I did a workshop a couple of years ago, I went to Photography and did a workshop with
Trent Park and it was awesome, totally changed the way I edit actually and it was quite influential
in that regard and it was quite obsessive about printing everything out and I didn't
used to do that.
I used to try and do things on the computer, like in bridge or whatever and I just kind
of lined it all up and look at them as these tiny little thumbnails and he just went, no
don't do that, print it out.
So I started printing everything out, small initially, just going to postcard size, then
I kind of gradually got bigger and bigger and for the residency I'm doing now, my boss
kind of wants to see things A3 so I just started printing A3 and it's a nice size to be able
to stick up on the wall, walk away and look at it and you can actually start sequencing
and I find that the printed tactile object is I think really important, plus it's important
to actually print your work out so you can see the colours because they are different
to what's on the screen, I've got a whole calibrated system but you don't always get
what's on the screen and it's important to print it out, especially if you're thinking
about a book or an exhibition and I enjoy it, I enjoy kind of sticking to the wall and
walking away, coming back and going, oh no that's not in the right sequence or you need
to spend time and allow things to kind of unfurl a little bit and by making prints I
think you can do that.
Do you guys want to have a look at some prints?
Your residency with the Milonglo group seems like, I think to a lot of photographers, like
a dream job, like you have creative freedom and you were saying before that you could
have found it hard, correct me if I'm wrong, to make pictures that you don't, or you are
personally invested in.
Yeah it's really hard, I mean, okay so I've got creative control which is awesome but
it's also kind of hard because for example I have to photograph a hairdressing salon
and a day spa, I can't think of anything worse, I've been in there twice, I have no interest,
it's boring as hell, I just can't see an image, horrible and I had a meeting today
with Nick and he just says, oh well you just have to figure it out, don't you?
And it's kind of like, okay I really have to do it, I've been putting it off for six
months.
So what's it for, the image?
It's for a website.
For a website.
So some of what I have to do, like basically I've been commissioned to do a book and to
document the process but as you do all those drugs you have to multitask and you get pulled
sideways to do other jobs and that's fine, you know, I get well paid to do those things
and I was happy to do it but there are times where that idea of creative control can be
really frustrating so I tried to shoot those subjects in a way that I thought was a bit
more commercial and they totally sucked big time so, you know, and I was kind of like
these are crap, I don't even want to show these to Nick Tony.
He had a look and he goes, yeah these suck because you're trying to do something you're
not good at, just do them the way you normally would.
So you know, I've got to think slightly out of the box but it can be a little bit of a
pressure when you have to shoot things that don't engage you so, you know, for the most
part that's pretty rare, like everything so far I've found really engaging.
But there is that work aspect of it.
Yeah, there is.
Absolutely.
Maybe did you foresee, did you think it would just be like go out and shoot pictures, maybe
what are the expectations versus what's the reality of your dream photography job?
Oh, I don't know if it's my dream job to be, if I'm being really honest, it's a great
job, don't get me wrong and as far as a residency goes it's been very challenging, like the subject
matters totally outside my field of vision but it's forced me to look at things in ways
that I have to challenge my own process as well which I think is really important as
a photographer, as a creative person, sometimes you need to be uncomfortable or shift sideways
in order to grow as an animatic, I mean, you know, if you keep shooting the same stuff
over and over you'll end up like Bill Henson, you know, making the same work for 30 years.
That should be a bad thing.
Well, you know, that's fine but for me I think it might be a bit boring, I don't think I
want to make pictures like this for the rest of my life, I mean, who knows, maybe I will,
I have no idea but I like the idea of being challenged and I definitely have been with
this project, I guess simply because it wasn't my idea as well, you know, sometimes I need
to share other people's ideas, you've got to somehow put that together in a creative
way.
But that close working relationship over a sustained period, in the field that for so
many years you've actually been your own director, yeah, your own boss.
But you know, I kind of actually like it because I've worked for my, like, as you say, self-directed
projects, pretty much my whole career, if you can call it that, was during my whole
practice.
I don't think I've ever understood what it means to work for somebody else, like, you
know, my colleagues in Oculi, a lot of them are press photographers, so they work for
somebody else and they have a different kind of working style and ethic, which is, you
know, not a negative thing, I'm not being negative about it, but it's just really different
to what I'm used to.
So they're able to converse and talk about their working processes in a very different
way to me.
And sometimes I think I'm a bit of a square pig in a round hole in that group because
my work is quite different to everybody else's, but on the flip side of that, that was one
of the reasons why I think they agreed to kind of have me in there as well.
You know, I'll just tell a story using a slightly different visual form and it's good that there's
space for that, but I kind of like working with somebody who can be a little bit flippant
about images because I get very married to every image and obsess over it and, you know,
Nectar can just flick through images like this and go, yep, yep, yep, like me, which
you did today, you looked at about 50 photographs and just flipped through them in less than
10 minutes.
And I was a little bit like, oh, well, you know, that's like...
Sounds like an Instagram account.
Yeah.
It's like, exactly.
My work's been treated like Instagram photos, but not really.
I mean, you know, if you're a busy guy, you just got to be quick, but it kind of teaches
me as well to, I think, just maybe stand back a little bit.
It's so easy to fall into your own cup in a way and drown in it and I think it's good
to have some distance and, you know, maybe just some space and, like, reality check from
being too involved in your own working process.
So I think this project in some ways has been good for that and it's...
That distance, in a way, has allowed me still the energy and space to do my personal projects.
So...
Because I've got another big one on the boil, but super slow, so it's taking forever.
Do you look at your images when you've made them very quickly or do you wait?
And then if you do, do they change over time if you let them sit?
Yeah.
I generally...
I have this sort of practice where, as soon as I get the films processed, I'll scan them
and proof them.
So I'll do proof sheets, but for every single film, print them out and then I'll look at
them quickly and I'll do a quick cross of all the ones that, at a glance, I think work.
And then I'll leave it for about a month or so and then I'll go back to them.
Sorry, this morning actually was my go back to the proof sheets and I picked up a bunch
of others and then crossed out some of the original ones.
So I think it's really important to, you need time to stew over pictures because, you know,
you change and the images change and the sequence changes and you get new images and you dump
old images.
It's just sort of the natural process, I think, of editing, you know, for me.
Yeah.
The influence that photographers get usually come from other photographers, from, as you
mentioned, books and a lot of online, maybe you could tell us about who some of your photographic
influences are, maybe outside photography.
And I think you've answered this already, but as much as books and online, do exhibitions
go in and see prints in galleries in any interest to you?
Yes, absolutely.
I try and see photographic shows as much as I can, although I'm getting slacker, that's
really bad.
I don't think there's that many photo shows in Canberra, but when there are, I do try
and get out and see them.
When I'm in Melbourne and Sydney, I definitely see more, you know, when you're somewhere
else you kind of make that conservative effort when you're at home.
And I really like to look at friends' work as well, so quite a few friends will just
email me pictures and we share work like that through email and do like mini-crit some things.
That's really important, I think.
And I have a couple of friends here who I show work to, work with them on edits and things.
And what's interesting is that they're actually lifestyle photographers.
They don't do my kind of work, but at all.
And then, you know, I'll crit some of their work too, so it's kind of good having working
in totally different fields.
I think, you know, they bring a different eye and a different sort of aesthetic, which
I think is good.
It's important to kind of share that a little bit, because you get stuck in your own genre,
I suppose, for one of the better words.
But, sorry, what was the question?
Can I?
Yeah, you would.
Take it from the history of photography.
Yeah.
So what are the names, sort of?
Oh, big names.
Well, look, I guess, having written a thesis, definitely a big influence is Dianne Arbus.
I absolutely love her work, and she was totally weird, but I kind of liked that she was weird.
And she just, the thing that I think I found interesting about her work was how she fell
into her own cup, right?
And she was very interested in what she was interested in, and she didn't kind of let
anything stand in the way of that.
But what was interesting, too, was that there was so much about her.
It was this self-reflective sort of expression of how she felt, you know, maybe about herself
or the world around her.
It was kind of interesting.
She brought all her baggage with her.
And I think, for me, it was a kind of, I mean, I don't know her personally, of course, but
that was this amazingly honest sort of process, and I really enjoy seeing that in photographers.
Like another influence, I'd say, is Alex Oath.
I love his work.
I think he's an act, I actually think he's a genius, and I don't, you know, even his
crap photos are actually really interesting, because there's always intent and reason and
purpose behind what he does, even when he doesn't realise it himself.
And I love how honest he is about his photos, and he writes really well.
I'm always, I'm interested in photographers who can also write, and who can reflect a
little bit about their own work.
You know, it's interesting.
We all want to hear about other people's work.
I'm no different to you guys.
I love, you know, watching videos or reading interviews on people.
And sometimes I think, oh, God, what a bunch of wankers, and other times I just go, God,
that person's just amazing, you know.
So, and even, I think, people's actual projects, I think, is slightly reflective of their beliefs.
Another couple of his work I really admires Brunberg and Channerin, Adam Brunberg and
Oliver Channerin.
If you get a chance to look at their work, it's out of this world.
They're documentary photographers, but they do long-form storytelling, and it's quite
abstract.
So it's definitely not in the traditional mould.
And a lot of people find it a little bit kind of like, hmm, what does this all mean?
They just won the Deutsche Beurre Prize, which is a big sort of, you know, prize in that
world, but it's quite arty and abstract.
But that's exactly what I love about their work, their thinkers as well as visual.
Expressionists.
What are their names again, like?
Oliver.
Oliver Brunberg.
Look up the torchboards for us.
Oliver Channerin and Adam Brunberg, or the other way around.
They're actually a couple.
He's one's English, no one's from South Africa, and they're both Jewish, and super, like,
you know, they're from the intelligentsia, super smart, and they, one of my favourite
books that Everdone was one of theirs, and it's called Fig, as in figure, you know, figurative.
And if you get a chance to get your hands on that, it's quite hard these days.
It's a book well worth looking at.
They shoot sort of a large format, but they're now moving more towards the archives as well,
sort of mining archives.
And they just published a book through Mac publishers.
I think it's called The Bible, and they've literally, like, stuck pictures in on top
of the Bible.
And it's sort of a very political commentary on the world, and sort of current modern international
relations.
They're really interesting.
Smart photography.
With the Dutch boss price, maybe you can look that up.
Yeah, if you look that up, you'll find them.
And, oh, just look up Chopped Lever.
That's their website.
All right.
And what about the first guy that you said as well?
Alex Soth.
Oh, Alex Soth.
Yeah.
S-O-T-H.
He's great.
Love his stuff.
And he shoots, well, he doesn't so much now, but earlier in his career, he was shooting
8x10 large format.
Where's he from?
He's from Minnesota in America.
They're all from America.
Great tradition of photography there.
The last thing I wanted to ask you, just a personal opinion, you've had a pretty impressive
list of exhibitions and competition in inclusion and competition exhibitions.
A couple of times the National Portrait Prize, the Josephine Ulrich and Schubert Photography
Award, publication in hijacked, and the William & Winifred Bounds Prize.
There seems to be today a lot of photographic competitions.
Sony World competitions.
Like, just every opportunity, every corner there you turn, there's maybe a new competition
that sprouts up, asking for an entry fee to, I guess, entice photographers to show their
work.
Now I want you to hand over the copyright, if you look at the Moran Prize, which is the
richest prize in Australia.
Do you hand over the copyright?
Pardon?
Is it true?
Yes.
You hand over the copyright.
You basically, well, you keep copyright.
They've just updated it, so yeah, so they've amended it.
So you don't, yeah.
There was a bit of an outcry anyway.
Look, I was actually talking about this with Julie Sunberg on the email just this week,
and I've actually given up the Time Machine magazine, and in fact, Light Journeys is going
to come to an end too in a couple of months.
And one of the reasons I've walked away from these online publishing ventures is not because
I don't love them, I absolutely do, but there's only so many hours in the day, and one of
the things that's important to me is that my practice comes first.
Like, I'm a photographer first, and I love curating, and I love looking at other people's
work and kind of putting it together and sharing it, but that comes second.
And there was a point where, you know, I felt slightly in crisis because a lot of people
are referring to me as a curator, and I kind of went, hang on, I've actually got a practice,
and that's way more important to me than the curating.
And like, the curating's really fun, and I love it, but it's not the ultimate pinnacle
of achievement for me when it comes to photography.
And you know, I've been told by so many curators and practitioners, well you can't be both,
you've got to be one or the other.
And whilst I think on some level that's absolute bullshit, I think on another it's kind of
true in the sense that, you know, like I have a life outside of photography as well,
like I'm also a mum, and that's really important to me, and I'm a friend and a daughter,
and I have other interests in my life that isn't photography, although photography is
a pretty massive part of that, and makes up a big part of my identity.
It's not the only thing I do, and I was over-burning myself to put it in a nutshell,
not sleeping, and I just thought something's got to give in the online magazines
basically the first things to go.
So they still have a presence, they're still online, I want the archive to be there forever and ever,
and in fact the NLA have brilliantly archived it in perpetuity on their Pandora system,
which is awesome, I'm very happy about that.
So as, you know, technical media kind of moves along,
they'll keep updating it to make sure that it's there for future generations,
so that's kind of exciting.
Now I kind of like to think that we've maybe contributed at least to that conversation
for Australian photography at this point in history.
So maybe in 100 years it could be a really good archive for somebody.
But do the amount of competitions, which you've obviously entered and received a lot of recognition from that,
is that something that you think helps or hinders photographers?
I decided in 2009, I was sort of getting close to the end of my masters,
and I decided at the beginning of that year, that was the year I was going to enter
every single bloody competition out there, and I was going to put myself out there.
That was it. I committed to it, and so I did.
And it paid off, I have to say.
I ended up a final student head on, I think, and what do you call it,
the one here in the National Portrait Prize.
I did one of those.
The ACP very briefly did these portfolio reviews,
and you had to kind of submit to do the review.
It was sort of like a judging process.
Anyway, I got into that, so I travelled up to Sydney, did a portfolio review,
and actually Alastair included me in a group show called Inheritance,
which actually provided a bit of a turning point for my work,
because not only was I in that group show,
but I was also in the front four of the ACP with the head on.
And there was this sort of, I guess, domino effect.
I just kept entering, and I guess, I don't know what it is.
Maybe people become familiar with your name or something.
I have no idea, but I had a good year.
And then the following year, I had a better year.
I won the Bound S, that was pretty amazing.
And then things started to slow down, as they do.
And I kind of have decided to become a little bit more discerning about,
you know, because these things are expensive.
Even if you're getting as fineless, which is great,
you've got to print the work, you've got to frame the work,
you've got to ship the work there,
and if it doesn't get acquired, which is usually what happens,
you've got to ship it back.
This adds up, and there's like dozens of competitions in any given year.
And I mean, while some of the prizes are amazing,
that are attached to them, you know, your chances of winning
can be slim, you know.
So I've kind of decided to step right back.
I made a conscious decision this year not to enter that many.
I've entered a couple.
I'm in the olive cotton at the moment.
It's just about to open up in the warm bath,
but I've just kept it to...
I've been much more discerning, largely because of cash flow,
but also because I just don't want to put my energy into that right now.
Kind of just want to focus on my work and focus on my projects.
It's really kind of about keeping it simple
and not being here, there and everywhere.
And solidation.
Absolutely. I've got to do it.
For me, I would have gone mental, I think, otherwise.
You know, I'm still human, so...
Cool.
Yeah.
On that note, I want to say thank you very much.
Thank you, thanks for coming.
It's been a great...
It's been a great night.
Yeah, it was a bit co-edited to the ear, I'm sorry, for the microphone.
But yeah, it's really lovely.
If you haven't got a copy of the book and you'd like to,
I think there's some copies here.
And yeah, we'll thank you all for coming.
Can you buy it?
You can.
You can definitely buy it.
Thank you.
Thank you, thanks for coming.
