Alright, I am with the man, the myth, the legend, Tommy Barnett.
The myth. You are awesome and you are an inspiration, a mentor, and one of the greatest men of God.
Stephen, thank you so much. I watch you grow up in this church. I watch you come forward almost every week,
and you're just a boy and bring a little offering to God, and so God used you in such a great way
and grew up to be this wonderful man of God with this tremendous thing that you are doing now,
this organization for the glory of God. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Well, let's get started here. We're talking about the future of the church,
and when I say that, the future of the church, what's something that comes to your mind?
What does that stir in your spirit? I think, first of all, if you look at the future of the church,
you have to look, first of all, the way it looks like the future of this nation is going.
It seems to be going downhill. We see in our nation go downhill morally, financially,
in so many different ways. We see a decline. They tell us now that China will someday be a stronger
economy. I've never known that in my lifetime, but the Bible says that where sin abounds,
the grace of God much more bounds. I see the future church as a church that's dealing with problems
that nobody else can solve. For instance, diseases that are brought on by our unholy living,
for which there's no cure, and their last hope is the church. They come to the church hoping that
God will heal them. Psychological problems that the psychiatrists and psychologists have given up
on, but when they come to Christ, that solves that problem. In other words, I see the world has no
answers in the end, and the only place left that can come is the church, and the response of that
will be a New Testament church. The New Testament church, daily they were saved, and then daily
they were added to the church. And then the Bible says they were daily multiplied to the church,
so they went from one to addition to multiplication. I see the 21st, 22nd church. I see it going
to multiplication. For the Bible said in the last day, there'd be a great revival, and I see churches
in this country running 100,000. I see churches that could fill stadiums. Because of sin, the need
is going to be so great that the last stop is the church. Yeah, things are going to get worse,
but that's an hour. It's an hour where the church can step in and be the answer when the world has
no answer. You talked a little bit in there about challenges for the church. Yeah. Dive deeper into
that. What do you see as the greatest challenge for the church over the next decade? I think one
of the challenges of the church is getting too slick. And while I believe in organization,
matter of fact, when there was no organization in the church, I was a guy saying, let's plan,
let's pray, let's believe God, let's use things that will touch the heart of the people. It used
to be flannel boards to teach the kids. Now it's LED, but I take one of the biggest challenges of
the church is that we are trying to be just relevant when we should be revolutionary.
The early church was revolutionary. I believe it's wonderful to use other churches as examples,
but if we don't watch it, we can preach the same messages. We can use the same songs every church
in America, which is fine and well, but I think the church ought to be not just relevant, but
revolutionary. We ought to be on the cutting edge. We should be writing the songs. We should be the
church that are writing the pageants. We ought to have the biggest musicals in the world. Do it
better. Our schools ought to be better, for I believe the Christians can do everything better
than the world can do it. See, there's a phase the church goes through. Every great church is born.
They're born in confusion. When a church starts out and begins to grow, there's confusion. There's
actually chaos in the church. Growth is chaos. Numbers, we don't have room for them. We don't
know how to handle them. We're not organized. But you know, amongst chaos is where the miracles
take place. It seems like a church is in chaos. They need financial miracles and God supplies.
They need physical and mental miracles and God does it in that atmosphere. However,
if you stay in chaos, you'll be destroyed. There comes a time that you have to use from
chaos to control. But you can't have too much control because if the church is totally controlled,
then you've taken out the element of miracles and signs and wonders. So all a church has to be free
to let God bless and move. There has to be some kind of control, organization, so it will not
destroy itself. You specifically have traveled a lot. You have been all over this globe in your
50 plus years of ministry, and especially in the last three to five years you've been traveling a
bunch. You've seen the global church. So talk to us. What is the role of the global church? Then
how should the American church interact with its global counterparts? You know, this year alone,
I've been to 10 countries and held conferences all the way from the Hillsong Church, who
Brian calls me his pastor, all the way to last night I flew in from Indonesia.
And I've had an opportunity to, I'm on Dr. Cho's board. I've seen what God has done in
Seoul, Korea. So I have somewhat of a handle up on the church today. It used to be that America
literally was responsible for evangelizing the world. And I think that's why God blessed America
because we had the money and we taught our people and revival came to America. And so we went to
the world. We sent missionaries. We built Bible schools all over the world. And because of that,
many found Jesus Christ. Well, something's happened recently. As America has turned away
from God financially, we've gone downhill. Other countries like India have had a great revival.
Indonesia, one of the greatest revivals in the world, even China, every one of those countries are
prospering. Brazil is another man, an emerging country. It's prospering. And I recently asked
Joyce Meyer, her husband, why do you think that is? And he said something I thought was profound.
He said, as America has turned from the light, these countries are turning towards the light
and righteousness exalted the nation. But sin is a reproach under many people. So here's our role
in the global world today. We used to send missionaries and now the greatest churches in the world
are not in America. They're overseas. I just came from a church that six years ago, ran 1500.
Now they have a building that seats 15,000 people. They showed me a property they are just buying.
Now, notice they're building their aunt is six years old. They're going to build a church right
on the ocean, overlooking the ocean, that'll seat 100,000 people. You know what I did the whole time?
I listened to that man. He talked to me. He poured faith into me. He showed me the hospital that
was going up that he built, the orphanage that built, the radio station that he bought. He just
pumped vision in me. And that's where it's happening in the world today. You know, the dream
center that we have, that we're building in LA, you know, the biggest offerings I've received
for the dream center have not come from America. They have come from overseas. So we used to
evangelize them. Now they are setting the pattern of good works for America. It's important for us
to visit them, to listen to them, to let them lead now because God is doing a great thing
and they're hearing from God. You've been pastoring for a while now. You're over 30 years old.
But how has the church changed operationally since you started pastoring? That's a real
good question because in my early days, and I saw my dad and he mirrored it and I followed
it to him. The pastor's role was to hear from God, to get the vision from God. Like the building
that's in the background right here. We heard from God. We got the vision. We got a big dream,
a dream that was bigger than us. And then our role was to go to the church and to articulate the
vision. And then the church got behind the pastor and we marched towards the goal. That's the way
we built the churches in my generation. Today is completely different. Today, I believe the
leader still hears from God. He gets the vision that God has put upon his heart. But now churches
are built with teams. This new generation believes in community, small community of little teams
that put all their brain thrust together and they built it. I used to go to some of those
meetings. I met now and I thought, I could just answer those questions by myself. However, there
was a camaraderie. There was a passion. And then they divided up and they seemed to be able to do
the nitty gritty, the small things, the details. They were able to work out better. So my generation
was leader led and much of it today is team led. It's a challenge that I think many pastors,
everyone's so busy. There's so much to do. Being a pastor of a large church, small church, it doesn't
matter. You have a million things going on. So why doesn't the church collaborate? Is it because of
that? Or is there a way that the church can collaborate more effectively, even despite our
busyness and the amount of work that we have to do every day? Let me give you an example.
We recently read that in the city of Phoenix, we had 400 kidnappings last year. There's only one
city in the world that had more kidnappings and that was Mexico City. So we were almost like
the kidnapping capital of America and one of them in the world. So we realized something
needed to be done about the human trafficking problem. A group of pastors met together in this
city with a wonderful intent that we're going to solve this problem as we collaborate together.
And so they began to think about it, but I began to watch them and it seemed to me that was awfully
slow. So I said, you know what, we're going to do something about that. We have a dream center here
already in place. While we're going to cooperate with them, we just can't wait while these little
girls remain in traffic while we are waiting. We've always taken the attitude that we'll find
the need and we will learn how to do it while we are taking care of the need. So we began to work
on it. We became an authority on it. And today we have one of the largest human traffic networks
literally in the nation because we didn't wait. The danger is sometimes why pastors don't cooperate
more. A great church like this, if we see a need in our city, I'm sad to say, but it's easy for us
to get our church all together, to get the people on it, to raise money for it, instead of having
to go from one little group to another. And oftentimes it bugs down. Sadly to say a lot of
pastors, they're protecting their turf. And really that's not even their own fault. Sometimes it's
the layman that are the problem because they seem to run to every direction in the world. So the
pastor feels like he's got to protect his turf just a little bit. And he finds sometime it's easier
and he can do it better if he has a great church behind them instead of jumping through all the
hoops along the way. But the church can get together and should get together. We may not
all agree on everything doctrinally, but we can agree upon winning the loss, reaching the poor,
or rescue the dying, take care of needs. And in this age, we can do better collectively
in speaking out, especially on political issues, because one of my biggest fear about the church
today is that we are afraid we don't want to be politically incorrect. And through the years,
the church has always oftentimes been not politically correct. So today the church can
stand together together and say, we still believe that abortion is wrong. We still believe that
marriage is for one man and one woman. We can take a stand collectively together because there is
more strength in numbers. And if we would bind together in these times. And by the way, a lot
of different churches, some of them are real big in our city, some run 100. But you know what,
there's nothing wrong with that. Some of them are like small groups and they feel a need. Some people
do better in a big environment. So through the years as churches have split up, it's not all
necessary bad. They used to say, sometimes you have to divide to conquer. And sometimes, although
I don't like division, I like multiplication, it can be a blessing. Why do many churches cater to
the needy rather than to the intellect? Or are they doing it? We just don't know about it. Sure.
Well, the reason we do that is because that's what Jesus did. Jesus came
for the oppressed. He came for the hungry. And the Bible said it was the poor who received him
gladly. And when the intellectual crowd looked upon it, they were convinced it was real because
they saw the lame walk, the dumb talk, the blind see, the demonic set free. And they said, wow,
wow, we can't explain this. You know, some things you can't explain. When you stop and think, well,
where did the world begin? Now, where did that begin? And where did that, that can blow your
mind? But we do know this one thing. There is a supernatural power of God. People are touched.
They are healed. They are delivered from addictions. Their lives are changed by the power of God.
And I think, too, that the intellectuals have the same problems that the poor. They get sick.
They have needs financially. They go bankrupt. The stock market goes down. They have marriage
problems. The rich intellectual. They have children that are on drugs that they can't help,
just like everybody else. So I truly believe with all of our heart, you know,
you know, our church has been blessed. We have seen large gifts financially come in.
And when I first came here, I started reaching the poor. And I lost a lot of the so-called
intellectuals. But you know, and I lost some of the people that were considered larger givers.
But you know what happened? They were replaced by genuine multi-millionaire people
who gave millions of dollars over the period of years to the Church of Jesus Christ.
I truly believe that God will bless the people that go after the poor. An illustration I've
done, and that is, it allows running down the street one day, getting ready to run from Phoenix
to Los Angeles, to raise money, to finish the Dream Center. And I think most people know what
the Dream Center is. It's a huge 15-story building that reaches out to the poor and to the needy.
And as I ran through Skid Row, I saw people crying out on the streets. They'd been turned out by
the Social Department because there was no money to pay for them anymore. The government
had run out of money. And I saw the insane people in the state screaming out. I smelled human waste
on the street. As I ran through the city, I thought, how can we build a church here?
These people have no money. They have no character. The fathers have deserted them.
And the city is in anarchy. There are no jobs. And the Spirit of the Living God impressed upon
my heart. When I say God spoke to me, He does through strong impressions. And here's what it was.
If you'll reach people that nobody wants, I'll give you people that everybody wants.
Now as I look at our Dream Center congregation, I see the poorest of the poor that slept in boxes
on the street. But I see them sitting beside the beautiful people of LA. More movie stars come
to that church than any church in town. Wealthy people come now, sitting beside the poorest of
the poor, gang members, prostitutes, people of the street. And always remember, if you'll reach people
that nobody wants, I'll give you the intellectual. I will give you people that you intellectually
could have never touched, but I touch them by the good works that have been done among the poor.
You think of the church now based on your experience, based on your knowledge and
your network of people and your global experience as well. Where do you see this thing? What do you
say to pastors that are looking 30, 40, 50 years down the road? What do you say to them to encourage
them about what we're doing in trying to reach people for the cause of Jesus Christ?
Well, first of all, we're in the greatest business in the world, the God business. We have the greatest
cause in the world. We have what the world is looking for. We have the answers. I really believe
I have all of a heart and I believe that the problems of our nation could be solved with men
of God behind the pulpit because our churches will only be an expression of them. And I would
encourage them to see God every day, to hear from God, to stand up with the authority that they've
been given. All authority has been given in heaven and earth. We are God's representative.
Use all the ideas. Use the LED screen. Use technology. Use television. Advertise. The best
you possibly can. Jesus Day. They went from person to person. Now we have all the social media.
We have television. We have radio. We have the printed page. Use it all. Work as hard as you can.
Use things that the early preachers would have died to have had. Just think what Jonathan Edwards
could have done if he had more than just the horse, if he would have jets. Think of what Spurgeon
could have done if you had television to preach to the world. We have it all. But it's going to
start with the man of God who has a vision from God who's not afraid to proclaim it and always
wants to be politically cracked. The world is looking for somebody that's a two-fisted man of God.
He'll stand lovingly and boldly and preach the gospel. It's beautiful. I hope we get a lot of
those. I appreciate you. I appreciate your time. I thank you so much. Thank you so much, Steven. It's such an honor.
