David Carroll has been taking photographs for many years, but in the last few decades,
he decided to distribute those photographs in the form of books. Photo Eye has had an
ongoing relationship with David since we first carried his monograph, 40 Miles of Bad Road,
sometime after 2004. The second book, which is shown here in the white book, All My Lives
Are True, speaks volumes about the nature of photography, as well as David's personality.
This book was released in 2009. The final book, this is why we can't have nice things,
that David calls his non-book, which I would argue is a loose plate book, bound in a plexi box,
was released.
Does that mean I can use that way of shipping books?
Use what?
You know when you're shipping the post office?
Media mail?
Yeah, he has media mail.
Media mail, yeah, for sure. It was released last year, and it's almost sold out in a very
short period of time. In addition to being an award-winning self-publisher, David has
a day job working as a director of photography at CBS Outdoor, as well as contributing regularly
to emerging photographer magazine and rain finder magazine. His photographs are in many
prominent collections, including ICP in New York and the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston.
In his early years, he attended the School of Visual Arts, the new school for social
research, where he studied under Luzette Moudelle.
Wow, I didn't think...
And clearly see her influence in a lot of David's photos. Since that time, David has
taught himself much about photography, the photography world, and continues to share
his knowledge even more freely, and even more freely, his opinions about the world, with
the world at large. He is here today to share with us, so if you will please help me welcome
David to the show.
Very nice, thank you.
Is there any way to kill our style?
Yep.
So, everything she said, a lot of it's true. Some of it...I'd say more than half of it's
true.
All right, so here's the deal. So, I'm a photographer. I've been a photographer since early 80s.
I did a lot of commercial work in the early 80s. I...around 1985, I was signed with a photo
agency called the Image Bank. I don't know if anybody knows what that is anymore, but
it's become Getty. Getty bought it. And I shot a lot of stock in the 80s. And when I started
shooting stock photography and making money, I stopped shooting for myself. And I made
a conscious decision in the late 80s to stop really caring about the money part at the
photo agency and start shooting my own stuff again. And in 1991, I really started shooting
for myself a lot. And everything in my book starts pretty much in 1991, 1992. It's sort
of my personal vision of the world. This is really how I feel about talking about photography.
So I assume everybody knows who Kadelka is, if you don't, write down the name. He's probably
the...he's one of the two or three greatest living photographers right now. Pretty much
him, Robert Frank, and Lee Freelander, I'd say the three greatest living photographers.
Maybe there's someone else in there. I'm leaving out who matters. Elliot Orwitt. Elliot Orwitt.
So Kadelka, I think, kind of nails it with this. So that being said, I'm going to now
talk about photography, which is...there's an irony in that, right? Okay. So I have four
books out. The first book was a collaboration with a gallery that used to represent me that
was basically started as a catalog for his gallery to sell my photographs, a 10-year
retrospective. And I don't know what he'd say about it. It sort of has a small paper
back and turned into a cloth covered, hardcover book with a, you know, a tipped-in photograph.
So we went at it. It got kind of crazy. And that's how I dispelled my relationship with
photo-y. And they started selling my books. And after that, two more books, which I controlled
everything when they came out, because I decided I was going to make books. And to me, books
are the best way to look at photographs. I know shows, people love having shows, but
shows are transient. And I don't like looking at pictures, you know, on like that and a
show with people crowding you and all this sort of thing. I'm going to show right now
in New York, in the Museum of the City of New York, about street photography. I literally,
I went to the opening. And after that, I had to go back to the museum to see the pictures.
Because to me, on the wall, you know, this is nice and everything, but I want books.
I want to be able to sit in a bed, in a chair, and flip through pictures, and really take
in every photograph. I think it's the best way to do it. And that's why books matter
to me. And that's why the last two books, I sort of, I mean, I definitely self-published
them, but I did it with the cooperation of a lot of people, helping out. And this is
the first book. This is actually not a photograph of the book, this is a PDF. Doesn't look anything
like the book. This is the second book, which while I'm pressed, I decided to keep lowering
the ink levels to the point where you couldn't see it anymore. And I'm not saying I was inspired
by the white album, but I like the idea you can kind of go like this and I'm going to
say again, bookstores hated it, for the passion. ICP bookstore actually said to me, how is
anybody going to see what this is? And then they sold them all out the first week that
they put them out on the shelf. So there you go. And this is the last box. All right. This
is the truth about how I look at photography. But this is it. This is what I do. So let's,
I'm not even going to talk about commercial work, because I think it's boring. I don't
care about it. I write a column in Rangefinder, which is the back page of every issue of Rangefinder.
And it's the personal work of professional photographers. Because I don't care about the
professional work. It's about somebody else. When I judge photo contests, I don't do any
of the corporate stuff, because it doesn't matter to me. What matters is what you're
doing as a photographer. You know, your personal, what you look at and what you see. Although
I did learn one thing in Rangefinder trying to write this column. Most professional photographers
don't have any personal work. They think they do, but it looks just like the stuff they
shoot for money. So mostly I find photographers who shoot for themselves and kind of don't
make a living at it, actually. But we don't talk about that in public because then the
whole premise is gone. So welcome to this. When I'm traveling, I'm looking around pretty
much, everything is the same perspective. I actually, by the way, if you think this
is funny at all, I don't. It's really about a dog. And I was told a long time ago I take
funny pictures, but I really don't take funny pictures. I take happy pictures. So this is
one of my happy pictures. I actually have somebody, somebody bought this photograph
to put in their office, an attorney who's always miserable. And she literally put this
in her office. She goes, that's perfect. So I guess, I don't know. This is that kid
in the back, in the back row, after the, not Sandy, the storm, what was the storm two years
ago that hit New York? Irene. Yes. Irene hit New York. That was around the block from us.
That's a little boy with a big tree. So everything I photograph is really about myself and what
I see in the world and how I look at it. I don't know what, like, if Aileen's class is
here, I don't know what you guys talked about with photography, but to me, photography is
all about yourself. When people ask me what my books are about, I say they're about me.
They're just about me walking around and kind of like a little kid going, look at that.
That's not weird. And that's pretty much 99% of everything I shoot that's for me. I think
I looked at this and thought that was weird. Actually, I'm in this picture, but it doesn't
work in that one. This is a hotel bar in a room. I was traveling with my friend in Texas.
Anybody here from Texas? These are from Texas. So I don't know where this is. You're born
in Texas. So this was the honeymoon suite. They had no rooms available, and I wanted
a room for like 40 bucks, and they said, you know, for another 20 bucks, you get the honeymoon
suite. So basically what we got was this honeymoon suite where it was a bag behind me, which
looked like a regular room, and the honeymoon part. So, and you notice they must have just
vacuumed when they heard I was coming up there because they got the vacuum works there.
This is in Moscow. I went to Moscow the first time in 91 or 92. This says 93. I might have
made that up. I don't remember. But most of the way I can tell when I took a picture is
my lab puts a date on the envelope. So that's usually the way I can tell. This is in Moscow
in the winter. And one of the things interesting about, I mean, obviously I put a lot of things
in boxes. Yeah, I put a lot of things in boxes. I don't know why, and I didn't know this until
my first book was being edited, and the person editing it was in this loft. And she laid
all these prints out. And as we're walking through it and going in order, she goes, this
is sort of where the boxes are. And I said, what do you mean the boxes? And she goes,
you know, we put things in boxes and put boxes in it. I said, why did you tell me this? Now
I'm going to be thinking about boxes every time I go to take a picture. But apparently
I put a lot of things in boxes. So this woman in Russia is in boxes. And if you see the
candles, I later learned this is so the flowers don't freeze. It actually makes it warm enough
that they don't, because it's cold in Russia. You know, this is interesting. I just read
in that article that this is, I guess, ironic because it's a big open beach that looks like
you should fly kites in it. And as the science says, no kites. I don't even know if that's
what I thought. But I like it. So that's going to be my story going forward. Look at the
big beach you can fly kites on. You're not allowed to. We went to this beach. It's in
the South Shore Long Island just to look at it one day. I saw the sign and it was really
sort of a plain sky. I wasn't interested in taking a picture. But I knew there was a picture
there. So one day I was driving around and the clouds were rolling in over the ocean.
I said, oh, I got to get down there. And I couldn't find it. And I went to like two beaches
and the clouds were coming in. I found it again. And so I took the picture of it. And I'm not
even sure what it is about. But I think it's funny. This is one I admit is funny. Here
we go. So in 1987, on an assignment for the image bank, I went to the, I should preface
it, what I did in assignment going across the entire Canada for like three or four weeks
before the Olympics hit there. And my job was to start in the Maritimes and work my way
across the entire country, get every province, take pictures in it so they could use it for
the Olympics for this book that was coming up. And so they would have pictures that they
could use for that. So I got to go to the Arctic, not here, but a place called Tuk-tuk-yuk-tuk,
which is in north of Yellowknife. And you're up there. And it's basically, I guess out
there they're Denny or Eskimos and like a bunch of guys in big boots who are dirty
and looking for oil. So it's this weird contrast. The only white people they see pretty much
are RCMPs and Canadians or Americans looking for oil. So they're not thrilled with us up
there. But I went up there and I said, I want to go to the Arctic. This is cool. So I think
I convinced them to send me the Arctic. And I think the premise was that I was going to
photograph tundra and stuff like that that Air Canada and people could use for their
advertisements. And actually, the first time I went, I photographed icicles hanging off
an iceberg and Molson bought it for their Molson ice campaign. And it was the biggest
sale I ever made. I think back then in the 80s, I think I got like $12,000 for the buyout
of the icicles. And that was like a big, I'd like $12,000 now. But in 1987, it was really
good. 1987 without children, $12,000 was like awesome. So anyway, I loved it so much. This
is the kids, the nephew and the child of this guy, Elijah Panic Puchu. He was an Inuit.
They're called Inuits on that part of the north of Baffin Island, Oran Baffin Island,
part of the northwest territory, which is now called something else. And I would hang
out with these guys for like 10 days, 14 days, and just live on the land. And I'd be traveling
around with these dudes. Now, this isn't even that cold. This is kind of the springtime.
This is the first time I went. And I just would live with them and I'd shoot the stuff
for stock, the stuff they needed to, you know, so I had justified being there. But I kind
of just hung out with them in photographs. So this is probably three in the morning.
By the way, this time of year, it's light all the time. So basically, you don't know
what's going on, you know, it's just light. And suddenly it's like, suddenly you're exhausted,
kind of like here at 7,000 feet. We go, why am I tired all the time? And you're tired
because you've been awake for 30 hours and you're like, all right, I have to sleep now.
And I remember it was the, I think my watch said it was like three in the morning. And
I went into my tent and I came out immediately because I thought I heard something and these
dudes were hanging out, just chilling. So like chilling. And so I asked them, what's up?
And they're sitting there and they're watching for polar bears. So I'm not eating in the
middle of the night. So that was reassuring that an eight year old and a 13 year old were
going to protect me from being eaten by polar bears. As a side note about the third or fourth
time I went up there in the winter going forward, Elijah took us out. It was about eight to 10
hours to get out to the flow at this part of the ocean. And when we got there, he said,
I didn't bring any food. I said, oh, and he goes, but I'll go get some. And I said, okay.
And I mean, really, he sings and he's sincere. He's the greatest guy. My kid's middle name
is Elijah because of this guy. But he did say to me, I'll be back in a little while.
And he left me and my friend Joe in a tent just like that in the middle of the night
in darkness with a Coleman burner, two burners and cup of noodle to keep us warm while he
was going and no rifle and sleeping bags that weigh about 40 pounds because and you know,
when you're in these sleeping bags at 50 below, it's interesting. If you go like this and
air gets in your screw for about a half hour, because that's going to be like, oh, shit.
And then the other thing happens, you got to pee. And when you're in a sleeping bag at
50 below and you got to pee, you go, this is a life decision. So anyway, we're lying
there in the tent. And Joe decides, I'm like, Joe, this is weird, man, because we don't
have a gun and it could be polar bears. And anyway, we're out in the middle of the ocean
and it's middle of the night. And he's snoring. I'm like, I can't believe he's asleep. Now
I have to stay awake. This guy, Joe, by the way, travels with me. You're going to see
pictures of him coming up the Joe section. But Joe used to travel with me all the time.
And Joe's asleep snoring really loud, which probably attracts polar bears, right? And
he's snoring under his sleeping bag. And in the morning, Elijah did come back the next
day. So we're only there for about 18 hours alone. And Elijah came back the next day and
he had food and everything. And Joe, I said, Joe, how can you sleep? Weren't
you worried about it? I took a few valium. I'm like, you took the valium in the Arctic
when we were back. And this actually continues into some of our Russian escapades, where
we were traveling from, I think, Moscow to Tallinn, Estonia. And we were told, there's
no law anymore. It's early, you know, Russia was, Soviet Union was breaking up. There's
no law, there's no law anymore. There's nobody to protect you. So lock your door on the train
when you're going to Tallinn, because what they do is they knock on the door and say
they're customs. And then when you open the door, they kill you and take your stuff. I'm
like, oh, great. But the other thing they also do is they pump ether under the door
and that knocks you out. So you had two options of how to go down. So we're in the, we're
in this thing traveling, you know, bouncing around. And, you know, I'm Joe Erso, I'm thinking
about it as like Germany, you know, in the cold and the bouncing train. And it was horrible.
And at one point I said to Joe, if they do say passport at the door, do we not open it?
I mean, if we don't open it, don't they like arrest us? We have to, and he's asleep. And
I'm like, oh, fuck, he did it again. So he went to sleep and I tied up the doors with
straps. And of course, when we hit some border to somewhere, pass the board to pass the board.
I'm like, all right, this is it. And I opened it and they didn't kill us because that's
or if they did, I wouldn't be here. So yeah, so the same guy went to sleep. But all right,
so this is the Arctic in the middle of the middle of the night. And by the way, I like
when stuff comes out of a photograph as a sort of side note of photography, I love when
a hand comes in or a wire, or there's something in there that feels like there's a rest of
the world behind it. To me, this is kind of near here. This is from Vegas to Perump. It's
actually called the road to Perump, I think. And maybe I mistitled it. But yeah, this is
I don't even know this. I guess this is one of those Jacob things. What are they called?
Joshua tree. Yeah, yeah. Joshua tree. But it was or me, it was Christmas. We used to
go every. This is like the photography. I'm not trying to be funny. I swear to you. What
were we doing? Oh, we used to go to Death Valley every winter, me and Joe. And we'd
go there every winter and camp out in the winter. And this was on the road. Why we did
it in the winter is because in the daytime you can survive. Okay, this is I guess a box.
This is Elijah's one on the land up there, you're mostly on the ocean, but on the land
they have these little cabins. And they're awesome. They're about a quarter the size
of this room. There's usually about 30 inowits in it warming up. That's the ventilation in
that square. And they're all smoking cigarettes. And yeah, no, it's awesome. And there's a
giant bucket in the corner of the room. And that's where the refuge goes, which is pretty
exciting the first time you're in that. So you're basically suffocating and smelling
urine. And everybody's eating. Oh, and usually in the room, there's in the corner of the
room is a caribou, raw. And they're taking chunks and going, come on, join us. And so
you eat the raw caribou. It's awful. Actually, caribou is not that bad raw. Seal is one awful
thing to eat. And by the way, you know, all that seal beating and stuff, the inowits never
did that. That was the Canadians, the French Canadian, the Quebecois were killing them
and getting on TV and like abusing seals. You know, it's kill them, eat them and make
clothes out of them. By the way, that's caribou clothing on the ground there. So anyway,
that's Elijah's cabin. Oh, this is me. This is like what I learned recently. I wrote an
article about this. I've noticed over like the last 30 years, I take the same picture
all over the world. It's the same picture. So this to me and this to me, and this to
me, all the same shy. But this is up there. And this is down there. And this is near
my house. So but I don't even know why I'm attracted to these boxes, but I am. I'll
say something else here, which maybe it's a good time to talk about it. Can anybody
see in the little right there that ship? Okay, so when I was in art school, I used to get
these little things in my pictures and say to the teacher, it's really cool. This thing
happens to be in my picture. This is like an extra thing. I was really lucky. And after
about a semester, she said to me, you know, if it keeps happening, it's not luck. You
may not be aware of it's not luck. Now, obviously, and the reason I'm saying this a lot of times
we have our pictures, we go, I got lucky, I got something cool here. If it keeps happening,
it's not luck. You're doing something. And I always think about it in this picture because
I did, you know, I'm looking at this thing, trying to balance it with the sky and the
whole thing. And then that thing was there. So to me, that's luck. And I don't even know
if you care that that's there, but it matters to me. If it was cut in half, I wouldn't have
used the picture. There was half a shed. Although maybe I should get rid of it. That's half
a chair, but I'd like the ship. So that's good. This is actually the same. This is the
first time I saw the no kites thing when there was no clouds. This is near the no kites thing.
So I don't even know why that's sitting there, actually. Okay, so at a certain point in my
life, I had decided I got married. I married an editor from the agency that rep me who
later became a shrink. So go figure. It's not going to do it me. But then we had these
kids and taking pictures of kids was always really weird to me. I didn't get married until
I was 32 and had kids in my 30s. And it was kids were these alien beings to me. I never
really photographed them. I didn't understand their deal. They always seemed strange. I
didn't relate to them. I don't know if I relate to them now, but now I start photographing
because that my own. And it's like a built in subject. So you always have somebody to
take a picture of. So this is a place we have up in Maine. And this is my son bouncing on
a rock in the lake from our deck. Now, what's weird about this is I like this picture. This
is one of my favorite pictures. Actually, it sells one of the most of my pictures and
people seem to like it. I can tell from your reaction you all like it. But the point of
the picture is I actually somebody emailed me and said it's a horrible picture. Is that
kid drowning? And I went, what? Like, who ever thought of that? Like I'm letting my child
to drown in a photo. Yeah, well, he's back there. There's proof. But this is the thing
about having my kids with me. I think I started my kid thing too early on this thing. That's
the basketball hoop that fell down. But I actually found out later, people knock them
over before storms. I didn't live in the suburb. I lived in the suburbs as little. Then we
lived in the city and other places. I came out back out to the suburbs. The people didn't
implant them in the ground would lay them down and I never knew why. I thought they're
blowing down. They do it before storms. It doesn't go flying. Okay, this is one of my
favorite pictures. And again, my kids get credit because we're on a family vacation.
Somewhere in Florida. To me, this is this funny. It is. See, again, I don't see the
funny, but all right, I get the reaching in part. But to me, this is like the best I
can do in a photograph. It's not maybe my best photo, but to me, I've done everything I
ever wanted to do in a picture. There's something interesting in the middle. It's topless dancers
and they're closed. We know that that's the little scary door. There's no windows. There's
the phone number of where to go to the new clothes topless dancers. And there's the
big hand. I'm I look, I don't know if it's sexist. I'm sure it's operating that thing.
And he's reaching into the topless. Although who cares if it's a minimum. So anyway, and
it has a cloudy sky, which I was like, because it adds drama, you can burn it in. And it
has telephone wires, which I didn't know that I did all the time. But I learned, does
anybody know who Robert Crumb is? Yeah, okay, Robert Crumb, all those pictures, and he hates
them. And I realized, or he said he hates him, but he incorporates them. So maybe, you know,
need them. But I started doing it. I think it's Robert Crumb's influence as a child
when I, as a small boy was reading Zap comics way too young. Okay, these two pictures are
the same to me. Because I've like, all right, so the thing I talk about with photography,
it's called, it's called, like, I've thought of something. And now it is a thing, an entity
on its own. I like to talk about organizing chaos in a photograph. I think it's the number
one, number one thing in photographs has to be interesting. It's not interesting. I don't
care what you did, what tricks you pulled off, how you lit it, what if you don't care,
like, who cares? So picture has to be interesting. Give let's like, given that everything's interesting.
The most important thing then is how do you organize what's going on in the picture? How
do you organize the chaos? And I think there's an innate, I think people have it naturally
and people can learn it. But I think a lot of people see a certain way. I know I see
a certain way. And organizing the cast to me is the number one thing you do taking a photograph.
How do you do that inside this rectangle? There's a lot of stuff going on. And this is
one of the pictures where I think, wow, I really got a lot of stuff right here. Like
to me, it's like you got your black and white stripes here. You got your white bush, your
black bush, the white head, the black background, this straight, here's a black one, here's
a white one. Everything makes sense. There's nothing I wouldn't change. And when I have
students, I'll go like, does this not belong here? Is the picture better without this?
And like, if it is, your picture failed. Now, you can still keep it sometimes if you really
nailed something in another part of it. But that's sort of how I look at it. And in this
one, I think I got them all right, just like on this one. There's nothing I would change.
I wouldn't move it. I wouldn't redo it. And that's rare. You know, for me, anyway, good
photographers, maybe it's easy. But for me, it's rare. And when I do it, I get really
excited. Okay, this is me being sentimental with children. You know, I've had the same
printer since 1991. He's never asked me for one of my prints until I took this one, which
I don't know if it's an insult or a compliment, but it took 18 years from the asthma, I have
one. So I came home from shooting something else. And that little shape was my son playing
in the snow. And as I walked out of the car and walked up, I realized I literally was
walking like this, like, you know, like a monkey or something. And I saw my hands swing passes.
I said, Oh, this is a picture. And that's why you can't see my other arm because I had
to raise my camera and my camera and neck and what like that. So that's me and Theo.
I like this one. Okay, so I love beaches. I like traveling. But I like, I like beaches
a lot. I didn't know I liked them because I hated them as a kid, because I don't like
going in the water. But I think there's a lot to photograph on a beach. So and here's
actually another example, maybe when you don't see what you're doing, and it's intuitive,
like the striped pants and the striped thing behind it, there's no way I was aware of that.
All I was aware is to keep his head out of the picture. While he kept talking and the
other guys selling stuff saying take my picture too, because they thought they were going
to get something. Actually, he did. He got some money out of it. But you know, so that
to me and I like the hand coming around, I always like a random hand. Anytime you can
get a hand in a picture that's not attached to a person, I think that becomes very interesting.
All right, so that kid again in the crunchy stuff, not the one with the arms, the drowning
one, but the little one, we were in Italy two years ago. And he said, I want to picture
myself looking like a cool Italian kid. So this is me making him look like it's cool
Italian kid. A little Fellini ass, huh? But you know, it was good. I like the picture
enough not that it's my kid or not, but you know, cool Italian kid. All right, so here's
one. This is a picture I'm really proud of, because this is one where I had no idea what
the exposure was to make this guy silhouette. And I only had one chance to take a picture
because what he did was as soon as he took the picture, his head went back and the next
shot is his face lit, which isn't as good. So this one, whether you like the picture
or not, this is a technical one, we're proud of it. I think it's interesting anyway. But
that's the Chrysler building in New York, which is where my office at CBS is. And that's
one of the bank of elevators. So this is one where it looks so much better on the screen
really. But okay, here's the big kid doing the opposite of the hands. Now he's doing
the feet. And that's the next again, you bring your kids along, you can do stuff. So that's
him upside down boy. By the way, this is the kid who's on the cover of the pasta magazine,
this thing, not this picture. But he never likes his face being seen. Like we sort of
have this joke like he hides. And the only picture I've ever taken of him that I've kept
is the one showing his face on the cover of the magazine. So too bad. The only time I
ever looked at you. This is Max. So there's the same kid with Dan in Florida in 2002.
He's five and he says, I have a great idea for a photograph. I'm like, cool. He goes,
come with me. So I take my five year old, my, you know, now I have these new subjects I
can work with. I take no credit for this. He said, watch this. And he goes and goes like
this. Take my picture. It's on the cover of an album now. He's on the cover. He has this
album in his room now. So there you go. And he's actually an artist and he's a writer.
So who knew he's way beyond them. He figured it out. The best question I ever got about
this is I was being interviewed and they said, did you bring the mattress with you? I said,
yeah, what? Where am I going to find a mattress out there? Of course. I totally set it up.
And the beer I brought because why not? This was excellent. This is before this. All right.
So this is, this is, this is like another one where I'm really happy with it. It's old.
You know, it's like, if there's any way I could be related to like a musician who had
a hit song, this, I feel like one of my hit songs because I really like it. And it's maybe
one of the first times I really became aware of like the telephone wire thing. And I think
maybe, you know, when you're at them, this is, I think California, but I think when you're
doing something like this and there's no sky, something's got to be in there. And again,
the wires go out. I like that. I think it makes it interesting. Actually, you know what
else? Somebody said to me when they saw this, the woman working on the first book said,
was it like, you know, like a frat thing, you think like a fraternity was, and that never
crossed my mind that that was, I picture like, I don't even know what I picture, but I never
saw a fraternity there. This, I like this picture. I like, because there's an outlet
there that's painted over. That to me is interesting. But mostly I like this. I took this in Midland,
Texas. Now, if you know anything about Texas, you know Midland, Texas is where the bushes
might got really rich and with oil. And I sat there eating a really good steak stinking
at the place stunk of oil, because every part of, you know, when you drive through Midland,
you smell oil. And I'm thinking, these guys destroyed Midland and it ruining my steak.
That's what I thought about. I had a horrible meal, but I like that, you know, actually,
why is that butte there? They don't have that in Texas, do they? That's like Utah. No,
it's here, right? Here you have the flat mountains. Yeah. Okay. So I didn't like this picture.
My wife liked it. She said, print it. It's cool. It might be because we're together
in Turkey, driving down in the southern part of Turkey. And this guy's about this big,
this turtle. He's actually a tortoise. I call him a turtle, right? He's actually a tortoise.
We're in Turkey and he's this little guy and I ran out. I didn't want to run over him,
right? So I was going to take him, take him off the road, but I kind of did one of these
numbers. You know, we take the picture of him and then I took him and my wife has a picture
of me going like this, which is kind of cool. But yeah, and I didn't love this picture.
So there's a museum in Texas called the Museum of Fine Art in Houston. It's like a big deal.
And the woman who is the curator is Ann Tucker. And she's like a really big deal. And I got
a call one day from the gallery in Chicago that was representing me, Steven Data Gallery,
and the guy goes, Ann Tucker's here and she's buying your turtle picture. I said, wow, who's
Ann Tucker? And he goes, all right, I can't talk about that, but she wants to buy it because
she was there. And it was actually a limited edition portfolio. She goes, she just wants
this one. I said, give it to her. And he goes, no, she wants to pay for it. So she paid for
it. And then four years later, when my book was coming out, five years later, I said to
him, I want to get Ann Tucker to write the introduction. He goes, she's not going to
write the introduction. I said, no, no, I think I can do it. So going back and forth for like
six or seven months, I finally got her on the phone. And literally on the phone, she's
like, you know, I don't even know how. Oh, I made friends with her assistant. This is
the move in all things. Make friends with the person who the big shot trusts. I don't
care if it's the wife, the kid, whatever it is, be nice to their kids, you know, whatever
it is, get access to the big shot. So I got asked and she got on the phone and she even
said, I think something like, wow, I can't remember the girl, the woman's name was her
assistant, put you through to me. That's interesting. I said, well, here's the deal. I want you
to do this thing with my book. She goes, I don't really do that. And I said, but you
have my picture on your wall and your bedroom. And she goes, what's the picture? I said that
turtle. She goes, oh, you took that turtle and just tell me the story about what the
turtle meant to her and this whole thing. And I'm like thinking, oh, I didn't even,
I didn't want to print this. But okay, my wife made me do it. It really didn't have
anything to do with what she said. But I said, okay, yeah, right. And she goes, well, you
know, I don't really do this. I said, you know, I sent some other pictures and postcards
up that I had done as this promotion thing once. And I said, go look at them because
I think you'll want to write it. And she's like laughing going, who are you? But okay.
So she takes the picture, she gets back on the phone and she's laughing. She goes, oh,
this is good. Oh, I like this. All right, I'll do it. And I was like, wow, Ann Tucker, she's
like really famous. And she said she'd do it. She goes, but you have to pay me. I'm
like, oh, more budget problems, right? And she goes, you have to give the museum 10
pictures. I was like, you know what, I'll pay every museum if that's the cost I give you
a picture. So I was thrilled and she did it and she wrote the thing. And actually I didn't
put it in the front because she was one of the first people said, you know, you're really
funny, your pictures. And I thought, I don't want my book, people would think I'm like
Elliot Irwin, like it's funny pictures. Not that he's just that because he's like the
greatest photographer and probably my initial inspiration being photographer. But so I said,
can I put it in the back and make it the afterward instead of the forward? And she laughed and
goes, oh, everything I do becomes an afterward. I said, okay, that's how cool she's the coolest
woman. And I have other stories about her, but I'm not going to tell them. I'm going
to go on with other stuff. But Ann Wilkes Tucker is very important. And she doesn't
act like it. And she's a big deal. And anybody knows photography stuff knows she's a big
deal. And she couldn't be more regular. So that's okay, the Joe section. Yeah, the
Joe section. Okay, so this is Joe who goes to sleep when polar bears are going to tear
our faces off in the middle of the night. So Joe, the first time he came up, I'd been
up before he wanted to go with me. I said, you can come with me. So we went up there.
And within we land the Arctic is a whole scene to get there. First of all, it takes forever.
You got a hop skip and a jump. Should I call it? Oh, okay, you have to do this whole thing
to get up to the Arctic. It takes like 18 hours. It's just a real pain in the neck.
And we're going up there. And I told Joe to get all these clothes. And we got Patagonia
stuff and all the stuff. And we get there. And there's like these sort of, it's like
a settlement. And you land on the tarmac. And you walk and people come get you. And
you sit there and this is this prefab hotel thing. It's really for oil workers and maybe
an RCMP or maybe birdwatches big up there birdwatching. So we get in there. And it's
on a bay pond inlet. And there's a big iceberg. And it looks like it's right there. It's
probably five miles away. And Joe goes, I want to walk out to the iceberg. I said, dude,
it's 40 below, you're not walking. He goes, no, I'm going, I'm going. I said, all right,
well, I'm not because I've been here before and I'm not stupid. So I remember I sat in
the big room and I watched him walking and he goes to the end. He's walking. And then
he's kind of walking, walking. So I go back to the room and about an hour and a half later
he comes back and he's like this. He's like, that was horrible. I lost my glove. I don't
know where I dropped it. And it's really cold out there. And that thing was staying the same
size. It was really far away. And I said, you lost your glove? And he goes, yeah, I dropped
my glove. I said, you're going to need your glove. You know, we're going to be here for
a while. But of course, I brought three pairs of the gloves because I'm not Joe. So I gave
Joe another glove and we went out. But then he's kind of small and everything and the
Inuits gave him this fur outfit. So, you know, Patagonia is a great company, but 50 below
nothing works except caribou. And the reason caribou works and I was told this by the Inuits
is every, I don't even know if this is true. This might be a lie, but this is what I was
told. And I say it. Each hair is hollow. So your own body heat heats up these like little
insulated hairs and the hair. And I know if you sit and my wife can attest to her, she's
been in the Arctic. You sit on caribou in the Arctic, you get hot. It's like you start
to perspire. Even at like, you know, when you're inside an igloo or something, it's
like 30, 40 degrees. So it works. Anyway, this is Joe. And this is how you travel. And that's
more fur. And it's probably 50 below and we're being pulled across the ocean. That's the
land in the distance back there. And you're in this box called a kamutuk. And you're being
dragged either by dogs or a snowmobile. Dogs are better because snowmobiles pound exhausted
you. So it's like being in the little building I told you about earlier. You know, it's always
a form of nausea in the most beautiful place on earth. And you stay in that box for eight,
10 hours. And that's the deal. And that's Joe, you got out to take a picture. Okay, so this
is Joe's haircut. All right, we don't see Joe, but trust me, he's getting a haircut.
And Joe decided, actually, I decided I thought it was funny, we're in Death Valley. And there's
a little haircut place I said, I'll pay you 20 bucks to get your haircut here. He's like,
really? I said, yeah, I'll pay for the haircut and give you 20 bucks. Let's do it. So the
joke became whenever we went to some weird place, you'd get a haircut. So we're in
Istanbul. And he got like the worst haircut ever. So he's see the little door not that
kids watching him get his bad haircut. So this is Joe's haircut. Oh, this is Joe. This
is funny, the Joe story. So actually Joe was before the kids really, I used to travel with
Joe now I have the kids in my I don't need that him anymore. So here we are in a store
buying some food. And I'm in the back of the store and I see Joe looking really suspicious,
right? That's Joe, he's not stealing anything. Actually, Joe made a lot of money. We were
going to Istanbul, I'd already been he goes, we get to the airport. And we have coach tickets
and he goes, I can't go 12 hours in a coach ticket. I said, well, you're not sitting in
first class alone. He literally dropped $4,000 to put us both in first class. And it was
awesome, because I'd never done that before. So and we stayed at the Four Seasons because
Joe couldn't stay in a bad hotel. So that's Joe. That's Joe also. So we're up in the Arctic
and we wanted to eat the fish. So Joe went out with Elijah on the back of a snowmobile
to try to find some inwards that were fishing. And the way they fish up there is they look
for cracks, because the ice is probably 12 feet deep. So if they find a crack, they put
a hook in it. And they told me within a minute or so something bites it, you pull it out.
And that's Arctic char. And when you pull them out, they do this. And then they're frozen.
That's it. I think they get like 30 seconds. And that was maybe the best sushi I've ever
had. Because the belly of the I mean, it's a salmon, but it's an Arctic char. It's like
a slow I don't Arctic char. They sell it in the city in New York City. It's really expensive.
And that was it. And that's really good. And what's weird is, this was in the Chicago Tribune
at a show I was having. And somebody wrote about it being the sort of holy grail of photography.
And people seem to connect to it. But I just like it's Joe holding a fish. So it's called
Joe with fish. Okay, this is me on 67. He's like a New York City Joe. This is like New
York Joe. People in New York go, Oh, six of you. Because 67 is really long. And this
is it like out here somewhere. Or maybe one. Oh, there's mountains. I don't know where
it is. I think I make up where that is. Can you tell what that is? Because I don't know.
Oh, yeah, right. Actually, we're on Lex. But okay. Alright, so this is cool. So we went
to Costa Rica, more family stuff now that I have kids. And we got this really cool place
in the jungle. And that's our now it's a volcano. And I was literally we just got into this part
of Costa Rica. I'm laying in bed, looking at the book. I did one of these deals. Wow.
And I walked outside and I held it up because and then I found out later, it's never not
covered with clouds. Like I had the moment where this thing wasn't covered with clouds.
And you know what? Costa Rica is amazing. The people are great. The food's great. It's
fascinating. There's my it's just an amazing place. But we're like next to a nuclear power
plant that was about to blow up. I don't think that that's we'd be sitting there in here.
And the whole hotel would shake and you go really would stay in here. So I don't know
that I wasn't relieved to leave. Alright, so this is animals in Colorado. And one of
the reasons is here, somebody told me this looks like a diorama in the museum of natural
history. So I never thought of that. My mother-in-law and she has nice pants. And a photographer,
if you know this. Oh, this is I sometimes shoot I shoot with like all the time, but
I use a Hasselblad too. And so I have to find things that go like this in the house of blood.
So you guys see this isn't weird to you guys out here. Everything looks like this in New
York. This is like what are all these mailboxes? Where's the house? You know, you go to Europe.
This is a big deal out here. It's just looks like the neighborhood. This is I don't remember
where this was, but it's an ostrich form. And I stood there. I can't tell you I'm waiting
for this thing to pick my face. But I wanted to look right. And this is actually one of
the I was nervous doing this. But I like it. This one I think is funny, by the way. Oh,
yeah, this is Costa Rica on the road to something we were going somewhere. And that was the cow
tushy. It's called a tushy when you Jewish. And that's the cows. Alright, so this is the
place up in Maine. And this is mostly for my kids who think it's really funny that underwear
is up drawing. And by the way, we have like an outhouse and no electricity. Everything's
run by propane. So this is, you know, this is my Walker Evans kind of stuff. Alright,
so this one I don't see. Oh, I run Vatican in this. Oh, shit, I wasn't supposed to write
that. Okay. So this is you're supposed to go. What are they looking at? So there's a,
I think it's a Caravaggio or Raphael up by a window in the Vatican, you're forced to stare
at the sun to see this thing. So I walk in the room, they're all doing this. I like it.
That one might be funny too. I'll take funny on that one. That's Peruv. Which is where
Heidi Fleiss lives, actually. If anybody knows who she is, she's the star of, so maybe, there
you go, Heidi Fleiss. Something I learned later, by the way. This is Southern Turkey.
And again, I didn't like this picture. I think my wife made me print this. And then when I
printed it, I think I liked it. But to me, the irony in this, this is actually one of
my favorite pictures, is that the kids wearing a snorkel in water, you can't see it. But
people always think it's snow because of the Arctic stuff. This is, you know, like salt
baths. This is new. This is, there's a magazine sitting here that had a little story about
me and they illustrated with this. And that's, I don't say what this is. But again, there's
the wires and all the stuff. And so we have a neighbor who has plastic palm trees in front
of their house. And I never figured it out. But this is like a dusting of snow and it
seemed even funnier to me. So again, maybe I am funny. I don't know. This was funny
to me. And they moved them. They changed them. They're not always the same palm trees. They
had put in different kinds of trees. Like the garage must be filled with this stuff.
So okay. So I play golf now because I moved to the suburbs and it was appropriate. So
I learned how to play golf as an adult. And I was, I'm decent. If you play golf, I got
down to about a 10. So, all right. You know, for a guy who's not a golfer. But I was up
in Scotland years ago and this is Royal Doornock. Like a golf course, I would like die to play
now. But at the time, and the iron, forget about the balls are possessive because they
have the comma. How is, how is this gate stopping anybody from stopping over the one foot piece
of stone? That's what I, it's like, okay, I don't have a key. I can't get in. This seems
to resonate with photographers. Photographers love this picture. I don't know why. The best
question I've ever got is, is that a window? Somebody said that to me. Is that a window?
All right. Does anybody think that looks like a window really? No, right? It's a window.
Is that weird? No, it's not a window. All right. So I used to, I was at a golf course
where my little guy takes lessons. And does anybody know why there's wolves out here?
Have I ever guessed? Okay. In Long Island, we have way too many geese and apparently
plastic mammals scare away geese. So they put these things out here. I don't believe
it scares away geese, but I thought they looked funny. And it was actually a different kind
of picture. The guy who prints from me said, you have to print this because you don't have
anything like a window thing like, it's a whole different kind of picture for you. So
I said, okay, so I print it. I like it. Oh, all right. So last summer, I decided I hadn't
been shooting anything. So I decided to start shooting more in the street, which I did when
I was little. Little. I mean in college, you know, little. You know, anything over 30
years ago. So I decided to shoot street. And the sort of great thing that happened was,
I started shooting last May or June. I got a whole bunch of good stuff. And the Curator
of the Museum of the City of New York saw me through Facebook, which is a great promotional
device for me, and said, we're doing a show on street shooting and we want to use it much
of your stuff. And then they sent out a call to everybody else. So I felt very special that
he came to me originally. And he put in four of my pictures, framed them really nice, gave
me my own wall. And the minute I got to the opening, he goes, you got to see what I did
for you, you know. And he's the greatest guy. His name is Sean Corcoran. He was at Eastman
House for years. Now he's at the Museum of the City of New York. And he gave me this
beautiful thing and he put it on the wall and it's like, you know, so, and this, I just
started doing it again recently. So for me, this is sort of, oh, this is an old, of course,
this is from the 90s. All right. So this is an old one. This is by my office in the city.
But there's a whole boy in there by the way. I saw him get out later. But when I walked
by him the first time, he was like a little boy in the suitcase. All right. I don't usually
admit this. I set this up. Okay. I don't set up my street shots, but my son actually
have a better one of it. He bought this mask. It's the Monopoly Man mask. So he's walking
down the street. Actually, it's not that set up. I said, stop. But basically, I said,
stop. And he stood there like this going, you're, you know, you're doing this again.
And then these two, this woman on the left logs me. I can tell you just can't wait to
see I'm taking a picture. But that's, that's on straight by NYU. Okay. So this is in Rome.
I had a problem when I went to Italy. Everything was beautiful. Nothing was ironic. Nothing
was weird. Everything was just awesome. It was just like beautiful. I used to live in
France and I regret that I lived in Paris. Now I wish I'd moved to Rome, but I moved
to Paris. French know that it's better in Italy anyway. But so on our way to the airport,
I asked if I could sit in the front seat on the outside. And on our way to the airport,
I saw this nun up the road and I'm like, Oh, I wonder if this is something. And I'm trying
to set my camera. It's really low light. And I'm thinking, I just have to expose for that,
that cloth and I might have a chance. And I really like it. My wife does not like this
one by the way. She thinks it's boring. Okay, this is recently. And somebody said that looks
like mom and daughter. So I just wanted to picture Angelina Jolie. Actually, a lot of
the street I do now, I don't look through the camera, but I kind of 99% of the time know
where it is. I know if people say that, but really it's true. I really do. But maybe I'm
lying. Who knows? Maybe I looked, I squatted down. Anyway, so this is a new one. This is
one of the ones that was in the show. And so cool that Time put this on their website
to promote the show. And to me, this is all about New York. This is the New York picture.
This still it's working down the street and nobody even sees it. She's on her phone. This
guy in the right is pissed about something. The guys can't bag. Nobody. I'm chasing this
guy down the street shooting. I'm with everybody. I'm shooting and like, nobody cares. First
of all, I'm running shooting and they don't see me. But that's the battle. Isn't that
New York? Oh, this is my so Oh, continue about Italy. There was no irony. So I had to figure
out a way to take pictures in Italy. And like the Vatican picture, I figured it was the end
of the trip that I started going, I'll just shoot like street particular, you know, pictures
again. So and by the way, I sold a lot with my book of this particular picture. I never
thought of this as a woman licking an ice cream cone. And I know what you connect. But
I swear it was a whole different thing. And then I heard later like, Oh, it's a woman
licking an ice cream. Of course, people like it. I'm like, really? And I do actually have
the picture of my house of wintergrants licking the ice cream cone from the cover when I'm
here. And yet it never I mean, I copied them, right? So too bad. This got a lot of reaction
on Facebook that people were angry. I took this picture. But again, I'm just holding
my camera and it's not edit. Well, you know what? Who knows? Oh, okay, this is me intentionally
being funny. It's the fake David, but you got his penis right there. And there's a guy
eating a sandwich down there and she's drinking. So to me, that was really funny. So there
you go. Oh, and he has my name. This is a picture I took recently at the end of last
year. I think this is this is one of my favorite pictures because there's so much going on.
We were talking about organizing the chaos. I saw this all coming. And again, she can't
look through the camera and get this. You got to just somehow get it. And like waiting
for that woman to run that kid over. And she lost her kid in the back or kids not there
anymore. And she kind of looks like the lady pushing this role like their cousins. And it
says watch children on the thing. To me, this is another one. And my favorite is a random
hand coming in on the right. So I feel I pulled it. Here's another one. Actually, I just,
I didn't even get a chance to print this. I scanned it because I thought it was so funny
that his face was like a lion face. You know, the guy's going to Capitol Grill for a really
good meal. And he's pissed off. Like, what do you want? You're going into this great
restaurant and you're angry. Okay, I like this one for a lot of reasons. So everybody
knows what the World Wrestling Federation or whatever it's called is. So this is the woman
who owns it. And she was running for the governor, senator from Connecticut. And this is Memorial
Day. Is that it? Labor Day? Tammy, which one is it? What's the one where they have the
parade? Labor Day or Memorial Day? Oh, Veterans Day. Neither of those. This is Veterans Day.
And she's come out to pump the flesh. And to me, it looks like she lost big time and
spent $40 million. And to me, it looks like she's done some surreal movie stuff. So that's
Linda McMahon. And these are kids running across the street while that was going on,
actually. I like this one. This could be in Europe. Okay, this is also in the show. And
this is on the steps of a church that is about to be a wedding. And I just ran, I knew, you
know, when you get that, I mean, there's photographers here, you know, when you know
something's going on, but you don't know what's going on, you feel like I got to be somewhere
near this. I always say, you know, you can't force a picture, but you can certainly give
yourself, put yourself in a position where it might happen. And I remember running up
the steps and almost killing myself going, this is something going on the way these people
are all, and I took a picture. I love this one. I don't know if you like it, but, and
I'm not even just the alfalfa part of his head either. This is for the people who remember
the little rascals, everybody over like, all right, so I'm in a parking lot at a mall.
And this woman is walking around with this baby. So I took her picture. I don't believe
it's a real baby, by the way. She's not fooling me. Oh, this is the end. And you know the
joke, at least I'm in show business. Does anybody know that joke? Okay, that's it. Theo
made this for me. And then he did that. Thank you. No, that was my beautiful, no, that was
the beauty of Rome. I think what was ironic was, I don't know if I have an answer, but
we were getting ice cream from the place. It was like right by our hotel. It was great.
And a group, I think they were French, actually. They're not even Italian. And they were eating
the ice cream. I think I saw the idea of her and the other ones like, I don't know. I don't
really know. Actually, the truth is, I know that I'm shooting something. I mean, I think
a lot of the others feel the way, especially in the street. I know I'm shooting something,
but really, I don't know. And even now, after 150 years of doing this, when the contact
sheets come back, I swear, it's so exciting when I get one. I just got one the other day.
And I'm like, Oh, my God, I did it again. It's half surprised. Like I don't have that
fear thing. I'm never going to get another picture. But I'm always surprised when I do.
So I guess there's a confidence in that. But it genuinely always is like a relief almost
that I got one that I like, because, you know, it can stop, right? I mean, Cardio Brisson
lost it. You know, he started painting bad paintings. Who knows? But I don't know if there's
any. Go ahead. Okay, so I shoot digitally digitally for work. I only shoot for myself.
But on this trip for the first time, I'm bringing Sony gave me a camera with his ice lens, one
of their little cameras. And I'm going to try to shoot color with it. So I do shoot color
sometimes with a little digital camera. Yeah, so the color, I still don't get the black
and white thing with digital. I need the green. It's, you know, dinosaur kind of mindset.
I don't care. And I like the price. Look, I actually think, you know, Aline asked me
an interesting question. She said, What are the three best and worst things about photography
today? I think digital photography is one of those things. It's great. But it also sucks
because certain thing happens when you take a picture digitally, I think you take a picture,
you have expectations, you see it, it's not your expectations, you deleted. I think waiting
three weeks, any expectation I had is now gone. And something that maybe I got wrong
can be right. And I think people lose a lot of stuff digitally because they're like, Oh,
this is what I wanted. This is what I want. But you don't have that choice of film. It's
going to come. I found pictures that I took in the 90s now that I'm scanning stuff to
put it on Facebook that I go, Wow, how did I miss this? And if it was digital, I know
I wouldn't have it. So I think digital is an issue. I think if you can see what you did
right away, I get it with Polaroid SX 70. It was fun. We loved it. But that was never,
I don't think it's the way to take pictures. I think you needed to let I think two or three
weeks really helps. Anybody? That's it. So I really said everything, right? There's nothing.
What could they do? Yeah, I don't crop. And you know, it's weird. Who asked, Oh, you just
sit like, you know, a link, Smith really did a favor for me the other day. She interviewed
me and she got me to, you know, the more you're interviewed by people, the more you can think
about what you're doing. I think it's actually a good process. I don't like it on the radio
because then you hear yourself and that's a nightmare. But especially when they chop
it up and make I sound weird enough, I don't need to be on the radio. But you start thinking
about what you do. And I've had students privately now for a while, and they crop and we crop
as a learning process. I think, Well, they'll take a picture and I'll go, You know what?
This is what I think you were looking at and crop it down and they go, Oh, man. And I see
them getting better through that process. But I think at this point in my life, I have
one picture in one of my books that's cropped because there was an issue with the corner
of it got damaged and we put a frame around it and it's crap. But I think now if I miss
one, so what? I have a bunch. It's like I have money in the bank in some weird way that
I don't need to do that. And I can't learn anymore. I mean, I can learn, but I'm not
going to learn cropping my pictures, what I meant to do. I can see what I screwed about.
And that's fine. I have pictures that are good that I won't keep because they don't fit
with the other ones, which is kind of a weird thing that I think one day maybe. But then
of course the truth is once I'm dead, nobody cares anyway. And you know, you know what
it's like. So but I mean, I have pictures I like that I don't print because they don't
fit in with the rest. And I don't know what to do with them, you know, which is some of
my fear about shooting color now, like, do I got to start this again? Then I need like
50 of them. You know, the original plan when I was in art school with a couple of my friends
was if we get one good picture every year, when we're 50, we'll have a book. And logically
it makes sense, you know, like, and I said that was the plan. But I got the first book
before that. And I don't mean to sound conceited, but I get enough of them now that if I wanted
I can make another book and it's sort of cool. So that thing sort of went out the window,
but I still believe that like, they got to be 100% you're behind them. Like I said, the
ricks are before either on the bus or you're off the bus. If I have any doubts about a
picture, it doesn't make sense to me. I don't want it. I can't, you know, it's just not
worth it anymore at this point. Next to you guys can't nobody else is talking. Oh wait,
she goes next.
Okay, so the first book came out and it was a disaster. They shipped 300 to museum curators.
That was great. They we did a limited edition gallery owner, who's a great guy said, don't
pick a good picture. Don't pick one of your best pictures that does well. Pick something
sort of not that great. And then you'll do that as an addition. And it was the stupidest
thing I saw like 10 of them. And I have 50 of them. And it's because I didn't go with
my own instinct, which is do it yourself, do it your way. So what I did was for the
next book, I got literally the same people. He had nothing to do with it. I think I wasn't
even in the gallery anymore at that point. I don't sell a lot of pictures. I'm not like
what you want. You need a big but I'm not what makes a lot of money in dollars. So I
wanted my own. I said, I think I can pull this off. I'll get the same people. I'll do
it the same way and I'll make a limited edition. I'll sell it before the book comes out. And
I did a limited edition with the Prince $250 with the book and photograph. And literally
as soon as my cousin had me go on Facebook, she said, this is a good way to market yourself
2008 or whatever it was. I sold 37 the first like week. And I already had like all this
money. I'm like, this is easy. Is this easy? And I literally and then fortuitously I was
in a sushi restaurant with some friends. One was from LA and New York and we're like idiots.
And there were these other people there and I felt badly that we're yelling and stuff.
I said, let us pay for your meal. We've been jerks. And she goes, she was German. She goes,
what do you do? And blah, blah, blah. And turned out she was on the on the board of the
was the place called the National Arts Club. And she said, come to our place and talk about
your photography or whatever. I'm like, really? And she goes, Oh, no, I she said, what do
you do? I said, photographer, she's a singer. And I emailed her and she ended up like to
we say, she goes, I love your work. Come speak. And I said, we don't have a book coming out
of the year or nine months. Let's do that. So I did this pre sale thing, raised a bunch
of money, had this book signing went crazy on Facebook. I did a trick back then you can't
do now. I started friending everybody who liked leaf read later, Gary Winogrand. I later
went I started friending them like crazy. You can't do that now. Now they're like, somehow
it's different. And I got like 1000 people and I focused on New York tri-state area because
I wanted to put my book signing. And so we did the thing I arranged it, we're gonna have
this thing. And they said, I know I got scared. I don't want to say there's very famous photographer
did a book signing at this place. And my friend said to me, you know, I went to like 14 people
there. Oh, he's famous. I mean, really, like household name kind of famous. I was like,
I'm screwed. There's no way anybody's coming to my thing. We got over 100 people there.
And I think I did five grand that night there. So between the pre thing and that books, I
was like, who needs a publisher? This is ridiculous. I learned how to do this. And on the first
book, I went on press with the guy who's the expert. And so now I go and press with Joe,
my friend Joe, because he's actually that's what he does. And the last two books I did
myself and they were both in the black before they were out. Because you know what, just
there's ways to do it. You don't have to give a publisher $25,000 to make your book anymore.
It's not necessary. I mean, that's my own belief. I have a lot of opinions about that. But you
got to be involved. And it takes a lot out of you. You know, it's a project because it's
personal. Everything's very personal with the diary. And you got it. And you're the only
one who cares. Really, let's be honest, some guy impressed does not care what your book
looks like. The publisher, I don't care what they say, they don't care. They care about
getting their investment back, which is nothing because they make you pay for everything.
But so that's the deal. That's why I did it myself. Did you want to ask something? Yeah.
You forgot. Well, good. That means I'm compelling. Anybody else? That's it. Well, thanks. Cut
for coming. I like that I filled the house. This is really good. Thank you. Thank you.
