I sang that song for more than 60 years, a song of praise to Joseph Smith, the prophet
of the Restoration and founder of the LDS church.
The church I served as a bishop for five years.
I knew the church was true.
I was a faithful Latter-day Saint.
My life has been built on certain truths, but wishing doesn't change the truth.
Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth will make you free.
When I finally learned the truth about the real history and doctrines of Mormonism, I
realized that I was following the gospel of Joseph Smith and not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I have come to learn that many others have made a similar journey out of the bondage
of religion and into an authentic relationship with Jesus.
And that's what this show is all about.
Courageous people who want to share their story, hoping that you, the viewer, will discover
the same new life in Jesus.
So if you're a Latter-day Saint who is struggling with questions or seeking a genuine encounter
with the Savior, we invite you to join us tonight.
We have a joyful message that we want to share with you.
Welcome to another episode of the X Mormon Files.
I'm your host, Bishop Pearl, and I appreciate you spending some time with us.
I have a guest today whose story is somewhat similar to mine, and it's very fascinating.
I think you'll enjoy it.
It's Jason Unruh, and I appreciate you coming, and I'm sure they'll see your name on the
screen, but it's an unusual name.
What's the background of that?
I'm told it's German, and basically means, um, unquiet or uneasy, and I just tell people
to remember me as unruly, so it makes a lot of sense.
Well, we're going to find out that you've made some changes in your life here, haven't
we?
Yeah.
Or won't we?
So where were you born?
In California.
Okay, and that's where you grew up, was it?
Yep.
I lived there until I went and served a mission in Paraguay.
Now, you weren't a LDS originally, though.
No.
Your family?
What were they?
Um...
Just kind of...
Kind of there, huh?
No.
Okay.
So you didn't have a particular...
No, really?
Growing up...
Yeah, religion wasn't something we did as a family.
There was a bit of pressure from my paternal grandmother to perform that in some way, but
there was a ton of pushback from us on of my dad, especially, and he just kind of let
us choose our own path in that regard.
So at some point, you run into some LDS friends and they kind of discuss the church with you,
so tell us about that.
Yeah.
They were my best buds in high school.
I kind of ran in a couple of different crowds, one that was very party heavy, and these other
guys were my Mormon buddies, where they were surfers like I was, and they had a lot of
fun and didn't go do crazy stuff.
So my lead-in into Mormonism really was out in Northern California waiting for waves to
come in.
I just mentioned, hey, this Joseph Smith of the Book of Mormon, it was actually, it was
really cool.
I had no background in anything, and so everything they were saying just was wild and cool.
Interesting.
Yeah.
And these were my bros, these were my really good buddies.
Probably four or five, and then that group grew to where I was just solely hanging out
with them, and then suddenly there's a couple of missionaries talking to me.
And they brought the missionaries in to talk, and so eventually get baptized.
Yeah.
After, I think I was that investigator, I think I waited quite longer than they wanted
until one of them cracked open the, well, you know, the best gift you can give a missionary
is a baptism.
Oh, no.
Okay, well.
Well, here's a gift.
You read the Book of Mormon by the way.
You know I had.
You'd gone to church, I guess.
Of course, tons.
Yeah, I was doing that pretty regularly, and you know, I loved it.
Yeah.
It was awesome.
I loved it.
And then you decided to go on a mission.
Yeah.
Just soon after.
Yeah, a year.
And you got called to Paraguay.
Paraguay.
How did that go?
I loved it.
Yeah.
It was fantastic.
Yeah.
And you feel like you had a good testimony of the gospel?
I mean, obviously you were new into it, but you really felt like Joseph Smith was
a prophet?
I did.
The Book of Mormon?
True.
I really did, yeah.
And I remember when I was in the missionary training center kind of feeling like I was
behind the curve.
Because you were at a recent concert?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there was that.
But jumping into, you know, the mission in Paraguay, it was just, it was fun.
It was great.
It was, you know, you know, serving people, and it just all pushed the buttons that I
wanted pushed.
It was just really fantastic.
And years later, as I left and made it quasi-public, one of my mission buddies said, hey, you
know, but don't you remember the mission?
I said, yeah.
The mission was fantastic.
He said, didn't we have fun?
I said, yes, we did.
But that was the question he asked me.
Didn't we have fun?
Didn't we have fun?
It was an interesting question.
Yeah.
And he's a guy, you know, I love and respect him.
But that was just a weird question to ask, given what I had divulged, you know, hey.
I'm probably at fault doing this always, because I have done it a number of times.
It's kind of a leading question here, because it took me a few years later looking back on
my mission realizing that it was all about the church, it never was about Jesus.
Did you feel that?
I didn't feel it when I was there.
No, no.
No, no.
You don't feel that.
I mean, you wouldn't even think of that.
No.
I mean, you're, but in hindsight, I always sensed, okay, I'm really pushing the Book of Mormon.
Families are forever.
Yep.
The Plan of Salvation, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith.
Well, Joseph Smith, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was the organization.
Never about Jesus.
Yeah.
Very little.
Well, I mean, he was spoken of, and I get where that kind of gets in some folks' way.
Well, you know, we talk of Jesus, he's in the name of our church, and I get that.
But this is a religious thing we're doing, and it's, you're lining up all these half-twos
and to-dos to perform for the church, really.
Yeah.
I mean, you look at the hoops, you got to jump through to go to the temple, they are
going to go to heaven, and that's all just stuff, you know.
Another interesting thing that happens while you're on your mission is that your mom and
a sister get converted to the church.
Right.
Woo-hoo.
Yeah.
Oh, so stoked.
Your buddies and you, I'm sure, all contributed to getting them, but then something happened
as you came home.
What happened?
Oh, well, by the time I got home, they were inactive.
And you were.
I was so, I was so bummed out because, again, they had become part of my eternal family
and now, guess what, they're gone.
And of course, then there's this shame part of it.
Well, I didn't, somebody didn't do something right or I didn't do something right or I,
my testimony wasn't strong enough and, yeah, bummed me out.
And honestly, I never really spent time to ask why, I just kind of quietly was bummed
about it.
Now you were, you ended up getting married in the temple.
I did.
Bountiful temple.
Yeah.
I found a good LDS girl to marry.
Yes.
Met her on her mission.
On her mission?
Yes, I did.
Oh, she was on her return mission.
Yeah.
Okay.
And so you're married now for many years.
21 years, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then.
She's very patient.
And four children.
I understand four children.
Yeah.
Well, what happens along the way here?
Oh.
You're active.
Callings, elders, corn, gospel doctrine, teacher.
Yeah.
Well, here's the thing.
Our life was designed around this.
We had purposely, you know, since this was where the truth was encapsulated.
We were, I'm all in, she's all in.
We raise our kids on purpose all in and it just was where truth was.
And so I can't, looking back, it's like I couldn't imagine anything was wrong there.
But around 2000, I'm going to guess here, 2006 or seven, maybe sooner, I would go to
church and those things that I had spoken of before that were true, like I know Joseph
Smith's a prophet.
I know the church is true.
I know whatever prophet is the prophet.
And those were things I knew, you know, I felt them, I, you know, there was a motion
behind that.
And so suddenly I'm sitting in church and somebody else is saying those things.
I get this big bonk or this clunk inside me.
Like no, Joseph Smith's a prophet.
It was like, gut, no.
Wow.
Yeah.
And what do you do with that?
I know.
So are you listening, thinking, Well, I'm looking around going, is this a joke?
I mean, what, because it was, it was not that it was audible, it wasn't, but it was this
profound moment of wisdom.
And it was, had you had other concerns about the church?
Never ever.
Never.
Nope.
I, with my belief, it was, you know, because I knew about the old temple ceremony and it
was, I explained away, okay, great.
So they changed that.
That's cool.
Blacks in the priesthood, you know, no big deal.
There was, it was, if they said, you know, we just, we're not supposed to know these
things right now.
Oh.
I accepted that too.
Yeah, that's cool.
I get that.
Right.
All of a sudden.
All of a sudden.
All of a sudden.
Did this over a period of time?
Yeah.
It was 2006, 2007, 2008.
I mean, it just kept happening.
I'd go to church.
This is the true church bonk.
And I am just starting to stack these things up that should be true for me, that are not
true.
And I know it.
I can't explain it away.
I'm starting to talk to my wife about it.
I am agonizing.
I'm freaking out because if this isn't true, then I don't know what is, and well, this
is my eternal family.
So I'm not, you know, am I going to hell?
I don't know what's going on.
What did your wife say?
My wife's awesome.
Yeah.
My wife is leaps and bounds cooler and better than me.
And when this was going on, I am terrified and I am like thinking, we're done.
I'm losing my family.
It is a scary thought.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm still wells up this stuff.
And so I remember just kind of being a real big jerk to her about it.
And I was going to head it off at the pass and I really tried to push her away.
I really tried to push her out of the church, out of the marriage.
Like I was going to drop her before she dropped me because I know the church says that, you
know, you just, you kick the guy to the curb that's losing his testimony.
I've ruined it, rock on the pond that shouldn't have been thrown.
So, but she kept coming back with love and you're my guy and I chose you and I was like,
what a sweetie.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that kept happening.
And I finally decided around somewhere around 2010, I can't, I can't go and I can't
fake it.
I can't pretend.
And I remember I had borne my testimony a few months before I left and I couldn't say
that I knew anything about the church was true and I even said that I can't say this,
but
Oh, in your testimony?
I did.
Wow.
But it was to raise an antenna or two.
It really, I don't know that it did because remember the bishop who was my buddy came
up and he's like, that was just awesome because what I said was, I don't know.
But I do believe in Jesus and I just, I can't get past that.
And it was wrecking me because Jesus was there.
Jesus was supposedly this was his church, right?
So it just wasn't working.
And so I finally around 2010, I'm like, I can't do it.
Honey, Lisha, I'm leaving and she stood by me the entire time and she kept going and
I found myself trying to find work on Sundays to just avoid.
Just an excuse to not go to church.
Yeah.
So I did.
And then
Well, at some point the bishop calls you in or?
Oh, yeah.
They wanted to renew my temple recommend.
Yeah.
Tell us about that.
So that was actually before I left and calls me in one of my buddies was the first counselor
and I go and it's like, eh, you know, I don't want that.
I don't want the temple recommend.
What?
You know, I got the kind of I pop out thing and it was just, no, I don't, I don't want
it.
I don't believe in it.
And I don't know why I don't believe in it.
I just know I don't believe in it.
And you really didn't.
At this point, you really didn't know all the negative stuff.
I knew none of the possible doctrine or history or anything.
I either knew none of it or the stuff that I did know.
Like I'd mentioned.
Later.
Well, yeah.
And it was like, okay, we'll put that in the compartment for later because I don't need
to know.
You don't need to deal with it, right?
No.
So it was all pretty clean.
I mean, I left the church with, I wasn't mad at it.
I wasn't angry at it.
In fact, for convenience sake, I agonized.
I wished I could still be Mormon so that it would be easy on my kids, it would be easy
on my wife.
It would be easy on me and it just, it couldn't happen.
I couldn't will it to happen.
Now, at some point you go into your office.
Yeah.
What's your advice about?
Well, this, this happened.
My wife, I started becoming one of my go to things is when I'm scared, I get angry.
And she's like, you're becoming way too angry.
You need to find God.
She's like, I don't care if you're Mormon Christian.
You could be Buddhist.
You could be Catholic.
I don't care.
You're driving me crazy.
Go find God.
And so I'm like, great, I'm going to be Buddhist because that's cool.
I'm just going to do that.
And so I'm reading Buddhism's like great.
And at one point she says, why don't you go with your buddy to that church he goes to,
which was K2.
And I'm like, okay, I'll go to the Christian church, whatever.
That's going to be a freak show because I hear they got a band and you know, it's going
to be totally irreverent and lame.
And I go there and there's this gallon of guitar and acoustic and she's just praising
Jesus in song and I just lose it.
Just lose it.
It's like, we're praying to God through song.
I'm praying to God through song.
Wait a minute.
I've just been trying to tell myself I'm atheist and now I'm praying to what and I'm
just.
That's what happened to me too.
It was crazy.
So I go back the next week and I'm, you know, just going crazy again.
So I go home that after that second week and I kneel down, I look God.
I, I believe in you.
I do.
I get it.
I'm crying constantly now and I'm feeling you, but I don't get this.
I don't get the Jesus.
I don't get the, everything how it all fits together.
I just don't get it.
So you're going to have to help me like I can't do this.
I am terrified and happy and I don't get it and I just need you.
So it was this answer of something like in my head.
It was just like, I've got you, I love you right where you are.
I know you're a mess.
I know you're angry.
I know you're scared.
I know you're just trying to blow everything up.
So it goes away.
I got you.
And I gave my left to Chris right there as I knelt on my office floor and I go out into
the living room and it was kind of like this awesome and oh, great moment like, oh, I kind
of know what this means.
You know?
So I go out and I said something like, hey, Alicia, well, I'm Christian, it turns out.
And she's like, what?
She's crying.
And so that started this journey of just, for lack of a better word, I guess, letting
Jesus walk with me because I can just stiff arm and I'm like crazy and realizing that
he's got me A, B, he loves me where I'm at and it was nothing doctrinal for me.
It was just relational.
It was this pure, I love you moment and I just wanted to be with him.
I wanted to dig into the word.
I wanted to go to church.
I wanted to just be with him.
What a tremendous feeling.
What freedom.
Did you feel that?
Yeah.
That is a good word, actually.
Yeah.
Had you understood grace as a Mormon?
No.
I mean, the word, it was said often enough.
But this idea that this thing I don't deserve, I'm getting because Jesus loves me.
I know I deserve it way less than everybody and I know how messed up I am.
Did you really even understand that sacrifice on the cross?
No.
I know.
I didn't.
No.
I didn't get it.
It was kind of a, it was like a, it was like the story that I was supposed to relate
to, the story I was supposed to understand deeply and I didn't get it until I got it
in the office of, again, it was information on this end or I'm in a relationship with
the God of the universe here and it was overwhelming.
Yeah.
I mean, had the Bible, has the Bible changed for you?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you carried it around as a missionary.
Sure.
Yeah.
It weighted down my bag, but you know, it was the Book of Mormon we were slinging.
Sure.
But tremendously, I mean, I look back and go, how could I have looked at this, these words
as these imperfect things or these things that needed to be revised and edited by some
guy?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I remember my Bible study or scripture study, which included Book of Mormon and who
knows what else, but it was, it was a chore.
Yeah.
I didn't want it to be a chore, but it always was a chore, like trying to carve out time
to read the scriptures, you know, and for some reason, at some point, after this moment
in the office, it was, it's like, this is going to sound dumb, but Jesus is in there
and I need, and it's like, it was like, I got the analogy of food before I heard it,
and it was so dumb to me.
And in this moment, I'm like, I get that analogy now because this is, I want this moment, I
want this time with Jesus, I want to hear what he says, and I want to be with him.
Yeah.
And that was totally different than what I'd experienced before.
Now, your wife has been supportive through all this.
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit more about her.
Oh, man.
And we'd love to hear her story sometime if she's going to care to share that.
Yeah.
Well, she's amazing.
And we did the two church thing for a year or two.
You'd go with her, did you?
No, I wouldn't.
She took the kids.
Yeah.
She would, she would take the kids to the Mormon church and then once a month, and then it
became twice a month, and then it became three times a month, they would come.
With you.
Yeah.
Because she wanted to do church with me.
And what did she think of the service as a, maybe not a...
As Christian service?
Well, yeah.
The Christian service is just kind of a visitor, as it were.
You know what?
She actually really enjoyed it.
Did she sense that praising?
She did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Culturally though, she was still really tight, and so, you know, I left the Mormon church
pretty clean about a year, year and a half into my Christianity, though, it became me
wanting to kind of beat her out of Mormonism with the word.
Yeah, we gave a little overzealous.
I became that guy, that Christian, and you know, her heels just dug in.
We had fights, and she was the one showing the grace.
She was the one that kept coming out and just saying, you know, I love you, and I am like
after receiving this gift, I'm still this, and we come this guy, you know, we hear those
stories and I was like, I...
Unruly.
Unruly.
Yeah.
Unruly.
Unruly.
Yeah.
So, all right.
So, my buddy's at church been saying, you know, this is for Jesus, not for you, man.
This is not, this is not your deal.
It's not even on your shoulders.
Nope.
This is not your job, bro.
And I felt God saying that to me, too, and I finally, it's funny that I gave my life
to him, but there's still these little compartments, well, I'm going to take that, I'm going to
keep that.
I can do this.
And I'm going to keep that.
And my wife, my son that's struggling, I'm going to keep those because I'm a better parent
than you got.
Apparently, that's what I thought.
So, my wife, I just have this moment with Jesus and I'm just like, I don't, she's yours.
You love her more than me, she's yours.
And whatever this journey looks like, I'm out, I'm out of trying to force it to be a
certain way and she is yours.
And then this movement started happening with her that was not what I would have designed.
And it was super perfect.
And then there was this moment where we had had an argument again, my fault.
And she goes out and has this wrestle with God.
She's taken this, I don't even know what you call it, this is a tool that cuts weeds and
she was cutting alfalfa with it and she's like, God, you know, this is not going to
go well and I'm going to go and I'm going to go to this Christian church all the time
and I'm just going to go all in here.
And there's other things that happen in this conversation.
But when she called me, she says, I'm taking my garments off.
I don't even put this.
What?
And I try to talk her out of it.
Like, well, don't do that for me.
She's like, no, no, this is where God has me.
I'm, I'm here and it's been awesome journey like that ever since.
And we have been, you know, doing this crazy walk, this messy, awesome, horrible, awesome
walk.
It is a challenge.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
Christianity can be challenging, but it's so, so delightful, so joyful.
Yeah.
And when I surrender and realize that the God, again, the God of the universe has me.
And why do I keep trying to take it back?
Yeah.
Well, so it's been awesome.
And you know, my wife and I've been married 21 years, despite my best efforts when I left
the church to push her away.
And you know, we walked together in Christ.
How's mom?
How's your mom and sister?
They're great.
You know, they've always, they've been supportive all the way through.
Yeah.
And when they left, you know, I don't really know the story, but they leaned more into Christianity.
Pretty right off the bat.
Oh, did they?
Especially my sister.
And so I remember talking to her husband and he, he'd always have a bit of an eye roll
about Mormonism and I would defend it staunchly.
And we had this conversation and he goes, yeah, really wasn't a great thing.
Was it?
Well, I mean, I thought it was.
Well, what do you think?
I guess some basic questions, but what do you think the LDS most misunderstand about Christians?
Well, grace, obviously.
Grace for sure, yeah.
We can get into a lot of the doctrines of who God is in his nature, but the idea that
there is this gift out there.
And when I read the Bible, it seems pretty obvious.
It does.
It does.
You didn't cover those scriptures as a missionary, I'll bet.
The ones that were obvious about grace and works and the law and that.
It was more of the do-do-do stuff.
But the idea that there is a God who came and died and loves me, loves you and he wants
us to walk with him.
He wants us to accept what he's done.
And there's this thing called, let me say, salvation.
And that's it.
It's this relationship that I have with God and not this thing where I gotta, oh man,
you know, I gotta make sure I don't drink that or do this or say that.
And I gotta make sure I go do this teaching and go to the temple and work, work, work,
work, work.
It's been a joy for freedom for me.
Not all that burden.
My yoke is easy.
My burden is light.
Your family then is, you go to church together and you see.
We do.
And that's been, it's been a little hard because it's, it, we lost a little bit of
currency with our kids because it was, here's the truth.
And now, and they were a little older too, some of them.
Yeah.
I mean, I have a 16 year old daughter, well, an 18 year old son is in college, 16 year
old daughter, 14 year old daughter, 12 year old daughter.
And they're now in a spot where they're comfortable the last six, eight months, you know, going
to Christian church and they identify as Christian or they identify as, I don't know about God.
I don't know.
Figuring it out.
It's like, you know what?
How's it going to work that out?
I think the fascinating thing is that you were saying that it really wasn't ever doctrinal
or even the part of the history of the church.
I guess you've learned more about that now.
Yeah.
And it kind of bugs me now.
Yeah.
Things that you didn't know about history.
And I would use that.
That's the hammer.
I'd beat my, yeah, with that doctrine of, you know, this prophet to this and this is
what the Book of Mormon and blah, blah, blah, and it was just, it was a mess.
I just think it's interesting God has worked in your life so amazingly to bring you along
and have you come to understand, well, our time's up, actually, and any last 10 second
thing you want to say to family or friends?
You know, it just, what I've been saying is that there is a God, his name is Jesus.
And he loves us.
And he loves us.
Yeah.
He loves us so much.
What a wonderful story.
I appreciate your time.
Thanks.
See you next time on the X-Mormon Files.
Bye.
