Thank you very much.
So today I wanted to do something which is a bit career oriented.
So I'm a scientist, I've been working in international research for the best part of 30 years and
I just wanted to give you some feeling for the journey that got from a student to an
international researcher and as an example of the kind of career path that students can
follow and along the way illustrate some of the things that I've done and lead up to basically
this exciting new big project called the SKA which is hopefully going to revolutionize
science and technology in Australia.
So it's a number of points I want to make along the way in this journey, my particular,
my personal sort of take on being a scientist and how to be a scientist.
I think this always and particularly in my case does build upon passions and builds upon
interest that kids get in school.
That's where it all starts, that's where it started for me and I talk to a lot of kids
and I know that's where it starts for them too.
So I'll go and talk about some of these bullets during the talk, building a passion from school,
how you choose a university and choose a degree, honours degrees and gap years, PhDs, why would
you do one, how do you build a global career in science and last but not least is there
a way back home.
A lot of us Australians end up all over the world and a lot of us don't come home and
it's a great thing to be able to come home like I just did recently.
So those are some of the things I want to talk about during the talk today and try to
give some guidance I guess for some of the young people that might be involved.
So I did grow from a passion in school.
I had a great science teacher in about year seven that gave me the passion for science
in general but it took me quite a while to sort of hone down my interest in astronomy.
It wasn't until I did a physics degree at the University of Wollongong and then finally
at the end of that physics degree and honours degree in the fourth year where I had an exposure
to quite a lot of astronomers and so they got me really switched on to science and astronomy
in particular.
And why astronomy?
Because astronomy is one of those fertile grounds, it's an amazing area to do research
because there's so much to be done.
It's not like some of the other huge sciences internationally like physics and chemistry
and biology where there's thousands, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people working.
In astronomy and astrophysics you've got the whole universe to play with and there are
an enormous number of exciting challenges.
Astronomy internationally is not a big subject, you can know all your peers and friends and
so it's a very, very exciting place to do research work.
So I decided to do research work in astronomy, I left University of Wollongong after an honours
degree in astronomy and went to the Australian National University in Canberra to Mount
Stromler Observatory where I did my PhD thesis, 78 to 82.
Mount Stromler is a beautiful place in the hills outside of Canberra, unfortunately it
was burnt pretty much to the ground in 2003 by an enormous forest fire but there's a few
remains left but it was a great place to do research work.
And when you choose a place to do research and to become a research scientist you should
always choose a place which is world class, I mean there's nothing better for your career
than to be taught by the very best people and for those very best people to talk about
you and your work when they go overseas to conferences.
So being in an excellent, internationally excellent place is absolutely ideal for your
career as a researcher.
So I went to Mount Stromler, I was a bit of a theoretical kind of computational kind
of guy from the early days, I wasn't somebody who stuck my eyeball to a telescope and looked
through it all night, I was really somebody who loved to play with computers and so I
used that sort of passion in computers and mathematics to understand the dynamics, the
motions of galaxies, in particular what happens when galaxies come very close together and
actually collide, it's a pretty amazing process and so in the bottom of this little slide
you can see a fairly messed up looking picture of two galaxies which are in the process of
collision and this little movie now is a computer simulation of what happens when two galaxies
collide and all these tails and bridges and wisps and filaments are all made during the
collisions of galaxies.
So this is the kind of work I did for my thesis work, as I said thesis and research work is
not just about using telescopes, it's about getting out and doing things in mathematics
and computers, particularly these days where computers are an important part of doing research.
So I did my PhD, it took four years and then almost the day after I finished I was sort
of kicked out and basically said go overseas and it gets some experience because it's very
important as a place like Australia if you're doing an international research career you
do get out and meet the rest of the world, you get out and expose yourself to the vast
majority of the researchers who are in fact of course overseas.
So I went from Canberra to California, to Los Angeles and California where I took up
a what's called a postdoctoral position after your doctor, a three year position at the
California Institute of Technology or Caltech, it's a pretty famous place and an incredibly
good place to go because again the quality of the research stuff there is pretty impressive.
So just to underscore how impressive, well before I get onto how impressive it is, Caltech
is the home of Mount Polymer, the 200 inch telescope, used to be the world's biggest
telescope, very famous people like Alan Sandage and Erwin Hubble all worked at, after the
Hubble Space Telescope name, all worked at Caltech so it's a very famous place for science
in general.
So just to underscore how impressive the stuff is there, it's a traditional when you
come as a new staff member at Caltech to give a talk, give a talk about your work.
So I was a young postdoc and about the second week I was at Caltech I gave one of these
talk and in the front row of my talk, I remember this, probably to the day I die, we're sitting
the three people in the bottom of this picture, which is Murray Gilman, Richard Feynman and
Uli Fowler, all three of which are Nobel Prize winners.
So my audience consisted I think of seven Nobel Prize winners, three of which were in
the front row.
So as a young Australian giving his first talk overseas it was a little bit daunting
but I survived and went on and really enjoyed my time at Caltech and it's again the quality
of the people you work with, the quality of your peers and the quality of the place.
It's very important in your career trajectory as you go forward.
After I left there, I spent quite a lot of time working at Los Alamos National Laboratories,
so Los Alamos is a very famous place.
It's the place where the Atomic Bomb, the Manhattan Project was, but these days it's
a huge national laboratory in the United States and it's got an enormous repository of some
of the world's largest computer systems.
So remember, I'm a bit of a computer geek, I love using computers to solve problems and
so you go to where the best computers and the biggest computers are and so here are some
of these monster-cray computers and various other things which were at the time and as
we're talking about now, sort of 20 years ago, were the world's fastest computers.
So while these computers weren't doing bad behind the fence black things, we used to
use them to do astronomy in front of the fence and so one of the things I got involved with
here in this little animation is the actual evolution of the entire universe.
So the universe is a big, a dynamical system, galaxies moving around, objects moving around.
And it actually is possible to simulate to evolve enormous pieces of the universe inside
of a computer using mathematics and so this is the kind of research work I was able to
do overseas because I was one of the very blessed places in the world again for computers.
I was fortunate enough after I left there to go to work for the Hubble Space Telescope
Institute, so I worked for NASA.
So I worked for NASA for about five years on the Hubble project, so this was before
the Hubble project, the Hubble telescope was launched into space, in fact about two days
after I was there, the Challenger disaster occurred and so the whole project was put
on delay, but I was there in Baltimore at the University, Johns Hopkins University
in Baltimore and why did I go there?
Because again, it was one of the very best places in the world where that time the Hubble
telescope was the biggest and best project in the world for optical astronomy.
It had an enormous promise to solve some fundamental problems in astronomy and so the entire world
were flooding into Baltimore, into the Space Telescope Science Institute and spending time
there and doing research there.
So again, you were at the crossroads of the world pretty much and so for a young research
person, a great time to actually get involved and see all the researchers, but also to
see how big, a big project like this really works.
NASA built Hubble Space Telescope, about six billion US dollars worth of investment even
in the early 1980s and so it's again a huge monster science project and I think was probably
at this point I got interested in these big science projects as well that as a scientist
these days, you have to also understand that as well as doing research, you also have to
be a builder and a contributor to the science.
You have to be able to participate in the construction, development and then operation
of some of these very large facilities because they require everybody working together to
make them all happen.
So I worked at Hubble and really enjoyed it.
After I left, Hubble, I came back to Australia for a short time, went back to Mount Stromlo
and joined in a pretty exciting project which was a joint Australian American project looking
for this mysterious stuff called dark matter.
So dark matter is a bit of an embarrassment.
We know the universe around us, it's about 100 percent full of matter of course, but
only about 4 percent of that matter is actually glowing, it makes glows like stars, it glows
in gas and radio.
So this 96 percent of the universe is mysteriously hidden from us and it's in the form of two
things, one called dark matter and one called dark energy.
So they're things we have little idea what they are and where they came from.
We know they're there because we can sense the effect that this dark matter has on other
objects.
And so we decided to do an experiment in Australia to actually look for this dark matter, to
actually look for signs of this dark objects in the universe that could be this dark matter.
So we took an old telescope, a really incredible telescope, this thing called the Great Melbourne
Telescope.
So this old telescope was built in 1868 in Dublin and Ireland and bought by the Victorian
government from proceeds from the Goldfields, shipped back to Australia, world's largest
telescope sitting in the Melbourne Victor, in the Botanical Gardens.
And it was a photographic telescope right at the very time when basically all the technologies
were changing underneath it, so it never became very productive.
So it fell into rust and ruin, sat in a garage for about 40 or 50 years, eventually bought
up to Mount Stromlo and we dusted off the dust throughout the cobwebs and the spiders
and made it into a modern telescope and did this project with it, which was great.
So an old telescope, a new release of life.
And so we did this thing called the Macho Project and lo and behold, we did find the
first evidence for dark matter in the universe and that made the front cover of Nature magazine
in about 1991.
So these kinds of experiments can be done in astronomy, you can make these major contributions
to the field by getting together international groups of people, dedicated research in a
particular topic.
Again, it was a matter of going to the right place at the right time.
That Macho Project was one of the very first projects in astronomy where there was a very
reasonably large amount of data involved.
What we took was images of the sky, digital images of the sky every night and basically
compared them night by night by night and looked for signs of this dark matter basically
passing in front of and blocking out the light of distant stars.
It required, for those days, a relatively enormous amount of data, about five gigabytes
of data per night, which in those days was an enormous amount.
And so that experience in building a project, handling large amounts of data, and getting
a good scientific result, I got a tap on the shoulder from an organization based in Munich,
in Germany, for me to go to work for them.
So they were called the European Southern Observatory.
They're the world's largest astronomical organization.
There are 13 European countries all put money together and fund the creation of telescopes
in Chile, mostly Chile is where the observing sites for ESO are.
So it's a big astronomical research organization.
They were thinking at that time, this is about 1995, of building the world's largest telescope
called the Very Large Telescope, which we're not very good with names, but it's called
the Very Large Telescope, sorry, it's called the Very Large Telescope.
And it was going to be constructed in Chile and I was asked to come on board at ESO and
help design and build this facility and in fact put together the whole sort of science
and data system for the telescope.
So that began a 12 year adventure and learning lots of new skills.
I was a scientist at that point, I was a research scientist.
I'd never been involved hands on way, some of these enormous, this is a one billion
euro project, I'd never been involved, but here was a chance to learn something new.
It's a chance to learn how to manage people, manage projects, manage budgets, deliver on
time, deliver various things, skills that were probably a little bit foreign to being
a scientist and being a researcher, but I'm convinced that these days to be a good scientist,
to be a good researcher, you have to understand those things as well.
You cannot possibly succeed in research and science these days without understanding how
to design a project, how to run a project, how to manage people and how to manage budgets.
That's just part of the way we do science.
The old days of the white lab coat and the test tubes, I think it's pretty much gone
for many subjects and I think for astronomy is one of them.
So I went to ESO in 1995 and started to work on the construction of the very large telescope.
This telescope was actually, here it is finished, it was finished in 2001 with the first light
of the all four telescopes.
There's four big telescopes, each telescope has a big mirror in it.
Those mirrors are eight meters across, so huge mirrors.
Each one of those mirrors costs about 20 million euros.
Every telescope's about 450 tons of optics and steel moving around and it's an incredible
machine for doing science.
It's four individual telescopes on a mountaintop in Chile in a high Atacama desert, but they
can be combined together and also form impressive pictures in a combined sort of way.
So this is one of the pictures that was formed when the telescopes were combined together.
This is actually a movie that was made of the motions of stars in the middle of our own
Milky Way galaxy.
So over a course of many, many years, this telescope had such an incredible accuracy
of images to get actually follow the motions of stars around the center of the galaxy.
Now, the interesting thing, that star that's just gone around the center of the galaxy,
there's nothing there where it went around, okay?
This star is going around something, but the something isn't there.
And so this is the first evidence that was collected for the existence of a black hole.
So we believe there's a black hole in the middle of our own Milky Way galaxy, weighs
about a million times the mass of our sun, and here's probably some of the best evidence
we have of the existence of this rather amazing object.
That is possible because we spent a billion euros because 600 people lived on a mountaintop
for four or five years and constructed this amazing machine for doing science.
So great science comes from great machines, and great machines require lots and lots of
work, people from all over the world working together.
If you're going to be a researcher, you have to understand this and you have to be able
to participate in international science.
2006, I decided it was probably time to come back to Australia.
I've been away for about 25 years and finding a way back is part of the story.
Australia doesn't have high mountains, it doesn't have the Andes, it doesn't have these
sorts of things.
So there's not the opportunity in Australia to build big telescopes, build big observatories,
and hence Australia uses other people's stuff pretty much all the time.
And it was absolutely amazing to me that in 2006, I discovered that there was a real chance
of probably the world's biggest astronomical facility actually coming to Australia.
So there was a chance indeed that this thing called the Square Kilometer Array would come
to Western Australia.
And so I packed my bags in my family and headed to Western Australia and was lucky enough
to get a position at the University of Western Australia as a Premier's Fellow to begin building
up a brand new research group in Western Australia in anticipation of this project coming, but
also to help Australia win this project because at the moment we are in a race.
There are two places in the world where we could put this telescope, one in the western
part of Western Australia, the other in Southern Africa.
Both those groups of people are competing at the moment very, very hard on the international
stage to win the location of this project.
We hope to basically have that decision in about the beginning of next year, about the
beginning of 2012.
The SKA is an amazing machine, I won't say very much about it, but basically this is
a history of the universe.
The top of the diagram is the Big Bang, the bottom of the diagram is today.
There's a big piece in the middle here which is the unknown, it's where we have never
been with a telescope before.
The SKA is designed to penetrate the unknown, it's designed to penetrate right back into
that particular part of the history of the universe.
And so it's a machine which is 10 times, 10,000 times more capable than machines we
have today, 10,000 times which is a pretty impressive figure.
This is an impression, a video of what that telescope might look like, it's not one big
telescope, a kilometer by kilometer, it's 3,000 individual radio dishes, spread out
over 3,000 kilometers.
So it's a machine for doing science which is 3,000 kilometers across, the radio signals
from the universe get into these dishes, they're connected together by fiber optics and produce
the data we need to probe the distant universe.
As I said, 10,000 times more capable than anything we have today.
In the past, every time we've built a telescope it's going to be about five times better than
its predecessor.
This telescope is 10,000 times better than its predecessor and so that's impressive.
So the square kilometer array, it's not square, it's not a kilometer of metal but it's these
amazing dishes spread out in the desert and hopefully the desert are Western Australia.
It's also probably the world's biggest ICT project as well and involves some incredible
computers, that's why my passion for computers comes back into this.
The world's largest computer is going to be the computer we need to run this particular
telescope.
We will put it in Western Australia because it's very radio quiet, this is a very sensitive
radio receiver and so we don't want people around, people make radio noise and so we
don't want them around and so hopefully in 2020 this is what the desert of Western Australia
is going to look like.
It's going to be the home to the world's largest scientific facility.
I talked before about always choosing strength.
This is a little plot that shows how strong Australia is in some of the key science areas.
This is ecology and the environment, geosciences, immunology and astronomy and space sciences.
These are some of the key scientific strengths of Australia.
You can see in astronomy and space science Australia actually outperforms the United
States, the European Union and China in terms of the impact of the papers we produce.
We are a very strong research community in astronomy and because of the SKA we're going
to become stronger.
So just going back to the end points here.
I had a passion in school, I had a great teacher who taught me stuff, that passion stayed
with me all my life and I'm sure that's true today as it was 30 years ago.
Choose the best university you can, choose a place which has excellent people because
through excellent people you become excellent.
Honest degrees, I think an honest degree.
Once you go to an honest degree the fourth year of your undergraduate and a PhD, these
are commitments to a career in research.
I don't like gap years so if you like gap years I don't like gap years.
PhDs, why?
PhD is a big commitment, it's very easy to float out of an honest degree into a PhD.
It's a huge part of your life, it's four years when you're early 20s.
You've got to be prepared for it mentally and physically.
So don't take it lightly if you choose that particular career path.
Build a global career, don't be afraid to travel, don't be afraid to take risks, learn
new skills because astronomy is a global science.
Don't sit on your bottom at home, go and learn new things, learn new skills because they're
all part of being a scientist.
And finally Waze back home, we've got a fantastic Waze back home now.
If we can win this SKA project, Australia will be box seat front and centre, one of
the world's great research nations.
Great, thank you very much for that Peter.
We do have some questions coming in now so I'll put those to you.
So one of the first questions we've had is what do you believe will be the future of
space based telescopes such as Hubble that you were talking about now that the NASA shuttle
fleet are about to be retired?
Yeah, I think there is a future in the sense that there is now a new telescope with a James
Webb Space Telescope, it's the successor to Hubble, it'll be launched in about three
or four years time.
But it'll be completely hands off telescope, it'll be a telescope which is launched up
into a very much, much higher orbit than Hubble was.
It's not meant to be serviced, it's not meant to be touched.
Once it's out there, it's out there, it's free flying, it's autonomous and I think
that's the way telescopes in space are going to go.
We cannot afford to go up there and service them all the time.
We have a question from Shane, what is the best guess for what dark matter actually is?
So the Marcher project we did was looking for dark matter which was big chunky stuff
like rocks and pieces of moons and things which were big, right?
We didn't find this stuff, if it was there we would have found it if it was in that form.
The best guess for dark matter these days is subatomic level material, subatomic particles
basically subatomic particles that were created in the Big Bang so the only way you're going
to find them is with a particle physics detector and in fact the Large Hadron Collide, excuse
me, in Geneva might in fact give us some insights into dark matter.
I had a question actually, when you showed that slide about your experiment looking at
dark matter and the star going around the black hole, did the star ever disappear into
the black hole?
Is that something we've ever seen?
We see it indirectly so that star is in a stable orbit so basically that star basically
can go around and around as long as it likes.
We have seen some cases where we know there's a black hole, we've seen flashes of light
and we think those flashes of light actually occur when stars actually drop into the black
hole, right?
So we've seen indirect evidence of this.
We have another question here from Phil.
Is it correct that the SETI project has lost funding and what are your thoughts on this?
The SETI project has not lost funding.
What happened was that there's a telescope that SETI was using called the Allen Telescope
Array.
That telescope has lost funding and so that's not available to SETI anymore.
But SETI uses telescopes all over the world to do search for extraterrestrial intelligence
and so the project continues.
It's just that was probably its best telescope but they haven't got access to that anymore.
They'll probably look for access to other telescopes and in fact SETI has been one of
the very most, very active founding members of the SKA consortium and the SKA is probably
the best SETI telescope ever designed.
Another question here, your comment on the PhD that if you're doing one then you should
be focused on research.
However, there are not enough research jobs for the numbers doing PhDs.
Would you like to comment on this?
Sure.
I think people maybe in the past have floated as I said into PhDs without thinking too much
about it and the system has absorbed them quite rapidly.
I think people are a little bit more, they need to be more circumspect.
I think research career is a very demanding career.
There isn't very many jobs.
We know that particularly in subject like astronomy.
So you've got to be, I think the people who are offering PhDs need to think about that.
I think the people who are taking on PhDs need to think about that.
I do think, I agree, I think there's probably been a few too many go into the system but
having said that, projects like SKA are going to gobble up PhDs at a great rate.
So there is a bright future.
Are there boundaries to the size of the universe and if so, how can that be?
If I had a dollar, a dollar for every time that question comes up.
Look the universe, it's hard to describe it in terms of a physical analogy, right?
A lot of people describe the universe like a beach ball.
So there's a beach ball, it's round, it has a surface and so if you're on the air, on
the beach ball, you can wander any way you like, you never find an edge but the beach
ball is finite in size and the universe has some of those attributes.
It doesn't look like a beach ball of course but the universe has some attributes which
are the same.
It doesn't have physical boundaries that we think of like a beach ball, doesn't have
physical boundaries but there's an horizon in the universe, there's a place in the universe
where we can't see beyond.
It's basically because light, the universe is a particular age, it's about 13.7 billion
years and so light travels a certain distance in 13.7 billion years and so anything that
happened to be further away than 13.7 billion light years, we would never see it.
So there's an horizon in the universe.
So the boundaries and the places where you can and cannot see in the universe tend to
be set by the speed of light.
That's really the biggest limiter if you like for the universe.
We have another question here.
Will the SKA see different wavelengths of light usually seen by current radio telescopes?
SKA is a radio telescope so it does see radio waves but it sees a very broad spectrum of
radio waves all the way from what we would call the FM bands down around about 100 megahertz
like your favourite FM stations all the way up into the tens of gigahertz so there's a
very big range from FM frequencies to mobile phone frequencies to television frequencies
and all the way up.
So it's a very, very broad range of frequencies because it actually uses different technologies
for those different frequencies.
It's not just you saw a lot of dishes today, there's also other kinds of receivers which
receive very low frequencies as well.
I have a question here about the skills that you talked about that scientists need in terms
of project management and people management and communication skills.
Are they skills that you think are being covered in science degrees or is that something
that, how can that be addressed that skill?
I think that's a very good question.
I think in my opinion the answer is no.
These are not being covered and in fact in Western Australia, University of Western Australia
and at ICRA we're trying to do exactly this to incorporate into our undergraduate program
some of these courses, Project Management 101.
People have to understand how projects work, what the vocabulary is if nothing else, work
breakdown structures and deliverables and Gantt charts and all these sort of things.
They are part of the language of doing science and so we have to teach our young researchers,
we have to teach our undergraduates how to at least understand these concepts because
they're not going to get them at the end of the day so yes I completely agree with the
question that we should have in our basic training, basic tool kit for our young researchers
some of these skills.
Another question here, when and how is it decided whether Australia will be home for
the SKA?
So there is an international body, an international board for the SKA so the SKA is an international
effort so at the moment there are ten countries who have formed this international board that
has basically the money to run the project if you like.
That board will be the board which decides upon the location of the SKA early in 2012
about February of 2012 so right now what's happening is that there's an international
process running where the two nations are submitting to that board all the data that
describes their site and all the things of the fiber optics and the power and the cost
of labour and all the other things that you would need to know if you were going to choose
a place to build the SKA so Australia and New Zealand who are collaborating and the
southern African countries who are collaborating are both submitting these documents to this
international process, they'll go in in September this year, there's then a long adjudication
process and hopefully in February, early February next year we will have a decision by this
international council if you like of the SKA.
Excellent.
Does anyone else have any further questions online there?
Has the technology of optical telescopes reached an end of life and radio telescopes are the
future?
No, in fact it's interesting at the very same time as we're thinking about the SKA,
the world is also thinking about the next generation of optical telescopes so the telescopes
you saw, the VLT, they're probably the last of their kind because the mirrors, the big
mirror that's in the VLT is a single monolithic piece of optics.
That's about as big as you can build single monolithic pieces of optics because of the
physical strength if you like of the material.
If you're going to go to a bigger telescope you have to actually build a segmented mirror
so the mirror is made of like segments, little hexagons that are all cemented together to
make a big structure so the world's now thinking about building a telescope based upon this
segmented mirror technology that's going to be 42 metres in diameter, it's called the
European Extremely Large Telescope, not VLT but ELT, it's going to be built again in
Chile, that project is in the final phases of decision for funding, again this is a billion
euro project and hopefully starts construction in 2015 but that's the future of optical astronomy
is also going forward as well.
Why are New Zealand collaborating and what's in it for them?
Well one of the interesting things about radio telescopes is the bigger they are the better
they are.
So if you've got dishes spread on the ground the further you spread those dishes apart
the higher the accuracy, the higher the resolution of the radio images that you can make.
So if we put dishes in Australia which is 3,000 kilometres across we get a certain resolution.
If we put a few dishes in New Zealand we get a 5,500 kilometre baseline, that's considerably
better resolution and so putting some array stations in New Zealand is an incredibly good
advantage for the SKA so the New Zealanders are very keen to participate.
Excellent.
Well I think we may have covered all of the questions that have come online, if anyone
has any further questions online please post them now.
Peter would there be any other points that you wanted to touch on today?
No I think as I said it's an exciting, it's an incredibly exciting time for Australia
in New Zealand at this time of decision of the SKA, we're looking at a game changer in
terms of our science and technology futures in this country, in terms of opportunities
as well.
Remember I said the SKA is an incredible ICT information communications technology project,
the world's largest computer system.
This telescope produces the same amount of data in a day, one day, that the whole planet
produces in a year.
So you can imagine what a challenge this is to computer technology around the world and
so the careers are not just in astronomy, the careers are in computer science, algorithms,
hardware, information systems, data transport, fibre optics, so it's not just astronomy.
Actually one final question, how many people do you think might end up with jobs on the
SKA project from anything from being a researcher involved to someone who's helping build the
telescope array?
The construction of a project like this will probably take several hundred people, maybe
five or six hundred people would be involved just in the building of it.
The operation of the telescope is probably two or three hundred people internationally,
it's spread out in various locations.
The international research community that's going to use it is probably about ten thousand
scientists, right?
So this is the sort of scale of the numbers we're talking about.
Excellent.
Okay, well I think that's all of the questions that have come through online.
I'd like to thank everyone online who's watched and taken part today and Peter I'd like to
thank you very much for taking part in our RIO's PD Plus session today.
My pleasure.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
