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larını Methodביadurll, Fyfan, Roedd yn ychwaneguwn i gyfen cyfrydd flynedd Cymru.
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The Artistic Director of Scottish Ballet has done something extraordinary in inviting theatre director and his choreographer to make a wonderful three act ballet of Streetcar.
And I'm delighted that Ashley Page, the Artistic Director of Scottish Ballet, is here and he's going to tell us a little bit about how the project began, Ashley.
I've always wanted to try this experiment of working with the theatre director, leading on a project for the company, working closely with the choreographer, of course.
And I first saw Nancy's work before I became an autistic graduate of this company back in 2001 on an American tour and I was one with the role line one thing in Washington, it was at the Kennedy Center.
And it was a production of the Mill on the Floss which was an adaptation of George earlier model that Nancy's company shared experiences with me and it struck me how movement was used in a specific way to enhance the undercurrents in the narrative.
There would be passages where the narrative, the dialogue would stop and a sound or music would come in and the action would be suspended but then continue in a purely physical way.
And it struck me that this is something that could be done with dance to a much greater level.
So I kind of pondered this for a while and as the company here in Glasgow developed I started to feel that time was right to maybe try this experiment.
So I met Annabelle, I invited Annabelle along with a series of other people to be part of the choreographic workshop two years ago, so February, March 2010. And I felt from the work that Annabelle produced in the workshop that she might be the ideal choreographer to be allied to a theatre director.
They worked in theatre and with theatre companies and actresses as well as dancers herself. So I introduced Nancy to Annabelle and threw in a few ideas and quickly, and that's what we're going to tell you about this in a minute, quite quickly he came to the conclusion that street call would be a good thing to pursue, but we did look at other things first.
I think it's very trailblazing actually for an artistic director to do that, especially an artistic director is also a choreographer because you're understanding that there may be moments in choreography that don't go far enough in terms of narration and characterisation.
And I think that's an extraordinary thing that Scottish Ballet has done and I really applaud you for it actually for taking that step. I'd also like to put a face to some of the names that you've just said and I should have introduced the panel straight away. I'm so sorry I was a bit excited.
So the lady at the end here, this is Annabelle Lopez Ochoia, she is the choreographer that Ashley was speaking about just now who's been chosen to make the dance steps for street calm.
And then next to her is Nancy Meckler, who is a theatre director that Ashley was just talking about. Also all of these people are going to join the discussion, they're not just here for decoration. And then there is Tama Badi, who's decorative as well, and he's going to play Stanley in the first cast of Streetcar named Desire.
And then the fabulous Eve Mozzo, who's sitting next to me, and she is going to play Blange Dubois. So I would like, if I may, just to ask Nancy a question actually to start with.
I was just wondering, but Ashley initially suggested the idea of coming in to work with dance and work with ballet. Whether you had any caution or any second thoughts about it, it's a very unusual thing for a theatre director to be honest.
Well, it was certainly very surprising. And yes, of course one would feel cautious because I never really worked with dancers before. Although I did work on it, I did direct a film that was about a dance company, so I felt I had a very good introduction in a way.
What film was that?
It's a film called Alive and Kicking, and it was all about a British dance company.
So I met quite a few dancers then as we had dancers working on film. But because, with my company's shared experience, I've always been so interested in the extent to which you can express things without words, and we have worked in that way quite a bit, but without dancers.
So for me, it suddenly felt like it would be rather wonderful that you'd be able to explore things with people who can go so much further physically, particularly when you're working with actors.
The one thing you really miss is the moment when you want somebody to go up in the air or you want somebody to be lifted, and it's such a chore for actors to try to achieve something like that.
So it's been fantastic for me that, you know, you could just say, oh, wouldn't it be lovely if so-and-so went up there and up they go, you know, second nature to all those people.
So for me, it felt like it was an extension of something I'd been, I have been doing for quite a while, and a great privilege really to have the chance.
But would you say it's the main kind of difference, immediate difference, when you're in the studio with the difference between actors and dancers, apart from the obvious thing like physicality and being able to go up in the air?
Is there anything about the mindset of a dancer and an actor which is very different?
Well, I think, interestingly, I think that dancers are so incredibly positive. I think they really have to be, or just probably in the profession.
So that you don't feel that you get a lot, what you can get often with actors is, oh, I don't feel too anxious about this, or I don't feel prepared, or I feel confused.
You know, and it's very exhausting because you feel like saying, oh, just do it, just think, don't think so much.
But actors feel they have the right to be confused in their research and everything, whereas dancers are just so keen to really understand what you're talking about and go for it 100%.
And I find that really refreshing, I have to say.
You hear that, guys, you're not allowed to do any of those things that you just said.
Have you taken the inspiration from the film, or the play, or both, or neither, actually?
Well, I directed the play many years ago, so it's still sort of in my psyche somewhere.
And of course the film, you know, I had seen the film, although I didn't really watch that, but watch it that carefully again.
It has so many iconic moments in it.
Because I was really keen that Annabelle and I should really be able to create something that really was a ballet of streetcar named Zire,
rather than an attempt to put a play or a film on stage.
I think it's really important, if you're working in another medium, that you just say, this isn't the film and it's not the play.
It's inspired by those things.
But if you're making ballet, you should really feel like you can take off from it.
That the play is almost at the film, or almost like a launching pad, and an inspiration, rather than something you're trying to serve or copy.
And it's exactly from what you're saying right there that I understand why the choice was made by Ashley,
actually, is if you're understanding of how that could come together and I could work in such a positive way without making too many,
probably compromises, in fact, quite the opposite.
And I wonder if both of you, Annabelle and Nancy, if you could talk a little bit about how you prepared to work together.
Was there a...
Go on.
It wasn't your ass.
My ass, yes.
I mean, we met a year ago in London for a week, and we decided to take the book and see how chronologically all the events were happening,
because we realized that in dance there's no past tense you can't have, and then there was, and then it happened.
So we had to make a scheme of all the events, and in that week, during that week, we went to see some shows and performances,
and we found out that we had actually the same taste, so that was really a welcome information about each other.
And then, I think, we set that really in the very sketchy way up.
And then, I think, six months later, we met again, and then we decided to revise the entire script and set how many minutes would be at each scene,
and did we forget some details, how we're going to explain that suddenly he gets a phone call from Laurel,
so we had to find other images for that, and that's how.
So, in that case, it's a kind of technical, cinematographic kind of way of looking at the piece,
but I'm very interested to know whether both of you saw the character, because you're both very different people from different backgrounds,
and you will have seen them at different times in your lives at this play, this film.
So, did you both see the characters in the same way, or was there a very different way that you both interpreted the main characters in the film and the play?
Well, I think you end up talking about the characters a lot, really, when you're trying to create a scenario.
You talk about what drives the characters, you talk about what is it about that character that really interests you for this particular scenario,
and I think it was just probably lucky that we had very similar ideas and taste, and that we weren't in conflict about it.
There was more of a thing of saying that these are the sorts of things, or I would say these are the sorts of things I think we really have to emphasise about Stanley,
and we weren't in a situation where Annabel was saying, no, no, no, I think we should be emphasising something else.
It seemed to come together quite easily. I think if it hadn't, we probably wouldn't have really been able to carry on.
I was just interested in whether you gave each other additional nuances to the characters that you already knew, but I think that you were already quite...
I think we must have.
I think you must have, otherwise it would have become such an interesting creative partnership in the way it sounds.
Annabel, how did you prepare for the rehearsal period?
Well, I usually don't prepare too much, because I've come across during all the time that I've been choreographing,
that the more I prepare, the more I prepare steps and I get stuck in the studio laterally.
So I prepare myself to be completely open and to improvise, and therefore I shouldn't be fear.
I shouldn't feel anguish, and I also prepare to open myself to suggestions from the dancers.
I knew that for Blanche I wanted her that character to be on point shoes and a very gentle whole way through, and that for Stanley obviously not on point shoes.
Much more grounded in his movements, and for Stella I wanted more voluptuous, natural movements.
And you listened to the music a lot beforehand?
Yes, but not as in counting the bars, I don't do that.
It's just that it gets in the mood, and I guess our composer also really set a certain build-up in each scene that is very easy to follow.
So I knew already before I came to the studio that this is the build-up probably,
and in some scenes he really had every second, like one minute and 12, Stanley comes in and he does that.
We had to sometimes also go away from that.
I can imagine that you don't want to hide into that kind of...
But from many scenes he's actually right, and maybe it's because he's worked so much for films and television,
so he knows how people move around, how much it takes to go through emotions and to go to another action.
So do you feel that your choreography then is like a journey through a soundscape,
rather than thinking about it representing the music as some choreographer would do?
For each scene, the music is mainly filming.
For each scene it's different, so I have some train scene or crowd scene that's really uncounted,
because I have 16 people moving at the same time.
But usually I'm much more intuition, I follow my intuition when I go to the music.
I don't predict common music.
I'm interested that Blanche is on point because yes, it's very genteel,
but it's also quite vulnerable as well, as a kind of teacher,
that happens if you're on point.
So I can imagine her coming across as quite brittle if she was on point,
and a little bit on the edge of her toes, in fact.
Thank you.
Tama, and I've seen you this afternoon a little bit in the nursing,
and I can't believe that you were up there 20 minutes ago when I looked at you.
You look at you sitting so relaxed and beautiful.
I was just wondering if you could give us a dancer's perspective
on the kind of process that you've been through,
and how it feels about the emotional depth of the characters
that sometimes in ballet, particularly in classical ballet,
you might not get the chance to plumb the depth of such a psychosis
and neurosis from that dark side so much.
Tama, how does it feel to have such an iconic kind of character to work with?
I think amazing. Obviously, firstly, amazing.
You don't get this kind of character very often as a dancer,
especially I think we were really lucky to work with both Nancy and Annabelle
because having two people's input into it and two same view, as they've said,
but two very different avenues to come at it was really good
because I feel I've been able to build a much more rounded character
than I possibly would have on my own steam, absolutely.
Also, they had such a strong idea of where the character was going,
and if I sort of started veering off the wrong way,
they were very aware of where to take it.
So I found that really good, but the character itself is fantastic.
It's so complex and so interesting,
especially to play a character that can so easily be hated,
but at the same time, you've got to try and find something that the audience cares about.
They need to care for this character for them to care about the situation that this character embodies.
So all of that is so difficult to do in dance and so difficult to do in steps.
The other thing that I thought was great is that we've taken any kind of ballet mime
or any of those sort of classical nuances out
and tried to do it completely through standing or movement
or how we look at each other or where we place objects in the space and things like that,
which I think has been a really interesting process
because it's given me certainly something that I can take forward into future works
because it was a complete learning experience,
and I think that's as well been one of the great things
that I've managed to gather so much new information in this process as well.
The thing with Stanley, isn't it, is that he's incredibly territorial
and so I suppose the audience can relate to that as a kind of vulnerable part of him.
Is it all he's trying to do is hold it together in his territory
no matter how kind of ghastly and squalid it is it still is?
Absolutely. It's what he can make of the world, of his world,
and it's not through lack of trying to make better.
It's that's all he can get at the time, being an immigrant being...
All of these things kept him in a place
and so he had to try and create his power in different areas
by being aggressive towards people or fights and bowling alleys
and that was his way of holding his world
so absolutely he had to keep his territory.
That was all he had essentially.
So are you going to make us like you as Stanley?
Hopefully.
I don't know whether I want to make you like me
but I want that you have sympathy.
You need to care about him because he's not one dimensional paraffin.
There's a reason why he's the way he is and the things he does.
Eve, Blanche cures for Stanley, or does she?
And how does it feel for you to...
As he's an icon so obliged of why, he's an incredible female icon,
not very feminist but certainly female.
How do you feel about her?
She's such a complicated character
and I couldn't be happier to play her.
I think she's quite scared to realise that
trying to escape from this passion and past
she finds herself in her sister's flat
and she's attracted to her husband.
So from then on I think she's trying to
start a new beginning,
trying to feel like very small for her
to survive in the world.
She's very fragile, very sensitive character
and it's almost impossible for her to function.
So you can see her struggle quite a bit
and Stanley isn't making it any better.
It's very easy and there's all sorts of distractions
and attractions.
She's also very self-destructive,
almost in the kind of way you find her.
She's addicted to alcohol and alcoholic
so there's this whole kind of fragility inside her
and physically she needs something to give her strength.
That past holds her quite a bit.
So it takes over her life.
She's so very sad and broken by the fact
that she made a mistake in her youth.
As they say, past is the present.
She can't escape, it keeps coming back
and more she gets into the darker places
the more it takes over her life
and eventually she does make a decision
on going to Dreamland because it is impossible
to function in reality.
Does the Dreamland also have shadows in it?
Definitely.
But there's a tiny little hope still
which kind of reaches towards.
But I guess that keeps her real everywhere.
We can have a look at you actually in action
in the studio which I'm still looking forward to
and I think that you guys are going to talk over
and give us a little narrative as things go along.
Yeah, let's see.
Are we ready to go?
This footage is taken in the first few weeks.
The world is so different now.
It is, but that plunges her soul
where she is looking a bit like a mom.
She has lots of very reaching moments.
She's attracted by light
and also she does get too close to the light
which will burn her.
What you don't see here is that she's going to be dancing
under a light bulb
and that's why she's all the time looking at it
and reaching for it.
It's inspired by the fact that Tennessee Williams
almost called the play The Moth.
That's where we got the image from.
She's a very curious character
at least at that stage of the ballet.
And almost probably wonders
if she can survive in the world, with the world.
She wants to go towards a light
even though she knows it's going to burn her.
That's a really great metaphor for her journey in general.
She hasn't made a mistake yet, but you can see
she's not the most secure person.
Are these people walking?
Are they funtons or are they real people?
Is this a street scene?
They're the cars.
Of course we wanted to make a full-leg valley for the entire community.
So we came up with an idea how to use the entire company as a chorus.
Tom, I think there should be someone who is very foldable.
Absolutely. This is a scene from the beginning of Act 2
and it's the opening of Act 2 and it's Stella and I.
She's just woken up and I'm having a coffee before work.
And what this shows really well is the creation of a scene.
So something as simple as where you put a glass,
how you push a glass around someone,
what that means.
In this, how you touch someone's hand,
it's all thought about and all connected and choreographed.
Nothing's left to chance.
You can see that even if you put your neck back,
put your neck forward, how is Sophie on my body,
the whole thing has to be connected.
And here you can see not everything works either.
You've got to try different things.
And then of course when you change one movement,
then it's going to affect all the best.
So you're sitting in one position and you use a different arm,
then it changes in the body completely
and then it becomes another piece of choreography.
Absolutely. And it's got to in the end tell a message,
it's got to tell a story.
It was wonderful to see your dance
and so the emotional depth of the characters
that we've already talked about,
which is wonderful to hear.
And I'm wondering if there's anything that you guys haven't talked about yet
that you feel that's part of this whole production,
this whole experience that you're having.
Which talk a bit about the design.
Yes.
Just the choice.
Yes, I mean, I think one of the things that really released us
when we were trying to come up with a scenario
was when we suddenly thought
maybe we shouldn't try to think so literally about, you know,
this is a couple that live in New Orleans
and they've got an apartment
and it's got two bedrooms
that maybe we should try to think of everything much more metaphorically.
And so we started thinking what if we saw the whole piece
as a battle between Blanche's character
and Stanley's character as to who is going to finally get Stella
as if Stella is the prize in between these two
and that if we tried to think of it that way
then we need to be on a battleground
and if we need to be on a battleground
maybe we need to perform it in a very rough space.
So while we were creating the scenario
we kept saying we're in a rough space
we kept imagining a disused train yard
which would just be a little bit like
outside the window of the tramway
but then when we were working with the designer
Nikki Turner
and I said we really want a rough space
but it doesn't necessarily have to look like a disused train yard
she came up with the idea of what if it looked like
a station, an abandoned railway station
which is something that has a great poetic resonance
because it's about journeys
it's about if it's abandoned
then it's about the past
and it's also train stations often are a place
for having dreams of changing your life
going from one place to another
so she's created a set which it's very very suggestive
because we don't want it to be too dominant an image
but it does feel it is an abandoned train station
and so then we realise that all the furniture
and everything could just be part of whatever you would find
in a place like that
we talked about abandoned crates
using lots of crates
and then Nikki had a great idea
which was that if we put all the crates together
and made a wall of crates
maybe we could have a huge image on the crates
of the beautiful southern mansion that Blanche leaves behind
from her childhood
and then of course it had fallen apart
so you need to disassemble it as well
it disassembles during the show as well
and I think a train station as well
is a place where you would always
well sometimes rely on the kindness of strangers
which is one of the taglines I think from the movie
but right now I'm not going to rely on the kindness of strangers
but of Emma Jane
and Emma Jane is live now
so if you have any questions on Twitter and Facebook
and online
you've got at least one I hope
Can we do more?
Absolutely I think it's a Facebook question
for a lot of people trending
well not trending but talking about it
so there's a lot of excitement out there
so that's great
OK so this is from Esther
and she's really interested in how
do dancers have a different way to connect to characters
compared to actors
Is this a question for a choreographer?
I think for Nancy really
Well I wasn't sure about that
but I think the truth is that when you're working with actors
actors all work so differently anyway
they have different ways of feeling connected
and I found that certainly when I offered
the way I thought about characters to these dancers
they were very receptive to it
so I didn't feel that it was that far
but I don't care
Did it feel far into you the way I was talking to you about character?
I don't think so
I think it felt quite natural
I think we normally talk about character quite similarly I think
I guess
I think you're surprisingly not that different
You insisted of thinking what was your
must what was your
What is your want?
That's very different
We've been normally keeping the steps
so you have to work around the steps
but now we're working around our
intentions and desires and wants
I mean that's something that I always use
when I'm working with actors
but what I found was that when I did ask them to think about that
they were very good at it
so maybe they aren't asked that often
but when they were asked
they could do it really well
really able to concentrate in the right kind of way
to play what is your want
what is your need, what is your desire
And then choreographically
Annabelle would be I'm sure
taking it into the physical as well
so that the character isn't just coming out in your face
and in the naturalistic movements
and dramatic movements
but it has to be there
in every movement that you're making
Yeah
Okay well I'm sure that answered
Esther's question to you
She's delighted with that
Awesome, wonderful students from
Annie's Land College here with us this evening
so our first question
is from Nicky
Nicky, here you go
How do you portray these difficult matters
in that dance form?
Is it vocabulary, classical
or is it contemporary?
It's a mix of both
I wanted to keep the character of
Blanche on pointions
and so lighter and classical
and all the other characters
are quite contemporary
so all the choruses are the on-pointions
when they're the family in Bellevif
and the rest of the piece is either jazz
because we'll have some jive
or contemporary
Okay, next we have Chloe
Jane, here we go Chloe
Hi
What are you looking for
in your dance form
so that they can portray the strong persona
of the characters?
What are you looking for?
No, I think that Nancy was really looking
really casting
was almost like a movie
She was casting
she looked in the dancer
in their personality
if they were close to that character
and
were you here?
I'm not sure about that
Well there's a certain physicality
about everybody
and of course Luke
for example another dancer was a very good dancer
he didn't have the physique
sometimes you use it
you look at the physique
but actually
we did spend time with the dancers
that we thought might be playing the roles
and we did lots of exercises with them
where we were doing a kind of improvisation
where they were
working with the basic desires
or wants of that character
so that we could just see
how far they could take it
that we had three days
when we were here where we were
doing these exercises with the dancers
and that helped us to see
who could play Blanche, who could play Stella
that sort of thing
it's pretty difficult to just know
you have to audition on
do exercises or something
to sort of glean what qualities
people can bring to it
Okay lastly
we've got Stephanie
Stephanie
Do you think it's difficult to translate
script and to movement?
To translate script
and to move me?
I think because we decided
that we weren't worrying about
the text so much as thinking of it
as an inspiration
I think this is the story
but we can tell it the way we want to tell it
because it's going to be a ballet
we don't have to say well he said this
how are we going to get that into
how are we going to get that into movement
and once you free yourself
it makes it much easier
and I think we try to see in each scene
what is important in that scene
why all these words there
is it about territory
is it about the desire to someone
so we try to take
the essence of each scene
and make our own scene about it
and we have a lot of scenes
that are not in the play
and they are not in the film
in the play
they are not going to the bowling alley
but they don't go to a bowling alley
and we do
we have a lot of scenes
which are really going on inside Blanche's head
and in the film and in the play
you would only get a small mention of that
whereas in the ballet
you could fully see and hear
what's going on in her head
so it lends itself hugely
to just opening it up
rather than trying to copy it
which is one of the reasons
you chose that as a subject
yes because as a play
it lends itself to that
if you have a main character
whose fantasy life
is so strong
and who is so haunted by memories
and she can only talk about them
it's fantastic to have ballet
and think well every time she has a memory
and she's haunted we can see it and hear it
it's a gift
do you have anything else
from online this way?
yes we do
we've got a question about
the very famous scene
where Stanley shouts
Stella
exactly
with dance being a non-verbal communication
how do you say to the dance
that you want to shout Stella
guess what
he does it really well
it's fantastic
we didn't know
whether the dancers could do it
but Annabelle just said come on
we're going to have a go
so fantastic
can I just say what a joy it is
I sometimes do chair other dance discussions
and sometimes it's very difficult
to get a creative team
to talk about what they're doing
it's not a normal situation
most people like this
live in the studio most of the time
and it's just been an absolute joy
really thank you so much
for being so articulate
and thank you Ashley for having the vision
to put together a team like this as well
I'm very excited about
Street Carnet Desire
I hope everyone who's watching this
and also all the people that are in this room
will come to see it often
thank you
you
