What led you to choose this district, not only to teach, but also for your kids to learn?
Diversity on a multiple levels, not just racial diversity.
There's a cultural diversity here in Maplewood and South Orange.
There's a religious diversity.
There's a lifestyle diversity.
And we had come from New York City and I really highly prized the lifestyle of a New Yorker
who you dealt with on a regular basis and what you were exposed to.
So I really was looking for a community that would broaden my children's viewpoint, point
of view of the world and what it was really like.
And the Maplewood South Orange community really fit the bill.
There is a system in the middle schools that is noted and that is in policy.
The policy is available for everyone to see and the policy describes how we place students
based on grades, teacher recommendations and other factors.
There are a different number of levels depending on the subjects and different number of levels
in different grades.
Over the years I've seen the fours become huge classes.
There seems to be more and more kids put into the four, what's considered the top.
The level three, as an eighth grade teacher now, the kids in sixth and seventh are not
leveled.
And so this is their first experience being leveled.
And what I see with that by de-leveling the sixth and seventh, the levels seem clearer
in eighth.
So when you have a level four group, it's clearly a top-functioning group.
The level three is kind of like the kids who do well, but there's a little less motivation.
And the level two has become such a mix.
It's usually half-special ed, so there's an in-class support teacher.
And then it's just a handful of kids who just don't seem to fit.
There are individual cases of movement from level to level, but certain facts remain.
And the fact is, is that AP has always been almost all white.
When I got here, it's the same.
Two-level is almost all black.
That's remained the same.
And three-level is majority black.
Always has been.
The difference that I've seen, there might be some movement, but honors looks roughly
the same.
I would say when I got here, my classes were two-thirds white and one-third black.
I'm talking about honors.
Now they're about half and half.
But if the levels were supposed to function so that those kids who were so far behind
got the help that they needed, why are they so far behind?
And are you telling me, literally, that such a large concentration of black children in
your community can't?
And are you telling me, with all confidence, that such a large concentration of white students
in the community just can?
And do you really want to talk?
And lots of people want to talk about this.
They want to de-racialize the conversation.
No, let's talk about skills and pace and curriculum and no, let's talk about all of the components
of this system, race being the one that most clearly marks the differences between the
children.
I mean, most of us moved to this district because we wanted to live in a diverse community.
We recognized that this district, these two towns, Maplewood and South Orange, are very
unusual in the United States, very rare, unfortunately, for their racial integration.
And we want to see them succeed.
And we certainly are all hoping that we will find ways to close the racial achievement
gap.
There's nobody who's defending leveling with the goal of trying to maintain a racial
achievement gap or something like that.
There are just differences of opinion about what the best strategies are and what serves
all of our students as well as possible.
They found that the percentages of students who were successful in pursuing a degree and
earning a degree, there was a very high percentage of those students who were in level four,
five or six classes when they were in 11th grade.
And that the students in 11th grade who were in level two or three classes are relatively
lower level classes were not nearly as successful in earning their way towards a college degree.
So I saw that data and I went to the board's policies, the district's policies, which have
been in existence for decades, probably.
And I saw that level three was labeled college prep.
And we have a level called college prep, but once students are done with it and they go
to college, they're not able to be successful in earning a degree.
So that really brought up not only a point of semantics, but a point of belief system
and what level of expectations we have for our students that we would tell students,
okay, maybe you're getting a B in your level three class, it's college prep, you're doing
fine, when really it's not preparing them to be successful in college later, which is
the whole point.
Well I think before senior year, people are kind of, people talk about it more, but I
mean once senior year hits, people don't really talk about it as much, it's kind of like,
I mean whatever level, just get the work done, you know, get to college, worry about college.
Personally, I think a lot about what, not just what needs to be fixed, but just how,
because it's so difficult, because you know, you put, when you level in seventh grade, then
you're telling half the school that you're dumb, you're in a lower level, but at the
same time I remember when I got to seventh grade, it was kind of refreshing to be in
a leveled class, because all of a sudden, all of the kids in my class had done the reading
and when we split into groups, everyone knew what they were talking about in conversation.
And so it was, it's, I don't know, it's hard.
I mean it's a little bit, the teachers take a little bit more time with the students level
three, but at level four, it really didn't feel that much different.
That's the only thing I really could tell is that the teachers would take like more time
with level three, like level four, we would move a little bit faster.
I think most people are more like, if you work hard, you'll go up, you know, level,
you'll go up a level, level three, level four, but I mean, some people are like, yeah, it's
racist, you know, the system is racist, but I mean, I think most people don't think that.
All the upper level students that are in like a 4-0, 5-or-18, they are in favor of leveling
because they believe that the students that are in level two or three, if they're in
the same class with them, it will slow the pace and they won't get as much in as a class
that is not mixed.
And then all the kids that are at level two or three, they believe that leveling shouldn't
happen because they can, they believe that they can keep up in a mixed class or in a
class with over four students.
If that's the case, they should just move up to level four.
So let's have an honest conversation about this class, right?
It's a multi-level.
I have fours, I have threes, we have twos, and we have students who need extra support
or who need extra support.
So the question is, how are you all feeling about this class and its structure and its
pace and I'm going to start with Josh.
As someone who comes from all level fours, fives, and EPs, I feel this class is too slow
and almost, you know, like, you know, just a lot of talking, a lot of, you know, slowing
down things.
Like, you know, we probably should be done with this play already and on to a third or
fourth by now if this was strictly a level four class because of just, there is a difference
in pace and it's not like, you know, myth or anything, it's true, you know, I've seen
it.
Yes, levels do help separate the students and multi-levels do help create a different
opinion on things because we certainly have a different opinion than a level four class
would strictly have.
But the thing about it is each and every student learns differently.
That's the reason why we're trying.
So then why put different learning pieces together if everyone needs a different thing?
There's only, in this classroom, two teachers in the most one.
They can, you know, I'm not a teacher but I'm sure it's extremely hard to get to adjust
all those individual needs of people.
So that's why leveling by singling out the different people can get the different attention
for the different intellectual level.
That's why that's the perfect idea.
But not that it is that in practice but in ideology, that's what it should be.
But in real life, they're not going to take everyone who has an IQ of 130 and put them
all in one building and then everyone who has an IQ of 129 put them in a different building.
Everyone in real life moves at different paces and needs to move at different paces.
I think that the thing I notice about the two level kids is that they're very, very
beat down in a lot of ways.
Like when you ask them to grapple with something truly intellectual, they have a lot to say
but they're not confident in what they say and you can see it in their body language,
you can see it in so many, just so many aspects of how they are whereas the honors kids are
not shy about, especially the boys, you know, there's the other gender gap.
But they'll say what they have to say, they're not always right but they're confident and
I think everybody should be confident in what they say.
I think it's like who you're around, like level two students, if they're in all level
two classes, you know, they're not going to be motivated.
Yeah, because everybody's like, what's the problem, what's the behavior?
The guy next to you is going to be like, like, he's not going to help you, he's going to
be goofing off.
But for instance, if you're in like a mixed class like this, if the guy next to me over
there is like getting all A's, I'm not going to want to be the only guy in the class.
Yes, yes.
So you're saying it's mentality in the classroom where it's going to kick up people's minds
that they're going to like not want to be low like if you're going to be, you're going
to want to be high with the person, listen, you have to show that you deserve to be high
with them.
It's going to end up happening, period, because you're going to be level, if you put a level
two student next to a level four student, like the level two students, like I'm not
going to say, like, usually they're going to look up at the level four students and be
like, I mean, I could do this, like, why am I not doing this?
So it's going to click in his mind, he's going to end up doing it, but it's going to
be just like bypass all the distractions and like just not get it.
I'm saying when you put a level two and a level two, of course you all get behavior problem.
When you put level two and a level four together, you're not going to get it as much, so you're
not going to get it.
Look at this class.
That's not true at all.
It's not true.
It's not true.
It's not true.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
How many people have gotten in trouble in this class?
What are you saying?
People who have been moved out of this class?
Only one person.
I remember when I was first here, it was my second year, and I gave the kids, it was
a U.S. one class.
I gave all my classes, two, three, and four, this test.
It was a literacy test given by the state of Louisiana to basically to prevent black
people from voting.
I didn't tell the kids what it was about.
I just said, this is a test.
It's a reading test.
You guys should all be able to pass.
You know, it was unannounced.
So I gave it.
The honors kids diligently tried to answer these questions which are designed to not
be answered.
It's a test that's designed to make people fail.
So the honors kids were really sweating, they're really upset.
They were begging me not to count it, and I was playing like, no, it counts.
It's a reading test, blah, blah.
The three-level kids, the classes were so interesting, they would give up and say, I
remember one kid said, this is demoralizing.
I can't pass this.
And they just gave up.
Now, the discussions that ensued, I think the three-level kids and the two-level kids
just had much more to say.
They just were able to, I don't know what it is, they were able to speak on a high
level of this stuff, even without the historical background.
They can understand it.
The honors kids were worried about their grades.
And they, I think, are just more conditioned to play school better.
They never come without a pen or a notebook and those kind of things.
But not necessarily better thinkers.
So I think when you really come down to ability, intellectual ability, intellectual potential,
I think there's really equality across the board.
The only messed up thing is, to me, is your GPA and how the different levels affected.
Because either way, you're getting the same work done and some kids work hard in level
two or level three, but they can't go to level four.
And either way, you're going to struggle.
So it's kind of messed up that you have to work.
Yeah, your highest grade is still pretty low at level two.
I was in a class with Shaq in freshman year and sophomore year, I've been requested for
level four history for twice and I had eight minuses in that class and they never gave
it to me.
But like, I'm doing really good in that class, you remember it with all that and like, I'm
doing really good in that class, but after a while, I'm like, what's the point of working
hard anymore?
What was the level in that class?
It was three.
Yeah.
Three.
After sophomore year.
Yeah, after sophomore year.
Thank you.
Where did you put in the level four?
Yeah, so.
And then where you were squeaking wheel with the counseling department?
I didn't want to get my mom involved because I was like, no, because like, I was like,
I mean, I earned it.
Like, why can't I just get it normally?
Because like, not everybody, I don't want to like, I don't want to just get my parents
because one of the kids in the class was getting a B or a C or something.
And he, all he had to do was complain and get his mom to come in and they got him in
the level four, which he's struggling out.
He struggled and had to drop out.
I often make recommendations up and then I could forget about it the next fall, but
I go and I track those kids down to find out if they really got moved up because they worked
hard in my class, they deserve to be moved up and they don't move up.
If it is something where it's being, the level is being challenged, then yes, that's correct.
You need the parent signature.
At this point, they've taken levels down to the bare minimum, basically of just math
in sixth grade especially.
The D-leveling in seventh has helped us actually clearly level them in eighth, if that makes
any sense.
So the level three years ago was kind of chaotic and now they do better as a class.
They function like just a class of kids who need a little extra push.
So I think they've actually kind of helped with behavior issues by D-leveling them in
sixth and seventh and then in eighth, keeping them level.
For most people, when we talk about gifted and talented programs being chipped away at,
we're really talking about that foregone, archaic term once upon a time called the level four
class.
You know, those kids who have been sent downstream with D-leveling into the mixed level three,
four, or when the Board of Ed didn't quite tell us what's not really forthcoming about
was that even in this now diluted group, a number of level two kids would be thrown in
all in the name of field group progressive thinking, ostensibly closing up the achievement
gap.
The real question I think for this community is going to be is this change D-leveling in
the middle school and it's likely to go on into at least some classes in ninth and tenth
grade I think in Columbia High School, is that going to help close the academic achievement
gap?
Unfortunately, I doubt that it's going to have much of an effect.
I hope I'm wrong because I think they're obviously going to go forward with it.
So I hope I'm wrong and that it does do some good.
So much of the studies show that the racial achievement gap opens up early on in elementary
grades.
You already see it.
I mean, the district's own data confirms that level assignments when they started in sixth
grade or now in seventh grade, later whatever grade if we have any levels at all, they correlate
very strongly with the reading levels, the performance of students in math and reading
in the third grade even and fifth grade and these are not leveled subjects.
So it doesn't seem that leveling is causing the gap, if you will.
It seems that it's an index, it's picking it up.
It's showing that there is a gap.
There are a lot of things that did not go well with leveling up in seventh grade last
year.
I lived through it.
What I haven't seen is any proposal about what to do to fix, what didn't work.
It's really disheartening.
I've actually kind of disengaged from it as I kind of have from news around the world
because I'm so disgusted by the ideologues and the partisanship that seems to me in
this battle and, of course, knowing the country at large as well and I don't think that people
are taking a step back to look at the macro picture and say, well, what really needs to
be fixed here?
We all agree that something needs to be fixed.
Let's just throw out leveling, throw out de-leveling, let's call it something else.
Let's just get rid of those labels right from the start and let's look at this curriculum
and is this the right curriculum and are we teaching it to the kids the right way?
I think what the system has created is a cast of kids you can throw away because, you know,
true ability grouping would give you what you need to move to a level of success.
If this is the mark of success, if the honors program is a mark of success, you know, if
it is the true mark of college preparedness, what is happening to the kids who are not
getting that?
Are we just to cast them aside?
I think that's how the levels function currently.
