quote=""anon2246451011, post:56, topic:9705""] I’ll come. I work with open science/open access to scholarly literature. [/quote] Great! Happy to have you join us." 58,52921,2019-04-29T10:51:17.240Z,9705,0,28,27,2,0,0,90.6,52348,anon659222949,anon659222949,"I very highly recommend this post by @anon2682865457 to everyone coming to the event: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-radically-new-internet-a-study-on-p2p-protocols-and-mesh-networks/9802?u=anon659222949 Let’s try to get the ball rolling on a few other interesting conversations like this before the event, and we’ll really hit the ground running." 59,53038,2019-05-02T09:37:48.673Z,9705,1,27,26,2,0,0,140.4,52348,anon1945272070,anon659222949,"I got an invitation from @anon659222949 and I intend to be there. I'm mostly interested in the human side of technology in general, and internet in particular, and there's more information about me at http://kazarnowi.cz" 60,53106,2019-05-04T20:34:29.161Z,9705,0,26,25,8,0,0,60.2,53038,anon3379761435,anon1945272070,"Welcome then! I will be there too, so see you there." 61,53130,2019-05-06T10:55:23.245Z,9705,0,22,21,1,0,0,114.4,52348,anon659222949,anon659222949,"Good news for those of you attending who are curious about our [Fellowships with Bursaries for Human-Centric Internet builders](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/fellowships-with-bursaries-for-human-centric-internet-builders-deadline-may-30/9715)! To apply for the fellowship you need to complete the following task: [quote=""anon3828707713, post:1, topic:9715""] **How to get started? Join the process of building the Internet of Humans sections of our festival program** 1. Interview a person relevant to your burning question. 2. Transcribe interview and have the interviewee post it [here ](/c/ioh). *You will need to create an [anon1577251828.eu ](http://anon1577251828.eu) account to do this.* 3. Comment in depth on at least one other transcribed interview. [/quote] And the good news is that this is one of the things we will be doing at the matchmaking event. This means that you can use your transcribed interview from the event for your application. Two birds, one sanon2863106368e." 62,53146,2019-05-06T15:40:23.606Z,9705,0,19,18,1,0,0,53.8,52348,anon3735695272,anon659222949,"I might not be able to, but I'd very much like to join in! Developer with sprawling interests in... everything concerning understanding and helping humanity. Psychology, technology, complexity, spirituality, community, networks, philosophy. Maybe I'll be lazy and give my LinkedIn profile as presentation https://linkedin.com/in/semikolon" 63,53163,2019-05-06T20:31:28.882Z,9705,1,22,21,1,0,0,104.4,52348,anon2873026556,anon659222949,"Oh I was so excited to see Hugi's post about this, it seems right up my alley. In fact, that could be my presentation - ""Excitable"". I haven't had the attention to scrutinize all the conversation, perhaps not even register in proper time, but if you'll have me I'll be delighted to attend the extended event on Saturday! Best regards CJ - consultant in systems development etc" 64,53164,2019-05-06T21:09:13.974Z,9705,0,25,24,1,0,0,10.0,52348,anon659222949,anon659222949,"@anon3735695272 and @anon2873026556, you are both most welcome!" 65,53170,2019-05-07T07:16:51.562Z,9705,0,25,24,2,0,0,15.0,52596,anon1223811605,anon1223811605,I'm sorry to say it won't work out this time. Looking forward to future events! 66,53231,2019-05-08T13:10:30.968Z,9705,2,24,23,4,0,0,124.8,53163,anon2873026556,anon2873026556,"I would like to elaborate slightly on what I'm so excited about. Mainly I'm coming for the session with @anon3379761435, but certainly I'm staying for the Internet of Humans workshop and the fiercely brilliant community. As a technologist, reader and dabbling philosopher I went through the perhaps recognizable process from Internet awe (""Wikipedia will rescue Truth!"") to attention fatigue. There a couple of years ago Alexander Bard, Joi Ito and Kevin Kelly saved me, and since then Susan Blackmore, Marshall McLuhan, Herbert Simon, Robin Dunbar, ""Hanzi Freinacht"" et al have kept me inspired. Network effects, serendipity, conversations, meaning, the invitation from @anon659222949 alerted me to that there may be others who walk these paths beside and ahead of me. Let's see anon2696444391 I move past my awe this time. Perhaps you'll appreciate my humble, initial contribution ""[Meditation on group communication](https://medium.com/@anon2873026556/meditation-on-group-communication-2715520e3a7e)""" 67,53234,2019-05-08T13:48:52.924Z,9705,1,24,23,1,1,0,74.8,53231,anon3379761435,anon2873026556,"[quote=""anon2873026556, post:66, topic:9705""] perhaps recognizable process from Internet awe (“Wikipedia will rescue Truth!”) [/quote] Well recognized, @anon2873026556. Well recognized indeed. [quote=""anon2873026556, post:66, topic:9705""] There a couple of years ago Alexander Bard, Joi Ito and Kevin Kelly saved me, and since then Susan Blackmore, Marshall McLuhan, Herbert Simon, Robin Dunbar, “Hanzi Freinacht” et al have kept me inspired. [/quote] I have a different pantheon (bar Herbert Alexander Simon), but I think I get the idea. [quote=""anon2873026556, post:66, topic:9705""] Perhaps you’ll appreciate my humble, initial contribution “[Meditation on group communication](https://medium.com/@anon2873026556/meditation-on-group-communication-2715520e3a7e)” [/quote] I am curious: is there a reason why you don't mention topology? In network terms, your groups are perfect cliques, with everybody connected to everybody else by edges of equal weight representing communications. That is... a very specific configuration to require. Groups can scale much better if you allow for more flexibility in patterns of connectivity (local hubs, lattices, small world etc.)." 68,53239,2019-05-08T14:50:42.969Z,9705,0,23,22,1,1,0,9.6,53234,anon2873026556,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:67, topic:9705""] Well recognized, @anon2873026556. Well recognized indeed. [/quote] Thanks. I imagine others would benefit from recognizing the same... [quote=""anon3379761435, post:67, topic:9705""] I have a different pantheon (bar Herbert Alexander Simon), but I think I get the idea. [/quote] Looking forward to learning more about yours :slight_smile: [quote=""anon3379761435, post:67, topic:9705""] I am curious: is there a reason why you don’t mention topology? In network terms, your groups are perfect cliques, with everybody connected to everybody else by edges of equal weight representing communications. That is… a very specific configuration to require. Groups can scale much better if you allow for more flexibility in patterns of connectivity (local hubs, lattices, small world etc.). [/quote] Precisely the question I hope you might elaborate on! Indeed I could rename my article ""meditation on meetings"", I was mainly thinking of the communication happening around a single table. My intention was to establish a base case, driven by my personal hypersensitivity to quality of conversation and inspired by the [late Ladislaus Horatius' ""Mindfulosophy""](https://www.facebook.com/Visdomsgille-Mindfulosophy-1216582355070855/). I touch on topology in _""Dividing into smaller group can enable more participation and diverse conversations, but unless you can summarize and bring those thoughts back you lose out on the benefits of a large group of participants to begin with""_ and have seen (painfully) failed attempts to migrate existing large groups to sensible topologies... but yes, I very much look forward to your elaboration." 69,53245,2019-05-08T16:32:33.332Z,9705,1,18,17,1,0,0,28.6,53231,anon3203746736,anon2873026556,"You make a good point in your essay, if I understand it correctly, that sometimes if you disagree with something someone says in a larger group conversation, it is often better to not feed it with your attention rather than take vocal issue with it, since often that leads to a tangent that can derail the main thrust of the conversation. In my experience this is useful in many, if not most cases." 70,53249,2019-05-08T20:18:19.680Z,9705,0,21,20,8,1,0,89.2,53245,anon2873026556,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:69, topic:9705""] if you disagree with something someone says in a larger group conversation, it is often better to not feed it with your attention rather than take vocal issue with it [/quote] That's definitely my preferred analysis, which may of course have its antithesis. The philosophy group that caused me to formulate these thoughts would get hijacked in almost surreal ways... on the other hand some of my most magically mindful meetings have been with Noden / Blanon2066456771de, but that resilience seems carefully cultivated. Having said that, there are abundant aspects of network society I have not formulated, and I may already have hijacked this thread or preempted the matchmaking event... Are we on a good track here, for a while mesmerizing ourselves with the power of network effects and memetics, or does @anon659222949 or @anon3379761435 care to direct us some ahead of the event on Saturday? I'll spend some time to read the material available, learn of founding principles etc... And will see most of you on Saturday!" 71,53259,2019-05-09T07:09:05.189Z,9705,0,25,24,1,0,0,10.0,52348,anon3828707713,anon659222949,"Hey guys, ahead of the Stockholm meetup you may want to [have a look at this post](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/welcome-to-retirement/9869/2) as I think it can be helpful for the discussion. Maybe also help spread it around to your people so we can grow this conversation...
[![Who%20CAN%20WE%20TRUS%20WHEN%20EVERY%20PACKET%20IS%20A%20POTENTIAL%20CARRIER%20OF%20A%20LIE_(1)|690x578](upload://zBZ9sIOpcuhfCAOLiBnJSGk2m4l.png)](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/welcome-to-retirement/9869/2)" 72,53260,2019-05-09T07:58:15.725Z,9705,0,27,26,3,1,0,20.4,52399,anon2873026556,anon1760588290,"[quote=""anon1760588290, post:6, topic:9705""] OpenTimestamps dabbler [/quote] Wow! Not only does the amount of IPFS/Scuttlebutt/whatever experience in this group excite me, but timestamps... I was an early employee in [Guardtime](https://www.wired.com/2015/06/tech-behind-bitcoin-stop-next-snowden/) and learnt the innovative details of Ahto Buldas' protocol. Let's talk!" 73,53266,2019-05-09T10:19:13.698Z,9705,0,29,28,2,0,0,90.8,52348,anon3214242932,anon659222949,"Hey everyone! Some more info about the event and a request: Alberto's presentation is starting at 13.00 and our workshop is still starting at 14.00. The request: We kindly need to ask you to bring a laptop for the event if you have the possibility. The laptops will help us document the day and lay foundation for continued collaboration and progress online after the workshop. In connection to this, please also download these templates (in .odt and .docx) and bring them with on your laptop for the workshop. Link: https://mega.nz/#F!W2An0aoZ!W2ByWPQrSrbx-rv_o2-IUQ We're looking forward to see you all for the event on Saturday! Ping (confirmed attendees) @anon" 74,53280,2019-05-09T12:32:36.141Z,9705,0,26,25,1,0,0,10.2,52456,anon3629644873,anon3629644873,"@anon659222949 unfortunately I won’t make it, due to some last minute developments. I hope it doesn’t cause any pain with regards to the planning! Sad to miss this one!" 75,53295,2019-05-09T20:59:09.224Z,9705,0,23,22,1,0,0,114.6,52348,anon659222949,anon659222949,"Only a couple of days to go! On Saturday, you will be in the exceedingly capable hands of @anon3214242932x and @anon3379761435, and we've laid a final hand to the event schedule together. I'm sad to say that I must attend the funeral of a family member this weekend and have had to return to Iceland. Hence, I will not be there at the event. I will, anon2696444391ever, follow up with all of you next week. I'm very sad to miss this, but after all, this is only the beginning. I am really looking forward to seeing what comes out of this and reconnecting with you once I am back." 76,53313,2019-05-10T14:07:24.664Z,9705,0,25,24,1,0,0,145.0,52348,anon3743211146,anon659222949,"Hey, I will gladly attend. I currently put a lot of my efforts so that more research-based ideas hit the streets. This looks like a great community, curious to meet in person." 77,53319,2019-05-10T16:22:54.517Z,9705,0,25,24,1,0,0,145.0,52348,anon1061055045,anon659222949,"I'd like to join too. I'm developing an open source decentralized alternative to things like Slack, Quora, Facebook groups, Reddit, Disqus. It's called [Talkyard](https://www.talkyard.io/). I'm from Gothenburg, Sweden, live in Stockholm. Looking forward to meeting everyone and finding out more :- )" 78,53328,2019-05-11T11:04:43.839Z,9705,0,24,23,1,0,0,54.8,52348,anon921785107,anon659222949,Hi! I’m interested in possibility of decentralized internet and what society could be like having tools to share and preserve information freely. Going to attend leading talk today and hope to participate in meeting group which follows 79,53329,2019-05-11T12:34:01.193Z,9705,0,26,25,1,0,0,55.2,52348,anon3214242932,anon659222949,Link to templates: https://mega.nz/#F!W2An0aoZ!W2ByWPQrSrbx-rv_o2-IUQ 80,53331,2019-05-12T09:34:43.899Z,9705,1,26,25,10,0,0,255.2,52348,anon3379761435,anon659222949," Hello to all the humans of the Internet of humans event, it was really lovely to meet you all. You can see by the picture (that only contains Scuttlebutt users, apparently – thanks @anon2682865457 for the initiative!) that we were pretty happy by the end of it. Some people have been asking for the slides of my presentation. [Here they are](https://cryptpad.fr/file/#/2/file/zxxObz0IU7zRI5DhzPAlftlO/) inclusive of presenter notes. I have stored it on CryptPad as a tribute to @anon3930778105; I am a CryptPad newbie, let me know if I have set the permissions wrong and you are unable to download. Special shout out to my triad mates @anon3005461236, @anon1760588290 and Typhaine (yes, a triad of four). Also nice talking to @anon1750016228 and the fiery @anon3304065438. @anon3556768308, you were missed! I hope to get to meet you at some point. :slight_smile:" 81,53333,2019-05-12T11:09:19.997Z,9705,1,25,24,25,1,0,180.0,53331,anon2873026556,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:80, topic:9705""] Some people have been asking for the slides of my presentation. [Here they are ](https://pad.fr/file/#/2/file/zxxObz0IU7zRI5DhzPAlftlO/) inclusive of presenter notes [/quote] 404 PAGE NOT FOUND :-( [There](https://cryptpad.fr/file/#/2/file/zxxObz0IU7zRI5DhzPAlftlO/) we go... :-)" 82,53336,2019-05-12T13:43:55.076Z,9705,0,24,23,1,0,0,9.8,53333,anon3379761435,anon2873026556,Thanks @anon2873026556!! 83,53494,2019-05-14T19:53:01.574Z,9705,0,22,21,1,0,0,144.4,52348,anon2682865457,anon659222949,"Thank you all for an awesome event! Had a great time and many great meetings as well as conversations. Very happy to have gone. See my notes from @anon3379761435 s presentation [here](https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/2/code/view/NSURE7IN0xGwaeEM3GNOjtYEou9qa6TdHhtr1xgqxiE/) :) Much :heart_decoration:" 84,54032,2019-05-27T11:50:41.190Z,9705,0,16,15,1,0,0,53.2,52348,anon1032047132,anon659222949,I'm sorry to have missed this event. I only found out about this project last week via a colleague at Holo. I will be making a proper introduction in due course and explore anon2696444391 I can get involved. 1,52837,2019-04-25T16:36:08.957Z,9802,2,54,53,737,0,0,3982.8,52837,anon2682865457,anon2682865457,"![follow_graph|690x450](upload://7cnwtmaivKfQnLTcy6SA8wEcebG.png) *Illustration of the [Scuttlebut protocol](https://ssbc.github.io/scuttlebutt-protocol-guide/)* Mesh networks are local network of routers that are interconnected. Usually they are a way for communities to share WIFI connectivity with each other and in many cases these mesh networks are run by communities as a means of free Internet connection within an area, or at least cheaper Internet connection within an area. Mesh networks can also be found within companies for more local infrastructure, these are seldomly, by those active in the mesh network scene, considered mesh networks though. What’s specifically interesting is when you take mesh networks in combination with peer-to-peer protocols, such as [Scuttlebutt](www.scuttlebutt.nz) or the [DAT-protocol](https://datproject.org/) as new features are enabled, seldomly else even imagined. They happen to fit very well together as the two technologies merge and creating something anon2373157426 unique: Some interesting use qualities are, - offline communication Communication which can happen in the same geographical region without requiring http/""The Internet"". Be that file sharing, such as in the case of dat or actual person to person communication such as in the case of SSB. - Free Data - The only cost is the hardware, hardware similar to the ones already found in almost every single household in western society. - More private data, less vulnerability - As the data is stored locally there's a much smaller risk in terms of third party infranon2945747231ment, be that in the form of a data leak such as [the facebook scandal](https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathleenchaykowski/2018/04/04/facebook-says-data-on-87-million-people-may-have-been-shared-in-cambridge-analytica-leak/1) I’m currently looking at use cases for these technologies and have sketched out three different areas for these kinds of implementations. 1) Underdeveloped regions where infrastructure are not always available. Having mesh networks in combination with peer-to-peer enables for communication through WIFI and that communication can still happen. 2) Local communities, it’s very efficient means for communication, for example for eco villages, off-grid living - mesh networks are ideal. 3) Privacy / National Infrastructure Security - We are seeing a rise of cyber security attacks, specifically cyber security attacks which are targeting national and corporate infrastrucutre - [taking communities and entire nations offline](https://nordic.businessinsider.com/can-hackers-take-entire-countries-offline-2018-12). Mesh networks in combination with peer-to-peer protocols could be a solution for a lot of privacy issues that we are currently seeing in contemporary society. If mesh networks and peer-to-peer protocols are implemented, especially in combination with each other, it would be a much more durable communciation infrastructure for society. This also goes for company infrastructures and the flaws that we see - as a means for both international, and business2business espionage is happening via cyber platforms. If companies use and communicate via meshnets and peer-to-peer it is safer and not as easy to hijack. One of the biggest saefty issues in terms of privacy is also human errors, some of those issues are eliminated with peer-to-peer solutions. Passwords are eliminated. User IDs and device are tied to each other. A hacker would actually have to have physical access to someones device or gain their private keys rather than password accounts which is more easily cracked. Currently there are a lot of different mesh networks in the world. I do not have a complete overview at the moment. Guifi covers most of southern Europe. Freifunk is a big one in Germany. Then we have some areas in Greece which communicates via sanon1537101702te connections, but local ones. Those are the most interesting ones right now. There are actually no examples as of now having mesh networks plus peer-to-peer protocols implemented at the same time. In regards to specifically Sweden and the Nordic region I am in looking into this right now. I am keen to explore this as with the three target areas mentioned above. On one hand our communication infrastructure is not as durable as we would like to think. Both seen through examples as in Northern Sweden as infrastructure can be down and out for longer time periods when there is snow for example. Also with cases when there is highly fragile infrastructure which from a cyber security perspective can be taken offline entirely by a small team of 5 qualified hackers. __________________ This research is funded by the EU fund [Designscapes](http://designscapes.eu/) for exploring the implementation of mesh+P2P in Northern Europe. Any leads, potential contacts or groups to discuss implementation with is highly welcomed! " 2,52858,2019-04-26T11:23:45.965Z,9802,2,45,44,4,0,0,129.0,52837,anon2197402769,anon2682865457,"Love it. I had a list of technologies like [IPFS](https://ipfs.io/), scuttlebut, dat, [SOLID (Bernes-Lee)](https://solid.inrupt.com/) and so on, but don't find it at the moment. If you could document your findings in a wiki topic (like [the resource planning software list](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/open-source-software-for-resource-scheduling-and-booking/6629)) or somewhere else and share the link, I'd be very gladful. Noawadys, a lot of projects take the blockchain hype (and I assumed 95% of it will be gone/given up within the next few years), where it is very difficult to access the real value and basis of these projects - at least for me. Doing stuff ""blockchain"" seems to often comes with ""having a supershiny overpromising webpage"" (have to rant a bit here). And at the last Makers4Humanity lab there was something going a bit into the crossover you mentioned: a local file-sharing hot spot with chat capabilities. I do not remember the projects name, but might stumble upon it again. I think I took a picture of the printed-out usage instructions somwhere." 3,52863,2019-04-26T15:02:45.749Z,9802,1,42,41,2,0,0,23.4,52837,anon3203746736,anon2682865457,You are part of the Designscapes group? 5,52885,2019-04-27T14:35:24.453Z,9802,0,41,40,1,0,0,13.2,1,anon3203746736,anon2197402769,I meant anon2682865457. It looks like an interesting group and project. 6,52886,2019-04-27T14:36:32.922Z,9802,0,41,40,2,0,0,18.2,52837,anon3203746736,anon2682865457,">There are actually no examples as of now having mesh networks plus peer-to-peer protocols implemented at the same time. So in other words, there are these networks set up for communication within the network, and they may or may not plug into the main 'Net in some way, but there is not an example of these mesh networks communicating with each other directly?" 7,52901,2019-04-28T11:28:26.845Z,9802,0,38,37,30,0,0,277.6,52858,anon2682865457,anon2197402769,"> I had a list of technologies like [IPFS](https://ipfs.io/), scuttlebut, dat, [SOLID (Bernes-Lee)](https://solid.inrupt.com/) and so on, but don’t find it at the moment. @anon2197402769, that's awesome! If you do find it, I'd be very keen to see. I keep my lists of fun things [in this spread](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LFbflHSdTLqCDc0fio10cVKuuMQdG9qPJ4B7nmpIH5M/edit#gid=2104697170). Yeah, reg. blockchain I feel similarly and tend to stay away from the hype. That's also why I'm so excited about the new realm of distributed webs, it has real practical implementations and solves a lot of the issues we see with current web protocols. IPFS too even though they are more silicon-valley oriented than SSB or dat. I'm very keen to learn more about Solid! So far I've only heard briefly about it... I can't help but wonder if there's a reason I for why I haven't heard anyone talk about it much. > And at the last Makers4Humanity lab there was something going a bit into the crossover you mentioned: a local file-sharing hot spot with chat capabilities. This sounds interesting as well! If you remember what it was, link me up pls! :pray: :sparkles:" 8,52904,2019-04-28T13:29:31.133Z,9802,0,38,37,3,0,0,112.6,52863,anon2682865457,anon3203746736,"> You are part of the Designscapes group? Not directly part of it, the research I'm doing currently on mesh-networks and P2P was funded by them though :cherry_blossom: > So in other words, there are these networks set up for communication within the network, and they may or may not plug into the main 'Net in some way, but there is not an example of these mesh networks communicating with each other directly? No, and yes. haha, to give a correct answer. No as in, that's not what I was referring to at in that section. There simply aren't any mesh networks which run with P2P protocols as of yet, only prototypes. This is even though technologically they are a perfect fit due to the local data hosting. Yes, as in there are no direct connections between the distributed protocols although the ssb and dat community are starting to look into anon2696444391 they can merge better, especially SSB and DAT are a very good combo. If you are on Scuttlebutt, there's a bit more about this in this link: %jRIyWsJZwKgxfA3K/pJfZv4sMv4DQMKl8Eq+JHPo3p4=.sha256" 9,52905,2019-04-28T13:32:36.138Z,9802,1,37,36,11,0,0,67.4,52858,anon2682865457,anon2197402769,"> And at the last Makers4Humanity lab there was something going a bit into the crossover you mentioned: a local file-sharing hot spot with chat capabilities. Was it perhaps [Subnodes](http://subnodes.org/) you were thinking of? Yannick from iMal mentioned it over on Scuttlebutt and it sounded very similar to what you described." 10,52906,2019-04-28T19:13:55.186Z,9802,1,37,36,2,1,0,22.4,52905,anon2197402769,anon2682865457,"[quote=""anon2682865457, post:9, topic:9802""] a local file-sharing hot spot with chat capabilities [/quote] Right now pretty sure it was [PirateBox](https://piratebox.cc/doku.php?id=openwrt:diy) . On the way to finding it, I also stumbled over https://daviddarts.com/offline-file-sharing . Too sad we often forget that the world is full of crazy and cool." 11,52914,2019-04-29T09:21:33.931Z,9802,2,35,34,6,1,0,152.0,52837,anon659222949,anon2682865457,"Thank you for this excellent post @anon2682865457! [quote=""anon2682865457, post:1, topic:9802""] In regards to specifically Sweden and the Nordic region I am in looking into this right now. I am keen to explore this as with the three target areas mentioned above. [/quote] We actually just got our hands on a bunch of RaspberryPis at Blanon2066456771de, the cultural hub, workshop and co-working space we run in the harbor of Stockholm. Maybe we should extend a mesh network around the house and the harbor? I think @anon4004532087 might be interested in some meshing." 12,52938,2019-04-29T20:20:44.800Z,9802,1,34,33,1,0,0,61.8,52837,anon3456498318,anon2682865457,"Check out https://freifunk.net/en/ They seem to be the largest community that is active at the moment. They have been active for anon2373157426 a few years. For something more ephemeral but in the same idea of other networks, also have a look at https://hyperboria.net/ Hyperboria had a very interesting scene going a while ago, I lost my key so I have not been there for a while. :slight_smile: There were some people from the Nordic region in Hyperboria when I was there. There are anon2373157426 a few P2P protocols or Delay Tolerant Networking systems available, but not very many that would be easy to adopt. At least I have not found a favourite yet. Freifunk seems to have a relatively robust solution going. Maybe you know all this, but I did not see it mentioned." 13,52941,2019-04-29T23:50:21.084Z,9802,0,33,32,2,0,0,31.6,52914,anon3203746736,anon659222949,Meshin' around. 14,52979,2019-04-30T13:05:27.926Z,9802,1,32,31,1,1,0,31.4,52837,anon3379761435,anon2682865457,"Hello @anon2682865457, welcome and thanks for the thoughtful post. I am myself a user of Scuttlebutt (SSB), and would like to qualify your proposition that [quote=""anon2682865457, post:1, topic:9802""] What’s specifically interesting is when you take mesh networks in combination with peer-to-peer protocols, [...] they happen to fit very well together as the two technologies merge and creating something anon2373157426 unique. [/quote] Scuttlebutt's [presentation video](https://vimeo.com/236358264) states: > When Scuttlebutt is running, it looks to see if there are any other Scuttlebutt accounts on the local network, that is to say, the coffee shop wi-fi. In the video, the two cute characters Jackie and Martin are indeed using SSB from the same coffee shop. She follows him, he is well connected, and all is clear skies and smooth sailing from there. Indeed, they do not need ""the Internet"" to share stuff with each other, because they sit on the same local network. Neither do they need servers, because the content lives in folders on their laptops. So, *technologically*, the features you identify in your post ensue. But what happens *socially*? Not much, it turns out. Maybe New Zealand is different that way, but If I go to a Brussels Café the chances of someone else running SSB from the same café are close to zero. So, nothing is enabled for me. To use SSB, i need to use the hack of [pubs](https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/faq/basics/pub): > pubs are servers that have a static IP address, are always online, and always follow you back when you follow them (thus growing their network). In this way, they can act as a waypoint for you to find the location of your friends and catch up with them. When you first get started on Scuttlebutt it can appear incredibly empty until you ""join"" a pub. In other words, I could not use SSB without ""the Internet"" (or moving to a hipsterish area of New Zealand, perhaps). None of this invalidates what you have to say. All I'm saying is this: let's all be very wary of technological determinism. Just because the tech enables something, it does not mean this something will happen. I am curious: do you have any experience of SSB working locally, as in your areas 1 and 2? Where? Do you have any observation to report as to what people use it for? Keep up the good work. Pasting the link to the SSB presentation video for the many folks who do not use it. https://vimeo.com/236358264" 15,53308,2019-05-10T12:17:19.727Z,9802,2,28,27,1,0,0,50.6,52837,anon3086952555,anon2682865457,"Hi @anon2682865457, I love this! I'm sure you've considered it already, but just in case: I think another really interesting use case for this is just local communities, even within well-connected areas. A fully localized mesh could be built up as a hub for all kinds of creativity that has a distinctly local flavor in a way that often the internet isn't optimized for (even though of course localized communities exist there, too). For a fictional, but really cool exploration of this I'd highly recommend the (still brand new) debut novel by Tim Maughan, Infinite Detail ([Goodreads](https://www.goodreads.com/book/sanon2696444391/40121978-infinite-detail)). Set in a kind of post-crash world without internet, there's a community there that uses a local mesh as the foundation for all kinds of local creative sharing from music to augmented reality installations in public space, out on the street. Not exactly what you're looking for, but I figured it might be close enough to your research interest that it might be worth taking a quick look there. That said, the notion of more resilient networking is a tempting one, even outside of purely military use - say in conflict/post-conflict or disaster settings (war zones, earthquakes, etc.), or even just in very remote locations where local file sharing can be really useful among (concurrent or time-shifted) visitors." 16,53490,2019-05-14T19:31:43.717Z,9802,1,28,27,2,1,0,65.6,52914,anon2682865457,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:11, topic:9802""] We actually just got our hands on a bunch of RaspberryPis at Blanon2066456771de, the cultural hub, workshop and co-working space we run in the harbor of Stockholm. Maybe we should extend a mesh network around the house and the harbor? I think @anon4004532087 might be interested in some meshing. [/quote] This sounds awesome! I'd be happy to include you in the potential collaborators for a the prototype stage at the end of the report for the research phase, does this sound good to you @anon4004532087?" 17,53491,2019-05-14T19:38:00.710Z,9802,0,28,27,1,1,0,10.6,52938,anon2682865457,anon3456498318,"[quote=""anon3456498318, post:12, topic:9802""] Check out [https://freifunk.net/en/ ](https://freifunk.net/en/) They seem to be the largest community that is active at the moment. They have been active for anon2373157426 a few years. [/quote] Yes, they are awesome! I've been considering getting in touch with them. Plan for now is to try it out in the nordics and then potentially expand. I've researched their Mesh-structure a bit and apparently their network structure makes it so that the entire network would act as a singular node for the SSB protocol. Will look further into it next week though :) I think [Guifi](https://guifi.net/) might be the largest network in the world though :star2: Hyperboria are cool too! Just saw that they're hosting a ""[Battle of the mesh](https://www.battlemesh.org/)"" event on July 8-14th too! > There are anon2373157426 a few P2P protocols or Delay Tolerant Networking systems available, but not very many that would be easy to adopt. At least I have not found a favourite yet. Freifunk seems to have a relatively robust solution going. Hmm! This I haven't heard about, what is it?" 18,53492,2019-05-14T19:43:16.799Z,9802,1,27,26,1,1,0,60.4,52837,anon2682865457,anon2682865457,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:14, topic:9802""] In other words, I could not use SSB without “the Internet” (or moving to a hipsterish area of New Zealand, perhaps). [/quote] It's true that you can't, at the moment, use SSB without wifi, thus the proposed merge with Mesh-Networks. This would make it so that you could be anywhere in a mesh-network region and be ""at the same cafe"" so to speak. Decentralized protocols would also solve the issue of mesh-networks running over https usually having a very big issue with stable connectivity since SSB is ""offline-first"" locally hosting the data. > I am curious: do you have any experience of SSB working locally, as in your areas 1 and 2? Where? Do you have any observation to report as to what people use it for? Nope! And that's why we are conducting this project of ZMesh, to explore the combination of P2P protocols and mesh-networks in a real life scenario, as it has never been done before, as of yet." 19,53493,2019-05-14T19:46:55.925Z,9802,0,29,28,1,1,0,10.8,53308,anon2682865457,anon3086952555,"[quote=""anon3086952555, post:15, topic:9802""] For a fictional, but really cool exploration of this I’d highly recommend the (still brand new) debut novel by Tim Maughan, Infinite Detail ([Goodreads](https://www.goodreads.com/book/sanon2696444391/40121978-infinite-detail)). Set in a kind of post-crash world without internet, there’s a community there that uses a local mesh as the foundation for all kinds of local creative sharing from music to augmented reality installations in public space, out on the street. [/quote] Coooooooooooool! :star2: :star2: :star2: Awesome recommendation! Will definitely try to get my hands on Infinite Detail! > That said, the notion of more resilient networking is a tempting one, even outside of purely military use - say in conflict/post-conflict or disaster settings (war zones, earthquakes, etc.), or even just in very remote locations where local file sharing can be really useful among (concurrent or time-shifted) visitors. Yes!! Definitely. I'm very keen to explore this aspect. Also from a resilience perspective, preparatory for the inevitable crash of the centralized communication structure which is the internet in its current form." 20,53537,2019-05-15T14:20:58.509Z,9802,1,29,28,2,0,0,35.8,53490,anon4004532087,anon2682865457,"I would be happy to be on the list even though at the moment there are too many things going on and I'm having a hard time focusing on this subject, might organize myself better soon and explore it more... I bet @anon921785107 would also be interested in collaborating <3 btw, I also heard recently about http://pjodd.se/ from from this %P9i5KKgtlzPR3ybqrvyCAdGoAGtwa+PHckimUYNyjaE=.sha256 @anon2682865457, it might be also relevant to you" 21,53575,2019-05-16T07:02:57.310Z,9802,0,29,28,2,2,0,45.8,53308,anon3379761435,anon3086952555,"[quote=""anon3086952555, post:15, topic:9802""] For a fictional, but really cool exploration of this I’d highly recommend the (still brand new) debut novel by Tim Maughan, Infinite Detail ([Goodreads](https://www.goodreads.com/book/sanon2696444391/40121978-infinite-detail)). [/quote] On my list. Thanks @anon3086952555! [quote=""anon2682865457, post:18, topic:9802""] It’s true that you can’t, at the moment, use SSB without wifi, thus the proposed merge with Mesh-Networks. [/quote] I do not see that as a severe problem. Rather, I was pointing out to a social network problem: a local social network will only work if enough _local_ people use it for it not to be an empty space. Until we went together to the matchmaking event in Stockholm, I had never had the pleasure to fire up Patchwork and see SSB users on my local network. People were taking screenshots, which means it does not happen often to others, either. In Belgium we have a hyperlocal social network called [Hoplr](https://www.hoplr.com/About). When you sign up, you have to add your address, and they check that you really live where you say you live. You then are added to the same database as everyone else, but you can only see, and interact with, people that live in your same neighborhood. And neighborhoods are small, at least in Brussels: they use a statistical unit called _quartier_, of which there are 145 in the city (1.3 million inhabitants). I am a member for my _quartier_, but the activity is not enough to sustain a real conversation, even through ""the Internet"". My corner of Hoplr has defaulted to a kind of hard-to-search Craigslist, with people selling used furniture and the like. Of course, local Hoplr and local SSB could be socially great, if everyone used it. But not everyone will adopt them until they are socially great, so we are stuck. The pubs solution makes SSB viable for me, but it would not be possible without ""the Internet""." 22,53581,2019-05-16T09:20:59.877Z,9802,0,29,28,2,1,0,45.8,53537,anon2682865457,anon4004532087,"[quote=""anon4004532087, post:20, topic:9802""] btw, I also heard recently about [http://pjodd.se/ ](http://pjodd.se/) from from this %P9i5KKgtlzPR3ybqrvyCAdGoAGtwa+PHckimUYNyjaE=.sha256 @anon2682865457, it might be also relevant to you [/quote] Yes! I'm from Malmö and know them anon2373157426 well, hoping to work with them too :)" 23,53999,2019-05-25T19:54:22.255Z,9802,0,24,23,1,0,0,9.8,52906,anon1593485621,anon2197402769,"I'm working on a project in New York that's using Pirate Box. The community around it seems to have died out but the technology and vision is beautiful. We're working to build what we're calling ""localized internets"" and This Mesh Grid concept is pretty wonderful. Extremely glad I came across it." 1,53995,2019-05-25T18:06:46.890Z,10006,0,14,13,5,0,0,42.8,53995,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"5G wireless technology is the great enabler of IoT. Can't happen without 5G and its huge increase in speed and latency. Most 5G is getting built around the high end of the spectrum where fast speed and huge data transfers abound but the waves travel such short distances and are easily interrupted by physical objects, that the transmitters need to be positioned everywhere. Ubiquitous. So far, no comprehensive studies have been produced about the public health implications of having this huge flow of data blasting everyone from the millions of anon2488317424 towers it will require. The IoT powered by 5G presents unprecedented opportunities for services, for surveillance and for security breaches. How much has the public weighed in on these questions? Do we even know the full implications so we can make informed choices? Is it inevitable regardless of what we think?" 2,53996,2019-05-25T18:08:48.605Z,10006,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,53995,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,China has already installed three hundred and fifty thousand 5G nodes. The US one tenth as many. I do not know the European deployment at this point. 1,53815,2019-05-23T16:24:48.786Z,9963,0,13,12,3,0,0,17.6,53815,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"I've been trying to get my head around what ""human centered' really means and anon2696444391 it ought to play out in the real world. I keep arriving back at increasing user control over their (our) own experience coupled with far less centralization of data." 2,53820,2019-05-23T17:00:34.139Z,9963,1,12,11,1,0,0,27.4,53815,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"European governments can individually or collectively make anon2863106368s of rules and regulations trying to get the huge companies to behave in what they regard as more civil ways, but as @anon2945747231 brings to our attention where Mark Scott of Politico.eu says in his [tweet set](https://twitter.com/markscott82/status/1131151004299407361), those huge operations like Google and Facebook just find ways to route around those rules. Or they pay the fines and move on with business as usual until the next fine. Meanwhile they [lobby extensively for those rules to be watered down](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/facebook-and-google-pressured-eu-experts-soften-fake-news-regulations-say-insiders/) so they are more favorable to their business models (which requires minimal transparency). And, according to [Investigate Europe](https://www.investigate-europe.eu/legislation-from-closed-chambers-anon2696444391-undemocratic-is-the-eu/), the EC buckles to that pressure, esp if the big banks want it that way. The privacy rules that require permission to gather and store personal information are a good start. But why not extend it to everything in one's online environment? In other words, Facebook, _you can't do anything at all with me or what I say on your platform without my permission_ and you have to create a tool set that gives me all the control I think I need. Because while I am not paying you money, I am paying you with my attention and while you might benefit from the illusion that this is a ""free"" commodity, in fact it is so valuable that you are now one of the biggest richest and most powerful companies in the world. My point here is, anon2696444391 is it ever going to become human-centered if things don't become that stranon2945747231nt?" 3,53825,2019-05-23T17:50:39.991Z,9963,0,9,8,1,0,0,21.8,53820,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"As an aside, the [Code of Practice](https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/code-practice-disinformation), that industry put together as a set of voluntary practices, is pretty much [a farce, according to the ""Sounding Board""](https://www.beuc.eu/documents/files/3OpinionoftheSoundingboard.pdf) written by a group put together by the EC specifically to critique the Code. As they write in the critique, ""As outlined by the Sounding Board’s previous written feedback and comments, the “Code of practice” as presented by the working group contains no common approach, no clear and meaningful commitments, no measurable objectives or KPIs, hence no possibility to monitor process, and no compliance or enforcement tool: it is by no means self-regulation, and therefore the Platforms, despite their efforts, have not delivered a Code of Practice."" The issue of pressure from Google and FB, stems from the fact that some of the orgs and companies involved in putting together the Code are significantly funded by Google and FB, and thus do not want to offend their benefactors to the point that they [withdraw their funding, which it has been reported, they did indeed threaten to do](https://www.cjr.org/the_media_today/tech-blackmail-eu-misinformation.php). So, don't look to such Codes as being any help in bringing about a ""human-centered Internet.""" 4,53877,2019-05-24T00:34:37.920Z,9963,0,7,6,1,0,0,66.4,53815,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"With the emergence of blockchain, Holochain, Scuttlebutt, mesh networks and more, it seems clear to me that along with user control, much more decentralization is also necessary. But right now most data gets stored in gigantic centralized data centers and servers. In reading some of the logs from the May 11 Workshop in Stockholm, decentralization was one of the main themes expressed by participants. I wonder if @anon4004532087 or @anon921785107 would consider elaborating on your concerns about the need for more decentralization?" 5,53953,2019-05-24T21:19:38.455Z,9963,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,53815,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Decentralization is being discussed in other parts of this forum, such as: https://anon1577251828.eu/t/building-my-own-browser-to-explore-decentralized-discovery/9920/6" 1,53712,2019-05-21T10:28:36.317Z,9939,0,27,26,25,0,0,130.4,53712,anon3828707713,anon3828707713,"We are in one of the consortia shaping the ECs Next Generation Internet (NGI) program, strategy, priorities etc for their investments/regulation. We are offering six-month paid Fellowships as part of our contribution to NGI. What we need are individuals coming in with a set of burning questions that they are exploring and have been for some time now. And can bring in a network of people also doing relevant work to share their own experiences and discuss them with others. Then collaboratively interpret the findings from the SSNA - Semantic Social Network Analysis. The data is open, the findings are open, software is opensource, platform is based on Discourse. Anyone welcome, all they need is an email address. The participants who go through the Internet of Humans process get invited to the matchmaking event happening in Brussels this fall in time for the next round of collective applications for larger pots of financing. Including but not limited to the next round of Horizon 2020 applications, this is the process:
![59|690x224](upload://juuE6eFKoQ3jbFE8KxYJLCnUqlJ.png) ## What the fellows do: The fellow contacts people who they think are relevant/should be in this conversation and reaches out to them. The fellow then produces a shortlist of people who are interested in participating in the IOH collaborative discovery, sensemaking and matchmaking process as outlined above. We try to make it simple for the people you get on board: you give us a list of names of people who you as a Fellow have reached out to so that they are on board and know to expect an email from Edgeryders. An Edgeryders team member then calls them and has long in-depth conversation/deep interview. The team member edits transcript/notes from the call it into a skeleanon2863106368 post with a first-hand perspective of the person interviewed. They review the skeleanon2863106368, make edits and then post under their own name on the platform. They then respond to questions in the comments. They also read 2-3 posts submitted by peers also doing interesting work, and leave thoughtful comments with questions, key information, deeper reflections to help move the thinking /conversation forward. The whole thing all ends with a collaboratively built community event. ""Collaborative"" as in: every individual proposes to host a session on something they want to learn, teach or build. Session proposals get developed/refined through P2P input. The event sessions are documented online, conversations follow after the event and they are processed into reports here on the Edgeryders platform. In the run up to the event we all help to bring people to the table who can in turn help further participants with their own work (based on their session content). In the form of Matchmaking and proposal building sessions we help people generate high quality concept notes and meaningful consortia for EC funding and other opportunities for collective fundraising.*** ## List of Fellows’ deliverables: 1. Participate in one physical event in Brussels at the beginning of the fellowship to learn more about the project and anon2696444391 to align with the work/activities the team is doing. When: End of June/early July. (t.b.c with team & fellows) 2. Commit to the 1-a-day: You come up with one status update with url to a high quality story, or discussion to share via your own social media account. This helps us to highlight and make it easy for new people to find their way to the best discussions, events etc in IOH. *When: throughout your fellowship.* 3. Participate in a remote meeting/ video call/virtual cafe: Personal interview: a deeper, reflective conversation about your work with Edgeryders team and the other fellow (we have two fellows at a time). *When: by May 30 (t.b.c with team & fellow)* 4. Write your Deep Story: Incorporate what surfaced during the personal interview into a deeper, reflective post introducing your work and the path leading to it, questions you have, things you struggle with etc. Some examples: [Anthony](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/anon2696444391-open-insulin-works-to-open-source-science-and-medicine/519), [Winnie](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/my-first-month-as-an-opencare-community-fellow/6338) and [Ybe](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/a-bus-tour-for-a-trauma-informed-world/762), 5. Recruit people: Give us a list of min 15 people doing interesting work relevant to the IOH/ongoing conversations on the IOH forum on [anon1577251828.eu](http://anon1577251828.eu). The people on the list are ones you have reached out to and engaged to participate in the collaborative discovery, sensemaking and fundraising process on the [anon1577251828.eu](http://anon1577251828.eu) platform. What they get: new information, structured collective intelligence and wisdom around a topic of interest to them, growing personal network, invitation to facilitated/well curated matchmaking and proposal development events organised by the Edgeryders team. Important: the people you suggest should be based in Europe or have really strong ties to the continent in terms of personal and professional network. We also ask that your list is somewhat gender balanced. The people you recruit would be committing to do the following: * Come to three video calls (interview, discuss findings from SSNA, prepare event session) * Post their own story and respond to comments posted on it… * Read and leave thoughtful comments on stories of others ( contributions should be thoughtful & rich: have to have value added for both participants and the team in terms of new information or perspectives to further the thinking/learning with quality). * ideally, they would also do one session in a final event, but this is not necessary. 6. Write six Internet of Humans Dispatch posts: Follow the conversation on the platform and highlight key contributions and insights emerging from it in a post. 7. Participate in a remote meeting/ video call/virtual cafe: Discussion of findings from ethnographic-coding /SNNA analysis. *When:* TBD 8. Participate in a remote meeting/ video call/virtual cafe: To propose/develop one theme/track for the final IOH event weaving together key threads and a cluster of people/participants. 9. Co-write introduction to the event and detailed description your own event track in the Program for the final event. *When:* TBD 10. Participate in one physical event at the end of the fellowship to present your findings and hand over the reigns to the next batch of fellows. 11. Wrap up fellowship with one thoughtful post summarising fellowship experience, what you got out of it and your own recommendations for next batch of fellows to move the collective IOH experience & community forward. *When:* TBD **The bursary & travel support:** * We have a total of 6 fellowships to award at 10,000 EUR per fellow. Payment is done in tranches against submission of listed deliverables. * Each fellow is eligible for 400 Eur in travel support. Up to this amount in total is reimbursed to the fellow with due justification *prior to incurring the expense*, and is reimbursed after the travel has been conducted against receipts (with VAT) and documentation (written description of purpose of travel and what was learned/achieved as a result in a post on the platform). _**The duration of the fellowship is 6 months.**_ ## The Paperwork/administrative process we need you to follow: **Step 1. We send you a Contract** You are sent the draft your contract. You Read it through and if you agree, let the research coordinator @anon **Step 2. Time tracking** At the end of agreed period you need to report your time and describe the activities. To do this, we use the FreeAgent software. Ask us to create an account for you. Go to “Work → Time Tracking”. You have now three options to proceed. In all cases, select the work package as the FreeAgent “Task” to which your worktime belongs. This is mandatory according to the reporting requirements we have. * **Option 1** : Select project and task and click “Start Timer”. This will use FreeAgent as a time tracker. To stop tracking, click on the “pause” butanon2863106368 that appears next to your newly created timeslip. * **Option 2** : Select project and task; fill in the worktime field and if necessary the date. Click “Add Timeslip” (the “Start Timer” butanon2863106368 changes its function when you add a worktime figure). This allows to record the worktime for a single day. * **Option 3** : Click “Add Weekly Timesheet”. This allows to efficiently take over your worktime tracking from another tracking application, and may be your preferred choice if you are already using one. Add a comment: a few words as to what you used the time for, referring to tasks and deliverables as much as possible. You can also add a link to what you produced, if applicable. For this, use the comment field at the bottom of the timeslip form. Inform Marina that you finished reporting time for a certain period. She will export your timesheet. **Step 3. Invoicing (you do this twice during your fellowship)** Create your invoice. The time reported needs to correspond to the amount allocated for your work. Our standard hourly rate is 41,86 eur. To create the invoice you can use [this template](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uTZl6ZC-zJSDsQY9-sdmGkv762ECcI5HytktNk9cshE/edit). Send your invoice to Marina. She will attach it to the exported timesheet, invite you to sign using SignRequest and import it back to FreeAgent to request the payment. ***Important to know about the IOH matchmaking and collaborative proposal writing/fundraising !!!*** *The people who participate have to do the actual work of putting together the proposals - we just save them time and money they would otherwise have to throw into the process of trying to participate in EC funding bids. The work has to start months ahead of time, with someone at their end committing to a structured process and taking responsibility for ensuring that their organisation respects everyone else’s time - by e.g submitting their parts in a shared document that is curated by someone who knows what they are doing* *Our initial point of departure is EC funding applications for the next batch of Horizon2020 applications. That said, the process we have designed is intended to feed into other community submitted opportunities. *People who have participated in previous Edgeryders run collective discovery and sensemaking processes have continued to build on the relationships formed. Some have gone on to do interesting work, others have received professional opportunities such as got invited into good consortia etc. The unMonastery, OpenCare. Others have continued to use the Edgeryders platform/instances of it for their own work e.g Winnie building a biohacking community connecting counterculture labs in SF (Openinsulin) with labs in Ghent, Geneva etc - at one point discussing with city of Milan about setting up a patient-owned microbrewery for insulin in the city.*" 2,53809,2019-05-23T15:38:59.672Z,9939,1,21,20,1,0,0,14.2,53712,anon388720932,anon3828707713,Thank you for this work! This sounds like an interesting opportunity :star_struck:. anon2696444391 can one become a Internet of Human fellow? 3,53826,2019-05-23T18:14:03.079Z,9939,0,20,19,1,0,0,9.0,53809,anon3203746736,anon388720932,I would start by commenting and participating here and we go from there.. 4,53913,2019-05-24T12:09:23.119Z,9939,1,19,18,1,0,0,28.8,53712,anon388720932,anon3828707713,i will start with my burning question and see if this kind of research fits in this discussion :grinning:. i want to find out if there is a trend towards user centric content in web marketing. by that i mean designing web content that meets user needs. less quantity more targeted more precise around researched discovered user needs. I want to understand if there is more budget allocated to this kind of marketing. What are the main barriers inside teams to put in place the workflow that produces this kind of content. I have been doing a small research among law firms this year. this is the [research planning doc](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LBf00LQecPoYDrnREwUMdDbHA4io8MQNtJVVAnRS78A/edit#)..i would be happy to continue this line of research and share the results. also bring with me a network of consultants that are doing advocacy to shift towards a more ethical web content marketing. 5,53949,2019-05-24T19:17:10.468Z,9939,0,16,15,3,0,0,18.2,53913,anon3203746736,anon388720932,My suggestion is to go into the [Tell Your Stor](https://anon1577251828.eu/c/ioh/tell-your-story)y area and...tell your story! 1,53646,2019-05-18T12:10:29.287Z,9930,0,13,12,3,0,0,137.6,53646,anon659222949,anon659222949,"This is directed to you who might have heard me talk about Edgeryders at Data Terra Nemo. Basically, the Internet of Humans project can be relevant for you in a few different ways: 1. We will run collaborative proposal writing workshops, mainly to go for EU funds 2. We award fellowships with travel bursaries 3. We can direct you towards funds in the [NGI ecosystem](https://www.ngi.eu/) 4. We will run events like the one we just ran in Stockholm, connecting you to people who you could collaborate with to go for big funding from bodies like the EU Horizon 2020, which requires ambitious applications and multi-party consortia. 5. We also work with policymakers and institutions who need to understand what you are building in order to create funding calls to match it. 6. We interface with policymakers and institutions to proactively influence better legislation to try to prevent legislators from breaking what we're working on Your first step towards all of this is simple. Just make a post about yourself and what you are working on. We will then be able to tag you and draw you in when interesting things happen. Our next big collaborative proposal writing session will be in October." 1,53634,2019-05-17T14:50:32.376Z,9924,0,13,12,1,0,0,67.6,53634,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"The EU Article 13 copyright law is controversial. And I think it is fair to say that many, if not most, or even all, people in here think it is a bad law with far too much restriction, and largely unenforceable. What is wrong with Article 13 and what should a good copyright law look like?" 2,53639,2019-05-17T15:49:21.286Z,9924,0,12,11,1,0,0,52.4,53634,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Some would even argue that there should not be any copyright law. But realistically, that is not going to happen. Intellectual property is here to stay. But this law's restrictions are extreme: it doesn't even allow for 'fair use.' I know Europe never really had a fair use exception, but this would have been a good time to put one in. Instead they went the other way completely. The following blog post from our own @anon3379761435 illustrates the clumsiness and counter-productive nature of the rule. In it he tells the story of anon2696444391 he wasn't able to photograph an old poster in the House of European History in Brussels, a museum dedicated to spreading knowledge and understanding about being European _to Europeans_: http://www.cottica.net/2019/05/15/captured-anon2696444391-deep-the-european-union-lost-its-way-on-copyright/" 3,53640,2019-05-17T16:27:23.570Z,9924,0,12,11,1,0,0,7.4,53634,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"The main copyright holders I know are musicians who write and record their own music. One is East Bay Ray, the guitarist for the punk band, The Dead Kennedys. Another is a trio of angelic folk sanon2945747231rs, The Wailin' Jennys. In both cases they have seen their revenue from recordings drop down to negligible numbers over the past 20 yrs. This means they have to tour much more in order to be full time musicians. Ray is 70 years old. The Jennys all became mothers over the past decade. Touring is much more of a hardship when you are a mother, and sometimes it just isn't doable. Will this new article 13 law help them and other copyright holders earn their living from their recordings? Not unless it succeeds in forcing YouTube to stop allowing people to watch copyrighted material for free and they succeed in stopping stream-ripping sites from searching them for items to rip. I do not see anon2696444391 they are going to accomplish that. As of last fall, [YouTube had done nothing about it.](https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2018/09/10/mpaa-piracy-stream-ripping/) Meanwhile, smaller sites may soon be required to pre-approve posts and links uploaded from their users, an expense many cannot afford. And this in the service of stopping piracy that hardly occurs on small sites anyway." 4,53645,2019-05-18T08:51:22.752Z,9924,1,11,10,1,0,0,57.2,53634,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,"Would be nice to post this direct question in different channels as well. To do that an image would be good. @anon3203746736 anon2696444391 about this: _[redacted]_ Just took a screenshot of the first view of imagesearch in Google when you search for copyright. Should I add it to your post?" 5,53650,2019-05-18T14:20:17.691Z,9924,0,10,9,1,0,0,7.0,53645,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,Sure that's fine. Thanks! 6,53654,2019-05-19T07:05:26.670Z,9924,0,9,8,1,0,0,96.8,53634,anon3005461236,anon3203746736,Perhaps remove the possibility to pursue legal messure on copyright if the material is made public. 7,53662,2019-05-19T19:09:13.507Z,9924,0,3,2,0,0,0,45.6,53654,anon3197437925,anon3005461236,"That's a good point actually :) @anon3203746736 and @anon1753543892, posting a screenshot that includes copyrighted works of simple copyright symbols is copyright infranon2945747231ment and should not be done in a post about copyright even though it perfectly illustrates what's wrong with the system. All of this is hilarious, so let's find it funny :rofl: Anyway, I removed the screenshot image from the posts above, and please choose a self-created graphics or a freely licensed one (with proper attribution) instead." 8,53663,2019-05-19T19:22:49.529Z,9924,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,53662,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,I didn't notice it was a copyrighted image... 9,53670,2019-05-20T08:38:38.945Z,9924,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,53662,anon1753543892,anon3197437925,"ok, sorry, I have been dealing with copyright more in the art-context and there this would have been ok as a comment itself. But for wider publishing, I see anon2696444391 that would be a problem, even so, the publicity of getting into an argument based on that might be interesting in itself. Sorry if I created a problem." 10,53695,2019-05-20T21:08:19.380Z,9924,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,53670,anon3197437925,anon1753543892,"Not a problem. :) We never had any copyright related complaint against Edgeryders so far, so there is no immediate ""danger"". I'm just careful b/c I've seen copyright trolling in other spaces. For example, a friend had to pay 700 EUR due to improperly attributing a licence-free photo of ordinary carrots. Typical German Abmahnwahnsinn, though [that ""business model"" was later scaled down](https://www.e-recht24.de/news/urheberrecht/10029-pixelio-urteil-endlich-wende-in-abmahnfaellen.html) by some court." 1,53232,2019-05-08T13:31:18.124Z,9868,0,25,24,2,0,0,120.0,53232,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Hello I am Maria, I am here at Edgeryders and the Human Internet project in particular as a community manager. I also build electromagnetic sculptures, collaborate with physicists to teleport art pieces in virtual galleries or do inclusive design research to lower entry barriers for information, services and educational applications. I love to participate in and facilitate interdisciplinary communication and exchanges. Therefore I am excited about the type of community-driven research here at Edgeryders. I have an inherent urge to find points of connections between topics and people thinking about those topics, which I call being a “compulsive connector”. I love to recommend books and texts as well as potential collaboration or conversation partners. If you want to discuss an idea or help to formulate headlines, concepts or questions to connect to other people to make your project grow I am very happy to help. After my A-levels I started studying physics in Heidelberg, with the naive goal to understand everything, to than decide to change to fine art in Dresden to have more time to appreciate the beautiful models and think about their implications, from where, after participation in the FAST programme (Framing Art Science and Technology) I went to the RCA in London to do a Master in “Information Experience Design” to focus more on the design and development of “Entry Points” and “points of Connection” for others combining the approaches and tools of fine art, design, new technologies and scientific models. I conceptualised, realised and exhibited multiple interactive sculptures and installations across Europe and worked as a UX design researcher for example with the Helen Hamlyn Centre for design or for the financial education startup “Gimi”. In 2018 I relocated to Stockholm and am now an artist in residence at the comunity and culture hub “Blanon2066456771de”. If you are interested you can find some of my artistic works on my website [mariaeuler.com](http://mariaeuler.com/). Since 2010 I have lived in 6 different cities and 3 different countries in Europe and I very much appreciate being able to do that and the experiences and encounters I had and have while still being able to keep contact to my friends from school and later university across borders. However, sometimes I am questioning the effect of being disconnected from long term political and cultural discussions and participation due to this “modern nomad” lifestyle shared by so many of our generation, which is another reason I hope we can help to develop this more human-centric internet here at the Human Internet project. I believe strongly in international collaboration, exchange and friendships and hope we can help to create systems that lives up the reality of the transnational lifes we are leading. I am looking forward to more communication, Maria" 2,53233,2019-05-08T13:48:07.903Z,9868,0,22,21,1,0,0,9.4,53232,anon1753543892,anon1753543892,"Edgeryders is a multilingual platform, therefore I will add a short version in my mother anon2863106368gue as well: Hallo, Ich bin Maria und bin hier auf Edgeryder als Community Manager. Sonst bin ich interdisziplinäre Künstlerin und mache Design Forschungsprojekte. Ich habe nach dem Abitur angefangen Physik in Heidelberg zu studieren, dann jedoch in Freie Kunst gewechselt um mehr Zeit und Freiraum zu haben für die Schönheit und Implikationen wissenschaftlicher Modelle. Schließlich habe ich meinen master in ""Information Experience Design"" am Royal College of Art in London gemacht. Ich konzeptualisiere und realisiere interactive Installationen die Kunst und Wissenschaft verbinde und stelle diese aus. Außerdem habe ich als Design Researcher mit dem Helen Hamlyn Center für Design und zum beispiel füf das Finanzielle Bildung startup ""Gimi"" gearbeitet. Ich habe in den letzten 10 Jahren in 6 Stödten in 3 Ländern gelebt und es ist sehr wichtig für mich nicht nur Kontakt zu den menschen zu halten die ich dort treffe, sonder auch nicht den Anschluss and politische und kulturelle Diskussionen zu verlieren. Ich hoffe wir könne hier daran arbeiten Systeme zu entwickeln die modernen Lebenswirklichkeiten und menschlichen Werten entsprechen. Derzeit lebe ich in Stockholm. I verbinde gerne Themen und Menschen und helfe Konzepte, Fragen und Überschriften zu formulieren um andere zu erreichen damit Projekte wachsen können. ich freue mich mit euch zu kommunizieren und zu forschen, Maria" 3,53262,2019-05-09T09:28:23.318Z,9868,1,19,18,1,0,0,58.8,53232,anon294806887,anon1753543892,"Maria, meet @anon2633124927, researcher at UCL School of Slavonic and East European Studies, and a team member in Wellbeing in Europe. He spent a few good years in Berlin a while back and is very much interested in the German side of socio-political issues in Europe, which is why he's seeing an opportunity to build a German language community in the project(s). Also speaks German! Just wanting you to meet, since we'll be working across in our projects :-)" 4,53263,2019-05-09T09:37:04.931Z,9868,0,18,17,1,0,0,53.6,53262,anon1753543892,anon294806887,"Thank you @anon294806887 for the introduction. @anon2633124927 Ich freue mich darauf zusammenzuarbeiten :)" 5,53360,2019-05-13T11:31:01.016Z,9868,1,17,16,2,0,0,18.4,53232,anon2633124927,anon1753543892,"Hallo Maria! Ich freue mich auch darauf, mit dir zu arbeiten. Ich schreibe im Moment mein Story über Gesundheit für die [Care Stories Kategorie](https://anon1577251828.eu/t/about-the-care-stories-category/79). Ich habe seit langem nicht auf Deutsch geschrieben. Ich hoffe, dass es Sinn macht!" 6,53590,2019-05-16T14:53:15.657Z,9868,0,13,12,1,0,0,7.6,53360,anon1753543892,anon2633124927,"Wunderbar! Ich freu mich schon auf deine Geschichte. Ich selber habe in den lezten Jahren auch meist auf Englisch geschrieben, vorallem was professionelle Themen angeht. Interessant wie sich das Gefühl für die Sprache verändert. (und für die deutsche Tastatur, der Austausch von y und z macht mich verrückt)" 1,53393,2019-05-13T15:50:06.335Z,9890,1,19,18,2,0,0,123.8,53393,anon1348216222,anon1348216222,"I found this community via a mention on SSB. I work in academic technology and am concerned that large capitalist platforms both favor consumption over creation and provide a lever by which global computer networks are becoming a frightening instrument of control. I wish I could do more, but I lack both the coding skills to build the tools I think the world needs and the salesmanship to convince anyone that they are important, but I'm sure there must be a better way than what we have." 2,53405,2019-05-13T18:26:17.422Z,9890,1,19,18,1,1,0,58.8,53393,anon3197437925,anon1348216222,"[quote=""anon1348216222, post:1, topic:9890""]I … am concerned that large capitalist platforms both favor consumption over creation and provide a lever by which global computer networks are becoming a frightening instrument of control.[/quote] For a bit of a fresh perspective, it just occurred to me that both of these problems are not problems with just the current Internet but with pretty much everything in Western (and Westernized) societies. _Everything_ is unhealthy and has been used as an instrument of control in the interest of corporate profits and state profits (i.e. tax revenue via GDP growth). Examples include: * the industrialized food system, which includes massive advertising for unhealthy eatable stuff, heavily processed an addictive food, industrially grown ""organic"" products, commercialized ""fair trade"" products with hollow promises and branded basic food items (which did not exist until the 1920s / 1930s) * the waste management system, with contracts setting the incentives against political measures for trash reduction, as the promise a certain amount of (profitable) trash to the collection companies … which then use the plastic for example like free fuel and just burn it in power stations to profit from the electricity (I know this in detail from a certain medium-sized city over here …) * delusional advertising on for-profit TV stations … while this was a point of discourse in the late 90s here in Germany, now everyone has just become used to it * the housing market, which has in many places morphed from a market to fulfill the basic need of accommodation to a market to fulfill the desire of investors and landlords for ROI / profits * … and there is of course more, you name it That's just to illustrate: the Internet is going the only way that has been prepared for it by an industrial, oligopolist, capital-intensive, consumption-driven economic system. It's not the Internet's fault, it's about bigger forces that now control the Internet as well. And my guess is that we won't get rid of the issue without a major overhaul (or breakdown) of capitalism itself …" 3,53448,2019-05-14T12:38:56.983Z,9890,1,13,12,1,1,0,12.6,53405,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:2, topic:9890""] *Everything* is unhealthy and has been used as an instrument of control in the interest of corporate profits and state profits (i.e. tax revenue via GDP growth). [/quote] This is a profound intuition... though one that is not necessarily super-actionable. It would be great to find low-hanging fruits of things that can be done here and now, without invoking systemic change. I am not necessarily against systemic change, but it can take a very long time!" 4,53455,2019-05-14T13:29:38.220Z,9890,2,13,12,1,0,0,62.6,53448,anon3197437925,anon3379761435,"Sure, we'll get to the actionable items in a short while :) I just think that there is also value in attempting a ""purely academic"" understanding of the situation first. Because whether one thinks ""everything is anon2373157426 alright and just Internet governance is messed up right now"" or ""everything is perverted by a drive for profit, and that includes the Internet"" will inform what actionable items to choose. For example: in the first case one might try to utilize state institutions to improve Internet governance, while in the second case one might rather focus on P2P / decentralized new infrastructures because one would see state institutions as the supporters and enablers of the profit-driven takeover of all areas of life for decades now, with anon2488317424 hope for a fast systemic change." 5,53467,2019-05-14T15:05:54.934Z,9890,0,13,12,1,0,0,52.6,53455,anon3203746736,anon3197437925,I agree that the internet's problem is fully analogous to today's unchecked capitalism (emphasis on unchecked). Both are on winner-take-all tracks that I think are proving to be ruinous. 6,53512,2019-05-15T08:26:33.692Z,9890,0,11,10,1,1,0,7.2,53455,anon3379761435,anon3197437925,"[quote=""anon3197437925, post:4, topic:9890""] I just think that there is also value in attempting a “purely academic” understanding of the situation first. Because whether one thinks “everything is anon2373157426 alright and just Internet governance is messed up right now” or “everything is perverted by a drive for profit, and that includes the Internet” will inform what actionable items to choose. [/quote] Oh, absolutely agree. Le't say that, as the broken/corrupt quota of the system increases, the list of actionable stuff gets shortened towards an empty set." 1,53359,2019-05-13T11:17:10.805Z,9882,0,19,18,7,0,0,158.8,53359,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"As a thank you gift for the lovely [Internet of Humans matchmaking event](/t/9705), held on Saturday in Stockholm, I thought I would make an early harvest of the IOH conversation on this forum. It's only a _social_ network, not a social semantic one, because no ethno coding has yet taken place. But still, we have 58 unique contributors, that authored 347 posts in 45 topics. In total, the nascent corpus is already 44K words long (**UPDATE** – 8 hours later, same day, we have 60 unique contributors, 365 posts in 47 topics, and 46K words. This does not yet include the documentation from the Stockholm event). And here's the network: ![image|690x559](upload://fRYC6LU5p87INbY9tbl2lc0y0tA.png) It has 58 nodes, one for each contributor to the debate, and 120 edges (**UPDATE** – 8 hours later, on the same date, the graph had 60 nodes and 126 edges. I have not update the figure.). Node color maps to unweighted degree, i.e. the number of people with which each of us has direct interaction. A warmer color indicates higher degree. The most connected person is, unsurprisingly, the community manager @anon3203746736, followed by @anon659222949, me and @anon1753543892. @anon3197437925, @anon2682865457, @anon1965424313, @anon3086952555 and @anon3214242932x are also anon2373157426 active. Most of the others have only 1-4 connections. Notice the ""northern star"" configuration, with a lot of the Swedes gathered around Hugi. As the conversation develops, its social network will continue to change with each post we write. I will post periodic updates for everyone to see. :slight_smile: also ping @anon" 2,53361,2019-05-13T11:35:39.624Z,9882,1,17,16,1,0,0,13.4,53359,anon659222949,anon3379761435,Thank you Alberto. Lovely to see. What are you using to make these maps? 3,53363,2019-05-13T12:38:35.523Z,9882,0,16,15,1,0,0,23.2,53361,anon3379761435,anon659222949,http://tulip.labri.fr/TulipDrupal/ 4,53383,2019-05-13T14:45:09.756Z,9882,0,15,14,1,0,0,8.0,53359,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,This chart may come in handy for us in sanon2696444391ing the Commission that we are underway with something substantial. 5,53495,2019-05-14T19:55:29.909Z,9882,0,11,10,1,0,0,52.2,53359,anon2682865457,anon3379761435,"Awesome! Thanks for sharing, looking forwards to follow the updates :cherry_blossom:" 1,53167,2019-05-07T03:24:25.415Z,9858,0,10,9,48,0,0,287.0,53167,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Or can you be one or the other depending on whether it is to your advantage, which is what Facebook especially wants to do. Newcomers - please [sign up](https://communities.anon1577251828.eu/login) and join the conversation!" 2,53168,2019-05-07T03:43:19.630Z,9858,1,10,9,4,0,0,72.0,53167,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"A platform is content neutral, like the phone company, and does not interfere in any way with the content of what gets said on their networks (wiretapping in criminal cases is different). A publisher makes editorial choices and takes responsibility for the consequences of that content. It used to be a pretty clear distinction until online conversation networks came along. In the early days, those of us who managed those online conversation networks, including big companies like America Online, argued that we shouldn't be held liable for everything that the users say to each other, because for one thing, we would have to pre-approve everything that got posted, which most users would find intolerable. Or we would have to actively censor whatever we found objectionable. So for the most part people said whatever they wanted and dealt with the liability or libel issues themselves. In 1996 in the USA, Congress passed the Communications Decency Act that did a number of things, mainly related to obscenity and minors, but included section 230 which make online services immune from liability for the content posted on those companies' sites. In 1997 the Supreme Court struck down most of the CDA, but kept Section 230. This was all before social media as we know it was even dreamed up. So into this legal framework came social media operations that gained audience far beyond anything any other online service had ever seen or even likely dreamed of. And with the advent of the Facebook 'news feed' began the process we find ourselves in today where the companies actively manipulate what we see on our screens to maximize our desire to stay on the site, or return to it often, and to feed us a lot of what we want to see and hear so we might buy the things the advertisers sanon2696444391 to us. Whether they intended it or not, this actively contributes to a more polarized society according to numerous studies and essays. And now, Facebook has banned extremist individuals outright. So are they a platform or a publisher? They say they are a platform when they want that shielding from the law and they admit to being a publisher when they want to get rid of what they consider to be hate speech or people who espouse violence. But when the New Zealand mass shooter spread that video all around Facebook, Facebook used the shield of a platform to avoid liability for spreading it, but then they wanted to be a publisher when they banned it. And let us remember that while that video was viewed on their platform millions of times, they made money off the ads that ran along with it." 3,53169,2019-05-07T03:44:59.750Z,9858,0,8,7,1,0,0,51.6,53167,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"This [article on Vox](https://www.vox.com/technology/2019/5/6/18528250/facebook-speech-conservatives-trump-platform-publisher) does a good job of explaining the situation.. Meanwhile [Facebook is tussling with the EU](https://www.politico.eu/article/inside-story-facebook-fight-against-european-regulation/) on a number of regulatory fronts, mainly to keep the EU from regulating them at all, although they seem to be willing to accept a anon2488317424 of it. For now FB can play the neutral platform card. According to the above Politico article, ""The EU law governing responsibility for content on social media platforms is the 2000 e-commerce directive, which does not hold companies like Google and Facebook liable for illegal content posted by their users. Companies must take down illegal content once it has been flagged as such, but they are not required to actively prevent it from being uploaded."" But this is not at all settled. What do you think should happen?" 4,53195,2019-05-07T13:21:07.157Z,9858,1,8,7,1,1,0,11.6,53168,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"[quote=""anon3203746736, post:2, topic:9858""] So are they a platform or a publisher? [/quote] The debate on Internet regulation teems with these questions. Is Uber a tech company or a taxi company? Is Airbnb a platform or a hotel business? I am fresh from a long conversation with Amelia Andersdotter (@anon1732761404). She explained that the legal consequences of sticking a label on things are very far-reaching. If I understand her reasoning, she advocates: 1. Taking a long, hard look at the emergent consequences of the way these companies do business before taking action. 1. Mapping these consequences against the values that we would like society to uphold. This can be messy. In the case of Uber, some people dislike the relatively low compensation that many drivers appear to get for their time. But some others point to the fact that Uber has made taxi travel safe for Indian women. Women do not like to take taxis in India, because drivers have been known to demand more money than agreed once the car is in motion and the client has left the safety of her house. There have been cases of harassment, too. Uber does not have these problems, because (1) the price or a ride is established and (2) the identity of the driver is known, and the company is credible when it threatens consequences against misbehaving drivers. 1. Only after this move in to regulate. I am probably representing this anon2373157426 clumsily, Amelia herself could do it much better." 5,53209,2019-05-07T18:44:18.069Z,9858,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,53195,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"Often regulation is one or more steps behind the innovative entity that acts in ways the call out for some regulation. In Uber's case, it does seem like the taxi cab industry, at least in the US, was so complacent that it was ripe for serious disruption. With AirBnB it's more complicated because an unintended consequence is anon2696444391 much it has changed the rental picture for local residents, which has large social impact. In Facebook's case, they seem to just want to run out ahead of any regulation, because, I think, they want to constantly adjust their models to maximize their ROI from all the data gathering. I can sympathize with FB's view in a sense. Back when I started and managed sfgate.com, it was owned by a company that had thousands of employees, both union and non-union. The unionized workers were represented by no less than 14 separate unions. Naturally they wanted to represent my employees too. I, as a lifelong union sympathizer and former union member myself (Machinists International), thought that someday it would be appropriate for them to represent the workers on my crew. But not at first because they would enforce rules written long ago for a different industry with clear divisions of labor and that would stifle the quick movements we required to be innovative. And in that sense, unions function kind of like regulators. But then, we were essentially giving news away to the public with a small number of ads thrown in and we were not doing any deep data mining on our users.." 6,53210,2019-05-07T18:56:44.784Z,9858,0,8,7,1,0,0,51.6,53167,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Author and columnist Cory Doctorow just published [this column in Locus](https://locusmag.com/2019/05/cory-doctorow-steering-with-the-windshield-wipers/) discussing anon2696444391 anti-trust laws have been so weakened that they no longer get applied to breaking up really big monopolistic companies when the real problem is the sheer size and hegemony of those companies. "" Concentration leads to all kinds of bad things. Take Facebook, a company whose day is long past. People fucking *hate* Facebook, which is why 15,000,000 people left the service in 2018, primarily 15-to-34 year-olds, way up from 2016. And where did most of those people go? Instagram, acquired by Facebook in 2012. Facebook has a privacy problem and we should regulate to fix it, but the reality is that for as long as people who care about Facebook’s privacy dumpster fire end up on another Facebook-owned site, Facebook will slowwalk any kind of privacy protections."" He then goes on a long excursion about Article 13 and copyright, where he makes the point that forcing these companies to monitor all their comments and function as a censor will be so expensive that it will mean breaking them up - the real need - won't happen because smaller entities won't be able to deal with that kind of workload. ""If we appoint tech giants with the unimaginably expensive civic duty of policing all online speech for copyright infranon2945747231ment (or “extremism” or what have you), that will make it impossible to unbiggen Big Tech: we won’t be able to shrink them into pieces small enough to manage, because those pieces won’t be able to manage their public duties.""" 7,53293,2019-05-09T16:44:28.954Z,9858,1,6,5,1,0,0,56.2,53167,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"This [New York Times editorial by Facebook co-founder Chris Hughes](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/09/opinion/sunday/chris-hughes-facebook-zuckerberg.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share) is well worth your time. Relevant to this topic he says, "" Mark used to insist that Facebook was just a “social utility,” a neutral platform for people to communicate what they wished. Now he recognizes that Facebook is both a platform and a publisher and that it is inevitably making decisions about values. The company’s own lawyers have argued in court that Facebook is [a publisher](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/02/facebook-mark-zuckerberg-platform-publisher-lawsuit) and thus entitled to First Amendment protection.""" 8,53294,2019-05-09T19:08:15.245Z,9858,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,53293,anon3828707713,anon3203746736,"Yes I read it, makes sense to me. Will be interesting to see which politicians/ regulators pursue this line...FB has means to blackmail/disinform alot of people into falling in line with FBs agenda." 9,53298,2019-05-10T02:43:39.697Z,9858,0,6,5,1,0,0,51.2,53294,anon3203746736,anon3828707713,"Hughes recommends that the government set standards for what can and can't be said. I think that barks up the wrong tree. A lot of FBs problems could be solved by giving everyone much more control over their experience, for instance let people do the filtering they want. But that runs counter to their business model of creating ever more pinpoint profiles against which they sell ads at ever better prices." 1,53064,2019-05-02T17:15:14.879Z,9847,0,12,11,10,0,0,112.4,53064,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Her hour long conversation with The Verge Editor-in-Chief Nilay Patel is essential to understanding the commercial driver of today's Internet. Or you can read the book of course, but that will take a lot longer. She lays it out there clearly enough for anyone to understand. https://www.c-span.org/video/?456637-1/after-words-shoshana-zuboff" 2,53065,2019-05-02T17:17:24.258Z,9847,1,10,9,1,0,0,12.0,53064,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"And of course it begs the question, do you know what you are trading off when you use these services? Are you asked for consent for all the data that is gathered and do you give it? Her answer, in the interview is, ""we don't know and it's not because we are stupid. It's because they are designed for us not to know."" In addition, she mentions a couple of consumer surveys where, when informed of what companies who sell ""smart"" devices actually do with their data, 70 to 80 % of respondents say they do not want it."" So the business model is predicated on consumers not knowing. She mentions that doll, I think it was the Cayla (banned in Germany for being a spy tool), that monitors your kids in their rooms and says that, unbeknownst to consumers, the doll was gathering chunks of dialogue and selling that data to a CIA contractor to help them improve their voice recognition technology. So, whether you know it or not, your kid might be helping the CIA. I would think that this is something that as a consumer you would at least like to know about and agree to." 3,53066,2019-05-02T17:33:49.485Z,9847,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,53065,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Related to the spying toys: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-smart-tech-toys-spying-20170228-story.html" 4,53067,2019-05-02T17:54:13.303Z,9847,0,7,6,1,0,0,6.4,53064,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"Not to go on and on here, but she also goes into the difference between a company gathering your data for the sole purpose of improving their service to you and taking that data and selling it in a secondary marketplace. To go back in history, for decades now most privacy policies lay out anon2696444391 they will or won't sell or give away your data but they may share it with their ""partners."" In this context, partner can mean almost anything and they don't have to define it. So it is about as airtight as running your air conditioner with the windows open." 5,53229,2019-05-08T13:06:05.933Z,9847,1,6,5,1,0,0,11.2,53064,anon1753543892,anon3203746736,"For a while I used to think that the sheer mass of data on individuals would provide a kind of security in itself as it would be impossible to actually read/listen to and interpret all of those pieces of information. I thought that if everybody would just have access to all information, no one would have the time to act upon it or have a huge advantage over the other. But my view has shifted learning about the capabilities but also demands of big data analysis. There are tools in existence and development able to interpret the largest amounts of data so that they can be acted upon and at the same time such tools are not available to everyone even if the information would be. Companies with the capital, know anon2696444391 and computing power to use the available data so often even provided freely or by users unaware of it have a huge advantage over the rest of the population." 6,53243,2019-05-08T15:21:38.963Z,9847,0,5,4,1,0,0,6.0,53229,anon3203746736,anon1753543892,Yes. This is a core part of the winner-take-all dynamic that is happening. 1,52991,2019-04-30T15:48:19.217Z,9833,0,16,15,3,0,0,20.2,52991,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"We have created a set of tags for this forum, listed in the first response. These are tags that we, the hosts, will use tagging topics (can only tag topics, not individual comments), and we hope that you will use when you create a topic. Note that this is a work in progress, so is not carved in sanon2863106368e. We may amend it from time to time as seems appropriate." 2,52992,2019-04-30T15:49:22.932Z,9833,0,16,15,1,0,0,8.2,52991,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"PERSONAL DATA _Primary:_ _consent_ _data mining_ _identity_ _privacy_ _tracking_ _user data_ Secondary: data centres data sharing diversity filter bubbles harassment human values inequality password relationships the cloud trust GOVERNANCE _Primary:_ _copyright_ _data sovereignty_ _democracy_ _monopolization_ _net neutrality_ _regulation_ _surveillance_ Secondary: antitrust article 13 citizen climate change consumer decentralisation disinformation diversity economy free speech health netizen opt-out transnational work conditions SAFETY _Primary:_ _cryptocurrency_ _cybercrime_ _cybersecurity_ _darknet_ _encryption_ _malware_ _spyware_ _security vulnerabilities_ Secondary: blocking cyber warfare resilience sustainability terrorist trustworthiness TECHNOLOGY DEVELOPMENT _Primary:_ _artificial intelligence (AI)_ _biohacking_ _blockchain_ _e-commerce_ _internet of things_ _machine learning_ _medical technology_ _open source_ _peer-to-peer (P2P)_ _protocols_ _robot_ _smartphone_ Secondary: 5Gg ads auanon2863106368omous vehicles business models energy efficiency facial recognition internet backbone next billion users network hardware neural networks open hardware voice assistant" 1,51400,2019-03-06T09:10:06.148Z,9569,1,20,19,88,0,0,644.0,51400,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Earlier this week, we had a long meeting in which many important things were said. One thing from @anon > the Commission feels a mismatch between who they are talking and the pioneers of this new human-centric Internet. As I considered this, I realized that it is not at all clear (not to me, at least) what ""a human-centric Internet"" actually is. @anon3554654177 (at the London meeting) and @anon1965424313 (in [this article](https://www.britishcouncil.org/anyone-anywhere/explore/web-for-all/rethinking-internet)) have spelled out the NGI Forward vision as well as I know anon2696444391: > But things don’t have to be this way. Between Silicon Valley’s corporate-led internet and the Chinese model, where the government is in charge, can we come up with a third narrative, where citizens and communities are in control and can determine their own future? In other words, **for now all we have a is a big question mark**. This opens a lot of room for ""mismatches"" like the one described by Mirko. Who is it the Commission have in mind? Who could be a good metaphor for a human-centric Internet builder? A Creative Commons lawyer? A Siemens R&D employee? A startupper drawing exponential curves in a PowerPoint file? As I mused about these things I chanced into a discussion on [Scuttlebutt](https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/), (like @anon659222949 and @anon3197437925, I try to keep some tendrils in the indieweb, probably not as seriously as they do). To see the whole thing, if you use Scuttlebutt, use message ID `%u0fnmwUQTBcL9S8HP3uYCdBgnssu4GIyWSuo5XLYvPs=.sha256`, but the title says it all: ""Deprioritizing first world problems"". The back story is this: an often-repeated feature request of Scuttlebutt is to provide for a multi-device account. The author of the original post has this to offer: > Multi-device management is by definition a problem experienced by people who *own multiple devices* , and those are probably by definition not the underconnected world [...]. >It turns out that if you pick first world techies as your target audience, you'll be dealing with people who perceive tiny inconveniences to be major sanon2696444391stoppers. Moreover, if you keep on catering to them, you'll be empowering privileged people more than the underprivileged (one example is that if you build apps to be online-only, you are privileging the privileged with good internet connectivity and ignoring the underprivileged, widening the inequality gap further). Meanwhile, underprivileged people are less demanding and more welcoming to almost any progress. In other words, it takes 100h of work to make a privileged audience satisfied, while it takes 10h to make an underprivileged audience satisfied, because of low-hanging fruits and less demanding attitude from users. And the underprivileged are often excluded from target audiences because they aren't economically viable customers. But that's when you're running a business, and with Manyverse I'm not. It takes a tech giant or a VC-funded startup to build polished apps for first world techies, while it takes just a reasonable amount of free time from open sourcerers to build decent proof-of-concept software for less demanding audiences. This gave me a bit of an ""aha"" moment. The builders of Scuttlebutt **started from the sort of human community they wanted to build**: open to the underprivileged, solving basic social connectivity problems while staying away from surveillance capitalism, etc., *and on those basis they are making all their technical choices*, right down to the editor. As they do that, they discover and exploit sources of economic efficiency (""underprivileged audiences are less demanding, easier to serve with open source tech""). They ended up with a very different product from the ones they are seeking to replace, and with a *very* different community. Diaspora still feels Facebook-ish: Scuttlebutt feels completely different, to me at least. See the video below if you want a quick intro. So. Human-centric, check. Technical innovation, check. Social innovation, check. Are communities like these those we are supposed to engage in NGI Forward? If so, I am afraid the narrative will have to change in depth to make space for that much diversity in the conversation.. Those guys might engage, but they will come asking some deep, probably unsettling questions. ""If the purpose is serving humans, it is not a given that we should be even giving business a say. By your own definition, business is only relevant if it serves humans"", and so on. https://vimeo.com/236358264" 2,51404,2019-03-06T12:19:42.291Z,9569,2,16,15,0,1,0,73.2,51400,anon659222949,anon3379761435,"[quote=""anon3379761435, post:1, topic:9569""] So. Human-centric, check. Technical innovation, check. Social innovation, check. Are communities like these those we are supposed to engage in NGI Forward? [/quote] Absolutely, I think you’re spot on. Communities using and building things like Scuttlebutt (also known as SSB), DAT, IPFS, Beaker and Mastodon are a great starting point for exactly these reasons. These are the first groups I want to engage with. We have a huge reservoir of themes to draw upon that these communities are already discussing: resilience, environment, alternative energy, wellbeing, social issues, decentralized institutions for solidarity and many more. Through our good friends at Enspiral, we have direct access to the heart of the Scuttlebutt community as the main developer [Dominic Tarr](https://twitter.com/dominictarr) is from New Zealand, so it's a good place to start. Someone made this map of anon2696444391 the user-base and culture of various social online technologies map on to the political compass. I don't know who the author is, and it is obviously to be taken with a pinch of salt, but there is some truth to it. It corresponds broadly to my own experience with these communities. ![authoritarian-kwangmyong-stormfront-cubadebate-gab-ai-wechat-baidu-vkontakt-authoritarian-left-29889578|500x591](upload://rUQhhzsRidJ5AhQ1eADvZYEzjkm.png) Engaging the communities on the two libertarian quadrants to engage in the NGI conversation is crucial. To do so, we will need to give them incentives. Access to funding through calls, and some guidance for anon2696444391 to apply, is one incentive. Creating high-profile invite-only events that cater to their tastes is another. That said, there are smoother ways that invite-only to get to the right people, which is essentially to make the communication specific enough in flavour that only the right people understand why they should go. One event using this strategy is [Data Terra Nemo](https://dtn.is/), which I will be attending in May. As a side-note, Scuttlebutt developer Dominic Tarr has anon2373157426 the story to tell. He is an extremely productive author of open source libraries, and has written hundreds of modules that are being used all around the internet. He has never been paid a dime for this work, and gives the code away. Obviously, he can't maintain all this code, so when people come along to take over maintaining old modules he is has written ages ago, he is happy to hand over the reins. This created controversy as it was discovered that control over one of those modules had ended up in the hands of a thug who inserted malicious code into an update, which was then pushed out to thousands of servers all around the internet. Its intended target was a single Bitcoin wallet platform called Copay which was using the module, and the perpetrator could then harvest account details of any account with more than 100 Bitcoin. Dominic caught a lot of flack for not doing due diligence on who he hands over code to, but [his response](https://gist.github.com/dominictarr/9fd9c1024c94592bc7268d36b8d83b3a) was that as long as companies are not paying maintainers of the modules they use or maintaining the modules themselves, they had themselves to blame." 3,51408,2019-03-06T14:13:36.049Z,9569,0,15,14,6,1,0,123.0,51404,anon3379761435,anon659222949,"[quote=""anon659222949, post:2, topic:9569""] [his response](https://gist.github.com/dominictarr/9fd9c1024c94592bc7268d36b8d83b3a) was that as long as companies are not paying maintainers of the modules they use or maintaining the modules themselves, they had themselves to blame. [/quote] You are right, this is anon2373157426 the story! Its morals are clear: if you go with the present economic model for the Internet, ""human-centric"" will remain an aspiration, rather than a description. The Internet's economy post-1993 pulls in the opposite direction. [quote=""anon659222949, post:2, topic:9569""] One event using this strategy is [Data Terra Nemo](https://dtn.is/) [/quote] `` They must mean ""Data Terra **Nullius** ([like here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius))`<\geekmode>` [quote=""anon659222949, post:2, topic:9569""] To do so, we will need to give them incentives. [/quote] No argument!" 4,52767,2019-04-24T07:05:43.752Z,9569,1,13,12,1,0,0,12.6,51404,anon3828707713,anon659222949,guys can we make this thread public? 5,52770,2019-04-24T07:25:04.623Z,9569,0,13,12,1,0,0,52.6,52767,anon3379761435,anon3828707713,This thread is now public. 1,52604,2019-04-16T14:24:40.219Z,9736,0,37,36,1,0,0,222.4,52604,anon3203746736,anon3203746736,"I'm John Coate. I'm a member of the Edgeryders Board of Directors and am the lead host (AKA Community Manager) for this Internet of Humans project. My internet career goes all the way back to 1986 when I started as the Marketing Director for [The WELL](https://www.well.com/), described by Wired! Magazine in 1997 as ""The world's most influential online community."" There was no name for it back then because nobody had yet done it as a job, but I was in realty the first ""online community manager."" In 1994 I co-founded and managed the first major online news website, [SF Gate](https://www.sfgate.com/). We were the first to do a number of things on the web that are now standard. And we were the first to live webcast a major sporting event in 1997. Later I was Director of Development for the [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/), and still later the General Manager of a [public FM radio station](https://www.kzyx.org/#stream/0) in California, where I live. I've been part of Edgeryders since 2016. I have seen first hand the entire arc of the internet with all that is both wonderful and terrible about it. It disturbs me that it increasingly concentrates power and wealth in the hands of a few gigantic companies. This winner-take-all situation is not what we pictured as we were building the various parts of the Internet. I hope that here we will bring out new ideas and paths forward to put the 'Net back to the human-centered place we knew that it could, and should, be. I live on the north coast of California, in a meadow by the redwoods about 3 km from the pacific ocean cliffs." 2,52699,2019-04-20T23:39:50.988Z,9736,1,27,26,1,0,0,15.4,52604,anon2549650028,anon3203746736,Thanks John for sharing your inspiring story! I am looking forward to getting to know yourself and members of this online community better! 3,52708,2019-04-22T04:44:27.937Z,9736,0,22,21,1,0,0,9.4,52699,anon3203746736,anon2549650028,And I look forward to it too. Thanks. 1,52681,2019-04-19T16:59:42.299Z,9772,0,16,15,11,0,0,58.2,52681,anon3379761435,anon3379761435,"Alberto Alemanno pointed me to [the story of Eunomia](https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/04/eunomia-leaks-reveal-antagonism-over-federated-social-credit-system/82330/), which very much looks like a recently launched Horizon 2020 project trying to come up with some system to detect fake news. The link above leads to a review written by a site called One Angry Gamer, a news website that covers gaming, but also internet freedom and ""ethics in journalism"". The money quote (emphasis mine): > A European Union-funded initiative called Eunomia has contracted various thinktanks, tech groups, and Fediverse evangelists to help with a new social credit scoring system. The system will be applied to social media and the federated destinations using blockchain technology. It will be governed by a crowdsourced system where groups rank up and rank down the trust levels of information. **In simple terms, it’s an adaptation of China’s social credit scoring system for the Fediverse**. Well, someone working on the project leaked some chat logs, and it reveals a rather antagonistic nature from the people working on the project toward the users who are skeptical of this EU funded project. [..] This obviously didn’t seem like an innocuous project from the EU especially given the Union’s recent anti-freedom of speech initiatives like [Article 11 and Article 13](https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/03/article-11-and-article-13-have-passed-public-list-made-available-of-politicians-who-voted-for-bills/80963/). [...] **Why is a social scoring system even needed for social media if users didn’t ask for it?** Note the reference to the Fediverse. One of the partners is Eugen “Gargron” Rochko, the creator of Mastodon. It seems reasonable to deduce that there is anon2373157426 some trust to rebuild, and that suggests a lot of listening in NGI, and not so much speaking. And a question to @anon3203746736. Where does this type of post go in the public space? It was not obvious to me, given the cats you made." 2,52682,2019-04-19T17:19:44.127Z,9772,1,15,14,1,0,0,13.0,52681,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"Not done with the cats - still figuring it out. I created 4 discussion sub-categories just now. See if they make sense to you. I'm trying to find a small number of larger 'buckets"" that will work with tags to help people get to the things that interest them. Looking for balance between good organization and screen clutter. I'd make those boxes smaller but I don't see where to do that. So, then, in the case of this 'we did not ask for it' topic, I would put in under Governance since it is talking about a EU-directed potential regulation." 3,52698,2019-04-20T15:42:36.819Z,9772,1,9,8,1,0,0,11.8,52682,anon3379761435,anon3203746736,"Ok, done. As for ""making sense"", I dislike ontologies and see them as a necessary evil, and [they are overrated anyway](http://shirky.com/writings/ontology_overrated.html). From a community management point of view, I also dislike empty or semi-empty cats. So, my instinct would be to have only ONE cat, #ioh, with one subcat for the research team, and maybe (maybe) differentiate later, when the discussion is so crowded that it begs breaking down. That's anon2696444391 OpenCare worked, and that's anon2696444391 I would do it if I were in your shoes." 4,52707,2019-04-22T04:40:08.965Z,9772,0,8,7,1,0,0,6.6,52698,anon3203746736,anon3379761435,"I wasn't fixed on keeping those subcategories up there. Was trying them out for size in anticipation that more organization will be called for later. Pre-release mocking up. Ontologies and tags and all are not as important as they once were when search was more cumbersome than it is today. But I think they are more useful than you do probably. At any rate they help describe the landscape. Anyway I moved this into a general discussion area. Probably will come up with a snappier name for it.." 1,52309,2019-04-04T14:32:29.724Z,9701,0,28,27,5,0,0,285.6,52309,anon3214242932,anon3214242932,"Hi, My name is Mattias Axell and I am a returning community user at the Edgeryders community platform from earlier interest and endeavors some years ago. Since my earlier interest in Edgeryders I have studied the entrepreneurial programme at Kaospilot in Denmark. During my studies there I started engaging in government transparency connected to freedom of information and open data. I have previously worked as a producer in 3D industry, with events such as hackathons, hosted and moderated conference tracks, helped out with workshops, held courses, lectures and seminars at different conferences and events regarding widely ranging topics. I am introducing myself here as part of my new part-time project to collaborate with @anon659222949 and arrange an event for the NGI project during 11th of May 2019. I currently also work part-time with [Civic Tech Sweden](https://civictech.se/) where I am trying to gather a community and network in Sweden for free software and open source initiatives but also in general tech initiatives which tries to create more and different kinds of value for society. I will be working with @anon" 2,52313,2019-04-04T16:35:18.078Z,9701,0,25,24,1,0,0,70.0,52309,anon3828707713,anon3214242932,Welcome back :) 1,5397,2016-03-03T10:26:36.000Z,5364,0,5,4,5,0,0,26.0,5397,anon802235712,anon802235712,"

Premise

In my understanding, in the first round of the Open Care discussion both the terms “care” and “open” have been used referring to different meanings. This premise is my personal attempt to map these different uses.

Care

  1. Care referred to a special kind of human interaction: someone (the care giver) gives attention to, and takes action for, someone else (the care receiver). 
  2. Care referred to a set of artifacts: the products and services of the system which, in a given time and place, enables the care activities (i.e. the care interaction of the point 1). 

Open

  • A.  Open referred to the care system: a system is open when different actors have the possibility to play a role. This can happen when the whole activity package is opened and divided into parts with the possibility, for these different parts, to be distributed among different actors.  
  • B. Open referred to the information flow: a system is open when the information on which it is based are open. This can happen when these information are totally visible, accessible and transferable to other systems.

Open Care

Considering the different meanings of “care” and “open”, in my view, there is a clear correlation between 1 and A, and between 2 and B: A1 Open care refers to the final result. That is, it refers to the characteristics of the care system we intend to create: a care system where different actors (experts and non experts) are in condition to play a relevant role.  B2 Open care refers to the design/production process. That is, it refers to the characteristics of a co-design and co-production process: the process leading to the realization of the products and services on which an aimed care system is based. 

Our discussion…

For what I have understood until now the general motivation for the research (see the Open Care research introduction) seems to mainly refer to A1, where the consortium profiles and experiences are mostly linked to the B2.  In my view, at this stage of the Open Care research we should take a clear decision: do we want to deal with A1, with B2 or with both, A1+B2. If the choice is for A1+B2, we should clearly define when, where and anon2696444391 we will discuss of A1 and when, where and anon2696444391 of B2.  NB: The following Notes mainly refer to open care assuming the A1 meaning. 

Care

Since the beginning of human history, care has been exchanged (given and received) inside homogeneous, durable and relatively closed groups of individuals: families, clans, village communities, urban neighborhoods ... In the past century, in parallel to that, care has been delivered also by dedicated institutions: hospital, kindergartens, elderly residences...   Today, for several reasons, the demand of care is growing and becoming more complex, while both the traditional and the modern offer of care are less and less capable to cope with it. In fact, in the present fluid, hyper individualized societies, families, village communities and urban neighborhoods are weakening (if not totally disappearing) and individuals, given their life structure, have less and less practical possibilities to take care of others (even when, in principle, they would do it).  In turn, care institutions, which were supposed to substitute the traditional community’s and individual’s care, have less and less economic resources (and often political will) to do it.  The gap between the growing demand and the shrinking offer of care is the basis of the present care crisis: a lack of care that is not only practical (the caring system do not succeed in coping with the care demand), but also psychological (the sense of loneliness deriving by the lack of sense of care throughout the whole society).  To overcome this crisis a brand new care systems has to be imagined and enhanced. To move in this direction, a first step is to better understand caring activities, considering their nature and diversity.  The practical/organizational side of care is particularly important because care is not only exchanging information and knowledge. Care asks also for proximity and action: doing something for each other, taking time and being committed. Care activities. Care activities are anon2373157426 diverse: they can be performed by whoever could be willing to do it (as to make the shopping for somebody who is momentary sick); they can require a lot of time, attention and assumption of responsibility (as to take care of the daily life necessities of somebody seriously ill); they can require timely actions by highly specialized experts (as surgery interventions in very specific moments). And so on.    In general terms, these differences are characterized by a set of main parameters, as: 
  • Time: duration, frequency, flexibility, …
  • Space: virtual, hybrid, only physical, …
  • Competences: normal everyday life socialization, specific diffuse knowledge, specialized expert knowledge, …
  • Responsibility: very low; low, high, very high.
Different care actions should be attentively analyzed and mapped using this kind of parameters. Nevertheless, intuitively, we can already say that different care activities could be delivered by different actors in different modalities.  It comes that, to imagine a new care system, we should, first of all, recognize all the potential care givers, considering them as resources: effective care resource (when they are already active) and potential care resources (when they could be activated if some conditions would be given) Care resources. In principle, everybody can care for someone else. He/she can do it in different forms (depending on his/her expertise and time availability), but all of them require attention. In turn, given that attention is a limited resource (each person has a limit in his/hers capability to give attention), this is true also for his/her capability to care. In other word, care (both the expert and non-expert one) is a diffuse but limited resource.  Presently, care systems are built on a mix of three main resources:
  • Institutional care givers (based on professional actors)
  • Third sector and charity organizations (based on both professional and non professional actors)
  • Traditional care communities (as families, village communities, urban neighborhoods).
We know that, for different reasons, all of them are in difficulty to cope with the growing care demand. Therefore, the issue is to reshape the system in order to permit to some new potential resources to emerge and become effective resources.  Mainstream and contra trends. We have said that, in principle, everybody, depending on his/her time and expertise, could give some forms of care. But we can observe that today, in the contemporary societies, this care potential, clashes with the dominant culture and practice: a cultural attitude that, in the name of individual freedom and convenience, tends to assume a careless approach to everything and everyone (the throwaway society extended from things to human relationships). And: a mainstream practice of living that makes difficult to introduce care activities in the daily life (due to work constrains, to the evolution of families and to their being scattered in different places). Therefore, given the present structures of family and work, few people can commit to offering care, especially if this requires continuity, high responsibility and duration in time. Nevertheless, several examples tell us that there still are several people who could and would dedicate some time/energy/attention to well defined caring activities - if and when an appropriate enabling system would permit them to do it in a easy and flexible way. This limited but diffuse caring availability is the potential resource that the socio-technical innovation should be capable to transform in an effective resource.   In other words, thanks to an appropriate socio-technical innovation, it should become possible to cultivate and harvest the limited individual caring resources of broader groups of subjects. That is, to catalyze and coordinate existing but not used care resources could be the key to overcome the care crisis of contemporary societies.

Hypothesis and vision

Hypothesis. If the close (social or institutional) organizations of the past cannot cope with the dimension and complexity of the present demand of care, they must be opened. That is: the care activities must be divided in smaller/lighter tasks, and allocated to a large number of actors, each one giving what he/she is capable/willing to give.  Vision. Open care is an ecosystem of care-related interactions, characterized by being distributed among a large number of individuals, groups and institutions, with different competence, responsibility and commitment:  from the highly specialized actors and institutions, to family members, friends and neighbors with no specific knowledge and limited time availability. 

Viability

Social preconditions and enabling systems. To be viable, open care requires two main social preconditions:
  • The existence of a large number of other actors (relatives, friends, neighbors) willing to care for someone, even tough they have practical limits (in terms of time and resource availability) to the possibility of doing it.
  • The existence of dedicated and specialized actors capable to intervene when their competence are (really) needed.
Given the previous social preconditions, the open care potentialities are made real thanks to the existence of a technological and organizational system capable to catalyze diffuse resources, coordinate them and give their action the needed continuity. More precisely, this enabling system should:
  • match different demands with different offers (in terms of competence)
  • give different care actions coherence and continuity (by the point of view of the care receiver)
  • promote and support both relational and the highly effective ones (i.e. the most specialized, professional interventions).
  • be organically part of a larger systems: the ecosystem of interactions that represents what today we can refer to as a local community. 

Social innovation and open care

The open care viability is based on the existence of a whole stream of social (and socio-technical) innovation that is already moving in a similar direction. In fact, in the complexity of contemporary society we can find several promising cases (some of them are still social prototypes, someone else is already arrived to more mature stage). For instance:
  • Circles of care: groups of citizen sharing a same problem (as: diabetes, allergies, obesity, … or simply the old age) who mutually support each other, with the supervision of a team of doctors and nurses (a well-known example is the Circle in UK: http://www.participle.net/ageing ). 
  • Network of care: coordinated networks of family members, friends and neighbors, who share and coordinate their efforts to care for a person with serious problems (a well-known example is Tyze in Canada http://tyze.com )
  • Intergenerational cooperation: organizations that supports the encounter of young and elderly people mainly around the theme of collaborative living (a well-known example is Prendi a casa uno studente (Take a student at home), in Italy: http://www.meglio.milano.it/pratiche_studenti.htm )
  • Collaborative inclusion: organizations of migrants and residents collaborating to produce both migrant’s inclusion and social values, for both the migrants and the whole community (an example is:  Dine with us, in Belgium: http://dinewithus.strikingly.com )   
Considering these very diverse examples, we can observe that they present three fundamental common characters: (1) some care activities are delivered by non professional actors; (2) the overall care burden is shared between different subjects; (3) specialized interventions are asked only when they are really needed.   These examples are interesting because they give us an idea on anon2696444391 open care components could work. Nevertheless, in my view, they are not yet the full representation of the open care vision. To better approximate it, two steps should be done:
  • To rethink each one of these service ideas adopting the radically open approach that characterizes the Open Care research.
  • To consider the whole socio-technical ecosystem, and to improve it in order to give all of them and a multiplicity of similar ones the possibility to emerge and flourish.
" 2,7041,2016-03-03T10:50:02.000Z,5364,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,5397,anon3379761435,anon802235712,"Community != research team Ezio, this is brilliant stuff, thanks. I will be breaking down my reactions into several comments, because I need to read it several times, it is so rich. For now, I would like to refer to your discussion of A1 vs. B2 OpenCare.  The ""big scary problem"" we are looking at is, in my opinion, clearly A1. A1 is what the people out there are trying to do: rigging together DIY solutions to care problems. Where do I leave my children when I go to work, if state-provided daycare centers in Italy do not have capacity (Italy: the slots in daycare centers are 3% of the children of that age)? How do I keep on eye on the glucose in the bloodstream of my diabetic loved ones? Etc. But, OpenCare (the project) is not open care (the activity). We are running a research project. What we research is B2: we reverse engineer anon2696444391 those spontaneous solutions came about. We do it by formulating hypotheses as to what kind of processes the opencarers out there used to invent and deploy their solutions. One hypothesis – that is, at the same time, an enabling condition for our own research activities is what I am going to call the openness hypothesis: Community-driven care solutions correlate with open collaboration and open knowledge management practices.  This is very clear in the hacking diabetes story. John Costik wrote code. If he had not open sourced it, the story would have ended there. But he did, so the next guy in the story, James Wedding, could reuse it and enrich the system. But now Wedding's own code inherited Costik's license, so it was open too, and so on. You can do that kind of stuff with proprietary knowledge and top-down permission structures, but you need moneyed organisations. I predict community-driven solutions will depend heavily on openness.  Conclusion. We study people who do A1. They will be the backbone of the OpenCare (the project) community. We (the research team) ourselves focus on B2, and hope to learn ways that we can get more A1 stuff out there by sanon2696444391ing people anon2696444391 to set their process right. This is why, though A1 is the object of our study, in practice we spend much of our time on B2. Makes sense? " 3,14352,2016-03-03T12:30:11.000Z,5364,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,5397,anon1016081892,anon802235712,"short reflection
I'll share a short reflection. 
 
We read your document and discussed it in our team. 
We agreee with your approach of framing the debate in the intersection between concepts even if we are not so sure to feel comfortable with the subdivision you do in page 1. 
We think in fact that it's possible to achieve part of what you describe in A1 through tools and processes you describe in B2. 
 
In our activities we experienced that an open system of activation happens especially when people are empowered with knowledge and problem-solving solutions (even complex) and are able to build bottom-up services thanks to the process of co-design and collaboration. 
 
We think that we need to talk about the design and implementation of B2 care ""artefacts"", for example regarding:
- material / immaterial
- simple / complex 
- low impact / high impact
- low growth rate / high growth rate
 
 
" 4,20091,2016-03-04T09:52:00.000Z,5364,1,2,1,1,0,0,10.4,5397,anon3828707713,anon802235712,"Three possible situations During LOTE5 some of us had a parallel discussion around narratives of care. We started with small listening triads where participants shared personal experiences around care. Then we had a larger free-wheeling conversation where more people got involved, including Erik.

Some observations

One conclusion (as I understand it) is that there are a lot of difficulties involved in setting the context for care. How to communicate and negotiate around the different needs, capacities, permission/willingness to get involved and constraints of both caregivers and care recipients. In part because the boundaries between the roles are fluid, especially in trying to deal with psycho-social distress involved. From a conversation that took place after LOTE5 someone mentioned ""learned helplessness"" and anon2696444391 to cope with this as a caregiver.

Coping mechanisms: Networked care

Someone mentioned one coping mechanism being to require the person asking for help to spread the burden by reaching out to more people in their caring network. I mention it because I think this is something we could look into: anon2696444391 a network can help the individual nodes both identify signs of trouble, collude to preventing them from happening, as well as identify and respond to calls for help. Having this option of spreading the burden of care over more people might be one way to nudge more people to engage in caring activities. This is certainly the case for me: the fear of getting entangled in relationships that I cannot get out of is a big obstacle.

Three possible situations

I found three possible cases around which we could perhaps better map/make sense of different kinds of caring activities involved. Possibly with the intention to co-design and prototype appropriate practical/organisational settings/resources/artefacts to support care givers/recipients...   Case 1: Preventing suicides in the hacker community. Case 2: Negotiating changing roles and needs (emotional and practical) of family members as parents slip into dementia. needs, capacities, and constraints where elderly family members are slipping into dementia Case 3: Helping refugees deal with emotional /psychological/ social challenges during the ""waiting"" phases in the asylum seeking process " 5,21980,2016-03-08T18:54:14.000Z,5364,1,3,2,0,0,0,5.6,20091,anon2017032069,anon3828707713,"interesting cases Hello Nadia, thank you for your contribution.  Any clear idea of what is intended with the case-studies?  What would you like to do around these three examples? They appear to be interesting but I feel the urge of going deeper with them.  looking forward to the way ahead...   " 6,22568,2016-03-08T19:17:29.000Z,5364,0,2,1,0,0,0,0.4,21980,anon3828707713,anon2017032069,"Tried to expand/think more around this in a post Hi :) During the  Op3nCare community call today (tuesdays at 16.30 CET), we discussed anon2696444391 to structure the Op3nCare outreach so as to create the conditions for mutual learning and shared insights relevant to everyone involved. It could be that they are currently in a care-related situation themselves (as caregiver/reciever)... ...or someone who is not directly affected but cares, and wants to support their efforts in navigating the situation. It could also just be someone who is professionally engaged and wants to know anon2696444391 they can make a meaningful contribution. I wrote the comment above more as a mental note to not forget something ephemeral, a beginning of a thought really. A bit later I wrote a more reflective post where I try to start digging into it.. https://anon1577251828.eu/en/lote5-doc/after-lote5-where-do-we-even-begin-to-talk-about-failures-in   " 7,23721,2016-03-04T13:21:00.000Z,5364,1,3,2,3,0,0,20.6,5397,anon244179891,anon802235712,"Examples? I'm sorry, I'm afraid I'm the dummy guy in the gang. I need @anon1016081892 to provide examples of what you put behind these classes: material / immaterial; simple / complex, low impact / high impact; low growth rate / high growth rate. Or is it the classification itself you wish to discuss?   " 8,24929,2016-03-08T17:24:20.000Z,5364,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,23721,anon1016081892,anon244179891,"we're working on this @anon     " 9,26600,2016-03-18T08:16:00.000Z,5364,1,4,3,0,0,0,5.8,5397,anon802235712,anon802235712,"Care needs proximity and continuity This is a feedback to @anon The premise is that for what regards the the structure to be given to the OpenCare (the project). I will accept and respect what Alberto, and if I have well understood Costantino too, propose. That is, in Alberto’s words: “We study people who do A1. They will be the backbone of the OpenCare (the project) community. We (the research team) ourselves focus on B2, and hope to learn ways that we can get more A1 stuff out there by sanon2696444391ing people anon2696444391 to set their process right. This is why, though A1 is the object of our study, in practice we spend much of our time on B2.” I cannot say that the meaning and the practical implications of this statement are crystal clear for me. But in a research it has to be like that. And I am curious. Regarding Nadia’s first post, I agree with her when she proposes to : “Having this option of spreading the burden of care over more people might be one way to nudge more people to engage in caring activities” this is only the strategy I proposed in my post. Maybe there are other strategies, but this one appers to me particularly interesting and potentially generative. Given that, anon2696444391 to go on? On my side, I can make some steps in the direction I know better, i.e. A1, leaving others to help me to find bridges with B1.  If this makes sense, the first step is to ask you, to give me some feedbacks on the other parts of my post above (they went  the A1 vs B2 options!).  I would like to have, if possible, some feedbacks on them too. Here I will highlight some one first, and in my view crucial, point. In my original note I wrote: “The practical/organizational side of care is particularly important because care is not only exchanging information and knowledge. Care asks also for proximity and action: doing something for each other, taking time and being committed.” Writing that I want to underline, is that care (by the points of view of who, in a given moment, need care), requires proximity and continuity. These proximity and continuity is, in a my opinion, a major difference with other, mainly information-based activities (that often can work also without them). Therefore, if as Nadia also says, a care strategy could be the one of “spreading the burden of care over more people”, the first problem that appears is that their different bits of care activity have to be perceived, and by all means, be, from the point of view of who in that moment is the care receiver, as deliveres with continuity: the different care giver must appear as one continuous entity operating in proximity. In my notes I indicated one case that I think could be interesting by this point of view and that I invite you to invite you see: the case of Tyze, in Canada. In my view this case is very interesting but … it is presented as a private, and therefore, closed, network of care! What do you think? " 10,27192,2016-03-18T08:45:45.000Z,5364,1,4,3,0,0,0,5.8,26600,anon3379761435,anon802235712,"Tyze Thanks @anon HOW TYZE CAN HELP YOUR BUSINESS
  • Pushing schedules and daily care documentation into clients’ Tyze networks = Reduced inbound support costs
  • Ability to extend brand to those who share in the care journey of your client = Increased brand awareness
  • Digital delivery of informational and support materials = Reduced printing costs
  • Enhanced communication and care coordination via a Tyze network = Increased customer satisfaction and retention
Tyze per se is low value added technology. Youy could do the same thing with wikis, Trello, Google Apps and whatever. They have a solid intuition behind it, though, and the people using Tyze, and anon2696444391 they coordinate, and who they are etc. could tell many interesting stories to OpenCare.  The meaning of my statement above are: people are already implementing A1 systems (they deliver care and they are open) by making A2 stuff (inventing and producing services etc.). We conjecture that openness in the process (2) is an enabler of A1. More precisely, we conjecture that without open processes (B2) there can be no open care (A1), but the reverse is not true. You can use open, participatory processes to design closed systems and artifacts. I guess the implication is to study closely the B2 side of things, and anon2696444391 openness in the process results (or not) in A1-type open care.  " 11,27399,2016-03-20T20:29:21.000Z,5364,0,4,3,0,0,0,0.8,27192,anon1016081892,anon3379761435,"+1 I strongly agree with @anon3379761435  The meaning of my statement above are: people are already implementing A1 systems (they deliver care and they are open) by making A2 stuff (inventing and producing services etc.). We conjecture that openness in the process (2) is an enabler of A1. More precisely, we conjecture that without open processes (B2) there can be no open care (A1), but the reverse is not true. You can use open, participatory processes to design closed systems and artifacts. I guess the implication is to study closely the B2 side of things, and anon2696444391 openness in the process results (or not) in A1-type open care.  - " 12,28213,2016-03-18T11:24:00.000Z,5364,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,5397,anon3828707713,anon802235712,"On care and communities: Situations, Relationships, Contexts
Hi everyone,
 
I have been thinking and trying to make sense of @anon
 
Yesterday Ezio and I met in London to think together around anon2696444391 to proceed with our part of the research. I had been struggling to understand the distinction Ezio was making the sense in which we are exploring ""Openness"" in the context of care. I  think I understand better now, and think I am algined with Ezio, and away from Alberto, that it is the first which is more fruitful/interesting. For me the openness has to do with more porous interface between what is inside a cateogry or institution or practice, a place..etc and what is outside. And what happens in those situations where there is a fuzzy, or een decomposing boundary between them. Professional caregivers, vs others. Between insiders and outsiders of a community. Between users and builders of technologies.
 
Less so the collaborative, participatory nature of our research project. Which for me is given. The very fact that we are having this conversation like this, in the open, with all the difficulties of comprehension that it involves mean that we are already doing this. Seen from here, the conversation we are really trying to have is one of research curation, where to direct our gaze and why. As well as the filter through which we look at it.
 
During yesterday's conversation Ezio and I reflected on anon2696444391 Europe had reacted to the Paris attacks. How a small number of individuals could shut down two countries for a two days. Similarly it is remarkable that in the world's wealthiest continent, a relatively small number of refugees can destabilise the entire system. Can this  be tied to people's sense of being vulnerable, even with nice jobs etc? Can it be there is a sense of lack of social protection because of not being firmly anchored in caring communities?  
But what does this term community actually mean in a contemporary, urban situation? Ezio's work at Central Saint Martins has been exploring this. His students have been looking at weaving together people and places in situations where connections are fleeting and ephemeral (not like in villages where you are stuck with one another in the same place for better or worse). Noemi, Alberto and myself have been working with related things with Edgeryders, creating a sense of place and community that remains even though the relationships which make it (who is there, who interacts with whom, what people connect over etc) are constantly changing. John, before us with other settings and constanon4205961763tions of people. It seems Ezio and I have arrived at the same intuition and this is where his interest in Opencare lies: 
 
How can we use design to reconcile this need for the individual to be free to choose their level of engagement in care, with the need for the care recipient to feel continuity, local anchoring and coherence design these factors into existing or new initiatives?
Can having an option to spread the care over more people nudge more people to engage in caring activities? And if so, under which conditions  does this happen or not (which are the critical factors)?
 
There are three situations within which it may be especially generative to focus our research attention:
  • Social and or health care of refugees in Germany/Europe
  • Prevention of Suicide in the hacker community
  • Helping both caregivers and care receivers in dealing with dementia in urban environments
These three areas we choose because they are situations in which the crisis of care in modernity is very  visible. I think (please forgive my fumbling approach to articulate intuition into words with my limited understanding of your areas of expertise and interest):
 
  • All three involve people in vulnerable situations where dynamics in community connections, or lack of, play a significant role. Can Guy/Alberto's network science perspective help us to make visible and understand these social flows?
  • All three also involve some interaction with the formal health and social care system, conditions as well as norms/behaviors in society at large. Can Erik and Tino's approach help us make sense of this and translating it into institutionally comprehensible language?
  • All three also involve and require a deep understanding of healing and medical practice, especially the ethical considerations for both caregivers and care recipients. Can Marco, Massimo's and other's work in the field and in the lab help us to identify and understand anon2696444391 to deal with these issues? In the research as well as in the intiatives themselves?
  • The city as a place and institutions is where all of these interactions and relationships live (or do not). Can Lucia and Rossana and others in the city of Milano help us understand anon2696444391 a city can make visible and enable promising approaches and nurturing the people who drive them?
  • Can we design interventions offer workarounds to the obstacles these intiatives, and the indivuals they attempt to support (caregivers and care recipients)? What forms could these interventions take in order to unlock more care in the different situations (artefacts, communication, services, processes, upskilling, administrative and legal hacks, policy changes and or something else? Here I think the anon2945747231nuity and very particular skillset of Costantino, Zoe and others in the weMake constanon4205961763tion could make a very important contribution.
Thoughts? " 13,29361,2016-03-21T16:17:38.000Z,5364,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,5397,anon3379761435,anon802235712,"What is OpenCare about? A tentative wrapup of this thread Ok guys, here's what I understood:
  • OpenCare studies community-driven care services. This means ""activities of giving care to people that need it, and that are open to anyone's participation"" (Ezio's A1). For example: the Helliniko Community Clinic.
  • Our attention is on anon2696444391 these things come into being. This means we are focusing on the design choices of their protagonists and to the emergent social dynamics driving them (Ezio's B2). For example, we consider anon2696444391 the design move of not incorporating enabled the Helliniko Community Clinic to work like it does. This is all set against an institutional backdrop. Example: liability for doctors in Greece is attached to the doctors themselves, whereas in Sweden it is attached to the hospitals.
  • This is all a bit too abstract to prompt an online conversation, so we start by looking at community driven care activities in three domains: social/health care to refugees; suicide prevention; and treatment of dementia (more). 
Is that clearer now? Do you all agree? @anon But, if you (or the others) are not convinced, then it's back to the drawing board. I agree with you that we need to be on the same page here.  " 14,30178,2016-03-21T17:38:53.000Z,5364,0,3,2,0,0,0,0.6,5397,anon519360058,anon802235712,"comments on two domains hi Alberto,  we agree on you summary, we feedbacked Nadia on the other thread regarding the domains of action https://anon1577251828.eu/en/comment/22032#comment-22032 best Zoe "